From talexb at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 09:39:08 2008 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:39:08 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk lineup In-Reply-To: References: <8204a4fe0809241015i6c849b45uc9962af9fdf5d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <9C8C9DEF-6FA3-4AB0-AD8D-DC1B6F71405E@vilerichard.com> <669242CF-45BC-4F52-8050-21B344151469@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: > (with apologies to Ilia for sending it to him first instead of the list... > damn reply button) > > Side note from my Lightning talk. > > It came up at one point why when I was defining an attribute I did this: > > has 'x' => ( > is => 'rw', > isa => 'HashRef', > default => sub { +{} }, > ); > > In Moose, if you're defining a type with a default that is not a scalar, you > have to use an anonymous sub. But in all the Moose examples for hashrefs, > you see the "sub { +{} }". The good Abbot Beamish questioned me on this > peculiar plus sign and I guessed was because the Perl interpreter needed to > disambiguate the use of the braces ( a BLOCK or a HASHREF ). Hi Dave! Amazingly enough, I actually used this new-found piece of knowledge today, building an array of hashrefs for a call to a library that I cannot (yet) change: my @symbols = map { +{ 'key' => $_ } } @things; Proof once again that Perl is an unbelievably powerful language. I'm glad you used it, and I asked you about it. :) -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 10:31:21 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:31:21 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk lineup In-Reply-To: References: <8204a4fe0809241015i6c849b45uc9962af9fdf5d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <9C8C9DEF-6FA3-4AB0-AD8D-DC1B6F71405E@vilerichard.com> <669242CF-45BC-4F52-8050-21B344151469@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Alex Beamish wrote: > Amazingly enough, I actually used this new-found piece of knowledge > today, building an array of hashrefs for a call to a library that I > cannot (yet) change: > > my @symbols = map { +{ 'key' => $_ } } @things; > > Proof once again that Perl is an unbelievably powerful language. I'm > glad you used it, and I asked you about it. :) > I'm glad I used it too! Glad I can keep getting employment in Perl! I've always found these little things fun. There's apparently a whole thread of these little "Hidden Features of Perl" on StackOverflow right now: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/161872/hidden-features-of-perl Going back, when I was interviewing for my current job with Richard, he took me out on a technical interview before I got to meet the VP ('cause if I did, I found out when the VP chatted with me, it meant I was worth actually talking to). Anyhow, Richard asked me this question on the interview. Let's suppose you've got an OO module. Now, for some reason, you want an 'a' method that is really an alias for 'b'. Your assignment? Do this in the least number of characters possible without shifting the args off of @_. Now, I thought I was being smart with: sub a { $_[0]->b(@_[1..$#_]); } But I'd forgotten that I didn't need the ';' because it's the last statement in the block. Stupidly, I'd forgotten that invoking with -> just stuffed the invoking blessed ref into the arg list so I could have done this: sub a { b(@_) } But then Richard broke my head with: sub a { &b } My jaw literally hit the table. I'd also not know the & invocation style (without brackets) automatically passed @_ into the sub. I'd thought that & is soooo Perl 4 and beneath my notice. Whoops. Two characters. Two bloody characters to my 21. Got the job though. :) -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rdice at pobox.com Fri Oct 3 10:36:32 2008 From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:36:32 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk lineup In-Reply-To: References: <8204a4fe0809241015i6c849b45uc9962af9fdf5d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <9C8C9DEF-6FA3-4AB0-AD8D-DC1B6F71405E@vilerichard.com> <669242CF-45BC-4F52-8050-21B344151469@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5bef4baf0810031036g14e0ac6byc67a295b09adbe96@mail.gmail.com> > my @symbols = map { +{ 'key' => $_ } } @things; > I would have guessed that, in this situation... my @symbols = map { { key => $_ } } @things; ... would work too. I.e. the Perl compiler would be able to recognize the key => $value construct within { ... } and figured out that this was meant to be a hashref. Just to fuX0r with your minds, I'm like the following would work too... my @symbols = map { \(my %hash = ( key => $_ )) } @things; ... but proving (or disproving) this is left as an exercise to the reader. :-) Cheers, - Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rdice at pobox.com Fri Oct 3 10:39:16 2008 From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:39:16 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk lineup In-Reply-To: References: <8204a4fe0809241015i6c849b45uc9962af9fdf5d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <9C8C9DEF-6FA3-4AB0-AD8D-DC1B6F71405E@vilerichard.com> <669242CF-45BC-4F52-8050-21B344151469@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5bef4baf0810031039sf27fa7aj9aeb3ab93d171319@mail.gmail.com> > > But then Richard broke my head with: > > sub a { > &b > } > Jon Orwant schooled me with this one back in '97. > My jaw literally hit the table. I'd also not know the & invocation style > (without brackets) automatically passed @_ into the sub. I'd thought that & > is soooo Perl 4 and beneath my notice. Whoops. Two characters. Two bloody > characters to my 21. > Of course, '&' is necessary when defererencing a coderef, but the context is different I'll admit. > Got the job though. :) > Yeah, about that. We should talk... Cheers, - Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 11:20:42 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 14:20:42 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk lineup In-Reply-To: <5bef4baf0810031039sf27fa7aj9aeb3ab93d171319@mail.gmail.com> References: <8204a4fe0809241015i6c849b45uc9962af9fdf5d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <9C8C9DEF-6FA3-4AB0-AD8D-DC1B6F71405E@vilerichard.com> <669242CF-45BC-4F52-8050-21B344151469@gmail.com> <5bef4baf0810031039sf27fa7aj9aeb3ab93d171319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ... Dammit. On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Richard Dice wrote: > >> >> But then Richard broke my head with: >> >> sub a { >> &b >> } >> > > Jon Orwant schooled me with this one back in '97. > > >> My jaw literally hit the table. I'd also not know the & invocation style >> (without brackets) automatically passed @_ into the sub. I'd thought that & >> is soooo Perl 4 and beneath my notice. Whoops. Two characters. Two bloody >> characters to my 21. >> > > Of course, '&' is necessary when defererencing a coderef, but the context > is different I'll admit. > > >> Got the job though. :) >> > > Yeah, about that. We should talk... > > Cheers, > - Richard > > -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexcapsa at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 12:01:45 2008 From: alexcapsa at gmail.com (Alexandru Capsa) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:01:45 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk lineup In-Reply-To: References: <8204a4fe0809241015i6c849b45uc9962af9fdf5d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <9C8C9DEF-6FA3-4AB0-AD8D-DC1B6F71405E@vilerichard.com> <669242CF-45BC-4F52-8050-21B344151469@gmail.com> <5bef4baf0810031039sf27fa7aj9aeb3ab93d171319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, when you have to call a method defined later in the source file you have to use '&' or use the brackets. Example: package foo; sub my_method { my $b = some_method; } sub some_method { return "something"; } The above will fail, Perl will think of "some_method" as just another bare word. But if you write: my $b = &some_method; or my $b = some_method(); everything will work. Of course, you can also define some_method before my_method. Cheers, Alex On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: > ... > > Dammit. > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Richard Dice wrote: > >> >>> >>> But then Richard broke my head with: >>> >>> sub a { >>> &b >>> } >>> >> >> Jon Orwant schooled me with this one back in '97. >> >> >>> My jaw literally hit the table. I'd also not know the & invocation style >>> (without brackets) automatically passed @_ into the sub. I'd thought that & >>> is soooo Perl 4 and beneath my notice. Whoops. Two characters. Two bloody >>> characters to my 21. >>> >> >> Of course, '&' is necessary when defererencing a coderef, but the context >> is different I'll admit. >> >> >>> Got the job though. :) >>> >> >> Yeah, about that. We should talk... >> >> Cheers, >> - Richard >> >> > > > -- > dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -- Alexandru Capsa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abram.hindle at softwareprocess.us Sat Oct 4 06:49:06 2008 From: abram.hindle at softwareprocess.us (abram hindle) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk lineup In-Reply-To: (sfid-20081003_150728_576253_1D8D57BA) References: <8204a4fe0809241015i6c849b45uc9962af9fdf5d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <9C8C9DEF-6FA3-4AB0-AD8D-DC1B6F71405E@vilerichard.com> <669242CF-45BC-4F52-8050-21B344151469@gmail.com> <5bef4baf0810031039sf27fa7aj9aeb3ab93d171319@mail.gmail.com> (sfid-20081003_150728_576253_1D8D57BA) Message-ID: This is really dangerous behaviour. Especially in OO code. When you're doing OO you have to remember that: * The method might not be defined in this package! ** You might've inherited, or it was auto-generated/auto-run by autoload * OO in Perl uses Dynamic Dispatch, ** you should dispatch off your object *** What if you subclassed the object? * If you sublcass your alias won't work if you overload what was aliased! I've provided some example code about the issue. abram On Fri, 3 Oct 2008, Alexandru Capsa wrote: > Well, when you have to call a method defined later in the source file you > have to use '&' or use the brackets. Example: > > package foo; > > sub my_method { > my $b = some_method; > } > sub some_method { > return "something"; > } > > The above will fail, Perl will think of "some_method" as just another bare > word. But if you write: > > my $b = &some_method; > or > my $b = some_method(); > > everything will work. Of course, you can also define some_method before > my_method. > > Cheers, > Alex > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: > >> ... >> >> Dammit. >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Richard Dice wrote: >> >>> >>>> >>>> But then Richard broke my head with: >>>> >>>> sub a { >>>> &b >>>> } >>>> >>> >>> Jon Orwant schooled me with this one back in '97. >>> >>> >>>> My jaw literally hit the table. I'd also not know the & invocation style >>>> (without brackets) automatically passed @_ into the sub. I'd thought that & >>>> is soooo Perl 4 and beneath my notice. Whoops. Two characters. Two bloody >>>> characters to my 21. >>>> >>> >>> Of course, '&' is necessary when defererencing a coderef, but the context >>> is different I'll admit. >>> >>> >>>> Got the job though. :) >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, about that. We should talk... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> - Richard >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> > > > -- > Alexandru Capsa > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: test2.pl Type: text/x-perl Size: 1908 bytes Desc: URL: From linux at alteeve.com Wed Oct 8 16:28:49 2008 From: linux at alteeve.com (Madison Kelly) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:28:49 -0400 Subject: [tpm] TZ code to hour offset conversion ideas? Message-ID: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> Hi all, I want to create a simple ... "library"? ... to provide data for a simple method do say: my $offset=&get_tz_offset("est", "1998-06-15"); I've got the TZ data from: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm It would need to be parsed though, and this I am hoping I can avoid by downloading an existing parser (I am not too concerned how this parser actually dumps data, I can hack that up). I just need something like: "For TZ X in date Y, the offset is Z". I am not sure if I will need the geographic data, as I am not trying to determine what the TZ is, that's given to me. I just need the offset for the given date. Any suggestions? Should I start hacking up a parser myself? Do I ask too many questions? :) Madi From rdice at pobox.com Wed Oct 8 17:22:12 2008 From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:22:12 -0400 Subject: [tpm] TZ code to hour offset conversion ideas? In-Reply-To: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> References: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <5bef4baf0810081722v73a44b0bj868eaf04a5cedd1@mail.gmail.com> Hi Madi, There is data in a file, and you need the data in the file in order to give you some information you need to work with. Obviously, you need an extraction routine to get the data in the file, assuming it is even remotely complicated. (If it's simple you could use split or unpack or regexen or something like that.) You have two options: 1. find the extraction routine that someone else created to get at the data (probably a CPAN module if a CPAN module exists for the data you want) 2. create your own extraction routine (which will probably just be a complicated composition of split or unpack or regexen, looping through lines in the file and building up various data structures for manipulation... or, if the data is really-gnarly-but-regular then maybe you'd use a formal parsing technique, like Parse::RecDescent) Option 1 is a research project for you to find what you need, if indeed it exists. Option 2 is elbow grease. Either way, please let us know how things work out. (But you already enumerated options 1 and 2 in your own email, more or less. So... what exactly are you asking us for?) Cheers, - Richard On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I want to create a simple ... "library"? ... to provide data for a simple > method do say: > > my $offset=&get_tz_offset("est", "1998-06-15"); > > I've got the TZ data from: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm > > It would need to be parsed though, and this I am hoping I can avoid by > downloading an existing parser (I am not too concerned how this parser > actually dumps data, I can hack that up). I just need something like: "For > TZ X in date Y, the offset is Z". > > I am not sure if I will need the geographic data, as I am not trying to > determine what the TZ is, that's given to me. I just need the offset for the > given date. > > Any suggestions? Should I start hacking up a parser myself? Do I ask too > many questions? :) > > Madi > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sergio at salvi.ca Wed Oct 8 18:39:46 2008 From: sergio at salvi.ca (Sergio Salvi) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:39:46 -0400 Subject: [tpm] TZ code to hour offset conversion ideas? In-Reply-To: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> References: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <568473410810081839t6be2367ct38b04a0be5b215ef@mail.gmail.com> http://search.cpan.org/dist/DateTime-TimeZone/lib/DateTime/TimeZone.pm It's even mentioned in the link you sent... :P On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I want to create a simple ... "library"? ... to provide data for a simple > method do say: > > my $offset=&get_tz_offset("est", "1998-06-15"); > > I've got the TZ data from: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm > > It would need to be parsed though, and this I am hoping I can avoid by > downloading an existing parser (I am not too concerned how this parser > actually dumps data, I can hack that up). I just need something like: "For > TZ X in date Y, the offset is Z". > > I am not sure if I will need the geographic data, as I am not trying to > determine what the TZ is, that's given to me. I just need the offset for the > given date. > > Any suggestions? Should I start hacking up a parser myself? Do I ask too > many questions? :) > > Madi > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > From liam at holoweb.net Wed Oct 8 18:40:12 2008 From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:40:12 -0400 Subject: [tpm] TZ code to hour offset conversion ideas? In-Reply-To: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> References: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <1223516412.1405.252.camel@desktop.barefootcomputing.com> On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 19:28 -0400, Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I want to create a simple ... "library"? ... to provide data for a > simple method do say: > > my $offset=&get_tz_offset("est", "1998-06-15"); > > I've got the TZ data from: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm Most (not all) operating systems have this too. And there's probably a Perl module to access it. Note that your example is dangerous -- EST will always be "eastern standard time" and EDT will always be eastern daylight [savings] time; people switch from using EDT to using EST for the Winter. So you need three pieces of information -- the date of the changes in a given year (and this is in general political, and does not universally follow any algorithm, although most of the time in most countries it appears to in practice), the date and the base location or timezone. Date::Manip can probably do what you want, though, via Date_ConvTZ. If not, try Date::ParseDate and/or Time::Zone instead. E.g. use Time::Zone; print tz_offset("CET"); Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From Mashton at 4All.com Wed Oct 8 19:38:32 2008 From: Mashton at 4All.com (Mike Ashton) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:38:32 -0400 Subject: [tpm] TZ code to hour offset conversion ideas? In-Reply-To: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> References: <48ED4231.9080605@alteeve.com> Message-ID: <48ED6EA8.3070506@4All.com> Madi, I do a lot of world time calculations. I would not use timezone codes like est, cst or pst since they are not unique and do not give you enough granularity for reliable date calculations. An example is CST: - Central Std Time (-6) North America ( some locations do not observe DST ) - China Std Time (+8) - Central Std Time (+9.5) Australia ( some locations do not observe DST ) Also over time, the borders that define these timezones have occasionally moved, take a look at Indiana, there are 8 different rules based on the movement of Central and Eastern time definitions and changing observance or non observance of DST. Especially if you need to do historical calculations, like in your example, to do this accurately you need to use the Olson database. There are reason's why there is a America/Toronto and America/Montreal since historically they did not observe the same time rules (before standard timezones, time was set to the real time of major cities train station observed time) and they did not always observe DST or observe at the same time. In perl use DateTime::TimeZone it will make your life a lot easier in the long run. For lots of info go to datetime.perl.org Here is part of an example program I wrote, reading a file with some locales ( eg. america/toronto) in it and calculating the current UTC offset and writing them back out. =============== #!/usr/bin/perl -w use DateTime; use DateTime::TimeZone; use Text::Delimited; ## read in the timezones from the system and generate a text ile with all current UTC offsets my $infile = 'timezone.db'; my $outfile = 'timezone_out.db'; my $file = new Text::Delimited; $file->Open($infile) or die print 'Cant open file'; open (OUTFILE,"> $outfile"); print OUTFILE "Locale\tOffset\n"; my @header = $file->Fields; while ( my $row = $file->Read ) { local ($tz,$offset); $tz = DateTime::TimeZone->new( name => $row->{Locale} ); local ($tz,$offset); $tz = DateTime::TimeZone->new( name => $row->{Locale} ); $utc = DateTime->now(time_zone=>'UTC'); $offset = $tz->offset_for_datetime($utc)/(60*60); print OUTFILE "$row->{Locale}\t$offset\n"; } close OUTFILE; $file->Close; ============= Hope this helps. Mike Madison Kelly wrote: > Hi all, > > I want to create a simple ... "library"? ... to provide data for a > simple method do say: > > my $offset=&get_tz_offset("est", "1998-06-15"); > > I've got the TZ data from: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm > > It would need to be parsed though, and this I am hoping I can avoid > by downloading an existing parser (I am not too concerned how this > parser actually dumps data, I can hack that up). I just need something > like: "For TZ X in date Y, the offset is Z". > > I am not sure if I will need the geographic data, as I am not trying > to determine what the TZ is, that's given to me. I just need the > offset for the given date. > > Any suggestions? Should I start hacking up a parser myself? Do I ask > too many questions? :) > > Madi > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at vex.net Mon Oct 13 09:58:26 2008 From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] Alarming Development Message-ID: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> As I was browsing the laptop section of a local Large Electronic Retailer, (see, I do have a life), I noticed an Asus netbook, so I moved in for a closer look. The keyboard made me reel in horror; the Return key was at right angles to its usual position, and the pipe/backslash (|\) key had migrated down and to the left, to the end of the home row. To make matters worse, a quick check of the normal-sized machines around it revealed that many of them displayed the same mutation. Has the miscreant who transposed the Control key away from the left end of the home row escaped and focused his malevolence on the other end? Something Must Be Done To Stop This! From davec-b at rogers.com Mon Oct 13 10:40:09 2008 From: davec-b at rogers.com (David Collier-Brown) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:40:09 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: <48F387F9.9070902@rogers.com> Asus thinks no-one is a touch typist: I just watched myself hit the return key and my reflex arc says which would arguably have me separating my lines with backslashes... --dave arocker at vex.net wrote: > As I was browsing the laptop section of a local Large Electronic Retailer, > (see, I do have a life), I noticed an Asus netbook, so I moved in for a > closer look. > > The keyboard made me reel in horror; the Return key was at right angles to > its usual position, and the pipe/backslash (|\) key had migrated down and > to the left, to the end of the home row. To make matters worse, a quick > check of the normal-sized machines around it revealed that many of them > displayed the same mutation. Has the miscreant who transposed the Control > key away from the left end of the home row escaped and focused his > malevolence on the other end? > > Something Must Be Done To Stop This! > > _______________________________________________ > u-u mailing list > u-u at mail.unixunanimous.org > https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u > -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb at spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain (416) 223-896 From hugh at phaedrav.com Mon Oct 13 11:26:48 2008 From: hugh at phaedrav.com (Hugh Gamble) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:26:48 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Return to the past. Re: [u-u] Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> Sorry to correct you, but the Return key is one row above the home row, immediately to the right of the Line Feed key. The right end of the home row is for: Rub Out, Rept, Break. http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/kbd_top.shtml?large It's easy enough to move the key caps around, as long as they're all symmetrical cylinders. Can anybody help me wire a Windows key in my KSR33? Seriously there's been no "Return" key since terminals stopped having carriages. The "Enter" key is frequently L shaped so you can hit it either way. For a lap top, they squish the L, and you can have it vertical or horizontal (as opposed to both). Some of us prefer an EMACS friendly keyboard layout, but if you're using a PC you should expect a PC keyboard layout. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard with the Ctrl key in the bottom row along with Alt, Fn, the Menu key and Windows key. The keyboard I'm typing on also has an Internet key, Email key, Webcam key, Messenger/SMS key, Media key, Volume keys,Search key, and of course a Shopping key. The wheely thing on the left scrolls my windows, I don't know what the Go key under it does. Then there's the User keys,... too many to count. I think I'll be more efficient typing from my Symbian smartphone keyboard over the Bluetooth interface, using just my thumbs. Think of what you can do with your other 8 free fingers! arocker at vex.net wrote: > As I was browsing the laptop section of a local Large Electronic Retailer, > (see, I do have a life), I noticed an Asus netbook, so I moved in for a > closer look. > > The keyboard made me reel in horror; the Return key was at right angles to > its usual position, and the pipe/backslash (|\) key had migrated down and > to the left, to the end of the home row. To make matters worse, a quick > check of the normal-sized machines around it revealed that many of them > displayed the same mutation. Has the miscreant who transposed the Control > key away from the left end of the home row escaped and focused his > malevolence on the other end? > > Something Must Be Done To Stop This! > > _______________________________________________ > u-u mailing list > u-u at mail.unixunanimous.org > https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u > -- Need what I can do? Hire me: http://www.PhaedraV.com/CV.html Hugh Gamble voice: 905 787 1849 cell: 416 602 4050 Hugh at PhaedraV.com ICQ 207069950 From dgilbert at dclg.ca Mon Oct 13 11:59:44 2008 From: dgilbert at dclg.ca (David Gilbert) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:59:44 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> Message-ID: <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> Hugh Gamble wrote: [concerning the horrors of modern keyboards...] > Sorry to correct you, > but the Return key is one row above the home row, > immediately to the right of the Line Feed key. > The right end of the home row is for: Rub Out, Rept, Break. > > http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/kbd_top.shtml?large > Heh. I had long considered Sun type 5 keyboards to be the pinnacle of workstation keyboard technology. They often came with an optical mouse with a special pad --- ancient technology by today's standards, but useful for long periods of accurate graphic manipulation. http://eintr.net/systems/sun/kbd-type5c-mouse-type5/pi/2.jpg It had loads of extra keys ... and a full set of shifting keys that could be bound to the emacs-nirvana of shift alt meta and super. It's only recently that modern keybards have started to grow extra keys that are useful --- finally acknowledging that keyboards are more useful and productive than mice. Lately, however, I've been considering getting this beast: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/3498&cl=ca,en I already enjoy the built in screen because my laptop has one. However, the G15 is one of the only modern keyboards to include extra keys for the user to assign. In general, the logitech keyboards allow you to repurpose the "web" or "shopping" keys --- which makes them more useful, but the G15 goes that extra step. As for the "enter" key, I re-learn keyboard key placements fairly easily. Many laptop compressed keyboards put keys in annoying places. For a bit of history, the "L" of the Enter key was quite backwards on the Amiga 500 keybards and the control key was up with the caps lock. This was after sun had abandoned this key placement by several years... http://www.remix64.com/images/r64/amiga_c64_ami_2.jpg From bduncan at beachnet.org Mon Oct 13 13:42:22 2008 From: bduncan at beachnet.org (Bill Duncan, 416-697-9315) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> from "Hugh Gamble" at Oct 13, 2008 02:26:48 PM Message-ID: [Hugh Gamble said:] > > Sorry to correct you, > but the Return key is one row above the home row, > immediately to the right of the Line Feed key. > The right end of the home row is for: Rub Out, Rept, Break. Who needs those keys? Doesn't everyone just use ^M for CR, ^J if you need a linefeed, ^H if you make a mistake and if (like me) you use vi, you probably do the ^[ key alot (esc).. Cheers. -- Bill Duncan, | http://www.servermetrix.com/ bduncan at servermetrix.com | - linux/unix/network security +1 416 697-9315 | - web and application hosting From liam at holoweb.net Mon Oct 13 19:20:27 2008 From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:20:27 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> Message-ID: <1223950827.1405.543.camel@desktop.barefootcomputing.com> On Mon, 2008-10-13 at 14:59 -0400, David Gilbert wrote: [...] > Heh. I had long considered Sun type 5 keyboards to be the pinnacle of > workstation keyboard technology. I liked them too. Actually I preferred the Type 3. Now I have a Sun Type 7 USB keyboard on my PC, and it stll has the keys on the left, as well as (sorry hugh!) a Return key -- it's about a year old. I find I make slightly fewer typos with this keyboard than with the HP multimedia keyboard supplied with the computre when I bought it. Liam (in Prince Edward county, 3 hrs drive E of Toronto) -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 14 17:20:12 2008 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:20:12 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> Message-ID: > > Seriously there's been no "Return" key > since terminals stopped having carriages. Macs have always had a Return key, and so did many glass TTYs, including the Televideo models that I once used: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/tvi955kbd.gif --Toby From fulko.hew at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 06:50:25 2008 From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:50:25 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> Message-ID: <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Seriously there's been no "Return" key >> since terminals stopped having carriages. >> > > Macs have always had a Return key, and so did many glass TTYs, including > the Televideo models that I once used: > http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/tvi955kbd.gif Gosh... I remember those things, and Lear Siegler too... You had a return key!!! ... I had to use Control M and Control J... You had Control M and Control J, I had to use Baudot, they didn't have a control key... But at least Baudot had a shift key... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From indy at indigostar.com Wed Oct 15 06:57:51 2008 From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:57:51 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net><48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You had keys!!! I had to punch the holes directly into the cards. I can't understand all the fuss about a return key... All you had to do was throw in a new card. Indy Singh IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Fulko Hew To: tpm at to.pm.org Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: Seriously there's been no "Return" key since terminals stopped having carriages. Macs have always had a Return key, and so did many glass TTYs, including the Televideo models that I once used: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/tvi955kbd.gif Gosh... I remember those things, and Lear Siegler too... You had a return key!!! ... I had to use Control M and Control J... You had Control M and Control J, I had to use Baudot, they didn't have a control key... But at least Baudot had a shift key... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ toronto-pm mailing list toronto-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfowle at navicominc.com Wed Oct 15 07:07:54 2008 From: mfowle at navicominc.com (Mark Fowle) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:07:54 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net><48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com><8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA542582F89@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> Is burning PROMs by hand before or after punch cards? ________________________________ From: toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org [mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Indy Singh Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:58 AM To: Fulko Hew; tpm at to.pm.org Subject: Re: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development You had keys!!! I had to punch the holes directly into the cards. I can't understand all the fuss about a return key... All you had to do was throw in a new card. Indy Singh IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Fulko Hew To: tpm at to.pm.org Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: Seriously there's been no "Return" key since terminals stopped having carriages. Macs have always had a Return key, and so did many glass TTYs, including the Televideo models that I once used: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/tvi955kbd.gif Gosh... I remember those things, and Lear Siegler too... You had a return key!!! ... I had to use Control M and Control J... You had Control M and Control J, I had to use Baudot, they didn't have a control key... But at least Baudot had a shift key... ________________________________ _______________________________________________ toronto-pm mailing list toronto-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From indy at indigostar.com Wed Oct 15 07:23:40 2008 From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:23:40 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net><48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com><8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA542582F89@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> Message-ID: You had PROMS!!! We had to use ferrite core memory. Punch cards were invented in 1881, PROMS were invented in 1956. Indy Singh IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Fowle To: tpm at to.pm.org Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development Is burning PROMs by hand before or after punch cards? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org [mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Indy Singh Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:58 AM To: Fulko Hew; tpm at to.pm.org Subject: Re: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development You had keys!!! I had to punch the holes directly into the cards. I can't understand all the fuss about a return key... All you had to do was throw in a new card. Indy Singh IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Fulko Hew To: tpm at to.pm.org Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: Seriously there's been no "Return" key since terminals stopped having carriages. Macs have always had a Return key, and so did many glass TTYs, including the Televideo models that I once used: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/tvi955kbd.gif Gosh... I remember those things, and Lear Siegler too... You had a return key!!! ... I had to use Control M and Control J... You had Control M and Control J, I had to use Baudot, they didn't have a control key... But at least Baudot had a shift key... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ toronto-pm mailing list toronto-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ toronto-pm mailing list toronto-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talexb at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 09:04:23 2008 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:04:23 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's a page with a photo of a Lear Siegler ADM-3A: http://www.linuxsoft.ro/wiki/administrare/tutorial-vi?s=asa I used one of those on my Co-op jobs and first graduate job. The terminal opened up from the front, and inside was a massive (18" by 12") PCB with perhaps a hundred IC DIPs. 25 lines, 80 columns, and bloody heavy. Numeric keypad? Nope. Alt key? Nope. On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Fulko Hew wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Toby Thain > wrote: > >>> >>> Seriously there's been no "Return" key >>> since terminals stopped having carriages. >> >> Macs have always had a Return key, and so did many glass TTYs, including >> the Televideo models that I once used: >> http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/tvi955kbd.gif > > Gosh... I remember those things, and Lear Siegler too... > You had a return key!!! ... I had to use Control M and Control J... > You had Control M and Control J, I had to use Baudot, they didn't have a > control key... > But at least Baudot had a shift key... > > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb From liam at holoweb.net Wed Oct 15 16:20:51 2008 From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:20:51 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1224112851.14400.73.camel@desktop.barefootcomputing.com> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 12:04 -0400, Alex Beamish wrote: > Here's a page with a photo of a Lear Siegler ADM-3A: > > http://www.linuxsoft.ro/wiki/administrare/tutorial-vi?s=asa yay! We had those at University (1981) -- they replaced the teletypes :D :D You could open the little door to the left of the keyboard and play with the DIP switches for parity & baud rate. Emacs on those terminals was a pain -- e.g. ^S/^Q flow control was needed, and no Meta key or function keys -- so it's just as well I was a vi user :-) Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From legrady at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 16:14:43 2008 From: legrady at gmail.com (Tom Legrady) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:14:43 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1FCF2043-63CE-4D91-BE3C-E5FB89D2FF54@gmail.com> I do remember a Cosmac VIP (RCA 1802 ... I think it had PDP op code ) single board thing I had around 1979, where I entered machine language programs into all 256 bytes of memory one hex digit at a time. I used it to create some "computer graphics" which we used at VideoCabaret in our production of "1984" On 15-Oct-08, at 12:04 PM, Alex Beamish wrote: > Here's a page with a photo of a Lear Siegler ADM-3A: > > http://www.linuxsoft.ro/wiki/administrare/tutorial-vi?s=asa > > I used one of those on my Co-op jobs and first graduate job. The > terminal opened up from the front, and inside was a massive (18" by > 12") PCB with perhaps a hundred IC DIPs. 25 lines, 80 columns, and > bloody heavy. > > Numeric keypad? Nope. Alt key? Nope. > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Fulko Hew > wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Toby Thain >> >> wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Seriously there's been no "Return" key >>>> since terminals stopped having carriages. >>> >>> Macs have always had a Return key, and so did many glass TTYs, >>> including >>> the Televideo models that I once used: >>> http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/tvi955kbd.gif >> >> Gosh... I remember those things, and Lear Siegler too... >> You had a return key!!! ... I had to use Control M and Control J... >> You had Control M and Control J, I had to use Baudot, they didn't >> have a >> control key... >> But at least Baudot had a shift key... >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> > > > > -- > Alex Beamish > Toronto, Ontario > aka talexb > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm From arocker at vex.net Wed Oct 15 19:45:05 2008 From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA542582F89@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net><48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com><8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA542582F89@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> Message-ID: <49610.76.66.125.68.1224125105.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> > Is burning PROMs by hand before or after punch cards? > Definitely after. Proms started with as much memory as early machines had in total. From talexb at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 20:14:48 2008 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:14:48 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <49610.76.66.125.68.1224125105.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA542582F89@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> <49610.76.66.125.68.1224125105.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 10:45 PM, wrote: >> Is burning PROMs by hand before or after punch cards? >> > Definitely after. Proms started with as much memory as early machines had > in total. Yup -- when my Dad would take my downtown to his office once in a while, he'd set me up with a punch card machine. One time in the mid-60s I made up cards for every student in my Grade 3 class, as well as the teacher, Mrs. Martini. I didn't get introduced to PROMs until the mid-70s, and EPROMs (erased with the magic UV light) in the late 70's. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb From alexmac131 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 16 09:56:45 2008 From: alexmac131 at hotmail.com (Alex Mackinnon) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:56:45 +0000 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA542582F89@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> <49610.76.66.125.68.1224125105.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: Lovely topic, but could all insert some perl code to keep it on topic for the list :) #!/bin/perl print "hello world\n";; > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:14:48 -0400> From: talexb at gmail.com> To: tpm at to.pm.org> Subject: Re: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development> > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 10:45 PM, wrote:> >> Is burning PROMs by hand before or after punch cards?> >>> > Definitely after. Proms started with as much memory as early machines had> > in total.> > Yup -- when my Dad would take my downtown to his office once in a> while, he'd set me up with a punch card machine. One time in the> mid-60s I made up cards for every student in my Grade 3 class, as well> as the teacher, Mrs. Martini.> > I didn't get introduced to PROMs until the mid-70s, and EPROMs (erased> with the magic UV light) in the late 70's.> > toronto-pm mailing list> toronto-pm at pm.org> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm _________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fulko.hew at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 10:20:19 2008 From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:20:19 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <8204a4fe0810150650s489d9eb6kd1d9d5f6042919e2@mail.gmail.com> <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA542582F89@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> <49610.76.66.125.68.1224125105.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: <8204a4fe0810161020m17bb146mb45bc280b8687704@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Alex Mackinnon wrote: > > Lovely topic, but could all insert some perl code to keep it on topic for the list :) Note: The following code is untested. require Term::Cap; $terminal = Tgetent Term::Cap { TERM => "adm3" }; $terminal->Trequire(qw/im ei cr/); $terminal->Tputs('im'); print "Hello World"; $terminal->Tputs('cr'); $terminal->Tputs('ei'); -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ayilmaz at pobox.com Thu Oct 16 12:50:44 2008 From: ayilmaz at pobox.com (Amanda Yilmaz) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:50:44 -0400 Subject: [tpm] ISO keyboard on Canadian laptops (was: Alarming Development) In-Reply-To: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: <1224186644.18690.1279689291@webmail.messagingengine.com> Actually, what ARocker is talking about is not just certain laptop manufacturers capriciously messing around with keyboard layouts; it's a general change seen on most Canadian-market laptop keyboards over the past year or so. If you go to any computer store in Canada these days, you'll find that most Canadian-market laptops now sport a new "bilingual" keyboard (at least those from Acer, Asus, HP/Compaq, Toshiba and LG do). This keyboard differs from the US English one not only in its key markings, which are now dual English/French, but also in the shape and placement of a few of the physical keys. Basically, this is the ISO hardware layout used in Europe, including the UK and Ireland, with an upside-down-L-shaped Enter key, and the key at the American [\|] location moved to the right of the ['"]. There is also an additional key to the left of the [Z], sometimes known as the "102nd key" or the "ISO key". If you select the Canadian French keyboard layout in software, this additional key is used for the guillemets (French quotation marks). If you select the US English layout, it just becomes a second [\|] key. Those of you with long memories may recognize the ISO hardware shape as resembling that of the original IBM PC keyboard from 1981, which had the [`~] key to the right of the ['"], an L-shaped Enter key, and the [\|] key to the left of the [Z]. All of this is a result of the fact that laptops in Canada are increasingly made with dual English- or French-language Windows capability, where the language is chosen when you boot the laptop for the first time. Before, if you wanted a French-language Windows laptop with the Canadian French keyboard (which is ISO-shaped to accommodate the guillemets), you had to order it specially, at least if you weren't in Quebec. In addition, the laptop manufacturers were only making certain models available in French, and not always the coolest ones. Whether through manufacturers' desire to unify their stock, complaints from francophones about limited laptop selections, or perhaps government prodding, the result is that most Canadian-market laptops now come with keyboards in the ISO hardware shape (with the L-shaped Enter key and the extra 102nd key) rather than the US one, and have dual English/French markings on them, so they're compatible with both the US English and Canadian French layouts. I have an LG laptop with this newer keyboard, and I don't mind it (especially since I'm a Europhile anyway). It does take some getting used to, however, especially retraining your left pinky to reach across the "102nd key" to reach the left Shift key. At least that means we'll have an easier time dealing with keyboards we encounter when visiting Europe. Amanda ----- Original message ----- From: arocker at vex.net To: tpm at to.pm.org, u-u at mail.unixunanimous.org Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [u-u] Alarming Development As I was browsing the laptop section of a local Large Electronic Retailer, (see, I do have a life), I noticed an Asus netbook, so I moved in for a closer look. The keyboard made me reel in horror; the Return key was at right angles to its usual position, and the pipe/backslash (|\) key had migrated down and to the left, to the end of the home row. To make matters worse, a quick check of the normal-sized machines around it revealed that many of them displayed the same mutation. Has the miscreant who transposed the Control key away from the left end of the home row escaped and focused his malevolence on the other end? Something Must Be Done To Stop This! _______________________________________________ u-u mailing list u-u at mail.unixunanimous.org https://unixunanimous.org/mailman/listinfo/u-u From lanas at securenet.net Fri Oct 17 15:51:33 2008 From: lanas at securenet.net (lanas) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:51:33 -0400 Subject: [tpm] ISO keyboard on Canadian laptops (was: Alarming Development) In-Reply-To: <1224186644.18690.1279689291@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <1224186644.18690.1279689291@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20081017185133.11823fd4@mistral.stie> Le jeudi, 16 Octobre 2008 15:50:44 -0400, "Amanda Yilmaz" a ?crit : > If you go to any computer store in Canada these days, you'll find that > most Canadian-market laptops now sport a new "bilingual" keyboard (at > least those from Acer, Asus, HP/Compaq, Toshiba and LG do). This > keyboard differs from the US English one not only in its key markings, > which are now dual English/French, but also in the shape and placement > of a few of the physical keys. Well, that's nice to know. I hope they start selling stand-alone keyboards like this too. Al From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 10:42:35 2008 From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Quantum Mechanic) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:42:35 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> Message-ID: <77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 2:59 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > Hugh Gamble wrote: > > Lately, however, I've been considering getting this beast: > > http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/3498&cl=ca,en > > Yes, but the 2005 versionof the gamer keyboard had more unassigned keys. The new version is pretty cheap in that regard. I *think* every application could have a different key/macro mapping, though it's been a while since I played with one, so I could be mis-remembering. -- -QM Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgilbert at dclg.ca Wed Oct 22 13:34:16 2008 From: dgilbert at dclg.ca (David Gilbert) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:34:16 -0400 Subject: [tpm] [u-u] Return to the past. Re: Alarming Development In-Reply-To: <77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> <77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18687.36424.417851.954889@canoe.dclg.ca> >>>>> "Quantum" == Quantum Mechanic writes: Quantum> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 2:59 PM, David Gilbert Quantum> wrote: Quantum> Yes, but the 2005 Quantum> versionof Quantum> the gamer keyboard had more unassigned keys. The new version Quantum> is pretty cheap in that regard. I *think* every application Quantum> could have a different key/macro mapping, though it's been a Quantum> while since I played with one, so I could be mis-remembering. And I'm kicking myself for not getting one then. The G11 (current keyboard) has the extra keys, but no display. With the logitech driver software you can reassign the keys on a per application basis, yes. It also has extra settings for generic applications (not listed) and generic fullscreen applications not listed. Dave. -- ============================================================================ |David Gilbert, Independent Contractor. | Two things can be | |Mail: dave at daveg.ca | equal if and only if they | |http://daveg.ca | are precisely opposite. | =========================================================GLO================ From indy at indigostar.com Sat Oct 25 08:36:58 2008 From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:36:58 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Splitting a perl cgi into cgi-bin and htdocs References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net><48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca><77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com> <18687.36424.417851.954889@canoe.dclg.ca> Message-ID: Hi Folks, I am working on a perl cgi application and I'm wondering if it would be better to split it into two directories in cgi-bin and htdocs, or put all the parts into one directory under htdocs. Background: The perl cgi application consists of components like the following: 1) The main cgi script 2) Supporting perl scripts meant to run from a shell 3) Perl modules used by the scripts 4) Data files used by the cgi (e.g. templates) and 5) Data files that must be in the htdocs directory (like images) 6) Html documentation The files in the second group have to go in the htdocs directory, but I am wondering if I can simplify the directory structure by putting all the files from the first group in the htdocs directory. One of the advantages of having a single directory structure is that installation would be simplified, one would just untar a single file into one directory. Another advantage is that my Apache is already configured to use mod_perl to process .cgi and .pl file if they are in the htdocs or below. Anybody have experience with this? Other questions that come to mind for the single directory scenario are: * How to configure .htaccess to run the cgi script by default? * How to prevent the perl shell scripts from being accessed? * How to prevent the perl modules (.pm files) from being accessed? Would be better to put the restricted files into a subdirectory and configure .htaccess file to deny access? Indy Singh IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com From olaf at vilerichard.com Sat Oct 25 10:03:38 2008 From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:03:38 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Splitting a perl cgi into cgi-bin and htdocs In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net><48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca><77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com> <18687.36424.417851.954889@canoe.dclg.ca> Message-ID: Hi Indy, I don't generally use .htaccess files, but some of these directives may be helpful to you: On 25-Oct-08, at 11:36 AM, Indy Singh wrote: > > > Anybody have experience with this? > > Other questions that come to mind for the single directory scenario > are: > * How to configure .htaccess to run the cgi script by default? DirectoryIndex index.cgi index.html index.htm Something like the above is what you can use to set the default file for a given directory. You can use arbitrary names and put them in the order of priority. > > * How to prevent the perl shell scripts from being accessed? > > * How to prevent the perl modules (.pm files) from being accessed? > > Would be better to put the restricted files into a subdirectory and > configure .htaccess file to deny access? That would probably be the simplest way to handle it. Order allow,deny Deny from all I use this to prevent any subversion folders from being viewable via the web. Something like that should do the trick for you. I hope this helps! Olaf -- Olaf Alders olaf at vilerichard.com http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard From fulko.hew at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 18:10:49 2008 From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:10:49 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Splitting a perl cgi into cgi-bin and htdocs In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0810251810u22240a19j91906441940aea39@mail.gmail.com> References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> <77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com> <18687.36424.417851.954889@canoe.dclg.ca> <8204a4fe0810251810u22240a19j91906441940aea39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8204a4fe0810251810i3e5ee1bbn9bbb9faa717ff4e3@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Indy Singh wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am working on a perl cgi application and I'm wondering if it would be > better to split it into two directories in cgi-bin and htdocs, or put all > the parts into one directory under htdocs In my case... for my mega cgi-based application, I ended up creating a directory tree underneath htdocs and adding an entry to httpd.conf for my application set to allow cgi on it, like: Options FollowSymLinks ExecCGI AddHandler cgi-script .pl AllowOverride None Order allow,deny Allow from all Sorry, I guess I did this so long ago, that it wasn't called htdocs yet, but it was still called html.' Everything is under that directory, the cgi apps, the documentation, etc. My excuse (before you start commenting about bad style, or approach) is that... I did this about 10 years ago... I didn't know what I was doing... I didn't know if I was doing it the 'right way'... ... but It works! YMMV. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at vex.net Sun Oct 26 08:18:32 2008 From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] An event that was worth attending Message-ID: Ontario Linux Fest: http://www.onlinux.ca/ It's over for this year, but I recommend watching for it next year. (It wasn't just Linux; the FSF, BSD, and Solaris all got some attention). From talexb at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 19:12:22 2008 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:12:22 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Splitting a perl cgi into cgi-bin and htdocs In-Reply-To: References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> <48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca> <77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com> <18687.36424.417851.954889@canoe.dclg.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Indy Singh wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am working on a perl cgi application and I'm wondering if it would be > better to split it into two directories in cgi-bin and htdocs, or put all > the parts into one directory under htdocs. > > Background: > The perl cgi application consists of components like the following: > 1) The main cgi script > 2) Supporting perl scripts meant to run from a shell > 3) Perl modules used by the scripts > 4) Data files used by the cgi (e.g. templates) > and > 5) Data files that must be in the htdocs directory (like images) > 6) Html documentation > > The files in the second group have to go in the htdocs directory, but I am > wondering if I can simplify the directory structure by putting all the files > from the first group in the htdocs directory. One of the advantages of > having a single directory structure is that installation would be > simplified, one would just untar a single file into one directory. Another > advantage is that my Apache is already configured to use mod_perl to process > .cgi and .pl file if they are in the htdocs or below. > > Anybody have experience with this? I like to put each of the various files into different directories -- that way, instead of searching for one of the CGIs (say) in a directory that has everything, or getting a listing of just the HTML files, I just go to the specific directory and look there. Typically, HTML files go into the htdocs directories, with any associated files (graphics, flash) in a sub-directory. The CGIs go into the mod_perl directory, with the templates either in the same directory or a sub-directory, depending on the number of files. Scripts to be run from the command line go into another directory (bin, perhaps), outside of the htdocs and mod_perl directories, to prevent the browser from accessing them. Any documentation (presumably, material that won't be accessed by the browser) will also go outside the htdocs and mod_perl directories. I like the idea of putting the libraries in a central location (lib, perhaps), so that both the CGIs and the command line scripts can make use of them. This assumes that you don't have libraries that behave differently under the mod_perl environment and the command line environment. So this means you have the following directory arrangement: bin - command line scripts doc - internal documentation htdocs - HTML files htdocs/images - graphics to be included by the HTML pages lib - libraries shared by the CGIs and command line scripts mod_perl - CGIs mod_perl/templates - template files for web pages. > Other questions that come to mind for the single directory scenario are: > * How to configure .htaccess to run the cgi script by default? > * How to prevent the perl shell scripts from being accessed? > * How to prevent the perl modules (.pm files) from being accessed? > Would be better to put the restricted files into a subdirectory and > configure .htaccess file to deny access? Since the web server is only allowed to access the htdocs and mod_perl directories, there's no way for a browser to find or even know about the bin, doc or lib directories. I would disable the ability to run Perl scripts in htdocs and instead have the mod_perl directory handle that. You could put restricted CGIs into a sub-directory of mod_perl, and control access to that through .htaccess. -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb From psema4 at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 19:16:51 2008 From: psema4 at gmail.com (Scott Elcomb) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:16:51 -0400 Subject: [tpm] An event that was worth attending In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99a6c38f0810261916l1548378ao751dfafb29cd2a8b@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:18 AM, wrote: > > Ontario Linux Fest: http://www.onlinux.ca/ > > It's over for this year, but I recommend watching for it next year. (It > wasn't just Linux; the FSF, BSD, and Solaris all got some attention). Although I'm a bit of a supporter, I haven't actually made it onlinux yet. I've been quite impressed with the folks behind the scenes and with the talk that the event generates though. :-) Hopefully next year I'll get out to see it firsthand. -- Scott Elcomb http://www.psema4.com/ From arocker at vex.net Mon Oct 27 15:30:53 2008 From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] [Fwd: Televideo terminals] Message-ID: <3d33f889af1da7e36fffce564ff23cf5.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> >From a friend: -------------------------------------------------------------------- The recent email trail on TPM regarding keyboards (which I think you began) reminded me that I have a few old - original! - Televideo terminals. I think there are three, all 755s. I had an original DEC vt100 at one point also, but I think it might have gone now. I loaned them out a couple of times for use in movies, but now they just sit in the loft above my garage. I think I also have an HP pizza box - a 910 maybe? - that runs HP-UX. Unless I already gave that away. Do you think you, or anyone else at TPM, would be interested in these? I had all these, as you probably know, for our Unix courses way-back-when, but now they just sit. I really don't want to just throw them away... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Any collectors, historians, or antique lovers interested? From indy at indigostar.com Tue Oct 28 04:08:43 2008 From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:08:43 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Splitting a perl cgi into cgi-bin and htdocs References: <61642.67.212.28.255.1223917106.squirrel@webmail.vex.net><48F392E8.2000108@phaedrav.com> <48F39AA0.3030706@dclg.ca><77f3972e0810221042q610ec9e8h19ebbfa68cf217c1@mail.gmail.com><18687.36424.417851.954889@canoe.dclg.ca> Message-ID: <7C802D6539944BF0831A0C78BFE8C376@roadhog> Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. Indy Singh IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 08:36:15 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:36:15 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? Message-ID: I was just curious, is there still a meeting this week? I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) Was that this month? Dave -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From magog at the-wire.com Wed Oct 29 10:04:44 2008 From: magog at the-wire.com (Michael Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:04:44 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> There should be a meeting this week. I missed the end of last month's meetings, so I don't know if anything special is scheduled. If anybody knows the specifics, let me know and I'll update the site. Michael On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:36:15 -0400 "Dave Doyle" wrote: > I was just curious, is there still a meeting this week? > > I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) Was > that this month? > > Dave > -- Michael Graham From fulko.hew at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 10:34:22 2008 From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:34:22 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> References: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> Message-ID: <8204a4fe0810291034i7a5609a4qa6f47e257fef3930@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Michael Graham wrote: > > There should be a meeting this week. I missed the end of last month's > meetings, so I don't know if anything special is scheduled. > > If anybody knows the specifics, let me know and I'll update the site. > Alas, we/I didn't have anyone formally roped in for tomorrow. > > I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) > Yes, I did corner someone into giving a talk in exchange for a book, but fortunately for them, I don't remember who, and I don't remember for what. So unless they volunteer... Also, when I was soliciting for Lightning talks we had this exchange ... On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Matt Sergeant wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Scott Elcomb wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Olaf Alders >> wrote: >> >>> Actually, I'd find that really helpful as well. >>> Olaf >>> >>> On 28-Jul-08, at 1:58 PM, adam.prime at utoronto.ca wrote: >>> >>>> Welcome, and please give us a talk about qpsmtpd. >>>> Adam >>>> >>> >> I'm with O and A* ;-) >> >> Welcome to TPM and many (many!) thanks for your modules. I've used >> several of them really heavily with the DBD::SQLite 's being foremost >> among them. I didn't realize there was anything like qpsmtpd out >> there until this thread; looking forward to trying it out. >> > > Yikes! In town 5 minutes and I'm already roped into a talk! > > I'll see what I can do. I have a talk on it stashed around somewhere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olaf at vilerichard.com Wed Oct 29 10:37:36 2008 From: olaf at vilerichard.com (Olaf Alders) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:37:36 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0810291034i7a5609a4qa6f47e257fef3930@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> <8204a4fe0810291034i7a5609a4qa6f47e257fef3930@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29-Oct-08, at 1:34 PM, Fulko Hew wrote: > > > > I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) > > Yes, I did corner someone into giving a talk in exchange for a book, > but fortunately for them, I don't remember who, and I don't remember > for what. > So unless they volunteer... I thought it was about writing custom Nagios plugins? -- Olaf Alders olaf at vilerichard.com http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 10:42:30 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:42:30 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: References: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> <8204a4fe0810291034i7a5609a4qa6f47e257fef3930@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's an exercise in futility... Only a masochist would deal with Nagios for any length of time :) Dan. > From: olaf at vilerichard.com > To: fulko.hew at gmail.com > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:37:36 -0400 > CC: toronto-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [tpm] meeting this week? > > > On 29-Oct-08, at 1:34 PM, Fulko Hew wrote: > > > > > > > I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) > > > > Yes, I did corner someone into giving a talk in exchange for a book, > > but fortunately for them, I don't remember who, and I don't remember > > for what. > > So unless they volunteer... > > I thought it was about writing custom Nagios plugins? > > -- > Olaf Alders > olaf at vilerichard.com > > http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock > http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm _________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ja_harris at rogers.com Wed Oct 29 11:23:11 2008 From: ja_harris at rogers.com (Jim Harris) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <254788.24256.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I thought it was Seneca. --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Olaf Alders wrote: From: Olaf Alders Subject: Re: [tpm] meeting this week? To: "Fulko Hew" Cc: toronto-pm at pm.org Received: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 5:37 PM On 29-Oct-08, at 1:34 PM, Fulko Hew wrote: > > > > I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) > > Yes, I did corner someone into giving a talk in exchange for a book, > but fortunately for them, I don't remember who, and I don't remember > for what. > So unless they volunteer... I thought it was about writing custom Nagios plugins? -- Olaf Alders olaf at vilerichard.com http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard _______________________________________________ toronto-pm mailing list toronto-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arocker at vex.net Wed Oct 29 12:14:01 2008 From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: References: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> <8204a4fe0810291034i7a5609a4qa6f47e257fef3930@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3b7bd75fd23e28535346c4e66dac5cec.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> > > That's an exercise in futility... > Only a masochist would deal with Nagios for any length of time :) > OK, how about a religious war dealing with alerting software? All those with an opinion express the unquestionable superiority of their system and the utter wretchedness of all others. (Standard geek conversational script.) (My current client seems quite happy with Nagios, BTW.) From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 12:28:11 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:28:11 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: <3b7bd75fd23e28535346c4e66dac5cec.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> References: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> <8204a4fe0810291034i7a5609a4qa6f47e257fef3930@mail.gmail.com> <3b7bd75fd23e28535346c4e66dac5cec.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: Just wait, he'll get sick of nagios soon enough. :) Anyhow, we could have any number of "holy wars", but let's not. There must be any number of things which could be beneficial. Is there a "perl on rails" yet? Dan. > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:14:01 -0400 > From: arocker at vex.net > To: toronto-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [tpm] meeting this week? > > > > > That's an exercise in futility... > > Only a masochist would deal with Nagios for any length of time :) > > > OK, how about a religious war dealing with alerting software? All those > with an opinion express the unquestionable superiority of their system and > the utter wretchedness of all others. (Standard geek conversational > script.) > (My current client seems quite happy with Nagios, BTW.) > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm _________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam.prime at utoronto.ca Wed Oct 29 12:31:02 2008 From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:31:02 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: References: <20081029130444.5294837d@caliope> <8204a4fe0810291034i7a5609a4qa6f47e257fef3930@mail.gmail.com> <3b7bd75fd23e28535346c4e66dac5cec.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> Message-ID: <4908B9F6.9060007@utoronto.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Just wait, he'll get sick of nagios soon enough. :) > > Anyhow, we could have any number of "holy wars", but let's not. > > There must be any number of things which could be beneficial. > Is there a "perl on rails" yet? > > Dan. Catalyst is probably as close as you're currently going to get. http://www.catalystframework.org/ I personally have no experience with it. adam From magog at the-wire.com Wed Oct 29 14:25:24 2008 From: magog at the-wire.com (Michael Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:25:24 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: <254788.24256.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <254788.24256.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081029172524.7ba30bd6@caliope> Okay, it looks like there's no special event planned. I will send out notice that there's a meeting with no topic. Not that this will amount to much notice. I'm sorry. Have I mentioned yet that the meeting-announcement-monkey job is currently up for grabs? Michael On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Jim Harris wrote: > I thought it was Seneca. > > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Olaf Alders wrote: > > From: Olaf Alders > Subject: Re: [tpm] meeting this week? > To: "Fulko Hew" > Cc: toronto-pm at pm.org > Received: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 5:37 PM > > On 29-Oct-08, at 1:34 PM, Fulko Hew wrote: > > > > > > > I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) > > > > Yes, I did corner someone into giving a talk in exchange for a book, > > but fortunately for them, I don't remember who, and I don't > remember > > for what. > > So unless they volunteer... > > I thought it was about writing custom Nagios plugins? > > -- > Olaf Alders > olaf at vilerichard.com > > http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock > http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard > > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm -- Michael Graham From zoffix at zoffix.com Wed Oct 29 14:35:36 2008 From: zoffix at zoffix.com (Zoffix Znet) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:35:36 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: <20081029172524.7ba30bd6@caliope> References: <254788.24256.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20081029172524.7ba30bd6@caliope> Message-ID: <1225316136.8171.1.camel@zoflap> How would that monkey know about upcoming meetings? On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 17:25 -0400, Michael Graham wrote: > > Okay, it looks like there's no special event planned. I will send out notice > that there's a meeting with no topic. > > Not that this will amount to much notice. I'm sorry. Have I mentioned > yet that the meeting-announcement-monkey job is currently up for grabs? > > > Michael > > > > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) > Jim Harris wrote: > > > I thought it was Seneca. > > > > > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Olaf Alders wrote: > > > > From: Olaf Alders > > Subject: Re: [tpm] meeting this week? > > To: "Fulko Hew" > > Cc: toronto-pm at pm.org > > Received: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 5:37 PM > > > > On 29-Oct-08, at 1:34 PM, Fulko Hew wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I seem to recall someone got a book in exchange for a talk. :) > > > > > > Yes, I did corner someone into giving a talk in exchange for a book, > > > but fortunately for them, I don't remember who, and I don't > > remember > > > for what. > > > So unless they volunteer... > > > > I thought it was about writing custom Nagios plugins? > > > > -- > > Olaf Alders > > olaf at vilerichard.com > > > > http://www.vilerichard.com -- folk rock > > http://cdbaby.com/cd/vilerichard > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > toronto-pm mailing list > > toronto-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > From yam at nerd.cx Wed Oct 29 14:44:18 2008 From: yam at nerd.cx (William Witteman) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:44:18 -0400 Subject: [tpm] meeting this week? In-Reply-To: <1225316136.8171.1.camel@zoflap> References: <254788.24256.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20081029172524.7ba30bd6@caliope> <1225316136.8171.1.camel@zoflap> Message-ID: <20081029214418.GA23641@sillyrabbi.dyndns.org> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 05:35:36PM -0400, Zoffix Znet wrote: >How would that monkey know about upcoming meetings? >On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 17:25 -0400, Michael Graham wrote: >> >> Not that this will amount to much notice. I'm sorry. Have I mentioned >> yet that the meeting-announcement-monkey job is currently up for grabs? Um, bananagrams? -- yours, William From magog at the-wire.com Wed Oct 29 15:35:44 2008 From: magog at the-wire.com (Michael Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:35:44 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Next Meeting Thursday 30 Oct (Tomorrow) Message-ID: <20081029183544.0d3de540@caliope> (These details are also on the TPM web site: http://to.pm.org/) The next meeting is this Thursday, 30 October (Tomorrow!). Like the subject says, our @topics = (); So come out to the meeting and help push, unshift and splice all manner of Perl-related things to the @topics array. Or just come for the beer afterwards. Date: Thursday 30 Oct 2008 Time: 6:45pm Where: 2 Bloor Street West (NW corner of Yonge/Bloor, skyscraper with the CIBC logo on top) Classroom TBA =================================================================== Note: The elevators in the building are "locked down" after 5:30pm to people without building access cards. Leading up to the meeting someone will come down to the main floor lobby every few minutes to ferry people upstairs. After 19:00, you can reach the access-card-carrying guy via a cell phone number that we'll leave with security in the front lobby. The room and floor numbers will be left with security too. -- Michael Graham From arocker at vex.net Wed Oct 29 16:26:19 2008 From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tpm] Next Meeting Thursday 30 Oct (Tomorrow) In-Reply-To: <20081029183544.0d3de540@caliope> References: <20081029183544.0d3de540@caliope> Message-ID: <49bd95f8a555aebde673e696f9a5985d.squirrel@webmail.vex.net> I suggest that some program planning should be on the agenda. From quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 12:19:53 2008 From: quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com (Quantum Mechanic) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:19:53 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk audio? Message-ID: <77f3972e0810301219y3ea1a6cbj1534ca2553f96ef7@mail.gmail.com> Was there anything uploaded/recorded for "Damian Conway, Aluminum Millinery, and the Thermodynamics of Paranoia"? -- -QM Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 12:21:17 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:21:17 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though Message-ID: Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like I'll be unable to attend tonight. However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can volunteer to put something together about Moose for next month or whenever after. After my lightening talk and continued hacking on Moose::CAP I've learned a lot more (and realized some stupid mistakes in what I was doing) and can probably help others get a start on things. I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've actually applied for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've actually renamed it Sanguine (provided the PAUSE admins accept me and approve the new namespace). I've also incorporated CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward (sorry for stealing Michael... but I give credit!), CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not sure if Cees is on here... but I've stolen from him in other places too) as well as incorporated a stash and TT. I've also ported: CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH CGI::Application::Plugin::Session CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs of the plugin which could be of interest. So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. Thanks, Dave -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ejanev at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 14:01:51 2008 From: ejanev at gmail.com (Emil Janev) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:01:51 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, It seems like an interesting topic to me. Regards, Emil On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Dave Doyle wrote: > Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like I'll be > unable to attend tonight. > > However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can volunteer to put > something together about Moose for next month or whenever after. After my > lightening talk and continued hacking on Moose::CAP I've learned a lot more > (and realized some stupid mistakes in what I was doing) and can probably > help others get a start on things. > > I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've actually applied > for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've actually renamed it Sanguine > (provided the PAUSE admins accept me and approve the new namespace). I've > also incorporated CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward (sorry for stealing > Michael... but I give credit!), CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not > sure if Cees is on here... but I've stolen from him in other places too) as > well as incorporated a stash and TT. I've also ported: > > CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH > CGI::Application::Plugin::Session > CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM > CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm > > to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs of the plugin > which could be of interest. > > So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. > > Thanks, > Dave > > -- > dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > > -- Emil Janev From magog at the-wire.com Thu Oct 30 14:08:14 2008 From: magog at the-wire.com (Michael Graham) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:08:14 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> You have my blessing for anything you steal. I know you're going for 100% compatibility, but it might be a good project for doing some refactoring of some of the rough edges in cgiapp... Michael On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:21:17 -0400 "Dave Doyle" wrote: > Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like > I'll be unable to attend tonight. > > However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can volunteer > to put something together about Moose for next month or whenever > after. After my lightening talk and continued hacking on Moose::CAP > I've learned a lot more (and realized some stupid mistakes in what I > was doing) and can probably help others get a start on things. > > I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've actually > applied for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've actually renamed > it Sanguine (provided the PAUSE admins accept me and approve the new > namespace). I've also incorporated CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward > (sorry for stealing Michael... but I give credit!), > CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not sure if Cees is on > here... but I've stolen from him in other places too) as well as > incorporated a stash and TT. I've also ported: > > CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH > CGI::Application::Plugin::Session > CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM > CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm > > to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs of the > plugin which could be of interest. > > So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. > > Thanks, > Dave > -- Michael Graham From fulko.hew at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 17:21:41 2008 From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:21:41 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Lightning Talk audio? In-Reply-To: <77f3972e0810301219y3ea1a6cbj1534ca2553f96ef7@mail.gmail.com> References: <77f3972e0810301219y3ea1a6cbj1534ca2553f96ef7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8204a4fe0810301721m70dc29f9oecf4155a472b6017@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Quantum Mechanic < quantum.mechanic.1964 at gmail.com> wrote: > Was there anything uploaded/recorded for "Damian Conway, Aluminum > Millinery, and the Thermodynamics of Paranoia"? Sorry... I'm afraid you missed a humorous 5 minutes of semi-random/semi-related brain waves emanating from Alan. (I guess his aluminum millinery didn't prevent _those_ brain waves from escaping his cranium.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ibrayem at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 08:31:22 2008 From: ibrayem at gmail.com (Ibrahim Amin) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:31:22 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Spreadsheet::WriteExcel and Spreadsheet::ParseExcel Message-ID: I am getting folowing error: Input/output error at readConfig.pl line 32. The code is as follow: unless(defined($wb = $parser->Parse("/Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls"))){ die "$!"; } Can someone please help me? -- Yours truly, Ibrahim Amin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfowle at navicominc.com Fri Oct 31 08:36:19 2008 From: mfowle at navicominc.com (Mark Fowle) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:36:19 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Spreadsheet::WriteExcel and Spreadsheet::ParseExcel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA5425832F1@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> I think it's telling you that /Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls does not exit. On the command line try ls /Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls Maybe you want ./Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls Code wise you might want My $file = "/Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls" die ("no such file $file\n") unless (-e $file ); unless(defined($wb = $parser->Parse($file"))){ die "$!"; } ________________________________ From: toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org [mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Ibrahim Amin Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 11:31 AM To: toronto-pm at pm.org Subject: [tpm] Spreadsheet::WriteExcel and Spreadsheet::ParseExcel I am getting folowing error: Input/output error at readConfig.pl line 32. The code is as follow: unless(defined($wb = $parser->Parse("/Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls"))){ die "$!"; } Can someone please help me? -- Yours truly, Ibrahim Amin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ibrayem at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 08:46:26 2008 From: ibrayem at gmail.com (Ibrahim Amin) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:46:26 -0400 Subject: [tpm] toronto-pm Digest, Vol 19, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Mark for quick response. However, it turns out that the shared folder was not mounted due to some problem on the server yesterday. By the way is there any debugger available for Perl scripts. I used -d option in perl but I don't know the commands like how to step over or mark a line. Thank you. > From: "Mark Fowle" > To: "Ibrahim Amin" , > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:36:19 -0400 > Subject: Re: [tpm] Spreadsheet::WriteExcel and Spreadsheet::ParseExcel > > I think it's telling you that /Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls does not exit. > > > > On the command line try ls /Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls > > > > Maybe you want ./Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls > > > > > > Code wise you might want > > My $file = "/Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls" > > die ("no such file $file\n") unless (-e $file ); > > unless(defined($wb = $parser->Parse($file"))){ > die "$!"; > } > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfowle at navicominc.com Fri Oct 31 08:51:47 2008 From: mfowle at navicominc.com (Mark Fowle) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:51:47 -0400 Subject: [tpm] toronto-pm Digest, Vol 19, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <759E3F14A23281479A85A082BBCFA5425832F7@sbsa.NavicomInc.local> I don't use the debugger so am not able to help on that front. If this is a standard script in your environment you might want to include the -e test but instead of just dying then do a test of the mount point - to print out better error messages. ________________________________ From: toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org [mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+mfowle=navicominc.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Ibrahim Amin Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 11:46 AM To: toronto-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [tpm] toronto-pm Digest, Vol 19, Issue 20 Thank you Mark for quick response. However, it turns out that the shared folder was not mounted due to some problem on the server yesterday. By the way is there any debugger available for Perl scripts. I used -d option in perl but I don't know the commands like how to step over or mark a line. Thank you. From: "Mark Fowle" To: "Ibrahim Amin" , Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:36:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [tpm] Spreadsheet::WriteExcel and Spreadsheet::ParseExcel I think it's telling you that /Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls does not exit. On the command line try ls /Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls Maybe you want ./Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls Code wise you might want My $file = "/Server1/sambaFolder/test.xls" die ("no such file $file\n") unless (-e $file ); unless(defined($wb = $parser->Parse($file"))){ die "$!"; } -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From talexb at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 08:54:07 2008 From: talexb at gmail.com (Alex Beamish) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:54:07 -0400 Subject: [tpm] toronto-pm Digest, Vol 19, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ibrahim, someguy at foo:/home/bar $ perl -de 1 Loading DB routines from perl5db.pl version 1.28 Editor support available. Enter h or `h h' for help, or `man perldebug' for more help. main::(-e:1): 1 DB<1> h List/search source lines: Control script execution: l [ln|sub] List source code T Stack trace - or . List previous/current line s [expr] Single step [in expr] v [line] View around line n [expr] Next, steps over subs f filename View source in file Repeat last n or s /pattern/ ?patt? Search forw/backw r Return from subroutine M Show module versions c [ln|sub] Continue until position Debugger controls: L List break/watch/actions o [...] Set debugger options t [expr] Toggle trace [trace expr] <[<]|{[{]|>[>] [cmd] Do pre/post-prompt b [ln|event|sub] [cnd] Set breakpoint ! [N|pat] Redo a previous command B ln|* Delete a/all breakpoints H [-num] Display last num commands a [ln] cmd Do cmd before line = [a val] Define/list an alias A ln|* Delete a/all actions h [db_cmd] Get help on command w expr Add a watch expression h h Complete help page W expr|* Delete a/all watch exprs |[|]db_cmd Send output to pager ![!] syscmd Run cmd in a subprocess q or ^D Quit R Attempt a restart Data Examination: expr Execute perl code, also see: s,n,t expr x|m expr Evals expr in list context, dumps the result or lists methods. p expr Print expression (uses script's current package). S [[!]pat] List subroutine names [not] matching pattern V [Pk [Vars]] List Variables in Package. Vars can be ~pattern or !pattern. X [Vars] Same as "V current_package [Vars]". i class inheritance tree. y [n [Vars]] List lexicals in higher scope . Vars same as V. e Display thread id E Display all thread ids. For more help, type h cmd_letter, or run man perldebug for all docs. DB<1> -- Alex Beamish Toronto, Ontario aka talexb From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 08:55:48 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:55:48 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> References: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> Message-ID: Well, I've got virtually 100% now. The only thing it's not doing is allowing you to use QUERY, TMPL_PATH and PARAMS in the constructor (they must be lowercase). Full test suite is passing now. Any suggestions for improvement is more than welcome. :) As I said, I've incorporated TT and a stash. I was thinking of chucking the callback system altogether since Moose allows you run code before/after/around any method. Roles/Plugins that compose into the main class can use these hooks as well. I'm not sure if a plugin author would find that appealing though. I guess it depends. I've also made some minor cosmetic changes as I'm a fan of the ternary operator instead of if(condition) { x = something } else { x = something else}. So, anyone have a part of CGI::App that they particularly hate? :) I guess I'll see when i get my PAUSE id (how long does that take anyhow it's been a little bit but I haven't heard back?) i can throw it up on CPAN and see if anyone is interested. I'm kinda terrified to mention it on the CGI::App mailing list for fears of getting back "are you insane... lightweight web framework + moose = oxymoron!" This is, after all, going to be the first thing I try and put on CPAN. D On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Michael Graham wrote: > > > You have my blessing for anything you steal. I know you're going for 100% > compatibility, but it might be a good project for doing some refactoring of > some of the rough edges in cgiapp... > > > Michael > > > On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:21:17 -0400 > "Dave Doyle" wrote: > > > Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like > > I'll be unable to attend tonight. > > > > However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can volunteer > > to put something together about Moose for next month or whenever > > after. After my lightening talk and continued hacking on Moose::CAP > > I've learned a lot more (and realized some stupid mistakes in what I > > was doing) and can probably help others get a start on things. > > > > I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've actually > > applied for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've actually renamed > > it Sanguine (provided the PAUSE admins accept me and approve the new > > namespace). I've also incorporated CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward > > (sorry for stealing Michael... but I give credit!), > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not sure if Cees is on > > here... but I've stolen from him in other places too) as well as > > incorporated a stash and TT. I've also ported: > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Session > > CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM > > CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm > > > > to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs of the > > plugin which could be of interest. > > > > So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. > > > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > > > -- > Michael Graham > -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam.prime at utoronto.ca Fri Oct 31 11:16:43 2008 From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:16:43 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: References: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> Message-ID: <490B4B8B.5090604@utoronto.ca> When I signed up for my PAUSE account it took 27hrs for me to get the 'Welcome' email. I got the 'request notification' email right away. When i registered the Namespace for Apache2::Filter::TagAware, it took 6 days for the registration to be accepted. You can upload code into CPAN in your prefered namespace without actually have registered it, so if your ready to upload it, you should probably just upload it. Adam Dave Doyle wrote: > Well, I've got virtually 100% now. The only thing it's not doing is > allowing you to use QUERY, TMPL_PATH and PARAMS in the constructor > (they must be lowercase). > > Full test suite is passing now. Any suggestions for improvement is > more than welcome. :) As I said, I've incorporated TT and a stash. I > was thinking of chucking the callback system altogether since Moose > allows you run code before/after/around any method. Roles/Plugins > that compose into the main class can use these hooks as well. I'm not > sure if a plugin author would find that appealing though. I guess it > depends. I've also made some minor cosmetic changes as I'm a fan of > the ternary operator instead of if(condition) { x = something } else { > x = something else}. > > So, anyone have a part of CGI::App that they particularly hate? :) > > I guess I'll see when i get my PAUSE id (how long does that take > anyhow it's been a little bit but I haven't heard back?) i can throw > it up on CPAN and see if anyone is interested. I'm kinda terrified to > mention it on the CGI::App mailing list for fears of getting back "are > you insane... lightweight web framework + moose = oxymoron!" This is, > after all, going to be the first thing I try and put on CPAN. > > D > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Michael Graham > wrote: > > > > You have my blessing for anything you steal. I know you're going > for 100% > compatibility, but it might be a good project for doing some > refactoring of > some of the rough edges in cgiapp... > > > Michael > > > On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:21:17 -0400 > "Dave Doyle" > wrote: > > > Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like > > I'll be unable to attend tonight. > > > > However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can volunteer > > to put something together about Moose for next month or whenever > > after. After my lightening talk and continued hacking on Moose::CAP > > I've learned a lot more (and realized some stupid mistakes in what I > > was doing) and can probably help others get a start on things. > > > > I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've actually > > applied for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've actually renamed > > it Sanguine (provided the PAUSE admins accept me and approve the new > > namespace). I've also incorporated > CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward > > (sorry for stealing Michael... but I give credit!), > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not sure if Cees is on > > here... but I've stolen from him in other places too) as well as > > incorporated a stash and TT. I've also ported: > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Session > > CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM > > CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm > > > > to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs > of the > > plugin which could be of interest. > > > > So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. > > > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > > > -- > Michael Graham > > > > > > -- > dave.s.doyle at gmail.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > toronto-pm mailing list > toronto-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm > From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 12:40:59 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:40:59 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: <490B4B8B.5090604@utoronto.ca> References: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> <490B4B8B.5090604@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Ah, well I got the request notification email right away but it's been several days since with no other activity. Don't actually have the PAUSE account, just applied for it. D On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Adam Prime wrote: > When I signed up for my PAUSE account it took 27hrs for me to get the > 'Welcome' email. I got the 'request notification' email right away. > > When i registered the Namespace for Apache2::Filter::TagAware, it took 6 > days for the registration to be accepted. > > You can upload code into CPAN in your prefered namespace without actually > have registered it, so if your ready to upload it, you should probably just > upload it. > > Adam > > > Dave Doyle wrote: > >> Well, I've got virtually 100% now. The only thing it's not doing is >> allowing you to use QUERY, TMPL_PATH and PARAMS in the constructor (they >> must be lowercase). >> >> Full test suite is passing now. Any suggestions for improvement is more >> than welcome. :) As I said, I've incorporated TT and a stash. I was >> thinking of chucking the callback system altogether since Moose allows you >> run code before/after/around any method. Roles/Plugins that compose into >> the main class can use these hooks as well. I'm not sure if a plugin author >> would find that appealing though. I guess it depends. I've also made some >> minor cosmetic changes as I'm a fan of the ternary operator instead of >> if(condition) { x = something } else { x = something else}. >> >> So, anyone have a part of CGI::App that they particularly hate? :) >> >> I guess I'll see when i get my PAUSE id (how long does that take anyhow >> it's been a little bit but I haven't heard back?) i can throw it up on CPAN >> and see if anyone is interested. I'm kinda terrified to mention it on the >> CGI::App mailing list for fears of getting back "are you insane... >> lightweight web framework + moose = oxymoron!" This is, after all, going to >> be the first thing I try and put on CPAN. >> >> D >> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Michael Graham > magog at the-wire.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> You have my blessing for anything you steal. I know you're going >> for 100% >> compatibility, but it might be a good project for doing some >> refactoring of >> some of the rough edges in cgiapp... >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:21:17 -0400 >> "Dave Doyle" > > wrote: >> >> > Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like >> > I'll be unable to attend tonight. >> > >> > However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can volunteer >> > to put something together about Moose for next month or whenever >> > after. After my lightening talk and continued hacking on Moose::CAP >> > I've learned a lot more (and realized some stupid mistakes in what I >> > was doing) and can probably help others get a start on things. >> > >> > I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've actually >> > applied for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've actually renamed >> > it Sanguine (provided the PAUSE admins accept me and approve the new >> > namespace). I've also incorporated >> CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward >> > (sorry for stealing Michael... but I give credit!), >> > CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not sure if Cees is on >> > here... but I've stolen from him in other places too) as well as >> > incorporated a stash and TT. I've also ported: >> > >> > CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH >> > CGI::Application::Plugin::Session >> > CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM >> > CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm >> > >> > to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs >> of the >> > plugin which could be of interest. >> > >> > So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Dave >> > >> >> >> -- >> Michael Graham > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> dave.s.doyle at gmail.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> toronto-pm mailing list >> toronto-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm >> >> > > -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From magog at the-wire.com Fri Oct 31 13:05:25 2008 From: magog at the-wire.com (Michael Graham) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:05:25 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: References: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> Message-ID: <20081031160525.6bbf64ce@caliope> > So, anyone have a part of CGI::App that they particularly hate? :) I can't remember all the details of what people were talking about. I do remember: * the run method does too much and is hard to override - it should be broken up into smaller, easily-overridable methods. (This might have been done already.) * HTML::Template is too tightly coupled * managing HTTP headers is a complete pain > I'm kinda terrified to mention it on the CGI::App mailing list for > fears of getting back "are you insane... lightweight web framework + > moose = oxymoron!" As long as you're careful to label it a research project and not a replacement, I don't think you'll get much flamage on the CGI::App list. Also, I think Mark Stosberg started a rewrite of CGI::App awhile back in Moose, didn't he? Or was it in in Pugs? Michael On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:55:48 -0400 "Dave Doyle" wrote: > Well, I've got virtually 100% now. The only thing it's not doing is > allowing you to use QUERY, TMPL_PATH and PARAMS in the constructor > (they must be lowercase). > > Full test suite is passing now. Any suggestions for improvement is > more than welcome. :) As I said, I've incorporated TT and a stash. > I was thinking of chucking the callback system altogether since Moose > allows you run code before/after/around any method. Roles/Plugins > that compose into the main class can use these hooks as well. I'm > not sure if a plugin author would find that appealing though. I > guess it depends. I've also made some minor cosmetic changes as I'm > a fan of the ternary operator instead of if(condition) { x = > something } else { x = something else}. > > So, anyone have a part of CGI::App that they particularly hate? :) > > I guess I'll see when i get my PAUSE id (how long does that take > anyhow it's been a little bit but I haven't heard back?) i can throw > it up on CPAN and see if anyone is interested. I'm kinda terrified > to mention it on the CGI::App mailing list for fears of getting back > "are you insane... lightweight web framework + moose = oxymoron!" > This is, after all, going to be the first thing I try and put on CPAN. > > D > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Michael Graham > wrote: > > > > > > > You have my blessing for anything you steal. I know you're going > > for 100% compatibility, but it might be a good project for doing > > some refactoring of some of the rough edges in cgiapp... > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:21:17 -0400 > > "Dave Doyle" wrote: > > > > > Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like > > > I'll be unable to attend tonight. > > > > > > However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can > > > volunteer to put something together about Moose for next month or > > > whenever after. After my lightening talk and continued hacking > > > on Moose::CAP I've learned a lot more (and realized some stupid > > > mistakes in what I was doing) and can probably help others get a > > > start on things. > > > > > > I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've > > > actually applied for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've > > > actually renamed it Sanguine (provided the PAUSE admins accept me > > > and approve the new namespace). I've also incorporated > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward (sorry for stealing Michael... > > > but I give credit!), CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not > > > sure if Cees is on here... but I've stolen from him in other > > > places too) as well as incorporated a stash and TT. I've also > > > ported: > > > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Session > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm > > > > > > to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs of > > > the plugin which could be of interest. > > > > > > So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael Graham > > > > > -- Michael Graham From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 13:20:06 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:20:06 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: <20081031160525.6bbf64ce@caliope> References: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> <20081031160525.6bbf64ce@caliope> Message-ID: The run method has been broken up a bit but into __get_body and __get_runmode. Not particularly overridable but it has been broken out. The run method is almost nothing more than a list of callbacks now. Mark did change from Class::ISA to Class::MOP (Moose underpinings) to examine the parent classess of the currently running app (which was used when doing callbacks) but reverted back to Class::ISA after he determined there was a performance hit when using Class::MOP. I wasn't aware that he had been playing with a full Moose implementation though. Also, I added a function for headers after reading Cees complaint in the comments of CGI::Application::Plugin::Session. That is, header_props clobbers all the current headers, header_add will merge together multiple headers of the same name if needed but doesn't clobber the previous values. I've added header_set which is essentially the same as head_add but it does clobber each individual key. For example if you did $self->header_add( -cookie => $cookie ) and then called $self->header_add( -cook => $another_cookie ), the two would be rolled together and both cookies set. With header_set, if you do $self->header_add( -cookie => $cookie ) and then later did $self->header_set( -cookie => $another_cookie ), the $cookie gets clobbered. This way you don't have to do a full header_props call to replace one particular header. The adapted version of CAP::Plugin::Session actually uses that now. As to HTML::Template coupling... shall I incorporate CAP::Plugin::AnyTemplate into the core? :) My shamelessness and theivery knows no bounds. D On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Michael Graham wrote: > > > So, anyone have a part of CGI::App that they particularly hate? :) > > I can't remember all the details of what people were talking about. I > do remember: > > * the run method does too much and is hard to override - it should be > broken up into smaller, easily-overridable methods. (This might > have been done already.) > * HTML::Template is too tightly coupled > * managing HTTP headers is a complete pain > > > I'm kinda terrified to mention it on the CGI::App mailing list for > > fears of getting back "are you insane... lightweight web framework + > > moose = oxymoron!" > > As long as you're careful to label it a research project and not a > replacement, I don't think you'll get much flamage on the CGI::App > list. > > Also, I think Mark Stosberg started a rewrite of CGI::App awhile back in > Moose, didn't he? Or was it in in Pugs? > > > Michael > > > > On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:55:48 -0400 > "Dave Doyle" wrote: > > > Well, I've got virtually 100% now. The only thing it's not doing is > > allowing you to use QUERY, TMPL_PATH and PARAMS in the constructor > > (they must be lowercase). > > > > Full test suite is passing now. Any suggestions for improvement is > > more than welcome. :) As I said, I've incorporated TT and a stash. > > I was thinking of chucking the callback system altogether since Moose > > allows you run code before/after/around any method. Roles/Plugins > > that compose into the main class can use these hooks as well. I'm > > not sure if a plugin author would find that appealing though. I > > guess it depends. I've also made some minor cosmetic changes as I'm > > a fan of the ternary operator instead of if(condition) { x = > > something } else { x = something else}. > > > > So, anyone have a part of CGI::App that they particularly hate? :) > > > > I guess I'll see when i get my PAUSE id (how long does that take > > anyhow it's been a little bit but I haven't heard back?) i can throw > > it up on CPAN and see if anyone is interested. I'm kinda terrified > > to mention it on the CGI::App mailing list for fears of getting back > > "are you insane... lightweight web framework + moose = oxymoron!" > > This is, after all, going to be the first thing I try and put on CPAN. > > > > D > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Michael Graham > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You have my blessing for anything you steal. I know you're going > > > for 100% compatibility, but it might be a good project for doing > > > some refactoring of some of the rough edges in cgiapp... > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:21:17 -0400 > > > "Dave Doyle" wrote: > > > > > > > Well... despite my message asking about the meeting it looks like > > > > I'll be unable to attend tonight. > > > > > > > > However, if we're running into a shortage of talks, I can > > > > volunteer to put something together about Moose for next month or > > > > whenever after. After my lightening talk and continued hacking > > > > on Moose::CAP I've learned a lot more (and realized some stupid > > > > mistakes in what I was doing) and can probably help others get a > > > > start on things. > > > > > > > > I can also do more on what I've done with Moose::CAP. I've > > > > actually applied for a PAUSE id to upload it to CPAN. I've > > > > actually renamed it Sanguine (provided the PAUSE admins accept me > > > > and approve the new namespace). I've also incorporated > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Forward (sorry for stealing Michael... > > > > but I give credit!), CGI::Application::Plugin::Redirect (I'm not > > > > sure if Cees is on here... but I've stolen from him in other > > > > places too) as well as incorporated a stash and TT. I've also > > > > ported: > > > > > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::DBH > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::Session > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::ValidateRM > > > > CGI::Application::Plugin::FillInForm > > > > > > > > to Moose roles using different patterns depending on the needs of > > > > the plugin which could be of interest. > > > > > > > > So if any of that sounds of interest, let me know. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Michael Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Michael Graham > -- dave.s.doyle at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.s.doyle at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 13:28:25 2008 From: dave.s.doyle at gmail.com (Dave Doyle) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:28:25 -0400 Subject: [tpm] Talk volunteer... not for today though In-Reply-To: References: <20081030170814.232db799@caliope> <20081031160525.6bbf64ce@caliope> Message-ID: Also, if anyone wants to take a look, I've got Moose::CAP (which I'm calling Sanguine... because I've got no idea what to name it really or any idea if I should put it in some existing namespace) in github. http://github.com/ddoyle/sanguine/tree/master I haven't got the 4 plugins (session, validaterm, fillinform, dbh) yet as I figured I'd need to put them in as their own distributions. It's not a CPAN ready dist anyway. I need to write some more tests as well as setup stuff with module-starter and learn about how to setup a proper distribution. I also need to expand the docs and properly credit folks. But, it's there for perusing and download. 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