From weborders at occamstoothbrush.com  Mon Apr  2 23:16:01 2007
From: weborders at occamstoothbrush.com (Michael Graham)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 02:16:01 -0400
Subject: [tpm] test the second
Message-ID: <20070403021601.56264bf9@caliope>

test2

-- 
Michael Graham <magog at the-wire.com>

From indy at indigostar.com  Tue Apr  3 12:16:42 2007
From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:16:42 -0400
Subject: [tpm] TEST 316
References: <20070331153613.3bf6e4ec@caliope><000e01c7753a$6a6d9d30$6600a8c0@roadhog><20070403023247.3644017d@caliope><004101c775fa$366dae60$6600a8c0@roadhog><20070403113022.2a6c3b9e@caliope><010001c77607$5450f970$6600a8c0@roadhog><20070403121422.2f643a49@caliope><015701c7760c$aefa1aa0$6600a8c0@roadhog><20070403135501.4ecd9f85@caliope><019a01c7761d$0f056750$6600a8c0@roadhog>
	<20070403150859.27e465df@caliope>
Message-ID: <01ac01c77624$9ce286a0$6600a8c0@roadhog>

TEST 316

Indy Singh
IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com


From rdice at pobox.com  Sun Apr  8 19:22:28 2007
From: rdice at pobox.com (Richard Dice)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 22:22:28 -0400
Subject: [tpm] 99 Problems in Perl 6
Message-ID: <5bef4baf0704081922x382a38f4icde975a18812645e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

There was a request at the last meeting to share the URL for the 99 Problems
in Perl 6 exercise.  Here it is --

http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2006/12/99_problems_in_perl_6.html

To actually get the 99 problems, just get a svn checkout of the pugs source,
per:

svn co http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/

Inside that checkout you'll be able to find the directory --
pugs/t/examples/99problems

Cheers,
Richard
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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Tue Apr 10 11:05:35 2007
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:05:35 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
Message-ID: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>

I always seem to have a problem dereferencing anonymous hashes...
(a mental block, or I'm just mental!)

In a subroutine I create the thing as such:

sub foo {
  my $device = {};                           # create an anonymous hash
  $config{$cfg}{device} = \$device;    # And stick it into the major
data structure

$device{$devId}{status) = 'ok';         # and populate the anonymous hash
$device{$devId}{msgCnt}++;
}

Then later on I want to extract the status:

my %device = ${$config{$cfg}{device}};
$status = $device{$devId}{status};

but this isn't quite right.  ;-(

From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Tue Apr 10 11:19:23 2007
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (adam.prime at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:19:23 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070410141923.ho1i5zqhzegwcoc8@webmail.utoronto.ca>


Do you really want a reference to a reference to a hash here?

$config{$cfg}{device} = \$device;

That looks like the root of the problem to me.  should be:

$config{$cfg}{device} = $device;

to work with the rest of your code i'd think, not having tested anything.

Adam





Quoting Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com>:

> I always seem to have a problem dereferencing anonymous hashes...
> (a mental block, or I'm just mental!)
>
> In a subroutine I create the thing as such:
>
> sub foo {
>   my $device = {};                           # create an anonymous hash
>   $config{$cfg}{device} = \$device;    # And stick it into the major
> data structure
>
> $device{$devId}{status) = 'ok';         # and populate the anonymous hash
> $device{$devId}{msgCnt}++;
> }
>
> Then later on I want to extract the status:
>
> my %device = ${$config{$cfg}{device}};
> $status = $device{$devId}{status};
>
> but this isn't quite right.  ;-(
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>




From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Tue Apr 10 11:58:33 2007
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:58:33 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/10/07, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:
> I always seem to have a problem dereferencing anonymous hashes...
> (a mental block, or I'm just mental!)
>
> In a subroutine I create the thing as such:
>
> sub foo {
>   my $device = {};                           # create an anonymous hash
>   $config{$cfg}{device} = \$device;    # And stick it into the major data structure
>
> $device{$devId}{status) = 'ok';         # and populate the anonymous hash
> $device{$devId}{msgCnt}++;
> }
>
> Then later on I want to extract the status:
>
> my %device = ${$config{$cfg}{device}};
> $status = $device{$devId}{status};
>
> but this isn't quite right.  ;-(

Answering my own question...
I was close, but not cigar.  What I should have been using was:

my $device = ();
 ...
my %device = %{$config{$cfg}{device}};

because the reference I was trying to retrieve was a reference to a hash,
not a reference to a scalar as in my first 'n' tries.

I'm sure I had the dereference correct a number of times, but without
the anonymous hash creation correct at the same time, It didn't
work.... Nope, I just tried it as: my $device = {}; and that still
worked.  It makes me wonder then... whats the subtle difference
between
$x = () and $x = {} when dealing with hashes and their references?

From janes.rob at gmail.com  Tue Apr 10 12:00:14 2007
From: janes.rob at gmail.com (Rob Janes)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:00:14 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <20070410141923.ho1i5zqhzegwcoc8@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070410141923.ho1i5zqhzegwcoc8@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <83eac04d0704101200t6bc767f5w898efc7e5dc96369@mail.gmail.com>

ooh boy where do i start ...

sub foo {
 my $device = {};                           # create an anonymous rash
 $config{$cfg}{device} = $device;    # And stick it to the major
data structure

$$device{$devId}{status) = 'ok';         # fill up the anonymous rash
$$device{$devId}{msgCnt}++;
}

...

our %device;  # use strict or else
{ local *device = $config{$cfg}{device}; # an alias just for me
  $status = $device{$devId}{status}; # ahh, here it is
}

there you go!

On 4/10/07, adam.prime at utoronto.ca <adam.prime at utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Do you really want a reference to a reference to a hash here?
>
> $config{$cfg}{device} = \$device;
>
> That looks like the root of the problem to me.  should be:
>
> $config{$cfg}{device} = $device;
>
> to work with the rest of your code i'd think, not having tested anything.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com>:
>
> > I always seem to have a problem dereferencing anonymous hashes...
> > (a mental block, or I'm just mental!)
> >
> > In a subroutine I create the thing as such:
> >
> > sub foo {
> >   my $device = {};                           # create an anonymous hash
> >   $config{$cfg}{device} = \$device;    # And stick it into the major
> > data structure
> >
> > $device{$devId}{status) = 'ok';         # and populate the anonymous
> hash
> > $device{$devId}{msgCnt}++;
> > }
> >
> > Then later on I want to extract the status:
> >
> > my %device = ${$config{$cfg}{device}};
> > $status = $device{$devId}{status};
> >
> > but this isn't quite right.  ;-(
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From janes.rob at gmail.com  Tue Apr 10 12:03:49 2007
From: janes.rob at gmail.com (Rob Janes)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:03:49 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>

you're a php guy, right?

$x = (); is a list assignment to a scalar.  scalar conversion results in the
scalar ($x that is) being assigned the count of the number of items in the
list.  0 or zero.

$x = {}; assigns a reference to an anonymous hash.

On 4/10/07, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 4/10/07, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I always seem to have a problem dereferencing anonymous hashes...
> > (a mental block, or I'm just mental!)
> >
> > In a subroutine I create the thing as such:
> >
> > sub foo {
> >   my $device = {};                           # create an anonymous hash
> >   $config{$cfg}{device} = \$device;    # And stick it into the major
> data structure
> >
> > $device{$devId}{status) = 'ok';         # and populate the anonymous
> hash
> > $device{$devId}{msgCnt}++;
> > }
> >
> > Then later on I want to extract the status:
> >
> > my %device = ${$config{$cfg}{device}};
> > $status = $device{$devId}{status};
> >
> > but this isn't quite right.  ;-(
>
> Answering my own question...
> I was close, but not cigar.  What I should have been using was:
>
> my $device = ();
> ...
> my %device = %{$config{$cfg}{device}};
>
> because the reference I was trying to retrieve was a reference to a hash,
> not a reference to a scalar as in my first 'n' tries.
>
> I'm sure I had the dereference correct a number of times, but without
> the anonymous hash creation correct at the same time, It didn't
> work.... Nope, I just tried it as: my $device = {}; and that still
> worked.  It makes me wonder then... whats the subtle difference
> between
> $x = () and $x = {} when dealing with hashes and their references?
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>
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From fulko.hew at gmail.com  Tue Apr 10 12:25:48 2007
From: fulko.hew at gmail.com (Fulko Hew)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:25:48 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/10/07, Rob Janes <janes.rob at gmail.com> wrote:
> you're a php guy, right?

Nope.  Never seen PHP in my life... ain't gonna start now!

>  $x = (); is a list assignment to a scalar.  scalar conversion results in
> the scalar ($x that is) being assigned the count of the number of items in
> the list.  0 or zero.
>
>  $x = {}; assigns a reference to an anonymous hash.

OK, so I was getting frustrated and made a whole lot of transcription
errors to boot. :-(

The question should have been... whats the difference between:

%x = ();  and
%x = {};

because what fixed my problem was (transcribing correctly this time):

my %device = {};
$config{$cfg}{device} = \%device;
$device{$devid}{status} = 'OK';

...

my %device = %{$config{$cfg}{device}};
$status = $device{$devId}{status};

From james.a.graham at gmail.com  Tue Apr 10 12:39:29 2007
From: james.a.graham at gmail.com (Jim Graham)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:39:29 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <020801c77ba7$fa5be5f0$1901a8c0@mecano>

Hi

  Tricky one:

    %x = (); 

 is an empty hash. The () is a list, and assigning it to a hash creates an empty hash. The '=>' notation that we're used to for hash
creation is in fact just sugar for the "," list operator. So you can do:

 %x = ( 'foo' => 1, 'bar' => 2); #-- it's a hash

or

 %x = ( 'foo' , 1, 'bar', 2); #-- looks like an array, but it's also a hash

And get the same thing.

  %x = {};

is weird. The "{}" creates an anonymous hash. Then assigning it to a regular hash (%x) uses the anon-hash ref as the key, and undef
as the value.


In the Perl debugger:

>perl -demo
  DB<1> %x = {}

  DB<2> foreach my $k ( keys %x) { print "$k\n";}
HASH(0x1829fd0)

  Hope this helps;

  - jim

-----Original Message-----
From: toronto-pm-bounces+james.a.graham=gmail.com at pm.org [mailto:toronto-pm-bounces+james.a.graham=gmail.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Fulko Hew
Sent: April 10, 2007 3:26 PM
To: Rob Janes
Cc: tpm at to.pm.org
Subject: Re: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes

On 4/10/07, Rob Janes <janes.rob at gmail.com> wrote:
> you're a php guy, right?

Nope.  Never seen PHP in my life... ain't gonna start now!

>  $x = (); is a list assignment to a scalar.  scalar conversion results in
> the scalar ($x that is) being assigned the count of the number of items in
> the list.  0 or zero.
>
>  $x = {}; assigns a reference to an anonymous hash.

OK, so I was getting frustrated and made a whole lot of transcription
errors to boot. :-(

The question should have been... whats the difference between:

%x = ();  and
%x = {};

because what fixed my problem was (transcribing correctly this time):

my %device = {};
$config{$cfg}{device} = \%device;
$device{$devid}{status} = 'OK';

...

my %device = %{$config{$cfg}{device}};
$status = $device{$devId}{status};
_______________________________________________
toronto-pm mailing list
toronto-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm


From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Tue Apr 10 12:41:24 2007
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (adam.prime at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:24 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070410154124.03993sugw0ow8g4o@webmail.utoronto.ca>

Quoting Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com>:

>
> The question should have been... whats the difference between:
>
> %x = ();  and
> %x = {};
>

the first one is a normal assignment to a hash, the second one, i'm  
guessing is an assignment of a reference to a hash '{}' to a hash, so  
you get a hash with one key (the address of the anonymous hash) who's  
value is undef.

Basically you probably never (or rarely) want to do the second one.

Adam


From janes.rob at gmail.com  Tue Apr 10 13:21:35 2007
From: janes.rob at gmail.com (Rob Janes)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:21:35 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83eac04d0704101321k62a1c7e0h1a2ad1b340120d14@mail.gmail.com>

ouch.

try putting on use warnings when you do my %x = {};

also, dumping out %x should show a funky key with an undef value.

my %device = {};  ## this is the same as my %device = ( { } => undef );
$config{$cfg}{device} = \%device;  ## a reference to a hash with a reference
for a key
$device{$devid}{status} = 'OK';  ## this is ok, auto creates a hash within a
hash

you really should use

use warnings;
use strict;

at the top of your perl scripts.  it will help catch your errors before they
catch you.

On 4/10/07, Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 4/10/07, Rob Janes <janes.rob at gmail.com> wrote:
> > you're a php guy, right?
>
> Nope.  Never seen PHP in my life... ain't gonna start now!
>
> >  $x = (); is a list assignment to a scalar.  scalar conversion results
> in
> > the scalar ($x that is) being assigned the count of the number of items
> in
> > the list.  0 or zero.
> >
> >  $x = {}; assigns a reference to an anonymous hash.
>
> OK, so I was getting frustrated and made a whole lot of transcription
> errors to boot. :-(
>
> The question should have been... whats the difference between:
>
> %x = ();  and
> %x = {};
>
> because what fixed my problem was (transcribing correctly this time):
>
> my %device = {};
> $config{$cfg}{device} = \%device;
> $device{$devid}{status} = 'OK';
>
> ...
>
> my %device = %{$config{$cfg}{device}};
> $status = $device{$devId}{status};
>
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From sfryer at sourcery.ca  Tue Apr 10 13:23:27 2007
From: sfryer at sourcery.ca (Shaun Fryer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:23:27 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070410202327.GC31131@sourcery.ca>

On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 02:58:33PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> It makes me wonder then... whats the subtle difference
> between
> $x = () and $x = {} when dealing with hashes and their references?

@x = (); # this is an array
%x = (); # this is an array, in hash context
$x = \@x; # this is a reference to an array
$x = \%x; # this is a reference to a hash
$x = []; # this is a reference to an array
$x = {}; # this is a reference to a hash

So one might do this...

@x = qw( three element array );
$x = \@x;

...or...

$x = [ qw( three element array ) ]; # same thing

--
    Shaun Fryer
    tf: 866-920-9209

From sfryer at sourcery.ca  Tue Apr 10 13:29:25 2007
From: sfryer at sourcery.ca (Shaun Fryer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:29:25 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <20070410202327.GC31131@sourcery.ca>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070410202327.GC31131@sourcery.ca>
Message-ID: <20070410202925.GD31131@sourcery.ca>

# ah yes .. and I forgot the actual question. lol

%x = ( this => that );

# the value of 'this' can be obtained by doing this

$y = $x{this};

# howver as a hash reference...

$x = { this => that };

$y = $x->{this}; # you must use a 'pointer' to dereference the value

--
    Shaun Fryer
    tf: 866-920-9209

On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 04:23:27PM -0400, Shaun Fryer wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 02:58:33PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> > It makes me wonder then... whats the subtle difference
> > between
> > $x = () and $x = {} when dealing with hashes and their references?
> 
> @x = (); # this is an array
> %x = (); # this is an array, in hash context
> $x = \@x; # this is a reference to an array
> $x = \%x; # this is a reference to a hash
> $x = []; # this is a reference to an array
> $x = {}; # this is a reference to a hash
> 
> So one might do this...
> 
> @x = qw( three element array );
> $x = \@x;
> 
> ...or...
> 
> $x = [ qw( three element array ) ]; # same thing

From sfryer at sourcery.ca  Tue Apr 10 13:49:48 2007
From: sfryer at sourcery.ca (Shaun Fryer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:49:48 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <20070410202925.GD31131@sourcery.ca>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070410202327.GC31131@sourcery.ca>
	<20070410202925.GD31131@sourcery.ca>
Message-ID: <20070410204948.GE31131@sourcery.ca>

Sorry for innundating you with emails Fulko. :)

Perhaps of more value to consider (for those who don't know), is *why*
to use a reference versus an ordinary string/array/hash/whatever.
Consider this...

my %big_hash = ( ... );

$big_hash{foo} = 1;

# this makes a *totally seperate copy* of %big_hash in memory
my %copy_of_big_hash = %big_hash;

$copy_of_big_hash{foo} = 2;

# at this point $big_hash{foo} still equals 1

# this makes a reference pointing to the memory address where %big_hash is stored
my $ref_to_big_hash = \%big_hash;

$ref_to_big_hash->{foo} = 3;

# now $big_hash{foo} equals 3, but $copy_of_big_hash{foo} still equals 2

my $copy_of_ref_to_big_hash = $ref_to_big_hash;

$copy_of_ref_to_big_hash->{foo} = 4;

# now $big_hash{foo} equals 4, but $copy_of_big_hash{foo} still equals 2

Does that make sense? The same principal holds for array refs, blessed objects
and any other sort of "reference versus copy" situation.
--
    Shaun Fryer
    tf: 866-920-9209

On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 04:29:25PM -0400, Shaun Fryer wrote:
> # ah yes .. and I forgot the actual question. lol
> 
> %x = ( this => that );
> 
> # the value of 'this' can be obtained by doing this
> 
> $y = $x{this};
> 
> # howver as a hash reference...
> 
> $x = { this => that };
> 
> $y = $x->{this}; # you must use a 'pointer' to dereference the value
>
> On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 04:23:27PM -0400, Shaun Fryer wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 10, 2007 at 02:58:33PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> > > It makes me wonder then... whats the subtle difference
> > > between
> > > $x = () and $x = {} when dealing with hashes and their references?
> > 
> > @x = (); # this is an array
> > %x = (); # this is an array, in hash context
> > $x = \@x; # this is a reference to an array
> > $x = \%x; # this is a reference to a hash
> > $x = []; # this is a reference to an array
> > $x = {}; # this is a reference to a hash
> > 
> > So one might do this...
> > 
> > @x = qw( three element array );
> > $x = \@x;

From uri at stemsystems.com  Tue Apr 10 14:19:11 2007
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:19:11 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com> (Rob
	Janes's message of "Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:03:49 -0400")
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x73b38orlc.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>

>>>>> "RJ" == Rob Janes <janes.rob at gmail.com> writes:

  RJ> $x = (); is a list assignment to a scalar.  scalar conversion
  RJ> results in the scalar ($x that is) being assigned the count of the
  RJ> number of items in the list.  0 or zero.

wrong result and wrong explanation. you can't have a list in scalar
context by definition. in this case the () are just doing grouping of
nothing so it is just like saying my $x and the value in $x is undef.

perl -lwe '$x = () ; print $x'
Use of uninitialized value in print at -e line 1.

you can only get the number of elements in an array by putting it in
scalar context. and () does not make a list. parens only do grouping in
perl, and never directly make a list.

uri

-- 
Uri Guttman  ------  uri at stemsystems.com  -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs  ----------------------------  http://jobs.perl.org

From uri at stemsystems.com  Tue Apr 10 14:32:52 2007
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:32:52 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>
	(Fulko Hew's message of "Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:25:48 -0400")
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101225k1c334831icbf1ffe678797c99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x7slb7oqyj.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>

>>>>> "FH" == Fulko Hew <fulko.hew at gmail.com> writes:

  FH> because what fixed my problem was (transcribing correctly this time):

  FH> my %device = {};

that is STILL wrong. please enable warnings and it will barf out that
you are assigning an odd number of elements to a hash.

perl -lwe '%x = {}'
Name "main::x" used only once: possible typo at -e line 1.
Reference found where even-sized list expected at -e line 1.

hey, it is even more informative than it used to be.


  FH> $config{$cfg}{device} = \%device;
  FH> $device{$devid}{status} = 'OK';

you still have a hash ref as a key in %device. print it out with
Data::Dumper to see it.

  FH> ...

  FH> my %device = %{$config{$cfg}{device}};

that is doing a complete shallow copy of a hash. it will wipe out your
broken initializer (which you think is a clearing operation).

  FH> $status = $device{$devId}{status};

$devId is not the same as $devid. spelling matters in perl. if you
used strict you would have been told about that error.

uri

-- 
Uri Guttman  ------  uri at stemsystems.com  -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs  ----------------------------  http://jobs.perl.org

From jkeen at verizon.net  Wed Apr 11 03:31:07 2007
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James Keenan)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 06:31:07 -0400
Subject: [tpm] [ANNOUNCE]:  Hackathon Toronto Sat Apr 28
Message-ID: <9B478052-C00F-47E9-8A17-E404F25B581D@verizon.net>

Toronto Perlmongers are pleased to announce Hackathon Toronto, a one- 
day, almost-spur-of-the-moment hackathon, to be held Saturday, April  
28, 2007.

A hackathon is a gathering of free and open source software  
developers reflecting the joy of collective hacking.  Building on the  
tradition of previous Perl hackathons in Toronto, Chicago and  
elsewhere, Hackathon Toronto will encourage people to come together  
for face-to-face work on Perl 5, Perl 6, CPAN modules, Parrot, Pugs  
and ... you name it!

A hackathon wiki has been established at http://rakudo.org/hackathon- 
toronto/.  Go there to learn details as to participation, location,  
transportation, projects, logistics, etc.  As we get closer to the  
hackathon date, log on to #hackathon on irc.perl.org.

If you can be in Toronto on Saturday, April 28, we hope to see you  
there.  Thank you very much.

Jim Keenan


From janes.rob at gmail.com  Thu Apr 12 02:05:05 2007
From: janes.rob at gmail.com (Rob Janes)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 05:05:05 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <x73b38orlc.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<x73b38orlc.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
Message-ID: <83eac04d0704120205x7d95429bs93d37395bbc3518a@mail.gmail.com>

I guess I've just never seen $x = (); before.  doesn't seem very useful
unless it's a list expression.

[robj at localhost ~]$ perl -e '$x=(5,44); print "$x\n";'
44

[robj at localhost ~]$ perl -e '$x=@x=(5,44); print "$x\n";'
2

So the comma operator behaves differently in a scalar context from how it
behaves in a list context.

[robj at localhost ~]$ perl -e 'sub x { print "side effect\n"; return 5 }
$x=(x,44); print "$x\n";'
side effect
44

Showing that the comma operator is useful for side effects in scalar context
mode.


On 4/10/07, Uri Guttman <uri at stemsystems.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> "RJ" == Rob Janes <janes.rob at gmail.com> writes:
>
>   RJ> $x = (); is a list assignment to a scalar.  scalar conversion
>   RJ> results in the scalar ($x that is) being assigned the count of the
>   RJ> number of items in the list.  0 or zero.
>
> wrong result and wrong explanation. you can't have a list in scalar
> context by definition. in this case the () are just doing grouping of
> nothing so it is just like saying my $x and the value in $x is undef.
>
> perl -lwe '$x = () ; print $x'
> Use of uninitialized value in print at -e line 1.
>
> you can only get the number of elements in an array by putting it in
> scalar context. and () does not make a list. parens only do grouping in
> perl, and never directly make a list.
>
> uri
>
> --
> Uri Guttman  ------  uri at stemsystems.com  --------
> http://www.stemsystems.com
> --Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and
> Coding-
> Search or Offer Perl Jobs  ----------------------------
> http://jobs.perl.org
>
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From uri at stemsystems.com  Thu Apr 12 08:21:17 2007
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:21:17 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <83eac04d0704120205x7d95429bs93d37395bbc3518a@mail.gmail.com> (Rob
	Janes's message of "Thu, 12 Apr 2007 05:05:05 -0400")
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<x73b38orlc.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
	<83eac04d0704120205x7d95429bs93d37395bbc3518a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x7slb5ty8i.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>

>>>>> "RJ" == Rob Janes <janes.rob at gmail.com> writes:

  RJ> I guess I've just never seen $x = (); before.  doesn't seem very
  RJ> useful unless it's a list expression.

  RJ> [robj at localhost ~]$ perl -e '$x=(5,44); print "$x\n";'
  RJ> 44

  RJ> [robj at localhost ~]$ perl -e '$x=@x=(5,44); print "$x\n";'
  RJ> 2

  RJ> So the comma operator behaves differently in a scalar context from
  RJ> how it behaves in a list context.

i will repeat this again. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LIST IN SCALAR
CONTEXT. what you see there in the first line is the comma operator
which just returns its right side expression. in an actual list the
comma is NOT AN OPERATOR but a separator. it is pure syntax in a list
and no opcodes are generated.

  RJ> [robj at localhost ~]$ perl -e 'sub x { print "side effect\n"; return 5 } $x=
  RJ> (x,44); print "$x\n";'
  RJ> side effect
  RJ> 44

  RJ> Showing that the comma operator is useful for side effects in
  RJ> scalar context mode.

useful? that is what it is designed for. it was taken from c which has
the same operator but no list context to confuse things.

uri

-- 
Uri Guttman  ------  uri at stemsystems.com  -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs  ----------------------------  http://jobs.perl.org

From liam at holoweb.net  Fri Apr 13 12:16:55 2007
From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:16:55 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <x7slb5ty8i.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<x73b38orlc.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
	<83eac04d0704120205x7d95429bs93d37395bbc3518a@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7slb5ty8i.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
Message-ID: <1176491815.15486.18.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com>

On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 11:21 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote:

> useful? that is what it is designed for. it was taken from c which has
> the same operator but no list context to confuse things.

The , in C that's used in parameter lists (for example), as in
    int m = max(3, 12, 9, 76);
is like the comma in a Perl list,
    my $m = max(3, 12, 9, 76);
which is not at all like
    my @mm = max(3, 12, 9, 76);
:-)

Similarly, the C comma operator, really only used in a few
places these days because it's dangerous otherwise, is the same
as semicolon except that it doesn't terminate the statement, so

    if (e) a = 3,
    b = 6,
    c = 12;

is the same as

    if (e) {
        a = 3;
        b = 6;
        c = 12;
    }

except harder to follow.  In Perl, you have to use the braces, so the
second form is enforced, but you can still do things like

for ($i = 1, $j = 6; $i < 10; $i++, $j++) {
    stuff
}

and that's also the main place the comma operator is used in C.

I'd prefer in most cases
for (my $i = 1; $i < 10; $i++) {
    my $j = $i + 5;
    stuff;
}

because the relationship between in and j is now made explicit.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org


From janes.rob at gmail.com  Fri Apr 13 13:44:12 2007
From: janes.rob at gmail.com (Rob Janes)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:44:12 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <1176491815.15486.18.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com>
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<x73b38orlc.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
	<83eac04d0704120205x7d95429bs93d37395bbc3518a@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7slb5ty8i.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
	<1176491815.15486.18.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com>
Message-ID: <83eac04d0704131344v7950e329r17717f640bd5dbd@mail.gmail.com>

here's more of my 2 cents (have fun Uri! :)

I notice there's two examples of for, but no examples of multiple lexical
(my) variable assignments in for.

for ($i = 1, $j = 6; $i < 10; $i++, $j++) {

and

for (my $i = 1; $i < 10; $i++) {

Normally multiple lexical variables are declared in the same line like

my ($i, $j);

But if you do that you can't initialize them.  my ($i=1, $j=2); gives an
error.  this works ...

my $i=1;
my $j=2;

this is the common way.  but ...

my ($i, $j) = (1,2);

is another way.

here's another way, in a for statement:

for (my $i=1, my $j=6; $i < 10; $i++, $j++) { print "$i\n" }

and so,

my $i=1, my $j=2;

works too.

even more thrilling is

my $k = (my $i=1, my $j=2);

which gives $k a 2.



On 4/13/07, Liam R E Quin <liam at holoweb.net> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 11:21 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote:
>
> > useful? that is what it is designed for. it was taken from c which has
> > the same operator but no list context to confuse things.
>
> The , in C that's used in parameter lists (for example), as in
>     int m = max(3, 12, 9, 76);
> is like the comma in a Perl list,
>     my $m = max(3, 12, 9, 76);
> which is not at all like
>     my @mm = max(3, 12, 9, 76);
> :-)
>
> Similarly, the C comma operator, really only used in a few
> places these days because it's dangerous otherwise, is the same
> as semicolon except that it doesn't terminate the statement, so
>
>     if (e) a = 3,
>     b = 6,
>     c = 12;
>
> is the same as
>
>     if (e) {
>         a = 3;
>         b = 6;
>         c = 12;
>     }
>
> except harder to follow.  In Perl, you have to use the braces, so the
> second form is enforced, but you can still do things like
>
> for ($i = 1, $j = 6; $i < 10; $i++, $j++) {
>     stuff
> }
>
> and that's also the main place the comma operator is used in C.
>
> I'd prefer in most cases
> for (my $i = 1; $i < 10; $i++) {
>     my $j = $i + 5;
>     stuff;
> }
>
> because the relationship between in and j is now made explicit.
>
> Liam
>
> --
> Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
> Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
> Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
>
>
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From uri at stemsystems.com  Fri Apr 13 14:16:50 2007
From: uri at stemsystems.com (Uri Guttman)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:16:50 -0400
Subject: [tpm] dereferencing anonymous hashes
In-Reply-To: <83eac04d0704131344v7950e329r17717f640bd5dbd@mail.gmail.com> (Rob
	Janes's message of "Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:44:12 -0400")
References: <8204a4fe0704101105p11a2d811r6d782340dc458f0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<8204a4fe0704101158k68a03120kf1262f1bc7966028@mail.gmail.com>
	<83eac04d0704101203g4cd99487w52c70c13492b8560@mail.gmail.com>
	<x73b38orlc.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
	<83eac04d0704120205x7d95429bs93d37395bbc3518a@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7slb5ty8i.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>
	<1176491815.15486.18.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com>
	<83eac04d0704131344v7950e329r17717f640bd5dbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x7ps68gekd.fsf@mail.sysarch.com>

>>>>> "RJ" == Rob Janes <janes.rob at gmail.com> writes:

  RJ> here's more of my 2 cents (have fun Uri! :)

  RJ> I notice there's two examples of for, but no examples of multiple
  RJ> lexical (my) variable assignments in for.

the reason is that the c style for loop should almost never be used.

  RJ> for ($i = 1, $j = 6; $i < 10; $i++, $j++) {

i used to similar things in c. i would never in perl as i rarely need
integer indexes in perl. i can practically count the number of c style
loops i write on one hand. in fact i just checked. in 9933 lines of the
stem project, i found 1 c style for loop. and i don't go out of my way
to avoid them. they just don't enter my perl vocabulary anymore. perl
has such nice arrays and lists that indexing into them in a c style loop
makes little sense. you loop OVER a list of things (such as hashes) and
work on them. if you need an index into 2 arrays they should be
refactored or designed to be an array of hashes. accessing an array
element in a for list is much faster than using an index variable too.

  RJ> for (my $i = 1; $i < 10; $i++) {

for my $i ( 1 .. 10 ) {

also less chance of a fencepost error with the for list style.


  RJ> for (my $i=1, my $j=6; $i < 10; $i++, $j++) { print "$i\n" }

for my $i ( 1 .. 10 ) {

	my $j = $i + 6 ;

much easier to read and follow IMO. again less chance of fencespost
errors.

you just need to change how you think. remember i coded in c for over 20
years and did some deep complex stuff in it. i have long ago
transitioned to perl and i don't ever think about c style for
loops. they are just about never needed in perl and coding them is
usually a red flag to me that a better design is warranted.

uri

-- 
Uri Guttman  ------  uri at stemsystems.com  -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs  ----------------------------  http://jobs.perl.org

From dada.da at gmail.com  Fri Apr 13 19:13:57 2007
From: dada.da at gmail.com (Daniel Allen)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:13:57 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Perl Review subscriptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0704131451350.504-100000@matrix2.coder.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0704131451350.504-100000@matrix2.coder.com>
Message-ID: <aa2cdde20704131913i139941bcq28684c6a8d69d95e@mail.gmail.com>

The Perl Review has made their subscriptions available as web-only for
"international subscribers" (that is to say, international to the US).
The subscription includes a year's worth of new issues, plus the entire
back-issue catalogue, for $7 US.  So check it out!

-Daniel
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From magog at the-wire.com  Sun Apr 15 20:55:43 2007
From: magog at the-wire.com (Michael Graham)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:55:43 -0400
Subject: [tpm] April Meeting - Thu 26 Apr,
 2007 - Component-focused Testing and Test-Driven Development
Message-ID: <20070415235543.3d52c3c3@caliope>


This month we two speakers on testing related subjects!

(These details are also on the TPM web site: http://to.pm.org/)

    Date:   Thursday 26 Apr 2006

    Time:   6:45pm

   Where:   2 Bloor Street West (NW corner of Yonge/Bloor, skyscraper
            with the CIBC logo on top) Classroom TBA

  ===================================================================

Talk Details:

 Speaker #1: Jim Keenan
      Title: Component-Focused Testing: The Case of the Parrot Build
             Tools

   Duration: 40 minutes

Description: 

    Installation of an open-source software package such as Perl or a
    CPAN module generally follows a 4-step process: configure, build,
    test, install. Although 'make test' is usually thought of as the
    place where all the testing happens, the successful completion of
    each of the other stages implicitly constitutes the passing of a
    functional test. But does there exist a place for a type of test
    which is not included in the 'test' target but instead is run either
    before the 'configure' stage or between the 'configure' and 'build'
    stages?

    In this talk, Jim argues that there is a role for such tests and he
    describes how he has implemented a number of test suites, run post-
    configure but pre-build, for those of Parrot's build tools written
    in Perl 5. Such tests encourage provide more rapid feedback on the
    results of refactoring than 'make test' can. Indeed, they encourage
    Phalanx-style refactoring which makes the build tools more
    maintainable over the long run.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

 Speaker #2: Henry Baragar 
      Title: Test Driven Design: Or How I Learned to Love the KISS
             Principle

   Duration: 40 minutes

Description: 

    Test Driven Development is a practice that can be used to improve
    software quality by writing tests before writing code.  Applied
    properly, this practice can be extended to the design activities as
    well as code construction.  In other words, it is practical to
    organically grow an application from an acorn to a mighty oak
    without doing any up front design work.  

    To demonstrate Test Driven Design, Henry will walk through the
    evolution of a real world example.  He will discuss the techniques,
    examine some interesting and unexpected observations, and present
    statistics from personal use.   Finally, the example will be
    developed using Jifty so that you may gain some exposure and insight
    into this interesting and cutting edge application framework.

  ===================================================================

  Note:

    The elevators in the building are "locked down" after 5:30pm
    to people without building access cards.  Leading up to the
    meeting someone will come down to the main floor lobby every
    few minutes to ferry people upstairs.

    After 19:00, you can reach the access-card-carrying guy via
    a cell phone number that we'll leave with security in the
    front lobby.  The room and floor numbers will be left with
    security too.



-- 
Michael Graham <magog at the-wire.com>

From arocker at vex.net  Mon Apr 16 11:07:31 2007
From: arocker at vex.net (arocker at vex.net)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:07:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [tpm] Presentation techniques
Message-ID: <37089.192.30.202.29.1176746851.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>


Powerpoint, and why not.

http://www.theregister.ca/2007/04/16/death_by_powerpoint/


From mike at stok.ca  Mon Apr 16 14:16:56 2007
From: mike at stok.ca (Mike Stok)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:16:56 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Presentation techniques
In-Reply-To: <37089.192.30.202.29.1176746851.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>
References: <37089.192.30.202.29.1176746851.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <578683ED-6D9E-4E65-858D-5B25E5F26BF9@stok.ca>


On 16-Apr-07, at 2:07 PM, arocker at vex.net wrote:

>
> Powerpoint, and why not.
>
> http://www.theregister.ca/2007/04/16/death_by_powerpoint/

The Tufte link at the end of the second page is good.  I have a copy  
of Tufte's _Beautiful Evidence_ at home which is a great read and  
includes chapters on the cognitive style of powerpoint.

Mike

-- 

Mike Stok <mike at stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.





From jkeen at verizon.net  Mon Apr 16 16:57:52 2007
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James Keenan)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:57:52 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Hackathon:  Improved Link
Message-ID: <0F44E353-92B3-4AC8-9F6E-7B8A93EE7956@verizon.net>

It appears that in my last posting the link to the Hackathon wiki  
line-wrapped badly.  Here's the shortest working version:

http://rakudo.org/hackathon-toronto/

If you're planning on coming a week from Saturday, please sign up on  
the Attendees page.  Also please feel free to contribute projects  
you'd like to hack on to the Projects page.

I look forward to seeing you at to.pm  on Thurs Apr 26 and at the  
Hackathon on Sat Apr 28.

jimk

From tom at legrady.ca  Tue Apr 17 15:35:07 2007
From: tom at legrady.ca (Tom Legrady)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:35:07 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Hackathon:  Improved Link
In-Reply-To: <0F44E353-92B3-4AC8-9F6E-7B8A93EE7956@verizon.net>
References: <0F44E353-92B3-4AC8-9F6E-7B8A93EE7956@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7089F18E-F5DF-42CE-A771-F7CD81432272@legrady.ca>


Too bad the login page won't send me the confirmation email.

I expect to be there, not sure what I'll contribute but I'm curious  
to see what people are doing with Perl6

There's parking on peter street, (ie, just east of the venue) just  
south of Richmond, not sure how expensive it is

Tom

On 16-Apr-07, at 7:57 PM, James Keenan wrote:

> It appears that in my last posting the link to the Hackathon wiki
> line-wrapped badly.  Here's the shortest working version:
>
> http://rakudo.org/hackathon-toronto/
>
> If you're planning on coming a week from Saturday, please sign up on
> the Attendees page.  Also please feel free to contribute projects
> you'd like to hack on to the Projects page.
>
> I look forward to seeing you at to.pm  on Thurs Apr 26 and at the
> Hackathon on Sat Apr 28.
>
> jimk
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
>

Tom Legrady
tom at legrady.ca
XMas Shopping photos => http://www.flickr.com/photos/89217343 at N00/ 
sets/1601047/show


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From alexmac131 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 08:44:47 2007
From: alexmac131 at hotmail.com (Alex Mackinnon)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:44:47 +0000
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
Message-ID: <BAY135-F11C9EB309262F9CBE211A834A0@phx.gbl>



Wow, what are these people thinking. 20k for a mod_perl/cgi perl developer.

http://jobs.perl.org/job/5687

You got to know apache, mod_perl, cgi programing, linux and oh yes 
"Experience with Photoshop and/or Flash. "


These sorts of job posts just blow my stack.


Alex
Anyone see the FTD flourist post there (under a different name) and what is 
their problem on employee retention.

Accenture of course is hiring and they pay way more, but you have to sell 
your soul.

_________________________________________________________________
Win a webcam! Nominate your friend?s Windows Live Space in the Windows Live 
Spaces Sweetest Space Contest and you both could win! 
http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/sweetestspace/default.aspx


From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Tue Apr 24 10:07:54 2007
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (adam.prime at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:07:54 -0400
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
Message-ID: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>

Quoting Alex Mackinnon <alexmac131 at hotmail.com>:
>
> Wow, what are these people thinking. 20k for a mod_perl/cgi perl developer.
>
> http://jobs.perl.org/job/5687
>
> You got to know apache, mod_perl, cgi programing, linux and oh yes
> "Experience with Photoshop and/or Flash. "
>
>
> These sorts of job posts just blow my stack.
>

I saw that too and shuddered.  I can't see the cost of living being
THAT much lower in winnipeg.  That being said, it might be an ok job
for a kid straight out of school, living at home.  25K = 12/hr
basically.  you can make more than that in retail.

>
> Anyone see the FTD flourist post there (under a different name) and
> what is their problem on employee retention.
>

I assume you're talking about the Novator posting.  A friend of a
friend works there, though not as a coder.  From everything i've heard
it seems like it'd actually be a pretty good place to work.  Good
benefits, right downtown close to TTC, big established clients.  /shrug

> Accenture of course is hiring and they pay way more, but you have to
> sell your soul.

Whenever I hear Accenture i think Mississauga.  I'm not sure if i
really should be thinking that or not though.



From pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca  Tue Apr 24 10:14:06 2007
From: pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca (Neil Watson)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:14:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
In-Reply-To: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20070424171406.GF6978@watson-wilson.ca>

On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0400, adam.prime at utoronto.ca wrote:
>I assume you're talking about the Novator posting.  A friend of a
>friend works there, though not as a coder.  From everything i've heard
>it seems like it'd actually be a pretty good place to work.  Good
>benefits, right downtown close to TTC, big established clients.  /shrug

I hear they have a hyperactive on call pager.  I also heard that they
were moving from perl to java.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Debian Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime  13:12:35 up 20:09,  1 user,  load average: 0.01, 0.01, 0.00
http://watson-wilson.ca

From pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca  Tue Apr 24 10:14:06 2007
From: pm-neil at watson-wilson.ca (Neil Watson)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:14:06 -0400
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
In-Reply-To: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20070424171406.GF6978@watson-wilson.ca>

On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0400, adam.prime at utoronto.ca wrote:
>I assume you're talking about the Novator posting.  A friend of a
>friend works there, though not as a coder.  From everything i've heard
>it seems like it'd actually be a pretty good place to work.  Good
>benefits, right downtown close to TTC, big established clients.  /shrug

I hear they have a hyperactive on call pager.  I also heard that they
were moving from perl to java.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Debian Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime  13:12:35 up 20:09,  1 user,  load average: 0.01, 0.01, 0.00
http://watson-wilson.ca

From sfryer at sourcery.ca  Tue Apr 24 14:09:26 2007
From: sfryer at sourcery.ca (Shaun Fryer)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:09:26 -0400
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
In-Reply-To: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20070424210926.GA11034@sourcery.ca>

I also work for Novator. It *is* a great place to work. We're looking for
a Perl developer (with secondary skills in Java) to work in my dept aswell.
It's a bonus if the candidate has experience with XML/XSL also. You'd be
working with me, so you get one of the best coworkers in the whole joint. ;)
<snicker> If you apply, please be sure to mention that I referred you.
--
    Shaun Fryer

On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0400, adam.prime at utoronto.ca wrote:
> Quoting Alex Mackinnon <alexmac131 at hotmail.com>:
> >
> > Wow, what are these people thinking. 20k for a mod_perl/cgi perl developer.
> >
> > http://jobs.perl.org/job/5687
> >
> > You got to know apache, mod_perl, cgi programing, linux and oh yes
> > "Experience with Photoshop and/or Flash. "
> >
> >
> > These sorts of job posts just blow my stack.
> >
> 
> I saw that too and shuddered.  I can't see the cost of living being
> THAT much lower in winnipeg.  That being said, it might be an ok job
> for a kid straight out of school, living at home.  25K = 12/hr
> basically.  you can make more than that in retail.
> 
> >
> > Anyone see the FTD flourist post there (under a different name) and
> > what is their problem on employee retention.
> >
> 
> I assume you're talking about the Novator posting.  A friend of a
> friend works there, though not as a coder.  From everything i've heard
> it seems like it'd actually be a pretty good place to work.  Good
> benefits, right downtown close to TTC, big established clients.  /shrug
> 
> > Accenture of course is hiring and they pay way more, but you have to
> > sell your soul.
> 
> Whenever I hear Accenture i think Mississauga.  I'm not sure if i
> really should be thinking that or not though.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> toronto-pm mailing list
> toronto-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> 

From sfryer at sourcery.ca  Tue Apr 24 14:24:00 2007
From: sfryer at sourcery.ca (Shaun Fryer)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:24:00 -0400
Subject: [tpm] novator posting
In-Reply-To: <20070424171406.GF6978@watson-wilson.ca>
References: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<20070424171406.GF6978@watson-wilson.ca>
Message-ID: <20070424212400.GB11034@sourcery.ca>

> On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0400, adam.prime at utoronto.ca wrote:
> I hear they have a hyperactive on call pager.  I also heard that they
> were moving from perl to java.

I've been with Novator since Sept and never had to deal with a pager once.
Usually that's handled by senior team members so that any serious problems
get resolved in a timely manner.

The Java migration is true with varying time-lines depending on client/dept.
A significant portion of the infrastructure will continue to be in Perl
for the foreseeable future.
--
    Shaun Fryer

From alexmac131 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 14:53:24 2007
From: alexmac131 at hotmail.com (Alex Mackinnon)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:53:24 +0000
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
In-Reply-To: <20070424210926.GA11034@sourcery.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY135-F13BADCD20C5EFFC13EADF8834A0@phx.gbl>


So this is a new hire ?

I keep seeing the post over and over :)

Alex



>From: Shaun Fryer <sfryer at sourcery.ca>
>To: tpm at to.pm.org
>Subject: Re: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:09:26 -0400
>
>I also work for Novator. It *is* a great place to work. We're looking for
>a Perl developer (with secondary skills in Java) to work in my dept aswell.
>It's a bonus if the candidate has experience with XML/XSL also. You'd be
>working with me, so you get one of the best coworkers in the whole joint. 
>;)
><snicker> If you apply, please be sure to mention that I referred you.
>--
>     Shaun Fryer
>
>On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 01:07:54PM -0400, adam.prime at utoronto.ca wrote:
> > Quoting Alex Mackinnon <alexmac131 at hotmail.com>:
> > >
> > > Wow, what are these people thinking. 20k for a mod_perl/cgi perl 
>developer.
> > >
> > > http://jobs.perl.org/job/5687
> > >
> > > You got to know apache, mod_perl, cgi programing, linux and oh yes
> > > "Experience with Photoshop and/or Flash. "
> > >
> > >
> > > These sorts of job posts just blow my stack.
> > >
> >
> > I saw that too and shuddered.  I can't see the cost of living being
> > THAT much lower in winnipeg.  That being said, it might be an ok job
> > for a kid straight out of school, living at home.  25K = 12/hr
> > basically.  you can make more than that in retail.
> >
> > >
> > > Anyone see the FTD flourist post there (under a different name) and
> > > what is their problem on employee retention.
> > >
> >
> > I assume you're talking about the Novator posting.  A friend of a
> > friend works there, though not as a coder.  From everything i've heard
> > it seems like it'd actually be a pretty good place to work.  Good
> > benefits, right downtown close to TTC, big established clients.  /shrug
> >
> > > Accenture of course is hiring and they pay way more, but you have to
> > > sell your soul.
> >
> > Whenever I hear Accenture i think Mississauga.  I'm not sure if i
> > really should be thinking that or not though.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > toronto-pm mailing list
> > toronto-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm
> >
>_______________________________________________
>toronto-pm mailing list
>toronto-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/toronto-pm

_________________________________________________________________
Win a webcam! Nominate your friend?s Windows Live Space in the Windows Live 
Spaces Sweetest Space Contest and you both could win! 
http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/sweetestspace/default.aspx


From sfryer at sourcery.ca  Tue Apr 24 15:06:26 2007
From: sfryer at sourcery.ca (Shaun Fryer)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:06:26 -0400
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
In-Reply-To: <BAY135-F13BADCD20C5EFFC13EADF8834A0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070424210926.GA11034@sourcery.ca>
	<BAY135-F13BADCD20C5EFFC13EADF8834A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070424220626.GA17731@sourcery.ca>

Yeah. They're expanding. It's probably a form letter that Andrea's
pasting in.

-Shaun

On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 09:53:24PM +0000, Alex Mackinnon wrote:
> 
> So this is a new hire ?
> 
> I keep seeing the post over and over :)
> 
> Alex

From liam at holoweb.net  Tue Apr 24 15:42:39 2007
From: liam at holoweb.net (Liam R E Quin)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:42:39 -0400
Subject: [tpm] another reason not to move to Winnipeg
In-Reply-To: <20070424210926.GA11034@sourcery.ca>
References: <20070424130754.kl9fb3m8o9c8c000@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<20070424210926.GA11034@sourcery.ca>
Message-ID: <1177454559.31351.118.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com>

On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 17:09 -0400, Shaun Fryer wrote:
> I also work for Novator. It *is* a great place to work. We're looking for
> a Perl developer (with secondary skills in Java) to work in my dept aswell.

But do they make you wear shoes and socks?  The pay wouldn't be very
convincing in the Toronto area -- minimum rent for a single room tends
to be $500, so after tax and rent it'd be difficult to party every
night.  Plus it's hard to spend under $12,000 for clothes on a typical
shopping trip to, say, Holt Renfrew or one of the Toronto
discount stores say on Cumberland.  And valet parking for the Lotus
would be out of the question!

> It's a bonus if the candidate has experience with XML/XSL also.
There at least we agree :-) ;-)

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org


From magog at the-wire.com  Wed Apr 25 08:24:25 2007
From: magog at the-wire.com (Michael Graham)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:24:25 -0400
Subject: [tpm] [REMINDER] April Meeting Tomorrow, Hackathon this Sunday
Message-ID: <20070425112425.4c24afa8@caliope>


The next TPM meeting will be tomorrow (Thursday Apr 26 2007) in the
usual location (2 bloor St. west).

There's also a special all-day Hackathon happening this Sunday (Apr 28
2007) downtown (Richmond and Peter streets).  Details for the Hackathon
are here:

    http://rakudo.org/hackathon-toronto/

If you're thinking of attending the Hackathon, please sign up on the
wiki, so we have an idea of what sort of numbers to expect.


Thursday Meeting Details:

(These details are also on the TPM web site: http://to.pm.org/)

This month we have two speakers on testing-related subjects!

    Date:   Thursday 27 Apr 2007

    Time:   6:45pm

   Where:   2 Bloor Street West (NW corner of Yonge/Bloor, skyscraper
            with the CIBC logo on top) Classroom 11, 8th floor

  ===================================================================

Talk Details:

 Speaker #1: Jim Keenan
      Title: Component-Focused Testing: The Case of the Parrot Build
             Tools

   Duration: 40 minutes

Description: 

    Installation of an open-source software package such as Perl or a
    CPAN module generally follows a 4-step process: configure, build,
    test, install. Although 'make test' is usually thought of as the
    place where all the testing happens, the successful completion of
    each of the other stages implicitly constitutes the passing of a
    functional test. But does there exist a place for a type of test
    which is not included in the 'test' target but instead is run either
    before the 'configure' stage or between the 'configure' and 'build'
    stages?

    In this talk, Jim argues that there is a role for such tests and he
    describes how he has implemented a number of test suites, run post-
    configure but pre-build, for those of Parrot's build tools written
    in Perl 5. Such tests encourage provide more rapid feedback on the
    results of refactoring than 'make test' can. Indeed, they encourage
    Phalanx-style refactoring which makes the build tools more
    maintainable over the long run.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

 Speaker #2: Henry Baragar 
      Title: Test Driven Design: Or How I Learned to Love the KISS
             Principle

   Duration: 40 minutes

Description: 

    Test Driven Development is a practice that can be used to improve
    software quality by writing tests before writing code.  Applied
    properly, this practice can be extended to the design activities as
    well as code construction.  In other words, it is practical to
    organically grow an application from an acorn to a mighty oak
    without doing any up front design work.  

    To demonstrate Test Driven Design, Henry will walk through the
    evolution of a real world example.  He will discuss the techniques,
    examine some interesting and unexpected observations, and present
    statistics from personal use.   Finally, the example will be
    developed using Jifty so that you may gain some exposure and insight
    into this interesting and cutting edge application framework.

  ===================================================================

  Note:

    The elevators in the building are "locked down" after 5:30pm
    to people without building access cards.  Leading up to the
    meeting someone will come down to the main floor lobby every
    few minutes to ferry people upstairs.

    After 19:00, you can reach the access-card-carrying guy via
    a cell phone number that we'll leave with security in the
    front lobby.  The room and floor numbers will be left with
    security too.



-- 
Michael Graham <magog at the-wire.com>

From adam.prime at utoronto.ca  Wed Apr 25 17:51:29 2007
From: adam.prime at utoronto.ca (Adam Prime)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:51:29 -0400
Subject: [tpm] April Meeting - Thu 26 Apr,
 2007 - Component-focused Testing and Test-Driven Development
In-Reply-To: <20070415235543.3d52c3c3@caliope>
References: <20070415235543.3d52c3c3@caliope>
Message-ID: <462FF791.7030709@utoronto.ca>

I just added this to upcoming.org (well it use to be upcoming.org)

http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/184159/

It might be an idea to just do this as a part of the announcement 
process.  There are a number of other local users groups that already do it.

Adam

Michael Graham wrote:
> This month we two speakers on testing related subjects!
> 
> (These details are also on the TPM web site: http://to.pm.org/)
> 
>     Date:   Thursday 26 Apr 2006
> 
>     Time:   6:45pm
> 
>    Where:   2 Bloor Street West (NW corner of Yonge/Bloor, skyscraper
>             with the CIBC logo on top) Classroom TBA
> 
>   ===================================================================
> 
> Talk Details:
> 
>  Speaker #1: Jim Keenan
>       Title: Component-Focused Testing: The Case of the Parrot Build
>              Tools
> 
>    Duration: 40 minutes
> 
> Description: 
> 
>     Installation of an open-source software package such as Perl or a
>     CPAN module generally follows a 4-step process: configure, build,
>     test, install. Although 'make test' is usually thought of as the
>     place where all the testing happens, the successful completion of
>     each of the other stages implicitly constitutes the passing of a
>     functional test. But does there exist a place for a type of test
>     which is not included in the 'test' target but instead is run either
>     before the 'configure' stage or between the 'configure' and 'build'
>     stages?
> 
>     In this talk, Jim argues that there is a role for such tests and he
>     describes how he has implemented a number of test suites, run post-
>     configure but pre-build, for those of Parrot's build tools written
>     in Perl 5. Such tests encourage provide more rapid feedback on the
>     results of refactoring than 'make test' can. Indeed, they encourage
>     Phalanx-style refactoring which makes the build tools more
>     maintainable over the long run.
> 
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>  Speaker #2: Henry Baragar 
>       Title: Test Driven Design: Or How I Learned to Love the KISS
>              Principle
> 
>    Duration: 40 minutes
> 
> Description: 
> 
>     Test Driven Development is a practice that can be used to improve
>     software quality by writing tests before writing code.  Applied
>     properly, this practice can be extended to the design activities as
>     well as code construction.  In other words, it is practical to
>     organically grow an application from an acorn to a mighty oak
>     without doing any up front design work.  
> 
>     To demonstrate Test Driven Design, Henry will walk through the
>     evolution of a real world example.  He will discuss the techniques,
>     examine some interesting and unexpected observations, and present
>     statistics from personal use.   Finally, the example will be
>     developed using Jifty so that you may gain some exposure and insight
>     into this interesting and cutting edge application framework.
> 
>   ===================================================================
> 
>   Note:
> 
>     The elevators in the building are "locked down" after 5:30pm
>     to people without building access cards.  Leading up to the
>     meeting someone will come down to the main floor lobby every
>     few minutes to ferry people upstairs.
> 
>     After 19:00, you can reach the access-card-carrying guy via
>     a cell phone number that we'll leave with security in the
>     front lobby.  The room and floor numbers will be left with
>     security too.
> 
> 
> 



From matt at starnix.com  Thu Apr 26 15:49:04 2007
From: matt at starnix.com (G. Matthew Rice)
Date: 26 Apr 2007 18:49:04 -0400
Subject: [tpm] [REMINDER] April Meeting Tomorrow, Hackathon this Sunday
In-Reply-To: <20070425112425.4c24afa8@caliope>
References: <20070425112425.4c24afa8@caliope>
Message-ID: <lv3b2mycnz.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>

Michael Graham <magog at the-wire.com> writes:
> There's also a special all-day Hackathon happening this Sunday (Apr 28
> 2007) downtown (Richmond and Peter streets).  Details for the Hackathon
> are here:
> 
>     http://rakudo.org/hackathon-toronto/
> 
> If you're thinking of attending the Hackathon, please sign up on the
> wiki, so we have an idea of what sort of numbers to expect.

Other than myself, I'll have 0-3 people coming as well.  All for CAF (I hope :)

I forgot to mention the wiki to them.  I'll send them a note tonight.

TTYL,
-- 
g. matthew rice <matt at starnix.com>      starnix care, toronto, ontario, ca
phone: 647.722.5301 x242                                  gpg id: EF9AAD20
http://www.starnix.com              professional linux services & products

From Henry.Baragar at instantiated.ca  Fri Apr 27 05:55:36 2007
From: Henry.Baragar at instantiated.ca (Henry Baragar)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:55:36 -0400
Subject: [tpm] [REMINDER] April Meeting Tomorrow, Hackathon this Sunday
In-Reply-To: <20070425112425.4c24afa8@caliope>
References: <20070425112425.4c24afa8@caliope>
Message-ID: <200704270855.36968.Henry.Baragar@instantiated.ca>

Hello,

For those of you interested, you can find my presentation at:
http://www.instantiated.ca/tdd-kiss.swf
The git repository with the Address example can be found at:
http://www.instantiated.ca/tdd-git.tgz

As I indicated in my talk, feed back would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Henry

On Wednesday, April 25 2007 11:24 am, Michael Graham wrote:
> The next TPM meeting will be tomorrow (Thursday Apr 26 2007) in the
> usual location (2 bloor St. west).
>
> There's also a special all-day Hackathon happening this Sunday (Apr 28
> 2007) downtown (Richmond and Peter streets).  Details for the Hackathon
> are here:
>
>     http://rakudo.org/hackathon-toronto/
>
> If you're thinking of attending the Hackathon, please sign up on the
> wiki, so we have an idea of what sort of numbers to expect.
>
>
> Thursday Meeting Details:
>
> (These details are also on the TPM web site: http://to.pm.org/)
>
> This month we have two speakers on testing-related subjects!
>
>     Date:   Thursday 27 Apr 2007
>
>     Time:   6:45pm
>
>    Where:   2 Bloor Street West (NW corner of Yonge/Bloor, skyscraper
>             with the CIBC logo on top) Classroom 11, 8th floor
>
>   ===================================================================
>
> Talk Details:
>
>  Speaker #1: Jim Keenan
>       Title: Component-Focused Testing: The Case of the Parrot Build
>              Tools
>
>    Duration: 40 minutes
>
> Description:
>
>     Installation of an open-source software package such as Perl or a
>     CPAN module generally follows a 4-step process: configure, build,
>     test, install. Although 'make test' is usually thought of as the
>     place where all the testing happens, the successful completion of
>     each of the other stages implicitly constitutes the passing of a
>     functional test. But does there exist a place for a type of test
>     which is not included in the 'test' target but instead is run either
>     before the 'configure' stage or between the 'configure' and 'build'
>     stages?
>
>     In this talk, Jim argues that there is a role for such tests and he
>     describes how he has implemented a number of test suites, run post-
>     configure but pre-build, for those of Parrot's build tools written
>     in Perl 5. Such tests encourage provide more rapid feedback on the
>     results of refactoring than 'make test' can. Indeed, they encourage
>     Phalanx-style refactoring which makes the build tools more
>     maintainable over the long run.
>
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Speaker #2: Henry Baragar
>       Title: Test Driven Design: Or How I Learned to Love the KISS
>              Principle
>
>    Duration: 40 minutes
>
> Description:
>
>     Test Driven Development is a practice that can be used to improve
>     software quality by writing tests before writing code.  Applied
>     properly, this practice can be extended to the design activities as
>     well as code construction.  In other words, it is practical to
>     organically grow an application from an acorn to a mighty oak
>     without doing any up front design work.
>
>     To demonstrate Test Driven Design, Henry will walk through the
>     evolution of a real world example.  He will discuss the techniques,
>     examine some interesting and unexpected observations, and present
>     statistics from personal use.   Finally, the example will be
>     developed using Jifty so that you may gain some exposure and insight
>     into this interesting and cutting edge application framework.
>
>   ===================================================================
>
>   Note:
>
>     The elevators in the building are "locked down" after 5:30pm
>     to people without building access cards.  Leading up to the
>     meeting someone will come down to the main floor lobby every
>     few minutes to ferry people upstairs.
>
>     After 19:00, you can reach the access-card-carrying guy via
>     a cell phone number that we'll leave with security in the
>     front lobby.  The room and floor numbers will be left with
>     security too.
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From jkeen at verizon.net  Fri Apr 27 07:58:45 2007
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James Keenan)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:58:45 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Correction: Hackathon this Saturday, Apr 28
In-Reply-To: <20070425112425.4c24afa8@caliope>
References: <20070425112425.4c24afa8@caliope>
Message-ID: <059FC778-152F-4071-8374-AA2E8E6D4161@verizon.net>


On Apr 25, 2007, at 11:24 AM, Michael Graham wrote:

>
> The next TPM meeting will be tomorrow (Thursday Apr 26 2007) in the
> usual location (2 bloor St. west).
>
> There's also a special all-day Hackathon happening this Sunday (Apr 28
> 2007) downtown (Richmond and Peter streets).

Correct date; wrong day of week.

s/Sunday/Saturday/;

> Details for the Hackathon
> are here:
>
>     http://rakudo.org/hackathon-toronto/
>
> If you're thinking of attending the Hackathon, please sign up on the
> wiki, so we have an idea of what sort of numbers to expect.
>






From jkeen at verizon.net  Fri Apr 27 11:39:11 2007
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James Keenan)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:39:11 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Hackathon Access Details
Message-ID: <450E06C2-1867-41B7-8C39-E181CCCC7AD6@verizon.net>

For those coming to the Sat Apr 28 hackathon:

http://rakudo.org/hackathon-toronto/index.cgi?location

When you arrive, enter "#7667" and the door will open.  (That's pound- 
sign 7667.)



From tom at legrady.ca  Sun Apr 29 18:32:13 2007
From: tom at legrady.ca (Tom Legrady)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:32:13 -0400
Subject: [tpm] Q for people at Novator
References: <lv3b2mycnz.fsf@newsol.starnix.com>
Message-ID: <8C9C13A2-3FB0-4A38-9499-9D0CD85255EA@legrady.ca>

Please contact me if you're at Novator

Thanks

Tom Legrady
tom at legrady.ca
XMas Shopping photos => http://www.flickr.com/photos/89217343 at N00/ 
sets/1601047/show


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