From cmauch at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 01:51:14 2005 From: cmauch at gmail.com (Charles Mauch) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 01:51:14 -0700 Subject: SPUG: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <20050801024243.GB31193@redbox.mauch.name> Message-ID: <20050801085114.GA16642@redbox.mauch.name> >>>> Anyway, my question is this. >>> Wait, wait, wait. Just wait a moment. >>> Did you "use strict"? Hmmm. Or warnings? *sigh* >> When testing, I usually "use diagnostics". I should probably start using >> strict though :) > > The diagnostics pragma is not the same as strict. You generally _always_ > want to use strict (and then disable various amounts of strictness in > limited scopes as needed). I spent a few hours tonight enabling string and warning and cleaning up the resulting mess. I learned a ton about Pragma and Lexical scope as a result. Now the only errors generated are the result of failures in the perl modules I'm using. :) -- Take it easy Charles Mauch, [cmauch at gmail.com], Big Time Glue Eater Every message PGP or S/MIME signed to verify authenticity. ------------------------------------------------------------- Playing "Kelly Watch the Stars" by Air (Moon Safari) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050801/6314fa5f/attachment.bin From dblanchard at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 08:46:16 2005 From: dblanchard at gmail.com (Duane Blanchard) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:46:16 -0700 Subject: SPUG: A hash of hashes and arrays Message-ID: Hi all, I have a hash of hashes and arrays. I'm able to print the all the keys of the outer hash, and print the embedded hashes and arrays individually, now I want to print the entire contents of the outer (matrix) hash. I need something like: for each key in the outer hash { if (the key is a reference to a hash) { print the contents of the hash; } elsif (the key is a reference to an array) { print the contents of the array; } } I have everything in place, but don't know how to tell whether I'm looking at a hash or an array. Any hints? P.S. In linguistics, we call the embedded sentences "embedded sentences," clever, I know, and those into which they are embedded "matrix sentences." What is the parlance in Perl/formal languages? Duane Blanchard There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who know binary and those who don't. From mike206 at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 08:53:09 2005 From: mike206 at gmail.com (mike) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:53:09 -0700 Subject: SPUG: A hash of hashes and arrays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: %perldoc -f ref ref EXPR ref Returns a true value if EXPR is a reference, false otherwise. If EXPR is not specified, "$_" will be used. The value returned depends on the type of thing the reference is a reference to. Builtin types include: SCALAR ARRAY HASH CODE REF GLOB LVALUE If the referenced object has been blessed into a package, then that package name is returned instead. You can think of "ref" as a "typeof" operator. if (ref($r) eq "HASH") { print "r is a reference to a hash.\n"; } unless (ref($r)) { print "r is not a reference at all.\n"; } if (UNIVERSAL::isa($r, "HASH")) { # for subclassing print "r is a reference to something that isa hash.\n"; } On 8/1/05, Duane Blanchard wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a hash of hashes and arrays. I'm able to print the all the keys > of the outer hash, and print the embedded hashes and arrays > individually, now I want to print the entire contents of the outer > (matrix) hash. > > I need something like: > > for each key in the outer hash > { if (the key is a reference to a hash) > { print the contents of the hash; > } > elsif (the key is a reference to an array) > { print the contents of the array; > } > } > > I have everything in place, but don't know how to tell whether I'm > looking at a hash or an array. > > Any hints? > > P.S. In linguistics, we call the embedded sentences "embedded > sentences," clever, I know, and those into which they are embedded > "matrix sentences." What is the parlance in Perl/formal languages? > > > Duane Blanchard > > There are 10 kinds of people in the world; > those who know binary and those who don't. > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From sthoenna at efn.org Mon Aug 1 08:58:32 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:58:32 -0700 Subject: SPUG: A hash of hashes and arrays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050801155832.GB3620@efn.org> On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 08:46:16AM -0700, Duane Blanchard wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a hash of hashes and arrays. I'm able to print the all the keys > of the outer hash, and print the embedded hashes and arrays > individually, now I want to print the entire contents of the outer > (matrix) hash. > > I need something like: > > for each key in the outer hash > { if (the key is a reference to a hash) I think you mean the value, not the key. > { print the contents of the hash; > } > elsif (the key is a reference to an array) > { print the contents of the array; > } > } > > I have everything in place, but don't know how to tell whether I'm > looking at a hash or an array. If there are no objects involved, this is easy. See perldoc -f ref while ( my ($key, $val) = each %outer_hash ) { if ( ref $val eq "HASH" ) { ... } elsif ( ref $val eq "ARRAY" ) { ... } else { warn "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto"; } } If there are objects involved, the problem is not generally solvable; you have to decide what you will treat as a hash and what as an array. From itayf at u.washington.edu Mon Aug 1 08:59:58 2005 From: itayf at u.washington.edu (Itay Furman) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: A hash of hashes and arrays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Duane Blanchard wrote: > Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:46:16 -0700 > From: Duane Blanchard > To: spug-list at pm.org > Subject: SPUG: A hash of hashes and arrays > > Hi all, > > I have a hash of hashes and arrays. I'm able to print the all the keys > of the outer hash, and print the embedded hashes and arrays > individually, now I want to print the entire contents of the outer > (matrix) hash. > It's worthwhile to familiarize yourself with the Data::Dumper module, which will do all the work for you in one line or so. It is part of the standard distribution so perldoc Data::Dumper should give you all the information. Itay ---------------------------------------------------------------- itayf at u.washington.edu / +1 (206) 543 9040 / Seattle, WA From cmauch at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 09:01:59 2005 From: cmauch at gmail.com (Charles Mauch) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:01:59 -0700 Subject: SPUG: filtering Message-ID: <20050801160159.GA21201@redbox.mauch.name> This probably isn't a perl specific question, but I've been trying to figure out how to solve a (probably simple) filtering task. I have a bunch of data, harvested from incoming emails, and I'd like to periodically clean it up. The format is pretty simple, with three fields tab delimited. user at domain.com Real Name Date Inserted Obviously, I get a bunch of duplicate data. I've been able to come up some perl code to sort that data by the second field, and even delete duplicate data where the date is the same. But I'd like to perform a filter where if (email & name) equal any other lines (email and name), then drop all other records which match except for the most current (denoted by the date). I don't need anybody to code this up, I'm just kind of at a loss where to start. Just looking for ideas on ways to do this. And no, this isn't for a spam program or anything. It's for my lbdb database, which mutt queries to autocomplete when composing emails. :) -- Take it easy Charles Mauch, [cmauch at gmail.com], Big Time Glue Eater Every message PGP or S/MIME signed to verify authenticity. ------------------------------------------------------------- "There are no great men, only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet." --- Admiral William Hasley -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050801/9b3886fd/attachment-0001.bin From schuh at farmdale.com Mon Aug 1 09:13:01 2005 From: schuh at farmdale.com (Mike Schuh) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: filtering In-Reply-To: <20050801160159.GA21201@redbox.mauch.name> Message-ID: Charles, >I have a bunch of data, harvested from incoming emails, and I'd like to >periodically clean it up. The format is pretty simple, with three fields >tab delimited. > >user at domain.com Real Name Date Inserted > >Obviously, I get a bunch of duplicate data. I've been able to come up some >perl code to sort that data by the second field, and even delete duplicate >data where the date is the same. But I'd like to perform a filter where if >(email & name) equal any other lines (email and name), then drop all other >records which match except for the most current (denoted by the date). Quick/dirty solution: read existing database for each record, create key of(email & name) use this key to insert date into a hash (but only if this record is the one you want to keep) do the same with the new data from your incoming data write the hash out as your new (updated) database -- Mike Schuh -- Seattle, Washington USA http://www.farmdale.com From iheffner at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 11:58:32 2005 From: iheffner at gmail.com (Ivan Heffner) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:58:32 -0700 Subject: SPUG: A hash of hashes and arrays In-Reply-To: <20050801155832.GB3620@efn.org> References: <20050801155832.GB3620@efn.org> Message-ID: On 8/1/05, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote: > > If there are no objects involved, this is easy. See perldoc -f ref > > while ( my ($key, $val) = each %outer_hash ) { > if ( ref $val eq "HASH" ) { > ... > } elsif ( ref $val eq "ARRAY" ) { > ... > } else { > warn "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto"; > } > } > > If there are objects involved, the problem is not generally solvable; you > have to decide what you will treat as a hash and what as an array. > You can still make this work (although not quite as nicely in some cases) if your values are objects. Objects are still references, they just have "specialness" (blessed). By changing the above equality tests to regexes, you can treat objects as the base data type: my $ref = ref $val; if (!defined $ref) { # simple scalar value } elsif ($ref =~ /HASH/) { ... } elsif ($ref =~ /ARRAY/) { ... } # other conditions for different data types (SCALAR, CODE, etc.) else { # catch-all if you didn't specifically handle the type } -- Ivan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050801/61efaf91/attachment.html From dblanchard at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 12:34:24 2005 From: dblanchard at gmail.com (Duane Blanchard) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:34:24 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Another hash/array question from Duane Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who has helped me out already, I'm nearly done (haha). I have looked at data::dumper and it will be very useful for part of this project, but I am also using this to teach myself (with great assistance from the group) more about data structures and references. Right now, I'm trying to print the zeroeth element of the zeroeth row of the hash in the embedded hash. I've had to sanitze the data for my client. On line 45 below, I want to print the first element of the first row of my multidimensional array. I've been through the perldoc for ref and reference. I've tried the arrow operator and doubling up my dollar signs. Nothing seems to work. Any further help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. D {print $outer_hash{$key}{$val}[0][0] . "\t"; # HERE IS THE STICKING POINT while (my ($key, $val) = each %right_wing_zone_IDs) { if (ref($val) eq "HASH") { print "KEY - $key\nVAL - $val\n\n"; print $array_name; for ($i = 0; $i < 3; $i++) { for ($j = 0; $j < 9; $j++) { print $right_wing_zone_IDs{$key}{$val}[$i][$j] . "\t"; # prints full 2D array } print "\n"; } } print "\n"; } %outer_hash = # hash of hashes and arrays ( hash1 => # hash of hashes { subhash1 => # hash of arrays of arrays [ ["element", "YES", "element"], ["element", "YES", "element"], ["element", "YES", "element"], ], }, hash2 => # hash of hashes [ ["element","element"], ["element","element"], ["element","element"], ], hash3 => # hash of hashes [ ["element","element"], ["element","element"], ["element","element"], ], ); while (my ($key, $val) = each %outer_hash) { if (ref($val) eq "HASH") { print "KEY - $key\n" . "VAL - $val\n\n"; for ($i = 0; $i < 3; $i++) { for ($j = 0; $j < 9; $j++) { print $outer_hash{$key}{$val}[$i][$j] . "\t"; # HERE IS THE STICKING POINT } print "\n"; } } print "\n"; } From sthoenna at efn.org Mon Aug 1 12:47:52 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:47:52 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Another hash/array question from Duane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050801194752.GA1056@efn.org> On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 12:34:24PM -0700, Duane Blanchard wrote: > Thanks to everyone who has helped me out already, I'm nearly done > (haha). I have looked at data::dumper and it will be very useful for > part of this project, but I am also using this to teach myself (with > great assistance from the group) more about data structures and > references. > > Right now, I'm trying to print the zeroeth element of the zeroeth row > of the hash in the embedded hash. I've had to sanitze the data for my > client. On line 45 below, I want to print the first element of the > first row of my multidimensional array. > > I've been through the perldoc for ref and reference. I've tried the > arrow operator and doubling up my dollar signs. Nothing seems to work. > Any further help would be greatly appreciated. I suggest reading the short but very helpful: http://perlmonks.org/?node=References+quick+reference before you go much further, and consulting it at every difficulty until you internalize the rules it presents. > while (my ($key, $val) = each %outer_hash) Ah, my fault; I was trying to show the above as an alternative to the easier: for my $key (keys %outer_hash) { } At each iteration, each() returns the key *and it's associated value* (in list context). That means instead of print $outer_hash{$key}{$val}[... you should be doing just: print $outer_hash{$key}[... or: print $val->[... ($val *is* $outer_hash{$key}, but you need the -> to show you are derefing the scalar reference in $val, as opposed to $val[... which is looking up an element in the array @val. > { if (ref($val) eq "HASH") > { print "KEY - $key\n" . > "VAL - $val\n\n"; > for ($i = 0; $i < 3; $i++) > { for ($j = 0; $j < 9; $j++) > { print $outer_hash{$key}{$val}[$i][$j] . "\t"; # HERE IS THE STICKING POINT > } > print "\n"; > } > } > print "\n"; > } From jlaney at u.washington.edu Mon Aug 1 12:57:37 2005 From: jlaney at u.washington.edu (Jim Laney) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:57:37 -0700 Subject: SPUG: UW career opportunity Message-ID: <42EE7EB1.70004@u.washington.edu> Hello, I'm a developer for the University of Washington's Catalyst Research and Development team. We are responsible for a suite of Web applications developed to meet the specific needs of UW faculty, staff, students, and researchers to support communication and collaboration. We develop applications using our own perl-based application framework, and are looking for a perl developer with OOP experience to join our team. To view the position description, follow this link: http://www.washington.edu/admin/hr/jobs/apl/ Click "External Candidates: Search and apply for UW jobs", and enter Req# 13918. Thanks, Jim -- Jim Laney, Software Developer Catalyst Research & Development Educational Partnerships & Learning Technologies University of Washington 206.616.8154 From andrew at seattleperl.org Tue Aug 2 17:34:04 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Practical mod_perl 2 - 8 August 2005 Message-ID: / / / / / / / / S P E C I A L / / / / / / / / / August 2005 Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting =================================================== Title: Practical mod_perl 2 Speaker: Stas Bekman Meeting Date: Monday, 8 August 2005 Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) Location: T.B.D. Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public Info: http://seattleperl.org/ =========================================== N.B.: This meeting will occur on MONDAY, the eighth (08) of August. Location to be determined (almost done). I just got to Portland and bumped into Stas. He's looking forward to see y'all. He'll be arriving in Seattle on Saturday morning. This is your chance to hang out with the mod_perl man and show him around Seattle this weekend. If you're interested, take up the banner and start a discussion on the list here. You lead the way. Don't be shy. If you'd like to prepare yourself for the presentation (tutorial, really), get the following documents: - http://stason.org/tmp/mod_perl-2.0-tutorial-handouts.pdf.gz - http://stason.org/tmp/mod_perl-2.0-tutorial-slides.pdf.gz See below for more information on... - Agenda - Speaker Background - Presentation Description Agenda ====== 7:00 - Meeting begins Announcements 7:05 - Presentation: Practical mod_perl 2 8:00 - Break 8:10 - Presentation (cont.) & Questions 9:00 - Adjourn Speaker Background ================== Stas Bekman is an open source developer, spending most of his time working on the ASF mod_perl project. He is an ASF member, online columnist, and a co-author of Practical mod_perl, published by O'Reilly Media, Inc. Presentation Description ======================== mod_perl 2.0 supports all the mod_perl 1.0 features and brings a whole lot of new functionality such as protocol and filter handlers, improved configuration access, threads support, and much more. This tutorial will get you up to speed with the new features, in addition to reviewing the old ones. Topics to be covered: - Getting Your Feet Wet - A quick introduction to mod_perl 2.0 - Protocol handlers - HTTP request handlers - Migrating from mod_perl 1.0 to 2.0 RSVP ==== Please send email to rsvp-august-2005-special at seattleperl.org if there's a 50% chance or better that you will show up at the meeting. We need this information to let building security know how many guest badges to prepare (they are dated for the event). Wow, email. Now that's hi-tech! From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 2 21:08:55 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: White Camel award to Stas Bekman Message-ID: Stas Bekman just received a White Camel award. But once again, the award is not on hand to give to him (but it's in town). -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From jobs-noreply at seattleperl.org Wed Aug 3 13:32:34 2005 From: jobs-noreply at seattleperl.org (SPUG Jobs) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: JOB: Perl Software Developer, Search, Seattle Message-ID: Perl software developer position at Jobster, working on their core vertical job search engine. Jobster provides the leading targeted job advertising service, allowing companies to go beyond active jobseekers and enabling the highest quality professionals to stand out from the crowd. Jobster is a well-funded startup with a close knit team and fun working environment. Our offices are a loft in Seattle's Pioneer Square area. We offer competitive benefits and salary packages. This is a permanent position. Candidates will work on site in the Seattle area; they must be US Citizens or have a green card. To apply for this opportunity, or to forward it on, please use the following link: http://service.jobster.com/view.html?i=XKGEBHUVZUAP Position: Perl Software Developer, Search (Engineering) Join the team that builds Jobster's core vertical job search engine. We are a small but growing development team operating on rapid development cycles, so your impact on the Jobster product can be felt immediately! Fun, casual working environment with a great team. Requirements: - Minimum 3 years experience building scalable web-based applications. - Advanced OO Perl experience required - Experience with Apache web server - specifically Mod_Perl under Apache on Linux is preferred - Database development expertise (DBI) is required and MySQL is preferred. - Experience with fulltext search engines like Lucene and swish-e preferred. - Must be comfortable with an open source-like development environment including tools like Linux, CVS (or equivalent), Vi or Emacs, Bash, CPAN etc. To apply: http://service.jobster.com/view.html?i=XKGEBHUVZUAP From andrew at sweger.net Wed Aug 3 16:20:36 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: JOB: Seattle Perl jobs Message-ID: Hey, I was just talking to some folks from CarDomain.com and Whitepages.com here at OSCON. They're in Seattle and they're still looking for a few good Perl folks (and QA!). http://www.cardomain.net/jobs http://www.whitepagesinc.com/careers If you're looking, check 'em out. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From andrew at sweger.net Wed Aug 3 17:42:26 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: JOB: Seattle Perl jobs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I forgot to mention, I know several folks involved (especially Whitepages.com). I think they have a fun and lively development environment (and a management [and executive] commitment to keep it that way). On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > Hey, > > I was just talking to some folks from CarDomain.com and Whitepages.com > here at OSCON. They're in Seattle and they're still looking for a few good > Perl folks (and QA!). > > http://www.cardomain.net/jobs > > http://www.whitepagesinc.com/careers > > If you're looking, check 'em out. > > -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From andrew at sweger.net Wed Aug 3 20:00:05 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund Message-ID: Okay, I know. I know. I'm really pushing it with all the spam here. I'm sorry. But I just talked to Chip Salzenberg to find out if the whole employer lawsuit thing was for realz. Yep, it's real. They really set up him the bomb. I wasn't really sure whether to believe the story since I hadn't talked to anyone close to the issue about it ("But I read it on the Internet!"). If you'd like to learn more about this issue or would like to donate to help with Chip's mounting legal fees ($40k and climbing), check out: http://geeksunite.net/donate.html By the way, what other SPUGers are here that I haven't bumped into yet? -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From kmeyer at blarg.net Thu Aug 4 09:00:14 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:00:14 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I spent 10 minute on the linked site and still have essentially no idea what this dispute is about. Can you elaborate? Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Andrew Sweger Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:00 PM To: SPUG Members Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund Okay, I know. I know. I'm really pushing it with all the spam here. I'm sorry. But I just talked to Chip Salzenberg to find out if the whole employer lawsuit thing was for realz. Yep, it's real. They really set up him the bomb. I wasn't really sure whether to believe the story since I hadn't talked to anyone close to the issue about it ("But I read it on the Internet!"). If you'd like to learn more about this issue or would like to donate to help with Chip's mounting legal fees ($40k and climbing), check out: http://geeksunite.net/donate.html By the way, what other SPUGers are here that I haven't bumped into yet? -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From bill at celestial.com Thu Aug 4 09:42:04 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:42:04 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050804164204.GA56138@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Thu, Aug 04, 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: >I spent 10 minute on the linked site and still have essentially no idea what >this dispute is about. Can you elaborate? It appears to me that Chip found the company was engaging in highly dubious practices (e.g. scraping information from web sites using zombied proxies without their owners permission), and sent the company a letter advising them of the illegality of their actions and that he would have no part of it. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you. -- Will Rogers From christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com Thu Aug 4 09:56:15 2005 From: christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com (Cantrall, Christopher W) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:56:15 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund Message-ID: <2D5554EEA97F6B45BA9A8623D985BAAA010768CF@XCH-NW-1V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> Essentially, Chip's being screwed for being conscientious. The company Chip worked for was committing acts which are either immoral or illegal (harvesting consumer info without express permission), and Chip called them on it. When he shouted loudly enough, they started to "annoy" him legally. For instance, his accessing work servers from home (to get work done, before this mess started) is being called a crime. They were trying to intimidate him & shut him up, but that backfired. They now seem to be trying to send a warning to others or "make him pay". FYI, all of that is from memory, I can't connect to http://geeksunite.net/ right now. ________________________________________ Chris Cantrall chris at cantrall.org Structural Analyst, Door Design Center -----Original Message----- From: Ken Meyer [mailto:kmeyer at blarg.net] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 9:00 AM To: Andrew Sweger; SPUG Members Subject: Re: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund I spent 10 minute on the linked site and still have essentially no idea what this dispute is about. Can you elaborate? Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Andrew Sweger Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:00 PM To: SPUG Members Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund Okay, I know. I know. I'm really pushing it with all the spam here. I'm sorry. But I just talked to Chip Salzenberg to find out if the whole employer lawsuit thing was for realz. Yep, it's real. They really set up him the bomb. I wasn't really sure whether to believe the story since I hadn't talked to anyone close to the issue about it ("But I read it on the Internet!"). If you'd like to learn more about this issue or would like to donate to help with Chip's mounting legal fees ($40k and climbing), check out: http://geeksunite.net/donate.html By the way, what other SPUGers are here that I haven't bumped into yet? -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From jerry.gay at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 09:56:33 2005 From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:56:33 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d9a3f40050804095651899f97@mail.gmail.com> in a few words: chip found out his employer was doing immoral and possibly illegal things. he threatened suit. they fired him and sued him on a made up charge. his home computer equipment was seized by the police, turned over to his former employer, and his disks were imaged, all illegally. he's since recovered his possessions (i believe,) but the damage has been done, and he's left with legal fees. the seizure of his possessions has broad legal ramifications which may affect any telecommuter. chip is a friend of mine, and while this situation is a terrible event for him and his family, and is harmful to the perl community due to the fact that this is delaying his work in the position of Chief Architect of Parrot (the virtual machine destined to run Perl 6,) the broader legal issue is the primary reason for geeks to pay close attention to this case. ~jerry On 8/4/05, Ken Meyer wrote: > I spent 10 minute on the linked site and still have essentially no idea what > this dispute is about. Can you elaborate? > > Ken Meyer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On > Behalf Of Andrew Sweger > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:00 PM > To: SPUG Members > > Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund > > Okay, I know. I know. I'm really pushing it with all the spam here. I'm > sorry. But I just talked to Chip Salzenberg to find out if the whole > employer lawsuit thing was for realz. Yep, it's real. They really set up > him the bomb. I wasn't really sure whether to believe the story since I > hadn't talked to anyone close to the issue about it ("But I read it on the > Internet!"). If you'd like to learn more about this issue or would like to > donate to help with Chip's mounting legal fees ($40k and climbing), check > out: > > http://geeksunite.net/donate.html > > By the way, what other SPUGers are here that I haven't bumped into yet? > > -- > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several > things can go wrong at once. > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From andrew at seattleperl.org Thu Aug 4 10:38:57 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Practical mod_perl 2 - 8 August 2005 Message-ID: Location confirmed. Thanks to Ali, again, for hosting us at Amazon.com PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO R.S.V.P. (see below) People have paid billions of dollars to see this presentation. Don't miss this golden opportunity. N.B.: THIS COMING MONEY, NEXT WEEK / / / / / / / / S P E C I A L / / / / / / / / / August 2005 Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting =================================================== Title: Practical mod_perl 2 Speaker: Stas Bekman Meeting Date: Monday, 8 August 2005 Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med Building Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public Info: http://seattleperl.org/ =========================================== N.B.: This meeting will occur on MONDAY, the eighth (08) of August. Location to be determined (almost done). I just got to Portland and bumped into Stas. He's looking forward to see y'all. He'll be arriving in Seattle on Saturday morning. This is your chance to hang out with the mod_perl man and show him around Seattle this weekend. If you're interested, take up the banner and start a discussion on the list here. You lead the way. Don't be shy. If you'd like to prepare yourself for the presentation (tutorial, really), get the following documents: - http://stason.org/tmp/mod_perl-2.0-tutorial-handouts.pdf.gz - http://stason.org/tmp/mod_perl-2.0-tutorial-slides.pdf.gz See below for more information on... - Agenda - Speaker Background - Presentation Description - RSVP - Pre-meeting Dinner - Internet Access at Meeting (WiFi!) - PGP/GnuPG Key Exchange - Directions to Meeting - Directions from Meeting Agenda ====== 7:00 - Meeting begins Announcements 7:05 - Presentation: Practical mod_perl 2 8:00 - Break 8:10 - Presentation (cont.) & Questions 9:00 - Adjourn Speaker Background ================== Stas Bekman is an open source developer, spending most of his time working on the ASF mod_perl project. He is an ASF member, online columnist, and a co-author of Practical mod_perl, published by O'Reilly Media, Inc. Presentation Description ======================== mod_perl 2.0 supports all the mod_perl 1.0 features and brings a whole lot of new functionality such as protocol and filter handlers, improved configuration access, threads support, and much more. This tutorial will get you up to speed with the new features, in addition to reviewing the old ones. Topics to be covered: - Getting Your Feet Wet - A quick introduction to mod_perl 2.0 - Protocol handlers - HTTP request handlers - Migrating from mod_perl 1.0 to 2.0 RSVP ==== Please send email to rsvp-august-2005-special at seattleperl.org if there's a 50% chance or better that you will show up at the meeting. We need this information to let building security know how many guest badges to prepare (they are dated for the event). Wow, email. Now that's hi-tech! Pre-meeting Dinner ================== No plans. Feel free to instantiate an instance via the mailing list. Internet Access at Meeting ========================== A link to the Internet will be provided at the meeting (provided you have suitable equipment). Tables, power strips, and Ethernet hubs will be available in limited quantity. 802.11g WiFi will be available. Please use the SSID: SPUG. The beacon will be broadcasting. No WEP/WPA. Please note that the provided network services are _not_ secure. As I'm sure most of you know, it is a trivial matter to "sniff" network traffic. Please use a secure application encryption protocol or other secure VPN solution to protect sensitive information. Use of the the provided network services is at your own risk. Be a good network citizen. The network services are provided gratis by our hosts. Access can be revoked at any time without prior notification. PGP/GnuPG Key Exchange ====================== If you want to exchange PGP/GnuPG signatures, please contact me directly with your public key (now!) and I'll bring fingerprint checklists for participants. Contact me if you want to know more. Oh, and you have to show up at the meeting to exchange ID's and all that, please. Otherwise this whole key exchange thing doesn't work. Directions to Meeting ===================== Our meeting will take place at the Amazon.com headquarters at 1200 12th Ave S, Seattle, Washington. Please let me know if you find errors or a better route. Thanks. I-5 (from North or South) ------------------------- On I-5, take the S Dearborn St exit and turn West on Dearborn (I-5 Southbound: turn right; I-5 Northbound: turn left) and proceed approximately one or two blocks. Turn right on 8th Ave S (the first light) and proceed North for three blocks. Turn right on S King St and proceed East for approximately five blocks. You will pass under I-5. Turn right on 12th Ave S and proceed South for approximately five blocks. Along this way, you will cross over the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge and you should see the Pac-Med tower directly ahead. At this point, notice that you have been going in a circle. Skip to Pac-Med Building below. I-90 (from East) ---------------- On I-90, take the Rainier Ave S (hwy 900) exit Northbound and proceed approximately six blocks. Turn left on S King St and proceed West for approximately two blocks. Turn left on 12th Ave S and proceed South for approximately five blocks. Along this way, you will cross over the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge and you should see the Pac-Med tower directly ahead. Pac-Med Building ---------------- Turn right at Charles St (the light after the bridge). The Amazon.com Pac-Med building is visible ahead and on the left as you make the turn and proceed South on Charles (Charles borders the West side of the building). The North parking lot entrance will be the second drive way on the left (the first has a Do Not Enter sign). The parking lot is on the left just past the parking attendant booth. The "carpool only" spaces should be okay to park in after 6:30. Walk to the South entrance of the tower. There is stair next to the parking garage structure that leads to a convenient path that goes around the building to the main entrance on the South side of the building. Enter building and go to the security desk. Sign in and wait to be escorted to the meeting room (just like when we met at Safeco in the U-district, more or less). Google Maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1200%2012th%20ave%20s%2C%20seattle%2C%20wa&spn=0.017365%2C0.032945 Directions from Meeting ======================= Getting Back Onto I-5 Southbound -------------------------------- Although there is an I-5 northbound exit at S Dearborn St, there is no entrance back onto southbound I-5 at Dearborn. So don't bother trying to simply go back the same way you came. Exit the Pac-Med parking lot on the East side of building (this is Golf Dr S) and turn right. Bear left onto 15th Ave S (the right fork is 14th Ave S. Proceed approximately 1.5 miles. Turn right on S Spokane St and go down steep hill. Turn right at light and follow signs to I-5 southbound. If you exit the Pac-Med parking lot on the West side of the building, turn right on 12th Ave S and then right again on Golf Dr S (the light is the one at the South end of the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge). Continue as above. Technically, there's another way onto I-5 SB, but it involves some other crazy route that I'm not going to provide here. From kmeyer at blarg.net Thu Aug 4 10:48:32 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:48:32 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: <20050804164204.GA56138@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Bill. I sort of got the drift of that, but the question remains in my mind: what are these "dubious practices". Scraping what? Can it be downloading pages? Highly unlikely to be a problem, as that is what the web is about and magnitude of the process, while perhaps questionable, doesn't appear to me to be illegal. Burrowing into the web server to retrieve information that is on the server but not displayed? Well, kind of the inverse of spyware, but spyware is endemic, albeit loathsome, and as far as I can tell, not really illegal at this point. It's still not clear whether Chip has not been excessively sanctimonious about this practice, whatever it is, not to mention naive about corporate prerogatives. Note that Bev Harris, of Black Box Voting notoriety, found accidentally that Diebold, the electronic voting machine people, had apparently left their software development files sharing space on their web server and open to the Internet. She downloaded a large pile of CD's worth of information, which she has shared and which has given invaluable insight into how lousy the Diebold equipment is (and the Diebold CEO? has been quoted as saying that he "..would do anything to see George W. Bush elected). Although Bev has received a lot of "cease and desist" orders, she is not in the slammer -- or even indicted. Now, regardless of the wisdom -- or lack of it -- of blowing the whistle on your boss for practices that are not patently illegal, so that you might get protection from whistle-blower laws, there is the aspect of the police seizing his computer. This seems to me to potentially be a huge, generic problem; but needs to be addressed by such as the ACLU on very broad grounds. That is, we know that computers owned by our employers at work can be searched at will, and that e-mail that you send, even if you don't store it, can be examined and sites you visit can be tracked -- "all your keystrokes are belong to us". So, what if you use your computer at home to telecommute? Does this computer then become open, in toto, to seizure and searching by the employer? Whoa! That's worth a legal battle for sure. But in lieu of specific legal protection, how can one protect him/herself? Use a computer exclusively for the remote access to work sites and not for any personal use? Don't load necessary software to access your work on the personal-use computers on your network, so you can prove that it/they weren't connected to the company net? Make the company prove what MAC addresses connected to their net -- well MAC's aren't immutable any more? Any ideas? How do privacy protections apply here? Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Bill Campbell Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 9:42 AM To: SPUG Members Subject: Re: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund On Thu, Aug 04, 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: >I spent 10 minute on the linked site and still have essentially no idea what >this dispute is about. Can you elaborate? It appears to me that Chip found the company was engaging in highly dubious practices (e.g. scraping information from web sites using zombied proxies without their owners permission), and sent the company a letter advising them of the illegality of their actions and that he would have no part of it. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you. -- Will Rogers _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From essuu at ourshack.com Thu Aug 4 11:03:16 2005 From: essuu at ourshack.com (Simon Wilcox) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:03:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: > Thanks, Bill. I sort of got the drift of that, but the question remains in > my mind: what are these "dubious practices". Scraping what? Can it be [snip] > Use a computer exclusively for the remote access to work sites and not for > any personal use? Don't load necessary software to access your work on the > personal-use computers on your network, so you can prove that it/they > weren't connected to the company net? Make the company prove what MAC > addresses connected to their net -- well MAC's aren't immutable any more? > Any ideas? How do privacy protections apply here? The point seems to be that once Chip had run afoul of his bosses they were able to get *every* *single* *machine* at his home address impounded by the police using some basic request to a judge without anything much to back it up. I can't check the exact details, geeksunite.net seems to be down but iirc they took everything including machines not actually belonging to him based on some flimsy pretext. Chip has no comeback, it would appear, and is trying to warn others that this may happen to them if they are a tele-worker. When the site is back I should be able to point to a better explanation ! S. From bill at celestial.com Thu Aug 4 11:14:51 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:14:51 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: References: <20050804164204.GA56138@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <20050804181451.GA63282@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Thu, Aug 04, 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: >Thanks, Bill. I sort of got the drift of that, but the question remains in >my mind: what are these "dubious practices". Scraping what? Can it be >downloading pages? Highly unlikely to be a problem, as that is what the web >is about and magnitude of the process, while perhaps questionable, doesn't >appear to me to be illegal. Burrowing into the web server to retrieve >information that is on the server but not displayed? Well, kind of the >inverse of spyware, but spyware is endemic, albeit loathsome, and as far as >I can tell, not really illegal at this point. It's still not clear whether >Chip has not been excessively sanctimonious about this practice, whatever it >is, not to mention naive about corporate prerogatives. I read the PDF of the letter that Chip wrote which claimed that the company was doing things like ignoring the ROBOTS.TXT files (and documentation in the code the company write referenced the appropriate documents about ROBOTS.TXT so they can't claim ignorance), ignored complaints from webmasters about their activities -- including the Washington State Government sites, took steps to circumvent attempts to block their scraping including use of open proxies, etc. In the letter, Chip said that he had met with the corporate management, explaining the legal and ethical issues. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.'' --Thomas Jefferson. From cos at indeterminate.net Thu Aug 4 11:56:37 2005 From: cos at indeterminate.net (John Costello) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Slashdot article from June is at and gives a good summary. His claim is that his former employers were using "open proxies for web harvesting to avoid blockage by web site operators." Some information from geeksunite.net may be found in Google's cache. ----- John Costello - cos at indeterminate dot net From andrew at seattleperl.org Thu Aug 4 14:36:43 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting CORRECTION -- Practical mod_perl2 - 8 August 2005 Message-ID: The meeting has been moved up to 5:30 pm to account for the incredible four hours of information that will be provided (I missed the clues pointing out that it is a four hour long tutorial he gives at conferences and training). Please note the prep materials below. I'll have printouts of the handout available at the meeting (if you RSVP!). The tutorial will start at 6:00 pm. Please arrive between 5:30 pm and 6:00 pm for security checkin and socializing. / / / / / / / / S P E C I A L / / / / / / / / / August 2005 Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting =================================================== Title: Practical mod_perl 2 Speaker: Stas Bekman Meeting Date: Monday, 8 August 2005 Meeting Time: 6:00 - 10:00 p.m. (networking 5:30 - 6:00) Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med Building Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public Info: http://seattleperl.org/ =========================================== If you'd like to prepare yourself for the presentation (tutorial, really), get the following documents: - http://stason.org/tmp/mod_perl-2.0-tutorial-handouts.pdf.gz - http://stason.org/tmp/mod_perl-2.0-tutorial-slides.pdf.gz See below for more information on... - Agenda - Speaker Background - Presentation Description - RSVP - Pre-meeting Dinner - Internet Access at Meeting (WiFi!) - PGP/GnuPG Key Exchange - Directions to Meeting - Directions from Meeting Agenda ====== 7:00 - Meeting begins Announcements 7:05 - Presentation: Practical mod_perl 2 8:00 - Break 8:10 - Presentation (cont.) & Questions 9:00 - Adjourn Speaker Background ================== Stas Bekman is an open source developer, spending most of his time working on the ASF mod_perl project. He is an ASF member, online columnist, and a co-author of Practical mod_perl, published by O'Reilly Media, Inc. Presentation Description ======================== mod_perl 2.0 supports all the mod_perl 1.0 features and brings a whole lot of new functionality such as protocol and filter handlers, improved configuration access, threads support, and much more. This tutorial will get you up to speed with the new features, in addition to reviewing the old ones. Topics to be covered: - Getting Your Feet Wet - A quick introduction to mod_perl 2.0 - Protocol handlers - HTTP request handlers - Migrating from mod_perl 1.0 to 2.0 RSVP ==== Please send email to rsvp-august-2005-special at seattleperl.org if there's a 50% chance or better that you will show up at the meeting. We need this information to let building security know how many guest badges to prepare (they are dated for the event). Wow, email. Now that's hi-tech! Pre-meeting Dinner ================== No plans. Feel free to instantiate an instance via the mailing list. Internet Access at Meeting ========================== A link to the Internet will be provided at the meeting (provided you have suitable equipment). Tables, power strips, and Ethernet hubs will be available in limited quantity. 802.11g WiFi will be available. Please use the SSID: SPUG. The beacon will be broadcasting. No WEP/WPA. Please note that the provided network services are _not_ secure. As I'm sure most of you know, it is a trivial matter to "sniff" network traffic. Please use a secure application encryption protocol or other secure VPN solution to protect sensitive information. Use of the the provided network services is at your own risk. Be a good network citizen. The network services are provided gratis by our hosts. Access can be revoked at any time without prior notification. PGP/GnuPG Key Exchange ====================== If you want to exchange PGP/GnuPG signatures, please contact me directly with your public key (now!) and I'll bring fingerprint checklists for participants. Contact me if you want to know more. Oh, and you have to show up at the meeting to exchange ID's and all that, please. Otherwise this whole key exchange thing doesn't work. Directions to Meeting ===================== Our meeting will take place at the Amazon.com headquarters at 1200 12th Ave S, Seattle, Washington. Please let me know if you find errors or a better route. Thanks. I-5 (from North or South) ------------------------- On I-5, take the S Dearborn St exit and turn West on Dearborn (I-5 Southbound: turn right; I-5 Northbound: turn left) and proceed approximately one or two blocks. Turn right on 8th Ave S (the first light) and proceed North for three blocks. Turn right on S King St and proceed East for approximately five blocks. You will pass under I-5. Turn right on 12th Ave S and proceed South for approximately five blocks. Along this way, you will cross over the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge and you should see the Pac-Med tower directly ahead. At this point, notice that you have been going in a circle. Skip to Pac-Med Building below. I-90 (from East) ---------------- On I-90, take the Rainier Ave S (hwy 900) exit Northbound and proceed approximately six blocks. Turn left on S King St and proceed West for approximately two blocks. Turn left on 12th Ave S and proceed South for approximately five blocks. Along this way, you will cross over the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge and you should see the Pac-Med tower directly ahead. Pac-Med Building ---------------- Turn right at Charles St (the light after the bridge). The Amazon.com Pac-Med building is visible ahead and on the left as you make the turn and proceed South on Charles (Charles borders the West side of the building). The North parking lot entrance will be the second drive way on the left (the first has a Do Not Enter sign). The parking lot is on the left just past the parking attendant booth. The "carpool only" spaces should be okay to park in after 6:30. Walk to the South entrance of the tower. There is stair next to the parking garage structure that leads to a convenient path that goes around the building to the main entrance on the South side of the building. Enter building and go to the security desk. Sign in and wait to be escorted to the meeting room (just like when we met at Safeco in the U-district, more or less). Google Maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1200%2012th%20ave%20s%2C%20seattle%2C%20wa&spn=0.017365%2C0.032945 Directions from Meeting ======================= Getting Back Onto I-5 Southbound -------------------------------- Although there is an I-5 northbound exit at S Dearborn St, there is no entrance back onto southbound I-5 at Dearborn. So don't bother trying to simply go back the same way you came. Exit the Pac-Med parking lot on the East side of building (this is Golf Dr S) and turn right. Bear left onto 15th Ave S (the right fork is 14th Ave S. Proceed approximately 1.5 miles. Turn right on S Spokane St and go down steep hill. Turn right at light and follow signs to I-5 southbound. If you exit the Pac-Med parking lot on the West side of the building, turn right on 12th Ave S and then right again on Golf Dr S (the light is the one at the South end of the Dr. Jose P. Rizal bridge). Continue as above. Technically, there's another way onto I-5 SB, but it involves some other crazy route that I'm not going to provide here. _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From andrew at seattleperl.org Thu Aug 4 14:49:59 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: A weekend with Stas Bekman Message-ID: Stas arrives at Sea-Tac on Saturday morning at 11:39 am. Stas needs a place to stay and he's interested in seeing the sights or taking in some of the natural beauty of the Pacific Northwest. This is where you come in. I know some folks got in touch with me a long time ago. That hard drive got zapped in an industrial accident. If you're interested in hanging out with Stas this weekend or hosting or driving him around, please speak up. Please reply to the list! Discuss amongst yourselves. If nobody writes to the list about it, it means it's not happening. Thank you! -- Andrew B. Sweger | P.O. Box 33147 President | Seattle WA 98133 Seattle Perl Users Group | (206) 219-7119 andrew{at}seattleperl.org | http://seattleperl.org/ From kmeyer at blarg.net Thu Aug 4 16:06:36 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:06:36 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: <20050804181451.GA63282@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: My desire to understand this has trumped my desire to conceal my lack of geeky sophistication. Is an "open proxy" used simply to evade an attempt by sites to specifically block this company's bots and not others? What about robots.txt; seems to me that this file implements no more than a "gentlemen's agreement", rather than a legal barrier, such as a password to access a computer on a network that is not intended for public access, such as a web server? Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia: "Because proxies are implicated in abuse, system administrators have developed a number of ways to refuse service to open proxies. IRC networks such as the Blitzed network automatically test client systems for known types of open proxy. [1] Likewise, a mail server may be configured to automatically test mail senders for open proxies, using software such as Michael Tokarev's proxycheck. [2]" So why have these techniques not been effective against the subject "scraping" in point (by the way, I thought that "scraping" referred to getting text off a screen shot that is in raster format, i.e. OCR, not actually snarfing the ASCII)? So, when is one hacking into a system and when is one simple accessing material that is exposed and fair game, whether that is desirable or not? What sort of material was this company harvesting? Does it bear on privacy, which is a very tight subject in the case of medical information -- HIPAA philosophy is highly prevalent. Where are Mr. Salzenberg's computers now? Are there contents intact? Who has control of any files copied from them? It is unwise to address this problem via an organization called "geeksunite", which is certainly off-putting to the majority of the population, which if they are not actually repelled by the geek image, will presume that the subject will be beyond their comprehension. If there are truly illegal acts going on, isn't a counterattack possible? If civil liberties have been violated, certainly the usual organizations will be alarmed and will provide support. What about the ACLU and the EFF to defend Mr. Salzenberg? I would rather support a well-known champion of the individual than directly to an individual who has not defined the problem or his approach to addressing it in other than vague terms -- or is the vagueness simply a product of my lack of understanding of the technical details of what is going on here. By the way, I don't consider this to be "OT" at all, as subjects that bear on the livelihoods of the computing technical community are subsumed by any and all more specific technical discussions -- IMHO. Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Bill Campbell Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 11:15 AM To: SPUG Members Subject: Re: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund On Thu, Aug 04, 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: >Thanks, Bill. I sort of got the drift of that, but the question remains in >my mind: what are these "dubious practices". Scraping what? Can it be >downloading pages? Highly unlikely to be a problem, as that is what the web >is about and magnitude of the process, while perhaps questionable, doesn't >appear to me to be illegal. Burrowing into the web server to retrieve >information that is on the server but not displayed? Well, kind of the >inverse of spyware, but spyware is endemic, albeit loathsome, and as far as >I can tell, not really illegal at this point. It's still not clear whether >Chip has not been excessively sanctimonious about this practice, whatever it >is, not to mention naive about corporate prerogatives. I read the PDF of the letter that Chip wrote which claimed that the company was doing things like ignoring the ROBOTS.TXT files (and documentation in the code the company wrote referenced the appropriate documents about ROBOTS.TXT, so they can't claim ignorance), ignored complaints from webmasters about their activities -- including the Washington State Government sites, took steps to circumvent attempts to block their scraping, including use of open proxies, etc. In the letter, Chip said that he had met with the corporate management, explaining the legal and ethical issues. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.'' --Thomas Jefferson. _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From jerry.gay at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 17:15:36 2005 From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:15:36 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: References: <20050804181451.GA63282@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <1d9a3f4005080417152a958cb6@mail.gmail.com> i made chip aware that geeksunite.net is down, he's trying to redirect the mirrors. i also mentioned that he might catch up with andrew and, if he wished to respond, andrew might provide him with the questions that have been gathered on this thread. more to come, perhaps. ~jerry From jlb at io.com Thu Aug 4 18:23:35 2005 From: jlb at io.com (jlb) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:23:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050804200811.W11441@eris.io.com> The methods IRC servers and Mail servers use aren't appropriate for web sites because they introduce significant delay to each and every connection. Even if the information were cached, the initial connection would be slow enough to drive many web users away. Just speaking as someone who has run a website and encountered some of these issues: Frequently "web bots" are very poorly behaved, issuing bursts of thousands of requests in a row, at frequent intervals. This can often impact other legitimate users of the site, as well as potentially costing the site money in bandwidth and hosting. There is a big difference between some person running a recursive wget on your site once to mirror it for their own personal use, and someone frequently and aggressively running screen scraping bots against it in an automated fashion. If a web site has a robots.txt indicating they dont wish to be spidered, and have gone so far as to ban a single misbehaving bot multiple times, only to have those bans evaded...well, at what point does it become "bad?" On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: > My desire to understand this has trumped my desire to conceal my lack of > geeky sophistication. > > Is an "open proxy" used simply to evade an attempt by sites to specifically > block this company's bots and not others? > > What about robots.txt; seems to me that this file implements no more than a > "gentlemen's agreement", rather than a legal barrier, such as a password to > access a computer on a network that is not intended for public access, such > as a web server? > > Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia: > > "Because proxies are implicated in abuse, system administrators have > developed a number of ways to refuse service to open proxies. IRC networks > such as the Blitzed network automatically test client systems for known > types of open proxy. [1] Likewise, a mail server may be configured to > automatically test mail senders for open proxies, using software such as > Michael Tokarev's proxycheck. [2]" > > So why have these techniques not been effective against the subject > "scraping" in point (by the way, I thought that "scraping" referred to > getting text off a screen shot that is in raster format, i.e. OCR, not > actually snarfing the ASCII)? > > So, when is one hacking into a system and when is one simple accessing > material that is exposed and fair game, whether that is desirable or not? > > What sort of material was this company harvesting? Does it bear on privacy, > which is a very tight subject in the case of medical information -- HIPAA > philosophy is highly prevalent. > > Where are Mr. Salzenberg's computers now? Are there contents intact? Who > has control of any files copied from them? > > It is unwise to address this problem via an organization called > "geeksunite", which is certainly off-putting to the majority of the > population, which if they are not actually repelled by the geek image, will > presume that the subject will be beyond their comprehension. If there are > truly illegal acts going on, isn't a counterattack possible? If civil > liberties have been violated, certainly the usual organizations will be > alarmed and will provide support. What about the ACLU and the EFF to defend > Mr. Salzenberg? I would rather support a well-known champion of the > individual than directly to an individual who has not defined the problem or > his approach to addressing it in other than vague terms -- or is the > vagueness simply a product of my lack of understanding of the technical > details of what is going on here. > > By the way, I don't consider this to be "OT" at all, as subjects that bear > on the livelihoods of the computing technical community are subsumed by any > and all more specific technical discussions -- IMHO. > > Ken Meyer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org] > On Behalf Of Bill Campbell > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 11:15 AM > To: SPUG Members > > Subject: Re: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund > > On Thu, Aug 04, 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: > >> Thanks, Bill. I sort of got the drift of that, but the question remains in >> my mind: what are these "dubious practices". Scraping what? Can it be >> downloading pages? Highly unlikely to be a problem, as that is what the > web >> is about and magnitude of the process, while perhaps questionable, doesn't >> appear to me to be illegal. Burrowing into the web server to retrieve >> information that is on the server but not displayed? Well, kind of the >> inverse of spyware, but spyware is endemic, albeit loathsome, and as far as >> I can tell, not really illegal at this point. It's still not clear whether >> Chip has not been excessively sanctimonious about this practice, whatever > it >> is, not to mention naive about corporate prerogatives. > > I read the PDF of the letter that Chip wrote which claimed that the company > was doing things like ignoring the ROBOTS.TXT files (and documentation in > the code the company wrote referenced the appropriate documents about > ROBOTS.TXT, so they can't claim ignorance), ignored complaints from > webmasters about their activities -- including the Washington State > Government sites, took steps to circumvent attempts to block their scraping, > including use of open proxies, etc. In the letter, Chip said that he had > met with the corporate management, explaining the legal and ethical issues. > > Bill > -- > INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC > UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way > FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 > URL: http://www.celestial.com/ > > ``My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results > from too much government.'' --Thomas Jefferson. > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From andrew at seattleperl.org Fri Aug 5 07:19:39 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: A weekend with Stas Bekman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anybody? No one wants to set up an Open Sauce Dinner even? A hike up Rainier? On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > Stas arrives at Sea-Tac on Saturday morning at 11:39 am. Stas needs a > place to stay and he's interested in seeing the sights or taking in some > of the natural beauty of the Pacific Northwest. This is where you come in. > I know some folks got in touch with me a long time ago. That hard drive > got zapped in an industrial accident. If you're interested in hanging out > with Stas this weekend or hosting or driving him around, please speak up. > Please reply to the list! Discuss amongst yourselves. If nobody writes to > the list about it, it means it's not happening. -- Andrew B. Sweger | P.O. Box 33147 President | Seattle WA 98133 Seattle Perl Users Group | (206) 219-7119 andrew{at}seattleperl.org | http://seattleperl.org/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Aug 5 07:40:31 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:40:31 -0700 Subject: SPUG: A weekend with Stas Bekman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050805144031.GA14454@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Andy, I won't be attending the marathon tutorial session after all; so hang on to the mug for a bit longer! 8-} -- *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Fall, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://minimalperl.com for details, ordering, and email-list signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From wyllie at dilex.net Fri Aug 5 04:51:18 2005 From: wyllie at dilex.net (Andrew Wyllie) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:51:18 -0400 Subject: SPUG: A weekend with Stas Bekman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F352B6.3080609@dilex.net> Andrew Sweger wrote: >Anybody? No one wants to set up an Open Sauce Dinner even? A hike up >Rainier? > > > hmmm, I wish I still lived in Seattle. See if he's interested in coming out to Kentucky - bourbon, horse farms, bourbon, etc. Andrew >On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > > > >>Stas arrives at Sea-Tac on Saturday morning at 11:39 am. Stas needs a >>place to stay and he's interested in seeing the sights or taking in some >>of the natural beauty of the Pacific Northwest. This is where you come in. >>I know some folks got in touch with me a long time ago. That hard drive >>got zapped in an industrial accident. If you're interested in hanging out >>with Stas this weekend or hosting or driving him around, please speak up. >>Please reply to the list! Discuss amongst yourselves. If nobody writes to >>the list about it, it means it's not happening. >> >> > > > From jerry.gay at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 10:43:08 2005 From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:43:08 -0700 Subject: SPUG: A weekend with Stas Bekman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d9a3f400508051043291504d0@mail.gmail.com> i'll happily host stas at my place. i'll send him an email with the details, and make sure he makes it to pac-med monday for the meeting. if anyone wants to meet up with him over the weekend you can reach me via email or on my mobile at 201.220.3139. we'll probably see the blue angels on saturday and visit rainier early sunday morning. ~jerry On 8/5/05, Andrew Sweger wrote: > Anybody? No one wants to set up an Open Sauce Dinner even? A hike up > Rainier? > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > > > Stas arrives at Sea-Tac on Saturday morning at 11:39 am. Stas needs a > > place to stay and he's interested in seeing the sights or taking in some > > of the natural beauty of the Pacific Northwest. This is where you come in. > > I know some folks got in touch with me a long time ago. That hard drive > > got zapped in an industrial accident. If you're interested in hanging out > > with Stas this weekend or hosting or driving him around, please speak up. > > Please reply to the list! Discuss amongst yourselves. If nobody writes to > > the list about it, it means it's not happening. > > -- > Andrew B. Sweger | P.O. Box 33147 > President | Seattle WA 98133 > Seattle Perl Users Group | (206) 219-7119 > andrew{at}seattleperl.org | http://seattleperl.org/ > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From kmeyer at blarg.net Fri Aug 5 13:20:13 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:20:13 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: <20050804200811.W11441@eris.io.com> Message-ID: Again, please note that this is all education for me. So, how does the misbehaving bot, and the possible responses to it, differ from the ways that any old DoS attack is countered. Since we haven't had any virtual Internet shut-downs recently, it suggests to me that effective measures have been developed. Also again, I don't understand whether a robots.txt file has the same status as password protection in establishing criminal activity. Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: jlb [mailto:jlb at io.com] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 6:24 PM To: Ken Meyer Cc: SPUG Members Subject: Re: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund The methods IRC servers and Mail servers use aren't appropriate for web sites because they introduce significant delay to each and every connection. Even if the information were cached, the initial connection would be slow enough to drive many web users away. Just speaking as someone who has run a website and encountered some of these issues: Frequently "web bots" are very poorly behaved, issuing bursts of thousands of requests in a row, at frequent intervals. This can often impact other legitimate users of the site, as well as potentially costing the site money in bandwidth and hosting. There is a big difference between some person running a recursive wget on your site once to mirror it for their own personal use, and someone frequently and aggressively running screen scraping bots against it in an automated fashion. If a web site has a robots.txt indicating they dont wish to be spidered, and have gone so far as to ban a single misbehaving bot multiple times, only to have those bans evaded...well, at what point does it become "bad?" On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: > My desire to understand this has trumped my desire to conceal my lack of > geeky sophistication. > > Is an "open proxy" used simply to evade an attempt by sites to specifically > block this company's bots and not others? > > What about robots.txt; seems to me that this file implements no more than a > "gentlemen's agreement", rather than a legal barrier, such as a password to > access a computer on a network that is not intended for public access, such > as a web server? > > Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia: > > "Because proxies are implicated in abuse, system administrators have > developed a number of ways to refuse service to open proxies. IRC networks > such as the Blitzed network automatically test client systems for known > types of open proxy. [1] Likewise, a mail server may be configured to > automatically test mail senders for open proxies, using software such as > Michael Tokarev's proxycheck. [2]" > > So why have these techniques not been effective against the subject > "scraping" in point (by the way, I thought that "scraping" referred to > getting text off a screen shot that is in raster format, i.e. OCR, not > actually snarfing the ASCII)? > > So, when is one hacking into a system and when is one simple accessing > material that is exposed and fair game, whether that is desirable or not? > > What sort of material was this company harvesting? Does it bear on privacy, > which is a very tight subject in the case of medical information -- HIPAA > philosophy is highly prevalent. > > Where are Mr. Salzenberg's computers now? Are there contents intact? Who > has control of any files copied from them? > > It is unwise to address this problem via an organization called > "geeksunite", which is certainly off-putting to the majority of the > population, which if they are not actually repelled by the geek image, will > presume that the subject will be beyond their comprehension. If there are > truly illegal acts going on, isn't a counterattack possible? If civil > liberties have been violated, certainly the usual organizations will be > alarmed and will provide support. What about the ACLU and the EFF to defend > Mr. Salzenberg? I would rather support a well-known champion of the > individual than directly to an individual who has not defined the problem or > his approach to addressing it in other than vague terms -- or is the > vagueness simply a product of my lack of understanding of the technical > details of what is going on here. > > By the way, I don't consider this to be "OT" at all, as subjects that bear > on the livelihoods of the computing technical community are subsumed by any > and all more specific technical discussions -- IMHO. > > Ken Meyer From jlb at io.com Fri Aug 5 13:56:29 2005 From: jlb at io.com (jlb) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:56:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050805152559.A84334@eris.io.com> This is probably getting a bit off-topic for this list, feel free to email me directly if you'd like more information, but put simply robots.txt is a way for website operators to state which bots they wish to be able to spider which parts of their site. What it means for robots that ignore the rules laid out in this file is open to interpretation, but most "good netizen" internet providers would probably put a stop to a badly behaved robot if all other options were exhausted. Here's more information on robots.txt http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/robots.html http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/norobots.html You can block the ip the bot comes from, but there are a virtually unlimited number of misconfigured proxies in probably every country in the world. If they're abusing these (which could be illegal in and of itself if the operator of the proxy did not intend it to actually be public) it's not a simple matter to stop. It's not like a huge DDoS that's dropping entire ISPs off the net which backbone providers would be interested in stopping, it's generally quite a bit more isolated of an incident than that. If you wanted to put a stop to a misbehaving bot, and you couldn't track down the people who were running it (or their ISP is not cooperative) you'd probably need to contact individual proxy operators to fix their proxy configurations, which is pointless given the number of proxies available. Your only other option for remedy is likely an expensive and difficult legal process, involving network resources probably located in other countries. An example of a similar situation (although it really was an attack as opposed to a rude bot) is what happened to Kuro5hin.org. I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I believe this was the reason K5 had to completely disable their search feature: someone wrote an abusive bot to make random search requests very rapidly over open proxies. Searches were very expensive under Scoop, and this basically made the site unusable. It can be difficult to track people down behind proxies, and the legal option is obviously more expensive than many website operators can afford. In K5's case, the easiest solution was just to disable the feature the bot was abusing, and in-site search on kuro5hin has been disabled ever since--to the detriment of the legitimate users of the site. Jon On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: > Again, please note that this is all education for me. > > So, how does the misbehaving bot, and the possible responses to it, differ > from the ways that any old DoS attack is countered. Since we haven't had > any virtual Internet shut-downs recently, it suggests to me that effective > measures have been developed. Also again, I don't understand whether a > robots.txt file has the same status as password protection in establishing > criminal activity. > > Ken Meyer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jlb [mailto:jlb at io.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 6:24 PM > To: Ken Meyer > Cc: SPUG Members > > Subject: Re: SPUG: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund > > The methods IRC servers and Mail servers use aren't appropriate for web > sites because they introduce significant delay to each and every > connection. Even if the information were cached, the initial connection > would be slow enough to drive many web users away. > > Just speaking as someone who has run a website and encountered some of > these issues: Frequently "web bots" are very poorly behaved, issuing > bursts of thousands of requests in a row, at frequent intervals. This > can often impact other legitimate users of the site, as well as > potentially costing the site money in bandwidth and hosting. > > There is a big difference between some person running a recursive wget on > your site once to mirror it for their own personal use, and someone > frequently and aggressively running screen scraping bots against it in an > automated fashion. > > If a web site has a robots.txt indicating they dont wish to be spidered, > and have gone so far as to ban a single misbehaving bot multiple times, > only to have those bans evaded...well, at what point does it become "bad?" > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Ken Meyer wrote: > >> My desire to understand this has trumped my desire to conceal my lack of >> geeky sophistication. >> >> Is an "open proxy" used simply to evade an attempt by sites to > specifically >> block this company's bots and not others? >> >> What about robots.txt; seems to me that this file implements no more than > a >> "gentlemen's agreement", rather than a legal barrier, such as a password > to >> access a computer on a network that is not intended for public access, > such >> as a web server? >> >> Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia: >> >> "Because proxies are implicated in abuse, system administrators have >> developed a number of ways to refuse service to open proxies. IRC networks >> such as the Blitzed network automatically test client systems for known >> types of open proxy. [1] Likewise, a mail server may be configured to >> automatically test mail senders for open proxies, using software such as >> Michael Tokarev's proxycheck. [2]" >> >> So why have these techniques not been effective against the subject >> "scraping" in point (by the way, I thought that "scraping" referred to >> getting text off a screen shot that is in raster format, i.e. OCR, not >> actually snarfing the ASCII)? >> >> So, when is one hacking into a system and when is one simple accessing >> material that is exposed and fair game, whether that is desirable or not? >> >> What sort of material was this company harvesting? Does it bear on > privacy, >> which is a very tight subject in the case of medical information -- HIPAA >> philosophy is highly prevalent. >> >> Where are Mr. Salzenberg's computers now? Are there contents intact? Who >> has control of any files copied from them? >> >> It is unwise to address this problem via an organization called >> "geeksunite", which is certainly off-putting to the majority of the >> population, which if they are not actually repelled by the geek image, > will >> presume that the subject will be beyond their comprehension. If there are >> truly illegal acts going on, isn't a counterattack possible? If civil >> liberties have been violated, certainly the usual organizations will be >> alarmed and will provide support. What about the ACLU and the EFF to > defend >> Mr. Salzenberg? I would rather support a well-known champion of the >> individual than directly to an individual who has not defined the problem > or >> his approach to addressing it in other than vague terms -- or is the >> vagueness simply a product of my lack of understanding of the technical >> details of what is going on here. >> >> By the way, I don't consider this to be "OT" at all, as subjects that bear >> on the livelihoods of the computing technical community are subsumed by > any >> and all more specific technical discussions -- IMHO. >> >> Ken Meyer > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From m3047 at inwa.net Fri Aug 5 16:08:18 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:08:18 -0700 Subject: SPUG: bot motel Re: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund Message-ID: I've been just kind of laying off this thread (Ken, you're doing a good job) but maybe it is worth mentioning this page I put up about this whole thing: http://devil.m3047.inwa.net/blogs/bots-are-my-friends.html Or if you prefer: http://devil.m3047.inwa.net/politics/salzenberg-for-president.html Always good for a laugh. But what's funny is the people who look at me funny for doing something like this: for not trusting in robots.txt! Which is, sadly, most of the so-called "community". So I will shamelessly say: if you're out there and you want stuff which is simple and works, and you want to pay for results rather than lip gloss... you can find me, you know how to Google, don't you? ObPerl: Appended. How cool is that?! -- Fred Morris fredm3047 at inwa.net (I-ACK) -- #!/usr/bin/perl -w # =pod =head1 bot-motel.cgi 'Bots check in, but they never check out! This is a 404/403 replacement handler which serves random randomized pages from cache and masks the error so that it looks like a successful hit. =head2 Copyright =over 4 =item Author Fred Morris =item Version 0.1 =item System BotMotel =item Creation Date 25-Feb-2002 =item Modification History =item Copyright Copyright (c) 2003 by Fred Morris, 6739 3rd NW Seattle WA USA 98117 e-mail: m3047 at inwa.net telephone 206.297.6344 Licensed under the same terms as Perl itself. =back =head2 CGI Parameters None. =back =head2 Templates Substitution templates are not used. The script operates in no-parsed-headers (NPH) mode so that it can always return a success code. It serves as content a random page from /opt/bot-motel/cache/*/. =cut use strict; require Apache; # Get something to return to the (ab)user. sub get_file() { my $fnm = sprintf "%d/%d.html", rand( 10 ), rand( 100 ); warn "BotMo: $fnm"; local $/; # Slurp. open F, ") or warn "BotMo read failed: $!", return undef; close F or warn "BotMo close failed: $!", return undef; return $text; } # &get_file # Effectively the main procedure, gives us something to gracefully bail out # of. sub effective_main() { $| = 1; my $r = Apache->request; my $text; my $status; if ($text = get_file()) { $status = 200; } else { $status = 500; $text = "Internal Server Error\n" . " Internal Server Error\n"; } $r->status( $status ); $r->content_type( 'text/html' ); $r->send_http_header(); # Write it out. $r->print( $text ); $| = 0; } # &effective_main effective_main(); 1; From m3047 at inwa.net Sun Aug 7 04:40:32 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 04:40:32 -0700 Subject: SPUG: prototypes Re: bot motel Re: Chip Salzenberg Defense Fund Message-ID: At 9:47 PM 8/6/05, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote: >I know you didn't ask for feedback, but...prototypes? Blech! Eh? No prototypes. Maybe this is an oversight. :-i I actually do use them.. sort of, some of the time. I tend to put the placeholders in the sub foo($;@) declarations, and not bother with the actual prototypes.. they're ignored with method calls in any case. But it does make things a little more self-documenting if you happen to grep through an entire directory of .pm's for some reason. POD sucks, too! :-p From andrew at sweger.net Sun Aug 7 19:50:58 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 19:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: OpenSauce lunch downtown Monday Message-ID: Date Monday, 08 August 2005 Time 12:15 pm Where Rock Bottom Brewery It's at the foot of the Rainier tower. Meet in the bar area between noon and 12:15, get a table at 12:15, gab, eat, enjoy. More details and sign up (if you feel like it) at, http://wiki.seattleperl.org/index.cgi?MonAug08Downtown I think Stas will be there too. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From andrew at sweger.net Mon Aug 8 11:12:32 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Bekman tonight, lunch now Message-ID: Don't forget there's a lunch with Stas Bekman (and several folks from Whitepages.com) at the Rock Bottom downtown at noon. Everyone's welcome to join us. Get there by 12:15, please. Don't forget tonight is Stas' tutorial on practical mod_perl2 at Amazon.com. Details at, http://seattleperl.org/event/20050808_stas_bekman.html There are 17 people who have RSVP'd so far. It's not too late to join us (RSVP if you can, or just show up). This is a great opportunity to learn about leveraging mod_perl2 now and meet your fellow Perl hackers. We start promptly at 6:00 pm. RSVP: rsvp-august-2005-special at seattleperl.org See you there. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From kmeyer at blarg.net Mon Aug 8 16:42:36 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:42:36 -0700 Subject: SPUG: [GSLUG] NO MEETING IN AUGUST Message-ID: GSLUG'ers and Friends (not mutually exclusive?) -- It has been decided that THERE WILL BE NO GSLUG MEETING in August, on our regularly scheduled date of August 13th (or any other day -- I wish that I had the time to go up to NSCC and count the number who show up at the regular venue anyway). Not only is 13 a fabled unlucky number, but we have immanent, serious matters to discuss involved with transitions in the reins of GSLUG's leadership, with some current folks on a short count-down. This is not a subject for a potentially lightly-attended gathering in the summer doldrums, where it is likely that a small minority could make decisions on behalf of the entire group -- or at least that is my view. Note that virtually all of our peer groups are also either not having meetings in August or are substituting a picnic/bar-be-que for the usual formal meeting. So saying, we would enthusiastically invite anyone in the group to organize an informal get-together, either at a private residence or at a park in the area, on the normal Saturday or any other day, for that matter. We are working on a great event for September -- not yet in the bag though -- in addition to the leadership discussion, of course. Ken Meyer for the GSLUG Orgs Crew From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Aug 8 20:14:30 2005 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:14:30 +1000 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle Message-ID: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> G'day everyone, I'm visiting this list in hope to ask you for some advice. My husband and I run a very successful business in Australia (Perl Training Australia) and have not been looking to work for anyone else. Our business allows us great control over what we do, when we do it and how long we spend on it. Our commute to work is generally short and life is great. My husband has just been offered a job (out of the blue) in Seattle which is a loooong way away from Melbourne, Australia. The company is willing to cover costs of moving and would provide health insurance as well. I *presume* that they'd be willing to either provide me a job as well or help me find one. As my expertise is similar to my husband's, that shouldn't be too hard. Any job offer would have to be extremely compelling for us to give up our wonderful business and life-style, but we're open to considering what compelling might be. So... although we currently are thinking that we'd rather not take it, I was hoping for some general advice on what kind of things we should consider? I also have some questions. What are the living costs in Seattle? Is there any public transport? (neither of us drive at the moment). What kind of living options are there? At the moment we have a 3 bedroom house with a big back yard, vegie garden and chooks. Are we likely to find ourselves pent up in a shoebox in Seattle? Is Seattle vegetarian friendly? What are restaurant prices like? What's crime like? We rarely have drive-by shootings in Australia, and when they do occur it's the talk of the news for weeks! In fact, any shooting in Australia is talked about on the news for weeks. I know Seattle isn't New York and I presume New York isn't as bad as Law & Order makes it out to be. But how friendly is Seattle? If we were to go over there we'd be doing programming work for a big, well-known company. I suspect that our current 30 hour weeks would go back to being 60 hours or more. In Australia a lot of jobs are heavily unionised and workplace laws ensure things like minimum holiday leave: 20 days/year etc. What kind of things are granted by law in Seattle? What would you suggest we make sure gets added to our contract? What's a fair wage for a highly skilled Perl programmer, who is obviously good enough to be brought from overseas? I've heard that SPUG is very active, so what socialising options are there for Perl programmers in Seattle? Thankyou for your help. Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From andrew at seattleperl.org Mon Aug 8 21:30:30 2005 From: andrew at seattleperl.org (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Nothing in particular - 16August 2005 Message-ID: August 2005 Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting =================================================== Title: Nothing in particular Speaker: Whoever's mouth isn't full of food Meeting Date: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) Location: TBD (send suggestions) Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public Info: http://seattleperl.org/ =========================================== After having a fantastic four hour tutorial with Stas Bekman this evening (thanks everyone who showed up to take advantage of this), let's make the regular meeting more social. Please suggest someplace fun we can get together to have a bite to eat, enjoy the odd adult beverage, and chat about whatever. Easy access to the major network access points (i.e., I-5, 520, I-90) is desirable. See below for more information on... - RSVP RSVP ==== Please send email to rsvp-august-2005 at seattleperl.org if there's a 50% chance or better that you will show up at the meeting. We need this information so I can reserve a suitable table for us. Wow. I even updated the website! Narly, dude. From jerry.gay at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 07:14:08 2005 From: jerry.gay at gmail.com (jerry gay) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:14:08 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> References: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <1d9a3f4005080907144c17744b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/8/05, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > G'day everyone, > > I'm visiting this list in hope to ask you for some advice. > > My husband and I run a very successful business in Australia (Perl Training > Australia) and have not been looking to work for anyone else. Our business > allows us great control over what we do, when we do it and how long we spend > on it. Our commute to work is generally short and life is great. > > My husband has just been offered a job (out of the blue) in Seattle which is a > loooong way away from Melbourne, Australia. The company is willing to cover > costs of moving and would provide health insurance as well. I *presume* that > they'd be willing to either provide me a job as well or help me find one. As my > expertise is similar to my husband's, that shouldn't be too hard. > congrats to your husband on the job offer. assuming you can get through the border ;) america is a very nice place. > Any job offer would have to be extremely compelling for us to give up our > wonderful business and life-style, but we're open to considering what compelling > might be. > > So... although we currently are thinking that we'd rather not take it, I was > hoping for some general advice on what kind of things we should consider? I > also have some questions. > moving overseas for work (or any reason) is often a difficult desision, and i have gone through this process. five years ago i was working and living in new york, and was offered work in london, so i understand your position. i decided against the move, and quit my job to start my own consulting business. i've never looked back, that's the best business decision i've ever made. > What are the living costs in Seattle? housing is expensive in seattle, but many other things are not. my wife and i moved from philadelphia, where the housing is cheaper, but taxes are much higher. for example, in seattle there is no state, county, or local income tax. there is only sales tax (~9%.) in philadelphia, there is state income tax (~3%), local (1%), and if you live *or work* in philadelphia, there is a 4% income tax. also, there's a 7% sales tax there... so it adds up. here, we're blissfully free of those burdens. > > Is there any public transport? (neither of us drive at the moment). > the transit system is good, but not excellent. there are plenty of commuters in seattle who do not drive. many choose to take a bike--my wife bikes 10k each way to the university where she works. if the weather is terrible or her bike is unavailable, she'll use the buses. > What kind of living options are there? At the moment we have a 3 bedroom house > with a big back yard, vegie garden and chooks. Are we likely to find ourselves > pent up in a shoebox in Seattle? we moved from a 130yr old 4 bedroom farmhouse with 1/3 acre in the suburbs, to a 95yr old 4 bedroom craftsman in the city. we do not have much land, but we do plan to add a veggie garden next year. > > Is Seattle vegetarian friendly? What are restaurant prices like? seattle is extremely vegitarian friendly, as is most of the west coast here. fresh produce is easy to find, and most neighborhoods have farmers markets weekly throughout the spring, summer, and fall. also, there are many, many restaurants with a full range of prices. oh, and if you eat fish (some veggies do, like my sister,) the fish here is *spectacular*. > > What's crime like? We rarely have drive-by shootings in Australia, and when > they do occur it's the talk of the news for weeks! In fact, any shooting in > Australia is talked about on the news for weeks. I know Seattle isn't New York > and I presume New York isn't as bad as Law & Order makes it out to be. But how > friendly is Seattle? > don't worry too much about crime here--seattle isn't an island of criminals or anything :) i come from new york ;) (which isn't as bad as law & order portrays, anyway. the major crime in seattle is car-related (but not drive-bys.) car radios are stolen, cars are stolen for parts, etc. there are shootings in america, and in seattle, but i don't know much about that because i don't watch the news on tv. > If we were to go over there we'd be doing programming work for a big, well-known > company. I suspect that our current 30 hour weeks would go back to being 60 > hours or more. In Australia a lot of jobs are heavily unionised and workplace > laws ensure things like minimum holiday leave: 20 days/year etc. What kind of > things are granted by law in Seattle? What would you suggest we make sure gets > added to our contract? the usual work week here is 40 hours, and if you're a contractor, many places will not pay overtime. as an employee, though, the work culture may demand you sometimes work overtime (usally without pay--this is a question best asked of those at the company under consideration if possible.) most places in the usa offer three weeks vacation (some only offer two,) and there's usually some number of sick days & personal days (two forms of unscheduled vacation.) all total up to somewhere between 20-25 days, depending. vacation time is something that can often be negociated in a contract, however few people attempt it. you're probably in a position to do so, and i suggest you take best advantage, as there are so many wonderful things to see in the pacific northwest, you'll want to spend a lot of time away from work :) > > What's a fair wage for a highly skilled Perl programmer, who is obviously good > enough to be brought from overseas? this is a difficult question to answer without details about the position. if you want to do your own research, the major job sites in the usa are http://monster.com, http://hotjobs.com, http://dice.com, and there's always http://jobs.perl.org > > I've heard that SPUG is very active, so what socialising options are there for > Perl programmers in Seattle? i'm usually up for a pint, and my wife and i often go hiking and exploring. i've found seattle to be a city where it's quite easy to meet new folks and build a circle of friends. my wife and i moved here in march 2005, and we feel well settled. spug has a monthly technical meeting, and occasional other meetings (like a 4hour mod_perl tutorial last night, because stas bekman was in town.) > > Thankyou for your help. you're welcome! i'd be happy to provide more detail on any topic you wish, and i'm sure some other folks here will offer the same. good luck in your decision making process! > > Jacinta > > -- > ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | > `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | > (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | > _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | > (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From dblanchard at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 12:06:15 2005 From: dblanchard at gmail.com (Duane Blanchard) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:06:15 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <1d9a3f4005080907144c17744b@mail.gmail.com> References: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> <1d9a3f4005080907144c17744b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I came to Seattle from southern China (originally from Utah, USA) for graduate school and am coding in Perl at Boeing, which is turning out really well for me. My wife and I love it here and are glad we are able to stay after finishing school. As far as recreation, I mountain bike and kayak (whitewater and ocean), the two of us hike/camp/backpack, enjoy the museums, beautiful drives and eating out with friends. > > My husband and I run a very successful business in Australia (Perl Training > > Australia) and have not been looking to work for anyone else. Our business > > allows us great control over what we do, when we do it and how long we spend > > on it. Our commute to work is generally short and life is great. I think you may be able to continue your training business here, I'm up for Perl training if you come before the end of the year. You may choose to change the name of your company.... There is also the possibility of consulting or contracting while enjoying insurance and other benefits through your husband's work. > > So... although we currently are thinking that we'd rather not take it, I was > > hoping for some general advice on what kind of things we should consider? I > > also have some questions. I expect you'll have a lot of friends/family visit the couple years, but not as much after that, especially if you see them at their locations. Our families are still in UT, and we only see them there now. > > What are the living costs in Seattle? We rent a very large one-bedroom space in a triplex (three residences in one house, in case Aussies don't have such dwellings) near the University of Washington for USD875/month with W/S/G included. We just ditched our landline and pay USD70/month for two cell lines, cable internet is going to cost us about USD50/month. > > Is there any public transport? (neither of us drive at the moment). I drive to work, but also ride the bus and ride my mountain bike around town for errands. A surprising number of people ride motorcycles year round (it rains a *little* here in the winter). Seattle is very bike-friendly and I am generally impressed with drivers' civility and considerateness. I suggest you check out Google Earth for the general lay of the land (and water); be sure to get down the relative positions of I(nterstate)-5, I-90, I-405 and WA(shington highway)-520. For home shopping you should look at housingmaps.com (it maps addresses from craiglist.com, also worth checking out) > > What kind of living options are there? At the moment we have a 3 bedroom house > > with a big back yard, vegie garden and chooks. Are we likely to find ourselves > > pent up in a shoebox in Seattle? Many neighborhoods have "pea patches" where you can lease a small plot for gardening. > > If we were to go over there we'd be doing programming work for a big, well-known > > company. I suspect that our current 30 hour weeks would go back to being 60 > > hours or more. In Australia a lot of jobs are heavily unionised and workplace > > laws ensure things like minimum holiday leave: 20 days/year etc. What kind of > > things are granted by law in Seattle? What would you suggest we make sure gets > > added to our contract? Few tech jobs here are unionized. Boeing has huge unions, but only for labor. Two weeks' vacation is common, but does not include holidays, some of which are paid and some are not. Generally, any federal holiday is paid, and some companies pay a couple others like Thanksgiving day. I've read a lot about negotiating for new jobs and everything indicates that especially if you have been enjoying more vacation than they are offering, you should ask for more. > > Thankyou for your help. Let me know if you have any more questions, or if you would like to know some addresses of friends at any 'big well-known companies' in the area who might be able to answer other questions. Good luck, Duane > > Jacinta > > > > -- > > ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | > > `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | > > (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | > > _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | > > (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > -- Duane Blanchard 206.934.5873 There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who know binary and those who don't. From dblanchard at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 17:13:24 2005 From: dblanchard at gmail.com (Duane Blanchard) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:13:24 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Is a case statement or an if-elsif-else statement faster? Message-ID: I have a series of if statements that should be collapsed into a single case statement or an if-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-else statement. Is one faster than the other? D -- Duane Blanchard 206.934.5873 There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who know binary and those who don't. From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 9 17:42:49 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl Message-ID: I've noticed that when I read legalese (contracts, licenses, etc.), I tend to render them in pseudocode in my head. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to use Perl (or any other programming language) to express a legal document. The ability to use variables and data structures to represent goods, services, entities, and events would give a way to logically codify (heh heh) an agreement. Nevermind the slough of problems with programs that are hard to implement or design documents that under specify the requirements, etc. I think it would be funny (ha ha) to write a contract this way, just for fun I guess. I wonder how a lawyer would respond if presented with one of these. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From brianwisti at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 17:47:33 2005 From: brianwisti at yahoo.com (Brian Wisti) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050810004733.75911.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> And here some people were complaining about Perl poetry. This opens up a whole new can of worms, doesn't it :-) Kind Regards, my $signed = "Brian Wisti" || $aforementioned->party_of() || "something, I don't know legalese"; http://coolnamehere.com/ --- Andrew Sweger wrote: > I've noticed that when I read legalese (contracts, licenses, etc.), I > tend > to render them in pseudocode in my head. I wonder if anyone has ever > tried > to use Perl (or any other programming language) to express a legal > document. The ability to use variables and data structures to > represent > goods, services, entities, and events would give a way to logically > codify > (heh heh) an agreement. Nevermind the slough of problems with > programs > that are hard to implement or design documents that under specify the > requirements, etc. I think it would be funny (ha ha) to write a > contract > this way, just for fun I guess. I wonder how a lawyer would respond > if > presented with one of these. > > -- > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that > several > things can go wrong at once. > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From bill at celestial.com Tue Aug 9 18:00:35 2005 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:00:35 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050810010035.GA46476@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: >I've noticed that when I read legalese (contracts, licenses, etc.), I tend >to render them in pseudocode in my head. I wonder if anyone has ever tried >to use Perl (or any other programming language) to express a legal >document. The ability to use variables and data structures to represent >goods, services, entities, and events would give a way to logically codify >(heh heh) an agreement. Nevermind the slough of problems with programs >that are hard to implement or design documents that under specify the >requirements, etc. I think it would be funny (ha ha) to write a contract >this way, just for fun I guess. I wonder how a lawyer would respond if >presented with one of these. Unless I'm mistaken, boolean algebra was invented largely to decipher the meaning of legal contracts. Of course perl knows what the meaning of ``is'' is. Bill -- INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's so much easier when you have only one party.'' -- Linus Torvalde, Linux Expo Canada when asked about confusion over many Linux distributions. From kmeyer at blarg.net Tue Aug 9 21:22:10 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:22:10 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See comment in [...] below. Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org] On Behalf Of Duane Blanchard Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:06 PM To: jerry gay Cc: spug-list at pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Living in Seattle I came to Seattle from southern China (originally from Utah, USA) for graduate school and am coding in Perl at Boeing, which is turning out really well for me. My wife and I love it here and are glad we are able to stay after finishing school. [SNIP] > > If we were to go over there we'd be doing programming work for a big, well-known > > company. I suspect that our current 30 hour weeks would go back to being 60 > > hours or more. In Australia a lot of jobs are heavily unionised and workplace > > laws ensure things like minimum holiday leave: 20 days/year etc. What kind of > > things are granted by law in Seattle? What would you suggest we make sure gets > > added to our contract? Few tech jobs here are unionized. Boeing has huge unions, but only for labor. Two weeks' vacation is common, but does not include holidays, some of which are paid and some are not. Generally, any federal holiday is paid, and some companies pay a couple others like Thanksgiving day. I've read a lot about negotiating for new jobs and everything indicates that especially if you have been enjoying more vacation than they are offering, you should ask for more. [All of the above, including the original text that is snipped, is IMHO, either factual or a reasonable opinion, except the business about unions at Boeing. In addition to the machinists, the engineers and "technical" employees are well unionized (unless they are included in "labor"). For many years, the engineers were the epitome of wussies, union-wise, believing that hard work would be rewarded and not that they are viewed as a commodity not unlike aluminum. But when the company over-played its hand with "take-backs" during a negotiation occurring midway through the design of the new 737's, the enginears startlingly grew a backbone (I think it especially surprised management). They went on strike for 30+ days, and I have heard it was 80% to 90% strong. Then what had been a local organization joined an affiliate of the AFL-CIO, the major umbrella union in this country, even after a couple of its major units defecting recently. [The effectiveness of any Boeing union, even more than in general, is completely contingent on whether its contract comes up when the aircraft cycle is booming, when the company has a lot of commitments to fill and materials in stock that they want to turn into money, or whether it is during a downturn when everyone is just holding onto their jobs by the skin of their teeth. The company does have a contingent of employees who are not unionized, and it may be that programmers fall into that category. [Boeing's vacation policy is pretty stingy; you probably still start with 10 days and it's awhile until that goes up to 14. But long-timers get more than they can use without people forgetting who they are, and being able to do their jobs adequately, so the total amount is somewhat moot. Boeing gives only the very major holidays "in place", but wads the others together to shut down the plant between Christmas and New Years, which one may or may not favor. I don't think that there is ANY government requirement, either federal or state, that requires any vacation at all; the union contract will cover that -- or you hope that the employment market is hot, so competitive inducements are offered. [If you expect socialistic enforcement of any sort of requirements for benefits, medical, retirement, etc. you'd probably not be really happy with the US, where "socialist" is, in many quarters including the ones that run most things, an epithet expectorated with curled lip. But since you have your own business, you are probably used to working your butts off with no guarantees. There are a lot of laws that govern how the benefits may be administered, if they are offered, but not that they MUST be offered. [Now, many of the "high-tech" companies gave extraordinary perks during the dot-com heyday, free lunch, etc.; but I'm not sure whether these things persist on momentum now following the bust, though they do for some "professional employees" in other corporate environments. At M$, pop and other drinks are still free for the taking. On the other hand, the largesse is often a calculated ploy to keep people around work longer, and M$ is famous for hiring bright young things and burning them out. My son-in-law works there, and he's spent many an night sleeping on the floor of his office as a release date looms -- but he does have an office, and there aren't that many businesses that don't care whether you've finished college or not, so long as you can write DOS batch files (a common interview inquisition approach, I am told).] > > Thank you for your help. Let me know if you have any more questions, or if you would like to know some addresses of friends at any 'big well-known companies' in the area who might be able to answer other questions. Good luck, Duane > > Jacinta > > > > -- > > ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | > > `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | > > (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | > > _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | > > (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From m3047 at inwa.net Wed Aug 10 05:14:02 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:14:02 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle Message-ID: My $0.02US: If you're H1-B, just remember that you can't talk about politics or you will be deported. Your employer may interpret that very liberally, including saying anything negative about them. Basically if you're in the software industry in the US on a work visa, they own you. The government's answer to any workplace abuse is going to be to deport you. They don't investigate anything which isn't safety-related and in a construction or industrial setting even now. I'm willing to move to Australia however... May I ask one really obvious question before I go? Thanks. This is the software industry, right? So why do you need to work full-time in the US, why can't they just bring you over occasionally (or temporarily), and then cut you free to work from wherever you wish? It's just a rhetorical question, but it's worth asking and it's worth seriously pondering the answer you get to see if it has the ring of truth. -- Fred Morris http://www.inwa.net/~m3047/contact.html From from-spug at l2g.to Wed Aug 10 08:23:35 2005 From: from-spug at l2g.to (Larry Gilbert) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30439.206.173.53.62.1123687415.squirrel@webmail.l2g.to> while (@money) { push @lawyer, shift @money; } -- Larry Gilbert Seattle, WA, USA From mike206 at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 08:50:21 2005 From: mike206 at gmail.com (mike) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:50:21 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl In-Reply-To: <20050810010035.GA46476@alexis.mi.celestial.com> References: <20050810010035.GA46476@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: Hasnt 'symbolic logic' existed in philosophy long before any notion of legal contracts? On 8/9/05, Bill Campbell wrote: > Unless I'm mistaken, boolean algebra was invented largely to > decipher the meaning of legal contracts. Of course perl knows > what the meaning of ``is'' is. > > Bill > -- > INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC > UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way > FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 > URL: http://www.celestial.com/ > > ``People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's so much > easier when you have only one party.'' -- Linus Torvalde, Linux Expo Canada > when asked about confusion over many Linux distributions. > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From geekinfo at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 09:11:48 2005 From: geekinfo at gmail.com (Prak B) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:11:48 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point. I am came here on H1 visa, and trust me it's not a joy ride. Being on work visa, if you lose your job, you have to leave the country right away as per law. Though there is a grace period of couple of weeks to get another visa, but that's not enough to get another one. What this means is, you have to leave everything you have, and just pack your bags and go back. This is one aspect you should do some research about before making a decision. You should get your employer to do green card processing for you as soon as you arrive, if you have plans to stay here permanently. Thanks Prak On 8/10/05, Fred Morris wrote: > My $0.02US: > > If you're H1-B, just remember that you can't talk about politics or you > will be deported. Your employer may interpret that very liberally, > including saying anything negative about them. Basically if you're in the > software industry in the US on a work visa, they own you. > > The government's answer to any workplace abuse is going to be to deport > you. They don't investigate anything which isn't safety-related and in a > construction or industrial setting even now. > > > I'm willing to move to Australia however... > > > May I ask one really obvious question before I go? Thanks. This is the > software industry, right? So why do you need to work full-time in the US, > why can't they just bring you over occasionally (or temporarily), and then > cut you free to work from wherever you wish? It's just a rhetorical > question, but it's worth asking and it's worth seriously pondering the > answer you get to see if it has the ring of truth. > > -- > > Fred Morris > http://www.inwa.net/~m3047/contact.html > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From m3047 at inwa.net Wed Aug 10 11:15:38 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: politics, sorry Re: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You see, that sucks (much more than POD and prototypes IMO). While I admit to being somewhat conflicted about the policies on granting of H1B visas to begin with, and on the other hand I don't want to advocate the kind of socio-political dynamics which contributed to the Johnson County cattle wars: I am firmly against slavery and indentured servitude. I am a U.S. citizen, and I believe that if we're going to let people come to this country to work and actively contribute to the society then within the scope of their professional duties and obligations (and provided they weren't hired simply to agitate), narrowly defined, they should have the same rights as U.S. citizens to speak out, criticize the government and their employers, be protected by whistleblower statutes, form, join or participate in unions, and so forth. On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Prak B wrote: > Good point. > I am came here on H1 visa, and trust me it's not a joy ride. > Being on work visa, if you lose your job, you have to leave the > country right away as per law.[...] > > On 8/10/05, Fred Morris wrote: > > My $0.02US: > > > > If you're H1-B, just remember that you can't talk about politics or you > > will be deported. Your employer may interpret that very liberally, > > including saying anything negative about them. Basically if you're in the > > software industry in the US on a work visa, they own you. From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 10 12:12:41 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:12:41 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> References: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 01:14:30PM +1000, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > My husband has just been offered a job (out of the blue) in > Seattle ... > I *presume* that they'd be willing to either provide me a job > as well or help me find one. As my expertise is similar to my > husband's, that shouldn't be too hard. Jacinta, I don't understand why you're so quick to assume that your husband's job offer would necessarily include one for you too, unless that's the way it typically works Down Under. Here in the USA, I'd be /extremely surprised/ if any company would feel a duty to arrange employment for the spouse of a new employee. I'm not saying it's never happened before (for all I know, Linus' wife might have been set up with her own Mercedes dealership in Portland to entice them to relocate there), but it's certainly not the norm here. Regarding your other questions about housing for Aussies moving to Seattle, you should talk to our mutual friend Damian, to whom I once gave the grand tour of Seattle real estate offerings, while he was considering moving here himself. He won't remember many details at this point, but I'm sure he can still recollect his general Antipodean viewpoint on such things as the quality of neighborhoods, and value for the money. FYI, /very few/ Seattle software professionals get gunned down by homicidal maniacs--they mostly kill members of rival gangs, or people with really fancy shoes, jewelry, or cars. Or those whose driving they don't appreciate. So if you were to drive and dress like the rest of us, you'd be safe 8-} Even better than Down Under, very few of us die from unexpected venom injections here! 8-} -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Fall, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://minimalperl.com for details, ordering, and email-list signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From kmeyer at blarg.net Wed Aug 10 12:16:57 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:16:57 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: To SPUGgers. This reply to Jacinta has gotten much longer than I intended, but I post it to the list as well because it does not endorse all of the glowing input that has been made to her already, and those who care might want to be able to take issue with some of my comments. Replying off-line might be viewed as being sneaky. Others can just click the big "X". Ken M. Jacinta -- I don't think that we have enough information to be of really significant help to you. For one thing, no one who has been to Melbourne or any other part of Australia has spoken up with a first-hand comparison -- how about maybe tapping Damian Conway of the Perl world? Also, we're used to the status quo here, and it may well be that things we take for granted would be appalling to you, and maybe vice versa. I am quite sure that you have been thorough with the Google tool, searching on all aspects of life in Seattle, scanning the newspapers online and the restaurant reviews and all that; and that your message to SPUG is just a matter of leaving no stone unturned (oh, look, under that rock -- spuggies!). In any event, everything certainly is relative, isn't it? For instance, Seattle was recently named by Forbes magazine as one of the most overpriced places in the country. Of course, that probably in part reflects their opinion of the desirability of the hinterlands, because the absolute price of housing, as well as its sparse availability, must certainly be worse, in absolute terms, in San Francisco, New York, etc. It also says something about the desirability of living here, which has made this a "seller's market" for about everything. The country, and certainly Seattle, is undergoing a much talked-about "price bubble" for houses, with 15% increases a year claimed for the swanky 'burbs and in-city locations. BUT, though computing employment opportunities are just beginning to recover from the doldrums, the Lexus, BMW, Mercedes dealerships are going gang-busters in the land of Amazon and Microsoft, SUV's with gas tanks the size of swimming pools abound. Restaurants are full. People consistently fill the sports and music events at $40 - $80 and more per seat. So, what really matters is how much you are going to make relative to the cost of living in your accustomed lifestyle -- obviously. I suggest that you compile a budget and play it against what you have been offered. Would you expect any help with relocation expenses? Another factor is what your intent is. Certainly, Australia has an extremely competent technical industry in which to participate -- even in the esoteric world of Perl -- but there must be more routes to advance here, just because of the size of the population. So, is ultimately living in a penthouse high on your list of priorities? Could you see this as a five year adventure, broadening your horizons and giving you yarns to spin to the home folks for the rest of your lives? If you come and go back in due course, might the experience not enhance your perceived value in the Australian market? If you consider this a "once in for all or not at all" move, it's probably worth the investment for at least one of you to come over and scope the scene intimately. Seattle is not at all the place it was when I arrived for the first time in the late 60's, to say the very least. Whether you think that having professional sports teams and freeways is a good deal or not is your choice. In the past, Seattle was considered by most of the country to be a frontier town where it rains incessantly. During one severe downturn in the aircraft business (now on the upswing again) a billboard stating the rhetorical question, "Will the last person leaving Seattle please turn-off the lights" received national notoriety. Homes and such were relatively inexpensive and the place looked a lot like a Boeing "company town" from the outside. Well, events have conspired to change all of that. California got so crowded and expensive that the overflow marched North, bringing the huge proceeds of a California home sale with them, and due to the tax codes, wanting to reinvest them in a home here -- resulting in the initial surge in home values here. Then Windows struck and the name of Microsoft dragged Seattle into the limelight again. As for the rain, it does that from time to time, but there have been nationally televised sports events on days when the weather has been just heavenly, so many folks have now gotten the opposite impression. Whatever, the word is out, so this place is busting at the seams and trying desperately to be "cosmopolitan". Also, the opportunities to live in the sticks and commute rapidly to work are dwindling. So saying, my son-in-law, who is a lead tech at M$, and daughter just bought a pretty nice place with acreage and a horse barn about an hour from here. I think his commute, driving, is about 45 minutes to M$ on a decent day. I doubt that there's an acceptable way for him to go by public transport. Seattle is a city of houses and neighborhoods, with rabid defendants of the single-family dwelling lifestyle, though condos are more and more prevalent as the land squeeze gets worse. In any event, you should be able to find a place to live that won't aggravate your claustrophobia, if any. Check the real estate websites in the area to get an idea. As for the weather, the total rainfall is not that great, and it does not rain really hard very often -- I seldom feel it necessary to wear a raincoat or carry an umbrella. But it does cloud over seemingly interminably for weeks, if not months, at a time, usually in the January/February timeframe, when it also drizzles periodically. That's when the wry jokes about webbed feet return, and the fortunate ones get to run off to Arizona or Hawaii to reconfirm that the sun actually continues to burn hydrogen and that they are not really terminally depressed. Winters are a mixed bag. I think that, here in town, we had no snow at all last winter. Usually, even then, you can get to decent skiing in an hour, but last winter was a bust in the mountains as well, as it rained more than snowed. On other years, we can get some cold snaps down into the 15 degree Fahrenheit range. We can get snow in town, but seldom more than a foot, and that tends not to last for long. With temperatures at those times hovering around freezing, the daily melt-refreeze cycles tend to make streets icy in the mornings, with many concomitant fender-benders occurring. I don't mind the bad weather that much -- good excuse to light-up the fireplace and read a good book, and note that the weather is very local, so at times going inland a few miles and up a couple of hundred feet can make an enormous difference in the conditions. Typically, there are weeks of unremittingly outstanding weather in the summer and/or early fall. We are in that mode right now, though the morning overcast has not burned-off yet today. The hills and water bodies of Seattle create the opportunity for a large number of extraordinarily good living locations. Wonderful views are much more prevalent than in flat, land-locked population centers, though as said, it's getting very pricey in the better places. But the no-free-lunch principle demands a corresponding downside, which is that traffic flow is severely compromised by the impediments of terrain and water, and with the surge in population and two-career families and kids expecting wheels, traffic can be absurd. So, if that is not something you are willing to deal with, as either a driver or passenger, very careful selection of your home location with respect to work is critical. For instance, if you are located such that your commute is counter to the rush-hour traffic, you may find that you breeze along at the effective speed limit (typically about 10 mph above the posted limit), watching the virtual parking lot of cars attempting to travel in the other direction. On the other hand, there are some sites where convergence happens from every possible direction so congestion can't be avoided entirely. There are two bridges across Lake Washington, and either living in town and working at Microsoft, or living in the 'burbs and working in the city, will result equally in some excruciating days of commuting, where one minor accident or break-down can have an enormous effect. Express lanes for buses or multi-passenger cars exist in some places and can make travel more palatable. In fact, kids are often pressed into service just to ride along to make use of the express lanes legal. Public transportation quality and frequency depends again on where you live and where you go. There are bus lines that will whisk you from here to downtown in 10 or 15 minutes, but living elsewhere, it can be a real slog, with transfers required, infrequent service and all that. Also, the public transportation is much better in the spoke directions than in the wheel directions. Service in and out of downtown is pretty good, but across town it's the pits, so getting to somewhere on the same latitude line may require going into downtown and then back out another "spoke". And it seems to me that most trips by public transportation, except for the express commute routes, takes 2 to 3 times what travel by car would under reasonable traffic conditions, though that's good time for an excuse to read. Again, go to the King County Metro site and check-out the bus routes and schedules. A reasonable number of people here have adapted to getting along without a car, but personally, I just can't imagine not being about to go to Costco (big warehouse discount store) and filling the back seat with a month's supply of grocery essentials. In cities such as New York, where a garage may rent for what entire apartments do here, and many folks consequently either don't have a car or stash it out of town for weekend forays, there is an expectation that delivery service will be available for most everything, but that is not yet the norm in Seattle, except for large appliances, etc. -- or if delivery is available, the cost premium can be significant. The surge in population has also made it necessary to make plans far in advance for popular events, whether for attending concerts or reserving a camping spot at a state park. Some folks function that way naturally, but I am more of a spur-of-the-moment guy who likes to keep his options open. But the flip-side to that is that there is so much to do, and it is so close at hand. Educational opportunities are enormous, entertainment abounds, medical care is top-notch, geeky groups such as SPUG are numerous, I can get to huge warehouse discount stores for any sort of product in 5 or 10 minutes, so shopping doesn't have to be planned like a military campaign. When I first came to Seattle, the Friday entertainment section in the newspapers was a single double-page spread. Now, it is an entire tabloid book of its own. There are lots of good restaurants around here, and I think that they cater to any possible taste. You need to look-up the listings on the web if you haven't already, to see what you think relative to your own preferences. It's just that planning and patience are essential commodities. Personally, on balance, I liked the old Seattle much better. And of course, thanks to George W's misadventures, the whole country is in more danger of attack by "religious extremists" now than prior to 9/11 -- you'd better believe that. The ascendancy of self-righteous, sanctimonious religious values asserting themselves on our lives and the increase in corporate dominance abetted by the current federal administration frankly turns my stomach into knots and make me eye a run across the border to the north; but as Australian citizens, you always have an "out" and are not so committed to the direction the country is currently taking. You can just come and enjoy the "low-hanging fruit". Politically, Seattle is a very "liberal" place -- I use quotes because my feeling is that the traditional labels are meaningless today. "Conservative" used to be associated with a philosophy of smaller government and less control of the individual, but that's certainly not the case for the present administration, which is nevertheless categorized as "conservative". Any sort of abomination foisted on the public is coated with allegations of necessity for "national security". Washington is funny politically speaking, because the state is divided, physically and philosophically, by the Cascade mountains. In the mostly rural, agrarian culture to the east, Republicans, a la George Bush, reign, and in the west, most elected folks are Democrats. Usually, the west outvotes the east, to the extent that some east of the mountains lobby for becoming another state (stupid, because they benefit from more tax-funded benefits than they contribute). In any event, you won't find even most Democrats advocating for the type of government interventions that you describe with respect to work conditions in Australia. Violent crime has decreased in the country over the past few years, but there are still nightly reports of shootings, drive-by and otherwise, too close for comfort around here. Pathological behavior is too much in evidence -- several people have been killed or maimed by rocks dropped off freeway overpasses onto their cars. Of course, the likelihood of being shot in a random or mistaken event, or meeting a rock coming through your windshield, is probably less than being struck by lightning or winning the lottery. My house has been broken into several times while I was away, but that's just part of city life, and if you have good insurance, it's an opportunity to get some new stuff. So there is my input, attempting to address your areas of apparent foreboding. The continuing influx of folks to this area is evidence that it is, on balance, an exceptional place to live, at least relatively speaking. >From pictures, I would say the there is a lot of physical resemblance between this area and New Zealand -- but not so much political congruence aside from being a so-called democracy. On the other hand, there is a significant group of folks who become fed-up with urban difficulties and who bail-out for rural areas. In the tech field, many of them can still work via telecommuting, and one executive told me that he had never met one of his gurus face-to-face, so you might ultimately find a way to do that. But those folks trade easy access to so many things for the equanimity of the countryside. So if your ambition is to putz around in your garden, whip up cool code, and be able to say, "We're not taking any projects for the next two weeks", then you probably have it made already. But if you are up for a great adventure and improving your appreciation of a society that is currently the major influence on the direction of the planet, for better or worse, come on over. It's not an irrevocable commitment -- or at least it shouldn't be. Of course, all of the above is just how one person feels the elephant. Ken Meyer who has lived in New York, New Jersey, Texas, and California, as well as Seattle, but is still anticipating a trip to Australia. -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Jacinta Richardson Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 8:15 PM To: spug-list at pm.org Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle G'day everyone, I'm visiting this list in hope to ask you for some advice. My husband and I run a very successful business in Australia (Perl Training Australia) and have not been looking to work for anyone else. Our business allows us great control over what we do, when we do it and how long we spend on it. Our commute to work is generally short and life is great. My husband has just been offered a job (out of the blue) in Seattle which is a loooong way away from Melbourne, Australia. The company is willing to cover costs of moving and would provide health insurance as well. I *presume* that they'd be willing to either provide me a job as well or help me find one. As my expertise is similar to my husband's, that shouldn't be too hard. Any job offer would have to be extremely compelling for us to give up our wonderful business and life-style, but we're open to considering what compelling might be. So... although we currently are thinking that we'd rather not take it, I was hoping for some general advice on what kind of things we should consider? I also have some questions. What are the living costs in Seattle? Is there any public transport? (neither of us drive at the moment). What kind of living options are there? At the moment we have a 3 bedroom house with a big back yard, vegie garden and chooks. Are we likely to find ourselves pent up in a shoebox in Seattle? Is Seattle vegetarian friendly? What are restaurant prices like? What's crime like? We rarely have drive-by shootings in Australia, and when they do occur it's the talk of the news for weeks! In fact, any shooting in Australia is talked about on the news for weeks. I know Seattle isn't New York and I presume New York isn't as bad as Law & Order makes it out to be. But how friendly is Seattle? If we were to go over there we'd be doing programming work for a big, well-known company. I suspect that our current 30 hour weeks would go back to being 60 hours or more. In Australia a lot of jobs are heavily unionised and workplace laws ensure things like minimum holiday leave: 20 days/year etc. What kind of things are granted by law in Seattle? What would you suggest we make sure gets added to our contract? What's a fair wage for a highly skilled Perl programmer, who is obviously good enough to be brought from overseas? I've heard that SPUG is very active, so what socialising options are there for Perl programmers in Seattle? Thankyou for your help. Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From kmeyer at blarg.net Wed Aug 10 12:42:55 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:42:55 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: I disagree with the esteemed Tim Maher only in the degree to which you might receive help in obtaining a job similar to your husband's. Whereas this is not something that one should expect as a matter of course, it has become rather commonplace for employers to help with spousal employment, since so many couples both have careers these days, and this may be the only way to recruit the ones you particularly want from other locations, which would seem to be the case if they are willing to bring you all the way across the Pacific Ocean -- unless your offer is from some head-hunter who just wants to create his own income and doesn't really care whether either of you are more than just marginally qualified for the work at hand or not. What I'm saying is that I don't think you would startle, appall, or "turn-off" any HR people by asking what they would be willing and able to do in this respect. As for murder, yes, most of them occur between individuals who know each other, or who have acted aggressively towards each other, and people in this country seem to rely on weapons to settle disputes disproportionately with most of the rest of the "civilized" world. But the number of rather random fatal events is still significant, if statistically unlikely to occur to any specific individual; and it would be unfair to gloss over that situation if you are ultra-cautious or timid in that respect. For years, I have possessed a concealed weapon carry permit, but have not owned a concealable weapon. I'm currently rethinking that decision, if that gives you any idea. By the way, Law and Order (the original version) episodes are typically loosely based on incidents that have actually occurred somewhere in the country, but not necessarily in New York, to which they are imported for the purposes of the show. That is, New York is not a really unsafe place to live, given baseline prudence in where you go and when you go there. I was born there and have worked there. Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Tim Maher Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:13 PM To: Jacinta Richardson Cc: spug-list at pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Living in Seattle On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 01:14:30PM +1000, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > My husband has just been offered a job (out of the blue) in > Seattle ... > I *presume* that they'd be willing to either provide me a job > as well or help me find one. As my expertise is similar to my > husband's, that shouldn't be too hard. Jacinta, I don't understand why you're so quick to assume that your husband's job offer would necessarily include one for you too, unless that's the way it typically works Down Under. Here in the USA, I'd be /extremely surprised/ if any company would feel a duty to arrange employment for the spouse of a new employee. I'm not saying it's never happened before (for all I know, Linus' wife might have been set up with her own Mercedes dealership in Portland to entice them to relocate there), but it's certainly not the norm here. Regarding your other questions about housing for Aussies moving to Seattle, you should talk to our mutual friend Damian, to whom I once gave the grand tour of Seattle real estate offerings, while he was considering moving here himself. He won't remember many details at this point, but I'm sure he can still recollect his general Antipodean viewpoint on such things as the quality of neighborhoods, and value for the money. FYI, /very few/ Seattle software professionals get gunned down by homicidal maniacs--they mostly kill members of rival gangs, or people with really fancy shoes, jewelry, or cars. Or those whose driving they don't appreciate. So if you were to drive and dress like the rest of us, you'd be safe 8-} Even better than Down Under, very few of us die from unexpected venom injections here! 8-} -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Fall, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://minimalperl.com for details, ordering, and email-list signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From andrew at sweger.net Wed Aug 10 14:21:11 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl In-Reply-To: <30439.206.173.53.62.1123687415.squirrel@webmail.l2g.to> Message-ID: Sorry, this cannot be legally binding. You didn't use strict. :) On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Larry Gilbert wrote: > while (@money) { push @lawyer, shift @money; } -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From atom.powers at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 14:24:50 2005 From: atom.powers at gmail.com (Atom Powers) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:24:50 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl In-Reply-To: References: <20050810010035.GA46476@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: Legal contracts have existed since long before math. Let alone Symbolic Logic. On 8/10/05, mike wrote: > Hasnt 'symbolic logic' existed in philosophy long before any notion of > legal contracts? > > On 8/9/05, Bill Campbell wrote: > > > Unless I'm mistaken, boolean algebra was invented largely to > > decipher the meaning of legal contracts. Of course perl knows > > what the meaning of ``is'' is. > > > > Bill > > -- > > INTERNET: bill at Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC > > UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way > > FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 > > URL: http://www.celestial.com/ > > > > ``People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's so much > > easier when you have only one party.'' -- Linus Torvalde, Linux Expo Canada > > when asked about confusion over many Linux distributions. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > -- -- Perfection is just a word I use occasionally with mustard. --Atom Powers-- From brianwisti at yahoo.com Wed Aug 10 14:26:09 2005 From: brianwisti at yahoo.com (Brian Wisti) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Legal Perl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050810212609.47508.qmail@web53604.mail.yahoo.com> That's okay, we have no money or lawyers, so the consequences are minimal. -- Brian Wisti http://coolnamehere.com/ --- Andrew Sweger wrote: > Sorry, this cannot be legally binding. You didn't use strict. :) > > On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Larry Gilbert wrote: > > > while (@money) { push @lawyer, shift @money; } > > -- > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that > several > things can go wrong at once. > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Wed Aug 10 17:03:38 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:03:38 -0600 Subject: SPUG: Re-install module Message-ID: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFCC@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Gang, I need to re-install a module any one can tell me what is the easy way or painless way to do it? Thanks, Luis From jarich at perltraining.com.au Wed Aug 10 17:13:14 2005 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:13:14 +1000 Subject: SPUG: Many thanks for advice on living in Seattle Message-ID: <42FA981A.3040904@perltraining.com.au> G'day everyone, I have been absolutely swamped with feedback to my questions about living in Seattle (don't let this stop you from sending anything else you're writing though). I apologise for not thanking each of your individually. I've really appreciated the diversity of answers I've received and feel confident that Seattle sounds very much like most other cities, although better situated with respect to outdoor activities. Of course, I haven't lived in a city which is like "most other cities". Melbourne sprawls for 100km in most directions, maybe more in some. But for all that, the CBD is contained in an area of 10 x 10 city blocks. The CBD has 5 train stations pseudo-surrounding it and couldn't fit any more in. Congestion is bad if it delays you for more than 20 minutes on your way to work (including most accidents), this level of congestion is also rare. A few CBD streets are closed to traffic except late at night. There are other business districts out in the suburbs, but nothing bigger than 2 x 5 city blocks. There are only 3 or 4 footpaths in the Melbourne CBD which get and stay sufficiently busy throughout the day, that I can't walk and read from my book at the same time. There are multiple shopping strips, scattered through the suburbs, which also get that busy but not every one, and not all the time. Retail outlets in Melbourne shut down at 5 - 6pm all nights excepting Thursday, Friday and Saturday when they close at 7 or 8pm. Restaurants close their kitchens at 10pm, excepting some which stay open "'til late" on Fridays and Saturdays. On the other hand many supermarkets stay open 24 hours a day. Sydney is more like "most other cities". It also sprawls forever in most directions, but it has a huge CBD wrapped around and across its central bay. It has up to 20 inner city train stops and manages a great deal of traffic. Congestion in Sydney is bad if you're delayed by more than 30 minutes. Delays of an hour or more are very rare even though Sydney also, only has a handful of bridges. Sydney shuts down at 6pm all nights excepting Thursday, and possibly Saturday. Of course some restaurants and cinemas stay open, but the inner city becomes a ghost town amazingly fast unless you know where to look. I haven't lived in Sydney, I've just visited it a lot. We're still considering this job offer, but on the balance of things I don't think Paul will be accepting. We're 4 -7 cushy years away from being able to give up work entirely and retire with a comfortable lifestyle. Assuming things continue as they have, these 4 - 7 years of work will now require only 30 hours a week from us while still giving us 20 - 30 days off each year. We've finally gotten the business to the place we want it, and we're not convinced giving that up would be worthwhile. It is nice to know that Paul is so well known and popular that some certain big companies would be happy to import him all the way from over here. It means that if something terrible happens to our business we might still have a clean evacuation plan. Thanks again for all of your help and particularly all of the urls you gave me. I feel much more confident about the idea of leaving all the known behind and heading off to explore the unknown, even if I might not be doing it this time around. All the best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From jarich at perltraining.com.au Wed Aug 10 17:29:02 2005 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:29:02 +1000 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FA9BCE.8010402@perltraining.com.au> Fred Morris wrote: > My $0.02US: > > If you're H1-B, just remember that you can't talk about politics or you > will be deported. Your employer may interpret that very liberally, > including saying anything negative about them. Basically if you're in the > software industry in the US on a work visa, they own you. Not talking about politics is a very broad condition. Where can I go to find out more about that? I'm not the kind of person who feels it necessary to talk about politics in general conversation, but I could still imagine things like that coming up. > The government's answer to any workplace abuse is going to be to deport > you. They don't investigate anything which isn't safety-related and in a > construction or industrial setting even now. I guess that makes some sense. > May I ask one really obvious question before I go? Thanks. This is the > software industry, right? So why do you need to work full-time in the US, > why can't they just bring you over occasionally (or temporarily), and then > cut you free to work from wherever you wish? It's just a rhetorical > question, but it's worth asking and it's worth seriously pondering the > answer you get to see if it has the ring of truth. I suspect the answer has to do with IP laws. This big company loves its patents. Wants more of them in fact. From what I've gathered working from home or telecommuting will probably be out of the question. I can't say that for sure though as I haven't actually seen any proposed conditions. I'm not a big fan of patents in the software field. Patents on mechanical devices I'm cool with. If someone spends a couple of years designing the perfect do-whatsit and it's the first of its kind then I'm all for them patenting it, because it's really easy for the competition to see what it does, pull one apart even, and then make their own. Of course if two separate companies come up with a sufficiently similar thing independantly, then that makes it interesting. Software patents bother both of us, which is another thing Paul and I have to think about carefully. All the best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From jarich at perltraining.com.au Wed Aug 10 17:51:29 2005 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:51:29 +1000 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <42FAA111.6000109@perltraining.com.au> Tim Maher wrote: > On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 01:14:30PM +1000, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > >>My husband has just been offered a job (out of the blue) in >>Seattle ... > > > >>I *presume* that they'd be willing to either provide me a job >>as well or help me find one. As my expertise is similar to my >>husband's, that shouldn't be too hard. > > > Jacinta, > > I don't understand why you're so quick to assume that your > husband's job offer would necessarily include one for you too, > unless that's the way it typically works Down Under. > > Here in the USA, I'd be /extremely surprised/ if any company > would feel a duty to arrange employment for the spouse of a new > employee. I'm not saying it's never happened before (for all I > know, Linus' wife might have been set up with her own Mercedes > dealership in Portland to entice them to relocate there), but > it's certainly not the norm here. It's easy for me to presume this, even while knowing this may be an unusual practice. They want my husband enough to pay for him to travel over from Australia. They don't believe in losing top talent due to monetary issues. He's plain and simply not going to work for them if I don't come to the US with him. I'm not going to the US to spend the next few years job hunting. I'm also not going to the US to work at a job that doesn't utilise my skills and pay me appropriately. So either they'd help me find work or they wouldn't get him. If they want him as much as they say they do, then I think they'd find it in them to help me out. We can take this approach because we really don't care if they reject our proposal. Our current situation is perfect. So they've got to provide a very compelling offer for us to accept theirs. On the other hand, I've known many people who've moved overseas for a job and whose spouse was also been provided a job. Some of these have been moving to Australia and others from Australia. I've even known people who've moved interstate (inside Australia) and who have had this happen for them. Maybe the USA is special in this regard... > Even better than Down Under, very few of us die from unexpected > venom injections here! 8-} Well there is that... although having seen many snakes and spiders, close up, in the wild, I'm doing fine. ;) J -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 10 18:06:02 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:06:02 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <42FAA111.6000109@perltraining.com.au> References: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <42FAA111.6000109@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <20050811010602.GA6057@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 10:51:29AM +1000, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > > It's easy for me to presume this, even while knowing this may > be an unusual practice. > They don't believe in losing top talent > due to monetary issues. He's plain and simply not going to work > for them if I don't come to the US with him. > So either they'd help me find work or they wouldn't get him. Well, it sounds like you're in a good position to request a "package deal" of employment for you both, which is an enviable situation to be in. Best wishes, whatever you decide to do! -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Fall, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://minimalperl.com for details, ordering, and email-list signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Wed Aug 10 18:22:56 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:22:56 -0600 Subject: SPUG: loading a module Message-ID: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD0@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Gang, I have this problem I install the module Net::Blogger but perl has some problem loading this particular module. I have this script: #!/usr/bin/perl use Net::Blogger; when I ran it I have this error: Can't locate Net/Blogger.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.4/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.3/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.2/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.1/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.4 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.3 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.2 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.1 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.4/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.3/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.2/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.1/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.4 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.3 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.2 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.1 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl .) at x.pl line 2. BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at x.pl line 2. Anybody can help me to debug what can we wrong with this or how can make perl to load this module? Thanks, Luis From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 10 18:49:57 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:49:57 -0700 Subject: SPUG: loading a module In-Reply-To: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD0@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> References: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD0@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Message-ID: <20050811014957.GA6326@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Wed, Aug 10, 2005 at 07:22:56PM -0600, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > Gang, > > I have this problem I install the module Net::Blogger but perl has some problem loading this particular module. I have this script: > > #!/usr/bin/perl > use Net::Blogger; > > when I ran it I have this error: It seems most likely that you don't have the module on your system. To fix that problem, somebody (perhaps your SA, or you) needs to run a command like this one (showing a Unix example): shell$ perl -M'CPAN' -e shell ... then when you get the prompt: cpan> install Net::Blogger If you end up doing this as a non-privileged user, you'll also need to set the PERL5LIB variable to point to the installation directory, as in: shell$ export PERL5LIB="$PERL5LIB:$HOME/my_modules" Hope that helps, *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Fall, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://minimalperl.com for details, ordering, and email-list signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Wed Aug 10 18:59:23 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:59:23 -0600 Subject: SPUG: loading a module Message-ID: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD1@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Ryan, I installed the module using perl -M'CPAN' -e shell option. I didn't "make install". what other options do I have? Thanks, Luis ________________________________ From: Ryan Allen [mailto:ryan at the-summit.net] Sent: Wed 8/10/2005 7:46 PM To: Medrano-Zaldivar, L E Subject: Re: SPUG: loading a module your module never made it to one of those directories listed there. Did you run "make install"? -R * Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote on [08-10-05y 18:30]: > Gang, > > I have this problem I install the module Net::Blogger but perl has some problem loading this particular module. I have this script: > > #!/usr/bin/perl > use Net::Blogger; > > when I ran it I have this error: > > Can't locate Net/Blogger.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.4/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.3/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.2/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.1/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.4 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.3 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.2 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.1 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.4/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.3/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.2/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.1/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-th > read-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.4 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.3 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.2 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.1 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl .) at x.pl line 2. > BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at x.pl line 2. > > Anybody can help me to debug what can we wrong with this or how can make perl to load this module? > > Thanks, > Luis > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > -- +-----------------------------+ | ryan at the-summit.net | | http://www.the-summit.net | +-----------------------------+ From jarich at perltraining.com.au Wed Aug 10 19:04:30 2005 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:04:30 +1000 Subject: SPUG: Is a case statement or an if-elsif-else statement faster? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FAB22E.5060304@perltraining.com.au> Duane Blanchard wrote: > I have a series of if statements that should be collapsed into a > single case statement or an > if-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-elsif-else statement. Is > one faster than the other? Intuitively I'd suggest that if, elsif, elsif ... is faster than using Switch.pm's case. Unless things have changed dramatically (possible, I haven't paid attention to Switch.pm recently) Switch is a source filter, changing your case statement into a set of if, elsif ... else statements during compilation. Having said that, clarity of code and maintainability should be more important than the very little speed up you'll get by avoiding Switch.pm. Well written switch code is much easier, for me, to read than a cascade of if/elsif/else statements. Unless you're putting a lot of code in the then blocks. J -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From sthoenna at efn.org Wed Aug 10 19:09:54 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:09:54 -0700 Subject: SPUG: loading a module In-Reply-To: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD1@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> References: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD1@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Message-ID: <20050811020953.GA3664@efn.org> On Wed, Aug 10, 2005 at 07:59:23PM -0600, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > Ryan, > > I installed the module using perl -M'CPAN' -e shell option. I didn't "make install". what other options do I have? Using the install command in the CPAN shell should have done make install for you, unless something went wrong. Can you show the output from: perl -MCPAN -e'install "Net::Blogger"' ? From jarich at perltraining.com.au Wed Aug 10 19:10:08 2005 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:10:08 +1000 Subject: SPUG: loading a module In-Reply-To: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD1@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> References: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD1@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Message-ID: <42FAB380.5050207@perltraining.com.au> Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > Ryan, > > I installed the module using perl -M'CPAN' -e shell option. I didn't "make > install". what other options do I have? Find out where the module has been put. If it appears to be in one of the directories included in @INC (listed in your original email) see whether the actual module got put there or if you've got an empty directory. If it's been put somewhere else, perhaps you didn't have permissions to write to the system directories, then add that directory to @INC at runtime. This can be done via: #!/usr/bin/perl -I/path/to/my/perl/directories or #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; # etc use lib "/path/to/my/perl/directories/"; use Net::Blogger; or on the command line: perl -I/path/to/my/perl/directories some_blogging_prog.pl All the best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Wed Aug 10 19:19:46 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:19:46 -0600 Subject: SPUG: loading a module Message-ID: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD2@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Yitzchak, Here is the output of perl -MCPAN -e'install "Net::Blogger"': perl -MCPAN -e'install "Net::Blogger"' CPAN: Storable loaded ok Going to read /root/.cpan/Metadata Database was generated on Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:59:44 GMT Running install for module Net::Blogger Running make for A/AS/ASCOPE/Net-Blogger-0.87.tar.gz CPAN: Digest::MD5 loaded ok CPAN: Compress::Zlib loaded ok Checksum for /root/.cpan/sources/authors/id/A/AS/ASCOPE/Net-Blogger-0.87.tar.gz ok Scanning cache /root/.cpan/build for sizes Net-Blogger-0.87/ Net-Blogger-0.87/t/ Net-Blogger-0.87/t/00-basic.t Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Base.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Radio.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Slash/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Slash/slashcode.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Userland/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Userland/metaWeblog.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Manila.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Movabletype.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Blogger.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Movabletype/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Movabletype/mt.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Userland.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Slash.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/API/ Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/API/Core.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/API/Extended.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger.pm Net-Blogger-0.87/Changes Net-Blogger-0.87/MANIFEST Net-Blogger-0.87/TODO Net-Blogger-0.87/META.yml Net-Blogger-0.87/Makefile.PL Removing previously used /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87 CPAN.pm: Going to build A/AS/ASCOPE/Net-Blogger-0.87.tar.gz Checking if your kit is complete... Looks good Writing Makefile for Net::Blogger cp lib/Net/Blogger/API/Extended.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/API/Extended.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Movabletype.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Movabletype.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Base.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Base.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Blogger.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Blogger.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Movabletype/mt.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Movabletype/mt.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/API/Core.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/API/Core.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Radio.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Radio.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Userland.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Userland.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Slash.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Slash.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Slash/slashcode.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Slash/slashcode.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Userland/metaWeblog.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Userland/metaWeblog.pm cp lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Manila.pm blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Manila.pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Movabletype.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::API::Extended.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Blogger.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Base.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Movabletype::mt.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Radio.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::API::Core.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Userland.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Slash.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Slash::slashcode.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Userland::metaWeblog.3pm Manifying blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Manila.3pm /usr/bin/make -- OK Running make test PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /usr/bin/perl "-MExtUtils::Command::MM" "-e" "test_harness(0, 'blib/lib', 'blib/arch')" t/*.t t/00-basic....ok 3/6# # Enable debugging output? [y/n] n # debugging is disabled t/00-basic....ok 4/6# # URI of a working Blogger API server ? http://plant.blogger.com/api/RPC2 # # Username ? ******* # # Please enter password: # # # App key (optional) ? 1 # # Blog name ? myblog # Failed test (t/00-basic.t at line 27) # # Please enter some text ? t/00-basic....NOK 5wasup # # Publish this text? [y/n] y Use of uninitialized value in substitution (s///) at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/SOAP/Lite.pm line 375, line 8. Use of uninitialized value in substitution (s///) at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/SOAP/Lite.pm line 375, line 8. Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at t/00-basic.t line 36, line 8. # New post failed, the Blogger API server reported the following error: # # Failed test (t/00-basic.t at line 40) # Looks like you failed 2 tests of 6. t/00-basic....dubious Test returned status 2 (wstat 512, 0x200) DIED. FAILED tests 5-6 Failed 2/6 tests, 66.67% okay Failed Test Stat Wstat Total Fail Failed List of Failed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- t/00-basic.t 2 512 6 2 33.33% 5-6 Failed 1/1 test scripts, 0.00% okay. 2/6 subtests failed, 66.67% okay. make: *** [test_dynamic] Error 2 /usr/bin/make test -- NOT OK Running make install make test had returned bad status, won't install without force ________________________________ From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes [mailto:sthoenna at efn.org] Sent: Wed 8/10/2005 8:09 PM To: Medrano-Zaldivar, L E Cc: Ryan Allen; spug-list at pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: loading a module On Wed, Aug 10, 2005 at 07:59:23PM -0600, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > Ryan, > > I installed the module using perl -M'CPAN' -e shell option. I didn't "make install". what other options do I have? Using the install command in the CPAN shell should have done make install for you, unless something went wrong. Can you show the output from: perl -MCPAN -e'install "Net::Blogger"' ? From LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com Wed Aug 10 19:26:08 2005 From: LMedrano-Zaldivar at ciber.com (Medrano-Zaldivar, L E) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:26:08 -0600 Subject: SPUG: loading a module Message-ID: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD4@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Ryan, I ran this find / -name "*Blogger*", and this is what I found: /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87 /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger.pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Blogger.pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Blogger.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Movabletype::mt.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Slash.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::API::Extended.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Manila.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Base.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Userland.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Movabletype.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::API::Core.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Slash::slashcode.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Userland::metaWeblog.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/man3/Net::Blogger::Engine::Radio.3pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/arch/auto/Net/Blogger /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/lib/auto/Net/Blogger /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/lib/Net/Blogger.pm /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/lib/Net/Blogger /root/.cpan/build/Net-Blogger-0.87/blib/lib/Net/Blogger/Engine/Blogger.pm /root/.cpan/sources/authors/id/A/AS/ASCOPE/Net-Blogger-0.87.tar.gz My question is what directory should I move? Thanks, Luis ________________________________ From: Ryan Allen [mailto:ryan at the-summit.net] Sent: Wed 8/10/2005 8:16 PM To: Medrano-Zaldivar, L E Subject: Re: SPUG: loading a module Do a: find / -name "*Blogger*" it might take a while, depending how many filesystmes you have mounted. If the system finds your module, then you need to make sure your PERL5LIB points to the directory the module lives in: export PERL5LIB="$PERL5LIB:/my_module_directory" -Ryan * Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote on [08-10-05y 19:10]: > Ryan, > > I installed the module using perl -M'CPAN' -e shell option. I didn't "make install". what other options do I have? > > Thanks, > Luis > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ryan Allen [mailto:ryan at the-summit.net] > Sent: Wed 8/10/2005 7:46 PM > To: Medrano-Zaldivar, L E > Subject: Re: SPUG: loading a module > > > > your module never made it to one of those directories listed there. > Did you run "make install"? > > -R > > > * Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote on [08-10-05y 18:30]: > > Gang, > > > > I have this problem I install the module Net::Blogger but perl has some problem loading this particular module. I have this script: > > > > #!/usr/bin/perl > > use Net::Blogger; > > > > when I ran it I have this error: > > > > Can't locate Net/Blogger.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.4/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.3/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.2/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.1/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.4 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.3 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.2 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.1 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.4/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.3/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.2/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.1/i386-linux-thread-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-th > > read-multi /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.5 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.4 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.3 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.2 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.1 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0 /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl .) at x.pl line 2. > > BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at x.pl line 2. > > > > Anybody can help me to debug what can we wrong with this or how can make perl to load this module? > > > > Thanks, > > Luis > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > > > > -- > > +-----------------------------+ > | ryan at the-summit.net | > | http://www.the-summit.net | > +-----------------------------+ > > > -- +-----------------------------+ | ryan at the-summit.net | | http://www.the-summit.net | +-----------------------------+ From sthoenna at efn.org Wed Aug 10 20:51:05 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:51:05 -0700 Subject: SPUG: loading a module In-Reply-To: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD2@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> References: <8FFDEE1FC17DFB4BAF050331C185449F40FFD2@srv-corp-exmb4.ciber.cbr.inc> Message-ID: <20050811035104.GA1656@efn.org> On Wed, Aug 10, 2005 at 08:19:46PM -0600, Medrano-Zaldivar, L E wrote: > Yitzchak, > > Here is the output of perl -MCPAN -e'install "Net::Blogger"': > > perl -MCPAN -e'install "Net::Blogger"' ... > Failed Test Stat Wstat Total Fail Failed List of Failed > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > t/00-basic.t 2 512 6 2 33.33% 5-6 > Failed 1/1 test scripts, 0.00% okay. 2/6 subtests failed, 66.67% okay. > make: *** [test_dynamic] Error 2 > /usr/bin/make test -- NOT OK > Running make install > make test had returned bad status, won't install without force It failed some tests; you can install it anyway by using: force install Net::Blogger at the cpan shell prompt. From kmeyer at blarg.net Thu Aug 11 10:59:47 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:59:47 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle Message-ID: I might have appeared a little condescending in my observation about the relative number of professional opportunities to be found in the USA vs. Australia. So here is my comeuppance, delivered publicly a day or two later by a local newspaper: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/236027_jobs.html Ken Meyer PS I finally did what I should have done before answering at all -- nice web site. ---------------------------------------- Australia outpaces us in new jobs TODD CROWELL GUEST COLUMNIST Seattle Post-Intelligencer August 11, 2005 The Bush administration is touting the latest jobs figures as a sign that the economy is moving swimmingly. We are supposed to be impressed that U.S. employers added about 207,000 new jobs in July. But is this figure really impressive? Compared with what, June's anemic 146,000? Which brings me to Australia. The economies of Australia and the United States are remarkably similar. The unemployment rate at 5 percent is identical. Both economics are growing at a comparably respectable clip. Conservative politicians dedicated to free-market principles are in power in both places. The only difference is that the U.S. population of 295 million is about 15 times larger than Australia's 20 million. In June, the Australian economy created 41,700 new jobs. Taking into account population differences, this is roughly equivalent to the U.S. economy creating 625,000 jobs. In other words, Australia created four times as many new jobs on a per-capita basis that month. [ETC] From MichaelRWolf at att.net Thu Aug 11 13:36:41 2005 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:36:41 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: > Regarding your other questions about housing for Aussies moving > to Seattle, you should talk to our mutual friend Damian, to whom > I once gave the grand tour of Seattle real estate offerings, > while he was considering moving here himself. He won't remember > many details at this point, but I'm sure he can still recollect > his general Antipodean viewpoint on such things as the quality > of neighborhoods, and value for the money. The actual antipode to Melbourne is a bit southwest from here (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37+48'36.31+n+144+57'36.35w&ll=38.754083,-144 .975586&spn=27.368650,61.620117&hl=en), but Seattle is (amazingly enough) about as antipodal as you could get...... P.S. The drive's a bit difficult, too (http://maps.google.com/maps?spn=150.616976,492.960938&t=k&saddr=37+48'36.31 +s+144+57'36.35e&daddr=%2B37%C2%B0+48'+36.31%22,+-144%C2%B0+57'+36.35%22+(37 .810086,+-144.960097)&hl=en) -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf at att.net From cpw at catenoid.com Thu Aug 11 14:37:58 2005 From: cpw at catenoid.com (Chris Whip) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:37:58 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <20050811203653.81F6E177C6@x6.develooper.com> References: <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <20050811203653.81F6E177C6@x6.develooper.com> Message-ID: <20050811213758.GA14379@cascadia.drizzle.com> On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 01:36:41PM -0700, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > > Regarding your other questions about housing for Aussies moving > > to Seattle, you should talk to our mutual friend Damian, to whom > > I once gave the grand tour of Seattle real estate offerings, > > while he was considering moving here himself. He won't remember > > many details at this point, but I'm sure he can still recollect > > his general Antipodean viewpoint on such things as the quality > > of neighborhoods, and value for the money. > > > The actual antipode to Melbourne is a bit southwest from here > (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37+48'36.31+n+144+57'36.35w&ll=38.754083,-144 > .975586&spn=27.368650,61.620117&hl=en), but Seattle is (amazingly enough) > about as antipodal as you could get...... Actually, it's not. The antipode to Melbourne is in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean, midway between Portugal and New Jersey. 144 degrees east is only 70 degrees away from 144 degrees west. -- Chris From brianwisti at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 15:16:42 2005 From: brianwisti at yahoo.com (Brian Wisti) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <20050811213758.GA14379@cascadia.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <20050811221643.71427.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Whip wrote: > On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 01:36:41PM -0700, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > > > Regarding your other questions about housing for Aussies moving > > > to Seattle, you should talk to our mutual friend Damian, to whom > > > I once gave the grand tour of Seattle real estate offerings, > > > while he was considering moving here himself. He won't remember > > > many details at this point, but I'm sure he can still recollect > > > his general Antipodean viewpoint on such things as the quality > > > of neighborhoods, and value for the money. > > > > > > The actual antipode to Melbourne is a bit southwest from here > > > (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37+48'36.31+n+144+57'36.35w&ll=38.754083,-144 > > .975586&spn=27.368650,61.620117&hl=en), but Seattle is (amazingly > enough) > > about as antipodal as you could get...... > > Actually, it's not. The antipode to Melbourne is in the middle of the > North > Atlantic Ocean, midway between Portugal and New Jersey. > > 144 degrees east is only 70 degrees away from 144 degrees west. > > -- Chris http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.6S+122.33E&spn=43.233141,81.158203&hl=en Looks like our actual antipode is somewhere very cold and wet, between Australia and Antarctica. Are you sure we can't have Melbourne instead? Kind Regards, Brian Wisti http://coolnamehere.com From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Aug 12 12:11:35 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:11:35 -0700 Subject: SPUG: How do I determine when a module became "core"? Message-ID: <20050812191135.GA20633@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> I installed a a command on my Linux box that tells me the number of the Perl version when a specified module first became included in the standard distribution. But I can't remember its name! I thought it was something like "*core*", or "*module*", but those ideas don't lead me to it. Can somebody help? I promise to make a memorable alias to the command, if I ever find it again 8-{ -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (and Yeshe Sherpa) HOME: Seattle, WA USA | | 21ft MOTORHOME: Chinook Premier BOAT: Zodiac inflatable | | NAVIGATION AID: Sherpa wife EMAIL: Tim at TimMaher.org | *------------------------------------------------------------* From christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com Fri Aug 12 12:25:15 2005 From: christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com (Cantrall, Christopher W) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:25:15 -0700 Subject: SPUG: How do I determine when a module became "core"? Message-ID: <2D5554EEA97F6B45BA9A8623D985BAAA01076DF1@XCH-NW-1V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> I think I was reading about something like that last night in Perl Medic. Somewhere in chapters 9-12. It might have just been identifying versions of modules, however. I do know that the book has a listing of core modules & when they were made core. HTH. ________________________________ Chris Cantrall 425-717-6117 737-900ER Escape Door Analysis -----Original Message----- From: Tim Maher [mailto:tim at consultix-inc.com] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:12 PM To: spug-list at pm.org Subject: SPUG: How do I determine when a module became "core"? I installed a a command on my Linux box that tells me the number of the Perl version when a specified module first became included in the standard distribution. But I can't remember its name! I thought it was something like "*core*", or "*module*", but those ideas don't lead me to it. Can somebody help? I promise to make a memorable alias to the command, if I ever find it again 8-{ -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (and Yeshe Sherpa) HOME: Seattle, WA USA | | 21ft MOTORHOME: Chinook Premier BOAT: Zodiac inflatable | | NAVIGATION AID: Sherpa wife EMAIL: Tim at TimMaher.org | *------------------------------------------------------------* _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list at pm.org SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Aug 12 14:00:43 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:00:43 -0700 Subject: SPUG: How do I determine when a module became "core"? In-Reply-To: <2D5554EEA97F6B45BA9A8623D985BAAA01076DF1@XCH-NW-1V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <2D5554EEA97F6B45BA9A8623D985BAAA01076DF1@XCH-NW-1V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <20050812210043.GA1733@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 12:25:15PM -0700, Cantrall, Christopher W wrote: > I think I was reading about something like that last night in Perl > Medic. Somewhere in chapters 9-12. It might have just been identifying > versions of modules, however. > > I do know that the book has a listing of core modules & when they were > made core. > > HTH. > > ________________________________ > Chris Cantrall 425-717-6117 Bingo! As shown on p. 162, the script is called "corelist", which for some reason I can never remember. I think I'll alias it to "when_did_a_perl_module_become_core" to make life easier next time I need it! ============================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. tim(AT)TeachMePerl.com | | SPUG Leader Emeritus spug(AT)TeachMePerl.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group http://www.SeattlePerl.com | | SPUG Wiki Site http://Spugwiki.Perlocity.org | ============================================================== From schuh at farmdale.com Fri Aug 12 14:07:37 2005 From: schuh at farmdale.com (Mike Schuh) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: How do I determine when a module became "core"? In-Reply-To: <20050812210043.GA1733@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Tim Maher wrote: >On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 12:25:15PM -0700, Cantrall, Christopher W wrote: >> I think I was reading about something like that last night in Perl >> Medic... >> >> I do know that the book has a listing of core modules & when they were >> made core. > >Bingo! As shown on p. 162, the script is called "corelist", which for >some reason I can never remember. I think I'll alias it to >"when_did_a_perl_module_become_core" to make life easier next time I need >it! Or: find `perl -e 'map { $_, print "$_ "} @INC'` -type f | xargs grep -i "some clever string that will lead you to core modules" TIMTOWTDI -- Mike Schuh -- Seattle, Washington USA http://www.farmdale.com From julesa at pcf.com Fri Aug 12 16:38:58 2005 From: julesa at pcf.com (Jules Agee) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:38:58 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <42F81F96.6030806@perltraining.com.au> <20050810191241.GA4159@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <42FD3312.30606@pcf.com> Tim Maher wrote: > FYI, /very few/ Seattle software professionals get gunned down > by homicidal maniacs--they mostly kill members of rival gangs Don't mind Tim. There are really very few serious altercations between gangs of Seattle software professionals. /ducks -Jules From brianwisti at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 17:29:38 2005 From: brianwisti at yahoo.com (Brian Wisti) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Living in Seattle In-Reply-To: <42FD3312.30606@pcf.com> Message-ID: <20050813002939.809.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Agee wrote: > Tim Maher wrote: > > > FYI, /very few/ Seattle software professionals get gunned down > > by homicidal maniacs--they mostly kill members of rival gangs > > Don't mind Tim. There are really very few serious altercations > between > gangs of Seattle software professionals. > > /ducks > -Jules And really, not many of us are in the sort of shape where any altercation can last long enough to get truly serious.\ -- Brian Wisti http://coolnamehere.com/ From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Fri Aug 12 20:29:23 2005 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:29:23 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Frame Grab from AVI Message-ID: Folks, I'm trying to find a way to grab the first frame from an AVI using a perl module for a photo album project I'm working on. Any one have any suggestions? Thanks, Peter Darley From andrew at sweger.net Sat Aug 13 13:15:04 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Nothing in particular - 16 August 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No. Really. But it'll be kinda short notice if we actually come up with anything. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > After having a fantastic four hour tutorial with Stas Bekman this evening > (thanks everyone who showed up to take advantage of this), let's make the > regular meeting more social. Please suggest someplace fun we can get > together to have a bite to eat, enjoy the odd adult beverage, and chat > about whatever. Easy access to the major network access points (i.e., I-5, > 520, I-90) is desirable. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From tim at consultix-inc.com Sat Aug 13 17:16:22 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:16:22 -0700 Subject: SPUG: getpwent bug in find2perl Message-ID: <20050814001622.GA12125@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> SPUGsters, Consider this situation: unix$ find2perl . -ls > find_ls.pl # Using latest File::Find v1.09 C> find_ls.pl The getpwent function is unimplemented at -e line 1. I understand that getpwent() is a native Unix library function, and that Windoze doesn't even have the passwd-file entries alluded to by the PW/ent part of the name, but I don't understand why find2perl blithely composes a script that depends on this function, when find2perl itself is principally used to let Windoze people pretend to have a find command. Anybody have any fixes for this (e.g,. use POSIX_something), or other insights? -Tim *------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher (and Yeshe Sherpa) HOME: Seattle, WA USA | | 21ft MOTORHOME: Chinook Premier BOAT: Zodiac inflatable | | NAVIGATION AID: Sherpa wife EMAIL: Tim at TimMaher.org | *------------------------------------------------------------* From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Sat Aug 13 19:33:26 2005 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:33:26 -0700 Subject: SPUG: getpwent bug in find2perl Message-ID: > Consider this situation: > unix$ find2perl . -ls > find_ls.pl # Using latest File::Find v1.09 > > C> find_ls.pl > The getpwent function is unimplemented at -e line 1. > I understand that getpwent() is a native Unix library function, and that Windoze doesn't even have the passwd-file > entries alluded to by the PW/ent part of the name, but I don't understand why find2perl blithely composes a script > that depends on this function, when find2perl itself is principally used to let Windoze people pretend to have a find > command. > Anybody have any fixes for this (e.g,. use POSIX_something), or other insights? Were you hoping to get an emulation of 'ls -l' or would a simple 'ls' suffice: perl -MFile::Find -le "find sub{print},'.'" # Win32 -- Charles DeRykus From tim at consultix-inc.com Sat Aug 13 20:16:24 2005 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:16:24 -0700 Subject: SPUG: getpwent bug in find2perl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050814031624.GA13271@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 07:33:26PM -0700, DeRykus, Charles E wrote: > > > Consider this situation: > > > unix$ find2perl . -ls > find_ls.pl # Using latest File::Find v1.09 > > > > > > C> find_ls.pl > > The getpwent function is unimplemented at -e line 1. > > > > I understand that getpwent() is a native Unix library > > function, and that Windoze doesn't even have the passwd-file > > entries alluded to by the PW/ent part of the name, but I > > don't understand why find2perl blithely composes a script > > that depends on this function, when find2perl itself is > > principally used to let Windoze people pretend to have a find > > command (AFAIK). > > Anybody have any fixes for this (e.g,. use POSIX_something), or other > > insights? > > Were you hoping to get an emulation of 'ls -l' or would a simple 'ls' > suffice: > > perl -MFile::Find -le "find sub{print},'.'" # Win32 > > Charles DeRykus Wow! That command's pretty inscrutable, but I get it. Actually, I really don't have any pressing need to do file listings of /any/ kind on Windoze, but in my book I'm discussing the use of find2perl by Unix users to compose scripts for Jr. SAs to run on Windoze, and I was just surprised to find that one of the most common uses of find, "find . -ls", doesn't even run successfully on Windoze. Don't you think it should? If not, then maybe we need a portability option to find2perl, to make sure it disallows the use of "-ls" with that option, or else implements it portably. -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, PhD (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my Fall, 2005 book: "Minimal Perl for UNIX/Linux People" | | See http://minimalperl.com for details, ordering, and email-list signup | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Sat Aug 13 20:56:39 2005 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:56:39 -0700 Subject: SPUG: getpwent bug in find2perl Message-ID: >... > perl -MFile::Find -le "find sub{print},'.'" # Win32 > >> Actually, I really don't have any pressing need to do file listings of /any/ kind on Windoze, but in my book I'm >> discussing the use of find2perl by Unix users to compose scripts for Jr. SAs to run on Windoze, and I was just >> surprised to find that one of the most common uses of find, "find . -ls", doesn't even run successfully on Windoze. >> Don't you think it should? If not, then maybe we need a portability option to find2perl, to make sure it disallows the >> use of "-ls" with that option, or else implements it portably. A portable find2perl sounds like a great idea. Even if the Resource Kit or Cygwin already has 'find', find2perl is more versatile. I wonder how hard it'd be to implement on the Mac or one of the more exotic OS's. -- Charles DeRykus From uril at exchange.microsoft.com Sun Aug 14 13:30:47 2005 From: uril at exchange.microsoft.com (Uri London) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:30:47 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application Message-ID: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B58320319838E@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> I'm curious if there is a list somewhere of real world or even better "brand name" applications written in Perl? Looking around I can find many c# (*.aspx pages) and whatever form of Java (*.jsp, *.jhtml), but I don't see many *.pl sites. Does need to be front end web application. If someone know for sure some back-end application written in Perl I would be interested to know as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050814/4ba43da8/attachment.html From m3047 at inwa.net Sun Aug 14 13:43:17 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:43:17 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application Message-ID: I suggest .balls as an extension, waddaya think babyo? It works in the 'bot motel: http://devil.m3047.inwa.net/world-class-application.balls At 1:30 PM 8/14/05, Uri London wrote: >Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; > boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A10E.B4ED48B5" >X-PerlJacket: multipart/alternative|parallel rewrite. > >[...] > >**PerlJacket** deleted text/html part. > >_____________________________________________________________ >Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org >SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ From andrew at sweger.net Sun Aug 14 15:27:37 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: list filter html In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This list supports filtering of non-text attachments. Does anyone have strong *objections* to enabling this feature? (It will permit the text portion of alternatives through and possibly attempt to convert any final HTML to text.) -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Sun Aug 14 15:37:57 2005 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:37:57 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B58320319838E@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Uri, My company is built around a real-world perl application. It's a 60 thousand line data collection/management/presentation tool called Insight which we use for market research. It's not really publicly available, but if you were interested I could create a login for you for the FocalPoint demo, our data presentation tool. Also, I'm curious why you're looking for examples? Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Uri London Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 1:31 PM To: spug-list at pm.org Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application I'm curious if there is a list somewhere of real world or even better "brand name" applications written in Perl? Looking around I can find many c# (*.aspx pages) and whatever form of Java (*.jsp, *.jhtml), but I don't see many *.pl sites. Does need to be front end web application. If someone know for sure some back-end application written in Perl I would be interested to know as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050814/4ee90f1e/attachment.html From jarich at perltraining.com.au Sun Aug 14 16:47:03 2005 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:47:03 +1000 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B58320319838E@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B58320319838E@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <42FFD7F7.5010104@perltraining.com.au> Uri London wrote: > I?m curious if there is a list somewhere of real world or even better > ?brand name? applications written in Perl? I don't know if there's a list but: * Most of Amazon's site is written in Perl (HTML::Mason to be exact) * Bricolage (which is written in HTML::Mason) is used to create: * The Register * The World Health Organisation's pages * some others (go search) * Qantas Australia uses Perl to run their ticket booking system including reading tickets at the gates. * HPA (Australia) uses Perl to compile files for printing You can find out more about Mason powered sites in particular at: http://www.masonhq.com/?MasonPoweredSites We have a list of some companies using Perl on our website, but not what they're doing with it. http://perltraining.com.au/whyperl.html Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From m3047 at inwa.net Sun Aug 14 18:42:47 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:42:47 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application Message-ID: At 9:47 AM 8/15/05, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > [...] > http://www.masonhq.com/?MasonPoweredSites ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I had second thoughts and was going to write a followup and explain how after Bill Gates invented the internet for Al Gore and Newt Gingrich, the whole Apache thing happened as a reaction (witness the failed attempt to have ".html" files as well as the proper ".htm"); and nowadays, the hold-out Perl programmers have resorted to naming their Perl CGIs ".aspx" so they can be conformant with the world-class standards. But, and I'm sorry to say, I fear you have hopelessly confused the gentleman with this very peculiar example. Do they use Bleach on this site? From sthoenna at efn.org Mon Aug 15 03:13:27 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 03:13:27 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050815101326.GB2744@efn.org> On Sun, Aug 14, 2005 at 06:42:47PM -0700, Fred Morris wrote: > At 9:47 AM 8/15/05, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > > [...] > > http://www.masonhq.com/?MasonPoweredSites > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I had second thoughts and was going to write a followup and explain how > after Bill Gates invented the internet for Al Gore and Newt Gingrich, the > whole Apache thing happened as a reaction (witness the failed attempt to > have ".html" files as well as the proper ".htm"); and nowadays, the > hold-out Perl programmers have resorted to naming their Perl CGIs ".aspx" > so they can be conformant with the world-class standards. > > But, and I'm sorry to say, I fear you have hopelessly confused the > gentleman with this very peculiar example. Do they use Bleach on this site? You are looking for the extension that's not there in the wrong place; it's not there between the / and ?, along with the filename, presumably "index." From m3047 at inwa.net Mon Aug 15 05:05:20 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:05:20 -0700 Subject: SPUG: COTS Re: Real world "brand name" Perl application Message-ID: I don't work for Microsoft, so all of what follows is personal conjecture. So I am going to speak as though I actually know what Microsoft is doing, but of course I have no special insider knowledge. When I allude to specific documents or practices, my general reference is the State of Washington's IT practices. Notwithstanding his fixation on file extensions, Uri is asking about COTS software. No doubt his employer is conducting an on-going or periodic competitive review/assessment, and he simply wants your help. Uri at Microsoft wrote: >I'm curious if there is a list somewhere of real world or even better >"brand name" applications written in Perl? COTS means "Common Off The Shelf. It does not mean tools (such as .NET) or web servers (such as IIS) or platforms (such as Windows), because Microsoft has no competitive differentiation advantage there. Although Microsoft does develop some COTS packages, many more, especially vertical applications, are developed by developer/partners and marketed by solutions providers (these should be understood in the channel context). Microsoft in turn markets to these channels and utilizes their branding and collateral display of marks through a strategy of certification and partnering. So the focus of the competitive review is likely two-fold: 1) to identify markets where others are competing with its channel, and 2) to identify opportunities for its channel partners to exploit. Governments and LBEs desperately want to buy things "in a box". Although you can google for "COTS risks", nonetheless COTS is usually designated as low risk by these organizations. In its customer-facing marketing strategy Microsoft reinforces this perception and also seeks to maintain the definition of COTS as being narrowly applicable to end-user, customer-facing applications. In this case, these would be web-enabled applications. Uri again: >Does need to be front end web application. If someone know for sure some >back-end application written in Perl I would be interested to know as >well. I could go on from here, but if I did this would end up being 3-10 times longer than it is before I completed the next circle. Probably the next thing to discuss would be current trends in enterprise architecture frameworks: de-emphasizing technology standards and increasing the emphasis on business process and data standards... hence the focus on COTS applications which embody business rules and data standards (many of which are mandated or driven upstream by legislation, regulation, or global business practices). HTH... -- Fred Morris, Fred Morris Consulting http://www.inwa.net/~m3047/contact.html From sthoenna at efn.org Mon Aug 15 05:30:56 2005 From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:30:56 -0700 Subject: SPUG: COTS Re: Real world "brand name" Perl application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050815123056.GA1680@efn.org> On Mon, Aug 15, 2005 at 05:05:20AM -0700, Fred Morris wrote: > Although Microsoft does develop some COTS packages, many more, especially > vertical applications, are developed by developer/partners and marketed by > solutions providers (these should be understood in the channel context). > Microsoft in turn markets to these channels and utilizes their branding and > collateral display of marks through a strategy of certification and > partnering. I read that last word as "pandering" at first. From m3047 at inwa.net Mon Aug 15 05:47:28 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:47:28 -0700 Subject: SPUG: COTS Re: Real world "brand name" Perl application Message-ID: Thanks for catching that, my mistake. At 5:30 AM 8/15/05, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote: >On Mon, Aug 15, 2005 at 05:05:20AM -0700, Fred Morris wrote: >>[...] Microsoft in turn markets to these channels and utilizes their >>branding and >> collateral display of marks through a strategy of certification and >> partnering. > >I read that last word as "pandering" at first. From jay at scherrer.com Mon Aug 15 07:43:04 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:43:04 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application In-Reply-To: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B58320319838E@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <51A650DE17480640A3E64A4D412B58320319838E@df-chewy-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <1124116984.3102.9.camel@gimly.scherco.local> Uri, On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 13:30 -0700, Uri London wrote: > I?m curious if there is a list somewhere of real world or even better > ?brand name? applications written in Perl? > What is ? > > > Looking around I can find many c# (*.aspx pages) and whatever form of > Java (*.jsp, *.jhtml), but I don?t see many *.pl sites. > What would mod_perl name it's files? > > > Does need to be front end web application. If someone know for sure > some back-end application written in Perl I would be interested to > know as well. > > What is slash code? > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ A new game in town Jeperldy. From davidinnes at chicagoscience.com Mon Aug 15 10:22:14 2005 From: davidinnes at chicagoscience.com (David Innes (CSG)) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:22:14 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application In-Reply-To: <20050815101326.GB2744@efn.org> Message-ID: <200508151030409.SM01656@float> "The hold-out Perl programmers have resorted to naming their Perl CGIs '.aspx" so they can be conformant with the world-class standards." Hmm. Almost all my perl-based web pages have .asp extensions (though admittedly not .aspx.) I wouldn't call it "resorting to" though. PerlISAPI executes more efficiently than CGI, and ASP pages with embedded PerlScript is way easier to author than other embedded scripting languages like CGI::Mason or (since I know and prefer Perl) PHP. CGI scripts aren't exactly crippled, of course. MovableType blog engine is an extremely popular brand-name Perl CGI application that -- like all competently written Perl applications -- runs well on multiple platforms. --- Brief editorial rant: Rather than grouse about imagined encroachments Al Gore and Bill Gates might make on Perl web-programming opportunities it might be more productive to direct our bile towards PHP which seems to be kicking our butts. I can understand the appeal of PHP -- for a small compromise in programming beauty, efficiency, and flexibility you get a seamlessly embed-able scripting language in a format that designers and other non-programmers can whale away in with standard web-authoring tools like DreamWeaver and InDesign. (Aside: Vim nicely parses and code-colors ASP/Perl.) Whatever you might think of Microsoft and the IIS/ASP platform, worse things could happen to you than being stuck with ASP/Perl... for instance being stuck with PHP instead. -- David Innes From KBuff at zetron.com Mon Aug 15 13:58:23 2005 From: KBuff at zetron.com (Kurt Buff) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:58:23 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application Message-ID: <054222519C2ED411A68E00508B603AC70A3D0804@zetxch01.zetron.com> Hrm... How about SpamAssassin and Amavisd-new? Those are written in perl, and do a damn fine job of keeping our mail secure. -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces at pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Uri London Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 13:31 To: spug-list at pm.org Subject: SPUG: Real world "brand name" Perl application I'm curious if there is a list somewhere of real world or even better "brand name" applications written in Perl? Looking around I can find many c# (*.aspx pages) and whatever form of Java (*.jsp, *.jhtml), but I don't see many *.pl sites. Does need to be front end web application. If someone know for sure some back-end application written in Perl I would be interested to know as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20050815/1604ec96/attachment.html From cos at indeterminate.net Tue Aug 16 06:38:16 2005 From: cos at indeterminate.net (John Costello) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: list filter html In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > This list supports filtering of non-text attachments. Does anyone have > strong *objections* to enabling this feature? > > (It will permit the text portion of alternatives through and possibly > attempt to convert any final HTML to text.) Is that why some of the messages are showing all their HTML, or is that just my reader? I dislike receiving attachments, period, on lists, and especially dislike non-text attachments (which have been naughty worms--though not on this list). > -- > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several > things can go wrong at once. ----- John Costello - cos at indeterminate dot net From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 16 08:12:41 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: list filter html In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, John Costello wrote: > Is that why some of the messages are showing all their HTML, or is that > just my reader? Attachment filtering and conversion is not enabled, yet. What you're seeing may be the result of a broken sending MUA or (the logical or) a misunderstanding receiving MUA. I haven't looked at it in detail other than to grumble at the spewage of MSHTML (I see it too). Since there have been zero objections to my proposal, I will start enabling the filters. In the past, any time I mess with the list's configuration, invariably Something Bad[tm] will happen. I'll make a separate announcement(s) about the changes. MUA = mail user agent (your email software, e.g., Pine) > I dislike receiving attachments, period, on lists, and especially dislike > non-text attachments (which have been naughty worms--though not on this > list). I feel the same way. But there are some attachments that make sense, like PGP signatures. The fellas that run the mail server for Perl Mongers have quite a bit of spam and virus filtering in place. Plus, any message sent to the list from a non-subscriber is simply rejected. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From cos at indeterminate.net Tue Aug 16 09:58:44 2005 From: cos at indeterminate.net (John Costello) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: list filter html In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, John Costello wrote: > > Is that why some of the messages are showing all their HTML, or is that > > just my reader? > > Attachment filtering and conversion is not enabled, yet. What you're > seeing may be the result of a broken sending MUA or (the logical or) a > misunderstanding receiving MUA. I haven't looked at it in detail other > than to grumble at the spewage of MSHTML (I see it too). Ah, ok. > Since there have been zero objections to my proposal, I will start > enabling the filters. In the past, any time I mess with the list's > configuration, invariably Something Bad[tm] will happen. I'll make a > separate announcement(s) about the changes. > > MUA = mail user agent (your email software, e.g., Pine) Yep--I administered a mail server long enough that I should know that acronym. It'll be a sad day when I forget my mail knowledge. :^) > > I dislike receiving attachments, period, on lists, and especially dislike > > non-text attachments (which have been naughty worms--though not on this > > list). > > I feel the same way. But there are some attachments that make sense, like > PGP signatures. Good point. I had thought only of executables and the like, or the occasional image. Does PGP come through as binary (I'm guessing yes, but don't remember). > The fellas that run the mail server for Perl Mongers have quite a bit of > spam and virus filtering in place. Plus, any message sent to the list from > a non-subscriber is simply rejected. Ah, that's good to know. > -- > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several > things can go wrong at once. John ----- John Costello - cos at indeterminate dot net From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 16 10:39:27 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: list filter html In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, John Costello wrote: > It'll be a sad day when I forget my mail knowledge. :^) I've gotten prescription meds to try erasing that knowledge. It didn't help. The RFC's just keep coming back. > Good point. I had thought only of executables and the like, or the > occasional image. Does PGP come through as binary (I'm guessing yes, but > don't remember). There's a couple varieties. There are ASCII armored signatures inline with the text attachment and detached binary signatures as a separate attachment (which end up being base64 encoded). I don't know yet what the filter will do with these, but I'm guessing it can handle these cases. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From phil at scharp.org Tue Aug 16 10:43:25 2005 From: phil at scharp.org (Phil Kirsch) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:43:25 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Astro::Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430225BD.4030101@scharp.org> I've installed Astro::Time, but I'm having trouble finding documentation. Does anyone have suggestions as to where I could find usage information? Phil Kirsch Statistical Center for HIV/AIDS Research and Prevention From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 16 10:47:31 2005 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Astro::Time In-Reply-To: <430225BD.4030101@scharp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Phil Kirsch wrote: > I've installed Astro::Time, but I'm having trouble finding > documentation. Does anyone have suggestions as to where I could find > usage information? http://search.cpan.org/dist/Astro/ -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From tcaine at cac.washington.edu Tue Aug 16 10:47:30 2005 From: tcaine at cac.washington.edu (tcaine@cac.washington.edu) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: Astro::Time In-Reply-To: <430225BD.4030101@scharp.org> References: <430225BD.4030101@scharp.org> Message-ID: You should be able to "perldoc Astro::Time". If not, you can view the modules documentation at http://search.cpan.org/~cphil/Astro-0.64/Astro/Time.pm and it might be helpful to look at the test script to see examples of it's use, http://search.cpan.org/src/CPHIL/Astro-0.64/test.pl. On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Phil Kirsch wrote: > I've installed Astro::Time, but I'm having trouble finding > documentation. Does anyone have suggestions as to where I could find > usage information? > > Phil Kirsch > Statistical Center for HIV/AIDS Research and Prevention > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list at pm.org > SUBSCRIPTION: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location: Amazon.com Pac-Med > WEB PAGE: http://seattleperl.org/ > From cos at indeterminate.net Tue Aug 16 11:20:31 2005 From: cos at indeterminate.net (John Costello) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: list filter html In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Andrew Sweger wrote: > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, John Costello wrote: > > > It'll be a sad day when I forget my mail knowledge. :^) > > I've gotten prescription meds to try erasing that knowledge. It didn't > help. The RFC's just keep coming back. Ha! I'm starting to think that I'm a little odd for liking sendmail. ----- John Costello - cos at indeterminate dot net "Free as in Kool-Aid." From m3047 at inwa.net Thu Aug 18 21:14:35 2005 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:14:35 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Uri never even said thank you was: COTS... Message-ID: ... and I thought I did a pretty good job fleshing out his request. Anyway, hope the latest storm of "automatic Windows updates" hasn't left y'all offline.. (I suppose this is a "list ping", since things seem rather quiet.) -- Fred Morris From jobs-noreply at seattleperl.org Sat Aug 20 16:11:43 2005 From: jobs-noreply at seattleperl.org (SPUG Jobs) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPUG: JOB: Perl/TCL test scripts - Bellevue, Contract Message-ID: o required skill-set - Perl & TCL - actually, heavier emphasis on TCL larger systems rather than small helper scripts code & related documentation for users - Automated test development experience particularly interfacing with various test equipment. - Knowledge of networking - 802.11, IP networking, etc.... - Cell phone and RF technology a plus. o Contract - possibly leading to permanent o 1-2 months, pay depends on specific experience & abilities o Large company - usual benefits o Direct hire with company o 1099 preferably, corporations okay o Bellevue, WA o Limited telecommuting opportunities o Communications company Contact Joel Williams From MichaelRWolf at att.net Mon Aug 29 19:38:39 2005 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:38:39 -0700 Subject: SPUG: Onion address Message-ID: Anyone have a link to this year's State of the Onion? -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf at att.net