From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Aug 2 21:36:48 2004 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:48 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Now you are on Ryan Way, a twisty road that goes uphill for a bit. Ryan ends at a T, with a flashing red light. Right onto 51st AVE S. Go about the equivalent of four blocks. Left onto Bangor St. You can only go left on Bangor, and it slightly hard to see, so watch out for it. Right onto 57 AVE S. This is a dead end st. I'm second up from the bottom, on the right hand side. White picket fence, blue siding. You can park in front of my house, or at the end of the street. Please don't block my neighbor's driveway. If you plan on attending, send me (not the list) a note, so I can get an approximate head count. See you there. -Colin. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Aug 2 21:36:48 2004 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:50 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/demoroniser/ From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Aug 2 21:36:48 2004 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:50 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: http://www.winfield.demon.nl/index.html You could download one or both and look at the source code if the tool wasn't an exact fit to your problem. jim From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Aug 2 21:36:48 2004 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:52 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: found it much easier and faster to write my own routines. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Aug 2 21:36:48 2004 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:53 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: --- \{n,m\} \{n,\} \{n\} Matches the single character regular expression or subexpression immediately preceding it at least n and at most m times. If m is omitted, then it matches at least n times. If the comma is also omitted, then it matches exactly n times. --- n is the typical metasyntactic variable for indicating some arbitrary number. It makes sense to use it here. Then, 'at most m times'. Thus, think most, think m. Or it could just be that m is right to the right of n on a qwerty keyboard... -- Shawn Wagner shawnw@speakeasy.org From wildwood_players at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 11:57:31 2004 From: wildwood_players at yahoo.com (Richard Wood) Date: Tue Aug 3 11:57:37 2004 Subject: SPUG: Regex multi-line question Message-ID: <20040803165731.54814.qmail@web11507.mail.yahoo.com> SPUGsters, I am always impressed at the demonstrations of regex's that are shown at SPUG. I have been trying to figure out a one liner that will parse out multiple sets of patterns from an xml file. I can do it easily enough with a while<> loop (or a parser) but I figure there is a more obfuscated solution that one of you can propose using one line. I am looking for a result something like: Record, /home/woody/vinyl/Migration, JB_Migration.tar CD, /home/woody/cd/Migration, JB_Migration.tar TAPE, /home/woody/cass/Migration, JB_Migration.tar >From the following file. Don't ask/recommend that I use a parser, that isn't the objective. Think of it as more a perl golf question. MUSIC /home/woody/vinyl/Migration JB_Migration.tar MUSIC /home/woody/cd/Migration JB_Migration.tar MUSIC /home/woody/cass/Migration JB_Migration.tar Thanks, Rich Wood ===== Richard O. Wood Wildwood IT Consultants, Inc. wildwood_players@yahoo.com 425.281.1914 mobile 206.544.9885 desk __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kenslinux at shaw.ca Tue Aug 3 12:34:17 2004 From: kenslinux at shaw.ca (Ken Clarke) Date: Tue Aug 3 12:44:45 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Regex multi-line question References: <20040803165731.54814.qmail@web11507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003701c47980$1a428b80$37476d18@kens> This'll get ya started. Just treat it as a single line. @results = $XML =~ m|type="([^"]+)" .*? ([^<]+) .*? ([^<]+) |sgx; while (@results) { @extract = splice(@results, 0, 3); print join(', ', @extract) . "\n"; } You are much better off using a parser however since this approach has no tolerance for eg single quoted type='' in which case the media record would be skipped, or missing in which case record 1 will grab record 2's path etc... >> Ken Clarke >> Contract Web Programmer / E-commerce Technologist >> www.PerlProgrammer.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Wood" To: "Seattle Perl Users Group" Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:57 AM Subject: SPUG: Regex multi-line question > SPUGsters, > > I am always impressed at the demonstrations of regex's > that are shown at SPUG. > > I have been trying to figure out a one liner that will > parse out multiple sets of patterns from an xml file. > > I can do it easily enough with a while<> loop (or a > parser) but I figure there is a more obfuscated > solution that one of you can propose using one line. > > I am looking for a result something like: > > Record, /home/woody/vinyl/Migration, JB_Migration.tar > CD, /home/woody/cd/Migration, JB_Migration.tar > TAPE, /home/woody/cass/Migration, JB_Migration.tar > > >From the following file. > > Don't ask/recommend that I use a parser, that isn't > the objective. Think of it as more a perl golf > question. > > > > > MUSIC > /home/woody/vinyl/Migration > JB_Migration.tar > > > MUSIC > /home/woody/cd/Migration > JB_Migration.tar > > > MUSIC > /home/woody/cass/Migration > JB_Migration.tar > > > > Thanks, > > Rich Wood > > ===== > Richard O. Wood > Wildwood IT Consultants, Inc. > wildwood_players@yahoo.com > 425.281.1914 mobile > 206.544.9885 desk > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From jgardner at jonathangardner.net Tue Aug 3 12:44:58 2004 From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan Gardner) Date: Tue Aug 3 12:45:10 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium Message-ID: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Many of use are perl consultants. We spend a great deal of time finding clients and we just don't have the resources to prepare spiels or case studies or advertising in the proper media. So we end up mostly as parasites because we can't generate new projects and clients and we only clean up where others have gone before. (I am speaking generally, of course.) We see this because the current perl market is contracting, not expanding. I have a proposal that many of you won't like and frankly, I don't think it will work in its current working form. I'd like some input and ideas positive or negative. If we could get it working, I think it will be a huge benefit to all of us. Some of the ideas I don't endorse, I am only putting them on the floor for discussion because they have some merit. Basically, we form a corporation called the Seattle Perl Consortium (SPC). We have members who are perl consultants. They pay membership fees. We buy advertising and we have a team of marketers and salespeople to convince the PHBs that perl is the way to go with glossy handouts and snazzy powerpoint presentations. The SPC acts like the marketing department for our small consultancies. With enough members and a big enough budget, we should be able to challenge anything Microsoft or Sun would do to market their stuff. SPC could provide legal assistance, accounting assistance, business advice, and misc. services. The idea is to move everything but perl work off of the consultants into the SPC where people who specialize in that sort of thing can do it properly and for far less than you would do it yourselves. (Going rate for an accountant << going rate for experienced perl consultant). SPC could provide on-call 24/7 service with a call center and on-call consultants. SPC may be able to fund its own projects. For instance, if there is a need for a specific piece of software, but no company is willing to fund it, but it would be useful to all of the members of SPC, SPC may hire some of the consultants to implement the project. To smooth the market cycles, SPC may collect a hoard of cash that it will use to employ the consultants during difficult times. Rather than compete with the clients, SPC would wait to do its projects until the slow cycles. SPC may also be a standards body, codifying best practices and technology to make the work its members do consistent and unified. SPC could provide services you'd find in a guild or a union. We could set prices, establish accreditation, and help apprentices pair off with gurus. SPC will be basically non-profit. All the profit from the actual work goes into the pockets of the consultants, with perhaps a small cut to go back to the SPC to fund more of its activities. In the future, if this is successful, we can expand this into the Seattle Open Source / Free Software Consortium, or maybe even a world-wide organization with chapters in every major city. -- Jonathan Gardner jgardner@jonathangardner.net From matt at rearviewmirror.org Tue Aug 3 14:04:21 2004 From: matt at rearviewmirror.org (Matt Beland) Date: Tue Aug 3 14:01:06 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Message-ID: <4450.63.175.179.226.1091559861.squirrel@63.175.179.226> Jonathan Gardner said: > I have a proposal that many of you won't like and frankly, I don't think > it will work in its current working form. I'd like some input and ideas > positive or negative. If we could get it working, I think it will be a > huge benefit to all of us. I don't know how much room I have to speak on this; I am a consultant, but Perl is a tool for the work I do, not the main focus of my consultancy. I suspect that is true of many of the "Perl Consultants" on this list, and so joining an organization focused on Perl wouldn't be very cost-effective. But frankly, this sounds like it has all the disadvantages of working for someone else with none of the advantages of being independent. I'm particularly uncomfortable with the idea of a "union"; as a technical consultant, I sell my services based on my skills and abilities, not a negotiated pay schedule based on seniority and dues paid. Unionized labor is a solution to the powerlessness of workers who are interchangable; that's not a problem we face. Look at the "success" of the engineering union over at Boeing; I know a number of engineers who nearly quit in disgust when the whole thing started, and since then have either left for other companies or are cynically amused at the problems the union is facing. Yes, there are advantages to collaboration, but they're best limited to specific areas and actions. For example, it's an excellent idea to pool certain common resources; shared office space, vendor-neutral advertising (e.g. the advantages of Perl in business, supporting local business through local consultancies, etc), buyer's cooperatives for services, even things like office supplies and printing services. However, sharing of vendor-specific marketing, group proposals, etc. gets into areas of job allocation, hierarchies of consultants, and all sorts of cures that are worse than the disease. OK, the Perl consulting market is contracting. Is that because there aren't enough big Perl groups bidding for the available jobs? No, it's because there are fewer Perl jobs available. So, then, the best solutions are to increase the number of Perl jobs or decrease the number of Perl consultants. The first is something an organization can do; see below. The second is something an organization could only do by such measures as "certification" of "legitimate" consultants (a moment while I clear the nasty taste from my mouth) or forcing independents out of business. Meanwhile, as individuals, some will physically move to other areas, some will change their business to adjust to the changes in demand, others will fail. The organization as a whole may survive, but as individuals, the options are exactly the same within the organization as without, except that inside the organization we could have compensation adjustments and performance reviews and cake. Though, if it's *good* cake, it might be worth it. > In the future, if this is successful, we can expand this into the Seattle > Open Source / Free Software Consortium, or maybe even a world-wide > organization with chapters in every major city. Maybe. Would that be a good thing? GSLUG started to create a Washington Linux Council last year; the effort didn't fail, exactly, so much as it fizzled out for lack of resources. Something like that could be very effective; it's modeled after the advocacy groups who do so much advertising ("Behold the power of cheese", etc.) They don't advertise specific organizations; they increase market awareness of widgets and their capabilities, and it's up to the individual widget-makers to turn that increased visibility and interest into sales. Here, such a collaboration could market the capabilities of Perl in business, the advantages over other popular programming languages, and in general just get non-technical business people thinking of Perl (and Perl consultants) as people who can get things done for them. When we as a whole have business people (a.k.a. "clients") thinking about Perl as a possibility, individual advertising dollars will be much more effective for our own consultancies. With less money spent, because we won't be paying as much for accountants and offices and cake. -- Matt Beland matt@rearviewmirror.org http://www.rearviewmirror.org From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Aug 3 15:05:45 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Tue Aug 3 15:07:14 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Message-ID: <20040803200545.GA17195@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 10:44:58AM -0700, Jonathan Gardner wrote: > > I have a proposal ... > we form a corporation called the Seattle Perl Consortium (SPC). > We have members who are perl consultants. They pay membership fees. We buy > advertising and we have a team of marketers and salespeople to convince the > PHBs that perl is the way to go with glossy handouts and snazzy powerpoint > presentations. The SPC acts like the marketing department for our small > consultancies. With enough members and a big enough budget, we should be > able to challenge anything Microsoft or Sun would do to market their stuff. (I think that last sentence is an unnecessary stretch, that undermines the proposal -- especially since Sun is only a shadow of its former self at this point -- so I'll ignore this part of an otherwise good proposal, and respond generally.) I think there's a lot of merit to this idea, and I've heard of other groups of consultants profiting by banding together in various forms. In fact, I've been thinking that "Perlity" (my pet term for the Perl Community) would benefit from a "Perl Professional Institute", that does for the whole world of Perl some of what you're proposing we do on a local basis -- most especially, act as a liaison to businesses who want to learn more about Perl, help market the language, find out what businesses like and disklike about Perl, what their misunderstandings about it are, and basically "put a face" on the language. Where do I sign up? 8-} *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From bill at celestial.com Tue Aug 3 15:55:47 2004 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Tue Aug 3 15:55:55 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <20040803200545.GA17195@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040803200545.GA17195@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20040803205547.GA70398@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004, Tim Maher wrote: >On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 10:44:58AM -0700, Jonathan Gardner wrote: >> >> I have a proposal ... >> we form a corporation called the Seattle Perl Consortium (SPC). >> We have members who are perl consultants. They pay membership fees. We buy >> advertising and we have a team of marketers and salespeople to convince the >> PHBs that perl is the way to go with glossy handouts and snazzy powerpoint >> presentations. The SPC acts like the marketing department for our small >> consultancies. With enough members and a big enough budget, we should be >> able to challenge anything Microsoft or Sun would do to market their stuff. > >(I think that last sentence is an unnecessary stretch, that >undermines the proposal -- especially since Sun is only a shadow >of its former self at this point -- so I'll ignore this part of >an otherwise good proposal, and respond generally.) > >I think there's a lot of merit to this idea, and I've heard of >other groups of consultants profiting by banding together in >various forms. > >In fact, I've been thinking that "Perlity" (my pet term for the >Perl Community) would benefit from a "Perl Professional >Institute", that does for the whole world of Perl some of what >you're proposing we do on a local basis -- most especially, act >as a liaison to businesses who want to learn more about Perl, >help market the language, find out what businesses like and >disklike about Perl, what their misunderstandings about it are, >and basically "put a face" on the language. I've often thought that some kind of organization that could hand the billing, accounting, and administrivia of consultants might work, charging a percentage of the billing to cover costs. The biggest hurdle most consultants have to get over is probably the sales and marketing side. Many people are great technically, but are either afraid to sell, don't have the ``people skills'' necessary to handle that part of the business, etc. Another side of this is that it's very hard to balance the time spent doing billable work with the sales and administrative things. One can get a big contract, work like crazy, then have a long dry spell while getting additional sales. Generally ``union'' and/or ``certification'' efforts are most often these are used to reduce competition amongst the guild members. Carroll Quigley put this well in his tome, ``Tragedy and Hope''describing the collusion of monopoly manufacturers and organized labor to increase their profits at the expense of unorganized consumers. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``We believe...that a mugger will kill you in the half-second it takes to draw from the holster, but won't harm you while you dial the police on your cell phone, talk to the dispatcher and wait half an hour for officers to arrive.'' -- Gun-Control Net-work Credo From jgardner at jonathangardner.net Tue Aug 3 16:01:25 2004 From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan Gardner) Date: Tue Aug 3 16:01:56 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <4450.63.175.179.226.1091559861.squirrel@63.175.179.226> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <4450.63.175.179.226.1091559861.squirrel@63.175.179.226> Message-ID: <200408031401.25223.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> On Tuesday 03 August 2004 12:04 pm, Matt Beland wrote: > Jonathan Gardner said: > > I have a proposal that many of you won't like and frankly, I don't > > think it will work in its current working form. I'd like some input and > > ideas positive or negative. If we could get it working, I think it will > > be a huge benefit to all of us. > > I don't know how much room I have to speak on this; I am a consultant, > but Perl is a tool for the work I do, not the main focus of my > consultancy. I suspect that is true of many of the "Perl Consultants" on > this list, and so joining an organization focused on Perl wouldn't be > very > cost-effective. > Your comments are very useful. I didn't think of it that way. > But frankly, this sounds like it has all the disadvantages of working for > someone else with none of the advantages of being independent. I'm > particularly uncomfortable with the idea of a "union"; as a technical > consultant, I sell my services based on my skills and abilities, not a > negotiated pay schedule based on seniority and dues paid. Unionized labor > is a solution to the powerlessness of workers who are interchangable; > that's not a problem we face. Look at the "success" of the engineering > union over at Boeing; I know a number of engineers who nearly quit in > disgust when the whole thing started, and since then have either left for > other companies or are cynically amused at the problems the union is > facing. > I proposed a bunch of ideas, and some of them I don't think are that good. But they had some merit, so they needed to be brought up, if just to shoot them down. The "union" concept where we set payscales was one idea that I didn't personally like. You have explained why I don't like it. So ignore that idea, and consider the other ones individually. > Yes, there are advantages to collaboration, but they're best limited to > specific areas and actions. For example, it's an excellent idea to pool > certain common resources; shared office space, vendor-neutral advertising > (e.g. the advantages of Perl in business, supporting local business > through local consultancies, etc), buyer's cooperatives for services, > even things like office supplies and printing services. > Office space - that's a good idea. I like the ideas of the office supplies and printing services as well. Heck, I'd love to have a secretary at times to keep people away from me while I work! These are all things that SPC could probably do better than you can do yourself. I admit the big great idea is the vendor-neutral advertising. My idea for how it would work is something like this. First, SPC marketing and sales convince someone to do their next big project in perl, and not C# or Java. Throughout the process, they had a consultant who was working with this particular client. Which consultant among the members? It depends on who is available and who is willing to spend time working with a potential customer like this. When the client decides to go ahead and do it, the consultant gets first bid. He can "sub-contract" out parts of the project to other members of the SPC, or he can open up the contract for bidding among the members. The SPC will be careful that all the bids are reasonable and that the client won't make an awful decision in choosing the specific consultant to use. >From there, the consultant or whoever gets the bid or whatever method we use has a personal relationship with the client. He keeps going, bringing in extra resources when needed, or using the other services (call centers? 24/7 on-call?) of SPC to fill in where he can't. I admit this idea is probably pretty unworkable. > However, sharing of vendor-specific marketing, group proposals, etc. gets > into areas of job allocation, hierarchies of consultants, and all sorts > of cures that are worse than the disease. OK, the Perl consulting market > is contracting. Is that because there aren't enough big Perl groups > bidding for the available jobs? No, it's because there are fewer Perl > jobs available. So, then, the best solutions are to increase the number > of Perl jobs or decrease the number of Perl consultants. The first is > something an organization can do; see below. The second is something an > organization could only do by such measures as "certification" of > "legitimate" consultants (a moment while I clear the nasty taste from my > mouth) or forcing independents out of business. Meanwhile, as > individuals, some will physically move to other areas, some will change > their business to adjust to the changes in demand, others will fail. The > organization as a whole may survive, but as individuals, the options are > exactly the same within the organization as without, except that inside > the organization we could have compensation adjustments and performance > reviews and cake. > This is where the devil is. I think, first of all, you have to segment out the market. There is the "tiny" market, where the jobs are incredibly small. There is the mid-sized market for jobs that are bigger. And there is the incredibly-titanic-huge jobs where the bids are in the millions or more. We are doing great in the tiny market, poorly in the mid market, and are absolutely unrepresented in the titanic market. But you are right. How does SPC treat its members appropriately? There will be jealousy, competition, etc, especially when there are too many consultants. There would have to be some way to make everyone feel it is fair. The SPC would try to maximize the market, always trying to bring in more work than workers. This will raise the prices and cause all of us to get rich. But what if it can't? Maybe it should be extremely selective in its membership - you have to be voted in, or something. Maybe it could say, "Hey, I'm sorry, we can't support you so we'll refund your dues and send you on your way." Maybe it can just get out of the way and let the members figure it out for themselves. It gives the client a phonebook of members and says, "We'd love to hook you up with a consultant. Choose one." or something like that. > Though, if it's *good* cake, it might be worth it. > In other words, it's so crazy it just may work! ;-) > > In the future, if this is successful, we can expand this into the > > Seattle Open Source / Free Software Consortium, or maybe even a > > world-wide organization with chapters in every major city. > > Maybe. Would that be a good thing? > > GSLUG started to create a Washington Linux Council last year; the effort > didn't fail, exactly, so much as it fizzled out for lack of resources. lack of resources = lack of money. If they had well-paid positions, there would be more than enough "volunteers". > Something like that could be very effective; it's modeled after the > advocacy groups who do so much advertising ("Behold the power of cheese", > etc.) They don't advertise specific organizations; they increase market > awareness of widgets and their capabilities, and it's up to the > individual widget-makers to turn that increased visibility and interest > into sales. Here, such a collaboration could market the capabilities of > Perl in business, the advantages over other popular programming > languages, and in general just get non-technical business people thinking > of Perl (and Perl consultants) as people who can get things done for > them. When we as a whole have business people (a.k.a. "clients") thinking > about Perl as a possibility, individual advertising dollars will be much > more effective for our own consultancies. With less money spent, because > we won't be paying as much for accountants and offices and cake. The only problem I see with this is the cheese marketers (and the milk marketers) seem to have everyone on board, almost like a cheese tax or a milk tax. "Oh, you sell milk? Well, you'll have to pay us for the right to sell milk, because we advertise milk for you." I don't see this happening. We have to bring value to the consultants so that by paying SPC, they get something in return of greater value. They shouldn't be able to get this without paying. I do think the generic marketing ("Behold the power of perl!") is the direction SPC would probably go. It would publish "studies" (that cost money) that show perl as being effective. It would show case studies of perl shops in the area or the country. It would bring in or advertise perl training and perl awareness workshops. It would probably devote some resources to make sure that government is supporting the perl community through perl contracts and such. I'm just throwing ideas back at you, and soaking in what you have said. Some of the stuff is half devil's advocate type scenario. Anyway, in summary, there are really two possible routes for SPC. First it could become a giant consultant itself, with huge resources that it can organize. The employees are well-paid because the company takes very little off the top (non-profit). But they are pretty much just employees. Or, it could be the "I'm your marketing arm" type deal where it collects a tax and does generic perl marketing. (Think "cheese" or "milk".) And then there are deals in between. -- Jonathan Gardner jgardner@jonathangardner.net From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Tue Aug 3 17:02:10 2004 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Tue Aug 3 17:17:00 2004 Subject: SPUG: Regex multi-line question Message-ID: <200408032202.PAA06876@carios2.ca.boeing.com> > I can do it easily enough with a while<> loop (or a > parser) but I figure there is a more obfuscated > solution that one of you can propose using one line. This uses a while loop... but, frankly, I think you'll wind up in obfuscation hell without one: -- Charles DeRykus use strict; use warnings; # FORE...!! : golf course use only... { local $/; $_ = ; } while ( m{ \G .*? (.*?) .*? (.*?) }xsg ) { my( $type,$path,$tar ) = ( $1, $2, $3); print join( ", " => $type,$path,$tar), "\n"; } __END__ MUSIC /home/woody/vinyl/Migration JB_Migration.tar MUSIC /home/woody/cd/Migration JB_Migration.tar MUSIC /home/woody/cass/Migration JB_Migration.tar From haircut at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 21:12:23 2004 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Tue Aug 3 21:12:26 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <9ebd651104080319112c418cfb@mail.gmail.com> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <9ebd651104080319112c418cfb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9ebd6511040803191248293f64@mail.gmail.com> Interesting ideas, Jonathan! I may be wrong, but at first take this sounds like a traditional consulting firm (with Frosting), albeit one that sounds great to work for. I would first suggest the name be changed to the "Seattle Programming Consortium", to de-emphasize the importance of Perl. The programming language shouldn't get in the way of obtaining contracts, and limiting the consortium's name to something Perl-centric would definitely reduce options. I agree with Matt Beland in this respect. This is not to say, however, that Perl would and could be the language of choice for every project! Imagine this scenario: "We've evaluated several possibilities and decided that this will be implemented as a SOAP Web service driven by Apache/mod_perl on commodity Linux hardware. Your license fees will be approximately $0 and development time will be minimal." I've added comments within your email below. When I thought that an idea would be ancillary to the core values of the consortium, I've labeled it "Frosting": something nice to have but costs more money. Perhaps features for future revisions of the SPC would also be considered "Frosting". On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:44:58 -0700, Jonathan Gardner wrote: [...] > Basically, we form a corporation called the Seattle Perl Consortium (SPC). > We have members who are perl consultants. They pay membership fees. We buy > advertising and we have a team of marketers and salespeople to convince the > PHBs that perl is the way to go with glossy handouts and snazzy powerpoint > presentations. The SPC acts like the marketing department for our small > consultancies. With enough members and a big enough budget, we should be > able to challenge anything Microsoft or Sun would do to market their stuff. > > SPC could provide legal assistance, accounting assistance, business advice, > and misc. services. Frosting? Core should be getting quality contracts lined up for SPC members. > The idea is to move everything but perl work off of the > consultants into the SPC where people who specialize in that sort of thing > can do it properly and for far less than you would do it yourselves. (Going > rate for an accountant << going rate for experienced perl consultant). Core values! Nice. > SPC could provide on-call 24/7 service with a call center and on-call > consultants. Interesting idea. I'm sure it's something that clients would appreciate. > SPC may be able to fund its own projects. For instance, if there is a need > for a specific piece of software, but no company is willing to fund it, but > it would be useful to all of the members of SPC, SPC may hire some of the > consultants to implement the project. Or maybe a grant from The Perl Foundation, or some other charitable organization? This would be easier to acquire were SPC not-for-profit. Seems like Frosting. > To smooth the market cycles, SPC may collect a hoard of cash that it will > use to employ the consultants during difficult times. Rather than compete > with the clients, SPC would wait to do its projects until the slow cycles. > > SPC may also be a standards body, codifying best practices and technology to > make the work its members do consistent and unified. Frosting. > SPC could provide services you'd find in a guild or a union. We could set > prices, establish accreditation, and help apprentices pair off with gurus. Frosting? > SPC will be basically non-profit. All the profit from the actual work goes > into the pockets of the consultants, with perhaps a small cut to go back to > the SPC to fund more of its activities. Could it really be 501(c)(3)? That would be cool. > In the future, if this is successful, we can expand this into the Seattle > Open Source / Free Software Consortium, or maybe even a world-wide > organization with chapters in every major city. Woo hoo! Joining up with already existant organizations is a good idea, especially if they've already secured 501(c)(3) status, assuming that is what SPC seeks. [...] Thoughts? -- Adam Monsen http://adammonsen.com/ From m3047 at inwa.net Tue Aug 3 23:25:11 2004 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Tue Aug 3 23:26:39 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium Message-ID: I plan to move to India and charge American Perl Consultants $50/hour(US) to go trekking. I will get government legislation passed requiring said Americans to have culturally-similar and "certified" guide accompany them; naturally, $50/hour(US) will allow plenty cash to buy off politicians as well as pump liquidity into local economy. I will file patent on business process with USPTO, then use WIPO to enforce in other countries; ultimately sell licenses to leave home over web for microcash. (Semantics are the hard part; vocalization is easy. Must learn Chinese.) Scriven in a separate thread by someone whose domain vaguely reminds me of a Hitchcock movie: >This uses a while loop... but, frankly, I think you'll >wind up in obfuscation hell without one: use strict; use IRS::5783ZZB3; use ITAR::mem3a5B; use IEEE::983X-ftr(9); while ($history_repeats_itself) { ($jobshop->do_billing() or Licensed_business->new( $accountant )) or die "I blame it on su..su..society"; # URL of funny looking aliens here } (insert errors about jobshop and accountant here after debugging problem with history_repeats_itself) -- Fred Morris fredm3047@inwa.net (I-ACK) From schieb at cobaltgroup.com Wed Aug 4 00:07:02 2004 From: schieb at cobaltgroup.com (Brian Schieber) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:07:01 2004 Subject: SPUG: MakeMaker question, if you will... (again) Message-ID: <200001031720.JAA21600@beryllium.cobaltgroup.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1927 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20000103/119ddf1a/attachment.bat From schieb at cobaltgroup.com Wed Aug 4 00:07:02 2004 From: schieb at cobaltgroup.com (Brian Schieber) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:07:02 2004 Subject: SPUG: MM_Unix mod needed? Message-ID: <200001062214.OAA10520@beryllium.cobaltgroup.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1371 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20000106/8a3d2eb5/attachment.bat From schieb at cobaltgroup.com Wed Aug 4 00:07:02 2004 From: schieb at cobaltgroup.com (Brian Schieber) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:07:03 2004 Subject: SPUG: uninstall error in MakeMaker Message-ID: <200001102018.MAA13606@beryllium.cobaltgroup.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20000110/1e1603f8/attachment.bat From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 4 00:07:32 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:07:34 2004 Subject: SPUG: O'Reilly Univ. of Perl, 2000 In-Reply-To: <1654BC972546D31189DA00508B318AC801C87F9F@charmander.wrq.com> from "Todd Wells" at Aug 25, 0 08:59:20 am Message-ID: <200008251608.JAA02562@consultix.wa.com> >> Message submitted at: Fri Aug 25 09:08:27 PDT 2000 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2645 According to Todd Wells: > > Tim, I notice the home page says this: > > Perl User Groups > You can receive a 20% discount on all fees for tutorials by entering your > user group code in the discount field. > > Is there a SPUG code? Yes! I'll figure out what it is and get back to you. -TIm > > -Todd > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Maher/CONSULTIX [mailto:tim@consultix-inc.com] > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 6:51 AM > To: spug-list@pm.org > Subject: SPUG: O'Reilly Univ. of Perl, 2000 > > > O'REILLY BRINGS ITS EXPERTISE TO YOU AT UNIVERSITY OF PERL 2000 > > O'Reilly University of Perl 2000 is a four-city tour offering > two-day tutorials featuring the best Perl training available. > This cross-country tour will start in Seattle and move to Los Angeles > and Atlanta, ending in New York City. > > O'Reilly University of Perl 2000 will be taught by top-rated leaders in > the Perl community; Damian Conway, Mark-Jason Dominus, Brian D. Foy, > Dan Klein, Michael Rodriquez, Randal Schwartz, and Nathan Torkington. > These fearless leaders will teach you solutions to your programming > problems, offer advanced programming techniques and much more. > > Eleven courses in all, the tutorials will focus on: > > 'Perl 101' for programmers new to Perl > Perl CGI and Web programming > Advanced Perl Programming techniques > mod_perl > > Dates and Locations: > > October 2 & 3: Seattle, Hyatt Regency Bellevue > October 5 & 6: Los Angeles, The Westin Los Angeles Airport > October 16 & 17: Atlanta, Sheraton Atlanta > October 19 & 20: New York City, New York Marriott East Side > > For more information about O'Reilly University of Perl 2000, go to: > http://conferences.oreilly.com/uperl2k/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For full traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; otherwise use spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > *========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | Email: tim@consultix-inc.com Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com | |Training- TIM MAHER: Unix, Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl, OOP, Parsing | |CLASSES - 8/21: Shell & Utilities 9/11: Perl&Modules 10/16: Int. Perl | I========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For full traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; otherwise use spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 4 00:07:32 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:07:34 2004 Subject: SPUG: O'Reilly Univ. of Perl, 2000 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000825084600.00a4dd58@mail.oz.net> from "Ben Burnett" at Aug 25, 0 09:07:37 am Message-ID: <200008251642.JAA02774@consultix.wa.com> >> Message submitted at: Fri Aug 25 09:42:02 PDT 2000 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1649 According to Ben Burnett: > > Hey Tim, > > I'm looking over the course list for the University of Perl and I'm having > a tough time deciding what to attend. I would really like to go to them > all especially the Damian Conway OOP course, but if I can hear him speak at > another time, maybe I can attend some other things at the university. I > seem to remember you mentioning something at the last meeting about him > giving some talks to the SPUG while he was in town. Is this right or is it > just my overactive imagination? Damian will give a talk to SPUG in early October, but it will be one of his short, brilliantly wacky ones, probably Lingua::Romana::Perligata (about programming in Latin using Perl), not one of the serious seminars. In other news, I'm currently working out the details for Damian to present a two-day version of his Adv. OOP course followed by his one-day Text Parsing course in October, but those classes will be held in *Chicago* - which might be a long commute for most SPUGsters! He's not likely to give any more classes in Seattle this year, so the Univ of Perl might be the best way to go for you (unless Chicago is handy). > > Thanks, > > Ben *========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | Email: tim@consultix-inc.com Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com | |Training- TIM MAHER: Unix, Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl, OOP, Parsing | |CLASSES - 8/21: Shell & Utilities 9/11: Perl&Modules 10/16: Int. Perl | I========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For full traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; otherwise use spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 4 00:07:32 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:07:34 2004 Subject: SPUG: Discount Code for SPUG Members Message-ID: <200008252334.QAA04898@consultix.wa.com> >> Message submitted at: Fri Aug 25 16:34:15 PDT 2000 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1278 The code "DSUG" cited below by Denise is the magical discount code that SPUGsters should use to register for the O'Reilly classes. -Tim ========================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: www.halcyon.com/spug | ========================================================== According to Denise Olliffe: > From deniseo@oreilly.com Fri Aug 25 09:49:03 2000 > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:32:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: Denise Olliffe > Message-Id: <200008251632.JAA16990@rock.west.ora.com> > To: spug@halcyon.com > Subject: Correction and info for ORA University of Perl 2000 > > A 20% discount is being offered to O'Reilly UG Members that wish to > attend the O'Reilly University of Perl 2000. > > When registering for the tutorials, enter the code: DSUG in the > Discount Code field on the form. > > Denise ========================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: www.halcyon.com/spug | ========================================================== - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For full traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; otherwise use spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 4 00:19:40 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:19:46 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <9ebd6511040803191248293f64@mail.gmail.com> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <9ebd651104080319112c418cfb@mail.gmail.com> <9ebd6511040803191248293f64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040804051940.GA23494@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 07:12:23PM -0700, Adam Monsen wrote: > > > SPC will be basically non-profit. All the profit from the actual work goes > > into the pockets of the consultants, with perhaps a small cut to go back to > > the SPC to fund more of its activities. IANAL, but on the other hand I have played that role many times, with the help of some Nolo Press books, and I've won accolades from the real laywers I've been up against for my achievements. With that in mind, IMHO, what you're describing would be a normal "Domestic Profit Corporation", with "Section S" tax-filing status, rather than a non-profit (or perhaps it could also be an LLC, but I digress). The reason is the only money the "consultants" could take out of a non-profit would be a "reasonable salary", not a share of all "profits". > Could it really be 501(c)(3)? That would be cool. Not the way it's described above, but perhaps it could spawn a separate 501c3 corp.l for the purpose of doing some non-profit work too. > Thoughts? > > -- > Adam Monsen > http://adammonsen.com/ > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org -- *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From wildwood_players at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 09:26:50 2004 From: wildwood_players at yahoo.com (Richard Wood) Date: Wed Aug 4 09:54:41 2004 Subject: SPUG: Regex multi-line question In-Reply-To: <200408032202.PAA06876@carios2.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: <20040804142650.67309.qmail@web11506.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks to all three that responded to this call. Charles' solution is along the lines of what I was thinking. Regards, Rich Wood --- ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com wrote: > > I can do it easily enough with a while<> loop (or > a > > parser) but I figure there is a more obfuscated > > solution that one of you can propose using one > line. > > This uses a while loop... but, frankly, I think > you'll > wind up in obfuscation hell without one: > > -- > Charles DeRykus > > use strict; > use warnings; > > # FORE...!! : golf course use only... > > { local $/; $_ = ; } > > while ( m{ \G .*? .*? (.*?) > .*? (.*?) > }xsg ) { > > my( $type,$path,$tar ) = ( $1, $2, $3); > print join( ", " => $type,$path,$tar), "\n"; > > } > __END__ > > > > MUSIC > /home/woody/vinyl/Migration > JB_Migration.tar > > > MUSIC > /home/woody/cd/Migration > JB_Migration.tar > > > MUSIC > /home/woody/cass/Migration > JB_Migration.tar > > > > ===== Richard O. Wood Wildwood IT Consultants, Inc. wildwood_players@yahoo.com 425.281.1914 mobile 206.544.9885 desk __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From LUIMAD at SAFECO.com Wed Aug 4 12:38:08 2004 From: LUIMAD at SAFECO.com (MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L) Date: Wed Aug 4 12:38:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: soap content providers Message-ID: <9410EC84C0872141B27A2726613EF45D0EAC8966@psmrdcex01.psm.pin.safeco.com> List, Any of you know where can I access free soap content like news and stuff like that? Thanks, Luis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040804/8fa50d42/attachment.htm From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Wed Aug 4 13:01:36 2004 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Wed Aug 4 13:01:40 2004 Subject: SPUG: soap content providers In-Reply-To: <9410EC84C0872141B27A2726613EF45D0EAC8966@psmrdcex01.psm.pin.safeco.com> Message-ID: Luis, If you don't particularly care what the content is, I know that Amazon has a soap interface for their product database. People use it for doing things like getting artwork for albums of MP3s, etc. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:38 AM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG: soap content providers List, Any of you know where can I access free soap content like news and stuff like that? Thanks, Luis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040804/d64de2ed/attachment.htm From LUIMAD at SAFECO.com Wed Aug 4 13:07:52 2004 From: LUIMAD at SAFECO.com (MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L) Date: Wed Aug 4 13:07:56 2004 Subject: SPUG: soap content providers Message-ID: <9410EC84C0872141B27A2726613EF45D0EAC8969@psmrdcex01.psm.pin.safeco.com> Peter, I'm more interested in news, stock quotes that kind of content. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Darley [mailto:pdarley@kinesis-cem.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:02 AM To: MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L; spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: RE: SPUG: soap content providers Luis, If you don't particularly care what the content is, I know that Amazon has a soap interface for their product database. People use it for doing things like getting artwork for albums of MP3s, etc. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:38 AM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG: soap content providers List, Any of you know where can I access free soap content like news and stuff like that? Thanks, Luis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040804/a24fdd05/attachment.htm From tallpeak at hotmail.com Wed Aug 4 13:15:04 2004 From: tallpeak at hotmail.com (Aaron W. West) Date: Wed Aug 4 13:15:08 2004 Subject: SPUG: soap content providers References: Message-ID: Some news these days is in RSS, right? Not SOAP. SOAP is more for RPC/IPC/data interchange than for content distribution, I think... ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Darley To: MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L ; spug-list@mail.pm.org Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:01 AM Subject: RE: SPUG: soap content providers Luis, If you don't particularly care what the content is, I know that Amazon has a soap interface for their product database. People use it for doing things like getting artwork for albums of MP3s, etc. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L [LUIMAD@SAFECO.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:38 AM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG: soap content providers List, Any of you know where can I access free soap content like news and stuff like that? Thanks, Luis From LUIMAD at SAFECO.com Wed Aug 4 13:18:00 2004 From: LUIMAD at SAFECO.com (MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L) Date: Wed Aug 4 13:18:04 2004 Subject: SPUG: soap content providers Message-ID: <9410EC84C0872141B27A2726613EF45D0EAC896B@psmrdcex01.psm.pin.safeco.com> Exactly that's what I want. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron W. West [mailto:tallpeak@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:15 AM To: MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L; spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: soap content providers Some news these days is in RSS, right? Not SOAP. SOAP is more for RPC/IPC/data interchange than for content distribution, I think... ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Darley To: MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L ; spug-list@mail.pm.org Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:01 AM Subject: RE: SPUG: soap content providers Luis, If you don't particularly care what the content is, I know that Amazon has a soap interface for their product database. People use it for doing things like getting artwork for albums of MP3s, etc. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L [LUIMAD@SAFECO.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:38 AM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG: soap content providers List, Any of you know where can I access free soap content like news and stuff like that? Thanks, Luis From icmf3 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 13:25:19 2004 From: icmf3 at yahoo.com (Joshua Reedy) Date: Wed Aug 4 13:25:21 2004 Subject: SPUG: soap content providers In-Reply-To: <9410EC84C0872141B27A2726613EF45D0EAC8969@psmrdcex01.psm.pin.safeco.com> Message-ID: <20040804182519.45863.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> You can probably find what you're looking for on the list of web services at X Methods: http://www.xmethods.net/ --- "MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L" wrote: > Peter, > > > > I'm more interested in news, stock quotes that kind of content. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Darley [mailto:pdarley@kinesis-cem.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:02 AM > To: MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L; spug-list@mail.pm.org > Subject: RE: SPUG: soap content providers > > > > Luis, > > If you don't particularly care what the content is, I know that > Amazon has a soap interface for their product database. People use > it > for doing things like getting artwork for albums of MP3s, etc. > > Thanks, > > Peter Darley > > -----Original Message----- > From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org > [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of MADRANO > ZALVIDAR, L > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:38 AM > To: spug-list@mail.pm.org > Subject: SPUG: soap content providers > > List, > > > > Any of you know where can I access free soap content like news > and stuff like that? > > > > Thanks, > > Luis > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pbellam at cobaltgroup.com Wed Aug 4 13:25:52 2004 From: pbellam at cobaltgroup.com (Bellam, Prakasa) Date: Wed Aug 4 13:25:56 2004 Subject: SPUG: soap content providers Message-ID: <25160AB2660F8B449892B0EB9C29C16502B569D2@ex-sea-is2.main.cobaltgroup.com> This is one of the resources for all kinds of news together in one place. If you Google 'rss' you will get plenty. http://www.oreillynet.com/meerkat/ http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/rss/2000/03/17/about_meerkat.html -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:18 AM To: Aaron W. West; spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: RE: SPUG: soap content providers Exactly that's what I want. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron W. West [mailto:tallpeak@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:15 AM To: MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L; spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: soap content providers Some news these days is in RSS, right? Not SOAP. SOAP is more for RPC/IPC/data interchange than for content distribution, I think... ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Darley To: MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L ; spug-list@mail.pm.org Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:01 AM Subject: RE: SPUG: soap content providers Luis, If you don't particularly care what the content is, I know that Amazon has a soap interface for their product database. People use it for doing things like getting artwork for albums of MP3s, etc. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of MADRANO ZALVIDAR, L [LUIMAD@SAFECO.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:38 AM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG: soap content providers List, Any of you know where can I access free soap content like news and stuff like that? Thanks, Luis _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Wed Aug 4 17:20:43 2004 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 17:35:30 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium Message-ID: <200408042220.PAA13841@carios2.ca.boeing.com> >Scriven in a separate thread by someone whose domain vaguely > reminds me of a Hitchcock movie: >>This uses a while loop... but, frankly, I think you'll >>wind up in obfuscation hell without one: "The Birds"... ? Or were you thinking along the lines of "Psycho" :) If anyone's interested though, I notice Boeing's hiring again ... (Drat, I wish I had some influence over hiring.) Of course, for some, the prospect of working here triggers imagery of the Bates motel. -- Charles DeRykus From ingy at ttul.org Thu Aug 5 17:08:02 2004 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Thu Aug 5 17:08:34 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Message-ID: <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> This a very interesting thread. But email threads eventually die. We probably need to meet in person (for some definition of we). In the meantime I've set up: http://spc.kwiki.org/ Let's see where this goes. Cheers, Brian On 03/08/04 10:44 -0700, Jonathan Gardner wrote: > Many of use are perl consultants. We spend a great deal of time finding > clients and we just don't have the resources to prepare spiels or case > studies or advertising in the proper media. So we end up mostly as > parasites because we can't generate new projects and clients and we only > clean up where others have gone before. (I am speaking generally, of > course.) We see this because the current perl market is contracting, not > expanding. > > I have a proposal that many of you won't like and frankly, I don't think it > will work in its current working form. I'd like some input and ideas > positive or negative. If we could get it working, I think it will be a huge > benefit to all of us. > > Some of the ideas I don't endorse, I am only putting them on the floor for > discussion because they have some merit. > > Basically, we form a corporation called the Seattle Perl Consortium (SPC). > We have members who are perl consultants. They pay membership fees. We buy > advertising and we have a team of marketers and salespeople to convince the > PHBs that perl is the way to go with glossy handouts and snazzy powerpoint > presentations. The SPC acts like the marketing department for our small > consultancies. With enough members and a big enough budget, we should be > able to challenge anything Microsoft or Sun would do to market their stuff. > > SPC could provide legal assistance, accounting assistance, business advice, > and misc. services. The idea is to move everything but perl work off of the > consultants into the SPC where people who specialize in that sort of thing > can do it properly and for far less than you would do it yourselves. (Going > rate for an accountant << going rate for experienced perl consultant). > > SPC could provide on-call 24/7 service with a call center and on-call > consultants. > > SPC may be able to fund its own projects. For instance, if there is a need > for a specific piece of software, but no company is willing to fund it, but > it would be useful to all of the members of SPC, SPC may hire some of the > consultants to implement the project. > > To smooth the market cycles, SPC may collect a hoard of cash that it will > use to employ the consultants during difficult times. Rather than compete > with the clients, SPC would wait to do its projects until the slow cycles. > > SPC may also be a standards body, codifying best practices and technology to > make the work its members do consistent and unified. > > SPC could provide services you'd find in a guild or a union. We could set > prices, establish accreditation, and help apprentices pair off with gurus. > > SPC will be basically non-profit. All the profit from the actual work goes > into the pockets of the consultants, with perhaps a small cut to go back to > the SPC to fund more of its activities. > > In the future, if this is successful, we can expand this into the Seattle > Open Source / Free Software Consortium, or maybe even a world-wide > organization with chapters in every major city. > > -- > Jonathan Gardner > jgardner@jonathangardner.net > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Aug 5 17:49:32 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Thu Aug 5 17:49:41 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> Message-ID: <20040805224932.GA7295@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 03:08:02PM -0700, Brian Ingerson wrote: > This a very interesting thread. But email threads eventually die. We probably > need to meet in person (for some definition of we). In the meantime I've set > up: We're meeting tonight at 6:30 at the La Palma restaurant, just South of the Ballard Bridge on the East side. It's between Dravus, the major street (with a stoplight) you would turn onto to get to the GeoSpiza building, and the bridge. *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com Thu Aug 5 19:04:41 2004 From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com) Date: Thu Aug 5 19:19:31 2004 Subject: SPUG: re: XML regex Message-ID: <200408060004.RAA20472@carios2.ca.boeing.com> Hello all, My recent suggested XML regex needed a workaround which I failed to mention. The '\G' below really shouldn't be necessary. The bug was fixed by 5.8.4 but 5.6.1 and 5.8.1 still required the '\G'. Rgds, -- Charles DeRykus use warnings; use strict; # FORE...!! : golf course use only... { local $/; $_ = ; } while ( m{ \G .*? (.*?) .*? (.*?) }xsg ) { my( $type,$path,$tar ) = ( $1, $2, $3); print join( ", " => $type,$path,$tar), "\n"; } __END__ MUSIC /home/woody/vinyl/Migration JB_Migration.tar MUSIC /home/woody/cd/Migration JB_Migration.tar MUSIC /home/woody/cass/Migration JB_Migration.tar From jgardner at jonathangardner.net Thu Aug 5 23:52:44 2004 From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan M. Gardner) Date: Thu Aug 5 23:53:07 2004 Subject: SPC moving onwards (was: Re: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium) In-Reply-To: <20040805224932.GA7295@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> <20040805224932.GA7295@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <200408052152.47024.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 05 August 2004 3:49 pm, Tim Maher wrote: > On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 03:08:02PM -0700, Brian Ingerson wrote: > > This a very interesting thread. But email threads eventually die. We > > probably need to meet in person (for some definition of we). In the > > meantime I've set up: > > We're meeting tonight at 6:30 at the La Palma restaurant, just South of > the Ballard Bridge on the East side. It's between Dravus, the major > street (with a stoplight) you would turn onto to get to the GeoSpiza > building, and the bridge. > The meeting was fun and we got to talk a lot about what the consortium should provide and how we can all participate in it. I set up a mailing list on my home server: SPC-subscribe@jonathangardner.net Adam Monsen promised to write down the notes he took on the new wiki. http://spc.kwiki.org/ Everyone is invited to come join and discuss. It looks like the SPC is going to change its name shortly, and it will fall into two entities. But the overall idea of being specifically perl was voted down. "Open Source" is the name of the game. The advocacy entity will be responsible for schmoozing with the suits. They will hold bi-annual conferences, publish studies, and otherwise publicize "objectively" the work of the consultant group. The consultant group is still in draft, but the basic idea is to get consultants working with marketers, salespeople, accountants, and lawyers. They pool their resources and develop superior software solutions for a fraction of the price. When the consultant group is large enough, it will start to tackle monumental projects and provide the kind of enterprise support that the big, extremely profitable contracts need. We discussed some business ideas and there are some very exciting vertical markets to tackle. We are having another meeting, tentatively at my house in Federal Way Thursday night, and everyone interested is invited. We are going to reach out to the other open source communities in the area (GSLUG, TACLUG, SeaPig, and others). It looks like we will develop the advocacy group first, and then hopefully that will make the job of developing the consultant group that much easier. - -- Jonathan Gardner jgardner@jonathangardner.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBEw6cqp6r/MVGlwwRAtdRAJ0Sen1bbwWY9vOTRbI67o0uSA+ejACgvAK7 TgTSD525PUDXjExZOrRggaI= =81I0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jgardner at jonathangardner.net Thu Aug 5 23:52:44 2004 From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan M. Gardner) Date: Thu Aug 5 23:53:12 2004 Subject: SPC moving onwards (was: Re: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium) In-Reply-To: <20040805224932.GA7295@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> <20040805224932.GA7295@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <200408052152.47024.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 05 August 2004 3:49 pm, Tim Maher wrote: > On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 03:08:02PM -0700, Brian Ingerson wrote: > > This a very interesting thread. But email threads eventually die. We > > probably need to meet in person (for some definition of we). In the > > meantime I've set up: > > We're meeting tonight at 6:30 at the La Palma restaurant, just South of > the Ballard Bridge on the East side. It's between Dravus, the major > street (with a stoplight) you would turn onto to get to the GeoSpiza > building, and the bridge. > The meeting was fun and we got to talk a lot about what the consortium should provide and how we can all participate in it. I set up a mailing list on my home server: SPC-subscribe@jonathangardner.net Adam Monsen promised to write down the notes he took on the new wiki. http://spc.kwiki.org/ Everyone is invited to come join and discuss. It looks like the SPC is going to change its name shortly, and it will fall into two entities. But the overall idea of being specifically perl was voted down. "Open Source" is the name of the game. The advocacy entity will be responsible for schmoozing with the suits. They will hold bi-annual conferences, publish studies, and otherwise publicize "objectively" the work of the consultant group. The consultant group is still in draft, but the basic idea is to get consultants working with marketers, salespeople, accountants, and lawyers. They pool their resources and develop superior software solutions for a fraction of the price. When the consultant group is large enough, it will start to tackle monumental projects and provide the kind of enterprise support that the big, extremely profitable contracts need. We discussed some business ideas and there are some very exciting vertical markets to tackle. We are having another meeting, tentatively at my house in Federal Way Thursday night, and everyone interested is invited. We are going to reach out to the other open source communities in the area (GSLUG, TACLUG, SeaPig, and others). It looks like we will develop the advocacy group first, and then hopefully that will make the job of developing the consultant group that much easier. - -- Jonathan Gardner jgardner@jonathangardner.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBEw6cqp6r/MVGlwwRAtdRAJ0Sen1bbwWY9vOTRbI67o0uSA+ejACgvAK7 TgTSD525PUDXjExZOrRggaI= =81I0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From haircut at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 00:30:05 2004 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Fri Aug 6 00:30:18 2004 Subject: SPC moving onwards (was: Re: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium) In-Reply-To: <200408052152.47024.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> <20040805224932.GA7295@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <200408052152.47024.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Message-ID: <9ebd651104080522302598b1b1@mail.gmail.com> Minutes from tonight's meeting are available here: http://spc.kwiki.org/?MeetingNotes [...] -- Adam Monsen http://adammonsen.com/ From MichaelRWolf at att.net Fri Aug 6 00:46:56 2004 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Fri Aug 6 00:49:15 2004 Subject: Wiki vs email [was: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium] In-Reply-To: <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> (Brian Ingerson's message of "Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:08:02 -0700") References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> Message-ID: Brian Ingerson writes: > This a very interesting thread. But email threads eventually die. [...] > In the meantime I've set up: > > http://spc.kwiki.org/ What's your experience with the life cycle of a Wiki? By implication, you seem to say that they do *not* die. What do they do? Is there something about a Wiki discussion that creates more discussion? Different discussion? Something other than discussion? I'm really interested. You seem to point toward the technology supporting the discussion as being different. I'd like to know why that is. Is there something about the medium that's significantly different than the message that it supports? -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From MichaelRWolf at att.net Fri Aug 6 00:53:32 2004 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Fri Aug 6 00:55:53 2004 Subject: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium In-Reply-To: <9ebd6511040803191248293f64@mail.gmail.com> (Adam Monsen's message of "Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:12:23 -0700") References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <9ebd651104080319112c418cfb@mail.gmail.com> <9ebd6511040803191248293f64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Adam Monsen writes: [...] > I would first suggest the name be changed to the "Seattle > Programming Consortium", to de-emphasize the importance of Perl. Agreed. If Perl is the right language (i.e. tool) for the project, so be it. It will be important on its own merits. Let Perl stand on its own merits in the market place. If it's the best for the project, then it will serve a *business* purpose. Being problem-centered rather than technology-centered is a business-directed *pull* rather than a language-specific *push*. A pull is much better from a business point of view. And this is a business, not a hobby. Businesses have to solve business requirements. As technologists, we (and I mean me, too) tend to look at the technology rather than the business proposition. We (collectively) lost sight of this in the bubble. Let's learn our (business) lessons. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From haircut at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 01:21:47 2004 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Fri Aug 6 01:21:50 2004 Subject: Wiki vs email [was: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium] In-Reply-To: References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> Message-ID: <9ebd65110408052321275dd805@mail.gmail.com> Try it! :) On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:46:56 -0700, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > Brian Ingerson writes: > > > This a very interesting thread. But email threads eventually die. > > [...] > > > In the meantime I've set up: > > > > http://spc.kwiki.org/ > > What's your experience with the life cycle of a Wiki? By implication, > you seem to say that they do *not* die. What do they do? Is there > something about a Wiki discussion that creates more discussion? > Different discussion? Something other than discussion? > > I'm really interested. You seem to point toward the technology > supporting the discussion as being different. I'd like to know why > that is. Is there something about the medium that's significantly > different than the message that it supports? > > -- > Michael R. Wolf > All mammals learn by playing! > MichaelRWolf@att.net > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org > -- Adam Monsen http://adammonsen.com/ From MichaelRWolf at att.net Fri Aug 6 01:32:31 2004 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Fri Aug 6 01:34:51 2004 Subject: SPUG: Bug in shebang parsing? In-Reply-To: <20040705201653.GA20715@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> (Tim Maher's message of "Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:16:53 -0700") References: <20040705201653.GA20715@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: Tim Maher writes: > I've either found a bug in Perl, or there's an undocumented > "feature" that I've suddenly run into for the first time. > Either way, /I don't like it/! 8-{ Tim, It sounds like you're bumping into enough of these she-bang issues that it would behoove you to look at the code that implements the command line processing, especially since you're depending on them for your "Minimal Perl". It may be spooky C code, but you only have to read/understand it, not modify it. I know that your early AT&T history gives you the skills to do that. Heck, back then you had to know C just to dial the phone. SPUG, Anyone know the code base enough to point Tim in the right direction? -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Aug 6 07:59:04 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Fri Aug 6 07:59:14 2004 Subject: SPUG: Bug in shebang parsing? In-Reply-To: References: <20040705201653.GA20715@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> Message-ID: <20040806125904.GA12341@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 11:32:31PM -0700, Michael R. Wolf wrote: > Tim Maher writes: > > > I've either found a bug in Perl, or there's an undocumented > > "feature" that I've suddenly run into for the first time. > > Either way, /I don't like it/! 8-{ > > Tim, > > It sounds like you're bumping into enough of these she-bang issues > that it would behoove you to look at the code that implements the > command line processing, especially since you're depending on them > for your "Minimal Perl". It may be spooky C code, but you only > have to read/understand it, not modify it. I know that your early > AT&T history gives you the skills to do that. Heck, back then you > had to know C just to dial the phone. I'm not afraid of C code, just looking to delegate as many problems as possible to others, which is why I reported this bug instead of trying to fix it myself. But if nobody else can be inspired to fix it, as you've noticed, it's something I'll probably want to do on my own. -Tim *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* > > SPUG, > > Anyone know the code base enough to point Tim in the right > direction? > > -- > Michael R. Wolf > All mammals learn by playing! > MichaelRWolf@att.net > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org -- *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Aug 6 08:10:02 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Fri Aug 6 08:10:16 2004 Subject: SPC moving onwards (was: Re: SPUG: Seattle Perl Consortium) In-Reply-To: <9ebd651104080522302598b1b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <200408031044.58279.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <20040805220802.GA13108@ttul.org> <20040805224932.GA7295@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> <200408052152.47024.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> <9ebd651104080522302598b1b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040806131002.GB12341@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 10:30:05PM -0700, Adam Monsen wrote: > Minutes from tonight's meeting are available here: > http://spc.kwiki.org/?MeetingNotes > Adam Monsen > http://adammonsen.com/ BTW, I "censored" a few potentially lucrative business ideas that could too easily have been preempted by others, and replaced them with generic remarks about the associated "database" and "billing" applications -- remember, /anybody/, including potential competitors, could be reading these Kwiki notes. I'm all for Open Source, but it's unwise for those who wish to survive in business to have Open Product Development Strategies. 8-{ *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From MichaelRWolf at att.net Sun Aug 8 13:45:41 2004 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Sun Aug 8 13:46:03 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M Message-ID: CPAN == 5,000 person-years of work!!!! Back-of-the-email-envelope-calculation.... $100K/yr/programmer * 5,000 programmer-yrs == $500,000,000 500 million dollars!!! WOW!!!! Now that's standing on the shoulders of giants. Well, not all of it's useful, and some was created by non-giants. But still........ I'm not going to live long enough, or work with a big enough team to reproduce even a small percentage of the good parts. There truly is no longer an independent project or product -- it's all built on the shoulders of the extended community. It's sure got me interested. I'd be interested to compare that to the value of some other products -- say VB, C++, C#, Oracle, Ruby, FORTH -- in some kind of ranking like the "Fortune 500" list of software projects. But, practically, there'd be too many variables to normalize it in a reasonable dollars-to-dollars comparison. Alas. Any way, use the 1/2 Billion dollar number when promoting Perl, and CPAN to businesses. It's not the *cost* that they're interested in ($0 in this case), it's the value received that's more important. ================================================================ > CAN CA buy an open source movement? > ADT Magazine - USA > ... One recent study, for example, suggests that the Perl code on CPAN > amounts to over 5,000 person-years of work. CA isn't asking for ... > > > This as-it-happens News Alert is brought to you by Google News (BETA)... > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Create another News Alert: > http://www.google.com/newsalerts?hl=en > > Try Google News: > http://news.google.com/ -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From MichaelRWolf at att.net Sun Aug 8 14:07:25 2004 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Sun Aug 8 14:07:33 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <411679ED.1030702@att.net> Michael R. Wolf wrote: > CPAN == 5,000 person-years of work!!!! > > Back-of-the-email-envelope-calculation.... > > $100K/yr/programmer * 5,000 programmer-yrs == $500,000,000 Not too far off.... The actual "study" (http://www.etla.org/stdout/code/cpan_sloccount.html) quotes: 5,012 programmer-years $677M -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From djames at canyonwood.org Sun Aug 8 19:33:25 2004 From: djames at canyonwood.org (Daniel James) Date: Sun Aug 8 19:34:50 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M In-Reply-To: <411679ED.1030702@att.net> References: <411679ED.1030702@att.net> Message-ID: <4116C655.9040308@canyonwood.org> Michael R. Wolf wrote: > > $100K/yr/programmer * 5,000 programmer-yrs == $500,000,000 > > Not too far off.... The actual "study" > (http://www.etla.org/stdout/code/cpan_sloccount.html) quotes: > > 5,012 programmer-years > $677M I think I'm working for the wrong company... I'm making neither $100k nor ($677m/5012) = $135,075.82! If anyone knows of any openings with either of these salaries, I'm presently updating my resume and would love to hear from you! ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040808/69f16cfe/attachment.htm From jimfl at tensegrity.net Sun Aug 8 21:25:10 2004 From: jimfl at tensegrity.net (Jim Flanagan) Date: Sun Aug 8 21:25:14 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M In-Reply-To: <4116C655.9040308@canyonwood.org> References: <411679ED.1030702@att.net> <4116C655.9040308@canyonwood.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Daniel James wrote: > I think I'm working for the wrong company... I'm making neither $100k > nor ($677m/5012) = $135,075.82! > > If anyone knows of any openings with either of these salaries, I'm > presently updating my resume and would love to hear from you! ;-) Nobody said anything about being PAID $100K. Only about being WORTH $100K, and you're only WORTH $100K while you're writing code that nobody will ever pay for. :) -- ::jimfl http://jimfl.tensegrity.net mailto:jimfl%40t%65ns%65gr%69ty.n%65t From pdarley at kinesis-cem.com Mon Aug 9 09:37:04 2004 From: pdarley at kinesis-cem.com (Peter Darley) Date: Mon Aug 9 09:37:07 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M In-Reply-To: <411679ED.1030702@att.net> Message-ID: Folks, I'm not sure that these estimates are even vaguely correct. When I run SLOCCount on my system I get: Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 56,622 Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 13.86 (166.28) (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05)) Schedule Estimate, Years (Months) = 1.45 (17.45) (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38)) Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule) = 9.53 Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 1,871,872 This code was written in three years by myself (mostly), while I was spending half my work time doing other things. Now, I freely admit that I'm a genius, but... I don't think that there's any earthly way that I'm as productive as nine average programmers (13.86 person-years/1.5 calendar years = 9.12 times average productivity). I think the model in this software is flawed. Thanks, Peter Darley -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Michael R. Wolf Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 12:07 PM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M Michael R. Wolf wrote: > CPAN == 5,000 person-years of work!!!! > > Back-of-the-email-envelope-calculation.... > > $100K/yr/programmer * 5,000 programmer-yrs == $500,000,000 Not too far off.... The actual "study" (http://www.etla.org/stdout/code/cpan_sloccount.html) quotes: 5,012 programmer-years $677M -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From davidinnes at chicagoscience.com Mon Aug 9 14:39:28 2004 From: davidinnes at chicagoscience.com (David Innes (CSG)) Date: Mon Aug 9 14:39:36 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M In-Reply-To: <4116C655.9040308@canyonwood.org> Message-ID: <200408091239150.SM01596@Float> Michael (if I'm reading the interpolations correctly) said: I think I'm working for the wrong company... I'm making neither $100k nor ($677m/5012) = $135,075.82! I say: I think the disconnect comes with the assumption that software value is based exclusively on direct programmer compensation. If you assume only industry-average compensation plus industry-averaged fully-amortized office infrastructure costs you'd be looking at $100-125K per year per programmer. You'd see the average programmer actually taking home maybe a third of that. So, unfortunately for us, the numbers look about right so at least as far as average compensation goes (also unfortunately) we're not working for the wrong companies. Sigh. -- David Innes --- On a different note I have to challenge the topic title. Michael Stevens calculated the theoretical *cost* of producing CPAN, not its actual worth. Just looking at DBI/DBD::Oracle you could be talking tens or hundreds of millions a year considering how much industry pays each year to maintain and operate that one application. CPAN in aggregate is certainly *worth* more than $500M. -- David Innes -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org] On Behalf Of Daniel James Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 5:33 PM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M Michael R. Wolf wrote: > $100K/yr/programmer * 5,000 programmer-yrs == $500,000,000 Not too far off.... The actual "study" (http://www.etla.org/stdout/code/cpan_sloccount.html) quotes: 5,012 programmer-years $677M I think I'm working for the wrong company... I'm making neither $100k nor ($677m/5012) = $135,075.82! If anyone knows of any openings with either of these salaries, I'm presently updating my resume and would love to hear from you! ;-) From MichaelRWolf at att.net Mon Aug 9 15:35:45 2004 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Mon Aug 9 15:36:03 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4117E021.2030008@att.net> Peter Darley wrote: > Folks, > I'm not sure that these estimates are even vaguely correct. When I run > SLOCCount on my system I get: [...] I admire your humility, and hope that you're on my team when we have a chunk of work to do. Michael P.S. Conventional wisdom has a factor of 10 in a normal organization. Don't discount that you may be above average. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf@att.net From andrew at sweger.net Wed Aug 11 23:34:06 2004 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 11 23:34:17 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Double Header - 17 August 2004 Message-ID: August Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting ============================================== Title: Number Puzzler made possible by Object Oriented Perl Speaker: Tom Coleman and... Title: Zope / Plone Speaker: Bill Campbell Meeting Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) Location: Geospiza 3411 Thorndyke Avenue West (See directions below) Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public Info: http://seattleperl.org/ =========================================== Hey, I know August seems like a slow month for everything. This is the perfect time to sit and enjoy a couple of fun presentations. We are once again meeting at Geospiza. Expect to see old friends, enemies, and complete strangers all speaking some form of Perl (at every level). Expect to be exposed to 2.4GHz frequency hopping non-ionizing non-licensed radiation (i.e., 802.11b/g WiFi). Packet transit to what's left of the Internet provided gratis (i.e., free as in the beer) by our hosts at Geospiza. If you want to exchange PGP/GnuPG signatures, please contact me with your public key directly (now!) and I'll bring fingerprint checklists for participants. And now a word or dword about our speakers and their presentations: Tom Coleman has nine years of experience programming with C++ and one year with Visual Basic, Visual Test, and Perl. He currently works for Siemens Medical in Issaquah where they design software and hardware for ultrasound medical equipment. After working for three years in software with Siemens, Tom transitioned to automated testing where he creates and runs scripts. Tom's first technical job was creating reports for a food services company where he enjoyed automating the process to create more free time. In the daily Seattle PI there is this 4x4 number puzzler. Tom is too cheap to purchase the paper, and was too lazy to surf the net and find an online source of them. Perl came to the rescue to help him roll his own. Creating a puzzle was one thing, finding a solution was another, finding all possible solutions, and rating the difficulty of the puzzle was yet another. The challenge became too complicated for me using traditional procedural scripting. Conway entered via his book on object oriented Perl and saved the day. Outline: - An introduction to the PI puzzler - I'll bring enough for everybody to try it we can have a race with pencils and paper (they take about 5 minutes by hand) - An introduction to how object oriented perl made it possible - rough view of the procedural attempt - rough view of the object oriented solution - A hands on introduction to how a "class" helped solve the problem by hiding or "encapsulate" the complicated stuff - organize the complicated data into clusters - give interface of functions to apply to these clusters - Debates about when to use object oriented perl - i.e. blackjack, tic tac toe, data extraction for statistics =========================================== Bill Campbell has over 38 years in the computer industry. He is an expert in software and hardware, an experienced troubleshooter of computer problems, and a specialist in Linux and Unix applications. He has extensive experience installing complex networks, combining Unix, MS-Windows and Apple systems. Most recently, he has become an Internet guru, and has installed Internet Service Providers throughout the United States. Note: Although Mr. Campbell has kindly offered to speak at our meeting, he has informed us that he might be called away at the last minute to attend to other more urgent matters. Such is the way of the technology world. Plone is a CMF (Content Management Framework) that gives the web site designer considerable flexibility while making it easy for people who aren't HTML experts. Bill will cover the following topics related to Plone and Zope. - Join a Plone site which makes you a member of the site with your own directory. - Log in to a Plone site to give you privileged access to your Member area. You may also have other privileges, Manager, Owner, Editor, etc. allowing you extra privileges and access on the main site. - Edit existing documents. - Create new Documents, Folders, Events, etc. on your site. For the purpose of this document, the term ``objects'' refers to Plone Documents, Folders, Events, etc. The object type will only be specified if it's important in the context. - Delete documents. - Hide objects or make them visible. - Submit objects for publication. ================================================================ Directions to Geospiza: ----------------------- Geospiza 3411 Thorndyke Ave. W Seattle, WA 98119 By carpool: (send requests to spug-list@pm.org) ----------- Definately a more fun way to spend the driving time. By Bus: (http://transit.metrokc.gov/) ------- The 15 & 18 stop at West Dravus Street on 15th Avenue The 44, 46 get to Ballard at Market St & 15th Ave (1/2 mile walk, xfer to 15 or 18 at Walgreen's, request a pick-up) The 75 gets to Ballard 4 blocks from Walgreens (see 44, 46) The 17 stops south of the Ballard Bridge Coming from I-5: ---------------- 1 - EXIT onto 50th Street toward Seattle Pacific University (Larry & Gloria Wall's Alma Mater) 2 - TURN SLIGHT LEFT at light at bottom of hill onto Green Lake Way North (following signs toward Fisherman's Terminal) 3 - TURN SLIGHT RIGHT (following traffic flow) onto N 46th St (Following signs to Ballard) 4 - FOLLOW TRAFFIC WINDING down the hill into Ballard TO JOIN NW 55th Street, which is called Market Steet at this point 5 - TURN LEFT onto 15th Ave NW (a major intersection - Safeway, Walgreens, Denny's) 6 - CROSS the Ballard Bridge 7 - RIGHT EXIT onto West Dravus Street (West Dravus Street is the major overpass over 15th Ave West that leads into Magnolia. It's south of the Ballard Bridge, north of the Interbay Golf Center.) 8 - RIGHT TURN onto West Dravus Street, westbound 9 - STRAIGHT for 2 blocks, passing QFC on right 10 - TURN RIGHT onto 17th Ave West (turns into Thorndyke Ave West) 11 - STRAIGHT for 1.25 blocks 12 - Geospiza is on your left: 3411 Thorndyke Avenue West Coming from Downtown: ===================== 1 - Get onto Elliot Avenue West, heading north 2 - SLIGHT RIGHT onto 15th Avenue West 3 - RIGHT EXIT onto West Dravus Street 4 - TURN LEFT onto West Dravus Street, westbound 5 - You're now within 1/2 mile. See directions above. 6 - STRAIGHT for 2 blocks, passing QFC on right 7 - TURN RIGHT onto 17th Ave West (turns into Thorndyke Ave West) 8 - STRAIGHT for 1.25 blocks 9 - Geospiza is on your left: 3411 Thorndyke Avenue West ================================================================ Mapquest: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&searchtab=address&searchtype=address&address=3411+Thorndyke+Ave.+W&city=Seattle&state=wa&zipcode=&search=++Search++ Yahoo! Maps: http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed=XKC6Qup_0ToFdKje6jM_UZzJhylBjoFqlp8tBW5T&csz=seattle%2C+wa&country=us&new=1&name=&qty= (I hope I got all that right. I'm not checking it again.) From ingy at ttul.org Thu Aug 12 00:31:22 2004 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Thu Aug 12 00:31:51 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Double Header - 17 August 2004 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040812053122.GA12306@ttul.org> On 11/08/04 21:34 -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: > > August Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting > ============================================== > > Title: Number Puzzler made possible by Object Oriented Perl > Speaker: Tom Coleman > > and... > > Title: Zope / Plone > Speaker: Bill Campbell Just wondering... is there any Perl tie-in to Zope/Plone which are most decidedly Python? Cheers, Brian From andrew at sweger.net Thu Aug 12 00:40:20 2004 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Thu Aug 12 00:40:27 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Double Header - 17 August 2004 In-Reply-To: <20040812053122.GA12306@ttul.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Brian Ingerson wrote: > On 11/08/04 21:34 -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: > > > > August Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting > > Title: Zope / Plone > > Speaker: Bill Campbell > > Just wondering... is there any Perl tie-in to Zope/Plone which are most > decidedly Python? Caught me! Well, we're playing around with transitioning the SPUG website to a Zope/Plone system and Bill offered to describe his experience encountering Python/Zope/Plone from a Perl perspective. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From bill at celestial.com Thu Aug 12 00:48:37 2004 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Thu Aug 12 00:48:45 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Announcement -- Double Header - 17 August 2004 In-Reply-To: <20040812053122.GA12306@ttul.org> References: <20040812053122.GA12306@ttul.org> Message-ID: <20040812054837.GA66126@alexis.mi.celestial.com> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004, Brian Ingerson wrote: >On 11/08/04 21:34 -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: >> >> August Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting >> ============================================== >> >> Title: Number Puzzler made possible by Object Oriented Perl >> Speaker: Tom Coleman >> >> and... >> >> Title: Zope / Plone >> Speaker: Bill Campbell > >Just wondering... is there any Perl tie-in to Zope/Plone which are most >decidedly Python? I plan to talk about the differences and the learning curve I've been climbing as I learn python. I've been using perl since perl-3.x. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ A Galileo could no more be elected president of the United States than he could be elected Pope of Rome. Both high posts are reserved for men favored by God with an extraordinary genius for swathing the bitter facts of life in bandages of self-illusion. -- H. L. Mencken From kmeyer at blarg.net Fri Aug 13 02:34:12 2004 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Fri Aug 13 02:33:06 2004 Subject: SPUG: FW: Aug 14th, 2004 GSLUG Mtg: Snapshots, MySQL Message-ID: The next Greater Seattle Linux Users Group (GSLUG) meeting will be on Saturday, Aug 14th, 2004. It starts promptly at 10:00 a.m. at the North Seattle Community College Campus. We are confirmed for Room IB 3319. For directions and other details, please visit the GSLUG monthly meetings web page at: http://www.gslug.org/meeting.html The topics will be as follows. Lecturer's bios in trail. * 10:00am - Filesystem Snapshots Using Common Utilities, by Andy Sweger. Not all organizations can afford commercial products that provide time-series archives such as Network Appliance's Snapshot(tm). Others may not be ready to implement solutions such as the open source Enterprise Volume Management System (EVMS). Some of the benefits of having easily accessible filesystem snapshots include permitting users and system administrators to detail changes in files over time or recover lost or damaged files. It is possible to provide similar features of other snapshot solutions using utilities common to nearly any computer in an efficient manner that doesn't waste disk space. This talk will show how anyone can create snapshots of a filesystem using these utilities and easily access the information contained in the repository. Additionally, this talk will show how snapshots can be sent securely to a remote repository without losing file metadata and without requiring the remote server to trust clients. Utilities used in this demonstration include rsync, ssh, and the GNU cp command. In short: cheap filesystem snapshots sent over the network in a secure manner, without wasting disk space, using common commands including rsync, ssh, and cp, all bundled in a nice package. * 11:15am - The State of the Dolphin, by Brian Aker. The "State of the Dolphin" is a walk through how MySQL went from the basement to the Enterprise. Topics include what we have done and our roadmap for the next year. Attention will be paid to the latest features in the 5.0 Alpha tree. ------------------------------------------------------- Speaker Bios: Brian Aker Brian Aker currently works for MySQL as Director of Architecture. In addition to his work on the MySQL Database Engine, he spends the rest of his time working on Apache, MySQL and Perl modules, which include mod_layout and the Apache streaming services module, mod_mp3. In the past, he has been involved with projects for the Army Engineer Corps, The Virtual Hospital, and Slashdot. He lives in Seattle with his dog Rosalynd. --------------- Andy Sweger Andrew Sweger is a Perl programmer and Unix system administrator with over a decade of experience and sole proprietor of Addnorya technology consulting in Seattle, Washington. He uses Debian as a foundation for his projects. He once built a database that tracked the daily changes in the com/net/org SLDs, enjoys introducing others to the wonders of CVS, and loves solving complex problems by integrating free software. He also enjoys carpentry, woodworking, model trains, sailing, good wine, great beer, even better scotch, and almost anything with blinking lights. He is the heir apparent orchestrator of the Seattle Perl Users Group, SPUG. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- The overall GSLUG meeting schedule is as follows: 10:00 am Lecture #1 11:00 am Break 11:10 am Raffle Quiz 11:15 am Lecture #2 12:15 pm Break 12:30 pm Raffle prizes giveaway 12:35 pm GSLUG Announcements Announcements from attendees Request for assistance 1:00 pm ish Formal meeting is adjourned, 'help/gab' session begins * Informal PGP key signing * Attendees can help those who requested assistance * Install fest/assistance * Talking, chatting, blathering, etc, etc 4:00 pm End of meeting -- The GSLUG Crew ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Please feel free to forward this announcement as appropriate. To ensure that you receive future GSLUG announcements. Please join the list at: http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-announce You are also cordially invited to join the general discussion list at: http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general A message board alternative may be found at: http://msgboard.gslug.org/ And a fledgling wiki site at: http://wiki.gslug.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From andrew at sweger.net Fri Aug 13 13:54:26 2004 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Fri Aug 13 13:54:29 2004 Subject: SPUG: CPAN code worth $500M In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Peter Darley wrote: > I'm not sure that these estimates are even vaguely correct. When I run > SLOCCount on my system I get: > [...snip...] > This code was written in three years by myself (mostly), while I was > spending half my work time doing other things. Now, I freely admit that I'm > a genius, but... I don't think that there's any earthly way that I'm as > productive as nine average programmers (13.86 person-years/1.5 calendar > years = 9.12 times average productivity). > I think the model in this software is flawed. If that code you analyzed is Perl, then I think I can explain the discrepancy: Perl is simply a superior language that lends itself to more productive works and Wheeler took this into account when crafting SLOCCount. For example, it is a mere matter of Perlocity to take several pages of COBOL source code and reduce it to a single line of Perl code (sorry, Dora). ;) But seriously, I think you're right. I use SLOCCount to hyperinflate my ego when I'm feeling down. It's better than huffing spray paint. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From andrew at sweger.net Mon Aug 16 18:17:53 2004 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Mon Aug 16 18:18:08 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting REMINDER -- Double Header - 17 August 2004 Message-ID: REMINDER August Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Meeting ============================================== Title: Number Puzzler made possible by Object Oriented Perl Speaker: Tom Coleman and... Title: Zope / Plone Speaker: Bill Campbell Meeting Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 Meeting Time: 7:00 - 9:00 p.m. (networking 6:30 - 7:00) Location: Geospiza 3411 Thorndyke Avenue West (See directions below) Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public Info: http://seattleperl.org/ =========================================== Hey, I know August seems like a slow month for everything. This is the perfect time to sit and enjoy a couple of fun presentations. We are once again meeting at Geospiza. Expect to see old friends, enemies, and complete strangers all speaking some form of Perl (at every level). Expect to be exposed to 2.4GHz frequency hopping non-ionizing non-licensed radiation (i.e., 802.11b/g WiFi). Packet transit to what's left of the Internet provided gratis (i.e., free as in the beer) by our hosts at Geospiza. If you want to exchange PGP/GnuPG signatures, please contact me with your public key directly (now!) and I'll bring fingerprint checklists for participants. And now a word or dword about our speakers and their presentations: Tom Coleman has nine years of experience programming with C++ and one year with Visual Basic, Visual Test, and Perl. He currently works for Siemens Medical in Issaquah where they design software and hardware for ultrasound medical equipment. After working for three years in software with Siemens, Tom transitioned to automated testing where he creates and runs scripts. Tom's first technical job was creating reports for a food services company where he enjoyed automating the process to create more free time. In the daily Seattle PI there is this 4x4 number puzzler. Tom is too cheap to purchase the paper, and was too lazy to surf the net and find an online source of them. Perl came to the rescue to help him roll his own. Creating a puzzle was one thing, finding a solution was another, finding all possible solutions, and rating the difficulty of the puzzle was yet another. The challenge became too complicated for me using traditional procedural scripting. Conway entered via his book on object oriented Perl and saved the day. Outline: - An introduction to the PI puzzler - I'll bring enough for everybody to try it we can have a race with pencils and paper (they take about 5 minutes by hand) - An introduction to how object oriented perl made it possible - rough view of the procedural attempt - rough view of the object oriented solution - A hands on introduction to how a "class" helped solve the problem by hiding or "encapsulate" the complicated stuff - organize the complicated data into clusters - give interface of functions to apply to these clusters - Debates about when to use object oriented perl - i.e. blackjack, tic tac toe, data extraction for statistics =========================================== Bill Campbell has over 38 years in the computer industry. He is an expert in software and hardware, an experienced troubleshooter of computer problems, and a specialist in Linux and Unix applications. He has extensive experience installing complex networks, combining Unix, MS-Windows and Apple systems. Most recently, he has become an Internet guru, and has installed Internet Service Providers throughout the United States. Note: Although Mr. Campbell has kindly offered to speak at our meeting, he has informed us that he might be called away at the last minute to attend to other more urgent matters. Such is the way of the technology world. Plone is a CMF (Content Management Framework) that gives the web site designer considerable flexibility while making it easy for people who aren't HTML experts. Bill will cover the following topics related to Plone and Zope. - Join a Plone site which makes you a member of the site with your own directory. - Log in to a Plone site to give you privileged access to your Member area. You may also have other privileges, Manager, Owner, Editor, etc. allowing you extra privileges and access on the main site. - Edit existing documents. - Create new Documents, Folders, Events, etc. on your site. For the purpose of this document, the term ``objects'' refers to Plone Documents, Folders, Events, etc. The object type will only be specified if it's important in the context. - Delete documents. - Hide objects or make them visible. - Submit objects for publication. ================================================================ Directions to Geospiza: ----------------------- Geospiza 3411 Thorndyke Ave. W Seattle, WA 98119 By carpool: (send requests to spug-list@pm.org) ----------- Definately a more fun way to spend the driving time. By Bus: (http://transit.metrokc.gov/) ------- The 15 & 18 stop at West Dravus Street on 15th Avenue The 44, 46 get to Ballard at Market St & 15th Ave (1/2 mile walk, xfer to 15 or 18 at Walgreen's, request a pick-up) The 75 gets to Ballard 4 blocks from Walgreens (see 44, 46) The 17 stops south of the Ballard Bridge Coming from I-5: ---------------- 1 - EXIT onto 50th Street toward Seattle Pacific University (Larry & Gloria Wall's Alma Mater) 2 - TURN SLIGHT LEFT at light at bottom of hill onto Green Lake Way North (following signs toward Fisherman's Terminal) 3 - TURN SLIGHT RIGHT (following traffic flow) onto N 46th St (Following signs to Ballard) 4 - FOLLOW TRAFFIC WINDING down the hill into Ballard TO JOIN NW 55th Street, which is called Market Steet at this point 5 - TURN LEFT onto 15th Ave NW (a major intersection - Safeway, Walgreens, Denny's) 6 - CROSS the Ballard Bridge 7 - RIGHT EXIT onto West Dravus Street (West Dravus Street is the major overpass over 15th Ave West that leads into Magnolia. It's south of the Ballard Bridge, north of the Interbay Golf Center.) 8 - RIGHT TURN onto West Dravus Street, westbound 9 - STRAIGHT for 2 blocks, passing QFC on right 10 - TURN RIGHT onto 17th Ave West (turns into Thorndyke Ave West) 11 - STRAIGHT for 1.25 blocks 12 - Geospiza is on your left: 3411 Thorndyke Avenue West Coming from Downtown: ===================== 1 - Get onto Elliot Avenue West, heading north 2 - SLIGHT RIGHT onto 15th Avenue West 3 - RIGHT EXIT onto West Dravus Street 4 - TURN LEFT onto West Dravus Street, westbound 5 - You're now within 1/2 mile. See directions above. 6 - STRAIGHT for 2 blocks, passing QFC on right 7 - TURN RIGHT onto 17th Ave West (turns into Thorndyke Ave West) 8 - STRAIGHT for 1.25 blocks 9 - Geospiza is on your left: 3411 Thorndyke Avenue West ================================================================ Mapquest: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&searchtab=address&searchtype=address&address=3411+Thorndyke+Ave.+W&city=Seattle&state=wa&zipcode=&search=++Search++ Yahoo! Maps: http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed=XKC6Qup_0ToFdKje6jM_UZzJhylBjoFqlp8tBW5T&csz=seattle%2C+wa&country=us&new=1&name=&qty= (I hope I got all that right. I'm not checking it again.) _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From mathin at mathin.com Tue Aug 17 11:55:08 2004 From: mathin at mathin.com (Dan Ebert) Date: Tue Aug 17 11:55:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Clearing a variable in a package Message-ID: Hi, I'm writing a module/package and want to have an error string variable al a $Package::errstr which I can set to the error message (and have the method return 0). so you could write something like: use Package; my $p = new Package; my $return = $p->dosomething(); if(!$return) { print $Package::errstr; } Currently I make a global variable, $errstr, in the package (so from the script's point of view it is $Package::errstr) and give it a value if an error is encountered in any of the methods. I want the variable to be reset with every call ... is there a way of doing this without putting a $errstr = ''; at the begining of each method/subroutine in the package? (I hope I explained this well ...) Thanks, Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. - Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------- From m3047 at inwa.net Tue Aug 17 12:20:24 2004 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Tue Aug 17 12:21:39 2004 Subject: coding style Re: SPUG: Clearing a variable in a package Message-ID: At 9:55 AM 8/17/04, Dan Ebert wrote: >I want the variable to be reset with every call ... is there a way of >doing this without putting a $errstr = ''; at the begining of each >method/subroutine in the package? As a matter of style, and not necessarily limited to Perl, although it works well with Perl's OO-paradigm, what I often do when I feel the need for this sort of property is to code internal methods called good() and bad() and call those in the return statement: return good(); or return bad( 'I smell smoke' ); I haven't met a debugger yet which won't let me set a break on bad()! It's also self-documenting and vaguely useful to be able to grep | wc -l for the instances of good() or bad(). Good will typically return true (or 1) after clearing errstr, and bad will return false (or 0) after stashing the message. A common extension is to allow an optional parameter which is the return value.. or define variants goodref( ref ) which returns ref and badref( message ) which returns undef. I often override bad() to close connections or rollback changes. -- Fred Morris fredm3047@inwa.net (I-ACK) From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Tue Aug 17 17:33:23 2004 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Tue Aug 17 17:34:08 2004 Subject: SPUG: Clearing a variable in a package Message-ID: <5DF8FDE8DFE8744388602480FDCC0E310346FE5A@xch-nw-23.nw.nos.boeing.com> Just wondering why you want to reset Package::errstr with every call... Is there some reason you can't use errno's paradigm: the error string is meaningful only if the method/sub's return signals that an error has occurred. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Ebert [mailto:mathin@mathin.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 9:55 AM To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG: Clearing a variable in a package Hi, I'm writing a module/package and want to have an error string variable al a $Package::errstr which I can set to the error message (and have the method return 0). so you could write something like: use Package; my $p = new Package; my $return = $p->dosomething(); if(!$return) { print $Package::errstr; } Currently I make a global variable, $errstr, in the package (so from the script's point of view it is $Package::errstr) and give it a value if an error is encountered in any of the methods. I want the variable to be reset with every call ... is there a way of doing this without putting a $errstr = ''; at the begining of each method/subroutine in the package? (I hope I explained this well ...) Thanks, Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. - Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From andrew at sweger.net Wed Aug 18 00:21:50 2004 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 18 00:22:02 2004 Subject: SPUG: The SPUG Report, 17 August 2004 Message-ID: August is usually a slow month for SPUG and meeting turnout tends to be lower than normal. This year, August decided to throw a few extra punches at us just for fun, but ended up being pretty darn good. When it was time to start the meeting, we discovered that we had no network or access to the Internet. This effectively killed our second presentation from Bill Campbell, which was a live application on the Internet. Then we couldn't find our first speaker, Tom Coleman. Turns out he snuck in late and was hiding in the audience. Tim Maher's thank-you-for-creating-SPUG-etc mug arrived tonight. Twice! (The manufacturer decided that two would be the minimum order quantity.) To top it off, the mug engraving has a small factual error; it claims that Tim lead SPUG from 1993 to 2004. Rather than try to argue with the people that created the error, I have decided to rewrite history. SPUG now officially started in 1993. This should finally put to rest any remaining arguments on whether SPUG started before The Perl Mongers or not. Tom Coleman gave his presentation on the number puzzle solver he developed and how it evolved from a procedural perl script to object-oriented Perl. Tom's technique of breaking a problem down into classes and objects was fun. It combined formal notation and technique with a relaxed practical approach to "stuff and things". As a bonus, Rick Croote gave an impromptu walk-through of his Class module that provides basic services to other classes. I'm not quite sure how to describe it. It takes care of calling all base methods in all base classes of your package. Rick says that the module should be available and entering the public domain soon. These notes are mostly pulled from memory that is fading fast. Meeting attendance was about 40 or 45 people (see, memory corruption, quantum uncertainty). Thanks to Tom Coleman and Rick Croote for informing and entertaining us tonight. My apologies to Bill Campbell for making you drive all that way and not get to share your discoveries. At the moment, no one is committed to be the center of glorious attention at the September SPUG meeting which will be held at 7:00 p.m. on Tuesday the 21st. Please contact me directly (off list) and beg me to let you be in this coveted position. I will coordinate and accept your bids starting now. Thank you. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. From jgardner at jonathangardner.net Wed Aug 18 22:33:06 2004 From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan Gardner) Date: Wed Aug 18 22:33:52 2004 Subject: SPUG: Announcing Federal Way Linux User's Group (FWLUG) Message-ID: <200408182033.34624.jgardner@jonathangardner.net> Some friends and I have decided to investigate whether or not to form yet another LUG in the Puget Sound area. The first meeting will be held at the Federal Way Regional Library in the conference room, Thursday August 26, 2004 from 5:30PM to 6:30PM. All interested parties are invited, even if you don't live in or near Federal Way. The agenda is a discussion on whether we should form, what we should have as our initial goals, when and where we should meet, and what kind of structure we should have. Subscribe to our mailing lists by sending an email to one of the following addresses. General Discussion - FWLUG-subscribe@jonathangardner.net Announcements - FWLUG-announce-subscribe@jonathangardner.net -- Jonathan Gardner jgardner@jonathangardner.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: signature Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040818/a44b278c/attachment.bin From bri at ifokr.org Thu Aug 19 05:19:31 2004 From: bri at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Thu Aug 19 05:19:34 2004 Subject: SPUG: Clearing a variable in a package In-Reply-To: <5DF8FDE8DFE8744388602480FDCC0E310346FE5A@xch-nw-23.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <5DF8FDE8DFE8744388602480FDCC0E310346FE5A@xch-nw-23.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <20040819101931.GR17775@ifokr.org> > Just wondering why you want to reset Package::errstr > with every call... > > Is there some reason you can't use errno's paradigm: > the error string is meaningful only if the method/sub's > return signals that an error has occurred. I'd agree entirely with this - if it's good enough for POSIX, it's good enough for Perl. -- Brian Hatch A pessimist's blood Systems and type is always b-negative. Security Engineer http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040819/898a3f15/attachment.bin From itayf at fhcrc.org Thu Aug 19 18:08:42 2004 From: itayf at fhcrc.org (Itay Furman) Date: Thu Aug 19 18:10:20 2004 Subject: SPUG: Two problems with CPAN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I have two (unrelated ?) problems using CPAN. I am not an expert cpan user, and need help to interpret what has happened. Please see below. itayf@cezanne 40|0> perl -MCPAN -e 'print $CPAN::VERSION,"\n"' 1.76 itayf@cezanne 44|0> perl -V | head -4 Summary of my perl5 (revision 5.0 version 8 subversion 0) configuration: Platform: osname=linux, osvers=2.4.21-1.1931.2.382.entsmp, archname=i386-linux-thread-multi uname='linux stripples.devel.redhat.com 2.4.21-1.1931.2.382.entsmp #1 smp wed aug 6 17:18:52 edt 2003 i686 i686 i386 gnulinux ' Thanks in advance, Itay ======================================================== 1. Text::BibTex installation The module seem to be around, ==== BEGIN QUOTE ==== cpan> i /Text::BibTex/ Module Text::BibTeX (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.31.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::BibFormat (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::BibSort (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::Entry (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::File (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::Name (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::NameFormat (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::Structure (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) Module Text::BibTeX::Value (G/GW/GWARD/Text-BibTeX-0.34.tar.gz) 9 items found ==== END QUOTE ==== but when I try to install it, I get the following message: ==== BEGIN QUOTE ==== cpan> install Text::BibTex Warning: Cannot install Text::BibTex, don't know what it is. Try the command i /Text::BibTex/ to find objects with matching identifiers. ==== END QUOTE ==== Does it mean a problem on my end, or is the module simply not installable via CPAN? ======================================================== 2. CPAN upgrade Due to 1 above I tried to upgrade CPAN -- just in case. Here is what I get. Note the statement below 'CPAN is up to date.' and the statement further below 'CPAN.pm panic: ...' ==== BEGIN QUOTE ==== cpan> install Bundle::CPAN [snip: very long output. Attempted to update Cwd, Zlib::IO, and possibly some other modules. I'm not clear if they were successful.] CPAN is up to date. Bundle summary: The following items in bundle Bundle::CPAN had installation problems: Archive::Tar Bundle::libnet and the following items had problems during recursive bundle calls: Data::Dumper CPAN.pm panic: deep recursion in color_cmd_tmps depth[100] self[CPAN::Distribution=HASH(0x9aa26f8)] id[K/KW/KWILLIAMS/Cwd-2.20.tar.gz] cpan> ==== END QUOTE ==== Should I be worried that I broke CPAN module? If yes, where do I go from here? Once again: thank you for your time. ======================================================== From itayf at fhcrc.org Thu Aug 19 18:48:08 2004 From: itayf at fhcrc.org (Itay Furman) Date: Thu Aug 19 18:48:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Two problems with CPAN In-Reply-To: <412539F0.2040600@activox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, aaron salo wrote: > Hi Itay, > > You have a case-sensitive typo in the module name.... > > Text::BibTeX (capital trailing X) > > cpan> install Text::BibTex (lowercase trailing x) > > That should get you back in biznis. > > Have fun. > Aaron > Ughh. Yes. Thank you! From jay at scherrer.com Fri Aug 20 11:20:30 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri Aug 20 11:20:35 2004 Subject: SPUG: Two problems with CPAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200408200920.30283.jay@scherrer.com> Itay, On Thursday 19 August 2004 04:08 pm, Itay Furman wrote: > cpan> install Text::BibTex This might be trivial, but have tried: cpan> install Text::BibTeX Instead of: cpan> install Text::BibTex Jay From asim at pair.com Mon Aug 23 15:19:14 2004 From: asim at pair.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Mon Aug 23 15:19:21 2004 Subject: SPUG: ShortestWikiContest Message-ID: <20040823201914.GA55417@wokkil.pair.com> Here is an extension of the Perl Golf idea: There is a shortest wiki contest over on http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShortestWikiContest The current winner is SigWiki (4 lines and 222 chars of Perl and Shell). Interestingly the 5 shortest entries are in Perl on Perl. The 6th shortest entry is WyPy in Python (11 lines and 814 chars of Python). It seems to me that if a wiki can be written in 4 lines and 222 chars it must be possible to write it in 4 lines and 221 chars. Asim From haircut at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 12:11:21 2004 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Wed Aug 25 12:11:28 2004 Subject: SPUG: canonical CPAN module distribution tactics: how to 'bootstrap' MANIFEST/SIGNATURE? Message-ID: <9ebd651104082510114a31cecb@mail.gmail.com> I'm in the process of distributing my first CPAN module, and I have a question on the canonical way of bundling a signed distribution tarball. BTW, my module is a framework for writing email autoresponders, ala UNIX vacation(1). See http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?Email::AutoReply (comments/criticisms welcome!) My issue is what files from the module should be checked in to my CVS repository for version control. In general, I like to check in *only* the files required for autogeneration of the distribution tarball, so I don't check in MANIFEST (can be generated with 'make manifest' after running 'perl Makefile.PL') or SIGNATURE (can be generated with 'make distsign' after running 'perl Makefile.PL'). Problem is, SIGNATURE must be included in MANIFEST before 'make distsign' can be run, yet MANIFEST cannot be created before 'make distsign' is run, because cpansign needs an accurate checksum of MANIFEST (which can only be acquired /after/ MANIFEST includes a line for the SIGNATURE file!). Ugh. Any ideas on how to do this gracefully? Attached is a shell script I use to create a clean tarball distribution of Email::AutoReply. The script is run from /home/adamm/cvs/personal/code/perl/cpan , a directory which includes the subdirectory Email-AutoReply/ . And is executed like so: ./makedist Email-AutoReply/ or ./makedist Email-AutoReply My solution was to make the manifest, sign, make the manifest, and sign again. It is pretty clunky to have to sign twice, and I'd like to avoid it if possible. -- Adam Monsen http://adammonsen.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: makedist Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040825/2e35b398/makedist.obj From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 25 17:15:42 2004 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher) Date: Wed Aug 25 17:15:54 2004 Subject: SPUG: Wacky variable parsing rules attack again! Message-ID: <20040825221542.GA9598@jumpy.consultix-inc.com> I just got bit by an old bugaboo that catches up with me periodically. The problem is that Perl runs normally in Obfuscation Mode (aka Poetry Mode), and sooner or later your poetic license is likely to be suspended, and you'll get stranded. An explanation of a the problem, from my upcoming book, follows below. Enjoy 8-} *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | | Classes: UNIX Fundamentals for "Power Users", October 4-7, SeaTac WA | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* As the first programmer to attempt the creation of a full-fledged source code beautifier for Perl (see http://teachmeperl.com/perl_beautifier.html ), I can assure you that some of Perl's ideas about how it should parse its programs are unconventional, surprising, and potentially troublesome. As a case in point, here's the usage string from a program that computes compound interest -- the user supplies the numeric investment amount and interest rate on the command-line as switch variables, as indicated by symbols in the message: "Usage: $0 -amount=$ -rate=%" is parsed as "Usage: $0 -amount=$- rate=%" and prints as "Usage: $0 -amount=0 rate=%" if the (rarely used) built-in variable $- is set to zero (as usual). I know of no other programming language that feels it's sensible to skip over spaces in order to assemble variable names, but Perl prides itself in doing stuff like this -- so watch out! The fix for the problem shown above is of course to backslash the literally intended $ symbol. *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Tim Maher, CEO (206) 781-UNIX (866) DOC-PERL (866) DOC-UNIX | | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com http://TeachMePerl.Com http://TeachMeUnix.Com | *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-* | Watch for my upcoming book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Users & Programmers" | | Classes: UNIX Fundamentals for "Power Users", October 4-7, SeaTac WA | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* From ingy at ttul.org Wed Aug 25 22:47:36 2004 From: ingy at ttul.org (Brian Ingerson) Date: Wed Aug 25 22:48:08 2004 Subject: SPUG: ShortestWikiContest In-Reply-To: <20040823201914.GA55417@wokkil.pair.com> References: <20040823201914.GA55417@wokkil.pair.com> Message-ID: <20040826034736.GA5474@ttul.org> On 23/08/04 16:19 -0400, Asim Jalis wrote: > Here is an extension of the Perl Golf idea: There is a shortest > wiki contest over on > > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShortestWikiContest use Kwiki;Kwiki->new->load_hub->process 39 chars! :P Cheers, Brian From asim at pair.com Thu Aug 26 13:49:44 2004 From: asim at pair.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Thu Aug 26 15:23:37 2004 Subject: SPUG: ShortestWikiContest In-Reply-To: <20040826034736.GA5474@ttul.org> References: <20040823201914.GA55417@wokkil.pair.com> <20040826034736.GA5474@ttul.org> Message-ID: <20040826184944.GA62389@wokkil.pair.com> On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 08:47:36PM -0700, Brian Ingerson wrote: > On 23/08/04 16:19 -0400, Asim Jalis wrote: > > Here is an extension of the Perl Golf idea: There is a shortest > > wiki contest over on > > > > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShortestWikiContest > > use Kwiki;Kwiki->new->load_hub->process > > 39 chars! :P Heh. But seriously, this could be much shorter, if Kwiki supported something like: use Kwiki; Kwiki::process 25 chars. It seems to me that while OO has many advantages, one downside to it is that it makes the API to a library much more complex. Procedural APIs are easier to learn and use, and can easily encapsulate the most common use cases. Asim From mathin at mathin.com Fri Aug 27 14:53:29 2004 From: mathin at mathin.com (Dan Ebert) Date: Fri Aug 27 14:53:32 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file Message-ID: I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as an array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. Does anyone know some other methods I could try? Thanks, Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. - Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------- From KBuff at zetron.com Fri Aug 27 15:19:55 2004 From: KBuff at zetron.com (Kurt Buff) Date: Fri Aug 27 15:19:59 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file Message-ID: <054222519C2ED411A68E00508B603AC706534405@zetxch01.zetron.com> Break it into pieces, sort those, them merge them. Not terribly fast, but it should work. -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Dan Ebert Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 12:53 To: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as an array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. Does anyone know some other methods I could try? Thanks, Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. - Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From charles.e.derykus at boeing.com Fri Aug 27 15:19:29 2004 From: charles.e.derykus at boeing.com (DeRykus, Charles E) Date: Fri Aug 27 15:20:01 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file Message-ID: <5DF8FDE8DFE8744388602480FDCC0E310346FE67@xch-nw-23.nw.nos.boeing.com> > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort > (any order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). > Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all > the RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the > file as an array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all > the memory. Does anyone know some other methods I could try? I've used the DBM DB_File (with DB_Tree) to sort large files. (lexical sorting by default but can be customized.). Suprisingly fast too. hth, -- Charles DeRykus From m3047 at inwa.net Fri Aug 27 15:31:26 2004 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Fri Aug 27 15:30:16 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Dan Ebert wrote: > > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any > order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). So sort the file: man sort From bri at ifokr.org Fri Aug 27 15:51:40 2004 From: bri at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch) Date: Fri Aug 27 15:51:46 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040827205140.GK17775@ifokr.org> > > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any > order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). > > Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the > RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as an > array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. Does > anyone know some other methods I could try? #!/bin/sh FILE=whatever split $FILE section. for file in section.* do sort $file > $file.sorted done sort -m section.*.sorted > sorted-version rm section.* -- Brian Hatch "Londo, do you know where you are?" Systems and "Either in Medlab, or in Hell. Security Engineer Either way, the decor needs work." http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ Every message PGP signed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20040827/9bcd3dbf/attachment.bin From mathin at mathin.com Fri Aug 27 16:00:18 2004 From: mathin at mathin.com (Dan Ebert) Date: Fri Aug 27 16:00:20 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file In-Reply-To: <20040827205140.GK17775@ifokr.org> Message-ID: I had thought of spliting the file, but I don't think this would work if a later section had lines that really should be at the top of the sort. SPLIT DATA: 12 14 16 13 34 54 21 10 would create a file: 12 13 14 16 10 21 34 54 which really isn't sorted. It looks like the UNIX sort command is working on the whole file though. I didn't know that command. Thanks to everyone who pointed it out to me. Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. - Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Brian Hatch wrote: > > > > > > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any > > order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). > > > > Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the > > RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as an > > array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. Does > > anyone know some other methods I could try? > > #!/bin/sh > FILE=whatever > > split $FILE section. > for file in section.* > do > sort $file > $file.sorted > done > sort -m section.*.sorted > sorted-version > > rm section.* > > > -- > Brian Hatch "Londo, do you know where you are?" > Systems and "Either in Medlab, or in Hell. > Security Engineer Either way, the decor needs work." > http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ > > Every message PGP signed > From david.dyck at fluke.com Fri Aug 27 16:09:45 2004 From: david.dyck at fluke.com (David Dyck) Date: Fri Aug 27 16:09:32 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 at 12:53 -0700, Dan Ebert wrote: > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any > order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). Take a look at the File::Sort module from CPAN NAME File::Sort - Sort a file or merge sort multiple files SYNOPSIS use File::Sort qw(sort_file); sort_file({ I => [qw(file_1 file_2)], o => 'file_new', k => '5.3,5.5rn', -t => '|' }); sort_file('file1', 'file1.sorted'); DESCRIPTION This module sorts text files by lines (or records). Comparisons are based on one or more sort keys extracted from each line of input, and are performed lexicographically. By default, if keys are not given, sort regards each input line as a single field. The sort is a merge sort. If you don't like that, feel free to change it. From KBuff at zetron.com Fri Aug 27 16:33:54 2004 From: KBuff at zetron.com (Kurt Buff) Date: Fri Aug 27 16:33:57 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file Message-ID: <054222519C2ED411A68E00508B603AC706534406@zetxch01.zetron.com> When you do the merge, you compare across the various files. If, for instance, you break it into 3 files a, b, c, you'll sort each file, take a line from a, compare it to the next line for b and c, and write the correct one to the result file. lather, rinse, repeat. -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Dan Ebert Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 14:00 Cc: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Sorting a big file I had thought of spliting the file, but I don't think this would work if a later section had lines that really should be at the top of the sort. SPLIT DATA: 12 14 16 13 34 54 21 10 would create a file: 12 13 14 16 10 21 34 54 which really isn't sorted. It looks like the UNIX sort command is working on the whole file though. I didn't know that command. Thanks to everyone who pointed it out to me. Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. - Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Brian Hatch wrote: > > > > > > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any > > order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). > > > > Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the > > RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as an > > array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. Does > > anyone know some other methods I could try? > > #!/bin/sh > FILE=whatever > > split $FILE section. > for file in section.* > do > sort $file > $file.sorted > done > sort -m section.*.sorted > sorted-version > > rm section.* > > > -- > Brian Hatch "Londo, do you know where you are?" > Systems and "Either in Medlab, or in Hell. > Security Engineer Either way, the decor needs work." > http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ > > Every message PGP signed > _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From jay at scherrer.com Fri Aug 27 23:37:33 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri Aug 27 23:37:42 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file In-Reply-To: <054222519C2ED411A68E00508B603AC706534406@zetxch01.zetron.com> References: <054222519C2ED411A68E00508B603AC706534406@zetxch01.zetron.com> Message-ID: <200408272137.34768.jay@scherrer.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 What would that look like if you threaded three files. jay On Friday 27 August 2004 02:33 pm, Kurt Buff wrote: > When you do the merge, you compare across the various files. > > If, for instance, you break it into 3 files a, b, c, you'll sort each file, > take a line from a, compare it to the next line for b and c, and write the > correct one to the result file. > > lather, rinse, repeat. > > -----Original Message----- > From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org > [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Dan Ebert > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 14:00 > Cc: spug-list@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: SPUG: Sorting a big file > > > > I had thought of spliting the file, but I don't think this would work > if a later section had lines that really should be at the top of the sort. > > SPLIT DATA: > 12 > 14 > 16 > 13 > > 34 > 54 > 21 > 10 > > would create a file: > > 12 > 13 > 14 > 16 > 10 > 21 > 34 > 54 > > which really isn't sorted. > > It looks like the UNIX sort command is working on the whole file though. > I didn't know that command. Thanks to everyone who pointed it out to me. > > Dan. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. > - Unknown > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Brian Hatch wrote: > > > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort > > > (any order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). > > > > > > Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the > > > RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as > > an > > > > array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. > > Does > > > > anyone know some other methods I could try? > > > > #!/bin/sh > > FILE=whatever > > > > split $FILE section. > > for file in section.* > > do > > sort $file > $file.sorted > > done > > sort -m section.*.sorted > sorted-version > > > > rm section.* > > > > > > -- > > Brian Hatch "Londo, do you know where you are?" > > Systems and "Either in Medlab, or in Hell. > > Security Engineer Either way, the decor needs work." > > http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ > > > > Every message PGP signed > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBMAwN7+UFWg+1k3YRAiJvAJ9k14AHrSATl2cTKsMpnqMe653lKgCfbjUD QCWoWUYO+aNLcPDbdnZzHSg= =T7mN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tallpeak at hotmail.com Fri Aug 27 16:52:21 2004 From: tallpeak at hotmail.com (Aaron W. West) Date: Sat Aug 28 01:04:44 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file References: <054222519C2ED411A68E00508B603AC706534406@zetxch01.zetron.com> Message-ID: At my prior workplace (I won't mention the name, but the stock symbol is AMZN), it was part of a FAQ that GNU sort is more efficient than Perl's sort, so should be used instead for large files. Of course, it's already been mentioned, so I'm just replying to add: List::SkipList ... is recommended for medium-sized sorting tasks. Very close to O(n) $ perl sklist.pl n= 15 elapsed: 0.001, factor= 0.00 n= 62 elapsed: 0.001, factor= 1.00 n= 250 elapsed: 0.006, factor= 6.00 n= 1000 elapsed: 0.028, factor= 4.67 n= 4000 elapsed: 0.124, factor= 4.43 n= 16000 elapsed: 0.628, factor= 5.06 n= 64000 elapsed: 2.886, factor= 4.60 n=256000 elapsed: 11.859, factor= 4.11 See http://search.cpan.org/~rrwo/ --> http://search.cpan.org/~rrwo/List-SkipList-0.73_01/ 02 Aug 2004 ** DEVELOPER RELEASE ** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt Buff" To: "'Dan Ebert'" Cc: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: RE: SPUG: Sorting a big file When you do the merge, you compare across the various files. If, for instance, you break it into 3 files a, b, c, you'll sort each file, take a line from a, compare it to the next line for b and c, and write the correct one to the result file. lather, rinse, repeat. -----Original Message----- From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Dan Ebert Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 14:00 Cc: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Sorting a big file I had thought of spliting the file, but I don't think this would work if a later section had lines that really should be at the top of the sort. SPLIT DATA: 12 14 16 13 34 54 21 10 would create a file: 12 13 14 16 10 21 34 54 which really isn't sorted. It looks like the UNIX sort command is working on the whole file though. I didn't know that command. Thanks to everyone who pointed it out to me. Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. - Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Brian Hatch wrote: > > > > > > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort (any > > order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). > > > > Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the > > RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as an > > array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. Does > > anyone know some other methods I could try? > > #!/bin/sh > FILE=whatever > > split $FILE section. > for file in section.* > do > sort $file > $file.sorted > done > sort -m section.*.sorted > sorted-version > > rm section.* > > > -- > Brian Hatch "Londo, do you know where you are?" > Systems and "Either in Medlab, or in Hell. > Security Engineer Either way, the decor needs work." > http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ > > Every message PGP signed > _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org _____________________________________________________________ Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org From KBuff at zetron.com Sat Aug 28 12:03:10 2004 From: KBuff at zetron.com (Kurt Buff) Date: Sat Aug 28 12:03:14 2004 Subject: SPUG: Sorting a big file Message-ID: <054222519C2ED411A68E00508B603AC70653440F@zetxch01.zetron.com> Unknown to me - I've done this sort of thing a long time ago, and not in perl... -----Original Message----- From: Jay Scherrer [mailto:jay@scherrer.com] Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 21:38 To: Kurt Buff; 'Dan Ebert' Cc: spug-list@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Sorting a big file -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 What would that look like if you threaded three files. jay On Friday 27 August 2004 02:33 pm, Kurt Buff wrote: > When you do the merge, you compare across the various files. > > If, for instance, you break it into 3 files a, b, c, you'll sort each file, > take a line from a, compare it to the next line for b and c, and write the > correct one to the result file. > > lather, rinse, repeat. > > -----Original Message----- > From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org > [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]On Behalf Of Dan Ebert > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 14:00 > Cc: spug-list@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: SPUG: Sorting a big file > > > > I had thought of spliting the file, but I don't think this would work > if a later section had lines that really should be at the top of the sort. > > SPLIT DATA: > 12 > 14 > 16 > 13 > > 34 > 54 > 21 > 10 > > would create a file: > > 12 > 13 > 14 > 16 > 10 > 21 > 34 > 54 > > which really isn't sorted. > > It looks like the UNIX sort command is working on the whole file though. > I didn't know that command. Thanks to everyone who pointed it out to me. > > Dan. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. > - Unknown > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Brian Hatch wrote: > > > I have a large file (~1 million lines, ~142MB) which I need to sort > > > (any order is fine, just so the lines are in a repeatable order). > > > > > > Just using perl's 'sort' on the file read into an array eats up all the > > > RAM and swap on my box and crashes. I'm also trying tying the file as > > an > > > > array, but it looks like that is also going to use up all the memory. > > Does > > > > anyone know some other methods I could try? > > > > #!/bin/sh > > FILE=whatever > > > > split $FILE section. > > for file in section.* > > do > > sort $file > $file.sorted > > done > > sort -m section.*.sorted > sorted-version > > > > rm section.* > > > > > > -- > > Brian Hatch "Londo, do you know where you are?" > > Systems and "Either in Medlab, or in Hell. > > Security Engineer Either way, the decor needs work." > > http://www.ifokr.org/bri/ > > > > Every message PGP signed > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org http://spugwiki.perlocity.org > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, Location Unknown > WEB PAGE: http://www.seattleperl.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBMAwN7+UFWg+1k3YRAiJvAJ9k14AHrSATl2cTKsMpnqMe653lKgCfbjUD QCWoWUYO+aNLcPDbdnZzHSg= =T7mN -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----