SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site

[Brian Ingerson]

On 14/06/03 20:46 -0700, Michael R. Wolf wrote:
> SPUG-list-owner <tim at consultix-inc.com> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 12:42:16PM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote:
> >> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
> >> 
> >> > As is always the case with Ingy's productions, the software
> >> > is way cool!
> >> 
> >> And how. I've got a couple internal Kwiki's already set up (I also have
> >> Debian woody packages built if anyone is interested). It's a sweet package
> >> and the sky's the limit how where it can go from here.
> >> 
> >>   http://www.kwiki.org/
> >> -- 
> >> Andrew B. Sweger 
> >
> > Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes?
> 
> [[Preface -- I know this is a tangent to the original post. Please
> bear with me and reply to my points, not my divergence from the
> original point.]]
> 
> Call me old fashioned, but I have a *strong* preference for
> discussions to continue via email or news. "Click, drag, move, mouse"
> is significantly more annoying to me than using my home-key-based
> news/email environment. A mouse is an effecient beginning input
> device, but an inefficient advanced tool. (Don't believe it? Disable
> your keyboard, but enable a window with a keyboard image in it, then
> see how well you compose messages with a mouse.)

Pure FUD.

>     WYSIWYG is a step backwards. Human labor is used to do that which the
>     computer can do better.
>       -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum

Interesting quote, but what in the heck does WYSIWYG editing have to do
with mouse-based GUI???

"If something sucks, fix it."
  -- Brian Ingerson

1) Use a text based browser.
2) I plan on implementing hot keys for wiki navigation, so that mouse
   usage can be minimal.
3) Wiki is not a replacement for mailing lists. They actually often work
   quite complimentary. If your ML has an archive, you can link wiki
   pages to mail threads too.
4) Don't knock until you've tried it.

> I get that Wiki is an attempt at simple WYSIWYG, but it cuts off a
> whole lineage of news reading tools and requires folks to navigate
> themselves to the news rather than having the news come to them. In
> that respect, Wiki is counter to much of the culture of news reading.
> I get a newspaper delivered to my door, despite having a public
> library 2 blocks away. Call me wasteful! It just fits in with my
> routine, and I like my services to serve me, not me to cater to them.

Sure. But you don't lobby against the usage of libraries, do you?

> I think Wiki may be good for other things, however. But don't reinvent
> the flat tire (a recognition that a wheel is many iterations later)
> just to try a new technology. Use existing technology to compose,
> deliver, and view the content. The energy you save could be invested
> in the creativity of creating *content* not redeveloping *structure*.
> 
> So, I'd prefer that we do *nog* explore Wiki for a *replacement* of
> this discussion. But if Wiki could be a *mirror* of this by using a
> SMTP or NNTP gateway, that would be better -- Add folks who perfer
> Wiki, without cutting off folks who don't. (That seems to be how many
> of the perl.org groups are. I read 'em with NNTP, but many folks read
> them with HTTP.)
> 
> End rant,
> Michael Wolf
> 
> P.S. I know my reply wasn't in direct response to the original post.
> It just triggered somethin for me. For instance, I do *NOT* read the
> newly created MOSS Wiki, but I *do* read email from the list. Call me
> lazy, but it cuts me out from a portion of what's going on in that
> community. Perhaps the net gain is better than the net loss, a
> decision all communities or groups must make, but at some basic level,
> I don't get Wiki. It seems to require that all posters be mini
> WYSIWYG-webmasters-in-training and all that readers must continually
> re-read content to discover what's changed. All seems like a waste of
> human time for what computers do better.
> 
> P.P.S. I guess I've asked for it indirectly, so I'll ask dirctly --
> Could someone clue me in on why Wiki is better than listserv, email
> lists, news, SMTP, and NNTP, all of which are directed to my favorite,
> familiar news/email readers (which I won't share the name of, because
> it's not relevant to my argument -- lots of folks could substitute
> their favorite news/email reader and make the same point).

Wiki is a way to refactor ideas over time. You can add to someone else's
idea, but just as important, you can delete parts that are no longer
relevant. It's a way for a community to collaboratively work through an
issue and refine the findings to high signal, low noise.

Mailing lists are important for duking it out, but in order for a casual
reader to grok a thread, they need to read the whole thing. Wiki readers
can just get right to the meat of a topic.

I'm considering adding a feature to kwiki that will email recent changes
to those who are interested. So you really can have the best of all
worlds.

Why don't you try participating in wiki culture for a while, before
deciding whether you'd like it or not. I think you'll be surprised what
a nice addition it is to SPUG collaboration.

Cheers, Brian

> An inquiring (underinformed) mind wants to know....
> 
> Yes, I have to admit my ignorance in order to satisfy my curiosity!
> 
> -- 
> Michael R. Wolf
>     All mammals learn by playing!
>         MichaelRunningWolf at att.net
> 
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