From andrew at sweger.net  Tue Jul  1 00:11:02 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:No wireless access at SPUG this week
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0306302208510.14114-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

Remember, I will *not* have the wireless stuff set up for SPUG this
Wednesday night with Damian. And there's no obvious wireless at Safeco
either (I checked).

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul  1 12:38:44 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF?
In-Reply-To: <20030630085938.B86223@brighton.offwhite.net>
References: <20030630085938.B86223@brighton.offwhite.net>
Message-ID: <20030701103844.A1289@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 08:59:38AM -0500, Jeff Almeida wrote:
> Tim was talking about this solution I sent him Saturday
> morning, but I don't think I actually sent it to the list, so
> here goes:

Jeff,

My slightly altered version of your program (included below)
works fine for viewing the PDFs it creates on Linux, using
ghostview (gv 3.5.8) and Acrobat Reader 5.0.  However, I can't
view the files it creates at all on my Windows 98 box, using Adobe
Acrobat 5.0 (the latest and greatest), or Acrobat Reader 3
(which is the entire collection of readers I've got there).
When I try to open the files with Reader, I get "The file
was damaged but is being repaired", followed by "there was an
error opening this document.  Could not repair file."

The Acrobat program itself gives a similar error, with a
slightly different wording.

I thought I'd try converting the PDFs to PS on Linux, and
recreate them at PDF version 1.2 (using ps2pdf12) to see
if that would make them readable (they're being created at
level 1.4 now), but even pdf2ps complains about these files:

Error: /ioerror in --.outpage-- <bunch of stack trace junk>
Unrecoverable error, exit code 1.

I don't see any indication of how to tweak the document
properties in the PDF::API2 man page, and am wondering if the
problem is just that it creates slightly malformed 1.4 output,
but perhaps the output at lower levels would be correct.

You can download one of my PDFs for testing at
teachmeperl.com/YAPC.03/Shell::POSIX::Select/select_mono.pdf

Any ideas?  Here's the script

#! /usr/bin/perl -w

use PDF::API2;
my $pdf = PDF::API2->new(-fit=>1);

( $img_x, $img_y ) = ( 717, 538 );
( $x, $y ) = ( $img_x + 72, $img_y + 18);

$pdf->mediabox($x,$y) ;

my ($img,$llx,$lly,$urx,$ury) = qw( 36 36  ) ;

foreach (@ARGV) {
	my ($img) = $pdf->image_jpeg($_);
	my ($page) = $pdf->page();
	my ($gfx) = $page->gfx();
	$gfx->image($img,$llx,$lly,$urx,$ury);
}
my ($output) = $pdf->stringify();
print "$output";

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul  1 17:36:08 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
Message-ID: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>

SPUGsters,

Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's beforehand 
should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
inspired to join in.

-Tim

         July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting
     -----------------------------------------------------
     Title: "Small Miracles"
   Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway
	   Assoc. Prof. Monash U., Perl 6 Design Team,
	   OOP Author, Perl Modulator Extraordinaire, etc.

      Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm
  Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St.

      Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public.
      Info: http://seattleperl.org/

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's
latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the
Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series. 
As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities
---------------------------------
The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th
St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco
building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is
527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list
by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time
(5:30-5:45pm is recommended).

Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore
counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the
speaker's table.

======================================================
| Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim@timmaher.org       |
| SPUG Founder & Leader       spug@seattleperl.org   |
| Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.org    |
======================================================
_____________________________________________________________
Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul  1 17:47:43 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030701154743.A2311@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 03:36:08PM -0700, Tim Maher wrote:

Please forward this announcement to other lists that you think
might be interested (except the linux-list, which I've already
covered).

-Tim

> SPUGsters,
> 
> Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's beforehand 
> should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
> RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
> inspired to join in.
> 
> -Tim
> 
>          July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting
>      -----------------------------------------------------
>      Title: "Small Miracles"
>    Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway
> 	   Assoc. Prof. Monash U., Perl 6 Design Team,
> 	   OOP Author, Perl Modulator Extraordinaire, etc.
> 
>       Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm
>   Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St.
> 
>       Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public.
>       Info: http://seattleperl.org/
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's
> latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the
> Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series. 
> As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss!
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities
> ---------------------------------
> The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th
> St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco
> building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is
> 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list
> by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time
> (5:30-5:45pm is recommended).
> 
> Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore
> counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the
> speaker's table.
> 
> ======================================================
> | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim@timmaher.org       |
> | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug@seattleperl.org   |
> | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.org    |
> ======================================================
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Tim
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
> | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
> | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
> *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
> |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com  Tue Jul  1 17:49:08 2003
From: christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com (Cantrall, Christopher W)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
Message-ID: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87047A@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com>

I'll be driving to Cedar's from Everett, so anyone who wants to carool from the northern reaches can bum a ride: expected arrival time 5:30.  Room for 3.5 others.  (That middle seat in the back of my Explorer counts for half a person.)

____________________________________________
Chris Cantrall
Structural Engineer, 767 Fuselage, Boeing
Christopher.W.Cantrall@Boeing.com
chris@cantrall.org
http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node=Louis_Wu



> -----Original Message-----
> From: SPUG-list-owner [mailto:tim@consultix-inc.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:36 PM
> To: spug-list@pm.org
> Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
> 
> 
> SPUGsters,
> 
> Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's 
> beforehand 
> should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
> RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
> inspired to join in.
> 
> -Tim
> 
>          July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting
>      -----------------------------------------------------
>      Title: "Small Miracles"
>    Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway
> 	   Assoc. Prof. Monash U., Perl 6 Design Team,
> 	   OOP Author, Perl Modulator Extraordinaire, etc.
> 
>       Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm
>   Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St.
> 
>       Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public.
>       Info: http://seattleperl.org/
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's
> latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the
> Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series. 
> As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss!
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities
> ---------------------------------
> The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th
> St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco
> building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is
> 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list
> by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time
> (5:30-5:45pm is recommended).
> 
> Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore
> counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the
> speaker's table.
> 
> ======================================================
> | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim@timmaher.org       |
> | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug@seattleperl.org   |
> | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.org    |
> ======================================================
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Tim
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
> | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
> | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
> *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
> |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> 

From jmates at sial.org  Tue Jul  1 18:13:30 2003
From: jmates at sial.org (Jeremy Mates)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Re: Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030701231330.GN93104@darkness.sial.org>

* SPUG-list-owner <tim@consultix-inc.com>
> Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's
> beforehand should let me know so I can reserve accordingly. Please
> post your RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and
> become inspired to join in.

RSVPing.

From wyllie at dilex.net  Tue Jul  1 18:34:44 2003
From: wyllie at dilex.net (Andrew Wyllie)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030701233444.GA18582@sharkey.dilex.net>

RSVPing - see you at Cedars.

Andrew


On Tue, 01 Jul 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote:

> SPUGsters,
> 
> Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's beforehand 
> should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
> RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
> inspired to join in.
> 
> -Tim
> 
>          July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting
>      -----------------------------------------------------
>      Title: "Small Miracles"
>    Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway
> 	   Assoc. Prof. Monash U., Perl 6 Design Team,
> 	   OOP Author, Perl Modulator Extraordinaire, etc.
> 
>       Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm
>   Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St.
> 
>       Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public.
>       Info: http://seattleperl.org/
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's
> latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the
> Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series. 
> As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss!
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities
> ---------------------------------
> The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th
> St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco
> building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is
> 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list
> by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time
> (5:30-5:45pm is recommended).
> 
> Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore
> counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the
> speaker's table.
> 
> ======================================================
> | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim@timmaher.org       |
> | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug@seattleperl.org   |
> | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.org    |
> ======================================================
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Tim
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
> | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
> | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
> *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
> |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 

From cmeyer at helvella.org  Tue Jul  1 18:48:26 2003
From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>; from tim@consultix-inc.com on Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 03:36:08PM -0700
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030701164826.A8844@hobart.helvella.org>

RSVP dinner.

-Colin.

From jaygray at scn.org  Tue Jul  1 19:12:08 2003
From: jaygray at scn.org (Jay Gray)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Re: Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701231330.GN93104@darkness.sial.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030701170950.20930A-100000@scn>

Count me in, Tim.

Jay Gray


On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Jeremy Mates wrote:

> * SPUG-list-owner <tim@consultix-inc.com>
> > Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> > night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's
> > beforehand should let me know so I can reserve accordingly. Please
> > post your RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and
> > become inspired to join in.
> 
> RSVPing.
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> 


From schieb at centurytel.net  Tue Jul  1 19:18:09 2003
From: schieb at centurytel.net (Islandman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030701233444.GA18582@sharkey.dilex.net>
Message-ID: <3F0224C1.A8C34D12@centurytel.net>

Andrew Wyllie wrote:
> 
> RSVPing - see you at Cedars.
> 
> Andrew

I'm planning on dinner at Cedars.

-Brian 

> 
> On Tue, 01 Jul 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
> 
> > SPUGsters,
> >
> > Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> > night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's beforehand
> > should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
> > RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
> > inspired to join in.
> >
> > -Tim
> >
> >          July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting
> >      -----------------------------------------------------
> >      Title: "Small Miracles"
> >    Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway
> >          Assoc. Prof. Monash U., Perl 6 Design Team,
> >          OOP Author, Perl Modulator Extraordinaire, etc.
> >
> >       Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm
> >   Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St.
> >
> >       Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public.
> >       Info: http://seattleperl.org/
> >
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> >
> > We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's
> > latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the
> > Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series.
> > As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss!
> >
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> >
> > Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities
> > ---------------------------------
> > The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th
> > St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco
> > building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is
> > 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list
> > by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time
> > (5:30-5:45pm is recommended).
> >
> > Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore
> > counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the
> > speaker's table.
> >
> > ======================================================
> > | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim@timmaher.org       |
> > | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug@seattleperl.org   |
> > | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.org    |
> > ======================================================
> > _____________________________________________________________
> > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> >
> > --
> >
> > -Tim
> > *------------------------------------------------------------*
> > | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
> > | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
> > | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
> > *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
> > |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
> > *------------------------------------------------------------*
> > _____________________________________________________________
> > Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> > POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> > ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> > MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> > WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> >
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org

From bill at celestial.com  Tue Jul  1 19:19:25 2003
From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Re: Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030701170950.20930A-100000@scn>; from jaygray@scn.org on Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 05:12:08PM -0700
References: <20030701231330.GN93104@darkness.sial.org> <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030701170950.20930A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20030701171925.A529@barryg.mi.celestial.com>

Anybody interested in car-pooling over from the east side?  I could meet
people at the Mercer Island Park and Ride.

Bill
--
INTERNET:   bill@Celestial.COM  Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP:               camco!bill  PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX:            (206) 232-9186  Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/

In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because
I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Jew.  Then they came for the trade unionists, and I
didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.  Then they came for the
Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.  Then they came
for me -- and by that time no one was left to speak up.
		-- Pastor Martin Niemoller

From spud at spudzeppelin.com  Tue Jul  1 22:04:09 2003
From: spud at spudzeppelin.com (Jeff Almeida)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF?
In-Reply-To: <20030701103844.A1289@timji.consultix-inc.com>; from tim@consultix-inc.com on Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 10:38:44AM -0700
References: <20030630085938.B86223@brighton.offwhite.net> <20030701103844.A1289@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030701220409.A69181@brighton.offwhite.net>

Also Sprach SPUG-list-owner:
>My slightly altered version of your program (included below)
>works fine for viewing the PDFs it creates on Linux, using
>ghostview (gv 3.5.8) and Acrobat Reader 5.0.  However, I can't
>view the files it creates at all on my Windows 98 box, using Adobe
>Acrobat 5.0 (the latest and greatest), or Acrobat Reader 3
>(which is the entire collection of readers I've got there).
>When I try to open the files with Reader, I get "The file
>was damaged but is being repaired", followed by "there was an
>error opening this document.  Could not repair file."
>
>The Acrobat program itself gives a similar error, with a
>slightly different wording.
>
>I thought I'd try converting the PDFs to PS on Linux, and
>recreate them at PDF version 1.2 (using ps2pdf12) to see
>if that would make them readable (they're being created at
>level 1.4 now), but even pdf2ps complains about these files:
>
>Error: /ioerror in --.outpage-- <bunch of stack trace junk>
>Unrecoverable error, exit code 1.
>
>I don't see any indication of how to tweak the document
>properties in the PDF::API2 man page, and am wondering if the
>problem is just that it creates slightly malformed 1.4 output,
>but perhaps the output at lower levels would be correct.
>
>You can download one of my PDFs for testing at
>teachmeperl.com/YAPC.03/Shell::POSIX::Select/select_mono.pdf
>
>Any ideas?  Here's the script

The funky cross-platform behavior causes improper termination (maybe it 
really really wants \r\n or something like that) to leap to mind, but I've 
never had that problem with any of the PDF::API2 stuff I've done before.  
I have other ideas I've annotated below.

>#! /usr/bin/perl -w
>
>use PDF::API2;
>my $pdf = PDF::API2->new(-fit=>1);
>
>( $img_x, $img_y ) = ( 717, 538 );
>( $x, $y ) = ( $img_x + 72, $img_y + 18);
>
>$pdf->mediabox($x,$y) ;

That's kinda a nonstandard size for a global mediabox, and might cause 
problems with some viewers..?

>my ($img,$llx,$lly,$urx,$ury) = qw( 36 36  ) ;

This line makes me cringe, especially when combined with the results 
below...

>foreach (@ARGV) {
>	my ($img) = $pdf->image_jpeg($_);
>	my ($page) = $pdf->page();
>	my ($gfx) = $page->gfx();

Good so far, instantiating an image, a page, and a graphics context for 
putting the image on the page...

>	$gfx->image($img,$llx,$lly,$urx,$ury);

Right now, though, the above call is trying to set the geometry for the 
image on the page with three of the four coordinates undefined.  What you 
probably wanted was a combination of

my ($llx,$lly) = qw (36 36); #above, replacing the controversial line early

and $gfx->image($img,$llx,$lly); #in place of your existing call

Which will put the image a half-inch up and in from the lower right hand 
corner of the global mediabox (which the way you've set it, will actually 
cause the image to spill an eighth of an inch off the top) and not attempt 
to force the image size to conform.

>}
>my ($output) = $pdf->stringify();
>print "$output";


-- 

************************************************************
Jeff D. "Spud (Zeppelin)" Almeida
Little Elm, TX
spud@spudzeppelin.com

From perl at pryan.org  Tue Jul  1 22:40:17 2003
From: perl at pryan.org (Patrick Ryan)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030702034016.GG15918@stingray.velvet>

RSVP for 5:30 at Cedar's.

- Patrick

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul  1 23:18:13 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF?
In-Reply-To: <20030701220409.A69181@brighton.offwhite.net>
References: <20030630085938.B86223@brighton.offwhite.net> <20030701103844.A1289@timji.consultix-inc.com> <20030701220409.A69181@brighton.offwhite.net>
Message-ID: <20030701211813.A3377@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 10:04:09PM -0500, Jeff Almeida wrote:
> 
> >#! /usr/bin/perl -w
> >
> >use PDF::API2;
> >my $pdf = PDF::API2->new(-fit=>1);
> >
> >( $img_x, $img_y ) = ( 717, 538 );
> >( $x, $y ) = ( $img_x + 72, $img_y + 18);
> >
> >$pdf->mediabox($x,$y) ;
> 
> That's kinda a nonstandard size for a global mediabox, and might cause 
> problems with some viewers..?

Works fine with acroread and gv on Linux, and IMHO the whole idea
of custom sizes is to enjoy being non-standard!  But I think the
real problem is below, as you pointed out.
 
> >my ($img,$llx,$lly,$urx,$ury) = qw( 36 36  ) ;

Of course, now that I look at that line, it looks *atrocious*;
I can only speculate that I got interrupted by a phone call
or email in the middle of typing it, and then grew accustomed
to its appearance and never doubted it later on, especially
because everything was working fine (on Linux anyway).
Know what I mean? 8-}

> This line makes me cringe, especially when combined with the results 
> below...

I cringe with you . . .
 
> >foreach (@ARGV) {
> >	my ($img) = $pdf->image_jpeg($_);
> >	my ($page) = $pdf->page();
> >	my ($gfx) = $page->gfx();
> 
> Good so far, instantiating an image, a page, and a graphics context for 
> putting the image on the page...
> 
> >	$gfx->image($img,$llx,$lly,$urx,$ury);
> 
> Right now, though, the above call is trying to set the geometry for the 
> image on the page with three of the four coordinates undefined.  What you 
> probably wanted was a combination of
> 
> my ($llx,$lly) = qw (36 36); #above, replacing the controversial line early
> 
> and $gfx->image($img,$llx,$lly); #in place of your existing call

Again, I plead "codus interruptus",  or perhaps temporary insanity.
In any case, thanks for pointing out what I didn't see!  I'll check
out your suggestions.
 
> Which will put the image a half-inch up and in from the lower right hand 
> corner of the global mediabox (which the way you've set it, will actually 
> cause the image to spill an eighth of an inch off the top) and not attempt 
> to force the image size to conform.
> 
> ************************************************************
> Jeff D. "Spud (Zeppelin)" Almeida
> Little Elm, TX
> spud@spudzeppelin.com

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From andrew at sweger.net  Tue Jul  1 23:45:09 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307012144000.14114-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

RSVP'ing for Cedars tomorrow at 5:30

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.


From pudge at pobox.com  Tue Jul  1 23:48:04 2003
From: pudge at pobox.com (Chris Nandor)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Re: Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200307020016.h620G9b22909@mail.pm.org>
References: <200307020016.h620G9b22909@mail.pm.org>
Message-ID: <p06001801bb2814318df2@[10.0.1.177]>

I plan on attending dinner at Cedar's, around 5:30 p.m.

-- 
Chris Nandor                      pudge@pobox.com    http://pudge.net/
Open Source Development Network    pudge@osdn.com     http://osdn.com/

From aaronlbecker at attbi.com  Wed Jul  2 00:02:27 2003
From: aaronlbecker at attbi.com (Aaron Becker)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <200307012201.11741.aaronlbecker@attbi.com>

RSVP for Cedars at 5:30

Aaron Becker


On Tuesday 01 July 2003 3:36 pm, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
> SPUGsters,
>
> Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's beforehand
> should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
> RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
> inspired to join in.
>
> -Tim
>
>          July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting
>      -----------------------------------------------------
>      Title: "Small Miracles"
>    Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway
> 	   Assoc. Prof. Monash U., Perl 6 Design Team,
> 	   OOP Author, Perl Modulator Extraordinaire, etc.
>
>       Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm
>   Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St.
>
>       Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public.
>       Info: http://seattleperl.org/
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's
> latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the
> Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series.
> As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss!
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities
> ---------------------------------
> The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th
> St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco
> building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is
> 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list
> by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time
> (5:30-5:45pm is recommended).
>
> Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore
> counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the
> speaker's table.
>
> ======================================================
>
> | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim@timmaher.org       |
> | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug@seattleperl.org   |
> | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.org    |
>
> ======================================================
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----


From scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com  Wed Jul  2 10:33:46 2003
From: scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Re: Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com> 
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com> 
Message-ID: <20030702153501.E1C5D1DD7@sabami.seaslug.org>

I think I'll be there, but on the later side of the recommended arrival time
(probably 5:45-6:00...I've currently got a 5-5:30 meeting scheduled at work).

Scott

SPUG-list-owner <tim@consultix-inc.com> wrote:

> SPUGsters,
> 
> Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's beforehand 
> should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
> RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
> inspired to join in.
> 
> -Tim
> 
>          July 2003 Seattle Perl Users Group Meeting
>      -----------------------------------------------------
>      Title: "Small Miracles"
>    Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway
> 	   Assoc. Prof. Monash U., Perl 6 Design Team,
> 	   OOP Author, Perl Modulator Extraordinaire, etc.
> 
>       Time: Wednesday, July 2, 2003 7-9pm
>   Location: SAFECO bldg, Brooklyn St. and NE 45th St.
> 
>       Cost: Admission is free and open to the general public.
>       Info: http://seattleperl.org/
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> We'll be privileged to be the 2nd group on the planet to hear Damian's
> latest blockbuster talk, in the "Quantum Superpositions", "Life, the
> Universe, and Everything", and "Time::Space::Continuum" series. 
> As usual, this will be a meeting you won't want to miss!
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> Pre- and Post- Meeting Activities
> ---------------------------------
> The pre-meeting dinner will be at the Cedars restaurant, at 50th
> St. and Brooklyn, in the University District, near the Safeco
> building where the meeting will take place. The phone number is
> 527-5247. If you're planning to be there, please RSVP to the list
> by 2pm on the meeting day with your expected arrival time
> (5:30-5:45pm is recommended).
> 
> Only those who comply with the RSVP policy (and are therefore
> counted in the seating reservation) will be welcomed at the
> speaker's table.
> 
> ======================================================
> | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim@timmaher.org       |
> | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug@seattleperl.org   |
> | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.org    |
> ======================================================
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Tim
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
> | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
> | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
> *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
> |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 

Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jul  2 12:42:30 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Dinner RSVPs
Message-ID: <20030702104230.A5868@timji.consultix-inc.com>

SPUGsters,

In order to "save cycles" for other more pressing activities,
I haven't been confirming RSVPs individually, but here's the list
of what I've got so far (except for people who aren't 100% sure
they'll show up):

Damian Conway
Tim Maher
Michael Wolf
Jeremy Mates
Andrew Wyllie
Colin Meyer
Jay Gray
Brian Schieb
Dan Sabath
Patrick Ryan
Aaron Becker
Chris Nandor (welcome to the NorthWest, pudge!)
Andy Sweger

There are still a few tables left in the restaurant that we
haven't yet filled, so if anyone else wants to join in,
let us know by posting your Name and Arrival Time to the list.

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com  Wed Jul  2 12:56:09 2003
From: christopher.w.cantrall at boeing.com (Cantrall, Christopher W)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Dinner RSVPs
Message-ID: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87047B@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com>

The enclosed message was my less than clear attempt to RSVP.

Ahem
                  "RSVPing".  


Does that make this message an "RSVPong"?  

My carpool offer still stands.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cantrall, Christopher W 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:49 PM
> To: SPUG-list-owner; spug-list@pm.org
> Subject: RE: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
> 
> 
> I'll be driving to Cedar's from Everett, so anyone who wants 
> to carool from the northern reaches can bum a ride: expected 
> arrival time 5:30.  Room for 3.5 others.  (That middle seat 
> in the back of my Explorer counts for half a person.)
> 
> ____________________________________________
> Chris Cantrall
> Structural Engineer, 767 Fuselage, Boeing
> Christopher.W.Cantrall@Boeing.com
> chris@cantrall.org
> http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node=Louis_Wu


<snip>

> -----The Original, Original Message-----
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SPUG-list-owner [mailto:tim@consultix-inc.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 10:43 AM
> To: spug-list@pm.org
> Subject: SPUG:Dinner RSVPs
> 
> 
> SPUGsters,
> 
> In order to "save cycles" for other more pressing activities,
> I haven't been confirming RSVPs individually, but here's the list
> of what I've got so far (except for people who aren't 100% sure
> they'll show up):
> 
> Damian Conway
> Tim Maher
> Michael Wolf
> Jeremy Mates
> Andrew Wyllie
> Colin Meyer
> Jay Gray
> Brian Schieb
> Dan Sabath
> Patrick Ryan
> Aaron Becker
> Chris Nandor (welcome to the NorthWest, pudge!)
> Andy Sweger
> 
> There are still a few tables left in the restaurant that we
> haven't yet filled, so if anyone else wants to join in,
> let us know by posting your Name and Arrival Time to the list.
> 
> -Tim

From bill at celestial.com  Wed Jul  2 13:09:08 2003
From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Dinner RSVPs
In-Reply-To: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87047B@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com>; from christopher.w.cantrall@boeing.com on Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 10:56:09AM -0700
References: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87047B@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <20030702110908.A29359@barryg.mi.celestial.com>

On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 10:56:09AM -0700, Cantrall, Christopher W wrote:
>The enclosed message was my less than clear attempt to RSVP.
>
>Ahem
>                  "RSVPing".  
..
>Does that make this message an "RSVPong"?  

Groan!

>My carpool offer still stands.

As does mine if anybody's coming across I-90 from the east side.

Bill
--
INTERNET:   bill@Celestial.COM  Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP:               camco!bill  PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX:            (206) 232-9186  Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/

``Lord, the money we do spend on Government and it's not one bit better
than the government we got for one third the money twenty years ago.''
    Will Rogers

From spug at ifokr.org  Wed Jul  2 13:12:21 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Dinner RSVPs
In-Reply-To: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87047B@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87047B@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <20030702181221.GD20893@ifokr.org>



> Ahem
>                   "RSVPing".  
> 
> 
> Does that make this message an "RSVPong"?  

Perhaps an RSVP ECHO REPLY for us network folks.

--
Brian Hatch                  "M'Lord, I have a plan!"
   Systems and               "Yes, Percy, but it's a stupid
   Security Engineer          plan, let's face it."
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/

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From asimjalis at acm.org  Wed Jul  2 13:29:12 2003
From: asimjalis at acm.org (Asim Jalis)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200307012201.11741.aaronlbecker@attbi.com>
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com> <200307012201.11741.aaronlbecker@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030702182912.GA17027@wokkil.pair.com>

Tim: RSVP for Cedars at 5:30 PM.

I will be leaving work at 4:30 PM from the Overlake, Redmond,
area. If anyone is interested in carpooling let me know. We can
meet at the Overlake Fred Meyer.

Asim

From adamm at wazamatta.com  Wed Jul  2 13:40:32 2003
From: adamm at wazamatta.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Tomorrow's Damianiacal Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030701153608.B2197@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <3F032720.6050903@wazamatta.com>

Would anyone be driving from or up through the Renton area that I could 
carpool with, for dinner & meeting or just the meeting? I'd love to 
attend but I am unable to drive myself.

SPUG-list-owner wrote:
> SPUGsters,
> 
> Just a reminder that "The Damian" will be entertaining us tomorrow
> night, and anybody desiring to join us for dinner at Cedar's beforehand 
> should let me know so I can reserve accordingly.  Please post your
> RSVPs *to the list*, so the others can see who's coming, and become
> inspired to join in.
[...]

-- 
Adam Monsen


From jmates at sial.org  Wed Jul  2 13:48:46 2003
From: jmates at sial.org (Jeremy Mates)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Re: Dinner RSVPs
In-Reply-To: <20030702181221.GD20893@ifokr.org>
References: <272347721C06184E98E39C40C9A4ED6D87047B@xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20030702181221.GD20893@ifokr.org>
Message-ID: <20030702184846.GP93104@darkness.sial.org>

* Brian Hatch <spug@ifokr.org>
> Perhaps an RSVP ECHO REPLY for us network folks.

Never looked at RSVP, but it does exist...

$ grep rsvp /etc/protocols 
rsvp    46      RSVP            # Resource ReSerVation Protocol

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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jul  2 15:31:04 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Final (so far) RSVP list
Message-ID: <20030702133104.B6433@timji.consultix-inc.com>

SPUGsters,

Those who responded to the request for dinner RSVPs by
saying "I'm driving, and looking for riders" have not been
counted, unless they specifically mentioned dining with us,
because AFAIK, those folks are eating elsewhere and just
attending the meeting, not the dinner.

If you're not on the dinner list below, and want to be,
let me know. Especially if you're female, because we're
all males so far 8-{

Damian Conway
Tim Maher
Michael Wolf
Jeremy Mates
Andrew Wyllie
Colin Meyer
Jay Gray
Brian Schieb
Dan Sabath
Patrick Ryan
Aaron Becker
Chris Nandor (welcome to the NorthWest, pudge!)
Andy Sweger
Scott Blachowicz (maybe)
Chris Cantrell Cantrell Cantrell Cantrell
Asim Jalis
C.J. Collier
Bill Campbell
Ben Burnett (by 6pm)

There are still a few tables in the restaurant that we
haven't yet filled, so if anyone else wants to join in,
let us know by posting your Name and Arrival Time to the list.

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*
_____________________________________________________________
Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From douglas at slugstone.net  Wed Jul  2 16:21:48 2003
From: douglas at slugstone.net (Douglas kirkland)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Final (so far) RSVP list
In-Reply-To: <20030702133104.B6433@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030702133104.B6433@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <200307021421.48423.douglas@slugstone.net>

ok I can make it for dinner(RSVP).

Douglas

On Wednesday 02 July 2003 13:31, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
> SPUGsters,
>
> Those who responded to the request for dinner RSVPs by
> saying "I'm driving, and looking for riders" have not been
> counted, unless they specifically mentioned dining with us,
> because AFAIK, those folks are eating elsewhere and just
> attending the meeting, not the dinner.
>
> If you're not on the dinner list below, and want to be,
> let me know. Especially if you're female, because we're
> all males so far 8-{
>
> Damian Conway
> Tim Maher
> Michael Wolf
> Jeremy Mates
> Andrew Wyllie
> Colin Meyer
> Jay Gray
> Brian Schieb
> Dan Sabath
> Patrick Ryan
> Aaron Becker
> Chris Nandor (welcome to the NorthWest, pudge!)
> Andy Sweger
> Scott Blachowicz (maybe)
> Chris Cantrell Cantrell Cantrell Cantrell
> Asim Jalis
> C.J. Collier
> Bill Campbell
> Ben Burnett (by 6pm)
>
> There are still a few tables in the restaurant that we
> haven't yet filled, so if anyone else wants to join in,
> let us know by posting your Name and Arrival Time to the list.
>
> -Tim
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
>
> | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
> | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
> | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
>
> *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
>
> |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
>
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jul  2 17:08:38 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Perl/WML gig ASAP
Message-ID: <20030702150838.B6686@timji.consultix-inc.com>

Underemployed SPUGsters,

Just got a call from a headhunter named Vicky Stovall,
who needs to place at least one JAPH ASAP with a company
on the Eastside.  Ideal candidate will have experience
in programming hand-held devices, and knowledge of WML
(Wireless Markup Language), along with a heavy background
in Perl.

The first contract will be 3 months, starting TOMORROW
if possible, and the second 6 months.

Telecommuting is probably not an option; the pay range
is open, but unlikely to be commensurate with boom-time
rates, and her agency offers good benefits, including
even dental, a health-club affiliation, and a training
allowance.

Vicky's email is vstovall@macrostaff.com, 425-641-7252, x112.

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From sthoenna at efn.org  Wed Jul  2 17:09:01 2003
From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Oregon income tax question
Message-ID: <9f1A/gzkgG6R092yn@efn.org>

Does anyone know offhand: if I work from home here in Seattle as an
"employee" of a temp agency in Oregon, do I have to pay Oregon income
tax?  Does the answer change if I have to spend any time at all (5% or
less) in the office in Oregon?

From perl at pryan.org  Thu Jul  3 00:23:44 2003
From: perl at pryan.org (Patrick Ryan)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Oregon income tax question
In-Reply-To: <9f1A/gzkgG6R092yn@efn.org>
References: <9f1A/gzkgG6R092yn@efn.org>
Message-ID: <20030703052344.GI15918@stingray.velvet>

You should get a copy of the Oregon income tax form.  It is pretty clear
about how much of your income is subject to Oregon income tax.  I don't
know how it applies to telecommuting, since I worked on-site in Oregon.

Good luck.

- Patrick

On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 03:09:01PM -0700, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote:
> Does anyone know offhand: if I work from home here in Seattle as an
> "employee" of a temp agency in Oregon, do I have to pay Oregon income
> tax?  Does the answer change if I have to spend any time at all (5% or
> less) in the office in Oregon?
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 

From andrew at sweger.net  Thu Jul  3 00:28:11 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Oregon income tax question
In-Reply-To: <9f1A/gzkgG6R092yn@efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307022225410.12705-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

IANATC, but,

A quick look at the Oregon Department of Revenue site suggests that there
is a nonresident status for filing personal income taxes. I suspect you'll
want to look into the nonresident form 40N.

  http://www.dor.state.or.us/2002Forms/101-048N.pdf

  http://www.dor.state.or.us/forms.html

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote:

> Does anyone know offhand: if I work from home here in Seattle as an
> "employee" of a temp agency in Oregon, do I have to pay Oregon income
> tax?  Does the answer change if I have to spend any time at all (5% or
> less) in the office in Oregon?

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Thu Jul  3 12:38:54 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Rookie Question
In-Reply-To: <200306170158.SAA29942@carios2.ca.boeing.com>
References: <200306170158.SAA29942@carios2.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <20030703103854.A9609@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 06:58:14PM -0700, ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com wrote:
> > That's not a void context... grep() returns the array which is the
> > object of map(). The return value of map() is used as the key for an
> > anonymous hash, which is then subtracted from $uniq. What is means to
> > subtract a hash from a scalar is a mystery beyond the ken of mere
> > programmers.

What it means, to those of us who know Chuck as I do, is that *he
still can't type*! He's had the benefit of some valuable training
on the Perl language (I know, I was on the other side of the
podium 8-} ), but what he *really needs* is a crash course in
QWERTY interfacing strategies from the Evelyn Woods Institute of
Secretarial Technology. And there's no shame in that, Chuck, so
please ask your boss to schedule you for that training ASAP! 8-]

>  "Hm, Tim doesn't like grep... Maybe  just if used in void 
>   context..." 
> 
> I was suggesting though that this might explain the perceived bias 
> that was ascribed to Tim. 
> 
> Near violence can erupt in some quarters if map or grep or 
> backticked commands are used in void context.
> 
> Quick, Tim, straighten this mess out :) 
> --
> Charles DeRykus 

Sorry, I was at YAPC in Florida straightening out other things when this 
thread appeared, and only just noticed it today. 8-}

I'd like to make it clear that I have *nothing* against grep,
although I'm generally against "scoundreling", which occurs in void
context applications, as Charles et al rightly inferred.

What's scoundreling?  In the words of the Perl Manual from now classic
versions (up to 5.6.1):

  What's wrong with using grep or map in a void context?

   Both grep and map build a return list, regardless of their
   context. This means you're making Perl go to the trouble of
   building up a return list that you then just ignore.

   That's no way to treat a programming language, you
   insensitive scoundrel!

I can't see the code that Chuck was working with at the moment,
but it could probably be converted into just a map{} with a
matching operator inside, instead of a map + grep {} sequence,
and of course that change would save some "list slinging". But
it's probably simpler to code and understand in the map+grep
format, and easier for maintenance programmers to read that way
too, so I wouldn't vote for rewriting it just to cater to the
needs of the CPU over those of the humans! 8-}

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From aaronlbecker at attbi.com  Thu Jul  3 13:14:17 2003
From: aaronlbecker at attbi.com (Aaron Becker)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:SPUG and Lingua Module
Message-ID: <200307031114.17933.aaronlbecker@attbi.com>

Hi.  I would like to thank Tim and Damian for the SPUG meeting last night.  I 
have been waiting years to see Damian Conway since reading his book!  I had a 
great time and learned a lot.

One question:  Can you tell me the Lingua:: module Damian was using for 
diagraming the English language?  I believe he stated it won the Damian 
Conway award.

See you at the next meeting and thanks again,

Aaron Becker
aaronlbecker@attbi.com




From tim at consultix-inc.com  Thu Jul  3 13:35:48 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Re: SPUG and Lingua Module
In-Reply-To: <200307031114.17933.aaronlbecker@attbi.com>
References: <200307031114.17933.aaronlbecker@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030703113548.A9868@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:14:17AM -0700, Aaron Becker wrote:
> 
> Hi.  I would like to thank Tim and Damian for the SPUG meeting last night.  I 
> have been waiting years to see Damian Conway since reading his book!  I had a 
> great time and learned a lot.
> 
> One question:  Can you tell me the Lingua:: module Damian was using for 
> diagraming the English language?  I believe he stated it won the Damian 
> Conway award.
> 

search.cpan.org/author/DBRIAN/Lingua-LinkParser1.08/LinkParser.pm

> See you at the next meeting and thanks again,

You're welcome!  Glad you liked it!

-Tim
> 
> Aaron Becker
> aaronlbecker@attbi.com
> 
> 

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From itayf at fhcrc.org  Thu Jul  3 13:39:39 2003
From: itayf at fhcrc.org (Itay Furman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307031138100.3571-100000@cezanne.fhcrc.org>

I probably should have sent it to the list in the first place...

	Itay


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:54:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Itay Furman <itayf@fhcrc.org>
To: Tim Maher <tim@consultix-inc.com>
Subject: Re: SPUG:How to bundle images in PDF?


If you're using linux 'convert' is a quick solution:
	convert -adjoin slide*.jpg  presentation.pdf
There are many controls for the quality, placement
and annotation of the individual images.
	man convert
for details.

NOTE:
If you encounter problem in converting all 30 slides into a single pdf
try to convert only half of them. (It helped me when I tried to create
an html based visual directory :-)
I don't understand the origins of the different responses, though :-[

	Itay

=========================================================================
Itay Furman
Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center		(206) 667-5921 (voice)
1100 Fairview Avenue N., Mailstop D4-100	(206) 667-2917 (fax)
P.O. Box 19024					
Seattle, WA  98109-1024				
=========================================================================



On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Tim Maher wrote:

> SPUGgles,
> 
> In order to package my conference slides
> (http://teachmeperl.com/slides_03.html) more conveniently
> for downloading, I'd like to be able to bundle the 30+ JPEGs
> of each talk into a single PDF file.  I know this won't save
> me any storage 8-},  but it would allow people to download a
> single file, that they can page through using Acrobat Reader
> (or GhostView).
> 
> I've looked at a few PDF* modules, but none of them seems to
> have a method for incorporating images; all they talk about
> is text.
> 
> Can anybody give me some pointers in how to accomplish this
> goal, or give me a better alternative?
> 
> 
> -Tim
> P.S. Although I compose my presentations using a modified
> Magicpoint system (see http://teachmeperl.com/mg2mgp.html),
> and there is ostensibly a Magicpoint to PDF converter, it
> rarely works. Although it can create working PDFs for small
> or simple presentations, for my large and complicated ones,
> the PDFs generate inscrutable errors ("/undefined", etc.) when
> you try to view them, which is why I've given up on distributing
> in that format.
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
> | CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
> | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
> *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
> |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
> *------------------------------------------------------------*
> 



From itayf at fhcrc.org  Thu Jul  3 14:09:32 2003
From: itayf at fhcrc.org (Itay Furman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Building presentations with TeX/LaTeX
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307031139420.3571-100000@cezanne.fhcrc.org>

Both one of the recent threads (on bundling images into PDF), and aspects
of the (lovely and funny) talk by Damian yesterday have touched the matter
of building visual presentation in an open-source environment.

I want to point out that the TeX/LaTeX document preparation system provides
facilities for building presentations. The various extensions allow for 
inclusion/generation of graphical material, creation of PDF outputs
with almost all the goodies, and conversion to text/html/ps formats,
and many more...

It's free and -- most importantly for programmers -- it is potentially more 
fun because you may think of  TeX and its extensions as PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES,
and the document source as a program that typesets your text. (And it 
follows that the TeX program is your compiler.)

I hope I didn't waste any body's time on telling you things that you already 
know! If not and there is demand I'd be happy to provide some more hints 
and links.

Major entry point:
	http://www.tug.org
one example of a presentation package (with demonstrations):
	http://www.tug.org/applications/Seminar/index.html


	Itay

=========================================================================
Itay Furman
Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center		(206) 667-5921 (voice)
1100 Fairview Avenue N., Mailstop D4-100	(206) 667-2917 (fax)
P.O. Box 19024					
Seattle, WA  98109-1024				
=========================================================================







From tim at consultix-inc.com  Thu Jul  3 17:38:36 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Cast-off Party for Linux Lunacy in Sept.
Message-ID: <20030703153836.B10693@timji.consultix-inc.com>

SPUGsters,

I've arranged wtih Cap'n Neil of GeekCruises.com for SPUGsters
to be invited to the party indicated below.  It costs money,
but there will be an open bar and refreshments, and Geek Gurus
aplenty in residence.  And it's a LOT cheaper than going on the
cruise itself!  Hope some of you will enjoy attending!

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

*****************************
Linux Lunacy Pre-Cruise Party
*****************************
Date: Friday, September 12, 2003
Time: 8pm - 10pm
Location:
	Crowne Plaza Hotel (Seattle-Downtown)
	1113 Sixth Avenue 
	Seattle,??WA?? 98101 
	(206) 464-1980
Cost: $49 per person (in advance), $59 at the door
Payment: Check or credit card
Includes: Open bar and light hors d'oeuvres
Contact: Neil Bauman <neil@geekcruises.com>

Invited speakers (many will attend):
	David Axmark 
	Mick Bauer 
	David Fetter 
	Greg Haerr 
	Bruce Perens 
	Steven Pritchard
	Charles Roth 
	Randal Schwartz 
	Doc Searls 
	Linus Torvalds 
	Theodore Ts'o 
	Guido van Rossum 

.......................

Neil R. Bauman, Captain & CEO
Wireless in Alaska on the ms Ryndam

Geek Cruises (www.GeekCruises.com)
A Division of Int'l. Technology Conferences, Inc.
1430 Parkinson Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94301

650-327-3692; Fax: 928-396-2102; Cell phone: 215-519-0141


From jmail at poplarware.com  Thu Jul  3 19:04:10 2003
From: jmail at poplarware.com (Jennifer Hodgdon)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Building presentations with TeX/LaTeX
In-Reply-To: <200307032239.h63Md7J18118@mail.pm.org>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030703165219.01d4d368@mail.poplarware.com>

Itay wrote: 

>I want to point out that the TeX/LaTeX document preparation system provides
>facilities for building presentations. [snip]

This post back all sorts of memories from when I was in grad school
(10-15 years ago) -- pretty much everyone in science/math fields 
wrote all their papers/dissertations in Tex/Latex.  At the time, 
it was the only way to do reasonable equation formatting (well,
some old-timers were still using nroff/troff, but let's
not go there!).  So, we all got to be pretty good Tex hackers,
writing macro packages that were passed down many generations
of grad students.  Any more recent grads know if it's still
the de facto standard?

Anyway, like Perl, TeX is definitely for the hacker-at-heart,
not the faint-of-heart (and I mean hacker in the sense of a 
lone cowperson programmer, not a breaker-into-computer-systems).  
Which is to say, I recommend it.  Two books to read:
"Tex for the Impatient" (Abrahams, Berry, and Hargreaves) 
if it's still in print, and the reference manual: "The TeXBook" 
(Knuth).

Cheers,
    Jennifer

____________________________
Jennifer Hodgdon
Poplar ProductivityWare
Practical Solutions for Office Tedium Reduction

jmail@poplarware.com
http://www.poplarware.com



From tim at consultix-inc.com  Thu Jul  3 20:50:34 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Perl Certification Kwiki Online
Message-ID: <20030703185034.A11292@timji.consultix-inc.com>

(Un)?certified JAPHs,

Along with a tenacious cold in a hot land, I picked up "Kwiki
Fever" at YAPC last month. Which got me to thinking, why make TPC
attendees wait until Thursday afternoon (for the panel
discussion) or Thursday evening (for the BOF) to start frothing
at the mouth about every JAPH's most controversial issue, and why
deprive non-attendees of the experience altogether, when we can
=start arguing= about Perl Certification *right now* at the Perl
Certification Kwiki site?

Check it out, and more importantly, contribute your thoughts and
experiences to it, at http://perlcert.perlocity.org

I'm especially interested in having people contribute
"testimonials" about Perl certification tests they took, or
certifications that employees offered to managers, or tests that
managers administered to or requested from applicants. Let the
rest of us hear about your experiences!


Related web sites:
    Kwiki:
	http://www.kwiki.org
    YAPC Kwiki:
	http://yapc.kwiki.org
    OSCON Kwiki:
	http://oscon.kwiki.org
    OSCON Perl Certification Session
	http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/3747
    OSCON Perl Certification BOF
	http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/view/e_sess/4555"
    Perl Certification Kwiki
	http://perlcert.perlocity.org

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From ben at reser.org  Fri Jul  4 04:57:09 2003
From: ben at reser.org (Ben Reser)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Cast-off Party for Linux Lunacy in Sept.
In-Reply-To: <20030703153836.B10693@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030703153836.B10693@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030704095709.GC9825@titanium.brain.org>

On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 03:38:36PM -0700, Tim Maher wrote:
> *****************************
> Linux Lunacy Pre-Cruise Party
> *****************************
> Date: Friday, September 12, 2003
> Time: 8pm - 10pm
> Location:
> 	Crowne Plaza Hotel (Seattle-Downtown)
> 	1113 Sixth Avenue 
> 	Seattle,??WA?? 98101 
> 	(206) 464-1980
> Cost: $49 per person (in advance), $59 at the door
> Payment: Check or credit card
> Includes: Open bar and light hors d'oeuvres
> Contact: Neil Bauman <neil@geekcruises.com>

Hey that's my birthday, do I get to go free? :)

-- 
Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org

"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can
no longer believe you." -- Nietzsche

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jul  4 18:56:14 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Damians ~bin, .exrc online
Message-ID: <20030704165614.A14675@timji.consultix-inc.com>

My .exrc and numerous other "goodies" (featured in recent talks)
are now available from:

	http://www.yetanother.org/damian/bintools.tar.gz

Thanks for your patience.

Damian


From MichaelRWolf at att.net  Sat Jul  5 10:37:42 2003
From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:Cast-off Party for Linux Lunacy in Sept.
In-Reply-To: <20030704095709.GC9825@titanium.brain.org> (Ben Reser's message
	of "Fri, 4 Jul 2003 02:57:09 -0700")
References: <20030703153836.B10693@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<20030704095709.GC9825@titanium.brain.org>
Message-ID: <ur855f0hl.fsf@att.net>

Ben Reser <ben@reser.org> writes:

> On Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 03:38:36PM -0700, Tim Maher wrote:
>> *****************************
>> Linux Lunacy Pre-Cruise Party
>> *****************************
>> Date: Friday, September 12, 2003
>> Time: 8pm - 10pm
>> Location:
>> 	Crowne Plaza Hotel (Seattle-Downtown)
>> 	1113 Sixth Avenue 
>> 	Seattle,??WA?? 98101 
>> 	(206) 464-1980
>> Cost: $49 per person (in advance), $59 at the door
>> Payment: Check or credit card
>> Includes: Open bar and light hors d'oeuvres
>> Contact: Neil Bauman <neil@geekcruises.com>
>
> Hey that's my birthday, do I get to go free? :)

Yes, but only if you wear your birthday suit.  How else would folks
know?  :-)

-- 
Michael R. Wolf
    All mammals learn by playing!
        MichaelRWolf@att.net


From MichaelRWolf at att.net  Sun Jul  6 00:51:14 2003
From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG:YAPC Wiki Site
In-Reply-To: <un0gk2eaw.fsf@att.net> (Michael R. Wolf's message of "Sat, 14
	Jun 2003 20:46:31 -0700")
References: <20030613173908.A15662@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.21.0306141240230.14114-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>
	<20030614134013.A18973@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<un0gk2eaw.fsf@att.net>
Message-ID: <uhe6042zx.fsf@att.net>

Michael R. Wolf <MichaelRunningWolf@att.net> writes:

> SPUG-list-owner <tim@consultix-inc.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 12:42:16PM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
>>> 
>>> > As is always the case with Ingy's productions, the software
>>> > is way cool!
>>> 
>>> And how. I've got a couple internal Kwiki's already set up (I also have
>>> Debian woody packages built if anyone is interested). It's a sweet package
>>> and the sky's the limit how where it can go from here.
>>> 
>>>   http://www.kwiki.org/
>>> -- 
>>> Andrew B. Sweger 
>>
>> Any ideas on how we could use a wiki for SPUGly purposes?
>
> [[Preface -- I know this is a tangent to the original post. Please
> bear with me and reply to my points, not my divergence from the
> original point.]]
>
> Call me old fashioned, but I have a *strong* preference for
> discussions to continue via email or news.

[...]


It's been a long time since I threw this comment into the the thread.
I just got a chance to review the continued discussion, and would like
to thank everyone for some added perspective on the place a Wiki holds
in the digital ecosystem. Thanks especially to those who I may have
(inadvertantly) rubbed the wrong way. I can see that my comments could
have been taken differently, but they truly were based on wanting to
learn some more. I did.

In fact, the discussion had me consider creating a Wiki for a recent
1-week collaborative job I worked with folks in 7 different states.

Thanks,
Michael

-- 
Michael R. Wolf
    All mammals learn by playing!
        MichaelRWolf@att.net


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Sun Jul  6 11:36:55 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUG Wiki now Online
Message-ID: <20030706093655.A21659@timji.consultix-inc.com>

SPUGsters,

Thanks to SPUGomaniacs Brian Ingerson and Andy Sweger, we now
have a SPUG wiki online!

This would be a good place for each of us to add a page
describing our specialties, hobbies, and showing photos, to
discuss past meetings, to post links to SPUGly presentations we've
made, even (dare I say it), to revitalize a stick-riddle
thread, You want it, you type it, you got it!

As your leader, I'm in charge of the SPUG web page, as you know.
And I'll take an interest in gently guiding the SPUG Wiki into
a usable form, if such a need should arise, but I'll leave it
to the rest of you to design and populate the pages for now.

So get to it!  The URL is spugwiki.perlocity.org

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From MichaelRWolf at att.net  Mon Jul  7 14:56:15 2003
From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: SPUG Wiki broken?
In-Reply-To: <20030707074540.A24901@timji.consultix-inc.com> (SPUG-list-owner's
	message of "Mon, 7 Jul 2003 07:45:40 -0700")
References: <uy8za96ei.fsf@att.net>
	<20030707074540.A24901@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <ullva5cww.fsf@att.net>

SPUG-list-owner <tim@consultix-inc.com> writes:

> On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 11:51:01PM -0700, Michael R. Wolf wrote:
>> 
>> http://wiki.seattleperl.org/
>> 
>> Doesn't work or sends me to the SPUG home page.
>
> It's at spugwiki.perlocity.org

That means that it was wrong on 
    http://www.kwiki.org/index.cgi

But the cool thing about a Wiki is that *I* could correct it, so this
is an FYI announcement that it's now right rather than a request for
you (or some unknown person) to change it. 

How cool is that?

Michael

P.S.  I catch on pretty quickly, huh?


From andrew at sweger.net  Mon Jul  7 15:57:08 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: SPUG Wiki broken?
In-Reply-To: <ullva5cww.fsf@att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307071355030.21276-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Michael R. Wolf wrote:

> That means that it was wrong on 
>     http://www.kwiki.org/index.cgi
> 
> But the cool thing about a Wiki is that *I* could correct it, so this
> is an FYI announcement that it's now right rather than a request for
> you (or some unknown person) to change it. 
> 
> How cool is that?

Very. Thanks for fixing that. I forgot it was listed there.

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.


From law at acm.org  Tue Jul  8 15:42:27 2003
From: law at acm.org (lynn wilkins)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: Wiki URL in the SPUG signature block?
Message-ID: <0307081342271E.21687@maggie>

Hi,
At the bottom of the SPUG email is the:
"_____________________________________________________________
Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
"
It seems a useful addition to me if 
WIKI PAGE: http://spugwiki.perlocity.org
followed the WEB PAGE.

Would others find this useful?
-law


From ben at reser.org  Tue Jul  8 15:57:41 2003
From: ben at reser.org (Ben Reser)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: Wiki URL in the SPUG signature block?
In-Reply-To: <0307081342271E.21687@maggie>
References: <0307081342271E.21687@maggie>
Message-ID: <20030708205741.GF2152@titanium.brain.org>

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 01:42:27PM -0700, lynn wilkins wrote:
> Hi,
> At the bottom of the SPUG email is the:
> "_____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> "
> It seems a useful addition to me if 
> WIKI PAGE: http://spugwiki.perlocity.org
> followed the WEB PAGE.

Why doesn't whoever has control of seattleperl.(com|net|org)
just update their DNS to point wiki to the other site so everything
is consistent...

-- 
Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org

"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can
no longer believe you." -- Nietzsche

From MichaelRWolf at att.net  Tue Jul  8 20:09:10 2003
From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: Amazon job posting
Message-ID: <ullv85ww9.fsf@att.net>


I'm sure job shoppers know about the amazon.com job boards, so I won't
cross-post any of that here,

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/static/-/jobs/locale/Seattle-Headquarters/104-0456342-8616747

...except the following one, which hit the jobs.perl.org board
yesterday. Why just this one? Who knows? Maybe it's a hot job and
needs a hot SPUGger. Or maybe it's in a group with a SPUGger in it.

"Automated Engineering" starts out sounding like spam generation but
ends up sounding a bit different. Anyone who finds out, please share.

Michael Wolf

> Online URL for this job: http://jobs.perl.org/job/843
>
> To subscribe to this list, send mail to jobs-subscribe@perl.org.
> To unsubscribe, send mail to jobs-unsubscribe@perl.org.
>
> Posted: July  7, 2003
>
> Job title:
> Web Development Engineer, Automated Advertising Team
>
> Company name: Amazon.com
>
> Internal ID: 03-008944

[...]


-- 
Michael R. Wolf
    All mammals learn by playing!
        MichaelRWolf@att.net


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul  8 23:01:33 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: Wiki URL in the SPUG signature block?
In-Reply-To: <0307081342271E.21687@maggie>
References: <0307081342271E.21687@maggie>
Message-ID: <20030708210133.A30936@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 01:42:27PM -0700, lynn wilkins wrote:
> Hi,
> At the bottom of the SPUG email is the:
> "_____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> "
> It seems a useful addition to me if 
> WIKI PAGE: http://spugwiki.perlocity.org
> followed the WEB PAGE.

I agree, and will get to it when I can.

-Tim
> 
> Would others find this useful?
> -law
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| CEO, JAWCAR ("Just Another White Camel Award Recipient")   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From m3047 at inwa.net  Wed Jul  9 01:13:43 2003
From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: plot frameworks
Message-ID: <v02130500bb31614cee09@[66.228.197.251]>

Anybody know of a ready-to-use plot framework?

I want an X-Y scatterplot, with each point labeled.

I want to be able to save to a file in some sort of graphics format.
PostScript would be nice, bitmaps are ok.

Ideally it takes its data in some sort of array or other structure with the
X and Y coordinates and the label for each point, and pouf -- there's the
window... and maybe a button to save to a file. (I want it all, don't I?)


The Perl Tk Canvas has PostScript output.

I stumbled across blt, which also has some easy support for zooming.. but I
don't know what the Perl support for that is like. I might have to make it
a two-step process, where one program makes the loadfile (or blt/tcl file)
and launches that.

--

Fred Morris
m3047@inwa.net



From cwilkes-spug at ladro.com  Wed Jul  9 01:51:02 2003
From: cwilkes-spug at ladro.com (Chris Wilkes)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: plot frameworks
In-Reply-To: <v02130500bb31614cee09@[66.228.197.251]>
References: <v02130500bb31614cee09@[66.228.197.251]>
Message-ID: <20030709065102.GI83022@www.ladro.com>

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:13:43PM -0700, Fred Morris wrote:
> Anybody know of a ready-to-use plot framework?
> 
> I want an X-Y scatterplot, with each point labeled.
> 
> I want to be able to save to a file in some sort of graphics format.
> PostScript would be nice, bitmaps are ok.
> 
> Ideally it takes its data in some sort of array or other structure with the
> X and Y coordinates and the label for each point, and pouf -- there's the
> window... and maybe a button to save to a file. (I want it all, don't I?)

Have you looked at GnuPlot?
	http://www.gnuplot.info/

The demos are very impressive.  There's some perl modules for it so you
might be able to feed data into it, have it generate the plot and then
tell gnuplot to start its GUI with that plot.

Chris

From bill at celestial.com  Wed Jul  9 01:52:35 2003
From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: plot frameworks
In-Reply-To: <v02130500bb31614cee09@[66.228.197.251]>;
	from m3047@inwa.net on Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:13:43PM -0700
References: <v02130500bb31614cee09@[66.228.197.251]>
Message-ID: <20030708235235.A12194@barryg.mi.celestial.com>

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:13:43PM -0700, Fred Morris wrote:
>Anybody know of a ready-to-use plot framework?
>
>I want an X-Y scatterplot, with each point labeled.

gnuplot.

Bill
--
INTERNET:   bill@Celestial.COM  Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP:               camco!bill  PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX:            (206) 232-9186  Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/

Basic Definitions of Science:
    If it's green or wiggles, it's biology.
    If it stinks, it's chemistry.
    If it doesn't work, it's physics.

From kahn at cpan.org  Wed Jul  9 13:41:24 2003
From: kahn at cpan.org (Jeremy Kahn)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:02 2004
Subject: SPUG: plot frameworks
In-Reply-To: <v02130500bb31614cee09@[66.228.197.251]>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0307091140190.68648-100000@dante26.u.washington.edu>

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003, Fred Morris wrote:

> Anybody know of a ready-to-use plot framework?

Chart::Plot is pretty good. I used it for Chart::Plot::Annotated </toot>

--jeremy



From m3047 at inwa.net  Wed Jul  9 23:10:58 2003
From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: summary: plot frameworks
Message-ID: <v02130500bb328e1c4168@[66.228.197.251]>

GnuPlot         http://www.gnuplot.info/        2
        Some perl modules may be available.

Chart::Plot                                     2

GD::Graph                                       1

Perl Tk                                         (found that myself)
        Has a plot demo. The Canvas widget supports PostScript
        output. The demo code doesn't seem to be designed to be
        immediately adaptable to real-world application, more like
        its primarly purpose is to showcase Tk and prowess of the
        programmers.

BLT                                             (found that myself)
        A Tk add-on. Nice built-in support for zooming and output
        of not only PostScript but bitmaps. No direct Perl support
        though.

So, looks like I've got some reading to do...

Ultimately if the concept works out, I'll probably want to serve it up
web-based somehow and hyperlink it back to the original data, but somewhere
in there there's got to be a suitable tool for proof of concept! It all
depends on how the data munging goes. If anybody's truly curious, they can
e-mail me directly; maybe I'll publish something on the web if it works
well. I'll just say for the moment that it has to do with analyzing and
graphing relationships between entities over time (yes, I'm thinking of my
calendar and contacts data). The same concept might also be put to
analyzing intrusion logs (what a coincidence, I've got some of those, too).
The basic concepts involved aren't new or even particularly esoteric (at
least to me, I saw one of the algorithms in use in some form or another in
the early 1980s), but the combination might be fairly novel.


Anyway, hopefully I'll have something interesting to follow this up with in
a month or three.


(PS, I was able to get the Perl Tk plot demo working... without reading
FAQs. At least with the not-exactly current copy I had, the demos didn't
run out of the box, they were embedded in some sort of baroque framework.
But all it took was shebang /usr/bin/perl, creating a main window, and
calling MainLoop()... FWIW. The demo code is not exactly fast food, but the
necessary nuggets of nutrition could be extracted fairly easily and made to
work.)

--

Fred Morris
m3047@inwa.net



From jay at scherrer.com  Thu Jul 10 00:44:12 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: summary: plot frameworks
In-Reply-To: <v02130500bb328e1c4168@[66.228.197.251]>
References: <v02130500bb328e1c4168@[66.228.197.251]>
Message-ID: <200307092244.12290.jay@scherrer.com>

What would happen if you used the Gimp and perl-fu scripting?
I haven't tried my self but it seems very possible.  

Jay
On Wednesday 09 July 2003 09:10 pm, Fred Morris wrote:
> GnuPlot         http://www.gnuplot.info/        2
>         Some perl modules may be available.
>
> Chart::Plot                                     2
>
> GD::Graph                                       1
>
> Perl Tk                                         (found that myself)
>         Has a plot demo. The Canvas widget supports PostScript
>         output. The demo code doesn't seem to be designed to be
>         immediately adaptable to real-world application, more like
>         its primarly purpose is to showcase Tk and prowess of the
>         programmers.
>
> BLT                                             (found that myself)
>         A Tk add-on. Nice built-in support for zooming and output
>         of not only PostScript but bitmaps. No direct Perl support
>         though.
>
> So, looks like I've got some reading to do...
>
> Ultimately if the concept works out, I'll probably want to serve it up
> web-based somehow and hyperlink it back to the original data, but somewhere
> in there there's got to be a suitable tool for proof of concept! It all
> depends on how the data munging goes. If anybody's truly curious, they can
> e-mail me directly; maybe I'll publish something on the web if it works
> well. I'll just say for the moment that it has to do with analyzing and
> graphing relationships between entities over time (yes, I'm thinking of my
> calendar and contacts data). The same concept might also be put to
> analyzing intrusion logs (what a coincidence, I've got some of those, too).
> The basic concepts involved aren't new or even particularly esoteric (at
> least to me, I saw one of the algorithms in use in some form or another in
> the early 1980s), but the combination might be fairly novel.
>
>
> Anyway, hopefully I'll have something interesting to follow this up with in
> a month or three.
>
>
> (PS, I was able to get the Perl Tk plot demo working... without reading
> FAQs. At least with the not-exactly current copy I had, the demos didn't
> run out of the box, they were embedded in some sort of baroque framework.
> But all it took was shebang /usr/bin/perl, creating a main window, and
> calling MainLoop()... FWIW. The demo code is not exactly fast food, but the
> necessary nuggets of nutrition could be extracted fairly easily and made to
> work.)
>
> --
>
> Fred Morris
> m3047@inwa.net
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org

-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jul 11 21:49:55 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: This is a Test
Message-ID: <20030711194955.A10942@timji.consultix-inc.com>

Don't reply.  PLEASE don't!

-Tim
=======================================================
| Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim(AT)timmaher.org     | 
| SPUG Founder & Leader       spug(AT)seattleperl.com |
| Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.com     |
=======================================================

From alan at ufies.org  Mon Jul 14 14:08:46 2003
From: alan at ufies.org (Alan)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms 
Message-ID: <20030714190846.GJ5130@ufies.org>

Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into PDF
forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be done,
and hopefully relatively easily.  

Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm not
all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care about
the text fields).

Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this is?

Regards and thanks from up north

alan

-- 
Alan <alan@ufies.org> - http://arcterex.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are only 3 real sports: bull-fighting, car racing and mountain 
climbing. All the others are mere games."                -- Hemingway

From dan at concolor.org  Tue Jul 15 02:15:30 2003
From: dan at concolor.org (Dan Sabath)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms 
In-Reply-To: <20030714190846.GJ5130@ufies.org>
Message-ID: <1E41C40D-B694-11D7-8E80-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>

A quick search of CPAN (search.cpan.org) returns quite a few modules  
dealing with PDF.

This one seems to do what you want.

PDF::Reuse  
http://search.cpan.org/author/LARSLUND/PDF-Reuse-0.08/Reuse.pm
w/ tutorial
http://search.cpan.org/author/LARSLUND/PDF-Reuse-Tutorial-0.04/ 
Tutorial.pm

-dan

On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 12:08 PM, Alan wrote:

> Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into  
> PDF
> forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be done,
> and hopefully relatively easily.
>
> Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
> pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm  
> not
> all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
> allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
> take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care about
> the text fields).
>
> Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
> Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this  
> is?
>
> Regards and thanks from up north
>
> alan


From jay at scherrer.com  Tue Jul 15 10:52:51 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
In-Reply-To: <20030714190846.GJ5130@ufies.org>
References: <20030714190846.GJ5130@ufies.org>
Message-ID: <200307150852.51787.jay@scherrer.com>

Alan,
This is exactly how we produce our tax forms using Practical Tax.
Can you use PostScript?
We had found that if we were to convert the form from PDF to PostScript and 
anded our variables ($var) into the form entry point. If you play around with 
your PostScript you'll find that your entries will be contained within  a set 
of parenthisis "( )". Create a template that contains your variables within 
those parenthisis. Then all you have to do is assign values to those $vars 
and have Perl print the file.
This enabled us to parse print the .ps page through Perl. Basicly replacing 
any ($var) with your inputed value. We had to extend it a little by creating 
an XML file for our records allowing us to traverse the hash and replacing 
the tagged entry with the matched $variable. 

Jay
On Monday 14 July 2003 12:08 pm, Alan wrote:
> Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into PDF
> forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be done,
> and hopefully relatively easily.
>
> Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
> pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm not
> all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
> allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
> take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care about
> the text fields).
>
> Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
> Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this is?
>
> Regards and thanks from up north
>
> alan

-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

From alan at ufies.org  Tue Jul 15 11:12:55 2003
From: alan at ufies.org (Alan)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
In-Reply-To: <200307150852.51787.jay@scherrer.com>
References: <20030714190846.GJ5130@ufies.org>
	<200307150852.51787.jay@scherrer.com>
Message-ID: <20030715161255.GD21777@ufies.org>

I can't go into the details too much due to NDA, but they are wanting to
produce print quality items with user input in them.  I have talked to
some other people and they suggested using FDF files which may solve the
problem (from what I understand it's a text file with form field
contents and a link to the pdf itself, and that is displayed onscreen
with the fields filled out), but it does not allow people to save the
"final" pdf (with user input).  The design is all in PDF form (as artsy
types like) but I'll take a look at pdf->ps->[fill in fields]->pdf.  The
project is just in the planning research stage right now anyway.

Thanks for the idea though.

alan

On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 08:52:51AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote:
> Alan,
> This is exactly how we produce our tax forms using Practical Tax.
> Can you use PostScript?
> We had found that if we were to convert the form from PDF to PostScript and 
> anded our variables ($var) into the form entry point. If you play around with 
> your PostScript you'll find that your entries will be contained within  a set 
> of parenthisis "( )". Create a template that contains your variables within 
> those parenthisis. Then all you have to do is assign values to those $vars 
> and have Perl print the file.
> This enabled us to parse print the .ps page through Perl. Basicly replacing 
> any ($var) with your inputed value. We had to extend it a little by creating 
> an XML file for our records allowing us to traverse the hash and replacing 
> the tagged entry with the matched $variable. 
> 
> Jay
> On Monday 14 July 2003 12:08 pm, Alan wrote:
> > Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into PDF
> > forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be done,
> > and hopefully relatively easily.
> >
> > Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
> > pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm not
> > all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
> > allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
> > take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care about
> > the text fields).
> >
> > Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
> > Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this is?
> >
> > Regards and thanks from up north
> >
> > alan
> 
> -- 
> Personalized e-mail and domain names:
> <http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

-- 
Alan <alan@ufies.org> - http://arcterex.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are only 3 real sports: bull-fighting, car racing and mountain 
climbing. All the others are mere games."                -- Hemingway

From ashok_palihill at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 15 11:55:01 2003
From: ashok_palihill at hotmail.com (Ashok Misra)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
Message-ID: <Sea1-F131q009fitrH10000ae2f@hotmail.com>

i apologize if this sounds totally ridiculous but if the structure of the 
document is not very complex could you plonk the form on the file system 
using sgml tags so it becomes an sgml document.
then you could use jade to compile the sgml into pdf. a trigger could be 
devised to fire the compiler.
using the freeware jade compiler is very straightforward.

best regards
Ashok Misra
206 427 5232





>From: Alan <alan@ufies.org>
>To: spug-list@pm.org
>Subject: Re: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:12:55 -0700
>
>I can't go into the details too much due to NDA, but they are wanting to
>produce print quality items with user input in them.  I have talked to
>some other people and they suggested using FDF files which may solve the
>problem (from what I understand it's a text file with form field
>contents and a link to the pdf itself, and that is displayed onscreen
>with the fields filled out), but it does not allow people to save the
>"final" pdf (with user input).  The design is all in PDF form (as artsy
>types like) but I'll take a look at pdf->ps->[fill in fields]->pdf.  The
>project is just in the planning research stage right now anyway.
>
>Thanks for the idea though.
>
>alan
>
>On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 08:52:51AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote:
> > Alan,
> > This is exactly how we produce our tax forms using Practical Tax.
> > Can you use PostScript?
> > We had found that if we were to convert the form from PDF to PostScript 
>and
> > anded our variables ($var) into the form entry point. If you play around 
>with
> > your PostScript you'll find that your entries will be contained within  
>a set
> > of parenthisis "( )". Create a template that contains your variables 
>within
> > those parenthisis. Then all you have to do is assign values to those 
>$vars
> > and have Perl print the file.
> > This enabled us to parse print the .ps page through Perl. Basicly 
>replacing
> > any ($var) with your inputed value. We had to extend it a little by 
>creating
> > an XML file for our records allowing us to traverse the hash and 
>replacing
> > the tagged entry with the matched $variable.
> >
> > Jay
> > On Monday 14 July 2003 12:08 pm, Alan wrote:
> > > Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into 
>PDF
> > > forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be 
>done,
> > > and hopefully relatively easily.
> > >
> > > Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
> > > pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm 
>not
> > > all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
> > > allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
> > > take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care about
> > > the text fields).
> > >
> > > Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
> > > Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this 
>is?
> > >
> > > Regards and thanks from up north
> > >
> > > alan
> >
> > --
> > Personalized e-mail and domain names:
> > <http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM
>
>--
>Alan <alan@ufies.org> - http://arcterex.net
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>"There are only 3 real sports: bull-fighting, car racing and mountain
>climbing. All the others are mere games."                -- Hemingway
>_____________________________________________________________
>Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
>POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
>ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
>MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
>WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From tnight at pobox.com  Tue Jul 15 12:27:58 2003
From: tnight at pobox.com (Terry Nightingale)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
In-Reply-To: <Sea1-F131q009fitrH10000ae2f@hotmail.com>
References: <Sea1-F131q009fitrH10000ae2f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F14399E.8070700@pobox.com>

For what it's worth (FWIW), you could do the same thing using an XML 
document with XSL-FO transforming it into PDF.


Ashok Misra wrote:

> i apologize if this sounds totally ridiculous but if the structure of 
> the document is not very complex could you plonk the form on the file 
> system using sgml tags so it becomes an sgml document.
> then you could use jade to compile the sgml into pdf. a trigger could be 
> devised to fire the compiler.
> using the freeware jade compiler is very straightforward.
> 
> best regards
> Ashok Misra
> 206 427 5232
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Alan <alan@ufies.org>
>> To: spug-list@pm.org
>> Subject: Re: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
>> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:12:55 -0700
>>
>> I can't go into the details too much due to NDA, but they are wanting to
>> produce print quality items with user input in them.  I have talked to
>> some other people and they suggested using FDF files which may solve the
>> problem (from what I understand it's a text file with form field
>> contents and a link to the pdf itself, and that is displayed onscreen
>> with the fields filled out), but it does not allow people to save the
>> "final" pdf (with user input).  The design is all in PDF form (as artsy
>> types like) but I'll take a look at pdf->ps->[fill in fields]->pdf.  The
>> project is just in the planning research stage right now anyway.
>>
>> Thanks for the idea though.
>>
>> alan
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 08:52:51AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote:
>> > Alan,
>> > This is exactly how we produce our tax forms using Practical Tax.
>> > Can you use PostScript?
>> > We had found that if we were to convert the form from PDF to 
>> PostScript and
>> > anded our variables ($var) into the form entry point. If you play 
>> around with
>> > your PostScript you'll find that your entries will be contained 
>> within  a set
>> > of parenthisis "( )". Create a template that contains your variables 
>> within
>> > those parenthisis. Then all you have to do is assign values to those 
>> $vars
>> > and have Perl print the file.
>> > This enabled us to parse print the .ps page through Perl. Basicly 
>> replacing
>> > any ($var) with your inputed value. We had to extend it a little by 
>> creating
>> > an XML file for our records allowing us to traverse the hash and 
>> replacing
>> > the tagged entry with the matched $variable.
>> >
>> > Jay
>> > On Monday 14 July 2003 12:08 pm, Alan wrote:
>> > > Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data 
>> into PDF
>> > > forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be 
>> done,
>> > > and hopefully relatively easily.
>> > >
>> > > Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
>> > > pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  
>> I'm not
>> > > all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
>> > > allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
>> > > take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care 
>> about
>> > > the text fields).
>> > >
>> > > Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
>> > > Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for 
>> this is?
>> > >
>> > > Regards and thanks from up north
>> > >
>> > > alan
>> >
>> > --
>> > Personalized e-mail and domain names:
>> > <http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM
>>
>> -- 
>> Alan <alan@ufies.org> - http://arcterex.net
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> "There are only 3 real sports: bull-fighting, car racing and mountain
>> climbing. All the others are mere games."                -- Hemingway
>> _____________________________________________________________
>> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
>> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
>> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
>> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
>> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>>
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   
> Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Terry Nightingale <tnight@pobox.com>
Web Developer, Philosopher, Geek
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in
practice, there is." -- Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut


From ashok_palihill at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 15 14:25:51 2003
From: ashok_palihill at hotmail.com (Ashok Misra)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
Message-ID: <Sea1-F67athsPvGpqzr0000b56b@hotmail.com>

sure , i usually do jade because you can choose multiple output formats i.e. 
pdf, html, ...
best regards
-a



Ashok Misra
206 427 5232





>From: Terry Nightingale <tnight@pobox.com>
>To: ashok@misraonline.com
>CC: alan@ufies.org, spug-list@pm.org
>Subject: Re: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:27:58 -0700
>
>For what it's worth (FWIW), you could do the same thing using an XML 
>document with XSL-FO transforming it into PDF.
>
>
>Ashok Misra wrote:
>
>>i apologize if this sounds totally ridiculous but if the structure of the 
>>document is not very complex could you plonk the form on the file system 
>>using sgml tags so it becomes an sgml document.
>>then you could use jade to compile the sgml into pdf. a trigger could be 
>>devised to fire the compiler.
>>using the freeware jade compiler is very straightforward.
>>
>>best regards
>>Ashok Misra
>>206 427 5232
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Alan <alan@ufies.org>
>>>To: spug-list@pm.org
>>>Subject: Re: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
>>>Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:12:55 -0700
>>>
>>>I can't go into the details too much due to NDA, but they are wanting to
>>>produce print quality items with user input in them.  I have talked to
>>>some other people and they suggested using FDF files which may solve the
>>>problem (from what I understand it's a text file with form field
>>>contents and a link to the pdf itself, and that is displayed onscreen
>>>with the fields filled out), but it does not allow people to save the
>>>"final" pdf (with user input).  The design is all in PDF form (as artsy
>>>types like) but I'll take a look at pdf->ps->[fill in fields]->pdf.  The
>>>project is just in the planning research stage right now anyway.
>>>
>>>Thanks for the idea though.
>>>
>>>alan
>>>
>>>On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 08:52:51AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote:
>>> > Alan,
>>> > This is exactly how we produce our tax forms using Practical Tax.
>>> > Can you use PostScript?
>>> > We had found that if we were to convert the form from PDF to 
>>>PostScript and
>>> > anded our variables ($var) into the form entry point. If you play 
>>>around with
>>> > your PostScript you'll find that your entries will be contained within 
>>>  a set
>>> > of parenthisis "( )". Create a template that contains your variables 
>>>within
>>> > those parenthisis. Then all you have to do is assign values to those 
>>>$vars
>>> > and have Perl print the file.
>>> > This enabled us to parse print the .ps page through Perl. Basicly 
>>>replacing
>>> > any ($var) with your inputed value. We had to extend it a little by 
>>>creating
>>> > an XML file for our records allowing us to traverse the hash and 
>>>replacing
>>> > the tagged entry with the matched $variable.
>>> >
>>> > Jay
>>> > On Monday 14 July 2003 12:08 pm, Alan wrote:
>>> > > Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into 
>>>PDF
>>> > > forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be 
>>>done,
>>> > > and hopefully relatively easily.
>>> > >
>>> > > Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
>>> > > pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm 
>>>not
>>> > > all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
>>> > > allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do 
>>>is
>>> > > take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care 
>>>about
>>> > > the text fields).
>>> > >
>>> > > Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an 
>>>option.
>>> > > Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this 
>>>is?
>>> > >
>>> > > Regards and thanks from up north
>>> > >
>>> > > alan
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Personalized e-mail and domain names:
>>> > <http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM
>>>
>>>--
>>>Alan <alan@ufies.org> - http://arcterex.net
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>"There are only 3 real sports: bull-fighting, car racing and mountain
>>>climbing. All the others are mere games."                -- Hemingway
>>>_____________________________________________________________
>>>Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
>>>POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
>>>ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
>>>MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
>>>WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>>
>>_____________________________________________________________
>>Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   
>>Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
>>ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
>>MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
>>WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Terry Nightingale <tnight@pobox.com>
>Web Developer, Philosopher, Geek
>"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in
>practice, there is." -- Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
>

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From jmates at sial.org  Tue Jul 15 14:48:46 2003
From: jmates at sial.org (Jeremy Mates)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: help with dynamic pdf forms
In-Reply-To: <Sea1-F67athsPvGpqzr0000b56b@hotmail.com>
References: <Sea1-F67athsPvGpqzr0000b56b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20030715194846.GM93104@darkness.sial.org>

* Ashok Misra <ashok_palihill@hotmail.com>
> sure , i usually do jade because you can choose multiple output
> formats i.e. pdf, html, ...

Multiple output formats are supported by several of the XSL-FO engines,
not just Jade. FOP, for instance. There are also XSL-FO -> LaTeX
converters, though I have no experience with those.

http://xml.apache.org/fop/

From jay at scherrer.com  Tue Jul 15 16:13:25 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms
In-Reply-To: <20030715161255.GD21777@ufies.org>
References: <20030714190846.GJ5130@ufies.org>
	<200307150852.51787.jay@scherrer.com>
	<20030715161255.GD21777@ufies.org>
Message-ID: <200307151413.25257.jay@scherrer.com>

Since your still in the planning stage,
Here anothr tidbit.
With Practical Tax, we have to print to hundreds of forms with an ever growing 
list of variables, And to top it off they have to be exact duplicates with 
the IRS.
Here's some pointer's:
If you're using an artsy dev team, try to create a good "DTD".
one that will be recognized by the artsy's and the dev'rs.
Have the artsy's insert the tags conforming to your DTD.
Once you have the DTD tags down, it's only a matter of hashing the tags.
I don't know if this will work with .pdf , it should, but I know it works very 
well with .ps files. And you don't even need to mess with coordinates or the 
graphic structure. "Just the tags man.... just the tags".

Jay

  
On Tuesday 15 July 2003 09:12 am, Alan wrote:
> I can't go into the details too much due to NDA, but they are wanting to
> produce print quality items with user input in them.  I have talked to
> some other people and they suggested using FDF files which may solve the
> problem (from what I understand it's a text file with form field
> contents and a link to the pdf itself, and that is displayed onscreen
> with the fields filled out), but it does not allow people to save the
> "final" pdf (with user input).  The design is all in PDF form (as artsy
> types like) but I'll take a look at pdf->ps->[fill in fields]->pdf.  The
> project is just in the planning research stage right now anyway.
>
> Thanks for the idea though.
>
> alan
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 08:52:51AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote:
> > Alan,
> > This is exactly how we produce our tax forms using Practical Tax.
> > Can you use PostScript?
> > We had found that if we were to convert the form from PDF to PostScript
> > and anded our variables ($var) into the form entry point. If you play
> > around with your PostScript you'll find that your entries will be
> > contained within  a set of parenthisis "( )". Create a template that
> > contains your variables within those parenthisis. Then all you have to do
> > is assign values to those $vars and have Perl print the file.
> > This enabled us to parse print the .ps page through Perl. Basicly
> > replacing any ($var) with your inputed value. We had to extend it a
> > little by creating an XML file for our records allowing us to traverse
> > the hash and replacing the tagged entry with the matched $variable.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > On Monday 14 July 2003 12:08 pm, Alan wrote:
> > > Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into
> > > PDF forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be
> > > done, and hopefully relatively easily.
> > >
> > > Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
> > > pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm
> > > not all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
> > > allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
> > > take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care about
> > > the text fields).
> > >
> > > Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
> > > Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this
> > > is?
> > >
> > > Regards and thanks from up north
> > >
> > > alan
> >
> > --
> > Personalized e-mail and domain names:
> > <http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

From itayf at fhcrc.org  Tue Jul 15 17:16:59 2003
From: itayf at fhcrc.org (Itay Furman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: A bug?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307151509220.20948-100000@cezanne.fhcrc.org>


Hi,

The behavior described below seem to me to be a bug, but I'm not sure, since I 
know nothing about 'ioctl'. In any case, I didn't find any FAQ, or other
message with similar description. I'd appreciate your opinion :-)

The following simple script, ioctl-test.pl, appears to behave differently
under different invocation schemes.

  'ioctl-test.pl FILE'
prints
  'Inappropriate ioctl for device'
and fails when tested for $!.
In contrast,
  'cat FILE | ioctl-test.pl'
prints nothing (as expected? :-).

This behavior was consistent for different kinds of FILEs,
including when FILE is ioctl-test.pl itself.

# >>  begin ioctl-test.pl  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< #
#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

while (<>) {
  #print "$! (($.))\n" if $!;	# To see effect at every input line
}
print "$!\n" if $!;
# >>  end   ioctl-test.pl  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< #

BTW,
If actual command are included within the while(<>) {} loop, they are
processed correctly (!), at least for the cases that I've checked.

	Thanks,
	Itay

--
=========================================================================
Itay Furman
Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center		(206) 667-5921 (voice)
1100 Fairview Avenue N., Mailstop D4-100	(206) 667-2917 (fax)
P.O. Box 19024					
Seattle, WA  98109-1024				
=========================================================================





From itayf at fhcrc.org  Tue Jul 15 17:53:51 2003
From: itayf at fhcrc.org (Itay Furman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: help with dynamic pdf forms 
In-Reply-To: <20030714190846.GJ5130@ufies.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307151533180.20968-100000@cezanne.fhcrc.org>


Yet another option to use is LaTeX to typeset the forms.
The source are TEXT files rendering them to easy manipulation (by PERL :-).
It should be easy to set up templates (I have one for a fax cover sheet)
Conditional typesetting is available, and relatively straight forward to 
accomplish.

The quality of Postscript or PDF produced is much higher then what is 
provided by printing an HTML (or any other *ML) without the TROUBLE of
actually programming in Postscript. 

Assuming user.tex holds one instance of a form to be typeset then
produce PS file, user.ps, with
	latex user
	dvips -o user.ps user
or PDF file, user.pdf, with
	pdflatex user

Converters to html, and interfaces to *ML are also widely available. Never 
tried them though.

	Itay


On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Alan wrote:

> Howdy folks.  I have a project coming up involving filling data into PDF
> forms created by a design firm.  I'm pretty sure that this can be done,
> and hopefully relatively easily.  
> 
> Basically what I need to do is take user input and insert it into a
> pre-set position / form field in an already created static PDF.  I'm not
> all that familiar with acrobat, but it has a "form field" tool that
> allows creation of text fields, checkboxes, etc.  All I need to do is
> take user input and stick it into those form fields (I only care about
> the text fields).
> 
> Obviously creating the pdfs from scratch via PDF-Lib isn't an option.
> Can anyone point me at whatever the in vogue tool / library for this is?
> 
> Regards and thanks from up north
> 
> alan
> 
> 


From sthoenna at efn.org  Tue Jul 15 17:55:51 2003
From: sthoenna at efn.org (Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: A bug?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307151509220.20948-100000@cezanne.fhcrc.org>
Message-ID: <3ZIF/gzkg+4G092yn@efn.org>

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:16:59 -0700 (PDT), itayf@fhcrc.org wrote:
>  'ioctl-test.pl FILE'
>prints
>  'Inappropriate ioctl for device'
>and fails when tested for $!.
>In contrast,
>  'cat FILE | ioctl-test.pl'
>prints nothing (as expected? :-).

$! is meaningless unless there has been an error.  When <> (aka readline)
returns undef and you want to check for an error, first call eof.  If
it wasn't eof, then check $!.

From itayf at fhcrc.org  Wed Jul 16 14:54:53 2003
From: itayf at fhcrc.org (Itay Furman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: A bug?
In-Reply-To: <3ZIF/gzkg+4G092yn@efn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307161252170.22473-100000@cezanne.fhcrc.org>


So it was a bug, albeit a one in my 'program' ... Thanks :-)

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:16:59 -0700 (PDT), itayf@fhcrc.org wrote:
> >  'ioctl-test.pl FILE'
> >prints
> >  'Inappropriate ioctl for device'
> >and fails when tested for $!.
> >In contrast,
> >  'cat FILE | ioctl-test.pl'
> >prints nothing (as expected? :-).
> 
> $! is meaningless unless there has been an error.  When <> (aka readline)
> returns undef and you want to check for an error, first call eof.  If
> it wasn't eof, then check $!.
> 


From ashok_palihill at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 16 19:27:13 2003
From: ashok_palihill at hotmail.com (Ashok Misra)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: anyone out there working in realnetworks ? 
Message-ID: <Sea1-F39Av1WbHbSYTT0000eca8@hotmail.com>

i sincerely apologize for the spam but  need some help from anyone in real 
networks and would appreciate if you could get back to me.
thanks a lot
regards
-ashok
206 236 0170 ( H )
206 427 5232 ( M )

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jul 18 12:13:55 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
Message-ID: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>

SPUGsters,

For the last four months, I've been traveling around
North America singing the praises of SPUG, and arguing
that 2nd-Biggest is better than Biggest, when the biggest
(London.pm) is primarily a drinking club, instead of one that
relegates that activity to 2nd place where it belongs, after
Perl technical discussions.

But along the way various people have suggested that mailing
list size is not the proper metric for judging Perl group
"bigosity", but rather some index more sensitive to how actively
those members are participating.

Which brings me to my point. We announced the SPUG wiki more
than 10 days ago, and thus far, only *six individuals* have
taken the time to make MemberPages for themselves there.

Could it possibly be true that 98% of the individuals on our
mailing list are not even reading the posts, or if they are, too
disinterested to brag about their modules or kids or pets and
to post photos on a page that promises free publicity and instant
celebrity?

I hope not!

So here's another invitation to visit spugwiki.perlocity.org,
hosted by Andy Sweger, and make a page for yourself there.

Why?

Because it will help us build our community and solidify our
interrelationships, by making it easier for us to recognize
each other at meetings, and to know who works were, and who's
involved in what aspects of different technologies.

I'm convinced this will be good for us as individuals and for
our group, so I encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity
to make yourself better known to other SPUGsters.

As a side benefit, participating in this activity will make
you more aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Ingy's Kwiki
software, which by some strange coincidence will be the topic
of our next meeting, on Aug. 19. 8-}

-Tim
=======================================================
| Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim(AT)timmaher.org     | 
| SPUG Founder & Leader       spug(AT)seattleperl.com |
| Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.com     |
=======================================================

From brian at coolnamehere.com  Fri Jul 18 12:36:00 2003
From: brian at coolnamehere.com (Brian Wisti)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>


Okay, okay.  I added my member page at the SPUG kwiki.  What's next, 
you'll make us show up for meetings and respond to SPUG list mail? ;-)

- Brian Wisti
http://coolnamehere.com/

Tim Maher wrote:

>SPUGsters,
>
>For the last four months, I've been traveling around
>North America singing the praises of SPUG, and arguing
>that 2nd-Biggest is better than Biggest, when the biggest
>(London.pm) is primarily a drinking club, instead of one that
>relegates that activity to 2nd place where it belongs, after
>Perl technical discussions.
>
>But along the way various people have suggested that mailing
>list size is not the proper metric for judging Perl group
>"bigosity", but rather some index more sensitive to how actively
>those members are participating.
>
>Which brings me to my point. We announced the SPUG wiki more
>than 10 days ago, and thus far, only *six individuals* have
>taken the time to make MemberPages for themselves there.
>
>Could it possibly be true that 98% of the individuals on our
>mailing list are not even reading the posts, or if they are, too
>disinterested to brag about their modules or kids or pets and
>to post photos on a page that promises free publicity and instant
>celebrity?
>
>I hope not!
>
>  
>
[ snip ]




From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jul 18 13:02:38 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>
Message-ID: <20030718110238.A4055@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 10:36:00AM -0700, Brian Wisti wrote:
> 
> Okay, okay.  I added my member page at the SPUG kwiki.  What's next, 
> you'll make us show up for meetings and respond to SPUG list mail? ;-)
> 
> - Brian Wisti
> http://coolnamehere.com/

Sounds like an interesting idea 8-}, but we really benefit from
the occasional brilliant contributions of our "lurkers", so we
don't want to make them feel unwelcome.

My concern is that in lulls between "buffy" discussions, the
London.pm folks might notice that only 7 alleged SPUGsters were
sufficiently conscious to make MemberPages for themselves on our
Wiki Site, which might lead to calls for a recount of the last
PUG census, with "hanging chad" members excluded! 8-}


=======================================================
| Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim(AT)timmaher.org     | 
| SPUG Founder & Leader       spug(AT)seattleperl.com |
| Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.com     |
=======================================================

From mathin at mathin.com  Fri Jul 18 13:03:12 2003
From: mathin at mathin.com (Dan Ebert)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>
Message-ID: <1058551382.925.0.camel@algernon.lan.enic.cc>


Ditto :)

On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 10:36, Brian Wisti wrote:
> Okay, okay.  I added my member page at the SPUG kwiki.  What's next, 
> you'll make us show up for meetings and respond to SPUG list mail? ;-)
> 
> - Brian Wisti
> http://coolnamehere.com/
> 
> Tim Maher wrote:
> 
> >SPUGsters,
> >
> >For the last four months, I've been traveling around
> >North America singing the praises of SPUG, and arguing
> >that 2nd-Biggest is better than Biggest, when the biggest
> >(London.pm) is primarily a drinking club, instead of one that
> >relegates that activity to 2nd place where it belongs, after
> >Perl technical discussions.
> >
> >But along the way various people have suggested that mailing
> >list size is not the proper metric for judging Perl group
> >"bigosity", but rather some index more sensitive to how actively
> >those members are participating.
> >
> >Which brings me to my point. We announced the SPUG wiki more
> >than 10 days ago, and thus far, only *six individuals* have
> >taken the time to make MemberPages for themselves there.
> >
> >Could it possibly be true that 98% of the individuals on our
> >mailing list are not even reading the posts, or if they are, too
> >disinterested to brag about their modules or kids or pets and
> >to post photos on a page that promises free publicity and instant
> >celebrity?
> >
> >I hope not!
> >
> >  
> >
> [ snip ]
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 

From douglas at slugstone.net  Fri Jul 18 15:34:16 2003
From: douglas at slugstone.net (Douglas kirkland)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>

I am wondering how to add a couple more pathes to the default @INC.  This is 
not adding to @INC with your script.  For example when I run the following 
command I would like to see the directory /foo in the list.

$ perl -e 'print $_ ."\n" foreach @INC'
/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0
/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0
/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0


Thanks,

Douglas

PS I have added myself to the wiki.


From spug at ifokr.org  Fri Jul 18 15:50:55 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
Message-ID: <20030718205055.GN20893@ifokr.org>



> I am wondering how to add a couple more pathes to the default @INC.

The default in /usr/bin/perl itself?  IE without adding any
'-I/addl/path/' options or 'BEGIN { push @INC qw(/addl/path/)}'
blocks to your code?

Hmmn.  Recompile would definitely work.  Don't see anything
in Config.pm, which is where I think I would have seen it if
it weren't compiled in.  Perhaps there's some other location
you could slap it that is always used.  Let's see:


	$ strace perl -e 'print ' 2>&1 | grep open|grep -v ENOENT
	open("/etc/ld.so.cache", O_RDONLY)      = 3
	open("/usr/lib/libperl.so.5.6", O_RDONLY) = 3
	open("/lib/libdl.so.2", O_RDONLY)       = 3
	open("/lib/libm.so.6", O_RDONLY)        = 3
	open("/lib/libc.so.6", O_RDONLY)        = 3
	open("/lib/libcrypt.so.1", O_RDONLY)    = 3
	open("/dev/null", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) = 3

Nope, no libs are read by default, it's a compile-time default.

Perhaps move /usr/bin/perl  to /usr/bin/perl.real and make the following
for /usr/bin/perl


	#!/bin/sh

	exec /usr/bin/perl.real -I/addl/path1 -I/addl/path2 "$@"
	exit 1

Should do the trick.



--
Brian Hatch                  Theists think all gods
   Systems and                but theirs are false.
   Security Engineer          Atheists simply don't
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/     make an exception for
                              the last one.
Every message PGP signed
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From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com  Fri Jul 18 15:51:36 2003
From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
Message-ID: <200307182051.NAA26103@carios2.ca.boeing.com>

> I am wondering how to add a couple more pathes to the default @INC.  This i
> not adding to @INC with your script.  For example when I run the following
> command I would like to see the directory /foo in the list.

> $ perl -e 'print $_ ."\n" foreach @INC'
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0
> /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0
> /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0

You could standard suggestions:  perldoc -q 'add a directory'
or maybe:

    BEGIN{ unshift @INC => '/foo' } 

But see the mentioned faq for path benefits of 'use lib' pragma.

Rgds,
--
Charles DeRykus

From brian at coolnamehere.com  Fri Jul 18 16:05:02 2003
From: brian at coolnamehere.com (Brian Wisti)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
Message-ID: <3F1860FE.7000902@coolnamehere.com>

There's a few tricks.

    $ perl -I/path/to/added/directory
    $ export PERL5LIB="/path/to/added/directory:$PERL5LIB"

You can also use the 'use lib' pragma, but that's a runtime 
modification, so it doesn't sound like what you're looking for.  Of all 
of the options, setting the PERL5LIB environment variable seems like the 
closest to what you are asking for.  Of course, this _is_ Perl, so there 
are probably other tricks as well :-)

- Brian Wisti
http://coolnamehere.com/

Douglas kirkland wrote:

>I am wondering how to add a couple more pathes to the default @INC.  This is 
>not adding to @INC with your script.  For example when I run the following 
>command I would like to see the directory /foo in the list.
>
>$ perl -e 'print $_ ."\n" foreach @INC'
>/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
>/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0
>/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
>/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0
>/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
>/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
>/usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Douglas
>
>PS I have added myself to the wiki.
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
>POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
>ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
>MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
>WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>
>
>
>
>  
>



From creede at penguinsinthenight.com  Fri Jul 18 16:12:32 2003
From: creede at penguinsinthenight.com (Creede Lambard)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <200307182051.NAA26103@carios2.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307181408070.6215-100000@igor.penguinsinthenight.com>

'use lib' is the way to go.

  #!/usr/bin/perl

  use lib '/path/to/my/perl/directory';

Or, you can set the PERL5LIB environment variable if your're on a
Unix-ish machine (maybe even on Windows, I've never tried).

-- Creede

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com wrote:

> > I am wondering how to add a couple more pathes to the default @INC.  This i
> > not adding to @INC with your script.  For example when I run the following
> > command I would like to see the directory /foo in the list.
> 
> > $ perl -e 'print $_ ."\n" foreach @INC'
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0
> > /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0
> > /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi
> > /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.0
> 
> You could standard suggestions:  perldoc -q 'add a directory'
> or maybe:
> 
>     BEGIN{ unshift @INC => '/foo' } 
> 
> But see the mentioned faq for path benefits of 'use lib' pragma.
> 
> Rgds,
> --
> Charles DeRykus


From andrew at sweger.net  Fri Jul 18 16:14:13 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307181412470.21276-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

Personally, I use the PERL5LIB environment variable. From the perldoc
perlrun page:

PERL5LIB    A colon-separated list of directories in which
            to look for Perl library files before looking
            in the standard library and the current direc-
            tory.  Any architecture-specific directories
            under the specified locations are automati-
            cally included if they exist.  If PERL5LIB is
            not defined, PERLLIB is used.

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Douglas kirkland wrote:

> I am wondering how to add a couple more pathes to the default @INC.  This is 
> not adding to @INC with your script.  For example when I run the following 
> command I would like to see the directory /foo in the list.

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.


From david.dyck at fluke.com  Fri Jul 18 16:20:39 2003
From: david.dyck at fluke.com (David Dyck)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <3F1860FE.7000902@coolnamehere.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
	<3F1860FE.7000902@coolnamehere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181410470.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 at 14:05 -0700, Brian Wisti <brian@coolnamehere.com> wrote:

> There's a few tricks.
>
>     $ perl -I/path/to/added/directory
>     $ export PERL5LIB="/path/to/added/directory:$PERL5LIB"
>
> You can also use the 'use lib' pragma, but that's a runtime
> modification, so it doesn't sound like what you're looking for.  Of all
> of the options, setting the PERL5LIB environment variable seems like the
> closest to what you are asking for.  Of course, this _is_ Perl, so there
> are probably other tricks as well :-)

I'm sure that PERL5LIB is what you want, but the mention of "runtime"
mods reminded me of some working code that I use to modify @INC
and load a module before starting up the wrapped perl.

#include <stdio.h>
#include <unistd.h>

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
    int i;
    char *myargv[argc+3];

    myargv[0] = "pktperl";
    myargv[1] = "-I/home/hobbes/tools/perl5";
    myargv[2] = "-I/home/hobbes/tools/scripts";
    myargv[3] = "-MPktperl";
    for (i=1; i<argc; i++) {
        myargv[i+3] = argv[i];
    }
    myargv[argc+3] = 0;
    execvp("perl", myargv);
    perror("execvp");
    return 1;
}


From spug at ifokr.org  Fri Jul 18 17:00:52 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307181408070.6215-100000@igor.penguinsinthenight.com>
References: <200307182051.NAA26103@carios2.ca.boeing.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0307181408070.6215-100000@igor.penguinsinthenight.com>
Message-ID: <20030718220052.GQ20893@ifokr.org>



> 'use lib' is the way to go.
> 
>   #!/usr/bin/perl
> 
>   use lib '/path/to/my/perl/directory';

But he didn't want to modify his source files.

> Or, you can set the PERL5LIB environment variable if your're on a
> Unix-ish machine (maybe even on Windows, I've never tried).

Now *there*'s the answer!  A search throughout 'man perlrun' for
@INC, and that isn't in the PERL5?LIB sections.  Grr, I knew
there had to be something better than my hack.



--
Brian Hatch                  Hard work was never
   Systems and                actually *convicted*
   Security Engineer          of killing anyone.
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/

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From spug at ifokr.org  Fri Jul 18 17:03:40 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181410470.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
	<3F1860FE.7000902@coolnamehere.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181410470.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>
Message-ID: <20030718220340.GR20893@ifokr.org>



> I'm sure that PERL5LIB is what you want, but the mention of "runtime"
> mods reminded me of some working code that I use to modify @INC
> and load a module before starting up the wrapped perl.
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <unistd.h>
> 
> int main(int argc, char **argv)
> {
>     int i;
>     char *myargv[argc+3];
> 
>     myargv[0] = "pktperl";
>     myargv[1] = "-I/home/hobbes/tools/perl5";
>     myargv[2] = "-I/home/hobbes/tools/scripts";
>     myargv[3] = "-MPktperl";
>     for (i=1; i<argc; i++) {
>         myargv[i+3] = argv[i];
>     }
>     myargv[argc+3] = 0;
>     execvp("perl", myargv);
>     perror("execvp");
>     return 1;
> }

Which could be done much cleaner with

	$ cat perlwrapper
	#!/usr/bin/perl

	exec /usr/bin/perl, qw( -I/home/hobbes/tools/perl5
		-I/home/hobbes/tools/scripts -MPktperl), @ARGV;
	exit 1;

And then you don't need to scare people with C code on a Perl list.
;-)

(I like the idea of preprocessing perl with perl...)


Of course your scripts would need to use

	#!/usr/bin/perlwrapper

instead of 

	#!/usr/bin/perl

--
Brian Hatch                  The trouble with life
   Systems and               is there's no background music.
   Security Engineer
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/

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From david.dyck at fluke.com  Fri Jul 18 18:00:45 2003
From: david.dyck at fluke.com (David Dyck)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <20030718220340.GR20893@ifokr.org>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
	<3F1860FE.7000902@coolnamehere.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181410470.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>
	<20030718220340.GR20893@ifokr.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181534140.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 at 15:03 -0700, Brian Hatch <spug@ifokr.org> wrote:

> Which could be done much cleaner with
>
> 	$ cat perlwrapper
> 	#!/usr/bin/perl
>
> 	exec /usr/bin/perl, qw( -I/home/hobbes/tools/perl5
> 		-I/home/hobbes/tools/scripts -MPktperl), @ARGV;
> 	exit 1;
>
> And then you don't need to scare people with C code on a Perl list.
> ;-)

> Of course your scripts would need to use
> 	#!/usr/bin/perlwrapper
> instead of
> 	#!/usr/bin/perl

(perlwrapper would be cleaner if it had
 quotes around "/usr/bin/perl" so it to compile :-)

One thing that perl does, that perl scripts can't do is act as an
"#!" interpreter, and I needed my "wrapper" to behave like perl enough
that it could be treated as an interpreter, so I could call it as you
suggested with #!.  The only way to do this is with a C wrapper, since
an script that uses an interpreter (like perl or my pktperl) can't be
a script itself!

from man execve:

       execve() executes the  program  pointed  to  by  filename.
       filename  must  be either a binary executable, or a script
       starting with a line of the form "#!  interpreter  [arg]".
       In  the latter case, the interpreter must be a valid path-
       name for an executable which is not itself a script, which
       will be invoked as interpreter [arg] filename.


From spug at ifokr.org  Fri Jul 18 19:12:40 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181534140.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<200307181334.16066.douglas@slugstone.net>
	<3F1860FE.7000902@coolnamehere.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181410470.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>
	<20030718220340.GR20893@ifokr.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181534140.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>
Message-ID: <20030719001240.GA16761@ifokr.org>



> (perlwrapper would be cleaner if it had
>  quotes around "/usr/bin/perl" so it to compile :-)

(quite right, quite right.)

> One thing that perl does, that perl scripts can't do is act as an
> "#!" interpreter, and I needed my "wrapper" to behave like perl enough
> that it could be treated as an interpreter, so I could call it as you
> suggested with #!.  The only way to do this is with a C wrapper, since
> an script that uses an interpreter (like perl or my pktperl) can't be
> a script itself!
> 
> from man execve:
> 
>        execve() executes the  program  pointed  to  by  filename.
>        filename  must  be either a binary executable, or a script
>        starting with a line of the form "#!  interpreter  [arg]".
>        In  the latter case, the interpreter must be a valid path-
>        name for an executable which is not itself a script, which
>        will be invoked as interpreter [arg] filename.

Ok, next time I'll actually try my code.   I'll blame it on
having sick child at home and trying to be witty online at
the same time.  ;-)


--
Brian Hatch                  "I'm thinking .. pastels!"
   Systems and
   Security Engineer
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/

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From douglas at slugstone.net  Fri Jul 18 19:34:21 2003
From: douglas at slugstone.net (Douglas kirkland)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: add to default @INC
In-Reply-To: <20030718220340.GR20893@ifokr.org>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.51.0307181410470.18616@dd.tc.fluke.com>
	<20030718220340.GR20893@ifokr.org>
Message-ID: <200307181734.21805.douglas@slugstone.net>

Thank all,

I was chasing a rabbit down the wrong hole and it turned it did not work for 
what I was trying.  There was some good stuff that I leaned from the 
responses.

Douglas

Member of the SPUG wiki.

From jay at scherrer.com  Sun Jul 20 23:46:10 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Time for a Geek picknic?
Message-ID: <200307202146.10062.jay@scherrer.com>

My Church will be providing the grounds for the Interlug Picknic this year.
Time 12 noon till sundown.
Date: Aug. 23rd
Place: "Follow the Light" Koinonia church
1063 Hoquiam Ave. NE
Renton, Wa. 98059

RSVP: Chuck Wolber <chuckw@quantumlinux.com>

Attached is the official notice.
Jay



-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM
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From: Jay Scherrer <gimpit@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Fest-list] InterLugNIC Announce
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:08:03 -0700
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From jay at scherrer.com  Sun Jul 20 23:52:05 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Time for a Geek picknic?
Message-ID: <200307202152.05597.jay@scherrer.com>

My Church will be providing the grounds for the Interlug Picknic this year.
Time 12 noon till sundown.
Date: Aug. 23rd
Place: "Follow the Light" Koinonia church
1063 Hoquiam Ave. NE
Renton, Wa. 98059

RSVP: Chuck Wolber <chuckw@quantumlinux.com>

Attached is the official notice.
Jay



-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM


-------------- next part --------------
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From: Jay Scherrer <gimpit@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Fest-list] InterLugNIC Announce
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:08:03 -0700
Size: 4882
Url: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/attachments/20030720/ef4b505f/attachment.eml
From jay at scherrer.com  Mon Jul 21 16:59:54 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Time for a Geek picknic?
In-Reply-To: <ufzkza8vc.fsf@att.net>
References: <200307202146.10062.jay@scherrer.com> <ufzkza8vc.fsf@att.net>
Message-ID: <200307211459.54310.jay@scherrer.com>

All right:
The guys who put together the linuxFest earlier this year have decided to drop 
their keyboards for a day and hit the volley ball and Softball fields and 
tennis courts. A get together face to face and decide about next years 
linuxFest.
N'other words: group picknic featuring the north west lugs (Blug, Taclug, 
Kplug, GSlug).
Bring your barbie n chips.
# sunscreen?
RSVP: Chuck Wolber <chuckw@quantumlinux.com>
Time: noon till sundown.
Date: Sat. Aug. 23rd
Place: "Follow the Light" Koinonia church
1063 Hoquiam Ave. NE
Renton, Wa. 98059

# Next to Hazen high school Renton, Wa.

Jay Scherrer

On Monday 21 July 2003 02:05 pm, you wrote:
> Jay Scherrer <jay@scherrer.com> writes:
> > My Church will be providing the grounds for the Interlug Picknic this
> > year.
>
> Sounds like a great thing, but I don't know what Interlug is. If I
> don't know, perhaps other folks don't either, so I'd suggest a link or
> explanation back to the SPUG list.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Wolf

-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

From ben at reser.org  Tue Jul 22 14:38:04 2003
From: ben at reser.org (Ben Reser)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20030718110238.A4055@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>
	<20030718110238.A4055@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030722193804.GR2003@titanium.brain.org>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:02:38AM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
> My concern is that in lulls between "buffy" discussions, the
> London.pm folks might notice that only 7 alleged SPUGsters were
> sufficiently conscious to make MemberPages for themselves on our
> Wiki Site, which might lead to calls for a recount of the last
> PUG census, with "hanging chad" members excluded! 8-}

Yeah the problem is now everyone is doing the Wiki thing and saying "Hey
come make a page here."  I already have a home page.  I barely have time
to maintain it.  Why would I want to make another page that I won't have
time to maintain?

Frankly, I think the better thing to do is:
a) Realize that the wiki is not the only way to participate.
b) Accept that it is new and will take time to ramp up.
c) Rather than encouraging people to post pictures of their dog fluffy,
have them post useful and interesting things that relate to the
group.  This will take longer to happen, but as people come up with
things that are useful and interesting asking them to spend the time to
post it on the wiki is likely to be far more fruitful than asking people
to duplicate their personal home pages.

Besides what can Londom.pm talk about?  They don't even have a wiki yet.
At least I can't find any mention of it on their page.  ;)

-- 
Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org

"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can
no longer believe you." -- Nietzsche

From brian at coolnamehere.com  Tue Jul 22 14:47:02 2003
From: brian at coolnamehere.com (Brian Wisti)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20030722193804.GR2003@titanium.brain.org>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>	<3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>	<20030718110238.A4055@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<20030722193804.GR2003@titanium.brain.org>
Message-ID: <3F1D94B6.9020902@coolnamehere.com>

Ben Reser wrote:

>On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:02:38AM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
>  
>
>>My concern is that in lulls between "buffy" discussions, the
>>London.pm folks might notice that only 7 alleged SPUGsters were
>>sufficiently conscious to make MemberPages for themselves on our
>>Wiki Site, which might lead to calls for a recount of the last
>>PUG census, with "hanging chad" members excluded! 8-}
>>    
>>
>
>Yeah the problem is now everyone is doing the Wiki thing and saying "Hey
>come make a page here."  I already have a home page.  I barely have time
>to maintain it.  Why would I want to make another page that I won't have
>time to maintain?
>
>Frankly, I think the better thing to do is:
>a) Realize that the wiki is not the only way to participate.
>b) Accept that it is new and will take time to ramp up.
>c) Rather than encouraging people to post pictures of their dog fluffy,
>have them post useful and interesting things that relate to the
>group.  This will take longer to happen, but as people come up with
>things that are useful and interesting asking them to spend the time to
>post it on the wiki is likely to be far more fruitful than asking people
>to duplicate their personal home pages.
>
>Besides what can Londom.pm talk about?  They don't even have a wiki yet.
>At least I can't find any mention of it on their page.  ;)
>
>  
>
I think the SPUG Wiki is part useful, and also part social.  We're all 
obviously very technically skilled, and very busy - well, you guys are 
;-) - but having faces for everybody and their dog Fluffy makes it 
easier to bridge the mental gap between ASCII text cluttering my inbox 
and real live people forming a community.

Of course, I could also bridge that gap by showing up to meetings, but 
whatever - I'm shy.

This community could and should include folks who focus on technical 
aspects rather than fluffy puppies, and the Wiki could and should 
reflect that.  If you want to see useful stuff on there, write some and 
put it on the wiki.  Let the site reflect the full range of what SPUG is :-)

Oh, and London.pm seems fairly quiet at the moment.  SPUG appears to be 
much more active and hyper.  Must be the ready supply of caffeine.

- Brian W
http://coolnamehere.com/


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul 22 14:59:49 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20030722193804.GR2003@titanium.brain.org>
References: <20030718101355.A3842@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<3F183000.5000500@coolnamehere.com>
	<20030718110238.A4055@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<20030722193804.GR2003@titanium.brain.org>
Message-ID: <20030722125949.A19737@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 12:38:04PM -0700, Ben Reser wrote:
> 
> Yeah the problem is now everyone is doing the Wiki thing and saying "Hey
> come make a page here."  I already have a home page.  I barely have time
> to maintain it.  Why would I want to make another page that I won't have
> time to maintain?

You *don't need* to make a brand-new HomePage for the SPUGwiki!
Just make a link to your existing page from your BenReser page,
and if you're not too lazy 8-}, make a link to a picture of yourself
from there too.  Should take you about 23 seconds!

As an example, see Joel Grow's page, at
	http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/index.cgi?JoelG
 
> Frankly, I think the better thing to do is:
> a) Realize that the wiki is not the only way to participate.
> b) Accept that it is new and will take time to ramp up.
> c) Rather than encouraging people to post pictures of their dog fluffy,
> have them post useful and interesting things that relate to the
> group.  This will take longer to happen, but as people come up with
> things that are useful and interesting asking them to spend the time to
> post it on the wiki is likely to be far more fruitful than asking people
> to duplicate their personal home pages.

Again, it's easier than you originally thought to get your
SPUGwiki home-page going. And I don't care about seeing their
pets, I want to see photos of the SPUGsters themselves, so we can
identify each other at meetings, Costco, and Bumbershoot. It's a
community-building thing! 8-}

But there's no obligation for anybody to participate in any way on the
Wiki.  I'm just trying to gently encourage people to explore its
benefits  -- I'm not about to excommunicate anybody from SPUG for
declining to participate.
 
> Besides what can Londom.pm talk about?  They don't even have a wiki yet.
> At least I can't find any mention of it on their page.  ;)
> 
> -- 
> Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
> http://ben.reser.org

Yea, but they copy all our innovations eventually, so it's only a matter
of time! 8-{

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From james at banshee.com  Tue Jul 22 15:04:42 2003
From: james at banshee.com (James Moore)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3F1D94B6.9020902@coolnamehere.com>
Message-ID: <008701c3508c$7d439350$797ba8c0@gealach>

I'm somewhat of a lurker (go to the occasional meeting, post rarely).
Chances of me contributing to a wiki are pretty much zero.  Mailing lists
are good, but in general wikis seem like a technology in search of a
problem.

I certainly don't object to other people setting them up, but it doesn't
surprise me that they don't always get that much input.  What does a wiki
buy that a mailing list doesn't have?  (OK, I'll admit that for something
like SPUG I put the utility of pictures and pretty markup right down there
with the three-week-old Indian takeaway in my fridge.)

Am I just missing something basic?

 - James


From jgardner at jonathangardner.net  Tue Jul 22 18:10:40 2003
From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan Gardner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using wiki to develop talk
Message-ID: <200307221610.42061.jgardner@jonathangardner.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Since I am by no means an expert in the art of unit testing, not to mention 
unit testing in perl, I am exposing my talk on the wiki to let you unit 
testing experts out there enlighten me and the community. I also want your 
opinions on material you would like covered, or ideas on how to make the 
talk more engaging and interesting. (I'm not about to have a team unit 
testing session! ;-)

Here's the URL to the page:
http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/index.cgi?UnitTesting

- -- 
Jonathan Gardner
jgardner@jonathangardner.net
Live Free, Use Linux!
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From scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com  Tue Jul 22 18:22:54 2003
From: scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc. 
In-Reply-To: <008701c3508c$7d439350$797ba8c0@gealach> 
References: <008701c3508c$7d439350$797ba8c0@gealach> 
Message-ID: <20030722232409.9AF641E0B@sabami.seaslug.org>

"James Moore" <james@banshee.com> wrote:

> I certainly don't object to other people setting them up, but it doesn't
> surprise me that they don't always get that much input.  What does a wiki
> buy that a mailing list doesn't have?

One thing I can think of is that because people can edit the pages in
place, the collection of pages represent the "current state" of whatever
they are documenting. With mailing lists, you get all kinds of incremental
contributions over time and it can be hard to collect them into a "current
state".

For example, on a mailing list, I can post a "how to fool a fribnitz"
message and over time various people respond to correct me and each other.
They also correct each other. So, when someone wants to know how to fool
a fribnitz, they could search the mailing list archives and have to sift
through the entire thread to figure out what to do. With a wiki page
system, the corrections happen to the one HowToFoolAFribnitz page, so you
can go to that one place to figure that a fribnitz is easily fooled by
stick riddles...

Scott

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul 22 18:44:16 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20030722232409.9AF641E0B@sabami.seaslug.org>
References: <008701c3508c$7d439350$797ba8c0@gealach>
	<20030722232409.9AF641E0B@sabami.seaslug.org>
Message-ID: <20030722164416.B20707@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 04:22:54PM -0700, Scott Blachowicz wrote:

> stick riddles...
> 
> Scott

No!  PLEASE NO!! Don't raise that subject here!!!!!!!!
(Too many painful memories . . . )

That opic deserves it's own hierarchy of pages on the SPUG kwiki,
or perhaps even its very own Wiki.

Anybody who wants to get it rolling please feel free to make it happen.

> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com  Tue Jul 22 18:53:12 2003
From: scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc. 
In-Reply-To: <20030722164416.B20707@timji.consultix-inc.com> 
References: <008701c3508c$7d439350$797ba8c0@gealach>
	<20030722232409.9AF641E0B@sabami.seaslug.org> 
	<20030722164416.B20707@timji.consultix-inc.com> 
Message-ID: <20030722235427.5FC9B1DD9@sabami.seaslug.org>

SPUG-list-owner <tim@consultix-inc.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 04:22:54PM -0700, Scott Blachowicz wrote:
> 
> > stick riddles...
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> No!  PLEASE NO!! Don't raise that subject here!!!!!!!!
> (Too many painful memories . . . )
> 
> That opic deserves it's own hierarchy of pages on the SPUG kwiki,
> or perhaps even its very own Wiki.

Reason #2 for wiki:

As a reader, it's a lot easier to avoid certain topics if you really don't
want the noise. :)

Scott

From subs at shofixti.webtelic.com  Tue Jul 22 21:04:29 2003
From: subs at shofixti.webtelic.com (Chris Turan)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>

Hi All,

I've been searching for jobs for several months now.  I've given up on the
computer market and began looking for retail and restaurant jobs.  I've
found that many of those have been taken as well and the employers can
cherry pick who to hire.  Those jobs that aren't taken don't seem to want
to hire me because I've over-qualified and am afriad I'll just leave when
a good job turns up.

Has anyone had similar problems?  Any recommendations?  I'm keeping my
shoulder to the grindstone and am looking.  I was hoping someone might
have something to suggest.  I live in Bellevue and am looking mostly on
the Eastside.  I've been looking mostly in Bellevue so that if they
economic situation doesn't change, I can sell my car and still be able to
walk to work.

Perhaps someone has some ideas I haven't considered yet.

Thanks,
-Chris







From bob at hiltners.com  Tue Jul 22 22:24:06 2003
From: bob at hiltners.com (Bob Hiltner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: Giving up on computer jobs
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c350c9$dfd82980$0200a8c0@computer>

I was going to respond to Chris offline, but figure it's the same message
for any who're in similar straits...

It's discouraging these days, to be sure.  It's paramount to keep your
dreams alive and not "give up".  I don't know your talents, but if you do
web work and can set up a network, consider hanging out a shingle and doing
that for small businesses.  A lot of folks would like some inexpensive web
work, I'd think, and are probably scared shitless about hackers and doing it
themselves.  If you're willing to work hard and give your first few
customers an introductory break, I'll bet within a month you'd end up with
fuller pockets than hanging out at the mall and making change.  It doesn't
have to be a permanent thing, but you might get a reputation based on great
work and great value.

One fear you'll have to overcome with your charm and honesty is that you'll
move on and leave a business in the lurch.  Take extra pains to manage and
abate this risk for them.  Have a staff member liasion, for example, the
biggest power user who understands everything you're doing, even if they
couldn't do it themselves.

Mostly don't give up.  One thing you'll need to find *any* fair job is an
air of confidence and not a hint of desperation.

Also, if you do decide to do something outrageous like this, misery loves
company.  Maybe one or two others in the group with complementary
skills/business savvy would be interested in taking the leap with you and
making it happen.   Keep any group small and focused, driven and compatible.

Don't measure your worth or set your confidence bar based on  either the
1999 economy or this one.

Best of luck.
    -Bob

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Turan" <subs@shofixti.webtelic.com>
To: <spug-list@mail.pm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:04 PM
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs


> Hi All,
>
> I've been searching for jobs for several months now.  I've given up on the
> computer market and began looking for retail and restaurant jobs.  I've
> found that many of those have been taken as well and the employers can
> cherry pick who to hire.  Those jobs that aren't taken don't seem to want
> to hire me because I've over-qualified and am afriad I'll just leave when
> a good job turns up.
>
> Has anyone had similar problems?  Any recommendations?  I'm keeping my
> shoulder to the grindstone and am looking.  I was hoping someone might
> have something to suggest.  I live in Bellevue and am looking mostly on
> the Eastside.  I've been looking mostly in Bellevue so that if they
> economic situation doesn't change, I can sell my car and still be able to
> walk to work.
>
> Perhaps someone has some ideas I haven't considered yet.
>
> Thanks,
> -Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>
>
>



From andrew at sweger.net  Tue Jul 22 22:55:47 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3F1D94B6.9020902@coolnamehere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307222054390.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Brian Wisti wrote:

> Oh, and London.pm seems fairly quiet at the moment.  SPUG appears to be 
> much more active and hyper.  Must be the ready supply of caffeine.

I heard Buffy was cancelled. So there's not much else to talk about
now. ;)

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.


From andrew at sweger.net  Tue Jul 22 23:07:21 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:03 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <008701c3508c$7d439350$797ba8c0@gealach>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307222055530.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, James Moore wrote:

> I certainly don't object to other people setting them up, but it doesn't
> surprise me that they don't always get that much input.  What does a wiki
> buy that a mailing list doesn't have?  (OK, I'll admit that for something
> like SPUG I put the utility of pictures and pretty markup right down there
> with the three-week-old Indian takeaway in my fridge.)

[Editor's note: Andrew is in a less than lucid state and may seem a little
out of focus today.]

One of the values I'm finding in the Wiki is the interest it earns with
time. A bad Wiki (one that has a subject without a market[1] or one that's
hard to use) will have negative interest and lose value with time. But a
Wiki that can put at least a good nucleus together starts to draw a market
and positive feedback occurs. People keep contributing. (Of course, at
some point, we'll need negative feedback too to keep things from running
amok. That and refactoring.)

[1] I was going to say audience, but an audience takes a passive role
(what the MPAA, RIAA, Fox, etc. want). But a Wiki helps build a market of
ideas and knowledge. The mail list is excellent for the market banter,
arguing, troubleshooting, etc. Sometimes the knowledge gets lost and
sometimes someone captures it for future reference. A Wiki is just a
convenient community powered knowledge bin. You know, market's not quite
the right word either. What's the word I'm looking for?

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jul 22 23:23:09 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307222055530.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>
References: <008701c3508c$7d439350$797ba8c0@gealach>
	<Pine.LNX.4.21.0307222055530.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>
Message-ID: <20030722212309.A21660@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 09:07:21PM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, James Moore wrote:
> 
> [Editor's note: Andrew is in a less than lucid state and may seem a little
> out of focus today.]
> 
> One of the values I'm finding in the Wiki is the interest it earns with
> time. A bad Wiki (one that has a subject without a market[1] or one that's
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
How about "constituency"?

> hard to use) will have negative interest and lose value with time. But a
> Wiki that can put at least a good nucleus together starts to draw a market
> and positive feedback occurs. People keep contributing. (Of course, at
> some point, we'll need negative feedback too to keep things from running
> amok. That and refactoring.)
> 
> [1] I was going to say audience, but an audience takes a passive role
> (what the MPAA, RIAA, Fox, etc. want). But a Wiki
        helps build a market of ideas and knowledge. 
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about:
        provides a forum for developing a repository of ideas and knowledge

> arguing, troubleshooting, etc. Sometimes the knowledge gets lost and
> sometimes someone captures it for future reference. A Wiki is just a
> convenient community powered knowledge bin.
> You know, market's not quite
> the right word either. What's the word I'm looking for?

I hope the above helps . . .

> -- 
> Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
>                                 things can go wrong at once.
> 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From jay at scherrer.com  Wed Jul 23 00:48:26 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwicki and scripts?
Message-ID: <200307222248.26727.jay@scherrer.com>

Another great use for the SPUGwicki would be if someone needed help on a 
script thats giving them problems. But how would you doc the evolution?
Jay
-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

From marc.gibian at acm.org  Wed Jul 23 01:09:47 2003
From: marc.gibian at acm.org (Marc S. Gibian)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
Message-ID: <002601c350e1$0547ef90$0200a8c0@marc39ph9qz5mg>

Hi Chris,

I don't know you, so I don't know how long you've been out of school,
what degree you have, etc. But, I can make some general comments.

Job searches generally take more than a couple of months. This was true
even before the crash of the software industry, and even more true now
while its still in a depression. The more experience you have, the
longer you should expect a job search to take. This is simply because
employers want to assure a better match between the position they are
trying to fill and the long list of qualifications a more senior person
will have. I know that I first found this rather counter to "common
sense." I thought that lots of experience would mean I met more of the
requirements for a broader set of positions.

The single biggest hurdle in today's software job market is getting your
resume seen. It used to be that you spent enormous amounts of effort to
tune your resume so it was absolutely perfect. Even to the point of
fully customizing it for each specific position. This is pointless in
today's software job market. No one will even SEE your resume, except by
a very low probability chance, as every opening now see mountains of
resumes from applicants. Even cover letters have difficulty getting read
when there 800 or more for the poor recruiter to work their way through.

You should have heard what I'm about to say hundreds of times by now,
but I'll say it again because it is absolutely true, even more so in the
current software job market. The single best investment of your time is
in Networking! That is how you get your resume read. Yes, you should
have a solid resume, well put together, that accurately represents your
skills, knowledge, and experience. But, it is through networking that
you will get people to actually LOOK at it.

How do you network? Well, you talk to everyone you can think of, and
then lots of people you hadn't. Go to as many professional meetings you
can. Go to as many meetings of any kind, so long as you have an interest
in the topic. Do the things you like to do in life, but make sure that
while you are doing them you talk to the people around you. Not only do
they also like doing those things, which helps them relate to you, but
they also work (well, unless they are hunting for a job, in which case
they might be good to talk with as they may be using different
strategies than you, or know of different meetings, etc), and that means
they might know of an open position you might be a good fit for.

Before you say, oh, he's just read a lot of articles on this, let me
share my recent personal experience...

Not all that long ago I was laid off for the first time in my 24+ year
career. In the past I had always had a strong enough network at work
that I heard of any threat to my position long before action, and thus
was able to voluntarily make a move before it became involuntary. It was
a shock to me. I had just finished shipping a major project and had just
finished identifying the work needed to address all remaining issues in
that area of the business's systems. Of all the time I had worked at
that company, I was feeling as safe as I ever had, feeling I had finally
clearly shown my worth. Surely they wouldn't layoff someone with MY
record of high performance.

Well, I was laid off in February of 2002. I had no contacts in the
software industry here in the Seattle area at that time. My job had
consumed every waking minute not taken by family up to that point. I was
in shock.

I realized, and this took a lot of support from my friends, that I
needed to build a network ASAP. I started investigating the software
community here in Seattle to find what meetings took place. You'd be
surprised what I found, there is a LOT of activity here:

ACM - There is a very active and interesting local chapter of SIGCHI
here in Seattle.

IEEE - You'll find a wide range of local IEEE chapters, though if you're
a software person, you are probably far more interested in the local
Computer Society chapter meetings. People attending these have the
highest gadget rating of all the meetings. It?s the only place where in
return to offering up my card, the response was that they'd be happy to
"IR" theirs to me (sorry, I don?t have ANY of those fun gadgets... its
hardcopy for me, though personal business cards can be had for the price
of shipping and handling from www.vistaprint.com ... by the way, DO make
sure you have a personal business card, preferably with your three or
four strongest skills printed right there on the front along with your
name and contact info... when you meet all these people, and even your
friends, you want to give them a card. Say, why not two or three and ask
them to pass the extras along to THEIR friends).

WSA - Yeah, you probably think WSA stands for the Washington Software
Alliance. Well, it doesn't. It doesn't stand for anything. They want to
be a more general technology organization than simply Software. But,
they have lots of good meetings. Security, Software Development (usually
including an annual talk by Scott Meyers, always a treat... he's a very
entertaining speaker even if you couldn't care less for the topic, and
usually the topic is also interesting), even Wireless and Games! If
you?re a mid to senior level person, seriously consider the monthly
dinner meetings.

There are plenty of others... C++, Perl (yup, I haven't forgotten SPUG),
Extreme Programming... far more than you can even attend. So, how many
have you been to since you became unemployed? Do more.

I found a new job in roughly six months, about what my last voluntary
job search had taken. How did I find that opening? I started talking
with someone in the bar line at a WSA dinner meeting. They had heard of
an opening with some unique requirements that, even in our five minutes
of conversation, they felt I would match with well. So that person took
my card (well, at least two), and passed it along to the company with
the position. I got a phone call, and before I knew it I had a phone
interview and full interview not long after that.

Finally, I can't resist giving a friend a plug. One of the people I met
during my stretch of unemployment was like you. They gave up on their
software career. The difference, though, is that rather than wait for
their job search to bear fruit, even in non-computing jobs, they started
their own non-computing business, though with a strong high-tech twist.
They opened a hotdog stand. Well, a vegetarian hotdog stand... well, a
vegetarian hotdog joint & cyber caf? to be specific. The place is
Cyber-Dogs, which you'll find online at http://www.cyber-dogs.com. Go
visit them IN PERSON. Grab a dog (or something else), talk with them,
and make sure they know you are unemployed (there's a discount if you're
unemployed). You never know who you might meet. Maybe someone who is on
a job search and heard of just the perfect position for YOU.

While you're there, say hi to Tania and tell her Marc Gibian sent you.

So, that's more than I had intended to write. But, I hope some of you
find it helpful or useful. If not, then sorry for taking your time. But,
I know how hard it is to keep going when you are unemployed and things
just don't seem to be happening.

There ARE jobs out there. Jobs you are well qualified for that you will
enjoy. The trick is to get your resume READ by someone hiring for one of
them.

Feel free to contact me if you'd like to talk more or if you have
questions. There is much more I can suggest that I found helpful, but
I'm out of time for tonight.

Let us know how you make out. How many meeting did you attend last week?
This week? Next week? How many cards did you hand out?

Hang in there. We're pulling for you.

-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org
[mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org] On Behalf Of Chris Turan
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:04 PM
To: spug-list@mail.pm.org
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs

Hi All,

I've been searching for jobs for several months now.  I've given up on
the
computer market and began looking for retail and restaurant jobs.  I've
found that many of those have been taken as well and the employers can
cherry pick who to hire.  Those jobs that aren't taken don't seem to
want
to hire me because I've over-qualified and am afriad I'll just leave
when
a good job turns up.

Has anyone had similar problems?  Any recommendations?  I'm keeping my
shoulder to the grindstone and am looking.  I was hoping someone might
have something to suggest.  I live in Bellevue and am looking mostly on
the Eastside.  I've been looking mostly in Bellevue so that if they
economic situation doesn't change, I can sell my car and still be able
to
walk to work.

Perhaps someone has some ideas I haven't considered yet.

Thanks,
-Chris






_____________________________________________________________
Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org




From warner at oz.net  Tue Jul 22 19:11:52 2003
From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
Message-ID: <3F1DD2C8.651BA1FE@oz.net>

Well Chris,
    I have been looking for over 2-1/2 years for a Unix/Linux
software development position.
Have not managed to get a single interview this year, after thousands of
resumes sent,
and hundreds of phone calls made.
http://sense-warner-2.oz.net/resume.html
My advice is change careers before you starve.
I've tried the networking thing, only problem with those user groups and SIGs

is that half the people there are unemployed ( meet your competition ).
Check out the banter on http://seattle.craigslist.org (job sections pretty
sad).
At this point I have given up, and I'm trying to sell Real Estate.

Chris Turan wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I've been searching for jobs for several months now.  I've given up on the
> computer market and began looking for retail and restaurant jobs.  I've
> found that many of those have been taken as well and the employers can
> cherry pick who to hire.  Those jobs that aren't taken don't seem to want
> to hire me because I've over-qualified and am afriad I'll just leave when
> a good job turns up.
>
> Has anyone had similar problems?  Any recommendations?  I'm keeping my
> shoulder to the grindstone and am looking.  I was hoping someone might
> have something to suggest.  I live in Bellevue and am looking mostly on
> the Eastside.  I've been looking mostly in Bellevue so that if they
> economic situation doesn't change, I can sell my car and still be able to
> walk to work.
>
> Perhaps someone has some ideas I haven't considered yet.
>
> Thanks,
> -Chris
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org


From scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com  Wed Jul 23 09:31:02 2003
From: scott+spug at mail.dsab.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc. 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307222055530.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net> 
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307222055530.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net> 
Message-ID: <20030723143217.35BF41E1E@sabami.seaslug.org>

Andrew Sweger <andrew@sweger.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, James Moore wrote:
> 
> > I certainly don't object to other people setting them up, but it doesn't
> > surprise me that they don't always get that much input.  What does a wiki
> > buy that a mailing list doesn't have?  (OK, I'll admit that for something
> > like SPUG I put the utility of pictures and pretty markup right down there
> > with the three-week-old Indian takeaway in my fridge.)
> 
> [Editor's note: Andrew is in a less than lucid state and may seem a little
> out of focus today.]
> 
> One of the values I'm finding in the Wiki is the interest it earns with
> time. A bad Wiki (one that has a subject without a market[1] or one that's

How about "community support" instead of "a market"?

> hard to use) will have negative interest and lose value with time. But a
> Wiki that can put at least a good nucleus together starts to draw a market
> and positive feedback occurs. People keep contributing. (Of course, at
> some point, we'll need negative feedback too to keep things from running
> amok. That and refactoring.)

Scott

From jgardner at jonathangardner.net  Wed Jul 23 09:35:24 2003
From: jgardner at jonathangardner.net (Jonathan Gardner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
Message-ID: <200307230735.25882.jgardner@jonathangardner.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday 22 July 2003 19:04, Chris Turan wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've been searching for jobs for several months now.  I've given up on the
> computer market and began looking for retail and restaurant jobs.  I've
> found that many of those have been taken as well and the employers can
> cherry pick who to hire.  Those jobs that aren't taken don't seem to want
> to hire me because I've over-qualified and am afriad I'll just leave when
> a good job turns up.
>

I'm having the opposite experience from you. I've got a great job, and there 
are open positions all around me in other companies.

What are your skills/experience? Have you applied to Amazon? Have you tried 
the following companies:
 - CarDomain Networks (cardomain.net)
 - White Pages (now W3Data) (whitepages.com)

I know they are both looking for perl developers.

> Has anyone had similar problems?  Any recommendations?  I'm keeping my
> shoulder to the grindstone and am looking.  I was hoping someone might
> have something to suggest.  I live in Bellevue and am looking mostly on
> the Eastside.  I've been looking mostly in Bellevue so that if they
> economic situation doesn't change, I can sell my car and still be able to
> walk to work.
>

Yes. My view of the economy right now is that it is bouncing back. There are 
more jobs now than there were a month ago, and the quality is increasing. 
Hopefully, we'll be able to get past the equilibrium point soon and our 
salaries can skyrocket again.

Tips:

1) Cheer up. No one likes to talk to someone who has given up. I mean, if you 
were looking for developers to implement your projects, would you hire the 
defeatist or the bright smily guy? It'll take a lot of experience and skills 
to overcome a defeatist attitude.

2) Keep participating in the OS community. Write some perl modules, debug some 
others, and write docs for still more. When it comes to interview time, you 
can show them what you've done. Perl shops will respect your effort.

3) Get/Keep your skills up. When it comes interview time, you'd better be able 
to explain what a hashref is and why a blessed scalar doesn't make a very 
good base class object.

4) Keep in contact with your ex-co-workers or college buddies. They have more 
insight into the industry than you will, especially if they still have a job.

5) Work on your resume. Make sure that it gets a single point across (sniper 
approach) rather than a mess of unrelated topics (shotgun approach). For 
example, my resume reads "If you use apache and mod_perl, you need me on your 
team."

6) Call the recruiters at the companies that use perl, or whatever technology 
you are truly interested in. If they don't have a job yet, ask them when they 
will. If it's not soon, ask them who *IS* hiring. Bonus points if they like 
you. They will call YOU and tell YOU when a job is coming up.

7) Graduating from a university means that the university's reputation is at 
stake. If you can't find a job (or get into grad school), they have failed! 
Work with their employment services and exploit them as much as possible.

- -- 
Jonathan Gardner <jgardner@jonathangardner.net>
(was jgardn@alumni.washington.edu)
Live Free, Use Linux!
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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jul 23 12:13:31 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard
Message-ID: <20030723101331.A24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>

SPUGsters,

Brian Hatch and I were planning to have a private lunch together
today, but in a fit of gregariousness and open-source-ity we've
decided to invite all hungry geeks who might be available. So if
you're free from the shackles of wage-slavery (i.e., unemployed),
or doing your job in your underwear in your home office (like
me), or can sneak away from your Real Job at the appointed time,
come on down!

	Thai Siam
	NW 83rd St and 15th Ave. NW  98117-5465
	(North Ballard/South Crown Hill)
	12:30 pm
	784-5465
Map: http://seattle.citysearch.com/profile/10793332/?cslink=cs_boc_profile_names

Look for a guy wearing bright orange hair and beard; that will be me
(As depicted in: http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/index.cgi?TimMaher).

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From brian at coolnamehere.com  Wed Jul 23 12:43:33 2003
From: brian at coolnamehere.com (Brian Wisti)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard
In-Reply-To: <20030723101331.A24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030723101331.A24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <3F1EC945.8070407@coolnamehere.com>

Drat.  Wish I could make that particular lunch.  Oh well, sounds like 
fun.  You folks enjoy, I'm gonna go work on the car now :-)

- Brian Wisti
http://coolnamehere.com/


Tim Maher wrote:

>SPUGsters,
>
>Brian Hatch and I were planning to have a private lunch together
>today, but in a fit of gregariousness and open-source-ity we've
>decided to invite all hungry geeks who might be available. So if
>you're free from the shackles of wage-slavery (i.e., unemployed),
>or doing your job in your underwear in your home office (like
>me), or can sneak away from your Real Job at the appointed time,
>come on down!
>
>	Thai Siam
>	NW 83rd St and 15th Ave. NW  98117-5465
>	(North Ballard/South Crown Hill)
>	12:30 pm
>	784-5465
>Map: http://seattle.citysearch.com/profile/10793332/?cslink=cs_boc_profile_names
>
>Look for a guy wearing bright orange hair and beard; that will be me
>(As depicted in: http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/index.cgi?TimMaher).
>
>-Tim
>*------------------------------------------------------------*
>| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
>| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
>*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
>|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
>*------------------------------------------------------------*
>_____________________________________________________________
>Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
>POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
>ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
>MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
>WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>
>
>
>
>  
>



From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jul 23 17:22:24 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard
In-Reply-To: <20030723101331.A24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030723101331.A24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030723152224.E24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>


Lunch report:  7 people showed up, from as far away as Mercer Island
and West Seattle, and a good time was had by all. And we made some
new friends, and learned new things from each other.

Anybody who feels an inclination for company, feel free to
post a time and a place, and arrange your own informal gathering.

-Tim

On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 10:13:31AM -0700, Tim Maher wrote:
> SPUGsters,
> 
> Brian Hatch and I were planning to have a private lunch together
> today, but in a fit of gregariousness and open-source-ity we've
> decided to invite all hungry geeks who might be available. So if
> you're free from the shackles of wage-slavery (i.e., unemployed),
> or doing your job in your underwear in your home office (like
> me), or can sneak away from your Real Job at the appointed time,
> come on down!
> 
> 	Thai Siam
> 	NW 83rd St and 15th Ave. NW  98117-5465
> 	(North Ballard/South Crown Hill)
> 	12:30 pm
> 	784-5465
> Map: http://seattle.citysearch.com/profile/10793332/?cslink=cs_boc_profile_names
> 
> Look for a guy wearing bright orange hair and beard; that will be me
> (As depicted in: http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/index.cgi?TimMaher).

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From asim at pair.com  Wed Jul 23 20:40:02 2003
From: asim at pair.com (Asim Jalis)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <002601c350e1$0547ef90$0200a8c0@marc39ph9qz5mg>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<002601c350e1$0547ef90$0200a8c0@marc39ph9qz5mg>
Message-ID: <20030724014002.GA9072@wokkil.pair.com>

On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 11:09:47PM -0700, Marc S. Gibian wrote:
> I don't know you, so I don't know how long you've been out of
> school, what degree you have, etc. But, I can make some general
> comments.

This is good advice. It might be interesting to have a SPUG
meeting brainstorming on job searching tips. There is a pattern
for this called the fishbowl in which at most 5 can be on the
stage at any one time. 

If anyone wants to ask a question or make a comment he goes to
the stage and the person who has been there the longest leaves.

It's basically a self-organizing panel discussion. I've seen it
work quite well several times.


Asim

From webstriss at bantychicken.com  Thu Jul 24 06:23:19 2003
From: webstriss at bantychicken.com (Jos)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: Re: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard
References: <20030723101331.A24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<20030723152224.E24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <001901c351d5$fd3e2c60$5ae84b43@compuvision>

I wish I could have been there. I read about the lunch meeting after the fact, in the afternoon. I am new here at the SPUG site. Just joined up a couple of days ago. My name is Jos Brown, and I live down just a little South of Tacoma. Hope to meet you all one day.

Jos
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tim Maher 
  To: spug-list@pm.org 
  Cc: Tim Maher 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:22 PM
  Subject: SPUG: Re: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard



  Lunch report:  7 people showed up, from as far away as Mercer Island
  and West Seattle, and a good time was had by all. And we made some
  new friends, and learned new things from each other.

  Anybody who feels an inclination for company, feel free to
  post a time and a place, and arrange your own informal gathering.

  -Tim
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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Thu Jul 24 13:07:41 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Next Open-Sauce Lunch
Message-ID: <20030724110741.A32316@timji.consultix-inc.com>

Because yesterday's event was so well attended (especially
considering the short notice), and so many people indicated
they would have attended given more advance notice, I've
scheduled another for next Wednesday. The eatery will be the
Golden City restaurant, in Darkest Ballard, which is very good
and also a great value (a huge mound of food for $5; it's 2.3
meals for me!).

See spugwiki.perlocity.org, under "Social Events", for more
details, and to RSVP.

Hope to see you there!

-Tim
=======================================================
| Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim(AT)timmaher.org     | 
| SPUG Founder & Leader       spug(AT)seattleperl.com |
| Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.com     |
=======================================================

From webstriss at bantychicken.com  Thu Jul 24 13:08:12 2003
From: webstriss at bantychicken.com (Jos)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: Re: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard
References: <20030723101331.A24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<20030723152224.E24071@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<000f01c351a2$1ddd4ca0$eecb4b43@compuvision>
	<20030724100132.A32149@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <001001c3520e$8cabe080$83e84b43@compuvision>

Okay thanks, will do : )

Jos
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tim Maher 
  To: Jos 
  Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:01 AM
  Subject: Re: Re: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard


  On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 10:12:00PM -0700, Jos wrote:
  > I wish I could have been there. I read about the lunch meeting after the fact,
  > in the afternoon. I am new here at the SPUG site. Just joined up a couple of
  > days ago. My name is Jos Brown, and I live down just a little South of Tacoma.
  > Hope to meet you all one day.

  Welcome!  Please make a home-page for yourself at spugwiki.perlocity.org.
  =======================================================
  | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim(AT)timmaher.org     | 
  | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug(AT)seattleperl.com |
  | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.com     |
  =======================================================

  > 
  > Jos
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Tim Maher 
  >   To: spug-list@pm.org 
  >   Cc: Tim Maher 
  >   Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:22 PM
  >   Subject: SPUG: Re: Open-Source Lunch Today, Ballard
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   Lunch report:  7 people showed up, from as far away as Mercer Island
  >   and West Seattle, and a good time was had by all. And we made some
  >   new friends, and learned new things from each other.
  > 
  >   Anybody who feels an inclination for company, feel free to
  >   post a time and a place, and arrange your own informal gathering.
  > 
  >   -Tim
  > 
  >   On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 10:13:31AM -0700, Tim Maher wrote:
  >   > SPUGsters,
  >   > 
  >   > Brian Hatch and I were planning to have a private lunch together
  >   > today, but in a fit of gregariousness and open-source-ity we've
  >   > decided to invite all hungry geeks who might be available. So if
  >   > you're free from the shackles of wage-slavery (i.e., unemployed),
  >   > or doing your job in your underwear in your home office (like
  >   > me), or can sneak away from your Real Job at the appointed time,
  >   > come on down!
  >   > 
  >   > Thai Siam
  >   > NW 83rd St and 15th Ave. NW  98117-5465
  >   > (North Ballard/South Crown Hill)
  >   > 12:30 pm
  >   > 784-5465
  >   > Map: http://seattle.citysearch.com/profile/10793332/?cslink=cs_boc_profile_names
  >   > 
  >   > Look for a guy wearing bright orange hair and beard; that will be me
  >   > (As depicted in: http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/index.cgi?TimMaher).
  > 
  >   -Tim
  >   *------------------------------------------------------------*
  >   | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
  >   | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
  >   *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
  >   |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
  >   *------------------------------------------------------------*
  >   _____________________________________________________________
  >   Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
  >   POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
  >   ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
  >   MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
  >   WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
  > 

  -- 

  -Tim
  *------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
  | tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
  *+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
  |  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
  *------------------------------------------------------------*
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From shawnw at speakeasy.org  Thu Jul 24 19:49:27 2003
From: shawnw at speakeasy.org (Shawn Wagner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <200307230735.25882.jgardner@jonathangardner.net>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<200307230735.25882.jgardner@jonathangardner.net>
Message-ID: <20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>

On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 07:35:24AM -0700, Jonathan Gardner wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Tuesday 22 July 2003 19:04, Chris Turan wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've been searching for jobs for several months now.  I've given up on the
> > computer market and began looking for retail and restaurant jobs.  I've
> > found that many of those have been taken as well and the employers can
> > cherry pick who to hire.  Those jobs that aren't taken don't seem to want
> > to hire me because I've over-qualified and am afriad I'll just leave when
> > a good job turns up.
> >
> 
> I'm having the opposite experience from you. I've got a great job, and there 
> are open positions all around me in other companies.
> 
> What are your skills/experience? Have you applied to Amazon? Have you tried 
> the following companies:
>  - CarDomain Networks (cardomain.net)
>  - White Pages (now W3Data) (whitepages.com)
> 
> I know they are both looking for perl developers.

There's a point a couple of us have reached, with the most recent paying
computer-related work on our resumes several years in the past, and the
current User Friendly storyline being all too familiar, where you wonder why
a company that's hiring would even bother with us when there's so many other
applicants. Results of job hunting tend to reinforce that attitude. It's not
any fun. My advice: Take something else you're interested in and work on
changing careers.

Enough depressing talk. Can we have more perl questions? :)

Hmm. *ponder ponder*

Does anyone actually use English to avoid the line-noise variables?

-- 
Shawn Wagner
shawnw@speakeasy.org

From asim at pair.com  Thu Jul 24 19:52:40 2003
From: asim at pair.com (Asim Jalis)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<200307230735.25882.jgardner@jonathangardner.net>
	<20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>

On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 05:49:27PM -0700, Shawn Wagner wrote:
> Enough depressing talk. Can we have more perl questions? :)

I have written a small Perl application that does some number
crunching and it's a command line utility. Command line tools
look awful on Windows. So I was thinking of prettying it up with
a GUI. The simplest thing here seemed to put it into the
c:\inetpub\scripts directory, wrap some HTML around it and then
run it as a localhost CGI script (through IIS). This works well
since HTML is Perl's GUI.

Here's the problem in this happy story. What if the machine does
not have IIS? How do I run this as a localhost CGI script in that
case? Are there tiny web servers that can be configured to just
run a single (Perl) program? I want to keep the machine secure,
and at the same time use a local web server as a cheap way to get
a GUI.

Any ideas? Also are there any issues I should be aware of that I
am not thinking about?


Asim

From jay at scherrer.com  Thu Jul 24 21:50:24 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>
	<20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
Message-ID: <200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>

On Thursday 24 July 2003 05:52 pm, Asim Jalis wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 05:49:27PM -0700, Shawn Wagner wrote:
> > Enough depressing talk. Can we have more perl questions? :)
>
> I have written a small Perl application that does some number
> crunching and it's a command line utility. Command line tools
> look awful on Windows. So I was thinking of prettying it up with
> a GUI. The simplest thing here seemed to put it into the
> c:\inetpub\scripts directory, wrap some HTML around it and then
> run it as a localhost CGI script (through IIS). This works well
> since HTML is Perl's GUI.
>
> Here's the problem in this happy story. What if the machine does
> not have IIS? How do I run this as a localhost CGI script in that
> case? Are there tiny web servers that can be configured to just
> run a single (Perl) program? I want to keep the machine secure,
> and at the same time use a local web server as a cheap way to get
> a GUI.
>
> Any ideas? Also are there any issues I should be aware of that I
> am not thinking about?
>
>
> Asim
The Perl Cookbook has a sample script running a test web server as a socket. I 
always wondered if this would work for distributed programs. Could this work?
Jay

-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

From spug at ifokr.org  Thu Jul 24 22:36:35 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>
	<20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
	<200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>
Message-ID: <20030725033635.GA10541@ifokr.org>



> > So I was thinking of prettying it up with
> > a GUI. The simplest thing here seemed to put it into the
> > c:\inetpub\scripts directory, wrap some HTML around it and then
> > run it as a localhost CGI script (through IIS). This works well
> > since HTML is Perl's GUI.

What about Perl/TK?  That's a lot more interactive if you want
a GUI.  Clicks are immediately usable, rather than generating
a new HTTP request.  I *think* TK works in windows perl...
At worst you could use cygwin's version.



--
Brian Hatch                  I have no cognitive
   Systems and                powers.  It's amazing
   Security Engineer          that I'm respirating.
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/     --bree

Every message PGP signed
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From brian at coolnamehere.com  Thu Jul 24 22:52:29 2003
From: brian at coolnamehere.com (Brian Wisti)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725033635.GA10541@ifokr.org>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>	<20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>	<20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>	<200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>
	<20030725033635.GA10541@ifokr.org>
Message-ID: <3F20A97C.8090803@coolnamehere.com>

Brian Hatch wrote:

>What about Perl/TK?  That's a lot more interactive if you want
>a GUI.  Clicks are immediately usable, rather than generating
>a new HTTP request.  I *think* TK works in windows perl...
>At worst you could use cygwin's version.
>
Perl/Tk can be compiled under Cygwin, and it's included in the 
Activestate Perl distribution.

- Brian Wisti
http://coolnamehere.com/



From jay at scherrer.com  Thu Jul 24 23:08:07 2003
From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725033635.GA10541@ifokr.org>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>
	<20030725033635.GA10541@ifokr.org>
Message-ID: <200307242108.07136.jay@scherrer.com>

On Thursday 24 July 2003 08:36 pm, Brian Hatch wrote:
> > > So I was thinking of prettying it up with
> > > a GUI. The simplest thing here seemed to put it into the
> > > c:\inetpub\scripts directory, wrap some HTML around it and then
> > > run it as a localhost CGI script (through IIS). This works well
> > > since HTML is Perl's GUI.
>
> What about Perl/TK?  That's a lot more interactive if you want
> a GUI.  Clicks are immediately usable, rather than generating
> a new HTTP request.  I *think* TK works in windows perl...
> At worst you could use cygwin's version.
>
And if you are not comfortable with the Tk scripting, Try specPerl.
A GUI to create wysywig Perl::Tk scripts.
Jay

-- 
Personalized e-mail and domain names:
<http://netidentity.com/BI3CCYFM

From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com  Thu Jul 24 23:34:17 2003
From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
Message-ID: <200307250434.VAA29797@carios2.ca.boeing.com>

> Here's the problem in this happy story. What if the machine does
> not have IIS? How do I run this as a localhost CGI script in that
> case? Are there tiny web servers that can be configured to just
> run a single (Perl) program? I want to keep the machine secure,
> and at the same time use a local web server as a cheap way to get
> a GUI.

> Any ideas? Also are there any issues I should be aware of that I
> am not thinking about?

Special purpose web servers can be written in just a few
lines of Perl. But, if you don't need one that small, you 
might just try indigoperl - a free Win32 binary Apache distro 
plus Perl itself:

http://www.indigostar.com/indigoperl.htm

The setup was as friendly as ActiveState's and was fully 
cross-compatible with ActiveState's PPM packages.  

A refreshing alternative to the torturous (IMO) IIS 
configuration drill. 

Rgds,
--
Charles DeRykus

From yrob at mail.crpower.com  Thu Jul 24 23:41:13 2003
From: yrob at mail.crpower.com (Robert S)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
	<200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>
Message-ID: <200307242141.13830.yrob@mail.crpower.com>

About a month ago, I thought of an idea of running a local script-server, as 
opposed to a web server.  The idea behind it is sort of what you are 
describing here.

What would make this so popular is that it would provide much more GUI 
functionality and involvement to Linux.  Many GUI scripts would be designed 
for regular users to run in order to do specific tasks, because non-scripters 
usually will avoid many command line utilities.

Who would design these scripts?  PERL scripters, PHP scripters, and so on.  
Why?  To promote the usage of Linux.  Why should a person write a script 
instead of a compiled program?  Putting aside cross-platform issues, it's so 
much faster and easier to write and tweak scripts.  The output would be in 
HTML for the user load through their browser, and would use the script server 
as a gateway to the script.

I think it should be written in C/C++.  Would anyone like to work on such a 
project or know anyone that would like to?

Robert Seaborn
yrob@mail.crpower.com
http://www.crpower.com


From: Jay Scherrer <jay@scherrer.com>
Date: Thursday 24 July 2003 19:50
To: Asim Jalis <asim@pair.com>, spug-list@mail.pm.org
Subject: Re: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI

> On Thursday 24 July 2003 05:52 pm, Asim Jalis wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 05:49:27PM -0700, Shawn Wagner wrote:
> > > Enough depressing talk. Can we have more perl questions? :)
> >
> > I have written a small Perl application that does some number
> > crunching and it's a command line utility. Command line tools
> > look awful on Windows. So I was thinking of prettying it up with
> > a GUI. The simplest thing here seemed to put it into the
> > c:\inetpub\scripts directory, wrap some HTML around it and then
> > run it as a localhost CGI script (through IIS). This works well
> > since HTML is Perl's GUI.
> >
> > Here's the problem in this happy story. What if the machine does
> > not have IIS? How do I run this as a localhost CGI script in that
> > case? Are there tiny web servers that can be configured to just
> > run a single (Perl) program? I want to keep the machine secure,
> > and at the same time use a local web server as a cheap way to get
> > a GUI.
> >
> > Any ideas? Also are there any issues I should be aware of that I
> > am not thinking about?
> >
> >
> > Asim
>
> The Perl Cookbook has a sample script running a test web server as a
> socket. I always wondered if this would work for distributed programs.
> Could this work? Jay

From spug at ifokr.org  Thu Jul 24 23:54:59 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <200307242141.13830.yrob@mail.crpower.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
	<200307241950.24659.jay@scherrer.com>
	<200307242141.13830.yrob@mail.crpower.com>
Message-ID: <20030725045459.GI10541@ifokr.org>



> About a month ago, I thought of an idea of running a local script-server, as 
> opposed to a web server.  The idea behind it is sort of what you are 
> describing here.

Explain quickly, however, how this differs from a CGI being accessed
by a web browser.  Since you're outputting to HTML, the browser is
required, so what does this offer that a CGI/PHP/etc enabled server
doesn't?


Not critizing, just trying to understand.


--
Brian Hatch                  "WindowsME is what you would get if
   Systems and                you aborted Windows98 and Windows
   Security Engineer          For Workgroups' Love Child and then
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/     dropped it on it's head multiple times
                              as a metaphorical baby." -Alex B.
Every message PGP signed
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From yrob at mail.crpower.com  Fri Jul 25 00:55:00 2003
From: yrob at mail.crpower.com (Robert S)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725045459.GI10541@ifokr.org>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<200307242141.13830.yrob@mail.crpower.com>
	<20030725045459.GI10541@ifokr.org>
Message-ID: <200307242255.00799.yrob@mail.crpower.com>

No difference.  It would be using a CGI/PHP/etc script accessed through a 
browser.  Sorry that I didn't clarify it.  It's just that I think users would 
prefer to have something they can run locally without worrying about the 
security concerns and configurations of a web server.  Why open it up to the 
outside world if you don't have to?  Since it runs locally, then the user can 
use their own user and group privileges rather than "nobody".  I know sticky 
bits and wrappers can be used, but what average user wants to deal with those 
complicated issues and still worry about related security concerns?

Another thing that I should have included was my preference for having an 
actual script server as a compiled executable rather running PERL through 
PERL.  Plain and simple, compiled programs run faster.  Executables can be 
designed to efficiently run as daemons in order to handle more than one task 
at a time.

I'd like to stress that simplicity would be a priority since many of the end 
users of the scripts could very likely be people not familiar with script 
writing, installing and configuration, and command line utilities.  A 
familiar web interface (GUI) is something that they would prefer.  So this 
daemon should be designed to easily install and configure to begin with.

Robert Seaborn

From: Brian Hatch <spug@ifokr.org>
Date: Thursday 24 July 2003 21:54
To: Robert S <yrob@mail.crpower.com>
Subject: Re: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI

> > About a month ago, I thought of an idea of running a local script-server,
> > as opposed to a web server.  The idea behind it is sort of what you are
> > describing here.
>
> Explain quickly, however, how this differs from a CGI being accessed
> by a web browser.  Since you're outputting to HTML, the browser is
> required, so what does this offer that a CGI/PHP/etc enabled server
> doesn't?
>
>
> Not critizing, just trying to understand.
>
>
> --
> Brian Hatch                  "WindowsME is what you would get if
>    Systems and                you aborted Windows98 and Windows
>    Security Engineer          For Workgroups' Love Child and then
> http://www.ifokr.org/bri/     dropped it on it's head multiple times
>                               as a metaphorical baby." -Alex B.
> Every message PGP signed

From james at banshee.com  Fri Jul 25 01:23:44 2003
From: james at banshee.com (James Moore)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725045459.GI10541@ifokr.org>
Message-ID: <002501c35275$4d4562b0$797ba8c0@gealach>

I'd say the big thing would be zero configuration.  Your "server" would just
start like

perl fooserver.pl --port 12345

No need for setting up a "real" HTTP server.

 - James

> -----Original Message-----
> From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]
> On Behalf Of Brian Hatch
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:55 PM
> To: Robert S
> Cc: spug-list@mail.pm.org; Jay@scherrer.com
> Subject: Re: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
> 
> Explain quickly, however, how this differs from a CGI being accessed
> by a web browser.  Since you're outputting to HTML, the browser is
> required, so what does this offer that a CGI/PHP/etc enabled server
> doesn't?
> 


From davidinnes at chicagoscience.com  Fri Jul 25 01:52:12 2003
From: davidinnes at chicagoscience.com (David Innes (CSG))
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c35279$4a164600$0300000a@converger.net>


> > Command line tools look awful on Windows

Hmm.  I suppose the numbers you want to crunch are too proprietary and/or
local for you to put the app on *your* web server and let users access that.

Since the DOS shell actually started out as, well, a shell, there are
actually tons of full-screen text protocols you could probably play with to
build something yourself.  (I just checked and a 13-year-old version of DOS
Word still runs on my W2K box so all the old DOS screen hooks must still be
lurking around.)

On CPAN there's a module called PerlVision that's a collection of text-mode
UI widgets.  I haven't tried it --  it was just the first thing I Googled
up, but if it doesn't work for you there are probably other modules for
directly addressing the screen in character mode.

Good luck.
		-- David Innes



From Marc.M.Adkins at Doorways.org  Fri Jul 25 18:40:21 2003
From: Marc.M.Adkins at Doorways.org (Marc M. Adkins)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
Message-ID: <OIECKMOJOMBCOBBGDMKACEFFDJAA.Marc.M.Adkins@Doorways.org>

> Here's the problem in this happy story. What if the machine does
> not have IIS? How do I run this as a localhost CGI script in that
> case? Are there tiny web servers that can be configured to just
> run a single (Perl) program? I want to keep the machine secure,
> and at the same time use a local web server as a cheap way to get
> a GUI.

Why not use HTTP::Daemon?  It comes with ActiveState.  This is what I always
use in the same situation.  It works fine, it's easy to use.  No fuss, no
muss.

It's possible to add some Win32::OLE code to start IE pointing at the
HTTP::Daemon port.  So you start your tool from a command line and it runs
and IE comes up and shows the page it vends.

mma


From asim at pair.com  Fri Jul 25 14:19:04 2003
From: asim at pair.com (Asim Jalis)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <001e01c35279$4a164600$0300000a@converger.net>
References: <20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
	<001e01c35279$4a164600$0300000a@converger.net>
Message-ID: <20030725191904.GA1740@wokkil.pair.com>

On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 11:52:12PM -0700, David Innes (CSG) wrote:
> 
> > > Command line tools look awful on Windows
> 
> Hmm.  I suppose the numbers you want to crunch are too
> proprietary and/or local for you to put the app on *your* web
> server and let users access that.

The problem is I don't want to waste cycles on my web server.
Also I don't want to require folks to be online.

The number crunching is an example. I am more interested in the
general solution of using IE as the Perl GUI.

> Since the DOS shell actually started out as, well, a shell,
> there are actually tons of full-screen text protocols you could
> probably play with to build something yourself.  (I just
> checked and a 13-year-old version of DOS Word still runs on my
> W2K box so all the old DOS screen hooks must still be lurking
> around.)
> 
> On CPAN there's a module called PerlVision that's a collection
> of text-mode UI widgets.  I haven't tried it --  it was just
> the first thing I Googled up, but if it doesn't work for you
> there are probably other modules for directly addressing the
> screen in character mode.

Interesting. Actually, DOS does not look so bad on the pre-95
machines. But on Win95 and later the DOS shell looks awful. One
solution might be to just have a slightly nicer looking shell.
The ones I have seen are all proprietary. I'll take a look at
PerlVision.


Asim

From tnight at pobox.com  Fri Jul 25 14:47:13 2003
From: tnight at pobox.com (Terry Nightingale)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Using HTML as GUI
In-Reply-To: <20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<200307230735.25882.jgardner@jonathangardner.net>
	<20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>
	<20030725005240.GA75923@wokkil.pair.com>
Message-ID: <3F218941.20208@pobox.com>

Asim Jalis wrote:

> Here's the problem in this happy story. What if the machine does
> not have IIS? How do I run this as a localhost CGI script in that
> case? Are there tiny web servers that can be configured to just
> run a single (Perl) program? I want to keep the machine secure,
> and at the same time use a local web server as a cheap way to get
> a GUI.

Here's my favorite tiny local webserver:

http://httpi.floodgap.com/

As the web page says, you don't need any additional libraries.  The 
script is relatively small and easy to understand, so customizing it for 
your needs (if necessary) should be straightforward.


-- 
Terry Nightingale <tnight@pobox.com>
Web Developer, Philosopher, Geek
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in
practice, there is." -- Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut


From asim at pair.com  Fri Jul 25 15:50:19 2003
From: asim at pair.com (Asim Jalis)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<200307230735.25882.jgardner@jonathangardner.net>
	<20030725004927.GW22606@speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <20030725205019.GA18866@wokkil.pair.com>

There is an interesting thread on this over on slashdot today.

Here are some excerpts:

http://homepage.mac.com/monickels/techjob.html

Over at World New York, they've posted excellent advice to the
geek masses: If you're out of work and know how to use a
computer, you can make a killing doing freelance technical
support. 

Some readers' comments:

> "Is there enough idiots out there to support all the 'geeks'?"

> You're new to tech/user support, I see...

From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jul 25 15:59:36 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: OpenBeerSauceMovies
Message-ID: <20030725135936.A6344@timji.consultix-inc.com>

As long as I'm playing social coordinator for local Open Source
advocates, I decided I might as well make sure everybody knows
about the Redhook Brewery's outdoor Music, Beer, and Movie
nights on Thursdays through August 21st. 

I'll be there watching "Waiting for Guffman" next Thursday,
will you?

Check spugwiki.perlocity.org/index.cgi?RedhookBeerMovies
for more details, and carpooling matchups.

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From dan at concolor.org  Fri Jul 25 20:16:45 2003
From: dan at concolor.org (Dan Sabath)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Next Open-Sauce Lunch (Downtown?)
In-Reply-To: <20030724110741.A32316@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <D27C550F-BF06-11D7-BD50-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>

Hey, Anyone up for doing a lunch downtown or in the international 
district? I can't make it to ballard for lunch but would love to meet 
up with you guys.

Dan

On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 11:07 AM, Tim Maher wrote:

> Because yesterday's event was so well attended (especially
> considering the short notice), and so many people indicated
> they would have attended given more advance notice, I've
> scheduled another for next Wednesday. The eatery will be the
> Golden City restaurant, in Darkest Ballard, which is very good
> and also a great value (a huge mound of food for $5; it's 2.3
> meals for me!).
>
> See spugwiki.perlocity.org, under "Social Events", for more
> details, and to RSVP.
>
> Hope to see you there!
>
> -Tim
> =======================================================
> | Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim(AT)timmaher.org     |
> | SPUG Founder & Leader       spug(AT)seattleperl.com |
> | Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.com     |
> =======================================================
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>
>


From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jul 25 22:24:41 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (SPUG-list-owner)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Next Open-Sauce Lunch (Downtown?)
In-Reply-To: <D27C550F-BF06-11D7-BD50-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>
References: <20030724110741.A32316@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<D27C550F-BF06-11D7-BD50-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>
Message-ID: <20030725202441.A7451@timji.consultix-inc.com>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 06:16:45PM -0700, Dan Sabath wrote:
> Hey, Anyone up for doing a lunch downtown or in the international 
> district? I can't make it to ballard for lunch but would love to meet 
> up with you guys.

Post a time and place on the wiki Social Events page, and see what
happens! 8-}

-Tim
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 11:07 AM, Tim Maher wrote:
> 
> >Because yesterday's event was so well attended (especially
> >considering the short notice), and so many people indicated
> >they would have attended given more advance notice, I've
> >scheduled another for next Wednesday. The eatery will be the
> >Golden City restaurant, in Darkest Ballard, which is very good
> >and also a great value (a huge mound of food for $5; it's 2.3
> >meals for me!).
> >
> >See spugwiki.perlocity.org, under "Social Events", for more
> >details, and to RSVP.
> >
> >Hope to see you there!
> >
> >-Tim
> >=======================================================
> >| Tim Maher, Ph.D.            tim(AT)timmaher.org     |
> >| SPUG Founder & Leader       spug(AT)seattleperl.com |
> >| Seattle Perl Users Group    www.seattleperl.com     |
> >=======================================================
> >_____________________________________________________________
> >Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> >POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> >ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> >MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> >WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> >
> >

-- 

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From spug at ifokr.org  Fri Jul 25 22:58:35 2003
From: spug at ifokr.org (Brian Hatch)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Next Open-Sauce Lunch (Downtown?)
In-Reply-To: <20030725202441.A7451@timji.consultix-inc.com>
References: <20030724110741.A32316@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<D27C550F-BF06-11D7-BD50-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>
	<20030725202441.A7451@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030726035835.GC28107@ifokr.org>



> > Hey, Anyone up for doing a lunch downtown or in the international 
> > district? I can't make it to ballard for lunch but would love to meet 
> > up with you guys.
> 
> Post a time and place on the wiki Social Events page, and see what
> happens! 8-}

And try not to overlap, such that those of us who work at home and
never see humans can perhaps make both.  ;-)

--
Brian Hatch                  Cat.  The other white meat.
   Systems and
   Security Engineer
http://www.ifokr.org/bri/

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From bill at celestial.com  Sat Jul 26 11:01:57 2003
From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Next Open-Sauce Lunch (Downtown?)
In-Reply-To: <20030725202441.A7451@timji.consultix-inc.com>;
	from tim@consultix-inc.com on Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 08:24:41PM
	-0700
References: <20030724110741.A32316@timji.consultix-inc.com>
	<D27C550F-BF06-11D7-BD50-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>
	<20030725202441.A7451@timji.consultix-inc.com>
Message-ID: <20030726090156.A9250@barryg.mi.celestial.com>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 08:24:41PM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 06:16:45PM -0700, Dan Sabath wrote:
>> Hey, Anyone up for doing a lunch downtown or in the international 
>> district? I can't make it to ballard for lunch but would love to meet 
>> up with you guys.
>
>Post a time and place on the wiki Social Events page, and see what
>happens! 8-}

I recommend the ``House of Hong'' on Jackson.  They even have
parking in addition to good food.

Bill
--
INTERNET:   bill@Celestial.COM  Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP:               camco!bill  PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX:            (206) 232-9186  Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/

``The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be
properly armed.''
        -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

From dan at concolor.org  Sat Jul 26 14:06:09 2003
From: dan at concolor.org (Dan Sabath)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Next Open-Sauce Lunch (Downtown Friday Aug 1st)
In-Reply-To: <20030726090156.A9250@barryg.mi.celestial.com>
Message-ID: <379EE3DC-BF9C-11D7-BD50-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>

Taking Bill's advice.

The next Open-Sauce Lunch.downtown will be Dim Sum at the House of Hong  
on Friday August 1st 12:00pm.

Sign up at:
http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/ 
index.cgi?FriAug01ChineseInInternationalDistrict

-dan

On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 09:01 AM, Bill Campbell wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 08:24:41PM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 06:16:45PM -0700, Dan Sabath wrote:
>>> Hey, Anyone up for doing a lunch downtown or in the international
>>> district? I can't make it to ballard for lunch but would love to meet
>>> up with you guys.
>>
>> Post a time and place on the wiki Social Events page, and see what
>> happens! 8-}
>
> I recommend the ``House of Hong'' on Jackson.  They even have
> parking in addition to good food.
>
> Bill
> --
> INTERNET:   bill@Celestial.COM  Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
> UUCP:               camco!bill  PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
> FAX:            (206) 232-9186  Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206)  
> 236-1676
> URL: http://www.celestial.com/
>
> ``The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they  
> be
> properly armed.''
>         -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
>
>


From m3047 at inwa.net  Sun Jul 27 17:30:17 2003
From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: paper on Annealing/Condensing of Abstract Data
Message-ID: <v02130500bb4a0187c1db@[66.228.197.251]>

Ever taken scraps of paper and pushed them around into piles to get a
handle on a large mass of interrelated data?

I wrote a little Perl/Tk program to tackle this problem and applied it to
the information in my Contacts/Events database and also to my intrusion
logs with surprisingly satisfying results:

  http://www.inwa.net/~m3047/scatter-paper.html

There's about 3 Megs of images behind it, and that was too much to serve
out of the space my ISP allocates (I've got other important stuff in there
you see), so the pix are served off of my personal server. It should be
accessible to most people most places, but if you can't load the images
drop me a note with what IP address you're coming from and I'll see if I
can fix it.

If there's sufficient interest I'd be happy to give a short talk and demo
at SPUG.

--

Fred Morris
m3047@inwa.net



From jaygray at scn.org  Tue Jul 29 00:09:39 2003
From: jaygray at scn.org (Jay Gray)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: SPUGwiki Needs Photos, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20030722193804.GR2003@titanium.brain.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728220001.23329C-100000@scn>

Ben,

Might I recommend you cheat through the process, and put a link to your
real webpage in all your wiki members page...

That is what I did (in addition to the perl-ish stuff I wrote).

-- Jay Gray


On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Ben Reser wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:02:38AM -0700, SPUG-list-owner wrote:
> > My concern is that in lulls between "buffy" discussions, the
> > London.pm folks might notice that only 7 alleged SPUGsters were
> > sufficiently conscious to make MemberPages for themselves on our
> > Wiki Site, which might lead to calls for a recount of the last
> > PUG census, with "hanging chad" members excluded! 8-}
> 
> Yeah the problem is now everyone is doing the Wiki thing and saying "Hey
> come make a page here."  I already have a home page.  I barely have time
> to maintain it.  Why would I want to make another page that I won't have
> time to maintain?
> 
> Frankly, I think the better thing to do is:
> a) Realize that the wiki is not the only way to participate.
> b) Accept that it is new and will take time to ramp up.
> c) Rather than encouraging people to post pictures of their dog fluffy,
> have them post useful and interesting things that relate to the
> group.  This will take longer to happen, but as people come up with
> things that are useful and interesting asking them to spend the time to
> post it on the wiki is likely to be far more fruitful than asking people
> to duplicate their personal home pages.
> 
> Besides what can Londom.pm talk about?  They don't even have a wiki yet.
> At least I can't find any mention of it on their page.  ;)
> 
> -- 
> Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
> http://ben.reser.org
> 
> "What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can
> no longer believe you." -- Nietzsche
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> 


From jaygray at scn.org  Tue Jul 29 01:34:16 2003
From: jaygray at scn.org (Jay Gray)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728223053.3980A-100000@scn>


This would be a very good subject for a wiki topic, since I've heard
Marc's advice a couple of times (he my neighbor, and it's hard to avoid
him), and it should be written down to a URL, so it's permanently
available.

My recommendations:
1) look at a Metro map -- where do all the buses run?
   Do not underestimate it's reach.

       I ride from the busstop in front of my house
       to the stop at my MSFT building (a 20 mile trip).

       Before that, 10 mins to Northgate Transit, and 
       45 minutes to Bellevue Transit (by my skyscraper)

       Both jobs gave me transit passes.


2) You're in Bellevue
      You are close to Microsoft! They are predicting 5,000 hires
      this fiscal year (starting July).

      I specialized in software build. This is easy for companies
      to advertise, so I have an easy time searching. Again, sniper,
      not a shotgun approach. In spite of a poor search (long story),
      I found two jobs in 9 months.

      The first company was terrible, and I had to leave. But, my
      pal Creede (a former MSFT acquaintence from 4 years ago)
      landed a contract at MSFT as a builder, and he referred me to
      a good recruiter.


      In the three weeks I've been back at Microsoft, I found a social
      alias for my church (20 people), founded a social alias for
      former InfoSpace employees at MSFT (another 25), and wrote
      a list of 50 friends from the Windows group. I have 100
      contacts at Microsoft.
      
      I am not bragging, but letting you know my approach for moving
      from a contractor (current status) to a full-time employee.


Hope that helps (someone).

-- Jay


On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Chris Turan wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I've been searching for jobs for several months now.  I've given up on the
> computer market and began looking for retail and restaurant jobs.  I've
> found that many of those have been taken as well and the employers can
> cherry pick who to hire.  Those jobs that aren't taken don't seem to want
> to hire me because I've over-qualified and am afriad I'll just leave when
> a good job turns up.
> 
> Has anyone had similar problems?  Any recommendations?  I'm keeping my
> shoulder to the grindstone and am looking.  I was hoping someone might
> have something to suggest.  I live in Bellevue and am looking mostly on
> the Eastside.  I've been looking mostly in Bellevue so that if they
> economic situation doesn't change, I can sell my car and still be able to
> walk to work.
> 
> Perhaps someone has some ideas I haven't considered yet.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Seattle Perl Users Group Mailing List  
> POST TO: spug-list@mail.pm.org   Wiki: spugwiki.perlocity.org
> ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
> MEETINGS: 3rd Tuesdays, U-District, Seattle WA
> WEB PAGE: www.seattleperl.org
> 
> 



From ben at reser.org  Tue Jul 29 02:15:48 2003
From: ben at reser.org (Ben Reser)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728223053.3980A-100000@scn>
References: <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307221859560.1002-100000@shofixti.webtelic.com>
	<Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728223053.3980A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20030729071548.GA1936@titanium.brain.org>

On Mon, Jul 28, 2003 at 11:34:16PM -0700, Jay Gray wrote:
> In the three weeks I've been back at Microsoft, I found a social alias
> for my church (20 people), founded a social alias for former InfoSpace
> employees at MSFT (another 25), and wrote a list of 50 friends from
> the Windows group. I have 100 contacts at Microsoft.

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that this Microsoft
employee posted that email:
a) In plain text
b) With PINE.
c) From a Sun box.

Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728223053.3980A-100000@scn>                      

:D

(Sorry couldn't resist)

-- 
Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org

"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can
no longer believe you." -- Nietzsche

From andrew at sweger.net  Tue Jul 29 04:47:49 2003
From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <20030729071548.GA1936@titanium.brain.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307290245340.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Ben Reser wrote:

> I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that this Microsoft
> employee posted that email:
> a) In plain text
> b) With PINE.
> c) From a Sun box.
> 
> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728223053.3980A-100000@scn>                      

>From a popular, successful, and long-lived community network too.

-- 
Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several
                                things can go wrong at once.



From creede at penguinsinthenight.com  Tue Jul 29 10:00:46 2003
From: creede at penguinsinthenight.com (Creede Lambard)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307290245340.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0307290245340.8817-100000@gandalf.addnorya.net>
Message-ID: <1059490829.4384.6.camel@boris>

Yet another Microsoft contractor occasionally posts to this list:

in plain text
with Pine
from a Linux box
via SSH from his corporate desktop

Remember, it's called "putty" because it makes Windows useful. :)

On Tue, 2003-07-29 at 02:47, Andrew Sweger wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Ben Reser wrote:
> 
> > I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that this Microsoft
> > employee posted that email:
> > a) In plain text
> > b) With PINE.
> > c) From a Sun box.
> > 
> > Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728223053.3980A-100000@scn>                      
> 
> >From a popular, successful, and long-lived community network too.


From jaygray at scn.org  Tue Jul 29 22:41:23 2003
From: jaygray at scn.org (Jay Gray)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Giving up on computer jobs
In-Reply-To: <20030729071548.GA1936@titanium.brain.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030729201040.966B-100000@scn>


Ben,

Laugh all you want. ;-) I needed a simple email system
to keep me from using fonts, colors, etc., since I am
addicted to these frills. I do occasionally forward my
SCN mail to my MSN account.

I also, amusingly, notice viruses do not affect my mail.
Who could write a virus, executable in Pine on a Sun?
Who would bother?

-- Jay Gray, Seattle
   (contractor at Microsoft through Volt)


On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Ben Reser wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 28, 2003 at 11:34:16PM -0700, Jay Gray wrote:
>
> > I have 100 contacts at Microsoft.
> 
> I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that this Microsoft
> employee posted that email:
> a) In plain text
> b) With PINE.
> c) From a Sun box.
>
> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1030728223053.3980A-100000@scn>                      
> 
> :D
> 
> (Sorry couldn't resist)
> 
> -- 
> Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
> http://ben.reser.org




From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jul 30 12:43:36 2003
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: Today's Lunch: 12:30, Ballard
Message-ID: <20030730104336.A29148@timji.consultix-inc.com>

Reminder of today's "Open Sauce Lunch"

	Golden City restaurant 
	Chinese food in Central Ballard
	Wednesday, 7/30, 12:30pm 
	5518 20th Ave. NW, just N of Market St., East Side
	Seattle WA 98107-5214 
	782-6809 

We've got about a dozen people signed up, but last-minute
show-ups are also welcome.

Look for a guy wearing bushy orange hair and beard; that will
be this lunch's Convener, Tim Maher. 

More details at spugwiki.perlocity.org.

-Tim
*------------------------------------------------------------*
| Tim Maher (206) 781-UNIX  (866) DOC-PERL  (866) DOC-UNIX   |
| tim(AT)Consultix-Inc.Com  TeachMeUnix.Com  TeachMePerl.Com |
*+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-*
|  Watch for my Book: "Minimal Perl for Shell Programmers"   |
*------------------------------------------------------------*

From kahn at cpan.org  Wed Jul 30 15:20:30 2003
From: kahn at cpan.org (Jeremy G Kahn)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: CGI wizard needed
Message-ID: <3F28288E.4090203@cpan.org>

Project Alchemy (http://www.projectalchemy.org/) is looking for some 
help in getting a CGI perl script configured on a Linux box, to support 
http://poetsagainstthewar.org/

PA is a great organization, helping non-profits (peace, social justice, 
environmental activists, etc) get their technological feet under them, 
but this is their first foray into the world of Perl and Linux -- a 
little help here could make it easy for them.  The project I

Here's what Andy (andy@projectalchemy.org) has to say about the problem 
they're facing:

>  I need to get a cgi application that was written in perl up and
>  running on a linux server with a MySQL backend. This is a help desk
>  application that will enable several different volunteers to handle a
>  high volume of incoming email to a specific email address:
>  info@poetsagainstthewar.org. The application is Perldesk, at
>  http://perldesk.com/.
>
>  The application has already been installed on my server, and all the
>  right server settings and installations are there, as far as I can
>  tell. Now, there are a set of things to be done to make it a usable
>  app, and there are a number of little problems to solve to get it up
>  and running. I am looking for a developer who has cgi expertise who
>  can take over and complete the jobof configuring the app for our use.

I don't really have any substantial experience in CGI, so I am not much 
help here. Would anybody on SPUG be interested in helping out? Feel free 
to contact Andy directly if you're interested, or write me to ask for 
more information.

It would be a good contact, and it might be a good way to feel out the 
non-profit community to find out who's looking for system administrators 
there (networking, ladies and gentlemen, networking).

Hope this is useful for someone...

--j



From chuck.orr at attws.com  Wed Jul 30 18:54:46 2003
From: chuck.orr at attws.com (Orr, Chuck  (NOC))
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
Message-ID: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>

Hello All,
 
Please help with the following dilemma:

     I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to fix
with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
 
425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
 
I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
this:
 
425 501 sttlwa01t
425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
425 337 tacwa02t
 
As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will follow
each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or some other
tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
$new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];  

Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
always miss the last chunk of the glob.

 
Thanks,
Chuck
-------------- next part --------------
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From cwilkes-spug at ladro.com  Wed Jul 30 19:18:07 2003
From: cwilkes-spug at ladro.com (Chris Wilkes)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
In-Reply-To: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
References: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
Message-ID: <20030731001807.GK47307@www.ladro.com>

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 04:54:46PM -0700, Orr, Chuck  (NOC) wrote:
> 
>      I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to fix
> with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
>  
> I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
> numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
> this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t
> 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
> 425 337 tacwa02t

(note to Chuck: this is the same email I sent to you directly by
accident)

Not sure if this is very efficient, but this one works.  In fact, its
probably extremely inefficient with that substitute in there.

This works only if you are guaranteed a format of
"### ### some non three digit numbers".

Chris



#!/usr/bin/perl

while (<DATA>) {
   chomp;
   while (/(\d{3} \d{3} .*?)\s+(\d{3} \d{3})/g) {
      push @ary, $1;
      s/^$1\s+//;
   }
   push @ary, $_ if /^\d{3} \d{3}/;
}

print "" . (join "\n", @ary) . "\n";


__DATA__
425 501 one 425 712 two twoB 425 337 three 123 456 four fourB fourC 789 012 five 000 000 six
123 456 simple one liner

From devnull at devnullsoftware.com  Wed Jul 30 18:53:24 2003
From: devnull at devnullsoftware.com (Lee Wilson)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
In-Reply-To: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307301647070.7251-100000@devnullsoftware.com>


The problem is that you're trying to do a non-deterministic problem using 
a deterministic tool, I think.

However, based on the small sample of data, I can see an approach that 
will work, albeit a bit bruce-forcish.  


    my $input = "425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 
tacwa02t";
    my @step1 = ();
    my @output = ();
    my $out;
    my $index = 0;

    @step1 = split /(\d{3}\s+\d{3}\s+)/, $input;
    for ( $index = 1; $index < @step1; $index += 2)
    {
        my $line = $step1[$index] . " " . $step1[$index + 1];
        push( @output, $line );
    }

This assumes:
1) Each piece of data starts with 2 3-digit numbers
2) Each piece of data has 1 or more words

if either of those are untrue, then this algorithm will have problems, but 
I think they are solvable.

My only point is that you may not be able to solve this with a one-line 
command.  If someone CAN solve it that way, I'd be interested to see how 
=)



On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Orr, Chuck  (NOC) wrote:

> Hello All,
>  
> Please help with the following dilemma:
> 
>      I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to fix
> with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
>  
> I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
> numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
> this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t
> 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
> 425 337 tacwa02t
>  
> As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will follow
> each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or some other
> tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
> $new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];  
> 
> Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
> characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
> always miss the last chunk of the glob.



==============================================================================
Lee Wilson - INTP                               http://www.devnullsoftware.com
Software Developer / RealNetworks                    http://www.realarcade.com
==============================================================================
              There are 10 kinds of people in the world: 
                The people who understand ternary, 
                  The people who dont, but care, 
            and the people who don't understand or care.
==============================================================================


From james at banshee.com  Wed Jul 30 19:36:27 2003
From: james at banshee.com (James Moore)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
In-Reply-To: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
Message-ID: <001401c356fb$c71b48e0$797ba8c0@gealach>

I wouldn't do it in one step.

Something vaguely like (not tested or compiled):

my $foundAWord = 1; # set to true to pick up the first element
my @results;
my @currentResult;
my @elements = split ' ', $incomingBlob;
for my $bit (@elements) {
  if ($foundAWord and $bit =~ /^\d+$/)
    push @results, [@currentResult]
      if @currentResult;
    undef @currentResult;
    undef $foundAWord;
  }
    
  push @currentResult, $bit;

  if ($bit =~ /\D/) {
    $foundAWord = 1;
  }
}
push @results, [@currentResult];


-----Original Message-----
From: spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org [mailto:spug-list-bounces@mail.pm.org]
On Behalf Of Orr, Chuck (NOC)
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:55 PM
To: spug-list@mail.pm.org
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question

Hello All,
?
Please help with the following dilemma:
???? I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to fix with
perl.? It comes in as $blob looking like this:
?
425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
?
I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the numbers
stay with their numbers.? Ideally, I would have an array like this:
?
425 501 sttlwa01t
425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
425 337 tacwa02t
?
As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will follow
each set of numbers.? Could you please suggest a split or some other tool
that will turn the glob into the fix?
$new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];? 
Which is as close as we got, does not work.? It keeps the split characters,
but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.? It also will always miss the
last chunk of the glob.
?
Thanks,
Chuck


From cansubaykan at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 30 19:44:44 2003
From: cansubaykan at hotmail.com (John Subaykan)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
Message-ID: <BAY2-F5zdzF2tl9bX5Q00011f2b@hotmail.com>

if you know that you always have 3 digits, space, 3 digits, or even some 
digits, space, some digits:

You can use a while loop (here is one possible way):

my @array;

while ($scalar =~ /((?:\b\d+\s+)+.+?)(?=$|\b\d)/g) {
    push @array, $1;
}


you can use split:

my @array2 = split /\s(?=\d+ \d+)/, $scalar;




----Original Message Follows----

Hello All,

Please help with the following dilemma:

      I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to fix
with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:

425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...

I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
this:

425 501 sttlwa01t
425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
425 337 tacwa02t

As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will follow
each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or some other
tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
$new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];

Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
always miss the last chunk of the glob.


Thanks,
Chuck
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ACCOUNT CONFIG: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/spug-list
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From cjcollier at colliertech.org  Wed Jul 30 20:18:52 2003
From: cjcollier at colliertech.org (C.J. Collier)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
In-Reply-To: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
References: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
Message-ID: <1059613781.1537.420.camel@karma.localnet>

On Wed, 2003-07-30 at 16:54, Orr, Chuck (NOC) wrote:
> Hello All,
>  
> Please help with the following dilemma:
> 
>      I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to
> fix with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...

> I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
> numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
> this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t
> 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
> 425 337 tacwa02t

$ perl -e '$blob = "425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337
tacwa02t"; @matches = $blob =~ /(\d+ \d+(?: \D[\w\d]+)+)/g;
print(join("\n", @matches), "\n");'
425 501 sttlwa01t
425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
425 337 tacwa02t

Ha.  Please, someone make it look prettier.

C.J.



From ben at reser.org  Wed Jul 30 20:44:45 2003
From: ben at reser.org (Ben Reser)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
In-Reply-To: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
References: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
Message-ID: <20030731014444.GF5262@titanium.brain.org>

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 04:54:46PM -0700, Orr, Chuck  (NOC) wrote:
> Hello All,
>  
> Please help with the following dilemma:
> 
>      I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to fix
> with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
>  
> I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
> numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
> this:
>  
> 425 501 sttlwa01t
> 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
> 425 337 tacwa02t
>  
> As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will follow
> each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or some other
> tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
> $new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];  
> 
> Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
> characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
> always miss the last chunk of the glob.

This is what I would use:

[breser@titanium breser]$ perl
$blob = '425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t';
print join("\n", split(/(?<!\d{3})\s+(?=\d{3})/, $blob)),"\n";
__END__
425 501 sttlwa01t
425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
425 337 tacwa02t

It'll fail if the text entries ever contain 3 numbers at the end.

Not sure if this is prefered or not over the other looping solutions
people have come up with.

-- 
Ben Reser <ben@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org

"What upsets me is not that you lied to me, but that from now on I can
no longer believe you." -- Nietzsche

From asim at pair.com  Wed Jul 30 21:03:16 2003
From: asim at pair.com (Asim Jalis)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:04 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
In-Reply-To: <1059613781.1537.420.camel@karma.localnet>
References: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
	<1059613781.1537.420.camel@karma.localnet>
Message-ID: <20030731020316.GA76214@wokkil.pair.com>

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 06:09:41PM -0700, C.J. Collier wrote:
> $ perl -e '$blob = "425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337
> tacwa02t"; @matches = $blob =~ /(\d+ \d+(?: \D[\w\d]+)+)/g;
> print(join("\n", @matches), "\n");'
> 425 501 sttlwa01t
> 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
> 425 337 tacwa02t
> 
> Ha.  Please, someone make it look prettier.

How about:

$ perl -e '
  $blob = "425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t"; 
  $_ = $blob ; s/(\D) (\d)/$1\n$2/g ; print '
425 501 sttlwa01t
425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
425 337 tacwa02t

If blob is coming from outside the program, the Perl could be
even slimmer, as:

$ echo "425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t" | 
  perl -pe 's/(\D) (\d)/$1\n$2/g'

--
Asim

From m3047 at inwa.net  Wed Jul 30 22:01:53 2003
From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:05 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
Message-ID: <v02130500bb4e2e837f8e@[66.228.197.251]>

Yakkity Yacc....

Orr wrote:
>Please help with the following dilemma:
>
>     I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to fix
>with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
>
>425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
>
>I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
>numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
>this:
>
>425 501 sttlwa01t
>425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
>425 337 tacwa02t
>
>As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will follow
>each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or some other
>tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
>$new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];

OK then, what are you assured of? Because if you're assured of nothing you
need LISP. Conversely, if you're not assured of something, maybe a neural
net. Plenty of peeps will feed your head, the question is: with what?

Again: what are you assured of?

>Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
>characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
>always miss the last chunk of the glob.

Looks to me like you say "...that will follow each set of numbers." Well
gooollllLEE! So why don't you parse the numbers, man? Wait a sec! Because
some idjit will be 37714217. I could see it coming.

Well then, mayhaps they've found a vulnerability and things ain't so peachy
in Mayberry. You need to go a little depper, if this is th' case..  ARRRRR!
Clean dem scuppers o'yer mind o'yer preconceptions and swim wit' da fishes!

Turn the sea ta quicksilver and anythin' will float. Sooth. Justin's and
Julie's teeth, even.

What's up with 425? Izzat changeable? What is it? Why not 420? Why not SPF?
MONAD? GOMER? NOMAD? HOMER?

I mean, the answer is really so simple, and it's to split on \sdb[@-I]\s.
Split however many ways you want to after that...


SPLIT ON 425!!

ARE YOU^H^H^HWE FOR REAL?

--

Fred Morris
m3047@inwa.net




From dan at concolor.org  Wed Jul 30 22:50:23 2003
From: dan at concolor.org (Dan Sabath)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:05 2004
Subject: SPUG: Open Sauce Lunch Friday
Message-ID: <1D523939-C30A-11D7-A6EE-000393A6CEB6@concolor.org>

Just your friendly reminder. Love to see more of you there. Sign up at:
http://spugwiki.perlocity.org/ 
index.cgi?FriAug01ChineseInInternationalDistrict

-dan

Open Sauce Lunch
Chinese (Dim Sum) food in International District
Friday, 8/1, 12:00pm


House of Hong
409 8th Ave S
Seattle, Washington  98104
(206) 622-7997
MAP
Website
Look for a guy wearing a hawaiian shirt and (no) gotee; that will be  
this lunch's Convener, Dan Sabath. 


From chuck.orr at attws.com  Thu Jul 31 00:51:05 2003
From: chuck.orr at attws.com (Orr, Chuck  (NOC))
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:05 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
Message-ID: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A253@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>

Thank You all for the excellent responses.
 
I tried several of these because I felt guilty wasting all the thought
and code.  The solution that seems to fit my life best is the one from
Lee Wilson.  Lee, thanks a million.  If you're ever in the Bothell area,
I owe you a lunch.  I appreciate everyone's efforts on this one.  
 
Thank You,
Chuck Orr
chuck.orr@attws.com
425 501 8027

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Orr, Chuck (NOC) [mailto:chuck.orr@attws.com] 
	Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:55 PM
	To: spug-list@mail.pm.org
	Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
	
	
	Hello All,
	 
	Please help with the following dilemma:
	
	     I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need
to fix with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
	 
	425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t
...
	 
	I need to break this up so the word characters associated with
the numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array
like this:
	 
	425 501 sttlwa01t
	425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
	425 337 tacwa02t
	 
	As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that
will follow each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or
some other tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
	$new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];  

	Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
always miss the last chunk of the glob.

	 
	Thanks,
	Chuck

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From krahnj at acm.org  Thu Jul 31 02:02:11 2003
From: krahnj at acm.org (John W. Krahn)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:05 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
In-Reply-To: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
References: <B4C58539DE7C9D4AAF4ACC95E9F6CB94D9A252@WA-MSG05-BTH.wireless.attws.com>
Message-ID: <0307310002110E.00809@bng2406iy20tf>

On Wednesday 30 July 2003 16:54, Orr, Chuck (NOC) wrote:
>
> Please help with the following dilemma:
>
>      I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to
> fix with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
>
> 425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
>
> I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
> numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
> this:
>
> 425 501 sttlwa01t
> 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
> 425 337 tacwa02t
>
> As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will
> follow each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or some
> other tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
> $new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];
>
> Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
> characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
> always miss the last chunk of the glob.


How about this?

$ perl -le'
$glob = "425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ";

@array = $glob =~ /( \b\d+ \s+ \d+ (?:\s+ \D\w*)+ )/xg;

print for @array;
'
425 501 sttlwa01t 
425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 
425 337 tacwa02t 



John
-- 
use Perl;
program
fulfillment

From m3047 at inwa.net  Thu Jul 31 10:01:59 2003
From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:37:05 2004
Subject: SPUG: RE / Split Question
Message-ID: <v02130501bb4ed7ac3ef4@[66.228.197.251]>

John Krahn wrote:
>On Wednesday 30 July 2003 16:54, Orr, Chuck (NOC) wrote:
>>
>> Please help with the following dilemma:
>>
>>      I am being given a glob of data from a web page that I need to
>> fix with perl.  It comes in as $blob looking like this:
>>
>> 425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ...
>>
>> I need to break this up so the word characters associated with the
>> numbers stay with their numbers.  Ideally, I would have an array like
>> this:
>>
>> 425 501 sttlwa01t
>> 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
>> 425 337 tacwa02t
>>
>> As you can see, I am not assured of the number of words that will
>> follow each set of numbers.  Could you please suggest a split or some
>> other tool that will turn the glob into the fix?
>> $new_array = [ split /(?=[A-Z]\s\d)/,$scalar ];
>>
>> Which is as close as we got, does not work.  It keeps the split
>> characters, but in a funky way that I cannot deal with.  It also will
>> always miss the last chunk of the glob.
>
>
>How about this?
>
>$ perl -le'
>$glob = "425 501 sttlwa01t 425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t 425 337 tacwa02t ";
>
>@array = $glob =~ /( \b\d+ \s+ \d+ (?:\s+ \D\w*)+ )/xg;
>
>print for @array;
>'
>425 501 sttlwa01t
>425 712 sttlwa01t tacwa02t
>425 337 tacwa02t

This gets my vote, as it almost entirely avoids Content Imposition Disorder.


I note several things about the problem and the context in which it was stated.

1. it is "..data from a web page".

2. all records start with 425

3. the poster posted from AT&T Wireless


Presumably (3) implies Bellevue, WA.

The area code for Bellevue, WA. is 425.

There is no standard 425 web server error.


I think it's reasonable to infer that (1) is a snark.

I also think it's reasonable to infer that the implicit records consist of
an area code, an exchange, plus some string of codes, possibly cell relays.
But that's just CID setting in, if the poster didn't see fit to provide
this much content in their initial post, why should I impose it?

(If it's data from a web page, it's likely that the area code and exchange
come in as single-valued parameters and that the cells are a multivalued
parameter.)

If I was getting paid to make such a judgement call, the expression I'd use
would be:

  @array = $glob =~ /( \b\d{3} \s+ \d{3} (?:\s+ \D\w*)+ )/xg;

Which imposes more content than the original solution (or does it?). Even
though it's an imposition of content, I suspect your notion of the cell
identifiers being legal identifiers is bang on.


But, only the depp knows for sure! (Oh what do we do with broken data? What
do we do with broken data? What do we do with broken data earlie in the
mornin'!)

--

Fred Morris
m3047@inwa.net