From dave at dave.org.uk  Mon Jan  1 04:54:20 2001
From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: declarations
In-Reply-To: <20010101021740.A17413@mccarroll.demon.co.uk>
References: <20001230203948.D12985@panix.com>
 <01C07253.7E4CFA80@tac-lx100-ip40.nwnexus.net>
 <20001230203948.D12985@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010101105245.02118240@pop.dave.org.uk>

At 02:17 01/01/2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
>* David H. Adler (dha@panix.com) wrote:
> >
> > My question is, why would you even have a line of code like this in a
> > program at a point where %in wouldn't already exist?  And if you
> > localize it as at top, you're effectively just assinging a value of
> > undef to $one_server.
>
>based on a few leaps of logic, is the question - how do i set a default
>for $in{'server'} if its not already defined. if this isn't the real
>question please forgive me, but i'm just joining into the guessing game
>along with everyone else ....
>
>anyway the neatest way to declare the defaults just before they are
>used is (imho),
>
>$in{'server'} ||= 'default.mydomain.com';
>my $server = $in{'server'};

Or cut out the middle man and write:
my $server = $in{server} || 'default.mydomain.com';

Happy new year Seattle,

Dave...

-- 
<http://www.dave.org.uk>  SMS: sms@dave.org.uk
<plug>Data Munging with Perl <http://www.manning.com/cross/></plug>


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From tony at blackstar.co.uk  Mon Jan  1 07:38:50 2001
From: tony at blackstar.co.uk (Tony Bowden)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: declarations
In-Reply-To: <20010101021740.A17413@mccarroll.demon.co.uk>; from greg@mccarroll.demon.co.uk on Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:17:40AM +0000
References: <01C07253.7E4CFA80@tac-lx100-ip40.nwnexus.net> <20001230203948.D12985@panix.com> <20010101021740.A17413@mccarroll.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20010101133850.A12748@blackstar.co.uk>

On Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:17:40AM +0000, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> * DHA then wrote: 
> > Am I missing something?
> the BBC? ulster frys? good guiness? 

PAL format VCRs ...

Tony
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | tb@tmtm.com | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
                       they don't make penicillin that'll cure your infection
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From greg at mccarroll.demon.co.uk  Mon Jan  1 08:12:16 2001
From: greg at mccarroll.demon.co.uk (Greg McCarroll)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: declarations
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010101105245.02118240@pop.dave.org.uk>; from dave@dave.org.uk on Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 10:54:20AM +0000
References: <20001230203948.D12985@panix.com> <01C07253.7E4CFA80@tac-lx100-ip40.nwnexus.net> <20001230203948.D12985@panix.com> <20010101021740.A17413@mccarroll.demon.co.uk> <5.0.0.25.2.20010101105245.02118240@pop.dave.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20010101141216.A18667@mccarroll.demon.co.uk>

* Dave Cross (dave@dave.org.uk) wrote:
> At 02:17 01/01/2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> >* David H. Adler (dha@panix.com) wrote:
> > >
> > > My question is, why would you even have a line of code like this in a
> > > program at a point where %in wouldn't already exist?  And if you
> > > localize it as at top, you're effectively just assinging a value of
> > > undef to $one_server.
> >
> >based on a few leaps of logic, is the question - how do i set a default
> >for $in{'server'} if its not already defined. if this isn't the real
> >question please forgive me, but i'm just joining into the guessing game
> >along with everyone else ....
> >
> >anyway the neatest way to declare the defaults just before they are
> >used is (imho),
> >
> >$in{'server'} ||= 'default.mydomain.com';
> >my $server = $in{'server'};
> 
> Or cut out the middle man and write:
> my $server = $in{server} || 'default.mydomain.com';
> 

it all depends if you are playing perl golf or writing production
code ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll                          http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

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From dha at panix.com  Mon Jan  1 13:58:53 2001
From: dha at panix.com (David H. Adler)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: declarations
In-Reply-To: <20010101133850.A12748@blackstar.co.uk>; from tony@blackstar.co.uk on Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:38:50PM +0000
References: <01C07253.7E4CFA80@tac-lx100-ip40.nwnexus.net> <20001230203948.D12985@panix.com> <20010101021740.A17413@mccarroll.demon.co.uk> <20010101133850.A12748@blackstar.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20010101145853.A29035@panix.com>

On Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 01:38:50PM +0000, Tony Bowden wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 02:17:40AM +0000, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> > * DHA then wrote: 
> > > Am I missing something?
> > the BBC? ulster frys? good guiness? 
> 
> PAL format VCRs ...

And TVs, don't forget... :-)

-- 
David H. Adler - <dha@panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/

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From tuck at whistlingfish.net  Tue Jan  2 12:47:12 2001
From: tuck at whistlingfish.net (Matt Tucker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: declarations
In-Reply-To: <20010101141216.A18667@mccarroll.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1227430000.978461232@flashingchance.whistlingfish.net>

-- Greg McCarroll <greg@mccarroll.demon.co.uk> spake thusly:

> * Dave Cross (dave@dave.org.uk) wrote:
>
>> At 02:17 01/01/2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
>>
>> > $in{'server'} ||= 'default.mydomain.com';
>> > my $server = $in{'server'};
>>
>> Or cut out the middle man and write:
>> my $server = $in{server} || 'default.mydomain.com';
>
> it all depends if you are playing perl golf or writing production
> code ;-)

Actually, I think I'd prefer the second method in either case. It has the advantage of not changing the inputs, so if for some reason you later wanted to know whether a server was specified, you still could.

Although it would probably be best (unless you're playing perl golf) to 
do:

    use constant DEFAULT_SERVER => 'default.mydomain.com';
    .
    .
    .
    my $server = $in{server} || DEFAULT_SERVER;

Alternately, if you were changing the inputs, it should be happening up 
by the getopts or readparse (or whatever you're doing) call; not down where it's used.
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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jan  2 20:55:31 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Status of Perl Journal (from Editor)
Message-ID: <20010103025531.A10385@timji.consultix.wa.com>

----- Forwarded message from Jon Orwant <orwant@oreilly.com> -----

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:18:48 -0500
From: Jon Orwant <orwant@oreilly.com>
To: Jon Orwant <orwant@oreilly.com>
Subject: The state of TPJ
X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i


January 2, 2001

Some folks have been asking me about the status of The Perl
Journal #20, and prospective authors have been asking me
about deadlines for future issues.  The answers: TPJ #20 is
in press and ready to print, but EarthWeb (the owner of TPJ)
has told the printer to stop the presses until further
notice.  I am currently responding to proposals sent to me
with approximately "I don't know if there's going to be
another issue, but when I do I'll respond to your proposal."

Since the future of the magazine is in doubt, I can't in
good conscience greenlight proposals; I will not encourage
an author to spend weeks writing an article when I know that
it might never be printed.  So I've told people who've asked
what I know about the current situation: while EarthWeb has
sold many of its properties to internet.com so that it can
focus on "career services", it has not sold TPJ.  However,
EarthWeb has also made it clear that they don't want to
publish TPJ any more.

This story has started to leak out to the Perl community and
has already mutated a bit in not-quite-correct directions,
so I wanted to write this note to set the record straight.
Or as straight as I can, given what little I know about
EarthWeb's decisions.  

While TPJ's future is very much up in the air, people
shouldn't take this as any indicator about Perl itself.  
TPJ was doing just fine back when I ran it, there's no
shortage of content out there, and the magazine could easily
go bimonthly and then monthly -- indeed, when EarthWeb
acquired TPJ I had thought that was the plan.  I still enjoy
the editing, the authors enjoy the writing, and the 
designers enjoy the designing.  What happens now is up to
EarthWeb.  And no, I'm not suggesting that people bombard
them with email.  Heck, they just laid off 100 people, so
I'm not even sure who to bombard.  Eventually there will be
some resolution, and when there is I'll write again to let
everyone know.

As of December 27th, this matter is now in the courts, and
so I have to adopt the "just the facts" tone of this letter
without portraying my opinions.  Someday I'll be able to
talk more about what is happening in these strange days;
until then, you'll have to conjure up your own adjectives on
my behalf.

Cheers,

Jon Orwant

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From ajalis at twu.net  Wed Jan  3 00:40:04 2001
From: ajalis at twu.net (ajalis@twu.net)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: ESPUG January Meeting
Message-ID: <20010103014004.A16575@twu.net>

Hope you had a good break. Here are the details for the January ESPUG 
meeting (in Redmond).

I'll post this announcement again the week of the meeting. If you have
a short presentation or idea that you want to talk about let me know
and I can put that in the final announcement.

This month:

  * Sanford Morton will talk about using Net::IRC and libwww to create
    IRC bots that can grab and report information off the web (e.g. stock
    quotes).

DATE AND SCHEDULE

    Wednesday, January 24, 2000 
    6.45 pm - 7.00 pm : Coffee + Networking
    7.00 pm - 9.00 pm : Presentations and Q&A.

LOCATION

    Lucent Technologies
    6464 185th Ave NE
    Redmond, WA 98052
    
DIRECTIONS

    - Take 520 East to Redmond-Fall City Road (last exit before 
      end of 520 freeway).
    - Go Right on "Redmond-Fall City Road" (east).
    - Straight through 2 lights then left on 185th Ave (halfway 
      up hill, hard left).
    - Go one short block to the top of the hill and the Lucent 
      Technologies logo will be plainly visible above the main 
      entrance of the building (to the right)
    - If you get to the Fire Station, you have gone a bit too far.
   
    Doors open at 6:45 and the meeting starts at 7:00.

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From john.brittingham at attws.com  Fri Jan  5 13:55:12 2001
From: john.brittingham at attws.com (Brittingham, John)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Perl cgi and filehandles
Message-ID: <EF337D510873D311A9FB00805FFE0A880333F2B1@hq-msg08.nwest.attws.com>

I hope I am wording this right...
Does perl run from a command line work differently that perl run as cgi from
a browser in requards to filehandles?
The reason I am asking is I have a script the writes to a file
("single_log_extract_results.htm") when it is run from the command line but
dies when it is run from a browser with "can not open
/home/httpd/html/single_log_extract_results.htm" 

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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jan  5 07:24:46 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Perl cgi and filehandles
In-Reply-To: <EF337D510873D311A9FB00805FFE0A880333F2B1@hq-msg08.nwest.attws.com>; from Brittingham, John on Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 11:55:12AM -0800
References: <EF337D510873D311A9FB00805FFE0A880333F2B1@hq-msg08.nwest.attws.com>
Message-ID: <20010105132446.A3007@timji.consultix.wa.com>

On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 11:55:12AM -0800, Brittingham, John wrote:
> I hope I am wording this right...
> Does perl run from a command line work differently that perl run as cgi from
> a browser in requards to filehandles?
> The reason I am asking is I have a script the writes to a file
> ("single_log_extract_results.htm") when it is run from the command line but
> dies when it is run from a browser with "can not open
> /home/httpd/html/single_log_extract_results.htm" 

Hi John!  Glad to see you're using your new Perl skills, and getting help
from the mailing list.

A Perl program running in CGI mode will typically use the "nobody" UID,
which means it will have to operate with more restricted permissions than
it does when you run it as "john" from the command line (this is determined
by the server's configuration details).

Once you have tested your program and in so doing created that file
with "john" ownership, the "nobody" account won't be able to write to
it, assuming a normal umask setting of 022.  chmod o+w on the file
will fix that.

-Tim

*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
|Training- TIM MAHER: Unix, Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl, OOP, Parsing |
|12/12: UNIX  1/15: Perl/DBI  2/20: Data Munging;Perl  2/22: Adv. OO Perl|
*========================================================================*

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From alyssa at atuin.net  Fri Jan  5 14:38:20 2001
From: alyssa at atuin.net (Alyssa Harding)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Perl cgi and filehandles
References: <EF337D510873D311A9FB00805FFE0A880333F2B1@hq-msg08.nwest.attws.com>
Message-ID: <3A5630BC.8BAC85C9@atuin.net>

That sounds like a permissions issue.  

When you run it on the command line, you're running it as yourself.  You
have write permission to the file.

Most web servers run as the user 'nobody'.  Check to see that 'nobody'
(or your webserver) has permission to write to the file.  

A.

"Brittingham, John" wrote:
> 
> I hope I am wording this right...
> Does perl run from a command line work differently that perl run as cgi from
> a browser in requards to filehandles?
> The reason I am asking is I have a script the writes to a file
> ("single_log_extract_results.htm") when it is run from the command line but
> dies when it is run from a browser with "can not open
> /home/httpd/html/single_log_extract_results.htm"
> 
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From moonbeam at catmanor.com  Fri Jan  5 14:44:03 2001
From: moonbeam at catmanor.com (William Julien)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Perl cgi and filehandles
Message-ID: <200101052044.MAA23097@catmanor.com>

>
>I hope I am wording this right...
>Does perl run from a command line work differently that perl run as cgi from
>a browser in requards to filehandles?
>The reason I am asking is I have a script the writes to a file
>("single_log_extract_results.htm") when it is run from the command line but
>dies when it is run from a browser with "can not open
>/home/httpd/html/single_log_extract_results.htm" 
>

Check your permissions on the file. When you run "from the browser", you
are running as "nobody".

William

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From spug at cosmic.care-gear.com  Tue Jan  9 10:17:30 2001
From: spug at cosmic.care-gear.com (Spug User)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Hello
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0101090759000.893-100000@cosmic.care-gear.com>

Hello :)

  My name is Kareem Hadee.  I'm a newbie unix system administrator and I'm
eager to learn perl!  I've read the "learning perl" book by O'reilly and
I've used perl off and on for the last year at work.  Most of the time I
avoid perl simply because it's faster for me to throw together a shell
script, BUT I'M SICK OF THAT :)  I live in the seattle area and I'll be
attending your next meeting on Tuesday the 16th?  I would really like to
sharpen my programming skills and I feel spug is the best way to do
it.  

thanks
-Kareem Hadee


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From mike at unixgeek.net  Tue Jan  9 16:15:09 2001
From: mike at unixgeek.net (Mike)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Hello SPUG
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010109141332.03ba5a50@mail.winstar.com>

I know I've been in /dev/null for a while. Actually probably no one 
remembers me.
I showed up i believe in the Aug or October meeting then I life got hetic. 
But I've
been lurking. I really want to try to make the next meeting and see whats been
up. I finally turned 21 so if we are still meeting at Rock Bottom I can 
have a few
drinks with you all.

Peace!


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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jan 10 06:37:32 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: Free Linux Journal Subscriptions
Message-ID: <20010110123732.B1828@timji.consultix.wa.com>

SPUGsters,

As you've probably learned by now, the future of "The Perl Journal"
(TPJ), currently published by Earthweb Inc., is uncertain.
There's some doubt as to whether the next issue, or any one after
that, will be forthcoming.  A legal action has been initiated, so
the parties are not at liberty to say too much in public, but you
can read the remarks of TPJ Editor Jon Orwant on the subject at:
	http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/03/0044235&mode=thread

Consultix was counting on our ad in the next TPJ issue to raise
awareness of the five public Perl classes we're running in Seattle
in February, including two by "The Perl Wonder from Down Under",
Dr. Damian Conway ( see http://www.consultix-inc.com/sched.html ).
In a last-ditch effort to get the word out in time, I managed
to get the nice people over at Linux Journal to squeeze our
ad into the next issue, after the closing deadline had already
passed. They are fans of TPJ too, and would hate to see the Perl
community damaged by its dissolution, so they're ready to help
TPJ subscribers with the special offer described below.

Please consider taking advantage of it!

-Tim
==========================================================
|  Tim Maher, Ph.D.           Tel: (206) 781-UNIX        |
|  SPUG Founder & Leader      Email: spug@halcyon.com    |
|  Seattle Perl Users Group   HTTP: www.halcyon.com/spug |
==========================================================

<Carlie Fairchild, LJ Speaking>

. . . please pass the word on that we'll offer any Perl Journal
(ex?)subscriber a free 6 month subscription to Linux Journal.
All they have to do is email khris@ssc.com before the end of
January and I'll take care of them from there. We have the great
'At the Forge' monthly series by Reuven Lerner featuring Perl
and I'm certain we can make sure Linux Journal sees an extra Perl
article or two within their subscription time.

</Carlie Fairchild, LJ Speaking>

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
 Carlie Fairchild     		  Mail:  P.O. Box 55549 Seattle, WA 98155 
 VP Marketing & Sales             Voice: 206-782-7733 ext 105
 SSC Publications	          Fax:   206-782-7191 
 www.linuxjournal.com	          Cell:  206-369-2048	  
 embedded.linuxjournal.com        Email: carlie@ssc.com
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

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From cie at tjchange.com  Wed Jan 10 16:28:00 2001
From: cie at tjchange.com (cie@tjchange.com)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: ADV: Help Students Take Charge of Their Education!
Message-ID: <200101101735615.SM00159@mail.tjchange.com>

The educational challenges presented to our students today are greater than at any time in our history.  Students need to learn more, faster, than ever before.  Science, technology, math, language, literature, art - the challenges in delivering an effective educational experience can be daunting.  But, did you know that there's help?

Continuous Improvement in Education (CIE) is a revolutionary approach to learning that is focused on meeting students' needs and enrolling students as owners of their own education.  Thousands of students have already benefited from this approach, and we're now making available one of the most popular tools in the CIE arsenal:  the CLASS PLANNING AND PROGRESS PORTFOLIO.  Using this tool, all students can enjoy the PROVEN benefits already achieved by thousands of others:
-	Improved academic results
-	Increased attendance
-	Increased classroom curriculum time
-	Reduced disciplinary actions

With the CLASS PLANNING AND PROGRESS PORTFOLIO, student, teacher and parent work as a learning team to set, evaluate and achieve educational objectives.  The CLASS PLANNING AND PROGRESS PORTFOLIO will:
-	Motivate the student to take charge of his or her learning
-	Create a collaborative learning environment for the student, teacher and parent.
-	Provide the student with clear and reliable knowledge and skill learning goals.
-	Give the student a clear understanding of WHY it's important to learn what's presented in class.
-	Give the student control over tracking, evaluating and rewarding his or her own progress.

The CLASS PLANNING AND PROGRESS PORTFOLIO can be downloaded using your Mastercard or Visa card from the CIE Network (www.my-cie.net) in versions for elementary/middle/high school students.  Best of all, it's only $19.95 and may be used for ALL the students in a class - that works out to around $1 per student!

Introduce yourself to Continuous Improvement in Education today at www.my-cie.net - a website dedicated to sharing tips, tools, workshops, news and successful practices from Continuous Improvement in Education around the country - from professional educators and learning stakeholders just like you!  You'll also find videos explaining more about the CLASS PLANNING AND PROGRESS PORTFOLIO, and other tools available for download that are specifically designed to help students www.my-cie.net/tools.htm (Trust and Respect Workbook, CIE Implementation Plan Template, etc.).

In exchange for this special offer on the CLASS PLANNING AND PROGRESS PORTFOLIO, we simply ask that you read and post comments on your successful practices using the tool so others around the nation can also benefit.

Working together, you'll be amazed at what our children can accomplish!


* * * * * * * * * * * *

To be removed from this mailing list, please send an email to info@my-cie.net with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line.


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From benjamin at golly.com  Wed Jan 10 18:25:46 2001
From: benjamin at golly.com (Benjamin Franks)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
Message-ID: <20010111002546.EB6A636F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

I'm looking part-time or contract based work in the Seattle area for Perl programming, sys admin, database admin, etc.?  Can anyone recommend good sources for information or listings?  Any particular web-sites, temp/placement agencies, etc.?

Thanks,
--Benjamin

_____________________________________________________________
Compare Prices online at http://www.golly.com

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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jan 10 11:29:13 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: DBI, Oop, & Int. Perl Classes in Feb
Message-ID: <20010110172913.A2672@timji.consultix.wa.com>

SPUGsters,

Thought some of you might like to know that Consultix is offering
5 public Perl classes in Bellevue next month, so I'm posting the
announcement we just sent to our customer mailing list FYI.  Full
details at our web site.

-Tim
*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
*========================================================================*

From:   Tim Maher, CONSULTIX
Topics:
 * Perl Discounts Expiring
 * Damian Conway's Perl classes in Feb.
 * Pre-reqs for Damian's class also offered in Feb.
 * We Need Beta-Testers for "Database Programming with Perl"
        -------------------------------------------
                 CONSULTIX FEBRUARY SCHEDULE
              Course               Dates    Days
          Database Prog. w/Perl  2/07-02/09   3  
          Intermediate Perl      2/12-02/14   3  
          Object-Oriented Perl   2/15-02/16   2  
          Data Munging           2/20-02/21   2  
          Advanced OO Perl       2/22-02/23   2 
        -------------------------------------------
* Discount Deadlines Looming

This Friday, Jan. 12th, is the deadline for getting the discount
(10% off) on the "Database Programming with Perl", "Intermediate
Perl", and "Basic Object Oriented Perl" classes running in
February.  As detailed on our website, payments or PO's must be
received by that date to qualify.

* The Damian-o-Rama Resumeth

Dr. Damian Conway, author of the groundbreaking book "Object
Oriented Perl", popular Perl Conference speaker, and award-winning
author of freely distributed Perl modules, will be presenting two
seminars in the Seattle area during February, 2001.  The first,
called "Data Munging", is about processing text with Perl, and
is suitable for beginning/intermediate level Perl programmers.
The second is his popular "Advanced Object Oriented Perl" seminar,
which requires firm intermediate-level skills, and benefits
from some previous exposure to object oriented programming.

Damian frequently teaches short seminars at Perl Conferences, but
it's a relatively rare event for him to appear in a long-format
public class.  Please consider taking advantage of this opportunity
to learn from him in the Seattle/Bellevue area!

* Adv. OOP Pre-requisite Courses Offered in Feb.

To help students whose skills might be somewhat lacking attend
Damian's Adv. OO Perl class during this special Seattle offering,
we've arranged our schedule to provide prerequisite courses in the
week preceding his seminars (http://www.consultix-inc.com/sched.html).

* Database Programming with Perl Needs "Beta Testers"

The "Perl DBI approach" to database programming allows one to write
generic database-access programs that can interface with any of the
popular database management systems (Oracle, Sybase, MySQL, etc.).

Colin Meyer, a local Perl expert with years of Fortune 500
Perl DBI/CGI experience, has just completed a new course on
this subject.  But the first offering of any new course always
gives a bumpy ride, so we're looking for some help in testing it!

Accordingly, we're trying to identify companies willing to
have us present this 2.5-3 day class at their facility, on
their equipment, and to their students, for a nominal fee.
Students would need to have intermediate level Perl skills,
as provided in our "Intermediate Perl Programming" course
(http://www.consultix-inc.com/int_perl.html).  For example, they
need to be comfortable handling references and nested hashes,
and calling methods provided by OO modules. They also need a
basic understanding of relational databases and the construction
of SQL queries.

Interested parties please contact Tim Maher (tim@consultix-inc.com)
with information about what dates suit you (the week of 1/29 is
the earliest opening currently available), how many students you'd
provide, their Perl skill levels, and what brand of database you
can provide on the class system.

NOTE: Individuals interested in participating in this
Beta-test should sign up for the 2/7-9 public class
(http://www.consultix-inc.com/cgibin/register.cgi); in this
announcement, we're just looking for *companies* willing to host
such a class on-site.

* Happy New Year!

Many thanks to our valued customers for making 2000 the
best year ever for Consultix!  We look forward to continuing to
serve your needs for UNIX, Linux, Shell, AWK, and Perl training
in this new millennium. 8-}

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
                   CONSULTIX ON-LINE RESOURCES

General Consultix information:
        http://www.consultix-inc.com/

On-Site training information:
        http://www.consultix-inc.com/on-site.html

Course Listings:
        UNIX/Shell, http://www.consultix-inc.com/unixlist.html
        AWK/Perl,   http://www.consultix-inc.com/perllist.html

Registration and Pricing: http://www.consultix-inc.com/reg.html
Instructor Evaluations:   http://www.consultix-inc.com/evals.html
Course Evaluations:       http://www.consultix-inc.com/course_evals.html

*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

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From slagel at geospiza.com  Wed Jan 10 18:38:25 2001
From: slagel at geospiza.com (Joe Slagel)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:50 2004
Subject: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
References: <20010111002546.EB6A636F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3A5D0081.F5E60E23@geospiza.com>

Benjamin Franks wrote:

> I'm looking part-time or contract based work in the Seattle area for Perl programming, sys admin, database admin, etc.?  Can anyone recommend good sources for information or listings?  Any particular web-sites, temp/placement agencies, etc.?
>
> Thanks,
> --Benjamin

I'd definitely recommend staying away from temp/placement agencies.  We've had some terrible experiences bringing people on through these agencies.  (Well, we DID have one good experience).

For the most part, they seem to troll monster.com and the like for resumes and then just regurgitate them back to the employers for a 20-40% of a years salary for a finder's fee.

My 2 cents,
Joe


--
Joe Slagel
Geospiza, Inc.
3939 Leary Way NW, Seattle WA 98107
(206) 633-4403
slagel@geospiza.com




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From mmertel at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jan 10 19:07:30 2001
From: mmertel at ix.netcom.com (Mark Mertel)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: PERL and CORBA
Message-ID: <3A5D0752.6EDD8E3@ix.netcom.com>

all,

is it possible to build a PERL client-server app using CORBA ? i've been
hunting and gathering on the net for a while looking for a solution to
this problem. there seems to be two approachs - COPE and CORBA::ORBit. i
like the look of the latter, in that it has a very straightforward
interface to the IDL - just point and click. COPE requires generation of
the various skeleton files. which - when building a client, doesn't
really matter, and is more in keeping, i think, with the standard CORBA
approach. i'll keep working on it, but my question to the group is - is
there anyone using these things in the Seattle area ? i could sure use
some advice.

thanks

mmertel@ix.netcom.com


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From starfire at zipcon.net  Wed Jan 10 20:58:58 2001
From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: PERL and CORBA
References: <3A5D0752.6EDD8E3@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c07b7a$74d0c740$650ff93f@adcom133>

If XML-RPC can do the job, I'd recommend going with it rather than CORBA.
XML-RPC is an emerging standard, whereas CORBA is getting crusty and has
some nasty limitations.

Richard.Anderson@unixscripts.com              RayCosoft, LLC
Perl/Java/Oracle/Unix software engineering    www.unixscripts.com
www.zipcon.net/~starfire/home                     Seattle, WA, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Mertel" <mmertel@ix.netcom.com>
To: <spug-list@pm.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 5:07 PM
Subject: SPUG: PERL and CORBA


> all,
>
> is it possible to build a PERL client-server app using CORBA ? i've been
> hunting and gathering on the net for a while looking for a solution to
> this problem. there seems to be two approachs - COPE and CORBA::ORBit. i
> like the look of the latter, in that it has a very straightforward
> interface to the IDL - just point and click. COPE requires generation of
> the various skeleton files. which - when building a client, doesn't
> really matter, and is more in keeping, i think, with the standard CORBA
> approach. i'll keep working on it, but my question to the group is - is
> there anyone using these things in the Seattle area ? i could sure use
> some advice.
>
> thanks
>
> mmertel@ix.netcom.com
>
>
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>   Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/
>
>
>


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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jan 10 22:10:11 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Jan & Feb Meeting Topics; Damian Seminars
Message-ID: <20010111041011.A3252@timji.consultix.wa.com>

INCLUDED ITEMS:
      Jan. Meeting: Intro. to Perl		(Tim Maher)
      Feb. Meeting: Whither Perl 6.0?		(Damian Conway)
Feb. Perl Seminars: Data Munging and Adv. OOP	(Damian Conway)

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
    Speaker:	Tim Maher, CONSULTIX
      Title:	Introduction to Perl
       Time:	January 16th, 2001 (Third Tuesday), 7:30pm-9pm**
   Location:	Union Bank of California Bldg, 5th Floor Mtg Room
       Cost:	Free!
		** NOTE: Meeting will start 30 minutes later than usual!

One of SPUG's New Year's Resolutions is to bring Perl newbies back into
the fold.  In the early days of SPUGgery, we had lots of them, but
as our members evolved and the topics became more advanced, abstract,
and downright bizarre (thanks Damian! 8-}), newbies began to disappear,
and are currently nowhere in evidence.

So the plan is that every 3rd meeting will be allocated to beginner's
topics, starting with this month's meeting.  The (3rd Tuesday) Newbie
Meetings are therefore expected to be 1/16, 4/17, 7/17, and 10/17, but
these dates might change as the year progresses.  Beginner-level topics
might be presented at other times too, of course.  The point is that
we want to ensure that we cater to newbies on a regular basis, to keep
them involved.

To kick off our renewed dedication to Perl Newbies, I'll be giving an
"Introduction to Perl" talk for our January meeting , in which I'll:

 * review the heritage, history, and people of Perl,
 * describe the current uses of the language,
 * give an introduction to Perl syntax and features, and
 # show some elementary Perl code.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
Special February Meeting:
    Title:	Whither Perl 6.0? 
    Speaker:	Dr. Damian Conway
		Indentured Servant #1 to Perl Community,
		via Perl Development Grant from "Yet Another Society"
       Time:	February 19th, 2001 (Third MONDAY), 7:00pm-9pm**
   Location:	Union Bank of California Bldg, 5th Floor Mtg Room

NOTE: Usual location and time, but Monday, rather than Tuesday!

Larry Wall announced at The Perl Conference in July, 2000 that the next
version of Perl (6.0) would be a community effort. The result was a
deluge of 361 submissions on proposed changes, ranging from from the
insanely clever to the merely insane.

Damian will bring us up to date on the latest developments in the Perl 6
design process and speculate on which of those changes we're most likely
to see when Perl 6.0 comes out later this year.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
Damian Conway Seminars (2/20-21, 2/22-23 2001):

It would be a shame to have Damian Conway in town and not pump him for as
much Perl knowledge as possible, so through an arrangement with Consultix
he'll be presenting two seminars from February 20-23 in the Seattle area
on the topics of "Data Munging" and "Advanced Object Oriented Perl".

Unlike Dr. Conway's SPUG addresses, which are intended to entertain
while showing interesting uses of Perl, these seminars are designed to
show programming professionals how to accomplish important tasks.

The Consultix web-site provides further details.

*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

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From creede at rrauto.com  Thu Jan 11 10:25:23 2001
From: creede at rrauto.com (Creede Lambard)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
References: <20010111002546.EB6A636F9@sitemail.everyone.net> <3A5D0081.F5E60E23@geospiza.com>
Message-ID: <019b01c07beb$18ebc710$1f4181ce@rrauto.com>

My exceptions to that would be:

1. If you really want to work at a place that only or primarily hires
through temp agencies (e.g. M$)

2. If you're just getting started and need someone to hold your hand while
you do.

3. If you just plain would rather have someone else worry about the
logistics of taxes, finding you work, and the like in exchange for less
money than you could get negotiating a job on your own.

I worked for Volt for 3 1/2 years at Microsoft and other places around
Seattle, and it was a good experience for me. I definitely fall into
category #3. (My last job at Volt directly resulted in the position I have
now.)

If you go this route you want to be careful in selecting your agency, and
find one that will take the same care in selecting you. You want an agency
that takes the time to screen its applicants and find good fits for them as
opposed to someone whose primary interest is in finding warm bodies to fill
its job orders.

my $opinion = sprintf("my \$%3.2f\n", 1/50);
As always, your mileage may vary.

Creede Lambard      | Never rush a miracle man.
Senior Developer    | You get rotten miracles.
Reynolds & Reynolds |
creede@rrauto.com   | - Miracle Max,
                    |    The Princess Bride


> Benjamin Franks wrote:
>
> > I'm looking part-time or contract based work in the Seattle area for
Perl programming, sys admin, database admin, etc.?  Can anyone recommend
good sources for information or listings?  Any particular web-sites,
temp/placement agencies, etc.?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --Benjamin
>
> I'd definitely recommend staying away from temp/placement agencies.  We've
had some terrible experiences bringing people on through these agencies.
(Well, we DID have one good experience).
>
> For the most part, they seem to troll monster.com and the like for resumes
and then just regurgitate them back to the employers for a 20-40% of a years
salary for a finder's fee.
>
> My 2 cents,
> Joe



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From slagel at geospiza.com  Thu Jan 11 11:25:33 2001
From: slagel at geospiza.com (Joe Slagel)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
References: <20010111002546.EB6A636F9@sitemail.everyone.net> <3A5D0081.F5E60E23@geospiza.com> <019b01c07beb$18ebc710$1f4181ce@rrauto.com>
Message-ID: <3A5DEC8D.D99C6136@geospiza.com>

> If you go this route you want to be careful in selecting your agency, and
> find one that will take the same care in selecting you. You want an agency
> that takes the time to screen its applicants and find good fits for them as
> opposed to someone whose primary interest is in finding warm bodies to fill
> its job orders.

Good point, I guess I should restate my eariler opinion, and say the you want
to be *really* careful about what agency or agencies you choose to use.  Most
of them are good and can place someone at a good job, but there are ones out
there that are very unreputable.  I think people looking for new positions are
better off just doing a little bit of research and trying to contact companies
directly.   Should a match occur, it's a win-win situtation for both the
employer and job hunter because the employer doesn't have to pay a recruiting
fee, and the job hunter is in more control of the terms and price.

But then again, if you are in a hurry or looking for the quickest way to get a
large number of offers, I guess a recruiting firm is the way to go.

- Joe

--
Joe Slagel
Geospiza, Inc.
3939 Leary Way NW, Seattle WA 98107
(206) 633-4403
slagel@geospiza.com




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From cmeyer at helvella.org  Thu Jan 11 13:15:01 2001
From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: PERL and CORBA
In-Reply-To: <003c01c07b7a$74d0c740$650ff93f@adcom133>
References: <3A5D0752.6EDD8E3@ix.netcom.com> <003c01c07b7a$74d0c740$650ff93f@adcom133>
Message-ID: <20010111111501.Q2220@hobart.helvella.org>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2001 at 06:58:58PM -0800, Richard Anderson wrote:
> If XML-RPC can do the job, I'd recommend going with it rather than CORBA.
> XML-RPC is an emerging standard, whereas CORBA is getting crusty and has
> some nasty limitations.

I second that!  XML-RPC is *very* easy to use from Perl or many other 
common languages.  The technologies involved are simple and common: xml,
http.  The first time I tried XML-RPC, it took about an hour to set up
a (perl based) server that a python program could contact, run code, and
retrieve results from.

SOAP is another RPC like protocol that is quite similar to XML-RPC, but 
is a little more complex and difficult to use.  Because of the complexity,
not all SOAP implementations are compatible with eachother.  

-C.

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From davidpa at avaya.com  Thu Jan 11 12:16:42 2001
From: davidpa at avaya.com (Patterson, David S (Pat))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
Message-ID: <F38563CD80EED111B62A00A0C9AAF76A01810F7E@redex02.red.dgtl.com>

I've got to chime in here.  When I got out of the military in 1992, I
contracted for projects thru 8 different agencies until mid-1999.  Each
time, I made a deal with the agency that I could live with.  Each time, I
worked hard on the client companies' projects.  Each time, I got a lot of
experience on diverse areas of software development and improved my skills
and beefed up my resume.  Each time, I made more money than I did on the
previous project.  I did not make the mistake of believing that the
consulting agencies were anything more than a job broker.  When I finally
decided to commit to full time employment at my present firm, they were
already familiar with me and my skills and made SEVERAL offers of employment
to me, eventually making me "an offer I could not refuse"...  I'm now making
3 X what I made in 1992, with full benefits and vacation to boot.

Bottom line.  There's nothing wrong with being a contractor.  There's
nothing wrong with working for an agency, as long as they live up to their
end of the agreements they make.  Don't begrudge them their cut if you can
make a deal with them that you can live with.  Contracting can be a vehicle
to gaining lots of variety and experience in your career.

FWIW,
> 	---
		"rw-rw-rw-: The file protection of the beast..."

> 	D. S. "Pat" Patterson
> 	Software Engineer
> 	Avaya, Inc.
> 	6464 185th Ave NE
> 	Redmond, WA  98052-6736
> 	425-558-8672
> 	888-501-4835 Pgr
> 	davidpa@avaya.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Joe Slagel [SMTP:slagel@geospiza.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 11, 2001 9:26 AM
> To:	spug-list@pm.org
> Subject:	Re: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
> 
> > If you go this route you want to be careful in selecting your agency,
> and
> > find one that will take the same care in selecting you. You want an
> agency
> > that takes the time to screen its applicants and find good fits for them
> as
> > opposed to someone whose primary interest is in finding warm bodies to
> fill
> > its job orders.
> 
> Good point, I guess I should restate my eariler opinion, and say the you
> want
> to be *really* careful about what agency or agencies you choose to use.
> Most
> of them are good and can place someone at a good job, but there are ones
> out
> there that are very unreputable.  I think people looking for new positions
> are
> better off just doing a little bit of research and trying to contact
> companies
> directly.   Should a match occur, it's a win-win situtation for both the
> employer and job hunter because the employer doesn't have to pay a
> recruiting
> fee, and the job hunter is in more control of the terms and price.
> 
> But then again, if you are in a hurry or looking for the quickest way to
> get a
> large number of offers, I guess a recruiting firm is the way to go.
> 
> - Joe
> 
> --
> Joe Slagel
> Geospiza, Inc.
> 3939 Leary Way NW, Seattle WA 98107
> (206) 633-4403
> slagel@geospiza.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From davidpa at avaya.com  Wed Jan 10 19:32:59 2001
From: davidpa at avaya.com (Patterson, David S (Pat))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: PERL and CORBA
Message-ID: <F38563CD80EED111B62A00A0C9AAF76A01810F7C@redex02.red.dgtl.com>

I use perl.  I use CORBA.  I don't use perl with CORBA.  I'd be game to try
it, however!  (A successful demo would really frighten the C++ bigots around
here!! ;-)

> 	---
		"rw-rw-rw-: The file protection of the beast..."

> 	D. S. "Pat" Patterson
> 	Software Engineer
> 	Avaya, Inc.
> 	6464 185th Ave NE
> 	Redmond, WA  98052-6736
> 	425-558-8672
> 	888-501-4835 Pgr
> 	davidpa@avaya.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Mark Mertel [SMTP:mmertel@ix.netcom.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 10, 2001 5:08 PM
> To:	spug-list@pm.org
> Subject:	SPUG: PERL and CORBA
> 
> all,
> 
> is it possible to build a PERL client-server app using CORBA ? i've been
> hunting and gathering on the net for a while looking for a solution to
> this problem. there seems to be two approachs - COPE and CORBA::ORBit. i
> like the look of the latter, in that it has a very straightforward
> interface to the IDL - just point and click. COPE requires generation of
> the various skeleton files. which - when building a client, doesn't
> really matter, and is more in keeping, i think, with the standard CORBA
> approach. i'll keep working on it, but my question to the group is - is
> there anyone using these things in the Seattle area ? i could sure use
> some advice.
> 
> thanks
> 
> mmertel@ix.netcom.com
> 
> 
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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Thu Jan 11 12:56:23 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: YAPC 2001, Montreal in June
Message-ID: <20010111185623.A2129@timji.consultix.wa.com>

----- Forwarded message from kevin lenzo <lenzo@cs.cmu.edu> -----

          # CFP in English, followed by French (see below) #

        Third North American YAPC: First Call for Participation

                         Yet Another Society
                  calls for your participation in

                              YAPC 2001
                      the Third North American
                    Yet Another Perl Conference

                      http://yapc.org/America/ 

                          McGill University,
                           Montreal, Quebec 

                       Wednesday through Friday
                           June 13-15, 2001 

YAPC is a place for people to meet and talk about Perl -- where people
who've done interesting things, people who are working on the language
itself, people who are using it daily, and people who are looking to
learn about it are all within arm's reach. Some of the great authors
and coders in the field will be on hand to discuss their work, as well
as the nature and direction of Perl itself.

Please join us for three days of listening and talking about Perl in
Montreal.

* Conference registration will be available by Feb. 1, 2001 at 
                http://na-register.yapc.org/ 

* Dorm rooms will be available at the University (rates TBA); the dorm
  request information will be on the website and registration form.
  Registration Cost: CAD$125 (about USD$85) 

* We are looking for sponsors. Please contact Kevin Lenzo
  (lenzo@yapc.org) for information about how you can help support the
  Yet Another society and YAPC. Much of the necessary funding for YAPC
  comes from the generous donations of our sponsors.

* Submitted papers: 
                    Submission Deadline: May 1, 2001 

All topics are welcome. Here is a short list of subjects that might
be presented:

    XML, CGI/Web, Interprocess Communication, GUIs (GTk, Tk), Natural
    Language Processing, Interactive Perl, Agents, Perl as Glue,
    Object-Oriented Perl, Scientific Applications, Guts, Internals, 
    JAPHs, Perl Poetry, System Administration, DBI/DBD, Non-UNIX Perl, 
    Security, Peer-to-Peer Communication, Your Favourite Topic.

Please submit your abstracts to <na-author@yapc.org>. Authors are
requested to limit their abstracts to one or two paragraphs for
Lightning Talks, and to 300 words for other talks.

This year we will accept a number of types of talks: 

  * Lightning: 5 minutes 

    The lightning talks were instigated by Mark-Jason Dominus last 
    year in Pittsburgh, and were replicated with great success at 
    the European YAPC in London.

    Participants speak for no more than five minutes, with the use 
    of conventional transparencies. Any use of data projector, etc, 
    is discouraged, but allowed as long as the five minute time limit 
    is maintained (set-up will be done as the clock ticks). The talk 
    ends at the five-minute mark, regardless of whether or not the 
    speaker has finished.

    Any topic is allowed, and some have been fantastically humourous. 
    Lightning talks are an excellent forum for first-time speakers.

  * Standard: 20 minutes 

    A 'standard' talk is the preferred format. This is enough time 
    to start a topic, introduce it with some pithy slides, and open 
    up to later conversation.

  * Long and Extra-Long: 45 minutes, 90 minutes 

    Long talks are reserved for experienced speakers covering large
    topics. If you have an in-depth topic you would like to present 
    in some detail, perhaps with considerable discussion, a Long or
    Extra-Long talk may be the format of choice.

  * Tutorial: 3 hours + break (possibly in two sets) 

    Half-day (or possibly full-day) tutorials. 

Please submit your abstracts to <na-author@yapc.org>! 

--

Yet Another Society is a non-profit organization for the advancement
of collaborative efforts in computer and information sciences.  YAS
promotes symposia, teaching, and group projects. See
http://yetanother.org for more information.

--------------


   Troisime YAPC Amrique du Nord: premier appel  la participation

                      Yet Another Society
                   vous invite  participer  

                            YAPC 2001
                           La troisime
                   Yet Another Perl Conference
                       en Amrique du Nord

                     http://yapc.org/America/ 

                        Universit McGill,
                         Montral, Qubec 

                      Du mercredi au vendredi
                       13 au 15 juin, 2001

YAPC est un endroit o se rencontrer et parler de Perl; o sont runis
des gens qui ont fait des choses intressantes, qui travaillent sur le
langage lui-mme, qui utilisent ce langage tous les jours et qui
veulent en apprendre plus. Quelques uns des meilleurs auteurs et
codeurs dans le domaine seront prsents pour discuter de leur travail,
ainsi que de la nature et de l'avenir du langage Perl lui-mme.

Joignez-vous donc  nous  Montral pendant trois jours pour parler et
entendre parler de Perl.

Inscrivez-vous  la confrence ds le 1er fvrier:
            http://na-register.yapc.org/ 

* Des rsidences tudiantes pour les participants seront disponibles
  sur le campus de l'universit (les tarifs seront annoncs plus
  tard); le formulaire d'inscription donnera toutes les informations
  ncessaires  ce sujet.
  Frais d'inscription  la confrence: 125$CDN (environ 85$US). 

* Nous sommes  la recherche de commanditaires. Veuillez contacter
  Kevin Lenzo (lenzo@yapc.org) pour savoir comment vous pouvez
  encourager la Yet Another Society et YAPC. Une grande partie des
  fonds ncessaires  YAPC proviennent en effet des gnreuses
  contributions de nos commanditaires.

* Date de tombe pour la soumission des communications: 1er mai 2001 

Tous les sujets sont bienvenus. Voici une liste non-exhaustive de
sujets possibles:

  XML, CGI/web, communication inter-processus, GUIs (Gtk, Tk),
  traitement du langage naturel, Perl interactif,agents, Perl comme
  langage-"colle", Perl orient-objet, applications scientifiques,
  entrailles, JAPHs, posie Perl,administration de systmes, DBI/DBD,
  Perl non-Unix, scurit, communication 'peer-to-peer', ...

Veuillez soumettre vos rsums  <na-author@yapc.org>. Les auteurs
sont pris de limiter leurs rsums  un ou deux paragraphes pour les
communications clair, et  300 mots pour les autres communications.

Cette anne, nous acceptons plusieurs sortes de communications: 

* Communication clair: 5 minutes 

  Les communications clair ont t introduites l't dernier 
  Pittsburgh par Mark-Jason Dominus et ont t reprises avec beaucoup
  de succs au YAPC europen  Londres.

  Les participants disposent d'un maximum de cinq minutes pour
  prsenter leur communication, habituellement  l'aide d'un
  rtroprojecteur. Tout autre mcanisme de prsentation est 
  dconseill, mais permis dans la mesure o la limite de cinq minutes
  est respecte (l'installation se fait pendant que le temps s'coule). 
  La communication se termine au bout de cinq minutes, que le
  prsentateur ait termin ou non.

  Tout sujet est accept, et cela a donn lieu dans le pass  des
  communications hautement humoristiques. Les communications clair
  constituent un excellent forum pour des gens qui en sont  leurs
  premires prsentations.

* Standard: 20 minutes 

  La communication standard constitue le format prfr. Il y a
  suffisamment de temps pour introduire le sujet, prsenter quelques
  transparents bien choisis et permettre la discussion.

* Longue et extra-longue: 45 minutes, 90 minutes 

  Ces communications sont rserves aux prsentateurs expriments et
  elles couvrent des sujets plus vastes. Si vous dsirez prsenter un
  sujet et le discuter en dtail, ce format pourrait s'avrer appropri.

* Tutoriel: 3 heures + une pause 

  Tutoriels d'une demi-journe, et possiblement d'une journe complte. 


Veuillez sounmettre vos rsums  <na-author@yapc.org>! 

Nous vous remercions et nous esprons que vous participerez en grand
nombre. Si vous avez des questions, communiquez avec <na-help@yapc.org>. 

--

Yet Another Society est une socit  but non-lucratif voue 
l'avancement d'efforts colaboratifs en informatique et en sciences de
l'information. YAS promouvoit des symposiums, de l'enseignement et des
projets de groupe. Pour plus d'informations, voir http://yetanother.org/.

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----- End forwarded message -----

==========================================================
|  Tim Maher, Ph.D.           Tel: (206) 781-UNIX        |
|  SPUG Founder & Leader      Email: spug@halcyon.com    |
|  Seattle Perl Users Group   HTTP: www.halcyon.com/spug |
==========================================================

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From greg at mccarroll.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan 11 15:32:14 2001
From: greg at mccarroll.demon.co.uk (Greg McCarroll)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: PERL and CORBA
In-Reply-To: <20010111111501.Q2220@hobart.helvella.org>; from cmeyer@helvella.org on Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 11:15:01AM -0800
References: <3A5D0752.6EDD8E3@ix.netcom.com> <003c01c07b7a$74d0c740$650ff93f@adcom133> <20010111111501.Q2220@hobart.helvella.org>
Message-ID: <20010111213214.A5973@mccarroll.demon.co.uk>

* Colin Meyer (cmeyer@helvella.org) wrote:
> 
> not all SOAP implementations are compatible with eachother.  
> 

are you talking about M$'s here? there has been a lot of complaints
on the microsoft soap sdk usenet group about this. naturally people
accused them of hijacking the standard, however their representatives
have assured the group that it is only because its beta.

anyway the SOAP having said that, SOAP::Lite (see CPAN) by Paul Kulchenko
is a very nice implementation (imho)

- greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll                          http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

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From jeff at planetoid.net  Thu Jan 11 17:07:47 2001
From: jeff at planetoid.net (jeff)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: PERL and CORBA
References: <3A5D0752.6EDD8E3@ix.netcom.com> <003c01c07b7a$74d0c740$650ff93f@adcom133> <20010111111501.Q2220@hobart.helvella.org>
Message-ID: <3A5E3CC3.B3B78E60@planetoid.net>

any good links for docs on xml-rpc


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From fossumar at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 11 17:19:53 2001
From: fossumar at hotmail.com (Aaron Fossum)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
Message-ID: <OE21Ul1GSheImNsfsZJ00006421@hotmail.com>

I've got to agree that contracting can be an excellent vehicle for increasing your wage while gaining experience.  I've been contracting through Compuware corporation for just under a year, and have been very happy with my experience with them.

After graduating from college in May 1999, I went to work for a .com as a full-time employee, for a wage that was good compared to what other college grads, but nowhere near what the market was bearing.  When the company was acquired, I went to work for Compuware and nearly doubled my wage.

Another tip if you're considering a contract position.  Most agencies offer finders fees for their employees who recommend a candidate who ends up working for the agency.  So if you've got any friends that are contractors, give them your resume so they can forward it to their agency and ca$h in.

Or, you could hook up with one of the kind folks on the SPUGlist here... ;)  Just kidding.



----- Original Message -----
From: Patterson, David S (Pat)
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 10:39 AM
To: spug-list@pm.org
Subject: RE: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?


I've got to chime in here.  When I got out of the military in 1992, I
contracted for projects thru 8 different agencies until mid-1999.  Each
time, I made a deal with the agency that I could live with.  Each time, I
worked hard on the client companies' projects.  Each time, I got a lot of
experience on diverse areas of software development and improved my skills
and beefed up my resume.  Each time, I made more money than I did on the
previous project.  I did not make the mistake of believing that the
consulting agencies were anything more than a job broker.  When I finally
decided to commit to full time employment at my present firm, they were
already familiar with me and my skills and made SEVERAL offers of employment
to me, eventually making me "an offer I could not refuse"...  I'm now making
3 X what I made in 1992, with full benefits and vacation to boot.

Bottom line.  There's nothing wrong with being a contractor.  There's
nothing wrong with working for an agency, as long as they live up to their
end of the agreements they make.  Don't begrudge them their cut if you can
make a deal with them that you can live with.  Contracting can be a vehicle
to gaining lots of variety and experience in your career.

FWIW,
> ---
"rw-rw-rw-: The file protection of the beast..."

> D. S. "Pat" Patterson
> Software Engineer
> Avaya, Inc.
> 6464 185th Ave NE
> Redmond, WA  98052-6736
> 425-558-8672
> 888-501-4835 Pgr
> davidpa@avaya.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Slagel [SMTP:slagel@geospiza.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 9:26 AM
> To: spug-list@pm.org
> Subject: Re: SPUG: recommendations for job sources?
>
> > If you go this route you want to be careful in selecting your agency,
> and
> > find one that will take the same care in selecting you. You want an
> agency
> > that takes the time to screen its applicants and find good fits for them
> as
> > opposed to someone whose primary interest is in finding warm bodies to
> fill
> > its job orders.
>
> Good point, I guess I should restate my eariler opinion, and say the you
> want
> to be *really* careful about what agency or agencies you choose to use.
> Most
> of them are good and can place someone at a good job, but there are ones
> out
> there that are very unreputable.  I think people looking for new positions
> are
> better off just doing a little bit of research and trying to contact
> companies
> directly.   Should a match occur, it's a win-win situtation for both the
> employer and job hunter because the employer doesn't have to pay a
> recruiting
> fee, and the job hunter is in more control of the terms and price.
>
> But then again, if you are in a hurry or looking for the quickest way to
> get a
> large number of offers, I guess a recruiting firm is the way to go.
>
> - Joe
>
> --
> Joe Slagel
> Geospiza, Inc.
> 3939 Leary Way NW, Seattle WA 98107
> (206) 633-4403
> slagel@geospiza.com
>
>
>
>
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From briani at activestate.com  Thu Jan 11 18:19:18 2001
From: briani at activestate.com (Brian Ingerson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: PERL and CORBA
References: <3A5D0752.6EDD8E3@ix.netcom.com> <003c01c07b7a$74d0c740$650ff93f@adcom133> <20010111111501.Q2220@hobart.helvella.org> <20010111213214.A5973@mccarroll.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A5E4D86.457F180C@activestate.com>

Greg McCarroll wrote:
> 
> anyway the SOAP having said that, SOAP::Lite (see CPAN) by Paul Kulchenko
> is a very nice implementation (imho)

We use SOAP::Lite a lot here at ActiveState. In fact the 'ppm search'
command now uses SOAP::Lite to query the ActiveState site for Perl
module information. We used to use SOAP.pm internally, but it had some
weird firewall issues that using SOAP::Lite resolved.

-- 
perl -le 'use Inline C=>q{SV*JAxH(char*x){return newSVpvf
("Just Another %s Hacker",x);}};print JAxH+Perl'

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From Bhargava at drugstore.com  Thu Jan 11 21:45:53 2001
From: Bhargava at drugstore.com (Bhargava Vadapalli)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: perl question...
Message-ID: <9D47BE495A6ED311B4A80008C7736052044A0DFD@seaems001c.corp.drugstore.com>

I was wondering if anyone can help me run a perl program as a background
process.

I am being lazy and asking you all instead of finding out for myself...but
hey why re-invent the wheel !!

Thanks much
Bhargava

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From tuck at whistlingfish.net  Fri Jan 12 13:40:32 2001
From: tuck at whistlingfish.net (Matt Tucker)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: perl question...
In-Reply-To: <9D47BE495A6ED311B4A80008C7736052044A0DFD@seaems001c.corp.drugstore.com>
Message-ID: <156160000.979328432@benzene>

-- Bhargava Vadapalli <Bhargava@drugstore.com> spake thusly:

> I was wondering if anyone can help me run a perl program as a
> background process.
>
> I am being lazy and asking you all instead of finding out for
> myself...but hey why re-invent the wheel !!

    $ perl <scriptname> &

or even:

    $ /path/to/script &

Or did you want it to background itself?

    #!/usr/bin/perl

    use warnings;
    use strict;

    exit &main();

    sub main {
        my $pid = fork;
        defined $pid or die "Can't fork";
        return 0 if $pid;

        # You could close stdout/stderr here if you wanted, and
        # send all output to syslog or something

        # <Do whatever needs doing>

        return 0;
    }
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From avinashj at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 12 14:49:52 2001
From: avinashj at yahoo.com (Avinash Jaisinghani)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: perl question...
Message-ID: <20010112204952.29571.qmail@web2303.mail.yahoo.com>

Or if you want a way w/o fork 
you can run this as

$$ ./bgtest y
$$

<code>
#!/usr/local/bin/perl


my $isbg = @ARGV[0];

if ( $isbg eq 'y' ) {
    system("path/to/bgtest &");
}
else {
    main();
}

exit(0);

sub main {
    # do stuff here
    # blah here
}

</code>
Of course Matt's way is better.

-A
--- Matt Tucker <tuck@whistlingfish.net> wrote:
> -- Bhargava Vadapalli <Bhargava@drugstore.com> spake
> thusly:
> 
> > I was wondering if anyone can help me run a perl
> program as a
> > background process.
> >
> > I am being lazy and asking you all instead of
> finding out for
> > myself...but hey why re-invent the wheel !!
> 
>     $ perl <scriptname> &
> 
> or even:
> 
>     $ /path/to/script &
> 
> Or did you want it to background itself?
> 
>     #!/usr/bin/perl
> 
>     use warnings;
>     use strict;
> 
>     exit &main();
> 
>     sub main {
>         my $pid = fork;
>         defined $pid or die "Can't fork";
>         return 0 if $pid;
> 
>         # You could close stdout/stderr here if you
> wanted, and
>         # send all output to syslog or something
> 
>         # <Do whatever needs doing>
> 
>         return 0;
>     }
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature 



=====
asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./qwertyuiop[]\

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

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From starfire at zipcon.net  Sat Jan 13 11:12:15 2001
From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: HTTP::WebTest released to CPAN
Message-ID: <042d01c07d84$5db03d00$650ff93f@adcom133>

As some of you know, I've been working on a Perl module for unit testing of
remote URL's or local web files containing Perl/HTML/Javascript/etc.  This
was released to CPAN today and is available for download.  Here are the
particulars:

NAME
    HTTP::WebTest - Test remote URLs or local web files

DESCRIPTION
    This module runs tests on remote URLs or local web files containing
    Perl/HTML/JavaScript/etc. and generates a detailed test report. The
    test specifications can be read from a parameter file or input as
    method arguments. If you are testing a local file, Apache is
    started on a private/dynamic port with a configuration file in a
    temporary directory.  The module displays the test results on the
    terminal by default or directs them to a file. The module will also
    optionally e-mails the test results. When the calling program
    exits, the module stops the local instance of Apache and deletes
    the temporary directory.

    Each test consists of literal strings or regular expressions that
    are either required to exist or forbidden to exist in the fetched
    page. You can also specify tests for the minimum and maximum number
    of bytes in the returned page. If you are testing a local file, the
    module checks the error log in the temporary directory before and
    after the file is fetched from Apache. If messages are written to
    the error log during the fetch, the module flags this as an error
    and writes the messages to the output test report.

SYNOPSIS
     This module can accept input parameters from a parameter file or
     subroutine arguments.

     TO RUN WEB TESTS DEFINED BY SUBROUTINE ARGUMENTS:

     use HTTP::WebTest; run_web_test(\@web_tests, \$num_fail,
        \$num_succeed, \%test_options)

     or

     use HTTP::WebTest; run_web_test(\@web_tests, \$num_fail,
        \$num_succeed)

     TO RUN WEB TESTS DEFINED BY A PARAMETER FILE:

     use sigtrap qw(die normal-signals); # Recommended, not necessary
     use HTTP::WebTest; $webtest = HTTP::WebTest->new();
     $webtest->web_test('my_web_tests.wt', \$num_fail, \$num_succeed);

     The web_test() method has an option to test a local file by
     starting Apache on a private port, copying the file to a temporary
     htdocs directory and fetching the page from Apache.  If you are
     testing with multiple parameter files, you can avoid restarting
     Apache each time by calling new() only once and recycling the
     object:

     use sigtrap qw(die normal-signals); # Recommended, not necessary
     use HTTP::WebTest;
     $webtest = HTTP::WebTest->new();
     foreach $file (@ARGV) {
        $webtest->web_test($file, \$num_fail, \$num_succeed);
     }

     TO ENABLE DEBUGGING MESSAGES (OUTPUT TO STDOUT):

     If you are calling the web_test method, use the debug parameter.
     If you are calling the run_web_test method, do this:

     use HTTP::WebTest;
     $HTTP::WebTest::Debug = 1; # Diagnostic messages
     $HTTP::WebTest::Debug = 2; # Messages and preserve temp Apache dir
     run_web_test(\@web_tests, \$num_fail, \$num_succeed)

RESTRICTIONS / BUGS
    This module only works on Unix (e.g., Solaris, Linux, AIX, etc.).
    The module's HTTP requests time out after 3 minutes (the default
    value for LWP::UserAgent). If the file_path parameter is specified,
    Apache must be installed. If the file_path parameter is specified,
    the directory /tmp cannot be NFS-mounted, since Apache's lockfile
    and the SSL mutex file must be stored on a local disk.

VERSION
    This document describes version 0.01, release date 13 January 2001.

TODO
    Add option to validate HTML syntax using HTML::Validator. Add
    option to check links (see
    http://world.std.com/~swmcd/steven/perl/pm/lc/linkcheck.html).

AUTHOR
     Richard Anderson <Richard.Anderson@unixscripts.com>

COPYRIGHT
    Copyright (c) 2000 Richard Anderson. All rights reserved. This
    module is free software. It may be used, redistributed and/or
    modified under the terms of the Perl Artistic License.

Richard.Anderson@unixscripts.com              RayCosoft, LLC
Perl/Java/Oracle/Unix software engineering    www.unixscripts.com
www.zipcon.net/~starfire/home                     Seattle, WA, USA



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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Mon Jan 15 21:21:50 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Tuesday's Meeting
Message-ID: <20010116032150.A6399@timji.consultix.wa.com>

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
    Speaker:	Tim Maher, CONSULTIX
      Title:	Introduction to Perl
       Time:	January 16th, 2001 (Third Tuesday), 7:30pm-9pm**
   Location:	Union Bank of California Bldg, 5th Floor Mtg Room
       Cost:	Free!
		** NOTE: Meeting will start 30 minutes later than usual!

One of SPUG's New Year's Resolutions is to bring Perl newbies back into
the fold.  In the early days of SPUGgery, we had lots of them, but
as our members evolved and the topics became more advanced, abstract,
and downright bizarre (thanks Damian! 8-}), newbies began to disappear,
and are currently nowhere in evidence.

To kick off our renewed dedication to Perl Newbies, I'll be giving an
"Introduction to Perl" talk for our January meeting , in which I'll:

 * review the heritage, history, and people of Perl,
 * describe the current uses of the language,
 * give an introduction to Perl syntax and features, and
 # show some elementary Perl code.

*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

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From starfire at zipcon.net  Mon Jan 15 22:50:08 2001
From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Fw: O'Reilly Seeks Open Source and Perl Experts
Message-ID: <052601c07f77$cf70dd10$650ff93f@adcom133>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Denise Olliffe" <deniseo@oreilly.com>
To: <Richard.Anderson@unixscripts.com>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 4:19 PM
Subject: O'Reilly Seeks Open Source and Perl Experts


> O'Reilly User Group Program Members:
> 
> O'REILLY SEEKS OPEN SOURCE AND PERL EXPERTS TO PRESENT AT 
> THE O'REILLY OPEN SOURCE CONVENTION AND PERL CONFERENCE 5.0
> July 23-27, 2001 in San Diego, CA
> 
> Developer & Programmer Convention Focuses on Emerging Techniques for
> Open Source and Perl Communities
> 
> O'Reilly & Associates has posted a Call for Participation soliciting
> masters of Open Source and Perl technologies, who are interested in
> leading tutorial and conference sessions at the 2001 O'Reilly Open
> Source Convention and Perl Conference 5. Session speakers are sought
> for three classes of talks: tutorial programs, convention
> presentations, and refereed papers.
> 
> The submission deadline for all proposals is February 1, 2001.
> Presenters will be notified of selection results by March 1, 2001.
> 
> For complete information about our submission and acceptance process
> for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, go to,
> http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon2001/call.html
> 
> The program committee invites submissions of tutorials or convention
> presentations on topics of interest to programmers. The tracks at the
> Open Source Convention will be:
> 
> XML 
> MySQL 
> Apache 
> PHP 
> Python 
> Mozilla 
> Linux 
> Tcl 
> Zope
> 
> For complete information about our submission and acceptance process
> for the O'Reilly Perl Conference 5, go to,
> http://conferences.oreilly.com/perl5/
> 
> Here are some suggested topics for Perl proposals: 
> 
> Perl 6 
> Perl 5 
> Internals 
> Threads 
> The Web 
> I18N/L10N XML 
> SOAP/XML-RPC/CORBA 
> LDAP 
> Linking Perl and C/C++/Java 
> The Compiler 
> Databases 
> GUIs and Graphics 
> P2P 
> .NET
> 
> Please pass this information along to your members.
> 
> If you would like to post a banner on your website for the O'Reilly
> Open Source Convention and/or Perl Conference 5.0, please contact me.
> 
> If you would like brochures for the either, I'd be happy to send some
> once they are released--just let me know how many.
> 
> Thanks,
> Denise
> 


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From jcokos at ccs.net  Wed Jan 17 09:43:42 2001
From: jcokos at ccs.net (John Cokos)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent? 
Message-ID: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>

Working on a long running perl script, that I think would be better suited to using fork() than running on it's own.

Basically, the pseudocode for it is something like this:



code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------my @to_do_list

push @to_do_list, $something;

foreach my $item ( @to_do_list ) {

    .. do some work.
    if ( I find something else to do)  {
       push @to_do_list, $this_new_thing;
    }

}
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, you can see that it's an array that can be added to in mid-stream, and continually grows. Depending on the amount of things
"found to do" in the inside loop, it can take hours and hours to run, as that array grows larger.

What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child processes, and have each of them doing the same loop, each aware of the master array's
contents, and each able to push things onto it, so that the other children, when they're in the loop see the new todo items...

Can the children intercommunicate?

If not, can they at least return a value back to the parent?
In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a task, get back the new todo items found, and die. Then, fork 10 new kids, etc
....

Thanks, John
========================================
  John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
  http://www.iwebsys.com
  jcokos@ccs.net
========================================



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From jeremy at weezel.com  Wed Jan 17 10:10:15 2001
From: jeremy at weezel.com (Jeremy Devenport)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent? 
In-Reply-To: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>
Message-ID: <NEBBKNOKALGEPGHEDMHECEADCAAA.jeremy@weezel.com>

On a related note, does anybody know the current state of threads in perl? I
imagine they're probably still experimental but do they work enough to play
with? on windows? on *BSD?

# Jeremy Devenport
# ----------------
@? && print $?[4.8-($?/5)+($?++%5*5)] for @? = split
??, q?creAJklrnue  osrHPtt aeh ?, @? - $? && $? + @?;

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of
John Cokos
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 7:44 AM
To: spug-list@pm.org
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?


Working on a long running perl script, that I think would be better suited
to using fork() than running on it's own.

Basically, the pseudocode for it is something like this:



code:-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------my @to_do_list

push @to_do_list, $something;

foreach my $item ( @to_do_list ) {

    .. do some work.
    if ( I find something else to do)  {
       push @to_do_list, $this_new_thing;
    }

}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


So, you can see that it's an array that can be added to in mid-stream, and
continually grows. Depending on the amount of things
"found to do" in the inside loop, it can take hours and hours to run, as
that array grows larger.

What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child processes, and have each of
them doing the same loop, each aware of the master array's
contents, and each able to push things onto it, so that the other children,
when they're in the loop see the new todo items...

Can the children intercommunicate?

If not, can they at least return a value back to the parent?
In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a task, get back the new
todo items found, and die. Then, fork 10 new kids, etc
....

Thanks, John
========================================
  John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
  http://www.iwebsys.com
  jcokos@ccs.net
========================================



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From wildwood_players at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 17 10:28:12 2001
From: wildwood_players at yahoo.com (Richard Wood)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent? 
Message-ID: <20010117162812.38480.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com>

John, 

I do something very similar to this, and I still have
a dilemma with it.  What I do is to find out how many
processes I need to fork, then I set up bidirectional
socket-pairs to use between the parent and children,
then I fork the children.  The parent then goes into a
loop of sending messages to every child followed by a
loop of waiting for a response from every child prior
to going on to the next message.  The parent is in an
outer loop of looking for and processing scripts which
may or may not have commands for every child process. 
If a child process is not supposed to receive a
command, I just send it a DUMMY command which it echos
back.

The children are in a loop waiting for messages from
the parent upon which they take action and report back
to the parent.

The part I haven't worked out is what to do if a child
hangs.  Hopefully, other responses to your email will
give me some ideas on that.

This is related to your situation since you add
processes along the way.  Well, maybe this will help
and maybe not.

####################################################
# estab_socket();
####################################################

sub estab_socket {
    my $site = shift;
    my $pSoxR = shift;
    my $cSoxR = shift;

    my $Parent = "Parent"."$site";
    my $Child = "Child"."$site";
    
    socketpair($Child, $Parent, AF_UNIX, SOCK_STREAM, 

                PF_UNSPEC) 
        or die "socketpair: $!";

    $Parent->autoflush(1);
    $Child->autoflush(1);

    $$pSoxR[$site] = \*$Parent;
    $$cSoxR[$site] = \*$Child;
}

Regards,

Rich Wood



--- John Cokos <jcokos@ccs.net> wrote:
> Working on a long running perl script, that I think
> would be better suited to using fork() than running
> on it's own.
> 
> Basically, the pseudocode for it is something like
> this:
> 
> 
> 
>
code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------my
> @to_do_list
> 
> push @to_do_list, $something;
> 
> foreach my $item ( @to_do_list ) {
> 
>     .. do some work.
>     if ( I find something else to do)  {
>        push @to_do_list, $this_new_thing;
>     }
> 
> }
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> So, you can see that it's an array that can be added
> to in mid-stream, and continually grows. Depending
> on the amount of things
> "found to do" in the inside loop, it can take hours
> and hours to run, as that array grows larger.
> 
> What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child
> processes, and have each of them doing the same
> loop, each aware of the master array's
> contents, and each able to push things onto it, so
> that the other children, when they're in the loop
> see the new todo items...
> 
> Can the children intercommunicate?
> 
> If not, can they at least return a value back to the
> parent?
> In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a
> task, get back the new todo items found, and die.
> Then, fork 10 new kids, etc
> ....
> 
> Thanks, John
> ========================================
>   John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
>   http://www.iwebsys.com
>   jcokos@ccs.net
> ========================================
> 
> 
> 
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=====
Richard O. Wood
Wildwood IT Consultants, Inc.
wildwood_players@yahoo.com
206.605.2539
http://resumes.dice.com/richardowood

__________________________________________________
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From jimfl at colltech.com  Wed Jan 17 11:12:21 2001
From: jimfl at colltech.com (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent? 
In-Reply-To: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>
Message-ID: <B68B1275.83E%jimfl@colltech.com>

on 1/17/01 7:43 AM, John Cokos at jcokos@ccs.net wrote:
 
> What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child processes, and have each of them
> doing the same loop, each aware of the master array's
> contents, and each able to push things onto it, so that the other children,
> when they're in the loop see the new todo items...
> 
> Can the children intercommunicate?
> 
> If not, can they at least return a value back to the parent?
> In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a task, get back the new
> todo items found, and die. Then, fork 10 new kids, etc

In general if, instead of using fork() to fork off children, you can use
code that looks similar to:

    $pid = open(CHILD, "-|") or die "Just because\n":
    if ($pid == 0) { # We're the child
        print "Hi Mom!\n";}
    else { # We're the parent
        print <CHILD>;
    }

The STDOUT of the child gets connected to the filehandle listed in the
open(), and the child can send results back to the parent. This is described
in `perldoc -tf open` and `man perlopentut `

If you want to try to manage 10 or so of these, then I'd look at using
IO::Pipe in combination with fork() instead of the native open(). A single
instance of doing this would look like:

    $pipe = new IO::Pipe;

    $pid = fork();
    if ($pid == 0) { #child
        $pipe->writer();
        print $pipe "Hi Mom!\n"; }
    else {
        $pipe->reader();
        print <$pipe>;
    }
    
--
Jim Flanagan          Collective Technologies
jimfl@colltech.com   http://www.colltech.com


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From starfire at zipcon.net  Wed Jan 17 11:19:06 2001
From: starfire at zipcon.net (Richard Anderson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent? 
References: <20010117162812.38480.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001401c080a9$9b360150$680ff93f@adcom133>

It might be simpler to use shared memory and a semaphore as opposed to
managing 10 sockets.

Richard.Anderson@unixscripts.com              RayCosoft, LLC
Perl/Java/Oracle/Unix software engineering    www.unixscripts.com
www.zipcon.net/~starfire/home                     Seattle, WA, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wood" <wildwood_players@yahoo.com>
To: "John Cokos" <jcokos@ccs.net>; <spug-list@pm.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?


> John,
>
> I do something very similar to this, and I still have
> a dilemma with it.  What I do is to find out how many
> processes I need to fork, then I set up bidirectional
> socket-pairs to use between the parent and children,
> then I fork the children.  The parent then goes into a
> loop of sending messages to every child followed by a
> loop of waiting for a response from every child prior
> to going on to the next message.  The parent is in an
> outer loop of looking for and processing scripts which
> may or may not have commands for every child process.
> If a child process is not supposed to receive a
> command, I just send it a DUMMY command which it echos
> back.
>
> The children are in a loop waiting for messages from
> the parent upon which they take action and report back
> to the parent.
>
> The part I haven't worked out is what to do if a child
> hangs.  Hopefully, other responses to your email will
> give me some ideas on that.
>
> This is related to your situation since you add
> processes along the way.  Well, maybe this will help
> and maybe not.
>
> ####################################################
> # estab_socket();
> ####################################################
>
> sub estab_socket {
>     my $site = shift;
>     my $pSoxR = shift;
>     my $cSoxR = shift;
>
>     my $Parent = "Parent"."$site";
>     my $Child = "Child"."$site";
>
>     socketpair($Child, $Parent, AF_UNIX, SOCK_STREAM,
>
>                 PF_UNSPEC)
>         or die "socketpair: $!";
>
>     $Parent->autoflush(1);
>     $Child->autoflush(1);
>
>     $$pSoxR[$site] = \*$Parent;
>     $$cSoxR[$site] = \*$Child;
> }
>
> Regards,
>
> Rich Wood
>
>
>
> --- John Cokos <jcokos@ccs.net> wrote:
> > Working on a long running perl script, that I think
> > would be better suited to using fork() than running
> > on it's own.
> >
> > Basically, the pseudocode for it is something like
> > this:
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
code:-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-------my
> > @to_do_list
> >
> > push @to_do_list, $something;
> >
> > foreach my $item ( @to_do_list ) {
> >
> >     .. do some work.
> >     if ( I find something else to do)  {
> >        push @to_do_list, $this_new_thing;
> >     }
> >
> > }
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> >
> >
> > So, you can see that it's an array that can be added
> > to in mid-stream, and continually grows. Depending
> > on the amount of things
> > "found to do" in the inside loop, it can take hours
> > and hours to run, as that array grows larger.
> >
> > What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child
> > processes, and have each of them doing the same
> > loop, each aware of the master array's
> > contents, and each able to push things onto it, so
> > that the other children, when they're in the loop
> > see the new todo items...
> >
> > Can the children intercommunicate?
> >
> > If not, can they at least return a value back to the
> > parent?
> > In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a
> > task, get back the new todo items found, and die.
> > Then, fork 10 new kids, etc
> > ....
> >
> > Thanks, John
> > ========================================
> >   John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
> >   http://www.iwebsys.com
> >   jcokos@ccs.net
> > ========================================
> >
> >
> >
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> > http://www.halcyon.com/spug/
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Richard O. Wood
> Wildwood IT Consultants, Inc.
> wildwood_players@yahoo.com
> 206.605.2539
> http://resumes.dice.com/richardowood
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
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From jay at Scherrer.com  Wed Jan 17 12:40:43 2001
From: jay at Scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: web page for spug meetings
Message-ID: <3A65E72B.DB0D87C0@scherrer.com>

Tim
Thanks for a great meeting last night.
During the meeting you had asked for volunteers to post scripts and
other spugly details on a web site. If the job hasn't been filled, I
would like to give it a shot.  If you could please send the gory details
to Jay@Scherrer.com

Thanks,
Jay


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From jcokos at ccs.net  Wed Jan 17 12:43:34 2001
From: jcokos at ccs.net (John Cokos)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Re: Forked Children talking back to the parent? 
References: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>
Message-ID: <010101c080b5$653b12a0$28e842cf@iwebx1>

I suppose I should further qualify something about this ....

The targeted users for this are webmasters.  We are a CGI
Shop, so about the only thing we know going in the door
is that it'll likely be a Unix machine, with Perl 5.  Generally
ISPs that host websites, and allow CGI's wont' allow pipes,
IO:: ... or Shared memory usage.  Even fork() is only available to
us in about 60% of the cases.

So this thing really has to be "dumbed down"

If there's not a built in way for a child to manipulate a
variable (array or hash) directly in the parent process, then
I'll have to find another way.

I could use DB_File and tie to a disk hash, and then all the
children and parents could access the same set of data, live,
but there'd be some record locking issues to deal with.

John

========================================
  John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
  http://www.iwebsys.com
  jcokos@ccs.net
========================================

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cokos" <jcokos@ccs.net>
To: <spug-list@pm.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 7:43 AM
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?


> Working on a long running perl script, that I think would be better suited to using fork() than running on it's own.
>
> Basically, the pseudocode for it is something like this:
>
>
>
> code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------my @to_do_list
>
> push @to_do_list, $something;
>
> foreach my $item ( @to_do_list ) {
>
>     .. do some work.
>     if ( I find something else to do)  {
>        push @to_do_list, $this_new_thing;
>     }
>
> }
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> So, you can see that it's an array that can be added to in mid-stream, and continually grows. Depending on the amount of things
> "found to do" in the inside loop, it can take hours and hours to run, as that array grows larger.
>
> What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child processes, and have each of them doing the same loop, each aware of the master
array's
> contents, and each able to push things onto it, so that the other children, when they're in the loop see the new todo items...
>
> Can the children intercommunicate?
>
> If not, can they at least return a value back to the parent?
> In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a task, get back the new todo items found, and die. Then, fork 10 new kids, etc
> ....
>
> Thanks, John
> ========================================
>   John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
>   http://www.iwebsys.com
>   jcokos@ccs.net
> ========================================
>
>
>
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>
>
>


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From jason at strangelight.com  Wed Jan 17 13:13:09 2001
From: jason at strangelight.com (Jason Lamport)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>
References: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>
Message-ID: <p04320402b68b865ab0cc@[10.0.0.2]>

First, you should consider carefully whether splitting the task into 
multiple processes will actually speed things up.  Remember, forking 
a bunch of processes will not magically make your computer hardware 
any faster.  If the bottleneck is from a single local resource, such 
as CPU time or hardware I/O to a single physical device, then using 
multiple processes is not likely to speed things up, and may even 
slow things down.  On the other hand, there are certainly many cases 
in which multiple processes can be much more efficient: e.g. if your 
processes are spending most of their time waiting for replies from 
internet servers, then 50 processes can wait for 50 replies in about 
the same amount of time that one process could wait for one reply.

If you decide that using multiple processes is the way to go:

As usual, TMTOWTDI -- I'm not even going to try to summarize or 
suggest which is best.  Peruse

perldoc perlipc

for lots of info.  The sections "Safe Pipe Opens" and "Bidirectional 
Communication with Yourself" look like they may be most relevant, but 
there's lots of good info throughout.

As for your design:  I don't think you want the children talking 
amongst themselves.  I would guess the best design is a client/server 
system, in which the parent process acts as a "task server", which 
delegates the to-do items to its children, and when the children find 
a new task, they simply report it back to the server.

#example pseudo-code -- this is just one possible design.
#note that you could use two completely different IPC methods
#for parent->child communication and for child->parent communication.

$number_of_children = 10;

for (1..$number_of_children) {
	last unless $pid = fork();
	push @child_pids, $pid;
}

if ( @child_pids ) {	#I'm the parent/server
	while ( @master_to_do_list ) {
		$next_task = shift( @master_to_do_list );
		delegate( $next_task );
			#send this task to one of
			#the children using whatever IPC
			#method seems best
		push @master_to_do_list, get_new_tasks_from_children();
	}
} else {	#I'm a child
	@my_to_do_list = get_tasks_from_parent();
	while ( @my_to_do_list ) {
		do_this( shift @my_to_do_list );
		if ( I find something else to do ) {
			tell_parent_about( $this_new_thing );
				#send this task to the parent
				#using whatever IPC
				#method seems best
		}
		push @my_to_do_list, get_new_tasks_from_parent();
	}
}

__END__

Whatever your design, take care to consider whether two children 
might attempt the same task at the same time, or discover the same 
new task at the same time, and what happens if/when they do.

-jason



At 7:43 AM -0800 1/17/01, John Cokos wrote:
>Working on a long running perl script, that I think would be better 
>suited to using fork() than running on it's own.
>
>Basically, the pseudocode for it is something like this:
>
>
>
>code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------my 
>@to_do_list
>
>push @to_do_list, $something;
>
>foreach my $item ( @to_do_list ) {
>
>     .. do some work.
>     if ( I find something else to do)  {
>        push @to_do_list, $this_new_thing;
>     }
>
>}
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>So, you can see that it's an array that can be added to in 
>mid-stream, and continually grows. Depending on the amount of things
>"found to do" in the inside loop, it can take hours and hours to 
>run, as that array grows larger.
>
>What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child processes, and have 
>each of them doing the same loop, each aware of the master array's
>contents, and each able to push things onto it, so that the other 
>children, when they're in the loop see the new todo items...
>
>Can the children intercommunicate?
>
>If not, can they at least return a value back to the parent?
>In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a task, get back 
>the new todo items found, and die. Then, fork 10 new kids, etc
>....
>
>Thanks, John
>========================================
>   John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
>   http://www.iwebsys.com
>   jcokos@ccs.net
>========================================
>
>
>
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From johnl at meer.net  Wed Jan 17 13:20:39 2001
From: johnl at meer.net (John Labovitz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
In-Reply-To: <p04320402b68b865ab0cc@[10.0.0.2]>; from jason@strangelight.com on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 11:13:09AM -0800
References: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1> <p04320402b68b865ab0cc@[10.0.0.2]>
Message-ID: <20010117112039.A7744@c654965-a.sttln1.wa.home.com>

To handle the case of a child "hanging," you might consider using
IO::Select (a front-end to the select(2) system call) to manage the
connections.

With IO::Select, you can "watch" several file-handles at once, and
then read only from ones that are ready.  You can also specify a
timeout value, so if none are ready to read, you can figure out which
haven't responded for a while and kill() them (or whatever).

There's an example program in the manpage for IO::Select (which comes with
standard perl, btw).

john

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From slagel at geospiza.com  Wed Jan 17 13:26:45 2001
From: slagel at geospiza.com (Joe Slagel)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Wow...the latest Perl Journal
Message-ID: <3A65F1F5.D5380BC2@geospiza.com>

Just got my latest edition of the Perl Journal....now that
was a surprise.


--
Joe Slagel
Geospiza, Inc.
3939 Leary Way NW, Seattle WA 98107
(206) 633-4403
slagel@geospiza.com




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From dancerboy at strangelight.com  Wed Jan 17 13:39:56 2001
From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
In-Reply-To: <20010117162812.38480.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20010117162812.38480.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04320404b68ba4add385@[10.0.0.2]>

At 8:28 AM -0800 1/17/01, Richard Wood wrote:
>John,
>
>I do something very similar to this, and I still have
>a dilemma with it.  What I do is to find out how many
>processes I need to fork, then I set up bidirectional
>socket-pairs to use between the parent and children,
>then I fork the children.  The parent then goes into a
>loop of sending messages to every child followed by a
>loop of waiting for a response from every child prior
>to going on to the next message.  The parent is in an
>outer loop of looking for and processing scripts which
>may or may not have commands for every child process.
>If a child process is not supposed to receive a
>command, I just send it a DUMMY command which it echos
>back.
>
>The children are in a loop waiting for messages from
>the parent upon which they take action and report back
>to the parent.
>
>The part I haven't worked out is what to do if a child
>hangs.  Hopefully, other responses to your email will
>give me some ideas on that.

One thought:  instead of sitting in a loop waiting for messages from 
the children, what if the children send a signal ( via kill() ) to 
let the parent know that the child has data for it?

I assume you're aware of the use of $SIG{__ALARM__} to time-out 
operations that would otherwise block?

-jason

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From dean at whack.org  Wed Jan 17 19:44:32 2001
From: dean at whack.org (Dean Hudson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>; from jcokos@ccs.net on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:43:42AM -0800
References: <003e01c0809c$44b2dcc0$28e842cf@iwebx1>
Message-ID: <20010117174432.A17396@whack.org>

Why not pick some number of jobs (n) and when @todo grows to n
element, fork off a child process which then starts doing work, then
have the parent pop those items off @todo. The long running process is
then basically just a daemon that queues jobs and forks
workers. Workers die when they finish their todo list.

Prolly easier than worrying about shared memory or sockets. It also
scales the number of children to the amount of work.

Just a thought.

dean.

> Working on a long running perl script, that I think would be better suited to using fork() than running on it's own.
> 
> Basically, the pseudocode for it is something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------my @to_do_list
> 
> push @to_do_list, $something;
> 
> foreach my $item ( @to_do_list ) {
> 
>     .. do some work.
>     if ( I find something else to do)  {
>        push @to_do_list, $this_new_thing;
>     }
> 
> }
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> So, you can see that it's an array that can be added to in mid-stream, and continually grows. Depending on the amount of things
> "found to do" in the inside loop, it can take hours and hours to run, as that array grows larger.
> 
> What I'm wanting to do, is fork off 10 child processes, and have each of them doing the same loop, each aware of the master array's
> contents, and each able to push things onto it, so that the other children, when they're in the loop see the new todo items...
> 
> Can the children intercommunicate?
> 
> If not, can they at least return a value back to the parent?
> In this case, we could have it fork 10, give them a task, get back the new todo items found, and die. Then, fork 10 new kids, etc
> ....
> 
> Thanks, John
> ========================================
>   John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
>   http://www.iwebsys.com
>   jcokos@ccs.net
> ========================================
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 

dean.

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From wildwood_players at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 18 10:21:12 2001
From: wildwood_players at yahoo.com (Richard Wood)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
Message-ID: <20010118162112.12392.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com>

First off I want to apologize if I am  confusing John
Cokos issue by introducing my own problem, but it
seemed very closely related.

With that said,

Richard Anderson wrote:

> It might be simpler to use shared memory and a 
> semaphore as opposed to managing 10 sockets.

Hmmm, I am trying to figure out what you have in mind
here.  
If I am on the right track, you are talking about
having the parent be event driven based on signals
from the children.  My immediate concern there is that
I have some synchronization issues which might cause
problems in an event driven model.  The parent must
wait for all children to complete a round of events
before going on to the next event.  I suppose I could
keep track of that in some structure and interrogate
the structure while I wait for signals.


Jason Lamport wrote:

> First, you should consider carefully whether 
> splitting the task into multiple processes will 
> actually speed things up.

Im my case it definitely speeds up processing.  Each
child is telneted into separate terminal servers all
over the country.  In many cases, the scripts that the
parent are processing will have commands to issue on
every terminal server.  By forking the children and
then sending them the commands to process in parallel,
a significant improvement is achieved since most of
the processing occurs on the terminal servers.


John Labovitz wrote:

> To handle the case of a child "hanging," you might 
> consider using IO::Select (a front-end to the 
> select(2) system call) to manage the connections.

Seems like a good idea, I originally looked at this
but I couldn't quite figure out the whole watching
multiple things at once deal.  I will take another
look at this.

jason wrote:
 
> One thought:  instead of sitting in a loop waiting 
> for messages from the children, what if the children

> send a signal ( via kill() ) to let the parent know 
> that the child has data for it?

This sounds similar to what Richard Anderson wrote but
still presumes I am using the bidirectional sockets in
stead of shared memory for communication.  I am giving
this some thought.

Dean Hudson wrote:

> Why not pick some number of jobs (n) and when @todo 
> grows to n element, fork off a child process which 
> then starts doing work, then have the parent pop 
> those items off @todo. The long running process is
> then basically just a daemon that queues jobs and 
> forks workers. Workers die when they finish their 
> todo list.

This solution might work for John Cokos, but in my
circumstance, I need to maintain my connection from
the children to the terminal servers.  When there is
no script running, the children are to report back to
the parent periodically showing that the connection is
up and that no other processes are running that would
preclude a user from running a script.


I want to thank everyone who has responded.  I
definitely got some different ideas on how to approach
this problem.  I am about to redesign the process so
the information is quite timely.  I am definitely
interested in the interrupt driven approach.  

My question on the interrupt driven approach is, what
happens if I am processing a signal from one child in
the parent and I receive a signal from another child? 
Does it interrupt the code already processing the
first signal?  I haven't done much signal processing.

Regards,

Rich Wood


=====
Richard O. Wood
Wildwood IT Consultants, Inc.
wildwood_players@yahoo.com
206.605.2539
http://resumes.dice.com/richardowood

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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From johnl at meer.net  Thu Jan 18 11:39:20 2001
From: johnl at meer.net (John Labovitz)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
In-Reply-To: <20010118162112.12392.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com>; from wildwood_players@yahoo.com on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 08:21:12AM -0800
References: <20010118162112.12392.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010118093920.A10705@c654965-a.sttln1.wa.home.com>

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 08:21:12AM -0800, Richard Wood wrote:
> My question on the interrupt driven approach is, what
> happens if I am processing a signal from one child in
> the parent and I receive a signal from another child? 
> Does it interrupt the code already processing the
> first signal?  I haven't done much signal processing.

>From the "perlipc" manpage:

    Do as little as you possibly can in your handler; notice how all
    we do is set a global variable and then raise an exception.
    That's because on most systems, libraries are not re-entrant;
    particularly, memory allocation and I/O routines are not.  That
    means that doing nearly anything in your handler could in theory
    trigger a memory fault and subsequent core dump.

In your signal handler, you could simply "push" some sort of
identifier onto a list; then, when you are back in your main loop,
process the list one element at a time.

john

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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Thu Jan 18 05:01:33 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Wow...the latest Perl Journal
In-Reply-To: <3A65F1F5.D5380BC2@geospiza.com>; from Joe Slagel on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 11:26:45AM -0800
References: <3A65F1F5.D5380BC2@geospiza.com>
Message-ID: <20010118110133.A6659@timji.consultix.wa.com>

On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 11:26:45AM -0800, Joe Slagel wrote:
> Just got my latest edition of the Perl Journal....now that
> was a surprise.

Did they really send you a NEW issue?  They sent me the last
("Finance") issue again, which I took as an attempt to fool me
into thinking they were still publishing, on the hope I was too
dumb too spot a re-run!

-Tim
*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

> 
> 
> --
> Joe Slagel
> Geospiza, Inc.
> 3939 Leary Way NW, Seattle WA 98107
> (206) 633-4403
> slagel@geospiza.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 

-- 
*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

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From ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com  Thu Jan 18 14:55:34 2001
From: ced at carios2.ca.boeing.com (ced@carios2.ca.boeing.com)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
Message-ID: <200101182055.MAA00015@carios2.ca.boeing.com>

> My question on the interrupt driven approach is, what
> happens if I am processing a signal from one child in
> the parent and I receive a signal from another child? 
> Does it interrupt the code already processing the
> first signal?  I haven't done much signal processing.

Modern reliable signal implementations will block 
subsequent occurences of a given signal while the 
first occurrence is being processed. I believe 
that's what occurs unless you do something
to change the default mask. 

The unfortunate part though is the ones that
arrive later aren't queued. So, if say, a 
SIGCHLD signal arrives five times while the 
handler's processing the first SIGCHLD , only
one of the five will be processed. 

That's why as was mentioned earlier, signal
handlers should do as little as possible. 
The handler that's complex is liable to
lose some recently arrived signals.   

You might want to take at Chapter 16 in the "Perl
Cookbook" or even "Advanced Programming in the Unix
Environment" by Stevens for more info.

Rgds,
--
Charles DeRykus


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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jan 19 12:22:26 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Perl Programmer, for Neptune in Kirkland
Message-ID: <20010119182226.B9365@timji.consultix.wa.com>

Tim,

I am overworked here at Neptune. 
Would you please ok/post this on the spug mailing list ?

Thanks,
Phil Neal


Perl Programmer Wanted

Neptune Inc.
206 Kirkland Ave.
Kirkland, Wa. 98033
phillip@neptune.com

Required skill-set:

	Any 3 of Perl,MySQL,CGI,Javascript,Linux,Sys Admin,XML 

Contract or permanent position:

	Permanent.  Pre-IPO Stock options, free water, sensitive 
			artistic types, cool office space.

Placement:		

	Direct with company. W2

 
Physical location:  

	206 Kirkland Ave
	Kirkland, WA. 98033

Telecommuting possible? 

	No


Company's product or service:

	Broadband portal development with Flash,Director, voip,
	Mysql/linux backend.

Visit: http://www.neptune.com

for a taste of what we do.

Thanks,

Phil

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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Fri Jan 19 17:37:41 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Net Admin, Perl Prog., Kirkland
Message-ID: <20010119233741.A9823@timji.consultix.wa.com>

Please post this job opening to the SPUG List.  

Thanks,
Tania Bennett
Human Resource Director
Neptune, Inc.

-------------------

We are in need immediate need of a Network Administrator/perl programmer.

Required Skills:
Understanding of Linux running Apache, mail protocols, DNS and PERL
required.  Experience with SQL desirable. At least 2 years experience
building and maintaining commercial web sites.  Work with a team of
dedicated, experienced developers.

This is a W-2, full time employee status, permanent position with an
aggressive stock option plan (vests over 3 years).  Placement directly with
company, no recruiters please. 

What is Neptune? 
Neptune, Inc. develops creation, content, and communication applications
exclusively for broadband ISPs.  Using a proprietary technology platform,
Neptune presents database driven content through a next-generation,
broadband interface.  As a Neptune employee, you will work with other senior
developers to build cutting-edge products that will revolutionize the
industry over the next 3 years. 

Company Info and Location: 
Neptune, Inc. is a Washington corporation.  Permanent, W-2 (non-contract)
employees preferred.  We are located at 206 Kirkland Avenue, downtown
Kirkland.  Centrally located on the East side, 20 minutes from downtown
Seattle. 

Benefits: 
Fully paid for health care benefits.  Aggressive stock option plan.  Free
video games at the arcade across the street from the office.  We are located
steps away from tons of great restaurants, parks and the Lake Washington
waterfront.  We have a great group of people so far and are looking for more
great ones to join our team!

Please email resumes to jobs@neptune.com. 

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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Mon Jan 22 07:11:36 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Perl/DBI Class: Pre-reqs Relaxed
Message-ID: <20010122131136.A6915@timji.consultix.wa.com>

To: Perl Programmers Frustrated by Database Programming

As you may have heard, we're offering a public "beta test" of
a new hands-on "Database Programming with Perl" class from
Feb 7-9 in Kirkland WA ( see
	http://www.consultix-inc.com/dbi.html )

We need some more students, who need to be interested in
learning to use Perl's DBI module, capable of constructive
criticism, and willing to help us work out the bugs in the
course.  In consideration of the inevitable bumpiness of
the ride in this first offering, we're charging about half
what the course will ultimately cost (pricing details at
	http://www.consultix-inc.com/cgibin/register.cgi ).

PREREQUISITES RELAXED
What you may NOT have heard is that in response to customer
requests, we've recently relaxed the prerequisites for this
course, so that anybody who knows basic Perl and has some
experience with references will be sufficiently prepared
(additional necessary skills will be imparted during the class
itself).

More details follow, and full details are at our web site. 
Those wishing to participate please get in touch with me ASAP.

-Tim
*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

  ** Database Programming with Perl; Need "Beta Testers"

The "Perl DBI approach" to database programming allows one to
write generic database-access programs that can interface with
any of the popular database management systems (Oracle, Sybase,
MySQL, etc.).  We'll have a new course on this subject in its
initial form by early February.  It's being written and presented
by local expert Colin Meyer, who has years of production-level
Perl DBI experience with well-known high-tech companies.  (see
http://www.consultix-inc.com/dbi.html ).

Students will need to have basic Perl skills, and be comfortable
using references.

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                   CONSULTIX ON-LINE RESOURCES

General Consultix information:
        http://www.consultix-inc.com/

On-Site training information:
        http://www.consultix-inc.com/on-site.html

Course Listings:
        UNIX/Shell, http://www.consultix-inc.com/unixlist.html
        AWK/Perl,   http://www.consultix-inc.com/perllist.html

Instructor Evaluations:   http://www.consultix-inc.com/evals.html
Registration and Pricing: http://www.consultix-inc.com/reg.html

*========================================================================*
| Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix       (206) 781-UNIX/8649;  ask for FAX# | 
| Email: tim@consultix-inc.com        Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com  |
| TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl  DAMIAN CONWAY: Adv. Perl   COLIN MEYER: Perl/DBI |
|Feb 7 Perl/DBI; 12 Int Perl; 15 OO-Perl; 20 Data Munging; 22 Adv OO-Perl|
*========================================================================*

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From asim_jalis at hp.com  Mon Jan 22 19:16:36 2001
From: asim_jalis at hp.com (JALIS,ASIM (HP-FtCollins,ex1))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: January E-SPUG Meeting
Message-ID: <C5C45572D968D411A1B500D0B74FF4A80181A94B@xfc01.fc.hp.com>

Hope you had a good break. 

Here are the details of the next E-SPUG meeting this Wednesday.
This month Sandy Morton will talk about using Perl to write IRC 
bots that are web-aware. He will talk about the Net::IRC module 
and how he has used it to create some nifty Perl applications.

The building doors are locked shortly after 7pm so be there a 
little early.

Here are the details:

TOPIC
    "IRC Bots in Perl Using Net::IRC" by Sandy Morton

DATE AND TIME
    Wednesday, January 24, 2001 (fourth Wednesday of the month).
    7.00 pm - 9.00 pm 

LOCATION
    Conference Room
    Avaya, Inc (previously Lucent)
    6464 185th Ave NE
    Redmond, WA  98052-6736
  
DIRECTIONS
    * Take 520-East to Redmond.
    * Get off the freeway at exit #14 (Redmond Way/Route 202).
    * Keep right on ramp.
    * Turn right onto Redmond Way at light.
    * Turn left onto 185th Ave NE.
    * Drive up a couple of blocks. Look for the Lucent Building
      on your right.

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From asim_jalis at hp.com  Mon Jan 22 19:36:00 2001
From: asim_jalis at hp.com (JALIS,ASIM (HP-FtCollins,ex1))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: E-SPUG Announcements Mailing-List
Message-ID: <C5C45572D968D411A1B500D0B74FF4A80181A94D@xfc01.fc.hp.com>

I have set up an egroups mailing-list for E-SPUG announcements.
If you are interested in receiving E-SPUG announcements only 
(without being a part of the discussions on the main SPUG list) 
you can subscribe to the E-SPUG list by sending a blank e-mail 
to eastside-spug-subscribe@egroups.com.

The main SPUG list should be used for Perl questions and issues 
of general concern that are not specific to E-SPUG.

Asim

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From asim_jalis at hp.com  Tue Jan 23 11:18:06 2001
From: asim_jalis at hp.com (JALIS,ASIM (HP-FtCollins,ex1))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Larry Wall Interview
Message-ID: <C5C45572D968D411A1B500D0B74FF4A80181A953@xfc01.fc.hp.com>

Linux Weekly News has an interview with Larry
at http://lwn.net/2001/features/LarryWall/
(I saw the link on slashdot).

Asim

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From asim_jalis at hp.com  Tue Jan 23 11:47:45 2001
From: asim_jalis at hp.com (JALIS,ASIM (HP-FtCollins,ex1))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: E-SPUG Meeting Addendum
Message-ID: <C5C45572D968D411A1B500D0B74FF4A80181A955@xfc01.fc.hp.com>

Addendum to the last E-SPUG announcement. After Sandy's talk on 
Net::IRC tomorrow Ben Reser will tell us about POE::Component::IRC 
and how it compares with Net::IRC, in the spirit of TMTOWTDI. 

For details about the meeting time, location, directions, refer to 
an earlier message with "E-SPUG" and "Meeting" in the subject.

Thanks Sandy and Ben. This should be interesting.

If anyone is interested in presenting something at a future meeting,
or if you have ideas for interesting meeting topics, send me e-mail.

Asim

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From asim_jalis at hp.com  Thu Jan 25 10:41:51 2001
From: asim_jalis at hp.com (JALIS,ASIM (HP-FtCollins,ex1))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Links From Yesterday's E-SPUG Meeting
Message-ID: <C5C45572D968D411A1B500D0B74FF4A80181A95E@xfc01.fc.hp.com>

Here are the links to the talks and code from last
night's talks by Sandy Morton and Ben Reser:

Sandy Morton's talk: http://www.speakeasy.org/~cgires/modules
Ben Reser's talk: http://ben.reser.org/P::C::I/

Thanks again to both for excellent presentations.

At the next Eastside-SPUG meeting on February 21 (Wed) 
Damian Conway will hold an open Q&A session. This should
be really good. I'll post announcements and reminders 
when we get closer to the date.

Asim

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From asim_jalis at hp.com  Thu Jan 25 19:55:39 2001
From: asim_jalis at hp.com (JALIS,ASIM (HP-FtCollins,ex1))
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Damian Conway Eastside
Message-ID: <C5C45572D968D411A1B500D0B74FF4A80181A963@xfc01.fc.hp.com>

As I mentioned earlier Damian Conway's going to hold an open
Q&A session at the next Eastside-SPUG meeting on February 21 
(Wed). 

Please prepare some juicy questions in advance and submit 
them to me as soon as you can, so I can pass them on to Damian 
and he can start thinking about them in advance.

Asim

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From damian at cs.monash.edu.au  Thu Jan 25 20:53:12 2001
From: damian at cs.monash.edu.au (Damian Conway)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Damian Conway Eastside
Message-ID: <200101260253.NAA21775@indy05.csse.monash.edu.au>


   > As I mentioned earlier Damian Conway's going to hold an open
   > Q&A session at the next Eastside-SPUG meeting on February 21
   >
   > Please prepare some juicy questions in advance and submit
   > them to me as soon as you can, so I can pass them on to Damian
   > and he can start thinking about them in advance.

Good idea. :-)

Please also bear in mind that I am a "fundamentals" kind of guy. There
are great swathes of application stuff -- like DBI and CGI -- that I
(desire to) know next to nothing about.

I will, of course, happily field any questions on Perl itself, on my own
modules, on OO, on parsing, on the Perl 6 initiative, on YAS, on my Perl
serfdom, on writing and speaking (especially if people are interested in
submitting something to YAPC), as well as trading gossip about various
well-known Perl personages ;-)

Damian

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From lorraine.johnson at elektrobit.com  Tue Jan 30 15:39:31 2001
From: lorraine.johnson at elektrobit.com (Lorraine Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Web host recommendation
Message-ID: <1CE5392373C4D311BB220008C733F5941E2DBC@EBINCRD01>

Hello,

I need to put up a CGI outside our firewall, and am looking for a Web
hosting firm that supports user Perl CGI scripts (I've found a bunch).  Web
Space Outlet (www.wso.net) looks pretty good on the surface, but I'd
appreciate it if anyone has a recommendation.

Thanks

Lorraine

Lorraine Johnson
Senior Software Engineer
Elektrobit Inc.
lorraine.johnson@elektrobit.com
v: (425) 445-1898
f: (425) 376-0235


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From pann at ourmanpann.com  Tue Jan 30 16:38:07 2001
From: pann at ourmanpann.com (Pann McCuaig)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Web host recommendation
In-Reply-To: <1CE5392373C4D311BB220008C733F5941E2DBC@EBINCRD01>; from lorraine.johnson@elektrobit.com on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:39:31PM -0800
References: <1CE5392373C4D311BB220008C733F5941E2DBC@EBINCRD01>
Message-ID: <20010130143807.A22269@ourmanpann.com>

I have two accounts with Hurricane Electric

http://www.he.net/info/
http://www.he.net/faq/

one personal, one commercial. Very satisfied.

On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:39, Lorraine Johnson wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I need to put up a CGI outside our firewall, and am looking for a Web
> hosting firm that supports user Perl CGI scripts (I've found a bunch).  Web
> Space Outlet (www.wso.net) looks pretty good on the surface, but I'd
> appreciate it if anyone has a recommendation.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Lorraine
> 
> Lorraine Johnson
> Senior Software Engineer
> Elektrobit Inc.
> lorraine.johnson@elektrobit.com
> v: (425) 445-1898
> f: (425) 376-0235

Luck,
Pann
-- 
geek by nature, Linux by choice                     L I N U X       .~.
                                                    The Choice      /V\
http://www.ourmanpann.com/linux/                     of a GNU      /( )\
                                                    Generation     ^^-^^

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From jcokos at ccs.net  Tue Jan 30 17:08:44 2001
From: jcokos at ccs.net (John Cokos)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:51 2004
Subject: SPUG: Web host recommendation
References: <1CE5392373C4D311BB220008C733F5941E2DBC@EBINCRD01> <20010130143807.A22269@ourmanpann.com>
Message-ID: <013701c08b11$9826fa10$28e842cf@iwebx1>

As a commercial CGI Script company, I would
need to add a hearty "No Way" to he.net
They have been nothing but trouble to the customers
of ours that are stuck with them.  Aside from 
reports of terrible tech support (unhelpful, rude,
and not very knowledgeable), our customers report
a hard-sell sales force, weekly "upgrade now" emails,
and unbreakable contracts.    If they've changed their
ways, you can ignore this, but they've been on our
NO NO list for a long time.

I prefer dreamhost.com, and webhosting.com for
virtual servers, and rackspace.com for dedicated
servers.

John

========================================
  John Cokos, President / CEO: iWeb Inc.
  http://www.iwebsys.com
  jcokos@ccs.net
========================================

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pann McCuaig" <pann@ourmanpann.com>
To: "Lorraine Johnson" <lorraine.johnson@elektrobit.com>
Cc: <spug-list@pm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: SPUG: Web host recommendation


> I have two accounts with Hurricane Electric
> 
> http://www.he.net/info/
> http://www.he.net/faq/
> 
> one personal, one commercial. Very satisfied.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:39, Lorraine Johnson wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I need to put up a CGI outside our firewall, and am looking for a Web
> > hosting firm that supports user Perl CGI scripts (I've found a bunch).  Web
> > Space Outlet (www.wso.net) looks pretty good on the surface, but I'd
> > appreciate it if anyone has a recommendation.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Lorraine
> > 
> > Lorraine Johnson
> > Senior Software Engineer
> > Elektrobit Inc.
> > lorraine.johnson@elektrobit.com
> > v: (425) 445-1898
> > f: (425) 376-0235
> 
> Luck,
> Pann
> -- 
> geek by nature, Linux by choice                     L I N U X       .~.
>                                                     The Choice      /V\
> http://www.ourmanpann.com/linux/                     of a GNU      /( )\
>                                                     Generation     ^^-^^
> 
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>  For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ;  for weekly, spug-list-digest
>   Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/
> 
> 
> 


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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Tue Jan 30 18:10:03 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:52 2004
Subject: SPUG: JobS in Kirkland
Message-ID: <20010130161003.A4558@timji.consultix.wa.com>

Job Description:

Required Skill Set - Perl,mySQL and Linux

Full-time opportunity in Kirkland, WA - Stock options, Full Benefits, 401(K)

Placement through MindSeekers - recruiting firm

W2 candidates only

The position is located in Kirkland - flexible work hours - no telecommuting

B2B - ecommerce company

If you are into PERL, LINUX and general database driven web development you
should check out this position. Our dynamically generated website needs
really cool programmers to continue to solve impossible problems. You must
be familiar with JavaScript and of course HTML. The main qualification here
is the love for linux, mySQL and Perl.

We are very fast paced and most people here are multi-tasking individuals.
We need quality utility players that can fill multiple roles.

Some of the projects that we deal with include, improvements to the shopping
cart, general sys admin, logistics programming, fulfillment programming, XML
transfers from our supplier chain and much more!

We have several positions available of this job type.

Please contact:
Chris Bailey
MindSeekers
chrisb@mindseekers.com
206.448.7766

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From lou at visca.com  Wed Jan 31 12:35:35 2001
From: lou at visca.com (Lou Hevly)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:52 2004
Subject: SPUG: Web host recommendation
In-Reply-To: <1CE5392373C4D311BB220008C733F5941E2DBC@EBINCRD01>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010131193535.008276f0@visca.com>

At 13:39 30/01/01 -0800, Lorraine Johnson wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I need to put up a CGI outside our firewall, and am looking for a Web
>hosting firm that supports user Perl CGI scripts (I've found a bunch).  Web
>Space Outlet (www.wso.net) looks pretty good on the surface, but I'd
>appreciate it if anyone has a recommendation.

I've had the visca.com domain hosted on olm.net for nearly 5 years and have been happy. 150 Mb space, 3 Gb/month traffic, telnet, SSL, true IP for $13.95/month

The main problem is they're still running perl 5_004. But with 150 Mb, you could install your own Perl.

For dedicated servers, I've found one that I've only been with for 6 months but they seem reliable. insidecrew.net charges only $150/month for a 10 GB hard drive and 25 Gb/month traffic. 

HTH.

-- 
All the best (Ad?u-siau),
Lou Hevly
lou@visca.com
http://www.visca.com

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From cmeyer at helvella.org  Wed Jan 31 14:53:03 2001
From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:52 2004
Subject: SPUG: Forked Children talking back to the parent?
In-Reply-To: <001401c080a9$9b360150$680ff93f@adcom133>
References: <20010117162812.38480.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> <001401c080a9$9b360150$680ff93f@adcom133>
Message-ID: <20010131125303.F24156@hobart.helvella.org>

On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 09:19:06AM -0800, Richard Anderson wrote:
> It might be simpler to use shared memory and a semaphore as opposed to
> managing 10 sockets.

I have never attempted to use shared memory from Perl, and decided to
give it a go. I started with the IPC::Shareable module, as per Cookbook
recipe 16.2. I realize that hosting considerations ruled out the use of
shared mem for the original poster, but I did this anyway for fun.

I learned a few things.

1. Don't try to share deeply nested data structures. There is a note in
   the IPC::Shareable manpage about this. The module creates a new
   shared memory segment for each nested reference. Something with lots
   of references will quickly use up all available shm segments.

2. You need to be aware of the size of data you are sharing. This could
   be considered a poetic constraint, but it really ran against my perl
   programmers' fur. One of my favorite things about perl is being able
   to use memory willy nilly, with no concerns of malloc, free, or
   buffer overruns.

3. You need to use exclusive locking. This may be a limitation of
   IPC::Shareable, or my lack of understanding of unix shared mem.

4. It is unstable. At least in my experience. My program (pasted below)
   is fairly simple. It greps out 5 letter words from the dictionary,
   turns them into internet domains, and forks off children to look them
   up via gethostbyname(). This program runs for about twenty minutes
   and then segfaults. I have tried this on linux 2.2.14, perl 5.00503,
   perl 5.6.1-trial, perl 5.7.0. Same results always.

I'm not sure why it segfaults. At first I wasn't locking the shared
variable often enough, and it would segfault much earlier.

It could also be the signal handlers causing the segfault instead of
IPC::Shareable, as signal handling has always been slightly unstable
with perl. However, I think that the chance of that is small, as I used
tiny signal routines copied pretty much verbatim from the cookbook.

It would probably be a much better idea to fork $MAXCHILDREN and let
each on look up names repeatedly until all of the work is done, rather
than fork a new child for each and every name. I'll code up a version
like that when I have a few more moments.

Any ideas of how to make this work better would be appreciated.
-C.


=========================8<===================================

#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

use strict;
use Socket;               # for inet_ntoa
use IPC::Shareable;
use POSIX;
use Data::Dumper;

# this program mostly consists of code from recipes 16.12, 17.11 and 
# 17.12 of the Perl Cookbook.

my $MAXCHILDREN = 5;
my $CHILDREN    = 0;
my %CHILDREN    = ();

my $dict = '/usr/dict/words';

# global vars
my (@domains, %domains, %results);
my @data_share = ();


# signal handlers

# this code comes from recipe 17.11.  I originally tried the snippet
# from 17.12, but that caused zombie children that caused the end
# of the parent to hang forever.
sub REAPER {
  while (my $pid = waitpid(-1, WNOHANG)) {
    last if $pid == -1;
    delete $CHILDREN{$pid};
    $CHILDREN--;
  }
  $SIG{CHLD} = \&REAPER; 
}
$SIG{CHLD} = \&REAPER;

# this handler is meant to be run only by the parent process
sub HUNTER {
  local($SIG{CHLD}) = 'IGNORE';
  kill 'INT', keys %CHILDREN;

  # clean up my shared mem when exitting unexpectedly!
  IPC::Shareable::clean_up(); 
  exit;
}
$SIG{INT} = \&HUNTER;


# get 5 letter words from dictionary
open DICT, "<$dict" or die;
my @dict = grep length == 5, map {chomp;lc} <DICT>;
close DICT;


# @data_share is the shared data repository.  
# Do not store complex datastructures
# in shared memory, because IPC::Shareable creates a new shared segment for
# each nested hashref or arrayref - can easily use up all available shared
# segments.
my $handle = tie @data_share, 'IPC::Shareable', 
                 '5_letter_domain', {create => 1};
# work around for a minor IPC::Shareable bug that doesn't let you 
# check the size of an unused array.
push @data_share, 'dummy';
pop @data_share;


# @domains holds all of the work to be done.  If children could add work
# then @domains could be made shared ala @data_share.  But then it would
# have to be managed for size, so that the shared mem segment won't be
# overrun.
for my $word (@dict) {
  for (qw/_.com www._.com _.org www._.org _.net www._.net/) {
    my $domain = $_;
    $domain =~ s/_/$word/;
    $domains{$word}{$domain} = 1;
  }
}


# start the processing
for my $word (keys %domains) {  
  for my $domain (keys %{$domains{$word}}) {
    status();
  
    while ($CHILDREN >= $MAXCHILDREN) {
      sleep 2;
      harvest();
      status();
    }
  
    # postpone any SIGINT handling until after the fork.
    # this is so that the child can reset its SIGINT handler 
    # before any impending SIGINTs get processed.  Otherwise
    # segfaults will result.
    my $sigset = POSIX::SigSet->new(SIGINT);
    sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, $sigset) 
      or die "Couldn't block SIGINT for fork: $!\n";
  
    my $pid; 
    defined ($pid = fork) or die "Couldn't fork: $!";
    
    if ($pid) {                    # parent
      # unblock SIGINT:
      sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, $sigset)
        or die "Couldn't unblock SIGINT after fork(parent): $!\n";
  
      print STDERR "Just forked child $pid. \n";
      $CHILDREN{$pid} = { word => $word, domain => $domain };
      $CHILDREN++;
    }
  
    else {                         # child
      $SIG{INT} = 'DEFAULT'; # we don't want to kill children 
                             # if we are a child!
      # unblock SIGINT
      sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, $sigset)
        or die "Couldn't unblock SIGINT after fork(child): $!\n";
  
      print STDERR "I am child $$, working with $domain.\n";
      my $addr = lookup ($domain);

      $handle->shlock;
      push @data_share, [$word, $domain, $addr];
      $handle->shunlock;
  
      exit; # you must never forget the exit, oh best beloved!
    }
  }
}

print STDERR "Parent done doleing out data to kids.\n";
status(), sleep 2 while $CHILDREN;
harvest(); # harvest the remaining results

# clean up shared mem stuff
$handle->remove();
IPC::Shareable::clean_up();

print Data::Dumper::Dumper(\%results);


###############
# support subs

sub status {
  print STDERR "children: $CHILDREN\t\tdata_share: ", 
    scalar @data_share, "\n";
}

# of course it is possible to register a domain without actually 
# assigning ip addresses to any hostnames, but I don't really 
# care about that
sub lookup {
  my $name = shift;
  # I am letting the os time out gethostbyname, rather than harranging 
  # with an alarm and a SIGALRM handler
  my $addr = gethostbyname $name;
  return defined $addr ? inet_ntoa $addr : 'n/a';
}

# harvest any results available on the data_share 
# and store them in global %domains
sub harvest {
  return unless scalar @data_share;
  $handle->shlock;
  $results{$_->[0]}{$_->[1]}=$_->[2] while ($_ = pop @data_share);
  $handle->shunlock;
}

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From tim at consultix-inc.com  Wed Jan 31 16:42:35 2001
From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX)
Date: Wed Aug  4 00:07:52 2004
Subject: SPUG: Net. Prog. with Perl book now out
Message-ID: <20010131144235.A9128@timji.consultix.wa.com>

Lincoln Stein, the author of the CGI module, has a new book out.

Amazon.com says:

To learn more about "Network Programming with Perl," please visit the 
following page at Amazon.com: 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201615711/ref=mk_pb_ddm

Sincerely,

Teri Kieffer and E. Brooke Gilbert
Editors, Computers & Internet Books
Amazon.com

==========================================================
|  Tim Maher, Ph.D.           Tel: (206) 781-UNIX        |
|  SPUG Founder & Leader      Email: spug@halcyon.com    |
|  Seattle Perl Users Group   HTTP: www.halcyon.com/spug |
==========================================================

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