From popsters at intercom.net Thu Aug 2 01:34:41 2001 From: popsters at intercom.net (popsters@intercom.net) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters Message-ID: <20010802063441.014AD981AE@mail3.panix.com> Hi This message is intended for individual Seafood Lovers and Small Delis and Restaurants. My name is Bonnie Drewer, and I recently got my license from the Marine Resources Commisionto sell seafood. I catch 10 to 20 dozen crabs every day right here off my dock on one of the most Pristine areas of the Chesapeake Bay. There are no large farming operations, sewage plants or industry anywhere around here. I steam and clean all my crabs within an hour of being caught. They are in a better condition than any you've probably tasted. Never are they in cold storage or beside a dead or dying crab in a basket somewhere before they're cooked. When they arrive to you they have already had the back shell off, all unnecessary parts removed, and are washed clean - just the way they are shown above and below. My Crabmeat is Extra Clean, With absolutely no Shell. It is Restaurant grade, all backfin and perfect. I guarantee it to be the sweetest meat available anywhere. If you don't agree I'll gladly refund your money for the crabs - NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Call me anytime between 8 AM and 8 PM Eastern Time at 757-442-3355 Commercial Marine Resources License # 7390014870 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From shivan at ici.net Thu Aug 2 04:50:02 2001 From: shivan at ici.net (Mike) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters In-Reply-To: <20010802063441.014AD981AE@mail3.panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010802024920.02a894e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Huh? Sweet crab meat? SPUG? What does this have to do w/ it. Some one please tell me before I go insane. Peace, Mike At 02:34 AM 8/2/01 -0400, popsters@intercom.net wrote: >Hi > >This message is intended for individual Seafood Lovers and Small Delis and >Restaurants. > >My name is Bonnie Drewer, and I recently got my license from the Marine >Resources Commisionto sell seafood. > >I catch 10 to 20 dozen crabs every day right here off my dock on one of >the most Pristine areas of the Chesapeake Bay. There are no large farming >operations, sewage plants or industry anywhere around here. > >I steam and clean all my crabs within an hour of being caught. They are in >a better condition than any you've probably tasted. Never are they in cold >storage or beside a dead or dying crab in a basket somewhere before >they're cooked. > >When they arrive to you they have already had the back shell off, all >unnecessary parts removed, and are washed clean - just the way they are >shown above and below. > >My Crabmeat is Extra Clean, With absolutely no Shell. It is Restaurant >grade, all backfin and perfect. > >I guarantee it to be the sweetest meat available anywhere. If you don't >agree I'll gladly refund your money for the crabs - NO QUESTIONS ASKED. > >Call me anytime between 8 AM and 8 PM Eastern Time at >757-442-3355 Commercial Marine Resources License # 7390014870 > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mathin at mathin.com Thu Aug 2 10:04:52 2001 From: mathin at mathin.com (Dan Ebert) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010802024920.02a894e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: Seafood Partial Urban Gourmets duh. :) Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The shortest distance between two points is under construction. -- Noelie Alito ---------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Mike wrote: > Huh? > Sweet crab meat? > SPUG? > What does this have to do w/ it. > Some one please tell me before I go insane. > > > Peace, > Mike > > > At 02:34 AM 8/2/01 -0400, popsters@intercom.net wrote: > >Hi > > > >This message is intended for individual Seafood Lovers and Small Delis and > >Restaurants. > > > >My name is Bonnie Drewer, and I recently got my license from the Marine > >Resources Commisionto sell seafood. > > > >I catch 10 to 20 dozen crabs every day right here off my dock on one of > >the most Pristine areas of the Chesapeake Bay. There are no large farming > >operations, sewage plants or industry anywhere around here. > > > >I steam and clean all my crabs within an hour of being caught. They are in > >a better condition than any you've probably tasted. Never are they in cold > >storage or beside a dead or dying crab in a basket somewhere before > >they're cooked. > > > >When they arrive to you they have already had the back shell off, all > >unnecessary parts removed, and are washed clean - just the way they are > >shown above and below. > > > >My Crabmeat is Extra Clean, With absolutely no Shell. It is Restaurant > >grade, all backfin and perfect. > > > >I guarantee it to be the sweetest meat available anywhere. If you don't > >agree I'll gladly refund your money for the crabs - NO QUESTIONS ASKED. > > > >Call me anytime between 8 AM and 8 PM Eastern Time at > >757-442-3355 Commercial Marine Resources License # 7390014870 > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From danielj at cheshirecat.net Thu Aug 2 10:10:51 2001 From: danielj at cheshirecat.net (Daniel Jacobs) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010802024920.02a894e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: It's the new taste sensation - crab-flavored Spam :-) On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Mike wrote: > Huh? > Sweet crab meat? > SPUG? > What does this have to do w/ it. > Some one please tell me before I go insane. > Daniel Jacobs | danielj@cheshirecat.net | Internet & Unix Consulting "In art and dream, may you proceed with abandon. In life, may you proceed with balance and stealth." - Patti Smith - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From Karl.Hartman at pss.boeing.com Thu Aug 2 10:34:04 2001 From: Karl.Hartman at pss.boeing.com (Hartman, Karl B) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters Message-ID: Selective spam. > If you have any questions or comments, don't hesitate to call. > > Thanks, > > Karl Hartman > SSG/CNO Client/Server Operations - Computing Admin Process Mgmt > 425-294-8172 (office) 206-797-1873 (pager) > > Business Sense > "Failure to embrace an idea just because it doesn't make sense or > just plain doesn't work does not constitute resistance to change" > > Common Sense - from "Really important stuff my kids taught me" > "Write your name everywhere." > > > > ---------- > From: Mike[SMTP:shivan@ici.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 2:50 AM > To: popsters@intercom.net; spug-list@pm.org > Subject: Re: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters > > Huh? > Sweet crab meat? > SPUG? > What does this have to do w/ it. > Some one please tell me before I go insane. > > > Peace, > Mike > > > At 02:34 AM 8/2/01 -0400, popsters@intercom.net wrote: > >Hi > > > >This message is intended for individual Seafood Lovers and Small Delis and > >Restaurants. > > > >My name is Bonnie Drewer, and I recently got my license from the Marine > >Resources Commisionto sell seafood. > > > >I catch 10 to 20 dozen crabs every day right here off my dock on one of > >the most Pristine areas of the Chesapeake Bay. There are no large farming > >operations, sewage plants or industry anywhere around here. > > > >I steam and clean all my crabs within an hour of being caught. They are in > >a better condition than any you've probably tasted. Never are they in cold > >storage or beside a dead or dying crab in a basket somewhere before > >they're cooked. > > > >When they arrive to you they have already had the back shell off, all > >unnecessary parts removed, and are washed clean - just the way they are > >shown above and below. > > > >My Crabmeat is Extra Clean, With absolutely no Shell. It is Restaurant > >grade, all backfin and perfect. > > > >I guarantee it to be the sweetest meat available anywhere. If you don't > >agree I'll gladly refund your money for the crabs - NO QUESTIONS ASKED. > > > >Call me anytime between 8 AM and 8 PM Eastern Time at > >757-442-3355 Commercial Marine Resources License # 7390014870 > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From ericj at cubesearch.com Thu Aug 2 11:48:36 2001 From: ericj at cubesearch.com (Eric Johanson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe it was an offer to donate some at the next "Sea (food) Perl Users Group." Gotta love the crabs. :P -Eric On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Dan Ebert wrote: > > Seafood > Partial > Urban > Gourmets > > duh. > > :) > > Dan. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The shortest distance between two points is under construction. > -- Noelie Alito > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Mike wrote: > > > Huh? > > Sweet crab meat? > > SPUG? > > What does this have to do w/ it. > > Some one please tell me before I go insane. > > > > > > Peace, > > Mike > > > > > > At 02:34 AM 8/2/01 -0400, popsters@intercom.net wrote: > > >Hi > > > > > >This message is intended for individual Seafood Lovers and Small Delis and > > >Restaurants. > > > > > >My name is Bonnie Drewer, and I recently got my license from the Marine > > >Resources Commisionto sell seafood. > > > > > >I catch 10 to 20 dozen crabs every day right here off my dock on one of > > >the most Pristine areas of the Chesapeake Bay. There are no large farming > > >operations, sewage plants or industry anywhere around here. > > > > > >I steam and clean all my crabs within an hour of being caught. They are in > > >a better condition than any you've probably tasted. Never are they in cold > > >storage or beside a dead or dying crab in a basket somewhere before > > >they're cooked. > > > > > >When they arrive to you they have already had the back shell off, all > > >unnecessary parts removed, and are washed clean - just the way they are > > >shown above and below. > > > > > >My Crabmeat is Extra Clean, With absolutely no Shell. It is Restaurant > > >grade, all backfin and perfect. > > > > > >I guarantee it to be the sweetest meat available anywhere. If you don't > > >agree I'll gladly refund your money for the crabs - NO QUESTIONS ASKED. > > > > > >Call me anytime between 8 AM and 8 PM Eastern Time at > > >757-442-3355 Commercial Marine Resources License # 7390014870 > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From harding.a at portseattle.org Thu Aug 2 15:25:52 2001 From: harding.a at portseattle.org (Harding, Alyssa) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl Server Pages Message-ID: Interesting idea with two different implementations... http://www.ddj.com/articles/2001/0108/0108g/0108g.htm and the Sourceforge project: http://sourceforge.net/projects/psp/ A. -- Alyssa Harding UNIX System Administrator Port of Seattle - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From chris at chriskaukl.com Thu Aug 2 15:59:58 2001 From: chris at chriskaukl.com (chris@chriskaukl.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Try Gourmet Chesapeake Bay Blue Crabs or Crabmeat & Clam Fritters Message-ID: <20010802205958.950.cpmta@c007.snv.cp.net> Clam fritters? Ya gotta go with oysters if you want to find a Perl. - Chris On Thu, 02 August 2001, Eric Johanson wrote: > > Maybe it was an offer to donate some at the next "Sea (food) Perl Users Group." > > Gotta love the crabs. :P > > -Eric > > > On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Dan Ebert wrote: > > > > > Seafood > > Partial > > Urban > > Gourmets > > > > duh. > > > > :) > > > > Dan. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > The shortest distance between two points is under construction. > > -- Noelie Alito > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, Mike wrote: > > > > > Huh? > > > Sweet crab meat? > > > SPUG? > > > What does this have to do w/ it. > > > Some one please tell me before I go insane. > > > > > > > > > Peace, > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > At 02:34 AM 8/2/01 -0400, popsters@intercom.net wrote: > > > >Hi > > > > > > > >This message is intended for individual Seafood Lovers and Small Delis and > > > >Restaurants. > > > > > > > >My name is Bonnie Drewer, and I recently got my license from the Marine > > > >Resources Commisionto sell seafood. > > > > > > > >I catch 10 to 20 dozen crabs every day right here off my dock on one of > > > >the most Pristine areas of the Chesapeake Bay. There are no large farming > > > >operations, sewage plants or industry anywhere around here. > > > > > > > >I steam and clean all my crabs within an hour of being caught. They are in > > > >a better condition than any you've probably tasted. Never are they in cold > > > >storage or beside a dead or dying crab in a basket somewhere before > > > >they're cooked. > > > > > > > >When they arrive to you they have already had the back shell off, all > > > >unnecessary parts removed, and are washed clean - just the way they are > > > >shown above and below. > > > > > > > >My Crabmeat is Extra Clean, With absolutely no Shell. It is Restaurant > > > >grade, all backfin and perfect. > > > > > > > >I guarantee it to be the sweetest meat available anywhere. If you don't > > > >agree I'll gladly refund your money for the crabs - NO QUESTIONS ASKED. > > > > > > > >Call me anytime between 8 AM and 8 PM Eastern Time at > > > >757-442-3355 Commercial Marine Resources License # 7390014870 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Sun Aug 5 04:48:50 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Special Meeting: The Horror That Is SelfGOL Message-ID: <20010805024850.B26081@hobart.helvella.org> Friends, Join us to welcome back Damian Conway for this month's meeting. Working his way up the west coast from OReilly's Perl Conference in San Diego, Damian stops back in Seattle to give us a taste of his latest madness, extreme programming with Perl. The meeting is on Thursday, 8/9/01 (instead of the usual Tuesday), from 7 to 9 in the evening at the regular meeting space at N2H2. See the webpage at http://zipcon.net/spug for directions. >From the description at: http://yetanother.org/damian/events/Extreme.html the SelfGOL program: an obfuscated, self-aware, viral quine that can: . self-replicate, . rewrite other Perl programs to allow them to self-replicate, . detect un-rewritable Perl programs, . execute itself or other Perl programs as cellular automata of arbitrary size (to play Conway's "Game of Life"), . animate any short text as a cycling marquee banner. SelfGOL accomplishes these feats in under 1000 bytes of standard Perl, without importing any modules, and without using a single if, unless, while, until, for, foreach, goto, next, last, redo, map, or grep. To do all that in under 1K of code, it relies on some extreme programming techniques, and on many of the obscure backwaters of the Perl syntax. This talk explores both. In other words, it's everything you never wanted to know about Perl, and would have been afraid to ask. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 7 13:07:21 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Special Meeting: The Horror That Is SelfGOL In-Reply-To: <20010805024850.B26081@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: Just like at Damian visits past, I will be providing snacks (all unhealthy) and various carbonated beverages (also unhealthy) again. You would be amazed at how much energy the human brain consumes during one of these talks. Hey folks! I'm looking for a volunteer that has nothing better to do this Thursday evening starting at about 5:30 or so. I would (very much!) appreciate a hand with the preparations for this special meeting: Moving chairs and tables, hanging signs, setting out the snacks, etc. If this sounds like you, let me know. I plan on having someone at the door to let folks in early that are looking for a seat (otherwise, plan on standing or sitting in the aisle way). So, feel free to drop anytime after 5:30 PM. I heard a rumor that someone might sing for us. ;) (Am I going to get into trouble for that?) On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Colin Meyer wrote: > The meeting is on Thursday, 8/9/01 (instead of the usual Tuesday), from > 7 to 9 in the evening at the regular meeting space at N2H2. See the > webpage at http://zipcon.net/spug for directions. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From dcd at tc.fluke.com Tue Aug 7 13:09:37 2001 From: dcd at tc.fluke.com (David Dyck) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Special Meeting: The Horror That Is SelfGOL In-Reply-To: <20010805024850.B26081@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2001, Colin Meyer wrote: > >From the description at: http://yetanother.org/damian/events/Extreme.html > > the SelfGOL program: an obfuscated, self-aware, viral quine that can: > > . self-replicate, > . rewrite other Perl programs to allow them to self-replicate, > . detect un-rewritable Perl programs, > . execute itself or other Perl programs as cellular automata of > arbitrary size (to play Conway's "Game of Life"), > . animate any short text as a cycling marquee banner. > > SelfGOL accomplishes these feats in under 1000 bytes of standard Perl, > without importing any modules, and without using a single if, unless, > while, until, for, foreach, goto, next, last, redo, map, or grep. > > To do all that in under 1K of code, it relies on some extreme > programming techniques, and on many of the obscure backwaters of the > Perl syntax. This talk explores both. > > In other words, it's everything you never wanted to know about Perl, and > would have been afraid to ask. I greatly regret that I won't be able to attend this event, but I used google to search for references to selfgol netscape http://www.google.com/search?q=selfgol%20tar and found the link below http://secure.lucidx.com/other/entries/conway-SPECIAL that contains SelfGOL.tar.gz -rwx------ damian/staff 996 1999-12-06 17:11 SelfGOL/selfgol I extracted selfgol and looked at it's source, as well as perl -MO=Deparse selfgol and perltidy selfgol Trouble is, the program doesn't work as described with the perl I have installed. (selfgol -s didn't print out it own source, and selfgol demo.pl > demo2.pl just printed "No") Hopefully you will receive an updated selfgol and someone on the spug list could post it to list for the rest of us. Take good notes :-) David - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From george_umia1 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 22:28:34 2001 From: george_umia1 at yahoo.com (George Umia) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: VENTURE CAPITAL Message-ID: <200108071935.f77JZQC01404@gocho.pm.org> URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL This letter may come to you as a surprise since it is coming from someone you have not met before. However, we decided to contact you based on a satisfactory information we had about your business person as regard business information concerning your country and the safety of our funds in a steady economy such as that of your country compared to our country Nigeria Africa. I am a civil adviser currently working with the monitoring committee overseeing the winding up of the petroleum trust fund(PTF).Myself and my close and trusted colleagues need your assistance in the transfer of US$25 million into any reliable Account you may nominate overseas. This fund was generated from over-invoicing of contracts executed by the PTF under the administration of the past military government. These were discovered while we were reviewing the PTF accounts. From our discoveries, these contracts have been executed and the contractors in question were all paid. The difference of US$25,000,000 being the over-invoiced amount is the funds, we want your corporate entity to help us receive. What we want from you is a good and reliable company or personal Account into which we shall transfer this fund. Details should include the following: 1. Name of Bank 2. Address of Bank with Fax & Tel. 3. Account Number 4. Beneficiary/Signatory to Account (Account Name) Upon the Successful crediting of your account. The fund will be shared as follows: 1. 20% for you and your assistance 2. 75% for myself & my Colleagues 3. 5% for contingency expenses Please after your first reply through e-mail I will want us to continue further communication by fax and telephone for confidential purpose. We wish to assure you that your involvement should you decide to assist us, will be well protected, and also, this business, proposal is 100% risk free as we have put a whole lot into it. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation while we look forward to a mutually benefiting business relationship with you. Please when replying to my e-mail kindly include your telephone, fax number and mobile telephone numbers preferably extremely private numbers where we can reach you any time of the day. Please be aware that a high level of confidentiality and trust is required in this business. You can reach me on my confidential telephone number 234 1 7754093 and my fax number 234 9 2720239. Best Regards, George Umia. Tel No.: 234 1 7754093 Fax No.:234 9 2720239 Email:drgeorgeumia@eudoramail.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From damian at mail.csse.monash.edu.au Tue Aug 7 16:06:57 2001 From: damian at mail.csse.monash.edu.au (Damian Conway) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Special Meeting: The Horror That Is SelfGOL Message-ID: <200108072106.HAA12494@indy05.csse.monash.edu.au> > I greatly regret that I won't be able to attend this event, but > I used google to search for references to selfgol > and found the link below > http://secure.lucidx.com/other/entries/conway-SPECIAL Sorry, that was an old version that escaped the laboratory and should never have seen the light of day. My advice would certainly be to ignore it. > Just like at Damian visits past, I will be providing snacks (all > unhealthy) and various carbonated beverages (also unhealthy) again. You > would be amazed at how much energy the human brain consumes during one of > these talks. Not to mention inhuman brains ;-) > I heard a rumor that someone might sing for us. ;) (Am I going to get > into trouble for that?) Only if you actually persuade me to sing, I suspect ;-) > > The meeting is on Thursday, 8/9/01 (instead of the usual Tuesday), from > > 7 to 9 in the evening at the regular meeting space at N2H2. See the > > webpage at http://zipcon.net/spug for directions. Of course, if you actually believe it's going to finish at 9pm, you've obviously never been to a Damian talk before. ;-) Damian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From beldar at pobox.com Wed Aug 8 01:47:17 2001 From: beldar at pobox.com (Gardner Cohen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: VENTURE CAPITAL References: <200108071935.f77JZQC01404@gocho.pm.org> Message-ID: <009001c11fd5$f7e59d40$0300a8c0@amazon.com> > URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL http://www.umich.edu/~virus-busters/hoaxes/nigeria_urgentbiz.html a variant of http://www.umich.edu/~virus-busters/hoaxes/nigeria_scam.html I think some bonus versions of this include amazing long distance charges (tens or hundreds of dollars per minute) for calling the number. Some reports claim this scam is the 3rd or 5th largest "industry" in Nigeria. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcrip at cac.washington.edu Wed Aug 8 09:54:43 2001 From: mcrip at cac.washington.edu (Marvin Crippen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: VENTURE CAPITAL In-Reply-To: <009001c11fd5$f7e59d40$0300a8c0@amazon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Gardner Cohen wrote: > > URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL > > http://www.umich.edu/~virus-busters/hoaxes/nigeria_urgentbiz.html > > a variant of > > http://www.umich.edu/~virus-busters/hoaxes/nigeria_scam.html > > I think some bonus versions of this include amazing long distance charges > (tens or hundreds of dollars per minute) for calling the number. A friend of mine recently recently recieved a similar bit of spam and after a bit of investigation ended up sending a copy of it to the Secret Service. More details at http://www.treas.gov/usss/index.htm?alert419.htm&1 -- Marvin Crippen mcrip@cac.washington.edu DO-IT Program http://www.washington.edu/doit/ (206) 221-4166 It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java the thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the shaking become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From SEYMOUR at npl.npl.washington.edu Wed Aug 8 11:43:28 2001 From: SEYMOUR at npl.npl.washington.edu (Richard Seymour UW-NPL) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: re: SPUG re: VENTURE CAPITAL Message-ID: <010808094328.232121b5@npl.npl.washington.edu> > > URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL We used to get almost the exact same wording via FAX back in 1988... (at least it cost -them- something to send it in Ye Goode Olde Days) nothing new under the sun... --dick - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From TimBuckwalter at aol.com Wed Aug 8 15:34:37 2001 From: TimBuckwalter at aol.com (Tim Buckwalter) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: re: SPUG re: VENTURE CAPITAL References: <010808094328.232121b5@npl.npl.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3B71A25D.47821A44@aol.com> I remember seeing a surface-mailed letter of this back in 1989, although the author at the time was a certain "Prince Koko". Also, the terms were more favorable then: I think he was willing to split it 50-50... (now he wants 75%... ) --Tim Richard Seymour UW-NPL wrote: > > > URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL > > We used to get almost the exact same wording via FAX back in 1988... > (at least it cost -them- something to send it in Ye Goode Olde Days) > > nothing new under the sun... > --dick > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From MichaelRunningWolf at att.net Wed Aug 8 16:33:36 2001 From: MichaelRunningWolf at att.net (MichaelRunningWolf@att.net) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: Request for ride and sleeping space for Thursday meeting Message-ID: <20010808213337.EJQV3707.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> I am currently on a cross-country bicycle trip, and heard about the SPUG meeting on Thursday. I'd love to attend my first-ever PUG. Not wanting to "brave" the urban traffic scene into Seattle, I have two (possibly independant) requests. 1) A ride from Tacoma (or anywhere south of Seattle) to the meeting (and possibly the pre-meeting at the brew pub) 2) A lawn or couch (I'll have sleeping bag with me) to crash on for Thursday night that allows me public transportation back to my bicycle. Please reply by phone (easier) on 732/809-3613 or email (harder, but doable) to MichaelRunningWolf@att.net Thanks in advance for your hospitality and generosity, Michael Wolf - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From leary at nwlink.com Wed Aug 8 17:11:30 2001 From: leary at nwlink.com (leary@nwlink.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: web prog. tools of choice? Message-ID: <20010808151130.G9126@jean.nwlink.com> Sorry if this is conquered ground, but I just (re-)subscribed and there's no archive... A while back Lincoln Stein's CGI.pm was were it was at, but now it seems that Apache::Registry (and other Apache:: modules), plus HTML::Mason/Template (or Template::Toolkit) have given it the boot. No? *Is* CGI.pm pretty much dead for programming web sites, i.e. sites that have a consistent "look and feel"? What's the standard bundle of modules (following the 80/20 rule) that people *are* using for programming dynamic web sites? (This is a market question, not a technical one.) I found this link comparing Template::Toolkit and HTML::Template http://torrington.cuckoo.org/template_systems.shtml Anyone know how currently accurate the comparison is? Comments on either? And, of course, what am I completely overlooking? -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mathin at mathin.com Wed Aug 8 17:29:33 2001 From: mathin at mathin.com (Dan Ebert) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: web prog. tools of choice? In-Reply-To: <20010808151130.G9126@jean.nwlink.com> Message-ID: I still use CGI.pm quite a bit. We have written our own module to handle our site look-and-feel ... a template type module. Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The shortest distance between two points is under construction. -- Noelie Alito ---------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 leary@nwlink.com wrote: > Sorry if this is conquered ground, but I just (re-)subscribed and there's > no archive... > > A while back Lincoln Stein's CGI.pm was were it was at, but now it seems > that Apache::Registry (and other Apache:: modules), plus > HTML::Mason/Template (or Template::Toolkit) have given it the boot. No? > > *Is* CGI.pm pretty much dead for programming web sites, i.e. sites that > have a consistent "look and feel"? > > What's the standard bundle of modules (following the 80/20 rule) that > people *are* using for programming dynamic web sites? (This is a market > question, not a technical one.) > > I found this link comparing Template::Toolkit and HTML::Template > http://torrington.cuckoo.org/template_systems.shtml > Anyone know how currently accurate the comparison is? Comments on either? > > And, of course, what am I completely overlooking? > > > -- > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Aug 9 17:34:02 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: "Extreme Damian" tonight, 7pm Message-ID: <20010809153402.A7406@timji.consultix.wa.com> SPUGsters, Final reminder about tonight's special SPUG meeting, featuring the wacky but brilliant, irreverent but tactful, dazzlingly daft "Mad Scientist of Perl", Dr. Damian Conway ! He'll be giving one of his smash-hit talks from the Perl Conference especially for us tonight. It's an event not to be missed by those willing to be dumbfounded, stupefied, de-stupified, perplexed, re-gruntled, entranced, and educated all at the same time -- actually, "in constant time!" (Sorry, couldn't resist: "Quantum Superpositions" joke!) Suffice it to say that Perl fans serious about learning more Perl through clever silliness won't want to miss this! More details follow; see you there! -Tim ======================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: seattleperl.com | ======================================================== Seattle Perl Users Group Special August Meeting Title: "Extreme Perl" Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway Indentured Perl Servant Extraordinaire Time: August 9th, 2001, 7pm-9pm Location: Union Bank of Cal., Madison & 5th, 5th Floor Mtg Room More Info: www.zipcon.net/~spug Reception: Starts at 5:30 pm, Rock Bottom Brewery (1333 5th Ave., Seattle) Cost: Free! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Details: The SelfGOL program is an obfuscated, self-aware, viral quine that can: . self-replicate, . rewrite other Perl programs to allow them to self-replicate, . detect un-rewritable Perl programs, . execute itself or other Perl programs as cellular automata of arbitrary size (to play Conway's "Game of Life"), . animate any short text as a cycling marquee banner. SelfGOL accomplishes these feats in under 1000 bytes of standard Perl, without importing any modules, and without using a single if, unless, while, until, for, foreach, goto, next, last, redo, map, or grep. To do all that in under 1K of code, it relies on some extreme programming techniques, and on many of the obscure backwaters of the Perl syntax. This talk explores both. In other words, it's everything you never wanted to know about Perl, and would have been afraid to ask. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Aug 9 17:38:09 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: "Extreme Damian" tonight, 7pm, Seattle Message-ID: <20010809153809.A7501@timji.consultix.wa.com> SPUGsters, Final reminder about tonight's special SPUG meeting, featuring the wacky but brilliant, irreverent but tactful, dazzlingly daft "Mad Scientist of Perl", Dr. Damian Conway ! He'll be giving one of his smash-hit talks from the Perl Conference especially for us tonight. It's an event not to be missed by those willing to be dumbfounded, stupefied, de-stupified, perplexed, re-gruntled, entranced, and educated all at the same time -- actually, "in constant time!" (Sorry, couldn't resist: "Quantum Superpositions" joke!) Suffice it to say that Perl fans serious about learning more Perl through clever silliness won't want to miss this! More details follow below; see you there! -Tim ======================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: seattleperl.com | ======================================================== Seattle Perl Users Group Special August Meeting Title: "Extreme Perl" Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway Indentured Perl Servant Extraordinaire Time: August 9th, 2001, 7pm-9pm Location: Union Bank of Cal., Madison & 5th, 5th Floor Mtg Room More Info: www.zipcon.net/~spug Reception: Starts at 5:30 pm, Rock Bottom Brewery (1333 5th Ave., Seattle) Cost: Free! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Details: The SelfGOL program is an obfuscated, self-aware, viral quine that can: . self-replicate, . rewrite other Perl programs to allow them to self-replicate, . detect un-rewritable Perl programs, . execute itself or other Perl programs as cellular automata of arbitrary size (to play Conway's "Game of Life"), . animate any short text as a cycling marquee banner. SelfGOL accomplishes these feats in under 1000 bytes of standard Perl, without importing any modules, and without using a single if, unless, while, until, for, foreach, goto, next, last, redo, map, or grep. To do all that in under 1K of code, it relies on some extreme programming techniques, and on many of the obscure backwaters of the Perl syntax. This talk explores both. In other words, it's everything you never wanted to know about Perl, and would have been afraid to ask. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Thu Aug 9 17:56:27 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:11 2004 Subject: SPUG: "Extreme Damian"; again? Message-ID: <20010809155627.A7679@timji.consultix.wa.com> I've submitted the attached announcement 3 times now, and I haven't seen it show up once. Please excuse me if you have already seen it; I'll try once more to get it posted, to make sure everybody is reminded. -Tim *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | Email: tim@consultix-inc.com Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl BRIAN INGERSON: Inline.pm | | CLASSES-> Minimal Perl: 9/17; Perl+Mods: 9/18; UNIX: 9/24; Inline: 11/6 | *=========================================================================* SPUGsters, Final reminder about tonight's special SPUG meeting, featuring the wacky but brilliant, irreverent but tactful, dazzlyingly daft "Mad Scientist of Perl", Dr. Damian Conway ! He'll be giving one of his smash-hit talks from the Perl Conference especially for us tonight. It's an event not to be missed by those willing to be dumbfounded, stupefied, de-stupified, perplexed, re-gruntled, entranced, and educated all at the same time -- actually, "in constant time!" (Quantum Superpositions joke.) Suffice it to say that Perl fans serious about learning more Perl through clever silliness won't want to miss this! More details follow; see you there! -Tim ======================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: seattleperl.com | ======================================================== Seattle Perl Users Group Special August Meeting Title: "Extreme Perl" Speaker: Dr. Damian Conway Indentured Perl Servant Extraordinaire Time: August 9th, 2001, 7pm-9pm Location: Union Bank of Cal., Madison & 5th, 5th Floor Mtg Room More Info: www.zipcon.net/~spug Reception: Starts at 5:30 pm, Rock Bottom Brewery (1333 5th Ave., Seattle) Cost: Free! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Details: The SelfGOL program is an obfuscated, self-aware, viral quine that can: . self-replicate, . rewrite other Perl programs to allow them to self-replicate, . detect un-rewritable Perl programs, . execute itself or other Perl programs as cellular automata of arbitrary size (to play Conway's "Game of Life"), . animate any short text as a cycling marquee banner. SelfGOL accomplishes these feats in under 1000 bytes of standard Perl, without importing any modules, and without using a single if, unless, while, until, for, foreach, goto, next, last, redo, map, or grep. To do all that in under 1K of code, it relies on some extreme programming techniques, and on many of the obscure backwaters of the Perl syntax. This talk explores both. In other words, it's everything you never wanted to know about Perl, and would have been afraid to ask. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From kevin at economyart.com Thu Aug 9 18:09:09 2001 From: kevin at economyart.com (Kevin Watt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: web prog. tools of choice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I, too, and most people I know use CGI.pm extensivly. And I too have developed my own module for look-and-feel, I've played with HTML::Template and Template.pm, but neither were going to be that useful, since my pages are 90% dynamic content, it would have been silly to bother with a html file. See y'all tonight. Ciao, Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Dan Ebert Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 3:30 PM To: leary@nwlink.com Cc: spug-list@pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: web prog. tools of choice? I still use CGI.pm quite a bit. We have written our own module to handle our site look-and-feel ... a template type module. Dan. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The shortest distance between two points is under construction. -- Noelie Alito ---------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 leary@nwlink.com wrote: > Sorry if this is conquered ground, but I just (re-)subscribed and there's > no archive... > > A while back Lincoln Stein's CGI.pm was were it was at, but now it seems > that Apache::Registry (and other Apache:: modules), plus > HTML::Mason/Template (or Template::Toolkit) have given it the boot. No? > > *Is* CGI.pm pretty much dead for programming web sites, i.e. sites that > have a consistent "look and feel"? > > What's the standard bundle of modules (following the 80/20 rule) that > people *are* using for programming dynamic web sites? (This is a market > question, not a technical one.) > > I found this link comparing Template::Toolkit and HTML::Template > http://torrington.cuckoo.org/template_systems.shtml > Anyone know how currently accurate the comparison is? Comments on either? > > And, of course, what am I completely overlooking? > > > -- > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From andy at sweger.net Fri Aug 10 03:16:20 2001 From: andy at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work Message-ID: I just want to thank all the folks that helped this evening with the setup and take down for the meeting. Especially John, Alyssa, and C.J., Thank you. That was a great presentation, Damian. Thank you again. I'm sure I can hand compile just about any bit of Perl code now. To all my friends out there that thought the weather was too nice today or felt they had to work or had to wait for the DSL technician to call back, tsk tsk. How can you live with the regret? :) The post-meeting socializing was great. I am more convinced than ever that things like Perl and Open Source and especially the *people* that are involved will have a deep influence on this village Earth. I do sympathize with Dave Cross' (of London.pm) essay to keep the newbies and wannabies out. But I think that spreading our ideas and values to enough people (critical mass) will bring about profound changes in the world. It's time for Earth to evolve. There seem to be a few folks looking for work. I'd like to propose a topic for an upcoming regular SPUG meeting. What's the level of interest for a meeting on how to find your next Perl job? What would make a good meeting format for this topic? What special guest(s) would be useful? -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From leary at nwlink.com Fri Aug 10 14:43:40 2001 From: leary at nwlink.com (leary@nwlink.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work In-Reply-To: ; from andy@sweger.net on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:16:20AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010810124340.A17003@jean.nwlink.com> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:16:20AM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: > What special guest(s) would be useful? hiring managers with open positions? :) -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From dleonard at dleonard.net Fri Aug 10 17:42:52 2001 From: dleonard at dleonard.net (Douglas Leonard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was probably a presentation Andy *shouldn't* have gone to. He already has a penchant for fugly one-liners. :) Anyway, I'm sorry that I missed it but the sun in Seattle only calls like this a few times per year. At least I got to see the short version of the talk at O'Reilly. -- On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Andrew Sweger wrote: > To all my friends out there that thought the weather was too nice today or > felt they had to work or had to wait for the DSL technician to call back, > tsk tsk. How can you live with the regret? :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From kevin at economyart.com Fri Aug 10 21:34:48 2001 From: kevin at economyart.com (Kevin Watt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps we should look into forming some sort of co-op or groups to compete for contracts on the many web-based sites designed for this (of which the urls I can't find right now... perhaps someone can remember them). I agree about your village earth comment :) And yet, I still remain confused on what perls target growth is. It strikes me that the push doesn't seem to be to replace every other language out there - I would be interested to hear other's thoughts on this matter, though. Personally, I know I get frustrated struggling with a language thats so slow to code in, compared to perl. Contrasting with that, I was at the IJCAI conference on artificial intelligence at the convention center today, and got into a discussion with someone about how I hoped to use perl for artifical intelligence purposes. He countered that perl isn't the best language for the job because it is hard to maintain when the project gets large (which I have certainly had problems with in the past). However, I feel that while perl's many options let you be lazy if you want to, you can certainly structure things (as with OOP) such that perl does scale well... Anyways, I'd be interested in others' opinions on the matter. Ciao All, Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Andrew Sweger Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:16 AM To: Seattle Perl Users Group Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work I just want to thank all the folks that helped this evening with the setup and take down for the meeting. Especially John, Alyssa, and C.J., Thank you. That was a great presentation, Damian. Thank you again. I'm sure I can hand compile just about any bit of Perl code now. To all my friends out there that thought the weather was too nice today or felt they had to work or had to wait for the DSL technician to call back, tsk tsk. How can you live with the regret? :) The post-meeting socializing was great. I am more convinced than ever that things like Perl and Open Source and especially the *people* that are involved will have a deep influence on this village Earth. I do sympathize with Dave Cross' (of London.pm) essay to keep the newbies and wannabies out. But I think that spreading our ideas and values to enough people (critical mass) will bring about profound changes in the world. It's time for Earth to evolve. There seem to be a few folks looking for work. I'd like to propose a topic for an upcoming regular SPUG meeting. What's the level of interest for a meeting on how to find your next Perl job? What would make a good meeting format for this topic? What special guest(s) would be useful? -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From dancerboy at strangelight.com Fri Aug 10 22:58:47 2001 From: dancerboy at strangelight.com (dancerboy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:34 PM -0700 8/10/01, Kevin Watt wrote: >Perhaps we should look into forming some sort of co-op or groups to compete >for contracts on the many web-based sites designed for this (of which the >urls I can't find right now... perhaps someone can remember them). Maybe all of us unemployed Perl programmers should just get together and start our own company. Anyone got an extra business model laying around? :) >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of >Andrew Sweger >[....] > I do sympathize >with Dave Cross' (of London.pm) essay to keep the newbies and wannabies >out. Do you have a link to this? It sounds interesting, and I couldn't find it on a google search (unless you're referring to his "Modest Proposal" essay on the Londom.pm site? but the gist of that essay seemed to me to be exactly the opposite...) -jason - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From leary at nwlink.com Fri Aug 10 23:59:57 2001 From: leary at nwlink.com (leary@nwlink.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work In-Reply-To: ; from dancerboy@strangelight.com on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:58:47PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010810215957.A18557@jean.nwlink.com> On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:58:47PM -0700, dancerboy wrote: > Maybe all of us unemployed Perl programmers should just get together > and start our own company. Anyone got an extra business model laying > around? :) MLM? :^) -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From Richard.Anderson at raycosoft.com Sat Aug 11 10:14:04 2001 From: Richard.Anderson at raycosoft.com (Richard Anderson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) References: Message-ID: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Watt" > He countered that perl isn't the best language for > the job because it is hard to maintain when the project gets large (which I > have certainly had problems with in the past). However, I feel that while > perl's many options let you be lazy if you want to, you can certainly > structure things (as with OOP) such that perl does scale well... Anyways, > I'd be interested in others' opinions on the matter. Much as I like Perl, weakly-typed, free-form languages like Perl are not as appropriate for large projects as C++ and Java are. Since Perl doesn't have any way of enforcing compliance with subroutine interfaces for OO calls, it can be difficult to track down bugs in large systems. It's easy to say that programmers shouldn't create bugs, but using a strongly-typed language can produce a better product. More importantly, C++ and Java programmers tend to be more rigorous than Perl programmers. Damian's talk is a good illustration of some of the warped programming styles that Perl can seduce programmers into. (I realize that he was writing a submission for the Obfuscated Perl Contest, but unfortunately there are many Perl programmers who emulate this "cool" style.) Obfuscated programming can be done in Java and C++ too, but the implicit OO structure of these languages discourages it. Perl uses some non-standard OOP features that make it a bit awkward for OOP, like being able to dynamically change your superclass at runtime and failing to implicitly call a superclass's constructor. Some might argue that these are improvements over Java and C++, but they are still non-standard and can induce confusion. Python and Ruby are superior to Perl as object-oriented languages since they were originally designed as OO languages rather than Bourne shell / awk / C derivatives as Perl was. This is a religious issue, and everyone has a different point of view. My utilitarian position is that Perl is just another tool in the programmer's toolbox. It has strengths and weaknesses that make it appropriate for some situations and not appropriate for others. Even a lame platform like VB on Windows has its uses. Cheers, Richard - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From paradive at industrial.org Sat Aug 11 10:22:51 2001 From: paradive at industrial.org (paradive) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work References: Message-ID: <00e801c12279$7c8a2520$90c01318@sttln1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "dancerboy" To: "Seattle Perl Users Group" Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: RE: SPUG: Thanks, Evolution, & finding Perl work > At 7:34 PM -0700 8/10/01, Kevin Watt wrote: > >Perhaps we should look into forming some sort of co-op or groups to compete > >for contracts on the many web-based sites designed for this (of which the > >urls I can't find right now... perhaps someone can remember them). > > Maybe all of us unemployed Perl programmers should just get together > and start our own company. Anyone got an extra business model laying > around? :) good idea! count me in! =) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Sat Aug 11 13:22:56 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: <87wv4ajw1r.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> "Richard Anderson" writes: | Much as I like Perl, weakly-typed, free-form languages like Perl are not as | appropriate for large projects as C++ and Java are. Since Perl doesn't have | any way of enforcing compliance with subroutine interfaces for OO calls, it | can be difficult to track down bugs in large systems. It's easy to say that | programmers shouldn't create bugs, but using a strongly-typed language can | produce a better product. | | More importantly, C++ and Java programmers tend to be more rigorous than | Perl programmers. Damian's talk is a good illustration of some of the | warped programming styles that Perl can seduce programmers into. Okay, hold it right there. Back when I was a Pascal fan (1981-6), I used to say the same sort of thing about C programmers. Pascal was a nice, high-level, strongly typed language, whereas C (at the time, K&R C---ANSI C was on the far horizon) allowed you to break typing, screw with function calls, etc., etc., etc. Moreover, most of the C code I'd seen to date was obscure---I would even say "badly written" from a maintenance viewpoint, whereas my Pascal programs were graceful, well written and comprehensible. I mentioned this to my teacher one day, and he said, "It's time to let you in on an old adage: `You can write FORTRAN in any language.'" And he was right. I went back, grabbed one of those badly-written C programs, translated it into something better written, and started seeing the beauty of the language. I even started wishing I had access to a Unix system (though when I got there, it gave me the willies---nothing like my good ol' relatively comprehensible VMS systems, mostly because of the influence of the C language). Once I did get hold of my own Unix account, though, and got past the obscureness of the commands (RENAME became mv, COPY became cp, HELP became man, ASSIGN became either setenv, or a two-step involving export, etc., etc., etc.), I became a C junkie. What a great language. It was more flexible than Pascal, more capable, more lyrical if you will, and you could write code just as rigorously if you wanted. (Same with Unix vs VMS, actually.) In short, it became an appropriate language. I was introduced to Perl in 1986, but didn't start using it until the following year. Even then, I was reluctant to use it---it wasn't as common as sh, and it had some quirks to boot: implicit variables, nonstandard regular expressions, all those weird little prefixes. Reminded me of some bastard child of awk and BASIC, really. But it eventually grew on me, and when I became a genyuine sysadmin, with the capability of making sure it was on any system I ran, Perl became my scripting language of choice. But I never would have used it for large projects. But system speeds and Perl 5 have changed my view on even that. Now Perl is object-oriented. That's a tough thing to bolt onto a procedural language. The only *native* object-oriented language I've seen that did it really well (IMHO, of course) was SmallTalk-80: simple paradigm, simple grammar, in short, a really naturally object-oriented language. C++ is, by comparison, awful. It has an ambiguous grammar, overloading operators can quickly lead to chaos, and using the >> and << operators for I/O is a travesty against man and God/Allah/ The Great Spirit/Zeus/Sparky/what-have-you. A much better solution was Objective C, which melded SmallTalk with C to produce a true object-oriented language *without* those problems, but adoption was (and remains) slow, except on MacOS X (formerly NeXTstep). Java takes out some of the worst elements in C++, but what's left isn't particularly graceful. Perl's object-orientedness isn't particularly graceful, either, admittedly. On the other hand, it's less inherently obfuscative than C++, and if you code properly, the code can be just as robust. Admittedly, it's not as fast as compiled code, but that's becoming less of a problem, too---for critical parts of loops, you can always resort to Inline, or be relatively clever with your data structures and use the array functions properly. | Obfuscated programming can be done in Java and C++ too, but the implicit OO | structure of these languages discourages it. No amount of structure will discourage obfuscation if that's how the programmer writes. Even Ada, possibly the most strongly typed, most anal-retentive language that was ever invented, could be obfuscated with a few easy steps. To take a Pascal example: function kumquat (booger : integer) : integer; var fairies, rutabaga : integer; begin rutabaga := 1; kumquat := booger; if kumquat = rutabaga then kumquat := rutabaga else begin kumquat := kumquat(kumquat - rutabaga) end end Not immediately obvious that it's just our old friend the recursive factorial function, is it? Badly written, I admit, but it serves the purpose. I guarantee you as well that I can write a good ol' run-of-the-mill procedural program in C++ or even Java, no sweat, *and* make it just as incomprehensible. Perl no more "encourages" bad code than any other language does. It's up to the programmer to make it solid. | Perl uses some non-standard OOP features that make it a bit awkward for OOP, | like being able to dynamically change your superclass at runtime and failing | to implicitly call a superclass's constructor. Every object-oriented language uses "non-standard features," except SmallTalk and a few other obscure ones. None of those are in general use, unfortunately. (Doing large projects in SmallTalk would be *cool*.) So I don't buy that Perl is more confusing or more prone to confusion than Java or C++. In some ways, it's less. | Python and Ruby are superior to Perl as object-oriented languages since they | were originally designed as OO languages rather than Bourne shell / awk / C | derivatives as Perl was. I don't have much experience with Ruby yet. Python has an admittedly stricter approach to object-orientedness, but it had the *advantage* of not needing so much backwards compatibility, and not needing to support the rather difficult core code that Perl has at the moment. On the other hand, having kept up with the Apocalypses, I think Perl 6 is going to be one heck of a kick-ass language. Stronger typing (if you want it), better object-orientedness (if you want it), and better consistency. Given what's coming down the pipe, it's hard to work up much enthusiasm for Python. | It has strengths and weaknesses that make it appropriate for some situations | and not appropriate for others. Perl is a high-level language, just as appropriate for high-level projects as any other high-level language. About the only thing I wouldn't write in it is device drivers, code that absolutely requires speed, or something else disturbingly low-level. But I wouldn't use C++ for those, either. The one thing I really wish Perl had going for it is a really good cross-platform GUI library. Alas. :) | Even a lame platform like VB on Windows has its uses. I dunno. VB has become sort of the modern-day COBOL. :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From leary at nwlink.com Sat Aug 11 16:40:40 2001 From: leary at nwlink.com (leary@nwlink.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin>; from Richard.Anderson@raycosoft.com on Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:14:04AM -0700 References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: <20010811144040.B23358@jean.nwlink.com> Java and C++ strongly typed? I prefer a more extreme variation than the distance between those and Perl. For strict, I'll take O'Caml over Java almost any day. :) -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Sat Aug 11 17:28:31 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: <20010811152831.E4207@hobart.helvella.org> On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:14:04AM -0700, Richard Anderson wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Watt" > > > He countered that perl isn't the best language for > > the job because it is hard to maintain when the project gets large (which > I > > have certainly had problems with in the past). However, I feel that while > > perl's many options let you be lazy if you want to, you can certainly > > structure things (as with OOP) such that perl does scale well... Anyways, > > I'd be interested in others' opinions on the matter. > > Much as I like Perl, weakly-typed, free-form languages like Perl are > not as appropriate for large projects as C++ and Java are. Since Perl > doesn't have any way of enforcing compliance with subroutine > interfaces for OO calls, it can be Looked at Class::Contract? btw, Perl6 will support (if I understand correctly) data containers with strong types. For example, my int $x; # $x can only store ints my dog $spot; # $spot can only hold objects of class dog This sort of functionality can be accomplished with Perl5, through OO interfaces, or tieing. > difficult to > track down bugs in large systems. It's easy to say that programmers > shouldn't create bugs, but using a strongly-typed language can produce a > better product. ? Explain - IMO, it is just as easy (and necessary) to launder data in strongly typed languages as weakly typed ones. Just because you know that a particular data container contains a string (as opposed to it possibly being a float or ref), that doesn't mean that it is safe for your program to use in any way that it might use a string. > > More importantly, C++ and Java programmers tend to be more rigorous than > Perl programmers. Damian's talk is a good illustration of some of the > warped programming styles that Perl can seduce programmers into. (I realize The whole point of obsfu is not being "seduced" into a certain style, but careful planning and thought so that your style isn't recognizable. Code that was purposely designed to be tricky is an example of just that, tricky code. It doesn't reflect anything whatsoever about cleanly written code. I've tried to maintain some incredibly irrigorous Java code. One of the things that turned me off to every wanting to be a serious Java programmer. I think that programmers tend to be programmers, and the rigosity level that they program at is more based on the individual than the language that they choose to code in. > that he was writing a submission for the Obfuscated Perl Contest, but > unfortunately there are many Perl programmers who emulate this "cool" > style.) Obfuscated programming can be done in Java and C++ too, but the > implicit OO structure of these languages discourages it. ? who emulates this "cool" style for production code? I don't know anyone that does. Most, if not all, of the programmers that participate in obsfu or golf contests also maintain very readable code. I find that the programmers who are exceptional at obsfu are also exceptional at readable code. > > Perl uses some non-standard OOP features that make it a bit awkward for OOP, > like being able to dynamically change your superclass at runtime and failing > to implicitly call a superclass's constructor. Some might argue that these > are improvements over Java and C++, but they are still non-standard and can > induce confusion. Python and Ruby are superior to Perl as object-oriented > languages since they were originally designed as OO languages rather than > Bourne shell / awk / C derivatives as Perl was. Ruby makes funny convolutions for its users to be able to access some aspects (see its handling of regexs) in a non OO way. Fancy that. Perl6 will be OO from the base up, in a similar way to Python. Out of curiosity, I wonder what you or anyone specifically likes (besides the whitespace ;-) about Python's handling of OO style? > > This is a religious issue, and everyone has a different point of view. My > utilitarian position is that Perl is just another tool in the programmer's > toolbox. It has strengths and weaknesses that make it appropriate for some > situations and not appropriate for others. Even a lame platform like VB on > Windows has its uses. Windows/VB may have its uses, but not for everyone. ;-) Have fun, -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From randall_burns at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 00:00:57 2001 From: randall_burns at hotmail.com (Randall Burns) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) Message-ID: > > structure things (as with OOP) such that perl does scale well... I would tend to agree. There are a lot of Perl folks that aren't familiar with these techniques. IMHO the biggest single weakness of Perl is that Perl's object oriented syntax is obscure. If you know what you are doing, you can probably do it with Perl, but Perl doesn't really hold your hand in this regard like some languages do. IMHO what this means, is that Perl requires _more_ training/discipline to do good object oriented code than Smalltalk--but also provides some flexibility when used carefully by folks that know what they are doing. >Much as I like Perl, weakly-typed, free-form languages like Perl are >not >as appropriate for large projects as C++ and Java are. Personally, I'd suggest Perl or a similar weakly typed language for projects up to 5 or so _quality_ folks. The Self project at MIT had some good research on why weakly typed languages help programmer productivity and enable more to be done with a smaller team. I honestly don't think that Java or C++ is really "the answer" for these bigger projects. My own favorite would probably be Mozart-Oz---a language which in some respects is even more powerful than Perl(Mozart-Oz handles concurrency issues Perl was never intended to handle). Mozart-Oz has a cleaner object oriented syntax from what I can see than Perl(though I don't think they they'd really handled all the subtle issues of object access in a large team that C++, Java and now C# have). >More importantly, C++ and Java programmers tend to be more rigorous >than >Perl programmers. I honestly think that is bullshit. There _is_ a bigger pool of C++/Java talent-much of it cheap H1-B labor from India that our government was so kind to allow corporate elites to bring over to put American technical talent "in its place". I know Perl folks that know damned well how to use the "rigorous" techniques that Java/C++ folks use. Unfortunately, I know a lot of Java types that just don't get languages like Perl--or understand that there are places where languages like Java just fall apart(i.e. in dealing with concurrency issues Java gets its ass whipped by Mozart-Oz). I used to consult at HP (see resume at www.outlander.com). One of HP's major e-commerce pages was done in Perl by a team that included some friends of mine. Because the Java folks "knew" how bad Perl was. The Java folks couldn't rewrite the original web page in the same time the Perl folks had _even with the original page as a spec_. The big team space is an area where there are quite a few project failures-which make it hard to compare to the kinds of areas where Perl shines. >Obfuscated programming can be done in Java and C++ too, but the >implicit OO structure of these languages discourages it. Obfuscated programming can be done in _any_ language that is at all rich in features. Folks that really know Java libraries can create some real messes. >Perl uses some non-standard OOP features that make it a bit awkward >for >OOP, like being able to dynamically change your superclass at runtime and >failing to implicitly call a superclass's constructor. I'd say Perl is kind of like a chain saw-a powerful tool in the right hands-and for the right job--and dangerous in the hands of a novice that lacks proper supervision. Personally, I think it will be interesting to watch how Perl and the various experimental languages do as Microsoft's .Net initiative matures. The nature of the Java run time has shut out languages like Smalltalk and Perl--this won't be the case in the .Net world. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Sat Aug 11 19:24:38 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <20010811152831.E4207@hobart.helvella.org> References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <20010811152831.E4207@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: <20010811172438.A8153@hobart.helvella.org> On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:28:31PM -0700, Colin Meyer wrote: > > btw, Perl6 will support (if I understand correctly) data containers with > strong types. For example, > > my int $x; # $x can only store ints > my dog $spot; # $spot can only hold objects of class dog er, this will probably actually read like this (using variable properties): my $x is int; my $spot is dog; > > This sort of functionality can be accomplished with Perl5, through OO > interfaces, or tieing. -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From damian at mail.csse.monash.edu.au Sat Aug 11 19:34:51 2001 From: damian at mail.csse.monash.edu.au (Damian Conway) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <20010811152831.E4207@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: <200108120034.KAA05942@indy05.csse.monash.edu.au> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:28:31PM -0700, Colin Meyer wrote: > > > > btw, Perl6 will support (if I understand correctly) data containers with > > strong types. For example, > > > > my int $x; # $x can only store ints > > my dog $spot; # $spot can only hold objects of class dog > > er, this will probably actually read like this (using variable properties): > > my $x is int; > my $spot is dog; Err, I don't think so. The: my INT $x; # $x can only store integers my dog $spot; # $spot can only hold references to objects of class dog # or its subclasses syntax is far more likely. Damian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From andrew at sweger.net Mon Aug 13 02:11:30 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Why Perl Advocacy Is A Bad Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Andrew Sweger wrote: > I do sympathize with Dave Cross' (of London.pm) essay to keep the > newbies and wannabies out. For those that asked (and those that didn't), here's Dave's talk on advocacy: http://www.dave.org.uk/talks/advocacy.html But don't take it too seriously. ;) -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From dpommert at bestnet.com Mon Aug 13 10:49:49 2001 From: dpommert at bestnet.com (Daniel Pommert) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) Message-ID: <8EC7FE6B4722D411848B00A0C9E11CBD8B9272@EXCH02> As a testimonial, I would like to put in that in 20 months I was able to write over 70,000 lines of debugged, OO Perl (20,000 lines if you don't count comments, blanks, { } lines). If I had written this in C++ I would have had to write at least 3 times as many lines of code to get the same job done. Sure, it would have run a little faster, but we were under a time crunch to get the code written; speed was secondary. I interfaced with 3 other programmers. I was able to define the object interfaces and, so, specify that any Perl object that supported a specific set of required methods would be compatible with the system. In fact, it was the largest, most creative piece of code that I have ever written. I know that my experience would have been a lot more filled with memories of grief if I had written it in C++. My experience. Your milage may vary... -- Daniel Pommert - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From brian at tangent.org Mon Aug 13 12:37:05 2001 From: brian at tangent.org (Brian Aker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <87wv4ajw1r.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org> Ken McGlothlen wrote: > | Much as I like Perl, weakly-typed, free-form languages like Perl are not as > | appropriate for large projects as C++ and Java are. Since Perl doesn't have > | any way of enforcing compliance with subroutine interfaces for OO calls, it > | can be difficult to track down bugs in large systems. It's easy to say that > | programmers shouldn't create bugs, but using a strongly-typed language can > | produce a better product. Its funny to read this sort of thing because its the same thing that was said about Java when it first came out (more about its memory management though). Fact is, you can build very large applications in high level languages normally with less code and in less time. Speed (unless you use very poorly written algorithms, (which are normally the heart of all optimization issues)) is a minor issue that can be worked out with hardware. Hardware is cheaper then developer's time. A good design can always be broken down into smaller pieces. Through smaller pieces you can normally track down your problems. The most important thing to do while programming is build tests for each of your modules (and keep them up to date!). This will simplify many of your problems. If you use h2xs to setup your module tree, perl makes it very easy to test large projects. BTW with weakly type languages that have garbage collection (I would have been a bigger fan of Java if it had been weakly typed) you have a benefit over C++ or C in that you aren't having to constantly look for buffer overflows. This takes out a lot of your development time. Big projects like Apache, normally have to develop their own garbage collection systems (look at how "pools" work in Apache for an example). > | More importantly, C++ and Java programmers tend to be more rigorous than > | Perl programmers. Damian's talk is a good illustration of some of the > | warped programming styles that Perl can seduce programmers into. I have seen a calendar widget in Java that was made up of 60 classes! I have seen some code that was done to produce Applets that was impossible to follow (the guy cut every corner possible to make the thing fast enough to run on the average browser, and to be small enough to download). Any language can be butchered, and to be honest there is no "right" way of programming. You can pick standards (which is a good idea for any group of programmers working together) but that is about it. When I see unless(x) it takes my brain to parse this a bit longer then if(!x). Why? Because perl is far from my first language and I am just not accustom to it (and unless(!x) just sends me for a loop. I have been using Perl for around 10 years at this point, but I have been using languages like C for a bit longer. Not everyone speaks english the same way and not everyone's brains are wired to write code exactly the same way. > Back when I was a Pascal fan (1981-6), I used to say the same sort of thing > about C programmers. Pascal was a nice, high-level, strongly typed language, > whereas C (at the time, K&R C---ANSI C was on the far horizon) allowed you to > break typing, screw with function calls, etc., etc., etc. Moreover, most of > the C code I'd seen to date was obscure---I would even say "badly written" from > a maintenance viewpoint, whereas my Pascal programs were graceful, well written > and comprehensible. No way to cast either so writing device drivers was a real pain in the ass :) For historical reference: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/bwk-on-pascal.html > I mentioned this to my teacher one day, and he said, "It's time to let you in > on an old adage: `You can write FORTRAN in any language.'" I really miss arithmetic ifs. Its the one thing that languages just never picked up on after Fortran. > Once I did get hold of my own Unix account, though, and got past the > obscureness of the commands (RENAME became mv, COPY became cp, HELP became man, That is funny, since I wrote an entire Borne shell replacement in assembly because I hated VMS so much. > Now Perl is object-oriented. That's a tough thing to bolt onto a procedural > language. The only *native* object-oriented language I've seen that did it > disturbingly low-level. But I wouldn't use C++ for those, either. The one How close is gtk to being exactly this? I have used Glade under Linux to create front ends quickly. I am told that gtk works fine under Windows. Anyone have any experience with windows and gtk? > thing I really wish Perl had going for it is a really good cross-platform GUI > I dunno. VB has become sort of the modern-day COBOL. :) I would disagree. Java is modern day COBOL. Very easy language that you can take bad programmers and throw them at it. Applets were a failure, servlets have sort of taken off(even though I am not to sure of this, I have yet to find a big shop that uses them (well there was HomeGrocier)... but where I have seen it most frequently used in the work place is a a replacement for doing COBOL in mainframe environments. Right there Java has pretty much taken the scene from COBOL. The moment I realized this I also lost all interest in Java :) And for large projects I have done over 70K line applications in perl, with no problems(with groups of developers!). The real chore was to get an agreement from developers on coding practices, get it written down, and spanking folks that don't follow it. -Brian -- _______________________________________________________ Brian Aker, brian@tangent.org Slashdot Senior Developer Seattle, Washington http://tangent.org/~brian/ http://slashdot.org/ _______________________________________________________ You can't grep a dead tree. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From binde at terindell.com Mon Aug 13 13:40:32 2001 From: binde at terindell.com (Melissa D. Binde) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org>; from brian@tangent.org on Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:37:05AM -0700 References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <87wv4ajw1r.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org> Message-ID: <20010813144032.E30757@terindell.com> Twas brillig, on Mon Aug 13 at 10:37:05 AM, and Brian Aker burbled: > Speed (unless you use very poorly written algorithms, (which are > normally the > heart of all optimization issues)) is a minor issue that can be worked > out > with hardware. Hardware is cheaper then developer's time. As with all truisms, though, this fails at a point, and it's fully possible to do things like outpace the available hardware and have severe problems with your (poorly-optimized) application. It's important to not use that statement to justify "developers should never have to write good code or optimize it, because hardware is always cheaper than their time." -M. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Mon Aug 13 16:22:01 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org> References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <87wv4ajw1r.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org> Message-ID: <87lmknhczq.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Brian Aker writes: | Ken McGlothlen wrote: | > | Much as I like Perl, weakly-typed, free-form languages like Perl are not | > | as appropriate for large projects as C++ and Java are. Since Perl | > | doesn't have any way of enforcing compliance with subroutine interfaces | > | for OO calls, it can be difficult to track down bugs in large systems. | > | It's easy to say that programmers shouldn't create bugs, but using a | > | strongly-typed language can produce a better product. For the record, I didn't write that; I *quoted* it. I was arguing against that point of view. | I really miss arithmetic ifs. Its the one thing that languages just never | picked up on after Fortran. Uh . . . well, the cmp and <=> operators in Perl do that, in a certain sense, and you can simulate it either with if( $a == 0 ) { do_zero_case; } elsif( $a < 0 ) { do_neg_case; } else { do_pos_case; } or do_case( $a, $a <=> 0 ) or $b = ($a == 0 ? do_zero_case : ($a < 0 ? do_neg_case : do_pos_case)); I don't really miss arithmetic-if any more than I do gotos. | That is funny, since I wrote an entire Borne shell replacement in assembly | because I hated VMS so much. (* giggle *) Yeah, I can see that. All depends on what you were raised with, I guess. Before VMS, I was forced to use HP MPE III---so VMS made me very happy on first encounter. :) | How close is gtk to being exactly this? I don't know. I should look into that more. | I would disagree. Java is modern day COBOL. Very easy language that you can | take bad programmers and throw them at it. I suppose. I actually kind of liked Java when it first came out, because it had so many strengths compared to C++. Unfortunately, Sun refused to take responsibility for porting it, but wouldn't relinquish control, so I eventually lost interest in it as a viable language. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Mon Aug 13 16:24:06 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: UW Software Engineer Gig Message-ID: <20010813142406.A18491@timji.consultix.wa.com> Hello! We have a position open in my team that requires a lot of experience programming with Perl. The full description of the position can be found here: http://www.washington.edu/admin/employment/2001archive/07-2001archive/PC12617.html Here's a description tailored to the points found at: http://www.zipcon.net/spug/#Jobs Required skill-set ------------------ Object Oriented Perl. (For some reason, the job description doesn't say anything about Perl but most of the software we write and support is written in Perl). Java, Java Servlets, Java Server Pages. Experience with Object Oriented Analysis and Design (OOAD). (Listed as desirable in the job description). Familiarity with network monitoring and management. Type of position ---------------- This is a permanent position. Placement --------- Placement with us directly (vs. via a recruiter) is preferred. Physical location ----------------- 4545 15th Avenue NE Our building is kitty corner from the Burke Museum. Telecommuting is currently not a possibility. Product ------- The Networks and Distributed Computing (NDC) group within the University of Washington's Computing and Communications department designs, deploys, and supports networks for: * The University of Washington (http://www.washington.edu/) and related hospitals. * The UW Physicians Network (http://uwphysicians.org/) * The Pacific Northwest Gigapop (http://www.pnw-gigapop.net/). (One of the first Internet 2 sites). and * The K20 Network (http://www.wa.gov/dis/k20/) NDC is also charged with design and support of UW's network computing infrastructure. This includes computer maintenance, desktop computing technologies, messaging and multimedia tools, scalable distributed systems, and distributed system security. My team develops tools and systems that the Network Engineers and Network Operations Center use to monitor and manage the network. Currently our team does not offer any products or services to the larger Internet community. We do, however, keep our eye out for market opportunities (commercial, open source, or otherwise) that our software could potentially fill; the imap (http://www.imap.org) and pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/) developers are part of another team in NDC, for example. Sean J. Vaughan UW phone: 206 221 3801 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Mon Aug 13 16:24:18 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <20010813144032.E30757@terindell.com> References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <87wv4ajw1r.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org> <20010813144032.E30757@terindell.com> Message-ID: <87hevbhcvx.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> "Melissa D. Binde" writes: | It's important to not use that statement to justify "developers should never | have to write good code or optimize it, because hardware is always cheaper | than their time." It bears pointing out that ninety percent of speed issues aren't issues of interpreted vs compiled, nor is it compiler optimization or things like that. It's just badly swotted-up code. I can't tell you how many times I've doubled the speed of someone else's program just by moving crap out of a loop that didn't have to be in there. :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From bill at celestial.com Mon Aug 13 18:28:46 2001 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <87hevbhcvx.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com>; from mcglk@artlogix.com on Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 02:24:18PM -0700 References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <87wv4ajw1r.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org> <20010813144032.E30757@terindell.com> <87hevbhcvx.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: <20010813162846.A30503@barryg.mi.celestial.com> On Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 02:24:18PM -0700, Ken McGlothlen wrote: >"Melissa D. Binde" writes: > >| It's important to not use that statement to justify "developers should never >| have to write good code or optimize it, because hardware is always cheaper >| than their time." > >It bears pointing out that ninety percent of speed issues aren't issues of >interpreted vs compiled, nor is it compiler optimization or things like that. >It's just badly swotted-up code. I can't tell you how many times I've doubled >the speed of someone else's program just by moving crap out of a loop that >didn't have to be in there. :) The first programming job I ever did was on a Bendix G-20 mainframe in FORTRAN involved lots of fresnel functions. I cut the run time from 20 minutes down to under 2 by replacing one statement in a subroutine that was executed 20,000 times per run where the engineer (I'm a scientist, not a programmer), calculated the square root of PI/2 each time the subroutine was called. I just put it in common, and calculated it once in the main program before starting the loop. Of course compiler technology has progressed a bit since the Bendix Mishawaka (sp?) FORTRAN of 1966, but the principle's the same. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ DOS: n., A small annoying boot virus that causes random spontaneous system crashes, usually just before saving a massive project. Easily cured by UNIX. See also MS-DOS, IBM-DOS, DR-DOS. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Mon Aug 13 19:24:28 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <20010813162846.A30503@barryg.mi.celestial.com> References: <000c01c12278$435728d0$2e88ddd1@aciwin> <87wv4ajw1r.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <3B781041.306131A9@tangent.org> <20010813144032.E30757@terindell.com> <87hevbhcvx.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <20010813162846.A30503@barryg.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <87g0avfpz7.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Bill Campbell writes: | [...] I cut the run time from 20 minutes down to under 2 by replacing one | statement in a subroutine that was executed 20,000 times per run where the | engineer (I'm a scientist, not a programmer), calculated the square root of | PI/2 each time the subroutine was called. [...] Of course compiler | technology has progressed a bit since the Bendix Mishawaka (sp?) FORTRAN of | 1966, but the principle's the same. Absolutely. The worst-case scenario I ever ran into was with a program (in C) that crunched a lot of statistics. It would take around three days to run with a 4,000,000 record dataset, and was about 25K lines long. One day, testing a revision I'd done elsewhere in the code, I started noticing a curious pattern: O(n^2). So I grepped the source code for "sort," out of curiosity, and discovered the lines: int sortdata { # look up quicksort and replace when i have time -gb [... code for bubblesort ...] } Oh, how I cackled with glee. :) Not only could I improve the program, but the local C library had a qsort routine supplied already. Some judicious whacking followed by a single call, and the same 4,000,000 records were being done in less than half an hour. They thought I'd broken it. In fact, *insisted* that I broke it. Showing them identical results didn't convince them. The original programmer, they insisted, was brilliant, and I couldn't have improved it *that* much (in fact, he was an awful programmer, and I was constantly fixing issues). I showed them the original code, with the comment, but even that wasn't convincing enough. Eventually, I gave up, and said that I'd restore it, so I did. Later on, I talked them into an insertion sort (they understood that), but I just couldn't get them to go for the quicksort. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From kevin at economyart.com Mon Aug 13 20:14:19 2001 From: kevin at economyart.com (Kevin Watt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <87g0avfpz7.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: Wow - that amazes me. I'm not sure if I could stay at a place that insisted in not believing in a solution despite proof of its effectiveness. Its funny how employees can win over a team despite not knowing what they are talking about... Its almost as if communication skills and programming ones are separate? Though I think the best among programmers are good communicators - that's why I love perl folk. Ciao, Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Ken McGlothlen Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 5:24 PM To: spug-list@pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) Bill Campbell writes: | [...] I cut the run time from 20 minutes down to under 2 by replacing one | statement in a subroutine that was executed 20,000 times per run where the | engineer (I'm a scientist, not a programmer), calculated the square root of | PI/2 each time the subroutine was called. [...] Of course compiler | technology has progressed a bit since the Bendix Mishawaka (sp?) FORTRAN of | 1966, but the principle's the same. Absolutely. The worst-case scenario I ever ran into was with a program (in C) that crunched a lot of statistics. It would take around three days to run with a 4,000,000 record dataset, and was about 25K lines long. One day, testing a revision I'd done elsewhere in the code, I started noticing a curious pattern: O(n^2). So I grepped the source code for "sort," out of curiosity, and discovered the lines: int sortdata { # look up quicksort and replace when i have time -gb [... code for bubblesort ...] } Oh, how I cackled with glee. :) Not only could I improve the program, but the local C library had a qsort routine supplied already. Some judicious whacking followed by a single call, and the same 4,000,000 records were being done in less than half an hour. They thought I'd broken it. In fact, *insisted* that I broke it. Showing them identical results didn't convince them. The original programmer, they insisted, was brilliant, and I couldn't have improved it *that* much (in fact, he was an awful programmer, and I was constantly fixing issues). I showed them the original code, with the comment, but even that wasn't convincing enough. Eventually, I gave up, and said that I'd restore it, so I did. Later on, I talked them into an insertion sort (they understood that), but I just couldn't get them to go for the quicksort. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From MichaelRUnningWolf at att.net Mon Aug 13 20:29:18 2001 From: MichaelRUnningWolf at att.net (MichaelRUnningWolf@att.net) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: ... & finding Perl work Message-ID: <20010814012919.ZSEI3707.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Count me in, too!!! As a recent arrival into the northwest, I'm looking for opportunities to creatively apply my Perl skills to an intersting problem. I understand that there were smileys in the original post, but if anyone's interested in joining forces to make a proposal, please let me know. I'll throw my hat into the ring to focus such an effort. Michael Wolf spug-list newbie Perl programmer, trainer, and evangelist-becoming > > Maybe all of us unemployed Perl programmers should just get together > > and start our own company. Anyone got an extra business model laying > > around? :) > > good idea! count me in! =) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From bill at celestial.com Mon Aug 13 20:41:30 2001 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: ; from kevin@economyart.com on Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 06:14:19PM -0700 References: <87g0avfpz7.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: <20010813184130.B32549@barryg.mi.celestial.com> On Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 06:14:19PM -0700, Kevin Watt wrote: >Wow - that amazes me. > >I'm not sure if I could stay at a place that insisted in not believing in a >solution despite proof of its effectiveness. Try convincing the local Community Colleges to use Linux instead of wasting money on the Windows virus.... Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.'' -- Frederick Douglass. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Mon Aug 13 21:05:52 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <873d6vfla7.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> "Kevin Watt" writes: | I'm not sure if I could stay at a place that insisted in not believing in a | solution despite proof of its effectiveness. | | Its funny how employees can win over a team despite not knowing what they | are talking about... | | Its almost as if communication skills and programming ones are separate? Maybe. I suspect it's more that programming and politics are separate skills (though I'm sure communication is part of the broader picture). It's one of the reasons I've developed quite a distaste about working for other people these days. Too often, I'm seen perfectly good ideas (yes, sometimes my own, but not always) shot down over politics or stupidity. I don't mind someone shooting down something I say when I'm actually *wrong*, but far too often, potshots are being delivered by people that don't know what they're talking about, and unwilling to think it through. It made me crazy until I finally learned to stop caring about what I was doing---and that doesn't make for very good projects, IMHO. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From MichaelRUnningWolf at att.net Mon Aug 13 21:28:32 2001 From: MichaelRUnningWolf at att.net (MichaelRUnningWolf@att.net) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) Message-ID: <20010814022833.VWUU8490.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Here, here... Agreed: My personal-best is a 10X improvement within the first 2 hours on a new job (good karma points). [[I rewrote back-ticks in a shell script, eliminating *lots* of fork/exec.]] It was a handy refactoring to have in my bag of (language-independant) tools. Michael Wolf > "Melissa D. Binde" writes: > > | It's important to not use that statement to justify "developers should never > | have to write good code or optimize it, because hardware is always cheaper > | than their time." > > It bears pointing out that ninety percent of speed issues aren't issues of > interpreted vs compiled, nor is it compiler optimization or things like that. > It's just badly swotted-up code. I can't tell you how many times I've doubled > the speed of someone else's program just by moving crap out of a loop that > didn't have to be in there. :) > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From asimjalis at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 22:45:11 2001 From: asimjalis at yahoo.com (Asim Jalis) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <873d6vfla7.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: <20010814034511.43156.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ken McGlothlen wrote: > Maybe. I suspect it's more that programming > and politics are separate skills (though I'm > sure communication is part of the broader > picture). It's one of the reasons I've > developed quite a distaste about working for > other people these days. This has quite possibly been one of the most interesting threads on this list. Related to this: Is there a market for Perl shareware? Has anyone written or tried to sell Perl software independently? Any ideas for application areas? Asim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From Richard.Anderson at raycosoft.com Tue Aug 14 01:17:24 2001 From: Richard.Anderson at raycosoft.com (Richard Anderson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Disillusioned Programmers (Was: Does Perl Scale? References: <873d6vfla7.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: <023001c12488$ca335b00$2e88ddd1@aciwin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken McGlothlen" > Maybe. I suspect it's more that programming and politics are separate skills > (though I'm sure communication is part of the broader picture). It's one of > the reasons I've developed quite a distaste about working for other people > these days. Too often, I'm seen perfectly good ideas (yes, sometimes my own, > but not always) shot down over politics or stupidity. I don't mind someone > shooting down something I say when I'm actually *wrong*, but far too often, > potshots are being delivered by people that don't know what they're talking > about, and unwilling to think it through. It made me crazy until I finally > learned to stop caring about what I was doing---and that doesn't make for very > good projects, IMHO. > "Learning to stop caring about what I was doing" seems like a professional cop-out to me. I've worked with some ignorant people and (more frustrating) some fairly intelligent people who acted stupidly. I try to focus on: 1. Since it's the client's/management's money, it is their priviledge to waste it if they want to. 2. As long as I am engaged in activities that enhance my career and keep management happy, I'm happy. 3. If the company's checks aren't bouncing and I am being treated reasonably, I feel obligated do do my best as a professional. Having seen some large projects and organizations crash and burn, I never get too concerned about other people's technical errors. I see my role as providing entertainment for management. Few managers like working with subordinates that are smarter than they are and make a point of reminding them of it. Cheers, Richard - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 14 02:08:22 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: He's dead, Jim. Message-ID: On the subject of job hunting as a SPUG topic: leary@nwlink.com mentioned inviting hiring managers but didn't say to what end. What would they come to tell us (I ask because the small handful of hiring managers subscribed to the list (who wish they were programmers again, http://www.engelke.com/charles/TPC5/ ) haven't spoken up as far as I'm aware)? What do we have to offer to make it worth their time? Maybe we could parade prospective applicants on an auction block. :) "Our next coder up for bid has a little over two years experience with Perl and can tell the difference between an array and a list. We'll start the bidding at $28k..." (What are you gasping at? That's fair.) Kevin Watt mentioned the co-ops. This is a good example of ESR's ex-corporation talk at the conference. It's a powerful way to increase the value of transactions and networking, in a business sense. Ebay was the example ESR used where the individual buyers and sellers are the external agents conducting the transactions (Ebay's a catalyst?). But what I've noticed about these development co-ops is a lack of sufficient interest and/or too much variation in the interfaces involved (making the "cost" of entry just high enough to discourage the critical interest needed). I'm not saying it's a bad idea or wrong. It's the right idea. It just needs to grow some more. Perhaps there's enough free talent floating around now to put it over the top. dancerboy mentions creating a new company formed from all this "free" talent. leary chimes in with the MLM business model. We could start producing open source infomercials. "You give a copy of the source to two friends. And then they give the source to two friends, and they give it to two friends, ..." Okay, maybe not. So, now we have a new company formed from all these brilliant people that couldn't manage to keep their jobs (JUST KIDDING!). But what are you going to build? Do we really need yet another technology startup? It's all been done to death. The Internet is dead, Jim. There isn't much more that can be done with computers other than to put fancy skins on them or other stylistic toys. This is why folks like Apple and Sony do so well. A good friend pointed out that this glitzifying marks the end of a product's life cycle. So, now you've changed the world by bringing everyone closer together with this really kick ass network and all the marketing and content media people have turned it into a digital sewer. What do you do? What _do_ you do? I assume you go to the one place where the telecommunications, product marketers, and big media aren't looking. Something to think about at least. Back to the subject. What do you want out of a job hunting SPUG session? How to write a resume? Short talks on people's experience moving from job to job? How about having one or two of our more experienced consultants talk about how a regular JAPH can get in on the game (we won't crowd you out, promise). As another good friend said, it's all about networking and who you know. As members of SPUG, you are already aligned with some of the most powerful forces this side of the great black hole. We had only just had the first ever SPUG meeting (almost 3.5 years ago) and already had Larry Wall scheduled as a guest speaker. If that's not enough to convince you, we are also aligned with the most powerful forces from the other side of the black hole (interpret that as you wish). Damian Conway keeps coming back to share stories and adventures from afar. So, let's make the most of it. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From andy at sweger.net Tue Aug 14 02:14:01 2001 From: andy at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Slow list Message-ID: Why does it seem to take so long for posting to show up on the list? It always seems to take between 30 and 60 minutes (approx.) for postings to arrive. A sampling of messages suggests that gocho (the Perl Mongers outgoing mail server) seems to take its sweet time delivering messages. Sorry, I'm spoiled rotten by all this technology. Gratify me, now! -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 14 02:26:27 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Disillusioned Programmers (Was: Does Perl Scale? In-Reply-To: <023001c12488$ca335b00$2e88ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: I think both perspectives are valid. Richard has developed a professional stance that allows him to successfully manage his relationship with the employer. Others, more naive, are suckered into believing there are ideals behind a business plan that go beyond money and learn the hard way. IMO, one of the most important tasks of the technology manager is to make sure the talent continues to think they are fighting the good fight (and never hear a word about schedules or time estimates) and to make sure that upper management thinks that the engineering team is on schedule as per specifications (and never hear about Quake tournaments). It's damn hard work pulling that off. I haven't seen it done in good balance. I've seen people who came at it from the management side and watched all the best people leave. And I've seen people who came at it from the technology side (tried it myself once) and didn't quite manage to send the right messages upward. On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Richard Anderson wrote: > "Learning to stop caring about what I was doing" seems like a professional > cop-out to me. I've worked with some ignorant people and (more frustrating) > some fairly intelligent people who acted stupidly. I try to focus on: > <...snip...> -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From kevin at economyart.com Tue Aug 14 02:38:25 2001 From: kevin at economyart.com (Kevin Watt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: He's dead, Jim. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andrew Sweger Said: >There isn't much more that can be done >with computers other than to put fancy skins on them or other stylistic >toys. I totally disagree with this. Most of the start ups that failed were huge, ugly slow colossal beasts, even if they were smaller than their competitors. Many successful sites on the web are made of teams of 2 or 3 people, or at least less than 20. That is all that advertising revenue or small subscription costs can support. I think there are still MANY ideas out there, we just have to be creative enough to find them. We're programmers - where's the creativity? Solving problems is what we do, and that takes creativity. I'd actually be willing to bet that most people have a dream-egg of their own that if they got enough time to work on they would love to turn into a full-time project. Hmm? Then again, I'm an optimist and an entrepreneur. Ciao, Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-spug-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-spug-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Andrew Sweger Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 12:08 AM To: Seattle Perl Users Group Subject: SPUG: He's dead, Jim. On the subject of job hunting as a SPUG topic: leary@nwlink.com mentioned inviting hiring managers but didn't say to what end. What would they come to tell us (I ask because the small handful of hiring managers subscribed to the list (who wish they were programmers again, http://www.engelke.com/charles/TPC5/ ) haven't spoken up as far as I'm aware)? What do we have to offer to make it worth their time? Maybe we could parade prospective applicants on an auction block. :) "Our next coder up for bid has a little over two years experience with Perl and can tell the difference between an array and a list. We'll start the bidding at $28k..." (What are you gasping at? That's fair.) Kevin Watt mentioned the co-ops. This is a good example of ESR's ex-corporation talk at the conference. It's a powerful way to increase the value of transactions and networking, in a business sense. Ebay was the example ESR used where the individual buyers and sellers are the external agents conducting the transactions (Ebay's a catalyst?). But what I've noticed about these development co-ops is a lack of sufficient interest and/or too much variation in the interfaces involved (making the "cost" of entry just high enough to discourage the critical interest needed). I'm not saying it's a bad idea or wrong. It's the right idea. It just needs to grow some more. Perhaps there's enough free talent floating around now to put it over the top. dancerboy mentions creating a new company formed from all this "free" talent. leary chimes in with the MLM business model. We could start producing open source infomercials. "You give a copy of the source to two friends. And then they give the source to two friends, and they give it to two friends, ..." Okay, maybe not. So, now we have a new company formed from all these brilliant people that couldn't manage to keep their jobs (JUST KIDDING!). But what are you going to build? Do we really need yet another technology startup? It's all been done to death. The Internet is dead, Jim. There isn't much more that can be done with computers other than to put fancy skins on them or other stylistic toys. This is why folks like Apple and Sony do so well. A good friend pointed out that this glitzifying marks the end of a product's life cycle. So, now you've changed the world by bringing everyone closer together with this really kick ass network and all the marketing and content media people have turned it into a digital sewer. What do you do? What _do_ you do? I assume you go to the one place where the telecommunications, product marketers, and big media aren't looking. Something to think about at least. Back to the subject. What do you want out of a job hunting SPUG session? How to write a resume? Short talks on people's experience moving from job to job? How about having one or two of our more experienced consultants talk about how a regular JAPH can get in on the game (we won't crowd you out, promise). As another good friend said, it's all about networking and who you know. As members of SPUG, you are already aligned with some of the most powerful forces this side of the great black hole. We had only just had the first ever SPUG meeting (almost 3.5 years ago) and already had Larry Wall scheduled as a guest speaker. If that's not enough to convince you, we are also aligned with the most powerful forces from the other side of the black hole (interpret that as you wish). Damian Conway keeps coming back to share stories and adventures from afar. So, let's make the most of it. -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Tue Aug 14 06:55:34 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: Disillusioned Programmers (Was: Does Perl Scale? In-Reply-To: <023001c12488$ca335b00$2e88ddd1@aciwin> References: <873d6vfla7.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <023001c12488$ca335b00$2e88ddd1@aciwin> Message-ID: <87k806etzd.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> "Richard Anderson" writes: | "Learning to stop caring about what I was doing" seems like a professional | cop-out to me. Not at all. It's a coping strategy. What I mean is that if I get emotionally invested in the project, it becomes more difficult for me to go along with and support bad management decisions. It doesn't mean that I become any less professional---it just means that I don't put *emotional* energy into the project, is all. | Few managers like working with subordinates that are smarter than they are | and make a point of reminding them of it. Yep. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Tue Aug 14 06:59:11 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <20010814034511.43156.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010814034511.43156.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87g0auettc.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> | Related to this: Is there a market for Perl shareware? Possibly. I haven't seen much of it, that's for sure. I suspect it's because it's too easy to write applications in Perl most of the time. But large projects might well find a niche for this. | Any ideas for application areas? Telephony. E-commerce modules (like a module that just handles the credit-card side of stuff, so you could plug it into a custom storefront). Project- management software. There's stuff out there already for some of this, but currently, it's pretty lame. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Tue Aug 14 07:10:00 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: He's dead, Jim. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <874rraetbb.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> "Kevin Watt" writes: | Many successful sites on the web are made of teams of 2 or 3 people, or at | least less than 20. That is all that advertising revenue or small | subscription costs can support. Actually, advertising revenue these days can't usually support one person. It's got to be a subscription-based or a product-based model for the most part. | I think there are still MANY ideas out there, we just have to be creative | enough to find them. We're programmers - where's the creativity? Heh. Most people who are in a position to provide funding don't want creativity. That's the irony of venture capital. VCs want slaves in pursuit of very simple ideas, and if they aren't creative themselves, few will see the value in really creative ideas. Which is why I'm funding my startup game company out of pocket. I don't recommend it to everyone, though---it's scary and stressful. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From Showell30 at aol.com Tue Aug 14 09:27:58 2001 From: Showell30 at aol.com (Showell30@aol.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: True SPUGster networking? Message-ID: <26.19c4cd9b.28aa8f6e@aol.com> I humbly propose that the best speaker for the SPUG hiring meeting is no speaker. The recent discussions on this list demonstrate that SPUGsters can generate and refine ideas in a fruitful and civil manner. So, a meeting that is just talking among SPUGsters could really inspire job seekers (and job holders too). On the other hand, the discussions on this list tend to get too abstract. Job seekers need to talk about specific things they want to do in Perl. Job holders should talk about specific things they are doing in Perl. Actually, I don't really care whether they are doing things in Perl (others on list might be offended, but good discussions can be taken offline after the first couple posts), but it is important to BE SPECIFIC. What are people working on in their down time? Right now, I am taking a program that I had written in Perl to post pictures in web, and I'm rewriting it in Python (blasphemy). I know that there are lots of existing solutions on the web for picture posting, but they have shortcomings and drawbacks. I had resisted Python for a long time, but after using it, I have to admit that I'm no so quick to defend all of Perl's quirks. Overall trends that I would like to see people talk about are the following: 1) How can Perl be used for consumer video applications? 2) How can Perl community enable small businesses to really use technology well? Finally, I think we should continue the discussion about how to make money in Perl when so much good code is free. It's easy to dismiss this generally good thing when you're still working, but when you're jobseeking, it can be really frustrating that good ideas don't necessarily equate to revenue or paying your bills. I am convinced that if you want to make money in Perl on your own, you have to write a book. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20010814/5cb5abda/attachment.htm From jay at Scherrer.com Tue Aug 14 14:10:30 2001 From: jay at Scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl: debuging and maintenance Message-ID: <3B7977A5.3B95E226@scherrer.com> Although I'm not experienced enough to write "Obfuscated Perl", I'm might forget what I wrote. I think it would be very helpful to have a talk on the maintenance of large projects. I was the one asked about bringing separate files into the main Perl program. And so far it has helped me a lot. I normally write gui oriented Perl by using the Tk module. I hope to be releasing a major project by October. In this project I use the Perl::Tk module and at least fifty sub-routines (child widows). Keeping the large subs separate from the main helps not only in maintenance but also in code reuse and I can keep the main very manageable. At one of the meetings I overheard Tim talking about the early Perl only using the .pl to stand for Perl libraries. And it makes very good sense. My early experience with C does just about the same. Breaking the script into manageable pieces helps me debug and maintain the project very easily. Another question: Can I list all of my .pl's into a pm? For instance, can I : #!/usr/local/bin/perl -w # main Perl use Tk; require 'library_list.pm'; #do some stuff in Perl library_list.pm require 'sub1.pl'; require 'sub2.pl'; require 'sub3.pl'; # etc... etc. Instead of: #!/usr/local/bin/perl -w #main Perl use Tk; require 'sub1.pl'; require 'sub2.pl'; require 'sub3.pl'; #and so on My greenness shines, Jay - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From Showell30 at aol.com Tue Aug 14 17:36:04 2001 From: Showell30 at aol.com (Showell30@aol.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Public Wiki for SPUG discussions Message-ID: <14.18bea8d7.28ab01d4@aol.com> Hello. I have installed a version of the UseMod Perl Wiki on my web host to enhance collaborative discussions between SPUGsters. Basically, a Wiki is a web site that users can edit. No description that I could muster would ever do justice to it, so please just try it out: http://showell.westhost.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage All SPUGsters are welcome to edit any page on the site. -- Steve Howell P.S. Any other Wiki users, please chime in. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20010814/4ba37f05/attachment.htm From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Aug 14 20:11:12 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl+Accounting Gig Message-ID: <20010814181112.A31441@timji.consultix.wa.com> SPUG Members, I have a position with a company based in Seattle. My client is looking for someone who has a background in both Perl programming as well as accounting. The position involves working directly with the company President on the transition of their internal auditing programs to their corporate offices. You will be involved in setting up and running commission reports for their independent agent network of over 125,000 individuals. This is a direct placement position with full benefits and a salary range of $50-$70k with some room for negotiation. For more information please contact me at kriss@isomedia.com Kris Schreiber * Kirkbride Associates, Inc. Phone: 425.688.0485 * 877.455.1527 Fax: 425-453-5257 "Opportunities are multiplied as they are seized." Sun Tsu www.kirkbrideassoc.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From scott at sabmail.rresearch.com Tue Aug 14 20:21:12 2001 From: scott at sabmail.rresearch.com (Scott Blachowicz) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Does Perl Scale? (Was: Evolution of Perl) In-Reply-To: <20010814022833.VWUU8490.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> References: <20010814022833.VWUU8490.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <20010814182112.B98753@sabami.seaslug.org> On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 02:28:32AM +0000, MichaelRUnningWolf@att.net wrote: > > My personal-best is a 10X improvement within the first 2 > hours on a new job (good karma points). [[I rewrote > back-ticks in a shell script, eliminating *lots* of > fork/exec.]] Let's see here...is this a contest? :)) Mine is looking at some FORTRAN code that figured out which items in a network of connected nodes were connected to each other. The original code iterated through the nodes and for each node, iterated through all of the other nodes looking for ones that are connected to that node. It took something on the order of 17-20 hours to run (on HP/1000 RTE systems). I got it down to about 10 minutes by using a little extra memory to do a 2 pass sweep through all the nodes - pass 1 to iterate through each node and cache which nodes it is connected to. Pass 2 to go through each node and dump out its connections. So...thinking about the algorithms and tradeoffs a bit (and changing the number of iterations from (n ** n) to (n * 2)) kinda helps... Scott - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From jope-spug at jope.net Wed Aug 15 00:24:38 2001 From: jope-spug at jope.net (El JoPe Magnifico) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Slow list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yuh, I complained about this a couple months ago, but got no response. Only thing I can figure is their queue has gotten really backed up, e.g. stuck messages due to bad recipient addresses on the various lists. Unrelated: Tim, could you please update the URL in the list's signature? It's still pointing at Halcyon. -jp On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Andrew Sweger wrote: > Why does it seem to take so long for posting to show up on the list? It > always seems to take between 30 and 60 minutes (approx.) for postings to > arrive. A sampling of messages suggests that gocho (the Perl Mongers > outgoing mail server) seems to take its sweet time delivering messages. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From leary at nwlink.com Wed Aug 15 01:11:06 2001 From: leary at nwlink.com (leary@nwlink.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: newbie xml question Message-ID: <20010814231106.A12264@jean.nwlink.com> I want to parse an XML dtd and create some cgi forms, and then output an XML document. The most likely suspect I've found is XML::LibXML::Dtd, but, in my experiment, that parses the dtd into a flat list more or less... hardly the structure I need. How do I get some kind of hierarchical/structured parsing of a dtd, from which I can relatively easily generate XML docs from user input? Do I write my own parser? -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 15 01:32:50 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Slow list In-Reply-To: ; from El JoPe Magnifico on Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 10:24:38PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010814233250.A3196@timji.consultix.wa.com> On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 10:24:38PM -0700, El JoPe Magnifico wrote: > Yuh, I complained about this a couple months ago, but got no response. > Only thing I can figure is their queue has gotten really backed up, > e.g. stuck messages due to bad recipient addresses on the various lists. > > Unrelated: Tim, could you please update the URL in the list's signature? > It's still pointing at Halcyon. I'd like to, but I can't! Majordomo accepts my configuration changes without complaint, but it doesn't actually ever change anything. (And I'm using the same script that used to work, but hasn't since our service went crazy a few months back and was later reinstated.) I've left a message with the majordomo admin, but haven't heard anything back from him yet about this. -Tim > -jp > > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Andrew Sweger wrote: > > Why does it seem to take so long for posting to show up on the list? It > > always seems to take between 30 and 60 minutes (approx.) for postings to > > arrive. A sampling of messages suggests that gocho (the Perl Mongers > > outgoing mail server) seems to take its sweet time delivering messages. > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > -- *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | Email: tim@consultix-inc.com Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl BRIAN INGERSON: Inline.pm | | CLASSES-> Minimal Perl: 9/17; Perl+Mods: 9/18; UNIX: 9/24; Inline: 11/6 | *=========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ From wwalker at buzzard.onr.com Wed Aug 15 20:36:46 2001 From: wwalker at buzzard.onr.com (Wayne Walker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: Testing, please ignore Message-ID: <20010815203646.B18123@buzzard.onr.com> Testing, please ignore. Trying to solve your performance problem. -- Wayne Walker Instructor, Perl Developer, Unix SysAdmin, and SysAdmin for pm.org Resume - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From wwalker at buzzard.onr.com Wed Aug 15 21:44:14 2001 From: wwalker at buzzard.onr.com (Wayne Walker) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:12 2004 Subject: SPUG: One more test, sorry Message-ID: <20010815214414.B18847@buzzard.onr.com> Please ignore what I hope is the last test. -- Wayne Walker Instructor, Perl Developer, Unix SysAdmin, and SysAdmin for pm.org Sent: August 14, 2001 11:11 PM Subject: SPUG: newbie xml question > I want to parse an XML dtd and create some cgi forms, and then output an > XML document. The most likely suspect I've found is XML::LibXML::Dtd, but, > in my experiment, that parses the dtd into a flat list more or less... > hardly the structure I need. > > How do I get some kind of hierarchical/structured parsing of a dtd, from > which I can relatively easily generate XML docs from user input? > > Do I write my own parser? > > -- > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://www.halcyon.com/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From leary at nwlink.com Thu Aug 16 03:59:13 2001 From: leary at nwlink.com (Michael Leary) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Re: newbie xml question In-Reply-To: <016a01c12630$2483fd00$94c54618@gv.shawcable.net>; from kenslinux@home.com on Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 01:47:54AM -0700 References: <20010814231106.A12264@jean.nwlink.com> <016a01c12630$2483fd00$94c54618@gv.shawcable.net> Message-ID: <20010816015913.E21638@jean.nwlink.com> rats, mostly RSS and nothing about smartly parsing dtd's... :( On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 01:47:54AM -0700, Ken Clarke wrote: > Checkout http://www.perlcgi-book.com/ Just so happens that the sample > chapter is the one on XML :) > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mwallend at ch2m.com Fri Aug 17 18:51:52 2001 From: mwallend at ch2m.com (Wallendahl, Michael/SEA) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs Message-ID: <9DFA13DFD354D311A36A00508B0CAF2B033CFB6D@merlin.ch2m.com> I'm just curious what everyone's opinion is about "web bugs" -- 1x1 transparent gifs that some companies embed in their web pages and HTML e-mails. An overview article can be found here: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Marketing/web_bug.html Some people say that these gif's are just used to track how popular a web site is--if that's the case, why would they include identifying information in the web bug URL? I was pretty indifferent about the practice until I realized that some junk mail I got from my student loan company, SallieMae, included a little snippet of html code like this This means that they now know the exact second that I read my e-mail and they also know if I forward this specific message onto someone else (because the "hit" in the log file will come from a different source IP address but contain the same e-mail address tag). It's like a Read Receipt that I can't get around. And since it went to my hotmail account, I can't force it to "plain text" format before I read it to get around this problem. I feel like writing a Perl script to "spam" the salliemae.sfi0.com web server back with random e-mail addresses, but that wouldn't solve anything (besides, it would be easy to filter out my "spam" from their logs because all the hits would be from the same address). Anyway, just wondering what you all think. Do you use these "bugs" in your own web projects? -Mike - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Fri Aug 17 20:09:23 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <9DFA13DFD354D311A36A00508B0CAF2B033CFB6D@merlin.ch2m.com> References: <9DFA13DFD354D311A36A00508B0CAF2B033CFB6D@merlin.ch2m.com> Message-ID: <87u1z6w4vw.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> | Anyway, just wondering what you all think. Do you use these "bugs" in your | own web projects? Never. They're generally only used for advertising and spam, so the issue rarely comes up, but I once walked out on a job because they were requiring it, and I considered it an unethical practice. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jonwood at microsoft.com Mon Aug 20 15:02:31 2001 From: jonwood at microsoft.com (Jonathan Woodard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs Message-ID: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> I run a data warehouse to provide analytical data about a web service. We don't use transparent gifs in our web pages, but we are evaluating whether and how to use them. If we do implement them it would make our work of parsing through IIS logs for page view data much easier. It would not be used to track individual users (we're a free service w/o cookies, so we have no reliable way to track single users). I know of another web team that does use clear gifs in their pages for exactly the same thing. This practice is essentially a more efficient web server logging mechanism. I don't see how that is an invasion of privacy. This tool, like any other, can be used for less scrupulous ends, including spam. Using clear gifs in html emails sounds distasteful to me, but I think it would be a clever/sneaky way to discover who is leaking information by forwarding confidential messages. Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: Wallendahl, Michael/SEA [mailto:mwallend@ch2m.com] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 16:52 To: SPUG Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs I'm just curious what everyone's opinion is about "web bugs" -- 1x1 transparent gifs that some companies embed in their web pages and HTML e-mails. An overview article can be found here: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Marketing/web_bug.html Some people say that these gif's are just used to track how popular a web site is--if that's the case, why would they include identifying information in the web bug URL? I was pretty indifferent about the practice until I realized that some junk mail I got from my student loan company, SallieMae, included a little snippet of html code like this This means that they now know the exact second that I read my e-mail and they also know if I forward this specific message onto someone else (because the "hit" in the log file will come from a different source IP address but contain the same e-mail address tag). It's like a Read Receipt that I can't get around. And since it went to my hotmail account, I can't force it to "plain text" format before I read it to get around this problem. I feel like writing a Perl script to "spam" the salliemae.sfi0.com web server back with random e-mail addresses, but that wouldn't solve anything (besides, it would be easy to filter out my "spam" from their logs because all the hits would be from the same address). Anyway, just wondering what you all think. Do you use these "bugs" in your own web projects? -Mike - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jay at Scherrer.com Mon Aug 20 18:07:06 2001 From: jay at Scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Privacy groups beef up Microsoft complaint to FTC Message-ID: <3B81981A.13CE15FA@scherrer.com> If you're worried about web bugs, you should read this article concerning Microsoft's XP. http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO63093,00.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From doug at beaver.net Mon Aug 20 19:27:37 2001 From: doug at beaver.net (Doug Beaver) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>; from jonwood@microsoft.com on Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 01:02:31PM -0700 References: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> On Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 01:02:31PM -0700, Jonathan Woodard wrote: > I run a data warehouse to provide analytical data about a web service. > We don't use transparent gifs in our web pages, but we are evaluating > whether and how to use them. If we do implement them it would make > our work of parsing through IIS logs for page view data much easier. > It would not be used to track individual users (we're a free service > w/o cookies, so we have no reliable way to track single users). I > know of another web team that does use clear gifs in their pages for > exactly the same thing. This practice is essentially a more efficient > web server logging mechanism. I don't see how that is an invasion of > privacy. Hello Jonathan, What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or generated by a cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page view data? I am trying to see the benefit, but I can't. Can you explain a little more? > This tool, like any other, can be used for less scrupulous ends, > including spam. Using clear gifs in html emails sounds distasteful to > me, but I think it would be a clever/sneaky way to discover who is > leaking information by forwarding confidential messages. > > Jonathan The thing that upsets me about web bugs is that you can't turn them off. At least you can turn off cookies. Even if you're using a proxy which strips your identifying headers, they can still track you since the tracking info is encoded in the image name. You can't get the content for the image unless you ask for it by name. Sounds like a beer slogan or something. :-) At least for now, most web bugs are obvious, like: You can configure your proxy to look for img tags where the image looks like a cgi call and strip those out, but what about autogenerated tracking that looks innocent: Whether it is on a web page or in an email, obvious or not, web bugs make me really nervous. You might be able to test for the existence of web bugs by using a proxy and doing a HEAD request on each "image" referred to by tags. Here is a comparison of the headers for a generated image and a static image: dougb@towelie:/usr/local/www/cgi-bin % telnet localhost 80 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. HEAD /cgi-bin/image.cgi HTTP/1.0 HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:21:07 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.20 (Unix) Connection: close Content-Type: image/gif Connection closed by foreign host. dougb@towelie:/usr/local/www/cgi-bin % telnet localhost 80 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. HEAD /randomimages/simpson004.gif HTTP/1.0 HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:21:45 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.20 (Unix) Last-Modified: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:42:08 GMT ETag: "7e421-439-3b819240" Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 1081 Connection: close Content-Type: image/gif Connection closed by foreign host. image.cgi takes a random image from /randomimages and displays it. The second request is for a static image inside /randomimages. You can see that the static request had a lot more header information. You could make the cgi generate Content-Length and Last-Modified headers, but I wonder how many web bug creators think of matching their headers to static images served by their web server platform... Doug -----Original Message----- From: Wallendahl, Michael/SEA [mailto:mwallend@ch2m.com] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 16:52 To: SPUG Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs I'm just curious what everyone's opinion is about "web bugs" -- 1x1 transparent gifs that some companies embed in their web pages and HTML e-mails. An overview article can be found here: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Marketing/web_bug.html Some people say that these gif's are just used to track how popular a web site is--if that's the case, why would they include identifying information in the web bug URL? I was pretty indifferent about the practice until I realized that some junk mail I got from my student loan company, SallieMae, included a little snippet of html code like this This means that they now know the exact second that I read my e-mail and they also know if I forward this specific message onto someone else (because the "hit" in the log file will come from a different source IP address but contain the same e-mail address tag). It's like a Read Receipt that I can't get around. And since it went to my hotmail account, I can't force it to "plain text" format before I read it to get around this problem. I feel like writing a Perl script to "spam" the salliemae.sfi0.com web server back with random e-mail addresses, but that wouldn't solve anything (besides, it would be easy to filter out my "spam" from their logs because all the hits would be from the same address). Anyway, just wondering what you all think. Do you use these "bugs" in your own web projects? -Mike - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Mon Aug 20 20:05:18 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> References: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> Message-ID: <87r8u6te7l.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Doug Beaver writes: | What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or generated by a | cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page view data? I am trying to | see the benefit, but I can't. Can you explain a little more? Specifically, when you visit a site (say, cnn.com), they have the option of dropping in a webbug (or set of them) from various other firms. The cnn.com page might consist of: The HTML document An IBM ad A Compaq ad A doubleclick.com webbug The doubleclick.com webbug almost always has a way of encoding more information in the URL, so now doubleclick.com knows that you saw the article, which ads you saw, and when you saw it. They also work with cnn.com to discover the referring URL. Alone, this is no big deal, but you can see how, with enough webbugs on enough sites (and it doesn't take a majority of them), doubleclick.com can come up with a really good profile of individual users, and come up with more effective (read "obnoxious") advertising tactics. Even worse is emails---it's like a read-receipt that mailreaders like Outlook won't let you block. This is one of the primary reasons why I don't use a graphical mailreader. | The thing that upsets me about web bugs is that you can't turn them off. At | least you can turn off cookies. Even if you're using a proxy which strips | your identifying headers, they can still track you since the tracking info is | encoded in the image name. Well, there are ways. On the Macintosh, for example, a popular web-browser named OmniWeb allows you to do URL blocking (with regular expressions, no less), and that one ability (along with superior cookie management) has made it my favorite browser. Mozilla is also going to permit you to block images from sites, whenever it becomes ready for prime-time. Your only other avenues are HTML proxies like junkbuster, which block image requests from sites you select. | You might be able to test for the existence of web bugs by using a proxy | and doing a HEAD request on each "image" referred to by tags. Actually, if you can just get a list of IMG URLs out of the page efficiently, they're pretty easy to spot. OmniWeb has the "Get Info" command; it will list all the resources a page attempts to load. But it does take a pair of eyeballs to distinguish ads and webbugs from legitimate spacers and the like. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From whitneyt at agcs.com Mon Aug 20 20:34:41 2001 From: whitneyt at agcs.com (Thomas Whitney) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs References: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> <87r8u6te7l.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: <3B81BAB1.D0D59832@agcs.com> Sites can gather the same information through cgi etc, and these sites could forward the information to the interested companies instead of embedding a bug in their html. So the bug just makes it easier, but would it still be an issue if sites did that instead? Ken McGlothlen wrote: > Doug Beaver writes: > > | What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or generated by a > | cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page view data? I am trying to > | see the benefit, but I can't. Can you explain a little more? > > Specifically, when you visit a site (say, cnn.com), they have the option of > dropping in a webbug (or set of them) from various other firms. The cnn.com > page might consist of: > > The HTML document > An IBM ad > A Compaq ad > A doubleclick.com webbug > > The doubleclick.com webbug almost always has a way of encoding more information > in the URL, so now doubleclick.com knows that you saw the article, which ads > you saw, and when you saw it. They also work with cnn.com to discover the > referring URL. > > Alone, this is no big deal, but you can see how, with enough webbugs on enough > sites (and it doesn't take a majority of them), doubleclick.com can come up > with a really good profile of individual users, and come up with more effective > (read "obnoxious") advertising tactics. > > Even worse is emails---it's like a read-receipt that mailreaders like Outlook > won't let you block. This is one of the primary reasons why I don't use a > graphical mailreader. > > | The thing that upsets me about web bugs is that you can't turn them off. At > | least you can turn off cookies. Even if you're using a proxy which strips > | your identifying headers, they can still track you since the tracking info is > | encoded in the image name. > > Well, there are ways. On the Macintosh, for example, a popular web-browser > named OmniWeb allows you to do URL blocking (with regular expressions, no > less), and that one ability (along with superior cookie management) has made it > my favorite browser. Mozilla is also going to permit you to block images from > sites, whenever it becomes ready for prime-time. Your only other avenues are > HTML proxies like junkbuster, which block image requests from sites you select. > > | You might be able to test for the existence of web bugs by using a proxy > | and doing a HEAD request on each "image" referred to by tags. > > Actually, if you can just get a list of IMG URLs out of the page efficiently, > they're pretty easy to spot. OmniWeb has the "Get Info" command; it will list > all the resources a page attempts to load. But it does take a pair of eyeballs > to distinguish ads and webbugs from legitimate spacers and the like. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jonwood at microsoft.com Mon Aug 20 20:34:28 2001 From: jonwood at microsoft.com (Jonathan Woodard) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs Message-ID: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F6AF@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In response to Doug... Ralph Kimball explains the utility of transparent gifs better than I in The_Data_Webhouse_Toolkit, p. 123-126. He calls it null logging. I'll give a summary and my take on this. You can specify the source of the transparent image to be a URI that points to a server or set of servers dedicated to collecting page view data by serving up only transparent images. Let's call them logging servers. The IMG SRC tag used to embed the transparent gif can have useful metadata embedded in it - whatever you want to log about the page/frame it's embedded in. To borrow Kimball's example, the tag could look like: In this example, logserver.mega-merc.com points to the logging servers. Then, instead of parsing through the front end servers' logs, you just go through the logging servers' logs. They'll have only http get calls to the transparent image, along with whatever metadata you embed in the get call parameters to the image. In this example, you'd see a catalog page hit for sku bear089. In our case, parsing through smaller logs would be very useful - we collect over 20 GB of IIS logs daily, coming from several geographic locations and many servers. Of course Perl handles this data effectively, but decreasing what gets parsed in the first place is very attractive to me. I'd like to provide faster turnaround time for feedback on our sites - logging what we're interested in to a set of dedicated logging servers by embedding their URI in transparent gifs is one approach. As a user you can tell your browser not to show images to avoid getting logged, but I don't see the big deal, as long as you trust what sites and services you use. For my group, knowing how customers (in aggregate) use our sites is extremely valuable to designers, management, marketing, operations, and content creators. If we don't know how effective our site is, we might as well close up shop and go home. I hope that services I use online are always looking for ways to improve. I have yet to think of any utility for transparent gifs in email other than spam and tracking the path of a message as it gets passed along by html mail clients. Both uses are obnoxious. -----Original Message----- From: Ken McGlothlen [mailto:mcglk@artlogix.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 18:05 To: Doug Beaver Cc: Jonathan Woodard; Wallendahl, Michael/SEA; SPUG Subject: Re: SPUG: Web Bugs Doug Beaver writes: | What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or | generated by a | cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page view data? I am trying to | see the benefit, but I can't. Can you explain a little more? Specifically, when you visit a site (say, cnn.com), they have the option of dropping in a webbug (or set of them) from various other firms. The cnn.com page might consist of: The HTML document An IBM ad A Compaq ad A doubleclick.com webbug The doubleclick.com webbug almost always has a way of encoding more information in the URL, so now doubleclick.com knows that you saw the article, which ads you saw, and when you saw it. They also work with cnn.com to discover the referring URL. Alone, this is no big deal, but you can see how, with enough webbugs on enough sites (and it doesn't take a majority of them), doubleclick.com can come up with a really good profile of individual users, and come up with more effective (read "obnoxious") advertising tactics. Even worse is emails---it's like a read-receipt that mailreaders like Outlook won't let you block. This is one of the primary reasons why I don't use a graphical mailreader. | The thing that upsets me about web bugs is that you can't turn them | off. At least you can turn off cookies. Even if you're using a proxy | which strips your identifying headers, they can still track you since | the tracking info is encoded in the image name. Well, there are ways. On the Macintosh, for example, a popular web-browser named OmniWeb allows you to do URL blocking (with regular expressions, no less), and that one ability (along with superior cookie management) has made it my favorite browser. Mozilla is also going to permit you to block images from sites, whenever it becomes ready for prime-time. Your only other avenues are HTML proxies like junkbuster, which block image requests from sites you select. | You might be able to test for the existence of web bugs by using a | proxy and doing a HEAD request on each "image" referred to by | tags. Actually, if you can just get a list of IMG URLs out of the page efficiently, they're pretty easy to spot. OmniWeb has the "Get Info" command; it will list all the resources a page attempts to load. But it does take a pair of eyeballs to distinguish ads and webbugs from legitimate spacers and the like. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Mon Aug 20 20:45:00 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> References: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> Message-ID: <20010820184500.E2732@hobart.helvella.org> Doug, On Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 08:27:37PM -0400, Doug Beaver wrote: > > What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or generated > by a cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page view data? I am > trying to see the benefit, but I can't. Can you explain a little more? Imagine an html attachment to an email that somewhere includes the image: Anyone who views the html attachment with a browser that automatically fetches all images will have inadvertently logged the fact (in emailtracker.com's web access.log) that this html attachment has been read from their particular ip address. That the gif happens to be tiny and transparent makes it not so noticeable to the typical user. Insidious. Have fun, -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From doug at beaver.net Mon Aug 20 20:49:41 2001 From: doug at beaver.net (Doug Beaver) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <87r8u6te7l.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com>; from mcglk@artlogix.com on Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 06:05:18PM -0700 References: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> <87r8u6te7l.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Message-ID: <20010820214941.D78384@beaver.net> On Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 06:05:18PM -0700, Ken McGlothlen wrote: > Doug Beaver writes: > > | What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or > | generated by a cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page > | view data? I am trying to see the benefit, but I can't. Can you > | explain a little more? > > Specifically, when you visit a site (say, cnn.com), they have the > option of dropping in a webbug (or set of them) from various other > firms. The cnn.com page might consist of: > > The HTML document > An IBM ad > A Compaq ad > A doubleclick.com webbug > > The doubleclick.com webbug almost always has a way of encoding more > information in the URL, so now doubleclick.com knows that you saw the > article, which ads you saw, and when you saw it. They also work with > cnn.com to discover the referring URL. Ah. Although doubleclick would only know what ads you saw if the images were served from doubleclick servers or if CNN was sending doubleclick information after they parsed their logs. > Alone, this is no big deal, but you can see how, with enough webbugs > on enough sites (and it doesn't take a majority of them), > doubleclick.com can come up with a really good profile of individual > users, and come up with more effective (read "obnoxious") advertising > tactics. > > Even worse is emails---it's like a read-receipt that mailreaders like > Outlook won't let you block. This is one of the primary reasons why I > don't use a graphical mailreader. Me too. That and protection from email virii/worms. > | The thing that upsets me about web bugs is that you can't turn them > | off. At least you can turn off cookies. Even if you're using a > | proxy which strips your identifying headers, they can still track > | you since the tracking info is encoded in the image name. > > Well, there are ways. On the Macintosh, for example, a popular > web-browser named OmniWeb allows you to do URL blocking (with regular > expressions, no less), and that one ability (along with superior > cookie management) has made it my favorite browser. Mozilla is also > going to permit you to block images from sites, whenever it becomes > ready for prime-time. Your only other avenues are HTML proxies like > junkbuster, which block image requests from sites you select. I'm using mozilla 0.9.3 and it seems to have stub support for the regex filtering on images. In the preferences menu, you can select privacy & security->images->image permissions. It has an option under the images tab where you force mozilla to only request images from the domain you're currently viewing. I bet that helps with external bugs (i.e. served from doubleclick or akamai) a lot. I wonder if there is an ORBS-like list for web bug servers... > | You might be able to test for the existence of web bugs by using a > | proxy and doing a HEAD request on each "image" referred to by > | tags. > > Actually, if you can just get a list of IMG URLs out of the page > efficiently, they're pretty easy to spot. OmniWeb has the "Get Info" > command; it will list all the resources a page attempts to load. But > it does take a pair of eyeballs to distinguish ads and webbugs from > legitimate spacers and the like. I wasn't clear about my point. I mentioned the HEAD technique after talking about 'stealth' web bugs who look like normal images. A regex match would pass these images while a header check might not. Anybody have any other tips or tricks for detecting web bugs? I'm going to add them all to my http proxy server. They are almost a requirement for surfing these days. :-/ This is an interesting discussion! Doug - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mcglk at artlogix.com Mon Aug 20 21:03:36 2001 From: mcglk at artlogix.com (Ken McGlothlen) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <20010820214941.D78384@beaver.net> References: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F619@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> <87r8u6te7l.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> <20010820214941.D78384@beaver.net> Message-ID: <87elq6tbif.fsf@ralf.artlogix.com> Doug Beaver writes: | Ah. Although doubleclick would only know what ads you saw if the images | were served from doubleclick servers or if CNN was sending doubleclick | information after they parsed their logs. It's almost always the former. CNN has no need to host the webbug, because you're loading their document; they have a record. It's the aggregators that are the big privacy problem. | Me too. That and protection from email virii/worms. Amen. :) | It has an option under the images tab where you force mozilla to only request | images from the domain you're currently viewing. I bet that helps with | external bugs (i.e., served from doubleclick or akamai) a lot. Yes, but unfortunately, akamai also carries a lot of actual content-oriented images. This is why regex blocking is better than site-wide blocking. | I wonder if there is an ORBS-like list for web bug servers... Not exactly. junkbuster.org doesn't provide much of a block file. Try a Google search; quite a few come up with this query: http://www.google.com/search?q=junkbuster+blockfile | Anybody have any other tips or tricks for detecting web bugs? Stay informed. That's the main thing. Investigate suspicious GIFs, and axe 'em. For example, here's my OmniWeb privacy preferences: .*clickability\.com .*flycast\.com .*yourcompass\.com /.*\.247media.com/ /.*\.a1\.yimg\.com/ /.*\.adbureau.net/ /.*\.centrport\.net/ /.*\.doubleclick\.net/ /.*\.focalink\.com/ /.*\.linx\.sk/ /.*\.mediaplex\.com/ /.*\.msads\.net/ /.*\.paypal\.com/images/.*click.* /.*avenuea\.com/ /.*hitbox\.com/ /.*intelliads\.com/ /.*linksynergy\.com/ /.*x10.com/ /64\.14\.52\..*/ /[Aa][Dd][Ss]?/ /abcnews\.footprint\.net/ad/ /ads\..*\.com/ /ads\..*\.net/ /ads\.guardianunlimited\.co\.uk/ /ads\.telegraph\.co\.uk/ /adserver/ /adv/ /banners/ /cookie\.tucows\.com/ /g\.fool\.com/art/free/ /g\.fool\.com/art/quotes/compaq.gif /images\.slashdot\.org/banner/ /media\.quinstreet\.com/ /servads\.aip\.org/ /www\.latimes\.com/ads/ /www\.salon\.com/Creatives/house_468_ron/ /www\.threebrain\.com/ban.*\.jpg 120x60 336x280 468x60 adverts nl_ad\.gif sponsors superstats\.com toolbar\.netscape\.com zdnet.com/adverts/ Works pretty well. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From doug at beaver.net Mon Aug 20 21:14:35 2001 From: doug at beaver.net (Doug Beaver) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F6AF@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>; from jonwood@microsoft.com on Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 06:34:28PM -0700 References: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F6AF@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <20010820221435.E78384@beaver.net> On Mon, Aug 20, 2001 at 06:34:28PM -0700, Jonathan Woodard wrote: > In response to Doug... Ralph Kimball explains the utility of > transparent gifs better than I in The_Data_Webhouse_Toolkit, p. > 123-126. He calls it null logging. I'll give a summary and my take > on this. > > You can specify the source of the transparent image to be a URI that > points to a server or set of servers dedicated to collecting page view > data by serving up only transparent images. Let's call them logging > servers. The IMG SRC tag used to embed the transparent gif can have > useful metadata embedded in it - whatever you want to log about the > page/frame it's embedded in. To borrow Kimball's example, the tag > could look like: > > SRC="http://logserver.mega-merc.com/nullpic.gif?type=catalog&sku=bear089 > "> > > In this example, logserver.mega-merc.com points to the logging > servers. Then, instead of parsing through the front end servers' > logs, you just go through the logging servers' logs. They'll have > only http get calls to the transparent image, along with whatever > metadata you embed in the get call parameters to the image. In this > example, you'd see a catalog page hit for sku bear089. > > In our case, parsing through smaller logs would be very useful - we > collect over 20 GB of IIS logs daily, coming from several geographic > locations and many servers. Of course Perl handles this data > effectively, but decreasing what gets parsed in the first place is > very attractive to me. I'd like to provide faster turnaround time for > feedback on our sites - logging what we're interested in to a set of > dedicated logging servers by embedding their URI in transparent gifs > is one approach. That is pretty cool. I was going to argue that you could just parse out the access logs but I didn't think about sending the image requests to a separate logging server to reduce the log size. I can see the benefit now, thanks. > As a user you can tell your browser not to show images to avoid > getting logged, but I don't see the big deal, as long as you trust > what sites and services you use. For my group, knowing how customers > (in aggregate) use our sites is extremely valuable to designers, > management, marketing, operations, and content creators. If we don't > know how effective our site is, we might as well close up shop and go > home. I hope that services I use online are always looking for ways > to improve. I don't mind if they improve their services, it's just that it can be hard to distinguish between good and evil web bugs. So I'd rather they didn't use them at all. And I can't come up with a better argument against web bugs besides they are too easily used for evil. Say web bugs were made illegal or hadn't been invented, you could get the same data by parsing your access logs and sending data back and forth to doubleclick or whoever is doing the tracking for you. It's just that web bugs make the tracking so simple and immediate for the implementor. > I have yet to think of any utility for transparent gifs in email other > than spam and tracking the path of a message as it gets passed along > by html mail clients. Both uses are obnoxious. Total agreement here. Although it would be fun to send a html chain email around the globe and see where it goes. I could create one of those my-rich-uncle-died-and-i-have-to-distribute-his-foreign-fortune scams and see where it goes (geographically, that is). :-) Doug > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken McGlothlen [mailto:mcglk@artlogix.com] > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 18:05 > To: Doug Beaver > Cc: Jonathan Woodard; Wallendahl, Michael/SEA; SPUG > Subject: Re: SPUG: Web Bugs > > > Doug Beaver writes: > > | What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or > | generated by a > | cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page view data? I am > trying to > | see the benefit, but I can't. Can you explain a little more? > > Specifically, when you visit a site (say, cnn.com), they have the option > of dropping in a webbug (or set of them) from various other firms. The > cnn.com page might consist of: > > The HTML document > An IBM ad > A Compaq ad > A doubleclick.com webbug > > The doubleclick.com webbug almost always has a way of encoding more > information in the URL, so now doubleclick.com knows that you saw the > article, which ads you saw, and when you saw it. They also work with > cnn.com to discover the referring URL. > > Alone, this is no big deal, but you can see how, with enough webbugs on > enough sites (and it doesn't take a majority of them), doubleclick.com > can come up with a really good profile of individual users, and come up > with more effective (read "obnoxious") advertising tactics. > > Even worse is emails---it's like a read-receipt that mailreaders like > Outlook won't let you block. This is one of the primary reasons why I > don't use a graphical mailreader. > > | The thing that upsets me about web bugs is that you can't turn them > | off. At least you can turn off cookies. Even if you're using a proxy > > | which strips your identifying headers, they can still track you since > | the tracking info is encoded in the image name. > > Well, there are ways. On the Macintosh, for example, a popular > web-browser named OmniWeb allows you to do URL blocking (with regular > expressions, no less), and that one ability (along with superior cookie > management) has made it my favorite browser. Mozilla is also going to > permit you to block images from sites, whenever it becomes ready for > prime-time. Your only other avenues are HTML proxies like junkbuster, > which block image requests from sites you select. > > | You might be able to test for the existence of web bugs by using a > | proxy and doing a HEAD request on each "image" referred to by > | tags. > > Actually, if you can just get a list of IMG URLs out of the page > efficiently, they're pretty easy to spot. OmniWeb has the "Get Info" > command; it will list all the resources a page attempts to load. But it > does take a pair of eyeballs to distinguish ads and webbugs from > legitimate spacers and the like. > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From daryn at marinated.org Mon Aug 20 21:28:22 2001 From: daryn at marinated.org (Daryn Nakhuda) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <20010820202737.A78384@beaver.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Doug Beaver wrote: > What is it about transparent gifs (whether they are static or generated > by a cgi) that makes it easier to log and retrieve page view data? I am > trying to see the benefit, but I can't. Can you explain a little more? it's not the fact that the gifs themselves are easier to track, but you can use them as a means for doing your own tracking. rather than parsing the server access logs, you can send whatever information you want to the "gif", and log it then. The gifs of course don't need to be transparent (or gifs :) ) but it's a nice way to be able to force the browser to request the logging-object from your server. I've been using this technique for several years. I don't have a problem w/ the technology, but I agree that it can be abused. The privacy issue isn't so much with sites that are using this technique for the own site; but with people like doubleclick who have the ability to do this across a network of site. Because the images are all served from the same domain, they can share cookie information, such as personal identifiers. I'll let you figure out why that's bad in many ways.. Another company that does something similar is Coremetrics. They are even scarier b/c of the detail of information that they collect. We were an early customer of theirs at an e-commerce company I worked at, and they'd collect detail as to what you put in your cart, what you removed, cart abandonment, ZIPCODE that you shipped to (actually, they asked for whole addresses but we wouldn't give them that), credit card type, and more. Tie this to the fact that they used a global identifier across all their clients, and you get a very powerful (and scary) set of data. they know that YOU, an individual, have certain sites that you visit often but never buy from, sites that you only look at the front page of, sites where you flip through dozens of pages of pictures of naked women, and like to post a lot of reviews of religious books at amazon (not a coremetrics client, but you get the point). And worst of all, they may even know your NAME and ADDRESS! they eventually had some bad press, and put an opt-out on their website, but becuase they were using transparent 1x1 gifs, I bet most people didn't even realize all this was being tracked. The one thing to note, is that while this is all great and conspiratorial to talk about, and there is a lot that is technically possible to do with this mined data, privacy policies and other legal documents (such as contracts between CM and site operators) limit what they are actually legally allowed to do with all of the data. read this: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2520471.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From daryn at marinated.org Mon Aug 20 21:33:13 2001 From: daryn at marinated.org (Daryn Nakhuda) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <20010820184500.E2732@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Colin Meyer wrote: > Imagine an html attachment to an email that somewhere includes the image: > > > > Anyone who views the html attachment with a browser that automatically > fetches all images will have inadvertently logged the fact (in > emailtracker.com's web access.log) that this html attachment has been > read from their particular ip address. I forgot to mention an even more evil trick: with some javascript loading that image, you can get a lot more detail than just a "hit". For example, I could tell how long you looked at the page, what page elements you rolled over, and more.. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From daryn at marinated.org Mon Aug 20 21:41:35 2001 From: daryn at marinated.org (Daryn Nakhuda) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Web Bugs In-Reply-To: <1D4512C91A0E044FBF24DDB221C94C530568F6AF@red-msg-29.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Jonathan Woodard wrote: > SRC="http://logserver.mega-merc.com/nullpic.gif?type=catalog&sku=bear089 > "> > > In this example, logserver.mega-merc.com points to the logging servers. > Then, instead of parsing through the front end servers' logs, you just > go through the logging servers' logs. They'll have only http get calls > to the transparent image, along with whatever metadata you embed in the > get call parameters to the image. In this example, you'd see a catalog > page hit for sku bear089. > > In our case, parsing through smaller logs would be very useful - we > collect over 20 GB of IIS logs daily, coming from several geographic > locations and many servers. Of course Perl handles this data it's called grep :) just kidding, but rather than take that approach, you could just have the "gif" be a cgi script (or whatever), and do the logging from there into a database and have it be much more realtime than parsing through the logfiles. There are advantages to serving the images off a different server: reduce load, take advantage of caching, etc..., but as far as logging is concerned if you have the infrastructure parsing the data going in is probably advantageous, whether on a seperate box or not. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From florentin at linuxmail.org Mon Aug 20 23:37:35 2001 From: florentin at linuxmail.org (Florentin Ionescu) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Win32 Message-ID: <20010821043736.1703.qmail@linuxmail.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/spug-list/attachments/20010821/4542328e/attachment.htm From kenslinux at home.com Tue Aug 21 01:25:12 2001 From: kenslinux at home.com (Ken Clarke) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: host provider recommendations Message-ID: <01e301c12a0a$09181fa0$94c54618@gv.shawcable.net> Can anyone recommend a host provider that supports mod_perl? I'd prefer one setup with Apache::PerlRun as I'm new to the stringencies of working with mod_perl. Thanks. >> Ken Clarke >> Contract Web Programmer / E-commerce Technologist >> www.perlprogrammer.net - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From andrew at sweger.net Tue Aug 21 03:10:54 2001 From: andrew at sweger.net (Andrew Sweger) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Holy lodestones, Batman!... Message-ID: ...It's a giant magnet. So, has everyone recovered from Damian's visit? Did you know that we have a regular SPUG meeting scheduled for this evening? What's the topic? Who's leading? What's going on? Are we all feeling froopy? Where's my towel? I was just on the phone yesterday evening with a fellow SPUG'er speaking in conspiratorial tones about possible discussions and conversations for future meetings and where and when to have them. It seems that the existence of tonight's meeting completely slipped our minds (it certainly slipped mine). So, barring the appearance of a really compelling topic (or a compelling speaker with a wacky topic) for tonight, perhaps we gather and discuss the state of the Internet, what business it can realistically support, how to find gainful employment without selling our souls, and how to git filthy rich off all the free money floating around out there. I think the meeting room is big enough to support three or four separate conversations. If you didn't get the lodestone -> magnet reference, please report to the headmaster. If you still believe that there is free money floating around out there, please report your head to a bucket of water. If you have a bucket of money and are looking for someplace to put it, please report (bucket in tow) to me. (By the way, don't put bogus zone files in your local name server for pm.org. It makes it very diffucult for your MTA to deliver email to the list. Tsk, tsk, tsk.) -- Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several things can go wrong at once. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Aug 21 09:23:32 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: SPUG Meeting Tonight? In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Sweger on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 01:10:54AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010821072332.A22427@timji.consultix.wa.com> Andy is right, our regularly scheduled meeting is tonight. However, it usually takes us several weeks to recover from any talk by The Damian, and he was just here recently, so I haven't arranged any special program for this evening. But if people want to congregate all the same, and discuss the job market or other hot topics, so be it! On the other hand, it would be a shame for Andy to go to the trouble of setting up the room if nobody would show up, so those planning to attend the impromptu meeting please make that fact known to the list. -Tim ======================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: seattleperl.com | ======================================================== On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 01:10:54AM -0700, Andrew Sweger wrote: > ...It's a giant magnet. > > So, has everyone recovered from Damian's visit? Did you know that we have > a regular SPUG meeting scheduled for this evening? What's the topic? Who's > leading? What's going on? Are we all feeling froopy? Where's my towel? > > I was just on the phone yesterday evening with a fellow SPUG'er speaking > in conspiratorial tones about possible discussions and conversations for > future meetings and where and when to have them. It seems that the > existence of tonight's meeting completely slipped our minds (it certainly > slipped mine). > > So, barring the appearance of a really compelling topic (or a compelling > speaker with a wacky topic) for tonight, perhaps we gather and discuss the > state of the Internet, what business it can realistically support, how to > find gainful employment without selling our souls, and how to git filthy > rich off all the free money floating around out there. I think the meeting > room is big enough to support three or four separate conversations. > > If you didn't get the lodestone -> magnet reference, please report to the > headmaster. If you still believe that there is free money floating around > out there, please report your head to a bucket of water. If you have a > bucket of money and are looking for someplace to put it, please report > (bucket in tow) to me. > > (By the way, don't put bogus zone files in your local name server for > pm.org. It makes it very diffucult for your MTA to deliver email to the > list. Tsk, tsk, tsk.) > > -- > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several > things can go wrong at once. > *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | Email: tim@consultix-inc.com Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl BRIAN INGERSON: Inline.pm | | CLASSES-> Minimal Perl: 9/17; Perl+Mods: 9/18; UNIX: 9/24; Inline: 11/6 | *=========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From warner at oz.net Tue Aug 21 08:54:44 2001 From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: SPUG Meeting Message-ID: <3B826824.2BD986C0@oz.net> So, where and when is tonights SPUG meeting? Have not been yet, but if tonights topic is "what the Internet can reasonably support" it would be a good time to show up. I bought a couple of Linux servers a while back thinking I would start an ASP service for back office processes for niche industries. Well my jaw dropped when I found out what I would consider a reasonable speed connection actually cost. No wonder half of the sites I visit take so long to load. Only the biggest sites seem to be able to afford a decent connection. Internet bandwidth pricing pretty much stops a lot of us before we even get started. Have you heard about the latest last mile solution? Fiber optics in the sewer line/ gas mains. Scott Warner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cjcollier at sinclair.net Tue Aug 21 14:07:14 2001 From: cjcollier at sinclair.net (C.J. Collier) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Holy lodestones, Batman!... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sounds like a great activity for the evening. I'll be there, feelin' hoopy with mental towel in hand. C.J. On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Andrew Sweger wrote: > ...It's a giant magnet. > > So, has everyone recovered from Damian's visit? Did you know that we have > a regular SPUG meeting scheduled for this evening? What's the topic? Who's > leading? What's going on? Are we all feeling froopy? Where's my towel? > > I was just on the phone yesterday evening with a fellow SPUG'er speaking > in conspiratorial tones about possible discussions and conversations for > future meetings and where and when to have them. It seems that the > existence of tonight's meeting completely slipped our minds (it certainly > slipped mine). > > So, barring the appearance of a really compelling topic (or a compelling > speaker with a wacky topic) for tonight, perhaps we gather and discuss the > state of the Internet, what business it can realistically support, how to > find gainful employment without selling our souls, and how to git filthy > rich off all the free money floating around out there. I think the meeting > room is big enough to support three or four separate conversations. > > If you didn't get the lodestone -> magnet reference, please report to the > headmaster. If you still believe that there is free money floating around > out there, please report your head to a bucket of water. If you have a > bucket of money and are looking for someplace to put it, please report > (bucket in tow) to me. > > (By the way, don't put bogus zone files in your local name server for > pm.org. It makes it very diffucult for your MTA to deliver email to the > list. Tsk, tsk, tsk.) > > -- > Andrew B. Sweger -- The great thing about multitasking is that several > things can go wrong at once. > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From kevin at economyart.com Tue Aug 21 14:33:10 2001 From: kevin at economyart.com (Kevin Watt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: I'll come if everyone else will In-Reply-To: <3B826824.2BD986C0@oz.net> Message-ID: Ciao, Kevin -------------- Kevin Watt, AllPoetry.com Community manager: Poets Unite! kevin@allpoetry.com "Here, write it, or it will be erased by the wind." - Isabel Allende - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mark.mertel at home.com Tue Aug 21 14:45:28 2001 From: mark.mertel at home.com (Mark Mertel) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: tonights talk - resend with the correct system date Message-ID: <00100513362700.04067@brainiac> SPUGers, are there plans for some kind of get together this evening ? I couldn't quite fathom the consensus - most seemed still floating in some kind of Damien cloud - and Tims got nothing on tap - nor should he considering he's been carrying the water most of the time. I know there's been a lot of talk about getting a hiring manager in (not sure about that title), so un- or under-employed SPUGers could stay clothed and fed. I'm not a hiring manaber per se, just a fairly successfuly independent consultant who might be looking to change careers - used to be a musician and thinking I want it back. The stuff I work on is for a single client - fortune 500 - keeps me busy, way to busy to do anything else. Written mostly in PERL, uses Sybase, MQ Series and other little things. I am currently interested in finding someone to take some of the load so that I can take a couple of steps back and see where I'm going. This would have to someone I could trust, basically, with my life and livelihood, as it is a long rode to a for-profit musical career. I would be willing to talk to anyone in the group about this if there is interest. -- Mark Mertel mark.mertel@home.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From warner at oz.net Tue Aug 21 15:16:15 2001 From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Music Message-ID: <3B82C18F.ADC15759@oz.net> Gee, lets all bring our instruments and have a SPUGSTER Jamathon As far as work? Well I could be playing the blues about now, have been out of work since January. Glad this house (umm shack) is paid for. I surmise we might need a boatload of hiring managers. Im up for my first SPUG meeting. The consensus is ?? :) Scott W. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From largest at largest.org Tue Aug 21 16:11:15 2001 From: largest at largest.org (Joel Grow) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: UW Perl Class Message-ID: Hi, I'm writing to put in a brief plug for the upcoming UW Perl certificate classes and let you know there will be a free information meeting this Wednesday, August 22, from 6-7 PM at the downtown Seattle UW Extension location (1325 4th Ave, suite 400). This 3-course program meets once/week, with 10 sessions per course. This year the program is offered both in the new UW laptop computer lab at the aforementioned downtown Seattle location starting October 1 (the courses run fall/winter/spring), and at the Bellevue location starting January 9 (winter/spring/summer). The 3 courses are Beginning Perl, Advanced/OO Perl, and Perl and the WWW. We start at the beginning (a very good place to start) and go in-depth on many Perl topics, including data types, regular expressions, I/O, complex data structures, object oriented Perl, database access, CGI programming, and lots more. As I mentioned above, a free information session will be held at the downtown location Wednesday, August 22 from 6-7 PM. Another free information session will be held on Thursday September 6 from noon-1 PM at the same location. More information is available at http://www.outreach.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/per/per_main.asp Email me if you'd like references from students from previous year's classes, or with any questions. thanks! Joel __END__ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From mars at www.alaskashops.net Tue Aug 21 17:25:32 2001 From: mars at www.alaskashops.net (mars) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would love to go to a conversational meeting. It is about time that we rise up to the challenge set by the likes of London.pm and NY.pm posed to perl mongers the world over. It is time to proove that we can socialize and network and drink ourselves silly like the rest of them. :) I will be there, 7pm at N2H2/fifth avenue? I hope to see 100's of the rest of you! How can we change the world if we don't network and learn from each other? :) As far as topics go, I am interested in what types of jobs people are doing right now - and how much perl is involved in them. Also, after recently living through the turmoil of the rise and fall of a dot com, I am interested in people's experiences in their current place of work. Are you working in a large bureaucratic company (and what are the pros/cons of this) or are you working in a small start up? and how is your company fairing in the stormy seas of the current economy? Since wallets have been getting tighter at these companies, what are the changes you have seen in business requirements, job expectations and what do you like or dislike about the changes? If you could change your work environment, what would you change and how would you change it? And for those of us searching for work, what have you found out there in the job market? Cheers, Jennifer On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Andrew Sweger wrote: > So, barring the appearance of a really compelling topic (or a compelling > speaker with a wacky topic) for tonight, perhaps we gather and discuss the > state of the Internet, what business it can realistically support, how to > find gainful employment without selling our souls, and how to git filthy > rich off all the free money floating around out there. I think the meeting > room is big enough to support three or four separate conversations. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Tue Aug 21 18:34:21 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: "Conversational" SPUG Meeting Tonight Message-ID: <20010821163421.A26845@timji.consultix.wa.com> SPUGsters, Okay, by popular demand, we'll be having an informal SPUG meeting tonight facilitating discussions of how to find a Perl Job in the current post-Dot.Bomb market environment, and anything else people want to talk about. Mark Mertels, a hiring manager, has offered to share his perspectives on the current hiring situation. As usual, attendees are encouraged to congregate at the Rock Bottom from 6pm - 6:40, to warm up for the 7pm meeting (details at www.zipcon.net/spug). I'm not sure I'll be there, so Andy, as a hiring manager yourself, why don't you run the show (to the extent necessary). -Tim *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | Email: tim@consultix-inc.com Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl BRIAN INGERSON: Inline.pm | | CLASSES-> Minimal Perl: 9/17; Perl+Mods: 9/18; UNIX: 9/24; Inline: 11/6 | *=========================================================================* ======================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: seattleperl.com | ======================================================== - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From joesaphiloff at onebox.com Wed Aug 22 11:24:48 2001 From: joesaphiloff at onebox.com (Joe Saphiloff) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: E-Spug Message-ID: <20010822162448.MKKI12461.mta11.onebox.com@onebox.com> Can anybody tell me if talk has started/resumed 'bout this group? -- "Let your brain go and see what it brings back" Joe Saphilof joesaphiloff@onebox.com - email (425) 586-6719 - voice mail/fax - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Wed Aug 22 12:44:07 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: E-Spug In-Reply-To: <20010822162448.MKKI12461.mta11.onebox.com@onebox.com> References: <20010822162448.MKKI12461.mta11.onebox.com@onebox.com> Message-ID: <20010822104407.B6339@hobart.helvella.org> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 09:24:48AM -0700, Joe Saphiloff wrote: > Can anybody tell me if talk has started/resumed 'bout this group? It sounds like you are volunteering to be the next emporer of E-SPUG? ;-), -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 22 13:15:36 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: E-Spug In-Reply-To: <20010822162448.MKKI12461.mta11.onebox.com@onebox.com>; from Joe Saphiloff on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 09:24:48AM -0700 References: <20010822162448.MKKI12461.mta11.onebox.com@onebox.com> Message-ID: <20010822111536.A3066@timji.consultix.wa.com> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 09:24:48AM -0700, Joe Saphiloff wrote: > Can anybody tell me if talk has started/resumed 'bout this group? The SHORT VERSION of the story is: E-SPUG died a natural death due to the indifference of the East-siders. The LONGER VERSION of the story is: After Asim Jalis retired as group leader, nobody was willing to take over the leadership of the group. Although there are plenty of Perl'ers on the Eastside, and the meetings were very well attended when The Damian was the speaker, there was always trouble recruiting speakers from the ranks of E-SPUG itself, or getting anybody to put any energy into running the group. It might be possible to revitalize the group if a new leader were to emerge, perhaps with some variation " of the "vendor as speaker" model of meeting design ... if anybody cares enough to make it happen. -Tim ======================================================== | Tim Maher, Ph.D. Tel: (206) 781-UNIX | | SPUG Founder & Leader Email: spug@halcyon.com | | Seattle Perl Users Group HTTP: seattleperl.com | ======================================================== > > -- > "Let your brain go and see what it brings back" > Joe Saphilof > joesaphiloff@onebox.com - email > (425) 586-6719 - voice mail/fax > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > -- *=========================================================================* | Dr. Tim Maher, CEO, Consultix (206) 781-UNIX/8649; ask for FAX# | | Email: tim@consultix-inc.com Web: http://www.consultix-inc.com | | TIM MAHER: Unix/Perl DAMIAN CONWAY: OO Perl BRIAN INGERSON: Inline.pm | | CLASSES-> Minimal Perl: 9/17; Perl+Mods: 9/18; UNIX: 9/24; Inline: 11/6 | *=========================================================================* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From kevin at allpoetry.com Wed Aug 22 15:44:57 2001 From: kevin at allpoetry.com (Kevin Watt) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How was it? What did you guys talk about? Sorry I couldn't make it. Ciao, Kevin -------------- Kevin Watt, AllPoetry.com Community manager: Poets Unite! kevin@allpoetry.com "Here, write it, or it will be erased by the wind." - Isabel Allende - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From warner at oz.net Wed Aug 22 15:17:24 2001 From: warner at oz.net (Marion Scott Warner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: The unemployed Message-ID: <3B841354.DCB6559C@oz.net> Well, it seems half of us at the meeting are unemployed, and we talked about experiences looking for work and approaches to looking for work. Scott W. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From leary at nwlink.com Wed Aug 22 16:16:38 2001 From: leary at nwlink.com (Michael Leary) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! In-Reply-To: ; from kevin@allpoetry.com on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 01:44:57PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010822141638.B13863@jean.nwlink.com> I whined about the job market. A secret cabal was formed. Colin(?) gave some good info on finding unadvertised Perl jobs (Boeing, WaMu, and perhaps Safeco). Hot Perl skills to have: mod_perl, DBI, SQL, XML, XSLT, bioperl -- but also: a subject matter expertise that isn't CS related (biology, accounting, insurance, etc.). http://jobsearch.wamu.newjobs.com/ http://jobsearch.boeing.newjobs.com/ Opinion was divided on the value of a BS degree. "cowboy" is a *good* thing On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 01:44:57PM -0700, Kevin Watt wrote: > How was it? What did you guys talk about? Sorry I couldn't make it. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Wed Aug 22 17:01:54 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl/Java Developer Needed Message-ID: <20010822150154.A5039@timji.consultix.wa.com> Hi all: I have two openings for Java/Perl Developer: Required Skill Set Java Developer (3 - 5 years) Experience with Perl required Experience with Exostarr (Mercator) commerce gateway a huge plus, but not required J2EE desired but not required Permanent Position - W2 status Placement through recruiter Location: Bellevue - no telecommuting Consulting Services Please respond to this email if you are interested. Thanks. Karen Fenstermacher windowmaker@pioneernet.net - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cmeyer at helvella.org Wed Aug 22 17:06:26 2001 From: cmeyer at helvella.org (Colin Meyer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! In-Reply-To: <20010822141638.B13863@jean.nwlink.com> References: <20010822141638.B13863@jean.nwlink.com> Message-ID: <20010822150626.L6339@hobart.helvella.org> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 02:16:38PM -0700, Michael Leary wrote: > I whined about the job market. A secret cabal was formed. Colin(?) gave > some good info on finding unadvertised Perl jobs (Boeing, WaMu, and > perhaps Safeco). Hot Perl skills to have: mod_perl, DBI, SQL, XML, XSLT, > bioperl -- but also: a subject matter expertise that isn't CS related > (biology, accounting, insurance, etc.). While there are several (I've talked to at least three) bioinformatics shops in town using Perl, none that I've talked to actually use the bioperl project itself. They use inhouse softwares instead. -C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From joesaphiloff at onebox.com Wed Aug 22 17:15:43 2001 From: joesaphiloff at onebox.com (Joe Saphiloff) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: E-Spug Message-ID: <20010822221543.SLQS21043.mta09.onebox.com@onebox.com> Interesting, I will consider it and post back after the weekend. -- "Let your brain go and see what it brings back" Joe Saphilof joesaphiloff@onebox.com - email (425) 586-6719 - voice mail/fax ---- Colin Meyer wrote: > On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 09:24:48AM -0700, Joe Saphiloff wrote: > > Can anybody tell me if talk has started/resumed 'bout this group? > > It sounds like you are volunteering to be the next emporer of E-SPUG? > > ;-), > -C. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From alyssa at atuin.net Wed Aug 22 18:41:44 2001 From: alyssa at atuin.net (Alyssa Harding) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! References: <20010822141638.B13863@jean.nwlink.com> Message-ID: <3B844338.8080501@atuin.net> Sorry I couldn't be at the meeting last night - sounds like it was a lot of fun. Maybe we should consider having a 'social' meeting at more regular intervals (like every six months or so?). The University of Washington also has good postings sometimes (and they don't seem to post them on the job sites). They don't always pay as much as you might want but benefits are good and include the ability to take classes for free. They're also good for building your resume, your confidence and/or your skills :) http://www.washington.edu/admin/employment/ A. -- Alyssa Harding ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Dock-a-loodle-fod!" -- Dyslexic roosters are a sad sight (Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man) Michael Leary wrote: >I whined about the job market. A secret cabal was formed. Colin(?) gave >some good info on finding unadvertised Perl jobs (Boeing, WaMu, and >perhaps Safeco). Hot Perl skills to have: mod_perl, DBI, SQL, XML, XSLT, >bioperl -- but also: a subject matter expertise that isn't CS related >(biology, accounting, insurance, etc.). > >http://jobsearch.wamu.newjobs.com/ >http://jobsearch.boeing.newjobs.com/ > >Opinion was divided on the value of a BS degree. > > > >"cowboy" is a *good* thing > >On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 01:44:57PM -0700, Kevin Watt wrote: > >>How was it? What did you guys talk about? Sorry I couldn't make it. >> > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cjcollier at sinclair.net Thu Aug 23 10:46:45 2001 From: cjcollier at sinclair.net (C.J. Collier) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! In-Reply-To: <3B844338.8080501@atuin.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Alyssa Harding wrote: > Sorry I couldn't be at the meeting last night - sounds like it was a lot > of fun. Maybe we should consider having a 'social' meeting at more > regular intervals (like every six months or so?). We were also discussing 'social' meetings and most of us at the meeting agreed that they should happen at more regular intervals, but much more frequently than every six months; more like every six (or seven :) days. I volunteered my house and facilities (of which include home-brew kegs, a bar-b-q and plenty of extra hub space) for one of these git-togethers. We've probably got room for 10 - 15 people. If anyone's interested, please RSVP so I can fill the kegs, clean the house prepare the place for socializing and perl talk. C.J. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jimfl at colltech.com Thu Aug 23 11:06:28 2001 From: jimfl at colltech.com (Jim Flanagan) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! In-Reply-To: <20010822150626.L6339@hobart.helvella.org> Message-ID: <10571408.3207546388@[192.168.1.101]> --Also Sprache Colin Meyer On Wednesday, August 22, 2001 3:06 PM -0700: > While there are several (I've talked to at least three) > bioinformatics shops in town using Perl, none that I've talked to > actually use the bioperl project itself. They use inhouse > softwares instead. In my experience, biologists, more than scientists in other disciplines, tend be poster children for Not-Invented-Here Syndrome. Nuclear physicists and statisticians, for example, each have a huge corpus of shared code and tools. -- Jim Flanagan Collective Technologies jimfl@colltech.com http://www.colltech.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From greg at mccarroll.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 12:28:10 2001 From: greg at mccarroll.demon.co.uk (Greg McCarroll) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! In-Reply-To: <10571408.3207546388@[192.168.1.101]>; from jimfl@colltech.com on Thu, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:06:28AM -0700 References: <20010822150626.L6339@hobart.helvella.org> <10571408.3207546388@[192.168.1.101]> Message-ID: <20010823182810.A29214@mccarroll.demon.co.uk> * Jim Flanagan (jimfl@colltech.com) wrote: > > In my experience, biologists, more than scientists in other disciplines, > tend be poster children for Not-Invented-Here Syndrome. Nuclear > physicists and statisticians, for example, each have a huge corpus of > shared code and tools. > <;-)> Probably because its not a proper science and the coding part is the closest they get to proper science ;-) -- Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From davidpa at avaya.com Thu Aug 23 12:40:58 2001 From: davidpa at avaya.com (Patterson, David S (Pat)) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! Message-ID: Programming: 1 part science, 1 part art, 1 part recreation. Mix well, try not to agitate. Enjoy. --- "Stack Overflow: Too many pancakes..." D. S. "Pat" Patterson Software Engineer Avaya, Inc. 6464 185th Ave NE Redmond, WA 98052-6736 425-558-8672 davidpa@avaya.com -----Original Message----- From: Greg McCarroll [mailto:greg@mccarroll.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:28 AM To: Jim Flanagan Cc: Colin Meyer; spug-list@pm.org Subject: Re: SPUG: Meeting Tonight!! * Jim Flanagan (jimfl@colltech.com) wrote: > > In my experience, biologists, more than scientists in other disciplines, > tend be poster children for Not-Invented-Here Syndrome. Nuclear > physicists and statisticians, for example, each have a huge corpus of > shared code and tools. > <;-)> Probably because its not a proper science and the coding part is the closest they get to proper science ;-) -- Greg McCarroll http://217.34.97.146/~gem/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From bill at celestial.com Fri Aug 24 12:56:14 2001 From: bill at celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: ftp.spu.edu CPAN archives gone? Message-ID: <20010824105614.A29530@barryg.mi.celestial.com> Are the SPU CPAN archives gone? The last couple of times I've gotten packages, this connection has failed. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.'' -- H. L. Mencken - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From markw at horvitznewspapers.net Fri Aug 24 13:50:43 2001 From: markw at horvitznewspapers.net (Mark Wagner) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: ftp.spu.edu CPAN archives gone? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:56:14 PDT." <20010824105614.A29530@barryg.mi.celestial.com> Message-ID: <200108241850.f7OIohC40223@veda.horvitznewspapers.net> > Are the SPU CPAN archives gone? The last couple of times I've > gotten packages, this connection has failed. >From : We are no longer a CPAN Mirror site. Please see http://www.cpan.org/ for other sites. --cut here-- I used to use (Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon) but was having some problems with it. I have given up and just pick the first 10 on the U.S. list and let it grind away. -- Mark Wagner markw@horvitznewspapers.net - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From seppy at mail.tanzatech.com Sun Aug 26 22:19:26 2001 From: seppy at mail.tanzatech.com (Jafaar Nyang'oro) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: JSP, Sybase questions..... Message-ID: <200108262319.AA966459726@mail.tanzatech.com> Could anyone help me answer the following? JSP: --- 1. Session variables (and objects) ie., how can you store info/objects that are persistent as the users goes from page to page (ie, a connection object to the DB, that a user is logged on, etc) 2. How can you pass info from a browers and get it in your JSP (ie. post, get parameter, form fields, javascript clientside "onclick" event, etc.) 3. How to start an typical JSP engine with parameters (ie., what database and users to connect as) and how can JSP obtain these JSP engine paramaters? Parameter files. 4. If you have a vector with 5 objects in it, how can you copy element 3 to element 5 Sybase: ------ Sybases @@error, @@identity, @@spid, sp_who, sp_lock, sysobjects table, syscolumns table Thanks. ../seppy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From seppy at mail.tanzatech.com Sun Aug 26 22:19:26 2001 From: seppy at mail.tanzatech.com (Jafaar Nyang'oro) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: JSP, Sybase questions..... Message-ID: <200108262319.AA966459726@mail.tanzatech.com> Could anyone help me answer the following? JSP: --- 1. Session variables (and objects) ie., how can you store info/objects that are persistent as the users goes from page to page (ie, a connection object to the DB, that a user is logged on, etc) 2. How can you pass info from a browers and get it in your JSP (ie. post, get parameter, form fields, javascript clientside "onclick" event, etc.) 3. How to start an typical JSP engine with parameters (ie., what database and users to connect as) and how can JSP obtain these JSP engine paramaters? Parameter files. 4. If you have a vector with 5 objects in it, how can you copy element 3 to element 5 Sybase: ------ Sybases @@error, @@identity, @@spid, sp_who, sp_lock, sysobjects table, syscolumns table Thanks. ../seppy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From cjcollier at sinclair.net Mon Aug 27 23:37:07 2001 From: cjcollier at sinclair.net (C.J. Collier) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Social Perl Meetings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Heya all, My roommates just returned from their honeymoon, and I discussed this with them. It looks like it'll take 5 weeks to brew a batch, and they said they think we can provide catoring to a group of 15 or so. I'm going to order the beer makin' stuff tomorrow, then I'll let y'all know when we everything's ready. Since it's going to be over a month before we're ready here, does anyone else have some space they can offer for a get-together for this week? As this whole thing is a little off-topic from normal Spug traffic, should we set up a mailing list for this kind of discussion? It's pretty common for the local .pm group to be more of a social get-together thing, so my suggestion would be to bring the Seattle.pm list to life. What's everybody think? C.J. On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, C.J. Collier wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Alyssa Harding wrote: > > > Sorry I couldn't be at the meeting last night - sounds like it was a lot > > of fun. Maybe we should consider having a 'social' meeting at more > > regular intervals (like every six months or so?). > > We were also discussing 'social' meetings and most of us at the > meeting agreed that they should happen at more regular intervals, but > much more frequently than every six months; more like every six (or > seven :) days. > > I volunteered my house and facilities (of which include home-brew > kegs, a bar-b-q and plenty of extra hub space) for one of these > git-togethers. We've probably got room for 10 - 15 people. If > anyone's interested, please RSVP so I can fill the kegs, clean the > house prepare the place for socializing and perl talk. > > C.J. > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com Tue Aug 28 00:30:58 2001 From: jdevlin at stadiumdistrict.com (Joe Devlin) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Social Perl Meetings References: Message-ID: <002901c12f82$9e842980$242b3fce@oemcomputer> I don't drink at all, and don't spend any time thinking about it for myself. I can still remember the good ol' days when I did, which probably means I didn't drink enough then, anyway..... It seems to help a lot of people to have a couple of beer kegs. More power to you. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: C.J. Collier To: Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:37 PM Subject: SPUG: Social Perl Meetings > Heya all, > > My roommates just returned from their honeymoon, and I discussed this > with them. It looks like it'll take 5 weeks to brew a batch, and they > said they think we can provide catoring to a group of 15 or so. I'm > going to order the beer makin' stuff tomorrow, then I'll let y'all > know when we everything's ready. > > Since it's going to be over a month before we're ready here, does > anyone else have some space they can offer for a get-together for this > week? > > As this whole thing is a little off-topic from normal Spug traffic, > should we set up a mailing list for this kind of discussion? It's > pretty common for the local .pm group to be more of a social > get-together thing, so my suggestion would be to bring the Seattle.pm > list to life. What's everybody think? > > C.J. > > On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, C.J. Collier wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Alyssa Harding wrote: > > > > > Sorry I couldn't be at the meeting last night - sounds like it was a lot > > > of fun. Maybe we should consider having a 'social' meeting at more > > > regular intervals (like every six months or so?). > > > > We were also discussing 'social' meetings and most of us at the > > meeting agreed that they should happen at more regular intervals, but > > much more frequently than every six months; more like every six (or > > seven :) days. > > > > I volunteered my house and facilities (of which include home-brew > > kegs, a bar-b-q and plenty of extra hub space) for one of these > > git-togethers. We've probably got room for 10 - 15 people. If > > anyone's interested, please RSVP so I can fill the kegs, clean the > > house prepare the place for socializing and perl talk. > > > > C.J. > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org > Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL > Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address > For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest > Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From jay at Scherrer.com Tue Aug 28 09:04:07 2001 From: jay at Scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:13 2004 Subject: SPUG: Social Perl Meetings References: Message-ID: <3B8BA4D7.C72C9D58@scherrer.com> "C.J. Collier" wrote: > Heya all, > > My roommates just returned from their honeymoon, and I discussed this > with them. It looks like it'll take 5 weeks to brew a batch, and they > said they think we can provide catoring to a group of 15 or so. I'm > going to order the beer makin' stuff tomorrow, then I'll let y'all > know when we everything's ready. > > Since it's going to be over a month before we're ready here, does > anyone else have some space they can offer for a get-together for this > week? > > As this whole thing is a little off-topic from normal Spug traffic, > should we set up a mailing list for this kind of discussion? It's > pretty common for the local .pm group to be more of a social > get-together thing, so my suggestion would be to bring the Seattle.pm > list to life. What's everybody think? > > C.J. > Do you use a special script for the batch? Jay - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/ From tim at consultix-inc.com Fri Aug 31 12:03:17 2001 From: tim at consultix-inc.com (Tim Maher/CONSULTIX) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:08:14 2004 Subject: SPUG: Perl/UNIX/mySql gig Message-ID: <20010831100317.C28673@timji.consultix.wa.com> Danube Technologies, Inc a smaller local custom software applications company which has WA S Corporation status, is looking for part time (20 hrs/week) permanent position programmers (W-2 status) with the following skill set: Applications Dev: Perl, PHP, Java, C, C++ OS Knowledge: Unix?(Linux, FreeBSD, etc) Database Dev: MySQL, PostgreSQL, Special Skills: excellent problem solvers, friendly, a positive attitude, and a willingness to learn to develop custom applications for a variety of interesting software projects(Unix database dev, larger ecommerce, data mining, custom plug-ins (Photoshop, Outlook, Quickbooks), SOW writing, etc). We offer flexible schedules to meet your needs, however NO telecommuting. Our corporate office is location in the Ballard district of Seattle. No available stock options. Candidates deal directly with Danube Technologies, not a recruiter. Salary = dependent on skill set. No recruiters please. If interested in joining us for fast paced development work, please send your resumes to lszalvay@danubetech.com or check us out online at www.danubetech.com Best regards, The Danube Tech Team. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POST TO: spug-list@pm.org PROBLEMS: owner-spug-list@pm.org Subscriptions; Email to majordomo@pm.org: ACTION LIST EMAIL Replace ACTION by subscribe or unsubscribe, EMAIL by your Email-address For daily traffic, use spug-list for LIST ; for weekly, spug-list-digest Seattle Perl Users Group (SPUG) Home Page: http://zipcon.net/spug/