From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Wed Feb  2 21:03:57 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 21:03:57 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Learn Python The Hard Way
Message-ID: <AANLkTim-ZyA2Vc0DGESxPT8mxhK4GDDNov+Z-djnH6Zk@mail.gmail.com>

Our February meeting will be on Tuesday the 22nd at CitizenSpace.

Zed Shaw will turn the tables on our usual Perl centric meetings by
giving us a few lessons in learning Python the hard way. Zed is a well
known software developer who is noted for developing the Ruby
webserver Mongrel, the successor Mongrel2, the Lua based framework
Tir, and autho.me.

RSVP at Meetup -
http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Perl-Mongers/events/16408904/


Learn Python the Hard Way - http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index

Zed Shaw - http://zedshaw.com/

From Paul.Makepeace at realprogrammers.com  Thu Feb  3 03:56:57 2011
From: Paul.Makepeace at realprogrammers.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 11:56:57 +0000
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Learn Python The Hard Way
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim-ZyA2Vc0DGESxPT8mxhK4GDDNov+Z-djnH6Zk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim-ZyA2Vc0DGESxPT8mxhK4GDDNov+Z-djnH6Zk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik6Fkm-GduQbCmQXuX-MB2SaJ-GicxaiFWjTN0B@mail.gmail.com>

Aw man, wish I could go to this - should be pretty entertaining.

I'd highly recommend learning some python; I ended up with a much
richer view of perl as a result. It's nice seeing elegant solutions to
problems that even today perl hasn't figured out. Also, Zed Shaw is a
character

Paul

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 05:03, Fred Moyer <fred at redhotpenguin.com> wrote:
> Our February meeting will be on Tuesday the 22nd at CitizenSpace.
>
> Zed Shaw will turn the tables on our usual Perl centric meetings by
> giving us a few lessons in learning Python the hard way. Zed is a well
> known software developer who is noted for developing the Ruby
> webserver Mongrel, the successor Mongrel2, the Lua based framework
> Tir, and autho.me.
>
> RSVP at Meetup -
> http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Perl-Mongers/events/16408904/
>
>
> Learn Python the Hard Way - http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index
>
> Zed Shaw - http://zedshaw.com/
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm
>

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Thu Feb  3 19:15:26 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 19:15:26 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Learn Python The Hard Way
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik6Fkm-GduQbCmQXuX-MB2SaJ-GicxaiFWjTN0B@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim-ZyA2Vc0DGESxPT8mxhK4GDDNov+Z-djnH6Zk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik6Fkm-GduQbCmQXuX-MB2SaJ-GicxaiFWjTN0B@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiknfBfK6P3jnhokmR8oM_xpg3cjZ-_Rqh-6LX29@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe we can webcast it - anyone have experience doing that?

We may extend the meeting invitation to another programming based
group which an organizer of has expressed interest in.  So if you are
on the fence about coming to this meeting, go ahead and RSVP yes, and
I'll send the usual day before reminder email and you can change your
RSVP if you want to.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:56 AM, Paul Makepeace
<Paul.Makepeace at realprogrammers.com> wrote:
> Aw man, wish I could go to this - should be pretty entertaining.
>
> I'd highly recommend learning some python; I ended up with a much
> richer view of perl as a result. It's nice seeing elegant solutions to
> problems that even today perl hasn't figured out. Also, Zed Shaw is a
> character
>
> Paul
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 05:03, Fred Moyer <fred at redhotpenguin.com> wrote:
>> Our February meeting will be on Tuesday the 22nd at CitizenSpace.
>>
>> Zed Shaw will turn the tables on our usual Perl centric meetings by
>> giving us a few lessons in learning Python the hard way. Zed is a well
>> known software developer who is noted for developing the Ruby
>> webserver Mongrel, the successor Mongrel2, the Lua based framework
>> Tir, and autho.me.
>>
>> RSVP at Meetup -
>> http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Perl-Mongers/events/16408904/
>>
>>
>> Learn Python the Hard Way - http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index
>>
>> Zed Shaw - http://zedshaw.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
>> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm
>>
>

From josh at agliodbs.com  Fri Feb  4 13:24:40 2011
From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 13:24:40 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Learn Python The Hard Way
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiknfBfK6P3jnhokmR8oM_xpg3cjZ-_Rqh-6LX29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim-ZyA2Vc0DGESxPT8mxhK4GDDNov+Z-djnH6Zk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik6Fkm-GduQbCmQXuX-MB2SaJ-GicxaiFWjTN0B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiknfBfK6P3jnhokmR8oM_xpg3cjZ-_Rqh-6LX29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D4C6E98.3060806@agliodbs.com>

On 2/3/11 7:15 PM, Fred Moyer wrote:
> Maybe we can webcast it - anyone have experience doing that?

We've used UStream and other sites before effectively.  We stopped doing
it though because we could never tell in advance whether we'd have
adequate internet or not.

-- 
                                  -- Josh Berkus
                                     PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
                                     http://www.pgexperts.com

From extasia at extasia.org  Fri Feb  4 13:39:29 2011
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 13:39:29 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Learn Python The Hard Way
In-Reply-To: <4D4C6E98.3060806@agliodbs.com>
References: <AANLkTim-ZyA2Vc0DGESxPT8mxhK4GDDNov+Z-djnH6Zk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik6Fkm-GduQbCmQXuX-MB2SaJ-GicxaiFWjTN0B@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiknfBfK6P3jnhokmR8oM_xpg3cjZ-_Rqh-6LX29@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D4C6E98.3060806@agliodbs.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinjYiAooQEYDj03qfKVKUtgNDz0csjO9wbgvZYy@mail.gmail.com>

what about simply making a video or sound recording of it and then
posting it on the web?

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Josh Berkus <josh at agliodbs.com> wrote:
> We've used UStream and other sites before effectively. ?We stopped doing
> it though because we could never tell in advance whether we'd have
> adequate internet or not.

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Tue Feb  8 08:33:04 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:33:04 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Fwd: [ANNOUNCE] mod_perl 2.0.5
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim4HjZQzxAYxpi8mz1kbv5PwaibcXLmvxvAW-dB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim4HjZQzxAYxpi8mz1kbv5PwaibcXLmvxvAW-dB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik0wY1uD8T7DWx0aZhwudi9mxe-hEHuhhpJfrXu@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone on this list using mod_perl 2 might want to upgrade to this
newest version, first release in 2.5 years.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Fred Moyer <phred at apache.org>
Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 5:55 PM
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] mod_perl 2.0.5
To: announce at perl.apache.org, mod_perl list <modperl at perl.apache.org>,
mod_perl Dev <dev at perl.apache.org>


mod_perl 2.0.5 is here!

Thanks to the many, many contributors to this version. ?Please see the
summary of changes below, along with a special dedication for this
release to Randy Kobes.

You can get mod_perl 2.0.5 at one of the following urls, including the CPAN:

http://perl.apache.org/download/index.html

http://apache.org/dist/perl/mod_perl-2.0.5.tar.gz
http://apache.org/dist/perl/mod_perl-2.0.5.tar.gz.asc (pgp sig)

md5: 03d01d135a122bd8cebd0cd5b185d674

---------------------------------------------------

The mod_perl PMC dedicates this release of mod_perl to Randy Kobes, who
passed away in September 2010. ?Randy was a member of the mod_perl project
management committee and a co-author of the mod_perl Developer's Cookbook.
His work helped many Windows mod_perl users. His work with ppm files, and
Win32 perl users will be sorely missed. He was kind, bright, and always
willing to lend a hand on the mod_perl user's list.

Prepare modperl for the upcoming perl 5.14 [Torsten Foertsch]

Add lib/ModPerl/MethodLookup.pm to MANIFEST via lib/ModPerl/Manifest.pm
RT #48103 reported by MARKLE at cpan.org
[Fred Moyer]

PerlIOApache_write() now throws an APR::Error object, rather than just a string
error, if modperl_wbucket_write() fails.
[Steve Hay]

Authentication tests fail with LWP 5.815 and later
[Doug Schrag]

Concise test won't perform unless StatusTerse is set to ON
[Doug Schrag]

Look for a usable apxs in $ENV{PATH} if all other options fail, then
prompt the user for one.
[Phred]

Work around bootstrap warnings when Apache2::BuildConfig has not been
created yet.
[Phred]

Remove Apache::test compatibility (part of mod_perl 1.2.7), that code
causes build issues and is 4 versions out of date.
[Phred]

Make sure perl is built either with multiplicity and ithreads or without
both [Theory, Torsten]

Support for "install_vendor" and "install_site" make targets [Torsten]

Run tests on bundled pure perl Apache::* modules [Gozer, Phred]

Implement a mini-preprocess language for map-files in xs/maps.
[Torsten Foertsch]

Implement APR::Socket::fileno [Torsten Foertsch]

Export PROXYREQ_RESPONSE, a missing PROXYREQ_* constant [Gozer]

Make sure standard file descriptors are preserved by the perl-script
handler [Torsten Foertsch]

Fix the filter init handler attribute check in
modperl_filter_resolve_init_handler() [Torsten Foertsch]

Make sure buffer is a valid SV in modperl_filter_read() [Torsten Foertsch]

Move modperl_response_finish() out of modperl_response_handler_run in
mod_perl.c [Torsten Foertsch]

"MODPERL_INC= now correctly supported as an argument to Makefile.PL"
[Torsten Foertsch]

Fix an XSS issue in Apache2::Status reported by Richard J. Brain
<richard at procheckup.com>. [Torsten Foertsch]

Add NOTICE file to the distribution. [Joe Schaefer]

Make sure Apache2::RequestIO::read doesn't clear the buffer on end of
file and handle negative offsets and offsets that are larger than
the current string length. [Torsten Foertsch]

Fix a problem that could make APR::XSLoader and Apache2::XSLoader
load the wrong shared library. [Torsten Foertsch]

Fix compilation when using a non-threaded APR.
[Gozer, Philip M. Gollucci]

Make sure mod_perl's own ChildInitHandlers are run before user
supplied ones. This fixes the incorrectly reported value of $$
at ChildInit time [Gozer]

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Wed Feb  9 11:47:47 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:47:47 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [blogs.perl.org] Looking for a Movable Type hacker
Message-ID: <AANLkTim9hzV_KcHiGxo3MZ1ziCYenuqgiVBnNQHPDAVo@mail.gmail.com>

I saw this on blogs.perl.org, thought I would pass it along since SF
seems to be a nexus for Movable Type.

http://blogs.perl.org/users/gabor_szabo/2011/02/looking-for-a-movable-type-hacker.html

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Wed Feb  9 12:09:45 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 12:09:45 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Learn Python The Hard Way next week
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=qentWtgB6LpAAuvF-9iBBGbO_JfHUVBMbZO7w@mail.gmail.com>

We'll be opening up attendance to a couple other groups today for Zed
Shaw's Python talk next week, so if you think you might attend, please
RSVP soon:

http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Perl-Mongers/events/16408904/

I've capped the RSVP limit at 75; perhaps we may not get that many,
but so far the RSVP count has been at a record.

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Wed Feb  9 12:10:18 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 12:10:18 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Learn Python The Hard Way next week
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=qentWtgB6LpAAuvF-9iBBGbO_JfHUVBMbZO7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=qentWtgB6LpAAuvF-9iBBGbO_JfHUVBMbZO7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim1vg7WLF83rS1wq5bA_5yBKPWJASP_UvCJTe3C@mail.gmail.com>

Whoops - it isn't next week, but in two weeks :)

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Fred Moyer <fred at redhotpenguin.com> wrote:
> We'll be opening up attendance to a couple other groups today for Zed
> Shaw's Python talk next week, so if you think you might attend, please
> RSVP soon:
>
> http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Perl-Mongers/events/16408904/
>
> I've capped the RSVP limit at 75; perhaps we may not get that many,
> but so far the RSVP count has been at a record.
>

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Fri Feb 11 15:32:47 2011
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:32:47 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Modern Perl book for free
Message-ID: <D354C136-C396-4918-85A7-5333CACFA680@highwire.stanford.edu>

In case you haven't been following chromatic's crusade to teach people how to write better, more modern, Perl code, his book on the subject is not only out, it's freely available as a PDF or ePub file:
	http://www.onyxneon.com/books/modern_perl/index.html

He's a good writer and covers the subject pretty well. I've learned some interesting things already and I'm still only a few chapters in. The book is accessible to newcomers and old hands alike, so take a look-see. 

(The companion blog is pretty good too: http://www.modernperlbooks.com )

Spread the word: a free Perl book!

-- Mike Friedman
______________________________________________________________________________
Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | friedman at highwire.stanford.edu


From josh at agliodbs.com  Wed Feb 16 16:18:29 2011
From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:18:29 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Need passenger for SCALE
Message-ID: <4D5C6955.6030005@agliodbs.com>

All,

I'm driving to SCALE9x next week.  I'm looking for a passenger to keep
me awake on the drive.

I'll be leaving Thursday and returning Monday.

-- 
                                  -- Josh Berkus
                                     PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
                                     http://www.pgexperts.com

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Wed Feb 16 18:59:57 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:59:57 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [meeting] Need a few volunteers next Tuesday
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=OtYoJsp11hCL1F0+=FZCGmzVii896=_s+7msz@mail.gmail.com>

We need some volunteers for the meeting next Tuesday.  We have a
record number of RSVPs for this talk, and several folks from the Ruby
and PostgreSQL Meetup groups have RSVPd to this event.

We've had a couple requests to webcast this event, so if anyone wants
to volunteer to setup a LiveStream cast, check out this url and let me
know if you want to take it on -
https://secure.livestream.com/myaccount/launchchannel

Also, we'll need a few people for event hosts (show up 15 minutes
early, help organize, crowd control, setup chairs, handout nametags
(boooo, but we need them this time) ).  Volunteer and get a Perl
t-shirt in your size.  To volunteer, $self->mail( to => m/Joe Brenner
| Me | List / ), or show up 15 minutes early and help out.

Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next Tuesday.

http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Perl-Mongers/events/16408904/

From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Thu Feb 17 13:31:55 2011
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joseph Brenner)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 13:31:55 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] General-topic Lightning Talks tonight at Noisebridge
Message-ID: <AANLkTimbdya=+ebFi1iZNjbSme5dtOWhBCn3HepD_2i_@mail.gmail.com>

I'm planning on going to the the "Lightning Talks" tonight at 8pm over
at Noisebridge in San Francisco. These are 5 minute talks on
un-restricted topics, not necessarily software-related.   The location
is on Mission Street, around a block and a half south of the 16th
Street bart station:

   https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Noisebridge
   https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Five_Minutes_of_Fame

We've been kicking around the idea of holding some sf-perl events over
at Noisebridge.  Take a look at the space and tell us what you think.

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Fri Feb 18 11:13:53 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 11:13:53 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Fwd: Books and News from the O'Reilly User Group
	Program--Feb
In-Reply-To: <1298056218.30101.0.691122@post.oreilly.com>
References: <1298056218.30101.0.691122@post.oreilly.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWFz+da__PoUkkwcMd5WuzCh-xVsL1+1ERYt2c@mail.gmail.com>

Some interesting links, including this sproutcore webcast:

SproutCore: Writing Code for a Multi-Device World,
Presented by Yehuda Katz
February 22, 2011  10am PT
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1z3goo1ameik0ac8gg9uh8hf1itlnci4i1a35dv30


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marsee Henon & Jon Johns <usergroups at oreilly.com>
Date: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:10 AM
Subject: Books and News from the O'Reilly User Group Program--Feb
To: fred at redhotpenguin.com



View this information as HTML in your browser, click here:
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1z7g0tt8kvc9orgmkf6hkltpcbt02kef46ul6e34g

Hi there,

The conference season is upon us. This week O'Reilly wrapped up our
sold-out Tools of Change for Publishing Conference. Highlights include
author Margaret Atwood's keynote. See what the publishing industry is
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We're also getting ready for Web 2.0 Expo, OSCON, TechEd, Mix,
Railsconf, Where, Velocity, and more. Tell us what conferences you're
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Follow the daily deals from Microsoft Press, O'Reilly Media,
and Make Magazine. Find them on twitter at @oreillymedia or
follow the RSS Feeds below:

O'Reilly Media:
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Microsoft Press:
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1z63vagi0eme5g33ui8bbq9lf8adr0oj0grf63dqg
Make Magazine
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1z6jbvpccmacbueg99a96a75icaa623abcrmh9kl8

O'Reilly webcasts happening soon:

SproutCore: Writing Code for a Multi-Device World,
Presented by Yehuda Katz
February 22, 2011 ?10am PT
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1z3goo1ameik0ac8gg9uh8hf1itlnci4i1a35dv30

Essential Troubleshooting Tips for Windows 7, Presented by Mike Halsey
February 24, 2011, 10am PT
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1zr7vrgjtora3rluvs9ggd6jkgb48ic13iu4j2gd8


Here's our Webcast page for on-demand videos of past webcasts and more
upcoming live events.
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1ztpk4olejiqrl1pdjli1rqkdlbotmht317hpv8q8

Thanks,

-- Marsee Henon and Jon Johns


P.S. Want to hang out? Here are the places we'll be. If you're attending
or live in the area and have time to get together, please let us know.

-Feb 25-27, Southern California Linux Expo (SCALE), Los Angeles, CA
http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1zadj4j3l05l67a26fgkfrf3vr0o1mgua57jfrm5g

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-Apr 12-14, Microsoft Mix, Las Vegas, NV
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Exploring North American Landscapes (Rocky Nook)
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The Panasonic Lumix DMC-G2 (Rocky Nook)
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McCullough and Berglund on Mastering Git
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Integrating Services with Flex 4 Apps
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Great Bash
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Event-Driven Applications with Flex 4
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Building Flex Applications with Spark Components
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MCTS Self-Paced Training Kit (Exam 70-511):
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Serial Photography (Rocky Nook)
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From gatorreina at gmail.com  Sat Feb 19 07:30:57 2011
From: gatorreina at gmail.com (Richard Reina)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 09:30:57 -0600
Subject: [sf-perl] Writing a perl program for windows.
Message-ID: <AANLkTim2+vDA0tza+p-dbcN-Jj1HeZA-xQviUrLQZXGa@mail.gmail.com>

I have been asked to write a program that makes it very easy for our
contractors in the field to scan and email us documents from the
field. Something that the user can download and install with a few
clicks and that  assumes no more user proficiency than being able to
plug the scanner into the computer and follow prompts. Since 99% of
our contractors use windows I have to write it for windows. I am an
intermediate perl programmer at best but and willing to roll up my
sleeves and do whatever it takes. I was wondering however, if anyone
had any advice on where to start?

Thanks,

Richard

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

From Adam.Morgan at safeway.com  Sat Feb 19 07:42:25 2011
From: Adam.Morgan at safeway.com (Adam Morgan)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 08:42:25 -0700
Subject: [sf-perl] Writing a perl program for windows.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2+vDA0tza+p-dbcN-Jj1HeZA-xQviUrLQZXGa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5113C869AE8FD844B3589414188D35A905D9E803@PHITPR05EXC01.safeway01.ad.safeway.com>

I hope I am not missing something here, but wouldn't that be something
that the scanner hardware should come with? If I bought a scanner for my
computer I would expect software and drivers, that achieve exactly what
you describe, to be supplied with the scanner.

-----Original Message-----
From: sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+adam.morgan=safeway.com at pm.org
[mailto:sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+adam.morgan=safeway.com at pm.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Reina
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:31 AM
To: sanfrancisco-pm at pm.org
Subject: [sf-perl] Writing a perl program for windows.

I have been asked to write a program that makes it very easy for our
contractors in the field to scan and email us documents from the
field. Something that the user can download and install with a few
clicks and that  assumes no more user proficiency than being able to
plug the scanner into the computer and follow prompts. Since 99% of
our contractors use windows I have to write it for windows. I am an
intermediate perl programmer at best but and willing to roll up my
sleeves and do whatever it takes. I was wondering however, if anyone
had any advice on where to start?

Thanks,

Richard

-- 
Sent from my mobile device
_______________________________________________
SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
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http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm


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From mgrimes at cpan.org  Sat Feb 19 12:52:57 2011
From: mgrimes at cpan.org (Mark Grimes)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:52:57 -0500
Subject: [sf-perl] Writing a perl program for windows.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7pajYFDWyProY3g1dAZuGH8U0bDcEHZdGvSFG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim2+vDA0tza+p-dbcN-Jj1HeZA-xQviUrLQZXGa@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimfj5asSzKYnka4aHQnC4R2jf03Da5UbR5wmRe6@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik7pajYFDWyProY3g1dAZuGH8U0bDcEHZdGvSFG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikEwkXjPrmsS1yzV3-H8TQkmkv_D_sBezbFMO4w@mail.gmail.com>

Par packer will bundle perl and the required modules into a single
executable.  The result is large but it makes it easy.

You could also look into bundling the app with strawberry perl. I've heard
that's possible.
 On Feb 19, 2011 3:24 PM, "Richard Reina" <gatorreina at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Thanks for the reply. Assuming the scanner is working would the user
> be able to install and run the program on windows or would they first
> have to install perl? The thing is Ive written some similar code that
> lets users on our LAN scan in docs if there is a working scanner
> attached but that code runs on linux machines. I have no idea about
> getting it to install and run on linux.
>
> On 2/19/11, Mark Grimes <mgrimes at cpan.org> wrote:
>> The tricky part is going to be interfacing with the scanner. If you
>> can get that working there are a number of straight forward ways to
>> install a program, present a simple GUI interface and email (not
>> necessarily easy, but doable).
>>
>> I don't have any suggestions for the scanning part, but for the GUI I
>> would look at Wx, to bundle it look at PAR, and for email checkout
>> Email::Simple and the blat.exe program. Strawberry perl has become the
>> defacto standard for perl on windows, but I also like cygwin. The last
>> time I used PAR there were issues bundling Wx, so I hack together this
>> as a quick fix (not sure if it is still needed):
>>
>> http://peculier.com/code/perl.html#wx-win-par
>>
>> Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2011 10:31 AM, "Richard Reina" <gatorreina at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have been asked to write a program that makes it very easy for our
>>> contractors in the field to scan and email us documents from the
>>> field. Something that the user can download and install with a few
>>> clicks and that assumes no more user proficiency than being able to
>>> plug the scanner into the computer and follow prompts. Since 99% of
>>> our contractors use windows I have to write it for windows. I am an
>>> intermediate perl programmer at best but and willing to roll up my
>>> sleeves and do whatever it takes. I was wondering however, if anyone
>>> had any advice on where to start?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my mobile device
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
>>> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
>>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm
>>
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
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From thomas at brightbill.net  Sat Feb 19 13:22:26 2011
From: thomas at brightbill.net (Thomas Brightbill)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 13:22:26 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Writing a perl program for windows.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2+vDA0tza+p-dbcN-Jj1HeZA-xQviUrLQZXGa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim2+vDA0tza+p-dbcN-Jj1HeZA-xQviUrLQZXGa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D603492.5010804@brightbill.net>

If I understand your post, it sounds like the program needs to actually 
do the scanning.  If that's really the case, I'm wondering if TWAIN 
might be the way to go.  I found Win32::Scanner::EZTWAIN in CPAN.

SANE might be an alternative to TWAIN and it looks like there are a 
couple of modules for that in CPAN as well.

If the users are sophisticated enough to do their own scanning, then it 
would seem that they should be able to upload the scanned image via a 
web form or attach it to an e-mail.

Thomas


On 2/19/2011 7:30 AM, Richard Reina wrote:
> I have been asked to write a program that makes it very easy for our
> contractors in the field to scan and email us documents from the
> field. Something that the user can download and install with a few
> clicks and that  assumes no more user proficiency than being able to
> plug the scanner into the computer and follow prompts. Since 99% of
> our contractors use windows I have to write it for windows. I am an
> intermediate perl programmer at best but and willing to roll up my
> sleeves and do whatever it takes. I was wondering however, if anyone
> had any advice on where to start?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard
>

-- 
Thomas Brightbill
thomas at brightbill.net
http://www.brightbill.net


From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Mon Feb 21 14:59:48 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 14:59:48 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] Fwd: Reminder: Learn Python The Hard Way is tomorrow.
In-Reply-To: <1959566579.1298323032756.JavaMail.root@jobs.meetup.com>
References: <1959566579.1298323032756.JavaMail.root@jobs.meetup.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim0EDt8HHzxd4ZAneTk1yXLc+qM2dmfqQEa1bni@mail.gmail.com>

Don't forget, our next meeting is tomorrow night.

If you can help with the setup, please arrive at Citizen Space between
6:30 and 6:45.

http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Perl-Mongers/events/16408904/

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Meetup Reminder <info at meetup.com>
Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 1:17 PM
Subject: Reminder: Learn Python The Hard Way is tomorrow.
To: fred at redhotpenguin.com


Meetup Reminder
San Francisco Perl Mongers
Learn Python The Hard Way
is happening tomorrow
When:
Tuesday, February 22, 2011 7:00 PM
Where:
Citizen Space - 425 Second St., Suite 100 San Francisco CA
Who is going:
69 Perl Mongers
( 6 more spots left! )

Zed Shaw will turn the tables on our usual Perl centric meetings by
giving us a few lessons in learning Python the hard way. Zed is a well
known software developer who is noted for developing the Ruby
webserver Mongrel, the successor Mongrel2, the Lua based framework
Tir, and autho.me.
Learn Python the Hard Way - http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index
Zed Shaw - http://zedshaw.com/
Announcement posted via App::PM::Announce

You're on the list as going to this Meetup
Can't make it? Cancel your RSVP

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From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Sat Feb 26 23:00:37 2011
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:00:37 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
Message-ID: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>

Fellow Perl Mongers,

I finally got around to reading up on and trying out DBIx::Class. It looks pretty neat, but after loading up a complex DB (108 tables) and writing a short test script, I really don't understand why you'd want to use it over using just regular DBI and SQL. Maybe it's because I knew SQL before I knew Perl and I'm training in looking at things in a SQL way, but I'm not so sure. 

So I'd like to throw the floor open to discussion. Why would you want to use DBIx::Class (or any Object-Relational Manager) instead of writing classes that call the DB directly through DBI?

Thanks,
-- Mike
______________________________________________________________________________
Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | friedman at highwire.stanford.edu


From david at fetter.org  Sat Feb 26 23:04:36 2011
From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:04:36 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20110227070436.GA10909@fetter.org>

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 11:00:37PM -0800, Michael Friedman wrote:
> Fellow Perl Mongers,
> 
> I finally got around to reading up on and trying out DBIx::Class. It
> looks pretty neat, but after loading up a complex DB (108 tables)
> and writing a short test script, I really don't understand why you'd
> want to use it over using just regular DBI and SQL. Maybe it's
> because I knew SQL before I knew Perl and I'm training in looking at
> things in a SQL way, but I'm not so sure. 
> 
> So I'd like to throw the floor open to discussion. Why would you
> want to use DBIx::Class (or any Object-Relational Manager) instead
> of writing classes that call the DB directly through DBI?

There's nothing about an ORM that requires that it also be an SQL
generator.  The SQL generator is a ubiquitous and separate feature of
ORMs, written for the benefit, for lack of a better word, of people
who hate and fear SQL, and don't want to be reminded that they're
using it.

You can still use the mapper, which is what ORM (Object-Relational
Mapper) actually means, without using the SQL generator, at least in
the good ORMs.

Cheers,
David.
-- 
David Fetter <david at fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter      XMPP: david.fetter at gmail.com
iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

From not.com at gmail.com  Sun Feb 27 09:56:42 2011
From: not.com at gmail.com (yary)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:56:42 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <20110227070436.GA10909@fetter.org>
References: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20110227070436.GA10909@fetter.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=SMUBhms3W6c4wDxgEXWk-y03aE5z0bf_K6YnP@mail.gmail.com>

I've written/been in multi-hundred-table enterprise apps- which used
SQL/DBI, and then had a brief stint working on a couple web apps that
had maybe a dozen tables- and used an ORM. For that the ORM made
coding quicker- typing "select this from here, there where
here.key=there.key and that=foo" gets monotonous after a while. ORMs
are good for the common simple operations.

I always ended up having to write SQL to do things the ORMs weren't
written to do- and that's fine. Any ORM that had the expressive power
of full SQL is re-inventing the wheel!

There's no need to convert any existing database app to an ORM, if
you're starting from scratch then using an ORM will save you writing
some convenience classes.

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Sun Feb 27 10:38:04 2011
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:38:04 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <20110227070436.GA10909@fetter.org>
References: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20110227070436.GA10909@fetter.org>
Message-ID: <C508AFE5-92BD-4BA9-95F3-9B11C7FDBEA9@highwire.stanford.edu>

Without the SQL, the main thing an ORM gives you is the design pattern "Use a Class for each table in your db" (I forget the actual name of the pattern). So what you're saying is that you would use an ORM to make laying out your data access classes easier, using a standard model. Is that right?

That makes sense to me. Right now the system I work with happens to use "one class = one table" design, but it would be a nice shorthand to say "It's DBIx::Class based." As it is, I need to hand people the data model diagram and then explain how we've named classes that don't quite match the table names, which are views are pretending to be tables, and so on. It takes a while. ;-)

Thanks,
-- Mike
______________________________________________________________________________
Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | friedman at highwire.stanford.edu

On Feb 26, 2011, at 11:04 PM, David Fetter wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 11:00:37PM -0800, Michael Friedman wrote:
>> Fellow Perl Mongers,
>> 
>> I finally got around to reading up on and trying out DBIx::Class. It
>> looks pretty neat, but after loading up a complex DB (108 tables)
>> and writing a short test script, I really don't understand why you'd
>> want to use it over using just regular DBI and SQL. Maybe it's
>> because I knew SQL before I knew Perl and I'm training in looking at
>> things in a SQL way, but I'm not so sure. 
>> 
>> So I'd like to throw the floor open to discussion. Why would you
>> want to use DBIx::Class (or any Object-Relational Manager) instead
>> of writing classes that call the DB directly through DBI?
> 
> There's nothing about an ORM that requires that it also be an SQL
> generator.  The SQL generator is a ubiquitous and separate feature of
> ORMs, written for the benefit, for lack of a better word, of people
> who hate and fear SQL, and don't want to be reminded that they're
> using it.
> 
> You can still use the mapper, which is what ORM (Object-Relational
> Mapper) actually means, without using the SQL generator, at least in
> the good ORMs.
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> -- 
> David Fetter <david at fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
> Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
> Skype: davidfetter      XMPP: david.fetter at gmail.com
> iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics
> 
> Remember to vote!
> Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm


From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Sun Feb 27 10:44:10 2011
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:44:10 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=SMUBhms3W6c4wDxgEXWk-y03aE5z0bf_K6YnP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20110227070436.GA10909@fetter.org>
	<AANLkTi=SMUBhms3W6c4wDxgEXWk-y03aE5z0bf_K6YnP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1FA24DD2-9268-4F81-AA68-651C217EAF71@highwire.stanford.edu>

Aha. Yeah, I was thinking about how using an ORM for a small database would be useful. You could design the data objects in Perl and then run a script to actually create the db from that. No more accessor writing too. (Although that's easily taken care of in other ways.)

It was surprising to me how much of the DBIx::Class documentation was about "How do I get this funky SQL to work with DBIC?" Thinking about it in terms of reinventing the wheel makes that make more sense. You wouldn't want to write an ORM that handled 100% of what 100% of the people needed -- that'd be huge and overkill for 90% of users. Instead you cover the basics and let people use the same db connections with other methods to do the complex stuff. 

Thanks,
-- Mike

PS - There's no way I'm converting this 1400+ module system to use an ORM now. That'd be crazy. (Although I can see the benefits for job security...) I was looking at a side project which has the chance to "start over" with something simpler. 
______________________________________________________________________________
Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | friedman at highwire.stanford.edu

On Feb 27, 2011, at 9:56 AM, yary wrote:

> I've written/been in multi-hundred-table enterprise apps- which used
> SQL/DBI, and then had a brief stint working on a couple web apps that
> had maybe a dozen tables- and used an ORM. For that the ORM made
> coding quicker- typing "select this from here, there where
> here.key=there.key and that=foo" gets monotonous after a while. ORMs
> are good for the common simple operations.
> 
> I always ended up having to write SQL to do things the ORMs weren't
> written to do- and that's fine. Any ORM that had the expressive power
> of full SQL is re-inventing the wheel!
> 
> There's no need to convert any existing database app to an ORM, if
> you're starting from scratch then using an ORM will save you writing
> some convenience classes.
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm


From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu  Sun Feb 27 12:08:03 2011
From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joseph Brenner)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:08:03 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=B2Fs5aiGcomtH9t7NWnKVSVzihOhWR9tJC3zs@mail.gmail.com>

Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:

> I finally got around to reading up on and trying out DBIx::Class. It looks pretty neat, but after loading up a complex DB (108 tables) and writing a short test script, I really don't understand why you'd want to use it over using just regular DBI and SQL. Maybe it's because I knew SQL before I knew Perl and I'm training in looking at things in a SQL way, but I'm not so sure.
>
> So I'd like to throw the floor open to discussion. Why would you want to use DBIx::Class (or any Object-Relational Manager) instead of writing classes that call the DB directly through DBI?

Myself, I'm essentially on the same side of the fence that you are.
My preferred method of development is to start with data modeling,
work up a schema, write the standard SQL I expect to use to access the
schema, then write some perl methods as wrappers around the SQL.
And when I'm done, I don't expect my code will have trouble scaling up.

As I understand it, the ORM devotees claim they can get something
working faster than someone like me can -- and that's quite possible,
my productivity could be better, certainly on my solo projects -- and
when they're done they'll have something that at least works as a
prototype or for light-duty applications (which are, after all
relatively common, most of us are not working on the next facebook).

From quinn at pgexperts.com  Sun Feb 27 12:10:31 2011
From: quinn at pgexperts.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:10:31 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
Message-ID: <B50B15C1-167A-44A4-8E14-63E70B074CDD@pgexperts.com>

I agree with the points made so far about the complementary (and optional)
nature of ORMs.

I have a talk about using Catalyst, specifically, without an ORM, which you
may find useful. It's quite easy to make raw SQL queries in a Catalyst app and
never worry about an ORM. Even if that's not your intention, you may glean
some new information from its criticism of ORMs. The slides are at
http://bit.ly/NoORM They start out with motivation, then move into
implementation.

Do take with a grain of salt the section that criticizes the shortcomings of
ORMs; most of those criticisms don't apply to DBIC, which is an extremely
well-written ORM (it even supports aggregates?though you could argue that
that's a "reinventing SQL" feature).

In general, my strongest criticism of ORMs is that they make you think about
DBs the wrong way. They encourage a one-at-a-time mentality for DB operations:
e.g. in a Perl foreach/for loop, open a transaction, do an update or insert
(save), and close the transaction, *for each of hundreds or thousands of
items*. My colleague at pgexperts.com Christophe Pettus calls this
"pathological iteration." It really is a performance killer.

You don't have to do things this way, but the API of ORMs, combined with the
way they isolate you from SQL, combined with (sad to say) the naive SQL skills
of many web programmers, make mistakes natural. If you are more familiar with
relational model, you won't fall into this trap, but you may still have
difficulty expressing what you want to say.

The good news, though, is that you don't have to use an ORM at all. Even if
you use one, you can still fall back to raw SQL when you need it. My talk
doesn't cover that, but it sounds as if you have a good handle on it.

Anyway, those are my (immediate) thoughts on the subject. I hope they're
helpful. Good luck with your project!

--
Quinn Weaver
PostgreSQL Experts, Inc.
http://pgexperts.com/
1-888-743-9778 (my extension: 510)





From david at fetter.org  Sun Feb 27 13:01:09 2011
From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 13:01:09 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <B50B15C1-167A-44A4-8E14-63E70B074CDD@pgexperts.com>
References: <B50B15C1-167A-44A4-8E14-63E70B074CDD@pgexperts.com>
Message-ID: <20110227210109.GE8483@fetter.org>

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:10:31PM -0800, Quinn Weaver wrote:
> I agree with the points made so far about the complementary (and
> optional) nature of ORMs.

I'd like to distinguish again between O-R mappers from SQL generators.

Mappers are things that handle the translation between object-y things
in the client code's world and the database's.  They're just generally
good OO programming practice in the sense of encapsulation.

SQL generators are a different beast entirely, and often backwards of
good OO programming practice, as they depend intimately on knowledge
of the underlying implementation of the database, which knowledge
falls squarely into the realm of "implementation details" a.k.a.
"private methods.

I know it sounds like hair-splitting, but the ORMs with the most
promise are precisely the ones which make this distinction.

Anyhow, best wishes on your project :)

Cheers,
David.
-- 
David Fetter <david at fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter      XMPP: david.fetter at gmail.com
iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Sun Feb 27 13:05:03 2011
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 13:05:03 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <B50B15C1-167A-44A4-8E14-63E70B074CDD@pgexperts.com>
References: <B50B15C1-167A-44A4-8E14-63E70B074CDD@pgexperts.com>
Message-ID: <3A9C0BEF-2B19-448C-9F9E-54D0F69091F7@highwire.stanford.edu>

Quinn,

I remember reading those slides the first time, but not quite understanding them. They make much more sense now that I know a bit about ORMs. Thanks for reminding me of them!

I agree, I had immediate worries about the one-at-a-time-ness of ORMs. Heck, I have enough trouble with my peers at the office being naive about DBs and killing the server by trying to do something one-at-a-time for hundreds of thousands of rows. The DBA would kill me if I made the code any more conducive to such things.

Still, for smaller databases or smaller data sets, I can see why the ORM would encourage faster development, especially in a shop without a trained DBA. It stops you from making the most stupid decisions (and typos), even if it doesn't handle large-scale operations. (How many times have we all forgotten the WHERE clause on an update? Hrm?)

-- Mike
______________________________________________________________________________
Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | friedman at highwire.stanford.edu

On Feb 27, 2011, at 12:10 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote:

> I agree with the points made so far about the complementary (and optional)
> nature of ORMs.
> 
> I have a talk about using Catalyst, specifically, without an ORM, which you
> may find useful. It's quite easy to make raw SQL queries in a Catalyst app and
> never worry about an ORM. Even if that's not your intention, you may glean
> some new information from its criticism of ORMs. The slides are at
> http://bit.ly/NoORM They start out with motivation, then move into
> implementation.
> 
> Do take with a grain of salt the section that criticizes the shortcomings of
> ORMs; most of those criticisms don't apply to DBIC, which is an extremely
> well-written ORM (it even supports aggregates?though you could argue that
> that's a "reinventing SQL" feature).
> 
> In general, my strongest criticism of ORMs is that they make you think about
> DBs the wrong way. They encourage a one-at-a-time mentality for DB operations:
> e.g. in a Perl foreach/for loop, open a transaction, do an update or insert
> (save), and close the transaction, *for each of hundreds or thousands of
> items*. My colleague at pgexperts.com Christophe Pettus calls this
> "pathological iteration." It really is a performance killer.
> 
> You don't have to do things this way, but the API of ORMs, combined with the
> way they isolate you from SQL, combined with (sad to say) the naive SQL skills
> of many web programmers, make mistakes natural. If you are more familiar with
> relational model, you won't fall into this trap, but you may still have
> difficulty expressing what you want to say.
> 
> The good news, though, is that you don't have to use an ORM at all. Even if
> you use one, you can still fall back to raw SQL when you need it. My talk
> doesn't cover that, but it sounds as if you have a good handle on it.
> 
> Anyway, those are my (immediate) thoughts on the subject. I hope they're
> helpful. Good luck with your project!
> 
> --
> Quinn Weaver
> PostgreSQL Experts, Inc.
> http://pgexperts.com/
> 1-888-743-9778 (my extension: 510)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm


From extasia at extasia.org  Sun Feb 27 17:07:24 2011
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:07:24 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [off-topic] commute question: sf to santa clara
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>

greetings mongerfolk,

tuesday through thursday this week i'm the lucky winner of a commute
from the civic center area of san francisco to all day training in
santa clara.  i'll be driving.  if i need to be there by 08:45, when
should i leave?  it's north of 101 on great america pkwy.  one of the
goals of the commute, if at all possible, is to avoid wanting to shoot
myself in the head.

gracias,
david
-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From extasia at extasia.org  Sun Feb 27 17:12:35 2011
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:12:35 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [off-topic] commute question: sf to santa clara
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>

i forgot that map websites that give directions also give time
estimates.  one of them says "1 hour 10 mins in traffic".  i figure
i'll leave at 07:15 to give myself a twenty minute margin of error.
thanks.

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:07 PM, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
> tuesday through thursday this week i'm the lucky winner of a commute
> from the civic center area of san francisco to all day training in
> santa clara. ?i'll be driving. ?if i need to be there by 08:45, when
> should i leave? ?it's north of 101 on great america pkwy. ?one of the
> goals of the commute, if at all possible, is to avoid wanting to shoot
> myself in the head.

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From rdm at cfcl.com  Sun Feb 27 18:59:54 2011
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 18:59:54 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <3A9C0BEF-2B19-448C-9F9E-54D0F69091F7@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <B50B15C1-167A-44A4-8E14-63E70B074CDD@pgexperts.com>
	<3A9C0BEF-2B19-448C-9F9E-54D0F69091F7@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <p062309e0c990be9c33b9@[192.168.1.205]>

Some folks might find this interesting:

  Arel is a Relational Algebra for Ruby. It 1) simplifies
  the generation of complex SQL queries and it 2) adapts
  to various RDBMS systems.  It is intended to be a
  framework framework; that is, you can build your own ORM
  with it, focusing on innovative object and collection
  modeling as opposed to database compatibility and query
  generation.

  -- https://github.com/rails/arel
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Software system design, development, and documentation

From david at fetter.org  Sun Feb 27 21:12:44 2011
From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:12:44 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [off-topic] commute question: sf to santa clara
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110228051244.GI8483@fetter.org>

Consider the 280.  It may seem out of your way, but it's a *lot* more
fun for most of the drive down there.  I've been known to use the 280
to get from Oakland, where we live, to Palo Alto, where I work.

Cheers,
David.
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 05:12:35PM -0800, David Alban wrote:
> i forgot that map websites that give directions also give time
> estimates.  one of them says "1 hour 10 mins in traffic".  i figure
> i'll leave at 07:15 to give myself a twenty minute margin of error.
> thanks.
> 
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:07 PM, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
> > tuesday through thursday this week i'm the lucky winner of a commute
> > from the civic center area of san francisco to all day training in
> > santa clara. ?i'll be driving. ?if i need to be there by 08:45, when
> > should i leave? ?it's north of 101 on great america pkwy. ?one of the
> > goals of the commute, if at all possible, is to avoid wanting to shoot
> > myself in the head.
> 
> -- 
> Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm

-- 
David Fetter <david at fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter      XMPP: david.fetter at gmail.com
iCal: webcal://www.tripit.com/feed/ical/people/david74/tripit.ics

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Sun Feb 27 23:15:23 2011
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:15:23 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [off-topic] commute question: sf to santa clara
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78FB40F1-A481-489E-9457-287B7F02C395@highwire.stanford.edu>

Google Maps always underestimates traffic times on the peninsula. I'd count on at least an hour an a half, maybe more. Luckily, you're going partially anti-commute and pretty early, so the first part won't be too bad. I'd also suggest looking at 280. It never is as slow as 101, so you can easily make up the extra few miles it'll cost you. 

-- Mike

______________________________________________________________________________
Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>


On Feb 27, 2011, at 5:12 PM, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:

> i forgot that map websites that give directions also give time
> estimates.  one of them says "1 hour 10 mins in traffic".  i figure
> i'll leave at 07:15 to give myself a twenty minute margin of error.
> thanks.
> 
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:07 PM, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
>> tuesday through thursday this week i'm the lucky winner of a commute
>> from the civic center area of san francisco to all day training in
>> santa clara.  i'll be driving.  if i need to be there by 08:45, when
>> should i leave?  it's north of 101 on great america pkwy.  one of the
>> goals of the commute, if at all possible, is to avoid wanting to shoot
>> myself in the head.
> 
> -- 
> Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm

From Paul.Makepeace at realprogrammers.com  Mon Feb 28 06:35:06 2011
From: Paul.Makepeace at realprogrammers.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:35:06 +0000
Subject: [sf-perl] [off-topic] commute question: sf to santa clara
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikY9R_Xxh9rQW=TMJPSNdZKu6tNG10qEeFKM-V4@mail.gmail.com>

As contrast I've gotten from SF (Cesar Chavez) to 16mi south of S Cruz
in that time on a motorcycle through traffic.

Pick your tool according to your working dataset (and risk analysis)! :-)

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 01:12, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
> i forgot that map websites that give directions also give time
> estimates. ?one of them says "1 hour 10 mins in traffic". ?i figure
> i'll leave at 07:15 to give myself a twenty minute margin of error.
> thanks.
>
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:07 PM, David Alban <extasia at extasia.org> wrote:
>> tuesday through thursday this week i'm the lucky winner of a commute
>> from the civic center area of san francisco to all day training in
>> santa clara. ?i'll be driving. ?if i need to be there by 08:45, when
>> should i leave? ?it's north of 101 on great america pkwy. ?one of the
>> goals of the commute, if at all possible, is to avoid wanting to shoot
>> myself in the head.
>
> --
> Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm
>

From danlyke at flutterby.com  Mon Feb 28 07:57:25 2011
From: danlyke at flutterby.com (Dan Lyke)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:57:25 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <1FA24DD2-9268-4F81-AA68-651C217EAF71@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20110227070436.GA10909@fetter.org>
	<AANLkTi=SMUBhms3W6c4wDxgEXWk-y03aE5z0bf_K6YnP@mail.gmail.com>
	<1FA24DD2-9268-4F81-AA68-651C217EAF71@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20110228075725.42fe0e52@daisies>

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:44:10 -0800
Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Aha. Yeah, I was thinking about how using an ORM for a small database
> would be useful. You could design the data objects in Perl and then
> run a script to actually create the db from that. No more accessor
> writing too. (Although that's easily taken care of in other ways.)

It doesn't do decent decoupling of the model from the view, but when I
started playing with Moose I realized that I wanted something where I
could stuff the niggling little differences between databases and let
me specify my objects once, but everything else I was looking at seemed
like hard overkill.

This is what the hour or so I was mucking about with it gave me, with
a little evolution as I've used it for some other tools:

http://www.flutterby.net/volatilecode/FbyDB.pm.html

I use it because it actually makes my life easier, without getting in
my way.

Dan


From not.com at gmail.com  Mon Feb 28 08:14:59 2011
From: not.com at gmail.com (yary)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:14:59 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [off-topic] commute question: sf to santa clara
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikY9R_Xxh9rQW=TMJPSNdZKu6tNG10qEeFKM-V4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikY9R_Xxh9rQW=TMJPSNdZKu6tNG10qEeFKM-V4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ZV1tgsJSzMqQ8FOnP3gszxZ+yN92QihNoiY=M@mail.gmail.com>

It's worth asking if the place you're going to runs a shuttle from
Caltrain, and the times the shuttle runs if they do. I was able to
have a quite pleasant ride Caltrain+shuttle to Sun one time, since
their employee shuttle is also open to guests... and then walked about
3 miles to get a SamTrans bus back, when I waited at the wrong spot
for the more convenient AC Transit bus home. There was no early
afternoon shuttle, and that AC Transit bus that went by their campus
drove right by me. Added two hours to my return :-(

From fred at redhotpenguin.com  Mon Feb 28 09:02:38 2011
From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:02:38 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <B61537F9-093E-4B8E-9CF4-BB605E1CCA88@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=a2DQk_EUwvq2FVE5q=mF+2vAbgUGvxmj+r-ka@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 11:00 PM, Michael Friedman
<friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Fellow Perl Mongers,
>
> I finally got around to reading up on and trying out DBIx::Class. It looks pretty neat, but after loading up a complex DB (108 tables) and writing a short test script, I really don't understand why you'd want to use it over using just regular DBI and SQL. Maybe it's because I knew SQL before I knew Perl and I'm training in looking at things in a SQL way, but I'm not so sure.
>
> So I'd like to throw the floor open to discussion. Why would you want to use DBIx::Class (or any Object-Relational Manager) instead of writing classes that call the DB directly through DBI?

Once you understand how to use DBIx::Class, it makes your life a lot
simpler.  You don't have to think about what fields you're retrieving
with sql statements, whether or not you typed in the wrong key for a
hash slice lookup, etc, etc.

If writing raw sql with DBI is a sledgehammer, DBIx::Class is a
wrecking ball.  It takes some review and time to learn the API, but
you can get a lot more done in a much shorter amount of time, and
still be able to use raw SQL for those queries you need to optimize.

Best of all, you can point it at your database and have it extract a
full resultset library from it, to which you can add your own methods.
 If making sure your sql is exactly the way you want it in every case,
DBIx::Class is probably not for you.  But if you want to get business
goals accomplished, and worry about optimizing thing later, it is a
choice tool.

From quinn at pgexperts.com  Mon Feb 28 12:50:02 2011
From: quinn at pgexperts.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:50:02 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
Message-ID: <808CCFBE-C53A-4028-B0E4-A21BC6F7D8B2@pgexperts.com>

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:01 PM, David Fetter <david at fetter.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:10:31PM -0800, Quinn Weaver wrote:
>> I agree with the points made so far about the complementary (and
>> optional) nature of ORMs.
>
> I'd like to distinguish again between O-R mappers from SQL generators.
>
> Mappers are things that handle the translation between object-y things
> in the client code's world and the database's.  They're just generally
> good OO programming practice in the sense of encapsulation.
>
> SQL generators are a different beast entirely

So what you're saying is that one can write raw SQL, then allow the ORM to handle (only) the translation of the resultset to Perl objects? I like this approach; it gives you the best of both worlds. I'll make a note to mention it in the next iteration of my talk.

> I know it sounds like hair-splitting, but the ORMs with the most
> promise are precisely the ones which make this distinction.

If I understood you correctly above, Rose::DB::Object can do this. I believe DBIx::Class can as well, yes?

On occasions when I do use an ORM, I used to favor RDBO, but I now favor DBIC, because it is Moose-based (this allows for automated conversion of DBIC objects to JSON via introspection). They're both quite solid frameworks, though. DBIC is clearly the more popular. FWIW, RDBO also has the following property, cited by Fred Moyer in a later email about DBIC:

> Best of all, you can point it at your database and have it extract a full resultset
> library from it, to which you can add your own methods.

--
Quinn Weaver
PostgreSQL Experts, Inc.
http://pgexperts.com/
1-888-743-9778 (my extension: 510)





From extasia at extasia.org  Mon Feb 28 13:02:46 2011
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:02:46 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] [off-topic] commute question: sf to santa clara
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=ZV1tgsJSzMqQ8FOnP3gszxZ+yN92QihNoiY=M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=0ZhvFQ+e8X0ccq+nT7icj5rvAT-MuBU5-aTAP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikMzp=Ei72XrAOW=BmPa1w7TvU8pB5RaxDKjBo8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikY9R_Xxh9rQW=TMJPSNdZKu6tNG10qEeFKM-V4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=ZV1tgsJSzMqQ8FOnP3gszxZ+yN92QihNoiY=M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXa=hNohXtpfANf_dPNMrG38OcoM7DP35R-M-m@mail.gmail.com>

thanks david, michael, paul, and yary!

sounds like i'll allow 01:45 to get there.  can't wait...

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 8:14 AM, yary <not.com at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's worth asking if the place you're going to runs a shuttle from
> Caltrain, and the times the shuttle runs if they do. I was able to
> have a quite pleasant ride Caltrain+shuttle to Sun one time, since
> their employee shuttle is also open to guests... and then walked about
> 3 miles to get a SamTrans bus back, when I waited at the wrong spot
> for the more convenient AC Transit bus home. There was no early
> afternoon shuttle, and that AC Transit bus that went by their campus
> drove right by me. Added two hours to my return :-(

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Mon Feb 28 13:06:34 2011
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:06:34 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <808CCFBE-C53A-4028-B0E4-A21BC6F7D8B2@pgexperts.com>
References: <808CCFBE-C53A-4028-B0E4-A21BC6F7D8B2@pgexperts.com>
Message-ID: <2FBD6E9C-FED5-44A4-B07B-47A98D149043@highwire.stanford.edu>

DBIC can write your classes for you too.
http://search.cpan.org/~rkitover/DBIx-Class-Schema-Loader-0.07009/

Especially see `dbicdump`, which I used to great success. It'll dump the db to classes, even grabbing relations, foreign keys, and the like, and then just leave them there for you to modify to your heart's content.

-- Mike F
______________________________________________________________________________
Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | friedman at highwire.stanford.edu

On Feb 28, 2011, at 12:50 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:01 PM, David Fetter <david at fetter.org> wrote:
>> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:10:31PM -0800, Quinn Weaver wrote:
>>> I agree with the points made so far about the complementary (and
>>> optional) nature of ORMs.
>> 
>> I'd like to distinguish again between O-R mappers from SQL generators.
>> 
>> Mappers are things that handle the translation between object-y things
>> in the client code's world and the database's.  They're just generally
>> good OO programming practice in the sense of encapsulation.
>> 
>> SQL generators are a different beast entirely
> 
> So what you're saying is that one can write raw SQL, then allow the ORM to handle (only) the translation of the resultset to Perl objects? I like this approach; it gives you the best of both worlds. I'll make a note to mention it in the next iteration of my talk.
> 
>> I know it sounds like hair-splitting, but the ORMs with the most
>> promise are precisely the ones which make this distinction.
> 
> If I understood you correctly above, Rose::DB::Object can do this. I believe DBIx::Class can as well, yes?
> 
> On occasions when I do use an ORM, I used to favor RDBO, but I now favor DBIC, because it is Moose-based (this allows for automated conversion of DBIC objects to JSON via introspection). They're both quite solid frameworks, though. DBIC is clearly the more popular. FWIW, RDBO also has the following property, cited by Fred Moyer in a later email about DBIC:
> 
>> Best of all, you can point it at your database and have it extract a full resultset
>> library from it, to which you can add your own methods.
> 
> --
> Quinn Weaver
> PostgreSQL Experts, Inc.
> http://pgexperts.com/
> 1-888-743-9778 (my extension: 510)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm


From quinn at pgexperts.com  Mon Feb 28 13:54:37 2011
From: quinn at pgexperts.com (Quinn Weaver)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:54:37 -0800
Subject: [sf-perl] ORM vs. DBI
In-Reply-To: <2FBD6E9C-FED5-44A4-B07B-47A98D149043@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <808CCFBE-C53A-4028-B0E4-A21BC6F7D8B2@pgexperts.com>
	<2FBD6E9C-FED5-44A4-B07B-47A98D149043@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <F3389BF7-98C2-4AE5-8A43-B8690927F166@pgexperts.com>

On Feb 28, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Michael Friedman wrote:

> DBIC can write your classes for you too.
> http://search.cpan.org/~rkitover/DBIx-Class-Schema-Loader-0.07009/

Yes. I think that was what Fred was saying. I apologize if I made that
unclear.

> Especially see `dbicdump`, which I used to great success. It'll dump the db to classes, even grabbing relations, foreign keys, and the like, and then just leave them there for you to modify to your heart's content.
> 
> -- Mike F
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Mike Friedman | HighWire Press, Stanford Univ | friedman at highwire.stanford.edu
> 
> On Feb 28, 2011, at 12:50 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:01 PM, David Fetter <david at fetter.org> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:10:31PM -0800, Quinn Weaver wrote:
>>>> I agree with the points made so far about the complementary (and
>>>> optional) nature of ORMs.
>>> 
>>> I'd like to distinguish again between O-R mappers from SQL generators.
>>> 
>>> Mappers are things that handle the translation between object-y things
>>> in the client code's world and the database's.  They're just generally
>>> good OO programming practice in the sense of encapsulation.
>>> 
>>> SQL generators are a different beast entirely
>> 
>> So what you're saying is that one can write raw SQL, then allow the ORM to handle (only) the translation of the resultset to Perl objects? I like this approach; it gives you the best of both worlds. I'll make a note to mention it in the next iteration of my talk.
>> 
>>> I know it sounds like hair-splitting, but the ORMs with the most
>>> promise are precisely the ones which make this distinction.
>> 
>> If I understood you correctly above, Rose::DB::Object can do this. I believe DBIx::Class can as well, yes?
>> 
>> On occasions when I do use an ORM, I used to favor RDBO, but I now favor DBIC, because it is Moose-based (this allows for automated conversion of DBIC objects to JSON via introspection). They're both quite solid frameworks, though. DBIC is clearly the more popular. FWIW, RDBO also has the following property, cited by Fred Moyer in a later email about DBIC:
>> 
>>> Best of all, you can point it at your database and have it extract a full resultset
>>> library from it, to which you can add your own methods.
>> 
>> --
>> Quinn Weaver
>> PostgreSQL Experts, Inc.
>> http://pgexperts.com/
>> 1-888-743-9778 (my extension: 510)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list
>> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm
> 

--
Quinn Weaver
PostgreSQL Experts, Inc.
http://pgexperts.com/
1-888-743-9778 (my extension: 510)