From cba at groundworkopensource.com Wed Apr 2 14:10:39 2008 From: cba at groundworkopensource.com (Chris B. Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:10:39 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Nagios & Ethan Galstad at BayLISA Monitoring SIG: Weds, April 9 2008, 7PM Message-ID: (Hi: You're invited to the BayLISA Monitoring SIG, Weds, April 9 2008, 7PM. See the meeting announcement pasted below: feel free to post it and/or forward it along to anyone else who might be interested. Many thanks, and hope to see you there!) ================================================= Monitoring SIG XV: Nagios 3.0 A very special SIG: Ethan Galstad, project lead for Nagios, will be in from Minnesota to talk about the features of the newly-released Nagios 3.0. He'll also be available to field your questions about Nagios in general and where it's headed. What: BayLISA Monitoring SIG XV: Nagios 3.0 Who: Anyone interested in IT monitoring issues and tools (newbies particularly welcome!) When: Wednesday, April 9 2008, 7PM Where: GroundWork Open Source, 139 Townsend St., San Francisco How: 139 Townsend St. is very near AT&T Ballpark. It is one and a half blocks from the CalTrain Depot. Take the MUNI T or N trolley to 2nd and King (ballpark stop) or take the 30 or 45 bus (among others) crosstown. Allow extra travel time as the Giants are playing a home game that evening (vs. the Padres, 7:15PM start) so all the streets, sidewalks, and public transit around our office will be packed. DO NOT DRIVE unless you're willing to sit in gridlock and pay exorbitant amounts for parking. Cost: Free!! Piping hot pizza, fridge cold pop, and room temperature snacks provided by GroundWork. We'll open up the doors at 6:30 or so and start the formal part of the meeting promptly at 7PM. RSVP (not necessary, but helpful): Peter Mui, pmui at groundworkopensource.com, 415-992-4573, www.groundworkopensource.com ================================================= NOTICE: This email is intended only for the use of the party to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this email or its contents is strictly prohibited.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080402/1f562942/attachment.html From nheller at silcon.com Wed Apr 2 14:23:51 2008 From: nheller at silcon.com (Neil Heller) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:23:51 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Nagios & Ethan Galstad at BayLISA Monitoring SIG: Weds, April 9 2008, 7PM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01c89507$d8f7fe60$8ae7fb20$@com> RSVP + 1 Neil Heller 510-862-4387 From: sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org [mailto:sanfrancisco-pm-bounces+nheller=silcon.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Chris B. Anderson Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:11 PM To: sanfrancisco-pm at pm.org Subject: [sf-perl] Nagios & Ethan Galstad at BayLISA Monitoring SIG: Weds, April 9 2008, 7PM (Hi: You're invited to the BayLISA Monitoring SIG, Weds, April 9 2008, 7PM. See the meeting announcement pasted below: feel free to post it and/or forward it along to anyone else who might be interested. Many thanks, and hope to see you there!) ================================================= Monitoring SIG XV: Nagios 3.0 A very special SIG: Ethan Galstad, project lead for Nagios, will be in from Minnesota to talk about the features of the newly-released Nagios 3.0. He'll also be available to field your questions about Nagios in general and where it's headed. What: BayLISA Monitoring SIG XV: Nagios 3.0 Who: Anyone interested in IT monitoring issues and tools (newbies particularly welcome!) When: Wednesday, April 9 2008, 7PM Where: GroundWork Open Source, 139 Townsend St., San Francisco How: 139 Townsend St. is very near AT&T Ballpark. It is one and a half blocks from the CalTrain Depot. Take the MUNI T or N trolley to 2nd and King (ballpark stop) or take the 30 or 45 bus (among others) crosstown. Allow extra travel time as the Giants are playing a home game that evening (vs. the Padres, 7:15PM start) so all the streets, sidewalks, and public transit around our office will be packed. DO NOT DRIVE unless you're willing to sit in gridlock and pay exorbitant amounts for parking. Cost: Free!! Piping hot pizza, fridge cold pop, and room temperature snacks provided by GroundWork. We'll open up the doors at 6:30 or so and start the formal part of the meeting promptly at 7PM. RSVP (not necessary, but helpful): Peter Mui, pmui at groundworkopensource.com, 415-992-4573, www.groundworkopensource.com ================================================= _____ NOTICE: This email is intended only for the use of the party to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this email or its contents is strictly prohibited.If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank You. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080402/1a237b16/attachment.html From family_geek at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 14:21:43 2008 From: family_geek at yahoo.com (Joey Moe) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies Message-ID: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I wanted to mention that I started a website about Perl back in Feb. I am learning so it won't be filled with answers but I wanted to throw out a shameless plug, just in case any other people interested in learning Perl might want to visit and maybe discuss problems they are having or offer up solutions, you know in the spirit of community. I have no problem posting stuff if people want, and I have some forums. If you are interested, have a look: www.penguingeek.net If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to listen. Thanks for indulging me :) Joey Moe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080402/e7d832a6/attachment-0001.html From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Apr 2 17:03:23 2008 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:03:23 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> (Joey Moe's message of "Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:21:43 -0700 (PDT)") References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Joey" == Joey Moe writes: Joey> If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to listen. Yes. Why aren't you directing people to perlmonks.org and perl-beginners at perl.org instead? Do you think there are an infinite supply of experts willing to answer correctly? If not, are you willing to mislead beginners by providing them with answers from slightly-less-beginners, doing everyone a disservice? Please. It doesn't help the community to create Yet Another Beginners Place. Really, it doesn't. Please don't. It's already bad enough that four (!) separate mailing lists on Yahoo claim to be for Perl beginnners, and some of the answers on those lists are appalling, because experts (except for me) don't hang out there. Please don't make my work any harder. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From andy at petdance.com Wed Apr 2 17:38:24 2008 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:38:24 -0500 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> > Do you think there are an infinite supply of experts willing to answer > correctly? Why are only experts useful? And how can it be that the perlmonks.org and perl-beginners are the only two valid places for experts to hang out? If nothing else, that presupposes that the people who need help know about it. > If not, are you willing to mislead beginners by providing them > with answers from slightly-less-beginners, doing everyone a > disservice? Wanna make an omelette, ya gotta break some eggs of inaccurate answers. > Please don't make my work any harder. Maybe you don't have to do it all yourself. Maybe if you backed off, others would fill the vacuum? xoa -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Apr 2 17:46:40 2008 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:46:40 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> (Andy Lester's message of "Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:38:24 -0500") References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> Message-ID: <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Andy" == Andy Lester writes: >> Do you think there are an infinite supply of experts willing to answer >> correctly? Andy> Why are only experts useful? If you want to live in a world where the blind lead the blind, go ahead. I'd rather live in a world where a Perl beginner can spin up as rapidly as possible. And the experts have spoken. They are willing to hang out on perlmonks and perl-beginners. They're abandoning Usenet, which was the previous favorite spot. AND NO OTHER PLACE. This is evidenced directly. Go to these other mailing lists. Look at the questions, then look at the misleading and appalling answers. In an ideal world, we'd have enough experts to fill 100 lists. Too bad. Not ideal. Andy> And how can it be that the perlmonks.org Andy> and perl-beginners are the only two valid places for experts to hang Andy> out? If nothing else, that presupposes that the people who need help Andy> know about it. That's why I post messages like this. To inform those who would misleadingingly set up Yet Another Watering Hole. It ain't gonna happen. Experts are not going to hang out in Yet Another Place. Please stop trying to dilute the community. We need critical mass, not a myriad of options. >> Please don't make my work any harder. Andy> Maybe you don't have to do it all yourself. Maybe if you backed off, Andy> others would fill the vacuum? Again, see the mailing list histories for the Yahoo Groups. The evidence stands for itself. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From andy at petdance.com Wed Apr 2 17:51:33 2008 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:51:33 -0500 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> > And the experts have spoken. They are willing to hang out on > perlmonks and perl-beginners. They're abandoning Usenet, which was > the previous favorite spot. You're assuming experts are a fixed quantity. > AND NO OTHER PLACE. This is evidenced directly. Go to these > other mailing lists. Look at the questions, then look at the > misleading > and appalling answers. Maybe there's never been any place better. Nobody was willing to use any search engine other than AltaVista for a while, too. > In an ideal world, we'd have enough experts to fill 100 lists. Too > bad. Not ideal. Agreed! So let's spread the love and help make some more, by giving them a place to grow. > That's why I post messages like this. To inform those who would > misleadingingly set up Yet Another Watering Hole. How is it "misleading"? > Please stop trying to dilute the community. We need critical mass, > not a myriad of options. What is the critical mass you're trying to achieve? > Again, see the mailing list histories for the Yahoo Groups. The > evidence > stands for itself. If past failures is all that we worried about, nothing would ever move forward. xoa -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From masri at nolex.com Wed Apr 2 18:09:01 2008 From: masri at nolex.com (Adam Masri) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:09:01 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> Message-ID: I guess my only comment here is, critical mass is not necessarily a good thing. Frankly, isn't that the reason so many people subscribe to this list, because it's fairly quiet? Lots of quiet places to go and get decent answers (even if not the "best" answer, which is often debatable anyway) is probably good. The answers on his Website will progressively get better as users get more knowledgeable, until, who knows? Maybe we'll be looking up answers there too. On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Andy Lester wrote: >> Please stop trying to dilute the community. We need critical mass, >> not a myriad of options. > > What is the critical mass you're trying to achieve? Adam Masri masri at nolex.com President www.nolex.com Nolex From david at fetter.org Wed Apr 2 20:12:25 2008 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:12:25 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] A little late, but... Message-ID: <20080403031225.GX5276@fetter.org> Folks, http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/04/01/announcing-ruby-on-crack/ Cheers, David. -- David Fetter http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fetter at gmail.com Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate From quinn at fairpath.com Wed Apr 2 21:12:03 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:12:03 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> Holy crap! Andy Lester and Randal Schwartz are duking it out on our list. I feel like a spectator who turns up in the town square to find Lords Montague and Capulet going at it. ;) And Joey, who was just making a naive attempt to be helpful, is probably wishing for flameproof drawers. My take on all this as list mom: - Please don't harsh people. If they're making mistakes, correct them politely. If you really care about community-building, you have to suffer some fools gladly. (Or, rather, suffer misguided behavior from normal people who are just making mistakes.) And yes, this applies even to Perl Gods. - This list is a de facto ad hoc forum for help. People use it that way from time to time, and it seems to work fine. But... - When this happens, it's perfectly OK to remind people of / hip people to PerlMonks and suggest they post there too. Just don't be rude about it. (Ignoring their question and posting 'http://perlmonks.org/' as your entire response would be an example of rudeness. So would running them down for not knowing about PerlMonks in the first place. Not saying anyone is doing this, just giving examples.) Bottom line: this list is unlike others in that we actively try to promote a civil atmosphere. This means have a lower threshhold for considering something a flame... which is why I keep writing posts like this. If you want to post on the list, please be mindful of these guidelines. With your help, we can keep up an ambience that's welcoming to newbies, where they feel safe to speak out, ask dumb questions, and learn better, without getting burninated. I suspect one reason people ask questions here and not on PerlMonks is shyness--fear of being flamed. If we can help people overcome their shyness by being helpful and friendly, all while teaching them more about Perl, then all the better. Excelsior, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From rdm at cfcl.com Thu Apr 3 03:51:46 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 02:51:46 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: At 20:12 -0800 4/2/08, Quinn Weaver wrote: > ...which is why I keep writing posts like this. And, although I may quibble about the specifics, I really appreciate the nannying. I bailed out of the regular Perl lists years ago, largely because of the nastiness. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From family_geek at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 07:19:35 2008 From: family_geek at yahoo.com (Joey Moe) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> It seem that by simply mentioning that I set up a site about perl, (not mentioning that I had any answers, and clearly saying I wasn't trying to compete with sites like perlmonks which I, myself have visited many times), I upset people. My site is more of a blog about my own learning. I never said I was trying to teach anyone, and it seems that Randall Swartz came out of the womb a Perl expert because that's all he keeps saying. Someone seems very insecure in what he knows. At least I can admit that I'm a beginner, and it's attitude like Randall's that made me decide to start my own site. I want to share my learning experience, not badger, harass and scare away other people who are interested in learning as well. Look at how many sites out there where experts hang out, and noobies still don't get answers to there questions, they just get blown off and left to fend for themselves by experts like Randall. I just want to learn a programming language, not run for the presidency. Don't worry Randall, I won't take your 40 acres and mule. You can go hang out with all the cool kids on whatever site you want, I'm perfectly fine if nobody were to come to my site. I really don't need your validation, I was just looking to share my learning experience. As far as being an expert, you may know alot about Perl, but you kinda suck when it comes to people skills. I'm still a noobie, my site is still there for anyone who is interested and I'm proud of what I do (or don't know)....I don't know about the rest of you, but I was really just interested in learning more perl, I didn't realize this was a popularity contest. Joey Moe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080403/eb57a821/attachment.html From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Apr 3 07:51:26 2008 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:51:26 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> (Joey Moe's message of "Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:19:35 -0700 (PDT)") References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <864pajhtzl.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> I'm sorry if I seemed hostile to new users. That was not my intention. Perhaps you can understand if I'm a bit gun-shy of "newbies sharing their experience", if you'll let me relate a bit of Perl history. As the web was exploding a decade ago, people were eager to share their early discoveries of Perl on the emerging net. Because there wasn't a lot of searchable info, these early junior programmers got widely recognized for their easy-to-find and readily downloaded and used code. I won't mention any names, but the old guys here will know a few prime examples immediately. Well, of course, the code was bad, and sometimes even had exploitable security holes. And yet, despite efforts by experts to uncover and retrain the naive downloaders and reusers of this bad code, some of it is *still* popping up today. This "bad code on display" has led to problems in having us use Perl today: people think Perl is unreadable, and full of security holes, mostly because of this code that was written by beginners. And that directly affects YOU, because if you come up to a manager who says "perl can't be maintained; perl is a security hole waiting to happen", they're specifically remembering *THIS STUFF*. And then *you* won't get to use the language *you* have invested time in learning, mostly because someone *else's* early code is being held up as an example. So, I don't any more newbie code on display *as an example*. It's fine for me if newbie code is pasted in a place where experts can immediately comment on it if it's got bad practices or security holes. But there's only so many experts who are willing to do that (fewer every day, sadly), and I already know where most of them hang out. Call me selfish, but I want Perl to be around for another twenty years. So I'm working hard to make sure there's an expert in every public forum, so that we won't repeat the mistakes of the past decade. And if you're learning Perl, I'd think you'd appreciate that concern for the health of the Perl community as a whole, although perhaps you didn't see that when I made my first complaint. Maybe this helps you understand my position. It's not about not wanting *you* to learn Perl. It's about the health of the Perl community as a whole. By all means, ask questions here. If someone gives a broken answer here, there are people who can correct it here. But if you create your own forum, there's no guarantee that a wrong answer will be corrected, and that's what scares me, on behalf of the Perl community. That's all I'm asking for. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From quinn at fairpath.com Thu Apr 3 08:48:30 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:48:30 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080403154830.GB47798@fu.funkspiel.org> Hi, Joey, I realize you feel hurt after offering your work and getting a negative response, but I think this thread is now headed for reconciliation (thanks, Randal!) So please take a deep breath, shake hands, and make up. :) Also, in the future, please don't use any personal attacks or insults in your posts. This is the one hard-and-fast rule of this list. It applies equally to newcomers like you, Perl legends like Randal, me as list moderator, and everyone else. The idea is to promote a discourse where everyone is assured a certain minimum level of decency. BTW, this does *not* mean that technical arguments are verboten. It just means that they shouldn't get all emotional and personal. Without some differences of opinion and some discussions of code on its merits, this would be a pretty boring list. I hope you'll stick with the list and find it valuable. Just remember no personal attacks, and everything else is fine. Except maybe goatse. And now, I'm off to add some quick guidelines to the "welcome to the list" email. Cheers, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From matt at cloudfactory.org Thu Apr 3 08:53:44 2008 From: matt at cloudfactory.org (Matthew Lanier) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <20080403154830.GB47798@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403154830.GB47798@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Quinn Weaver wrote: > ... and everything else is fine. Except maybe goatse. ... and a new threshold is crossed in the life of the sfpug ;-) m@ -- Matthew D. P. K. Strelchun-Lanier matt at cloudfactory.org http://www.bearlywornpacifica.com From extasia at extasia.org Thu Apr 3 09:39:21 2008 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:39:21 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403154830.GB47798@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <4c714a9c0804030939r113466bcxa25c47e510887a2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Matthew Lanier wrote: > ... and a new threshold is crossed in the life of the sfpug ;-) well, it's certainly educational. i had never heard of the aforementioned site. (thank you, wikipedia.) -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From biztos at mac.com Thu Apr 3 10:07:02 2008 From: biztos at mac.com (frosty) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:07:02 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EE0340C-0119-1000-B073-A0740DFFB02D-Webmail-10018@mac.com> Hi Joey. I had a look at the site, and here are my suggestions. 1) Don't try to be a "solutions destination" - Let PerlMonks be that, it's really good at it. - But there are lots of other resources you could explore and digest. - And (witness this list) there are people who prefer not to ask for Monk help. 2) Report what you learned. That's something few people do. - Present a problem (yours or someone else's) and try to find an answer. - Tell folks what you (or they) did to get the answer. - This would be really helpful to newbies. - And it would boost your PageRank, in case you care. 3) If you want it to be a Perl website, you should make more obvious. - Right now it just looks like an ordinary Linux blog with a Perl menu item. I don't want to discourage you from trying to build a local, or even virtually local, Perl community of any size. I agree with Randal that there are already a few really strong ones and your chances of getting traction are slim, but I also agree with Andy that one never knows where the next great scene will arise. I think the best way to build it is by providing useful resources to beginners (see #2 above) and giving them a simple way to ask for more info or share their insights. If enough find it useful, enough will ask, and if you're paying attention you can cultivate a conversation. You don't even need a forum until you have a large discussion going (and a forum needs an admin, etc. etc.). Simple blog comments are quite sufficient. I often find myself googling around for hints about really weird technical problems, and as often as not, the best help is found in the form of a blog post titled "How I fixed the Reflux Renoberator in Ubuntu 8.2 on ARM." And if they allow comments, the best comments are things like "Worked for me but I had to install refluxlib-2.8.4 in step 3" or "Check out the similar thread at www.ubuntunoberator.com/foo.cgi?id=123." Likewise, nothing is more frustrating than finding someone's record of struggling with the same problem you have, and seeing their list thread die before any useful help was found. good luck -- frosty On Wednesday, April 02, 2008, at 02:34PM, "Joey Moe" wrote: >I wanted to mention that I started a website about Perl back in Feb. I am learning so it won't be filled with answers but I wanted to throw out a shameless plug, just in case any other people interested in learning Perl might want to visit and maybe discuss problems they are having or offer up solutions, you know in the spirit of community. I have no problem posting stuff if people want, and I have some forums. If you are interested, have a look: > >www.penguingeek.net > >If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to listen. > >Thanks for indulging me :) > >Joey Moe From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Apr 3 10:30:01 2008 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:30:01 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <4EE0340C-0119-1000-B073-A0740DFFB02D-Webmail-10018@mac.com> (biztos@mac.com's message of "Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:07:02 -0700") References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4EE0340C-0119-1000-B073-A0740DFFB02D-Webmail-10018@mac.com> Message-ID: <861w5mhmna.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "frosty" == frosty writes: frosty> Likewise, nothing is more frustrating than finding someone's record of frosty> struggling with the same problem you have, and seeing their list frosty> thread die before any useful help was found. *Or* having the wrong answer, but having no way to comment on it. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that. Frustrating to no end. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From fred at redhotpenguin.com Thu Apr 3 10:41:46 2008 From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:41:46 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <861w5mhmna.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4EE0340C-0119-1000-B073-A0740DFFB02D-Webmail-10018@mac.com> <861w5mhmna.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <47F516DA.2030807@redhotpenguin.com> Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "frosty" == frosty writes: > > frosty> Likewise, nothing is more frustrating than finding someone's record of > frosty> struggling with the same problem you have, and seeing their list > frosty> thread die before any useful help was found. > > *Or* having the wrong answer, but having no way to comment on it. I can't > tell you how many times I've seen that. Frustrating to no end. Why don't you make a visit to an SF.pm meeting then and show us how it is done? My company Red Hot Penguin will buy the food in your honor. I'm sure we can find a place to host it. But I would request you sign my mod_perl Developer's Cookbook :) - Fred -- Red Hot Penguin Consulting LLC http://www.redhotpenguin.com/ From duane.obrien at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 11:20:51 2008 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:20:51 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote: > Holy crap! Andy Lester and Randal Schwartz are duking it out on our > list. I feel like a spectator who turns up in the town square to find > Lords Montague and Capulet going at it. I would like to depart from the topic long enough to recognize that the above statement is damn funny and shout be recognized. And also, perhaps, to point out what I think is the obvious, though so far unstated. Users, new and old, ultimately turn to the resources that solve their problems the best. Not the resources that are enforced as standard, or hyped as awesome, our built with innovation, or that important people prefer. There ought to be room, even in the land of Perl, to look at the way solutions are being provided and ask "Can it be done better?" The answer may always be no, but asking the question is Important. -D -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. From fluxnet at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 11:24:26 2008 From: fluxnet at gmail.com (Bern) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:24:26 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: its the city, is Like New York for geeks On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Duane Obrien wrote: > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote: > > Holy crap! Andy Lester and Randal Schwartz are duking it out on our > > list. I feel like a spectator who turns up in the town square to find > > Lords Montague and Capulet going at it. > > I would like to depart from the topic long enough to recognize that > the above statement is damn funny and shout be recognized. > > And also, perhaps, to point out what I think is the obvious, though so > far unstated. > > Users, new and old, ultimately turn to the resources that solve their > problems the best. Not the resources that are enforced as standard, > or hyped as awesome, our built with innovation, or that important > people prefer. There ought to be room, even in the land of Perl, to > look at the way solutions are being provided and ask "Can it be done > better?" The answer may always be no, but asking the question is > Important. > > -D > -- > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080403/8cc10034/attachment.html From quinn at fairpath.com Thu Apr 3 11:27:11 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:27:11 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: <47F516DA.2030807@redhotpenguin.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4EE0340C-0119-1000-B073-A0740DFFB02D-Webmail-10018@mac.com> <861w5mhmna.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <47F516DA.2030807@redhotpenguin.com> Message-ID: <20080403182711.GA48691@fu.funkspiel.org> On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 10:41:46AM -0700, Fred Moyer wrote: > Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > *Or* having the wrong answer, but having no way to comment on it. I can't > > tell you how many times I've seen that. Frustrating to no end. > > Why don't you make a visit to an SF.pm meeting then and show us how it > is done? > My company Red Hot Penguin will buy the food in your honor. > I'm sure we can find a place to host it. Sounds good to me, contingent on what "it" is. But if it's something Randal wants to talk about, it's probably really cool. > But I would request you sign my mod_perl Developer's Cookbook :) But Randal didn't wri... hmn. Interesting idea. Anyway, sign my Perl CD Bookshelf and I'll be happy. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From andy at petdance.com Thu Apr 3 11:32:33 2008 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:32:33 -0500 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Duane Obrien wrote: >> Holy crap! Andy Lester and Randal Schwartz are duking it out on our >> list. I feel like a spectator who turns up in the town square to >> find >> Lords Montague and Capulet going at it. > > I would like to depart from the topic long enough to recognize that > the above statement is damn funny and shout be recognized. I have to say I cringed a little when I read it, because it helps reinforce the idea that there's a sort of Perl Hierarchy, or that there are Perl Gods, or that "you must be this tall to ride". Randal and I are just normal ol' Perl hackers. We just spend a lot of time on Perl, and writing about it, and talking about it. The only reason we are Perl luminaries is that we are Perl luminaries. I'm not necessarily a better programmer, or have better ideas, or I'm a better debugger than anyone else. I just do it and make noise about it. Even though Joey's response was out of line, I admire his spirit of "I'm just going to go do it." TMTOWTDI is one of the cardinal rules of Perl. Similarly, over on the module-authors list, the perennial argument of "Maybe CPAN should have minimum requirements for posting modules" has raised its ugly head. Instead, I said what I always say during these arguments: "CPAN thrives BECAUSE of the unfettered uploading of shit, not in spite of it." So to it will be with Joey's website. Maybe it will be a dismal failure. Maybe it will become the Next Great Perl resource. However, I know that there is zero chance of Next Great Perl resource if he doesn't try. The only way you get home runs is by stepping up to the plate, and if you strike out, you're doing pretty good. Batting 3/10 is a great batting average, but in real life we find those odds terrifying. Personally, as much as I like the community around Perlmonks, I think it's a terrible site for new people, and is practically unsearchable. I'd love to see something leapfrog Perlmonks and become the Next Great Thing. That's why I stopped writing to use.perl.org, because I think it's a terrible news source. Instead, I started perlbuzz.com, and went with that. Yes, it's different, but that's OK. Let a thousand flowers bloom! xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From family_geek at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 12:07:59 2008 From: family_geek at yahoo.com (Joey Moe) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Perl website for noobies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <553055.74752.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I'm sorry that I seemed to piss off the perl community. That wasn't my intention. and I apologize to Randall, I didn't mean to come off like I did, but I did take it personally since it seemed that all your frustration with the community as a whole was dumped on me after just one post. I wasn't expecting that. I respect your knowledge and I understand your frustration with the community as I wish you could relate to my frustration in asking for help and either being blown off by experts or just not getting any response at all. For a while I just stopped posting anything. I just thought I'd take a chance and post here, not expecting to upset the status quo. I don't know about anybody else here, but I look at my computers the way guys used to look at their muscle cars in the 70s. Like building a car from the frame up, I work on my code, and and like to show off what I've done...and if given the chance stand around with a group of friends and talk about it. That's why the code on my site is labeled as "Projects", because I see it as work in progress. I mean I want to know if it's wrong or if it can be improved. Frosty, I appreciate the constructive criticism. I'm still not sure how I want this site to evolve, but it's only 2 months old and I only have a couple of posts under my belt. Your points are completely valid. I'm still building content and like the code, the site is still evolving. Like I keep saying, I'm not trying to compete for pagerank or support with sites like perlmonks. I agree that perlmonks does a good job of providing solutions. I guess the only reason I even included forums on my site at all is in some dumb "if you build it, they will come" pipe dream. Like I said, I don't care if the experts come hang out or not...or any one else for that matter. But even if just one more noobie shows up and wants to talk about stuff, I'm going to work with them and we'll learn together. That's where my heart is on the command line. Maybe my execution sucks, but my passion should at least count for something. It's just very disheartening, especially as a budding programmer, to be met with such disdain so quickly. Joey Moe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080403/a42e4358/attachment.html From shlomif at iglu.org.il Thu Apr 3 12:09:45 2008 From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 22:09:45 +0300 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200804032209.46032.shlomif@iglu.org.il> On Thursday 03 April 2008, Joey Moe wrote: > It seem that by simply mentioning that I set up a site about perl, (not > mentioning that I had any answers, and clearly saying I wasn't trying to > compete with sites like perlmonks which I, myself have visited many times), > I upset people. My site is more of a blog about my own learning. I never > said I was trying to teach anyone, and it seems that Randall Swartz came > out of the womb a Perl expert because that's all he keeps saying. Someone > seems very insecure in what he knows. At least I can admit that I'm a > beginner, and it's attitude like Randall's that made me decide to start my > own site. I want to share my learning experience, not badger, harass and > scare away other people who are interested in learning as well. Look at how > many sites out there where experts hang out, and noobies still don't get > answers to there questions, they just get blown off and left to fend for > themselves by experts like Randall. I just want to learn a programming > language, not run for the presidency. Don't worry Randall, I won't take > your 40 acres and mule. You can go hang out with all the cool kids on > whatever site you want, I'm perfectly fine if nobody were to come to my > site. I really don't need your validation, I was just looking to share my > learning experience. As far as being an expert, you may know alot about > Perl, but you kinda suck when it comes to people skills. I'm still a > noobie, my site is still there for anyone who is interested and I'm proud > of what I do (or don't know)....I don't know about the rest of you, but I > was really just interested in learning more perl, I didn't realize this was > a popularity contest. > Hi Joey! (and all) First of all, let me say that if you want to start a new site about learning Perl or helping Perl beginners, then all the power to you, especially if you're trying to create a more beginner-friendly atmosophere there that what you percieve in other places. From my experience with the Perl forums, it seems that some are more newbie-friendly than others, and those are the places where I usually frequent. I've been maintaining my own first-stop portal for Perl beginners to help direct beginners to the right place: http://perl-begin.org/ I've also helped with other sites of different themes like http://www.perlmeme.org/ and http://perl.net.au/. Now for a little history. Once upon a time, some people set up learn.perl.org. However, I found it inadequate and decided to start working on my own alternative site, which while online was not publicised (and was under a very obscure URL). At one time, it was decided that I'll re-design begin.perl.org but eventually I set up my own site first at http://perl-begin.berlios.de/ and now at http://perl-begin.org/ (where it is hosted courtesy of Andy Armstrong). learn.perl.org has improved since then to some extent, but I still feel my site is superior. I hope Randal does not mind me saying this, but he once stumbled upon the early Perl-Begin site (before it was publicised), and sent me a harsh note that it was competing with learn.perl.org and fragmenting the Perl community. Randal often has a bad temper, and is very uptight about some issues, but is otherwise a good guy, can be very helpful, and one of the world's foremost experts on the Perl core language and related Perl technologies. So we forgive him for his failings, because we'd be worse without him. I hope I'm not being tactless here, and would like to note that I too am not without my tactfulness failings. In any case, back to our topic: if you want to create your own new Perl site go ahead. I don't like web forums much, so I'm not sure I'll subscribe, but can still try to contribute. If you wish to contribute to a different Perl beginners' site, then I can give you some pointers where you can either contribute by simply editing/posting/talking (wiki, etc.) or we can arrange an write access to the sources for you, given enough willingness and good impression. I do however want to note that Randal has a point. Growing an Internet community is hard and not always successful, and often has an unexpected outcome. You can see what I wrote in response to what Joel Spolsky wrote about it (with a link) for some tips: http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/web/online-communities/ I started my own Beginners' mailing list for perl-begin and while the responses were very helpful and of good quality, it quickly became extremely quiet. Israel.pm started their own perl-starter mailing list (in English): http://www.perl.org.il/mailing_lists.html#starter It too has become very quiet. This is besides the fact that beginners question are still more than welcome on the main Israel.pm mailing list (which is also in English). As opposed to what Randal said, both of these attempts did not result in any significant dis-information being transmitted to the newbies, but rather never really took off. But I can relate to the phenomenon that Randal describes of clueless people teaching the beginners bad habits. The latter is worse than my experience, but I suppose it is preventable. Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif at iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V. From quinn at fairpath.com Thu Apr 3 12:19:40 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:19:40 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86y77viz3o.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8D42D584-886A-4CE9-A314-D9D2EDE8E1FF@petdance.com> <86tzijix3j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <409F154A-44A4-4564-B0F7-EF5481183FC5@petdance.com> <20080403041203.GA39279@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 01:32:33PM -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > > On Apr 3, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Duane Obrien wrote: > >> Holy crap! Andy Lester and Randal Schwartz are duking it out on our > >> list. I feel like a spectator who turns up in the town square to > >> find > >> Lords Montague and Capulet going at it. > > > > I would like to depart from the topic long enough to recognize that > > the above statement is damn funny and shout be recognized. > > > I have to say I cringed a little when I read it, because it helps > reinforce the idea that there's a sort of Perl Hierarchy, or that > there are Perl Gods, or that "you must be this tall to ride". Hi, Andy, Great post. About the Capulet/Montague thing, I was actually trying to poke fun at the idea of Perl Gods, not reinforce it. I've always found the more famous Perl people to be very approachable, friendly, and egalitarian. (Part of the fun of running this group is meeting and socializing with them.) This includes Andy, Randal, MJD, Chip Salzenberg, Paul Lindner, Doug M., and Larry Wall himself, and probably others I'm forgetting (my apologies!) One of the great things about the Perl community is that it's laid-back and not hoity-toity. So, yeah... there are no gods, only heroes. And anyone can become a hero. And even heroes are just regular people. Rock on, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From shlomif at iglu.org.il Thu Apr 3 12:44:03 2008 From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 22:44:03 +0300 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> On Thursday 03 April 2008, Quinn Weaver wrote: > On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 01:32:33PM -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > > On Apr 3, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Duane Obrien wrote: > > >> Holy crap! Andy Lester and Randal Schwartz are duking it out on our > > >> list. I feel like a spectator who turns up in the town square to > > >> find > > >> Lords Montague and Capulet going at it. > > > > > > I would like to depart from the topic long enough to recognize that > > > the above statement is damn funny and shout be recognized. > > > > I have to say I cringed a little when I read it, because it helps > > reinforce the idea that there's a sort of Perl Hierarchy, or that > > there are Perl Gods, or that "you must be this tall to ride". > > Hi, Andy, > > Great post. About the Capulet/Montague thing, I was actually trying > to poke fun at the idea of Perl Gods, not reinforce it. I've always > found the more famous Perl people to be very approachable, friendly, > and egalitarian. (Part of the fun of running this group is meeting > and socializing with them.) This includes Andy, Randal, MJD, Chip > Salzenberg, Paul Lindner, Doug M., and Larry Wall himself, and > probably others I'm forgetting (my apologies!) One of the great > things about the Perl community is that it's laid-back and not > hoity-toity. > > So, yeah... there are no gods, only heroes. And anyone can become > a hero. And even heroes are just regular people. > I don't suppose we should propose that as an alternative to Perl Gods, there should at least be Perl Saints: http://www.stallman.org/saint.html Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. Using nothing but Perl? (Including not C in which perl 5 is written?) Oh well. Not that I mind the Perl Gods stereotype stuff. Regards, Shlomi Fish (a Perl saint^W hero wannabe, but definitely not a Perl God) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif at iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V. From andy at petdance.com Thu Apr 3 13:11:20 2008 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:11:20 -0500 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <200804032209.46032.shlomif@iglu.org.il> References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <200804032209.46032.shlomif@iglu.org.il> Message-ID: <308D91FA-488F-4171-9D3D-C2FDBA8D2300@petdance.com> On Apr 3, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote: > Growing an Internet > community is hard and not always successful, and often has an > unexpected > outcome. And that "unexpected outcome" is exactly the point. None of us can predict the success or failure of any given venture. Who would have expected these? * A little framework called Rails would catapult Ruby into the public eye * WWW::Mechanize is popular, but WWW::Automate was not * AltaVista, the gold standard of search engines, would disappear from the public mind * A little book shipper called Amazon would grow so popular * Orkut would be so huge, and so quickly fall to Myspace and Facebook and other social networks * The Apple Lisa would be a dismal failure, but enabled the Macintosh. Look even on a smaller scale. Who got Rickrolled on Tuesday? Who could have predicted even the concept of Rickrolling a year ago? "Hey, dig this. I'm going to create this meme (in the real sense of the word) where people post links to a Rick Astley video as a joke." Absolutely absurd. There's only so much you can plan for. The entire concept of agile programming is based on the idea that you cannot plan for everything that's going to happen, so bias yourself toward action, to making things happen, to leapfrogging the status quo. xoxo, Andy -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From biztos at mac.com Thu Apr 3 13:31:53 2008 From: biztos at mac.com (frosty) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:31:53 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> Message-ID: <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> > Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. From quinn at fairpath.com Thu Apr 3 13:33:34 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:33:34 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <308D91FA-488F-4171-9D3D-C2FDBA8D2300@petdance.com> References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <200804032209.46032.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <308D91FA-488F-4171-9D3D-C2FDBA8D2300@petdance.com> Message-ID: <20080403203334.GA49596@fu.funkspiel.org> On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 03:11:20PM -0500, Andy Lester wrote: > There's only so much you can plan for. The entire concept of agile > programming is based on the idea that you cannot plan for everything > that's going to happen, so bias yourself toward action, to making > things happen, to leapfrogging the status quo. Gratuitous Antoine de Saint-Exup??ry quotation: As for the future, your task is not to foresee it, but to enable it. Couldn't resist--Saint-Ex is one of my favorite authors (he wrote The Little Prince and Flight to Arras, among others). When I worked at the IBM Almaden Research Center, this quotation was affixed to the lobby wall in big metal letters. Good motto for a research lab. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From duane.obrien at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 13:37:24 2008 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:37:24 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:31 PM, frosty wrote: > > Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. > > It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. Does that make Randal the Spanish Inquisition? -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. From andy at petdance.com Thu Apr 3 13:39:08 2008 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:39:08 -0500 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Duane Obrien wrote: >> It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. > > Does that make Randal the Spanish Inquisition? I wouldn't expect so. -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From david at fetter.org Thu Apr 3 13:40:05 2008 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:40:05 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> Message-ID: <20080403204005.GF5276@fetter.org> On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 01:37:24PM -0700, Duane Obrien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:31 PM, frosty wrote: > > > Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. > > > > It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. > > Does that make Randal the Spanish Inquisition? No on expects the Randal Schwartz condition ;) Cheers, David. -- David Fetter http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fetter at gmail.com Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate From duane.obrien at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 13:43:43 2008 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:43:43 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: <20080403204005.GF5276@fetter.org> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> <20080403204005.GF5276@fetter.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:40 PM, David Fetter wrote: > On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 01:37:24PM -0700, Duane Obrien wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:31 PM, frosty wrote: > > > > Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. > > > > > > It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. > > > > Does that make Randal the Spanish Inquisition? > > No on expects the Randal Schwartz condition ;) I almost feel honor bound now to start a noise band called The Randal Schwartz Condition. I could shout his rants into a microphone while the rest of the band flogged a newbie live on stage. -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Apr 3 14:33:20 2008 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:33:20 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: (Duane Obrien's message of "Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:43:43 -0700") References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> <20080403204005.GF5276@fetter.org> Message-ID: <86prt6fwtb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Duane" == Duane Obrien writes: Duane> I almost feel honor bound now to start a noise band called The Randal Duane> Schwartz Condition. I could shout his rants into a microphone while Duane> the rest of the band flogged a newbie live on stage. ROFL! Now I'll be obliged to perform such an act at my next karaoke appearance in the bay. Ouch! -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From asheesh at asheesh.org Thu Apr 3 14:35:34 2008 From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: <86prt6fwtb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> <20080403204005.GF5276@fetter.org> <86prt6fwtb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Duane" == Duane Obrien writes: > > Duane> I almost feel honor bound now to start a noise band called The Randal > Duane> Schwartz Condition. I could shout his rants into a microphone while > Duane> the rest of the band flogged a newbie live on stage. > > ROFL! > > Now I'll be obliged to perform such an act at my next karaoke appearance > in the bay. Ouch! You could flog a Python fan instead. I volunteer, pending availability. -- Asheesh. -- I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. -- John Cage From duane.obrien at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 14:48:43 2008 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:48:43 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: <86prt6fwtb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> <20080403204005.GF5276@fetter.org> <86prt6fwtb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Duane" == Duane Obrien writes: > > Duane> I almost feel honor bound now to start a noise band called The Randal > Duane> Schwartz Condition. I could shout his rants into a microphone while > Duane> the rest of the band flogged a newbie live on stage. > > ROFL! > > Now I'll be obliged to perform such an act at my next karaoke appearance > in the bay. Ouch! That's something I don't think most of us can miss. Do keep us posted. Alternately, The Randal Schwartz Condition is now accepting bookings for birthdays, weddings, religious ceremonies of any kind, or occasions where your consulting company throws a big party at some conference. Email me off-list for details on how to get advance copies of our demo "I'm The Real Tim Toady" -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Apr 3 14:51:10 2008 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:51:10 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: (Duane Obrien's message of "Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:48:43 -0700") References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> <20080403204005.GF5276@fetter.org> <86prt6fwtb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86lk3ufvzl.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Duane" == Duane Obrien writes: Duane> Alternately, The Randal Schwartz Condition is now accepting bookings Duane> for birthdays, weddings, religious ceremonies of any kind, or occasions Duane> where your consulting company throws a big party at some conference. Duane> Email me off-list for details on how to get advance copies of our demo Duane> "I'm The Real Tim Toady" I'm already thinking of words to the "tune" of "I'm the real Slim Shady". Damn you. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From family_geek at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 15:39:30 2008 From: family_geek at yahoo.com (Joey Moe) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Let a Thousand Flowers Bloom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <202329.66978.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> > I could shout his rants into a microphone while > the rest of the band flogged a newbie live on stage. In the interest of offering up an olive branch to Randall, I volunteer to be flogged on stage. My only request that it be to the track "The way I am" also by Eminem. :) Joey Moe From dat1965 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 16:20:47 2008 From: dat1965 at yahoo.com (David Thompson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 16:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <907505.80001.qm@web55114.mail.re4.yahoo.com> --- Duane Obrien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:31 PM, frosty wrote: > > > Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. > > > > It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. > > Does that make Randal the Spanish Inquisition? I think Newbies would be called the Schwartzian Inquisition. ;) -- David ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com From herbr at pfinders.com Thu Apr 3 18:19:31 2008 From: herbr at pfinders.com (Herb Rubin) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command Message-ID: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> All, I am trying to do an eval on a use command and if it works, then do a "use" command for real, but Perl keeps trying to compile it and getting the error that the module is missing. I tried putting the module in a scalar and it helped a bit, but I'm missing something: my $net_smtp_ssl = "Net::SMTP::SSL"; eval { use $net_smtp_ssl }; if ($@) { print "$net_smtp_ssl is missing\n"; exit; } else { use $net_smtp_ssl; } Any ideas? Herb -- Herb Rubin Pathfinders Software http://www.pfinders.com From rjray at blackperl.com Thu Apr 3 18:24:24 2008 From: rjray at blackperl.com (Randy J. Ray) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:24:24 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> Message-ID: <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> I've had this happen before, too. What you need to do is wrap the whole statement in a string: eval { "use Net::SMTP::SSL"; }; if ($@) { print "$net_smtp_ssl is missing\n"; exit; } You don't actually need the second "use". The code is now loaded and available to you. By using the eval, you have kept the application from stopping in the event that the module isn't available. Randy -- =============================================================================== Randy J. Ray rjray at blackperl.com Sunnyvale, CA http://www.rjray.org http://www.svsm.org From stephenenelson at mac.com Thu Apr 3 18:32:27 2008 From: stephenenelson at mac.com (Stephen Nelson) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:32:27 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> Message-ID: <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> I think you meant eval("use Net::SMTP::SSL"); if ($@) { print "$net_smtp_ssl is missing\n"; exit; } Otherwise I suspect it'll just do the block eval and evaluate the string. Randy J. Ray wrote: > I've had this happen before, too. What you need to do is wrap the whole > statement in a string: > > eval { > "use Net::SMTP::SSL"; > }; > > if ($@) { > print "$net_smtp_ssl is missing\n"; > exit; > } > > You don't actually need the second "use". The code is now loaded and available > to you. By using the eval, you have kept the application from stopping in the > event that the module isn't available. > > Randy > From rjray at blackperl.com Thu Apr 3 18:45:31 2008 From: rjray at blackperl.com (Randy J. Ray) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:45:31 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> Message-ID: <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> Stephen Nelson wrote: > I think you meant > > eval("use Net::SMTP::SSL"); > > if ($@) { > print "$net_smtp_ssl is missing\n"; > exit; > } > > > Otherwise I suspect it'll just do the block eval and evaluate the string. Ummm, yeah. What he said. This sort of thing happens when you're juggling too many thought-threads at once... -- =============================================================================== Randy J. Ray rjray at blackperl.com Sunnyvale, CA http://www.rjray.org http://www.svsm.org From rdm at cfcl.com Thu Apr 3 20:06:25 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 19:06:25 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 [sic] In-Reply-To: <308D91FA-488F-4171-9D3D-C2FDBA8D2300@petdance.com> References: <826845.89432.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <200804032209.46032.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <308D91FA-488F-4171-9D3D-C2FDBA8D2300@petdance.com> Message-ID: Although I realize that it's a bit of a pain, would folks who receive digested email _please_ edit the Subject back line to the original topic, so that others can know what your post is about without having to open up the message? -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Fri Apr 4 00:17:30 2008 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 00:17:30 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> Message-ID: <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> The other thing you can do is realize that, according to `perldoc -f use`: It [use] is exactly equivalent to BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } So you can put the require & import inside a conditional and get the same effect. I've chosen to use this construction for dynamic module loading: if ($needs_feature) { require Feature::Module; Feature::Module->import(); } This does the same thing as 'use', but avoids the automatic BEGIN block. However, evaling the string has the same effect and it'll handle the situation where 'use' itself has been overridden by custom code. (very rare) TIMTOWTDI. :-) -- Mike On Apr 3, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Randy J. Ray wrote: > Stephen Nelson wrote: >> I think you meant >> >> eval("use Net::SMTP::SSL"); >> >> if ($@) { >> print "$net_smtp_ssl is missing\n"; >> exit; >> } >> >> >> Otherwise I suspect it'll just do the block eval and evaluate the >> string. > > Ummm, yeah. What he said. This sort of thing happens when you're > juggling too > many thought-threads at once... > > -- > = > = > = > = > = > = > = > = > = > ====================================================================== > Randy J. Ray rjray at blackperl.com > Sunnyvale, CA http://www.rjray.org > http://www.svsm.org > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press Phone: 650-725-1974 Stanford University FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From shlomif at iglu.org.il Fri Apr 4 00:43:53 2008 From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:43:53 +0300 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom In-Reply-To: <86lk3ufvzl.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <86lk3ufvzl.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <200804041043.53920.shlomif@iglu.org.il> On Friday 04 April 2008, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Duane" == Duane Obrien writes: > > Duane> Alternately, The Randal Schwartz Condition is now accepting bookings > Duane> for birthdays, weddings, religious ceremonies of any kind, or > occasions Duane> where your consulting company throws a big party at some > conference. Duane> Email me off-list for details on how to get advance > copies of our demo Duane> "I'm The Real Tim Toady" > > I'm already thinking of words to the "tune" of "I'm the real Slim Shady". > Indeed, the "Slim Shady" song doesn't have a real tune, but there's a mix called "Oops, the Real Slim Shady Did it Again" where its words are heard to the melody and instrumental section of Britney Spears' "Oops! I did it Again.": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCuwOG39HMo (I'm serious) I actually like it much better than the original "I'm the Real Slim Shady" because it has a better melody. Regards, Shlomi Fish --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif at iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ I'm not an actor - I just play one on T.V. From rdm at cfcl.com Fri Apr 4 04:04:15 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 03:04:15 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 00:17 -0700 4/4/08, Michael Friedman wrote: > The other thing you can do is realize that, according to > `perldoc -f use`: > > It [use] is exactly equivalent to > BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } Is this true in the case of "use strict"? -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Fri Apr 4 11:42:02 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:42:02 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <200804041842.m34Ig2Fg023068@kzsu.stanford.edu> Michael Friedman wrote: > The other thing you can do is realize that, according to `perldoc -f > use`: > > It [use] is exactly equivalent to > BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } > > So you can put the require & import inside a conditional and get the > same effect. I've chosen to use this construction for dynamic module > loading: > > if ($needs_feature) { > require Feature::Module; > Feature::Module->import(); > } > > This does the same thing as 'use', but avoids the automatic BEGIN block. Yes, this is the way I tend to do it as well (for example, in the "Module::List::Pluggable" module out on CPAN [1]). But I tend to combine this with the string-eval tricks other people have been discussing: eval "require $module; import $module;"; Note that this is one of the few cases where you have to use the string form of eval (usually the block form is recommended). This is explained a little better in the documentation for "require" than it is for "use" (the jargon is that the argument must be a "bareword"): perldoc -f require [1] I looked at Module::Pluggable, but I thought it's interface was terrible, so I wrote my own. Then I found out that Module::Pluggable had made it into the core library for 5.10. Huh? From moseley at hank.org Fri Apr 4 12:56:28 2008 From: moseley at hank.org (Bill Moseley) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:56:28 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <200804041842.m34Ig2Fg023068@kzsu.stanford.edu> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> <200804041842.m34Ig2Fg023068@kzsu.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20080404195628.GB12794@hank.org> If you don't mind mucking in UNIVERSAL there's use UNIVERSAL::require; $class->require || die $@; my $foo = $class->new; -- Bill Moseley moseley at hank.org From mtheo at amural.com Fri Apr 4 12:57:23 2008 From: mtheo at amural.com (Mark Theodoropoulos) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:57:23 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom [OT addendum] In-Reply-To: <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> Message-ID: <47F68823.6070307@amural.com> >> Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. > > It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. Er, no -- that would be a Perl martyr. Perl saints simply do their best, within their human limitations, to Do It a good Way -- among the More Than One There, uh, are. (*) MT Berkeley (*) See, among others, _Vitae Sanctorum_, vol DCCLXII, _Life and Good Works of the Most Beatific St Tim Toady of Cpanius_. (Milpitas, 1992) -- m. theo producer / classics without walls the anti-warhorse zone / www.amural.com kusf 90.3fm / san francisco From duane.obrien at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 12:59:51 2008 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:59:51 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Let a thousand flowers bloom [OT addendum] In-Reply-To: <47F68823.6070307@amural.com> References: <329170.37311.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20080403191940.GA49207@fu.funkspiel.org> <200804032244.03490.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4E779110-0119-1000-9F5B-5C9B1B4898B5-Webmail-10025@mac.com> <47F68823.6070307@amural.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Mark Theodoropoulos wrote: > >> Of course, I'm not sure what being a Perl saint would imply. > > > > It would imply having been killed for your faith in Perl. > > > > Er, no -- that would be a Perl martyr. > > Quit ruining our fun with your Words and your English and all this Accurateness. -D -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. From quinn at fairpath.com Fri Apr 4 15:57:55 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:57:55 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20080404225754.GA62115@fu.funkspiel.org> On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 03:04:15AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote: > At 00:17 -0700 4/4/08, Michael Friedman wrote: > > The other thing you can do is realize that, according to > > `perldoc -f use`: > > > > It [use] is exactly equivalent to > > BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } > > Is this true in the case of "use strict"? I think so. Take a look at the strict.pm source code: vi `perldoc -l strict` There's a 'sub import' in there which seems to set strict refs and/or subs and/or vars according to what you write in 'use strict LIST'. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Fri Apr 4 16:04:51 2008 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:04:51 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <20080404225754.GA62115@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <13927640.10991207271971997.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F58348.9080304@blackperl.com> <47F5852B.8020100@mac.com> <47F5883B.3030705@blackperl.com> <90663F88-04AC-44F5-90D4-1CD157600665@highwire.stanford.edu> <20080404225754.GA62115@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <7F385FBA-FE38-49A1-8D7E-6F153034999A@highwire.stanford.edu> I'd been waiting to try it out before replying, but it seems to work for 'use strict' at least. However, since the special directives (non-modules) that go with 'use' don't actually get a default BEGIN block, there's no need to use require and import. You can ... bad code ... use strict; ... good code ... no strict; ... bad code ... as much as you want. -- Mike On Apr 4, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote: > On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 03:04:15AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote: >> At 00:17 -0700 4/4/08, Michael Friedman wrote: >>> The other thing you can do is realize that, according to >>> `perldoc -f use`: >>> >>> It [use] is exactly equivalent to >>> BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } >> >> Is this true in the case of "use strict"? > > I think so. Take a look at the strict.pm source code: > > vi `perldoc -l strict` > > There's a 'sub import' in there which seems to set strict refs and/ > or subs > and/or vars according to what you write in 'use strict LIST'. > > -- > Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco > Perl Mongers > http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ > 510-520-5217 > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press Phone: 650-725-1974 Stanford University FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From herbr at pfinders.com Fri Apr 4 16:19:22 2008 From: herbr at pfinders.com (Herb Rubin) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <7F385FBA-FE38-49A1-8D7E-6F153034999A@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <23053035.11501207351162561.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> Guys, Now I have too much information on this issue. I am still stuck with this code not working: $module = "Net::SMTP"; require $module; However this works: use Net::SMTP; Why is require not letting me use the variable? Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Friedman" To: "San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group" Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 4:04:51 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: Re: [sf-perl] dynamic use command I'd been waiting to try it out before replying, but it seems to work for 'use strict' at least. However, since the special directives (non-modules) that go with 'use' don't actually get a default BEGIN block, there's no need to use require and import. You can ... bad code ... use strict; ... good code ... no strict; ... bad code ... as much as you want. -- Mike On Apr 4, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote: > On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 03:04:15AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote: >> At 00:17 -0700 4/4/08, Michael Friedman wrote: >>> The other thing you can do is realize that, according to >>> `perldoc -f use`: >>> >>> It [use] is exactly equivalent to >>> BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } >> >> Is this true in the case of "use strict"? > > I think so. Take a look at the strict.pm source code: > > vi `perldoc -l strict` > > There's a 'sub import' in there which seems to set strict refs and/ > or subs > and/or vars according to what you write in 'use strict LIST'. > > -- > Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco > Perl Mongers > http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ > 510-520-5217 > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press Phone: 650-725-1974 Stanford University FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ SanFrancisco-pm mailing list SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm -- Herb Rubin Pathfinders Software http://www.pfinders.com From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Fri Apr 4 16:34:36 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:34:36 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <23053035.11501207351162561.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> References: <23053035.11501207351162561.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> Message-ID: <200804042334.m34NYaF3028754@kzsu.stanford.edu> This is what I was trying to tell you about "barewords". Try this: $module = "Net::SMTP"; eval "require $module"; Herb Rubin wrote: > Now I have too much information on this issue. I am still stuck with this > code not working: > > $module = "Net::SMTP"; > require $module; > > However this works: > > use Net::SMTP; > > Why is require not letting me use the variable? > > Herb > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Friedman" > To: "San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group" > Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 4:04:51 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles > Subject: Re: [sf-perl] dynamic use command > > I'd been waiting to try it out before replying, but it seems to work > for 'use strict' at least. > > However, since the special directives (non-modules) that go with 'use' > don't actually get a default BEGIN block, there's no need to use > require and import. You can > > > ... bad code ... > > use strict; > > ... good code ... > > no strict; > > ... bad code ... > > > as much as you want. > > -- Mike > > On Apr 4, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 03:04:15AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote: > >> At 00:17 -0700 4/4/08, Michael Friedman wrote: > >>> The other thing you can do is realize that, according to > >>> `perldoc -f use`: > >>> > >>> It [use] is exactly equivalent to > >>> BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } > >> > >> Is this true in the case of "use strict"? > > > > I think so. Take a look at the strict.pm source code: > > > > vi `perldoc -l strict` > > > > There's a 'sub import' in there which seems to set strict refs and/ > > or subs > > and/or vars according to what you write in 'use strict LIST'. From herbr at pfinders.com Fri Apr 4 18:21:01 2008 From: herbr at pfinders.com (Herb Rubin) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 18:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <200804042334.m34NYaF3028754@kzsu.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <17376456.11591207358461253.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> Joe, So, will eval have the module loaded outside the eval? Or will I have to require it "for real"? I thought eval was a sandbox of sorts. Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Brenner" To: "San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group" Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 4:34:36 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles Subject: Re: [sf-perl] dynamic use command This is what I was trying to tell you about "barewords". Try this: $module = "Net::SMTP"; eval "require $module"; Herb Rubin wrote: > Now I have too much information on this issue. I am still stuck with this > code not working: > > $module = "Net::SMTP"; > require $module; > > However this works: > > use Net::SMTP; > > Why is require not letting me use the variable? > > Herb > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Friedman" > To: "San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group" > Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 4:04:51 PM (GMT-0800) America/Los_Angeles > Subject: Re: [sf-perl] dynamic use command > > I'd been waiting to try it out before replying, but it seems to work > for 'use strict' at least. > > However, since the special directives (non-modules) that go with 'use' > don't actually get a default BEGIN block, there's no need to use > require and import. You can > > > ... bad code ... > > use strict; > > ... good code ... > > no strict; > > ... bad code ... > > > as much as you want. > > -- Mike > > On Apr 4, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 03:04:15AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote: > >> At 00:17 -0700 4/4/08, Michael Friedman wrote: > >>> The other thing you can do is realize that, according to > >>> `perldoc -f use`: > >>> > >>> It [use] is exactly equivalent to > >>> BEGIN { require Module; import Module LIST; } > >> > >> Is this true in the case of "use strict"? > > > > I think so. Take a look at the strict.pm source code: > > > > vi `perldoc -l strict` > > > > There's a 'sub import' in there which seems to set strict refs and/ > > or subs > > and/or vars according to what you write in 'use strict LIST'. _______________________________________________ SanFrancisco-pm mailing list SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm -- Herb Rubin Pathfinders Software http://www.pfinders.com From rjray at blackperl.com Fri Apr 4 18:54:48 2008 From: rjray at blackperl.com (Randy J. Ray) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:54:48 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <17376456.11591207358461253.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> References: <17376456.11591207358461253.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> Message-ID: <47F6DBE8.6020703@blackperl.com> > So, will eval have the module loaded outside the eval? > Or will I have to require it "for real"? > > I thought eval was a sandbox of sorts. No, it merely prevents a fatal error from stopping the program (instead, the error message is saved in the special variable, $@). The code is loaded, and any exporting it does is to the package-space in which the eval was called. Randy -- =============================================================================== Randy J. Ray rjray at blackperl.com Sunnyvale, CA http://www.rjray.org http://www.svsm.org From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Fri Apr 4 19:26:04 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 19:26:04 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] dynamic use command In-Reply-To: <47F6DBE8.6020703@blackperl.com> References: <17376456.11591207358461253.JavaMail.root@z01.pfinders.com> <47F6DBE8.6020703@blackperl.com> Message-ID: <200804050226.m352Q4sX031653@kzsu.stanford.edu> Randy J. Ray wrote: > > So, will eval have the module loaded outside the eval? > > Or will I have to require it "for real"? > > > > I thought eval was a sandbox of sorts. > > No, it merely prevents a fatal error from stopping the program (instead, the > error message is saved in the special variable, $@). The code is loaded, and > any exporting it does is to the package-space in which the eval was called. Yes, that's right. And if you like you can import symbols into any arbitrary package, by re-opening it with another "package" statement. I've been known to do things like this: sub dynamic_use { my $module = shift; my $calling_namespace = caller(0); $eval_code = "package $calling_namespace; " . "require $module; " . "import $module;" ; eval $eval_code; if ($@) { return 0; } else { return 1; } } From quinn at fairpath.com Mon Apr 7 08:32:30 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 08:32:30 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Something cool (LugRadio) Message-ID: <20080407153230.GA94995@fu.funkspiel.org> Reminder: the LugRadio Live conference is this coming weekend, April 12-13, at the Metreon. It's $10 to attend! Thanks, Google, O'Reilly, et al. Some of us are running a Perl Mongers booth there; feel free to drop by and say hi. http://lugradio.org/live/USA2008/ There will be a conference party Saturday evening, so maybe we'll see you there. Be careful; don't let these Brits drink you under the table. Besides all this, I am planning to have a dinner meeting on April 22 (fourth Tuesday, as usual). I'll send out details after I get my life back. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From afife at untangle.com Fri Apr 11 18:28:57 2008 From: afife at untangle.com (Andrew Fife) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Eric Allman @ BALUG (Tuesday!!) Message-ID: <00f601c89c3c$92970240$8600000a@afmeatloaf> Hi Folks: BALUG is very proud to host Eric Allman as our speaker this Tuesday, April 15th. Eric Allman is the original author of sendmail and he is giving an excellent talk titled "Email Evolvoing." (see abstract below) If you'd like to come please drop us an RSVP: rsvp at balug.org ***Why RSVP?*** We won't turn anyone away, but the RSVP's really help the Four Seas Restaurant know how much food to prepare and ensure that BALUG gets to meet in the upstairs banquette room. ***When & Where*** 6:30pm The Four Seas Restaruant 731 Grant Ave. San Francisco, CA 94108 Parking: $5 garage @ 733 Kearney (1 block away) ***Cost**** The meeting is free, but dinner is $13 for the family style Chinese dinner. ***Abstract*** Internet email is in a process of rapid evolution. Besides the obvious things, such as spam and malware, many other technology trends are having an impact. These include mobile devices, new messaging technologies, social networking, changing legal requirements, the rise of Software as a Service and Service Oriented Architectures, and an unstable underpinning of the network itself. Not surprisingly, many of these same forces do or will affect other parts of the network. This talk will describe these evolutionary pressures, point out some of the unexpected consequences of our attempts to adapt to these pressures, and make some dire predictions for the future. Generous time will be allotted to Q&A. -- Andrew Fife Untangle - The Open Source Network Gateway www.untangle.com/download 650.425.3327 desk 415.806.6028 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080411/9c4fee9c/attachment.html From rdm at cfcl.com Sat Apr 12 02:08:37 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:08:37 -0800 Subject: [sf-perl] Eric Allman @ BALUG (Tuesday!!) In-Reply-To: <00f601c89c3c$92970240$8600000a@afmeatloaf> References: <00f601c89c3c$92970240$8600000a@afmeatloaf> Message-ID: At 18:28 -0700 4/11/08, Andrew Fife wrote: > ... he is giving an excellent talk titled "Email Evolvoing." Well, Mark Shuttleworth is a hard act to follow, but Eric has some serious chops as a developer, entrepreneur, and survivor of the Email and Un*x wars. Anyway, I'm glad to see he's talking about Evolvos; I thought I was the only person on the Internet who still drives one... -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From fluxnet at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 07:47:59 2008 From: fluxnet at gmail.com (Bern) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:47:59 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Eric Allman @ BALUG (Tuesday!!) In-Reply-To: References: <00f601c89c3c$92970240$8600000a@afmeatloaf> Message-ID: you balug people sure like that restaurant On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Rich Morin wrote: > At 18:28 -0700 4/11/08, Andrew Fife wrote: > > ... he is giving an excellent talk titled "Email Evolvoing." > > Well, Mark Shuttleworth is a hard act to follow, but Eric has > some serious chops as a developer, entrepreneur, and survivor > of the Email and Un*x wars. > > Anyway, I'm glad to see he's talking about Evolvos; I thought > I was the only person on the Internet who still drives one... > > -r > -- > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 > > Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080412/5b901439/attachment.html From quinn at fairpath.com Mon Apr 14 18:53:56 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:53:56 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] LugRadio thanks Message-ID: <20080415015356.GA23136@mtn.fairpath.com> LugRadio was a blast. :) I want to give a shout-out to our awesome volunteers, Fred, Joe, Julian, and Yary, for staffing the booth, working spontaneous extra shifts, helping with load-out and technical probs, and even letting me slip away for some talks. Also, special thanks to Jackie and Randal (who aren't even Perl programmers) for painting the sign. Now we have a nice onion-themed placard. Combined with our demo system, and Joe's Perlcast-playing system, that means we pretty much have a booth-in-a-box for future events. Finally, Julian and Jackie spent an hour and a half on the Bay Bridge in order to transport the demo system. For this, they get a special Purple Onion. :) All the talks were filmed, and the video should be up soon. I'll send that info when I get it. Thanks, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From david at fetter.org Mon Apr 14 20:49:54 2008 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:49:54 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] LugRadio thanks In-Reply-To: <20080415015356.GA23136@mtn.fairpath.com> References: <20080415015356.GA23136@mtn.fairpath.com> Message-ID: <20080415034954.GB1795@fetter.org> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 06:53:56PM -0700, Quinn Weaver wrote: > LugRadio was a blast. :) I couldn't make it, but would love to see some of the video. Kudos to all who did make it :) Cheers, David (about to head Way South for about a week) -- David Fetter http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david.fetter at gmail.com Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate From afife at untangle.com Tue Apr 15 12:16:06 2008 From: afife at untangle.com (Andrew Fife) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] LugRadio thanks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e301c89f2d$26354870$0200a8c0@afmeatloaf> Yeah, LugRadio Live was a cool event. I dunno if anyone else had a chance to take a stroll out on the balcony, but that view of Yerba Beuna Gardens, SFMOMA and the cityscape was pretty impressive. -- Andrew Fife Untangle - The Open Source Network Gateway www.untangle.com/download 650.425.3327 desk 415.806.6028 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080415/f64df14a/attachment.html From kam.s.kullar at us.hsbc.com Wed Apr 16 07:10:49 2008 From: kam.s.kullar at us.hsbc.com (kam.s.kullar at us.hsbc.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:49 -0500 Subject: [sf-perl] Kam S Kullar is out of the office Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting Fri 02/01/2008 and will not return until Wed 04/23/2008. I have limited access to emails for immediate assistance please contact Vish Bypanhalli. ----------------------------------------- ****************************************************************** This E-mail is confidential. It may also be legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you may not copy, forward, disclose or use any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and all copies from your system and notify the sender immediately by return E-mail. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be timely, secure, error or virus-free. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions. ****************************************************************** SAVE PAPER - THINK BEFORE YOU PRINT! From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Wed Apr 16 21:17:52 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:17:52 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] LugRadio thanks In-Reply-To: <20080415015356.GA23136@mtn.fairpath.com> References: <20080415015356.GA23136@mtn.fairpath.com> Message-ID: <200804170417.m3H4Hqkd053995@kzsu.stanford.edu> Quinn Weaver wrote: > LugRadio was a blast. :) > > I want to give a shout-out to our awesome volunteers, Fred, Joe, Julian, and > Yary, for staffing the booth, working spontaneous extra shifts, helping with > load-out and technical probs, and even letting me slip away for some talks. No prob. Hanging out on the top floor of the Metreon chatting about perl isn't all that rough. > Joe's Perlcast-playing system Just some computer speakers I brought along as an experiment. The environment was a little too noisy for it really, but I thought it made sense given the "LugRadio" theme. And there's a lot of good material out there between the Perlcast and FLOSS interviews (why listen to me talk about perl when you can listen to Stas Bekman or Brian d Foy?). Anyway, there's more that could be done in the direction of pm presentations... maybe I'll write that up at some point. From quinn at fairpath.com Fri Apr 18 19:52:35 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:52:35 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings Message-ID: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at least some vegetarian food. From josh at agliodbs.com Sat Apr 19 07:53:42 2008 From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:53:42 -0300 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> Message-ID: <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> Quinn Weaver wrote: > We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest > a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able > to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at > least some vegetarian food. No such beast. Believe me, I searched for dinner venues for the other SFPUG for several meetings, and there is no restaurant which is quiet, affordable, good, and near BART. Quiet is the hardest part. So, you can have a quiet, affordable restaurant with adequate food which is nowhere near Bart, or a quiet restaurant with good food near BART which is very expensive, or a quiet restaurant near BART with terrible food, or a good, BARTable restaurant which is very noisy. --Josh Berkus From not.com at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 13:13:13 2008 From: not.com at gmail.com (yary) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:13:13 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: <75cbfa570804191313h278bf3a6s3bad47d504a589e0@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > Quinn Weaver wrote: > > We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest > > a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able > > to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at > > least some vegetarian food. Can you put some bounds on "uncertain number of people?" I'm partial to my neighborhood (Glen Park) though it's pretty darn tiny. This one could probably accomodate around a dozen folks and not be too strained: http://sfsurvey.com/rd.asp?r=1239 Super Star Yong De, Chinese & Japanese food I've eaten in there and it's OK. I really like eggettes for snacks, and they have wi-fi plus an area where a bunch of people could hang out. Noise is quite variable and overall I think it's not the place for us, but hey- http://www.yelp.com/biz/eggettes-san-francisco-2 There are some more upscale places, but might be hard to get a big group in them, and some more downscale places, but they'd give folks a bad impression. Old Jerusulem is near the 24th St BART and is good middle eastern. I suppose falafel, taboulle etc ok for vegans. http://www.yelp.com/biz/old-jerusalem-restaurant-san-francisco > No such beast. Believe me, I searched for dinner venues for the other > SFPUG for several meetings, and there is no restaurant which is quiet, > affordable, good, and near BART. Quiet is the hardest part. > > So, you can have a quiet, affordable restaurant with adequate food which > is nowhere near Bart, or a quiet restaurant with good food near BART > which is very expensive, or a quiet restaurant near BART with terrible > food, or a good, BARTable restaurant which is very noisy. > > --Josh Berkus > > > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Sat Apr 19 13:31:07 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:31:07 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: <200804192031.m3JKV7uB004072@kzsu.stanford.edu> Josh Berkus wrote: > Quinn Weaver wrote: > > We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest > > a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able > > to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at > > least some vegetarian food. > > No such beast. Believe me, I searched for dinner venues for the other > SFPUG for several meetings, and there is no restaurant which is quiet, > affordable, good, and near BART. Quiet is the hardest part. > > So, you can have a quiet, affordable restaurant with adequate food which > is nowhere near Bart, or a quiet restaurant with good food near BART > which is very expensive, or a quiet restaurant near BART with terrible > food, or a good, BARTable restaurant which is very noisy. Well, you're right that this is a tough one, but I would suggest "Naan-N-Curry" at 336 O'Farrell Street, between Mason and Taylor. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=336+OFarrell+St,+San+Francisco,+CA+94102,+USA (1) Bartable: From Powell St. Station, you walk two blocks north, one and a half blocks west. (2) Not too noisy: The ceilings are acoustic office tiling that they've hung some fabric over: this place can not do the echoy roar that the aging yupsters are addicted to. They play some music (often really good music), but not too loud. (3) Uncertain numbers of people: They've got a double-size dining room with large tables, and though I don't believe they take reservations, I doubt a crowd of a dozen or so would be hard to seat, and even if we got two dozen I think we could deal. (4) some vegetarian food Well, this is an Indian place. I'm a fan of the spinach/potato dish there ("Aloo Palak", I think). The food here is really good and it's certainly inexpensive (and the Chai is free). It's a better place to go with at least one person to split with, so doing a large group should work fine. From cweyl at alumni.drew.edu Sat Apr 19 14:39:56 2008 From: cweyl at alumni.drew.edu (Chris Weyl) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:39:56 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > Quinn Weaver wrote: > > We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest > > a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able > > to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at > > least some vegetarian food. > > No such beast. Believe me, I searched for dinner venues for the other > SFPUG for several meetings, and there is no restaurant which is quiet, > affordable, good, and near BART. Quiet is the hardest part. > > So, you can have a quiet, affordable restaurant with adequate food which > is nowhere near Bart, or a quiet restaurant with good food near BART > which is very expensive, or a quiet restaurant near BART with terrible > food, or a good, BARTable restaurant which is very noisy. What about yum-yum house? It's not huge, but extremely tasty and very flexible with the use of "fake meat". At 17th/valencia, about 2 blocks from the 16th St BART station... -Chris -- Chris Weyl Ex astris, scientia From not.com at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 16:42:12 2008 From: not.com at gmail.com (yary) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:42:12 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36@mail.gmail.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <75cbfa570804191642j13a1ff2dn9f8e015401dad730@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Chris Weyl wrote: > What about yum-yum house? It's not huge, but extremely tasty and very > flexible with the use of "fake meat". At 17th/valencia, about 2 > blocks from the 16th St BART station... That's a yummy spot as well. (So is the restaurant named "Yum" in the Sunset. Places with "yum" or a variation are a good bet...) Joe said: >Well, you're right that this is a tough one, but I would suggest >"Naan-N-Curry" at 336 O'Farrell Street, between Mason and Taylor. I'm not sure if Naan-N-Curry lives up to its former days. There are some very good Indian restaurants around there. I'd recommend a quick search of reviews to find a nice big delicious spot. (Off list Joe emailed me saying he had is eye on eggettes as well...) From rdm at cfcl.com Sat Apr 19 17:35:06 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:35:06 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> Message-ID: Wild Pepper is quiet, by and large, because they don't get all that big a dinner crowd. They have been very accommodating to BASS, pulling together tables as more folks showed up. Their food is tasty, inexpensive, and veg-friendly (with care). Finally, they are eminently BARTable, being only two blocks from the 25th & Mission station: Wild Pepper 3601 26th St. (near San Jose Ave.) San Francisco, California, USA 415/695-767[89] -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Sat Apr 19 19:07:34 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:07:34 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <75cbfa570804191642j13a1ff2dn9f8e015401dad730@mail.gmail.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36@mail.gmail.com> <75cbfa570804191642j13a1ff2dn9f8e015401dad730@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804200207.m3K27Ymu007969@kzsu.stanford.edu> yary wrote: > Chris Weyl wrote: > > What about yum-yum house? It's not huge, but extremely tasty and very > > flexible with the use of "fake meat". At 17th/valencia, about 2 > > blocks from the 16th St BART station... > > That's a yummy spot as well. (So is the restaurant named "Yum" in the > Sunset. Places with "yum" or a variation are a good bet...) But do you think it can deal with a largeish crowd, if need be? (I like Tan Tham II -- a Vietnamese place next door to Yum Yum -- but I think it would be a squeeze, and they're both around the same size.) > Joe said: > > >Well, you're right that this is a tough one, but I would suggest > >"Naan-N-Curry" at 336 O'Farrell Street, between Mason and Taylor. > > I'm not sure if Naan-N-Curry lives up to its former days. After posting, I remembered that Yary is perhaps the only person I know of that doesn't really like the place. Raven and I have been there recently, and still think it's good. > There are some very good Indian restaurants around there. I'd > recommend a quick search of reviews to find a nice big delicious spot. None of the ones I know would accomodate 12-24 folks without sweat. > (Off list Joe emailed me saying he had is eye on eggettes as well...) In general, I think the Glenn Park neighborhood is jumping, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of Yary's picks would work well (the places I've actually been to though, would be too small). It might not seem very San Francisco, but it is right on Bart. From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Sat Apr 19 19:09:34 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:09:34 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> Message-ID: <200804200209.m3K29YSV007992@kzsu.stanford.edu> Rich Morin wrote: > Wild Pepper is quiet, by and large, because they don't get all > that big a dinner crowd. They have been very accommodating to > BASS, pulling together tables as more folks showed up. Their > food is tasty, inexpensive, and veg-friendly (with care). > > Finally, they are eminently BARTable, being only two blocks > from the 25th & Mission station: > > Wild Pepper > 3601 26th St. (near San Jose Ave.) > San Francisco, California, USA > 415/695-767[89] The Bart stop is at 24th Street really, but yes, it's walkable. They do a lot of takeout, so the dining room itself is rarely all-that-crowded. From not.com at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 10:23:00 2008 From: not.com at gmail.com (yary) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:23:00 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <200804200207.m3K27Ymu007969@kzsu.stanford.edu> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36@mail.gmail.com> <75cbfa570804191642j13a1ff2dn9f8e015401dad730@mail.gmail.com> <200804200207.m3K27Ymu007969@kzsu.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <75cbfa570804201023o4b49443fy34d4b10c36541351@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Joe Brenner wrote: > ... > > That's a yummy spot as well. (So is the restaurant named "Yum" in the > > Sunset. Places with "yum" or a variation are a good bet...) > > But do you think it can deal with a largeish crowd, if need be? > (I like Tan Tham II -- a Vietnamese place next door to Yum Yum -- > but I think it would be a squeeze, and they're both around the same > size.) Yum Yum is a bit narrow- probably not good for a large turnout, unless there's a room in the back I don't know about. > > Joe said:... > > After posting, I remembered that Yary is perhaps the only person I know > of that doesn't really like the place. > > Raven and I have been there recently, and still think it's good. I could be thinking of the wrong restaurant, and even if I'm not, I'd rather have Indian food than Chinese/Japanese (I've never had Indian food I didn't like!) > > There are some very good Indian restaurants around there. I'd > > recommend a quick search of reviews to find a nice big delicious spot. > > None of the ones I know would accomodate 12-24 folks without sweat. I can think of a couple, but while trying to re-discover their names (just know by general location) came up with another interesting idea- Golden Era http://www.goldeneravegetarian.com/ It is large, 3.5 blocks from Powell BART, and all vegetarian- meat-eaters like myself find it quite good too. > > (Off list Joe emailed me saying he had is eye on eggettes as well...) > > In general, I think the Glenn Park neighborhood is jumping, and I > wouldn't be surprised if one of Yary's picks would work well (the > places I've actually been to though, would be too small). It might > not seem very San Francisco, but it is right on Bart. There aren't any restaurants with large extra rooms in the back. Some are largish in their main room. They are all about as close to the BART station as possible... I have only been to two SFPUG meetings and need to see a few more before recommending any place with confidence they can hold us. From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Sun Apr 20 12:24:52 2008 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:24:52 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <75cbfa570804201023o4b49443fy34d4b10c36541351@mail.gmail.com> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36@mail.gmail.com> <75cbfa570804191642j13a1ff2dn9f8e015401dad730@mail.gmail.com> <200804200207.m3K27Ymu007969@kzsu.stanford.edu> <75cbfa570804201023o4b49443fy34d4b10c36541351@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804201924.m3KJOqGL017820@kzsu.stanford.edu> yary wrote: > Golden Era http://www.goldeneravegetarian.com/ It is large, 3.5 blocks > from Powell BART, and all vegetarian- meat-eaters like myself find it > quite good too. Yeah, that's a great place, and highly recommended. But really it's more like six blocks from the Bart station, and it's closed on Tuesdays. And while the one large table they've got would be great for a meeting of six people, I think they'd need to push some together for a group of a dozen... I'd want to talk to them about this first, myself. But it *is* a great place: It appears to be run by a sect of some sort of Asian Mormans (free religious literature is available); it has a glitzy, ornate interior (like the Great American Music Hall painted gold and squeeze into a basement); and they do amazing things with fake meat: the ginger fish seems like some sort of mutant fish that has no eyes. From josh at agliodbs.com Sun Apr 20 13:00:40 2008 From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:00:40 -0300 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <200804201924.m3KJOqGL017820@kzsu.stanford.edu> References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> <480A0776.3090407@agliodbs.com> <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36@mail.gmail.com> <75cbfa570804191642j13a1ff2dn9f8e015401dad730@mail.gmail.com> <200804200207.m3K27Ymu007969@kzsu.stanford.edu> <75cbfa570804201023o4b49443fy34d4b10c36541351@mail.gmail.com> <200804201924.m3KJOqGL017820@kzsu.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <480BA0E8.2060108@agliodbs.com> All, > *is* a great place: It appears to be run by a sect of some > sort of Asian Mormans (free religious literature is available); > it has a glitzy, ornate interior (like the Great American Music > Hall painted gold and squeeze into a basement); and they do amazing > things with fake meat: the ginger fish seems like some sort of > mutant fish that has no eyes. Caution here: absolutely every dish at Golden Triangle has fake meat in it. There's no "just vegetables" items on the menu. The place kind of freaked me out, really. It *would* be quiet though. --Josh From rdm at cfcl.com Sun Apr 20 23:28:22 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:28:22 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] BASS Meeting (SF), Wed. April 23 Message-ID: The Beer and Scripting SIG rides again! If you'd like to eat good Italian food, chat with other local scripters, and possibly take a look at laptop-demoed scripting hacks, this is the place to do it! For your convenience, here are the critical details: Date: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 (4th. Wed.) Time: 8:00 pm Place: Pasquales Pizzeria 701 Irving St. (At 8th. Ave.) San Francisco, California, USA 415/661-2140 See the BASS web page for more information: http://cfcl.com/rdm/bass/ -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From fluxnet at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 08:24:33 2008 From: fluxnet at gmail.com (Bern) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:24:33 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] BASS Meeting (SF), Wed. April 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry new here is this Bass same thing as the perl meeting for Tuesday ? On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Rich Morin wrote: > The Beer and Scripting SIG rides again! If you'd like to > eat good Italian food, chat with other local scripters, > and possibly take a look at laptop-demoed scripting hacks, > this is the place to do it! > > For your convenience, here are the critical details: > > Date: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 (4th. Wed.) > Time: 8:00 pm > Place: Pasquales Pizzeria > 701 Irving St. (At 8th. Ave.) > San Francisco, California, USA > 415/661-2140 > > > See the BASS web page for more information: > > http://cfcl.com/rdm/bass/ > > -r > -- > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 > > Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080421/160f47a6/attachment.html From kenuhl at berkeley.edu Mon Apr 21 09:07:08 2008 From: kenuhl at berkeley.edu (ken uhl) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:07:08 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] SanFrancisco-pm Digest, Vol 39, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480CBBAC.1050705@berkeley.edu> sanfrancisco-pm-request at pm.org wrote: > Send SanFrancisco-pm mailing list submissions to > sanfrancisco-pm at pm.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > sanfrancisco-pm-request at pm.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > sanfrancisco-pm-owner at pm.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of SanFrancisco-pm digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Dinner meetings (yary) > 2. Re: Dinner meetings (Joe Brenner) > 3. Re: Dinner meetings (Chris Weyl) > 4. Re: Dinner meetings (yary) > 5. Re: Dinner meetings (Rich Morin) > 6. Re: Dinner meetings (Joe Brenner) > 7. Re: Dinner meetings (Joe Brenner) > 8. Re: Dinner meetings (yary) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:13:13 -0700 > From: yary > Subject: Re: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings > To: "San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group" > Message-ID: > <75cbfa570804191313h278bf3a6s3bad47d504a589e0 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > >> Quinn Weaver wrote: >> > We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest >> > a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able >> > to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at >> > least some vegetarian food. >> > > Can you put some bounds on "uncertain number of people?" I'm partial > to my neighborhood (Glen Park) though it's pretty darn tiny. This one > could probably accomodate around a dozen folks and not be too > strained: > > http://sfsurvey.com/rd.asp?r=1239 Super Star Yong De, Chinese & Japanese food > > I've eaten in there and it's OK. > > I really like eggettes for snacks, and they have wi-fi plus an area > where a bunch of people could hang out. Noise is quite variable and > overall I think it's not the place for us, but hey- > http://www.yelp.com/biz/eggettes-san-francisco-2 > > There are some more upscale places, but might be hard to get a big > group in them, and some more downscale places, but they'd give folks a > bad impression. > > Old Jerusulem is near the 24th St BART and is good middle eastern. I > suppose falafel, taboulle etc ok for vegans. > http://www.yelp.com/biz/old-jerusalem-restaurant-san-francisco > > >> No such beast. Believe me, I searched for dinner venues for the other >> SFPUG for several meetings, and there is no restaurant which is quiet, >> affordable, good, and near BART. Quiet is the hardest part. >> >> So, you can have a quiet, affordable restaurant with adequate food which >> is nowhere near Bart, or a quiet restaurant with good food near BART >> which is very expensive, or a quiet restaurant near BART with terrible >> food, or a good, BARTable restaurant which is very noisy. >> >> --Josh Berkus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list >> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:31:07 -0700 > From: Joe Brenner > Subject: Re: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings > To: San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group > Message-ID: <200804192031.m3JKV7uB004072 at kzsu.stanford.edu> > > Josh Berkus wrote: > > >> Quinn Weaver wrote: >> >>> We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest >>> a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able >>> to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at >>> least some vegetarian food. >>> >> No such beast. Believe me, I searched for dinner venues for the other >> SFPUG for several meetings, and there is no restaurant which is quiet, >> affordable, good, and near BART. Quiet is the hardest part. >> >> So, you can have a quiet, affordable restaurant with adequate food which >> is nowhere near Bart, or a quiet restaurant with good food near BART >> which is very expensive, or a quiet restaurant near BART with terrible >> food, or a good, BARTable restaurant which is very noisy. >> > > Well, you're right that this is a tough one, but I would suggest > "Naan-N-Curry" at 336 O'Farrell Street, between Mason and Taylor. > > http://maps.google.com/maps?q=336+OFarrell+St,+San+Francisco,+CA+94102,+USA > > (1) Bartable: > > From Powell St. Station, you walk two blocks north, one and a > half blocks west. > > (2) Not too noisy: > > The ceilings are acoustic office tiling that they've hung some > fabric over: this place can not do the echoy roar that the aging > yupsters are addicted to. They play some music (often really > good music), but not too loud. > > (3) Uncertain numbers of people: > > They've got a double-size dining room with large tables, and > though I don't believe they take reservations, I doubt a crowd > of a dozen or so would be hard to seat, and even if we got two > dozen I think we could deal. > > (4) some vegetarian food > > Well, this is an Indian place. I'm a fan of the spinach/potato > dish there ("Aloo Palak", I think). > > The food here is really good and it's certainly inexpensive (and the > Chai is free). It's a better place to go with at least one person to > split with, so doing a large group should work fine. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:39:56 -0700 > From: "Chris Weyl" > Subject: Re: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings > To: "San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group" > Message-ID: > <7dd7ab490804191439q62cca543p8b1d69b8d504fc36 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > >> Quinn Weaver wrote: >> > We're due for a dinner meeting this coming Tuesday. Can anyone suggest >> > a good venue? Ideally it should be BARTable, not too noisy, and able >> > to accomodate an uncertain number of people. ;) and it should have at >> > least some vegetarian food. >> >> No such beast. Believe me, I searched for dinner venues for the other >> SFPUG for several meetings, and there is no restaurant which is quiet, >> affordable, good, and near BART. Quiet is the hardest part. >> >> So, you can have a quiet, affordable restaurant with adequate food which >> is nowhere near Bart, or a quiet restaurant with good food near BART >> which is very expensive, or a quiet restaurant near BART with terrible >> food, or a good, BARTable restaurant which is very noisy. >> > > What about yum-yum house? It's not huge, but extremely tasty and very > flexible with the use of "fake meat". At 17th/valencia, about 2 > blocks from the 16th St BART station... > > -Chris > > HI, Would I be way off base to suggest ROCKRIDGE Bart in Oakland.? With in three blocks there are about seventy (70) restaurants, one of which would surely fill the requirements...... I suggest: Crepe de Vine ( cheap, noisy, spacious ) Pasta Pomodoro ( cheap, quieter , spacious Zacks Pizzeria ( cheap noisy crowded ) Barneys Hamburgers ( and Salads ) moderate, quiet, roomy ( best choice ) Bettys Chinese Tasty, quiet, * *Olivettos - elegant. * I could scout for more, but these are my regular haunts... Ken Uhl, UC Berkeley * From quinn at fairpath.com Mon Apr 21 12:47:57 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:47:57 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Tuesday dinner In-Reply-To: <480CBBAC.1050705@berkeley.edu> References: <480CBBAC.1050705@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20080421194757.GA6862@mtn.fairpath.com> This seems like a good month to scout out a new location (low-key, last-minute), so let's do Old Jerusalem. 7:00, Tuesday April 21 Old Jerusalem Map: http://tinyurl.com/42ol76 Permalink: http://sf.pm.org/weblog/archives/00000053.html Thanks to everyone for the excellent suggestions and details. I now have them on file for future months. I plan to move our dinner meetings around more, to cater to different tastes and keep things interesting. @Bern: to answer your question, this is a separate meeting BASS. SF.pm is on Tuesday; BASS is on Wednesday. Thanks, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From rjray at blackperl.com Mon Apr 21 13:28:54 2008 From: rjray at blackperl.com (Randy J. Ray) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:28:54 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [JOB] Small team, large parent co., positions in Sunnyvale Message-ID: <480CF906.4020602@blackperl.com> My team is in need of three positions filled at the moment. One of them is full on, full-time Perl development. The other two will require some Perl, though they are not as centric. The descriptions below are not exhaustive-- email me privately if you are interested or if you want to refer someone to me. I'll make sure you (or they) get the full "official" listing(s). 1. Perl developer. Our codebase is Perl+HTML::Mason running on a typical LAMP stack. It is legacy, and crufty in (most) places, but I've dealt with worse. Knowledge of HTML::Mason, general mod_perl development, and MySQL will help greatly. 2. Linux system admin We need one on-site sysadmin to support our team. Our top-of-the-graph parent co. is in NYC, and the division that we're specifically a part of is headquartered in Des Moines, Iowa. We're here in Sunnyvale because for some reason, they couldn't find the talent they needed either already in Des Moines or willing to relocate. But we need someone here who can manage the servers and such for us, so that we don't have to rely on teams that are 2 or 3 time-zones ahead of us. Besides being a good admin, having some experience with MySQL will be helpful. 3. MySQL DBA For this one, I think you can assume the "experience with MySQL will be helpful" part. Our system is backed by MySQL, and while it's working fine for now, we know that a talented MySQL admin can make a huge difference in our overall system performance, as well as helping the developers write better MySQL queries. Our office is in Sunnyvale, less than 10 minutes' walk from the Sunnyvale CalTrain stop at Mathilda Ave. Currently, telecommuting is very limited, simply because the team itself is still fairly young and we have a lot of things to smooth out before we start seeing less of each other. Our manager is top-notch, one of the two best I've worked for since moving to California (the other is probably reading this list, so I'm picking my words carefully :-). I'm enjoying myself more than I have in quite a while... the code itself can be frustrating at times, but the people I'm working with are a good bunch. And we have a lot of potential leeway to guide the project going forward. Our parent company is not a start-up, so you won't be getting rich off of stock options. But neither is there the worry of company stability or security. To put it another way: I wouldn't be writing this if I thought it was a dicey gig. (Some may remember I asked about posting of jobs back in February, then never did post. That was a different company, and I decided I wasn't sure-enough about them to write it up. This time, I am.) Thanks for reading, please check your headers if/when replying so that it goes to me instead of the whole list :-). Randy -- """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Randy J. Ray Silicon Valley Scale Modelers: http://www.svsm.org rjray at blackperl.com randy.j.ray at gmail.com From fluxnet at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 13:47:30 2008 From: fluxnet at gmail.com (Bern) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:47:30 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Tuesday dinner In-Reply-To: <20080421194757.GA6862@mtn.fairpath.com> References: <480CBBAC.1050705@berkeley.edu> <20080421194757.GA6862@mtn.fairpath.com> Message-ID: danke schon On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Quinn Weaver wrote: > This seems like a good month to scout out a new location (low-key, > last-minute), so let's do Old Jerusalem. > > 7:00, Tuesday April 21 > Old Jerusalem > Map: http://tinyurl.com/42ol76 > Permalink: http://sf.pm.org/weblog/archives/00000053.html > > Thanks to everyone for the excellent suggestions and details. I now have > them on file for future months. I plan to move our dinner meetings > around more, to cater to different tastes and keep things interesting. > > @Bern: to answer your question, this is a separate meeting BASS. > SF.pm is on Tuesday; BASS is on Wednesday. > > Thanks, > > -- > Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl > Mongers > http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ > 510-520-5217 > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080421/9dba1b69/attachment.html From pm.org at daveola.com Mon Apr 21 13:49:48 2008 From: pm.org at daveola.com (David Ljung Madison) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:49:48 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: <480BA0E8.2060108@agliodbs.com> References: <200804201924.m3KJOqGL017820@kzsu.stanford.edu> <480BA0E8.2060108@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: John: > Caution here: absolutely every dish at Golden Triangle has fake meat in > it. There's no "just vegetables" items on the menu. The place kind of > freaked me out, really. 1) It's Golden "Era" 2) Yes, it's mostly fake meat, but they *do* have some vegetable dishes (unless you consider tofu fake meat as well) 3) It's super delicious! Oh, Joe - the table thing shouldn't be a problem, I've been there a number of times with 30+ people. Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Ljung Madison http://GetDave.com/ 415 341-5555 ------------ "Preferred over shiny round objects 2-to-1" ------------------ From matt at cloudfactory.org Mon Apr 21 14:12:01 2008 From: matt at cloudfactory.org (Matthew Lanier) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] [JOB] Small team, large parent co., positions in Sunnyvale In-Reply-To: <480CF906.4020602@blackperl.com> References: <480CF906.4020602@blackperl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Randy J. Ray wrote: > smooth out before we start seeing less of each other. Our manager is top-notch, > one of the two best I've worked for since moving to California (the other is > probably reading this list, so I'm picking my words carefully :-). heh ;-) Matthew D. P. K. Strelchun-Lanier matt at cloudfactory.org http://www.bearlywornpacifica.com From quinn at fairpath.com Mon Apr 21 19:21:08 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:21:08 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Tuesday dinner In-Reply-To: <20080421194757.GA6862@mtn.fairpath.com> References: <480CBBAC.1050705@berkeley.edu> <20080421194757.GA6862@mtn.fairpath.com> Message-ID: <20080422022108.GC9077@mtn.fairpath.com> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 12:47:57PM -0700, Quinn Weaver wrote: > This seems like a good month to scout out a new location (low-key, > last-minute), so let's do Old Jerusalem. > > 7:00, Tuesday April 21 That's Tuesday, *April 22*. Sorry about that. Rich, did you say you wrote some program to catch errors like this? -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From rdm at cfcl.com Mon Apr 21 22:00:02 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:00:02 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Tuesday dinner In-Reply-To: <20080422022108.GC9077@mtn.fairpath.com> References: <480CBBAC.1050705@berkeley.edu> <20080421194757.GA6862@mtn.fairpath.com> <20080422022108.GC9077@mtn.fairpath.com> Message-ID: At 19:21 -0700 4/21/08, Quinn Weaver wrote: > Rich, did you say you wrote some program to catch errors > like this? No, but I wrote a PHP script to generate the BASS pages, calculating the proper date for each month automagically. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From dk at intuix.com Mon Apr 21 23:31:18 2008 From: dk at intuix.com (Dmitry Kohmanyuk) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:31:18 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> Message-ID: I am pretty sure this is not going to post to list as my From: address is not the one subscribed - but i just wanted to add one strong vote for Wild Pepper. I have been to BASS meeting there, i like the food, the place is kind of out of the way so there is never a croud, and it is big enough for us. I'd try to repost it - but if Dear Almighty Moderator can force just one time to the list it would be great.. 19.04.2008, ? 17:35, Rich Morin ?????(?): > Wild Pepper is quiet, by and large, because they don't get all > that big a dinner crowd. They have been very accommodating to > BASS, pulling together tables as more folks showed up. Their > food is tasty, inexpensive, and veg-friendly (with care). > > Finally, they are eminently BARTable, being only two blocks > from the 25th & Mission station: > > Wild Pepper > 3601 26th St. (near San Jose Ave.) > San Francisco, California, USA > 415/695-767[89] > > -r > -- > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 > > Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm From fluxnet at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 13:36:04 2008 From: fluxnet at gmail.com (Bern) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:36:04 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> Message-ID: hi do we have a defenitive place yet for todays perl meeting ? 2008/4/21 Dmitry Kohmanyuk : > I am pretty sure this is not going to post to list as my From: > address is not the one subscribed - > but i just wanted to add one strong vote for Wild Pepper. I have been > to BASS meeting there, > i like the food, the place is kind of out of the way so there is > never a croud, and it is big enough for us. > > I'd try to repost it - but if Dear Almighty Moderator can force > just one time to the list it would be great.. > > 19.04.2008, ? 17:35, Rich Morin ?????(?): > > > Wild Pepper is quiet, by and large, because they don't get all > > that big a dinner crowd. They have been very accommodating to > > BASS, pulling together tables as more folks showed up. Their > > food is tasty, inexpensive, and veg-friendly (with care). > > > > Finally, they are eminently BARTable, being only two blocks > > from the 25th & Mission station: > > > > Wild Pepper > > 3601 26th St. (near San Jose Ave.) > > San Francisco, California, USA > > 415/695-767[89] > > > > -r > > -- > > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin > > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com > > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 > > > > Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development > > _______________________________________________ > > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080422/687e414e/attachment.html From quinn at fairpath.com Tue Apr 22 15:44:13 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:44:13 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Dinner meetings In-Reply-To: References: <90D5502E-FD33-47C1-8AB5-FC99933C8785@fairpath.com> Message-ID: <20080422224413.GA14402@mtn.fairpath.com> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 01:36:04PM -0700, Bern wrote: > hi do we have a defenitive place yet for todays perl meeting ? Yes, it's definitely Old Jerusalem. http://sf.pm.org/weblog/archives/00000053.html -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From quinn at fairpath.com Wed Apr 23 13:00:49 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:00:49 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Meeting report Message-ID: <20080423200049.GA20787@mtn.fairpath.com> Thanks to everyone who showed up for the dinner last night. It was a very enjoyable, chill meeting. (Call it the LugRadio decompression ;) ). Old Jerusalem had really yummy food, but they barely accomodated eight people, and they weren't OK with moving tables. Also, it was a little noisy. So I guess it won't work for larger meetings. We'll continue to move venues around for fun/variety and for proximity to different folks. Thanks, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From cweyl at alumni.drew.edu Wed Apr 23 14:25:57 2008 From: cweyl at alumni.drew.edu (Chris Weyl) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:25:57 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Moose crossing :) Message-ID: <7dd7ab490804231425h58fc070at20fd1ec3b38f911f@mail.gmail.com> Hey all -- I may have gushed a bit much to those in earshot at lugradio about Moose... So when I ran across this I couldn't resist posting it here. It's a good little show-off of Moose, that just hints at what it can do :) http://blog.jrock.us/articles/Myth:%20Moose%20is%20an%20unnecessary%20dependency.pod Note MooseX::AttributeHelpers is used, but barely mentioned. It's wicked cool, and has saved me some significant time at $work. -Chris -- Chris Weyl Ex astris, scientia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20080423/067d07a5/attachment.html From josh at agliodbs.com Fri Apr 25 10:08:49 2008 From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:08:49 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Moose crossing :) In-Reply-To: <7dd7ab490804231425h58fc070at20fd1ec3b38f911f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7dd7ab490804231425h58fc070at20fd1ec3b38f911f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200804251008.49569.josh@agliodbs.com> Chris, > I may have gushed a bit much to those in earshot at lugradio about Moose... > So when I ran across this I couldn't resist posting it here. It's a good > little show-off of Moose, that just hints at what it can do :) So, you want to do an SFPerl talk on Moose? Quinn, does SFPerl have schedule openings? -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco From quinn at fairpath.com Fri Apr 25 10:29:25 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:29:25 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Moose crossing :) In-Reply-To: <200804251008.49569.josh@agliodbs.com> References: <7dd7ab490804231425h58fc070at20fd1ec3b38f911f@mail.gmail.com> <200804251008.49569.josh@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: <20080425172925.GB31659@mtn.fairpath.com> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:08:49AM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote: > Chris, > > > I may have gushed a bit much to those in earshot at lugradio about Moose... > > So when I ran across this I couldn't resist posting it here. It's a good > > little show-off of Moose, that just hints at what it can do :) > > So, you want to do an SFPerl talk on Moose? Quinn, does SFPerl have schedule > openings? Yes, so far every month is open except August and December. This may change soon, as I have a specific speaker I want to schedule. So, Chris, if you want to schedule a talk, this would be a good time for you to speak up. :) BTW, sorry I haven't responded yet about Moose. I wanted to write the equivalent in Object::InsideOut (just for comparison), but I don't have time right now. On a high level, it seems that the cool thing about Moose is that it lets you do Ruby-style runtime metaprogramming, as opposed to O::I, which is more static. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From gj262 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 13:31:34 2008 From: gj262 at yahoo.com (Gavin Jefferies) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:31:34 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [JOB] Manufacturing Test Manager at Riverbed In-Reply-To: <65b3137e0804281316w73edc504s634814abf3819061@mail.gmail.com> References: <65b3137e0804281316w73edc504s634814abf3819061@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65b3137e0804281331n1145474cj393357b485bf06f2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Folks, Don't let the title scare you away. This is a very hands on development position utilizing Perl and/or any other open source tools you care to use to get the job done. The team is small (<= 2) and so the manager will also design, implement and maintain the applications and tests used to test and image Riverbeds appliances during manufacturing. There is very little red tape involved to making changes to the code but there is process. Some details: The existing application is written in Perl with an apache/mod_perl/javascript/yui frontend. Some low level tests are in C. There may be a shell script or two... You would: Improve the quality of the shipping product. Own the existing code base. Understand how to manage change to a production application. Appreciate scalability issues. Like Perl but not in a rabid Perl and only Perl kind of way. Be good at managing a small team of junior folks. Pluses: Hardware know how. Manufacturing background. If anyone is interested please reply to me directly at this email address. My role in all this is that I work at Riverbed as a contractor fulfilling pretty much this job. But I'm a contractor in the rabid contracting and only contracting kind of way and so won't take a good full time job when it is staring me in the face. Thanks, Gavin From not.com at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 14:08:00 2008 From: not.com at gmail.com (yary) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:08:00 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [JOB] Manufacturing Test Manager at Riverbed In-Reply-To: <65b3137e0804281331n1145474cj393357b485bf06f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <65b3137e0804281316w73edc504s634814abf3819061@mail.gmail.com> <65b3137e0804281331n1145474cj393357b485bf06f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <75cbfa570804281408v2d40217byc070df1188af9b6a@mail.gmail.com> Hi Gavin, I'm also a contractor, and much of my work over the last 16 years has been in manufacturing and test. Like you, I'm more interested in continuing on a project basis than in full-time employment, but I could be swayed. But before pursuing, can you tell me a detail omitted from your previous post- where is Riverbed? Thanks -y From gj262 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 28 15:43:54 2008 From: gj262 at yahoo.com (Gavin Jefferies) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:43:54 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [JOB] Manufacturing Test Manager at Riverbed In-Reply-To: <75cbfa570804281408v2d40217byc070df1188af9b6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <65b3137e0804281316w73edc504s634814abf3819061@mail.gmail.com> <65b3137e0804281331n1145474cj393357b485bf06f2@mail.gmail.com> <75cbfa570804281408v2d40217byc070df1188af9b6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65b3137e0804281543ucdfdba4sdb84f33cbd5d75a1@mail.gmail.com> Hi Yary, List, Fremont and Howard in downtown SF. Close to BART, etc. They have a Sunnyvale office as well. And the manufacturing sites are global. A little bit of travel can be necessary. Thanks, Gavin On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:08 PM, yary wrote: > Hi Gavin, > > I'm also a contractor, and much of my work over the last 16 years has > been in manufacturing and test. Like you, I'm more interested in > continuing on a project basis than in full-time employment, but I > could be swayed. But before pursuing, can you tell me a detail omitted > from your previous post- where is Riverbed? > > Thanks > > -y > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > From dave at wrightpopcorn.com Mon Apr 28 19:00:34 2008 From: dave at wrightpopcorn.com (Dave Turner) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:00:34 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? Message-ID: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> The reason that I'm asking is that I'm pulling my hair out trying to install Crypt::OpenPGP, through the CPAN shell, in my local space and I'm getting the error that I don't have write permission to the source directory. I've set my path to my local directory physically so I know that's been done. I've asked over on PerlMonks and tried to the best of my ability, since I work under windows, what was suggested to no avail. This was the advice given: Older versions of ExtUtils::AutoInstall had the following snippet of code sub _can_write { my $path = shift; mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; require Config; return 1 if -w $path and -w $Config::Config{sitelib}; print << "."; *** You are not allowed to write to the directory '$path'; the installation may fail due to insufficient permissions. . # ... while newer versions just test for -w $path, i.e. sub _can_write { my $path = shift; mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; return 1 if -w $path; # ... In other words, if $path isn't the problem, it could still be $Config::Config{sitelib} (...something the error message doesn't say). Now I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect Config.pm might not be taking into account that you've told your CPAN shell to install to some other local directory... Anyhow, I would just try installing the current version of ExtUtils::AutoInstall into some local directory (and set PERL5LIB appropriately, or some such), and see if that works then. (If it doesn't - for some other reason - you could also copy the original (5.8.0) ExtUtils/AutoInstall.pm to some local directory, and edit the respective line to no longer test for Config{sitelib}.) I tried to re-install ExtUtils::AutoInstall in to my local directory but I'm getting stung when it's grabbing the associated modules saying that I don't have write permission in the sources directory. Hurricane has been less than helpful in trying to get this resolved. I've got an open ticket that hasn't been responded to in at least two weeks so that's why I'm turning here. Sorry if this is long but I've been fighting this for a while and getting nowhere. Anybody here use them as a host and had problems installing modules locally? If so, how did you solve it?\ Thanks! From woof at danlo.com Tue Apr 29 07:09:10 2008 From: woof at danlo.com (Daniel Lo) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:09:10 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> Message-ID: <29070953.20080429070910@danlo.com> Hello Dave, I was wondering if you modified some of the code to display the source directory it thought was the source directory. Does the code below display a "full" path? or a relative path? I am thinking that it may be showing a relative directory. But not one that you are thinking is the right one. IE You are not allowed to write to the directory ./src when you are in /usr/local/src -daniel Monday, April 28, 2008, 7:00:34 PM, you wrote: > The reason that I'm asking is that I'm pulling my hair out trying to > install Crypt::OpenPGP, through the CPAN shell, in my local space and > I'm getting the error that I don't have write permission to the source > directory. I've set my path to my local directory physically so I know > that's been done. I've asked over on PerlMonks and tried to the best of > my ability, since I work under windows, what was suggested to no avail. > This was the advice given: > Older versions of ExtUtils::AutoInstall > > had the following snippet of code > sub _can_write { > my $path = shift; > mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; > require Config; > return 1 if -w $path and -w $Config::Config{sitelib}; > print << "."; > *** You are not allowed to write to the directory '$path'; > the installation may fail due to insufficient permissions. > . > # ... > while newer versions just test for -w $path, i.e. > sub _can_write { > my $path = shift; > mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; > return 1 if -w $path; > # ... > > In other words, if $path isn't the problem, it could still be > $Config::Config{sitelib} (...something the error message doesn't say). > Now I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect Config.pm might not be taking > into account that you've told your CPAN shell to install to some other > local directory... > Anyhow, I would just try installing the current version of > ExtUtils::AutoInstall > > into some local directory (and set PERL5LIB appropriately, or some > such), and see if that works then. (If it doesn't - for some other > reason - you could also copy the original (5.8.0) > ExtUtils/AutoInstall.pm to some local directory, and edit the respective > line to no longer test for Config{sitelib}.) > I tried to re-install ExtUtils::AutoInstall in to my local directory but > I'm getting stung when it's grabbing the associated modules saying that > I don't have write permission in the sources directory. > Hurricane has been less than helpful in trying to get this resolved. > I've got an open ticket that hasn't been responded to in at least two > weeks so that's why I'm turning here. > Sorry if this is long but I've been fighting this for a while and > getting nowhere. > Anybody here use them as a host and had problems installing modules > locally? If so, how did you solve it?\ > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm -- Best regards, Daniel mailto:woof at danlo.com From extasia at extasia.org Tue Apr 29 08:07:40 2008 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:07:40 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] one install path, multiple repository paths Message-ID: <4c714a9c0804290807g6f5633b8k3e2f332ad5ded10@mail.gmail.com> greetings, i do tools[1] for our release engineering group. i'm looking for ways to improve my deployment packaging code (i.e., suck code out of repository in order to spew onto machines). the following is something about which i'd like to pick your brains. say you have a single install path for which you have multiple repository paths. how do you lay out the files in your repository? do you differentiate the versions[2] by filename? by the tree they're in? do you tokenize a single repository copy and have some program replace the tokens with values specifc to a given environment before deployment? certain files, we like to keep under a "root tree" in the repository. that is, a directory literally called 'root' to indicate that the path of a file under this tree is the install path (sort of...). assume that 'some-service' is a service that starts one of our in-house applications. it's startup script will be installed on all machines as . if we had only a single version of it, we'd keep it in a root tree as: .../root/etc/init.d/some-service however, we have environment-specific versions of it that we keep in the repository as: .../root/etc/init.d/prod/some-service .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-01/some-service .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-02/some-service to further complicate matters, different hosts within an given qa or production environment play different roles (db, mail server, app-specific roles, etc.). in some cases we keep environment- *and* role-specific versions: .../root/etc/init.d/prod/role-01/some-service .../root/etc/init.d/prod/role-02/some-service .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-03/role-01/some-service .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-03/role-02/some-service we refer to the directories prod, qa-env-NN, role-NN, as "qualifier" directories, with the idea that the install path of a file is its repository path under 'root' with the qualifier directory components removed. all of the repository paths in the examples above would be installed to on the appropriate host. i suppose we could just as easily keep all versions in .../root/etc/init.d/ and qualify the file basenames rather than qualify the directory path components. i figure there are a bunch of folks on the list that run into this situation. i'm curious what your approach is. thanks, david [1] a perl island in a sea of java :-( [2] versions, as in, simultaneously existing repository files with different content that share a single install path. not, as in, revisions over time of a given repository file. -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From nheller at silcon.com Tue Apr 29 08:18:01 2008 From: nheller at silcon.com (Neil Heller) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:18:01 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> Message-ID: <000601c8aa0c$372e74a0$a58b5de0$@com> Is the "print" statement below correct? That looks a lot like the C++ "cout" statement. I'm not trying to be a smart guy, it's just that I've never seen that. require Config; return 1 if -w $path and -w $Config::Config{sitelib}; print << "."; *** You are not allowed to write to the directory '$path'; the installation may fail due to insufficient permissions. From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Tue Apr 29 08:55:20 2008 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:55:20 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] one install path, multiple repository paths In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0804290807g6f5633b8k3e2f332ad5ded10@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0804290807g6f5633b8k3e2f332ad5ded10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4815A950-54F9-41FD-BE05-69740C62468D@highwire.stanford.edu> David, My group is going through this exercise right now of how to organize "files that are installed based on their svn path, but can be customized/overridden by another path". The discussion has been along the lines you were talking about: files vs. directories. It looks like we are going to end up with a little bit of both. So, to use your situation as an example, we're going to end up with: .../root/etc/init.d/some-service as the default shared location. Then a script will pull any overridden files from: .../root/custom/etc/init.d/some-service.prod.role-01 etc. Our system is complicated because we're using symlinks in SVN. (I don't know how they work or what they're really called, that's just how it was explained to me.) So we do the custom overrides *inside* SVN. Then deploying is a simple svn checkout. That means we also have: .../build/prod.role-01/etc/init.d/some-service@ (a symlink) which is gathered from the previous two items and also stored in SVN. That would be a symlink to either the root shared file or the custom file, depending on the existence of a custom file. It gets more complicated when we deploy both the shared and custom files and 'include' one in the other using apache & tomcat include directives, but I don't understand that part yet. :-) In any case, when a change is made to a file in the repository, *any* file, we will rerun all the builds to make sure they're all up-to- date. Then we can deploy at will or on an automated schedule. I don't know if this helps, but we've had a number of arguments^Wdiscussions about this and this was the winning proposal. I think it's a challenging problem to solve and no one solution will work for every situation. YMMV. TIMTOWTDI. Good luck! -- Mike On Apr 29, 2008, at 8:07 AM, David Alban wrote: > greetings, > > i do tools[1] for our release engineering group. i'm looking for > ways to improve my deployment packaging code (i.e., suck code out of > repository in order to spew onto machines). the following is > something about which i'd like to pick your brains. > > say you have a single install path for which you have multiple > repository paths. how do you lay out the files in your repository? > do you differentiate the versions[2] by filename? by the tree they're > in? do you tokenize a single repository copy and have some program > replace the tokens with values specifc to a given environment before > deployment? > > certain files, we like to keep under a "root tree" in the repository. > that is, a directory literally called 'root' to indicate that the path > of a file under this tree is the install path (sort of...). > > assume that 'some-service' is a service that starts one of our > in-house applications. it's startup script will be installed on all > machines as . if we had only a single > version of it, we'd keep it in a root tree as: > > .../root/etc/init.d/some-service > > however, we have environment-specific versions of it that we keep in > the repository as: > > .../root/etc/init.d/prod/some-service > .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-01/some-service > .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-02/some-service > > to further complicate matters, different hosts within an given qa or > production environment play different roles (db, mail server, > app-specific roles, etc.). in some cases we keep environment- *and* > role-specific versions: > > .../root/etc/init.d/prod/role-01/some-service > .../root/etc/init.d/prod/role-02/some-service > .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-03/role-01/some-service > .../root/etc/init.d/qa-env-03/role-02/some-service > > we refer to the directories prod, qa-env-NN, role-NN, as "qualifier" > directories, with the idea that the install path of a file is its > repository path under 'root' with the qualifier directory components > removed. all of the repository paths in the examples above would be > installed to on the appropriate host. i > suppose we could just as easily keep all versions in > .../root/etc/init.d/ and qualify the file basenames rather than > qualify the directory path components. > > i figure there are a bunch of folks on the list that run into this > situation. i'm curious what your approach is. > > thanks, > david > > [1] a perl island in a sea of java :-( > [2] versions, as in, simultaneously existing repository files with > different content that share a single install path. not, as in, > revisions over time of a given repository file. > > -- > Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press Phone: 650-725-1974 Stanford University FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From not.com at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 09:20:37 2008 From: not.com at gmail.com (yary) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:20:37 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <75cbfa570804290916q251fdfbfofd5c2a2999b0b62d@mail.gmail.com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> <000601c8aa0c$372e74a0$a58b5de0$@com> <75cbfa570804290916q251fdfbfofd5c2a2999b0b62d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <75cbfa570804290920n4f47ee91q4fc949ad43bede81@mail.gmail.com> I should have said "Take a close look at the perldocs: perldoc perldata" though that web page does tell you the basics From not.com at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 09:16:07 2008 From: not.com at gmail.com (yary) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:16:07 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <000601c8aa0c$372e74a0$a58b5de0$@com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> <000601c8aa0c$372e74a0$a58b5de0$@com> Message-ID: <75cbfa570804290916q251fdfbfofd5c2a2999b0b62d@mail.gmail.com> It's a "here doc" format, often used for multi-line output. Take a close look at the perldocs http://perl.about.com/od/perltutorials/qt/perlheredoc.htm From not.com at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 09:26:17 2008 From: not.com at gmail.com (yary) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:26:17 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <75cbfa570804290920n4f47ee91q4fc949ad43bede81@mail.gmail.com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> <000601c8aa0c$372e74a0$a58b5de0$@com> <75cbfa570804290916q251fdfbfofd5c2a2999b0b62d@mail.gmail.com> <75cbfa570804290920n4f47ee91q4fc949ad43bede81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <75cbfa570804290926i794136d4q282e7a03ce41ceae@mail.gmail.com> Or $ perldoc perlop at the end of the "Quote-Like Operators" section. Sorry for the too-fast fingers, I'll go away now... From dave at wrightpopcorn.com Tue Apr 29 16:12:09 2008 From: dave at wrightpopcorn.com (Dave Turner) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:12:09 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <29070953.20080429070910@danlo.com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> <29070953.20080429070910@danlo.com> Message-ID: <4817AB49.5030504@wrightpopcorn.com> Daniel - thanks for replying! No I haven't modified any code, at least not to my knowledge - I'm not that good. :) The problem I'm having, and why I was hoping that someone here hosted on Hurricane, is that when I use the CPAN shell to install the module in question, I'm getting an error that I don't have write access to the src directory even though when I look down the directory tree there is a src directory in my personal space under my local Perl module directory. To me, and like I said I'm a real novice outside of windows, it looks like it's trying to access root's src directory which I obviously wouldn't have write access to. So there's the rub. Why would it say I don't have access to a directory in my account space when I created it, or at least I believe the CPAN shell did. I know the CPAN shell works because I managed to install some of the dependent modules by hand just to verify that the shell was installed correctly. Any ideas? Daniel Lo wrote: > Hello Dave, > > I was wondering if you modified some of the code to display the source > directory it thought was the source directory. Does the code below display a > "full" path? or a relative path? I am thinking that it may be showing a > relative directory. But not one that you are thinking is the right one. IE > > You are not allowed to write to the directory ./src > > when you are in > /usr/local/src > > -daniel > > > > Monday, April 28, 2008, 7:00:34 PM, you wrote: > > >> The reason that I'm asking is that I'm pulling my hair out trying to >> install Crypt::OpenPGP, through the CPAN shell, in my local space and >> I'm getting the error that I don't have write permission to the source >> directory. I've set my path to my local directory physically so I know >> that's been done. I've asked over on PerlMonks and tried to the best of >> my ability, since I work under windows, what was suggested to no avail. >> > > >> This was the advice given: >> > > >> Older versions of ExtUtils::AutoInstall >> >> had the following snippet of code >> > > >> sub _can_write { >> my $path = shift; >> mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; >> > > >> require Config; >> return 1 if -w $path and -w $Config::Config{sitelib}; >> > > >> print << "."; >> *** You are not allowed to write to the directory '$path'; >> the installation may fail due to insufficient permissions. >> . >> # ... >> > > >> while newer versions just test for -w $path, i.e. >> > > >> sub _can_write { >> my $path = shift; >> mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; >> > > >> return 1 if -w $path; >> > > >> # ... >> >> In other words, if $path isn't the problem, it could still be >> $Config::Config{sitelib} (...something the error message doesn't say). >> > > >> Now I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect Config.pm might not be taking >> into account that you've told your CPAN shell to install to some other >> local directory... >> > > >> Anyhow, I would just try installing the current version of >> ExtUtils::AutoInstall >> >> into some local directory (and set PERL5LIB appropriately, or some >> such), and see if that works then. (If it doesn't - for some other >> reason - you could also copy the original (5.8.0) >> ExtUtils/AutoInstall.pm to some local directory, and edit the respective >> line to no longer test for Config{sitelib}.) >> > > >> I tried to re-install ExtUtils::AutoInstall in to my local directory but >> I'm getting stung when it's grabbing the associated modules saying that >> I don't have write permission in the sources directory. >> > > >> Hurricane has been less than helpful in trying to get this resolved. >> I've got an open ticket that hasn't been responded to in at least two >> weeks so that's why I'm turning here. >> > > >> Sorry if this is long but I've been fighting this for a while and >> getting nowhere. >> > > >> Anybody here use them as a host and had problems installing modules >> locally? If so, how did you solve it?\ >> > > >> Thanks! >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list >> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm >> > > > > From mehryar at mehryar.com Tue Apr 29 14:42:18 2008 From: mehryar at mehryar.com (mehryar) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I was able to install Crypt::OpenPGP on my account with Hurricane Electric. I didn't have to do anything special :-) I suspect the issue may have been related to the CPAN conf file. We can take this offline and compare notes. cheers, -Mehryar On Mon, 28 Apr 2008, Dave Turner wrote: > The reason that I'm asking is that I'm pulling my hair out trying to > install Crypt::OpenPGP, through the CPAN shell, in my local space and > I'm getting the error that I don't have write permission to the source > directory. I've set my path to my local directory physically so I know > that's been done. I've asked over on PerlMonks and tried to the best of > my ability, since I work under windows, what was suggested to no avail. > > This was the advice given: > > Older versions of ExtUtils::AutoInstall > > had the following snippet of code > > sub _can_write { > my $path = shift; > mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; > > require Config; > return 1 if -w $path and -w $Config::Config{sitelib}; > > print << "."; > *** You are not allowed to write to the directory '$path'; > the installation may fail due to insufficient permissions. > . > # ... > > while newer versions just test for -w $path, i.e. > > sub _can_write { > my $path = shift; > mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; > > return 1 if -w $path; > > # ... > > In other words, if $path isn't the problem, it could still be > $Config::Config{sitelib} (...something the error message doesn't say). > > Now I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect Config.pm might not be taking > into account that you've told your CPAN shell to install to some other > local directory... > > Anyhow, I would just try installing the current version of > ExtUtils::AutoInstall > > into some local directory (and set PERL5LIB appropriately, or some > such), and see if that works then. (If it doesn't - for some other > reason - you could also copy the original (5.8.0) > ExtUtils/AutoInstall.pm to some local directory, and edit the respective > line to no longer test for Config{sitelib}.) > > I tried to re-install ExtUtils::AutoInstall in to my local directory but > I'm getting stung when it's grabbing the associated modules saying that > I don't have write permission in the sources directory. > > Hurricane has been less than helpful in trying to get this resolved. > I've got an open ticket that hasn't been responded to in at least two > weeks so that's why I'm turning here. > > Sorry if this is long but I've been fighting this for a while and > getting nowhere. > > Anybody here use them as a host and had problems installing modules > locally? If so, how did you solve it?\ > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > From dave at wrightpopcorn.com Tue Apr 29 16:17:20 2008 From: dave at wrightpopcorn.com (Dave Turner) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:17:20 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <000601c8aa0c$372e74a0$a58b5de0$@com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> <000601c8aa0c$372e74a0$a58b5de0$@com> Message-ID: <4817AC80.7050209@wrightpopcorn.com> That's a snippet of the source from the older version of ExtUtils::AutoInstall from what I understand. Almut over at Perl Monks suggested I check the source of that module to see if that was perhaps my problem. Unfortunately, the source of the module was the newer code so that didn't solve it. Neil Heller wrote: > Is the "print" statement below correct? > That looks a lot like the C++ "cout" statement. > I'm not trying to be a smart guy, it's just that I've never seen that. > > > require Config; > return 1 if -w $path and -w $Config::Config{sitelib}; > > print << "."; > *** You are not allowed to write to the directory '$path'; > the installation may fail due to insufficient permissions. > > > > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > > > > From woof at danlo.com Wed Apr 30 00:40:10 2008 From: woof at danlo.com (Daniel Lo) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:40:10 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Does anybody on this list host with Hurricane Electric? In-Reply-To: <4817AB49.5030504@wrightpopcorn.com> References: <48168142.8070601@wrightpopcorn.com> <29070953.20080429070910@danlo.com> <4817AB49.5030504@wrightpopcorn.com> Message-ID: <1618206316.20080430004010@danlo.com> Hello Dave, It looks like mehryar was able to install the package on H.E. What I'm thinking is that some script "quietly" moved you into /usr/local/src (or your system equvilant) and then said: Help! I can't write to ./src, thus fooling you. Sometimes, the paths get pretty tricky ../../package/../../../ and so on... It may also be that the CPAN shell invoked itself to install another package (or the package you were installing did so) and didn't pass along the "right" parameters. -daniel Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 4:12:09 PM, you wrote: > Daniel - thanks for replying! > No I haven't modified any code, at least not to my knowledge - I'm not > that good. :) > The problem I'm having, and why I was hoping that someone here hosted on > Hurricane, is that when I use the CPAN shell to install the module in > question, I'm getting an error that I don't have write access to the src > directory even though when I look down the directory tree there is a src > directory in my personal space under my local Perl module directory. To > me, and like I said I'm a real novice outside of windows, it looks like > it's trying to access root's src directory which I obviously wouldn't > have write access to. > So there's the rub. Why would it say I don't have access to a directory > in my account space when I created it, or at least I believe the CPAN > shell did. I know the CPAN shell works because I managed to install some > of the dependent modules by hand just to verify that the shell was > installed correctly. > Any ideas? > Daniel Lo wrote: >> Hello Dave, >> >> I was wondering if you modified some of the code to display the source >> directory it thought was the source directory. Does the code below display a >> "full" path? or a relative path? I am thinking that it may be showing a >> relative directory. But not one that you are thinking is the right one. IE >> >> You are not allowed to write to the directory ./src >> >> when you are in >> /usr/local/src >> >> -daniel >> >> >> >> Monday, April 28, 2008, 7:00:34 PM, you wrote: >> >> >>> The reason that I'm asking is that I'm pulling my hair out trying to >>> install Crypt::OpenPGP, through the CPAN shell, in my local space and >>> I'm getting the error that I don't have write permission to the source >>> directory. I've set my path to my local directory physically so I know >>> that's been done. I've asked over on PerlMonks and tried to the best of >>> my ability, since I work under windows, what was suggested to no avail. >>> >> >> >>> This was the advice given: >>> >> >> >>> Older versions of ExtUtils::AutoInstall >>> >>> had the following snippet of code >>> >> >> >>> sub _can_write { >>> my $path = shift; >>> mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; >>> >> >> >>> require Config; >>> return 1 if -w $path and -w $Config::Config{sitelib}; >>> >> >> >>> print << "."; >>> *** You are not allowed to write to the directory '$path'; >>> the installation may fail due to insufficient permissions. >>> . >>> # ... >>> >> >> >>> while newer versions just test for -w $path, i.e. >>> >> >> >>> sub _can_write { >>> my $path = shift; >>> mkdir ($path, 0755) unless -e $path; >>> >> >> >>> return 1 if -w $path; >>> >> >> >>> # ... >>> >>> In other words, if $path isn't the problem, it could still be >>> $Config::Config{sitelib} (...something the error message doesn't say). >>> >> >> >>> Now I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect Config.pm might not be taking >>> into account that you've told your CPAN shell to install to some other >>> local directory... >>> >> >> >>> Anyhow, I would just try installing the current version of >>> ExtUtils::AutoInstall >>> >>> into some local directory (and set PERL5LIB appropriately, or some >>> such), and see if that works then. (If it doesn't - for some other >>> reason - you could also copy the original (5.8.0) >>> ExtUtils/AutoInstall.pm to some local directory, and edit the respective >>> line to no longer test for Config{sitelib}.) >>> >> >> >>> I tried to re-install ExtUtils::AutoInstall in to my local directory but >>> I'm getting stung when it's grabbing the associated modules saying that >>> I don't have write permission in the sources directory. >>> >> >> >>> Hurricane has been less than helpful in trying to get this resolved. >>> I've got an open ticket that hasn't been responded to in at least two >>> weeks so that's why I'm turning here. >>> >> >> >>> Sorry if this is long but I've been fighting this for a while and >>> getting nowhere. >>> >> >> >>> Anybody here use them as a host and had problems installing modules >>> locally? If so, how did you solve it?\ >>> >> >> >>> Thanks! >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list >>> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org >>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm >>> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm -- Best regards, Daniel mailto:woof at danlo.com From quinn at fairpath.com Wed Apr 30 11:35:06 2008 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:35:06 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] one install path, multiple repository paths In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0804290807g6f5633b8k3e2f332ad5ded10@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0804290807g6f5633b8k3e2f332ad5ded10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080430183506.GA9441@mtn.fairpath.com> Hi, David et al., My take on this is that you should step back from the problem, try to make some simplifying assumptions, and take a different tack. For instance, could you abstract out all (or most of) the differences in config files into environment variables? For /etc/rc.d/* scripts, could you make a single file that behaves differently based on the setting of two variable called MY_ENVIRONMENT and MY_ROLE? If you deploy the same config file to every machine, then it becomes harder to mess things up. You don't have to keep track of what goes where. You can edit a single file to see how things work in every environment (or change how they work). You have fewer files and directories cluttering your repository. This is just one way to go; TMTOWTDI. But if you're concerned that things are too complicated already, then simplifying might work well. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217