From extasia at extasia.org Tue Sep 4 11:42:14 2007 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:42:14 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] why 'eq' and not '==' in perlsec man page? Message-ID: <4c714a9c0709041142j36f6b1cbv908832b27217c6b9@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, Was looking at some code on the perlsec man page: use English '-no_match_vars'; die "Can't fork: $!" unless defined($pid = open(KID, "-|")); if ($pid) { # parent while () { # do something } close KID; } else { my @temp = ($EUID, $EGID); my $orig_uid = $UID; my $orig_gid = $GID; $EUID = $UID; $EGID = $GID; # Drop privileges $UID = $orig_uid; $GID = $orig_gid; # Make sure privs are really gone ($EUID, $EGID) = @temp; die "Can't drop privileges" unless $UID == $EUID && $GID eq $EGID; $ENV{PATH} = "/bin:/usr/bin"; # Minimal PATH. # Consider sanitizing the environment even more. exec 'myprog', 'arg1', 'arg2' or die "can't exec myprog: $!"; } In the statement: die "Can't drop privileges" unless $UID == $EUID && $GID eq $EGID; I was wondering why they used '==' and then 'eq'. In this particular case, we can always expect the group ID's to be non-leading-zero integers. Do you think the 'eq' was a typo in the man page? Thanks, David -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From woof at danlo.com Tue Sep 4 11:53:51 2007 From: woof at danlo.com (Daniel Lo) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:53:51 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] why 'eq' and not '==' in perlsec man page? In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0709041142j36f6b1cbv908832b27217c6b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0709041142j36f6b1cbv908832b27217c6b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1677553905.20070904115351@danlo.com> Hello David, On my system $EGID will return all the groups I belong to, thus it will be a string of digits. (some are even repeats) "1001 1002 1003 1004" etc.. -daniel Tuesday, September 4, 2007, 11:42:14 AM, you wrote: > Greetings, > Was looking at some code on the perlsec man page: > use English '-no_match_vars'; > die "Can't fork: $!" unless defined($pid = open(KID, "-|")); > if ($pid) { # parent > while () { > # do something > } > close KID; > } else { > my @temp = ($EUID, $EGID); > my $orig_uid = $UID; > my $orig_gid = $GID; > $EUID = $UID; > $EGID = $GID; > # Drop privileges > $UID = $orig_uid; > $GID = $orig_gid; > # Make sure privs are really gone > ($EUID, $EGID) = @temp; > die "Can't drop privileges" > unless $UID == $EUID && $GID eq $EGID; > $ENV{PATH} = "/bin:/usr/bin"; # Minimal PATH. > # Consider sanitizing the environment even more. > exec 'myprog', 'arg1', 'arg2' > or die "can't exec myprog: $!"; > } > In the statement: > die "Can't drop privileges" > unless $UID == $EUID && $GID eq $EGID; > I was wondering why they used '==' and then 'eq'. In this particular > case, we can always expect the group ID's to be non-leading-zero > integers. Do you think the 'eq' was a typo in the man page? > Thanks, > David -- Best regards, Daniel mailto:woof at danlo.com From merlyn at stonehenge.com Tue Sep 4 11:55:01 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:55:01 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] why 'eq' and not '==' in perlsec man page? In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0709041142j36f6b1cbv908832b27217c6b9@mail.gmail.com> (David Alban's message of "Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:42:14 -0700") References: <4c714a9c0709041142j36f6b1cbv908832b27217c6b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <86ir6qw9a2.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "David" == David Alban writes: David> In the statement: David> die "Can't drop privileges" David> unless $UID == $EUID && $GID eq $EGID; David> I was wondering why they used '==' and then 'eq'. In this particular David> case, we can always expect the group ID's to be non-leading-zero David> integers. Do you think the 'eq' was a typo in the man page? No. "perldoc perlvar" and look at $( and $). They are strings, not just numbers. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From extasia at extasia.org Tue Sep 4 12:27:03 2007 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:27:03 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] why 'eq' and not '==' in perlsec man page? In-Reply-To: <86ir6qw9a2.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <4c714a9c0709041142j36f6b1cbv908832b27217c6b9@mail.gmail.com> <86ir6qw9a2.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <4c714a9c0709041227l78303e53n53c026805a169582@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, Daniel Lo wrote: > On my system $EGID will return all the groups I belong to, > thus it will be a string of digits. (some are even repeats) On 9/4/07, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > "perldoc perlvar" and look at $( and $). They are strings, not just > numbers. Ah, yes. Makes sense. Gracias! -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From cba at groundworkopensource.com Thu Sep 6 11:47:30 2007 From: cba at groundworkopensource.com (Chris Barton Anderson) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:47:30 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] BayLISA Monitoring SIG, Weds Sept 12, 7PM Message-ID: <1189104450.31192.11.camel@peterX20> (Hi: You're invited to the BayLISA Monitoring SIG, Weds Sept 12, 7PM. See the meeting announcement pasted below: feel free to post it and/or forward it along to anyone else who might be interested. Many thanks, and hope to see you there!) ================================================= Sept. 2007 BayLISA Monitoring SIG: Data Integration Traditionally, acquiring the tools needed to create customized solutions that featured data persistence, data stream cross-referencing, cross-platform deployment, distributed architecture, and data aggregation from across multiple network domains required extensive use of proprietary software. (Consider the example of trying to merge Nagios, Ganlgia, SNMP, etc. data so that you can display it simultaneously.) Roger Ruttimann, project lead for Foundation (http://gwfoundation.sourceforge.net/) will talk about how Open Source components have matured to the point where building enterprise-class data aggregation and mining tools is relatively simple. What: BayLISA Monitoring SIG X: Data Integration Who: Anyone interested in IT monitoring issues and tools (newbies particularly welcome!) When: Wednesday, Sept 12 2007, 7PM Where: GroundWork Open Source, 139 Townsend St., San Francisco How: 139 Townsend St. is very near AT&T Ballpark. It is two blocks from the CalTrain Depot. Take the MUNI N, T or J trolley to 2nd and King (ballpark stop) or take the 30 or 45 bus (among others) crosstown. The Giants are playing a home game that evening (vs. Arizona, 7:15 start) so things will be hectic on the streets around GroundWork: street parking will be nonexistent, paid parking will be astronomically expensive, and public transportation will be slow and crowded: allow extra time for travel. Cost: Free!! Abundant pizza, an extensive assortment of fine soft drinks, and lots of snacks will be provided by GroundWork. We'll open up the doors at 6:30 or so and start the formal part of the meeting promptly at 7PM. RSVP (not necessary, but helpful): Peter Mui, pmui at groundworkopensource.com, 415 992 4573, www.groundworkopensource.com From david at fetter.org Thu Sep 6 13:37:12 2007 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:37:12 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Big Ball of Mud! Tuesday, September 11 7:30 Message-ID: <20070906203712.GA1440@fetter.org> Folks, You've all dealt with it: a code base so crufty and thrown-together that you're left wondering what to do. Fred Moyer will help. To get free food and drink, RSVP. Email is OK, but going through the link below is more convenient for your host and sponsors. http://postgresql.meetup.com/1/calendar/6143101/ To get a free, spiffy Postgres T-shirt, get to Casa Donde an hour early (around 6:30) and be ready to stuff some folders. Thanks to MyNewPlace.com for sponsoring this. Cheers, David. -- David Fetter http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Skype: davidfetter Remember to vote! Consider donating to PostgreSQL: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate From extasia at extasia.org Fri Sep 7 11:23:33 2007 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:23:33 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] IPC::Open3 Message-ID: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, I'm taking open3 for a test drive. I thought that stderr would go to the err handle. But it seems it doesn't. 1 #!/usr/bin/perl 2 3 use strict; 4 use warnings; 5 6 use IPC::Open3; 7 8 my $pid = open3( my $wfh, my $rfh, my $efh, qw( ls -ld foo bar ) ); 9 10 while ( <$rfh> ) { 11 print "rfh: $_"; 12 } # while 13 14 while ( <$efh> ) { 15 print "efh: $_"; 16 } # while foo exists. bar doesn't. I'd expect the read file handle to contain stdout, i.e., the listing for foo. I'd expect the error file handle to contain stderr, i.e., the message that bar doesn't exist. But I get both in the read handle: Use of uninitialized value in at junk.perl line 14. readline() on unopened filehandle at junk.perl line 14. rfh: ls: cannot access bar: No such file or directory rfh: -rw-r--r-- 1 dalban Users 0 Sep 7 11:11 foo What am I missing? Thanks, David -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From sphink at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:24:45 2007 From: sphink at gmail.com (Steve Fink) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:24:45 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] IPC::Open3 In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/07, David Alban wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm taking open3 for a test drive. I thought that stderr would go to > the err handle. But it seems it doesn't. > > 1 #!/usr/bin/perl > 2 > 3 use strict; > 4 use warnings; > 5 > 6 use IPC::Open3; > 7 > 8 my $pid = open3( my $wfh, my $rfh, my $efh, qw( ls -ld foo bar ) ); > 9 > 10 while ( <$rfh> ) { > 11 print "rfh: $_"; > 12 } # while > 13 > 14 while ( <$efh> ) { > 15 print "efh: $_"; > 16 } # while > > foo exists. bar doesn't. I'd expect the read file handle to contain > stdout, i.e., the listing for foo. I'd expect the error file handle > to contain stderr, i.e., the message that bar doesn't exist. But I > get both in the read handle: > > Use of uninitialized value in at junk.perl line 14. > readline() on unopened filehandle at junk.perl line 14. > rfh: ls: cannot access bar: No such file or directory > rfh: -rw-r--r-- 1 dalban Users 0 Sep 7 11:11 foo > > What am I missing? You were foolish enough to believe the documentation rather than the documentation. Oh, and that the API would make some sort of sense. What were you thinking? perldoc IPC::Run3 gives as an example: my($wtr, $rdr, $err); $pid = open3($wtr, $rdr, $err, 'some cmd and args', 'optarg', ...); which doesn't work. Well, it works according to the documentation: If ERRFH is false, or the same file descriptor as RDRFH, then STDOUT and STDERR of the child are on the same filehandle. That's what is happening in your example. Your 'my $err' evaluates to false, so STDOUT and STDERR both go to $rdr (which is automatically created, as expected). The example strongly implies that it should work as [both of us] expected, but it doesn't. Instead, it gives you the useless behavior observed. I'm guessing something got added on later as an afterthought; probably the filehandle autovivification? It's a relatively new feature in the core open(). I don't see any way to fix it, either. I thought that it should be able to distinguish based on whether that 3rd parameter is lvaluable, but it seems like anything undefined is lvaluable. Or something. You can manually make it work: use Symbol; open3(my $wfh, my $rfh, (my $efh = Symbol::gensym), qw(...)); Isn't that beautiful? From extasia at extasia.org Fri Sep 7 13:56:47 2007 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:56:47 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] IPC::Open3 In-Reply-To: <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c714a9c0709071356w707dba21x74e7f8c7b89d832e@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/07, Steve Fink wrote: > You can manually make it work: > > use Symbol; > open3(my $wfh, my $rfh, (my $efh = Symbol::gensym), qw(...)); > > Isn't that beautiful? Thanks, Steve. Amusingly enough, then, this works: my $efh = 1; my $pid = open3( my $wfh, my $rfh, $efh, qw( ls -ld foo bar ) ); we then get: rfh: -rw-r--r-- 1 dalban Users 0 Sep 7 11:11 foo efh: ls: cannot access bar: No such file or directory -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From extasia at extasia.org Fri Sep 7 14:04:15 2007 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:04:15 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] IPC::Open3 In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0709071356w707dba21x74e7f8c7b89d832e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> <4c714a9c0709071356w707dba21x74e7f8c7b89d832e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c714a9c0709071404q3ff263e2m6c171e8d31958a0@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/07, David Alban wrote: > Amusingly enough, then, this works: > > my $efh = 1; > my $pid = open3( my $wfh, my $rfh, $efh, qw( ls -ld foo bar ) ); As does: my $efh = 'mumble'; Heh. -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From sphink at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:24:45 2007 From: sphink at gmail.com (Steve Fink) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:24:45 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] IPC::Open3 In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/07, David Alban wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm taking open3 for a test drive. I thought that stderr would go to > the err handle. But it seems it doesn't. > > 1 #!/usr/bin/perl > 2 > 3 use strict; > 4 use warnings; > 5 > 6 use IPC::Open3; > 7 > 8 my $pid = open3( my $wfh, my $rfh, my $efh, qw( ls -ld foo bar ) ); > 9 > 10 while ( <$rfh> ) { > 11 print "rfh: $_"; > 12 } # while > 13 > 14 while ( <$efh> ) { > 15 print "efh: $_"; > 16 } # while > > foo exists. bar doesn't. I'd expect the read file handle to contain > stdout, i.e., the listing for foo. I'd expect the error file handle > to contain stderr, i.e., the message that bar doesn't exist. But I > get both in the read handle: > > Use of uninitialized value in at junk.perl line 14. > readline() on unopened filehandle at junk.perl line 14. > rfh: ls: cannot access bar: No such file or directory > rfh: -rw-r--r-- 1 dalban Users 0 Sep 7 11:11 foo > > What am I missing? You were foolish enough to believe the documentation rather than the documentation. Oh, and that the API would make some sort of sense. What were you thinking? perldoc IPC::Run3 gives as an example: my($wtr, $rdr, $err); $pid = open3($wtr, $rdr, $err, 'some cmd and args', 'optarg', ...); which doesn't work. Well, it works according to the documentation: If ERRFH is false, or the same file descriptor as RDRFH, then STDOUT and STDERR of the child are on the same filehandle. That's what is happening in your example. Your 'my $err' evaluates to false, so STDOUT and STDERR both go to $rdr (which is automatically created, as expected). The example strongly implies that it should work as [both of us] expected, but it doesn't. Instead, it gives you the useless behavior observed. I'm guessing something got added on later as an afterthought; probably the filehandle autovivification? It's a relatively new feature in the core open(). I don't see any way to fix it, either. I thought that it should be able to distinguish based on whether that 3rd parameter is lvaluable, but it seems like anything undefined is lvaluable. Or something. You can manually make it work: use Symbol; open3(my $wfh, my $rfh, (my $efh = Symbol::gensym), qw(...)); Isn't that beautiful? From bh1 at light42.com Sun Sep 9 20:10:54 2007 From: bh1 at light42.com (Brian Hamlin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:10:54 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] thought you might get a kick out of this In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0709071404q3ff263e2m6c171e8d31958a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> <4c714a9c0709071356w707dba21x74e7f8c7b89d832e@mail.gmail.com> <4c714a9c0709071404q3ff263e2m6c171e8d31958a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7182B021-5F4B-11DC-A0F4-000A277A733C@light42.com> spotted just now... http://ewasteinsights.info/aMiscFiles/GoogleNewsGaff.png == Brian Hamlin ISDE5 Steering Committee NextNow Collaboratory Planetwork.net (415) 717-4462 From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sun Sep 9 20:19:09 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 20:19:09 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] thought you might get a kick out of this In-Reply-To: <7182B021-5F4B-11DC-A0F4-000A277A733C@light42.com> (Brian Hamlin's message of "Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:10:54 -0700") References: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> <4c714a9c0709071356w707dba21x74e7f8c7b89d832e@mail.gmail.com> <4c714a9c0709071404q3ff263e2m6c171e8d31958a0@mail.gmail.com> <7182B021-5F4B-11DC-A0F4-000A277A733C@light42.com> Message-ID: <86bqcbky1e.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Hamlin writes: Brian> spotted just now... Brian> http://ewasteinsights.info/aMiscFiles/GoogleNewsGaff.png They need to use that module that dies if it ever sees HASH(0x....) printed to STDOUT. :) I tried to find it just now, but couldn't. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From david at fetter.org Sun Sep 9 20:49:43 2007 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:49:43 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Reminder: Big Ball of Mud! Tuesday, September 11 7:30 Message-ID: <20070910034943.GE6661@fetter.org> Folks, You've all dealt with it: a code base so crufty and thrown-together that you're left wondering what to do. Fred Moyer will help. To get free food and drink, RSVP. Email is OK, but going through the link below is more convenient for your host and sponsors. http://postgresql.meetup.com/1/calendar/6143101/ To get a free, spiffy Postgres T-shirt, get to Casa Donde an hour early (around 6:30) and be ready to stuff some folders. Thanks to MyNewPlace.com for sponsoring this. Cheers, David. -- David Fetter http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Skype: davidfetter Remember to vote! Consider donating to PostgreSQL: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate From pm.org at daveola.com Mon Sep 10 13:54:36 2007 From: pm.org at daveola.com (David Ljung Madison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:54:36 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] thought you might get a kick out of this In-Reply-To: <7182B021-5F4B-11DC-A0F4-000A277A733C@light42.com> References: <7182B021-5F4B-11DC-A0F4-000A277A733C@light42.com> Message-ID: > spotted just now... > > http://ewasteinsights.info/aMiscFiles/GoogleNewsGaff.png That's not a google mistake: http://www.google.com/search?&q=forbes%20%22i%20was%20against%20the%20surge If it hasn't been updated, you'll see that the title of the page is "HASH(0x8d2cd08)" courtesy of Forbes, not Google. Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Ljung Madison http://GetDave.com/ 415.341.5555 --- I am totally into Perl now. I love it. It rules with an iron fist. -- From quinn at fairpath.com Mon Sep 10 19:10:17 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:10:17 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Sept. 25: Mike Schilli on log4perl Message-ID: <20070911021017.GA53257@fu.funkspiel.org> log4perl author Mike Schilli will speak on his creation. We'll again provide Little Star pizza. RSVP to help us get a head-count: Jeff.Thalhammer at barclaysglobal.com. ********* WE ARE MEETING at 7:00 AGAIN. ********* l4p has been my logging package of choice for several years now. It's nifty: everything is configuration file-driven, so you can decide which of your components' messages to see, where to send your logs (syslog, file, database...), and what info to include in each message (hostname, file and line, stacktrace...) And it has a couple of advanced features, "mapped diagnostic context" and "nested diagnostic context," that have come in quite handy. Come and check it out. RSVP: Jeff.Thalhammer at barclaysglobal.com Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 Time: 7:00 p.m. Place: Barclays Global Investors, [6]45 Fremont St., San Francisco (between Market and Fremont). Transit details: Parking: There are several outdoor lots with cheap evening rates, all of them south of Market and within a few blocks of 45 Fremont. Look on Harrison and Fremont first. After work hours, these lots usually have plenty of spaces. From BART: Get off at the Embarcadero station. Take the Beale St. exit. Heading away from the water on Market, come to Fremont. Turn left on Fremont; 45 Fremont is the big building halfway down the block. From Caltrain: (Don't take Caltrain if you can avoid it. Trains run back at 10:00 p.m. and 11:59 p.m. only!) From the station, take the N Judah to the Embarcadero station, then follow the directions from BART. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From extasia at extasia.org Tue Sep 11 11:12:31 2007 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:12:31 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] IPC::Open3 In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0709071404q3ff263e2m6c171e8d31958a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c714a9c0709071123q744a0872q8b43156039fbdf27@mail.gmail.com> <7d7f2e8c0709071324v2768cde6m7031e0e8f4f92cd5@mail.gmail.com> <4c714a9c0709071356w707dba21x74e7f8c7b89d832e@mail.gmail.com> <4c714a9c0709071404q3ff263e2m6c171e8d31958a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c714a9c0709111112u29ea163bw6cd76c8a91bc34a2@mail.gmail.com> Actually, this works, too, and is what I'll do when I want stderr separated from stdout.[1] Unless someone has a better idea. open my $efh, '>&', \*STDERR or die "$pgm: can't dup stderr: $!\n"; my $pid = open3( my $wfh, my $rfh, $efh, qw( ls -ld foo bar ) ); [1] Do folks here who use open3 just intermingle them? On 9/7/07, David Alban wrote: > On 9/7/07, David Alban wrote: > > Amusingly enough, then, this works: > > > > my $efh = 1; > > my $pid = open3( my $wfh, my $rfh, $efh, qw( ls -ld foo bar ) ); > > As does: > > my $efh = 'mumble'; -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. From hlee at paybl.com Tue Sep 11 17:52:45 2007 From: hlee at paybl.com (Henry Alexander Lee) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:52:45 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script Message-ID: Hello, My name is Henry Lee and I'm a student at Stanford. I'm trying to gather a list of names for an event. I'm wondering if it is possible to write a perl script that would repeatedly send requests to a site, input keywords in its search form, gather the results, and output them to a text/excel file. If this is possible, would someone be willing to help me out with it? Or better yet, if someone could write the script for me, I would pay whatever is reasonable and/or offer some equity in the startup company I am a part of. Thank you. -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20070911/00a2c17f/attachment.html From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Sep 12 08:42:19 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:42:19 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: (Henry Alexander Lee's message of "Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:52:45 -0700") References: Message-ID: <86642fc2lg.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Henry" == Henry Alexander Lee writes: Henry> My name is Henry Lee and I'm a student at Stanford. I'm trying to Henry> gather a list of names for an event. I'm wondering if it is possible to Henry> write a perl script that would repeatedly send requests to a site, Henry> input keywords in its search form, gather the results, and output them Henry> to a text/excel file. If this is possible, would someone be willing to Henry> help me out with it? Or better yet, if someone could write the script Henry> for me, I would pay whatever is reasonable and/or offer some equity in Henry> the startup company I am a part of. Thank you. And this is different from what a spammer does, exactly how? Why not just write the owner of the site, and ask for the list of names, and if they won't give that to you legitimately, then that's not a source of names? That'd be far less evil. Seriously, sir, where are your ethics? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From josh at agliodbs.com Wed Sep 12 11:25:05 2007 From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:25:05 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [job] Truviso looking for Application Programmers Message-ID: <200709121125.05813.josh@agliodbs.com> All, Please see the 2nd two jobs, which some people here might have the skills for. Contact Neil Conway if interested. --Josh ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [pgsql-jobs] PostgreSQL Software Engineers (SF Bay Area) Date: Tuesday 11 September 2007 23:14 From: Neil Conway To: pgsql-jobs at postgresql.org At Truviso, we're building a PostgreSQL-based data stream processing engine: that is, a modified version of PostgreSQL that can execute SQL queries over both historical data (tables) and live data streams. We're looking for great hackers to help us build our stream processing engine and the middle-tier and frontend applications that are built upon it. We're a venture-funded startup located in Foster City, CA, in the San Francisco Bay Area. We can offer you: * the chance to play a major role in the development of leading-edge technology, to tackle hard problems, and to work with colleagues who are intelligent, motivated, and passionate about writing great software * an exciting startup environment * highly-competitive compensation, including stock options and health benefits Relocation to the Bay Area would be preferred (we'd be happy to provide relocation assistance), but is not strictly necessary for the right candidate. Specific job descriptions follow. For more information or to submit your resume, please contact me via email (nconway at truviso.com). Job Title: Senior Software Engineer, Database Engine As a software engineer in the database engine team, you will be involved in the design and implementation of all aspects of the Truviso stream processing kernel. Your responsibilities will include designing, coding, debugging, and performance analysis as well as dealing with customer deployments. A deep understanding of the internals of software systems (e.g., database, messaging and operating systems) as well as the ability to quickly find your feet in a codebase of significant size is essential. Specific experience in the internals of a database system (especially in "lower-half" areas such as transaction management, fault-tolerance and recovery) is highly desired. In addition, experience in the internals of the PostgreSQL open source database system is also extremely valuable. Summary of Qualifications: * BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent (Ph.D. a plus) * Several years of enterprise software development experience (either on Unix/Linux, or on Windows) * Strong knowledge of systems programming (database/messaging systems preferred) * Experience in leading projects and dealing with customer situations * Excellent C programming skills along with the ability to quickly learn other languages/technologies * Excellent written and verbal communication skills * An appetite for solving hard problems and for rigorous analysis Job Title: Senior Software Engineer, Applications Back-End As a software engineer in the applications back-end team, you will be working on new exciting applications that exploit the Truviso stream processing engine. Your responsibilities will include designing, developing and deploying these applications. An ideal candidate will have several years of experience with object-oriented programming in a multi-threaded environment. A clear understanding of relational databases and J2EE is critical. Specific experience in developing financial applications is a plus. Summary of Qualifications: * BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent * Several years of experience in developing server-side data-centric applications * Strong foundation in Java and J2EE * Good knowledge of SQL and relational database principles * Experience with rich Internet application frameworks such as DHTML or Flex a plus * Excellent communication and interpersonal skills * A proven track record in understanding and responding to customer needs and requirements Job Title: Senior Software Engineer, Applications Front-End As a software engineer in the applications front-end team, you will be working on new exciting applications that exploit the Truviso stream processing engine. Your responsibilities will include designing and implementing the user-interface for the Truviso stream processing engine, including the visualization framework for realtime streaming data. An ideal candidate will have several years of experience in developing rich user interfaces. Prior experience with Adobe Flex is extremely valuable. Experience with Java and SQL is a plus. Summary of Qualifications: * BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent * Several years of experience in developing rich Internet applications * Strong foundation in JavaScript, XML, DHTML, CSS * Solid understanding of usability and layout of user interfaces * Excellent communication and interpersonal skills * A proven track record in understanding and responding to customer needs and requirements ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate ------------------------------------------------------- -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco From josh at agliodbs.com Wed Sep 12 11:27:38 2007 From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:27:38 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [job] Perl Guru in SF Message-ID: <200709121127.38776.josh@agliodbs.com> See forward. Contact Monique, not me. Mind you, this job description looks suspiciously familiar. Fred? ----------------- Subject: [pgsql-jobs] Perl Guru - San Francisco, CA Date: Thursday 09 August 2007 14:49 From: Monique Vaughan To: pgsql-jobs at postgresql.org _______________________________________ Senior Software Engineer 565226 San Francisco, CA Deliver high quality, maintainable code, that exceeds expectations Develop automation and unit tests to enable rapid development Integrate and work with a high velocity agile development team Skillset priorities 1) Perl expertise - CPAN submissions - Guru level (e.g. knows the language and the libraries) 2) Expertise with Database systems 3) Expertise with messaging, and fighting spam 4) 10+ years experience in rapid development environment Works with minimal supervision on analysis tasks, and with little or no supervision on development tasks. Designs, develops, maintains and implements software modules in a given product. Participates in the definition of the lifecycle of software process and in code reviews. With little or no supervision, completes analysis of partially defined tasks, completes major portions of complex functional specs/design documents or entire documents and completes development and/or maintenance assignments. Collaborates within and across groups in writing functional and design specifications, development schedules and user interface specifications. Identifies and suggests solutions to problems of significant scope. Generates engineering test plans from functional specification documents. Uses professional concepts and company policies and procedures to solve a wide range of difficult problems in imaginative and practical ways. Broad application of principles, theories, and concepts in applicable discipline, plus working knowledge of other related fields. Works on problems of diverse scope where analysis of data requires evaluation of identifiable factors. Exercises judgment within generally defined practices and policies in selecting methods and techniques for obtaining solutions. Bachelor's Degree or equivalent experience 4-6 years - Should have in-depth knowledge of required programming languages. -- *Monique Vaughan* Associate Recruiter Pierpoint www.pierpoint.com ----------------------------------------------------- USA: (650) 963-1818 Germany: +49 211 58009924, ext. 2319 eFax: (415) 480-1013 SkypeMe: moniquev2 Email: monique at pierpoint.com ----------------------------------------------------- Pierpoint -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco From biztos at mac.com Wed Sep 12 11:42:00 2007 From: biztos at mac.com (Kevin Frost) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:42:00 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [job] Perl Guru in SF In-Reply-To: <200709121127.38776.josh@agliodbs.com> References: <200709121127.38776.josh@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: <4D46620B-33E7-4628-921C-EB2EF260C4C1@mac.com> Looks like us (Symantec/Brightmail anti-spam), and we're still looking. Fred left some big-ass shoes to fill. -- frosty (via iPhone) On Sep 12, 2007, at 11:27 AM, Josh Berkus wrote: > See forward. Contact Monique, not me. Mind you, this job > description looks > suspiciously familiar. Fred? > > ----------------- > > Subject: [pgsql-jobs] Perl Guru - San Francisco, CA > Date: Thursday 09 August 2007 14:49 > From: Monique Vaughan > To: pgsql-jobs at postgresql.org > _______________________________________ > Senior Software Engineer 565226 > San Francisco, CA > > Deliver high quality, maintainable code, that exceeds expectations > Develop automation and unit tests to enable rapid development > Integrate and work with a high velocity agile development team > > Skillset priorities > > 1) Perl expertise > - CPAN submissions > - Guru level (e.g. knows the language and the libraries) > > 2) Expertise with Database systems > > 3) Expertise with messaging, and fighting spam > > 4) 10+ years experience in rapid development environment > > Works with minimal supervision on analysis tasks, and with little or > no > supervision on development tasks. Designs, develops, maintains and > implements software modules in a given product. Participates in the > definition of the lifecycle of software process and in code reviews. > With little or no supervision, completes analysis of partially defined > tasks, completes major portions of complex functional specs/design > documents or entire documents and completes development and/or > maintenance assignments. Collaborates within and across groups in > writing functional and design specifications, development schedules > and > user interface specifications. Identifies and suggests solutions to > problems of significant scope. Generates engineering test plans from > functional specification documents. Uses professional concepts and > company policies and procedures to solve a wide range of difficult > problems in imaginative and practical ways. Broad application of > principles, theories, and concepts in applicable discipline, plus > working knowledge of other related fields. Works on problems of > diverse > scope where analysis of data requires evaluation of identifiable > factors. Exercises judgment within generally defined practices and > policies in selecting methods and techniques for obtaining solutions. > Bachelor's Degree or equivalent experience 4-6 years - Should have > in-depth knowledge of required programming languages. > > > -- > *Monique Vaughan* > Associate Recruiter > Pierpoint > www.pierpoint.com > ----------------------------------------------------- > USA: (650) 963-1818 > Germany: +49 211 58009924, ext. 2319 > eFax: (415) 480-1013 > SkypeMe: moniquev2 > Email: monique at pierpoint.com > ----------------------------------------------------- > Pierpoint > > > > -- > Josh Berkus > PostgreSQL @ Sun > San Francisco > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm From danlyke at flutterby.com Wed Sep 12 09:09:17 2007 From: danlyke at flutterby.com (Dan Lyke) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:09:17 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:52:45 -0700 "Henry Alexander Lee" wrote: > My name is Henry Lee and I'm a student at Stanford. I'm trying to > gather a list of names for an event. I'm wondering if it is possible > to write a perl script that would repeatedly send requests to a site, > input keywords in its search form, gather the results, and output > them to a text/excel file. I'll be a little more charitable about your end goals than Randal, this sounds like a basic data mining problem and I can think of all sorts of times when extracting information from web sites is useful and reasonable. WWW::Mechanize is your friend. A note: Offering equity for problems this simple probably doesn't excite any competent coders about the potentials of your startup. Dan From wsanders at cruzio.com Wed Sep 12 15:12:49 2007 From: wsanders at cruzio.com (Walt Sanders) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:12:49 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> References: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> Message-ID: <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> Sounds like potential spam mining to me. Walt. Dan Lyke wrote: > On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:52:45 -0700 > "Henry Alexander Lee" wrote: > >> My name is Henry Lee and I'm a student at Stanford. I'm trying to >> gather a list of names for an event. I'm wondering if it is possible >> to write a perl script that would repeatedly send requests to a site, >> input keywords in its search form, gather the results, and output >> them to a text/excel file. >> > > I'll be a little more charitable about your end goals than Randal, this > sounds like a basic data mining problem and I can think of all sorts > of times when extracting information from web sites is useful and > reasonable. WWW::Mechanize is your friend. > > A note: Offering equity for problems this simple probably doesn't > excite any competent coders about the potentials of your startup. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20070912/4600e2fa/attachment.html From hlee at paybl.com Wed Sep 12 15:16:50 2007 From: hlee at paybl.com (Henry Alexander Lee) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:16:50 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> References: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the concerns and information. This will not in any way be used for solicitation or spamming. This is only for cross referencing and research purposes. -Henry On 9/12/07, Walt Sanders wrote: > > Sounds like potential spam mining to me. Walt. > > > > Dan Lyke wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:52:45 -0700 > "Henry Alexander Lee" wrote: > > My name is Henry Lee and I'm a student at Stanford. I'm trying to > gather a list of names for an event. I'm wondering if it is possible > to write a perl script that would repeatedly send requests to a site, > input keywords in its search form, gather the results, and output > them to a text/excel file. > > I'll be a little more charitable about your end goals than Randal, this > sounds like a basic data mining problem and I can think of all sorts > of times when extracting information from web sites is useful and > reasonable. WWW::Mechanize is your friend. > > A note: Offering equity for problems this simple probably doesn't > excite any competent coders about the potentials of your startup. > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.orghttp://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20070912/b0b4cbb6/attachment.html From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Sep 12 16:01:47 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:01:47 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: (Henry Alexander Lee's message of "Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:16:50 -0700") References: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> Message-ID: <86k5qva3ok.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Henry" == Henry Alexander Lee writes: Henry> Thanks for the concerns and information. This will not in any way be Henry> used for solicitation or spamming. This is only for cross referencing Henry> and research purposes. -Henry If it's that legitimate, get the info directly from the website owner then. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From danlyke at flutterby.com Wed Sep 12 16:15:12 2007 From: danlyke at flutterby.com (Dan Lyke) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: <86k5qva3ok.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> <86k5qva3ok.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20070912161512.24c7456d@danlyke-laptop> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:01:47 -0700 merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote: > If it's that legitimate, get the info directly from the website owner > then. I can't speak to Henry's application, however... Although I run screaming from "give us your name and password" applications, Blogger is the first one that comes to mind, I could easily see a useful service that would be extracting this information from so-called "social networking" sites like MySpace and FaceBook and transferring it to other places. And neither of those companies is going to make extracting the user's data easy. There's a legit application that involves scraping names. Similarly, I've been in business environments where a group had legitimate access to data, but for whatever reason a computer systems vendor or the IS/IT department didn't want to assist in interfacing. Back before the web I built a dummy printer for a hospital maintenance department that wanted to take work orders coming out of main hospital computer services group and put them in their own database, because there were queries and tracking situations that the main system didn't handle, and I set up something that sat between a Paradox application and the main computer system at a large manufacturing firm that looked to the IT department like a VT-100 terminal, because they refused to let another group at the database any other way. There are lots of good reasons to write scrapers and bots, not all of them are nefarious. Dan From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Sep 12 16:33:49 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:33:49 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: <20070912161512.24c7456d@danlyke-laptop> (Dan Lyke's message of "Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:15:12 -0700") References: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> <86k5qva3ok.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070912161512.24c7456d@danlyke-laptop> Message-ID: <86fy1ja276.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Lyke writes: Dan> Although I run screaming from "give us your name and password" Dan> applications, Blogger is the first one that comes to mind, I could Dan> easily see a useful service that would be extracting this information Dan> from so-called "social networking" sites like MySpace and FaceBook and Dan> transferring it to other places. And neither of those companies is Dan> going to make extracting the user's data easy. There's a legit Dan> application that involves scraping names. And violates Blogger's terms of service which includes Google's Terms of Service: 5.3 You agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services by any means other than through the interface that is provided by Google, unless you have been specifically allowed to do so in a separate agreement with Google. You specifically agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services through any automated means (including use of scripts or web crawlers) and shall ensure that you comply with the instructions set out in any robots.txt file present on the Services. As I'm saying, just because you can *technically* run a scraper, doesn't mean that you can legally, or morally, or ethically. Dan> There are lots of good reasons to write scrapers and bots, not all of Dan> them are nefarious. But some of them are wrong. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From quinn at fairpath.com Wed Sep 12 20:11:19 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:11:19 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: <20070912161512.24c7456d@danlyke-laptop> References: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> <86k5qva3ok.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070912161512.24c7456d@danlyke-laptop> Message-ID: <20070913031119.GA10265@fu.funkspiel.org> On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 04:15:12PM -0700, Dan Lyke wrote: > [...] > I could > easily see a useful service that would be extracting this information > from so-called "social networking" sites like MySpace and FaceBook and > transferring it to other places. > And neither of those companies is > going to make extracting the user's data easy. There's a legit > application that involves scraping names. Brad Fitzpatrick is working on something like this. http://bradfitz.com/social-graph-problem/ -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From quinn at fairpath.com Wed Sep 12 20:24:53 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:24:53 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: <86fy1ja276.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <20070912090917.3fd4666e@danlyke-laptop> <46E86461.6040403@cruzio.com> <86k5qva3ok.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070912161512.24c7456d@danlyke-laptop> <86fy1ja276.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20070913032453.GB10265@fu.funkspiel.org> On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 04:33:49PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Lyke writes: > > Dan> Although I run screaming from "give us your name and password" > Dan> applications, Blogger is the first one that comes to mind, I could > Dan> easily see a useful service that would be extracting this information > Dan> from so-called "social networking" sites like MySpace and FaceBook and > Dan> transferring it to other places. And neither of those companies is > Dan> going to make extracting the user's data easy. There's a legit > Dan> application that involves scraping names. > > And violates Blogger's terms of service which includes Google's Terms > of Service: > > 5.3 You agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services by > any means other than through the interface that is provided by Google, > unless you have been specifically allowed to do so in a separate agreement > with Google. You specifically agree not to access (or attempt to access) > any of the Services through any automated means (including use of scripts > or web crawlers) and shall ensure that you comply with the instructions > set out in any robots.txt file present on the Services. > > As I'm saying, just because you can *technically* run a scraper, doesn't mean > that you can legally, or morally, or ethically. > > Dan> There are lots of good reasons to write scrapers and bots, not all of > Dan> them are nefarious. > > But some of them are wrong. It's a pain, isn't it? I surely don't want Blogger (or anyone) to own my social graph. But I'm not into breaking the law either (in the form of my contract with Blogger). I guess the solution is to use a different service. On the other hand, using a different service is cold comfort if all your friends are on the first service... which brings us back to the original problem. :) -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From info at spaceshare.com Tue Sep 11 18:50:17 2007 From: info at spaceshare.com (Stephen Cataldo) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:50:17 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] website searching/filtering script In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E745D9.4050701@spaceshare.com> Henry, I did something similar using LWP::Simple a while ago -- found it easy to use that module from instructions without previous experience (I don't remember if I submitted forms, or just URLs, with that script.) ~Stephen -- Stephen Cataldo SpaceShare.com 6420 Colby St. Oakland, CA 94618 (510) 520-6175 Replacing Cars with Community: Interested in learning more about SpaceShare? Join our monthly newsletter list: www.spaceshare.com/email_newsletter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20070911/b258cf7f/attachment.html From rdm at cfcl.com Thu Sep 13 17:38:06 2007 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:38:06 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds Message-ID: Freebase is a semantic wiki of sorts, with Creative Commons content and a REST/JSON API. I find it very intriguing, so some of youall might, as well. Anyway, they're having a meeting next Wednesday... http://www.freebase.com/view/ http://www.freebase.com/view/tutorial/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaweb_Technologies -r At 17:29 -0700 9/13/07, Rich Morin wrote: > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:31:46 -0700 > To: Free Developers > Subject: [Developers] Freebase User Group meeting: next Weds > > Anticipating a mad crush of Freebase enthusiasts for the user group > meeting next week, we've posted an Upcoming page to collect RSVPs: > > http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/265163/?ps=5 > > In addition to pizza and beer, we're going to have a couple of > cool previews and demos--including one from Will Moffat, a Fb > developer who's in town from Belgium. Will always has great > ideas and tips for using Freebase, and he likes to hear how other > people are using it, too. But he's not here often. So take > advantage of this visit, and come exchange the Freebase goodness! -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From quinn at fairpath.com Thu Sep 13 20:41:36 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:41:36 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 05:38:06PM -0700, Rich Morin wrote: > [...] > and a REST/JSON API. Smart! JSON is YAML, except for comments. So it maps straight onto data structures, unambiguously (unlike XML). I wish all REST apps would use JSON. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From rdm at cfcl.com Thu Sep 13 22:14:17 2007 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:14:17 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds In-Reply-To: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: At 20:41 -0700 9/13/07, Quinn Weaver wrote: > Smart! JSON is YAML, except for comments. So it maps straight onto > data structures, unambiguously (unlike XML). I wish all REST apps > would use JSON. Well, it's more like a subset of YAML, but it's the subset that I tend to use, so that's OK with me. Mapping XML onto lists and hashes is a bit of a nudge, even when you can assume that all items are wrapped in tag pairs. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From quinn at fairpath.com Fri Sep 14 18:05:31 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:05:31 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] [marsee@oreilly.com: UG News--Women in Tech Series from www.oreillynet.com] Message-ID: <20070915010531.GA31055@fu.funkspiel.org> I don't forward the usual O'Reilly book plugs, but this seemed noteworthy. O'Reilly is shining a spotlight on women in the tech industry/ies, in the form of a special series of articles. Perhaps this kind of attention will help even out our weird gender ratio. ----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon ----- From: Marsee Henon To: qw at sf.pm.org Subject: UG News--Women in Tech Series from www.oreillynet.com Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:48:01 -0700 Hi Please share the following press announcement with your members if you think they will be interested. --Marsee Women of Tech: Hear Us Roar, A Special Series from www.oreillynet.com The Mighty Voices of Sisterhood in Tech Sebastopol, CA--There's no doubt that women coders, developers, designers, and programmers are a powerful force in the modern tech industry, despite their smaller numbers compared to men. At the same time many of the major impacts and innovations of women at every level of the development and evolution of technology--from the first female coders to today's Web 2.0 pioneers--aren't all that well known. But starting now, O'Reilly Media aims to celebrate and give voice to the real-world experiences and concerns of these female trailblazers by publishing a new online series, "Women in Tech." The brainchild of Tatiana Apandi, an associate editor at O'Reilly, the series features articles solicited from technology's female side--and all focused on what it's like to carve out a career in technology. The timely new series reveals the challenges, rewards, and, sometimes, frustrations of being a woman in an industry still dominated by men. "Each day, we'll present a different woman's story that I believe will open readers' eyes to her unique perspective," explains Apandi. "We have contributions from conference organizers, authors, programmers, developers, and more--women who have pioneered prosperous careers in technology." "As the series progresses, I hope readers find that this myriad of female perspectives shows how valuable it is to hear different points of view," says Tatiana. "Whether readers think there are issues on which we need to work or that there are no issues at all, one underlying truth is that we need to support each other as individuals and help one another with our separate goals." With clarity, honesty, and wit, this collection reveals what it's like to be in the minority of the male-dominated geek culture. Here are just a few of the voices in this upcoming series: - Anna Martelli, Ravenscroft, Pythonista - Audrey Eschright, independent programmer/designer/publisher - CJ Rayhill, SVP of Product Management and Technology for Safari Books Online - Dawn Foster, Director of Developer Relations at Jive Software - Dru Lavigne, Chair of the BSD Certification Group Inc - Gabrielle Roth, member of the Portland Perl Mongers - Jeni Tennison, independent consultant and author - Jill Dyche, partner and co-founder of Baseline Consulting - Juliet Kemp, Systems Administrator for the Astrophysics group at Imperial College - Julia Lerman, Board member of the Vermont Software Developer Alliance, runs the Vermont.NET User Group - Kaliya Hamlin, unconference Shesgeeky.org organizer - Kirsten Jones, webmaster for The Perl Foundation - Lauren Wood, Chaired for the W3C DOM Working Group - Leslie Hawthorn, works for Open Source Programs Office at Google - Selena Deckelmann, leads PDXPUG, a PostgreSQL Users Group - Shelley Powers, software developer/architect, photographer, and author The "Women in Tech," series starts Sept 4. Find out what they have to share and join the discussion here: http://www.oreillynet.com/womenintech/ About O'Reilly O'Reilly Media spreads the knowledge of innovators through its books, online services, magazines, and conferences. Since 1978, O'Reilly Media has been a chronicler and catalyst of cutting-edge development, homing in on the technology trends that really matter and spurring their adoption by amplifying "faint signals" from the alpha geeks who are creating the future. An active participant in the technology community, the company has a long history of advocacy, meme-making, and evangelism. # # # O'Reilly is a registered trademark of O'Reilly Media, Inc. All other trademarks are property of their respective owners. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From quinn at fairpath.com Fri Sep 14 18:22:51 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:22:51 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds In-Reply-To: References: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <20070915012251.GB31055@fu.funkspiel.org> On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 10:14:17PM -0700, Rich Morin wrote: > At 20:41 -0700 9/13/07, Quinn Weaver wrote: > > Smart! JSON is YAML, except for comments. So it maps straight onto > > data structures, unambiguously (unlike XML). I wish all REST apps > > would use JSON. > > Well, it's more like a subset of YAML, but it's the subset that I tend > to use, so that's OK with me. Right. I was speaking imprecisely. :( I agree about "the subset that I use." I've used YAML's references, and I like its alternate syntax better than the JSON-like syntax. But that's about it; I've never used its other features. "Keep it simple, stupid." I guess ordered hashes could be useful. > Mapping XML onto lists and hashes is a > bit of a nudge, even when you can assume that all items are wrapped in > tag pairs. Yep. That was the main point I was trying to make. If Web 2.0 causes "web services" to start using JSON instead of XML, that's a big win from my standpoint. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Sep 14 23:35:16 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:35:16 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds In-Reply-To: <20070915012251.GB31055@fu.funkspiel.org> (Quinn Weaver's message of "Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:22:51 -0700") References: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> <20070915012251.GB31055@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <86sl5g1lnf.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Quinn" == Quinn Weaver writes: >> Well, it's more like a subset of YAML, but it's the subset that I tend >> to use, so that's OK with me. I don't know who started the "JSON is YAML" meme, but it's clearly gotten far too much legs to be the right thing. *IF* you write your JSON in the right way, a YAML parser can parse it. Good luck getting a YAML writer to *write* JSON. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From quinn at fairpath.com Sat Sep 15 00:13:27 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:13:27 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds In-Reply-To: <86sl5g1lnf.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> <20070915012251.GB31055@fu.funkspiel.org> <86sl5g1lnf.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20070915071327.GB31913@fu.funkspiel.org> On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 11:35:16PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Quinn" == Quinn Weaver writes: > > >> Well, it's more like a subset of YAML, but it's the subset that I tend > >> to use, so that's OK with me. > > I don't know who started the "JSON is YAML" meme, but it's clearly gotten > far too much legs to be the right thing. My guess is it came from here: http://redhanded.hobix.com/inspect/yamlIsJson.html > *IF* you write your JSON in the right way, a YAML parser can parse it. Yes, though "the right way" just means no /* C-style comments */ . Modulo those, JSON is just a subset of YAML, right? > Good luck getting a YAML writer to *write* JSON. I'm not sure I understand. By "YAML writer", do you mean a human who is manually producing JSON, but who is more used to YAML? I agree, I wouldn't expect to get someone like that to get it right. But I think of JSON more as a way for machines to dump data structures. You have some structure on the server side, and you want to serialize it for the client, so you do my $output = data2json(); # probably produces no /* comments! */ And $output is what the client sees. Now, "the client" can be either A) your own web pages' client-side AJAX[1], or B) some third-party code that is using your site as a web service. Both can use the same API. If B relies on a YAML parser (say, because the language has no good JSON-only parser), it will still work. That's what I think is cool. Does that make sense? Or are we talking at cross purposes? Anyway, thanks for contributing to our list. I'm glad to have you here. :) -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sat Sep 15 00:17:55 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:17:55 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds In-Reply-To: <20070915071327.GB31913@fu.funkspiel.org> (Quinn Weaver's message of "Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:13:27 -0700") References: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> <20070915012251.GB31055@fu.funkspiel.org> <86sl5g1lnf.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070915071327.GB31913@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <86k5qs1joc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Quinn" == Quinn Weaver writes: >> Good luck getting a YAML writer to *write* JSON. Quinn> I'm not sure I understand. By "YAML writer", do you mean a human who Quinn> is manually producing JSON, but who is more used to YAML? I agree, I Quinn> wouldn't expect to get someone like that to get it right. No, I mean some code that writes YAML. That's not JSON. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From quinn at fairpath.com Sat Sep 15 00:30:51 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:30:51 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Slightly OT: Freebase User Group meeting next Weds In-Reply-To: <86k5qs1joc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <20070914034136.GA21463@fu.funkspiel.org> <20070915012251.GB31055@fu.funkspiel.org> <86sl5g1lnf.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20070915071327.GB31913@fu.funkspiel.org> <86k5qs1joc.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20070915073051.GA32103@fu.funkspiel.org> On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 12:17:55AM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Quinn" == Quinn Weaver writes: > > >> Good luck getting a YAML writer to *write* JSON. > > Quinn> I'm not sure I understand. By "YAML writer", do you mean a human who > Quinn> is manually producing JSON, but who is more used to YAML? I agree, I > Quinn> wouldn't expect to get someone like that to get it right. > > No, I mean some code that writes YAML. That's not JSON. Yes, that would suck. It's a one-way thing: if you produce JSON-sans-comments, then whoever is consuming your output can use a JSON or a YAML parser. But it doesn't work the other way: you can't produce YAML and expect a JSON parser to handle it. So I see what you're saying. The problem is the corrupted meme that says "JSON is equivalent to YAML," when the truth is that JSON is just a _subset_ of YAML. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From quinn at fairpath.com Wed Sep 19 17:36:26 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:36:26 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP Message-ID: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> Hi, everyone, I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. Cheers, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From quinn at fairpath.com Wed Sep 19 17:38:57 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:38:57 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <20070920003857.GA86055@fu.funkspiel.org> On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 05:36:26PM -0700, Quinn Weaver wrote: > Hi, everyone, > > I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to > speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to > give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. What are lightning talks? See http://tinyurl.com/3cnlpa . -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From miyagawa at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 17:50:09 2007 From: miyagawa at gmail.com (Tatsuhiko Miyagawa) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:50:09 +0900 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <20070920003857.GA86055@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> <20070920003857.GA86055@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <693254b90709191750r50854acdjbccd7e24fb204ff5@mail.gmail.com> I could give a talk about my Web::Scraper module. http://search.cpan.org/dist/Web-Scraper/ On 9/20/07, Quinn Weaver wrote: > On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 05:36:26PM -0700, Quinn Weaver wrote: > > Hi, everyone, > > > > I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to > > speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to > > give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. > > What are lightning talks? See http://tinyurl.com/3cnlpa . > -- Tatsuhiko Miyagawa From josh at agliodbs.com Wed Sep 19 17:49:35 2007 From: josh at agliodbs.com (Josh Berkus) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:49:35 -0400 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <46F1C39F.6010208@agliodbs.com> Quinn, > I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to > speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to > give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. You can borrow my 5-minute hourglass. I don't know if I have anything for a topic, though ... I've not written any perl since I got to Sun! --Josh From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Wed Sep 19 19:39:07 2007 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:39:07 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <46F1C39F.6010208@agliodbs.com> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> <46F1C39F.6010208@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: <200709200239.l8K2d7kw004692@kzsu.stanford.edu> Josh Berkus wrote: > > I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to > > speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to > > give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. > > You can borrow my 5-minute hourglass. And I have a 3-foot diameter gong, if you'd like to try a different format. From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Wed Sep 19 20:01:08 2007 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:01:08 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <200709200301.l8K318V3005018@kzsu.stanford.edu> Quinn Weaver wrote: > I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to > speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to > give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. Worst comes to worst I could do a talk about my latest CPAN modules App::Relate and List::Filter, or perhaps Module::List::Pluggable and/or File::Locate::Harder. The trouble with that idea is that it would probably turn into a "But what the was I *thinking*?!" talk, and I'd rather focus on something more useful. I know, how about "New features in perl 5.10". That would mean working through this list (probably with emphasis on the new regular expression features): http://search.cpan.org/~rgarcia/perl-5.9.5/pod/perl595delta.pod From fred at redhotpenguin.com Wed Sep 19 20:04:03 2007 From: fred at redhotpenguin.com (Fred Moyer) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:04:03 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> Message-ID: <46F1E323.6030506@redhotpenguin.com> Quinn Weaver wrote: > Hi, everyone, > > I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to > speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to > give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. I can give a talk on either lightning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning), or condense one of my Perl talks down to a short format. From biztos at mac.com Wed Sep 19 21:11:28 2007 From: biztos at mac.com (Kevin Frost) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:11:28 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <46F1E323.6030506@redhotpenguin.com> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> <46F1E323.6030506@redhotpenguin.com> Message-ID: <1BCE7C16-73B8-4F43-AD97-150E67266B8A@mac.com> Ball lighting Fredsky! Look it up. -- frosty (via iPhone) On Sep 19, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Fred Moyer wrote: > Quinn Weaver wrote: >> Hi, everyone, >> >> I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to >> speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants >> to >> give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. > > I can give a talk on either lightning > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning), or condense one of my Perl > talks down to a short format. > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm From quinn at fairpath.com Thu Sep 20 12:48:41 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:48:41 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <46F1C39F.6010208@agliodbs.com> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> <46F1C39F.6010208@agliodbs.com> Message-ID: <20070920194841.GB95567@fu.funkspiel.org> On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 08:49:35PM -0400, Josh Berkus wrote: > Quinn, > > > I'm looking to get together a round of lightning talks. I plan to > > speak on Object::InsideOut, my new favorite module. Who else wants to > > give a talk? We need at least six talks to justify a meeting. > > You can borrow my 5-minute hourglass. Thanks, I may take you up on that. > I don't know if I have anything > for a topic, though ... I've not written any perl since I got to Sun! Meta stuff is fair game too. Examples: - What I learned from trying "test first" - Time management tricks and traps You get the idea. Come to think of it, I might speak on one or both of those topics. (Yes, one person must do multiple talks, within reason :) .) -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From quinn at fairpath.com Thu Sep 20 12:59:44 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:59:44 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Lightning talk CFP In-Reply-To: <200709200301.l8K318V3005018@kzsu.stanford.edu> References: <20070920003626.GA85985@fu.funkspiel.org> <200709200301.l8K318V3005018@kzsu.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20070920195944.GC95567@fu.funkspiel.org> On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 08:01:08PM -0700, Joe Brenner wrote: > [...] > The trouble with that idea is that it would probably turn into > a "But what the was I *thinking*?!" talk, and I'd rather focus > on something more useful. Well, again, meta stuff is fine. Maybe "hacking temptations to avoid" could make a good topic? > I know, how about "New features in perl 5.10". That would be great. PS: I like the gong idea, but only if it's for signalling the end of each five-minute segment. No one "gets gonged" at SF.pm. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gong_Show#Show_format -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From vlb at cfcl.com Thu Sep 20 18:18:16 2007 From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:18:16 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? Message-ID: I discovered Twitter a little over two months ago when I read Clive Thompson's article in Wired. http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/magazine/15-07/st_thompson But I didn't really start playing with it until this past week, after reading a couple of articles by Michael (Rands in Repose) Lopp and the follow-up comments. (If you don't know of Rands, I'll wait while you take a side trip to http://randsinrepose.com. I highly recommend it.) So, now that I'm having fun with Twitter, I thought I'd ask: Do you Twitter? If you do, please drop me a link or click to "Follow" me. If you don't (and you're wondering "What IS she talking about?") Read my weblog entry. http://www.cfcl.com/vlb/weblog/archives/001330.html Follow me on Twitter... (p.s. I'm having an interesting time reading the threads this question has spawned on a few other lists; I wonder if this one will be on par... :-) -- - Vicki ZZZ zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog '---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/ From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Sep 20 18:51:44 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:51:44 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: (Vicki Brown's message of "Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:18:16 -0700") References: Message-ID: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Vicki" == Vicki Brown writes: Vicki> I discovered Twitter a little over two months ago when I read Clive Vicki> Thompson's article in Wired. Vicki> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/magazine/15-07/st_thompson I started twittering, but switched to Jaiku six months ago. Far better model. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Thu Sep 20 20:39:35 2007 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:39:35 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> I don't Twitter. But, then again, I don't blog, either. Blogging just doesn't work for me. I like to keep my personal life relatively private and my work life is entirely owned by my employer. Thus, blogging for me would end up being the same vapid "here's what I had for lunch today" stuff that clogs the internet. There's no point in adding to that. However, I think Twitter (and similar services) has a chance to be more useful to people like me. You can use it when you want to be found ("I'm working at Mission City for the next 2 hours. Stop by!") or when you have short, public news ("Massive accident on 280 S at Saratoga.") but not have to expose either your actual life details or work concepts or designs owned by your employer. The longer form of blogging encourages sharing more information; the shorter form of Twittering encourages timely information. On the other hand, none of my friends Twitter, so there's the new network problem: you need a threshold of people on the service before it becomes useful. That said, once I get an iPhone, I plan to look into these services more closely. ;-) -- Mike On Sep 20, 2007, at 6:51 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Vicki" == Vicki Brown writes: > > Vicki> I discovered Twitter a little over two months ago when I > read Clive > Vicki> Thompson's article in Wired. > Vicki> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/magazine/15-07/st_thompson > > I started twittering, but switched to Jaiku six months ago. Far > better model. > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 > 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl > training! > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press Phone: 650-725-1974 Stanford University FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From vlb at cfcl.com Fri Sep 21 08:00:22 2007 From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:00:22 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: At 18:51 -0700 09/20/2007, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > I started twittering, but switched to Jaiku six months ago. Far better >model. How so? Tell, tell! -- - Vicki ZZZ zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog '---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/ From vlb at cfcl.com Fri Sep 21 07:59:56 2007 From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:59:56 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 20:39 -0700 09/20/2007, Michael Friedman wrote: > However, I think Twitter (and similar services) has a chance to be > more useful to people like me. > > On the other hand, none of my friends Twitter, so there's the new > network problem: you need a threshold of people on the service before > it becomes useful. > > That said, once I get an iPhone, I plan to look into these services > more closely. ;-) There's a Twitter "app" for the iPhone. and you may be interested in these: http://lifehacker.com/software/reminders/get-and-set-reminders-via-twitter-281724.php http://lifehacker.com/software/note-taking/twitternotes-organizes-your-notes-300809.php -- - Vicki ZZZ zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog '---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/ From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Sep 21 08:11:29 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:11:29 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: (Vicki Brown's message of "Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:00:22 -0700") References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Vicki" == Vicki Brown writes: Vicki> At 18:51 -0700 09/20/2007, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >> I started twittering, but switched to Jaiku six months ago. Far better >> model. Vicki> How so? Tell, tell! Jaiku is more like micro-"blogging". In Twitter, everyone has a place they can say something, but only to the people who are already subscribed. So, you don't really get "threads". You get people shouting in some sort of sequence, and unless you're subscribed to to everyone who is participating in a conversation, it's all rather disconnected. For example, if A says something that B hears, and B comments on that which C hears, then C didn't hear A's message, and makes a random comment, and I'm subscribed to both A and C, it'll look really strange. No logical threads. In Jaiku, each comment has a thread. If someone I'm following makes an original comment *or* replies to a comment, I can see the whole thread above, and if I comment on that post, it becomes part of the *thread*, which can be reviewed up and down. So, each presence item is its own microblog post, with a series of interchange about that post (with the occasional threadjack but that's pretty rare). Also, Jaiku is an agggregator. I'm currently feeding 15 other RSS feeds where I might be posting something (my Flickr, my use.perl, geekcruises podcast, etc) into Jaiku, so people who follow me can know when I've posted something somewhere else. And they can either go back to the original to make comments, or just make a jaiku comment about it, starting another thread. Jaiku is clearly the better model. I can't stand twitter now... the conversations aren't there. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Sep 21 15:17:38 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:17:38 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: (Vicki Brown's message of "Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:59:56 -0700") References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <861wcrll31.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Vicki" == Vicki Brown writes: Vicki> There's a Twitter "app" for the iPhone. The Jaiku web app is nicely iPhone compatible too. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From vlb at cfcl.com Sat Sep 22 09:51:00 2007 From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:51:00 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 20:39 -0700 09/20/2007, Michael Friedman wrote: > I don't Twitter. But, then again, I don't blog, either. > > Blogging just doesn't work for me. I like to keep my personal life > relatively private and my work life is entirely owned by my employer. > Thus, blogging for me would end up being the same vapid "here's what > I had for lunch today" stuff that clogs the internet. There's no > point in adding to that. I would never recommend you write a weblog if you don't want to but I have to argue with your reasoning. Now, if you had said "I don't like to write", I'd buy that but I hope there's more going on in your life than what you had for lunch today. There must be some things you think about that are neither private/personal or "owned" by someone else (tangent: the thought that your work life is "entirely owned" by your employer is deeply scary.) Do you never read a book or see a movie you might want to recommend? Try a new restaurant? Visit an interesting location? Do you have no opinions you might want to share with friends or co-workers? Is there nothing in your life outside of "work" and "private"? -- - Vicki ZZZ zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog '---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/ From vlb at cfcl.com Sat Sep 22 10:03:22 2007 From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:03:22 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: Hmmm... I take your point about the conversational element. I can't agree with this: > Jaiku is more like micro-"blogging". Twitter is also microblogging. Not all weblogs get discussions in the comments. Other than that, I agree with you. The relationship between the post and the reply/comment is currently missing in Twitter. I doubt, however, that it will be missing for very long. > > Also, Jaiku is an agggregator. I'm currently feeding 15 other RSS feeds >where > I might be posting something (my Flickr, my use.perl, geekcruises >podcast, I know this is possible in Twitter. I'm "following" news feeds in Twitter this way. (RSS never clicked for me). However, I'm not sure that it's readily supported without effort. Thanks for the info! (even though I'll stick with Twitter :) -- - Vicki ZZZ zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog '---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/ From duane.obrien at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 14:30:26 2007 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:30:26 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: > Do you never read a book or see a movie you might want to recommend? Try a > new restaurant? Visit an interesting location? Do you have no opinions you > might want to share with friends or co-workers? Is there nothing in your > life outside of "work" and "private"? I fail, ultimately and catastrophically, to see what wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to tell the world what's going on in your life. I succeed, completely and absolutely, at being annoyed at the bevy of people who think that the world is genuinely interested in the fact that they drank pulpy orange juice this morning rather than non-pulpy. That's somewhat of an oversimplification. But only somewhat. And I dislike the not-so-gradually growing notion that being a private person is somehow unacceptable to the world at large. Unless it's about perl. All perl knowledge should be shared with the world. Not that I really think that, I just thought I'd try to bring it back on topic. I think what we really need is a service like twitter or jaiku that only perl people can use, and the only things posted to it are one line descriptions of what their problem was when they were debugging. "bad shebang" "too much recursion" "stupid periods" "scraper banned for violating T&C" "explosive decompression" "too much hash" THAT would be entertaining. And it would make the world a better place. -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. From ds94103 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 22 14:54:58 2007 From: ds94103 at earthlink.net (David Scott) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:54:58 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <8e9e24383cb83425dc4c2e93b89cefbb@earthlink.net> How does one get started with Twitter (or Jaiku for that matter)? I've spent some time investigating, but there seems to be a pretty big hump to get over just setting up friends lists, etc. Also, SMS costs money. I may sound like an out-of-it old fogey here but the overall usefulness of micro-blogging doesn't exactly hit me right between the eyes. Is there a secret sauce? d On Sep 22, 2007, at 10:03 AM, Vicki Brown wrote: > Hmmm... I take your point about the conversational element. > > I can't agree with this: >> Jaiku is more like micro-"blogging". > > Twitter is also microblogging. Not all weblogs get discussions in the > comments. > > Other than that, I agree with you. The relationship between the post > and > the reply/comment is currently missing in Twitter. I doubt, however, > that > it will be missing for very long. > >> >> Also, Jaiku is an agggregator. I'm currently feeding 15 other RSS >> feeds >> where >> I might be posting something (my Flickr, my use.perl, geekcruises >> podcast, > > I know this is possible in Twitter. I'm "following" news feeds in > Twitter > this way. (RSS never clicked for me). However, I'm not sure that it's > readily supported without effort. > > Thanks for the info! > (even though I'll stick with Twitter :) > -- > - Vicki > > ZZZ > zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA > z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech > zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/ > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sat Sep 22 18:12:09 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:12:09 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: (Vicki Brown's message of "Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:03:22 -0700") References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86hclmjic6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Vicki" == Vicki Brown writes: Vicki> Other than that, I agree with you. The relationship between the post Vicki> and the reply/comment is currently missing in Twitter. I doubt, Vicki> however, that it will be missing for very long. Twitter has been around far longer than Jaiku. I doubt they will ever head that direction. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sat Sep 22 18:16:44 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:16:44 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <8e9e24383cb83425dc4c2e93b89cefbb@earthlink.net> (David Scott's message of "Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:54:58 -0700") References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8e9e24383cb83425dc4c2e93b89cefbb@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <86d4waji4j.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "David" == David Scott writes: David> How does one get started with Twitter (or Jaiku for that matter)? I've David> spent some time investigating, but there seems to be a pretty big hump David> to get over just setting up friends lists, etc. Also, SMS costs money. I don't use SMS at all for my Jaiku (in fact, if you're in the US, you can't yet!). Instead, sign up for a Jaiku account on the web, and then start adding interesting people to follow. When you have something you want to say, just say it. And when you have something you want to comment on, do that. Eventually, as you end up commenting on things that other people are following or also commenting on, they'll add you as someone else to follow, provided your comments are interesting. For example, if you start following merlyn.jaiku.com (me), you'll see what I'm commenting on, and you'll see who comments on me. And you can slowly add them (many of them are Perl people, but not always) as you wish. You can also follow #perl, or any of the other "channels", or start one of your own, which will be listed on the master channel page. Any message posted to a channel starts its own thread. And that's another downside of twitter... without the threads, it's really hard to discover new interesting people with similar interests, because you get to add people only by names. How do you find those names? Watching the "everybody" feed? ugh, I tried that once. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sat Sep 22 18:30:27 2007 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:30:27 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: (Duane Obrien's message of "Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:30:26 -0700") References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <864phmjhho.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Duane" == Duane Obrien writes: Duane> I succeed, completely and absolutely, at being annoyed at the bevy of Duane> people who think that the world is genuinely interested in the fact Duane> that they drank pulpy orange juice this morning rather than non-pulpy. Are you also astounded to find that there *are* people who are genuinely interested in that sort of detail about someone else? Because I find that my microblog followers do indeed appreciate as many comments a day as I can muster. Maybe that wouldn't be you. Sounds like it wouldn't. Good thing there are different strokes for different folks. Duane> That's somewhat of an oversimplification. But only somewhat. And I Duane> dislike the not-so-gradually growing notion that being a private Duane> person is somehow unacceptable to the world at large. No, there are public people and private people. I started out a very private person. And now as I get older and more crotchety... I find being a public person perfectly acceptable. So I blog (perl at use.perl, non-perl at vox.com, microblog at jaiku and tumblr), and put (nearly) every picture in my life on Flickr, and plan on doing so for quite a long time. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From vlb at cfcl.com Sat Sep 22 18:33:43 2007 From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:33:43 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <86hclmjic6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86hclmjic6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: At 18:12 -0700 09/22/2007, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Vicki" == Vicki Brown writes: > > Vicki> Other than that, I agree with you. The relationship between the >post > Vicki> and the reply/comment is currently missing in Twitter. I doubt, > Vicki> however, that it will be missing for very long. > > Twitter has been around far longer than Jaiku. I doubt they will ever >head > that direction. I disagree. Jaiku is younger, therefore looks at other technologies and says "let's go this way". But Twitter is very responsive to the interests of the users. If you read through the Twitter blog, you will see that they have been morphing rapidly. This is why I've suggested that people who last looked at Twitter several months ago look again. It's changed. Twitter didn't originally have the ability to reply at all. Now it does. Who's to say where it will go? -- - Vicki ZZZ zzZ San Francisco Bay Area, CA z |\ _,,,---,,_ Books, Cats, Tech zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://cfcl.com/vlb |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' http://cfcl.com/vlb/weblog '---''(_/--' `-'\_) http://vlb.typepad.com/commentary/ From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Sat Sep 22 19:46:58 2007 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:46:58 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <6565A99F-09AF-46DB-A50A-14FC14D2CD3A@highwire.stanford.edu> I love that idea! My last three days boil down to: "use strict is too strict" "need spellchecker for variable names" "it's double-URL-encoded" *sigh* -- Mike PS - use strict isn't too strict, really, it just caught me doing something sloppy that I really wanted to do anyway. At least it's easy to turn off for a block at a time. Try *that* in Java... Ha! On Sep 22, 2007, at 2:30 PM, Duane Obrien wrote: > Unless it's about perl. All perl knowledge should be shared with the > world. Not that I really think that, I just thought I'd try to bring > it back on topic. I think what we really need is a service like > twitter or jaiku that only perl people can use, and the only things > posted to it are one line descriptions of what their problem was when > they were debugging. > > "bad shebang" > "too much recursion" > "stupid periods" > "scraper banned for violating T&C" > "explosive decompression" > "too much hash" > > THAT would be entertaining. And it would make the world a better > place. > From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Sat Sep 22 20:51:16 2007 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:51:16 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <8e9e24383cb83425dc4c2e93b89cefbb@earthlink.net> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <86bqbwnjdq.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <8e9e24383cb83425dc4c2e93b89cefbb@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200709230351.l8N3pGic068383@kzsu.stanford.edu> David Scott wrote: > I may sound like an out-of-it old fogey here but the overall usefulness > of micro-blogging doesn't exactly hit me right between the eyes. Is > there a secret sauce? I'm inclined to agree, but then it's often hard to describe to someone the point of a new, unfamiliar communications medium. I can remember trying to explain to people why I liked email, and getting responses like "but why not just phone them or send them a letter?" And anyway, I'm also someone who doesn't see what's so exciting about cell phones and so on (and if you aren't into "text"ing, it's hard to see how you'd enter your 140 word twits). Other people clearly have different set-points than I do in their need for social interactions, and I doubt that there's anything fundamentally wrong with this (though I have to confess I often make fun of cell phone addicts who seem to be afraid they're going to pop out of existance if they stop talking for a few minutes...). As for the public/private life issue, I think it's a bit of a non-issue... Myself, I've been living a (semi) public life for a long time now: http://obsidianrook.com/doomfiles If it makes any difference to my life that there's a pile of my musings on random subjects out there on the web, I'm not aware of it. Part of the appeal of on-line publication is that you figure if no one wants to read it, they just don't won't, and there's nothing lost on either side... And amateurish, egocentric "blog" writing would be less of a problem if google hadn't decided to index the stuff as though it were real content. Oh, and you want "on topic"? This is where my stuff about software engineering starts: http://obsidianrook.com/doomfiles/LANGUAGES_OF_POWER.html From andy at petdance.com Sat Sep 22 22:05:51 2007 From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 00:05:51 -0500 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <6565A99F-09AF-46DB-A50A-14FC14D2CD3A@highwire.stanford.edu> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> <6565A99F-09AF-46DB-A50A-14FC14D2CD3A@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2007, at 9:46 PM, Michael Friedman wrote: > "use strict is too strict" In what way? -- Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Sun Sep 23 01:07:13 2007 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:07:13 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> <6565A99F-09AF-46DB-A50A-14FC14D2CD3A@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Andy, You missed my PS at the bottom: PS - use strict isn't too strict, really, it just caught me doing something sloppy that I really wanted to do anyway. At least it's easy to turn off for a block at a time. Try *that* in Java... Ha! -- Mike On Sep 22, 2007, at 10:05 PM, Andy Lester wrote: > > On Sep 22, 2007, at 9:46 PM, Michael Friedman wrote: > >> "use strict is too strict" > > In what way? > > -- > Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance > > > > > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press Phone: 650-725-1974 Stanford University FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From doom at kzsu.stanford.edu Sun Sep 23 08:49:43 2007 From: doom at kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 08:49:43 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> <6565A99F-09AF-46DB-A50A-14FC14D2CD3A@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <200709231549.l8NFnh3Q076510@kzsu.stanford.edu> Andy Lester wrote: > Michael Friedman wrote: > > > "use strict is too strict" > > In what way? Once in a great while I want to do something like: { no strict 'refs'; my $value = &{ $constant_name }; } But that's about all I can think of. And I agree that it's cool that you can turn it off just for a moment (but I might not if I were managing a group of sloppy programmers). From rdm at cfcl.com Sun Sep 23 09:33:17 2007 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:33:17 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] OT: non-Perl announcement, Wild Cat Adventure Message-ID: A local (North Bay) group called Leopards, Etc does educational "reach out" programs. They bring the big cats. It's awesome: http://www.leopardsetc.com/meet.html The next Wild Cat Adventure program will be held at Foothill College, in Los Altos Hills, this afternoon at 2 PM. See Leopards Etc, http://www.leopardsetc.com for details. -r P.S. Be sure to bring $2 in __quarters__ for the parking!! -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From quinn at fairpath.com Sun Sep 23 09:50:30 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:50:30 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20070923165030.GA28159@fu.funkspiel.org> On Sat, Sep 22, 2007 at 02:30:26PM -0700, Duane Obrien wrote: > I think what we really need is a service like > twitter or jaiku that only perl people can use, and the only things > posted to it are one line descriptions of what their problem was when > they were debugging. > > "bad shebang" > "too much recursion" > "stupid periods" > "scraper banned for violating T&C" > "explosive decompression" > "too much hash" > > THAT would be entertaining. And it would make the world a better place. How about converting this into a lightning talk? "Common Perl Bugs (and How to Avoid Them." Are you up for it? Nudge, nudge, -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From sphink at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 10:29:45 2007 From: sphink at gmail.com (Steve Fink) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:29:45 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <7d7f2e8c0709241029w4aa0fbf5q2f903e8e3d8eb697@mail.gmail.com> On 9/22/07, Duane Obrien wrote: > "bad shebang" > "too much recursion" > "stupid periods" > "scraper banned for violating T&C" > "explosive decompression" > "too much hash" Is it just me, or does that list sound like it's about some things very different from Perl? > "too much hash" Drugs > "explosive decompression" Diving > "scraper banned for violating T&C" I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it's not work-friendly. > "stupid periods" I don't need to spell that one out for anyone here, do I? > "too much recursion" Lament of someone who bailed out of an undergraduate CS program. > "bad shebang" I think it's "do-bop she-*bop*" ==== My apologies to Duane. This is exactly what you can't stand, isn't it? From duane.obrien at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 14:34:31 2007 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:34:31 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <7d7f2e8c0709241029w4aa0fbf5q2f903e8e3d8eb697@mail.gmail.com> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> <7d7f2e8c0709241029w4aa0fbf5q2f903e8e3d8eb697@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > My apologies to Duane. This is exactly what you can't stand, isn't it? No, I'm glad someone went there with it. I'm a crank. But not a humorless one. I AM kinda surprised that there's people who want to know how Randal takes his OJ. Tell you the truth tho, I'm kinda curious now. Maybe how he takes his OJ is fundamental to his understanding of perl. If I had to guess, I'd say he takes it with vodka, on the rocks. I have an awesome sense of humor. I just don't get reality TV. Except for when it sucks me in. Like Survivorman. Survivorman is awesome. I totally want to know how Les Stroud takes his OJ. Probably through sock he's been wearing for 5 days, and it's not OJ it's the juice of some tree bark he scraped off with a rock and mashed up with another rock. I seem to have deviated. -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody. From quinn at fairpath.com Mon Sep 24 15:39:01 2007 From: quinn at fairpath.com (Quinn Weaver) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:39:01 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Sept. 25: Mike Schilli on log4perl Message-ID: <20070924223901.GA40755@fu.funkspiel.org> Reminder: we're meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) for Mike's log4perl talk. RSVP to Jeff.Thalhammer at barclaysglobal.com, so we can get a head-count for tha Little Star pizza. Full details are below and (with map links) at http://sf.pm.org/weblog/00000047.html. * * * log4perl author Mike Schilli will speak on his creation. We'll again provide Little Star pizza. RSVP to help us get a head-count: Jeff.Thalhammer at barclaysglobal.com. ********* WE ARE MEETING at 7:00 AGAIN. ********* l4p has been my logging package of choice for several years now. It's nifty: everything is configuration file-driven, so you can decide which of your components' messages to see, where to send your logs (syslog, file, database...), and what info to include in each message (hostname, file and line, stacktrace...) And it has a couple of advanced features, "mapped diagnostic context" and "nested diagnostic context," that have come in quite handy. Come and check it out. RSVP: Jeff.Thalhammer at barclaysglobal.com Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 Time: 7:00 p.m. Place: Barclays Global Investors, [6]45 Fremont St., San Francisco (between Market and Fremont). Transit details: Parking: There are several outdoor lots with cheap evening rates, all of them south of Market and within a few blocks of 45 Fremont. Look on Harrison and Fremont first. After work hours, these lots usually have plenty of spaces. From BART: Get off at the Embarcadero station. Take the Beale St. exit. Heading away from the water on Market, come to Fremont. Turn left on Fremont; 45 Fremont is the big building halfway down the block. From Caltrain: (Don't take Caltrain if you can avoid it. Trains run back at 10:00 p.m. and 11:59 p.m. only!) From the station, take the N Judah to the Embarcadero station, then follow the directions from BART. -- Quinn Weaver, independent contractor | President, San Francisco Perl Mongers http://fairpath.com/quinn/resume/ | http://sf.pm.org/ 510-520-5217 From bwalz at paradigm-healthcare.com Mon Sep 24 22:05:05 2007 From: bwalz at paradigm-healthcare.com (Bill Walz) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:05:05 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> <7d7f2e8c0709241029w4aa0fbf5q2f903e8e3d8eb697@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4451F51F-CC03-4D7C-A118-49BFB876BB9A@paradigm-healthcare.com> Please take this off-topic discussion somewhere else. -Bill On Sep 24, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Duane Obrien wrote: >> My apologies to Duane. This is exactly what you can't stand, isn't >> it? > > No, I'm glad someone went there with it. I'm a crank. But not a > humorless one. > > I AM kinda surprised that there's people who want to know how Randal > takes his OJ. Tell you the truth tho, I'm kinda curious now. Maybe > how he takes his OJ is fundamental to his understanding of perl. If I > had to guess, I'd say he takes it with vodka, on the rocks. > > I have an awesome sense of humor. I just don't get reality TV. > Except for when it sucks me in. Like Survivorman. Survivorman is > awesome. I totally want to know how Les Stroud takes his OJ. > Probably through sock he's been wearing for 5 days, and it's not OJ > it's the juice of some tree bark he scraped off with a rock and mashed > up with another rock. > > I seem to have deviated. > > -- > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > +-+-+ > Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing > everybody. > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm From rdm at cfcl.com Tue Sep 25 07:30:14 2007 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:30:14 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] BASS Meeting (SF), Wed. September 26 Message-ID: The Beer and Scripting SIG rides again! If you'd like to eat good Italian food, chat with other local scripters, and possibly take a look at laptop-demoed scripting hacks, this is the place to do it! For your convenience, here are the critical details: Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 (4th. Wed.) Time: 8:00 pm Place: Pasquales Pizzeria 701 Irving St. (At 8th. Ave.) San Francisco, California, USA 415/661-2140 See the BASS web page for more information: http://cfcl.com/rdm/bass/ -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From matt at cloudfactory.org Tue Sep 25 09:55:02 2007 From: matt at cloudfactory.org (Matthew Lanier) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sf-perl] Do You Twitter? In-Reply-To: <4451F51F-CC03-4D7C-A118-49BFB876BB9A@paradigm-healthcare.com> References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> <7d7f2e8c0709241029w4aa0fbf5q2f903e8e3d8eb697@mail.gmail.com> <4451F51F-CC03-4D7C-A118-49BFB876BB9A@paradigm-healthcare.com> Message-ID: hi there bill- i'm matt, the list grand-ma. having created this list to be about perl, things relating to perl, and things relating to people that relate to perl, i'm in no mood to boot the conversation. i feel your pain, though, and will ask quinn, the list mom, to start enforcing the use of [OT] tags in the subject line so that you can filter the list traffic. and yes, if it became overwhelmingly [OT], I'd step in. but we're not there yet. peace- m@ On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Bill Walz wrote: > Please take this off-topic discussion somewhere else. > > -Bill > > On Sep 24, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Duane Obrien wrote: > >>> My apologies to Duane. This is exactly what you can't stand, isn't >>> it? >> >> No, I'm glad someone went there with it. I'm a crank. But not a >> humorless one. >> >> I AM kinda surprised that there's people who want to know how Randal >> takes his OJ. Tell you the truth tho, I'm kinda curious now. Maybe >> how he takes his OJ is fundamental to his understanding of perl. If I >> had to guess, I'd say he takes it with vodka, on the rocks. >> >> I have an awesome sense of humor. I just don't get reality TV. >> Except for when it sucks me in. Like Survivorman. Survivorman is >> awesome. I totally want to know how Les Stroud takes his OJ. >> Probably through sock he's been wearing for 5 days, and it's not OJ >> it's the juice of some tree bark he scraped off with a rock and mashed >> up with another rock. >> >> I seem to have deviated. >> >> -- >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- >> +-+-+ >> Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing >> everybody. >> _______________________________________________ >> SanFrancisco-pm mailing list >> SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > > _______________________________________________ > SanFrancisco-pm mailing list > SanFrancisco-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm > -- Matthew D. P. K. Strelchun-Lanier matt at cloudfactory.org http://www.bearlywornpacifica.com From bh1 at light42.com Sat Sep 29 21:21:48 2007 From: bh1 at light42.com (Brian Hamlin) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:21:48 -0700 Subject: [sf-perl] 'Real' perl work In-Reply-To: References: <86vea4oken.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1F0577CA-760E-4F86-B12C-67DF4053EA55@highwire.stanford.edu> <7d7f2e8c0709241029w4aa0fbf5q2f903e8e3d8eb697@mail.gmail.com> <4451F51F-CC03-4D7C-A118-49BFB876BB9A@paradigm-healthcare.com> Message-ID: saw this on Craigslist - I guess they know what they want :) http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/eng/433100267.html