From george at metaart.org Mon Feb 7 16:43:25 2005 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Feb 7 16:26:07 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Re: Welcome to the "SanFrancisco-pm" mailing list Message-ID: <200502071643.25381.george@metaart.org> The list has moved to Mailman on pm.org! Cool. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Welcome to the "SanFrancisco-pm" mailing list Date: Monday 07 February 2005 3:44 pm From: sanfrancisco-pm-request@pm.org To: george@metaart.org We've Moved! The San Francisco Perl Users Group (aka San Francisco Perl Mongers) mailing list has moved to pm.org. ... General information about the mailing list is at: http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sanfrancisco-pm From vlb at cfcl.com Mon Feb 7 16:31:34 2005 From: vlb at cfcl.com (Vicki Brown) Date: Mon Feb 7 16:31:49 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Testing 0 1 2 Message-ID: > The San Francisco Perl Users Group (aka San Francisco Perl Mongers) mailing >list has moved to pm.org. This is only a test. Had this been a real message, you would have been told where to go and what to do. As you probably get enough of that all day, we now return you to your regular email. -- Vicki Brown ZZZ Journeyman Sourceror: SF Bay Area, CA zz |\ _,,,---,,_ Scripts & Philtres http://www.cfcl.com zz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_Code, Doc, Process, QA http://cfcl.com/vlb |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'Perl, Unix, Mac OS X, WWW ____________________ '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ___________________________ From qw at sf.pm.org Mon Feb 7 17:06:47 2005 From: qw at sf.pm.org (Quinn Weaver) Date: Mon Feb 7 17:06:55 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Testing 0 1 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050208010647.GC30902@web02.sf.beigetower.net> On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 04:31:34PM -0800, Vicki Brown wrote: > > The San Francisco Perl Users Group (aka San Francisco Perl Mongers) mailing > >list has moved to pm.org. > > This is only a test. Had this been a real message, you would have been told > where to go and what to do. > As you probably get enough of that all day, we now return you to your regular > email. Yes! It's done. Majordomo is dead. Long live Mailman! Thanks to our hosting providers Rich and Vicki for taking care of this change. You officially rock, again. :) This should fix the message delivery times Belden saw, plus some under-the-hood annoyances. /me is extremely grateful. --- qw (Quinn Weaver); #President, San Francisco Perl Mongers =for information, visit http://sf.pm.org/weblog =cut From blyman at iii.com Tue Feb 8 09:26:48 2005 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Tue Feb 8 09:26:23 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Testing 0 1 2 In-Reply-To: <20050208010647.GC30902@web02.sf.beigetower.net> References: <20050208010647.GC30902@web02.sf.beigetower.net> Message-ID: <1107883608.17254.14.camel@ls104> On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 17:06, Quinn Weaver wrote: > On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 04:31:34PM -0800, Vicki Brown wrote: > > > The San Francisco Perl Users Group (aka San Francisco Perl Mongers) mailing > > >list has moved to pm.org. > > > > This is only a test. Had this been a real message, you would have been told > > where to go and what to do. > > As you probably get enough of that all day, we now return you to your regular > > email. > > Yes! It's done. Majordomo is dead. Long live Mailman! > > Thanks to our hosting providers Rich and Vicki for taking care of this change. > You officially rock, again. :) > > This should fix the message delivery times Belden saw, plus some under-the-hood > annoyances. /me is extremely grateful. > /me waves. The faster delivery times will (hopefully) prevent me from sticking my foot in my mouth. It's not that I mind the taste. I just get funny looks. From squid at panix.com Sat Feb 12 23:04:48 2005 From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu) Date: Tue Feb 15 12:27:21 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] retry ! [MAILER-DAEMON@panix.com (Mail Delivery System)] Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender Message-ID: An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MAILER-DAEMON@panix.com (Mail Delivery System) Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:29:32 -0500 (EST) Size: 3214 Url: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/sanfrancisco-pm/attachments/20050213/0f5c6fdd/attachment.eml From rdm at cfcl.com Tue Feb 15 20:56:54 2005 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Tue Feb 15 22:02:40 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] fwd: EFF Celebrates Innovation - BayFF on Tuesday, February 22nd Message-ID: This event is happening about half a mile away from the SFPUG meeting. There might be time to visit the EFF trade show and then hustle over to SFPUG. http://mappoint.msn.com/(fospfkrfx0dys5mkyjtj0rvu)/map.aspx?L=USA&C=37.78740%2c-122.39946&A=7.16667&P=|37.78740%2c-122.39946|1|111+Minna+St%2c+San+Francisco%2c+CA+94105|L1| -r EFF Celebrates Innovation! Check out Product Demos and Take Part in an Interactive Discussion at our February BayFF WHEN: Tuesday, February 22nd, 2005 7:00 p.m. to 9:30 p.m. WHAT: "Inventive Gizmos - A Celebration of Innovation" Innovation. We love it. The upcoming BayFF is a celebration of all the technological wonders we've been able to enjoy enjoy thanks to the legal shield provided by the 1984 Betamax ruling. Come check out cool new gizmos from local tech companies, El Gato, Slim Devices, and Sling Media. EFF attorneys and tech gurus will talk about how you can help protect the pro-innovation environment that allows products like these to flourish. WHO: Electronic Frontier Foundation www.eff.org El Gato - www.elgato.com Slim Devices - www.slimdevices.com Slingmedia - www.slingmedia.com WHERE: 111 Minna Gallery 111 Minna Street San Francisco, CA 94105 Tel: (415) 974-1719 www.111minnagallery.com This event is free and open to the general public. You must be 21+. Refreshments will be served. Please RSVP to (415) - 436-9333 x129 or bayff-rsvp@eff.org 111 Minna Gallery is accessible via BART. Get off at the Montgomery station and use the exit marked 2nd and Market. Walk south on 2nd Street for a block and a half, and take a right down the Minna Street Alley. 111 Minna Street is located between Mission and Howard. The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading civil liberties organization working to protect rights in the digital world. EFF is a member-supported organization andmaintains one of the most linked-to Web sites in the world: http://www.eff.org/ -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com - Canta Forda Computer Laboratory http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series From duane.obrien at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 12:15:22 2005 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Thu Feb 17 12:15:32 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Can I rant, rave, and delurk for a moment? Message-ID: Apologies - I need to vent to people who will understand. Also - Hi. I've not met any of you. I don't think. I need to make it out to a talk. So I get called into this meeting yesterday, you all surely know the kind. Several panicked managers, big huge project, last minute emergency, need it now need it now need it now, build test verify and deploy in less than a week. Without going into gorey details, the environment I have to work with is, to say the least, Gordian. But all they needed was a page to take in some query parameters, get a couple bits of user input, and fire off an email to Mysterious Powers, who would then punch keys and make Magic happen. I didn't have access to much within the environment, as it consisted largely of BigHonkingApplications and GoldenHammers. But it was on a solaris box, and I did have perl, and something apache-like that would hangle cgi. And the cgi would have been behind a secure proxy, requiring several forms of validation and a blood sample to even access. So, I turn the solution around in a couple hours (CGI and Net::SMTP to the rescue). The mock up was the final solution, branded, tight, and gift wrapped. Seven days became 2 hours. High Fives were exchanged from previously mentioned panicked managers, and so on. Then it goes to technical review, or at the least some big meeting with people who's names can't be pronounced without the use of several acronyms. The guy in charge of the technical aspect of things, a professed lover of people with technical skills &c, red-flags it. No code review, never asked a question about it, no research. No reason given, no explaination given, other than a distaste for perl, stemming from what I can only assume is perlPanic. We all know the perlPanic - perl isn't secure! perl is vulnerable! perl killed my server! perl drank all my beer! perl ate my baby! And I went from feeling like the guy with the red S on his chest, to feeling like the guy with the big black L on his forehead. Yeah, I know. It's nothing new. But I can't be the only one who translates "We can't use that - it's in perl" to mean "You obviously have no idea what you're doing!" And today, I just don't see the point of it all. There was going to be a revisit to the discussion today, which turned into a "We'll put up a static page with a phone number to call instead, and do something in jsp later." Watch the costs multiply. I know from reading the list that it's usually meeting announcements and technical questions and so on, but if you've got the bandwidth to spare, could someone else share a perlPanic horror story so I don't feel like suck a lame duck? Apologies for the vented plasma, -d -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "Nobody wants to be drawn as a carrot when they're bleeding." From herbr at pfinders.com Thu Feb 17 12:39:10 2005 From: herbr at pfinders.com (Herb Rubin) Date: Thu Feb 17 12:39:27 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Can I rant, rave, and delurk for a moment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1108672750.3450.24.camel@fred.sf.pfinders.com> Duane, I've had people look at me funny for using Perl. I worked at Sun and did a good sized Perl project to troubleshoot fiber optic raid arrays. It worked great and the field technicians loved it. But, once the Sun managers got wind of this cool tool, they took it over and converted it to Java, like Perl was some bastard child programming language. The field techs couldn't use it because they were forced to have a GUI available, no more telnet or ssh. It was a mess. They told us they missed having Perl and looking at the source code. To keep my spirits up, I just keep in mind that Microsoft only has a 20% market share in web servers worldwide and dropping. http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html But, Perl is getting more respect as Linux gets more respect. Herb On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 12:15, Duane Obrien wrote: > Apologies - I need to vent to people who will understand. Also - Hi. > I've not met any of you. I don't think. I need to make it out to a > talk. > > So I get called into this meeting yesterday, you all surely know the > kind. Several panicked managers, big huge project, last minute > emergency, need it now need it now need it now, build test verify and > deploy in less than a week. > > Without going into gorey details, the environment I have to work with > is, to say the least, Gordian. But all they needed was a page to take > in some query parameters, get a couple bits of user input, and fire > off an email to Mysterious Powers, who would then punch keys and make > Magic happen. > > I didn't have access to much within the environment, as it consisted > largely of BigHonkingApplications and GoldenHammers. But it was on a > solaris box, and I did have perl, and something apache-like that would > hangle cgi. And the cgi would have been behind a secure proxy, > requiring several forms of validation and a blood sample to even > access. > > So, I turn the solution around in a couple hours (CGI and Net::SMTP to > the rescue). The mock up was the final solution, branded, tight, and > gift wrapped. Seven days became 2 hours. High Fives were exchanged > from previously mentioned panicked managers, and so on. > > Then it goes to technical review, or at the least some big meeting > with people who's names can't be pronounced without the use of several > acronyms. > > The guy in charge of the technical aspect of things, a professed lover > of people with technical skills &c, red-flags it. No code review, > never asked a question about it, no research. No reason given, no > explaination given, other than a distaste for perl, stemming from what > I can only assume is perlPanic. > > We all know the perlPanic - perl isn't secure! perl is vulnerable! > perl killed my server! perl drank all my beer! perl ate my baby! > And I went from feeling like the guy with the red S on his chest, to > feeling like the guy with the big black L on his forehead. > > Yeah, I know. It's nothing new. But I can't be the only one who > translates "We can't use that - it's in perl" to mean "You obviously > have no idea what you're doing!" > > And today, I just don't see the point of it all. There was going to > be a revisit to the discussion today, which turned into a "We'll put > up a static page with a phone number to call instead, and do something > in jsp later." Watch the costs multiply. > > I know from reading the list that it's usually meeting announcements > and technical questions and so on, but if you've got the bandwidth to > spare, could someone else share a perlPanic horror story so I don't > feel like suck a lame duck? > > Apologies for the vented plasma, > -d -- Herb Rubin Pathfinders Software herbr@pfinders.com http://www.pfinders.com phone: 650-343-4571 fax: 650-343-4675 From chris at noncombatant.org Thu Feb 17 13:28:06 2005 From: chris at noncombatant.org (Chris Palmer) Date: Thu Feb 17 13:28:18 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Can I rant, rave, and delurk for a moment? In-Reply-To: <1108672750.3450.24.camel@fred.sf.pfinders.com> References: <1108672750.3450.24.camel@fred.sf.pfinders.com> Message-ID: <20050217212806.GC32725@nodewarrior.org> > it to Java, like Perl was some bastard child programming language. To be fair, Perl *is* a bastard child programming language. That is the source of its strengths and its weaknesses. It really is all-too-often true that Hell is Other People's Perl, even though we all know it's possible to write clean and maintainable Perl. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, Duane; I too have been ordered to stop using Perl and Python and to use Java (incl. Servlets and JSP) instead. It sucks. Perl, Python and PHP are more naturally suited to web glue applications than Java even with JSP, but Java is considered good for some unfathomable reason. I believe that Java is considered good precisely because it is so big and expensive. But that's irrelevant. Duane could probably have done the job quickly using J2[SE]E and JSP, if he were already a Java guy (maybe he is, I dunno). What's relevant is that source code is a way to communicate with people, and when in Rome, you should at least try to speak Italian. From george at metaart.org Thu Feb 17 13:57:02 2005 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Thu Feb 17 13:39:10 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Can I rant, rave, and delurk for a moment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200502171357.02412.george@metaart.org> Duane, Sort of, but the epilogue is happy. Background: Once upon a time, I was a programmer on a team developing & maintaining a group of related applications for a large financial company. The applications were written in a language I prefer not to mention. (Oh, the pain.) I was writing a lot of code in the unnamed language. For a couple of years, I'd been using Perl to support my (and the team's) development. Perl had become easily my favorite language. The Story: My manager came to me and asked me to make a request for training. My understanding was that almost anything would be approved. So I happily requested some Perl training. Alas, my request was denied. My manager explained that given the company's direction he could think of no scenario in which Perl would be a factor. Yuk. Epilogue: Later, I quit, partly because of that bad experience. My next job as an employee ended up involving using nothing but Perl. --- Skoal, George On Thursday 17 February 2005 12:15 pm, Duane Obrien wrote: ... could someone else share a perlPanic horror story so I don't > feel like suck a lame duck? ... From duane.obrien at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 15:22:17 2005 From: duane.obrien at gmail.com (Duane Obrien) Date: Thu Feb 17 15:22:25 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Can I rant, rave, and delurk for a moment? In-Reply-To: <20050217212806.GC32725@nodewarrior.org> References: <1108672750.3450.24.camel@fred.sf.pfinders.com> <20050217212806.GC32725@nodewarrior.org> Message-ID: > But that's irrelevant. Duane could probably have done the job quickly > using J2[SE]E and JSP, if he were already a Java guy (maybe he is, I > dunno). What's relevant is that source code is a way to communicate with > people, and when in Rome, you should at least try to speak Italian. But see, that's the thing. I'm not in Rome, or at least I didn't think I was. I don't get to work with perl all the time, but I do it enough that I get all the perl and perl-friendly work in my immediate area, and some from the darker corners of the company as well. So it's not like perl has been flatly rejected from a policy standpoint or anything. And maybe that's what I don't understand. It's more like living in Rome, and going in to work and suddenly your boss (or in this case, your boss's boss's boss) suddenly speaks Esperanto. I guess the other part I left out of this is that the solution has a 2 month life expectancy, at which point it would be replaced with a properly customized app (the one there now, it just confuses people be being helpful). -D -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "Nobody wants to be drawn as a carrot when they're bleeding." From david at fetter.org Thu Feb 17 16:14:04 2005 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Thu Feb 17 16:14:14 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Can I rant, rave, and delurk for a moment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050218001404.GB4113@fetter.org> On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 12:15:22PM -0800, Duane Obrien wrote: > Apologies - I need to vent to people who will understand. Also - Hi. > I've not met any of you. I don't think. I need to make it out to a > talk. And a lovely day to you, too :) > So I get called into this meeting yesterday, you all surely know the > kind. Several panicked managers, big huge project, last minute > emergency, need it now need it now need it now, build test verify > and deploy in less than a week. Right. You almost alwasy know when somebody is telling you that something is just incredibly urgent in this business and it is not. It's usually better simply to call bullshit on this than to stress yourself with a totally artificial hurry. Luckily, there are jobs available for many with skills :) Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote! From qw at sf.pm.org Fri Feb 18 17:09:18 2005 From: qw at sf.pm.org (Quinn Weaver) Date: Fri Feb 18 17:11:39 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Reminder: anti-spam presentation Tuesday Message-ID: <20050219010918.GA64472@cfcl.com> This is a reminder that we're having an anti-spam presentation on Tuesday. See http://sf.pm.org/weblog/ for details. This is a catered meeting (= free food). I'm ordering Thai (not north Indian as originally planned). If you want to be included, please RSVP, please. :) (And if you have preferences food, it doesn't hurt to express them. I'll try to order enough to please everyone.) Thanks, --- qw (Quinn Weaver); #President, San Francisco Perl Mongers =for information, visit http://sf.pm.org/weblog =cut From david at fetter.org Sun Feb 20 22:36:10 2005 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Sun Feb 20 22:36:23 2005 Subject: [sf-perl] Reminder: anti-spam presentation Tuesday In-Reply-To: <20050219010918.GA64472@cfcl.com> References: <20050219010918.GA64472@cfcl.com> Message-ID: <20050221063610.GC6421@fetter.org> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 05:09:18PM -0800, Quinn Weaver wrote: > This is a reminder that we're having an anti-spam presentation on > Tuesday. See http://sf.pm.org/weblog/ for details. > > This is a catered meeting (= free food). I'm ordering Thai (not > north Indian as originally planned). If you want to be included, > please RSVP, please. :) > > (And if you have preferences food, it doesn't hurt to express them. > I'll try to order enough to please everyone.) > > Thanks, Consider me R'd SVP. I like spicy, including, but not limited to hot. :) Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote!