From rkleeman at energoncube.net Tue Sep 14 13:08:23 2010 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:08:23 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Meeting Thursday, September 16 Message-ID: Hello Fellow Perl Mongers, Just your normal reminder that Thursday is our monthly meeting. We're meeting at the offices of Anonymizer.com, near I-805 and Mira Mesa Blvd. We'll get things rolling about 7 PM. Drop me a quick note if you intend to come. Or, if the urge strikes you at the last moment, drop on by anyways. I look forward to seeing you all! From rkleeman at energoncube.net Thu Sep 16 10:38:36 2010 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:36 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Meeting tonight! Message-ID: Hello Perl Mongers, Our monthly meeting is tonight. We will be meeting at our normal time and place, 7 PM at the offices of Anonymizer.com, near I-805 and Mira Mesa Blvd. We'll look forward to seeing you all there. From rkleeman at energoncube.net Mon Sep 20 11:01:41 2010 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:01:41 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! Message-ID: Good news everyone! Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and he's willing to give a talk. He lists two possible dates for his talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus Day). Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the date that works best. Once we have that figured out, we'll figure which talk might be of most interest. You can look over the entire list here: http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/. Think about what you'd like, maybe discuss it with the list, but hold off on voting until after we've figured out the date. -- Bob From chris at chrisgrau.com Mon Sep 20 12:04:38 2010 From: chris at chrisgrau.com (Chris Grau) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:04:38 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100920190438.GB3799@chrisgrau.com> On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:01:41AM -0700, Bob Kleemann wrote: > Good news everyone! Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and > he's willing to give a talk. He lists two possible dates for his > talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus > Day). Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the > date that works best. +1 for Monday. > Once we have that figured out, we'll figure which talk might be of > most interest. You can look over the entire list here: > http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/. Think about what you'd like, > maybe discuss it with the list, but hold off on voting until after > we've figured out the date. Looking over the list, I don't really have a preference. While not specifically Perl, Future I.T. and Future Science look interesting. From ruberad at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 12:11:10 2010 From: ruberad at gmail.com (Reuben Settergren) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:11:10 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] San-Diego-pm Digest, Vol 77, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yay! Can I vote twice for Monday since I missed him last time? r On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 12:00 PM, wrote: > Send San-Diego-pm mailing list submissions to > san-diego-pm at pm.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > san-diego-pm-request at pm.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > san-diego-pm-owner at pm.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of San-Diego-pm digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Good news everyone! (Bob Kleemann) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:01:41 -0700 > From: Bob Kleemann > Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! > To: San Diego Perl Mongers > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Good news everyone! Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and > he's willing to give a talk. He lists two possible dates for his > talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus > Day). Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the > date that works best. > > Once we have that figured out, we'll figure which talk might be of > most interest. You can look over the entire list here: > http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/. Think about what you'd like, > maybe discuss it with the list, but hold off on voting until after > we've figured out the date. > > -- Bob > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > > End of San-Diego-pm Digest, Vol 77, Issue 4 > ******************************************* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlssdpm at schnapp.org Mon Sep 20 12:45:06 2010 From: rlssdpm at schnapp.org (Russ Schnapp) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:45:06 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: <4C97B880.1070109@schnapp.org> References: <4C97B880.1070109@schnapp.org> Message-ID: <4C97B9C2.4040301@schnapp.org> I'd also vote for Monday night. As for the topic, as always, I'd probably come to hear Damian read the phonebook -- whatever that is... But, if given a preference, I'd vote for: The Missing Link Twilight Perl ...Quaquaversal... ReDeveloping ...Russ From jskeys at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 13:04:16 2010 From: jskeys at gmail.com (Jeff Keys) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:04:16 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > > Good news everyone! ?Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and > he's willing to give a talk. ?He lists two possible dates for his > talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus > Day). ?Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the > date that works best. > I'll vote for Sunday only because I have a conflict on that Monday. From kst at mib.org Mon Sep 20 13:15:44 2010 From: kst at mib.org (Keith Thompson) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:15:44 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100920201544.GA28160@nuthaus.mib.org> On Mon 10-09-20 13:04, Jeff Keys wrote: > On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > > > > Good news everyone! ?Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and > > he's willing to give a talk. ?He lists two possible dates for his > > talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus > > Day). ?Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the > > date that works best. > > > > I'll vote for Sunday only because I have a conflict on that Monday. Ditto; if it's on Monday I won't be able to make it. -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst at mib.org Nokia "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this." -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister" From elspicyjack at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 14:53:43 2010 From: elspicyjack at gmail.com (Brian Manning) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:53:43 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another vote for Sunday, unfortunately. On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > Good news everyone! ?Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and > he's willing to give a talk. ?He lists two possible dates for his > talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus > Day). ?Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the > date that works best. > > Once we have that figured out, we'll figure which talk might be of > most interest. ?You can look over the entire list here: > http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/. ?Think about what you'd like, > maybe discuss it with the list, but hold off on voting until after > we've figured out the date. > > ?-- Bob > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Sep 22 11:19:08 2010 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:19:08 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled Message-ID: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They both said "it's getting *very* hard to find people." Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? Or something else entirely? By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. I'm just trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since I'm also working here for a while. (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From christopher.p.hart at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:26:56 2010 From: christopher.p.hart at gmail.com (Christopher Hart) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:26:56 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: I couldn't find a job writing Perl in the So. California area, so i moved. I couldn't find a job writing Perl here either, and of course all i hear is PHP PHP PHP... blah, I found a Python gig and I feel like I'm wearing chains... :P On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside > discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -- Respectfully, Chris Hart Developer / System Administrator Insuremonkey.com 2080 E. Flamingo, Suite 223 Las Vegas, NV 89119 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Sep 22 11:29:32 2010 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:29:32 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: (Christopher Hart's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:26:56 -0700") References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86hbhh4ooj.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Christopher" == Christopher Hart writes: Christopher> I couldn't find a job writing Perl in the So. California Christopher> area, so i moved. When were you looking though? I'm finding late-2010 to be night and day compared to late-2009, and clearly above late 2008. *I* couldn't even get work at the start of 2009, willing to work *anywhere* in the US on anything. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From tanicholson at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:33:54 2010 From: tanicholson at gmail.com (Thomas Nicholson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:33:54 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: I don't know if this data is accurate, but I see the same pattern in my world, with respect to the demand for Perl. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/paperinfo/tpci/Perl.html Thomas Nicholson On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). ?They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. ?Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. ?I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > From jsoverson at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:34:33 2010 From: jsoverson at gmail.com (Jarrod Overson) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:34:33 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: Not sure about other elsewhere, but my company was a perl shop for about 8 years but started migrating the vast majority of its code to java about 2 years ago due to the manic ramblings of a man selling scrum. I haven't been in the job market for about 4 years, but it wasn't promising for perl when I was. -- Jarrod. On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside > discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Sep 22 11:35:56 2010 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:35:56 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: (Thomas Nicholson's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:33:54 -0700") References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <868w2t4odv.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Thomas" == Thomas Nicholson writes: Thomas> I don't know if this data is accurate, but I see the same pattern in Thomas> my world, with respect to the demand for Perl. Thomas> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/paperinfo/tpci/Perl.html You lose once you mention tiobe. Give me *real* stats. Not ones trusted by people who have no brains (PHBs). -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From carolyn at supersaturated.com Wed Sep 22 11:57:02 2010 From: carolyn at supersaturated.com (Carolyn Ray) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: I'm in San Diego. I'm always on the lookout for contracts/jobs, either locally or telecommuting, and they seem to be very, very rare. The only viable opportunities I've found, I heard about privately from someone within the hiring organization. All I can think is that you have to have inside contacts who very selectively announce opportunities just to a few people that they know. Maybe hirers aren't finding people, because they keep the opportunities so quiet. :/ -- Carolyn Ray, Ph.D. www.supersaturated.com The mind is a terrible thing. On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > From joel at fentin.com Wed Sep 22 11:36:50 2010 From: joel at fentin.com (Joel Fentin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:36:50 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <4C9A4CC2.1030200@fentin.com> On 9/22/2010 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? There once was a job board on the San Diego Perl Monger website. A place for those looking for programmers and another for those looking for gigs. I got a few gigs from it. -- Joel Fentin tel: 760-749-8863 Biz Website: http://fentin.com Personal Website: http://fentin.com/me From christopher.p.hart at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 11:39:15 2010 From: christopher.p.hart at gmail.com (Christopher Hart) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:39:15 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86hbhh4ooj.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86hbhh4ooj.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: >> "When were you looking though? I'm finding late-2010 to be night and day >> compared to late-2009, and clearly above late 2008." I was actively seeking in early 2010 .. (approx. February - May) On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Christopher" == Christopher Hart > writes: > > Christopher> I couldn't find a job writing Perl in the So. California > Christopher> area, so i moved. > > When were you looking though? I'm finding late-2010 to be night and day > compared to late-2009, and clearly above late 2008. > > *I* couldn't even get work at the start of 2009, willing to work > *anywhere* in the US on anything. > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside > discussion > -- Respectfully, Chris Hart Developer / System Administrator Insuremonkey.com 2080 E. Flamingo, Suite 223 Las Vegas, NV 89119 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From menolly at mib.org Wed Sep 22 11:48:07 2010 From: menolly at mib.org (Menolly) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: When I was last looking, almost 5 years ago, I had lots of interviews, which led to one offer I turned down because it was way low and two companies that wanted to make an offer but couldn't get the paperwork through before I had to give an answer to the offer I accepted, which is where I am still. And that was only within commuting distance of my residence; I wasn't looking in LA or Orange County at all, though I have in previous searches. However, 5 years is an era in the tech market; I have no idea what it looks like now. I do know that I know very few unemployed Perl programmers. > On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Christopher Hart wrote: > I couldn't find a job writing Perl in the So. California area, so i moved. > > I couldn't find a job writing Perl here either, and of course all i hear is PHP PHP PHP... > blah, I found a Python gig and I feel like I'm wearing chains... > > :P > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). ?They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. ?Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. ?I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > > > > > -- > Respectfully, > Chris Hart > Developer / System Administrator > Insuremonkey.com > 2080 E. Flamingo, Suite 223 > Las Vegas, NV 89119 > > -- menolly at mib.org http://www.livejournal.com/~nolly/ On that day, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" And then will I declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me you evildoers." -- Matt 7:20-23, RSV From menolly at mib.org Wed Sep 22 11:48:56 2010 From: menolly at mib.org (Menolly) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would prefer Monday evening, but could probably make Sunday afternoon work. On Mon, 20 Sep 2010, Bob Kleemann wrote: > Good news everyone! Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and > he's willing to give a talk. He lists two possible dates for his > talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus > Day). Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the > date that works best. > > Once we have that figured out, we'll figure which talk might be of > most interest. You can look over the entire list here: > http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/. Think about what you'd like, > maybe discuss it with the list, but hold off on voting until after > we've figured out the date. > > -- Bob > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -- menolly at mib.org http://www.livejournal.com/~nolly/ On that day, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" And then will I declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me you evildoers." -- Matt 7:20-23, RSV From rkleeman at energoncube.net Wed Sep 22 12:02:41 2010 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:02:41 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: This is an interesting problem that has been discussed at some meetings. The best answers we could come up with were: 1) Many Perl programmers are quite happy where they are at, and so are reluctant to entertain other offers. This also affects the hiring companies, as they find it hard to hire for a Perl position, and may move to other languages (Java programmers are a dime a dozen). 2) There may be a decline in Perl programmers. PHP, Python, Ruby, etc may be grabbing those programmers. I'm not sure what the best solutions might be: increase the talent pool, increase the advertising, increase the expectation of pay for somebody knowledgeable in Perl, or something else entirely. If anybody has some real ideas on things we could try (free Perl tutorials? Perl job fairs? Anything?!), I'm willing to help make them happen. On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). ?They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. ?Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. ?I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > From elspicyjack at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 12:07:07 2010 From: elspicyjack at gmail.com (Brian Manning) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:07:07 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > This is an interesting problem that has been discussed at some > meetings. ?The best answers we could come up with were: > ?1) Many Perl programmers are quite happy where they are at, and so > are reluctant to entertain other offers. ?This also affects the hiring > companies, as they find it hard to hire for a Perl position, and may > move to other languages (Java programmers are a dime a dozen). > ?2) There may be a decline in Perl programmers. ?PHP, Python, Ruby, > etc may be grabbing those programmers. 3) If you've lived in San Diego for any length of time, your attitude towards Los Angeles usually is... "Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there!" Thanks, Brian From elspicyjack at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 12:07:07 2010 From: elspicyjack at gmail.com (Brian Manning) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:07:07 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > This is an interesting problem that has been discussed at some > meetings. ?The best answers we could come up with were: > ?1) Many Perl programmers are quite happy where they are at, and so > are reluctant to entertain other offers. ?This also affects the hiring > companies, as they find it hard to hire for a Perl position, and may > move to other languages (Java programmers are a dime a dozen). > ?2) There may be a decline in Perl programmers. ?PHP, Python, Ruby, > etc may be grabbing those programmers. 3) If you've lived in San Diego for any length of time, your attitude towards Los Angeles usually is... "Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there!" Thanks, Brian From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Sep 22 12:33:50 2010 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:33:50 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: (Brian Manning's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:07:07 -0700") References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86vd5x374x.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Manning writes: Brian> 3) If you've lived in San Diego for any length of time, your attitude Brian> towards Los Angeles usually is... Brian> "Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there!" I can totally relate to that. I too am merely *visiting* Los Angeles, albeit for work. But so far, what I'm hearing is "supply is high in San Diego, demand is very high in Los Angeles". So I'll stop lumping the two together in further research. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From pm at bionikchickens.com Wed Sep 22 12:45:05 2010 From: pm at bionikchickens.com (Nicholas Wehr) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 12:45:05 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: My sense, after having a couple job posts lapse unfilled, is that the "standard tech" recruitment methods are weak. I'm curious what you guys have found successful. The last two positions I filled were referrals from personal contacts. Do you keep a linkedin profile current? Do you scan monster or dice for interesting jobs? Do you delve into craigslist for gigs? I don't keep my eye on job postings unless I'm about ready to jump ship or have other reasons (compensation analysis, etc.) what about you? On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > This is an interesting problem that has been discussed at some > meetings. The best answers we could come up with were: > 1) Many Perl programmers are quite happy where they are at, and so > are reluctant to entertain other offers. This also affects the hiring > companies, as they find it hard to hire for a Perl position, and may > move to other languages (Java programmers are a dime a dozen). > 2) There may be a decline in Perl programmers. PHP, Python, Ruby, > etc may be grabbing those programmers. > > I'm not sure what the best solutions might be: increase the talent > pool, increase the advertising, increase the expectation of pay for > somebody knowledgeable in Perl, or something else entirely. > > If anybody has some real ideas on things we could try (free Perl > tutorials? Perl job fairs? Anything?!), I'm willing to help make > them happen. > > > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz > wrote: > > > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They both said "it's > > getting *very* hard to find people." > > > > Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? > > > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > > > Or something else entirely? > > > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. I'm just > > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > > I'm also working here for a while. > > > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > > > > -- > > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 > 0095 > > > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside > discussion > > _______________________________________________ > > San-Diego-pm mailing list > > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > > > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carolyn at supersaturated.com Wed Sep 22 13:18:28 2010 From: carolyn at supersaturated.com (Carolyn Ray) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Bob Kleemann wrote: > 1) Many Perl programmers are quite happy where they are at, and so are > reluctant to entertain other offers. This also affects the hiring > companies, as they find it hard to hire for a Perl position, and may > move to other languages (Java programmers are a dime a dozen). One factor may be services like RentACoder (and worse). I wasted a lot of time on those sites until I realized what was going on. I've found it practically impossible to get one of those contracts, even though I was ready to take on a few projects for almost nothing, just so that I could say that I did. There are, apparently, lots and lots of Perl programmers in India who find it worthwhile to work for far less than $5.00 US, and they are at the sites all the time. By the time I read a description and decide to try for it, it is gone to the lowest bidder. I have no idea how good a job these people do, or even if they complete the jobs, but to a hiring party it probably *looks* like Perl programmers are a dime a dozen, and it certainly wouldn't be worth paying $45/hour and up for an American programmer when you can get "the same product" so cheap! I'd be happy to work for $3.00/hr, if my monthly expenses were $50.00, but, you know, they aren't. So that's one thing. > 2) There may be a decline in Perl programmers. PHP, Python, Ruby, > etc may be grabbing those programmers. Most people that I know have moved away from Perl because they can't find jobs that don't require all of the above and more, usually instead of Perl rather than in addition to these other skills. Whenever I talk to people about looking for a Perl position or contract, they sagely advise me to learn the hottest new language instead. So it may not be that there is a decline in Perl programmers or that Perl programmers are satisfied with their current Perl job, but rather that many were forced to move to other languages and take jobs doing *that*--and it's a hassle to change jobs, so even if they hate Java and Flash they are going to stay with a safe position rather than leave it to take a Perl opportunity. One more thing: There seems to be a disconnect between formal education and Perl. When employers insist on both Perl expertise AND formal education in computer science, I think they may be asking too much. It may be like confusing weekly gardeners with Ph.D.'s in horticulture--you don't often find both in the same person. And I'm not even sure that the formal education is usually *required* for the job; people probably make this demand unthinkingly most of the time, and it selects out huge numbers of perfectly qualified Perl programmers for no good reason in many cases. > I'm not sure what the best solutions might be: increase the talent > pool, increase the advertising, increase the expectation of pay for > somebody knowledgeable in Perl, or something else entirely. I think the first step would be increasing advertising (on sites other than RentACoder-types) to see what happens. Another "solution" is helping employers to become more comfortable with telecommuting and part-time work, if they aren't finding people locally. I don't know what that educating/comforting process would be like. It seems so obviously advantageous to all parties, to me. -- Carolyn Ray, Ph.D. www.supersaturated.com The mind is a terrible thing. From tkil at scrye.com Wed Sep 22 13:56:06 2010 From: tkil at scrye.com (Anthony Foiani) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:56:06 -0600 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> (Randal L. Schwartz's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:19:08 -0700") References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes: > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the > greater LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill > mid-level Perl hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They > both said "it's getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. I'm not entirely up to date on things, but I've seen the "Desperate Perl Hacker" meme show up a couple of times lately, e.g., http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/07/21/DPH I agree with others that point out more languages in the same basic space, some of which are considered "sexier" than Perl (or, at least, more up-to-date). There's also the fact that, whether for good reason or no, Perl 6 is taking most of a decade to come out; as Menolly mentioned, that's eons in tech business. That contributes to Perl seeming out of date, regardless of the fact that Perl 5 is still evolving, improving, and getting regular releases. Myself, I've spent most of the last 5 years doing C++ and Java. :-/ One other factor that might influence the availability of Perl programmers is an overall decline in programmers brought up in the command-line culture. Most programmers trained after about 1990-1995 likely grew up in IDEs, not on the command line. Without that culture, and with limited support for Perl in most IDEs, I wouldn't be surprised to find that younger programmers would trend away from Perl. t. From rkleeman at energoncube.net Wed Sep 22 15:49:53 2010 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:49:53 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perl Mongers, Monday is favored, but Sunday is the only possible day for a few folks. If we do it on Sunday, is there anybody who will not be able to make it? (Note: I haven't confirmed Sunday yet, just measuring interest.) On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > Good news everyone! ?Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and > he's willing to give a talk. ?He lists two possible dates for his > talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus > Day). ?Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the > date that works best. > > Once we have that figured out, we'll figure which talk might be of > most interest. ?You can look over the entire list here: > http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/. ?Think about what you'd like, > maybe discuss it with the list, but hold off on voting until after > we've figured out the date. > > ?-- Bob > From menolly at mib.org Wed Sep 22 15:52:18 2010 From: menolly at mib.org (Menolly) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Depends on what time Sunday. On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Bob Kleemann wrote: > Perl Mongers, > > Monday is favored, but Sunday is the only possible day for a few > folks. If we do it on Sunday, is there anybody who will not be able > to make it? > > (Note: I haven't confirmed Sunday yet, just measuring interest.) > > On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Bob Kleemann wrote: >> Good news everyone! ?Damian Conway is returning to San Diego soon, and >> he's willing to give a talk. ?He lists two possible dates for his >> talk, Sunday, October 10 (10-10-10), or Monday, October 11 (Columbus >> Day). ?Tell me which date works better for you, and we'll book the >> date that works best. >> >> Once we have that figured out, we'll figure which talk might be of >> most interest. ?You can look over the entire list here: >> http://damian.conway.org/Seminars/. ?Think about what you'd like, >> maybe discuss it with the list, but hold off on voting until after >> we've figured out the date. >> >> ?-- Bob >> > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -- menolly at mib.org http://www.livejournal.com/~nolly/ On that day, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" And then will I declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me you evildoers." -- Matt 7:20-23, RSV From rlssdpm at schnapp.org Wed Sep 22 16:06:20 2010 From: rlssdpm at schnapp.org (Russ Schnapp) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:06:20 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: <4BBBAF6D.2@schnapp.org> References: <4BBBAF6D.2@schnapp.org> Message-ID: <4C9A8BEC.6080003@schnapp.org> On 9/22/2010 3:49 PM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > Perl Mongers, > > Monday is favored, but Sunday is the only possible day for a few > folks. If we do it on Sunday, is there anybody who will not be able > to make it? > > (Note: I haven't confirmed Sunday yet, just measuring interest.) That depends on the time of day. I can make evening (after 6), but not afternoon. From mark.schoonover at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 16:09:55 2010 From: mark.schoonover at gmail.com (Mark Schoonover) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:09:55 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Good news everyone! In-Reply-To: <4C9A8BEC.6080003@schnapp.org> References: <4BBBAF6D.2@schnapp.org> <4C9A8BEC.6080003@schnapp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Russ Schnapp wrote: > On 9/22/2010 3:49 PM, Bob Kleemann wrote: >> Perl Mongers, >> >> Monday is favored, but Sunday is the only possible day for a few >> folks. ?If we do it on Sunday, is there anybody who will not be able >> to make it? >> >> (Note: ?I haven't confirmed Sunday yet, just measuring interest.) > > That depends on the time of day. ?I can make evening (after 6), but not > afternoon. Same with me, evenings both days. Mark Schoonover RUSA #5251 http://surlyrando.blogspot.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/markschoonover Cell: 619-368-0099 From manuel at themusiczone.net Thu Sep 23 14:18:10 2010 From: manuel at themusiczone.net (Manuel S.) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:18:10 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: I work in San Diego for DrJays.com and we are actively looking for mid/senior level Perl developers to work on our ERP system. When I took 'Intro to Computer Programming' they were teaching Perl. Now, it seems, Java is the common place language to teach for introduction and students are going out into the working world with this under their belt. -- Manuel On Sep 22, 2010, at 11:19 AM, merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote: > > Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater > LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl > hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). They both said "it's > getting *very* hard to find people." > > Now, I'm really curious. Why is this? > > Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? > > As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? > > Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? > > Or something else entirely? > > By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. I'm just > trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious > about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since > I'm also working here for a while. > > (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if > you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) > > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Sep 23 14:15:05 2010 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:15:05 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: (Manuel S.'s message of "Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:18:10 -0700") References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Manuel" == Manuel S writes: Manuel> I work in San Diego for DrJays.com and we are actively looking Manuel> for mid/senior level Perl developers to work on our ERP Manuel> system. When I took 'Intro to Computer Manuel> Programming' they were teaching Perl. Now, it seems, Java is the Manuel> common place language to teach for introduction and students are Manuel> going out into the working world with this under their belt. See... and that's what's confusing me. I see people say they need jobs so badly they moved *out* of SD, and then you come along and say "we need people". So it must also be that the skillsets are wrong, or a mismatch in pay-for-experience. Any thoughts on that? Or is it just that recruiters aren't speaking in areas that potential recruits are listening? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From rkleeman at energoncube.net Thu Sep 23 14:31:47 2010 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:31:47 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: I believe many are looking in the wrong places. On occasion, I will be contacted about somebody looking to hire for a position, but those requests are very sporadic, and seldom by the same person twice. I don't know how many people have responded to the emails I've forwarded, so it's possible recruiters may think this is a dry well (and not come back). Maybe advertising needs to hit up the recruiters to inform them that the market is not dry. Perhaps a new avenue to explore: What are the recruiters seeing? Is there really a shortage of Perl hiring out there, or do they not know how to find us? On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Manuel" == Manuel S writes: > > Manuel> I work in San Diego for DrJays.com and we are actively looking > Manuel> for mid/senior level Perl developers to work on our ERP > Manuel> system. When I took 'Intro to Computer > Manuel> Programming' they were teaching Perl. Now, it seems, Java is the > Manuel> common place language to teach for introduction and students are > Manuel> going out into the working world with this under their belt. > > See... and that's what's confusing me. ?I see people say they need jobs > so badly they moved *out* of SD, and then you come along and say "we > need people". > > So it must also be that the skillsets are wrong, or a mismatch in > pay-for-experience. ?Any thoughts on that? > > Or is it just that recruiters aren't speaking in areas that potential > recruits are listening? > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > From manuel at themusiczone.net Thu Sep 23 14:44:14 2010 From: manuel at themusiczone.net (Manuel S.) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:44:14 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <8FAFFF7B-755E-413D-AEAE-F87863A1E3A1@themusiczone.net> From the interviewing I have done, there is a lack of talent with a strong skillset (especially in OOPerl), who are knowledgable about enterprise application design, and who are capable of working with others in a team programming environment. I wonder if there has recently been an uptick in companies locally here in SD who need Perl developers? It used to be there were few. -- Manuel On Sep 23, 2010, at 2:15 PM, merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote: >>>>>> "Manuel" == Manuel S writes: > > Manuel> I work in San Diego for DrJays.com and we are actively looking > Manuel> for mid/senior level Perl developers to work on our ERP > Manuel> system. When I took 'Intro to Computer > Manuel> Programming' they were teaching Perl. Now, it seems, Java is the > Manuel> common place language to teach for introduction and students are > Manuel> going out into the working world with this under their belt. > > See... and that's what's confusing me. I see people say they need jobs > so badly they moved *out* of SD, and then you come along and say "we > need people". > > So it must also be that the skillsets are wrong, or a mismatch in > pay-for-experience. Any thoughts on that? > > Or is it just that recruiters aren't speaking in areas that potential > recruits are listening? > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From elspicyjack at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 14:51:32 2010 From: elspicyjack at gmail.com (Brian Manning) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:51:32 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Bob Kleemann wrote: > Maybe advertising needs to hit up the recruiters > to inform them that the market is not dry. Whose advertising? Individual company's advertising departments, or The Perl Foundation? From mark.schoonover at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 18:11:31 2010 From: mark.schoonover at gmail.com (Mark Schoonover) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:11:31 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Brian Manning wrote: > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Bob Kleemann wrote: >> Maybe advertising needs to hit up the recruiters >> to inform them that the market is not dry. > > Whose advertising? ?Individual company's advertising departments, or > The Perl Foundation? Just ran across this on CL looking for someone with Perl experience. http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/sof/1970070726.html When I was looking for a new job about 3-4 years ago, I couldn't find much local either. One question I have for those people that are conducting interviews, how are you interviewing a candidate? One of the things I ran into was technical folks conducting interviews and asking questions that would require experience with the systems at the interviewer's company. This happened quite frequently and was discouraging because it makes the interviewee look like they don't understand Perl. I can see a company coming to the conclusion that the talent pool for Perl programmers is virtually nonexistent so they decide to change their language of choice to Java/C#/.NET because the pool of candidates is so large. I think the pool of Perl candidates is the same size as those previous languages. Anyway, I still code in Perl to keep things sharp, but I must admit, it's not everyday I use Perl. Mark Schoonover RUSA #5251 http://surlyrando.blogspot.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/markschoonover Cell: 619-368-0099 From christopher.p.hart at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 19:50:42 2010 From: christopher.p.hart at gmail.com (Christopher Hart) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:50:42 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86zkv8w49y.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: >> So it must also be that the skillsets are wrong, or a mismatch in >> pay-for-experience. Any thoughts on that? I actually submitted my resume to Dr.Jays.com (before leaving SD) based on Manny's suggestion, and so i believe the above to be the case. :S On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Manuel" == Manuel S writes: > > Manuel> I work in San Diego for DrJays.com and we are actively looking > Manuel> for mid/senior level Perl developers to work on our ERP > Manuel> system. When I took 'Intro to Computer > Manuel> Programming' they were teaching Perl. Now, it seems, Java is the > Manuel> common place language to teach for introduction and students are > Manuel> going out into the working world with this under their belt. > > See... and that's what's confusing me. I see people say they need jobs > so badly they moved *out* of SD, and then you come along and say "we > need people". > > So it must also be that the skillsets are wrong, or a mismatch in > pay-for-experience. Any thoughts on that? > > Or is it just that recruiters aren't speaking in areas that potential > recruits are listening? > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside > discussion > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -- Respectfully, Chris Hart Developer / System Administrator Insuremonkey.com 2080 E. Flamingo, Suite 223 Las Vegas, NV 89119 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gautam.dey77 at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 21:01:35 2010 From: gautam.dey77 at gmail.com (Gautam Dey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:01:35 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: Yeah, the company I'm in is rewriting everything in Java from Perl. It was because the Senior Designer thought it would be easier to find good Java developers, then Perl developers. Gautam. 2010/9/22 Jarrod Overson : > Not sure about other elsewhere, but my company was a perl shop for about 8 > years but started migrating the vast majority of its code to java about 2 > years ago due to the manic ramblings of a man selling scrum. > I haven't been in the job market for about 4 years, but it wasn't promising > for perl when I was. > -- > Jarrod. > On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Randal L. Schwartz > wrote: >> >> Twice in the last two days, two different organizations in the greater >> LA area approached me to help them find folks to fill mid-level Perl >> hacking slots (varying between IT and webdev). ?They both said "it's >> getting *very* hard to find people." >> >> Now, I'm really curious. ?Why is this? >> >> Is it a supply problem, or a demand problem, or both? >> >> As in, are there fewer Perl programmers here but the same demand? >> >> Or the same (or more) Perl programmers here, but even more demand? >> >> Or something else entirely? >> >> By the way... I'm not trying to make a buck out of this. ?I'm just >> trying to help people who ask me to help, and I'm also genuinely curious >> about the state of hiring in the Perl community, particulary in LA since >> I'm also working here for a while. >> >> (I'll also be sending this message to the other local PM groups, so if >> you see it multiple times, I'm sorry.) >> >> >> -- >> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 >> 0095 >> >> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. >> See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside >> discussion >> _______________________________________________ >> San-Diego-pm mailing list >> San-Diego-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > > > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Sep 23 21:04:04 2010 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:04:04 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: (Gautam Dey's message of "Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:01:35 -0700") References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Gautam" == Gautam Dey writes: Gautam> Yeah, the company I'm in is rewriting everything in Java from Perl. It Gautam> was because the Senior Designer thought it would be easier to find Gautam> good Java developers, then Perl developers. This is exactly what I'm hoping to avoid, because it's a step backward for humanity. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From chris_radcliff at mac.com Fri Sep 24 09:40:37 2010 From: chris_radcliff at mac.com (Chris Radcliff) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:40:37 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: On Sep 23, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > Gautam> Yeah, the company I'm in is rewriting everything in Java from Perl. It > Gautam> was because the Senior Designer thought it would be easier to find > Gautam> good Java developers, then Perl developers. > > This is exactly what I'm hoping to avoid, because it's a step backward > for humanity. I work for a company that's doing the opposite. We have a few older systems written in other languages, but we're migrating them to Perl because our engineers all know it and use it regularly. That said, I do think Perl hasn't kept up with some of "hot stuff" languages like Python and Ruby in terms of frameworks, which are the first line of contact for many new programmers. Want to use GAE? Learn Python or (*shudder*) Java. Wonder what this Rails business is about? Learn Ruby. Wordpress plugins? PHP. The language itself is becoming a commodity item, chosen as a side effect of the application environment. ~chris From pm at bionikchickens.com Fri Sep 24 09:48:37 2010 From: pm at bionikchickens.com (Nicholas Wehr) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 09:48:37 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: I've also heard recently that companies doing M&A diligence will put a higher valuation on Java (specifically) than on a "scripting language". I have written, and continue to write, huge systems in Perl and find this statement to be disturbing to the core of my being. If this is true, it may impact our choice of platform and those of other companies who have acquisition in mind as a real exit strategy. Of course I have no evidence to support this statement; I was hoping somebody here could comment on the validity of this claim? regards, -nw On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Chris Radcliff wrote: > On Sep 23, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > > Gautam> Yeah, the company I'm in is rewriting everything in Java from > Perl. It > > Gautam> was because the Senior Designer thought it would be easier to > find > > Gautam> good Java developers, then Perl developers. > > > > This is exactly what I'm hoping to avoid, because it's a step backward > > for humanity. > > I work for a company that's doing the opposite. We have a few older systems > written in other languages, but we're migrating them to Perl because our > engineers all know it and use it regularly. > > That said, I do think Perl hasn't kept up with some of "hot stuff" > languages like Python and Ruby in terms of frameworks, which are the first > line of contact for many new programmers. Want to use GAE? Learn Python or > (*shudder*) Java. Wonder what this Rails business is about? Learn Ruby. > Wordpress plugins? PHP. The language itself is becoming a commodity item, > chosen as a side effect of the application environment. > > ~chris > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tanicholson at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 10:00:02 2010 From: tanicholson at gmail.com (Thomas Nicholson) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:00:02 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <2235184B-681C-4B76-AD0E-D9F1D0D5C468@gmail.com> Our enterprise standard is Java but we have lots of Perl code holding it together. But since Java has the most *support* I see more people using Java supported languages like Jython, jRuby, Groovy, CFscript, etc. This allows them to still *script* while living in a Java enterprise. So far as I know Perl doesn't allow that and with a global enterprise keeping standard versions of Perl across all the different platforms is difficult. Thomas Nicholson | Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2010, at 9:40 AM, Chris Radcliff wrote: > On Sep 23, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >> Gautam> Yeah, the company I'm in is rewriting everything in Java from Perl. It >> Gautam> was because the Senior Designer thought it would be easier to find >> Gautam> good Java developers, then Perl developers. >> >> This is exactly what I'm hoping to avoid, because it's a step backward >> for humanity. > > I work for a company that's doing the opposite. We have a few older systems written in other languages, but we're migrating them to Perl because our engineers all know it and use it regularly. > > That said, I do think Perl hasn't kept up with some of "hot stuff" languages like Python and Ruby in terms of frameworks, which are the first line of contact for many new programmers. Want to use GAE? Learn Python or (*shudder*) Java. Wonder what this Rails business is about? Learn Ruby. Wordpress plugins? PHP. The language itself is becoming a commodity item, chosen as a side effect of the application environment. > > ~chris > _______________________________________________ > San-Diego-pm mailing list > San-Diego-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm From tamp4xstealth at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 11:05:10 2010 From: tamp4xstealth at yahoo.com (r l) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <166411.82459.qm@web52006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Java can scale with more ease and has better memory sharing/threading support. Take in the case where you have to write a multithreaded realtime server (one thread per incoming client) that uses one DBI connection amongst many detached threads ... it is impossible with out doing all your SQL queries in the initial process or forking. Sure you can use a "pool" but you run into the same problem again once you peak the pool. Java does have its limitation too, that is when you go the erlang route.... ________________________________ From: Nicholas Wehr To: Chris Radcliff Cc: san-diego-pm at mail.pm.org Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 9:48:37 AM Subject: Re: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled I've also heard recently that companies doing M&A diligence will put a higher valuation on Java (specifically) than on a "scripting language". I have written, and continue to write, huge systems in Perl and find this statement to be disturbing to the core of my being. If this is true, it may impact our choice of platform and those of other companies who have acquisition in mind as a real exit strategy. Of course I have no evidence to support this statement; I was hoping somebody here could comment on the validity of this claim? regards, -nw On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Chris Radcliff wrote: On Sep 23, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >> Gautam> Yeah, the company I'm in is rewriting everything in Java from Perl. It >> Gautam> was because the Senior Designer thought it would be easier to find >> Gautam> good Java developers, then Perl developers. >> >> This is exactly what I'm hoping to avoid, because it's a step backward >> for humanity. > >I work for a company that's doing the opposite. We have a few older systems >written in other languages, but we're migrating them to Perl because our >engineers all know it and use it regularly. > >That said, I do think Perl hasn't kept up with some of "hot stuff" languages >like Python and Ruby in terms of frameworks, which are the first line of contact >for many new programmers. Want to use GAE? Learn Python or (*shudder*) Java. >Wonder what this Rails business is about? Learn Ruby. Wordpress plugins? PHP. >The language itself is becoming a commodity item, chosen as a side effect of the >application environment. > >~chris > >_______________________________________________ >San-Diego-pm mailing list >San-Diego-pm at pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pm at bionikchickens.com Fri Sep 24 11:19:03 2010 From: pm at bionikchickens.com (Nicholas Wehr) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:19:03 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: <166411.82459.qm@web52006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <166411.82459.qm@web52006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: interesting comment, though way off topic. we're discussing why jobs are going unfulfilled - I'm certain it's not because of your multithreaded issue. of course you will find pros and cons of each language, including perl. but really - why do you think its so hard to find skilled people in san diego? -nw On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:05 AM, r l wrote: > Java can scale with more ease and has better memory sharing/threading > support. Take in the case where you have to write a multithreaded realtime > server (one thread per incoming client) that uses one DBI connection amongst > many detached threads ... it is impossible with out doing all your SQL > queries in the initial process or forking. Sure you can use a "pool" but you > run into the same problem again once you peak the pool. Java does have its > limitation too, that is when you go the erlang route.... > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Nicholas Wehr > *To:* Chris Radcliff > *Cc:* san-diego-pm at mail.pm.org > *Sent:* Fri, September 24, 2010 9:48:37 AM > *Subject:* Re: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled > > I've also heard recently that companies doing M&A diligence will put a > higher valuation on Java (specifically) than on a "scripting language". I > have written, and continue to write, huge systems in Perl and find this > statement to be disturbing to the core of my being. If this is true, it may > impact our choice of platform and those of other companies who have > acquisition in mind as a real exit strategy. > > Of course I have no evidence to support this statement; I was hoping > somebody here could comment on the validity of this claim? > > regards, > -nw > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Chris Radcliff wrote: > >> On Sep 23, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >> >> > Gautam> Yeah, the company I'm in is rewriting everything in Java from >> Perl. It >> > Gautam> was because the Senior Designer thought it would be easier to >> find >> > Gautam> good Java developers, then Perl developers. >> > >> > This is exactly what I'm hoping to avoid, because it's a step backward >> > for humanity. >> >> I work for a company that's doing the opposite. We have a few older >> systems written in other languages, but we're migrating them to Perl because >> our engineers all know it and use it regularly. >> >> That said, I do think Perl hasn't kept up with some of "hot stuff" >> languages like Python and Ruby in terms of frameworks, which are the first >> line of contact for many new programmers. Want to use GAE? Learn Python or >> (*shudder*) Java. Wonder what this Rails business is about? Learn Ruby. >> Wordpress plugins? PHP. The language itself is becoming a commodity item, >> chosen as a side effect of the application environment. >> >> ~chris >> _______________________________________________ >> San-Diego-pm mailing list >> San-Diego-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brick at fastpack.com Fri Sep 24 11:40:28 2010 From: brick at fastpack.com (Brick Robbins) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 11:40:28 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] jobs available, going unfulfilled In-Reply-To: References: <86tylh4p5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <86wrqbvlcb.fsf@red.stonehenge.com> <166411.82459.qm@web52006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2010/9/24 Nicholas Wehr : > but really - why do you think its so hard to find skilled people in > san diego? Because so many places pay in "sunshine dollars."' From joel at fentin.com Sun Sep 26 10:42:28 2010 From: joel at fentin.com (Joel Fentin) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 10:42:28 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] An old yet persistent problem Message-ID: <4C9F8604.40406@fentin.com> The browser makers could make this easy but they won't. I have needed this for years. Here is the current version of the need: After some .JPG files swap names, I want the user to reload the page from the server. Not from the cache. Elsewise, the pictures appear in the wrong places. I've been rummaging Stack Overflow and in plenty of other places, looking for advice. None of it works for me. 1. The most typical advice is along the lines of: No combination of these works for me. 2. The one and only thing that works well is to press the F5 button after the page loads. I have not seen an example of this in the Perl code. 3. Perhaps there is some javascript that would do the job. I would need it to do something like: xxx.pl?ID=1234. Not a link nor a button - but executed in and at the end of the Perl script. If the cure is to work in only one browser, I prefer Firefox. -- Joel Fentin tel: 760-749-8863 Biz Website: http://fentin.com Personal Website: http://fentin.com/me From tobert at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 11:35:21 2010 From: tobert at gmail.com (Al Tobey) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 11:35:21 -0700 Subject: [San-Diego-pm] An old yet persistent problem In-Reply-To: <4C9F8604.40406@fentin.com> References: <4C9F8604.40406@fentin.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Joel Fentin wrote: > The browser makers could make this easy but they won't. > > I have needed this for years. Here is the current version of the need: > After some .JPG files swap names, I want the user to reload the page from > the server. Not from the cache. Elsewise, the pictures appear in the wrong > places. > > I've been rummaging Stack Overflow and in plenty of other places, looking > for advice. None of it works for me. > > 1. The most typical advice is along the lines of: > > > > > > > No combination of these works for me. > > 2. The one and only thing that works well is to press the F5 button after > the page loads. I have not seen an example of this in the Perl code. > > 3. Perhaps there is some javascript that would do the job. I would need it > to do something like: xxx.pl?ID=1234. Not a link nor a button - but > executed in and at the end of the Perl script. > > If the cure is to work in only one browser, I prefer Firefox. > Have you tried Etags? http://developer.yahoo.com/performance/rules.html <- great stuff in there in general Maybe you can add a version string to the image URL and get most of what you want. I haven't seen it used for images but it's used quite a bit for javascript. This can even point at a regular file and Apache will eat the query. If you change the version in your HTML, it'll bypass your browser cache and come back to the server even if the filename is the same - at least for