From cabney at ucsd.edu Wed Jun 2 16:15:22 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? Message-ID: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> Maybe my keywords suck and this is a known issue? Running this script on a Mac OSX gives very unexpected results: =8<============ #! /usr/bin/perl -w # spawn some kids and check up on them periodically without actually # waiting to harvest them... my ( $pid, @jobs, $n ); $|++; for (0..2) { $pid = fork(); last if $pid == 0; push @jobs, $pid; } if ( @jobs && $pid != 0 ) { # parental responsibilities $SIG{CHLD} = 'IGNORE'; $n = kill 0, @jobs; print "jobs: @jobs\n"; while ( 0 < $n ) { print "we have $n children, Houston\n"; sleep 2; $n = kill 0, @jobs; } exit 0; } else { my $slp = int rand 20; print "child to sleep $slp second(s)\n"; sleep int rand 20; print "\nmama, I'm so gone!!!\n"; exit 0; =8<============ It's rand()s behavior on the Mac I'm concerned about. from uname: Darwin odonata.ucsd.edu 7.3.0 Darwin Kernel Version 7.3.0: Fri Mar 5 14:22:55 PST 2004; root:xnu/xnu-517.3.15.obj~4/RELEASE_PPC Power Macintosh powerpc perl --version: This is perl, v5.8.1-RC3 built for darwin-thread-multi-2level (with 1 registered patch, see perl -V for more detail) To be explicit: each child gets the same value returned from rand. Yours, Charles -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040602/fe088058/attachment.bin From cabney at ucsd.edu Wed Jun 2 16:25:44 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] close the if block, sorry (NT) Message-ID: <1086211544.14407.538.camel@vespa> -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040602/37c461a6/attachment.bin From mike at casinghino.com Thu Jun 3 01:16:17 2004 From: mike at casinghino.com (Michael Casinghino) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> Message-ID: <20040603061617.GA8145@buoy.casinghino.com> This indeed looks like a perl bug. The code runs fine on my linux box, and I was able to reproduce the problem on OSX 10.3. Adding an srand() call before rand() call in the child code seems to fix it. I ran it under ktrace (which is like a systrace for osx) like this: ktrace -idt wcusin /usr/bin/perl trand.pl kdump -f ktrace.out | less In my version with the srand call in it, you can definitely see srand working (it starts like OPEN("/dev/urandom")). In the version without it, it's either not being called or it functions differently. The ktrace of a child (without the explicit srand in it) looks like this: (I added the getpid call to verify that the process id was different) 1473 perl CALL getpid 1473 perl RET getpid 1473/0x5c1 1473 perl CALL fstat(0x1,0xbffff540) 1473 perl RET fstat 0 1473 perl CALL ioctl(0x1,FIODTYPE,0xbffff590) 1473 perl RET ioctl 0 1473 perl CALL write(0x1,0x6000,0x1b) 1473 perl GIO fd 1 wrote 27 bytes "child to sleep 3 second(s) " 1473 perl RET write 27/0x1b 1473 perl CALL write(0x1,0x6000,0x1) 1473 perl GIO fd 1 wrote 1 byte " " 1473 perl RET write 1 1473 perl CALL write(0x1,0x6000,0x15) 1473 perl GIO fd 1 wrote 21 bytes "mama, I'm so gone!!! " 1473 perl RET write 21/0x15 1473 perl CALL exit(0) So, somehow, in forked processes on osx, the "PL_srand_called" variable check is failing. (I think that fstat/ioctl business is doing the $|++ on the dup'd fd.) If you have the XTools from Apple installed, you could download the latest version (5.8.4), compile it locally, and run with that to see if it's been fixed. I was going to do this, but the XTools download was too *SLOW*. This is an interesting problem. -Mike On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 02:15:22PM -0700, C. Abney wrote: > Maybe my keywords suck and this is a known issue? > > Running this script on a Mac OSX gives very unexpected results: > > =8<============ > #! /usr/bin/perl -w > # spawn some kids and check up on them periodically without actually > # waiting to harvest them... > > my ( $pid, @jobs, $n ); > > $|++; > > for (0..2) > { > $pid = fork(); > last if $pid == 0; > push @jobs, $pid; > } > > if ( @jobs && $pid != 0 ) { > # parental responsibilities > $SIG{CHLD} = 'IGNORE'; > $n = kill 0, @jobs; > > print "jobs: @jobs\n"; > > while ( 0 < $n ) { > print "we have $n children, Houston\n"; > sleep 2; > $n = kill 0, @jobs; > } > exit 0; > } else { > my $slp = int rand 20; > > > print "child to sleep $slp second(s)\n"; > sleep int rand 20; > > print "\nmama, I'm so gone!!!\n"; > exit 0; > =8<============ > > It's rand()s behavior on the Mac I'm concerned about. > > from uname: > Darwin odonata.ucsd.edu 7.3.0 Darwin Kernel Version 7.3.0: Fri Mar 5 > 14:22:55 PST 2004; root:xnu/xnu-517.3.15.obj~4/RELEASE_PPC Power > Macintosh powerpc > > perl --version: > This is perl, v5.8.1-RC3 built for darwin-thread-multi-2level > (with 1 registered patch, see perl -V for more detail) > > To be explicit: each child gets the same value returned from rand. > > Yours, > > Charles > -- > Charles Abney > Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 > UCSD School of Medicine > 9500 Gilman Dr. > La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 > _______________________________________________ > San-diego-pm mailing list > San-diego-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Jun 3 09:25:44 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> Message-ID: <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "C" == C Abney writes: C> Maybe my keywords suck and this is a known issue? C> Running this script on a Mac OSX gives very unexpected results: You can illustrate this well known bug with: perl -le 'print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print rand; print rand' You'll get one number from the first rand call (which sets the seed), and then the same number from all remaining calls to rand. The solution is well known... when you fork, you need to srand manually in the child. The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to Perl. I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From cabney at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 3 09:52:11 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <1086274331.22027.1.camel@vespa> It's platform specific, however... I get completely different behavior on Sun/sparc or Linux/P4. Yours, Charles On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 07:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "C" == C Abney writes: > > C> Maybe my keywords suck and this is a known issue? > C> Running this script on a Mac OSX gives very unexpected results: > > You can illustrate this well known bug with: > > perl -le 'print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print rand; print rand' > > You'll get one number from the first rand call (which sets the seed), > and then the same number from all remaining calls to rand. > > The solution is well known... when you fork, you need to srand manually > in the child. > > The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to Perl. > I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040603/b9d597a4/attachment.bin From cabney at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 3 09:54:52 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <20040603061617.GA8145@buoy.casinghino.com> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <20040603061617.GA8145@buoy.casinghino.com> Message-ID: <1086274492.22027.4.camel@vespa> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 23:16, Michael Casinghino wrote: > This indeed looks like a perl bug. The code runs fine on my linux box, > and I was able to reproduce the problem on OSX 10.3. Adding an srand() > call before rand() call in the child code seems to fix it. What happens if you try the equivalent on either solaris or linux? Yours, Charles -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040603/e461ae5f/attachment.bin From cabney at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 3 10:17:37 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <1086275857.22027.11.camel@vespa> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 07:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to Perl. > I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. I was told to upgrade to Perl 5.8.4. I think it might be something specific to some *BSD related thing: even an older version of Perl works fine on a Sun machine (double checks, yup) Yours, Charles -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040603/4c5590a5/attachment.bin From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Jun 3 10:22:50 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <1086275857.22027.11.camel@vespa> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1086275857.22027.11.camel@vespa> Message-ID: <864qpsy8c5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "C" == C Abney writes: C> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 07:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >> >> The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to Perl. >> I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. C> I was told to upgrade to Perl 5.8.4. I think it might be something C> specific to some *BSD related thing: even an older version of Perl C> works fine on a Sun machine (double checks, yup) No, I performed my test with 5.8.4 (even post 5.8.4 bleedperl). -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From cabney at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 3 10:28:17 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <864qpsy8c5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1086275857.22027.11.camel@vespa> <864qpsy8c5.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <1086276497.21858.19.camel@vespa> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 08:22, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "C" == C Abney writes: > C> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 07:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >> > >> The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to Perl. > >> I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. > > C> I was told to upgrade to Perl 5.8.4. I think it might be something > C> specific to some *BSD related thing: even an older version of Perl > C> works fine on a Sun machine (double checks, yup) > > No, I performed my test with 5.8.4 (even post 5.8.4 bleedperl). Maybe porters should know this: I was told srand() is delayed until rand() is called in the 'fixed' version. Yours, Charles -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040603/bc13e0bd/attachment.bin From cabney at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 3 10:53:21 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] [Fwd: Re: [perl #30028] rand broken on Mac OSX (G5), was Re: problem with rand on OSX] Message-ID: <1086278001.21858.24.camel@vespa> fyi, -----Forwarded Message----- From: Dominic Dunlop To: perl5-porters@perl.org Cc: C. Abney (via RT) Subject: Re: [perl #30028] rand broken on Mac OSX (G5), was Re: problem with rand on OSX Date: 03 Jun 2004 16:59:11 +0200 Summary: fixed in 5.8.4. On 3 Jun 2004, at 04:21, C. Abney (via RT) wrote: > #! /usr/bin/perl -w > > use strict; > > my @jobs; > > for (0..2) > { > defined( my $pid = fork() ) or die "my BABY!!!";; > last if $pid == 0; > push @jobs, $pid; > } > > if ( 3 == @jobs ) { > $SIG{CHLD} = 'IGNORE'; > sleep 1; > } else { > my $slp = int rand 20; > > print "child gets $slp second(s)\n"; > exit 0; > } > Well, on my Mac OS 10.3.4 (with a G3 processor) that indeed gives child gets 6 second(s) child gets 6 second(s) child gets 6 second(s) (or similar) with perl5.8.1rc3 (as shipped with Mac OS) or with a freshly-built perl5.8.1. Given that the random number seed is stored in memory that gets cloned from the parent to each child, and each child applies the same algorithm to the seed to get the next random number, this is the behaviour I'd expect. However, I get child gets 19 second(s) child gets 11 second(s) child gets 0 second(s) (or similar) with perl5.8.4, the current stable release, and with 5.9.2 on the development track. Both perls are using the same random number generator: $ perl '-V:rand.*' # either perl version randbits='48' randfunc='drand48' random_r_proto='0' randseedtype='long' What seems to have changed is where the random number generator seed gets set: in 5.8.1, it appears to be in the parent before any call to rand(), so each child gets the same seed; in 5.8.4 the setting seems to be delayed until the first use of rand() -- so each child gets a different seed. Adding a line rand; near the top of the script to force the setting of the seed in the parent brings back the 5.8.1 behaviour. I can't see a patch between 5.8.1 and 5.8.4 which claims to have anything to do with random numbers so I don't know what changed the behaviour. Can anybody shed any light? However, your solution is to upgrade to 5.8.4. > Perlbug is not set up on that machine It's delivered with Mac OS X. You can usually get it to do something somewhat useful -- like save a report to a file for later mailing by some other means -- with command line options. Failing that, please include the output of perl -V in reports. Thanks. -- Dominic Dunlop -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040603/2456edd4/attachment.bin From chris_radcliff at mac.com Thu Jun 3 11:39:24 2004 From: chris_radcliff at mac.com (Chris Radcliff) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <1086274331.22027.1.camel@vespa> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1086274331.22027.1.camel@vespa> Message-ID: <9237EE0B-B57C-11D8-93A8-00039301A6E2@mac.com> Is it possible that Randal's example is different from the one Charles presented? For instance, Charles doesn't call rand() before forking, so delaying srand() until the rand() call in 5.8.4 would mean each child called srand() separately. Just a thought, based solely on the thread. I don't know a fork() from a spoon() otherwise. Cheers, ~c On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:52 AM, C. Abney wrote: > It's platform specific, however... I get completely different behavior > on Sun/sparc or Linux/P4. >> You can illustrate this well known bug with: >> >> perl -le 'print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print >> rand; fork or exit print rand; print rand' >> >> The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to >> Perl. >> I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. From cabney at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 3 12:09:26 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <9237EE0B-B57C-11D8-93A8-00039301A6E2@mac.com> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1086274331.22027.1.camel@vespa> <9237EE0B-B57C-11D8-93A8-00039301A6E2@mac.com> Message-ID: <1086282566.21863.30.camel@vespa> That's right... should have looked. my bad. Yours, Charles On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 09:39, Chris Radcliff wrote: > Is it possible that Randal's example is different from the one Charles > presented? For instance, Charles doesn't call rand() before forking, so > delaying srand() until the rand() call in 5.8.4 would mean each child > called srand() separately. > > Just a thought, based solely on the thread. I don't know a fork() from > a spoon() otherwise. > > Cheers, > ~c > > On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:52 AM, C. Abney wrote: > > > It's platform specific, however... I get completely different behavior > > on Sun/sparc or Linux/P4. > > >> You can illustrate this well known bug with: > >> > >> perl -le 'print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print > >> rand; fork or exit print rand; print rand' > >> > >> The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to > >> Perl. > >> I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. > -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040603/c8c545c9/attachment.bin From cabney at ucsd.edu Thu Jun 3 12:22:44 2004 From: cabney at ucsd.edu (C. Abney) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] another bug in perl: rand/OSX? In-Reply-To: <9237EE0B-B57C-11D8-93A8-00039301A6E2@mac.com> References: <1086210922.14581.534.camel@vespa> <86k6yoyazb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <1086274331.22027.1.camel@vespa> <9237EE0B-B57C-11D8-93A8-00039301A6E2@mac.com> Message-ID: <1086283364.22027.39.camel@vespa> perl -le 'fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print rand; print rand' This works the bug. On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 09:39, Chris Radcliff wrote: > Is it possible that Randal's example is different from the one Charles > presented? For instance, Charles doesn't call rand() before forking, so > delaying srand() until the rand() call in 5.8.4 would mean each child > called srand() separately. > > Just a thought, based solely on the thread. I don't know a fork() from > a spoon() otherwise. > > Cheers, > ~c > > On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:52 AM, C. Abney wrote: > > > It's platform specific, however... I get completely different behavior > > on Sun/sparc or Linux/P4. > > >> You can illustrate this well known bug with: > >> > >> perl -le 'print rand; fork or exit print rand; fork or exit print > >> rand; fork or exit print rand; print rand' > >> > >> The behavior has nothing to do with OSX. It's completely generic to > >> Perl. > >> I just verified that on my OpenBSD box. > -- Charles Abney Polymorphism Research Laboratory, 0603 UCSD School of Medicine 9500 Gilman Dr. La Jolla, CA 92093-0603 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/san-diego-pm/attachments/20040603/5e7e136b/attachment.bin From rkleeman at energoncube.net Tue Jun 8 15:29:27 2004 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] Next week Message-ID: <20040608202927.GA15898@energoncube.net> Hey folks, just one week until the next Perl Mongers meeting. Next Tuesday at Callahan's in Mira Mesa. Please let me know if you think you'll make it. From paul at russellsharpe.com Sat Jun 12 12:28:46 2004 From: paul at russellsharpe.com (Paul Sharpe) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] [JOB] Website maintenance and development Message-ID: <40CB3D4E.9050105@russellsharpe.com> I'm looking for a San Diego area Perl developer/company to take over maintenance and development of 1 to 3 websites. You'll need to be *experienced* in: Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl, mod_perl, Embperl, CPAN, HTML and CSS. You'll also need to offer (or arrange) hosting and be able to specify and implement client requirements. Drop me an email if this sounds like you. Cheers, paul -- Paul Sharpe Tel: 619 523 0100 Fax: 619 523 0101 Russell Sharpe, Inc mailto:paul@russellsharpe.com 4993 Niagara Avenue, Suite 209 http://www.russellsharpe.com/ San Diego, CA 92107-3185 From joel at fentin.com Sat Jun 12 18:09:29 2004 From: joel at fentin.com (Joel Fentin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] Slightly off topic Message-ID: <40CB8D29.7070301@fentin.com> 1. The following line of code in a javascript function works in IE but bombs in FireFox. Any cure? var range = document.body.createTextRange(); 2. The following HTML displays a text field. On several PC browsers it works fine in that it lets the underlying graphic shine through. On several/all Mac browsers, the text field is white. Any cure? You can see this line of code in action with your browser at: http://fentin.com/me/ContactMe.html -- Joel Fentin tel: 760-749-8863 FAX: 760-749-8864 Contact me: http://fentin.com/me/ContactMe.html Biz: http://fentin.com Personal: http://fentin.com/me/ From joe at artlung.com Sun Jun 13 00:53:19 2004 From: joe at artlung.com (Joe Crawford) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] Slightly off topic In-Reply-To: <40CB8D29.7070301@fentin.com> References: <40CB8D29.7070301@fentin.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Joel Fentin wrote: > 1. The following line of code in a javascript function works in IE but > bombs in FireFox. Any cure? > var range = document.body.createTextRange(); that's an MSIE thing only: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/methods/createtextrange.asp "There is no public standard that applies to this method." > 2. The following HTML displays a text field. On several PC browsers it > works fine in that it lets the underlying graphic shine through. On > several/all Mac browsers, the text field is white. Any cure? > > You can see this line of code in action with your browser at: > http://fentin.com/me/ContactMe.html > > size="18" style="text-align:right; background-color:transparent; > border:none; font-size:22pt"> I've not played with that, but since you've got a background pattern could you not use background-image: and use the same background to simulate the effect? But my test page - in Safari - seems to show no backgrounds in any of these: http://lab.artlung.com/css/form-image-background/ Best, Joe -- Joe "ArtLung" Crawford AIM:artlung Phone:619-516-4550 LAMP Host Evangelist, Web Designer, Web Developer, WebSanDiego.org List Guy http://joecrawford.com/ http://lamphost.net/ http://artlung.com/ http://artlung.com/blog/ http://sandiegobloggers.com/ http://sandiegoblog.com/ http://websandiego.org/ From joel at fentin.com Sun Jun 13 23:48:00 2004 From: joel at fentin.com (Joel Fentin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] PPM help Message-ID: <40CD2E00.30507@fentin.com> Perl 8.3.809 PPM 3.1 Running on XP-pro At the PPM prompt, if I type "Help" I get a list of commands. But if I type "help prompt" or "help search", or "help " I get nothing. Am I missing something obvious? I looked in perldoc, the PPM FAQ, and also the release notes. -- Joel Fentin tel: 760-749-8863 FAX: 760-749-8864 Contact me: http://fentin.com/me/ContactMe.html Biz: http://fentin.com Personal: http://fentin.com/me/ From dgwilson at gtemail.net Mon Jun 14 12:17:36 2004 From: dgwilson at gtemail.net (Douglas Wilson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] PPM help Message-ID: <20040614171737.4B5E61D722E@ws3-3.us4.outblaze.com> > At the PPM prompt, if I type "Help" I get a list of commands. But if I > type "help prompt" or "help search", or "help " I get > nothing. That is strange. The first thing that comes up when you type 'help' at the ppm prompt is that 'ppm ' should give you help with that particular command. And that's what it does for me. There's a ppm mailing list at ActiveState, if you can't figure it out, maybe you can ask there. -Doug -- _______________________________________________ Get your free Verizonmail at www.verizonmail.com From rkleeman at energoncube.net Mon Jun 14 14:19:10 2004 From: rkleeman at energoncube.net (Bob Kleemann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] Meeting tommorow Message-ID: <20040614191910.GB7796@energoncube.net> Hey Fellow Perl Mongers! Just a reminder that there is a meeting tommorow evening, Tuesday, June 15. Callahan's in Mira Mesa is the place, 7PM is the time, and any other questions should be directed to me. Please let me know if you plan to attend so I can reserve an apporpriately sized table, and I'll see you there. From emileaben at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 01:00:00 2004 From: emileaben at yahoo.com (Emile Aben) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] offtopics Message-ID: <20040616060000.5744.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, just some follow-up on some discussions on the PM meeting tonight: The Brainfuck programming-language: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ And the Brainfuck-Perl glue has already been written: http://cpan.uwinnipeg.ca/htdocs/Acme-Brainfuck/Acme/Brainfuck.html And the BBC series about the family thats sitting on a couch most of the time is called 'The Royle Family'. It's hilarious. emile __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From joel at fentin.com Fri Jun 18 12:20:02 2004 From: joel at fentin.com (Joel Fentin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] You might find this interesting Message-ID: <40D32442.6020305@fentin.com> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm From emileaben at yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 13:33:57 2004 From: emileaben at yahoo.com (Emile Aben) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] Programming Language Popularity (was:You might find this interesting) In-Reply-To: <40D32442.6020305@fentin.com> Message-ID: <20040618183357.24943.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Joel, While these statistics maybe give a rough ranking of language popularity, I think they use a very crude method. They just measure the amount of Google-hits. There are many scenario's thinkable where this is not the same as the popularity of a programming language, for instance If the learning curve for a language is very steep, or if the documentation is not very good this will increase the relative amount of Google-hits for a language because people will relatively ask a lot more questions about the language on the Internet. A similar thing has been discussed in Perlmonks a while ago: http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=355190 Some wise comments where given there. An another statistics-page using the same crude method for OS popularity can be found here: http://srom.zgp.org/ Emile --- Joel Fentin wrote: > http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm > > _______________________________________________ > San-diego-pm mailing list > San-diego-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From joel at fentin.com Fri Jun 18 23:25:46 2004 From: joel at fentin.com (Joel Fentin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:36:24 2004 Subject: [San-diego-pm] Programming Language Popularity In-Reply-To: <20040618183357.24943.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040618183357.24943.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40D3C04A.6030609@fentin.com> Emile Aben wrote: > Hi Joel, > > While these statistics maybe give a rough ranking of > language popularity, I think they use a very crude > method. Even so, I found them interesting. * I haven't heard of ProLog in years, yet it's in the top 20. I always thought of it as a one company language to support their PCBs. * C# is the only M$ dot net language even mentioned. Although the notes at the bottom says that all basic languages have been clumped. I wish they weren't. * VB, which is no longer supported, is still rising. * Java is going down. * Python seems to be the main rising star. -- Joel Fentin tel: 760-749-8863 FAX: 760-749-8864 Contact me: http://fentin.com/me/ContactMe.html Biz: http://fentin.com Personal: http://fentin.com/me/