From scott at illogics.org  Wed Aug  1 03:49:31 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 03:49:31 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Website stuff done/Post your Perl related
	RSS	feeds!
In-Reply-To: <a35a0ab50707311445t5a65fc2ch171d8f701cfe075a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070731182357.GE27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311445t5a65fc2ch171d8f701cfe075a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070801104931.GR20474@slowass.net>

Hey everyone,

* "Planet" is now running at http://phoenix.pm.org/planet/ --
  Planet is blog aggregation software.  I want your feeds for it.
  See below.  But SEND ME YOUR FEED!
  
* The TinyWiki at http://phoenix.pm.org uses ReCaptcha now -- no 
  more silly password.  Please give the Wiki love.

* The TinyWiki RSS feeds themselves have been fixed up a bit.
  That's at http://phoenix.pm.org/rss.cgi.  It should have a
  pubDate now so sorting might work right with other readers.

Brock -- please add /home/phoenixpm/planet-phoenix-pm/cron.txt
to cron, if you don't mind.  It should run daily as the
phoenixpm user.

Re: Planet, you can subscribe to http://phoenix.pm.org/planet/rss20.xml
or http://phoenix.pm.org/planet/atom.xml, or just go view the
page in HTML whenever you're craving updates on the activities
of local Perl people.  This is the same thing they're using
at http://planet.perl.org, except instead of being interesting,
important Perl people, we're just the Phoenix Perl people.
If you blog about Perl (even 10% of the time), send me a link to
your RSS feed, or post it to the group and I'll add it so it gets
aggregated with the other ones.  If you have two feeds, I'll add
them.  Or if you have Twitter, I'll add that (since the messages
are short, I don't even care if they're Perl related).

Thanks for the flood of information from everyone.  I've added a 
bunch of it. 

This is part of my plan to move to a more "virtual" format.
Here's my vision for things (if anyone with a more human
vision wants to step up, be our guest):

* Running mostly autonomously
* Piggybacking on other area group's meetings
* Aggregating Perl related RSS feeds from local (or ex-local) members
* Encourage people to send invites to the list even for non-Perl-
  related events ("we're having a little party at my house with 
  a bunch of nerds, ya'll are welcome")
* Infrequent "official" meetings when we can get a good guest
  speaker or when it's been a while and people get the itch
  to actually isolate themselves from things other than Perl

I'd still like to get the rss.cgi script doing excerpts of the 
changes on the Wiki pages, but I'd have to do a bunch of CVS log/CVS 
diff parsing which I'm doing on another Wiki but don't feel like 
doing now.  Patches welcome though.

Comments?  Feeds for me?

-scott



On  0, Brock <awwaiid at gmail.com> wrote:
> oh yes! I forgot about PhxBUG, but certainly didn't mean to offend :)
> 
> I think I actually contradicted myself -- what I meant to say was that
> those are the existing meetings to dodge for a standalone long-running
> perlmonger meeting.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 7/31/07, Darrin Chandler <dwchandler at stilyagin.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 01:37:54PM -0400, Brock wrote:
> > > Seriously though, I've gone to several of the PLUG-dev meetings and we
> > > even had an impromptu perl meeting at one of their meetings once and
> > > it was great and we were welcomed.
> >
> > They're quite open, have a regular turnout, and have been positive about
> > pretty much any topic. Good perl-fu would be appreciated, methinks.
> >
> > > Here is a list of possibly conflicting free-software-friendly groups I
> > > know of to help you fill in N and X:
> > >
> > > first tuesday - Refresh Phoenix
> > > first thursday - PLUG DEV
> > > second monday - Ruby
> > > second thursday - PLUG East Side
> > > third tuesday - Ruby on Rails
> > > third tuesday - Free Software Stammtisch
> > > fourth wednesday - PLUG West Side
> > > fourth tuesday - AzPHP
> >
> > If you're considering invading PLUG East Side, you may want to throw
> > PhxBUG in there as well (first Tuesday). We usually do sysadmin topics,
> > and Perl fits so well with that it's not funny. Other misc perl
> > development topics also welcome.
> >
> > --
> > Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
> > dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
> > http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 07:25:20 2007
From: awwaiid at gmail.com (Brock)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:25:20 -0400
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Other UG's meetings? Re: Meeting Wed?
In-Reply-To: <46AFBB70.6050708@qwest.net>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070731182357.GE27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311445t5a65fc2ch171d8f701cfe075a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AFBB70.6050708@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <a35a0ab50708010725p1236f1c2i6834e1f311222e8e@mail.gmail.com>

I did forget, sorry, though there are no regularly scheduled meetings
to dodge so it doesn't matter. Besides the fact that all the members
are the same.

--Brock

On 7/31/07, Anthony R. Nemmer <intertwingled at qwest.net> wrote:
> Hey you forgot Tempe / East Valley Perlmongers too!

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Aug  1 11:31:12 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 11:31:12 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Give me your damn personal semi-Perl-related
	RSS	feeds already
In-Reply-To: <a35a0ab50708010725p1236f1c2i6834e1f311222e8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070731182357.GE27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311445t5a65fc2ch171d8f701cfe075a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AFBB70.6050708@qwest.net>
	<a35a0ab50708010725p1236f1c2i6834e1f311222e8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070801183112.GU20474@slowass.net>

I want RSS/Atom/RDF/whatever feeds of your blog for http://phoenix.pm.org/planet

Brock, did you have a chance to add /home/phoenixpm/planet-phoenix-pm/cron.txt
to cron (as user phoenixpm to run daily)?

Thanks,
-scott

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Aug  1 22:32:50 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:32:50 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Other UG's meetings? Re: Meeting Wed?
In-Reply-To: <a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070802053250.GW20474@slowass.net>

Hey Brock,

I don't see presentation worthy meetings happening any time soon but
I'll try to get the 3rd Thursdays to go.  (I didn't get around to reading
this particular message until later... working backwards.)

I redid the front page.  Comments welcome.  I tried to minimize the
need for people to crawl all over, so the front page works as a sort
of FAQ now with volitile information elsewhere.

Cheers,
-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sheesh... I'm gone for a mere two months and the python people are
> already creeping in!
> 
> Seriously though, I've gone to several of the PLUG-dev meetings and we
> even had an impromptu perl meeting at one of their meetings once and
> it was great and we were welcomed.
> 
> I think I was too shy about taking over Mill's End... but over the
> course of 2 years, the meetings there had consistent turnout. I say
> alternate between Mill's End and SCC.
> 
> I therefore propose that the Nth Xday of every month there will be a
> perl monger meetup at Mill's End in Tempe at 7:00pm, with pre-planned
> formal (projector-worthy) presentations at SCC.
> 
> Here is a list of possibly conflicting free-software-friendly groups I
> know of to help you fill in N and X:
> 
> first tuesday - Refresh Phoenix
> first thursday - PLUG DEV
> second monday - Ruby
> second thursday - PLUG East Side
> third tuesday - Ruby on Rails
> third tuesday - Free Software Stammtisch
> fourth wednesday - PLUG West Side
> fourth tuesday - AzPHP
> 
> I therefore propose these options in this order:
> * third thursday
> * first wednesday
> * fourth thursday
> 
> I will take feedback for a few days, but unless I hear otherwise I
> will make my first act as leader-in-exile to declare a Monthly Meeting
> at Mill's End on the Third Thursday of Every Month at Seven O'Clock
> PM. Formal topics will be announced no less than one week in advanced,
> and the default topic will be "Perl News and Notes, Current Projects,
> How I used Perl Since the Last Meeting, One Beginner Tip, and One
> Advanced Tip" plus the usual general technical and social
> conversation.
> 
> --Brock
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Aug  1 22:39:03 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:39:03 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>

I want your Reddit, del.icio.us, Twitter, LiveJournal, MySpace, or use.perl.org RSS,
RDF, or Atom feed, or the feed of whatever blog you use.  

I know not many people will read through *all* of the aggregated news but 
browsing through it would be a great way to discover other interesting Perl
people and get to know other Perl programmers in the valley and just give
us an excuse to interact with each other in general.

If you're not sure how to find your RSS feed on your blog of choice, tell
me where the HTML view of it is or tell me the site and your username and
I'll try to find it for you.

-scott


From scott at illogics.org  Wed Aug  1 22:49:42 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:49:42 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Desert Code Camp needs someone to present Catalyst
In-Reply-To: <20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <20070802054942.GY20474@slowass.net>

http://desertcodecamp.com/ -- anyone up for it?

-scott

On  0, Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org> wrote:
> I want your Reddit, del.icio.us, Twitter, LiveJournal, MySpace, or use.perl.org RSS,
> RDF, or Atom feed, or the feed of whatever blog you use.  
> 
> I know not many people will read through *all* of the aggregated news but 
> browsing through it would be a great way to discover other interesting Perl
> people and get to know other Perl programmers in the valley and just give
> us an excuse to interact with each other in general.
> 
> If you're not sure how to find your RSS feed on your blog of choice, tell
> me where the HTML view of it is or tell me the site and your username and
> I'll try to find it for you.
> 
> -scott
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Thu Aug  2 08:08:57 2007
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:08:57 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>

Perhaps the lack of response is because most of us don't have blogs?

I know that I don't. The interesting stuff I work on is either not  
technically interesting (yet another class tied to a db table) or is  
company proprietary. Not to mention that I don't have time to keep up  
a simple home page, let alone write a blog with any regularity.

OTOH, I'm glad to see a blog aggregation service for interesting perl  
stuff. It's nice to have everything in one place and it's a good way  
to find blogs to read that I don't already know about. I just don't  
feel I have anything to contribute.

-- Mike

On Aug 1, 2007, at 10:39 PM, Scott Walters wrote:

> I want your Reddit, del.icio.us, Twitter, LiveJournal, MySpace, or  
> use.perl.org RSS,
> RDF, or Atom feed, or the feed of whatever blog you use.
>
> I know not many people will read through *all* of the aggregated  
> news but
> browsing through it would be a great way to discover other  
> interesting Perl
> people and get to know other Perl programmers in the valley and  
> just give
> us an excuse to interact with each other in general.
>
> If you're not sure how to find your RSS feed on your blog of  
> choice, tell
> me where the HTML view of it is or tell me the site and your  
> username and
> I'll try to find it for you.
>
> -scott
>
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From scott at illogics.org  Thu Aug  2 07:39:58 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 07:39:58 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>

On  0, Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Perhaps the lack of response is because most of us don't have blogs?

That's absurd.  I read on a blog somewhere that 80% of people have
blogs.  Maybe it was a poll someone put on their LiveJournal page.
I don't remember.

Yeah, I started to come to that terrible realization myself after I
spent hours Googling for "phoenix perl blog" and not turning up
anything I didn't already have (I knew about Andrew's, Ben's,
and Brock's).

But still, I'm amazed at that.  I honestly thought everyone used
reddit or del.icio.us or *something*.  Even LiveJournal.  I hear
so many debates about which blog site to use, the debates hinging
on the crowds on them, among other things.  My non-geeky friends
have MySpace or LiveJournal blogs...

> I know that I don't. The interesting stuff I work on is either not  
> technically interesting (yet another class tied to a db table) or is  
> company proprietary. Not to mention that I don't have time to keep up  
> a simple home page, let alone write a blog with any regularity.

It usually doesn't work that.  Okay, I push the line a bit with
talking about work stuff that could be considered slightly sensitive
(but certainly not trade secret), but most people just have
vacation photos, little observations about their life, random bits
of creativity, funny pictures and links for thier friends.  I don't
find much time to post pictures (though the Nokia N800 makes it
really easy -- snap a picture, then upload it right to flickr, or
shoot a video, and upload it right to youtube care of Opera) but
I somehow magically find time to rant.

By the way, the N800 is *way* cooler than the iPhone.  The
"ten reasons the N800 is better than the iPhone" didn't even
scratch the surface.  The iPhone doesn't have P2P apps you
can install with which to get fetch music to play ;)

Working in an office recently, we had a collective feed somewhat
like this (originally done with Yahoo! Pipes then moved to 
del.icio.us care of a tag) and nearly everyone I worked with
submitted links to essays on programming, project management,
emerging technologies, neat hacks, cool modules, things other
programming language communities are doing, etc, etc.  There
was no ranting or blogging, just a lot of linking.  So I got the
impression from that that most programmers had a social bookmark
of programming stuff.  Twitter is supposed to be huge.  I figured
we'd have a few other people who use it (Ben has a blog *and*
a Twitter account and probably other things).

Hell, I've probably got a dozen RSS feeds... my sticky notes at 
ponderer.org/webnotes, Twitter, Flickr (disused), YouTube, 
LiveJournal (disused), an RSS feed of messages I've tagged 
in mutt, an RSS feed from a calendaring app I use, feed 
from the blog thingie I hacked up really quick with Continuity
at slowass.net:1111, my use.perl.org blog, ...  okay, that's 
nine, but I'm probably forgetting a few.  So to have them 
coming out my ears while other people apparently have none 
is mystifying.

Consider http://twittermap.com/maps?mapstring=phoenix,+az ...
there are hundreds of Twitter users in Phoenix who have 
posted recently.  Yet no one in this group users Twitter?

Are we not geeks?  Are we just working stiffs?

Do you guys actually avoid technology because you work with it
all day?  Is this stuff disinteresting because it's computer
related?

> OTOH, I'm glad to see a blog aggregation service for interesting perl  
> stuff. It's nice to have everything in one place and it's a good way  
> to find blogs to read that I don't already know about. I just don't  
> feel I have anything to contribute.

Well, the only blog in there that really counts as news
is the use.perl.org news feed.  There are a bunch more...
perl.com (ORA), feeds of messages from the development
lists, feed of new CPAN modules, and a bunch of other stuff,
but if I started sucking all of that in, it would drown out
the Phoenix.PM-er's blogs.  All four of them.  It's not a bad 
idea, but it would have to be done in parallel rather than
over top of that.  I've also subscribed to PhxBUG feed and
I'll probably put Refresh Phoenix's on there, if they have
one, if I get around to it, and PLUG's.  Keep it local so
it's not redudant, you know.

Anyway, the sun is up, so it's time for me to sleep.

Thanks for taking time to comment so I'm not sitting here
talking to myself *too* much...

-scott

> 
> -- Mike
> 
> On Aug 1, 2007, at 10:39 PM, Scott Walters wrote:
> 
> >I want your Reddit, del.icio.us, Twitter, LiveJournal, MySpace, or  
> >use.perl.org RSS,
> >RDF, or Atom feed, or the feed of whatever blog you use.
> >
> >I know not many people will read through *all* of the aggregated  
> >news but
> >browsing through it would be a great way to discover other  
> >interesting Perl
> >people and get to know other Perl programmers in the valley and  
> >just give
> >us an excuse to interact with each other in general.
> >
> >If you're not sure how to find your RSS feed on your blog of  
> >choice, tell
> >me where the HTML view of it is or tell me the site and your  
> >username and
> >I'll try to find it for you.
> >
> >-scott
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
> Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
> FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

From scott at illogics.org  Thu Aug  2 07:48:06 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 07:48:06 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <20070802144806.GB20474@slowass.net>

> we'd have a few other people who use it (Ben has a blog *and*
> a Twitter account and probably other things).

... actually, come to think of it, I didn't see any of you
at CodeCamp last year, except Ben and Awwaiid, who have blogs.
And Andrew, who has a blog, was the only one of the lot who 
made it to YAPC last year, though Brock tried.  I'm starting to 
see a pattern here.  

-scott


From nathan.oyler at sap.com  Thu Aug  2 09:09:33 2007
From: nathan.oyler at sap.com (Oyler, Nathan)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 09:09:33 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802144806.GB20474@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <F2A7A7622D19D741A855C0D50A23283104A55135@uspale20.pal.sap.corp>

I was at YAPC, I just didn't blog about it. 

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces+nathan.oyler=sap.com at pm.org
[mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces+nathan.oyler=sap.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Scott Walters
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 7:48 AM
To: Michael Friedman
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your
reddit,del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace

> we'd have a few other people who use it (Ben has a blog *and*
> a Twitter account and probably other things).

... actually, come to think of it, I didn't see any of you
at CodeCamp last year, except Ben and Awwaiid, who have blogs.
And Andrew, who has a blog, was the only one of the lot who 
made it to YAPC last year, though Brock tried.  I'm starting to 
see a pattern here.  

-scott

_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From dwchandler at stilyagin.com  Thu Aug  2 10:04:50 2007
From: dwchandler at stilyagin.com (Darrin Chandler)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:04:50 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <20070802170450.GA7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>

On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 07:39:58AM -0700, Scott Walters wrote:
> But still, I'm amazed at that.  I honestly thought everyone used
> reddit or del.icio.us or *something*.  Even LiveJournal.  I hear
> so many debates about which blog site to use, the debates hinging
> on the crowds on them, among other things.  My non-geeky friends
> have MySpace or LiveJournal blogs...

<snip>

> Hell, I've probably got a dozen RSS feeds... my sticky notes at 
> ponderer.org/webnotes, Twitter, Flickr (disused), YouTube, 
> LiveJournal (disused), an RSS feed of messages I've tagged 
> in mutt, an RSS feed from a calendaring app I use, feed 
> from the blog thingie I hacked up really quick with Continuity
> at slowass.net:1111, my use.perl.org blog, ...  okay, that's 
> nine, but I'm probably forgetting a few.  So to have them 
> coming out my ears while other people apparently have none 
> is mystifying.

This still fits with my "internet homeless" thoughts. Dozens, no,
hundreds of sites all aiming to be a hangout so that people can connect
with their closest friends? Bah! They offer essentially *nothing* that
we can't do on our own with a simple hosting account. Or just go hang
out with your friends in real life. RSS feeds? Why?  Who would read my
RSS feeds? Everyone has a blog, and most are unread.

> Consider http://twittermap.com/maps?mapstring=phoenix,+az ...
> there are hundreds of Twitter users in Phoenix who have 
> posted recently.  Yet no one in this group users Twitter?
> 
> Are we not geeks?  Are we just working stiffs?
> 
> Do you guys actually avoid technology because you work with it
> all day?  Is this stuff disinteresting because it's computer
> related?

No, I just don't have enough time to social network, constantly ping my
friends, and then blog about it. And if I had more time I'd do something
else instead, like write more code. It's not the geeks who are
cluttering up MySpace, et al; it's the "normal" people. You know, the
ones who are delighted that Twitter gives them a way to let all their
friends know that they are rotflmao watching Scrubs, or whatever.

Don't forget that Donald Knuth (pretty geeky!) chose to eschew email.
Come to think of it, my productivity has never recovered fully since the
days when I first got on CompuServe.

It's not that being connected is bad. It's not. I'm on quite a few
mailing lists, irc, and silc. It eats more of my time than I like, but
it's a price I'm paying to stay in the loop, so to speak. But I'm not
willing to sacrifice more time for things like Twitter, where I can be
interrupted in real time, constantly.

You might as well ask why we're not hanging out at the mall with all the
cool kids. ;-P

-- 
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation

From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Thu Aug  2 11:59:36 2007
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:59:36 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Fwd:  phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <e0d2adc80708021153r4f6a04d4m3308b00d457f34c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
	<e0d2adc80708021153r4f6a04d4m3308b00d457f34c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e0d2adc80708021159x703160e6icc76f642222cb9f3@mail.gmail.com>

My thoughts, spurred by the thoughts of others:

On 8/2/07, Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org> wrote:
> On  0, Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > Perhaps the lack of response is because most of us don't have blogs?
>
> That's absurd.  I read on a blog somewhere that 80% of people have
> blogs.  Maybe it was a poll someone put on their LiveJournal page.
> I don't remember.
>
> Yeah, I started to come to that terrible realization myself after I
> spent hours Googling for "phoenix perl blog" and not turning up
> anything I didn't already have (I knew about Andrew's, Ben's,
> and Brock's).

Yes, and checking my blog you'll see that since YAPC::NA 2006, there's
a dearth of Perl related content there, which why I hesitated to send
an RSS feedlink.  I'll sometimes link to Perl related articles in my
"Most Recent Links" section (powered by del.icio.us!), but I rarely
comment on Perl stuff anymore.

> But still, I'm amazed at that.  I honestly thought everyone used
> reddit or del.icio.us or *something*.  Even LiveJournal.  I hear
> so many debates about which blog site to use, the debates hinging
> on the crowds on them, among other things.  My non-geeky friends
> have MySpace or LiveJournal blogs...
>
> > I know that I don't. The interesting stuff I work on is either not
> > technically interesting (yet another class tied to a db table) or is
> > company proprietary. Not to mention that I don't have time to keep up
> > a simple home page, let alone write a blog with any regularity.
>

Ditto and ditto.  Most of my friends have MySpace or LiveJournal
accounts, but hey, I'm a web developer, I need my own site.  But yeah,
most of my programming stuff lately has been $DayJob related.  Most of
my personal stuff lately has been photography-related, and I don't
think people want to hear about how SuperAwesome (TM) Google's Picasa,
Adobe Lightroom, and Flickr Uploadr are.

> It usually doesn't work that.  Okay, I push the line a bit with
> talking about work stuff that could be considered slightly sensitive
> (but certainly not trade secret), but most people just have
> vacation photos, little observations about their life, random bits
> of creativity, funny pictures and links for thier friends.  I don't
> find much time to post pictures (though the Nokia N800 makes it
> really easy -- snap a picture, then upload it right to flickr, or
> shoot a video, and upload it right to youtube care of Opera) but
> I somehow magically find time to rant.
>
> By the way, the N800 is *way* cooler than the iPhone.  The
> "ten reasons the N800 is better than the iPhone" didn't even
> scratch the surface.  The iPhone doesn't have P2P apps you
> can install with which to get fetch music to play ;)
>

I, too, have recently discovered the geeky coolness that is the N800.
Since there's a fairly complete Debian-based Linux distro underneath,
there's considerable opportunity for direct software ports, though the
coolest apps are definitely the ones that were written from scratch
for the N800 or have been otherwise Hildon-ized.  Flickr does work
quite well, though most of Google's web apps are a bit slow, which I'm
not sure the new Mozilla-based browser will fix (what's needed is an
ultra-quick JavaScript engine, I think).

Oh yeah, and although no one seems to be mentioning it, there IS a
Perl interpreter onboard, version 5.8.3.

> Working in an office recently, we had a collective feed somewhat
> like this (originally done with Yahoo! Pipes then moved to
> del.icio.us care of a tag) and nearly everyone I worked with
> submitted links to essays on programming, project management,
> emerging technologies, neat hacks, cool modules, things other
> programming language communities are doing, etc, etc.  There
> was no ranting or blogging, just a lot of linking.  So I got the
> impression from that that most programmers had a social bookmark
> of programming stuff.  Twitter is supposed to be huge.  I figured
> we'd have a few other people who use it (Ben has a blog *and*
> a Twitter account and probably other things).
>
> Hell, I've probably got a dozen RSS feeds... my sticky notes at
> ponderer.org/webnotes, Twitter, Flickr (disused), YouTube,
> LiveJournal (disused), an RSS feed of messages I've tagged
> in mutt, an RSS feed from a calendaring app I use, feed
> from the blog thingie I hacked up really quick with Continuity
> at slowass.net:1111, my use.perl.org blog, ...  okay, that's
> nine, but I'm probably forgetting a few.  So to have them
> coming out my ears while other people apparently have none
> is mystifying.

Everything that people need to know about me I put on my site (that's
http://www.transformedplanet.com, for those that don't know).
Although I use several of the things you mention, if I can't integrate
it with my site somehow, I don't use it.  So my site aggregates
selected del.icio.us links, Flickr photos, some Amazon stuff, and my
(sorely in need of updating) ITToolbox blog.

Oh, and Twitter?  It's cool tech, but nobody needs to know what I'm
doing minute by minute.

In truth, though I do Perl stuff everyday, Perl is being left behind
in a couple of critical areas I'm interested in.  Ruby on Rails is the
cutting edge web development framework now, and the mobile scripting
language of choice for non-iPhones is Python.  I'm sure Perl will
always be around as a part of Unix, and will continue to be a valuable
database access and "back-end" style language; I don't think it's
dying per se.  But people aren't interested in it anymore.  I used to
think people were waiting for Parrot and Perl 6, but now I think they
got tired of waiting and found other tools to do their work.
Increasingly, I'm thinking I'm going to have to do the same thing.

[aj]

From scott at illogics.org  Thu Aug  2 11:08:25 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:08:25 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802170450.GA7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
	<20070802170450.GA7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
Message-ID: <20070802180825.GD20474@slowass.net>

> This still fits with my "internet homeless" thoughts. Dozens, no,
> hundreds of sites all aiming to be a hangout so that people can connect
> with their closest friends? Bah! They offer essentially *nothing* that
> we can't do on our own with a simple hosting account. Or just go hang
> out with your friends in real life. RSS feeds? Why?  Who would read my
> RSS feeds? Everyone has a blog, and most are unread.

Hmm.  This was a discussion topic in RL, face to face, and I strongly
agreed with you then.  But I have some caveats now.  RSS is 
fantastic.  If makes it not matter whether a blog is on myspace,
livejournal, or slowass.net (my machine).  You can monitor your
friends (as geeks and teenagers across the country enjoy doing, but
apparently not Phoenix.PM) without having to be "homeless" or 
having to move into the same homeless shelter as your homeless
friends.  

There are some "homeless" things I do.  My sticky notes... I 
looked at a bunch of desktop applications that did sticky notes
and I had major problems with all of them.  And in order to get
a large enough area to put them all, I'd have to run Xvncserver
and attach to that.  Having a real server to run your 
networkable stuff on, or a real workstation to run your
productivity apps on, is nice.  Having apps that run on X
rather than kludgy, ugly HTTP/JS/HTML is extremely nice.   
I wouldn't have let myself get hooked on it except that the
code is available and I just haven't gotten around to migrating
it over to my machine yet.  But even then, I like being able
to wire applications up through RSS.

Re: hanging out with friends in real life, what seems to happen
a lot now days is someone announces some minor get together or
outting on their LiveJournal page, or they tell the world where
they are currently via Twitter, and their friends just magically
show up.  No calling everyone trying to set a date, much less
trying to pick a subset of friends to invite.

Maybe Brock is right that a meeting once a month is the way to
go.  Maybe I got it exactly backwards and trying to automate
more of the group is the exact wrong approach.  Maybe people
need a routine, formal invites, etc rather than digital
coordination.

> > Consider http://twittermap.com/maps?mapstring=phoenix,+az ...
> > there are hundreds of Twitter users in Phoenix who have 
> > posted recently.  Yet no one in this group users Twitter?
> > 
> > Are we not geeks?  Are we just working stiffs?
> > 
> > Do you guys actually avoid technology because you work with it
> > all day?  Is this stuff disinteresting because it's computer
> > related?
> 
> No, I just don't have enough time to social network, constantly ping my
> friends, and then blog about it. And if I had more time I'd do something

No, no, the ping is the blog.  And they choose whether they get pinged
or view it on demand.

I hate the telephone.  People call me while I'm sleeping and leave
the same standard message: "call me back".  I don't know what they
want or whether it's important.  I call them.  They aren't in.  Or
they are, and they just want to gab, but I'd rather be coding.  Or
the occasion or need passed and if they'd sent a text message to my
pager instead I might have reacted to their flat tire emergency 
rather than decide to finish sleeping first then call them back.
Then when they have a party, they have to call everyone, find out
what times are good, then call everyone back again and tell them
what time they settled on.  They have to call even those friends
that they're not in close touch with from time to time in attempt
to not get too much further out of touch, but not call them 
every time or else it's nagging.  Then if you invite someone
to something three times and they can't make it to any of them,
manners dictate that you leave it to them to invite you to
something next time.

Analog sucks.  The kids have the right idea.  "Hey, I'm at Mill's
End Coffee" on Twitter implies that if people want to hang out
with you, they're welcome to, but no awkward coordination.
It just kind of happens.  On LiveJournal, you declare a party,
and all of your friends see it.  Since everyone sees it 
every time, people don't feel like they have to go out of
politeness or they won't be invited next time, so you're
less likely to have too many guests.  Again, it keeps it casual.

Similar for email.  I have a friend, bless her, who writes
emails now and then and cc's everyone.  She tells them about
what's going on in her life.  It's like writing a real letter
almost -- I want to keep in touch with her and she's doing
the work of it.  I try to write back, so I wind up repeating
myself when I tell her what I've been up, because my mother
also emails me like that.  If everyone just read my blog,
then I could put it all out there for whoever is interested.
A blog lets me keep in touch with a lot more people with a
lot less effort.

And there's the community aspect of it.  There are Perl people
out there doing intersting things with and to Perl.  You can
learn a lot reading what they have to say.  Some people consistently
publish very good stuff.  And then you people with shared interests
you can discuss stuff with.  It lets you interact with a remote
community that you'd otherwise be alien to.

I wouldn't subscribe to your blog if it were boring.  As for the
Planet thing, no one is going to read through the whole thing.
If anything, they'll just get a flavor of the local scene from
time to time, and use it to discover people that they find
interesting that live here.  If all you have to publish is
"I went to work today.  I came home.  My wife yelled at me", then
you're right, I wouldn't read your blog.

As for meeting people and talking to them in RL face to face,
I guess that's what Phoenix.PM is for, even though turnouts
can be poor and it's a lot of work to entice them out with
a good presentation.  I assume it's a lot of driving for
people.  So by moving more to blogs, I was, apparently wrongly,
trying to move away from the difficult for me and for them
prospect of real life meeting and move to the much easier
blog format.

> else instead, like write more code. It's not the geeks who are
> cluttering up MySpace, et al; it's the "normal" people. You know, the
> ones who are delighted that Twitter gives them a way to let all their
> friends know that they are rotflmao watching Scrubs, or whatever.

Hey, I post Perl in my Twitter.  And all of my blogs aggregated 
together collectively record what I should be billing each client,
so that "At Inza writing Perl.  NG." serves a dual purpose.  And
I've Twittered myself at being a locations and had friends drop in
not once but twice now!  Keeping a journal gives me insights
into my time usage.

> Don't forget that Donald Knuth (pretty geeky!) chose to eschew email.
> Come to think of it, my productivity has never recovered fully since the
> days when I first got on CompuServe.

Heh.  Yeah, and I'm not making a very good case for saving time
by sitting here writing verbose emails.  But there is a purpose --
I feel some obligation to this group and to Brock and I want to
figure out same way to make it go, even if I seriously lack
people skills and don't think I can muster the time to put
presentations together.  When I program, I try to figure out how
to "cheat"... not cut corners or anything like that, but I've
decided that some thought into identifying unnecessary
("accidental") complexity can save lots of time coding unnecessary
complexity.  And sometimes a small amount of evil in Perl can
save large amounts of time doing it "the right way".  Cuz, hey,
if we're only ever going to do it the right away, why not write
Java?  So I'm doing the same thing here.  I'm trying to find some
assumptions that I can safely dispense with -- such as that we
need presentations to continue the main purpose of the group,
specifically keeping Pheonix area Perl programmers connected and
talking about whatever the hell they talk about (which tends to
be exactly what is in blogs -- life, the wife, the job, what
evil thing Microsoft is doing this week, what cool thing
Apple is doing this month, what distros just has a release,
what major Free Software icons just had opposing viewpoints, 
which manufacturers in some way acknowledged Free Software, 
which software is as of recently vulnerable, whatever else
gets posted to Slashdot).  

So, sounding this out with you and others on the list, while
somewhat indulgant, has been extremely helpful to me.  We do
need RL face to face time.  But I maintain that if people did
have blogs, the content wouldn't be much different than the
content of meetings ;)

> It's not that being connected is bad. It's not. I'm on quite a few
> mailing lists, irc, and silc. It eats more of my time than I like, but
> it's a price I'm paying to stay in the loop, so to speak. But I'm not
> willing to sacrifice more time for things like Twitter, where I can be
> interrupted in real time, constantly.

Heh.  Well, I don't own a cell phone.  I detest the bastards.  
So I pull for other people's updates there.  I'm not keen to real-time
interruption either.  I have a pager, but I have the voice answering
service, where a real human answers the phone and transcribes the
message.  You'd think it would be the same thing as voice mail but
it's entirely different -- I get *no* friviliously crap.  People
just aren't willing to have a real live human being relay messages about 
their cat vomiting.  So it goes off infrequently and when it does,
I know it's important.  And the "call me" crap doesn't work -- the
operator wants to know what it's concerning so they can tell me.
And it's still cheaper than a cell phone.

If I Twitter and a friend drops by, then I get to catch up
in real time, face to face, something that I'd have to tediously
coordinate otherwise.

> You might as well ask why we're not hanging out at the mall with all the
> cool kids. ;-P

That's a good metaphore except that I'd thought for some reason that
the list is full of geeks and geeks would be interested in replacing
tedious analog processes with streamlined digital ones.

As it is, I'm wondering if I wouldn't rather hang out with the kids
on MySpace than you sorry lot =P  But seriously, it looks like
real life meetings is where it's at.  I don't know why.  We're
older and more traditional.  I think a lot of us might enjoy the
formalities -- that wouldn't surprise me as the more formal
meetings draw larger crowds.  And there's the whole art of
conversation, where you speak concisely and detect when you're
not entertaining the crowd so you can shut up and let someone
else speak -- exactly what I'm not doing here.

Planet could prove to be amusing so I won't kill it just yet.
but I won't try to lean on it any more either.

My next wonder is whether the virtual people out there (this list
has far more lurkers than people who have ever made a meeting)
would enjoy seeing digital versions of the analog meetings --
should we try to film presentations and post them online?

And I'm still wondering if we benefit from having Perl 
specific meetings with fewer people rather than larger
meetings that aren't Perl specific -- more like Brock's
DCFringe group, where all of the users of fringe langauges
meet and hang out.  I'm thinking yes, but I'm capable of
being wrong ;)

Cheers,
-scott



> -- 
> Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
> dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
> http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From dwchandler at stilyagin.com  Thu Aug  2 14:06:54 2007
From: dwchandler at stilyagin.com (Darrin Chandler)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:06:54 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802180825.GD20474@slowass.net>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
	<20070802170450.GA7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<20070802180825.GD20474@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <20070802210654.GC7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>

On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 11:08:25AM -0700, Scott Walters wrote:
> Hmm.  This was a discussion topic in RL, face to face, and I strongly
> agreed with you then.  But I have some caveats now.  RSS is 
> fantastic.  If makes it not matter whether a blog is on myspace,
> livejournal, or slowass.net (my machine).  You can monitor your
> friends (as geeks and teenagers across the country enjoy doing, but
> apparently not Phoenix.PM) without having to be "homeless" or 
> having to move into the same homeless shelter as your homeless
> friends.  

"Homelessness" doesn't apply to everything on the internet. Only to the
"social" gathering places, and to sites providing services that any
competent geek can easily do for themselves.

I use RSS myself to some degree, but I find it less useful than it
should be. I've been meaning to look into a better reader/aggregator,
but that's been pushed down on my list.

> Analog sucks.  The kids have the right idea.  "Hey, I'm at Mill's
> End Coffee" on Twitter implies that if people want to hang out
> with you, they're welcome to, but no awkward coordination.
> It just kind of happens.

No. They have *one* right idea. People using the internet are not one
homogeneous group. For me, the "hang out at the mall" web sites are
utter junk. Not because they're stupid, but because they don't fit what
I want/need at all.

> So, sounding this out with you and others on the list, while
> somewhat indulgant, has been extremely helpful to me.  We do
> need RL face to face time.  But I maintain that if people did
> have blogs, the content wouldn't be much different than the
> content of meetings ;)

Very few have chimed in so far, so don't rule anything out too quickly.
Moreover, I see no reason to give up on virtual just because we'll still
meet in person. I'm not as against some of your ideas as I may have led
you to believe.  You just found (one of many) of my rant buttons.

> That's a good metaphore except that I'd thought for some reason that
> the list is full of geeks and geeks would be interested in replacing
> tedious analog processes with streamlined digital ones.

For me, you're replacing tedious analog processes with tedious online
processes. ;-P

> My next wonder is whether the virtual people out there (this list
> has far more lurkers than people who have ever made a meeting)
> would enjoy seeing digital versions of the analog meetings --
> should we try to film presentations and post them online?

I've been talking with one of the MetaBUG people about finding a way to
do simpler live presentations over the net. Basically, slides synced
with broadcast audio. We did video a few times, but it's been less than
great. Stay tuned, and feel free to ping me if it's been more than a few
weeks...

> And I'm still wondering if we benefit from having Perl 
> specific meetings with fewer people rather than larger
> meetings that aren't Perl specific -- more like Brock's
> DCFringe group, where all of the users of fringe langauges
> meet and hang out.  I'm thinking yes, but I'm capable of
> being wrong ;)

I'll throw another nasty thing in here. Lately I've been questioning the
whole concept of local meetings. We're all on the internet, after all!
And we're real geeks, after all! There are scads of little local groups
struggling to keep critical mass going, and it's an uphill battle the
whole time. Why not cast the net over the whole 'net and bring in a
bigger catch, creating a more self sustaining community? The biggest,
and perhaps only, benefit of a local group is that people really do seem
to feel more part of the community when you can put faces with names.
OTOH, I've been hanging out in #metabug on freenode.net, and we're
feeling like a community. So perhaps it's not so much face time as
interactive time that builds friendships and a sense of community. Not
sure. But I do know that people seem more ready to chat, to ask for
help, and to participate in general when the community feel is there.

Anyone interested in a #phoenix.pm on freenode.net?

-- 
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation

From scott at illogics.org  Thu Aug  2 19:17:11 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 19:17:11 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <e0d2adc80708021153r4f6a04d4m3308b00d457f34c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
	<e0d2adc80708021153r4f6a04d4m3308b00d457f34c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070803021711.GE20474@slowass.net>

> an RSS feedlink.  I'll sometimes link to Perl related articles in my
> "Most Recent Links" section (powered by del.icio.us!), but I rarely
> comment on Perl stuff anymore.

My logic might be flawed, but I think even quick links to articles
is really important.  Looking at what other people are reading helps
you yourself keep your finger on the pulse, so to speak.  

There's a vast body of knowledge out there with no apparent place to
get started.  A lot of people chose for whatever reason to get started
at least in part through Phoenix.PM which solves a lot of problems... 
if you just look at what a bunch of strange people are doing ... it 
lacks context.  You can't really talk to these people, and you don't 
have anything in common, and it's not a good sample of people anyway,
so you don't know if they're basically ordinary Perl programmers.
I think it's to Phoenix.PM's benefit that it is mostly work-a-day
types.  Then people come to meetings, we say, yeah, we all use DBI,
and so should you, and yeah, we all use strict and warnings, and
so should you, here, let us help you.  We can put all of this mess
in some sort of context.  But it seems that that context is that
all that crazy stuff going out there we barely pay attention to
and aren't eager to repeat ;)

> most of my programming stuff lately has been $DayJob related.  Most of

Hrm.  I'm not in a very good position to understand this one.
I'm not sure if it's modesty or actually not doing anything
interesting but people are surprisingly interested by presentations
about the "nothing in particular I'm doing at work"... if nothing
else, everyone seems to be able to relate to that and actually
pick up tips from it... it's accessible.  It's probably those
as well as laziness as well as disinterest in blogging --
everything that everyone said.

Maybe I feel like I really have to keep my finger on the pulse of
things, and staying relavent and extremely productive is an ongoing
fight.  And feeling like I'm up against the wall day in and day out,
I crave feedback and input.

> I, too, have recently discovered the geeky coolness that is the N800.

Yay!!

> Since there's a fairly complete Debian-based Linux distro underneath,
> there's considerable opportunity for direct software ports, though the
> coolest apps are definitely the ones that were written from scratch
> for the N800 or have been otherwise Hildon-ized.  Flickr does work
> quite well, though most of Google's web apps are a bit slow, which I'm
> not sure the new Mozilla-based browser will fix (what's needed is an
> ultra-quick JavaScript engine, I think).

Yeah.  The CPU is pretty fast (I think 400mhz or so) but it's of the
embedded sort so the cache is small and that doesn't do well with
large applications like several meg large Web browsers.  Running
Opera or Firefox is just one big prolonged cache miss.

I recently did the x11vnc port for the thing (which can be launched
from the menu but is better started from shell or init.d).  I'm 
really digging being able to just cut and paste stuff back and 
forth, rsync over to it, wget from it, etc, all from a real
keyboard and mouse.  It joins the network at home automatically
so I just walk in the house, sit down, vnc over to it, and I'm 
using my PDA from my desktop.

> Oh yeah, and although no one seems to be mentioning it, there IS a
> Perl interpreter onboard, version 5.8.3.

Hrm, I'm not seeing it in my path... 

> Oh, and Twitter?  It's cool tech, but nobody needs to know what I'm
> doing minute by minute.

I don't think that's the idea.  I think the idea is that if you're
going bowling, you Twitter it, and some more friends might join.
Or you're going to some bar.  Something that's social.  It's
like Evite but without a barrage of liqour ads, RSVPs, etc.
It's Evite stripped down so far to the core that it can be used
casually, if you're so inclined.  But a lot of people wind up
using it just as a micro blog type thing.  Forcing people to
be concise raises the signal to noise ratio of posts.  Posts
are still insightful, witty, intersting -- they just wind up
being really short when people do that.  It has nothing to do
with blogging every minute of your life.  I do every few days
with some social stuff and some hopefully amusing or
education bits thrown in.

> In truth, though I do Perl stuff everyday, Perl is being left behind
> in a couple of critical areas I'm interested in.  Ruby on Rails is the
> cutting edge web development framework now, and the mobile scripting
> language of choice for non-iPhones is Python.  I'm sure Perl will
> always be around as a part of Unix, and will continue to be a valuable
> database access and "back-end" style language; I don't think it's
> dying per se.  But people aren't interested in it anymore.  I used to
> think people were waiting for Parrot and Perl 6, but now I think they
> got tired of waiting and found other tools to do their work.
> Increasingly, I'm thinking I'm going to have to do the same thing.

I think you're absolutely right.  Perl people seem to really dislike
contraversy so they don't say things that might hurt feelings, so
you almost never hear any hint of this.  Thanks for being direct
enough to mention it.  I think this has a lot of bearing on what's
going on with the group now.  At first, Perl people were doing more
and more Python, then Ruby came along and a lot of them found that
Ruby suited their style very well.  The Perl 6 thing happened and
it wound up turning a lot of Perl programmers onto Haskell.

I wonder how everyone would feel about creating a FringePhoenix
in the vein of http://www.lisperati.com/fringedc.html and then
merging Phoenix.PM with it >=)

-scott

> [aj]

-scott


From scott at illogics.org  Fri Aug  3 00:07:53 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 00:07:53 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
	del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802210654.GC7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>
	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>
	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
	<20070802170450.GA7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
	<20070802180825.GD20474@slowass.net>
	<20070802210654.GC7008@jeeves.stilyagin.com>
Message-ID: <20070803070753.GF20474@slowass.net>

On  0, Darrin Chandler <dwchandler at stilyagin.com> wrote:
>
> I've been talking with one of the MetaBUG people about finding a way to
> do simpler live presentations over the net. Basically, slides synced
> with broadcast audio. We did video a few times, but it's been less than
> great. Stay tuned, and feel free to ping me if it's been more than a few
> weeks...

Sounds like SMIL... but I doubt that's easy to deploy, package, 
or view.  I think it's from the era of the-Internet-is-slow-and-
moving-content-is-upscale.

I'd just shoot audio/video and at the same time record a
VNC capture of the desktop with something like vnc2swf
(but maybe not vnc2swf itself).  

Googling quicklike, I found http://www.sodan.org/~penny/vncrec/
which claims that transcode will convert its output to whatever.
Then just load them up in some movie editing software, take the
audio from the live recording and start splicing screencap
stuff.  Or just put them both side by side for the whole thing.
Or something.

> > specific meetings with fewer people rather than larger
> > meetings that aren't Perl specific -- more like Brock's
> > DCFringe group, where all of the users of fringe langauges
> > meet and hang out.  I'm thinking yes, but I'm capable of
> > being wrong ;)
> 
> I'll throw another nasty thing in here. Lately I've been questioning the
> whole concept of local meetings. We're all on the internet, after all!
> And we're real geeks, after all! There are scads of little local groups
> struggling to keep critical mass going, and it's an uphill battle the
> whole time. Why not cast the net over the whole 'net and bring in a
> bigger catch, creating a more self sustaining community? The biggest,
> and perhaps only, benefit of a local group is that people really do seem
> to feel more part of the community when you can put faces with names.
> OTOH, I've been hanging out in #metabug on freenode.net, and we're
> feeling like a community. So perhaps it's not so much face time as
> interactive time that builds friendships and a sense of community. Not
> sure. But I do know that people seem more ready to chat, to ask for
> help, and to participate in general when the community feel is there.

Question stuff, by all means.  People have started virtual Perl Mongers
groups.  There's one for one of the IRC networks.  There's a corporate
one for AOL which spans its various campuses in various states.  But,
as far as I can tell, they don't do anything interesting or useful.
They're probably too redundant with perlmonks.org (which has a 
chatter box), use.perl.org, perl.com, IRC, and so on and so forth.
There's a vast amount of Perl information out there, some terribly
out of date or just bad (Matt's Script Archive).  So, like I said
in my reply to Andrew, people don't know where to begin, they don't 
know what's relavent to them, they don't know what reasonable 
expectations are, or if they can relate to the person behind it, whether 
their situation is similar or not, and so on.  

On the other hand, the immediate parent to Perl Mongers is YAS
which also also does YAPC.

When people ask me online for suggestions in learning Perl, I always
tell them to find their local Perl Mongers.  On the 'net, there is
an overabundance of people needing help and a dearth of people
giving it.  Too many people congregate on too few.  And it's too
quick and anonymous.  No real level of mutual respect and understanding
is established.  If you can meet someone in real life, explain your
program, and have them interactively show you things, etc.  When
they tell you that you're doing it completely wrong, you're more
likely to listen.  You're more likely to give them a mini-tutorial
on the spot.  They're able to tell that you're not being smug but
instead are earnestly trying to help them.  Etc.

Also, people spend relatively little time talking about Perl at
Perl meetings.  They like to talk about random things, local things,
things they incidentally have in common, the local job market,
traffic...

So, I'm not sure what PerlMongers is really translates over.

That being said, I very much enjoy being part of the larger
community.  That's part of the frustration... I see a vibrant 
community there, full of sharing and helping and people
providing mini-presentations of a sort (in the form of blog 
entries) and I want that for the local group.  

> Anyone interested in a #phoenix.pm on freenode.net?

I'm personally more interested in directed conversation than
random chat, so IRC is low on my list of favored mediums.

> 
> -- 
> Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
> dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
> http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation

-scott

From dwchandler at stilyagin.com  Mon Aug  6 15:38:46 2007
From: dwchandler at stilyagin.com (Darrin Chandler)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:38:46 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] August PhxBUG Beer & BSD - TOMORROW
Message-ID: <20070806223846.GD25591@jeeves.stilyagin.com>

This month is another Beer & BSD event at Casey Moore's on 9th & Ash in
Tempe, tomorrow Tuesday August 7th, from 6:30pm until whenever. Casey's
has a selection of food & drink.

For those of you who haven't attended, Beer & BSD is similar to the Free
Software Stammtisch. There's no formal presentation, and topics range
from highly technical to pure drivel. ;-)

This month I have a set of FreeBSD CDs to give away to a caring home.
The CDs range from 2.x through 6, and should go to someone who would
consider them a treasure.

Event details and map link at http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/

-- 
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation

From wlindley at wlindley.com  Mon Aug  6 16:43:20 2007
From: wlindley at wlindley.com (Bill Lindley)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:43:20 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] phoenix.pm.org wants to aggregate your reddit,
 del.icio.us, twitter, LJ, myspace
In-Reply-To: <20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
References: <20070730130811.GH20474@slowass.net>	<20070731015840.GI20474@slowass.net>	<20070731161201.GA27223@jeeves.stilyagin.com>	<a35a0ab50707311037v3ab3c439y47c9da3dc77764ce@mail.gmail.com>	<20070802053903.GX20474@slowass.net>	<65A7C497-C5AB-4CEA-996F-D79AB6615B9E@highwire.stanford.edu>
	<20070802143958.GA20474@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <46B7B218.5040900@wlindley.com>

 > I read on a blog somewhere that 80% of people have blogs.

This sounds suspiciously like Gracie Allen, on the old Burns & Allen 
radio show.

George: "What did you do today, Gracie?"
Gracie: "I conducted a telephone poll."
George: "And what did you discover?"
Gracie: "Everyone I called, had one!"

But all seriousness aside, my site wlindley.com has an RSS feed but I'm 
not sure how germane it would be for what we're doing here.

See you all at BSD tomorrow,

\\/


From dwchandler at stilyagin.com  Tue Aug  7 17:54:31 2007
From: dwchandler at stilyagin.com (Darrin Chandler)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 17:54:31 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Beer & BSD tonight!
Message-ID: <20070808005431.GB4781@jeeves.stilyagin.com>

Just a reminder that Beer & BSD begins at 6:30pm and runs until we all
leave. Feel free to show up any time and stay just as long as you like.
It's at Casey Moore's on 9th & Ash, southwest of University & Mill in
Tempe.

See you there!

-- 
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Wed Aug  8 20:19:12 2007
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 20:19:12 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] UG News--Introducing beautifulcode.oreillynet.com
Message-ID: <20070809031912.GG23811@thelackthereof.org>

(Hello Phoenix.PM and DC.PM!)

I don't know if any of you have seen the Beautiful Code book yet, but it
seems pretty damn cool. I've perused it the bookstore and am going to
get a copy soon (though perhaps I will take Marsee up on her review-copy
offer).

Anyway, looks like they've set up http://beautifulcode.oreillynet.com
though it seems to have mostly javaish stuff so far.

--Brock

----- Forwarded message from Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com> -----

Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 17:30:56 -0700
Subject: UG News--Introducing beautifulcode.oreillynet.com
From: Marsee Henon <marsee at oreilly.com>
To: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org

Hi,

Can you share the following news with your members? And we're still 
looking for someone to submit a slashdot review. Let me know if you 
need a copy.

Thanks for your help,

Marsee



O'Reilly's created a brand new website devoted to the topics in our new
book "Beautiful Code" at http://beautifulcode.oreillynet.com.

We give you the opportunity to discuss the book's projects and to
contribute information about other projects that illustrate coding
artistry.

The lead programmer for the Beautiful Code website is Michael Feathers,
a popular author and expert in Agile Programming who contributed the
chapter "Framework for Integrated Test: Beauty through Fragility."

In a recent post, Feathers writes: "When I was a younger programmer, I
felt guilty about being a neat-freak. It was a selective obsession.
There I was, sitting in my office with stacks of papers and books
covering every available space, but I was oblivious to it. As long as my
code looked great, I could shut out the chaos around me: the towering
stacks of dead tree that could've toppled and crushed me if I had
sneezed."

Feathers continues, "I don't know why I felt bad about being that way,
but in retrospect, I think that I felt that I was wasting time caring
about neatness in code. It took me a couple of years to figure out that
the ergonomics of code matter, and that the time you spend decluttering
your code can declutter your thoughts as well."

Got a site that fits the spirit of Beautiful Code? Then send us a link
so we can blog about it:
http://beautifulcode.oreillynet.com/suggest_site.php


For more information on "Beautiful Code: Leading Programmers Explain
How They Think" Edited by Andy Oram, Greg Wilson, go to:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510046


Don't forget that as a UG member you get 35% off from O'Reilly, No
Starch, Paraglyph, PC Publishing, Pragmatic Bookshelf, Rocky Nook,
SitePoint, or YoungJin books you purchase directly from O'Reilly.

Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938.
<http://www.oreilly.com/store/>


================================================================
O'Reilly 1005 Gravenstein Highway North Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://ug.oreilly.com/creativemedia/
================================================================

----- End forwarded message -----

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Aug  8 19:09:44 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 19:09:44 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Fwd: Job Posting
Message-ID: <20070809020944.GO20474@slowass.net>

Hi folks,

Please reply to Chris directly with replies to this that you want him to see 
the reply.

I think this is Chandler area.

-scott

----- Forwarded message from Chris Franz <franz at unicon.net> -----

Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 20:09:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Chris Franz <franz at unicon.net>
To: Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org>
Subject: Re: Job Posting?

Job Description

Work on a small team to manage a complex Subversion (SVN) repository of curriculum artifacts.  Develop and maintain a set of Perl scripts to assemble artifacts from the content repository into a viewable set of files served by an Apache web server.  Develop PHP administration pages that potentially involve a backend MySQL database.

Education and Work Experience
???	Two or four year college degree. 
???	Two to four years of professional experience in Linux system administration and supporting software projects using the SVN version control system.

Required Knowledge & Skills:
???	Linux system administration skills.
???	Version control system administration experience, specifically with SVN.
???	Perl script development skills.
???	XML/XSLT, HTML JS development skills
???	Professional experience with php and sh. 
???	Professional experience with relational databases such as MySQL 

Preferred Knowledge & Skills:
???	Apache web server expertise.
???	Knowledge of CSS, DTDs and Flash (AS 2.0/3.0).

Non-Technical Skills
???	Self-starter; Willing to learn/explore new areas in the computing field and independently work to solve problems.
???	Excellent communications and interpersonal skills. 
???	Outstanding attention to detail.
???	Strong analytical and design skills. 
???	Strong teamwork skills.


I can provide more detail if you'd like.  This
is a full-time position.  I'm flexible as far as
employee and/or contractor.  We have funding for 3 months
but I believe the position will be around for at least
a year.  I need somebody asap, like Monday.

I guess I'd be looking at a $60-75K/year salaried person
(plus full bennies) or, alternatively, a $50-60/hr contractor.

Thanks for your assistance with this and the tip of jobs.perl.org.
I'll check it out.  I appreciate it.

Chris Franz
-
Unicon, Inc.
480-558-2401(o)
602-370-8146(c)
www.unicon.net


From dave at uvhosting.com  Thu Aug  9 11:31:32 2007
From: dave at uvhosting.com (David Szostek)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 14:31:32 -0400
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Tempe Job Opening
Message-ID: <200708091831.l79IVRFu015447@giraffe-uv.ord.uvhosting.com>

Hi,

We have a client with a job opening for a project in the Tempe area. The
description is attached.

If anyone is interested in applying, please send your resume and a brief
detail of relevant experience to perljobs at dougandjayproductions.com and they
will correspond with you directly.

Thanks,
David
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: DV Perl Job Posting - Aug 9 2007.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 13909 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/phoenix-pm/attachments/20070809/0d9b7821/attachment-0001.pdf 

From alexanderhenry at cox.net  Tue Aug 14 07:34:41 2007
From: alexanderhenry at cox.net (alexanderhenry at cox.net)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:34:41 -0400
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Job Fair at Insight - Today, Aug 14 2-5pm
Message-ID: <31615297.1187102081849.JavaMail.root@fed1wml10.mgt.cox.net>

Sorry for the short notice, but this was posted on our internal website yesterday, and I just noticed it today.

Also, this is not an "official" job posting from Insight, but a personal referral from me, Alexander Henry, to you all at AZIPA.

Insight is having a job fair from 2pm to 5pm today, August 14 at their Harl facility, 6820 S Harl Ave., Tempe, AZ 85283.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=6820+South+Harl+Ave.+Tempe,+AZ+85283.&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=93.78148,113.730469&ie=UTF8&ll=33.361646,-111.954975&spn=0.051471,0.055532&z=14&iwloc=addr&om=1

The full list of job postings can be found here:

http://www.insight.com/site/static/careers/careers2.cfm?CAT=25

They are hiring heavily for Account Executive, which is outbound sales responsible for managing and growing the overall relationship for potential and existing clients. 

Several I.T. positions are available as well.

Again, this is not an "official" job posting from Insight, but a personal referral from me, Alexander Henry, so a reference on your application would be appreciated :-)

-- 
Alexander Henry

From mbadolato at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 17:54:38 2007
From: mbadolato at gmail.com (Mark Badolato)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:54:38 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Job in Scottsdale available
Message-ID: <e2f4af580708291754u2b42d7b9w9fcbd8fe72a1e0db@mail.gmail.com>

Hi folks,

A few months back, there was mention on this list that there was a
recruiter posting a gig in Scottsdale on the jobs.perl.org board.  I
believe one of my coworkers (David Sinck) chimed in to the thread in
response to a question.

Anyway, we (the actual company, Incentive Logic, not a recruiter) have
brought one person on board and are looking for one more.  The
position is 40 hours a week, contract to hire.

If anyone is interested (or knows of other Perl peeps who may be),
details of the position are up at:

http://jobs.perl.org/job/6595

Resumes and code samples (nothing extravagant needed; just something
to demonstrate your Perl-fu) may be sent to
perljobs at incentivelogic.com, where they will reach me and David Sinck
(amongst others).

Take care,

Mark Badolato
Senior Developer,
Incentive Logic, Inc.

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Aug 29 22:27:04 2007
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:27:04 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Job in Scottsdale available
In-Reply-To: <e2f4af580708291754u2b42d7b9w9fcbd8fe72a1e0db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e2f4af580708291754u2b42d7b9w9fcbd8fe72a1e0db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070830052704.GH14653@slowass.net>

Okay, no more Incentive Logic posts here.  Every couple of months,
someone is recruiting for them here and they're all over jobs.perl.org.
Maybe there's a reason for that.

Beyond that, my day long stay there was extremely awkward, and now I'm 
supposed to be in charge of this group, I'm going to act selfishly and
request that I no longer have to see job posts here.  And if anyone
either associated with them or a neutral observer finds this email
rude, say the word, and I'll be glad to dig up the "go away" email I got
from them.

Regards,
-scott


On  0, Mark Badolato <mbadolato at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> A few months back, there was mention on this list that there was a
> recruiter posting a gig in Scottsdale on the jobs.perl.org board.  I
> believe one of my coworkers (David Sinck) chimed in to the thread in
> response to a question.
> 
> Anyway, we (the actual company, Incentive Logic, not a recruiter) have
> brought one person on board and are looking for one more.  The
> position is 40 hours a week, contract to hire.
> 
> If anyone is interested (or knows of other Perl peeps who may be),
> details of the position are up at:
> 
> http://jobs.perl.org/job/6595
> 
> Resumes and code samples (nothing extravagant needed; just something
> to demonstrate your Perl-fu) may be sent to
> perljobs at incentivelogic.com, where they will reach me and David Sinck
> (amongst others).
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Mark Badolato
> Senior Developer,
> Incentive Logic, Inc.
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From dwchandler at stilyagin.com  Wed Aug 29 19:58:03 2007
From: dwchandler at stilyagin.com (Darrin Chandler)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:58:03 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Job in Scottsdale available
In-Reply-To: <20070830052704.GH14653@slowass.net>
References: <e2f4af580708291754u2b42d7b9w9fcbd8fe72a1e0db@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070830052704.GH14653@slowass.net>
Message-ID: <20070830025802.GB18277@jeeves.stilyagin.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 10:27:04PM -0700, Scott Walters wrote:
> Beyond that, my day long stay there was extremely awkward, and now I'm 

Is that when you cottoned to the fact that they wanted you in order to
form a merger named Incentive Illogics?

-- 
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation