From larry at wall.org  Sat Apr  1 15:10:54 2006
From: larry at wall.org (Larry Wall)
Date: Sat,  1 Apr 2006 23:10:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $
Message-ID: <200604012303.40162.larry@wall.org>



Recently I had time to think about the $ symbol we use in Perl.

I think Perl has been using the USD symbol for too long, and I'm now sure
that it's time to replace it. After some research I came to the conclusion 
that the best fit is the euro symbol (?).

So, spread the word, Perl 6 will require you to replace all the $ in your 
scripts with ?. That's just a regex after all...


From scott at illogics.org  Sat Apr  1 17:13:31 2006
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 01:13:31 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $
In-Reply-To: <200604012303.40162.larry@wall.org>
References: <200604012303.40162.larry@wall.org>
Message-ID: <20060402011331.GQ4367@illogics.org>

That mutt 'bounce' key is dangerous.  Meant to forward this to the list,
not make it look like Larry actually joined the list, or wosre, look
like I was spoofing Larry's email.  Anyway, this appeared on the 
p6p list this morning.  Enjoy!

-scott


On  0, Larry Wall <larry at wall.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Recently I had time to think about the $ symbol we use in Perl.
> 
> I think Perl has been using the USD symbol for too long, and I'm now sure
> that it's time to replace it. After some research I came to the conclusion 
> that the best fit is the euro symbol (€).
> 
> So, spread the word, Perl 6 will require you to replace all the $ in your 
> scripts with €. That's just a regex after all...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From dwchandler at stilyagin.com  Sun Apr  2 12:17:48 2006
From: dwchandler at stilyagin.com (Darrin Chandler)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 12:17:48 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] PhxBUG April Meeting
Message-ID: <4430235C.3020106@stilyagin.com>

This month's PhxBUG meeting is on the 4th at 7pm, which is this coming 
Tuesday. We'll meet at the Plaid again. Details and map at 
http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/node/36

Darren Spruell will be presenting an introduction to Kerberos V network 
authentication using the Heimdal version in OpenBSD. This should 
translate well to other BSDs or Linux. There should be plenty of time 
for Q&A and general discussion, and food, drink and free wifi are 
available at Plaid.

-- 
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD Users Group
dwchandler at stilyagin.com   |  http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |


From bwmetz at att.com  Mon Apr  3 09:54:02 2006
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:54:02 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $
In-Reply-To: <20060402011331.GQ4367@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367018E879F@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

He's joking right?

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org
[mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott
Walters
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 6:14 PM
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $


That mutt 'bounce' key is dangerous.  Meant to forward this to the list,
not make it look like Larry actually joined the list, or wosre, look
like I was spoofing Larry's email.  Anyway, this appeared on the 
p6p list this morning.  Enjoy!

-scott


On  0, Larry Wall <larry at wall.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Recently I had time to think about the $ symbol we use in Perl.
> 
> I think Perl has been using the USD symbol for too long, and I'm now
sure
> that it's time to replace it. After some research I came to the
conclusion 
> that the best fit is the euro symbol (a'?).
> 
> So, spread the word, Perl 6 will require you to replace all the $ in
your 
> scripts with a'?. That's just a regex after all...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Mon Apr  3 10:22:48 2006
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:22:48 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367018E879F@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <20060402011331.GQ4367@illogics.org>
	<01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367018E879F@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20060403172248.GB21296@thelackthereof.org>

yes.

--Brock :)

On 2006.04.03.11.54, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote:
| He's joking right?
| 
| -----Original Message-----
| From: phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org
| [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott
| Walters
| Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 6:14 PM
| To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
| Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $
| 
| 
| That mutt 'bounce' key is dangerous.  Meant to forward this to the list,
| not make it look like Larry actually joined the list, or wosre, look
| like I was spoofing Larry's email.  Anyway, this appeared on the 
| p6p list this morning.  Enjoy!
| 
| -scott
| 
| 
| On  0, Larry Wall <larry at wall.org> wrote:
| > 
| > 
| > Recently I had time to think about the $ symbol we use in Perl.
| > 
| > I think Perl has been using the USD symbol for too long, and I'm now
| sure
| > that it's time to replace it. After some research I came to the
| conclusion 
| > that the best fit is the euro symbol (a'?).
| > 
| > So, spread the word, Perl 6 will require you to replace all the $ in
| your 
| > scripts with a'?. That's just a regex after all...
| > 
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From jdawgaz at cox.net  Mon Apr  3 18:25:48 2006
From: jdawgaz at cox.net (Jerry Davis)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:25:48 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367018E879F@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <20060402011331.GQ4367@illogics.org>
	<01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367018E879F@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20060403182548.302ff3c0@aragorn.home.com>

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:54:02 -0500
"Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:

> He's joking right?

look at the time April 1st - April Fools!

anyway Larry knows that this would break 100% of the scripts out there,
so it wouldn't be done no matter what.

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org
> [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott
> Walters
> Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 6:14 PM
> To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] replacement of $
> 
> 
> That mutt 'bounce' key is dangerous.  Meant to forward this to the
> list, not make it look like Larry actually joined the list, or wosre,
> look like I was spoofing Larry's email.  Anyway, this appeared on the 
> p6p list this morning.  Enjoy!
> 
> -scott
> 
> 
> On  0, Larry Wall <larry at wall.org> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Recently I had time to think about the $ symbol we use in Perl.
> > 
> > I think Perl has been using the USD symbol for too long, and I'm now
> sure
> > that it's time to replace it. After some research I came to the
> conclusion 
> > that the best fit is the euro symbol (a'?).
> > 
> > So, spread the word, Perl 6 will require you to replace all the $ in
> your 
> > scripts with a'?. That's just a regex after all...
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


-- 
Hobbit Name: Pimpernel Loamsdown
Registered Linux User: 275424
 
This email's random fortune: "The four building blocks of the universe
are fire, water, gravel and vinyl."
		-- Dave Barry

From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Apr  4 12:37:08 2006
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:37:08 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Natural Language Principles in Perl
In-Reply-To: <441E6087.4010809@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367019197D9@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Just a little something I ran across today by accident that I thought
I'd share and some of you would appreciate.  Interesting view of Perl by
Larry from a "natural language" perspective.  I'd never seen this
write-up before, so may be old hat for many of you but an interesting
read nonetheless.

http://www.wall.org/~larry/natural.html

Bobby

From corey_s at streamreel.com  Fri Apr  7 13:54:34 2006
From: corey_s at streamreel.com (Corey Saltiel)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:54:34 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?
Message-ID: <200604071354.34679.corey_s@streamreel.com>


Where do you guys place your subroutines in scripts?

And what do you usually prefer to call the subroutine that kicks things off, 
i.e. 'main()', 'begin()'?

I've always put my subroutines at the top, right after the basic setup logic
( declaring pragmas and modules, and whatever global vars, etc ), then I 
throw  the call  to the entering/main subroutine at the very bottom of the
script, underneath the subroutines -- but I tend to be switch between 
calling the entering subroutine either: main() or begin() - out of sheer 
indecision. 

Like so:

#!/usr/bin/perl
use warnings;
use strict;

use ACME;
use Blah;

my ( $globals, $go, $here ); # minimal or non-existant

$globals = '';

$go = '';

$here = ''


sub foo { }

sub bar { }

sub snafu {}

sub begin {}


begin();


Anyhow, just curious!  Obviously mostly a matter of subjective opinion, but
interesting none-the-less.


Beers,

Corey

From bwmetz at att.com  Fri Apr  7 14:02:19 2006
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:02:19 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?
In-Reply-To: <200604071354.34679.corey_s@streamreel.com>
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670196B1EF@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

It's Perl so anything goes and we won't shoot you for it, well some of
us anyway.

That said, "bottom" to your 1st ? and "no" to your 2nd.  I find those
folks who came from a C background or studied programming more in
college tend to start with functions @ the top.  I was one of those, but
I always eschewed having to scroll through pages of code just to get to
the begining, search features or not.  But that's just me.

B

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org
[mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org]On Behalf Of Corey
Saltiel
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 1:55 PM
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?



Where do you guys place your subroutines in scripts?

And what do you usually prefer to call the subroutine that kicks things
off, 
i.e. 'main()', 'begin()'?

I've always put my subroutines at the top, right after the basic setup
logic
( declaring pragmas and modules, and whatever global vars, etc ), then I

throw  the call  to the entering/main subroutine at the very bottom of
the
script, underneath the subroutines -- but I tend to be switch between 
calling the entering subroutine either: main() or begin() - out of sheer

indecision. 

Like so:

#!/usr/bin/perl
use warnings;
use strict;

use ACME;
use Blah;

my ( $globals, $go, $here ); # minimal or non-existant

$globals = '';

$go = '';

$here = ''


sub foo { }

sub bar { }

sub snafu {}

sub begin {}


begin();


Anyhow, just curious!  Obviously mostly a matter of subjective opinion,
but
interesting none-the-less.


Beers,

Corey
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Apr  7 16:38:48 2006
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:38:48 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670196B1EF@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <200604071354.34679.corey_s@streamreel.com>
	<01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670196B1EF@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20060407233848.GF12017@thelackthereof.org>

I think I got into the habit of putting a sub called main() at the
bottom through influence of C and Pascal. In Pascal you can't do it any
other way.

That said, I don't stick to it consistently, and sometimes my main logic
(which might only be a few lines) I put outside of anything right at the
top.

But I've not been known for my "Best Practice"s. :)

--Brock

On 2006.04.07.16.02, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote:
| It's Perl so anything goes and we won't shoot you for it, well some of
| us anyway.
| 
| That said, "bottom" to your 1st ? and "no" to your 2nd.  I find those
| folks who came from a C background or studied programming more in
| college tend to start with functions @ the top.  I was one of those, but
| I always eschewed having to scroll through pages of code just to get to
| the begining, search features or not.  But that's just me.
| 
| B
| 
| -----Original Message-----
| From: phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org
| [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org]On Behalf Of Corey
| Saltiel
| Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 1:55 PM
| To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
| Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?
| 
| 
| 
| Where do you guys place your subroutines in scripts?
| 
| And what do you usually prefer to call the subroutine that kicks things
| off, 
| i.e. 'main()', 'begin()'?
| 
| I've always put my subroutines at the top, right after the basic setup
| logic
| ( declaring pragmas and modules, and whatever global vars, etc ), then I
| 
| throw  the call  to the entering/main subroutine at the very bottom of
| the
| script, underneath the subroutines -- but I tend to be switch between 
| calling the entering subroutine either: main() or begin() - out of sheer
| 
| indecision. 
| 
| Like so:
| 
| #!/usr/bin/perl
| use warnings;
| use strict;
| 
| use ACME;
| use Blah;
| 
| my ( $globals, $go, $here ); # minimal or non-existant
| 
| $globals = '';
| 
| $go = '';
| 
| $here = ''
| 
| 
| sub foo { }
| 
| sub bar { }
| 
| sub snafu {}
| 
| sub begin {}
| 
| 
| begin();
| 
| 
| Anyhow, just curious!  Obviously mostly a matter of subjective opinion,
| but
| interesting none-the-less.
| 
| 
| Beers,
| 
| Corey
| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Fri Apr  7 17:48:12 2006
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 00:48:12 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?
In-Reply-To: <200604071354.34679.corey_s@streamreel.com>
References: <200604071354.34679.corey_s@streamreel.com>
Message-ID: <20060408004812.GT4367@illogics.org>

In the middle, via closures.  

On  0, Corey Saltiel <corey_s at streamreel.com> wrote:
> 
> Where do you guys place your subroutines in scripts?
> 
> And what do you usually prefer to call the subroutine that kicks things off, 
> i.e. 'main()', 'begin()'?
> 
> I've always put my subroutines at the top, right after the basic setup logic
> ( declaring pragmas and modules, and whatever global vars, etc ), then I 
> throw  the call  to the entering/main subroutine at the very bottom of the
> script, underneath the subroutines -- but I tend to be switch between 
> calling the entering subroutine either: main() or begin() - out of sheer 
> indecision. 
> 
> Like so:
> 
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> use warnings;
> use strict;
> 
> use ACME;
> use Blah;
> 
> my ( $globals, $go, $here ); # minimal or non-existant
> 
> $globals = '';
> 
> $go = '';
> 
> $here = ''
> 
> 
> sub foo { }
> 
> sub bar { }
> 
> sub snafu {}
> 
> sub begin {}
> 
> 
> begin();
> 
> 
> Anyhow, just curious!  Obviously mostly a matter of subjective opinion, but
> interesting none-the-less.
> 
> 
> Beers,
> 
> Corey
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Fri Apr  7 20:03:43 2006
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:03:43 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?
In-Reply-To: <20060407233848.GF12017@thelackthereof.org>
References: <200604071354.34679.corey_s@streamreel.com>
	<01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670196B1EF@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
	<20060407233848.GF12017@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <53895ACE-E045-4BC9-9927-243490AC13F9@highwire.stanford.edu>

To be honest, I don't put a main() around the main code. It's a  
script, so it's just going to run top to bottom. On the other hand, I  
almost always put any functions into other modules. That way everyone  
at my office can reuse them without having to copy code.

It also makes a nice separation: code that does the work goes into a  
module, wrapper/driving code goes into a script. And if I need a CGI  
that does the same thing as a script, all I have to do is write a new  
wrapper around the already-written module.

But it's Perl, so TIMTOWTDI. Yay!

-- Mike

On Apr 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Brock wrote:

> I think I got into the habit of putting a sub called main() at the
> bottom through influence of C and Pascal. In Pascal you can't do it  
> any
> other way.
>
> That said, I don't stick to it consistently, and sometimes my main  
> logic
> (which might only be a few lines) I put outside of anything right  
> at the
> top.
>
> But I've not been known for my "Best Practice"s. :)
>
> --Brock
>
> On 2006.04.07.16.02, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote:
> | It's Perl so anything goes and we won't shoot you for it, well  
> some of
> | us anyway.
> |
> | That said, "bottom" to your 1st ? and "no" to your 2nd.  I find  
> those
> | folks who came from a C background or studied programming more in
> | college tend to start with functions @ the top.  I was one of  
> those, but
> | I always eschewed having to scroll through pages of code just to  
> get to
> | the begining, search features or not.  But that's just me.
> |
> | B
> |
> | -----Original Message-----
> | From: phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org
> | [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces+bwmetz=att.com at pm.org]On Behalf Of Corey
> | Saltiel
> | Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 1:55 PM
> | To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | Subject: [Phoenix-pm] poll: top or bottom?
> |
> |
> |
> | Where do you guys place your subroutines in scripts?
> |
> | And what do you usually prefer to call the subroutine that kicks  
> things
> | off,
> | i.e. 'main()', 'begin()'?
> |
> | I've always put my subroutines at the top, right after the basic  
> setup
> | logic
> | ( declaring pragmas and modules, and whatever global vars, etc ),  
> then I
> |
> | throw  the call  to the entering/main subroutine at the very  
> bottom of
> | the
> | script, underneath the subroutines -- but I tend to be switch  
> between
> | calling the entering subroutine either: main() or begin() - out  
> of sheer
> |
> | indecision.
> |
> | Like so:
> |
> | #!/usr/bin/perl
> | use warnings;
> | use strict;
> |
> | use ACME;
> | use Blah;
> |
> | my ( $globals, $go, $here ); # minimal or non-existant
> |
> | $globals = '';
> |
> | $go = '';
> |
> | $here = ''
> |
> |
> | sub foo { }
> |
> | sub bar { }
> |
> | sub snafu {}
> |
> | sub begin {}
> |
> |
> | begin();
> |
> |
> | Anyhow, just curious!  Obviously mostly a matter of subjective  
> opinion,
> | but
> | interesting none-the-less.
> |
> |
> | Beers,
> |
> | Corey
> | _______________________________________________
> | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | _______________________________________________
> | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Fri Apr  7 20:07:51 2006
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:07:51 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] OO Perl for idiots?
Message-ID: <317B949A-D782-4BD2-881B-E430C0698630@highwire.stanford.edu>

Today I was told that a couple of my co-workers said they "couldn't  
understand object oriented Perl." Emphasis on the *couldn't*. Bah.  
They aren't even trying. They learned Perl 3 many years ago and never  
bothered to update their coding styles.

Anyone have a cluebat I can borrow? I've already thrown the Panther  
book and Perl Best Practices at them and been completely rebuffed.  
I'm sure that they mainly don't want to even try, but I feel like I  
have to at least make an attempt to teach.

(These are the same people who refuse to use DBI and keep going with  
Sybase::DBlib. They also use modules so rarely that all their code is  
monolithic and duplicated in every script. And of course no one else  
can support it, because it's all hidden away outside of our CVS tree.)

Hrm, perhaps I should just give up.

Some days I really wish I had hiring & firing authority...

just ranting,
-- Mike


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com  Sat Apr  8 10:29:51 2006
From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 10:29:51 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm]  OO Perl for idiots?
References: <317B949A-D782-4BD2-881B-E430C0698630@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <17463.62223.515521.830829@magnitude.grueslayer.com>



\_ SMTP quoth Michael Friedman on 4/7/2006 20:07 as having spake thusly:
\_
\_ And of course no one else  
\_ can support it, because it's all hidden away outside of our CVS tree.)

Ah, then you have grounds for Filing a Policy Violation that your
Responsibility is to Report or anyone reading the archives would have
grounds for Filing a Policy Violation on you.  :-)

David

From scott at illogics.org  Sat Apr  8 12:36:42 2006
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:36:42 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] OO Perl for idiots?
In-Reply-To: <317B949A-D782-4BD2-881B-E430C0698630@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <317B949A-D782-4BD2-881B-E430C0698630@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20060408193642.GW4367@illogics.org>

Hey Michael,

IT changes rapidly.  Anyone who cannot *continue* to assimilate new
skills and adapt to new ideas quickly finds themselves irrelavent.
They might be able to peddle antique wares at this job, but when
the time comes to find another one (for whatever reason), they're 
going to find themselves in interview after interview where the
primary focus is OO design, and they're going to find themselves
not only changing their tune in a hurry to stay off the bread line,
but trying and failing to make up for lost time.  And I'm not just
saying this to be mean.  I've been through a lot of interview
processes in these past 5 or so years, and there's an unmistakable
theme:  employers are tired of having to throw away code and they
want programmers who are also "architects" and are able to design
code that's reusable, adaptable, and scalable.  There's no place
in this world for people who write code full of hardcodes, 
monolithic functions, non-data driven (no datastructures), doesn't
rapidly assimilate usage scenarios, etc.  No body wants that. 
The fact that they made it in to a job before their present
employer figured that out doesn't make this any less true.  So,
wish them luck for me.  

-scott

On  0, Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Today I was told that a couple of my co-workers said they "couldn't  
> understand object oriented Perl." Emphasis on the *couldn't*. Bah.  
> They aren't even trying. They learned Perl 3 many years ago and never  
> bothered to update their coding styles.
> 
> Anyone have a cluebat I can borrow? I've already thrown the Panther  
> book and Perl Best Practices at them and been completely rebuffed.  
> I'm sure that they mainly don't want to even try, but I feel like I  
> have to at least make an attempt to teach.
> 
> (These are the same people who refuse to use DBI and keep going with  
> Sybase::DBlib. They also use modules so rarely that all their code is  
> monolithic and duplicated in every script. And of course no one else  
> can support it, because it's all hidden away outside of our CVS tree.)
> 
> Hrm, perhaps I should just give up.
> 
> Some days I really wish I had hiring & firing authority...
> 
> just ranting,
> -- Mike
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
> Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
> FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Apr 11 10:45:40 2006
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:45:40 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] April Meeting of the Phoenix Ruby Users Group
Message-ID: <20060411174540.GA1158@thelackthereof.org>

I forgot to forward this sooner... there is a Ruby users group meeting
tonight which you may be intersted in. Below is the info. I am thinking
of doing a talk on Inline::*, including Inline::Ruby at either our
meeting or maybe a joint Perl/Ruby group meeting. But not tonight.

Our next meeting will be on Thursday April 20 somewhere in Scottsdale
unless there are objections. Details to follow in the next day or two.

--Brock

----- Forwarded message from james.britt at gmail.com -----

From: james.britt at gmail.com
To: Phoenix Ruby Users Group <phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Phoenix Ruby Group] [ANN] April Meeting of the Phoenix Ruby Users
 Group
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:03:10 -0700
User-Agent: G2/0.2
Reply-To: phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com
Sender: phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com


The Phoenix Ruby Users Group will hold its monthly meeting on Monday,
April 10, 2006.

Where:  Cyclone Commerce Inc
        8388 E Hartford Dr # 100
        Scottsdale, AZ

When:   10 April, 6:15 pm  - ~8:30 pm

Topics: I believe we'll have a presentation on what's new in Rails 1.1.

        Plus I'd like to show how to get started using Ruby's
        built-in unit testing  library.

        And I'm sure we'll make stuff up as we go.

        If you think you want to present something, great.
        Got Ruby questions you need answered? We can do that too.

Afterward, plan on heading out to the Havana Cafe
(http://rubyurl.com/Xwo)  for Cuban food and more geek socializing.

See The PRUG site (http://rubyurl.com/R7h) for meeting details and a
map.

Drop in on the Google Group, too:

http://groups.google.com/group/phoenix-ruby


--
James Britt

"Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally
 for machines to execute."
  - H. Abelson and G. Sussman
  (in "The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs)


--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Phoenix Ruby Users Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to phoenix-ruby-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/phoenix-ruby
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---


----- End forwarded message -----

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Apr 11 19:08:03 2006
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:08:03 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] April Meeting of the Phoenix Ruby Users Group
In-Reply-To: <20060411174540.GA1158@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20060411174540.GA1158@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20060412020803.GC1158@thelackthereof.org>

Hmm... that meeting was _yesterday_. So my forward was especially late!

--Brock

On 2006.04.11.10.45, Brock wrote:
| I forgot to forward this sooner... there is a Ruby users group meeting
| tonight which you may be intersted in. Below is the info. I am thinking
| of doing a talk on Inline::*, including Inline::Ruby at either our
| meeting or maybe a joint Perl/Ruby group meeting. But not tonight.
| 
| Our next meeting will be on Thursday April 20 somewhere in Scottsdale
| unless there are objections. Details to follow in the next day or two.
| 
| --Brock
| 
| ----- Forwarded message from james.britt at gmail.com -----
| 
| From: james.britt at gmail.com
| To: Phoenix Ruby Users Group <phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com>
| Subject: [Phoenix Ruby Group] [ANN] April Meeting of the Phoenix Ruby Users
|  Group
| Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:03:10 -0700
| User-Agent: G2/0.2
| Reply-To: phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com
| Sender: phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com
| 
| 
| The Phoenix Ruby Users Group will hold its monthly meeting on Monday,
| April 10, 2006.
| 
| Where:  Cyclone Commerce Inc
|         8388 E Hartford Dr # 100
|         Scottsdale, AZ
| 
| When:   10 April, 6:15 pm  - ~8:30 pm
| 
| Topics: I believe we'll have a presentation on what's new in Rails 1.1.
| 
|         Plus I'd like to show how to get started using Ruby's
|         built-in unit testing  library.
| 
|         And I'm sure we'll make stuff up as we go.
| 
|         If you think you want to present something, great.
|         Got Ruby questions you need answered? We can do that too.
| 
| Afterward, plan on heading out to the Havana Cafe
| (http://rubyurl.com/Xwo)  for Cuban food and more geek socializing.
| 
| See The PRUG site (http://rubyurl.com/R7h) for meeting details and a
| map.
| 
| Drop in on the Google Group, too:
| 
| http://groups.google.com/group/phoenix-ruby
| 
| 
| --
| James Britt
| 
| "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally
|  for machines to execute."
|   - H. Abelson and G. Sussman
|   (in "The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs)
| 
| 
| --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
| You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Phoenix Ruby Users Group" group.
| To post to this group, send email to phoenix-ruby at googlegroups.com
| To unsubscribe from this group, send email to phoenix-ruby-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
| For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/phoenix-ruby
| -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
| 
| 
| ----- End forwarded message -----
| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Tue Apr 11 19:59:18 2006
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 02:59:18 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] April Meeting of the Phoenix Ruby Users Group
In-Reply-To: <20060412020803.GC1158@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20060411174540.GA1158@thelackthereof.org>
	<20060412020803.GC1158@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20060412025918.GY4367@illogics.org>

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> Hmm... that meeting was _yesterday_. So my forward was especially late!
> 
> --Brock

I should have guessed since I've been begging you to forward this for three
days now ;)

-scott

From intertwingled at qwest.net  Thu Apr 13 20:22:57 2006
From: intertwingled at qwest.net (Anthony R. Nemmer)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:22:57 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Tempe / East Valley Perlmongers Meeting
Message-ID: <443F1591.3000508@qwest.net>

There will be a Tempe / East Valley Perlmongers Meeting this month, on 
the third Tuesday, the 17th of April, at 7 PM. at Tempe Four Peaks 
Brewery.  All are welcome to come.

http://tempe.pm.org/

Tony

-- 

I always have coffee when I watch radar!

From intertwingled at qwest.net  Fri Apr 14 15:37:11 2006
From: intertwingled at qwest.net (Anthony R. Nemmer)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:37:11 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Tempe / East Valley Perlmongers Meeting, on the 18th!
Message-ID: <44402417.3070600@qwest.net>


There will be a Tempe / East Valley Perlmongers Meeting this month, on 
the third Tuesday, the 18TH of April, at 7 PM. at Tempe Four Peaks 
Brewery.  All are welcome to come.

http://tempe.pm.org/

Tony


-- 

I always have coffee when I watch radar!

From scott at illogics.org  Sat Apr 15 01:33:27 2006
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 08:33:27 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [jhietaniemi@gmail.com: code complexity measures /
	software metrics (Coverity)]
Message-ID: <20060415083326.GG4367@illogics.org>

----- Forwarded message from Jarkko Hietaniemi <jhietaniemi at gmail.com> -----

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Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:19:30 +0300
From: Jarkko Hietaniemi <jhietaniemi at gmail.com>
Reply-To: jhi at iki.fi
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201)
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To: Perl 5 Porters <perl5-porters at perl.org>
Subject: code complexity measures  / software metrics (Coverity)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3988
Lines: 92

Another good thing that Coverity (and other static code inspection
tools) finds out for us are code complexity measures.  They are numbers
that tell how perv^Wcomplex some piece of code is, usually (rather
naturally) at the granularity of functions.

The exact formulation, derivation, comparison, and interpretation of
the various measures is of course subject to much heated debate and
academic name-calling, but I think the general guide is that the higher
the number, the scarier the code, and the more likely it is to contain
and accumulate errors because of the sheer complexity.

The obvious thing to reducde the complexity is to slice, dice, and
refactor the scary big pieces into smaller cuddlier pieces, that might
even fit to one editor window, and one's brain.  Of course, these are
just numbers, and one shouldn't immediately fire up an editor because
of just some numbers, but they do give an idea of where scary code lies.

The code complexity measures are computed from the structure of the
code: the flow control graphs, the number of operators, the size of
expressions, and the like.

I am actually rather surprised that C compilers don't do give
these various code complexity measures, they would be by far the
most natural place to put these computations, a natural side product
of what compilers do.  (Of course compilers have their limitations:
Unix compilers don't look at Win32 code, for example.) I don't use
Eclipse but I've heard that it might have some plugins that compute
some of these metrics.

Coverity computes the cyclomatic (McCabe) complexity [1],
the Halstead effort [2] and the Halstead error estimate [3].
If you don't have Coverity access, here is one tool available
for McCabe complexity [4]:

Where one does draw the line of "bad" is tricky (see above
about academic name-calling), but here I chose >= 25 for McCabe [5]
and for Halstead effort >= 5000 [6] (there are almost 3400 functions
in the Perl source, so the complete list would be long):

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity
    http://www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions/cyclomatic_body.html
[2] http://www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions/halstead_body.html
[3] http://mdp.ivv.nasa.gov/halstead_metrics.html
[4] http://packages.debian.org/unstable/devel/pmccabe


[5]
Perl_keyword perl/toke.c 878
walk perl/x2p/walk.c 136
prewalk perl/x2p/walk.c 108
Perl_magic_get perl/mg.c 107
Perl_magic_set perl/mg.c 94
Perl_is_gv_magical perl/gv.c 79
Perl_moreswitches perl/perl.c 61
S_looks_like_bool perl/opmini.c 59
S_looks_like_bool perl/op.c 59
S_scalar_mod_type perl/opmini.c 37
S_scalar_mod_type perl/op.c 37
constant perl/ext/Compress/Raw/Zlib/constants.h 35
constant_7 perl/ext/I18N/Langinfo/const-c.inc 33
Perl_magic_len perl/mg.c 33
Perl_get_vtbl perl/util.c 32
constant perl/ext/File/Glob/const-c.inc 32
constant_5 perl/ext/I18N/Langinfo/const-c.inc 31
constant perl/ext/GDBM_File/const-c.inc 30
cc_opclass perl/ext/B/B.xs 30
S_reg perl/regcomp.c 29
S_reg perl/ext/re/re_comp.c 29
store_scalar perl/ext/Storable/Storable.xs 29
Perl_is_utf8_char perl/utf8.c 25

[6]
Perl_keyword perl/toke.c 1,280,530.00
walk perl/x2p/walk.c 333,967.00
prewalk perl/x2p/walk.c 140,888.00
Perl_magic_set perl/mg.c 61,968.50
Perl_magic_get perl/mg.c 35,199.00
store_scalar perl/ext/Storable/Storable.xs 20,516.30
S_reg perl/regcomp.c 13,092.40
S_reg perl/ext/re/re_comp.c 13,092.40
Perl_pp_leavesublv perl/pp_hot.c 12,462.50
deflateCopy perl/ext/Compress/Raw/Zlib/deflate.c 11,863.90
Perl_pp_leavesub perl/pp_hot.c 10,714.70
Perl_moreswitches perl/perl.c 10,437.20
XS_Digest__MD5_md5 perl/ext/Digest/MD5/MD5.c 9,662.28
Perl_boot_core_UNIVERSAL perl/universal.c 9,182.77
XS_Internals_SvREADONLY perl/universal.c 8,950.71
constant_7 perl/ext/I18N/Langinfo/const-c.inc 8,313.48
constant_5 perl/ext/I18N/Langinfo/const-c.inc 7,501.25
store_tied perl/ext/Storable/Storable.xs 6,494.45
retrieve perl/ext/Storable/Storable.xs 6,476.36
Perl_newSVhek perl/sv.c 6,194.19
Perl_pp_exists perl/pp.c 5,269.37
----- End forwarded message -----

From intertwingled at qwest.net  Wed Apr 19 22:16:55 2006
From: intertwingled at qwest.net (Anthony R. Nemmer)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:16:55 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] New meetings will be announced...
Message-ID: <44471947.5050902@qwest.net>

A change in Tempe / East Valley meeting scheduling... new meetings will 
be announced as people express interest in having a meeting..  More info 
can be found at

http://tempe.pm.org

Thanks,
Tony

-- 

I always have coffee when I watch radar!