From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Sep  2 09:52:53 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:52:53 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>
	<20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>


That place seems pretty good... still not great for formal presentations
though. They were quite open to us coming, so I'm going to go through
the calendar and pick us out a meeting soon I think.

Does anyone have a contact at SCC? I need someone (a teacher or staff)
to 'sponsor' our meetings there. Otherwise it costs $$ (just like the
library).

On another note, progress is being made on the wiki. stay tuned. That is
of course, if anyone even gets this... the mailing list doesn't seem to
work. :(

--Brock

On 2005.08.28.15.16, Brock wrote:
| 
| Cool... I have a friend who likes that place, and I've even been there
| once. Right down the road from where I work so I'll go over tomorrow and
| talk to them. I've also been talking to SCC to see about space there,
| and began to make some progress (pointed toward someone who can actually
| make such decisions) on Friday.
| 
| --Brock
| 
| On 2005.08.28.14.44, Scott Walters wrote:
| | http://www.countercultureaz.com/
| | http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&address=2330+E.+McDowell+Rd&city=Phoenix&state=AZ&zipcode=85006
| | 
| | 24 hours, free WiFi, lots of room, neat joint... 
| | 
| | Could be a good meeting location.
| | 
| | -scott
| | 
| | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| | > 
| | > Interesting site.
| | > 
| | > --Brock
| | > 
| | > On 2005.08.26.22.29, Scott Walters wrote:
| | > | http://thedailywtf.com/forums/41672/ShowPost.aspx
| | > | _______________________________________________
| | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
| | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep  2 10:19:02 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 10:19:02 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>
	<20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>

Hi Brock,

I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
conference tables...

... but as it turns out, I know two instructors at SCC, one of them the
recently-former air department chair. Next time I go rock climbing with
her I'll ask her for her thoughts on the matter =)

I know the hours are a bit restricted as they're doing budget screwiness
with airconditioning. They've cancelled a few workshops already just
because they aren't willing to run the air conditioning -- workshops
students paid for. Gah.

Sorry you have to look at my code. TinyWiki has been described as a
"love letter to Satan". >=) 

Seriously, though, I'm happy to help with the code -- and good work
on getting the files out! 

Regardless, when it's running, I'll update it with meeting suggestions
from the paper notes I've been taking.

Best,
-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> That place seems pretty good... still not great for formal presentations
> though. They were quite open to us coming, so I'm going to go through
> the calendar and pick us out a meeting soon I think.
> 
> Does anyone have a contact at SCC? I need someone (a teacher or staff)
> to 'sponsor' our meetings there. Otherwise it costs $$ (just like the
> library).
> 
> On another note, progress is being made on the wiki. stay tuned. That is
> of course, if anyone even gets this... the mailing list doesn't seem to
> work. :(
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.08.28.15.16, Brock wrote:
> | 
> | Cool... I have a friend who likes that place, and I've even been there
> | once. Right down the road from where I work so I'll go over tomorrow and
> | talk to them. I've also been talking to SCC to see about space there,
> | and began to make some progress (pointed toward someone who can actually
> | make such decisions) on Friday.
> | 
> | --Brock
> | 
> | On 2005.08.28.14.44, Scott Walters wrote:
> | | http://www.countercultureaz.com/
> | | http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&address=2330+E.+McDowell+Rd&city=Phoenix&state=AZ&zipcode=85006
> | | 
> | | 24 hours, free WiFi, lots of room, neat joint... 
> | | 
> | | Could be a good meeting location.
> | | 
> | | -scott
> | | 
> | | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | | > 
> | | > Interesting site.
> | | > 
> | | > --Brock
> | | > 
> | | > On 2005.08.26.22.29, Scott Walters wrote:
> | | > | http://thedailywtf.com/forums/41672/ShowPost.aspx
> | | > | _______________________________________________
> | | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | _______________________________________________
> | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Sep  2 10:29:47 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 10:29:47 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>
	<20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050902172947.GF3643@thelackthereof.org>

Scott wrote
| Regardless, when it's running, I'll update it with meeting suggestions
| from the paper notes I've been taking.

Its running! Only nobody knows because the DNS isn't pointed at its new
home. So if anyone wants to see it edit your /etc/hosts file (or
equivalent) and add "66.111.62.88 phoenix.pm.org". I have no idea when
DNS will be pointed correctly.

--Brock


From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Sep  2 11:06:56 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:06:56 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Proposal
Message-ID: <20050902180656.GG3643@thelackthereof.org>


Lets meet at CounterCulture (countercultureaz.com) on Tue September 13,
2005 @ 7:00pm. I have two books to give away (Perl Best Practices and
Advanced Perl Programming 2nd Ed) and we have a second copy of Perl Best
Practices to auction I believe. Topic suggestions welcome, and I'll come
up with a list once I see that people can actually make it to this
time/location.

Counter Culture is located at 2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ 85006.
That is near McDowell and 24th St. They are open 24x7 and have pretty
nice chairs/tables and free wireless.

--Brock


From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep  2 12:30:24 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:30:24 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050813001140.GD3570@thelackthereof.org>
	<7d99b54505081608344e9d4093@mail.gmail.com>
	<7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>

Brock, Everyone,

Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:

* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, Doug)
* cleaned up in general

Everyone,

phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're hoping
to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
to update their /etc/host file >=)

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>
> OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org
> to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the request
> to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
> everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
> 
> --Brock
> 

From billn at billn.net  Fri Sep  2 12:31:54 2005
From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050813001140.GD3570@thelackthereof.org>
	<7d99b54505081608344e9d4093@mail.gmail.com>
	<7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>


You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)

- billn

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:

> Brock, Everyone,
>
> Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
>
> * pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
> * pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
> * made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
> * updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
> * marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, Doug)
> * cleaned up in general
>
> Everyone,
>
> phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're hoping
> to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
> trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
> to update their /etc/host file >=)
>
> -scott
>
> On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>>
>> OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org
>> to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the request
>> to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
>> everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
>>
>> --Brock
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>

From medicldr at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 12:32:19 2005
From: medicldr at gmail.com (Craig Frooninckx)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:32:19 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050902180656.GG3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050902180656.GG3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <7d99b54505090212327acbd96e@mail.gmail.com>

I won't be able to make this meeting (I teach on Tues and Thr nights). I'll 
try to find a way to send the PBP and Programming Perl (I think that was the 
other one). Remember the proceeds of the auction are going directly to the 
Perl Foundation.

On another note, I know an instrcutor at GCC, which may give us the option 
of GCC-North as well.

On 9/2/05, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Lets meet at CounterCulture (countercultureaz.com<http://countercultureaz.com>) 
> on Tue September 13,
> 2005 @ 7:00pm. I have two books to give away (Perl Best Practices and
> Advanced Perl Programming 2nd Ed) and we have a second copy of Perl Best
> Practices to auction I believe. Topic suggestions welcome, and I'll come
> up with a list once I see that people can actually make it to this
> time/location.
> 
> Counter Culture is located at 2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ 85006.
> That is near McDowell and 24th St. They are open 24x7 and have pretty
> nice chairs/tables and free wireless.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>
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From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep  2 12:41:49 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:41:49 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
References: <7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
Message-ID: <20050902194149.GU15273@illogics.org>

I never estimated your ambition in the first place. I didn't realize you
were interested. But this one-line email sounds like it has a story
behind it. Care to tell, billn? Did you pull some strings for us?

-scott

On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
> 
> You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)
> 
> - billn
> 
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:
> 
> >Brock, Everyone,
> >
> >Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
> >
> >* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
> >* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
> >* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
> >* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
> >* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, Doug)
> >* cleaned up in general
> >
> >Everyone,
> >
> >phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're hoping
> >to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
> >trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
> >to update their /etc/host file >=)
> >
> >-scott
> >
> >On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org
> >>to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the request
> >>to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
> >>everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
> >>
> >>--Brock
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> >

From billn at billn.net  Fri Sep  2 12:39:09 2005
From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <20050902194149.GU15273@illogics.org>
References: <7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
	<20050902194149.GU15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021238500.31493@bacchus.billn.net>


I was referring to:
> Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
> to update their /etc/host file >=)

=)

- billn

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:

> I never estimated your ambition in the first place. I didn't realize you
> were interested. But this one-line email sounds like it has a story
> behind it. Care to tell, billn? Did you pull some strings for us?
>
> -scott
>
> On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
>>
>> You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)
>>
>> - billn
>>
>> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:
>>
>>> Brock, Everyone,
>>>
>>> Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
>>>
>>> * pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
>>> * pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
>>> * made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
>>> * updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
>>> * marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, Doug)
>>> * cleaned up in general
>>>
>>> Everyone,
>>>
>>> phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're hoping
>>> to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
>>> trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
>>> to update their /etc/host file >=)
>>>
>>> -scott
>>>
>>> On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org
>>>> to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the request
>>>> to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
>>>> everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
>>>>
>>>> --Brock
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Phoenix-pm mailing list
>>> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>>>
>

From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep  2 12:50:26 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:50:26 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Proposal
In-Reply-To: <7d99b54505090212327acbd96e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050902180656.GG3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<7d99b54505090212327acbd96e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050902195026.GV15273@illogics.org>

Meeting sounds good. For the future, I'd like to dig up a Tempe location,
perhaps Coffee Planation, perhaps a room at the Noble Science Library,
and do a downtown Tempe/ASU location. We might recruit some students
if we post flyers on those billboard things they have around campus.
Just a thought.

As for the topic of this meeting, I know I'm missing stuff, but appeneded is 
the list so far. If I get replies of presentation offers or requests, including
ones I've seen but lost, I'll update the list and the site.

Briefly, though, I'm itching to do Perl6::Contexts (introducing the object
context, reference context, numeric, and string contexts from Perl 6, now
available in Perl 5, for more concise, more error-free code!) and I promised
to do a "The Making of Perl 6 Now".

Oh, if anyone is interested, I now have an IRC<->MUD proxy that pretends to be
an IRC server so people can MUD from IRC clients. It's up on and off as I work
on it, but http://weehours.net to create a character, then /server weehours.net
to connect. Could do a presentation on that, too. And if people wait a while,
I'll have an alternative front-end to Perl, so you can run Logo in Perl 
along side your Perl 5 code and using Perl 5 modules.

If I present, we should do at least one other presentation so prevent me
from monopolizing the group.

-scott


Symposium: Mail a topic to the list - templating, database UI, etc - and ask that anyone who has done that before prepair a brief (10m) presentation on how *they* solve the problem. Kurt, in a previous email, suggest several topics like this that each programmer does their own way - it would just be a matter of picking between them. How one person does something has limited merit, but a smorgasbord of solutions has far more. Next time after this meeting, a series of 2, 3, 4, or 5 10m "how I solve this" presentations and took the rest of the time with social/contest, we should do okey. "Something that everyone rolls their own of" discussions: Kurt said, "Sounds good; another might be file-transfer/file-synchronisation scripts. If I had a dollar for every file-transfer script I've hacked together, I'd... well, I'd have well over $15 ;)"

Coincide meeting with Slashdot meetup, Java users group, PHP UG, Linux UG, etc. Essentially, socialize ourselves with other programming language user groups and free software user groups in town. It has been suggested that this be done as bonus or alternate meetings in addition to our current schedule, beyond the two meetings a month we're sustaining now.

More contests: Most people show up without laptops, but I like the idea of little code challenges in general. The ICFP was lots of fun this year - write a client to control a robot that shuttle packages around and push other robots into the water. Its a bit much for an hour or two assignment, but avoiding rote chores like fetching web pages is good sense. Perhaps breaking people up into teams and taking along a few extra laptops. Perhaps follow the Iron Chef - "todays theme ingredient will be global substitutions with the execute flag!". Solutions need not be done using Perl - the Perl community has just as much to learn from solutions in other languages as ones done in Perl. Whether the assignments are to write programes designed to compete based on usefulness or obscurity, live people writing code on the stop is exciting =) Kurt: "*grin* I like the Iron Chef idea.. "Next challenge, Sienna Camel says you must code using only characters found in hex!" (0-9 & A-F) Besides, some of these could very well be a 'write it at home' kind of thing, and people can team up if they like or go it alone."

Sienna Camel: Specific version of coding contests: like Iron Chef: program with some theme - lack of paranthesis, do something that a module normally does, demonstrate the best use of a module, and anything else we can think of. Anything with a theme that is judged subjectively.

Peer help hour: code reviers, bug workarounds, debugging, brain storming, resource location, and so forth will be provided at no charge as part of the standard meeting format, even when PM joins other user groups. Just bring your question or listing and mention to Doug or whomever else has hair in strange places and it'll be scheduled in.

Bring-in-a-module: assign everyone to show up with a CPAN module that may or may be known to the group but they found interesting for whatever reason. It could be something that everyone seems to know about but you that you wish you knew about earlier, or it could be something in Acme::, or it could be some interseting module floating around elsewhere. Useful, silly, mind bending or just plain cool, everything goes. You don't have to actually bring the module in, just briefly describe what it does, why you like it, and what it's called.

DougMiles suggested http://search.cpan.org/src/AUTRIJUS/Games-AIBots-0.03/doc/aibots.html which sounds awefully cool to me. I'll have to play with this to see what it has in store for us. See Games::AIBots - ScottWalters

ScottWalters promised a 3rd part of the FuzzyLogic series, this time an expert system.

ScottWalters has some interesting Segway-like control code in C. The theory is really nifty. Could be a presentation basis.

Coro - ScottWalters is dieing to do a Coro presentation. Coroutines are essentially cooperative threads. Compared to an event driven system, you don't have to return out to yield the CPU, so programs have normal structure, with while loops and subroutines rather than a series of tiny subroutines. Perl 6 will feature coroutines in core, and Perl 5 has an excellent CPAN module adding them. Coro is easier to use, safer, easier to grasp, and far more stable than threads on Perl 5. (The Web scraping presentation used Coro, but there's another Coro presentation in the works that uses it for network servers in replacement of POE. Maybe he'll get lazy and just use the fingerd and Perl-shell examples from Perl 6 Now.)

http://perldesignpatterns.com/?GodObject - ScottWalters wants to do a presentation on code refactoring. The GodObject discussion is a good introduction to useful OO programming for an OO novice. People experienced with objects in Perl who have never worked on a large program will take their knowledge to, er, the next level.

Perl 6 101. 'nuff said. - ScottWalters (This presentation was done as a series, but the series will probably be re-run.)

ScottWalters wants to show how to make an upload progress bar in Perl.

ScottWalters wants to show off his stealth-DNS idea -- to avoid bandwidth associated with repeatedly denying RBL'd spammers, check for RBL *before* returning the authoratative DNS information for your mail server -- don't even give them your IP address!

ScottWalters wants to do a presentation on his Perl6::Contexts module. The presentation will introduce the new reference, number, string, and object contexts in Perl 6, and how they make Perl much clearer, more powerful, more expressive, and generally saner, and how much of this is now available in Perl 5 thanks to this module.

ScottWalters wants to talk about the process of writing a technical book, and his particular adventure in doing so.

ScottWalters would like another stab at his presentation on constraint systems, a topic from Structure And Interpretation of Computer Programs.

ScottWalters could do a redux of his TinyWiki presentation.

Someone did a Perl Best Practises (Book) presentation.

Brock did his ICFP presentation.

Intro to OO has been requested. ScottWalters is willing to do the presentation -- unless someone intercepts! 

On  0, Craig Frooninckx <medicldr at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>    I won't be able to make this meeting (I teach on Tues and Thr
>    nights).  I'll try to find a way to send the PBP and Programming Perl
>    (I think that was the other one).  Remember the proceeds of the
>    auction are going directly to the Perl Foundation.
>    On another note, I know an instrcutor at GCC, which may give us the
>    option of GCC-North as well.
>    
>    On 9/2/05, Brock <[1] awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>    
>      Lets meet at CounterCulture ([2] countercultureaz.com) on Tue
>      September 13,
>      2005 @ 7:00pm. I have two books to give away (Perl Best Practices
>      and
>      Advanced Perl Programming 2nd Ed) and we have a second copy of Perl
>      Best
>      Practices to auction I believe. Topic suggestions welcome, and I'll
>      come
>      up with a list once I see that people can actually make it to this
>      time/location.
>      Counter Culture is located at 2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ
>      85006.
>      That is near McDowell and 24th St. They are open 24x7 and have
>      pretty
>      nice chairs/tables and free wireless.
>      --Brock
>      _______________________________________________
>      Phoenix-pm mailing list
>      [3]Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>      [4]http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> References
> 
>    1. mailto:awwaiid at thelackthereof.org
>    2. http://countercultureaz.com/
>    3. mailto:Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>    4. http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep  2 14:15:55 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:15:55 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
References: <7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
Message-ID: <20050902211555.GW15273@illogics.org>

http://use.perl.org/articles/05/08/31/0559251.shtml?tid=8&tid=16

Toronto.pm posting slides and audio from their presentations. Damn,
I had that idea, too. Anyway, we should start posting *video* of
our talks and one-up them.

-scott

On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
> 
> You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)
> 
> - billn
> 
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:
> 
> >Brock, Everyone,
> >
> >Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
> >
> >* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
> >* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
> >* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
> >* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
> >* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, Doug)
> >* cleaned up in general
> >
> >Everyone,
> >
> >phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're hoping
> >to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
> >trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
> >to update their /etc/host file >=)
> >
> >-scott
> >
> >On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org
> >>to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the request
> >>to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
> >>everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
> >>
> >>--Brock
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> >

From medicldr at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 14:45:45 2005
From: medicldr at gmail.com (Craig Frooninckx)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:45:45 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <20050902211555.GW15273@illogics.org>
References: <7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
	<20050902211555.GW15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <7d99b54505090214458581aec@mail.gmail.com>

Whoa big fella, let's get our website up and running first, then we can 
out-do Toronto, Chicago, and oohhh, shall we consider
London.pm<http://London.pm>
?

On 9/2/05, Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org> wrote:
> 
> http://use.perl.org/articles/05/08/31/0559251.shtml?tid=8&tid=16
> 
> Toronto.pm <http://Toronto.pm> posting slides and audio from their 
> presentations. Damn,
> I had that idea, too. Anyway, we should start posting *video* of
> our talks and one-up them.
> 
> -scott
> 
> On 0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
> >
> > You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)
> >
> > - billn
> >
> > On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:
> >
> > >Brock, Everyone,
> > >
> > >Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
> > >
> > >* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
> > >* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
> > >* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
> > >* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
> > >* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, 
> Doug)
> > >* cleaned up in general
> > >
> > >Everyone,
> > >
> > >phoenix.pm.org <http://phoenix.pm.org> isn't quite actually back 
> on-line yet, but we're hoping
> > >to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
> > >trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
> > >to update their /etc/host file >=)
> > >
> > >-scott
> > >
> > >On 0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org<http://phoenix.pm.org>
> > >>to 66.111.62.88 <http://66.111.62.88> then you can see for yourself. 
> I've put in the request
> > >>to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
> > >>everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
> > >>
> > >>--Brock
> > >>
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > >
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>
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From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Sep  2 15:13:56 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:13:56 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <20050902211555.GW15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
	<20050902211555.GW15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050902221356.GH3643@thelackthereof.org>


My idea is to record the audio, video, AND screenshot-movies! I love
those cute little flash-based screenshot thingies, and I'm using them at
work as training tools.

--Brock

On 2005.09.02.14.15, Scott Walters wrote:
| http://use.perl.org/articles/05/08/31/0559251.shtml?tid=8&tid=16
| 
| Toronto.pm posting slides and audio from their presentations. Damn,
| I had that idea, too. Anyway, we should start posting *video* of
| our talks and one-up them.
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
| > 
| > You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)
| > 
| > - billn
| > 
| > On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:
| > 
| > >Brock, Everyone,
| > >
| > >Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
| > >
| > >* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
| > >* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
| > >* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
| > >* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
| > >* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, Doug)
| > >* cleaned up in general
| > >
| > >Everyone,
| > >
| > >phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're hoping
| > >to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
| > >trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
| > >to update their /etc/host file >=)
| > >
| > >-scott
| > >
| > >On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > >>
| > >>OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org
| > >>to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the request
| > >>to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
| > >>everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
| > >>
| > >>--Brock
| > >>
| > >_______________________________________________
| > >Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > >

From medicldr at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 16:19:12 2005
From: medicldr at gmail.com (Craig Frooninckx)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:19:12 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
Message-ID: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...
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From bwmetz at att.com  Fri Sep  2 16:31:11 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 18:31:11 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733675E8CAD@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Brock,
	Never let anyone tell you that you have too much time on your
hands ;-)

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Brock
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 3:14 PM
To: Scott Walters
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services



My idea is to record the audio, video, AND screenshot-movies! I love
those cute little flash-based screenshot thingies, and I'm using them at
work as training tools.

--Brock

On 2005.09.02.14.15, Scott Walters wrote:
| http://use.perl.org/articles/05/08/31/0559251.shtml?tid=8&tid=16
| 
| Toronto.pm posting slides and audio from their presentations. Damn,
| I had that idea, too. Anyway, we should start posting *video* of
| our talks and one-up them.
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
| > 
| > You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)
| > 
| > - billn
| > 
| > On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:
| > 
| > >Brock, Everyone,
| > >
| > >Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
| > >
| > >* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the
archive
| > >* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
| > >* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
| > >* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
| > >* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him
(cheers, Doug)
| > >* cleaned up in general
| > >
| > >Everyone,
| > >
| > >phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're
hoping
| > >to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's
/etc/hosts
| > >trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the
'net
| > >to update their /etc/host file >=)
| > >
| > >-scott
| > >
| > >On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > >>
| > >>OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set
phoenix.pm.org
| > >>to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the
request
| > >>to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to
convince
| > >>everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
| > >>
| > >>--Brock
| > >>
| > >_______________________________________________
| > >Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > >
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Fri Sep  2 16:32:21 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 18:32:21 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733675E8CAE@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

<sheepish grin>...None!

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On Behalf Of Craig Frooninckx
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:19 PM
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE


Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...


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From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Fri Sep  2 16:46:32 2005
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:46:32 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
In-Reply-To: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78FAAD31-7EE3-4F75-9BDD-DDC33CD3EAA1@highwire.stanford.edu>

On the Mac, there's only one IDE: Affrus. It's pretty good if you're  
developing locally, but I do all my work on the webserver, which is  
Solaris.

I also looked at Eclipse, which has a perl plug-in, but it's way too  
slow on my mac to be worthwhile.

So I just use a good text editor, BBEdit. :-)
-- Mike

On Sep 2, 2005, at 4:19 PM, Craig Frooninckx wrote:

> Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From benjamin.trussell at asu.edu  Fri Sep  2 16:52:34 2005
From: benjamin.trussell at asu.edu (Benjamin Trussell)
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:52:34 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
Message-ID: <037FF41095AD394DB28A3991559A0FB4384737@EX04.asurite.ad.asu.edu>

<obligatory-joke>
IDE
	I Don't Edit

Instead I...

WOPIB 
       Write Once... Pray Its Bug-free

:-)
</obligatory-joke>

Failing that process (often), I like to use Quanta or Vim in *nix,
Crimson Editor in Win32.  Also, Gnome Desktop's basic Text editor has
syntax highlighting , line numbering, and opens fast.  

Now, none of the above are IDE's by definition (save for Vim perhaps),
and likely you're looking for auto-completion, debugging, etc.  In this
regard I tried Komodo once, and found it to be very nice.  
http://www.activestate.com/Products/Komodo/pricing_and_licensing.plex  
or click on http://tinyurl.com/8aeag

Ben


________________________________________
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On
Behalf Of Metz, Bobby W, WCS
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:32 PM
To: medicldr at gmail.com; phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE

<sheepish grin>...None!
-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Craig Frooninckx
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:19 PM
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...

From medicldr at gmail.com  Fri Sep  2 21:34:07 2005
From: medicldr at gmail.com (Craig Frooninckx)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:34:07 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <20050902221356.GH3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0509021231340.31493@bacchus.billn.net>
	<20050902211555.GW15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902221356.GH3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <7d99b545050902213470facaf4@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, that might be a project we can do as a group, whole new meaning to the 
recursive concept, we'll having training videos on how to make training 
videos...

On 9/2/05, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> My idea is to record the audio, video, AND screenshot-movies! I love
> those cute little flash-based screenshot thingies, and I'm using them at
> work as training tools.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.02.14.15, Scott Walters wrote:
> | http://use.perl.org/articles/05/08/31/0559251.shtml?tid=8&tid=16
> |
> | Toronto.pm <http://Toronto.pm> posting slides and audio from their 
> presentations. Damn,
> | I had that idea, too. Anyway, we should start posting *video* of
> | our talks and one-up them.
> |
> | -scott
> |
> | On 0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
> | >
> | > You greatly underestimate my lack of ambition on your part. =)
> | >
> | > - billn
> | >
> | > On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Scott Walters wrote:
> | >
> | > >Brock, Everyone,
> | > >
> | > >Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
> | > >
> | > >* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the 
> archive
> | > >* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
> | > >* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
> | > >* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
> | > >* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, 
> Doug)
> | > >* cleaned up in general
> | > >
> | > >Everyone,
> | > >
> | > >phoenix.pm.org <http://phoenix.pm.org> isn't quite actually back 
> on-line yet, but we're hoping
> | > >to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
> | > >trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
> | > >to update their /etc/host file >=)
> | > >
> | > >-scott
> | > >
> | > >On 0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > >>
> | > >>OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set 
> phoenix.pm.org <http://phoenix.pm.org>
> | > >>to 66.111.62.88 <http://66.111.62.88> then you can see for yourself. 
> I've put in the request
> | > >>to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to 
> convince
> | > >>everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
> | > >>
> | > >>--Brock
> | > >>
> | > >_______________________________________________
> | > >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > >
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>
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From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Sep  2 23:30:09 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 23:30:09 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
In-Reply-To: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050903063009.GI3643@thelackthereof.org>


vim, gvim, or gvim-win32, depending on the context. I've slowly built up
some minor customizations and shortcuts, but most of its just setting
defaults.

One of my favorites is tab-completion (ctrl-n by default gets you most
of the way there) -- it isn't language-aware and doesn't have to be, it
just goes off of what other keywords I've already typed in any open
file. Simple and very effective. That and auto-indent (indent to
whatever the line before was indented... again, not language aware and I
like it that way) make me a happy brock.

Debugging? print "here!\n" + Data::Dumper :)

--Brock

On 2005.09.02.16.19, Craig Frooninckx wrote:
|    Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...

| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Sat Sep  3 10:34:34 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:34:34 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
In-Reply-To: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050903173434.GZ15273@illogics.org>

My development environment is distributed, not integrated. "Integrated" implies
monolithic. Unix only timeshares; vi only edits text; perldoc only displays
documentation; cvs only does versioning; etc. When I find a better text editor,
I'll start using it (does any know any that have Lisp embedded, maybe?). When
I find a better versioning system, I'll use it. I don't care whether they all
run in the same window pane or not.

However, I hope the next generation of GUI programming books for Perl
will teach me how to use a GUI builder, such as Glade/GTK ;)

-scott



On  0, Craig Frooninckx <medicldr at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>    Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...
>    

> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Sat Sep  3 10:39:21 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:39:21 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
In-Reply-To: <20050903063009.GI3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050903063009.GI3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050903173921.GA15273@illogics.org>

print "debug: ", __LINE__, "\n"; # my personal favorite... you can Y(ank) and P(aste) it to various places to see the flow of execution

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> vim, gvim, or gvim-win32, depending on the context. I've slowly built up
> some minor customizations and shortcuts, but most of its just setting
> defaults.
> 
> One of my favorites is tab-completion (ctrl-n by default gets you most
> of the way there) -- it isn't language-aware and doesn't have to be, it
> just goes off of what other keywords I've already typed in any open
> file. Simple and very effective. That and auto-indent (indent to
> whatever the line before was indented... again, not language aware and I
> like it that way) make me a happy brock.
> 
> Debugging? print "here!\n" + Data::Dumper :)
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.02.16.19, Craig Frooninckx wrote:
> |    Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...
> 
> | _______________________________________________
> | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Sat Sep  3 11:00:55 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:00:55 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
In-Reply-To: <20050903063009.GI3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050903063009.GI3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050903180054.GB15273@illogics.org>

In my opinion, your energies are best spent learning either vi or EMACS.
Being able to automate reptition in your editing and perform complex 
operations with few keystrokes is more important than having documentation
slightly more readily accessible. Maybe you're spending 80% of your time
reading documentation right now, but in a few years, you'll be spending
most of your time reworking code, debugging, refactoring -- and editing,
in general. All of the little information displays and data read-outs
in the world won't save you. Heck, I even compose email in vi ;) I can
move a word, sentence, or paragraph with a few keystrokes, without
having to reach for the mouse, and without having to aim some little
cursor. More often than not, things get moved using line offsets, patterns,
or a mixture of both, rather than through any explicit arrowing over.
Block indenting, unindenting, commenting, and uncommenting are also 
few keystroke operations that take about a second.

And maybe it's just me (apparently so), but syntax highlighting is only
distracting. Discerning the algorithm, flow of execution, soundness of the 
design, security of the implemetnation, etc is far more difficult and far more
interesting than parsing the syntax of any given line. So, the effect on
me is that of relaxation music when I'm stressed for a good reason and
want to continue being stressed.

If the editor were smart enough to dim the exceptions, checks, debug 
statements, etc, and only leave the main algorithm, that might be somewhat
helpful. 

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> vim, gvim, or gvim-win32, depending on the context. I've slowly built up
> some minor customizations and shortcuts, but most of its just setting
> defaults.
> 
> One of my favorites is tab-completion (ctrl-n by default gets you most
> of the way there) -- it isn't language-aware and doesn't have to be, it
> just goes off of what other keywords I've already typed in any open
> file. Simple and very effective. That and auto-indent (indent to
> whatever the line before was indented... again, not language aware and I
> like it that way) make me a happy brock.
> 
> Debugging? print "here!\n" + Data::Dumper :)
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.02.16.19, Craig Frooninckx wrote:
> |    Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...
> 
> | _______________________________________________
> | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From perlguy at earthlink.net  Sun Sep  4 14:51:17 2005
From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles)
Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:51:17 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>	<20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>

Scott Walters wrote:

>Hi Brock,
>
>I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
>was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
>conference tables...
>  
>
<SNIP>

So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)

From perlguy at earthlink.net  Sun Sep  4 14:53:12 2005
From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles)
Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:53:12 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050813001140.GD3570@thelackthereof.org>	<7d99b54505081608344e9d4093@mail.gmail.com>	<7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>	<20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <431B6CC8.6010001@earthlink.net>

Scott Walters wrote:

>Brock, Everyone,
>
>Okay, I did some pretty substantial updating:
>
>* pasted in two more meeting announcements and moved one to the archive
>* pasted in bios from several people who posted bios to the list
>* made a MeetingLoctions page, broken off from PerlCalender
>* updated PerlMongersIdeas from my paper notes
>* marked Doug as retired everywhere I saw references to him (cheers, Doug)
>  
>
I'm not dead yet!  I feel happy... I feel happy...

>* cleaned up in general
>
>Everyone,
>
>phoenix.pm.org isn't quite actually back on-line yet, but we're hoping
>to have it up soon. Feel free to pre-view it with Brock's /etc/hosts
>trick. Personally I like the idea of convincing everyone on the 'net
>to update their /etc/host file >=)
>
>-scott
>
>On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>  
>
>>OK, I got our files! if you edit your hosts file to set phoenix.pm.org
>>to 66.111.62.88 then you can see for yourself. I've put in the request
>>to have our A record pointed there, so that we don't have to convince
>>everyone on the internet to edit their hosts file for us.
>>
>>--Brock
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>  
>


From perlguy at earthlink.net  Sun Sep  4 14:57:40 2005
From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles)
Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:57:40 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
In-Reply-To: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <431B6DD4.4040709@earthlink.net>

Craig Frooninckx wrote:

> Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...

gvim/vim here.  On Linux and Windows.

From scott at illogics.org  Sun Sep  4 17:18:39 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 17:18:39 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix.pm services
In-Reply-To: <431B6CC8.6010001@earthlink.net>
References: <7d99b54505082920384911c2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830034818.GB12746@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050830040137.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b545050829210022f409c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830042157.GR15273@illogics.org>
	<7d99b54505082921236ce1316a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050830044113.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165455.GC3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902193024.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6CC8.6010001@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20050905001839.GD15273@illogics.org>

Yay, Doug's alive! We want a full status report!

-scott




From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Sep  6 06:57:37 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 06:57:37 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050902195026.GV15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050902180656.GG3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<7d99b54505090212327acbd96e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050902195026.GV15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050906135737.GM3643@thelackthereof.org>

On 2005.09.02.12.50, Scott Walters wrote:
| ...
| Briefly, though, I'm itching to do Perl6::Contexts (introducing the object
| context, reference context, numeric, and string contexts from Perl 6, now
| available in Perl 5, for more concise, more error-free code!) and I promised
| to do a "The Making of Perl 6 Now".
| ...
| If I present, we should do at least one other presentation so prevent me
| from monopolizing the group.
| ...

I'd like to learn about Perl6::Contexts.

Also, I offer to present 'Introduction to Modular Programming in Perl'
as a ramp-up to 'Introduction to Object-Oriented Programming in Perl'.
Later I wouldn't even mind doing some other programming models
(functional, logical...).

Of note, the DNS for the phoenix.pm.org website is probably propagated
by now, so everyone should be able to access it without having to add a
static entry in your hosts.conf file :)

--Brock


From medicldr at gmail.com  Tue Sep  6 07:17:03 2005
From: medicldr at gmail.com (Craig Frooninckx)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 07:17:03 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050906135737.GM3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050902180656.GG3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<7d99b54505090212327acbd96e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050902195026.GV15273@illogics.org>
	<20050906135737.GM3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <7d99b54505090607174a2bf89b@mail.gmail.com>

Yea!!!!! We have a web-site again.......

Since I won't be able to make this meeting, please don't present on Modular 
Programming, I really want to see that one, unless you will be able to 
record for my later enjoyment on TiVo.

On 9/6/05, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> On 2005.09.02.12.50, Scott Walters wrote:
> | ...
> | Briefly, though, I'm itching to do Perl6::Contexts (introducing the 
> object
> | context, reference context, numeric, and string contexts from Perl 6, 
> now
> | available in Perl 5, for more concise, more error-free code!) and I 
> promised
> | to do a "The Making of Perl 6 Now".
> | ...
> | If I present, we should do at least one other presentation so prevent me
> | from monopolizing the group.
> | ...
> 
> I'd like to learn about Perl6::Contexts.
> 
> Also, I offer to present 'Introduction to Modular Programming in Perl'
> as a ramp-up to 'Introduction to Object-Oriented Programming in Perl'.
> Later I wouldn't even mind doing some other programming models
> (functional, logical...).
> 
> Of note, the DNS for the phoenix.pm.org <http://phoenix.pm.org> website is 
> probably propagated
> by now, so everyone should be able to access it without having to add a
> static entry in your hosts.conf file :)
> 
> --Brock
> 
>
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From scott at illogics.org  Tue Sep  6 11:36:37 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:36:37 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050906135737.GM3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050902180656.GG3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<7d99b54505090212327acbd96e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050902195026.GV15273@illogics.org>
	<20050906135737.GM3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050906183637.GI15273@illogics.org>

Updated the Calendar on phoenix.pm.org with the topic. Sounds good.

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> On 2005.09.02.12.50, Scott Walters wrote:
> | ...
> | Briefly, though, I'm itching to do Perl6::Contexts (introducing the object
> | context, reference context, numeric, and string contexts from Perl 6, now
> | available in Perl 5, for more concise, more error-free code!) and I promised
> | to do a "The Making of Perl 6 Now".
> | ...
> | If I present, we should do at least one other presentation so prevent me
> | from monopolizing the group.
> | ...
> 
> I'd like to learn about Perl6::Contexts.
> 
> Also, I offer to present 'Introduction to Modular Programming in Perl'
> as a ramp-up to 'Introduction to Object-Oriented Programming in Perl'.
> Later I wouldn't even mind doing some other programming models
> (functional, logical...).
> 
> Of note, the DNS for the phoenix.pm.org website is probably propagated
> by now, so everyone should be able to access it without having to add a
> static entry in your hosts.conf file :)
> 
> --Brock
> 

From scott at illogics.org  Tue Sep  6 11:49:15 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:49:15 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Fwd: Last chance to save The Phoenix Slashdot Meetup
	Group
Message-ID: <20050906184915.GJ15273@illogics.org>

By the way, Phoenix.PM once meet at the Willow House at the
same time the Slashdot Meetup group meet at the same location,
just to socialize and mingle with the local tech scene
(we had a social meeting). A handful of people came out
for the Meetup, and the meeting format exactly followed that
of normal social meetings -- we just talked about Microsoft
the whole time.

Meetup went more commercial, and now you have to pay a 
small amount of money to run a Meetup. Upshot: Phoenix.PM
could own the Phoenix Slashdot Meetup if we wanted to. 

Actually, our control would be limited unless we let them
pick the location, as Meetup has a location voting process
(that doesn't work -- everyone votes for a location, then
90% of the people who RSVP don't make it, so the last 10%
are stuck at a location they didn't want to drive to).

Er, anyway, just a slightly evil thought. 

More seriously, I'd like to open the doors to Python, Ruby,
Pike, etc programmers and get more of mixed culture. I'd like
to see presentations about Ruby (neat hackery and basic tutelage)
and gain some exposure to the more fringe scripting languages 
that have neat things going for them but I wouldn't otherwise
have exposure to. I'm not proposing changing the name, just
the "mission statement".

Thoughts?

-scott

----- Forwarded message from "Meetup.com" <info at meetup.com> -----

From: "Meetup.com" <info at meetup.com>
Subject: Last chance to save The Phoenix Slashdot Meetup Group

You can help the 73 members of The Phoenix Slashdot Meetup 
Group connect and create local community -- become the group's 
Organizer today. It's a real & rewarding responsibility, and 
Meetup.com will help you each step of the way.

As Organizer, you'll get special access to tools specifically 
designed for managing and growing a local OFFLINE community 
group. And while Organizers are responsible for paying a 
monthly Group Fee, many groups share the cost among the group 
members - this often breaks down to a just a dollar or two per 
member.

Plus there's a 30-day money back guarantee. Step up today and 
if you are not satisfied with the Meetup service, we'll give 
you a full refund.

To learn more, go to:
http://slashdot.meetup.com/10/handover/?op=c

Finally, if no one takes over the group in the next few days 
the group will be disbanded and you'll be added to an "Alerts 
List" to be notified when a new Slashdot group starts nearby.

Thanks for using Meetup.com!


From scott at illogics.org  Tue Sep  6 14:11:47 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:11:47 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Fwd: ++ turns undef into 0 first
Message-ID: <20050906211147.GN15273@illogics.org>

Here's an interesting gotcha sent to the perl-porters list:

----- Forwarded message from Peter Scott <Peter at PSDT.com> -----

From: Peter Scott <Peter at PSDT.com>
Subject: ++ turns undef into 0 first

This recently bit me:

$ perl -wle 'print 42 if defined($h{foo}++)'
42

Now, before thousands of you reach for the flamethrowers, yes, I know
- now - that this is documented.  I found it in perlop right where it
ought to be:

| undef is always treated as numeric, and in particular is changed to 0
| before incrementing (so that a post-increment of an undef value will
| return 0 rather than undef).

The only thing that perturbs me is that I had to find this after I was
starting to wonder whether there was a bug.  So this looks to me like
suboptimal behavior that has been documented; any chance of making it
behave the more logical way, i.e., that the expression evaluates to the
original value and not some modified one?  I can't imagine there is much
code relying on the current behavior.

-- 
Peter Scott
http://www.perlmedic.com/
http://www.perldebugged.com/


----- End forwarded message -----

From cakrum at cox.net  Wed Sep  7 15:36:29 2005
From: cakrum at cox.net (Chris Krum)
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:36:29 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
In-Reply-To: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7d99b545050902161965ffdc6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7bfff6b2916a49ad25831d1e7c7bb75@cox.net>


On Sep 2, 2005, at 4:19 PM, Craig Frooninckx wrote:

> Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...

I notice a lot of people are using vim/gvim. Is anyone using the 
perl-support.vim plugin? It gives you some code completion, the ability 
to do syntax checking and debugging, the ability to store and insert 
code snippets, etc. I've just started using it and I was wondering if 
anyone else had any experience with it.

Chris.


From scott at illogics.org  Wed Sep  7 17:25:28 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:25:28 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
References: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>
	<20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>

I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
in Large Electronics Companies.

So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
would rule. 

Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
from piles of books. 

-scott

On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Scott Walters wrote:
> 
> >Hi Brock,
> >
> >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
> >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
> >conference tables...
> >  
> >
> <SNIP>
> 
> So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Wed Sep  7 17:27:56 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:27:56 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>
	<20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>


Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to
show up? I'll be there :)

--Brock

On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
| do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
| in Large Electronics Companies.
| 
| So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
| would rule. 
| 
| Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
| check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
| from piles of books. 
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
| > Scott Walters wrote:
| > 
| > >Hi Brock,
| > >
| > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
| > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
| > >conference tables...
| > >  
| > >
| > <SNIP>
| > 
| > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Sep  7 20:15:26 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:15:26 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>
	<20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>

I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a pre-RSVP
concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to
> show up? I'll be there :)
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
> | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
> | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
> | in Large Electronics Companies.
> | 
> | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
> | would rule. 
> | 
> | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
> | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
> | from piles of books. 
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
> | > Scott Walters wrote:
> | > 
> | > >Hi Brock,
> | > >
> | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
> | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
> | > >conference tables...
> | > >  
> | > >
> | > <SNIP>
> | > 
> | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | _______________________________________________
> | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Thu Sep  8 19:13:41 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:13:41 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>


Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.

but really.

--Brock

On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
| I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a pre-RSVP
| concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to
| > show up? I'll be there :)
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
| > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
| > | in Large Electronics Companies.
| > | 
| > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
| > | would rule. 
| > | 
| > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
| > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
| > | from piles of books. 
| > | 
| > | -scott
| > | 
| > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
| > | > Scott Walters wrote:
| > | > 
| > | > >Hi Brock,
| > | > >
| > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
| > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
| > | > >conference tables...
| > | > >  
| > | > >
| > | > <SNIP>
| > | > 
| > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Thu Sep  8 19:45:01 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:45:01 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050909024500.GT15273@illogics.org>

Keeping in mind of course that most people won't know whether they can make it
until a few days before, which is *fine*... hope to see you all there. 

My presentation involves midgets, broken glass, nude parachutists, and
I won't be able to repeat it until my parole is over from the charges
filed this time.

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
> 
> but really.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
> | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a pre-RSVP
> | concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to
> | > show up? I'll be there :)
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
> | > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
> | > | in Large Electronics Companies.
> | > | 
> | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
> | > | would rule. 
> | > | 
> | > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
> | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
> | > | from piles of books. 
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
> | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > >Hi Brock,
> | > | > >
> | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
> | > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
> | > | > >conference tables...
> | > | > >  
> | > | > >
> | > | > <SNIP>
> | > | > 
> | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > | _______________________________________________
> | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From benjamin.trussell at asu.edu  Thu Sep  8 23:02:42 2005
From: benjamin.trussell at asu.edu (Ben)
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:02:42 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050827052957.GD15273@illogics.org>
	<20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <43212582.4080505@asu.edu>

Cake or Death? 

Cake please... RSVP'ed

Ben

Brock wrote:

>Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
>
>but really.
>
>--Brock
>
>On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
>| I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a pre-RSVP
>| concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
>| 
>| -scott
>| 
>| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>| > 
>| > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to
>| > show up? I'll be there :)
>| > 
>| > --Brock
>| > 
>| > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
>| > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
>| > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
>| > | in Large Electronics Companies.
>| > | 
>| > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
>| > | would rule. 
>| > | 
>| > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
>| > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
>| > | from piles of books. 
>| > | 
>| > | -scott
>| > | 
>| > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
>| > | > Scott Walters wrote:
>| > | > 
>| > | > >Hi Brock,
>| > | > >
>| > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
>| > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
>| > | > >conference tables...
>| > | > >  
>| > | > >
>| > | > <SNIP>
>| > | > 
>| > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
>| > | > _______________________________________________
>| > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>| > | _______________________________________________
>| > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>  
>


From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Fri Sep  9 07:35:18 2005
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 07:35:18 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
In-Reply-To: <20050909024500.GT15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050909024500.GT15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <B0667DD2-44D3-44DD-A42A-44C4580BB59C@highwire.stanford.edu>

Wow. Since I actually work with a former nude parachutist ("The  
straps chafe. A lot."), I really wish I could attend... but no luck  
this time.

Have fun y'all!
-- Mike

On Sep 8, 2005, at 7:45 PM, Scott Walters wrote:

> Keeping in mind of course that most people won't know whether they  
> can make it
> until a few days before, which is *fine*... hope to see you all there.
>
> My presentation involves midgets, broken glass, nude parachutists, and
> I won't be able to repeat it until my parole is over from the charges
> filed this time.
>
> -scott
>
> On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
>>
>> but really.
>>
>> --Brock
>>
>> On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
>> | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a  
>> pre-RSVP
>> | concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
>> |
>> | -scott
>> |
>> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>> | >
>> | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else  
>> going to
>> | > show up? I'll be there :)
>> | >
>> | > --Brock
>> | >
>> | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
>> | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I  
>> should
>> | > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with  
>> the CTO
>> | > | in Large Electronics Companies.
>> | > |
>> | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you  
>> know, that
>> | > | would rule.
>> | > |
>> | > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
>> | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
>> | > | from piles of books.
>> | > |
>> | > | -scott
>> | > |
>> | > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
>> | > | >
>> | > | > >Hi Brock,
>> | > | > >
>> | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation  
>> spaces. Bowne
>> | > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy  
>> around
>> | > | > >conference tables...
>> | > | > >
>> | > | > >
>> | > | > <SNIP>
>> | > | >
>> | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or  
>> both?  :)
>> | > | > _______________________________________________
>> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>> | > | _______________________________________________
>> | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------



From jksmith at lexsolutio.com  Fri Sep  9 12:06:41 2005
From: jksmith at lexsolutio.com (Jonathan K. Smith)
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:06:41 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix-pm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9
Message-ID: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276A18815@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>

I'm going to try and make it. 


Jonathan Smith
Encore Lex Solutio
www.lexsolutio.com
1-888-389-1658

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On
Behalf Of phoenix-pm-request at pm.org
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:00 PM
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Phoenix-pm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9

Send Phoenix-pm mailing list submissions to
	phoenix-pm at pm.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
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	phoenix-pm-request at pm.org

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	phoenix-pm-owner at pm.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Phoenix-pm digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: counter culture cafe as a meeting location (Brock)
   2. Re: counter culture cafe as a meeting location (Scott Walters)
   3. Re: counter culture cafe as a meeting location (Ben)
   4. Re: counter culture cafe as a meeting location (Michael Friedman)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:13:41 -0700
From: Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org>
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
To: Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org>
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Message-ID: <20050909021341.GT3643 at thelackthereof.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.

but really.

--Brock

On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
| I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a pre-RSVP

| concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to

| > show up? I'll be there :)
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should

| > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the 
| > | CTO in Large Electronics Companies.
| > | 
| > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, 
| > | that would rule.
| > | 
| > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
| > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples 
| > | from piles of books.
| > | 
| > | -scott
| > | 
| > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
| > | > Scott Walters wrote:
| > | > 
| > | > >Hi Brock,
| > | > >
| > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces.

| > | > >Bowne was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy

| > | > >around conference tables...
| > | > >  
| > | > >
| > | > <SNIP>
| > | > 
| > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  
| > | > :) _______________________________________________
| > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:45:01 -0700
From: Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org>
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
To: Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org>
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Message-ID: <20050909024500.GT15273 at illogics.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Keeping in mind of course that most people won't know whether they can
make it until a few days before, which is *fine*... hope to see you all
there. 

My presentation involves midgets, broken glass, nude parachutists, and I
won't be able to repeat it until my parole is over from the charges
filed this time.

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
> 
> but really.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
> | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a 
> | pre-RSVP concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much

> | =)
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going 
> | > to show up? I'll be there :)
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I 
> | > | should do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings 
> | > | with the CTO in Large Electronics Companies.
> | > | 
> | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, 
> | > | that would rule.
> | > | 
> | > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
> | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples 
> | > | from piles of books.
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
> | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > >Hi Brock,
> | > | > >
> | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation 
> | > | > >spaces. Bowne was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity 
> | > | > >and tragedy around conference tables...
> | > | > >  
> | > | > >
> | > | > <SNIP>
> | > | > 
> | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?

> | > | > :) _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > | _______________________________________________
> | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:02:42 -0700
From: Ben <benjamin.trussell at asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Message-ID: <43212582.4080505 at asu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Cake or Death? 

Cake please... RSVP'ed

Ben

Brock wrote:

>Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
>
>but really.
>
>--Brock
>
>On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
>| I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a 
>| pre-RSVP concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much 
>| =)
>| 
>| -scott
>| 
>| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>| > 
>| > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going 
>| > to show up? I'll be there :)
>| > 
>| > --Brock
>| > 
>| > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
>| > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I 
>| > | should do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings 
>| > | with the CTO in Large Electronics Companies.
>| > | 
>| > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, 
>| > | that would rule.
>| > | 
>| > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
>| > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples 
>| > | from piles of books.
>| > | 
>| > | -scott
>| > | 
>| > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
>| > | > Scott Walters wrote:
>| > | > 
>| > | > >Hi Brock,
>| > | > >
>| > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation 
>| > | > >spaces. Bowne was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity 
>| > | > >and tragedy around conference tables...
>| > | > >  
>| > | > >
>| > | > <SNIP>
>| > | > 
>| > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?

>| > | > :) _______________________________________________
>| > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>| > | _______________________________________________
>| > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>  
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 07:35:18 -0700
From: Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
To: Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org>
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Message-ID:
	<B0667DD2-44D3-44DD-A42A-44C4580BB59C at highwire.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Wow. Since I actually work with a former nude parachutist ("The straps
chafe. A lot."), I really wish I could attend... but no luck this time.

Have fun y'all!
-- Mike

On Sep 8, 2005, at 7:45 PM, Scott Walters wrote:

> Keeping in mind of course that most people won't know whether they can

> make it until a few days before, which is *fine*... hope to see you 
> all there.
>
> My presentation involves midgets, broken glass, nude parachutists, and

> I won't be able to repeat it until my parole is over from the charges 
> filed this time.
>
> -scott
>
> On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
>>
>> but really.
>>
>> --Brock
>>
>> On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
>> | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a
>> pre-RSVP
>> | concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
>> |
>> | -scott
>> |
>> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>> | >
>> | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else
>> going to
>> | > show up? I'll be there :)
>> | >
>> | > --Brock
>> | >
>> | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
>> | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I
>> should
>> | > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with
>> the CTO
>> | > | in Large Electronics Companies.
>> | > |
>> | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you
>> know, that
>> | > | would rule.
>> | > |
>> | > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
>> | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples

>> | > | from piles of books.
>> | > |
>> | > | -scott
>> | > |
>> | > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
>> | > | >
>> | > | > >Hi Brock,
>> | > | > >
>> | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation
>> spaces. Bowne
>> | > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy
>> around
>> | > | > >conference tables...
>> | > | > >
>> | > | > >
>> | > | > <SNIP>
>> | > | >
>> | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or
>> both?  :)
>> | > | > _______________________________________________
>> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>> | > | _______________________________________________
>> | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                     HighWire Press
Phone: 650-725-1974                  Stanford University
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

End of Phoenix-pm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9
*****************************************



From jzugel at excite.com  Sat Sep 10 10:58:36 2005
From: jzugel at excite.com (John Zugel)
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:58:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix-pm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9
Message-ID: <20050910175836.02A591E431@xprdmailfe24.nwk.excite.com>


> Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm.

Hi, I'm a semi-retired software engineer,
recently escaped from Silicon Valley.

I've been lurking on this list for most of the last
year, so I'd be interested in attending.

Consider this my RSVP.

See y'all Tuesday evening.

John Zugel

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!



From jzugel at excite.com  Sat Sep 10 11:10:20 2005
From: jzugel at excite.com (John Zugel)
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:10:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix-pm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 8
Message-ID: <20050910181020.196ED1E466@xprdmailfe24.nwk.excite.com>


> Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development...

Uh, Microsoft Visual Studio, of course.

If there were any other choice, I'm sure my Microsoft rep
would have told me about it.

John Zugel

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!



From scott at illogics.org  Sat Sep 10 14:02:22 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:02:22 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Phoenix-pm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <20050910175836.02A591E431@xprdmailfe24.nwk.excite.com>
References: <20050910175836.02A591E431@xprdmailfe24.nwk.excite.com>
Message-ID: <20050910210222.GV15273@illogics.org>

Good to have ya, John. Looking forward...

-scott

On  0, John Zugel <jzugel at excite.com> wrote:
> 
> > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm.
> 
> Hi, I'm a semi-retired software engineer,
> recently escaped from Silicon Valley.
> 
> I've been lurking on this list for most of the last
> year, so I'd be interested in attending.
> 
> Consider this my RSVP.
> 
> See y'all Tuesday evening.
> 
> John Zugel
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Mon Sep 12 13:25:43 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:25:43 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a meeting
	location
In-Reply-To: <20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050827072211.GG15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>

Oh, wow. That's tomorrow. Do we have enough RSVP's, Brock, or do we
cancel?

By the way, the full meeting announcement and descriptions of the presentations
have been posted at http://phoenix.pm.org.

Is this list working? 

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
> 
> but really.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
> | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a pre-RSVP
> | concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to
> | > show up? I'll be there :)
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
> | > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
> | > | in Large Electronics Companies.
> | > | 
> | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
> | > | would rule. 
> | > | 
> | > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
> | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
> | > | from piles of books. 
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
> | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > >Hi Brock,
> | > | > >
> | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
> | > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
> | > | > >conference tables...
> | > | > >  
> | > | > >
> | > | > <SNIP>
> | > | > 
> | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > | _______________________________________________
> | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Mon Sep 12 16:30:17 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:30:17 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a meeting
	location
In-Reply-To: <20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>


We have enough to satify me, so we go for it. Six total RSVPs so far
(you, me, ben, maybe bobby, jonathan, and john).

Here is a meeting reminder --

      Time: Tue 13 September 2005 @7:00pm
  Location: Counter Culture (countercultureaz.com)
            2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ 85006
            Free wireless, bring your laptop
    Topics: Perl6::Contexts, Intro to Modular Programming
     Other: Giving away some books (Perl Best Practices, ...)

I'll be making a special effort to digitalize the modular programming
thing, esp for Craig. Will definately do slides, but will additionally
try recording audio and maybe a screenshot movie if we do some coding.

One more thing -- in the interest in cross-group pollination, I
encourage everyone to also attend the PLUG developers meeting on October 8.
PLUG's calendar seems to be borked, so I'll be sure to post any further
information about that meeting here (topic, etc). Slightly more
information can be found on the plug site, http://plug.phoenix.az.us/.

--Brock

On 2005.09.12.13.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| Oh, wow. That's tomorrow. Do we have enough RSVP's, Brock, or do we
| cancel?
| 
| By the way, the full meeting announcement and descriptions of the presentations
| have been posted at http://phoenix.pm.org.
| 
| Is this list working? 
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
| > 
| > but really.
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a pre-RSVP
| > | concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
| > | 
| > | -scott
| > | 
| > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > | > 
| > | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going to
| > | > show up? I'll be there :)
| > | > 
| > | > --Brock
| > | > 
| > | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I should
| > | > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the CTO
| > | > | in Large Electronics Companies.
| > | > | 
| > | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, that
| > | > | would rule. 
| > | > | 
| > | > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
| > | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
| > | > | from piles of books. 
| > | > | 
| > | > | -scott
| > | > | 
| > | > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
| > | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
| > | > | > 
| > | > | > >Hi Brock,
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation spaces. Bowne
| > | > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy around
| > | > | > >conference tables...
| > | > | > >  
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > <SNIP>
| > | > | > 
| > | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both?  :)
| > | > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > | > | _______________________________________________
| > | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Mon Sep 12 22:46:05 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:46:05 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Survey: IDE
Message-ID: <20050913054743.LNMK3588.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>

No IDE per se.  I normally use NEdit (http://www.nedit.org)
for an editor, which provides syntax coloring and is easy
to use.  It's also an X app, so it's graphical but works
with GNOME or KDE, or without them. 

I use Perl's bundled h2xs and MakeMaker programs to handle
project creation and packaging.  Most IDEs claim to make
this and other tasks easier.  The problem is most of them
I've seen make it "easier" by wrapping complex tasks in
equally complex GUIs, forcing you to learn a counter-intuitive
graphical process with limited power instead of a counter-intuiti
e text-based process with significantly more power.  (Eclipse,
I'm talking to you!) 

That's not to to say I'm totally anti-IDE.  MonoDevelop
seems cool enough, at least for the small Mono projects
I've done so far.  But IMHO Perl doesn't /force/ you to
use an IDE to deal with big projects.  Java/J2EE and C#
definitely do. 

--aj


Craig Frooninckx <medicldr at gmail.com> wrote:
__________
>Okay, lets take a survey, who's using what IDE for development..
 
>  



From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Mon Sep 12 22:46:33 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:46:33 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] counter culture cafe as a meeting location
Message-ID: <20050913054818.LNTF3588.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>

Consider this an RSVP.

--aj


Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
__________
>
>Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone
else going to 
>show up? I'll be there :)
>
>--Brock
>
>On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
>| I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen".
I should 
>| do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings
with the CTO 
>| in Large Electronics Companies.
>| 
>| So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz,
you know, that 
>| would rule. 
>| 
>| Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=per
 
>| check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code
examples 
>| from piles of books. 
>| 
>| -scott
>| 
>| On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
>| > Scott Walters wrote:
>| > 
>| > >Hi Brock,
>| > >
>| > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation
spaces. Bowne 
>| > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and
tragedy around 
>| > >conference tables...
>| > >  
>| > >
>| > <SNIP>
>| > 
>| > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy,
or both?  :) 
>| > _______________________________________________
>| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>| _______________________________________________
>| Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm



From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Mon Sep 12 23:33:14 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:33:14 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a meeting
	location
In-Reply-To: <20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050913063314.GA5790@thelackthereof.org>


Sheesh like 8 hours later. Better late than never I suppose.

--Brock

On 2005.09.12.16.30, Brock wrote:
| 
| We have enough to satify me, so we go for it. Six total RSVPs so far
| (you, me, ben, maybe bobby, jonathan, and john).
| 
| Here is a meeting reminder --
| 
|       Time: Tue 13 September 2005 @7:00pm
|   Location: Counter Culture (countercultureaz.com)
|             2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ 85006
|             Free wireless, bring your laptop
|     Topics: Perl6::Contexts, Intro to Modular Programming
|      Other: Giving away some books (Perl Best Practices, ...)
| 
| I'll be making a special effort to digitalize the modular programming
| thing, esp for Craig. Will definately do slides, but will additionally
| try recording audio and maybe a screenshot movie if we do some coding.
| 
| One more thing -- in the interest in cross-group pollination, I
| encourage everyone to also attend the PLUG developers meeting on October 8.
| PLUG's calendar seems to be borked, so I'll be sure to post any further
| information about that meeting here (topic, etc). Slightly more
| information can be found on the plug site, http://plug.phoenix.az.us/.
| 
| --Brock
| 
| On 2005.09.12.13.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| | Oh, wow. That's tomorrow. Do we have enough RSVP's, Brock, or do we
| | cancel?
| | 
| | By the way, the full meeting announcement and descriptions of the presentations
| | have been posted at http://phoenix.pm.org.
| | 
| | Is this list working? 
| | 
| | -scott


From scott at illogics.org  Tue Sep 13 03:59:13 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:59:13 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] A novice logs onto IRC and asks how to sort without
	using sort...
In-Reply-To: <20050913063314.GA5790@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050913063314.GA5790@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050913105913.GZ15273@illogics.org>

<xmath> perl -0777 -pe '1 while s/^(.*\n)(.*\n)(??{$^Nge$1&&qr[(?!)]})/$2$1/gm'

Ask a stupid question... >=)

-scott


From scott at illogics.org  Tue Sep 13 04:01:58 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:01:58 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] A novice logs onto IRC and asks how to sort
	without using sort...
In-Reply-To: <20050913105913.GZ15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050913063314.GA5790@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050913105913.GZ15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050913110158.GA15273@illogics.org>

Was a touch premature...

<xmath> 1 while s/^(.*\n)(.*\n)(??{$^Nge$1&&qr$\A$})/$2$1/gm;
<xmath> that's a nice final version

No, I'm not xmath, I'm just quoting him =)

-scott

On  0, Scott Walters <scott at illogics.org> wrote:
> <xmath> perl -0777 -pe '1 while s/^(.*\n)(.*\n)(??{$^Nge$1&&qr[(?!)]})/$2$1/gm'
> 
> Ask a stupid question... >=)
> 
> -scott
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From vodhner at cox.net  Tue Sep 13 07:28:47 2005
From: vodhner at cox.net (Victor Odhner)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 07:28:47 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] A novice logs onto IRC and asks how to sort
 without using sort...
In-Reply-To: <20050913105913.GZ15273@illogics.org>
References: <20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>	<20050913063314.GA5790@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050913105913.GZ15273@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <4326E21F.5090807@cox.net>

Scott Walters wrote:
 > Ask a stupid question . . .

Stupid question indeed. For years I worked in languages in which sorting 
was a major chore, requiring all sorts of finagling. I had great respect 
for COBOL because, for all its verbosity, at least I could do a sort by 
just saying so. The sort function is one of Perl's three greatest 
features, along with hashes and regular expressions (the latter used in 
a sane and comprehensible manner, please).

BTW, I never write scripts or one-liners in Perl. I write programs. And 
I use "eval" as a rare last resort ... in the old days we called that 
"code modification" or "alteration", and it turned out then to be a 
Really Bad Idea. It still is.

I can play the guitar behind my back. I just don't see any need to.

There's more than one way to do it. And many of them are nightmares. ;-)

Sign me "Stodgy" . . .


From medicldr at gmail.com  Tue Sep 13 08:50:35 2005
From: medicldr at gmail.com (Craig Frooninckx)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:50:35 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a meeting
	location
In-Reply-To: <20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org> <431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <7d99b5450509130850e300c68@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Brock, I feel so speciallll....

On 9/12/05, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> We have enough to satify me, so we go for it. Six total RSVPs so far
> (you, me, ben, maybe bobby, jonathan, and john).
> 
> Here is a meeting reminder --
> 
> Time: Tue 13 September 2005 @7:00pm
> Location: Counter Culture (countercultureaz.com<http://countercultureaz.com>
> )
> 2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ 85006
> Free wireless, bring your laptop
> Topics: Perl6::Contexts, Intro to Modular Programming
> Other: Giving away some books (Perl Best Practices, ...)
> 
> I'll be making a special effort to digitalize the modular programming
> thing, esp for Craig. Will definately do slides, but will additionally
> try recording audio and maybe a screenshot movie if we do some coding.
> 
> One more thing -- in the interest in cross-group pollination, I
> encourage everyone to also attend the PLUG developers meeting on October 
> 8.
> PLUG's calendar seems to be borked, so I'll be sure to post any further
> information about that meeting here (topic, etc). Slightly more
> information can be found on the plug site, http://plug.phoenix.az.us/.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.09.12.13.25, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Oh, wow. That's tomorrow. Do we have enough RSVP's, Brock, or do we
> | cancel?
> |
> | By the way, the full meeting announcement and descriptions of the 
> presentations
> | have been posted at http://phoenix.pm.org.
> |
> | Is this list working?
> |
> | -scott
> |
> | On 0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | >
> | > Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
> | >
> | > but really.
> | >
> | > --Brock
> | >
> | > On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a 
> pre-RSVP
> | > | concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
> | > |
> | > | -scott
> | > |
> | > | On 0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > | >
> | > | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else going 
> to
> | > | > show up? I'll be there :)
> | > | >
> | > | > --Brock
> | > | >
> | > | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I 
> should
> | > | > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with the 
> CTO
> | > | > | in Large Electronics Companies.
> | > | > |
> | > | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know, 
> that
> | > | > | would rule.
> | > | > |
> | > | > | Oh yeah -- http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
> | > | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code examples
> | > | > | from piles of books.
> | > | > |
> | > | > | -scott
> | > | > |
> | > | > | On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
> | > | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | > | >
> | > | > | > >Hi Brock,
> | > | > | > >
> | > | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation 
> spaces. Bowne
> | > | > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy 
> around
> | > | > | > >conference tables...
> | > | > | > >
> | > | > | > >
> | > | > | > <SNIP>
> | > | > | >
> | > | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or both? 
> :)
> | > | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > | > | _______________________________________________
> | > | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>
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From perlguy at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 13 12:30:08 2005
From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:30:08 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a meeting
	location
In-Reply-To: <20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050828214423.GJ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <432728C0.5080602@earthlink.net>

Brock wrote:
> We have enough to satify me, so we go for it. Six total RSVPs so far
> (you, me, ben, maybe bobby, jonathan, and john).
> 
> Here is a meeting reminder --
> 
>       Time: Tue 13 September 2005 @7:00pm
>   Location: Counter Culture (countercultureaz.com)
>             2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ 85006
>             Free wireless, bring your laptop
>     Topics: Perl6::Contexts, Intro to Modular Programming
>      Other: Giving away some books (Perl Best Practices, ...)
> 
> I'll be making a special effort to digitalize the modular programming
> thing, esp for Craig. Will definately do slides, but will additionally
> try recording audio and maybe a screenshot movie if we do some coding.
> 
> One more thing -- in the interest in cross-group pollination, I
> encourage everyone to also attend the PLUG developers meeting on October 8.
> PLUG's calendar seems to be borked, so I'll be sure to post any further
> information about that meeting here (topic, etc). Slightly more
> information can be found on the plug site, http://plug.phoenix.az.us/.
> 
> --Brock

Amazingly enough, count me in.

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Sep 13 12:49:49 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:49:49 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a meeting
	location
In-Reply-To: <432728C0.5080602@earthlink.net>
References: <20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
	<432728C0.5080602@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20050913194949.GC5790@thelackthereof.org>

On 2005.09.13.12.30, Douglas E. Miles wrote:
| Amazingly enough, count me in.

We'll be very glad to have you :)

--Brock


From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Sep 13 17:09:46 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:09:46 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a
	meetinglocation
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733676CD17A@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it after all.  Looking forward to
the review material on the web.

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Brock
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 4:30 PM
To: Scott Walters
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a
meetinglocation



We have enough to satify me, so we go for it. Six total RSVPs so far
(you, me, ben, maybe bobby, jonathan, and john).

Here is a meeting reminder --

      Time: Tue 13 September 2005 @7:00pm
  Location: Counter Culture (countercultureaz.com)
            2330 E. McDowell Rd, Phoenix, AZ 85006
            Free wireless, bring your laptop
    Topics: Perl6::Contexts, Intro to Modular Programming
     Other: Giving away some books (Perl Best Practices, ...)

I'll be making a special effort to digitalize the modular programming
thing, esp for Craig. Will definately do slides, but will additionally
try recording audio and maybe a screenshot movie if we do some coding.

One more thing -- in the interest in cross-group pollination, I
encourage everyone to also attend the PLUG developers meeting on October
8.
PLUG's calendar seems to be borked, so I'll be sure to post any further
information about that meeting here (topic, etc). Slightly more
information can be found on the plug site, http://plug.phoenix.az.us/.

--Brock

On 2005.09.12.13.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| Oh, wow. That's tomorrow. Do we have enough RSVP's, Brock, or do we
| cancel?
| 
| By the way, the full meeting announcement and descriptions of the
presentations
| have been posted at http://phoenix.pm.org.
| 
| Is this list working? 
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Oh yeah. RSVP. OR DIE. just kidding.
| > 
| > but really.
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > On 2005.09.07.20.15, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | I plan to make it. Is it officially time to RSVP or is this a
pre-RSVP
| > | concensus? Cuz if it's time to RSVP, you should say as much =)
| > | 
| > | -scott
| > | 
| > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > | > 
| > | > Next Tuesday, the 13th, CounterCulture @7:00pm. Anyone else
going to
| > | > show up? I'll be there :)
| > | > 
| > | > --Brock
| > | > 
| > | > On 2005.09.07.17.25, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | > | I should have said "mostly seen" rather than "only seen". I
should
| > | > | do a presentation on How To Talk at Important Meetings with
the CTO
| > | > | in Large Electronics Companies.
| > | > | 
| > | > | So, when's the meeting again? Doug, you coming? Cuz, you know,
that
| > | > | would rule. 
| > | > | 
| > | > | Oh yeah --
http://perl.codefetch.com/search?qy=socket&lang=perl
| > | > | check that out. Not mine, but very neat. Searches code
examples
| > | > | from piles of books. 
| > | > | 
| > | > | -scott
| > | > | 
| > | > | On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy at earthlink.net> wrote:
| > | > | > Scott Walters wrote:
| > | > | > 
| > | > | > >Hi Brock,
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >I guess I'm not as much "in to" the formal presentation
spaces. Bowne
| > | > | > >was nice, but I've mostly only seen stupidity and tragedy
around
| > | > | > >conference tables...
| > | > | > >  
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > <SNIP>
| > | > | > 
| > | > | > So which one did I contribute to? Stupidity, tragedy, or
both?  :)
| > | > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > | > | _______________________________________________
| > | > | Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > | Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > | http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Sep 14 10:49:18 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:49:18 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting tomorrow/counter culture cafe as a meeting
	location
In-Reply-To: <20050913194949.GC5790@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
	<432728C0.5080602@earthlink.net>
	<20050913194949.GC5790@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050914174918.GC15273@illogics.org>

Good meeting, everyone. My notes are at http://perldesignpatterns.com/?PerlSixContexts.
Brock will have to figure out if he wants to edit the audio, or host it, or what.

-scott

From jksmith at lexsolutio.com  Wed Sep 14 17:45:43 2005
From: jksmith at lexsolutio.com (Jonathan K. Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:45:43 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Newbie Code
Message-ID: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276A5CB3A@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>

Well here's something that I've been working on, for entirely too long.
It is supposed format some sampling of another text file to easily spot
problems.  The sections that don't work at all are the one with
############ comments above them, #This is just standard notation.  For
those who actually dig through this, drop me a line if you have any
questions.
 
Jonathan Smith
Encore Lex Solutio
www.lexsolutio.com <http://www.lexsolutio.com/> 
1-888-389-1658
 
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From scott at illogics.org  Wed Sep 14 19:14:06 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:14:06 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Newbie Code
In-Reply-To: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276A5CB3A@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
References: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276A5CB3A@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
Message-ID: <20050915021405.GI15273@illogics.org>

Hi John,

>  #!/usr/local/bin/perl -w

I like do:

#!/usr/local/bin/perl

use strict;
use warnings;

Just by the way. Then I can turn around and neatly say 
no warnings 'uninitialized' ;)

>  #Mods and Global constants
>  use Readonly;

Curious. I hadn't seen that module before. Check out constant
(perldoc constant) too and use whichever you like best.

>  use tie::File;

Isn't that Tie::File? This might half-way work on Windows, but it'll
bust completely on Unix. Also, though Perl finds and loads the file, 
it's import() routine won't run because Perl will try to call 
tie::File::import() when it needs to be calling Tie::File::import().

>  #use strict;
>  Readonly my $FIELD_SEPERATOR =>  q{|};
>  Readonly my $TEXT_QUALIFIER   =>  q{^};
>  Readonly my $BACKTICK         =>  q{`};
>  Readonly my $BLANKLINE        => qq{     =====> THIS LINE WAS LEFT INTENTIONALLY BLANK!!!!! <=====\n};

IBM =)

>  # This script shoulld take some large text file possibly containing records
>  # spanning multiple lines and making it possible to view a selection of them
>  # in a specified manner.
>  # Things to note:
>  # 1: The input file contains a header that is a list of field names, which I am
>  # just using to count how many fields there are in this particular file as this
>  # is subject to change.
>  # 2: I am formatting the output because I don't know another way to display
>  # the data.
>  # 3: I want 100 lines from the beginning of the file, 100 from the middle and
>  # 100 lines from the end with some line declared using Readonly above to
>  # indicate a jump in records.
>  # 4: Formatting: I want to find the max value for each field and pad each
>  # value of that field to the max value unless it is greater than 40.  If the
>  # max value is greater than 40 then I want the first 20 character a backtick
>  # and the last 20 characters.
>  
>  #Prepares input and output files
>  print "\nEnter file to view: ";
>  my $input_file = <>;
>  chomp($input_file);
>  
>  
>  # I do this alot too creating variables at this level, so I can pass them
>  # around instead of learning how to actually use references.  <- I think that
>  # makes some sense
>  my $beg_line;
>  my $end_line;
>  my @messy_lines;

Considering that, maybe you should use Perl6::Contexts after all. You'll have
to patch your B::Generate before it'll build with newer Perls, but the
instructions are on http://perl6now.com in the "module statuses" section.
Whoa, I feel a nap coming on.

  use Perl6::Contexts;

  some_function($arg, @arr);

  sub some_function {
      my $arg = shift();
      my @arr = @{ shift() };   # the () is actually needed here
      # ...
  }

Of course, you don't want to copy (= copies) large arrays, so if the
argument is large, use Data::Alias:

  use Perl6::Contexts;
  use Data::Alias;

  some_function($arg, @arr);

  sub some_function {
      my $arg = shift();
      alias my @arr = @{ shift() };   # under alias, = doesn't copy but instead aliases >=)
      # ...
  }

Data::Alias does something even more evil than Per6::Contexts... it
re-implements several virtual machine operations and uses it's own
run-loop with the customized VM ops to achieve this behavior. Wicked.

Regardless, the @{ ... } syntax takes an expression or a reference
and returns an array from that expression or reference.

>  # This section could go in a subroutine or even a mod for later calling...
>  #Create an array of jumbled lines to be cleaned
>  tie(my @lines, "Tie::File", $input_file, mode => 0) 
>          or die "Can't tie $input_file: $!";

or die $!. Good.

>  my $max_lines = $#lines;
>  if ($max_lines <= 300) {
>      # Tie::File chomps lines so have to reappend
>      for my $ctr (0..$max_lines) {
>          $messy_lines[$ctr] = $lines[$ctr]."\n";
>      }

This seems kind of unnecessary and strange... 

Also, you should be using strict and declaring your variables 
in the smallest reasonable scope with 'my'. That is, don't
declare them at the top of the file if they're just used in
one block -- declare them in that block.

>  }
>  else {
>      my $count    = 0;
>      my $mid_beg  = $max_lines / 2 - 50;
>      my $mid_end  = $mid_beg + 99;
>      my $last_beg = $max_lines - 99;
>      my $last_end = $max_lines;
>      
>      # As mentioned above this should give me three chunks of 100 lines with 
>      # $BLANKLINE inserted between chunks.
>      for my $ctr (0..99,$mid_beg..$mid_end,$last_beg..$last_end) {
>          $messy_lines[$count++] = $lines[$ctr]."\n";
>          $messy_lines[$count++] = $BLANKLINE if (($count == 100) or ($count == 201));
>      }
>  }

You can always re-add the the \n when you print the lines. You don't
actually have to add it to the raw data. That'll just waste RAM and CPU.

>  my ($record,$field_count,$cum_line_count,$var_temp);
>  my $line_count = 0;
>  
>  # I am thinking about working on putting this in a mod, so I can use it later

This needs some useful comments. What's the intention of this? What requirements
are there on the input data (what are the limits of the forms it can take)?
What's returned?

>          $line_count++ while $line =~ /\^\|\^/g;

This looks an awful lot like and endless loop waiting to happen. If $line
ever does match /\^\|\^/, incrementing $line_count won't ever make
$line not match that, so the while will keep coming back true over and
over until the end of time.

I guess I'm having a hard time seperating the intention of this routine
from my interpretation of it, and comments are needed for that reason ;)

>  sub cleaner {
>      my @messy_records = @_;
>      my $header = $messy_records[0];
>      $field_count++ while ($header =~ /\^\|\^/g);
>      for my $ctr (1..$#messy_records) {
>          my $line = $messy_records[$ctr];
>          $line_count++ while $line =~ /\^\|\^/g;
>          $cum_line_count += $line_count;
>          if (($cum_line_count != $field_count)) {
>              chomp $messy_records[$ctr];
>              $messy_records[$ctr] .= splice @messy_records, (++$ctr), 1;
>              $ctr--;
>          }
>          else {
>              $cum_line_count = 0;
>          }
>      }
>      return @messy_records;
>  }
>  
>  my @field_lengths;
>  sub max_field_length {
>      my @clean_records = @_;
>      for my $ctr (0..$#clean_records) {
>          my $record = $clean_records[$ctr];
>  
>  ####### Problem with blanklines ########
>  ####### I want it to loop to the next for iteration when it encounters a $BLANKLINE
>  
>          if ($record eq $BLANKLINE) {
>              next;
>          }

I've lost track of what's-what at this point, but off the top of my head,
print out $record in a debug statement and see what it winds up containing.

>          my @field_values = split /\^\|\^/,$record;

Is max_field_length() the place to be actually splitting the records? And what
is cleaner() cleaning up? 

>          if ($ctr == 0) {
>              for my $count (0..$#field_values) {
>                  $field_lengths[$count] = length $field_values[$count];
>              }

Here's a little trick...

    my @field_lengths = map length, @field_values;

A little less tersely:

    my @field_lengths = map { length $_ } @field_values;

map() kind of translates values. For each input value, it runs code (the first
argument) on it, and outputs the result. This might seem excessively terse,
but you get used to it quickly, then all of the for, 0..$#arr, etc stuff 
just seems like distraction that has nothing to do with the algorithm after
that.

>          }
>          else {

Rather than placing if ($str == 0) inside of the loop, just place it's logic before
the loop, and then loop on 1 .. $#clean_records. That way, that if test isn't 
done once for each line. It's a bit faster, but more importantly, a human reading
it will see this logic -- that it runs once, then the loop does the rest of the
lines.

>              for my $count (0..$#field_values) {
>                  if (($field_lengths[$count]) < (length ($field_values[$count]))) {
>                      $field_lengths[$count] = length $field_values[$count];
>                  }
>              }
>          }
>      }
>      # Adjusting for the first and last text qualifiers
>      $field_lengths[0]--;
>      $field_lengths[$#field_lengths]--;
>  }
>  
>  my @cleaned_records = cleaner(@messy_lines);
>  max_field_length(@cleaned_records);

Here's a suggestion. Read one line at a time. Make a routine that takes care of
line continuations (partial lines, whatever). Call that from a loop. Then, in that
loop, split the line into fields. Then pass that array of fields to various routines
as needed. That'll probably only be a routine to format them for print. And the
loop has the option of not calling that format-for-print routine if the line
range is outside of what you want printed as part of your sample data. That'll
save having to use Tie::File, which you mentioned at the meeting as not being
any faster than slurping the whole file into memory (which sucks for large files).
For large files, line-at-a-time is the way to go. Otherwise, the computer tries
to pull it into main memory, but then Perl fills up the computer's memory, so it
has to swap it out to swap on the disk, and then as you try to use the memory,
the disk grinds away trying to swap in the right stuff. You're at least three
times as bad off as going line-by-line from a memory point of view.

One rule of thumb when designing routines -- don't make them return meta-data
that has to be passed in somewhere else. For example, don't make a routine
that returns a list of field lengths. Wrap it all up in a neat little bundle
that's easy to use. Then break the bundle down into its parts if appropriate.
In otherwords, it's okay to call a() and have a() call b() and then c(),
but the main program shouldn't ever have to call b() and then c() if b()
is only useful if you immediately call c() afterwards and c() is only useful
if you've just called b(). If you organize the functions this way, you'll
also find having lots of global data is far less useful. You'll also wind
up with approximately one while() loop rather than dozens, making it all
more concise and easier to follow.

Since you want to know how many lines are in the file, and since you
want to know the maximum size of each field, you could do this in two
passes with two while loops: the first would just count lines and count
field sizes, the second would do the actual printing.

>  my $output_file = "Processed_$input_file";
>  open OUTPUT, ">$output_file";

Please get in the habit of doing:

  open my $outfile, '>', $outputfile or die "$outputfile: $!";

Lexical (my) filehandles close their associated file when they go out of
scope, which takes care of a bunch of possibile errors with unwritten
data and filehandle stomping. Using three arguments rather than two
avoids a whole class of security problems where malicious input can
execute commands at the shell (doesn't apply in this case, but you 
don't want to get in the habit of using the two-argument open), and you
always want to die as close to the failure as possible, otherwise
finding the point of failure is a major chore.

>  for my $ctr (0..$#cleaned_records) {
>      my $record = $cleaned_records[$ctr];
>      my @entered_fields = split /\^\|\^/, $record;

Eeek, why are we splitting on this again? By the way, you can store regular
expressions in strings with the qr{ } quote-like operator:

    my $fieldsep = qr{\^\|\^};
    my @fields = split/$fieldsep/, $record;

Good for re-use and for building larger regexen out of smaller ones.

>      for my $count (0..$#field_lengths) {
>          if ($field_lengths[$count] <= 40) {

I'd take this kind of approach...

   for my $field (@fields) {
       $field = substr $field, 0, 40 if length $field > 40;
   }

>  ############# something like printf OUTPUT %(40-len(field))s,$field
>  ############# but %( or %$ cause problems
>              my $padding_length = 40 - $field_lengths[$count];
>              printf OUTPUT "%-${$padding_length}s", $entered_fields[$count];

Tempted to suggest just marking it up with HTML <table><tr><td>...</td><td>...</td></tr></table>
and then viewing it in lynx or w3m or something ;)

That 40 - $field_length[$count] seems kind of odd. Don't you just want to use
$field_lengths[$count] directly as in the "%-${padding_length}s" thing? Also,
you seem to have an extra $ -- it looks like you're doing soft-reference
on the number. 'use strict' would have cought that. Soft-refs are almost always
an error in Perl 5 code, and 'use strict' makes them go away =)

>          }
>          else {
>              my $begin_str  = substr($entered_fields[$count], 0, 20);
>              my $ending_str = substr($entered_fields[$count], 0, -20);

Ahh, a little more complicated than what I suggested. Still, I'd munge
all of the fields before counting lengths. 

>              my $verified_string = $begin_str." $BACKTICK ".$ending_str;
>              if (length($verified_string) < 43) {

Dumb but simple:

    $verified_string = " $verified_string" while length $verified_string < 43;

Smarter but ugly:

    $verified_string = join '', ' ' x (43 - length $verified_string), $verified_string;

Ahh, heck, use sprintf:

    $verified_string = sprintf '%43s', $verified_string;

Remember, program clutter becomes mental clutter, so the short way is often the
best way =)

>  ################# pad this string to 43 digits
>              }
>              print OUTPUT $verified_string;
>          }
>          if ($count < $#field_lengths) {
>              print OUTPUT '^|^';
>          }
>      }
>  }
>  print OUTPUT "^\n";
>  
>  #Holds the program open
>  print "\n\nEnter <Return> to continue:\n";

Hope this helps. More than anything else, this program needs a re-org. 
When it's working line-by-line and calling subroutines with those lines
or with the split out records from those lines, it'll be easier to follow
and easier to think about. I suggest you hack it all to heck and then
post it again =) When it's a third the size, everything will be more
clear.

Regards,
-scott

>  
>  
>  On  0, "Jonathan K. Smith" <jksmith at lexsolutio.com> wrote:
>  > 
>  >    Well here's something that I've been working on, for entirely too
>  >    long.  It is supposed format some sampling of another text file to
>  >    easily spot problems.  The sections that don't work at all are the one
>  >    with ############ comments above them, #This is just standard
>  >    notation.  For those who actually dig through this, drop me a line if
>  >    you have any questions.
>  >    
>  >    
>  >    
>  >    Jonathan Smith
>  >    
>  >    Encore Lex Solutio
>  >    
>  >    [1]www.lexsolutio.com
>  >    
>  >    1-888-389-1658
>  > 
>  > References
>  > 
>  >    1. http://www.lexsolutio.com/
>  
>  
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>  > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>  > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From jksmith at lexsolutio.com  Fri Sep 16 11:31:17 2005
From: jksmith at lexsolutio.com (Jonathan K. Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:31:17 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Newbie Code
Message-ID: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276A5CE9C@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>

 
I thought I was saving some time using tie instead of reading each line?
And while I'm thinking this might be a really dumb question, do you mean
embbed while loops? Wouldn't that make for a very long embedded while
condition?  I'm thinking you mean something else entirely, but I'm just
can't figure out what you meant.  I'm completely open to trying it your
way, I just don't see what you mean by the structure of it.

Jonathan Smith
Encore Lex Solutio
www.lexsolutio.com
1-888-389-1658

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:28 AM
To: Jonathan K. Smith
Subject: Re: Newbie Code

Hi Johnathan,

If you mail the list, lurkers might benefit from the Q&A, and other
people might have other helpful comments.

You really, really should read the file line-by-line twice, using just
two while() loops, then call other routines with those lines and split
apart arrays. You'll have two while loops instead of a dozen for loops.
Trust me on this one.

-scott

On  0, "Jonathan K. Smith" <jksmith at lexsolutio.com> wrote:
> 
>    # Here is a portion of the newer code that I'm doing...
>    # So at the start of my script I'll do this....
>    
>    
>    
>    tie(my @input_file_lines, "Tie::File", $input_file, mode => 0)
>            or die "Can't tie $input_file: $!";
>    
>    
>    
>    # Then I am still taking three slices from beginning, middle and
end
>    # The @chunk_nums define the starting and ending line of
>    # each slice I'm going to take out of the file to view
>    
>    
>    
>    my @chunk_nums = ($beg_start_line,  $beg_end_line,
>                      $mid_start_line,  $mid_end_line,
>                      $last_start_line, $last_end_line);
>    for my $ctr (0..2) {
>        # I am multiplying the $ctr by 2 to get the even number or
>        # in turn the first of each two element pair
>        for my $line_num ($chunk_nums[2*$ctr]..$chunk_nums[2*$ctr + 1])
{
>            push @return _lines, $input_file_lines[$number];
>        }
>    }
>    return @return_lines;
>    
>    
>    
>    What I'm wondering while I ponder this, isn't there a method to
>    accomplish this without embedding for loops?
>    
>    Oh and BTW am I supposed to send mail directly to you or to the
list?
>    
>    
>    
>    Jonathan Smith
>    
>    Encore Lex Solutio
>    
>    [1]www.lexsolutio.com
>    
>    1-888-389-1658
>    
>    
>      _________________________________________________________________
>    
>    From: Jonathan K. Smith
>    Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:46 PM
>    To: 'phoenix-pm at pm.org'
>    Subject: Newbie Code
>    
>    Well here's something that I've been working on, for entirely too
>    long.  It is supposed format some sampling of another text file to
>    easily spot problems.  The sections that don't work at all are the
one
>    with ############ comments above them, #This is just standard
>    notation.  For those who actually dig through this, drop me a line
if
>    you have any questions.
>    
>    
>    
>    Jonathan Smith
>    
>    Encore Lex Solutio
>    
>    [2]www.lexsolutio.com
>    
>    1-888-389-1658
> 
> References
> 
>    1. http://www.lexsolutio.com/
>    2. http://www.lexsolutio.com/



From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep 16 11:44:49 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:44:49 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Newbie Code
In-Reply-To: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276A5CE9C@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
References: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276A5CE9C@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
Message-ID: <20050916184449.GH15273@illogics.org>

No, absolutely not. As I explained in the last email, trying to tie it
sucks it all into memory, and then you're beating the VM system 3-4
times as hard as going through line by line. You don't want to suck 
everything into memory when "everything" is a lot fo stuff.

Call routines from the loops. Call one to split the lines. Call another to
record how long the longest field was. Call another to output values.
The main loop shouldn't be much more than reading, calling things, and
deciding whether to 'next' and skip the line because the current line
number is out of range.

Here's a sample closure to remember the field lengths:

sub make_field_lengths_counter {
    my @field_lengths;
    sub {
        for my $i (0.. at _) {
            $field_lengths[$i] = length $_[$i] if length $_[$i] > $field_lengths[$i];
        }
        return @field_lengths; 
    };
};

*field_lengths_counter = make_field_lengths_counter();

Then call field_lengths_counter() with a list of fields and get back a list
of the largest size it's seen for each field so far.

This routine also makes the point that it's never necessary to use global
variables. And of course it makes the point that useful features can be
moved to subroutines.

-scott



On  0, "Jonathan K. Smith" <jksmith at lexsolutio.com> wrote:
>  
> I thought I was saving some time using tie instead of reading each line?
> And while I'm thinking this might be a really dumb question, do you mean
> embbed while loops? Wouldn't that make for a very long embedded while
> condition?  I'm thinking you mean something else entirely, but I'm just
> can't figure out what you meant.  I'm completely open to trying it your
> way, I just don't see what you mean by the structure of it.
> 
> Jonathan Smith
> Encore Lex Solutio
> www.lexsolutio.com
> 1-888-389-1658
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org] 
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:28 AM
> To: Jonathan K. Smith
> Subject: Re: Newbie Code
> 
> Hi Johnathan,
> 
> If you mail the list, lurkers might benefit from the Q&A, and other
> people might have other helpful comments.
> 
> You really, really should read the file line-by-line twice, using just
> two while() loops, then call other routines with those lines and split
> apart arrays. You'll have two while loops instead of a dozen for loops.
> Trust me on this one.
> 
> -scott
> 
> On  0, "Jonathan K. Smith" <jksmith at lexsolutio.com> wrote:
> > 
> >    # Here is a portion of the newer code that I'm doing...
> >    # So at the start of my script I'll do this....
> >    
> >    
> >    
> >    tie(my @input_file_lines, "Tie::File", $input_file, mode => 0)
> >            or die "Can't tie $input_file: $!";
> >    
> >    
> >    
> >    # Then I am still taking three slices from beginning, middle and
> end
> >    # The @chunk_nums define the starting and ending line of
> >    # each slice I'm going to take out of the file to view
> >    
> >    
> >    
> >    my @chunk_nums = ($beg_start_line,  $beg_end_line,
> >                      $mid_start_line,  $mid_end_line,
> >                      $last_start_line, $last_end_line);
> >    for my $ctr (0..2) {
> >        # I am multiplying the $ctr by 2 to get the even number or
> >        # in turn the first of each two element pair
> >        for my $line_num ($chunk_nums[2*$ctr]..$chunk_nums[2*$ctr + 1])
> {
> >            push @return _lines, $input_file_lines[$number];
> >        }
> >    }
> >    return @return_lines;
> >    
> >    
> >    
> >    What I'm wondering while I ponder this, isn't there a method to
> >    accomplish this without embedding for loops?
> >    
> >    Oh and BTW am I supposed to send mail directly to you or to the
> list?
> >    
> >    
> >    
> >    Jonathan Smith
> >    
> >    Encore Lex Solutio
> >    
> >    [1]www.lexsolutio.com
> >    
> >    1-888-389-1658
> >    
> >    
> >      _________________________________________________________________
> >    
> >    From: Jonathan K. Smith
> >    Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:46 PM
> >    To: 'phoenix-pm at pm.org'
> >    Subject: Newbie Code
> >    
> >    Well here's something that I've been working on, for entirely too
> >    long.  It is supposed format some sampling of another text file to
> >    easily spot problems.  The sections that don't work at all are the
> one
> >    with ############ comments above them, #This is just standard
> >    notation.  For those who actually dig through this, drop me a line
> if
> >    you have any questions.
> >    
> >    
> >    
> >    Jonathan Smith
> >    
> >    Encore Lex Solutio
> >    
> >    [2]www.lexsolutio.com
> >    
> >    1-888-389-1658
> > 
> > References
> > 
> >    1. http://www.lexsolutio.com/
> >    2. http://www.lexsolutio.com/
> 
> 

From jksmith at lexsolutio.com  Thu Sep 22 17:22:42 2005
From: jksmith at lexsolutio.com (Jonathan K. Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:22:42 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting
Message-ID: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276AA2C74@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>

    I know we just had a meeting, but I was hoping to suggest a topic...
References?  I don't know how much interest there is with everyone else,
but everything that I find about them all the looks the same to me..
something straight out of organic chemistry that makes even less sense
to me now than it did when I first went through it.  Also I'm hoping
that the meeting isn't going to be during the second week of Oct as I'll
be out of town.  Anyways, I really enjoyed the first meeting and learned
alot for which I am very thankful, though really opened my mind about
how big a task I've decided to tackle and how much more I need to learn.
I'm slowly making progress on the code that was sent out earlier, so
hopefully will have something that will make a little more sense and
will be easier to correct this time.  Mostly putting in lots of comments
and using more subroutines.
 
Jonathan Smith
Sic Volere Parcas
So Spin the Fates
-------------- next part --------------
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From scott at illogics.org  Thu Sep 22 17:40:52 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:40:52 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting
In-Reply-To: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276AA2C74@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
References: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276AA2C74@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
Message-ID: <20050923004051.GS15273@illogics.org>

Yes, should do a meeting before too long. Maybe in Tempe this time. 
Maybe SCC. As far as references go, that sounds like a sequal to Brock's
talk, or a prequal to mine. Regardless, you might consider picking up a
copy of Randal Schwartz's _Learning Modules, References, and Objects_.
It's a link off of http://perl.ora.com. There's also perldoc perlreftut.
That's a tutorial. Tutorials are much better for learning than references ;)

Good luck!
-scott


On  0, "Jonathan K. Smith" <jksmith at lexsolutio.com> wrote:
> 
>        I know we just had a meeting, but I was hoping to suggest a
>    topic... References?  I don't know how much interest there is with
>    everyone else, but everything that I find about them all the looks the
>    same to me.. something straight out of organic chemistry that makes
>    even less sense to me now than it did when I first went through it.
>    Also I'm hoping that the meeting isn't going to be during the second
>    week of Oct as I'll be out of town.  Anyways, I really enjoyed the
>    first meeting and learned alot for which I am very thankful, though
>    really opened my mind about how big a task I've decided to tackle and
>    how much more I need to learn.  I'm slowly making progress on the code
>    that was sent out earlier, so hopefully will have something that will
>    make a little more sense and will be easier to correct this time.
>    Mostly putting in lots of comments and using more subroutines.
>    
>    
>    
>    Jonathan Smith
>    
>    Sic Volere Parcas
>    
>    So Spin the Fates

> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep 23 11:59:19 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:59:19 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] One-off PHP gig, short notice
In-Reply-To: <20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050912202542.GX15273@illogics.org>
	<20050912233017.GA5230@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050923185919.GU15273@illogics.org>

Hi everybody!!

I know someone who needs emergency notice PHP work done. (I know this is
the Perl Mongers, but I thought I'd pass work to someone who does PHP and
Perl, and I'm more likely to be able to vouch for someone in Phoenix.PM).
An existing PHP script needs to be integrated in a way it was meant
to be integrated, but the graphic artists there don't understand
programming issues well enough to do it themselves. Despite the emergency
notice, this is not a cash cow (or I'd pretend to know PHP).

Drop me an email if you think you have time free during business hours
tomorrow or the next day.

Thanks,
-scott


From Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com  Fri Sep 23 15:56:15 2005
From: Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com (Loo, Peter)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:56:15 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] perl -e
Message-ID: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC217D012@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com>

Hello All,
 
I am currently writing a shell program to automate a process which
requires the time value to do calculation.  I was trying to get the
epoch time (seconds since January 1, 1970) using the Unix "date '+%s'"
command.  However, AIX does not support "%s".  So I am thinking about
writing my own C program just to output this seconds value, then I
thought about using "localtime" in PERL.  What do you recommend?
 
Thank you.
 
Peter Loo
Technical Services Dept
Banner Health
Phoenix, AZ 85008

 

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From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Fri Sep 23 16:06:00 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (andypm@exiledplanet.org)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:06:00 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] perl -e
Message-ID: <5179777.1127516800191.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com>

Actually, check out the time() function.  It returns the seconds since the epoch (for whatever is considered the epoch on your platform).  'perldoc -f time' at a command prompt should give you the necessary info, or check your local copy of the Camel.

[aj]

"Loo, Peter" <Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com> wrote:
__________
> Pie Charts
>      Hello  All,
> 
> I am  currently writing a shell program to automate a processwhich requires the  time value to do calculation. I was trying to get the epoch time (seconds  since January 1, 1970) using the Unix "date '+%s'" command. However, AIX  does not support "%s". So I am thinking about writing my own C program  just to output this seconds value, then I thought about using "localtime" in  PERL. What do you recommend?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Peter Loo
> Technical Services  Dept
> Banner  Health
> Phoenix, AZ  85008
> 
> 


From Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com  Fri Sep 23 16:28:53 2005
From: Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com (Loo, Peter)
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:28:53 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] perl -e
Message-ID: <54B11B8F032D284890092AC8E3194BC217D018@PHX01067.bhs.bannerhealth.com>


Thanks you very much.  Here is what I will do:

CURTIME=`perl -e 'print(time())'`

Perhaps I will just rewrite the whole program in PERL.

Thank you.
 
Peter Loo

-----Original Message-----
From: aj at exiledplanet.org [mailto:aj at exiledplanet.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:04 PM
To: Loo, Peter; phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: re: [Phoenix-pm] perl -e

Actually, check out the time() function.  It returns the seconds since
the epoch (for whatever is considered the epoch on your platform).
'perldoc -f time' at a command prompt should give you the necessary
info, or check your local copy of the Camel.

[aj]

"Loo, Peter" <Peter.Loo at bannerhealth.com> wrote:
__________
> Pie Charts
>      Hello  All,
> 
> I am  currently writing a shell program to automate a processwhich
requires the  time value to do calculation. I was trying to get the
epoch time (seconds  since January 1, 1970) using the Unix "date '+%s'"
command. However, AIX  does not support "%s". So I am thinking about
writing my own C program  just to output this seconds value, then I
thought about using "localtime" in  PERL. What do you recommend?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Peter Loo
> Technical Services  Dept
> Banner  Health
> Phoenix, AZ  85008
> 
> 


From scott at illogics.org  Sat Sep 24 14:33:27 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:33:27 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Nathan and Google
In-Reply-To: <B0667DD2-44D3-44DD-A42A-44C4580BB59C@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <20050828221637.GK15520@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902165253.GB3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050902171902.GS15273@illogics.org>
	<431B6C55.1030003@earthlink.net>
	<20050908002528.GP15273@illogics.org>
	<20050908002756.GR3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050908031526.GQ15273@illogics.org>
	<20050909021341.GT3643@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050909024500.GT15273@illogics.org>
	<B0667DD2-44D3-44DD-A42A-44C4580BB59C@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20050924213327.GW15273@illogics.org>

http://www.flickr.com/photos/caterina/43706782/in/photostream/

Nathan Torkington's visiter's badge to Google.

From jksmith at lexsolutio.com  Thu Sep 29 13:42:07 2005
From: jksmith at lexsolutio.com (Jonathan K. Smith)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:42:07 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] 3D Datastructure
Message-ID: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276AA38B6@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>

Hey made my first 3d data structure and it worked!! Woot Woot!!  Anyways
thought I'd append it and see what you'll thought of my first attempt
into references.  Things I should change to improve these types of
scripts.
 
Jonathan Smith
Encore Lex Solutio
www.lexsolutio.com <http://www.lexsolutio.com/> 
1-888-389-1658
 
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From scott at illogics.org  Fri Sep 30 13:26:17 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:26:17 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] 3D Datastructure
In-Reply-To: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276AA38B6@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
References: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D2276AA38B6@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
Message-ID: <20050930202617.GG15273@illogics.org>

Jonathan,

Good. I still see you using global variables instead of passing references.

  sub something {
    my $arrref = shift;
    foreach my $element (@$arrref) { ... }
    print $arrref->[3];
  }

  my @array = ( 1 .. 20 );
  foreach my $element (@array) { ... }
  print $array[3];
  something(\@array); 

The \ creates a reference to an array, hash, etc. (People usually say "takes
a reference".) 

This little example shows how to work with a reference when you have one.
Rather than doing a foreach over @array, you're doing it over @$arrayref.
(Rather than pushing onto @array, you push onto @arrayref, etc.) Rather
than accessing individual elements with $array[n], they're accessed like
$arrref->[n]. Hashes are exactly the same except you subscript them
like $hashref->{key} and use them as a hash with hash built-ins like %$hashref.
For example, you can do keys %$hashref.

By the way, Perl6::Contexts was meant to get rid of the nastier parts of
syntax in these examples. I *hate* having to write %$foo, foo(\%one, \@two, 
\%three), etc. 

Oh -- Data::Alias. You can have the advantages of reference (data sharing between
the caller and callee, speed, passing multidim datastructures, etc) with the
syntax of plain old hashes and arrays that way too:

  use Data::Alias;

  sub something {
    alias my @arr = shift;
    foreach my $element (@arr) { ... }
    print $arr[3];
  }

  my @array = ( 1 .. 20 );
  foreach my $element (@array) { ... }
  print $array[3];
  something(\@array);

This so rocks. 

Working with references as function arguments is a good next step after 
multidim data structures. But good work. I hope it helps to have someone pushing
you =P

Also by the way, the Data Structures in Perl 6 Now has a lot to say about all 
of this ;)

-scott



  

On  0, "Jonathan K. Smith" <jksmith at lexsolutio.com> wrote:
> 
>    Hey made my first 3d data structure and it worked!! Woot Woot!!
>    Anyways thought I'd append it and see what you'll thought of my first
>    attempt into references.  Things I should change to improve these
>    types of scripts.
>    
>    
>    
>    Jonathan Smith
>    
>    Encore Lex Solutio
>    
>    [1]www.lexsolutio.com
>    
>    1-888-389-1658
> 
> References
> 
>    1. http://www.lexsolutio.com/


> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm