From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Jul  1 10:35:32 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:35:32 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting yesterday (June 30) wrapup
Message-ID: <20050701173532.GC12424@thelackthereof.org>


We had a lovely meeting yesterday, with 10 people enjoying dinner and
perl-talk at Nello's Pizza. In addition to random perl-related
conversation, Mike Friedman spoke of HighWire Press [1] and their use of
Perl, and Scott Walters told us about how he does web-scraping (and he
will post code soon we hope :) ).

We'll have the website up soon enough. In the meantime keep an eye out
here for the next meeting topic/time/location, which I will have picked
out within the next two weeks. Please send topic requests and
volunteership here to the list. I like the idea of doing two talks like
we did this time so that we can cover a potentially wider range of
interest and experience.

Have a good (long) weekend!
--Brock

  [1] http://highwire.stanford.edu/


From scott at illogics.org  Fri Jul  1 12:55:33 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:55:33 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting yesterday (June 30) wrapup
In-Reply-To: <20050701173532.GC12424@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050701173532.GC12424@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050701195533.GB3792@illogics.org>

Hi everyone,

Thanks for coming, and thanks for listening to me talk. As usual, I talked
for longer than I meant to. Whoops. Nello's was unusually busy. We'll
probably do Nello's again, but not for a while, and not for code 
presentations... regardless, I think having food at the meetings made
things a lot easier (we're all busy people) so I think I'll see about
ordering out for pizza for our regular meetings, whereever they wind up. 

Good to meet all of the new people. I'm sorry I didn't a chance to chat with 
you guys more and I hope you'll be back. It's hard to get to know people
in two hours with so much chaos. 

I completely forgot to give the door prize, CGI Programming with Perl, to
Brock to give away. D'oh! Next meeting, we'll just have to have two door prizes. 
Sorry to everyone who only came because of the door prize. Next time, remind 
me, or Brock, or someone. 

Er, ehm, without further ado, here's yafro.pl.

Again, you shouldn't use http.pm or TransientBaby -- they're for educational
purposes only. If you actually do any Web scraping, use HTML::Parser,
HTML::TableExtractor, or something sane. Which means you'll have
to modify this to use another HTML parser. That shouldn't be hard to
do if you use an event based one. 

I was expecting people to chime in and comment on how *they* scraped 
Web content but instead Michael just gave a lot of examples of how he 
*blocks* robots. Heh, heh, heh. 

For the benefit of people not at the meeting, here are a few comments on
the code: would have been easier to just extract all images with URLs
matching a certain pattern, and the *get_page = http::generate_get_page;
this is odd and would have been better done with the Exporter (module).

Okay. Talk to ya'll later.
-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> We had a lovely meeting yesterday, with 10 people enjoying dinner and
> perl-talk at Nello's Pizza. In addition to random perl-related
> conversation, Mike Friedman spoke of HighWire Press [1] and their use of
> Perl, and Scott Walters told us about how he does web-scraping (and he
> will post code soon we hope :) ).
> 
> We'll have the website up soon enough. In the meantime keep an eye out
> here for the next meeting topic/time/location, which I will have picked
> out within the next two weeks. Please send topic requests and
> volunteership here to the list. I like the idea of doing two talks like
> we did this time so that we can cover a potentially wider range of
> interest and experience.
> 
> Have a good (long) weekend!
> --Brock
> 
>   [1] http://highwire.stanford.edu/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: yafro.pl
Type: application/x-perl
Size: 10120 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/phoenix-pm/attachments/20050701/933934af/yafro-0001.bin
-------------- next part --------------

0. About

  a. This is how Scott scrapes Web content
  b. This is not necessarily how you should scrape Web content
  c. Minimal examples are for illustration of the grammars and protocols 

1. Fetching
  
  a. LWP
  b. LWP::Simple
  c. http.pm 
     **** 1st example ****
     I.   Handles POST + GET in IIS 
     II.  Note the socket read timeouts as an alternative to alarm
     III. Browser sessions are closures with cookies and the referer bound in
     IV.  Referer tag is automagically correct -- great for stubborn sites
     V.   Knows how to deal with ASP/IIS applications that expect GET and POST
          data to be separate
     VI.  HTTP consists of a connection, sending the handshake, sending
          headers, waiting for a reply, then closing the connection

2. Parsing

  a. Every novice wants to use regex -- regexen are:
     I.   Fragile
     II.  Non-reenterant, therefore non-recursive
     III. Not stateful, therefore not a grammar -- HTML requires a grammar
     IV.  Doomed to failure
  b. HTML::LinkExtor, HTML::LinkExtactor for easy spiders -- don't forget 
     robots.txt
  c. HTML::TableExtractor, HTML::TableContentParser
  d. HTML::TreeBuilder
     I.   Insert nodes

simple recurse through tree

     II.  Remove nodes
     III. Turn everything under a node back into HTML
     IV.  Easy ton navigate the structure of the document
     V.   Easy to modify document
     VI.  Hard to extract repeated structures in the document
  e. HTML::Parser
     I.   Easy to extract repeated non-table structures
     II.  Event driven -- HTML tags generate callback events
  f. my minimal HTML parser -- like HTML::Parser -- 
     ***** 3rd example ******
     I.   This simple, minimal parser is incomplete
     II.  The various states illustrate statefulness of the HTML grammar
          . Between tags
          . Inside of tag
          . Inside of quoted values inside of tags
  g. yafro.pl -- an exampling of using an event driven HTML parser
     I.   Extracts data in a hidden field from the login form
     II.  Logs in, keeping cookies, returning hidden field data 
     III. parse_index() parses photo index pages
          . performs a callback operation for each image link found
          . identifies link to previous month's index
          . identifies link to next "with-in month" index page
          . returns link to next "with-in month" page if it exists, otherwise 
            falls back on previous month's index page
     IV.  parse_index() uses coroutines to repeatedly fall back on the HTML 
          parser without having to return -- coroutines do for 'return' what
          funcation calls did for 'goto' -- this lets us keep state implicitly
     V.   parse_index()'s caller starts off with a known URL for the latest 
          index page and loops as long parse_index() returns it another index 
          page
     VI.   Each iteration, all discovered images are downloaded and the list 
          of queued images is zeroed
     VII. Cheats and computes the full image name/location from the thumbnail 
          name.
     IIX. yafro wasn't a hard site to crack, but a lot of this
          infrastructure was created for sites that are
  h. table tweakers... no, not today
 
3. Normalizing

  a. Most dynamic data comes from a database
  b. A lot of dynamic data comes from a relational, structured database
  c. Why not reconstruct the original database?
     I.   Web output is the result of a join'ing several tables together
     II.  To normalize it again, identify the keys, supporting values,
          and relations
     III. By virtue of being on the same row of output, values relate
          to each other

4. Other scrapers
   a. budweiser.com
   b. Thomas Register (geekpac)
   c. Google (geekdate)
   d. I forget...
   

   1 ----- Fetching -------
   2 
   3 1.a. LWP
   4 
   5          # Create a user agent object
   6          use LWP::UserAgent;
   7          $ua = LWP::UserAgent->new;
   8          $ua->agent("MyApp/0.1 ");
   9 
  10          # Create a request
  11          my $req = HTTP::Request->new(POST =>
     'http://search.cpan.org/search');
  12          $req->content_type('application/x-www-form-urlencoded');
  13          $req->content('query=libwww-perl&mode=dist');
  14 
  15          # Pass request to the user agent and get a response back
  16          my $res = $ua->request($req);
  17 
  18          # Check the outcome of the response
  19          if ($res->is_success) {
  20              print $res->content;
  21          }
  22 
  23 1.b. LWP::Simple
  24 
  25         use LWP::Simple;
  26         $content = get("http://www.sn.no/");
  27         die "Couldn't get it!" unless defined $content;
  28 
  29 1.c. http.pm
  30 
  31   use http;
  32   *get_page = http::generate_get_page;
  33   ($status, $headers, $html) = get_page(
  34       $next_page,
  35       state    => $hidden_state_value,
  36       login    => 'Login',
  37       %login_info,
  38   );
  39 
  40 
  41 ----- yafro.pl ------
  42 
  43 (Excerpts)
  44 
  45 #!/usr/bin/perl
  46 
  47 #
  48 # Downloads all pictures for a given user from yafro.com. 
  49 #
  50 # Usage: perl yafro.pl --user <username>
  51 #
  52 
  53 use strict;
  54 use warnings;
  55 
  56 use Socket;
  57 
  58 use IO::Handle;
  59 use IO::Socket::INET;
  60 
  61 use Coro;
  62 use Coro::Cont;
  63 
  64 use TransientBaby::Forms;
  65 use TransientBaby;
  66 
  67 use http;
  68 
  69 my $debug = 1;
  70 
  71 my %login_info = (
  72     email    => 'scott at slowass.net',
  73     passwd   => 'XX',
  74 );
  75 
  76 # ... (stuff here)
  77 
  78 $http::ua = 'Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8)
     Gecko/20050511 Firefox';
  79 
  80 *get_page = http::generate_get_page;
  81 
  82 sub parse_index {
  83 
  84     my $page = shift;
  85     my $imagehit = shift; ref $imagehit eq 'CODE' or die;
  86 
  87     my $prev_month;
  88     my $next_month;
  89     my $next_within_month;
  90 
  91     TransientBaby::Forms::parse_html($page, csub {
  92 
  93         # This crawls index pages, picks out photos, and calls-back links
     to the 
  94         # photos/photo pages (haven't decided) back. It yields links to
     the next
  95         # index page. This is the next page within the month or else the
     previous
  96         # month, when those are exhausted.
  97 
  98         no warnings 'uninitialized';
  99 
 100         my $accessor; 
 101         my %ent;
 102 
 103         # Previous month (one of):
 104 
 105         # <tr class="row0"><td class="col0"><table style="border: solid
     0px black" width=100% cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr
     class="headerRow"><td class="col0" align=left><font size=2>Show x's
     Photos in:</font> &nbsp <font size=2><b><nobr><a
     href='http://x.yafro.com/photos/2005/5/0'><<</a> June 2005 <font
     size=2 color=#999999>>></font></nobr></b></font></td></tr>
 106 
 107         # <tr class="row0"><td class="col0"><table style="border: solid
     0px black" width=100% cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0><tr
     class="headerRow"><td class="col0" align=left><font size=2>Show x's
     Photos in:</font> &nbsp <font size=2><b><nobr><a
     href='http://x.yafro.com/photos/2005/5/0'><<</a> June 2005 <font
     size=2 color=#999999>>></font></nobr></b></font></td></tr>
 108 
 109         do {
 110             yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 111         } until $ent{tag} eq 'lit' and $ent{text} =~ m/Photos in/;
 112 
 113         $debug and print "1. 'Photos in'\n";
 114 
 115         for(;;) {
 116             yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 117             if($ent{tag} eq 'a') {
 118                 $prev_month = $ent{href};
 119                 last;
 120             } elsif($ent{tag} eq 'font' and $ent{color} eq '#999999') {
 121                 # <font size=2 color=#999999> separates prev and next
     links as far as we're concerned
 122                 $prev_month = undef;
 123                 last;
 124             }
 125         }
 126 
 127         $debug and print "2. \$prev_month: $prev_month\n";
 128 
 129         for(;;) {
 130             yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 131             if($ent{tag} eq 'a') {
 132                 $next_month = $ent{href};
 133                 last;
 134             } elsif($ent{tag} eq '/nobr') {
 135                 # the </nobr> means this section is all over
 136                 $next_month = undef;
 137                 last;
 138             }
 139         }
 140         
 141         $debug and print "3. \$next_month: $next_month\n";
 142 
 143         # Image:
 144 
 145         # <a href="http://x.yafro.com/photo/897523"
     onmouseout="hideddrivetip()" onmouseover="ddrivetip('........')">
 146         # <img src='http://photos.yafro.com/pics3/i/20050627/07/3/4
     a/34ab316226ff678b4a49a26bd50_thumb.jpg' border=0>
 147 
 148         # or:
 149 
 150         # <a href="http://x.yafro.com/photo/896918"><img
     src='http://photos.yafro.com/pics3/i/20050628/22/f/b/0/fb04c3dab88ed
     dff08821f95b9d400_thumb.jpg' border=0></a><br><nobr><font
     size=1>June 28</font><font size=1>, </font><font size=1>10:09
     PM</font></nobr><br><center><a href='http://x.yafro.com/photo/896918
     >2 comments</a>
 151 
 152         # "Photos in" seems to appear only before the prev/next month
     selected... not sure in which case this worked
 153         # do {
 154         #     yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 155         # } until $ent{tag} eq 'lit' and $ent{text} =~ m/Photos posted
     in/;
 156 
 157         $debug and print "4. 'Photos posted in'\n";
 158 
 159         for(;;) {
 160             yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 161             last if $ent{tag} eq 'lit' and $ent{text} =~ m/Pages for/;
 162             # $debug and print "debug: looking for image hits: tag is
     $ent{tag}\n";
 163             # if($ent{tag} eq 'a' and $ent{onmouseout} and
     $ent{onmouseover}) # images without labels don't have these!
 164             if($ent{tag} eq 'a') {
 165                 yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 166                 last if $ent{tag} eq 'lit' and $ent{text} =~ m/Pages
     for/;
 167                 if($ent{tag} eq 'img') {
 168                     $debug and print "5. Image hit: $ent{src}\n";
 169                     $imagehit->($ent{src});
 170                 } elsif($ent{tag} eq 'lit') {
 171                     next; # that's okay -- a href surrounds the image and
     an identical one surrounds any text after 
 172                           # the image.
 173                 } else {
 174                     print "debug: in middle of thumbnails, just after a
     href, expected img src, instead got $ent{tag}!\n";
 175                 }
 176             }
 177         }
 178 
 179         $debug and print "6. 'Pages for'\n";
 180 
 181         # Next index page within current month:
 182 
 183         # <tr class="row0"><td class="col0">Pages for June: <font size=1
     color=#999999><b><</b></font> <font size=3
     color=#990033><b>1</b></font> <a href='http://x.yafro.com/photos/200
     /6/1'><font size=2><b>2</b></font></a> <a
     href='http://x.yafro.com/photos/2005/6/2'><font
     size=2><b>3</b></font></a> <a href='http://x.yafro.com/photos/2005/6
     3'><font size=2><b>4</b></font></a>
 184 
 185         for(;;) {
 186             yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 187             last if $ent{tag} eq '/tr';
 188             # this sequence marks the current page: <font size=3
     color=#990033> <b>1</b></font>
 189             if($ent{tag} eq 'font' and $ent{color} eq '#990033') {
 190                 do {
 191                     yield; ($accessor, %ent) = @_;
 192                     last if $ent{tag} eq '/tr';
 193                     if($ent{tag} eq 'a') {
 194                         $debug and print "7. Next within-month page:
     $ent{href}\n";
 195                         $next_within_month = $ent{href};
 196                         last;
 197                     }
 198                 } until 0;
 199             }
 200         }
 201 
 202     });
 203 
 204     return $next_within_month if $next_within_month;
 205     return $prev_month if $prev_month;
 206     return undef; # no more indices to crawl
 207 
 208 }
 209 
 210 # ...
 211 
 212 my $status;
 213 my $headers; 
 214 my $html;
 215 
 216 my $next_page;
 217 
 218 # ...
 219 
 220 # log-in as self so I can see the pr0n
 221 
 222 ($status, $headers, $html) = get_page(
 223     'http://www.yafro.com/',
 224 );
 225 
 226 my $hidden_state_value;
 227 
 228 TransientBaby::Forms::parse_html($html, sub {
 229     my $accessor = shift;
 230     my %ent = @_;
 231     $next_page = $ent{action} if $ent{tag} eq 'form' and exists
     $ent{name} and $ent{name} eq 'loginbox';
 232     $hidden_state_value = $ent{value} if $ent{tag} eq 'input' and exists
     $ent{name} and $ent{name} eq 'state';
 233 });
 234 
 235 # ...
 236 
 237 ($status, $headers, $html) = get_page(
 238     $next_page,
 239     state    => $hidden_state_value,
 240     login    => 'Login',
 241     %login_info,
 242 );
 243 
 244 $html =~ m/My Photos posted in/ or die "Login apparently failed - string
     'My Photos posted in' not found in results";
 245 
 246 # ...
 247 
 248 $next_page = "http://$user.yafro.com";
 249 
 250 do {
 251     ($status, $headers, $html) = get_page($next_page);
 252     die unless $status == 200;
 253     my @imagehits;
 254     $next_page = parse_index(
 255         $html, sub { push @imagehits, shift(); },
 256     );
 257     printf "\n\nimage hits: %d\nnext page: %s\n\n", scalar @imagehits,
     $next_page || '<no next page>';
 258     foreach my $image (@imagehits) {
 259         my $local_image;
 260         $image =~ s/_thumb\.jpg$/_full.jpg/;
 261         $image =~ m{.*/(.*)} ? $local_image = "jpg/$user/$1" : die;
 262         -f $local_image and do {
 263             $debug and print "$local_image already exists -- not
     re-downloading\n";
 264             next;
 265         };
 266         (my $status, my $headers, my $jpg) = get_page($image);
 267         open my $f, '>', $local_image or die "$local_image: $!";
 268         $f->print($jpg);
 269         $f->close;
 270     }
 271 } while $next_page;
 272 
 273 
 274 --- http.pm ------
 275 
 276 (Exceprts)
 277 
 278 package http;
 279 
 280 use strict;
 281 use warnings;
 282 
 283 use Socket;
 284 use IO::Handle;
 285 use IO::Socket::INET;
 286 use POSIX;
 287 
 288 our $ua;
 289 our $debug = 1;
 290 
 291 sub generate_get_page {
 292 
 293     my %cookies;
 294     my $referer;
 295     $ua or die "set \$http::ua or something";
 296 
 297     return sub {
 298 
 299         (my $page, my @args) = @_;
 300 
 301         my @headers; 
 302         push @headers, "Referer: $referer" if $referer; 
 303 
 304         my $cookies = '';
 305         foreach my $k (keys %cookies) { $cookies .= '; ' if $cookies;
     $cookies .= "$k=$cookies{$k}"; }
 306 print "Cookies! $cookies\n";
 307 
 308         (my $status, my $headers, my $html) = get_page($page, $cookies,
     $ua, \@headers, \@args); 
 309 
 310         %cookies = (%cookies, map { (split /=/, $_) } map { (split /; +/,
     $_)[0] } map { $_->[1] } grep { $_->[0] eq 'Set-Cookie' }
     @$headers);
 311         # delete $cookies{$_} for qw/expires path domain/;
 312 
 313         $referer = $page if grep { lc($_->[0]) eq 'content-type' and
     $_->[1] =~ m<text/html>i } @$headers;
 314         $referer = $page unless grep { lc($_->[0]) eq 'content-type' }
     @$headers; # No Content-Type? Must be text/html.
 315         $debug > 0 and printf "debug: referer is %s\n", $referer || '<not
     set>';
 316 
 317         return ($status, $headers, $html);
 318 
 319     };
 320 }
 321 
 322 sub get_page {
 323 
 324     my $url = shift;
 325     my $cookies = shift;
 326     my $ua = shift;
 327     my @headers = @{ shift() };
 328     my @form = @{ shift() };
 329 
 330     # XXX kind of inconsistant that @headers here is a list of the format
     "Foo: Bar" where it's returned as ['Foo', 'Bar']
 331 
 332     my $postdata = '';
 333     my $port = 80;
 334     my $output = '';
 335 
 336     $debug > 0 and print "\n\ndebug: get_page: $url\n\n";
 337 
 338     while(@form) {
 339         my $key = shift @form;
 340         my $value = escape(shift @form);
 341         $postdata .= '&' if $postdata;
 342         $postdata .= $key . '=' . $value;
 343     }
 344 
 345     eval {
 346 
 347         (my $host, my $page) = parse_url($url);
 348         my $hostaddr = inet_aton($host) or die "couldn't look up host:
     $host - giving up on url $url\n";
 349 
 350         # my $sh = IO::Socket::INET->new(
 351         #     PeerAddr  => $host,
 352         #     PeerPort  => $port,
 353         #     Proto     => 'tcp',
 354         # ) or die $!;
 355 
 356         socket(my $sh, PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, getprotobyname('tcp')) or
     die $!;
 357     
 358         setsockopt($sh, SOL_SOCKET, SO_SNDTIMEO, pack 'LL', 15, 0 ) or
     die $!;
 359         setsockopt($sh, SOL_SOCKET, SO_RCVTIMEO, pack 'LL', 15, 0 ) or
     die $!;
 360       
 361         connect($sh, sockaddr_in($port, $hostaddr)) or
 362             die "connect failed: $! host: $host page: $page url: $url\n";
 363 
 364         push @headers, "Cookie: $cookies" if $cookies;
 365         push @headers, "Content-Length: " . length $postdata if length
     $postdata;
 366         push @headers, "Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded"
     if length $postdata;
 367 
 368         my $getstr = join('', map "$_\015\012",
 369             (length $postdata ? "POST $page HTTP/1.0" : "GET $page
     HTTP/1.0"),
 370             "User-Agent: $ua",
 371             "Host: $host",
 372             # "Referer: $url",  # should be sent as an argument now
 373             "Accept: image/gif; image/jpeg; text/html; text/plain; */*",
 374             "Connection: close",
 375             "Accept-Language: en",
 376             @headers,
 377             # XXX Content-type: multipart/form-data; boundary="abcdefg" #
     used for file uploads
 378         );
 379         $getstr .= "\015\012";
 380         $getstr .= $postdata if length $postdata;
 381         $debug > 0 and print "debug: getstr:\n$getstr";
 382         $sh->print($getstr) or die "print failed: $! host: $host page:
     $page url: $url\n";
 383 
 384         $sh->flush();
 385 
 386         read $sh, $output, 4096, length $output while not eof $sh; 
 387 
 388         close $sh;
 389     
 390     };
 391 
 392     if($@) {
 393         $debug > 0 and print "debug: get_page failed: $@\n";
 394         return undef;
 395     } else {
 396         $debug > 0 and print "debug: get_page successful: ", length
     $output, " bytes\n";
 397         return parse_headers($output);
 398     }
 399 
 400 }
 401 
 402 1;
 403 
 404 ---- parse_html() ----
 405     
 406 Please excuse my HTML parsing code.  It's sooooo 2002.  Let this be a
     lesson 
 407 to you -- don't try to parse HTML with regex!  
 408 
 409     sub parse_html {
 410       my $file = shift;
 411       my $callback = shift; $callback ||= sub { return 0; };
 412       my $callerpackage = shift;
 413     
 414       # if $callback->($accessor, %namevaluepairs) returns true, we use
     that return value in
 415       # place of the text that triggered the callback, allowing the
     callback to filter the HTML.
 416     
 417       my $name;
 418       my $text;
 419       my $state;     # 0-outside of tag; 1-inside of tag; 2-expecting
     name of new section
 420       my %keyvals;
 421       my $highwater; # where in the text the last tag started
 422     
 423       my $accessor = sub { ... };
 424     
 425       eval { while(1) {
 426     
 427         if($file =~ m{\G(<!--.*?-->)}sgc) {
 428           $text .= $1;
 429           print "debug: comment\n" if($debug);
 430           my $x = $callback->($accessor, tag=>'comment', text=>$1);
     if(defined $x) {
 431             $text .= $x;
 432           } else {
 433             $text .= $1;
 434           }
 435     
 436         } elsif($file =~ m{\G<([a-z0-9]+)}isgc) {
 437           # start of tag
 438           print "debug: tag-start\n" if($debug);
 439           $highwater = length($text);
 440           %keyvals = (tag => lc($1));
 441           $state=1;
 442           if(lc($1) eq 'div') {
 443             $state=2;
 444           } 
 445           $text .= "<" . cc($1);
 446     
 447         } elsif($file =~ m{\G<(/[a-z0-9]*)>}isgc) {
 448           # end tag
 449           $keyvals{'tag'} = lc($1);
 450           my $x = $callback->($accessor, %keyvals); if(defined $x) {
 451             $text .= $x;
 452           } else {
 453             $text .= "<".cc($1).">";
 454           }
 455           %keyvals=();
 456           print "debug: end-tag\n" if($debug);
 457     
 458         } elsif($file =~ m{\G(\s+)}sgc) {
 459           # whitespace, in or outside of tags
 460           if($state == 0) {
 461             my $x = $callback->($accessor, tag=>'lit', text=>$1);
     if(defined $x) {
 462               $text .= $x;
 463             } else {
 464               $text .= $1;
 465             }
 466           } else {
 467             $text .= $1;
 468           }
 469           print "debug: whitespace\n" if($debug);
 470     
 471         } elsif(($state == 1 || $state == 2) and
 472                 ($file =~ m{\G([a-z0-9_-]+)\s*=\s*(['"])(.*?)\2}isgc or
 473                  $file =~ m{\G([a-z0-9_-]+)\s*=\s*()([^ >]*)}isgc)) {
 474           # name=value pair, where value may or may not be quoted
 475           $keyvals{lc($1)} = $3;
 476           $text .= cc($1) . qq{="$3"}; # XXX need to preserve whitespace
 477           print "debug: name-value pair\n" if($debug);
 478     
 479         } elsif(($state == 1 || $state == 2) and
 480                 ($file =~ m{\G([a-z0-9_-]+)}isgc)) {
 481           # name without a =value attached. if above doesnt match this is
     the fallthrough.
 482           $keyvals{lc($1)} = 1;
 483           $text .= cc($1); # correct case if needed
 484           print "debug: name-value pair without a value\n" if($debug);
 485     
 486         } elsif($file =~ m{\G>}sgc) {
 487           # end of tag
 488           $state=0;
 489           my $x = $callback->($accessor, %keyvals); if(defined $x) {
 490             # overwrite the output with callback's return, starting from
     the beginning of the tag
 491             # $text may have changed (or been deleted) since $highwater
     was recorded
 492             substr($text, $highwater) = $x if($highwater && length($text)
     > $highwater);
 493           } else {
 494             $text .= '>';
 495           }
 496           print "debug: tag-end\n" if($debug);
 497     
 498         } elsif($file =~ m{\G([^<]+)}sgc and $state != 1) {
 499           # between tag literal data
 500           # $text .= $1 unless($state == 2);
 501           my $x = $callback->($accessor, tag=>'lit', text=>$1);
     if(defined $x) {
 502             $text .= $x;
 503           } else {
 504             $text .= $1;
 505           }
 506           print "debug: lit data\n" if($debug);
 507     
 508         } elsif($file =~ m{\G<!([^>]+)}sgc and $state != 1) {
 509           # DTD 
 510           print "debug: dtd\n" if($debug);
 511           $highwater = length($text);
 512           $text .= '<!' . cc($1);
 513           %keyvals = (tag => lc($1));
 514           $state=1;
 515     
 516         } elsif($file =~ m{($macro)}sgc) {  # 5.004 has issues with this
 517           # an escape of whatever format we're using for escapes
 518           print "debug: template escape\n" if($debug);
 519           # XXX if this appears in a tag, no mention will be passed to
     handler,
 520           # which may rewrite the tag wtihout it
 521           $text .= $1;
 522     
 523         } else {
 524           # this should only ever happen on end-of-string, or we have a
     logic error
 525           (my $foo) = $file =~ m{\G(.*)}sgc;
 526           print "stopped at: -->$foo\n" if($debug);
 527           if($foo) {
 528             # this is an error condition
 529             $callback->($accessor, tag=>'stopped', text=>$foo) 
 530           }
 531           return $text;
 532         }
 533       } };
 534       # shouldnt reach this point
 535       print $@ if($debug && $@);
 536       return $text;
 537     }

From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Fri Jul  1 13:02:05 2005
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:02:05 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting yesterday (June 30) wrapup
In-Reply-To: <20050701195533.GB3792@illogics.org>
References: <20050701173532.GC12424@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050701195533.GB3792@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <27ae8c3b0d42e9e192ed35987c5ad5cc@highwire.stanford.edu>

I may have said something, but it was too quiet for anyone but Bob to  
hear.

We do all our HTML parsing using HTML::Parser and some wrapping  
objects. Since we need to pick out particular elements of meta-data  
which may be tagged several different ways, we found that using an  
event model was easier to work with.

Also, if you're doing large-scale spidering, another hint is to make  
one process that just goes and grabs the pages and a separate one to  
parse them and deal with their contents. That way you keep the scripts  
smaller and more focused on the individual jobs -- at the price of  
extra disk space, of course. :-) For small scale stuff like Scott's  
example, it's easy to leave the two together.

-- Mike

On Jul 1, 2005, at 12:55 PM, Scott Walters wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Thanks for coming, and thanks for listening to me talk. As usual, I  
> talked
> for longer than I meant to. Whoops. Nello's was unusually busy. We'll
> probably do Nello's again, but not for a while, and not for code
> presentations... regardless, I think having food at the meetings made
> things a lot easier (we're all busy people) so I think I'll see about
> ordering out for pizza for our regular meetings, whereever they wind  
> up.
>
> Good to meet all of the new people. I'm sorry I didn't a chance to  
> chat with
> you guys more and I hope you'll be back. It's hard to get to know  
> people
> in two hours with so much chaos.
>
> I completely forgot to give the door prize, CGI Programming with Perl,  
> to
> Brock to give away. D'oh! Next meeting, we'll just have to have two  
> door prizes.
> Sorry to everyone who only came because of the door prize. Next time,  
> remind
> me, or Brock, or someone.
>
> Er, ehm, without further ado, here's yafro.pl.
>
> Again, you shouldn't use http.pm or TransientBaby -- they're for  
> educational
> purposes only. If you actually do any Web scraping, use HTML::Parser,
> HTML::TableExtractor, or something sane. Which means you'll have
> to modify this to use another HTML parser. That shouldn't be hard to
> do if you use an event based one.
>
> I was expecting people to chime in and comment on how *they* scraped
> Web content but instead Michael just gave a lot of examples of how he
> *blocks* robots. Heh, heh, heh.
>
> For the benefit of people not at the meeting, here are a few comments  
> on
> the code: would have been easier to just extract all images with URLs
> matching a certain pattern, and the *get_page =  
> http::generate_get_page;
> this is odd and would have been better done with the Exporter (module).
>
> Okay. Talk to ya'll later.
> -scott
>
> On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>>
>> We had a lovely meeting yesterday, with 10 people enjoying dinner and
>> perl-talk at Nello's Pizza. In addition to random perl-related
>> conversation, Mike Friedman spoke of HighWire Press [1] and their use  
>> of
>> Perl, and Scott Walters told us about how he does web-scraping (and he
>> will post code soon we hope :) ).
>>
>> We'll have the website up soon enough. In the meantime keep an eye out
>> here for the next meeting topic/time/location, which I will have  
>> picked
>> out within the next two weeks. Please send topic requests and
>> volunteership here to the list. I like the idea of doing two talks  
>> like
>> we did this time so that we can cover a potentially wider range of
>> interest and experience.
>>
>> Have a good (long) weekend!
>> --Brock
>>
>>   [1] http://highwire.stanford.edu/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> <yafro.pl><webscraping_phoenix_pm.txt>_________________________________ 
> ______________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------


From scott at illogics.org  Fri Jul  1 22:38:52 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 22:38:52 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Chip Salzenberg raided
In-Reply-To: <20050701173532.GC12424@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050701173532.GC12424@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050702053852.GE3792@illogics.org>

Yikes. (For those of you who don't read Slashdot...) Chip went to squeal on
his employer, who was harvesting data using comprimised machines and open
proxies, and they called the cops, accused him of misapproprating trade
secrets (apparently crimes are now protectable as trade secrets), and they
came to his house that very afternoon and took all of his stuff. In an
ironic twist, his former employer got images of all of his hard drives,
thus misappropriating *his* intellectual property.

Slashdot: Chip Salzenberg writes "In April of this year, Health Market Science of King of Prussia, PA, told police that they feared I was misappropriating trade secrets. That very afternoon, police raided my house with a search warrant to seize every computer in the house, paper files, CDs, and DVDs... even my wireless router and cable modem!" Chip was the pumpking for perl's 5.004 release. Keep reading for his description of his current legal troubles, and for a shortcut into what he says prompted his former company's actions, read his letter warning about abuse of open proxies."

http://geeksunite.net/ (Chip's site, soliciting donations for the legal fund)

-scott


From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Mon Jul 11 12:39:25 2005
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:39:25 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] newbie
In-Reply-To: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D227686CC43@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
References: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D227686CC43@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
Message-ID: <db7b1f429783b2108f46aa12fedced3a@highwire.stanford.edu>

Uh... no clue on the site. It'll probably be up when Scott has a few 
free hours.

As for support, there is probably someone you could talk to, but the 
only person I know who has used any of the Win32 GUI type modules is 
Doug, who is now incommunicado. You should ask the whole list. 
*Someone* must have used them. (I'm a mac guy, myself, and all my perl 
is cmdline or CGI.)

In fact, let's just throw this out to the list right now. Anyone used 
Win32 stuff and want to help out a newbie?

Good luck!
-- Mike

On Jul 11, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote:

> Do we have an estimate on when the site is going to be back on-line?  
> Also when is the next meeting going to be?  Also is there someone I 
> can could call and talk to for a few minutes?  I have a couple basic 
> questions.  I have installed a couple mods with ppm, but as of yet I 
> have been unable to use any of them properly.  Currently I'm trying to 
> work with Win32::GuiTest, also trying to figure out how I to use tk in 
> order to provide GUIs for a couple of apps I need to create for other 
> users.
>
>
> Jonathan Smith
> Encore Lex Solutio
> www.lexsolutio.com
> 1-888-389-1658
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Friedman [mailto:friedman at highwire.stanford.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:55 PM
> To: Jonathan K. Smith
> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] newbie
>
> There's one tonight!
>
> The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in 
> Scottsdale.
> (That's Shea & 101, more or less. Use the Google, young Skywalker.)
>
> The website is having some "issues" right now, but it should be up 
> again soon.
> Why don't you come join us tonight, meet the crowd, and have some 
> pizza?
>
> -- Mike
> (since I don't know how often Scott or Brock check mail)
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote:
>
>> Hello, just getting started with perl and was wondering if phoenix.pm
>> had meetings and if so when and where they are located.? Also I can't
>> seem to log onto the site.
>> ?
>> ?
>> Jonathan Smith
>> Encore Lex Solutio
>> www.lexsolutio.com
>> 1-888-389-1658
>> ?_______________________________________________
>> Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
> Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
> FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------


From jksmith at lexsolutio.com  Mon Jul 11 12:49:35 2005
From: jksmith at lexsolutio.com (Jonathan K. Smith)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:49:35 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] newbie
Message-ID: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D227686CC5E@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>

 
Specifically I'm having problems trying to get GuiTest to find the proper window.  In fact I have been unable to get FindWindow to return any value.  Additionally I the Win32::GuiTest::SendKeys is hanging I think, cause it doesn't execute that step until after I manually close the application I am trying to sendkeys to.  Here is my test script as it stands now.  It opens the application correctly, but then just hangs.  @window remains empty and ^p is send to STDOUT.  The error says that FindWindowLike requires an additional parameter, but all examples I've seen are in the format that I've used.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.


#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use Win32::GuiTest qw(:ALL);
$Win32::GuiTest::debug = 1;
chdir "Originals";
my @ptxFile = glob(<*>);
system ("C:\\Windows\\etrnview.exe @ptxFile");
my @window = FindWindowLike (0,"^BEACH,BOBBY");
print @window;
Win32::GuiTest::SendKeys("^p");

print "\n\nEnter <Return> to continue:";
<>


Jonathan Smith
Encore Lex Solutio
www.lexsolutio.com
1-888-389-1658

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Friedman [mailto:friedman at highwire.stanford.edu] 
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:39 PM
To: Phoenix.pm; Jonathan K. Smith
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] newbie

Uh... no clue on the site. It'll probably be up when Scott has a few free hours.

As for support, there is probably someone you could talk to, but the only person I know who has used any of the Win32 GUI type modules is Doug, who is now incommunicado. You should ask the whole list. 
*Someone* must have used them. (I'm a mac guy, myself, and all my perl is cmdline or CGI.)

In fact, let's just throw this out to the list right now. Anyone used
Win32 stuff and want to help out a newbie?

Good luck!
-- Mike

On Jul 11, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote:

> Do we have an estimate on when the site is going to be back on-line?  
> Also when is the next meeting going to be?  Also is there someone I 
> can could call and talk to for a few minutes?  I have a couple basic 
> questions.  I have installed a couple mods with ppm, but as of yet I 
> have been unable to use any of them properly.  Currently I'm trying to 
> work with Win32::GuiTest, also trying to figure out how I to use tk in 
> order to provide GUIs for a couple of apps I need to create for other 
> users.
>
>
> Jonathan Smith
> Encore Lex Solutio
> www.lexsolutio.com
> 1-888-389-1658
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Friedman [mailto:friedman at highwire.stanford.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:55 PM
> To: Jonathan K. Smith
> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] newbie
>
> There's one tonight!
>
> The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in 
> Scottsdale.
> (That's Shea & 101, more or less. Use the Google, young Skywalker.)
>
> The website is having some "issues" right now, but it should be up 
> again soon.
> Why don't you come join us tonight, meet the crowd, and have some 
> pizza?
>
> -- Mike
> (since I don't know how often Scott or Brock check mail)
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote:
>
>> Hello, just getting started with perl and was wondering if phoenix.pm 
>> had meetings and if so when and where they are located.? Also I can't 
>> seem to log onto the site.
>> ?
>> ?
>> Jonathan Smith
>> Encore Lex Solutio
>> www.lexsolutio.com
>> 1-888-389-1658
>> ?_______________________________________________
>> Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
> Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
> FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From cakrum at cox.net  Wed Jul 13 08:14:00 2005
From: cakrum at cox.net (Chris Krum)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:14:00 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] newbie
In-Reply-To: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D227686CC5E@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
References: <A42FA84C82A2184A89BECD3E6F9D227686CC5E@lexexchange01.LEX_PHOENIX>
Message-ID: <eee98d0d466392ea5ded18ba4afd4aa2@cox.net>

I've done some Tk stuff on Windoze so I'd be happy to help with that. 
We switched to Mac at home so I'm playing with WxPerl for my GUI's now. 
You might look into GUI Loft for your Win32 work. I'm using 
X11::GUITest at work but I don't know how that compares with 
Win32::GUITest.


On Jul 11, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote:

>
> Specifically I'm having problems trying to get GuiTest to find the 
> proper window.  In fact I have been unable to get FindWindow to return 
> any value.  Additionally I the Win32::GuiTest::SendKeys is hanging I 
> think, cause it doesn't execute that step until after I manually close 
> the application I am trying to sendkeys to.  Here is my test script as 
> it stands now.  It opens the application correctly, but then just 
> hangs.  @window remains empty and ^p is send to STDOUT.  The error 
> says that FindWindowLike requires an additional parameter, but all 
> examples I've seen are in the format that I've used.  Any help would 
> be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl -w
>
> use Win32::GuiTest qw(:ALL);
> $Win32::GuiTest::debug = 1;
> chdir "Originals";
> my @ptxFile = glob(<*>);
> system ("C:\\Windows\\etrnview.exe @ptxFile");
> my @window = FindWindowLike (0,"^BEACH,BOBBY");
> print @window;
> Win32::GuiTest::SendKeys("^p");
>
> print "\n\nEnter <Return> to continue:";
> <>
>
>
> Jonathan Smith
> Encore Lex Solutio
> www.lexsolutio.com
> 1-888-389-1658
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Friedman [mailto:friedman at highwire.stanford.edu]
> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:39 PM
> To: Phoenix.pm; Jonathan K. Smith
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] newbie
>
> Uh... no clue on the site. It'll probably be up when Scott has a few 
> free hours.
>
> As for support, there is probably someone you could talk to, but the 
> only person I know who has used any of the Win32 GUI type modules is 
> Doug, who is now incommunicado. You should ask the whole list.
> *Someone* must have used them. (I'm a mac guy, myself, and all my perl 
> is cmdline or CGI.)
>
> In fact, let's just throw this out to the list right now. Anyone used
> Win32 stuff and want to help out a newbie?
>
> Good luck!
> -- Mike
>
> On Jul 11, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote:
>
>> Do we have an estimate on when the site is going to be back on-line?
>> Also when is the next meeting going to be?  Also is there someone I
>> can could call and talk to for a few minutes?  I have a couple basic
>> questions.  I have installed a couple mods with ppm, but as of yet I
>> have been unable to use any of them properly.  Currently I'm trying to
>> work with Win32::GuiTest, also trying to figure out how I to use tk in
>> order to provide GUIs for a couple of apps I need to create for other
>> users.
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Smith
>> Encore Lex Solutio
>> www.lexsolutio.com
>> 1-888-389-1658
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Friedman [mailto:friedman at highwire.stanford.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:55 PM
>> To: Jonathan K. Smith
>> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] newbie
>>
>> There's one tonight!
>>
>> The meeting is Thursday, June 30 @ 7:00pm at Nello's Pizza in
>> Scottsdale.
>> (That's Shea & 101, more or less. Use the Google, young Skywalker.)
>>
>> The website is having some "issues" right now, but it should be up
>> again soon.
>> Why don't you come join us tonight, meet the crowd, and have some
>> pizza?
>>
>> -- Mike
>> (since I don't know how often Scott or Brock check mail)
>>
>>
>> On Jun 30, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Jonathan K. Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, just getting started with perl and was wondering if phoenix.pm
>>> had meetings and if so when and where they are located.? Also I can't
>>> seem to log onto the site.
>>> ?
>>> ?
>>> Jonathan Smith
>>> Encore Lex Solutio
>>> www.lexsolutio.com
>>> 1-888-389-1658
>>> ?_______________________________________________
>>> Phoenix-pm mailing list
>>> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
>> Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
>> FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
> Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
> FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>


From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Wed Jul 13 16:09:00 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (andypm@exiledplanet.org)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:09:00 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
Message-ID: <10358644.1121296186378.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com>

O'Reilly is about to publish a new book by Damian Conway, _Perl Best Practices_.  There is a sample chapter available on O'Reilly's site:

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlbp/

I've read most of the sample chapter (which addresses subroutines) and I thought it was an excellent style guide for making Perl code clearer and more useful.  If the rest of the book is like the sample chapter, it could be an excellent resource for programmers writing complex apps in Perl, especially those that haven't written complex Perl before.

I'm interested in what others think of this book and the new push by some to define more "standard approaches" to Perl.  Given Perl's reputation in some circles as "line noise," I think this effort could make Perl more accessible, and thus more valuable, to more people.  What does everyone else think?

--aj


From scott at illogics.org  Thu Jul 14 00:34:14 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:34:14 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
In-Reply-To: <10358644.1121296186378.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com>
References: <10358644.1121296186378.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com>
Message-ID: <20050714073414.GH5312@illogics.org>

Hi Andrew,

I'll have to poke at this.  I'm still slogging through _Higher-Order Perl_.
Then I have a pile of things to review for Apress.

I thought _Effective Perl Programming_ was a great book and _Perl Best Practices_,
from it's description, sounds similar. _Effected Perl Programming_ showed how to
use Perlism like slices, but was primarily concerned with *when* such things
improved the clarity of a program.  

But that's all part of a larger problem you only hinted at.  To answer your
real question:  Perl is doomed.

Here's a choice quote from _Perl Medic_:  I wrote this book because I kept 
finding myself telling my students, "I'm going to teach you how to program Perl
well, but I'd have to teach you a lot more before you could take over a program
that wasn't written well, and you wouldn't appreciate taking that much time 
away from learing how to write good programs of your own." So I've written a 
book to fill that need. 

The "if you count occurances of the word 'Perl' in job listings, it's right
behind 'Java'" people fail to notice that Perl is almost always listed as a 
secondary skill (a desirement, if you will) and almost never as a primary skill.  
Companies are looking for people that can manage the Perl that's floating
around, but, by and large, there's moving away from it for new projects.  
Conversely, if you see Python as a job requirement, it's almost always a
primary skill, and you can be sure they're actually using it for new work.

Perl's reputation killed it.  Perl 6 might be fantastic, and it'll have good 
company with language such as OCaml, Haskell, Lisp, and Scheme -- powerful 
languages that are never spec'd for in projects.  

I have a theory, formalized at http://use.perl.org/~scrottie/journal/24103,
called "Basic Logo Pascal VB Perl - doomed newbie languages", where I
pontificate that languages generally learned as a first language by
legions of programming novices, are doomed.  It's easier for a novice
to blame the language than himself for the bile he pumped out in his
early years.  It's easier to start from scratch with another language --
such as one advertising it's for people who are interested in writing
clean code -- than it is to change how you see a language.  Logo is
actually a Lisp dialect.  I didn't know that up until recently.  Then
I was upset I started with AtariBASIC when Logo was available on ROM
for the machine.  My cool factor would be much higher.  But regardless,
classrooms full of kids learned to program, starting with a Lisp
dialect, and then abandoned it in favor of things like *C* (C is great
for systems programming, kernels, database engines, and microcontrollers,
but it's a handicap when trying to build an application of any sort).
And you see this quite often.  People switch to markedly inferior languages
as they turn over their leaf and disassociate themselves with their 
first language.  Of these example languages popular with novices, 
Pascal, which has a wretched type checking system, got off relatively
unscathed for at least preaching structured code and readability,
whereas Basic, Perl, VB, and Logo had an attitude of "you're learning,
don't worry about style, just try to make it work". 

The honeymoon is over.  Ten years ago, PHBs didn't pretend to understand
technology well enough to constrain projects to language they read
about in trade rags.  Now they do (they do pretend to, that is).  If it
were just programmers and technical people, Python and Perl could war it
out till the cows came home and both would subsist.  But the decision
isn't being made among technical people who consider technical merits
and tolerate divercity and difference of opinion, style, priority,
and philosophy.  The PHBs see the diversity as a conflict, or an argument,
and they're interested in solving it.  To them, the primary question
seems to be whether Microsoft is *the* solution or Sun is *the* solution.

With my frequent rants about employability as a Perl programmer, I'm 
hinting at all of this -- PHBs consider all programmers to be "about the
same", so they'll pick the one who seems more like a "team player" or
looks less likely to give them grief.  The attitude extends to languages.
Java (which I don't hate, and certainly has it's place and virtues) is
almost always programmed in teams.  Twelve programmers will work 
together, each banging out their own API or extending someone eleses API,
to accomplish something I've done single handedly in Perl, in less time,
with better code.  But if you take a PHB and try to convince them that
there's such a thing as a programming language that's twice as 
effective as another one, you'll fail.  It's all just "vender support",
and "availability of talent", and "industry standards" -- it's never
productivity, efficiency, or technology.  Perl has virtues, but it has
no sought-after virtues.

Interestingly, programmers seem to be adopting this attitude, probably just by
unthinking default.  They expect everything to be about equal, regardless.
These are the people who don't take time to learn Perl well, and aren't
interested in ever getting around to advance Perl concepts.  They don't
progress much on their own, they slog through their days, and you can't
convince them that if they learned a few tricks, their life would be easier and
they'd be more productive.  These are the people who will drop Perl without a
second thought when that COBOL or Java job opens up.

So, things like _Perl Best Practices_ are too late.  Even _Effective Perl 
Programming_ was too late.  They're just preaching to the choir because 
everyone has already taken their path of writing bad Perl or writing good Perl.
If Perl programmers cared about "standard approaches", they'd read things like
Refactoring and Design Patterns.  Object Oriented Design Heuristics is 
exceptional and less trendy and obnoxious.  They don't have to swallow this
stuff wholesale, but if they cared about programming, they'd care about what
the industry at large is up to.  But by and large, Perl programmers act like
your average PHP programmer -- who acts like none of the advancements we've
seen in the last 30 years exist (ask a PHP programmer who Tony Hoare is -- I
dare you).  You can't convince people to care, but when they start to care (on
their own), you can't stop them from switching languages.  Perhaps they're
afraid of what else they've been missing, living in isolation, ignorant of the
world, and the last 30 years, and what professionals are doing at work, and...  

It may have been Perl's reputation that killed it, but it's the novices who
learned Perl and then switched without ever having written a passable line of
Perl that gave it it's reputation.  

-scott

On  0, andypm at exiledplanet.org wrote:
> O'Reilly is about to publish a new book by Damian Conway, _Perl Best Practices_.  There is a sample chapter available on O'Reilly's site:
> 
> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlbp/
> 
> I've read most of the sample chapter (which addresses subroutines) and I thought it was an excellent style guide for making Perl code clearer and more useful.  If the rest of the book is like the sample chapter, it could be an excellent resource for programmers writing complex apps in Perl, especially those that haven't written complex Perl before.
> 
> I'm interested in what others think of this book and the new push by some to define more "standard approaches" to Perl.  Given Perl's reputation in some circles as "line noise," I think this effort could make Perl more accessible, and thus more valuable, to more people.  What does everyone else think?
> 
> --aj
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Thu Jul 14 09:48:45 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:48:45 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
In-Reply-To: <20050714073414.GH5312@illogics.org>
References: <10358644.1121296186378.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com>
	<20050714073414.GH5312@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050714164845.GS20649@thelackthereof.org>

On 2005.07.14.00.34, Scott Walters wrote:
| But that's all part of a larger problem you only hinted at.  To answer your
| real question:  Perl is doomed.
| ...
| Perl's reputation killed it.  Perl 6 might be fantastic, and it'll have good 
| company with language such as OCaml, Haskell, Lisp, and Scheme -- powerful 
| languages that are never spec'd for in projects.  

"Perl is doomed" to what, exactly? It seems that Perl is not currently
being spec'd for the same tasks as java or C# or similar -- but was it
ever mandated by the boss for these uses? So doomed to live out its
current existence, perhaps.

For myself I've been noticing more and more activity in these powerful
yet to-the-side languages you've mentioned. It may be a Connectivity
Perception Issue (a CPI, as I like to call it) in which it is merely the
connectivity of communities which has increased and not the actual
interest in the technologies themselves... But from my vantage point
these things are all on the rise, especially late-bound "scripting"
languages such as Perl, Python, and Ruby.

When I'm in the bookstore and I notice another person looking at the
programming books I always ask them "What sort of programming do you
do". In the past I've mostly gotten "Java for work, but I'm interested
in Pyton" or "C++". But the other day I was in there and there was a guy
I posed the question to and he said "I'm thinking of picking up Ruby".
"Learning Ruby On Rails, then, eh?" "yeah."

At the same time, you're out there getting and filling contracts. You
are more in tune with what people want now compared to what people
wanted 5 years ago, whereas I do not. But I just left a job where they
built their whole system in Perl and now I'm in a spot where we will
change from PHP to Perl shortly, and Perl will be replacing an existing
jsp-based system.

One thing you mentioned is how people learn these easy scripting
languages first, then move on to other languages and blame all their
early nasty code on the original language. This makes a lot of sense,
really. But we're also getting waves of people who were taught Java as
their first language (thats what NAU teaches, ew) and are now like "God
that is some nasty Java code. But this OCaml/Haskell/Perl6 stuff is damn
clean!" So maybe even from that angle things balance out. Yin and Yang
and all that.

But I'm an optimist, so I may be biased towards Happyness :)
--Brock


From bwmetz at att.com  Thu Jul 14 10:04:32 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:04:32 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670F0A6C@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

I'm just curious how Scott really feels about it and want to say "Hey,
what's wrong with Pascal?" ;-)

	Joking aside, I choose to be an optimist like Brock.  If I
don't, then I'm one of those that will have to admit I've wasted the
last few years of my life learning Perl instead of Java or C#.  I
remember having Java pushed on is in school when it was relatively new.
You're right, it has it place just not for me.  Didn't like it then,
don't like it now...not due to complexity, but rather execution
speed...oh, and I guess the API complexity has a bit to do with it.  
	As to companies choosing one or the other, I know my company is
deeply in bed with Perl and some PHP.  Our real development group uses
Java and Ruby but the groups that really get practical things done are
the ones using Perl and PHP, not to mention we charge a heck of a lot
less to the business units wanting something.  I also throw out that
primary Perl jobs are somewhat alive and well based on the daily adds I
see on the jobs at perl.org list.  Of course, I don't belong to anything
similar for the other languages so who knows.

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Brock
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:49 AM
To: Scott Walters
Cc: Phoenix.pm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices


On 2005.07.14.00.34, Scott Walters wrote:
| But that's all part of a larger problem you only hinted at.  To answer
your
| real question:  Perl is doomed.
| ...
| Perl's reputation killed it.  Perl 6 might be fantastic, and it'll
have good 
| company with language such as OCaml, Haskell, Lisp, and Scheme --
powerful 
| languages that are never spec'd for in projects.  

"Perl is doomed" to what, exactly? It seems that Perl is not currently
being spec'd for the same tasks as java or C# or similar -- but was it
ever mandated by the boss for these uses? So doomed to live out its
current existence, perhaps.

For myself I've been noticing more and more activity in these powerful
yet to-the-side languages you've mentioned. It may be a Connectivity
Perception Issue (a CPI, as I like to call it) in which it is merely the
connectivity of communities which has increased and not the actual
interest in the technologies themselves... But from my vantage point
these things are all on the rise, especially late-bound "scripting"
languages such as Perl, Python, and Ruby.

When I'm in the bookstore and I notice another person looking at the
programming books I always ask them "What sort of programming do you
do". In the past I've mostly gotten "Java for work, but I'm interested
in Pyton" or "C++". But the other day I was in there and there was a guy
I posed the question to and he said "I'm thinking of picking up Ruby".
"Learning Ruby On Rails, then, eh?" "yeah."

At the same time, you're out there getting and filling contracts. You
are more in tune with what people want now compared to what people
wanted 5 years ago, whereas I do not. But I just left a job where they
built their whole system in Perl and now I'm in a spot where we will
change from PHP to Perl shortly, and Perl will be replacing an existing
jsp-based system.

One thing you mentioned is how people learn these easy scripting
languages first, then move on to other languages and blame all their
early nasty code on the original language. This makes a lot of sense,
really. But we're also getting waves of people who were taught Java as
their first language (thats what NAU teaches, ew) and are now like "God
that is some nasty Java code. But this OCaml/Haskell/Perl6 stuff is damn
clean!" So maybe even from that angle things balance out. Yin and Yang
and all that.

But I'm an optimist, so I may be biased towards Happyness :)
--Brock

_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Thu Jul 14 10:37:31 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:37:31 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
In-Reply-To: <20050714164845.GS20649@thelackthereof.org>
References: <10358644.1121296186378.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com>
	<20050714073414.GH5312@illogics.org>
	<20050714164845.GS20649@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050714173731.GJ5312@illogics.org>

> "Perl is doomed" to what, exactly? 

The same obscurity as "academic" languages such as Scheme and OCaml --
other languages far more powerful and expressive then you'd guess
from how often they're used or hired for.

> But we're also getting waves of people who were taught Java as
> their first language (thats what NAU teaches, ew) and are now like "God
> that is some nasty Java code. But this OCaml/Haskell/Perl6 stuff is damn
> clean!"

Now that's a good point.  And I've already stumbled across some horrid Java
in the wild.  

By the way, a past thread on this list debated Perl certification (and
not those brainbench quizes, either).  An argument from one side went
something like... in order to charge money for their trade, electricians,
general contractors, nurses, and practicioners several other skilled trades
all require a license, and this keeps the complete novices out of
professional positions where they can do harm.  

> But I'm an optimist, so I may be biased towards Happyness :)

Quite the opposite here >=)

-scott

> --Brock
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Thu Jul 14 10:39:03 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:39:03 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670F0AE4@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

	Ah, but as I've found out, management isn't up to speed on
programming languages like you pointed out...thus my FREE BrainBench
Perl cert looks very good on those pesky end of year reviews compared to
colleagues without one.  That said, I think the BrainBench exam on Perl,
if viewed as the CCNA level cert for Perl, would be quite hard for a
novice to pass.  I'm just amused that they charge for their tests when
anyone can use Google to find a free exam voucher, if they try hard
enough.  Then BrainBench tends to offer you other tests for free each
month after you sign-up and pass the first one.

B

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Scott Walters
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:38 AM
To: Brock
Cc: Phoenix.pm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices


> "Perl is doomed" to what, exactly? 

The same obscurity as "academic" languages such as Scheme and OCaml --
other languages far more powerful and expressive then you'd guess
from how often they're used or hired for.

> But we're also getting waves of people who were taught Java as
> their first language (thats what NAU teaches, ew) and are now like
"God
> that is some nasty Java code. But this OCaml/Haskell/Perl6 stuff is
damn
> clean!"

Now that's a good point.  And I've already stumbled across some horrid
Java
in the wild.  

By the way, a past thread on this list debated Perl certification (and
not those brainbench quizes, either).  An argument from one side went
something like... in order to charge money for their trade,
electricians,
general contractors, nurses, and practicioners several other skilled
trades
all require a license, and this keeps the complete novices out of
professional positions where they can do harm.  

> But I'm an optimist, so I may be biased towards Happyness :)

Quite the opposite here >=)

-scott

> --Brock
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Thu Jul 14 10:49:04 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:49:04 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670F0AE4@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733670F0AE4@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20050714174904.GL5312@illogics.org>

Oh, no, I didn't mean to suggest they (bosses) *are* up to speed -- only that
they think they are, hence they meddle in technical affairs that don't concern
them, such as which languages their engineers are using.

-scott

On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:
> 	Ah, but as I've found out, management isn't up to speed on
> programming languages like you pointed out...thus my FREE BrainBench
> Perl cert looks very good on those pesky end of year reviews compared to
> colleagues without one.  That said, I think the BrainBench exam on Perl,
> if viewed as the CCNA level cert for Perl, would be quite hard for a
> novice to pass.  I'm just amused that they charge for their tests when
> anyone can use Google to find a free exam voucher, if they try hard
> enough.  Then BrainBench tends to offer you other tests for free each
> month after you sign-up and pass the first one.
> 
> B
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
> Behalf Of Scott Walters
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 10:38 AM
> To: Brock
> Cc: Phoenix.pm Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Best Practices
> 
> 
> > "Perl is doomed" to what, exactly? 
> 
> The same obscurity as "academic" languages such as Scheme and OCaml --
> other languages far more powerful and expressive then you'd guess
> from how often they're used or hired for.
> 
> > But we're also getting waves of people who were taught Java as
> > their first language (thats what NAU teaches, ew) and are now like
> "God
> > that is some nasty Java code. But this OCaml/Haskell/Perl6 stuff is
> damn
> > clean!"
> 
> Now that's a good point.  And I've already stumbled across some horrid
> Java
> in the wild.  
> 
> By the way, a past thread on this list debated Perl certification (and
> not those brainbench quizes, either).  An argument from one side went
> something like... in order to charge money for their trade,
> electricians,
> general contractors, nurses, and practicioners several other skilled
> trades
> all require a license, and this keeps the complete novices out of
> professional positions where they can do harm.  
> 
> > But I'm an optimist, so I may be biased towards Happyness :)
> 
> Quite the opposite here >=)
> 
> -scott
> 
> > --Brock
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Thu Jul 14 17:13:53 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:13:53 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>


Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no projector.

--Brock


From scott at illogics.org  Fri Jul 15 00:38:37 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:38:37 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>

Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot more accessible
to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North Scottsdale
crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have laptops with
WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do view-only
mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.

-scott


On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
> Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no projector.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Fri Jul 15 11:36:26 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:36:26 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Developer/Programmer position in Tucson, AZ
In-Reply-To: <05C08B66F87E874C8B3260F65DB7034F2B952C@mail.CoreTechsInc.local>
References: <05C08B66F87E874C8B3260F65DB7034F2B952C@mail.CoreTechsInc.local>
Message-ID: <20050715183626.GS5312@illogics.org>

Hi Laura, 

Thanks for contacting me.  It's always nice to hear about jobs.  However, 
Tuscon is bit much of a drive for me, and I'm tied to Phoenix for the
time being.

I'm passing along a copy of your email to the Phoenix Perl Mongers.  I
hope that's okay.  I know it has lurkers from all over Arizona, and they
too like to hear about Perl jobs.

Thanks again!

Best regards,
-scott



On  0, Laura Dreuth <Laura at coretechsinc.com> wrote:
> 
>    Hi Scott,
>    
>    
>    Saw your resume and wondering if you would be interested in this
>    permanent position in Tucson, AZ.
>    
>    
>    Hope this is of interest and look forward to hearing from you.
>    
>    
>    Kind regards,
>    
>    Laura Dreuth
>    
>    CoreTechs, Inc.
>    
>    
>    Job Description:
>    
>    
>    Perl Programmer
>    
>    He or she will design, develop, test and deploy new components and
>    features for a our websites, and help maintain our large codebase. The
>    position is based in our Tucson, AZ, office.
>    
>    
>    The environment is a combination of Linux and Solaris systems using
>    Apache, mod_perl, and HTML::Mason with an Oracle database backend.
>    We're looking for a self-starter who can hit the ground running; an
>    ability to rapidly familiarize with a complex environment is
>    essential.
>    
>    
>    Responsibilities:
>    
>    
>    * Design, develop, test and deploy new site features and functionality
>    in accordance with established coding guidelines.
>    
>    * Develop and run customized reporting, content management, and
>    maintenance scripts
>    
>    * Troubleshoot server and site problems and maintain existing code.
>    
>    * Some off-hours support carrying a rotation pager
>    
>    
>    Qualifications:
>    
>    
>    * 3-5 years programming experience, with an emphasis on website
>    development and/or server-side applications.
>    
>    * Advanced knowledge of the Perl programming language and
>    commonly-used CPAN modules (DBI, etc).
>    
>    * Solid understanding of the fundamentals of HTTP services and
>    familiarity with the Apache webserver.
>    
>    * Some experience with some or all of: unix system administration,
>    database design, e-commerce applications, mod_perl, HTML::Mason,
>    Oracle PL/SQL.
>    
>    * Excellent problem-solving abilities
>    
>    * Good communications skills. Able to read, analyze and interpret
>    general business periodicals, professional journals, technical
>    procedures or governmental regulations. Able to write reports,
>    business correspondence and thorough documentation.
>    
>    * Ability to handle simultaneous projects and tasks, often with vague
>    or incomplete specifications.

From scott at illogics.org  Sun Jul 17 11:03:05 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:03:05 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Wal*mart and... Perl?
In-Reply-To: <20050714164845.GS20649@thelackthereof.org>
References: <10358644.1121296186378.JavaMail.teamon@b217.teamon.com>
	<20050714073414.GH5312@illogics.org>
	<20050714164845.GS20649@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050717180305.GX5312@illogics.org>

A friend of mine works at Wal*mart and reports...:

``I got an interesting error message on the Telxon (handheld terminal) today!
"Use of uninitialized value at /u/applic/rfeng/lrad/lib/smart.pm line 94" ''

Iiiinteresting...

In other news, "0 or die die die die die die die die;" is perfectly valid
syntax.

-scott


From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Mon Jul 18 22:42:40 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:42:40 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>
References: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050719054240.GB19353@thelackthereof.org>


Hello all,

For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent dictator, I
thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday July
29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center. For
the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on this
time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.

And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
again I refer you to

http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas

for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one and an
intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about all
sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module you'd
like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on it!

recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't mind):
  * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
  * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side
    execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
  * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
  * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you want to cry
  * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
    adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts
    to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
    suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
  * Intro to Perl5 objects
  * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of fun)
  * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say CGI::Application)
  * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome

So much to talk about! The floor is open.

--Brock

On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
| Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot more accessible
| to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North Scottsdale
| crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have laptops with
| WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do view-only
| mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
| 
| -scott
| 
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
| > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no projector.
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Tue Jul 19 00:37:19 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:37:19 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050719054240.GB19353@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719054240.GB19353@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050719073718.GE5312@illogics.org>

Hi Brock, everyone,

Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm only
offering the following selection from those listed below:

   * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
   * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
     adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts
     to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
     suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.

I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
beta-test that, but that's up in the air.

Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  

Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 

Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why don't
all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON but
I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.

Okay, that's enough for now. 

Regards,
-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent dictator, I
> thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday July
> 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center. For
> the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on this
> time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
> 
> And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
> again I refer you to
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas
> 
> for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
> Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one and an
> intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about all
> sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
> bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module you'd
> like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on it!
> 
> recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't mind):
>   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side
>     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
>   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
>   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you want to cry
>   * Intro to Perl5 objects
>   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of fun)
>   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say CGI::Application)
>   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> 
> So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot more accessible
> | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North Scottsdale
> | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have laptops with
> | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do view-only
> | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
> | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no projector.
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Jul 19 09:33:11 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:33:11 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B345769047336716990D@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Brock,
	You meant Thursday the 28th, right?  The 29th is on Friday.

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Brock
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:43 PM
To: Scott Walters
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal



Hello all,

For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent dictator, I
thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday July
29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center. For
the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on this
time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.

And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
again I refer you to

http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
PerlMongersIdeas

for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one and an
intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about all
sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module you'd
like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on it!

recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
mind):
  * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
  * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side
    execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
  * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
  * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you
want to cry
  * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
    adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts
    to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
    suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
  * Intro to Perl5 objects
  * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of fun)
  * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
CGI::Application)
  * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome

So much to talk about! The floor is open.

--Brock

On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
| Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot
more accessible
| to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North
Scottsdale
| crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have
laptops with
| WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do
view-only
| mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
| 
| -scott
| 
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
| > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
projector.
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Jul 19 09:43:37 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:43:37 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B345769047336716990D@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B345769047336716990D@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20050719164337.GC19353@thelackthereof.org>


Yes, Thursday the 28th.

--Brock

On 2005.07.19.11.33, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote:
| Brock,
| 	You meant Thursday the 28th, right?  The 29th is on Friday.
| 
| Bobby
| 
| -----Original Message-----
| From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
| Behalf Of Brock
| Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:43 PM
| To: Scott Walters
| Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
| Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
| 
| 
| 
| Hello all,
| 
| For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent dictator, I
| thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday July
| 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center. For
| the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on this
| time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
| 
| And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
| again I refer you to
| 
| http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
| PerlMongersIdeas
| 
| for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
| Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one and an
| intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about all
| sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
| bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module you'd
| like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on it!
| 
| recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
| mind):
|   * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
|   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side
|     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
|   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
|   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you
| want to cry
|   * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
|     adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts
|     to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
|     suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
|   * Intro to Perl5 objects
|   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of fun)
|   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
| CGI::Application)
|   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
| 
| So much to talk about! The floor is open.
| 
| --Brock
| 
| On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
| | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot
| more accessible
| | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North
| Scottsdale
| | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have
| laptops with
| | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do
| view-only
| | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
| | 
| | -scott
| | 
| | 
| | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| | > 
| | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
| | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
| projector.
| | > 
| | > --Brock
| | > 
| | > _______________________________________________
| | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| _______________________________________________
| Phoenix-pm mailing list
| Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Jul 19 15:33:17 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:33:17 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050719073718.GE5312@illogics.org>
References: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719054240.GB19353@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050719073718.GE5312@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050719223317.GF19353@thelackthereof.org>


I hear that July is a very popular time for phoenicians to vacation...
maybe thats an indicator for expected response. Hrm.

I'd love to go to OSCON (moreso than DEFCON I think) but can't 'cause
I'm switching apartments right about then :(. I like the idea of a group
trip though. What other things are coming up soon? Perl Whirl anyone?

I'd like to hear about Perl6::Contexts, if you're up to it. I wouldn't
mind talking about my ICFP entry (a collection of simple things --
nonbuffered IO, ad-hoc parsing technique, and Map.pm).

--Brock

On 2005.07.19.00.37, Scott Walters wrote:
| Hi Brock, everyone,
| 
| Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm only
| offering the following selection from those listed below:
| 
|    * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
|    * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
|      adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts
|      to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
|      suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
| 
| I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
| perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
| beta-test that, but that's up in the air.
| 
| Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  
| 
| Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
| my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 
| 
| Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why don't
| all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON but
| I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
| con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
| I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.
| 
| Okay, that's enough for now. 
| 
| Regards,
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Hello all,
| > 
| > For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent dictator, I
| > thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday July
| > 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center. For
| > the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on this
| > time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
| > 
| > And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
| > again I refer you to
| > 
| > http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas
| > 
| > for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
| > Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one and an
| > intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about all
| > sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
| > bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module you'd
| > like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on it!
| > 
| > recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't mind):
| >   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side
| >     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
| >   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
| >   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you want to cry
| >   * Intro to Perl5 objects
| >   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of fun)
| >   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say CGI::Application)
| >   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
| > 
| > So much to talk about! The floor is open.
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot more accessible
| > | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North Scottsdale
| > | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have laptops with
| > | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do view-only
| > | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
| > | 
| > | -scott
| > | 
| > | 
| > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > | > 
| > | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
| > | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no projector.
| > | > 
| > | > --Brock
| > | > 
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Tue Jul 19 15:48:24 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:48:24 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050719223317.GF19353@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719054240.GB19353@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050719073718.GE5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719223317.GF19353@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050719224824.GO5312@illogics.org>

Hi Brock,

I have a shed out back you can store all of your stuff in =)
Let's do OSCON!

In my opinion, if the RSVP response is subpar, postpone the meeting
and wait until the heatwave blows over.  No point wasting a perfectly
good presentation.  Or just make it a social meeting and meet at a pub
or coffee shop... or pizza joint. 

ICFP sounds interesting to me, but I, again, if there isn't one vote
out there for one thing, maybe we should wait a bit...

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> I hear that July is a very popular time for phoenicians to vacation...
> maybe thats an indicator for expected response. Hrm.
> 
> I'd love to go to OSCON (moreso than DEFCON I think) but can't 'cause
> I'm switching apartments right about then :(. I like the idea of a group
> trip though. What other things are coming up soon? Perl Whirl anyone?
> 
> I'd like to hear about Perl6::Contexts, if you're up to it. I wouldn't
> mind talking about my ICFP entry (a collection of simple things --
> nonbuffered IO, ad-hoc parsing technique, and Map.pm).
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.19.00.37, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Hi Brock, everyone,
> | 
> | Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm only
> | offering the following selection from those listed below:
> | 
> |    * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
> |    * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
> |      adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts
> |      to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
> |      suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
> | 
> | I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
> | perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
> | beta-test that, but that's up in the air.
> | 
> | Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  
> | 
> | Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
> | my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 
> | 
> | Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why don't
> | all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON but
> | I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
> | con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
> | I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.
> | 
> | Okay, that's enough for now. 
> | 
> | Regards,
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Hello all,
> | > 
> | > For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent dictator, I
> | > thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday July
> | > 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center. For
> | > the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on this
> | > time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
> | > 
> | > And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
> | > again I refer you to
> | > 
> | > http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas
> | > 
> | > for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
> | > Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one and an
> | > intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about all
> | > sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
> | > bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module you'd
> | > like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on it!
> | > 
> | > recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't mind):
> | >   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side
> | >     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
> | >   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
> | >   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you want to cry
> | >   * Intro to Perl5 objects
> | >   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of fun)
> | >   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say CGI::Application)
> | >   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> | > 
> | > So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot more accessible
> | > | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North Scottsdale
> | > | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have laptops with
> | > | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do view-only
> | > | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
> | > | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no projector.
> | > | > 
> | > | > --Brock
> | > | > 
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Jul 19 15:42:33 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:42:33 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367169E47@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Well, I was going the idea below via the web page only to find company
security has placed web.archive.org on it's block list.  That said I
found something interesting...if you shorten Brock's url to
http://phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas, it dumps some
output that looks suspiciously like Perl ;-).  Have a gander...

Anyway, I'd love to hear an overview by anyone whose done different
flavors of IPC and which they think works best, e.g. interrupt driven
passing of scalar data from child process to parent.

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Brock
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:33 PM
To: Scott Walters
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal



I hear that July is a very popular time for phoenicians to vacation...
maybe thats an indicator for expected response. Hrm.

I'd love to go to OSCON (moreso than DEFCON I think) but can't 'cause
I'm switching apartments right about then :(. I like the idea of a group
trip though. What other things are coming up soon? Perl Whirl anyone?

I'd like to hear about Perl6::Contexts, if you're up to it. I wouldn't
mind talking about my ICFP entry (a collection of simple things --
nonbuffered IO, ad-hoc parsing technique, and Map.pm).

--Brock

On 2005.07.19.00.37, Scott Walters wrote:
| Hi Brock, everyone,
| 
| Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm
only
| offering the following selection from those listed below:
| 
|    * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
|    * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
|      adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
contexts
|      to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
|      suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
| 
| I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
| perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
| beta-test that, but that's up in the air.
| 
| Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  
| 
| Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
| my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 
| 
| Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why don't
| all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON but
| I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
| con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
| I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.
| 
| Okay, that's enough for now. 
| 
| Regards,
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Hello all,
| > 
| > For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
dictator, I
| > thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday
July
| > 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center.
For
| > the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on
this
| > time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
| > 
| > And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
| > again I refer you to
| > 
| >
http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
PerlMongersIdeas
| > 
| > for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
| > Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one
and an
| > intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about
all
| > sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
| > bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module
you'd
| > like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on
it!
| > 
| > recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
mind):
| >   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
server-side
| >     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
| >   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
| >   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you
want to cry
| >   * Intro to Perl5 objects
| >   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of
fun)
| >   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
CGI::Application)
| >   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
| > 
| > So much to talk about! The floor is open.
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot
more accessible
| > | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North
Scottsdale
| > | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have
laptops with
| > | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do
view-only
| > | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
| > | 
| > | -scott
| > | 
| > | 
| > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > | > 
| > | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
Public
| > | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
projector.
| > | > 
| > | > --Brock
| > | > 
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Jul 19 15:45:35 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:45:35 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367169E4D@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Count me in, especially if food's involved.

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
Behalf Of Scott Walters
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:48 PM
To: Brock
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal


Hi Brock,

I have a shed out back you can store all of your stuff in =)
Let's do OSCON!

In my opinion, if the RSVP response is subpar, postpone the meeting
and wait until the heatwave blows over.  No point wasting a perfectly
good presentation.  Or just make it a social meeting and meet at a pub
or coffee shop... or pizza joint. 

ICFP sounds interesting to me, but I, again, if there isn't one vote
out there for one thing, maybe we should wait a bit...

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> I hear that July is a very popular time for phoenicians to vacation...
> maybe thats an indicator for expected response. Hrm.
> 
> I'd love to go to OSCON (moreso than DEFCON I think) but can't 'cause
> I'm switching apartments right about then :(. I like the idea of a
group
> trip though. What other things are coming up soon? Perl Whirl anyone?
> 
> I'd like to hear about Perl6::Contexts, if you're up to it. I wouldn't
> mind talking about my ICFP entry (a collection of simple things --
> nonbuffered IO, ad-hoc parsing technique, and Map.pm).
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.19.00.37, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Hi Brock, everyone,
> | 
> | Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm
only
> | offering the following selection from those listed below:
> | 
> |    * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
> |    * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
> |      adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
contexts
> |      to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
> |      suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
> | 
> | I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
> | perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
> | beta-test that, but that's up in the air.
> | 
> | Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  
> | 
> | Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
> | my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 
> | 
> | Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why
don't
> | all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON
but
> | I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
> | con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
> | I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.
> | 
> | Okay, that's enough for now. 
> | 
> | Regards,
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Hello all,
> | > 
> | > For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
dictator, I
> | > thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday
July
> | > 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center.
For
> | > the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback
on this
> | > time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
> | > 
> | > And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion.
Once
> | > again I refer you to
> | > 
> | >
http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
PerlMongersIdeas
> | > 
> | > for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the
list.
> | > Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one
and an
> | > intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about
all
> | > sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
> | > bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module
you'd
> | > like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt
on it!
> | > 
> | > recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
mind):
> | >   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
server-side
> | >     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
> | >   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
> | >   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make
you want to cry
> | >   * Intro to Perl5 objects
> | >   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of
fun)
> | >   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
CGI::Application)
> | >   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> | > 
> | > So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a
lot more accessible
> | > | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the
North Scottsdale
> | > | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people
have laptops with
> | > | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and
do view-only
> | > | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
Public
> | > | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
projector.
> | > | > 
> | > | > --Brock
> | > | > 
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Tue Jul 19 15:52:45 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:52:45 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367169E47@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367169E47@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20050719225245.GP5312@illogics.org>

Hi Bobby,

You can go as short as http://phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi

Or, for another version, http://perldesignpatterns.com/?self

That's my TinyWiki -- Wiki in under 100 lines of Perl ;)

Flavors of IRC?  IRC bot architecture?

-scott

On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:
> Well, I was going the idea below via the web page only to find company
> security has placed web.archive.org on it's block list.  That said I
> found something interesting...if you shorten Brock's url to
> http://phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas, it dumps some
> output that looks suspiciously like Perl ;-).  Have a gander...
> 
> Anyway, I'd love to hear an overview by anyone whose done different
> flavors of IPC and which they think works best, e.g. interrupt driven
> passing of scalar data from child process to parent.
> 
> Bobby
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
> Behalf Of Brock
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:33 PM
> To: Scott Walters
> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
> 
> 
> 
> I hear that July is a very popular time for phoenicians to vacation...
> maybe thats an indicator for expected response. Hrm.
> 
> I'd love to go to OSCON (moreso than DEFCON I think) but can't 'cause
> I'm switching apartments right about then :(. I like the idea of a group
> trip though. What other things are coming up soon? Perl Whirl anyone?
> 
> I'd like to hear about Perl6::Contexts, if you're up to it. I wouldn't
> mind talking about my ICFP entry (a collection of simple things --
> nonbuffered IO, ad-hoc parsing technique, and Map.pm).
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.19.00.37, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Hi Brock, everyone,
> | 
> | Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm
> only
> | offering the following selection from those listed below:
> | 
> |    * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
> |    * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
> |      adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
> contexts
> |      to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
> |      suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
> | 
> | I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
> | perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
> | beta-test that, but that's up in the air.
> | 
> | Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  
> | 
> | Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
> | my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 
> | 
> | Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why don't
> | all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON but
> | I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
> | con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
> | I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.
> | 
> | Okay, that's enough for now. 
> | 
> | Regards,
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Hello all,
> | > 
> | > For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
> dictator, I
> | > thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday
> July
> | > 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center.
> For
> | > the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on
> this
> | > time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
> | > 
> | > And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
> | > again I refer you to
> | > 
> | >
> http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
> PerlMongersIdeas
> | > 
> | > for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
> | > Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one
> and an
> | > intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about
> all
> | > sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
> | > bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module
> you'd
> | > like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on
> it!
> | > 
> | > recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
> mind):
> | >   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
> server-side
> | >     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
> | >   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
> | >   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you
> want to cry
> | >   * Intro to Perl5 objects
> | >   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of
> fun)
> | >   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
> CGI::Application)
> | >   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> | > 
> | > So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot
> more accessible
> | > | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North
> Scottsdale
> | > | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have
> laptops with
> | > | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do
> view-only
> | > | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
> Public
> | > | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
> projector.
> | > | > 
> | > | > --Brock
> | > | > 
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Jul 19 15:47:34 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:47:34 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367169E4E@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Inter Process Communication...might ah typo'd it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:53 PM
To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS
Cc: Brock; phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal


Hi Bobby,

You can go as short as http://phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi

Or, for another version, http://perldesignpatterns.com/?self

That's my TinyWiki -- Wiki in under 100 lines of Perl ;)

Flavors of IRC?  IRC bot architecture?

-scott

On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:
> Well, I was going the idea below via the web page only to find company
> security has placed web.archive.org on it's block list.  That said I
> found something interesting...if you shorten Brock's url to
> http://phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas, it dumps some
> output that looks suspiciously like Perl ;-).  Have a gander...
> 
> Anyway, I'd love to hear an overview by anyone whose done different
> flavors of IPC and which they think works best, e.g. interrupt driven
> passing of scalar data from child process to parent.
> 
> Bobby
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
> Behalf Of Brock
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:33 PM
> To: Scott Walters
> Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
> 
> 
> 
> I hear that July is a very popular time for phoenicians to vacation...
> maybe thats an indicator for expected response. Hrm.
> 
> I'd love to go to OSCON (moreso than DEFCON I think) but can't 'cause
> I'm switching apartments right about then :(. I like the idea of a
group
> trip though. What other things are coming up soon? Perl Whirl anyone?
> 
> I'd like to hear about Perl6::Contexts, if you're up to it. I wouldn't
> mind talking about my ICFP entry (a collection of simple things --
> nonbuffered IO, ad-hoc parsing technique, and Map.pm).
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.19.00.37, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Hi Brock, everyone,
> | 
> | Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm
> only
> | offering the following selection from those listed below:
> | 
> |    * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
> |    * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
> |      adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
> contexts
> |      to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
> |      suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
> | 
> | I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
> | perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
> | beta-test that, but that's up in the air.
> | 
> | Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  
> | 
> | Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
> | my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 
> | 
> | Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why
don't
> | all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON
but
> | I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
> | con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
> | I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.
> | 
> | Okay, that's enough for now. 
> | 
> | Regards,
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Hello all,
> | > 
> | > For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
> dictator, I
> | > thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday
> July
> | > 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center.
> For
> | > the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback
on
> this
> | > time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
> | > 
> | > And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion.
Once
> | > again I refer you to
> | > 
> | >
>
http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
> PerlMongersIdeas
> | > 
> | > for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the
list.
> | > Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one
> and an
> | > intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about
> all
> | > sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
> | > bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module
> you'd
> | > like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt
on
> it!
> | > 
> | > recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
> mind):
> | >   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
> server-side
> | >     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
> | >   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
> | >   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make
you
> want to cry
> | >   * Intro to Perl5 objects
> | >   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of
> fun)
> | >   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
> CGI::Application)
> | >   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> | > 
> | > So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a
lot
> more accessible
> | > | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the
North
> Scottsdale
> | > | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people
have
> laptops with
> | > | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and
do
> view-only
> | > | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
> Public
> | > | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
> projector.
> | > | > 
> | > | > --Brock
> | > | > 
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Tue Jul 19 15:59:50 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:59:50 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367169E4E@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B3457690473367169E4E@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20050719225950.GQ5312@illogics.org>

Ack... no, it was a read-o.  I'm multitasking.  I shouldn't reply
while multitasking.  Always causes problems.  That's not a bad
idea... 

-scott

On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:
> Inter Process Communication...might ah typo'd it.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:53 PM
> To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS
> Cc: Brock; phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
> 
> 
> Hi Bobby,
> 
> You can go as short as http://phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi
> 
> Or, for another version, http://perldesignpatterns.com/?self
> 
> That's my TinyWiki -- Wiki in under 100 lines of Perl ;)
> 
> Flavors of IRC?  IRC bot architecture?
> 
> -scott
> 
> On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:
> > Well, I was going the idea below via the web page only to find company
> > security has placed web.archive.org on it's block list.  That said I
> > found something interesting...if you shorten Brock's url to
> > http://phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas, it dumps some
> > output that looks suspiciously like Perl ;-).  Have a gander...
> > 
> > Anyway, I'd love to hear an overview by anyone whose done different
> > flavors of IPC and which they think works best, e.g. interrupt driven
> > passing of scalar data from child process to parent.
> > 
> > Bobby
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org]On
> > Behalf Of Brock
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:33 PM
> > To: Scott Walters
> > Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I hear that July is a very popular time for phoenicians to vacation...
> > maybe thats an indicator for expected response. Hrm.
> > 
> > I'd love to go to OSCON (moreso than DEFCON I think) but can't 'cause
> > I'm switching apartments right about then :(. I like the idea of a
> group
> > trip though. What other things are coming up soon? Perl Whirl anyone?
> > 
> > I'd like to hear about Perl6::Contexts, if you're up to it. I wouldn't
> > mind talking about my ICFP entry (a collection of simple things --
> > nonbuffered IO, ad-hoc parsing technique, and Map.pm).
> > 
> > --Brock
> > 
> > On 2005.07.19.00.37, Scott Walters wrote:
> > | Hi Brock, everyone,
> > | 
> > | Because I've been busy lately (and not the good kind of busy), I'm
> > only
> > | offering the following selection from those listed below:
> > | 
> > |    * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
> > |    * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
> > |      adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
> > contexts
> > |      to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
> > |      suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
> > | 
> > | I'm also getting ready to write an article, hopefully destined for
> > | perl.org.  When I figure out what it's going to be about, I could
> > | beta-test that, but that's up in the air.
> > | 
> > | Of course, I don't have to speak at all.  
> > | 
> > | Sorry about the Web site.  Things keep getting inserted above it in
> > | my to-do list. =(  Eventually, though... soon... 
> > | 
> > | Also, anyone going to DEFCON?  http://defcon.org.  In fact, why
> don't
> > | all of us go?  What about OSCON?  I'm pretty sure I'm doing DEFCON
> but
> > | I'm still trying to finagle OSCON.  I've always wanted to do a Perl
> > | con but they keep passing me by... right now it looks like if I go,
> > | I (1) will be riding Greyhound (2) will be sleeping under a bridge.
> > | 
> > | Okay, that's enough for now. 
> > | 
> > | Regards,
> > | -scott
> > | 
> > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> > | > 
> > | > Hello all,
> > | > 
> > | > For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
> > dictator, I
> > | > thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday
> > July
> > | > 29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center.
> > For
> > | > the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback
> on
> > this
> > | > time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.
> > | > 
> > | > And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion.
> Once
> > | > again I refer you to
> > | > 
> > | >
> >
> http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
> > PerlMongersIdeas
> > | > 
> > | > for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the
> list.
> > | > Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one
> > and an
> > | > intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about
> > all
> > | > sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
> > | > bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module
> > you'd
> > | > like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt
> on
> > it!
> > | > 
> > | > recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
> > mind):
> > | >   * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
> > server-side
> > | >     execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
> > | >   * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
> > | >   * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make
> you
> > want to cry
> > | >   * Intro to Perl5 objects
> > | >   * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of
> > fun)
> > | >   * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
> > CGI::Application)
> > | >   * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> > | > 
> > | > So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> > | > 
> > | > --Brock
> > | > 
> > | > On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> > | > | Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a
> lot
> > more accessible
> > | > | to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the
> North
> > Scottsdale
> > | > | crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people
> have
> > laptops with
> > | > | WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and
> do
> > view-only
> > | > | mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> > | > | 
> > | > | -scott
> > | > | 
> > | > | 
> > | > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> > | > | > 
> > | > | > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
> > Public
> > | > | > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
> > projector.
> > | > | > 
> > | > | > --Brock
> > | > | > 
> > | > | > _______________________________________________
> > | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > | > _______________________________________________
> > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Jul 19 15:53:53 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:53:53 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050719224824.GO5312@illogics.org>
References: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719054240.GB19353@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050719073718.GE5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719223317.GF19353@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050719224824.GO5312@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050719225353.GG19353@thelackthereof.org>

On 2005.07.19.15.48, Scott Walters wrote:
| Hi Brock,
| 
| I have a shed out back you can store all of your stuff in =)
| Let's do OSCON!

*Zoolander voice* Damn you self employed freaks and you're "lets go to
OSCON!" in two weeks temptations. As a new employee I don't get any
vacation time until Sept. 1st. So I have to be lame and decline. But
I'll go ask my boss just in case.

| In my opinion, if the RSVP response is subpar, postpone the meeting
| and wait until the heatwave blows over.  No point wasting a perfectly
| good presentation.  Or just make it a social meeting and meet at a pub
| or coffee shop... or pizza joint. 

I'll let it soak for another day or two :)

--Brock


From scott at illogics.org  Tue Jul 19 16:03:39 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:03:39 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050719225353.GG19353@thelackthereof.org>
References: <20050715001353.GX20649@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050715073837.GP5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719054240.GB19353@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050719073718.GE5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719223317.GF19353@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050719224824.GO5312@illogics.org>
	<20050719225353.GG19353@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050719230338.GS5312@illogics.org>

Heh, self-unimployed.  In case you missed the first message, I was
running into the logistical problems of having to sleep under a bridge
while I was there.  Now do you understand my motivation for trying
to get you to go? >=)

Seriously, you might be able to pitch it as Perl-programmer education --
that's how most people sell their companies on it.  There are talks all
day long, you see... 

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> On 2005.07.19.15.48, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Hi Brock,
> | 
> | I have a shed out back you can store all of your stuff in =)
> | Let's do OSCON!
> 
> *Zoolander voice* Damn you self employed freaks and you're "lets go to
> OSCON!" in two weeks temptations. As a new employee I don't get any
> vacation time until Sept. 1st. So I have to be lame and decline. But
> I'll go ask my boss just in case.
> 
> | In my opinion, if the RSVP response is subpar, postpone the meeting
> | and wait until the heatwave blows over.  No point wasting a perfectly
> | good presentation.  Or just make it a social meeting and meet at a pub
> | or coffee shop... or pizza joint. 
> 
> I'll let it soak for another day or two :)
> 
> --Brock
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Tue Jul 19 19:33:34 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:33:34 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Learning Perl *Fourth*  Edition
Message-ID: <20050720023512.CXCC1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@COM>

Just noticed that O'Reilly has released yet another edition
of the venerable Llama book: 

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learnperl4/

Interestingly, brian d foy contributed to this edition in
addition to Randal Schwartz and Tom Phoenix. 

Also, Damian Conway's _Perl Best Practices_, which I mentioned
earlier, appears to have been released by O'Reilly, though
Amazon still says it's not. 

(I seem to be turning into quite the O'Reilly schill.  I
suppose there are worse things to be.)  


--aj



From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Tue Jul 19 19:33:59 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:33:59 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <20050720023541.CXGF1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@COM>

For the beginner-to-intermediate part, I could present an
Introduction to POD.  Some people think POD is an advanced
part of Perl, but it's really quite easy to learn (the talk
is ~15min).  Plus, once you have the basics down, POD can
be a powerful way to document your Perl source.   

OK, enough salesmanship; if the group is interested, I'd
be happy to present.  If not, that's just another set of
slides we're all spared from. :-) 

--aj


Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
__________
>
>Hello all,
>
>For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
dictator, I 
>thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on
Thursday July 
>29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic
Center. For 
>the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome
feedback on this 
>time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have
a topic. 
>
>And now for the second part... the presentation / talk
portion. Once 
>again I refer you to
>
>http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/in
ex.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas 
>
>for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here
to the list. 
>Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate
one and an 
>intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to
talk about all 
>sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome.
Something 
>bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some
module you'd 
>like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get
the dirt on it! 
>
>recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope
he doesn't mind): 
>  * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
>  * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
server-side 
>    execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
>  * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
>  * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll
make you want to cry 
>  * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would
be fuuun) -- 
>    adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
contexts 
>    to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
>    suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
>  * Intro to Perl5 objects
>  * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all
sorts of fun) 
>  * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
CGI::Application) 
>  * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
>
>So much to talk about! The floor is open.
>
>--Brock
>
>On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
>| Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should
be a lot more accessible 
>| to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some
of the North Scottsdale 
>| crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough
people have laptops with 
>| WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network
and do view-only 
>| mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
>| 
>| -scott
>| 
>| 
>| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>| > 
>| > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
Public 
>| > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards,
but no projector. 
>| > 
>| > --Brock
>| > 
>| > _______________________________________________
>| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm



From scott at illogics.org  Tue Jul 19 23:56:35 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:56:35 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050720023541.CXGF1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@COM>
References: <20050720023541.CXGF1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@COM>
Message-ID: <20050720065635.GT5312@illogics.org>

Cruising around on ORA's site, I find this graph of booksales
per language:

http://photos16.flickr.com/19788490_a28a007a66_o.png

Lots of Java novices.  Bwahahahaha!!

POD sounds good to me, but I'm still waiting to hear votes from
people who might be interested in a subject.

-scott


On  0, Andrew Johnson <andypm at exiledplanet.org> wrote:
> For the beginner-to-intermediate part, I could present an
> Introduction to POD.  Some people think POD is an advanced
> part of Perl, but it's really quite easy to learn (the talk
> is ~15min).  Plus, once you have the basics down, POD can
> be a powerful way to document your Perl source.   
> 
> OK, enough salesmanship; if the group is interested, I'd
> be happy to present.  If not, that's just another set of
> slides we're all spared from. :-) 
> 
> --aj
> 
> 
> Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> __________
> >
> >Hello all,
> >
> >For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
> dictator, I 
> >thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on
> Thursday July 
> >29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic
> Center. For 
> >the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome
> feedback on this 
> >time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have
> a topic. 
> >
> >And now for the second part... the presentation / talk
> portion. Once 
> >again I refer you to
> >
> >http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/in
> ex.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas 
> >
> >for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here
> to the list. 
> >Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate
> one and an 
> >intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to
> talk about all 
> >sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome.
> Something 
> >bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some
> module you'd 
> >like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get
> the dirt on it! 
> >
> >recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope
> he doesn't mind): 
> >  * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
> >  * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
> server-side 
> >    execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
> >  * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
> >  * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll
> make you want to cry 
> >  * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would
> be fuuun) -- 
> >    adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
> contexts 
> >    to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
> >    suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
> >  * Intro to Perl5 objects
> >  * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all
> sorts of fun) 
> >  * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
> CGI::Application) 
> >  * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> >
> >So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> >
> >--Brock
> >
> >On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> >| Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should
> be a lot more accessible 
> >| to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some
> of the North Scottsdale 
> >| crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough
> people have laptops with 
> >| WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network
> and do view-only 
> >| mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> >| 
> >| -scott
> >| 
> >| 
> >| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> >| > 
> >| > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
> Public 
> >| > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards,
> but no projector. 
> >| > 
> >| > --Brock
> >| > 
> >| > _______________________________________________
> >| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> >_______________________________________________
> >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Wed Jul 20 01:26:51 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:26:51 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <20050720023541.CXGF1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@COM>
References: <20050720023541.CXGF1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@COM>
Message-ID: <20050720082651.GU5312@illogics.org>

Oh, by the way... you often hear about wretched Perl 5's internals
are, with it's deeply layered macros and utter lack of OO, 
except for the slightest hint in SV/AV/HV/GV/etcs.

But, reported, the JVM is far worse:
http://www.jroller.com/page/slava/20050102#the_hotspot_source_code_is

How so very amusing...

I especially like the part about how reflection is implemented
by generating a class on the fly.

-scott

On  0, Andrew Johnson <andypm at exiledplanet.org> wrote:
> For the beginner-to-intermediate part, I could present an
> Introduction to POD.  Some people think POD is an advanced
> part of Perl, but it's really quite easy to learn (the talk
> is ~15min).  Plus, once you have the basics down, POD can
> be a powerful way to document your Perl source.   
> 
> OK, enough salesmanship; if the group is interested, I'd
> be happy to present.  If not, that's just another set of
> slides we're all spared from. :-) 
> 
> --aj
> 
> 
> Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> __________
> >
> >Hello all,
> >
> >For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
> dictator, I 
> >thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on
> Thursday July 
> >29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic
> Center. For 
> >the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome
> feedback on this 
> >time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have
> a topic. 
> >
> >And now for the second part... the presentation / talk
> portion. Once 
> >again I refer you to
> >
> >http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/in
> ex.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas 
> >
> >for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here
> to the list. 
> >Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate
> one and an 
> >intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to
> talk about all 
> >sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome.
> Something 
> >bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some
> module you'd 
> >like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get
> the dirt on it! 
> >
> >recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope
> he doesn't mind): 
> >  * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
> >  * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
> server-side 
> >    execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
> >  * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
> >  * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll
> make you want to cry 
> >  * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would
> be fuuun) -- 
> >    adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
> contexts 
> >    to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
> >    suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
> >  * Intro to Perl5 objects
> >  * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all
> sorts of fun) 
> >  * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
> CGI::Application) 
> >  * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
> >
> >So much to talk about! The floor is open.
> >
> >--Brock
> >
> >On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
> >| Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should
> be a lot more accessible 
> >| to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some
> of the North Scottsdale 
> >| crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough
> people have laptops with 
> >| WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network
> and do view-only 
> >| mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
> >| 
> >| -scott
> >| 
> >| 
> >| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> >| > 
> >| > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
> Public 
> >| > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards,
> but no projector. 
> >| > 
> >| > --Brock
> >| > 
> >| > _______________________________________________
> >| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> >_______________________________________________
> >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com  Wed Jul 20 06:06:51 2005
From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:06:51 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B9958@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>

POD would be a good beginner-to-intermediate part.  Other suggestions
would include:

Creating objects in Perl
Perl Best Practices
Creating graphs in Perl

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:34 PM
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal

For the beginner-to-intermediate part, I could present an
Introduction to POD.  Some people think POD is an advanced
part of Perl, but it's really quite easy to learn (the talk
is ~15min).  Plus, once you have the basics down, POD can
be a powerful way to document your Perl source.   

OK, enough salesmanship; if the group is interested, I'd
be happy to present.  If not, that's just another set of
slides we're all spared from. :-) 

--aj


Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
__________
>
>Hello all,
>
>For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent
dictator, I 
>thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on
Thursday July 
>29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic
Center. For 
>the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome
feedback on this 
>time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have
a topic. 
>
>And now for the second part... the presentation / talk
portion. Once 
>again I refer you to
>
>http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/in
ex.cgi?PerlMongersIdeas 
>
>for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here
to the list. 
>Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate
one and an 
>intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to
talk about all 
>sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome.
Something 
>bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some
module you'd 
>like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get
the dirt on it! 
>
>recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope
he doesn't mind): 
>  * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
>  * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure
server-side 
>    execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
>  * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
>  * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll
make you want to cry 
>  * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would
be fuuun) -- 
>    adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference
contexts 
>    to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
>    suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
>  * Intro to Perl5 objects
>  * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all
sorts of fun) 
>  * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
CGI::Application) 
>  * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome
>
>So much to talk about! The floor is open.
>
>--Brock
>
>On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
>| Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should
be a lot more accessible 
>| to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some
of the North Scottsdale 
>| crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough
people have laptops with 
>| WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network
and do view-only 
>| mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
>| 
>| -scott
>| 
>| 
>| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>| > 
>| > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale
Public 
>| > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards,
but no projector. 
>| > 
>| > --Brock
>| > 
>| > _______________________________________________
>| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


**********************************************************************
The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged.
If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, 
distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error,
please re-send this communication to the sender and
delete the original message or any copy of it from your
computer system. Thank You.


From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com  Wed Jul 20 07:50:27 2005
From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:50:27 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B995C@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>

I game this month.

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On
Behalf Of Brock
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:43 PM
To: Scott Walters
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal


Hello all,

For those of you who prefer to think of me as the benevolent dictator, I
thought I'd let you know that we are having a meeting on Thursday July
29 2005 at 7:00pm at the Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center. For
the (representative-)democratically inclined, I welcome feedback on this
time/location. I'll make a full anouncement once we have a topic.

And now for the second part... the presentation / talk portion. Once
again I refer you to

http://web.archive.org/web/20040726180006/phoenix.pm.org/wiki/index.cgi?
PerlMongersIdeas

for some suggestions. Please mail your suggestions here to the list.
Ideally I'd like two shorter talks -- a beginner-intermediate one and an
intermediate-advanced. Scott and I both are willing to talk about all
sorts of things, and other volunteers are very welcome. Something
bugging you about some Perl code you're working on? Some module you'd
like to see in action? Now is the time and place to get the dirt on it!

recently mentioned suggestions (mostly by Scott... hope he doesn't
mind):
  * The making of _Perl 6 Now_
  * Architecture of "Active Wiki Pages" in TinyWiki (secure server-side
    execute of Perl in user-edited pages)
  * How to parse HTML, scrape pages, and crawl sites
  * A really horrible PDF invoice generator in Perl that'll make you
want to cry
  * Theory and use of Perl6::Contexts (ooh, this would be fuuun) --
    adding Perl 6 style string, integer, boolean, and reference contexts
    to Perl 5 for a mondo cool code effect with greatly reduced
    suckiness. This is another B::Generate hack of mine.
  * Intro to Perl5 objects
  * Using Perl for the ICFP 2005 Contest (which was all sorts of fun)
  * Using (pick your favorite web-framework -- lets say
CGI::Application)
  * other suggestions / volunteer presentations welcome

So much to talk about! The floor is open.

--Brock

On 2005.07.15.00.38, Scott Walters wrote:
| Scottsdale Civic Center library sounds good.  That should be a lot
more accessible
| to people in Mesa and Phoenix but we might lose some of the North
Scottsdale
| crowd.  I sure don't have a data projector.  If enough people have
laptops with
| WiFi and the VNC client, we can all get the on the network and do
view-only
| mode off of the presenter.  Just a thought.
| 
| -scott
| 
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Does anyone have a projector? We can meet at the Scottsdale Public
| > Library (Civic Center) -- They have wifi, whiteboards, but no
projector.
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


**********************************************************************
The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged.
If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, 
distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error,
please re-send this communication to the sender and
delete the original message or any copy of it from your
computer system. Thank You.


From jay.spamhog at gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 12:35:56 2005
From: jay.spamhog at gmail.com (Jay Spamhog)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:35:56 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <839490bc05072012352b4a7f59@mail.gmail.com>

> POD sounds good to me, but I'm still waiting to hear votes
> from people who might be interested in a subject.

I know and use POD, but if there are others in the group that don't,
it would definitely be a good topic.

I believe someone mentioned a best practices talk - that would be my
preferred topic.  (I still need to get hold of Conway's new book.) 
The Perl6::Contexts topic also sounds interesting to me.  (Or indeed,
anything regarding Perl 6, since I know next to nothing about it.)

The upcoming meeting will be my first, so looking forward to meeting everyone!

From benjamin.trussell at asu.edu  Wed Jul 20 13:36:28 2005
From: benjamin.trussell at asu.edu (Benjamin Trussell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:36:28 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <D1CFE1E92360C7439E503E72FCF7699F02F015EE@ex5.asurite.ad.asu.edu>

POD sounds good.  I'd also enjoy a Best Practices talk.  I'd also like
to learn [something] about Perl 6.  ... Oh wait, you want me to pick a
favorite?  So many good topics :-)

Does anyone else on the list have a Safari account?  If so, Can any say
how long it takes for new O'reilly books hit the online library? I'd
like to hold off and access the Best Practices book via Safari Online,
though I may still break down and buy a copy.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On
Behalf Of Jay Spamhog
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:36 PM
To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal

> POD sounds good to me, but I'm still waiting to hear votes
> from people who might be interested in a subject.

I know and use POD, but if there are others in the group that don't,
it would definitely be a good topic.

I believe someone mentioned a best practices talk - that would be my
preferred topic.  (I still need to get hold of Conway's new book.) 
The Perl6::Contexts topic also sounds interesting to me.  (Or indeed,
anything regarding Perl 6, since I know next to nothing about it.)

The upcoming meeting will be my first, so looking forward to meeting
everyone!
_______________________________________________
Phoenix-pm mailing list
Phoenix-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


From scott at illogics.org  Wed Jul 20 13:57:47 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:57:47 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
In-Reply-To: <D1CFE1E92360C7439E503E72FCF7699F02F015EE@ex5.asurite.ad.asu.edu>
References: <D1CFE1E92360C7439E503E72FCF7699F02F015EE@ex5.asurite.ad.asu.edu>
Message-ID: <20050720205747.GW5312@illogics.org>

Hi Ben,

I'll ask Nathan Torkington how it takes to get things on Safari when I see 
him at DEFCON.  You guys sure you don't want to go to DEFCON with me? >=)

Ehrm, er, ah... anyway...

This is the second "I don't know much about Perl 6 so I'd like to hear
some more" comment so I think I'll dust off my old series of beta material
from _Perl 6 Now_, clean it up, expand it a bit, tack the Perl6::Contexts
discussion onto that, and do that presentation again... maybe not this
time around, but soon.  It sounds like there are a few volunteers this
time so I don't have to worry about doing something =)  

-scott

On  0, Benjamin Trussell <benjamin.trussell at asu.edu> wrote:
> POD sounds good.  I'd also enjoy a Best Practices talk.  I'd also like
> to learn [something] about Perl 6.  ... Oh wait, you want me to pick a
> favorite?  So many good topics :-)
> 
> Does anyone else on the list have a Safari account?  If so, Can any say
> how long it takes for new O'reilly books hit the online library? I'd
> like to hold off and access the Best Practices book via Safari Online,
> though I may still break down and buy a copy.
> 
> Ben
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On
> Behalf Of Jay Spamhog
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:36 PM
> To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
> 
> > POD sounds good to me, but I'm still waiting to hear votes
> > from people who might be interested in a subject.
> 
> I know and use POD, but if there are others in the group that don't,
> it would definitely be a good topic.
> 
> I believe someone mentioned a best practices talk - that would be my
> preferred topic.  (I still need to get hold of Conway's new book.) 
> The Perl6::Contexts topic also sounds interesting to me.  (Or indeed,
> anything regarding Perl 6, since I know next to nothing about it.)
> 
> The upcoming meeting will be my first, so looking forward to meeting
> everyone!
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From benjamin.trussell at asu.edu  Wed Jul 20 14:12:31 2005
From: benjamin.trussell at asu.edu (Benjamin Trussell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:12:31 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
Message-ID: <D1CFE1E92360C7439E503E72FCF7699F02F01607@ex5.asurite.ad.asu.edu>

I'd like to go to DEFCON; never been to one before.  But by the time I
thought "yes" to going a little while back, my colleagues here in my
unit had already determined their vacation times, and now I can't go on
vacation until a little later in August (That is, I didn't check to see
when everyone's vacation times were early, which allowed myself the
false sense of hope of thinking I'd go in the first place...).  I swore
to myself last year I'd plan more in advance for this year, then didn't
plan ahead this year... :-/


Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 1:58 PM
To: Benjamin Trussell
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal

Hi Ben,

I'll ask Nathan Torkington how it takes to get things on Safari when I
see 
him at DEFCON.  You guys sure you don't want to go to DEFCON with me?
>=)

Ehrm, er, ah... anyway...

This is the second "I don't know much about Perl 6 so I'd like to hear
some more" comment so I think I'll dust off my old series of beta
material
from _Perl 6 Now_, clean it up, expand it a bit, tack the
Perl6::Contexts
discussion onto that, and do that presentation again... maybe not this
time around, but soon.  It sounds like there are a few volunteers this
time so I don't have to worry about doing something =)  

-scott

On  0, Benjamin Trussell <benjamin.trussell at asu.edu> wrote:
> POD sounds good.  I'd also enjoy a Best Practices talk.  I'd also like
> to learn [something] about Perl 6.  ... Oh wait, you want me to pick a
> favorite?  So many good topics :-)
> 
> Does anyone else on the list have a Safari account?  If so, Can any
say
> how long it takes for new O'reilly books hit the online library? I'd
> like to hold off and access the Best Practices book via Safari Online,
> though I may still break down and buy a copy.
> 
> Ben
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces at pm.org] On
> Behalf Of Jay Spamhog
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:36 PM
> To: phoenix-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] meeting proposal
> 
> > POD sounds good to me, but I'm still waiting to hear votes
> > from people who might be interested in a subject.
> 
> I know and use POD, but if there are others in the group that don't,
> it would definitely be a good topic.
> 
> I believe someone mentioned a best practices talk - that would be my
> preferred topic.  (I still need to get hold of Conway's new book.) 
> The Perl6::Contexts topic also sounds interesting to me.  (Or indeed,
> anything regarding Perl 6, since I know next to nothing about it.)
> 
> The upcoming meeting will be my first, so looking forward to meeting
> everyone!
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm


From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com  Fri Jul 22 14:24:48 2005
From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:24:48 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda
Message-ID: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>

Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a list
of who is presenting.



**********************************************************************
The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged.
If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, 
distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error,
please re-send this communication to the sender and
delete the original message or any copy of it from your
computer system. Thank You.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/phoenix-pm/attachments/20050722/2068c20c/attachment.html

From scott at illogics.org  Fri Jul 22 15:20:49 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:20:49 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda
In-Reply-To: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
Message-ID: <20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>

I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a good
idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm sorry),
and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong with
having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much time they
want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.

-scott

On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
> 
>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
>    list of who is presenting.
>    
>    **********************************************************************
>    The information contained in this communication is
>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
>    prohibited.
>    If you have received this communication in error,
>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
>    computer system. Thank You.

> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Jul 22 15:32:08 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:32:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>


OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).

Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.

Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.

To recap --

Phoenix.pm Meeting
Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
          3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
          Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
          http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1

See you there!
--Brock

> I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
> good
> idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
> sorry),
> and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
> with
> having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
> time they
> want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
>
> -scott
>
> On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
>>
>>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
>>    list of who is presenting.
>>
>>    **********************************************************************
>>    The information contained in this communication is
>>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
>>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
>>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
>>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
>>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
>>    prohibited.
>>    If you have received this communication in error,
>>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
>>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
>>    computer system. Thank You.
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Phoenix-pm mailing list
>> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>
>



From scott at illogics.org  Fri Jul 22 16:43:36 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:43:36 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
	<49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>
Message-ID: <20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>

Okay, I'll get to work then! I'll make it short - 15 or 30 minutes. 
I'll get back to the list when I figure out exactly what Perl 6 related
thing I'm going to talk about, but it'll probably go one of two directions.

Brock, why don't you plan on doing your ICFP entry presentation next time?
I'm afraid I'm going to forget about a presentation... that would be bad.

-scott


On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
> so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
> reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
> happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
> 
> Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
> whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
> 
> Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
> bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
> random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
> knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
> discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
> but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.
> 
> To recap --
> 
> Phoenix.pm Meeting
> Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
> Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
> Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
>           3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
>           Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
>           http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
> Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1
> 
> See you there!
> --Brock
> 
> > I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
> > good
> > idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
> > sorry),
> > and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
> > with
> > having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
> > time they
> > want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
> >
> > -scott
> >
> > On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
> >>    list of who is presenting.
> >>
> >>    **********************************************************************
> >>    The information contained in this communication is
> >>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
> >>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
> >>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
> >>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> >>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
> >>    prohibited.
> >>    If you have received this communication in error,
> >>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
> >>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
> >>    computer system. Thank You.
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Fri Jul 22 18:42:59 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:42:59 +0000
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
Message-ID: <20050723014440.UIAW17043.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@COM>


"Brock" <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
__________
>
>OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always
some straglers, 

Count me as an RSVP straggler.

>so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which
I've already 
>reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities
too (I am still 
>happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
>
>Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Cont
xts or 
>whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
>

Consider it done.  Though I've previously given the talk
to $TheDayJob.pm, I'm revamping it for brevity, so it can
also be repackaged in convenient podcast form.  "Introduction
to Pod" should not exceed 15 minutes. 

--aj



From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Sat Jul 23 09:21:01 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:21:01 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
	<49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>
	<20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>


Yeah, I'll hit the ICFP topic or something related to that code another
time.

Regarding the wifi available at the library -- I was just reading up on
it and it isn't as "open" as I might like. The only allowed outgoing
traffic is though a "filtered" (do they mean _content_ filter? ew)
port-80 proxy. So set up your work-arounds ahead of time if you need any
:)

  * http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/atmylibrary/wireless.htm

--Brock

On 2005.07.22.16.43, Scott Walters wrote:
| Okay, I'll get to work then! I'll make it short - 15 or 30 minutes. 
| I'll get back to the list when I figure out exactly what Perl 6 related
| thing I'm going to talk about, but it'll probably go one of two directions.
| 
| Brock, why don't you plan on doing your ICFP entry presentation next time?
| I'm afraid I'm going to forget about a presentation... that would be bad.
| 
| -scott
| 
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
| > so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
| > reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
| > happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
| > 
| > Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
| > whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
| > 
| > Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
| > bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
| > random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
| > knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
| > discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
| > but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.
| > 
| > To recap --
| > 
| > Phoenix.pm Meeting
| > Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
| > Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
| > Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
| >           3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
| >           Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
| >           http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
| > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1
| > 
| > See you there!
| > --Brock
| > 
| > > I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
| > > good
| > > idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
| > > sorry),
| > > and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
| > > with
| > > having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
| > > time they
| > > want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
| > >
| > > -scott
| > >
| > > On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
| > >>
| > >>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
| > >>    list of who is presenting.
| > >>
| > >>    **********************************************************************
| > >>    The information contained in this communication is
| > >>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
| > >>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
| > >>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
| > >>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
| > >>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
| > >>    prohibited.
| > >>    If you have received this communication in error,
| > >>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
| > >>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
| > >>    computer system. Thank You.
| > >
| > >> _______________________________________________
| > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > > _______________________________________________
| > > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > >
| > >
| > 
| > 
| > _______________________________________________
| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From andypm at exiledplanet.org  Sat Jul 23 13:36:07 2005
From: andypm at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:36:07 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>	<49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>	<20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>
	<20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <42E2AA37.6060805@exiledplanet.org>

Actually, I'm not surprised. I'm pretty sure I remember Congress passing 
an act in the past year or so that denied federal funding to libraries 
that didn't implement content filters on their Internet access.

Brock wrote:

>Yeah, I'll hit the ICFP topic or something related to that code another
>time.
>
>Regarding the wifi available at the library -- I was just reading up on
>it and it isn't as "open" as I might like. The only allowed outgoing
>traffic is though a "filtered" (do they mean _content_ filter? ew)
>port-80 proxy. So set up your work-arounds ahead of time if you need any
>:)
>
>  * http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/atmylibrary/wireless.htm
>
>--Brock
>
>On 2005.07.22.16.43, Scott Walters wrote:
>| Okay, I'll get to work then! I'll make it short - 15 or 30 minutes. 
>| I'll get back to the list when I figure out exactly what Perl 6 related
>| thing I'm going to talk about, but it'll probably go one of two directions.
>| 
>| Brock, why don't you plan on doing your ICFP entry presentation next time?
>| I'm afraid I'm going to forget about a presentation... that would be bad.
>| 
>| -scott
>| 
>| 
>| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
>| > 
>| > OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
>| > so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
>| > reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
>| > happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
>| > 
>| > Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
>| > whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
>| > 
>| > Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
>| > bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
>| > random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
>| > knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
>| > discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
>| > but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.
>| > 
>| > To recap --
>| > 
>| > Phoenix.pm Meeting
>| > Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
>| > Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
>| > Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
>| >           3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
>| >           Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
>| >           http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
>| > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1
>| > 
>| > See you there!
>| > --Brock
>| > 
>| > > I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
>| > > good
>| > > idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
>| > > sorry),
>| > > and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
>| > > with
>| > > having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
>| > > time they
>| > > want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
>| > >
>| > > -scott
>| > >
>| > > On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
>| > >>
>| > >>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
>| > >>    list of who is presenting.
>| > >>
>| > >>    **********************************************************************
>| > >>    The information contained in this communication is
>| > >>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
>| > >>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
>| > >>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
>| > >>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
>| > >>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
>| > >>    prohibited.
>| > >>    If you have received this communication in error,
>| > >>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
>| > >>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
>| > >>    computer system. Thank You.
>| > >
>| > >> _______________________________________________
>| > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>| > > _______________________________________________
>| > > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>| > >
>| > >
>| > 
>| > 
>| > _______________________________________________
>| > Phoenix-pm mailing list
>| > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>| > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm at pm.org
>http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>  
>


From scott at illogics.org  Sat Jul 23 14:38:14 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:38:14 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
	<49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>
	<20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>
	<20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050723213814.GZ5312@illogics.org>

I've used this wifi before. Port 80 out is blocked, so you have to use
the proxy and set up as indicated. However, other ports are unblocked,
so you could download your pr0n using, oh, say, gtk-gnutella...

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I'll hit the ICFP topic or something related to that code another
> time.
> 
> Regarding the wifi available at the library -- I was just reading up on
> it and it isn't as "open" as I might like. The only allowed outgoing
> traffic is though a "filtered" (do they mean _content_ filter? ew)
> port-80 proxy. So set up your work-arounds ahead of time if you need any
> :)
> 
>   * http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/atmylibrary/wireless.htm
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.22.16.43, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Okay, I'll get to work then! I'll make it short - 15 or 30 minutes. 
> | I'll get back to the list when I figure out exactly what Perl 6 related
> | thing I'm going to talk about, but it'll probably go one of two directions.
> | 
> | Brock, why don't you plan on doing your ICFP entry presentation next time?
> | I'm afraid I'm going to forget about a presentation... that would be bad.
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
> | > so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
> | > reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
> | > happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
> | > 
> | > Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
> | > whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
> | > 
> | > Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
> | > bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
> | > random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
> | > knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
> | > discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
> | > but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.
> | > 
> | > To recap --
> | > 
> | > Phoenix.pm Meeting
> | > Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
> | > Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
> | > Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
> | >           3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
> | >           Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
> | >           http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
> | > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1
> | > 
> | > See you there!
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > > I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
> | > > good
> | > > idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
> | > > sorry),
> | > > and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
> | > > with
> | > > having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
> | > > time they
> | > > want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
> | > >
> | > > -scott
> | > >
> | > > On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
> | > >>
> | > >>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
> | > >>    list of who is presenting.
> | > >>
> | > >>    **********************************************************************
> | > >>    The information contained in this communication is
> | > >>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
> | > >>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
> | > >>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
> | > >>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> | > >>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
> | > >>    prohibited.
> | > >>    If you have received this communication in error,
> | > >>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
> | > >>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
> | > >>    computer system. Thank You.
> | > >
> | > >> _______________________________________________
> | > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > > _______________________________________________
> | > > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > >
> | > >
> | > 
> | > 
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Sat Jul 23 15:07:54 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:07:54 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
	<49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>
	<20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>
	<20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050723220754.GA5312@illogics.org>

Eeek... okay, I guess DEFCON starts on Friday, and we leave Thurs
afternoon at 4:.  So I won't be able to make the meeting.  Sorry
about that.  No presentatior for me.  That also means Brock is
probably going to do his presentation without me, and I wanted to 
see that.  I did an ICFP contest entry as a presentation along 
time ago... the code style I descended into under the pressure
was quite odd, and I've grown to start looking at more projects
as ICFP contests.  The whole experience was really good for me as
a programmer.  So, next year, Phoenix.PM is entering as a team.
We can use my house as HQ.  I've got a coffee pot and some good
quality coffee, and I'll stock Jolt (which looks like they're
going after the energy drink market:
http://www.joltcola.com/p2.html ).  There's a futon on the 
private, covered patio and a guest room.  That would *rule*.
Heh, heh heh heh. 

Anyway, sorry I can't make it, or present, this time...

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I'll hit the ICFP topic or something related to that code another
> time.
> 
> Regarding the wifi available at the library -- I was just reading up on
> it and it isn't as "open" as I might like. The only allowed outgoing
> traffic is though a "filtered" (do they mean _content_ filter? ew)
> port-80 proxy. So set up your work-arounds ahead of time if you need any
> :)
> 
>   * http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/atmylibrary/wireless.htm
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.22.16.43, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Okay, I'll get to work then! I'll make it short - 15 or 30 minutes. 
> | I'll get back to the list when I figure out exactly what Perl 6 related
> | thing I'm going to talk about, but it'll probably go one of two directions.
> | 
> | Brock, why don't you plan on doing your ICFP entry presentation next time?
> | I'm afraid I'm going to forget about a presentation... that would be bad.
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
> | > so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
> | > reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
> | > happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
> | > 
> | > Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
> | > whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
> | > 
> | > Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
> | > bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
> | > random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
> | > knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
> | > discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
> | > but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.
> | > 
> | > To recap --
> | > 
> | > Phoenix.pm Meeting
> | > Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
> | > Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
> | > Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
> | >           3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
> | >           Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
> | >           http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
> | > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1
> | > 
> | > See you there!
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > > I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
> | > > good
> | > > idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
> | > > sorry),
> | > > and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
> | > > with
> | > > having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
> | > > time they
> | > > want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
> | > >
> | > > -scott
> | > >
> | > > On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
> | > >>
> | > >>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
> | > >>    list of who is presenting.
> | > >>
> | > >>    **********************************************************************
> | > >>    The information contained in this communication is
> | > >>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
> | > >>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
> | > >>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
> | > >>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> | > >>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
> | > >>    prohibited.
> | > >>    If you have received this communication in error,
> | > >>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
> | > >>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
> | > >>    computer system. Thank You.
> | > >
> | > >> _______________________________________________
> | > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > > _______________________________________________
> | > > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > >
> | > >
> | > 
> | > 
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Sat Jul 23 16:45:45 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:45:45 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <20050723220754.GA5312@illogics.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
	<49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>
	<20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>
	<20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050723220754.GA5312@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <20050723234545.GB1334@thelackthereof.org>


No problem. We'll miss you, but have fun at DEFCON.

I'm down with the Phoenix.PM ICFP for next year (or other random
contests that we find or make up, as life permits. Its not every weekend
I can take a day off of work and not sleep :) ).

So I'll prepare some material on the topic.

I'm happy to hear they are only content-filtering port 80 so I can ssh
into my box. Maybes me a happy Brock.

--Brock

On 2005.07.23.15.07, Scott Walters wrote:
| Eeek... okay, I guess DEFCON starts on Friday, and we leave Thurs
| afternoon at 4:.  So I won't be able to make the meeting.  Sorry
| about that.  No presentatior for me.  That also means Brock is
| probably going to do his presentation without me, and I wanted to 
| see that.  I did an ICFP contest entry as a presentation along 
| time ago... the code style I descended into under the pressure
| was quite odd, and I've grown to start looking at more projects
| as ICFP contests.  The whole experience was really good for me as
| a programmer.  So, next year, Phoenix.PM is entering as a team.
| We can use my house as HQ.  I've got a coffee pot and some good
| quality coffee, and I'll stock Jolt (which looks like they're
| going after the energy drink market:
| http://www.joltcola.com/p2.html ).  There's a futon on the 
| private, covered patio and a guest room.  That would *rule*.
| Heh, heh heh heh. 
| 
| Anyway, sorry I can't make it, or present, this time...
| 
| -scott
| 
| On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > 
| > Yeah, I'll hit the ICFP topic or something related to that code another
| > time.
| > 
| > Regarding the wifi available at the library -- I was just reading up on
| > it and it isn't as "open" as I might like. The only allowed outgoing
| > traffic is though a "filtered" (do they mean _content_ filter? ew)
| > port-80 proxy. So set up your work-arounds ahead of time if you need any
| > :)
| > 
| >   * http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/atmylibrary/wireless.htm
| > 
| > --Brock
| > 
| > On 2005.07.22.16.43, Scott Walters wrote:
| > | Okay, I'll get to work then! I'll make it short - 15 or 30 minutes. 
| > | I'll get back to the list when I figure out exactly what Perl 6 related
| > | thing I'm going to talk about, but it'll probably go one of two directions.
| > | 
| > | Brock, why don't you plan on doing your ICFP entry presentation next time?
| > | I'm afraid I'm going to forget about a presentation... that would be bad.
| > | 
| > | -scott
| > | 
| > | 
| > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
| > | > 
| > | > OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
| > | > so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
| > | > reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
| > | > happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
| > | > 
| > | > Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
| > | > whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
| > | > 
| > | > Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
| > | > bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
| > | > random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
| > | > knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
| > | > discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
| > | > but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.
| > | > 
| > | > To recap --
| > | > 
| > | > Phoenix.pm Meeting
| > | > Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
| > | > Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
| > | > Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
| > | >           3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
| > | >           Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
| > | >           http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
| > | > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1
| > | > 
| > | > See you there!
| > | > --Brock
| > | > 
| > | > > I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
| > | > > good
| > | > > idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
| > | > > sorry),
| > | > > and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
| > | > > with
| > | > > having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
| > | > > time they
| > | > > want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
| > | > >
| > | > > -scott
| > | > >
| > | > > On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
| > | > >>
| > | > >>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
| > | > >>    list of who is presenting.
| > | > >>
| > | > >>    **********************************************************************
| > | > >>    The information contained in this communication is
| > | > >>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
| > | > >>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
| > | > >>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
| > | > >>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
| > | > >>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
| > | > >>    prohibited.
| > | > >>    If you have received this communication in error,
| > | > >>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
| > | > >>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
| > | > >>    computer system. Thank You.
| > | > >
| > | > >> _______________________________________________
| > | > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > | > > _______________________________________________
| > | > > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > 
| > | > 
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
| > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
| > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From scott at illogics.org  Sat Jul 23 20:50:59 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:50:59 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Agenda - meeting on July 28, 2005
In-Reply-To: <20050723234545.GB1334@thelackthereof.org>
References: <B39B7B7D8C8CEA419D0ED45FD7FA4C534B99A6@CWYMSX06.Corp.Acxiom.net>
	<20050722222048.GX5312@illogics.org>
	<49740.208.176.164.130.1122071528.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>
	<20050722234336.GY5312@illogics.org>
	<20050723162101.GA1334@thelackthereof.org>
	<20050723220754.GA5312@illogics.org>
	<20050723234545.GB1334@thelackthereof.org>
Message-ID: <20050724035059.GC5312@illogics.org>

Grr. Went to try to get the files from the site, and auth.perl.org
is buggered, at least for my account.  There's a proxy that's
getting the connection closed on POST from the server it stands
in front of.  auth.perl.org works only very infrequently, in my
experience.  I'll try again later.

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> No problem. We'll miss you, but have fun at DEFCON.
> 
> I'm down with the Phoenix.PM ICFP for next year (or other random
> contests that we find or make up, as life permits. Its not every weekend
> I can take a day off of work and not sleep :) ).
> 
> So I'll prepare some material on the topic.
> 
> I'm happy to hear they are only content-filtering port 80 so I can ssh
> into my box. Maybes me a happy Brock.
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2005.07.23.15.07, Scott Walters wrote:
> | Eeek... okay, I guess DEFCON starts on Friday, and we leave Thurs
> | afternoon at 4:.  So I won't be able to make the meeting.  Sorry
> | about that.  No presentatior for me.  That also means Brock is
> | probably going to do his presentation without me, and I wanted to 
> | see that.  I did an ICFP contest entry as a presentation along 
> | time ago... the code style I descended into under the pressure
> | was quite odd, and I've grown to start looking at more projects
> | as ICFP contests.  The whole experience was really good for me as
> | a programmer.  So, next year, Phoenix.PM is entering as a team.
> | We can use my house as HQ.  I've got a coffee pot and some good
> | quality coffee, and I'll stock Jolt (which looks like they're
> | going after the energy drink market:
> | http://www.joltcola.com/p2.html ).  There's a futon on the 
> | private, covered patio and a guest room.  That would *rule*.
> | Heh, heh heh heh. 
> | 
> | Anyway, sorry I can't make it, or present, this time...
> | 
> | -scott
> | 
> | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > 
> | > Yeah, I'll hit the ICFP topic or something related to that code another
> | > time.
> | > 
> | > Regarding the wifi available at the library -- I was just reading up on
> | > it and it isn't as "open" as I might like. The only allowed outgoing
> | > traffic is though a "filtered" (do they mean _content_ filter? ew)
> | > port-80 proxy. So set up your work-arounds ahead of time if you need any
> | > :)
> | > 
> | >   * http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/atmylibrary/wireless.htm
> | > 
> | > --Brock
> | > 
> | > On 2005.07.22.16.43, Scott Walters wrote:
> | > | Okay, I'll get to work then! I'll make it short - 15 or 30 minutes. 
> | > | I'll get back to the list when I figure out exactly what Perl 6 related
> | > | thing I'm going to talk about, but it'll probably go one of two directions.
> | > | 
> | > | Brock, why don't you plan on doing your ICFP entry presentation next time?
> | > | I'm afraid I'm going to forget about a presentation... that would be bad.
> | > | 
> | > | -scott
> | > | 
> | > | 
> | > | On  0, Brock <awwaiid at thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> | > | > 
> | > | > OK, by my count we have 6 or 7 RSVPs, and there are always some straglers,
> | > | > so we're going to go ahead and use the library room (which I've already
> | > | > reserved anyway). It'll be a good test of the facilities too (I am still
> | > | > happy to hear about other ideas for locations, btw).
> | > | > 
> | > | > Main topics will be Perl6, lead by Scott (you can do Perl6::Contexts or
> | > | > whatever you like!), and Andrew will talk about POD.
> | > | > 
> | > | > Secondary topics proposed were Perl Best Practices, and I wanted to talk a
> | > | > bit about this year's ICFP contest. I'm not qualified to present more than
> | > | > random tidbits on Perl Best Practices, so perhaps using collective
> | > | > knowledge we can banter that around a bit after the POD and Perl6
> | > | > discussions. O'Reilly is sending us a copy of Perl Best Practices, btw,
> | > | > but I don't think it'll get here in time for this meeting.
> | > | > 
> | > | > To recap --
> | > | > 
> | > | > Phoenix.pm Meeting
> | > | > Topics: POD, Perl6(::Contexts)?, Perl Best Practices
> | > | > Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
> | > | > Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Silver Room
> | > | >           3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
> | > | >           Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
> | > | >           http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
> | > | > Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1
> | > | > 
> | > | > See you there!
> | > | > --Brock
> | > | > 
> | > | > > I'm going to let Brock do the decision making, but as a recap, POD is a
> | > | > > good
> | > | > > idea, someone else offered to do something (I forget just what, I'm
> | > | > > sorry),
> | > | > > and there are a few votes of Perl 6 related stuff.  I see nothing wrong
> | > | > > with
> | > | > > having three presentations, assuming the presenters can decide how much
> | > | > > time they
> | > | > > want to be clamped down to and someone has a stopwatch.
> | > | > >
> | > | > > -scott
> | > | > >
> | > | > > On  0, Frooninckx Craig - cfroon <Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com> wrote:
> | > | > >>
> | > | > >>    Hi guys,  just curious if we have an agenda for next Thursday and a
> | > | > >>    list of who is presenting.
> | > | > >>
> | > | > >>    **********************************************************************
> | > | > >>    The information contained in this communication is
> | > | > >>    confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
> | > | > >>    named above, and may be legally privileged.
> | > | > >>    If the reader of this message is not the intended
> | > | > >>    recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> | > | > >>    distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
> | > | > >>    prohibited.
> | > | > >>    If you have received this communication in error,
> | > | > >>    please re-send this communication to the sender and
> | > | > >>    delete the original message or any copy of it from your
> | > | > >>    computer system. Thank You.
> | > | > >
> | > | > >> _______________________________________________
> | > | > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > >> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > | > > _______________________________________________
> | > | > > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> | > | > >
> | > | > >
> | > | > 
> | > | > 
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> | > | > Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> | > | > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Mon Jul 25 14:51:25 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:51:25 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] For those not yet wanting to buy the Perl Best
	Practices book
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733672056A3@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

I'm sure most of you diehards have already run across this, but just in case you haven't and you need to wet your whistle on-line before purchasing...here's "Ten Essential Development Practices" from the new Perl Best Practices book.

http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/07/14/bestpractices.htm

Bobby

From scott at illogics.org  Mon Jul 25 15:00:05 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:00:05 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] For those not yet wanting to buy the Perl Best
	Practices book
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733672056A3@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733672056A3@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20050725220004.GQ5312@illogics.org>

.html, you mean?

-scott

On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:
> I'm sure most of you diehards have already run across this, but just in case you haven't and you need to wet your whistle on-line before purchasing...here's "Ten Essential Development Practices" from the new Perl Best Practices book.
> 
> http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/07/14/bestpractices.htm
> 
> Bobby
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Mon Jul 25 15:32:48 2005
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:32:48 -0500
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] For those not yet wanting to buy the Perl Best
	Practices book
Message-ID: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733672056D1@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>

Yep, my bad.  Had it up on my other system and typed it in.

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott at illogics.org]
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 3:00 PM
To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS
Cc: phoenix-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] For those not yet wanting to buy the Perl Best
Practices book


.html, you mean?

-scott

On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz at att.com> wrote:
> I'm sure most of you diehards have already run across this, but just
in case you haven't and you need to wet your whistle on-line before
purchasing...here's "Ten Essential Development Practices" from the new
Perl Best Practices book.
> 
> http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/07/14/bestpractices.htm
> 
> Bobby
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Jul 26 14:59:47 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:59:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] For those not yet wanting to buy the Perl Best
 Practices book
In-Reply-To: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733672056A3@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <01D5341D04A2E64AB9B34576904733672056A3@OCCLUST01EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <35307.208.176.164.130.1122415187.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>


(my email is weird atm so forgive me if someone already replied to this
and I missed it)

I found it at http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/07/14/bestpractices.html

Nice :). Just two more days till meeting time!!

--Brock

> I'm sure most of you diehards have already run across this, but just in
> case you haven't and you need to wet your whistle on-line before
> purchasing...here's "Ten Essential Development Practices" from the new
> Perl Best Practices book.
>
> http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/07/14/bestpractices.htm
>
> Bobby
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>
>



From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu  Tue Jul 26 16:10:00 2005
From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:10:00 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] DBD/DynaLoader question
Message-ID: <e624b89ce8f2a073c48ede9f5c035b6d@highwire.stanford.edu>

Help?

I've installed DBI and DBD::Sybase, made sure everything can compile, 
and even tested it. So I know the modules are working. The only problem 
is that the module requires a certain order of directories in the 
LD_LIBRARY_PATH and I can't seem to set that automatically. (This is on 
Solaris.)

I have the ENV setting code as follows. It works fine and sets the 
environment for the script properly.
BEGIN
{
	if ($ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH})
	{
			$ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH} = '/opt/sybase/lib:' . $ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH};
	}
	else
	{
		$ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH} = '/opt/sybase/lib';
	}
	$ENV{SYBASE} = '/opt/sybase';	
}

What I don't have is the place to put it. I've put it in my script, in 
my shared module, even in DBD::Sybase.pm itself! When I try to even 
load DBD::Sybase, it always acts as if the LD_LIBRARY_PATH was not set 
properly. It seems to be loading in the Sybase.so file before it runs 
the BEGIN block in DBD::Sybase itself. I don't know anything about the 
DynaLoader, so I'm not sure if it's safe to try inserting the code 
there -- or even where "there" is.

Anyone have any experience with DynaLoader and any thoughts that might 
help?

Thanks much!
-- Mike
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
---------------------------------------------------------------------


From scott at illogics.org  Wed Jul 27 01:20:45 2005
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:20:45 -0700
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] DBD/DynaLoader question
In-Reply-To: <e624b89ce8f2a073c48ede9f5c035b6d@highwire.stanford.edu>
References: <e624b89ce8f2a073c48ede9f5c035b6d@highwire.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20050727082044.GT5312@illogics.org>

Hi Michael,

I'm guessing LD_LIBRARY_PATH needs to be set before the Perl process
is created.  The behavior you're seeing is that of the dlopen() Unix
system call itself.  But I've never tried munging anything that ELF
uses -- I've only banged maybe PATH and one or two other things.  I
guess I kind of exected LD_LIBRARY_PATH would be copied and cached
at process start-up.

I'm confused -- you say this works fine, but then you say no matter 
where you put it, it acts as if LD_LIBRARY_PATH wasn't set 
property.  You mean it works fine if you do this from the shell
but not fine if you do it from within the program?

  #!/bin/sh
  export LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/opt/sybase/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH"
  exec /usr/bin/perl
  print qq{Hi! $ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH}\n};

But that's fugly ;)

It might be easier to just insert /opt/sybase/lib into the top of
/etc/ld.so.conf and run ldconfig.  

You can build the module list into Perl, in which case modules
configure themselves with the same information.  I think that's
the prompt that looks like:

  Directories to use for library searches? [/usr/local/lib /lib /usr/lib]

But you can also plug libraries into ExtUtils::MakeMaker based 
Makefile.PL's.  From the ExtUtils::MakeMaker man page:

       LIBS
         An anonymous array of alternative library specifications to be searched for (in order) until at least one library
         is found. E.g.

           'LIBS' => ["-lgdbm", "-ldbm -lfoo", "-L/path -ldbm.nfs"]

         Mind, that any element of the array contains a complete set of arguments for the ld command. So do not specify

           'LIBS' => ["-ltcl", "-ltk", "-lX11"]

         See ODBM_File/Makefile.PL for an example, where an array is needed. If you specify a scalar as in

           'LIBS' => "-ltcl -ltk -lX11"

You'd need to edit the Makefile.PL and cram something of this format into there,
such as LIBS => '-L/opt/sybase/lib'.  That might not make it the first library
searched, though.

A lot of this is guess work taken from vague memories.  I hope it doesn't
induce more confusion than it clears up. 

Good luck!
-scott 


On  0, Michael Friedman <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Help?
> 
> I've installed DBI and DBD::Sybase, made sure everything can compile, 
> and even tested it. So I know the modules are working. The only problem 
> is that the module requires a certain order of directories in the 
> LD_LIBRARY_PATH and I can't seem to set that automatically. (This is on 
> Solaris.)
> 
> I have the ENV setting code as follows. It works fine and sets the 
> environment for the script properly.
> BEGIN
> {
> 	if ($ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH})
> 	{
> 			$ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH} = '/opt/sybase/lib:' . $ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH};
> 	}
> 	else
> 	{
> 		$ENV{LD_LIBRARY_PATH} = '/opt/sybase/lib';
> 	}
> 	$ENV{SYBASE} = '/opt/sybase';	
> }
> 
> What I don't have is the place to put it. I've put it in my script, in 
> my shared module, even in DBD::Sybase.pm itself! When I try to even 
> load DBD::Sybase, it always acts as if the LD_LIBRARY_PATH was not set 
> properly. It seems to be loading in the Sybase.so file before it runs 
> the BEGIN block in DBD::Sybase itself. I don't know anything about the 
> DynaLoader, so I'm not sure if it's safe to try inserting the code 
> there -- or even where "there" is.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with DynaLoader and any thoughts that might 
> help?
> 
> Thanks much!
> -- Mike
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Friedman                  HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest
> Phone: 480-456-0880                                   Tempe, Arizona
> FAX:   270-721-8034                  <friedman at highwire.stanford.edu>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Thu Jul 28 12:03:18 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:03:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting Reminder - meeting on 2005-07-28
Message-ID: <34989.208.176.164.130.1122577398.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>


Just a reminder. Oh, and it is the _Gold_Room_, not whatever it was I told
you before (which I won't repeat because that will just increase the odds
of confusion!). Oh... and bring your laptops (and vnc clients perhaps)
because it looks like we won't have a projector (or bring a projector).
But we will have wireless. We'll deal. We will have a whiteboard too. I
love whiteboards.

See you there tonight,
--Brock

Phoenix.pm Meeting
Topics: POD, Perl Best Practices, ICFP programming techniques
Time: July 28, 2005 @7:00pm
Location: Scottsdale Public Library, Civic Center, Gold Room
          3839 N. Drinkwater Blvd.
          Scottsdale, AZ 85251-4467
          http://library.scottsdaleaz.gov/
Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=library+civic+center+scottsdale,+az&num=1




From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Fri Jul 29 08:28:08 2005
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:28:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting wrapup - meeting on 2005-07-28
Message-ID: <38175.208.176.164.130.1122650888.squirrel@ssl.epfarms.org>


Yesterday we met at the Scottsdale Civic Center Library, which seems like
a good location. We had 9 PerlPeople (PodPeople? hmm) and two main topics.

First I talked about the ICFP contest (http://icfpc.plt-scheme.org/) and
some useful tools and techniques for attacking it with Perl
(Parse::RecDescent and Graph.pm were mentioned). Oh, and I tortured
everyone with my love of whiteboardness!

Andy then taught us the fundamentals of POD, and encouraged us to use it
to document all of our Perl code. Andy, you wanna post those slides
somewhere for us?

When Scott gets back we can pester him more about getting our wiki back so
that I can post these meeting summaries to there :). Since the mailing
list volume has increased as of late (and I like it!) we'll be sure to get
the site going so that important information such as meeting times will be
easy to find, not getting drowned out in the other interesting
discussions.

--Brock