From scott at illogics.org Wed Jun 2 02:55:15 2004 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Programmer Needed Message-ID: <20040602075514.GA120@illogics.org> http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/blog/code/PeriodicTable.html - if you haven't seen that. It even made Slashdot. Re: the job posts of late, super cool! Does anyone know if these are being filled? More specifically, has anyone signed on for a new job and has just been too modest to broadcast the fact to the list for us all to gossip about? -scott On 0, Scott Wessels wrote: > > Greetings all, > > My company, USGN (www.usglobal.net), is seeking a programmer proficient in > the mysteries of Perl. If you are a guru, or just know some good voodoo, > please contact me with a resume and if possible code samples. > > Regards, > Scott Wessels > CTO > USGN > (602) 745 2492 Office > (480) 330 4084 Cell > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From billn at billn.net Wed Jun 2 13:35:52 2004 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Programmer Needed In-Reply-To: <20040602075514.GA120@illogics.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Scott Walters wrote: > Re: the job posts of late, super cool! Does anyone know if these are > being filled? More specifically, has anyone signed on for a new job > and has just been too modest to broadcast the fact to the list for > us all to gossip about? > I took a perl job that was posted to a local list. I just won't say where because some of us have stalkers. =) - billn From perlguy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 2 13:20:51 2004 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 06/03/2004 Message-ID: <40BE1A83.2070801@earthlink.net> Please RSVP... We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, June 3rd at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. Tim will be talking about Perl command line parameters. We'll have some door prizes, and I may also present if there is time. P.S. Sorry about the broadcast, but the list still doesn't seem to be working. Scott, let's talk. :) From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Wed Jun 2 13:34:22 2004 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 06/03/2004 In-Reply-To: <40BE1A83.2070801@earthlink.net> References: <40BE1A83.2070801@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <774BDC0D-B4C3-11D8-BEB8-000A956CAA2C@highwire.stanford.edu> I'm going to miss door prizes? Dang! Sorry, I'm in California and won't be able to make it. :-( Have fun, -- Mike On Jun 2, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Douglas E. Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, June 3rd at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > > Tim will be talking about Perl command line parameters. We'll have > some > door prizes, and I may also present if there is time. > > P.S. Sorry about the broadcast, but the list still doesn't seem to be > working. Scott, let's talk. :) > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com Wed Jun 2 15:11:49 2004 From: jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com (Jason Riedel) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 06/03/2004 References: <40BE1A83.2070801@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <014c01c448dd$e837a670$53d31eac@corp.cableone.net> I should be there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas E. Miles" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:20 AM Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 06/03/2004 > Please RSVP... > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, June 3rd at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > > Tim will be talking about Perl command line parameters. We'll have some > door prizes, and I may also present if there is time. > > P.S. Sorry about the broadcast, but the list still doesn't seem to be > working. Scott, let's talk. :) > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From bwmetz at att.com Wed Jun 2 16:15:53 2004 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 06/03/2004 Message-ID: <456FD0E7B215B24ABBAD711614E4A7A2088C20A1@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> I hope to be there as well. Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org]On Behalf Of Douglas E. Miles Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:21 AM To: Phoenix-pm@pm.org Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 06/03/2004 Please RSVP... We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, June 3rd at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. Tim will be talking about Perl command line parameters. We'll have some door prizes, and I may also present if there is time. P.S. Sorry about the broadcast, but the list still doesn't seem to be working. Scott, let's talk. :) _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm@pm.org http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From intertwingled at qwest.net Wed Jun 2 14:06:35 2004 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (Anthony Nemmer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Programmer Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40BE253B.6070609@qwest.net> What kind of stalks we talking about? Corn? Bamboo? Rhubarb, perhaps? Bill Nash wrote: >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Scott Walters wrote: > > > >>Re: the job posts of late, super cool! Does anyone know if these are >>being filled? More specifically, has anyone signed on for a new job >>and has just been too modest to broadcast the fact to the list for >>us all to gossip about? >> >> >> > >I took a perl job that was posted to a local list. I just won't say where >because some of us have stalkers. =) > >- billn > >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm@pm.org >http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > -- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER. From intertwingled at qwest.net Wed Jun 2 14:09:14 2004 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (Anthony Nemmer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Programmer Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40BE25DA.4090209@qwest.net> Wait... CELERY STALKS! =D Bill Nash wrote: >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Scott Walters wrote: > > > >>Re: the job posts of late, super cool! Does anyone know if these are >>being filled? More specifically, has anyone signed on for a new job >>and has just been too modest to broadcast the fact to the list for >>us all to gossip about? >> >> >> > >I took a perl job that was posted to a local list. I just won't say where >because some of us have stalkers. =) > >- billn > >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm@pm.org >http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > -- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER. From billn at billn.net Wed Jun 2 14:41:59 2004 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Perl Programmer Needed In-Reply-To: <40BE253B.6070609@qwest.net> Message-ID: Case in point, the self-medicated kind. - billn On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Anthony Nemmer wrote: > What kind of stalks we talking about? Corn? Bamboo? Rhubarb, perhaps? > > Bill Nash wrote: > > >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > > > >>Re: the job posts of late, super cool! Does anyone know if these are > >>being filled? More specifically, has anyone signed on for a new job > >>and has just been too modest to broadcast the fact to the list for > >>us all to gossip about? > >> > >> > >> > > > >I took a perl job that was posted to a local list. I just won't say where > >because some of us have stalkers. =) > > > >- billn > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Phoenix-pm mailing list > >Phoenix-pm@pm.org > >http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER. > > From scott at illogics.org Thu Jun 3 11:12:42 2004 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Re: Peter Scott Perl Class in Phoenix. Message-ID: <20040603161241.GG120@illogics.org> Ahhh. Okey. It all makes sense now. Sorry for guarded reaction - I get a flood of Perl related spam every time I post to jobs.perl.org. Bizarre, I know. Let me cc this to the list. Do you have any pointers to resources describing the course I could send them? And is this dollar amount the amount you're asking Phoenix Perl Mongers to pony up, or is it the total cost that you're trying to split somehow? Thanks for your reply, and feel free to poll me on this in the future - again, I'm not the most organized person ;) -scott On 0, Bill_Fields@azb.uscourts.gov wrote: > > I think I got your email address from either the Phoenix Perl Mongers > website, or the Phoenix PHP website. Anyway, the Bankruptcy Court in > Phoenix (my office) will be bringing in Peter Scott for a 5 day training > class and we're trying to spread the cost as much as we can (budgets have > been slashed over the last couple years). Sorry, I didn't have time to put > a proper proposal together and I thought the name would have more > recognition. > > Please disregard if you have no interest and I'll not bother you again. > > Bill > > > > > > Scott Walters > rg> To > Bill_Fields@azb.uscourts.gov > 06/03/2004 12:18 cc > AM > Subject > Re: Peter Scott Perl Class in > Phoenix. > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > I'm having a hard time processing this one - it kind of came out of the > blue, I don't recognize the name off hand, but then again the Received > header jives with the email address. > > Received: from lsmav1i.gtwy.uscourts.gov (lsmav1i.gtwy.uscourts.gov > [208.27.203.30]) > > Could you please tell me where you got my email address, of which the > organizations I'm involved in that your making this proposal for, and where > I should know the name "Peter Scott" from? Oh, wait, that's the _Perl > Medic_ > guy. If this is the case, you might want to mention that in emails. > And what is your relationship? And for heaven's sake, why are you emailing > from work? > > I'm not very organized, and low context emails make me painfully aware > of matters ;) > > Thanks, > -scott > > On 0, Bill_Fields@azb.uscourts.gov wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > I was wondering if there would be interest from any of your members in a > 5 > > day training class conducted by Peter Scott? The cost would be around > $600 > > total for the 5 days and we have only 7 seats available. The class would > be > > held the week of June 28th in our training center at Thomas and Central. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Bill Fields > > Developer > > United States Bankruptcy Court > > Phoenix, AZ > > > > From scott at illogics.org Tue Jun 8 13:48:44 2004 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [: [phxjug-announce] Tomorrow's Meeting - Discussion on Velocity] Message-ID: <20040608184844.GW120@illogics.org> This sounds really interested - embedded Java in robotics using stamp sized controllers >=) -scott ----- Forwarded message from ----- List: archive/latest/226 ID: <4534.63.110.36.216.1086719372.squirrel@mail.ellermann.net> <"NPldd.A.-pG.njgxAB"@lucky> Encoding: 8bit Loop: announce@phxjug.org Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Spam-Index: -3.528 Filter-Rule: Importance: Normal Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 Received: from lucky.phxjug.org (www.phxjug.org [216.19.223.7]) (from lists@localhost) Subject: [phxjug-announce] Tomorrow's Meeting - Discussion on Velocity Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:43:52 -0700 (MST) Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:29:32 -0700 (MST) Sender: announce-request@phxjug.org Version: 1.0 Precedence: list To: announce@phxjug.org Priority: 3 From: todd@ellermann.net announce@phxjug.org Meeting Announcement Phoenix Java User's Group http://www.phxjug.org Please attend and bring a friend! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Wed, June, 9, 2004 at 6:30 PM UACT - University of Advancing Computer Technology 2625 West Baseline Road, Tempe (Just west of Fry's Electronics, south side of Baseline) The meeting will be held in the first floor theater. There is plenty of free parking. * Raffle -- TBA! * Post-meeting gathering at Aunt Chilada's with free beer and delicious Mexican food. * Special Thanks to Unicon for Stepping up Last minute!!! Sponsored by Unicon: www.unicon.net Contact Kyle Thornton -- kthornton@unicon.net -- 480.926.2368 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Keynote Speaker Keynote: Title: Velocity Templating Overview Speaker: Gary Gilbert - Unicon Software Engineer Abstract: Various Java templating strategies and toolsets are available today for adoption by Java application development teams. Examples of templating systems include: WebMacro, Tea, FreeMarker, and Velocity. This presentation will introduce Velocity through code samples, a production implementation example and provide guidelines/recommendations for when Velocity may be a fit for your application. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Real-World Speaker Name: Mr. Jeffrey Peacock Title: Independent Consultant Email: jeffp@jeffreypeacock.com Phone: 480.326.3046 Real-World title: Javelins and Robots Abstract: Embedded Java: Chips, Javelins and Robots It is well known that Java technology controls the Mars Rovers Spirit and Opportunity. This talk discusses an embedded, single chip, Java VM called the Javelin (from Parallax), which is useful for controlling robots. Robot demo included. Speaker Bio: Jeffrey Peacock is a 23-year veteran of Software Application Development. Early in his career he spent 6 intense years working for AT&T Bell Laboratories developing an Object Oriented language (similar to Sun's Java), an Object database, Object Oriented development/lifecycle tools, and UNIX System OS development. He's worked on various projects with Sun Microsystems, HP, AT&T and US West, including leadership positions in design and development of Hierarchical Storage Management, Interactive Cable, E-Commerce, Multi-Tier Web, and Medical Practice Management applications. He has been working with Java since 1995, J2EE since 1998, and J2ME since 2000. He is also a trained EMT, CPR/1st-AID instructor, SCUBA instructor, and instrument rated pilot. He is currently working as a consultant providing project management guidance and architectural analysis, and developing handheld applications for Palm devices utilizing J2ME. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Todd R. Ellermann President, Phoenix Java User's Group Senior Solution Architect ForeverLiving.com, LLC. 602.738.6187 president@phxjug.org www.phxjug.org -- To unsubscribe, send a message to announce-request@phxjug.org with "unsubscribe" in the *subject line*. If you have problems, send a message to 'listmaster@phxjug.org'. ----- End forwarded message ----- From perlguy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 21:13:42 2004 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] New mailing list address Message-ID: <40C7C3D6.9050207@earthlink.net> All, Be sure you use the new mailing address for the mailing list: phoenix-pm@pm.org The old address still works, but your message will be kicked into the moderation bin, and I don't monitor that frequently. Your message may take a while to get through. From bwmetz at att.com Thu Jun 10 10:59:44 2004 From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [: [phxjug-announce] Tomorrow's Meeting - Discussionon Velocity] Message-ID: <456FD0E7B215B24ABBAD711614E4A7A208A4C978@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com> Did you know that according to Sun, the latest Mars rovers run on Java code, or at least one of their many systems does? Bobby -----Original Message----- From: phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 11:49 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: [Phoenix-pm] [: [phxjug-announce] Tomorrow's Meeting - Discussionon Velocity] This sounds really interested - embedded Java in robotics using stamp sized controllers >=) -scott ----- Forwarded message from ----- List: archive/latest/226 ID: <4534.63.110.36.216.1086719372.squirrel@mail.ellermann.net> <"NPldd.A.-pG.njgxAB"@lucky> Encoding: 8bit Loop: announce@phxjug.org Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Spam-Index: -3.528 Filter-Rule: Importance: Normal Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 Received: from lucky.phxjug.org (www.phxjug.org [216.19.223.7]) (from lists@localhost) Subject: [phxjug-announce] Tomorrow's Meeting - Discussion on Velocity Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:43:52 -0700 (MST) Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:29:32 -0700 (MST) Sender: announce-request@phxjug.org Version: 1.0 Precedence: list To: announce@phxjug.org Priority: 3 From: todd@ellermann.net announce@phxjug.org Meeting Announcement Phoenix Java User's Group http://www.phxjug.org Please attend and bring a friend! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Wed, June, 9, 2004 at 6:30 PM UACT - University of Advancing Computer Technology 2625 West Baseline Road, Tempe (Just west of Fry's Electronics, south side of Baseline) The meeting will be held in the first floor theater. There is plenty of free parking. * Raffle -- TBA! * Post-meeting gathering at Aunt Chilada's with free beer and delicious Mexican food. * Special Thanks to Unicon for Stepping up Last minute!!! Sponsored by Unicon: www.unicon.net Contact Kyle Thornton -- kthornton@unicon.net -- 480.926.2368 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Keynote Speaker Keynote: Title: Velocity Templating Overview Speaker: Gary Gilbert - Unicon Software Engineer Abstract: Various Java templating strategies and toolsets are available today for adoption by Java application development teams. Examples of templating systems include: WebMacro, Tea, FreeMarker, and Velocity. This presentation will introduce Velocity through code samples, a production implementation example and provide guidelines/recommendations for when Velocity may be a fit for your application. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Real-World Speaker Name: Mr. Jeffrey Peacock Title: Independent Consultant Email: jeffp@jeffreypeacock.com Phone: 480.326.3046 Real-World title: Javelins and Robots Abstract: Embedded Java: Chips, Javelins and Robots It is well known that Java technology controls the Mars Rovers Spirit and Opportunity. This talk discusses an embedded, single chip, Java VM called the Javelin (from Parallax), which is useful for controlling robots. Robot demo included. Speaker Bio: Jeffrey Peacock is a 23-year veteran of Software Application Development. Early in his career he spent 6 intense years working for AT&T Bell Laboratories developing an Object Oriented language (similar to Sun's Java), an Object database, Object Oriented development/lifecycle tools, and UNIX System OS development. He's worked on various projects with Sun Microsystems, HP, AT&T and US West, including leadership positions in design and development of Hierarchical Storage Management, Interactive Cable, E-Commerce, Multi-Tier Web, and Medical Practice Management applications. He has been working with Java since 1995, J2EE since 1998, and J2ME since 2000. He is also a trained EMT, CPR/1st-AID instructor, SCUBA instructor, and instrument rated pilot. He is currently working as a consultant providing project management guidance and architectural analysis, and developing handheld applications for Palm devices utilizing J2ME. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Todd R. Ellermann President, Phoenix Java User's Group Senior Solution Architect ForeverLiving.com, LLC. 602.738.6187 president@phxjug.org www.phxjug.org -- To unsubscribe, send a message to announce-request@phxjug.org with "unsubscribe" in the *subject line*. If you have problems, send a message to 'listmaster@phxjug.org'. ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ Phoenix-pm mailing list Phoenix-pm@pm.org http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From perlguy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 16 16:30:57 2004 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting next month Message-ID: <40D0BC11.1070106@earthlink.net> I'll be on vacation, so I won't be able to schedule a meeting next month. If someone else want to, feel free. From cakrum at cox.net Fri Jun 18 21:38:59 2004 From: cakrum at cox.net (Chris Krum) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] UI Builder in Perl Message-ID: I'm looking for a drag&drop UI builder for wxPerl that's written in Perl. Any such animal out there? I've seen wxGlade and others that can DO wxPerl but they're written in Python etc. so if I want to make changes I'll have to learn a new language. Barring the existence of an established project, would it be a worthwhile endeavour to start my own? Thanks, Chris. From scott at illogics.org Fri Jun 18 22:02:39 2004 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] UI Builder in Perl Message-ID: <20040619030239.GW120@illogics.org> Hi Chris, I don't know of anything that does this, but I wasn't aware that there was a GUI builder for wx at all. I only knew about Glade. My money is always on integration. To use a near by analogy: There are entirely too many windowing toolkits out there.. Tk, Gtk, wx, Prima, X11::Motif, qt... probably some others I'm forgetting. Translating the features of one application into an implementation in another language creates more forks, more code to maintain, more "standards". Tk was widely successful because people wrote bindings for it for Scheme, Python, Perl, and even Java if I'm not mistaken. This was good for Scheme, Python, and Perl (thought the Java camp could care less). This in turn was good for Tk (again). I certainly understand the urge to take out the bulldozer and flatten my workspace before I start writing code, but there is a lot of incentive to resist this uge. Specifically, your energies would be better spent, in my opinion, improving the Perl integration, making it less C-ish and more language netural, improving documentation so that other people don't have to meddle in guts of other languages. This would involve learning Python, but learning new languages is kind of fun and very educational. The Python people did get a few things right. Here's another story. Majordomo is old, crufty, and not that well maintained. It's written in Perl. Mailman is new, and written by a friend of mine who is a security fiend, but it's written in Python. You may have noticed that the mail list changed recently from Majordomo to Mailman after what word of mouth says was a security breech. This, for the Perl users group lists. Outrage? Or wisdom? And another story. PHP has PEAR. Perl has CPAN. CPAN is hugely valuable to Perl and a lot of the success of the language is attributable to the producitivity boost CPAN brings. I'd love to see glue in other languages so that you can use CPAN, much like you can use Inline::Java to get at the AWT from Perl, or use Win32::* to get at the GDI, or use Inline::C to get any any C library. Rather than the PHP camp making any sort of generic glue at all, they decided to reimplement the best parts of CPAN. This probably sounded like a perfectly reasonable idea to them, but you and I, with our understanding of what CPAN is and it's massive scope, find this absurd. I know I do. Okey, end rant. Mind you, I like to argue strongly for things that I don't really feel very strongly about, and just because I have a page full of "reasons" that things should be done one way doesn't mean I won't change my mind in my sleep tonight. So take this all with a grain of salt. It's just my knee jerk reaction. If I tried really hard, I'm sure I could make a convincing argument for rewriting it in Perl too ;) So I hope this is at least food for thought. Cheers, -scott On 0, Chris Krum wrote: > > I'm looking for a drag&drop UI builder for wxPerl that's written in > Perl. Any such animal out there? I've seen wxGlade and others that can > DO wxPerl but they're written in Python etc. so if I want to make > changes I'll have to learn a new language. Barring the existence of an > established project, would it be a worthwhile endeavour to start my > own? > > Thanks, > Chris. > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From cakrum at cox.net Sun Jun 20 21:04:58 2004 From: cakrum at cox.net (Chris Krum) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] UI Builder in Perl In-Reply-To: <20040619030239.GW120@illogics.org> References: <20040619030239.GW120@illogics.org> Message-ID: <6594D898-C327-11D8-A61E-000A958ED2FE@cox.net> Funny, I've been lurking on this list for some time now and I've never seen you show any propensity for argumentation. ;-) You always seem so quiet and reserved. But seriously. What do you mean by "improving the Perl integration"? Are you referring to the integration of Perl and Wx or the ability of wxGlade to generate Perl code? I guess the thing I have against tools written in one language generating code in another is that something is always lost in translation. Like the saying goes "Nothing does perl like perl." Take the new perl plug-in for Eclipse. Great idea, but I would imagine that there is a lot of perl syntax that a Java framework won't be able to deal with. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that anyone using Eclipse to write perl code will need to avoid most of the more interesting syntactic sugar because Java won't know what to do with it. And that brings me to another of your points. The idea of "glue in other languages" to allow them to use perl code sounds good, but I don't think anything short of embedding a full perl interpreter is going to work. I don't imagine that's what you had in mind. Are you aware of any languages that have actually embedded perl? I seem to remember that M$ promised that the CRL would allow you to run any language but that when someone tried to create an interpreter for perl they had trouble with the fact that it was dynamically typed. No rant intended. Just juxtaposing myself. (And man did it hurt!) Anyway, all I'm really looking for is a perl project to help me keep my experience up. I almost never get to write in perl anymore. Well, thanks for listening. Chris. On Jun 18, 2004, at 8:02 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I don't know of anything that does this, but I wasn't aware that there > was > a GUI builder for wx at all. I only knew about Glade. > > My money is always on integration. To use a near by analogy: There are > entirely > too many windowing toolkits out there.. Tk, Gtk, wx, Prima, X11::Motif, > qt... probably some others I'm forgetting. Translating the > features of one application into an implementation in another > language creates more forks, more code to maintain, more "standards". > Tk was widely successful because people wrote bindings for > it for Scheme, Python, Perl, and even Java if I'm not mistaken. > This was good for Scheme, Python, and Perl (thought the Java camp > could care less). This in turn was good for Tk (again). > > I certainly understand the urge to take out the bulldozer and > flatten my workspace before I start writing code, but there is a lot > of incentive to resist this uge. > > Specifically, your energies would be better spent, in my > opinion, improving the Perl integration, making it less C-ish and > more language netural, improving documentation so that other people > don't have to meddle in guts of other languages. This would involve > learning Python, but learning new languages is kind of fun and very > educational. The Python people did get a few things right. > > Here's another story. Majordomo is old, crufty, and not that well > maintained. It's written in Perl. Mailman is new, and written by > a friend of mine who is a security fiend, but it's written in Python. > You may have noticed that the mail list changed recently from > Majordomo to Mailman after what word of mouth says was a security > breech. This, for the Perl users group lists. Outrage? Or wisdom? > > And another story. PHP has PEAR. Perl has CPAN. CPAN is hugely > valuable to Perl and a lot of the success of the language is > attributable to the producitivity boost CPAN brings. I'd love to > see glue in other languages so that you can use CPAN, much like > you can use Inline::Java to get at the AWT from Perl, or use > Win32::* to get at the GDI, or use Inline::C to get any any > C library. Rather than the PHP camp making any sort of generic glue at > all, > they decided to reimplement the best parts of CPAN. This probably > sounded > like a perfectly reasonable idea to them, but you and I, with our > understanding > of what CPAN is and it's massive scope, find this absurd. I know I do. > > Okey, end rant. Mind you, I like to argue strongly for things that I > don't really feel very strongly about, and just because I have a > page full of "reasons" that things should be done one way doesn't mean > I won't change my mind in my sleep tonight. So take this all with a > grain > of salt. It's just my knee jerk reaction. If I tried really hard, I'm > sure > I could make a convincing argument for rewriting it in Perl too ;) > So I hope this is at least food for thought. > > Cheers, > -scott > > > On 0, Chris Krum wrote: >> >> I'm looking for a drag&drop UI builder for wxPerl that's written in >> Perl. Any such animal out there? I've seen wxGlade and others that can >> DO wxPerl but they're written in Python etc. so if I want to make >> changes I'll have to learn a new language. Barring the existence of an >> established project, would it be a worthwhile endeavour to start my >> own? >> >> Thanks, >> Chris. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phoenix-pm mailing list >> Phoenix-pm@pm.org >> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > From scott at illogics.org Mon Jun 21 02:42:39 2004 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:05 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] UI Builder in Perl Message-ID: <20040621074239.GY120@illogics.org> On 0, Chris Krum wrote: > > Funny, I've been lurking on this list for some time now and I've never > seen you show any propensity for argumentation. ;-) You always seem so > quiet and reserved. Oh, I have conniptions now and then. I just try really had to keep them few and far between ;) > But seriously. What do you mean by "improving the Perl integration"? > Are you referring to the integration of Perl and Wx or the ability of > wxGlade to generate Perl code? Honestly, I have no idea what I was refering to. This was just a hand waving. > I guess the thing I have against tools written in one language > generating code in another is that something is always lost in > translation. Like the saying goes "Nothing does perl like perl." Take > the new perl plug-in for Eclipse. Great idea, but I would imagine that > there is a lot of perl syntax that a Java framework won't be able to > deal with. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that anyone using Eclipse to > write perl code will need to avoid most of the more interesting > syntactic sugar because Java won't know what to do with it. Interesting example. Perl 6's grammar is written in Perl [56]. Currently Perl 5, ultimately translated to Perl 6, and there is a goal of generating a library from the compiled Perl 6 that syntax highlighting editors can plug into. This design is to cope with the syntax becoming even more heuristic. Even a Java IDE could do a good job with Perl if the interesting bits of Perl were properly exposed. Perl's grammar is a good start. A running Perl program alone knows about it's class heirarchy, so some sort of XS/Perl library to expose this would be helpful. Same for function and method signitures. I have no idea how any of the GUI builders for Perl work - I'd love to learn more about this when I have more time. Slashdot had a book review a while back that looks interesting - "MySQL: Building User Interfaces" - talks about Glade among other things. http://books.slashdot.org/books/04/02/05/1824255.shtml?tid=126&tid=137&tid=156&tid=185&tid=198 But off the top of my head, my impression of Glade is that it generates the user interface as a bunch files that call call-backs in your code, making a sort of compile-link-run thing. If wx does the same thing, making this process interactive would be a worthwhile endeaver. The glue between the wx builder and Perl could be a Perl application with XS that links to the embedded builder, runs a run-loop for the builder's "build a GUI" user interface, takes commands bits of Perl interactively, eval's them inside of a "sub { }", uses B.pm to convert the code reference to a B::CV object using B::svref_2object(), finds the root bytecode, and splices it at the correct point in the running program. When the user is happy with the interfave they've interactively built, B::Deparse could save it as a Perl source code. Or perhaps that's overly complex =) Making it interactive, where people can constantly bounce between working on the GUI and working on the event handlers, would be really nifty. (Or perhaps this already works and I'm just more ignorant than I estimated - if so, I'll try to suggest something else. I love making work for people.). > And that brings me to another of your points. The idea of "glue in > other languages" to allow them to use perl code sounds good, but I > don't think anything short of embedding a full perl interpreter is > going to work. I don't imagine that's what you had in mind. Are you > aware of any languages that have actually embedded perl? I seem to > remember that M$ promised that the CRL would allow you to run any > language but that when someone tried to create an interpreter for perl > they had trouble with the fact that it was dynamically typed. There was an interesting rant, er, paper at javalobby about exactly how language independent the CLR is: http://www.javalobby.org/pdf/clr.pdf One of the conclusions was that the more general a VM is, the more equally bad at everything it is, the CLR is somewhere in the middle. It was designed to do certain things well, to be able to do some things, and completely ignored others. The JVM has the same story but it actually has far more languages running on top of it anyway than the CLR does (though things change): http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de/~tolk/vmlanguages.html In fact, someone started to implement Perl on top of the JVM in a proof of concept. It used a dynamic language layer written for a Scheme-on-Java project. This makes dynamic types and closures possible. Just like Python on the JVM, a large amount of the Perl core would have to be ported to JVM to make this fully operational. Of course, this could be done in Java - Jython itself is written in Java. Speaking of, Python was implemented on top of the CLR (I'll dig up the reference if you're interested). This is one of those "you could, but it would be ugly, but there's a lot of demand, so maybe ugliness is okey" areas. I'm futzing around with compiling Perl 6 back to the Perl 5 VM (I really want a Perl compiler written in Perl - all truely cool languages interpret/compile themselves (Scheme, Forth, C) - and I don't think Perl 6's fate should be tied to Parrot, and I think I could get something beta before Parrot does) so this topic is of particular interest to me =) To address your comment rather than imagining you cared about something I felt like talking about, yes, embed Perl. Perl has been embedded in vi, Apache, Postgres (as a PL language - rock!), and, er, lots of other things (*vigerous hand waving*). Or, alternatively, link Perl to the wx builder using XS, if you can split the code up into application and library parts. If you can split the application up into application and library parts and you don't want to learn XS (scary - I haven't gone there yet), Inline::C kicks ass. > No rant intended. Just juxtaposing myself. (And man did it hurt!) > Anyway, all I'm really looking for is a perl project to help me keep my > experience up. I almost never get to write in perl anymore. One thing I've learned (and I should really start a file of "one thing I learned" since I'm turning into a crotchety, forgetful old bastard) is that my willingness to later maintain something I've written is always near 0, no matter how cool the project seemed going in. I've worked for a year on a project, moved to something else, and the first one has just bitrot. And it was never working as well as I thought. Or the times change faster than it seemed like they ever would. So I've learned to only spend signficiant energies on things that are excedingly fun to work on but I don't mind abandoning, or else work on things that inheritly don't need maitence from me (such as bug fixes to other peoples projects, or significant new features to others people code that other people would be willing to maintain), or else things that other people would happily get involved with and take over if needed (and this last case is extremely rare, dispite the Cathedral and the Bizarre effect on large projects like Linux and Apache - yet this is the model that most people assume when going into a project). So I could translate this as saying that I've learned to submit patches and features to other projects rather than writing my own, or else just write things for fun and make it a quick hack. This repeats what I said in my first email - sorry - but I've had a chance to formalize my thoughts a bit more. (I should have been a priest - I'm a born preacher, and the hours would be shorter and I'd be paid better as a preacher). > Well, thanks for listening. No, thank YOU for listening =) Whatever you do (write this in Perl, hack on the existing code, do something else, do nothing), make sure you have fun. Programming is nothing if it isn't fun. Keep us posted on your progress - if you create something workable, you'll be asked to present ;) -scott > Chris. > > On Jun 18, 2004, at 8:02 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > > > I don't know of anything that does this, but I wasn't aware that there > > was > > a GUI builder for wx at all. I only knew about Glade. > > > > My money is always on integration. To use a near by analogy: There are > > entirely > > too many windowing toolkits out there.. Tk, Gtk, wx, Prima, X11::Motif, > > qt... probably some others I'm forgetting. Translating the > > features of one application into an implementation in another > > language creates more forks, more code to maintain, more "standards". > > Tk was widely successful because people wrote bindings for > > it for Scheme, Python, Perl, and even Java if I'm not mistaken. > > This was good for Scheme, Python, and Perl (thought the Java camp > > could care less). This in turn was good for Tk (again). > > > > I certainly understand the urge to take out the bulldozer and > > flatten my workspace before I start writing code, but there is a lot > > of incentive to resist this uge. > > > > Specifically, your energies would be better spent, in my > > opinion, improving the Perl integration, making it less C-ish and > > more language netural, improving documentation so that other people > > don't have to meddle in guts of other languages. This would involve > > learning Python, but learning new languages is kind of fun and very > > educational. The Python people did get a few things right. > > > > Here's another story. Majordomo is old, crufty, and not that well > > maintained. It's written in Perl. Mailman is new, and written by > > a friend of mine who is a security fiend, but it's written in Python. > > You may have noticed that the mail list changed recently from > > Majordomo to Mailman after what word of mouth says was a security > > breech. This, for the Perl users group lists. Outrage? Or wisdom? > > > > And another story. PHP has PEAR. Perl has CPAN. CPAN is hugely > > valuable to Perl and a lot of the success of the language is > > attributable to the producitivity boost CPAN brings. I'd love to > > see glue in other languages so that you can use CPAN, much like > > you can use Inline::Java to get at the AWT from Perl, or use > > Win32::* to get at the GDI, or use Inline::C to get any any > > C library. Rather than the PHP camp making any sort of generic glue at > > all, > > they decided to reimplement the best parts of CPAN. This probably > > sounded > > like a perfectly reasonable idea to them, but you and I, with our > > understanding > > of what CPAN is and it's massive scope, find this absurd. I know I do. > > > > Okey, end rant. Mind you, I like to argue strongly for things that I > > don't really feel very strongly about, and just because I have a > > page full of "reasons" that things should be done one way doesn't mean > > I won't change my mind in my sleep tonight. So take this all with a > > grain > > of salt. It's just my knee jerk reaction. If I tried really hard, I'm > > sure > > I could make a convincing argument for rewriting it in Perl too ;) > > So I hope this is at least food for thought. > > > > Cheers, > > -scott > > > > > > On 0, Chris Krum wrote: > >> > >> I'm looking for a drag&drop UI builder for wxPerl that's written in > >> Perl. Any such animal out there? I've seen wxGlade and others that can > >> DO wxPerl but they're written in Python etc. so if I want to make > >> changes I'll have to learn a new language. Barring the existence of an > >> established project, would it be a worthwhile endeavour to start my > >> own? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Chris. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list > >> Phoenix-pm@pm.org > >> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From scott at illogics.org Mon Jun 21 02:46:14 2004 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:06 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] UI Builder in Perl Message-ID: <20040621074613.GZ120@illogics.org> Oh, one last bit of wisdom - if you're developing carpel tunnels, do *NOT* attempt to go rock climbing with your buddies. You won't be able to climb rocks *or* type. (stupid, stupid, stupid...) -scott On 0, Chris Krum wrote: > > Funny, I've been lurking on this list for some time now and I've never > seen you show any propensity for argumentation. ;-) You always seem so > quiet and reserved. > > But seriously. What do you mean by "improving the Perl integration"? > Are you referring to the integration of Perl and Wx or the ability of > wxGlade to generate Perl code? > > I guess the thing I have against tools written in one language > generating code in another is that something is always lost in > translation. Like the saying goes "Nothing does perl like perl." Take > the new perl plug-in for Eclipse. Great idea, but I would imagine that > there is a lot of perl syntax that a Java framework won't be able to > deal with. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that anyone using Eclipse to > write perl code will need to avoid most of the more interesting > syntactic sugar because Java won't know what to do with it. > > And that brings me to another of your points. The idea of "glue in > other languages" to allow them to use perl code sounds good, but I > don't think anything short of embedding a full perl interpreter is > going to work. I don't imagine that's what you had in mind. Are you > aware of any languages that have actually embedded perl? I seem to > remember that M$ promised that the CRL would allow you to run any > language but that when someone tried to create an interpreter for perl > they had trouble with the fact that it was dynamically typed. > > No rant intended. Just juxtaposing myself. (And man did it hurt!) > > Anyway, all I'm really looking for is a perl project to help me keep my > experience up. I almost never get to write in perl anymore. > > Well, thanks for listening. > Chris. > > On Jun 18, 2004, at 8:02 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > > > I don't know of anything that does this, but I wasn't aware that there > > was > > a GUI builder for wx at all. I only knew about Glade. > > > > My money is always on integration. To use a near by analogy: There are > > entirely > > too many windowing toolkits out there.. Tk, Gtk, wx, Prima, X11::Motif, > > qt... probably some others I'm forgetting. Translating the > > features of one application into an implementation in another > > language creates more forks, more code to maintain, more "standards". > > Tk was widely successful because people wrote bindings for > > it for Scheme, Python, Perl, and even Java if I'm not mistaken. > > This was good for Scheme, Python, and Perl (thought the Java camp > > could care less). This in turn was good for Tk (again). > > > > I certainly understand the urge to take out the bulldozer and > > flatten my workspace before I start writing code, but there is a lot > > of incentive to resist this uge. > > > > Specifically, your energies would be better spent, in my > > opinion, improving the Perl integration, making it less C-ish and > > more language netural, improving documentation so that other people > > don't have to meddle in guts of other languages. This would involve > > learning Python, but learning new languages is kind of fun and very > > educational. The Python people did get a few things right. > > > > Here's another story. Majordomo is old, crufty, and not that well > > maintained. It's written in Perl. Mailman is new, and written by > > a friend of mine who is a security fiend, but it's written in Python. > > You may have noticed that the mail list changed recently from > > Majordomo to Mailman after what word of mouth says was a security > > breech. This, for the Perl users group lists. Outrage? Or wisdom? > > > > And another story. PHP has PEAR. Perl has CPAN. CPAN is hugely > > valuable to Perl and a lot of the success of the language is > > attributable to the producitivity boost CPAN brings. I'd love to > > see glue in other languages so that you can use CPAN, much like > > you can use Inline::Java to get at the AWT from Perl, or use > > Win32::* to get at the GDI, or use Inline::C to get any any > > C library. Rather than the PHP camp making any sort of generic glue at > > all, > > they decided to reimplement the best parts of CPAN. This probably > > sounded > > like a perfectly reasonable idea to them, but you and I, with our > > understanding > > of what CPAN is and it's massive scope, find this absurd. I know I do. > > > > Okey, end rant. Mind you, I like to argue strongly for things that I > > don't really feel very strongly about, and just because I have a > > page full of "reasons" that things should be done one way doesn't mean > > I won't change my mind in my sleep tonight. So take this all with a > > grain > > of salt. It's just my knee jerk reaction. If I tried really hard, I'm > > sure > > I could make a convincing argument for rewriting it in Perl too ;) > > So I hope this is at least food for thought. > > > > Cheers, > > -scott > > > > > > On 0, Chris Krum wrote: > >> > >> I'm looking for a drag&drop UI builder for wxPerl that's written in > >> Perl. Any such animal out there? I've seen wxGlade and others that can > >> DO wxPerl but they're written in Python etc. so if I want to make > >> changes I'll have to learn a new language. Barring the existence of an > >> established project, would it be a worthwhile endeavour to start my > >> own? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Chris. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Phoenix-pm mailing list > >> Phoenix-pm@pm.org > >> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phoenix-pm mailing list > Phoenix-pm@pm.org > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm From intertwingled at qwest.net Mon Jun 21 02:58:06 2004 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (Anthony Nemmer) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:06 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] UI Builder in Perl In-Reply-To: <20040621074613.GZ120@illogics.org> References: <20040621074613.GZ120@illogics.org> Message-ID: <40D6950E.80402@qwest.net> What's even worse is moving to a new apartment, injuring your left arm, and then having it give out on you while you are trying to lift a heavy monitor, losing, your balance, and having your right hand go through the livingroom window. =) (stupid, stupid, stupid...) Tony Scott Walters wrote: >Oh, one last bit of wisdom - if you're developing carpel tunnels, >do *NOT* attempt to go rock climbing with your buddies. >You won't be able to climb rocks *or* type. >(stupid, stupid, stupid...) > >-scott > >On 0, Chris Krum wrote: > > >>Funny, I've been lurking on this list for some time now and I've never >>seen you show any propensity for argumentation. ;-) You always seem so >>quiet and reserved. >> >>But seriously. What do you mean by "improving the Perl integration"? >>Are you referring to the integration of Perl and Wx or the ability of >>wxGlade to generate Perl code? >> >>I guess the thing I have against tools written in one language >>generating code in another is that something is always lost in >>translation. Like the saying goes "Nothing does perl like perl." Take >>the new perl plug-in for Eclipse. Great idea, but I would imagine that >>there is a lot of perl syntax that a Java framework won't be able to >>deal with. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that anyone using Eclipse to >>write perl code will need to avoid most of the more interesting >>syntactic sugar because Java won't know what to do with it. >> >>And that brings me to another of your points. The idea of "glue in >>other languages" to allow them to use perl code sounds good, but I >>don't think anything short of embedding a full perl interpreter is >>going to work. I don't imagine that's what you had in mind. Are you >>aware of any languages that have actually embedded perl? I seem to >>remember that M$ promised that the CRL would allow you to run any >>language but that when someone tried to create an interpreter for perl >>they had trouble with the fact that it was dynamically typed. >> >>No rant intended. Just juxtaposing myself. (And man did it hurt!) >> >>Anyway, all I'm really looking for is a perl project to help me keep my >>experience up. I almost never get to write in perl anymore. >> >>Well, thanks for listening. >>Chris. >> >>On Jun 18, 2004, at 8:02 PM, Scott Walters wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Chris, >>> >>>I don't know of anything that does this, but I wasn't aware that there >>>was >>>a GUI builder for wx at all. I only knew about Glade. >>> >>>My money is always on integration. To use a near by analogy: There are >>>entirely >>>too many windowing toolkits out there.. Tk, Gtk, wx, Prima, X11::Motif, >>>qt... probably some others I'm forgetting. Translating the >>>features of one application into an implementation in another >>>language creates more forks, more code to maintain, more "standards". >>>Tk was widely successful because people wrote bindings for >>>it for Scheme, Python, Perl, and even Java if I'm not mistaken. >>>This was good for Scheme, Python, and Perl (thought the Java camp >>>could care less). This in turn was good for Tk (again). >>> >>>I certainly understand the urge to take out the bulldozer and >>>flatten my workspace before I start writing code, but there is a lot >>>of incentive to resist this uge. >>> >>>Specifically, your energies would be better spent, in my >>>opinion, improving the Perl integration, making it less C-ish and >>>more language netural, improving documentation so that other people >>>don't have to meddle in guts of other languages. This would involve >>>learning Python, but learning new languages is kind of fun and very >>>educational. The Python people did get a few things right. >>> >>>Here's another story. Majordomo is old, crufty, and not that well >>>maintained. It's written in Perl. Mailman is new, and written by >>>a friend of mine who is a security fiend, but it's written in Python. >>>You may have noticed that the mail list changed recently from >>>Majordomo to Mailman after what word of mouth says was a security >>>breech. This, for the Perl users group lists. Outrage? Or wisdom? >>> >>>And another story. PHP has PEAR. Perl has CPAN. CPAN is hugely >>>valuable to Perl and a lot of the success of the language is >>>attributable to the producitivity boost CPAN brings. I'd love to >>>see glue in other languages so that you can use CPAN, much like >>>you can use Inline::Java to get at the AWT from Perl, or use >>>Win32::* to get at the GDI, or use Inline::C to get any any >>>C library. Rather than the PHP camp making any sort of generic glue at >>>all, >>>they decided to reimplement the best parts of CPAN. This probably >>>sounded >>>like a perfectly reasonable idea to them, but you and I, with our >>>understanding >>>of what CPAN is and it's massive scope, find this absurd. I know I do. >>> >>>Okey, end rant. Mind you, I like to argue strongly for things that I >>>don't really feel very strongly about, and just because I have a >>>page full of "reasons" that things should be done one way doesn't mean >>>I won't change my mind in my sleep tonight. So take this all with a >>>grain >>>of salt. It's just my knee jerk reaction. If I tried really hard, I'm >>>sure >>>I could make a convincing argument for rewriting it in Perl too ;) >>>So I hope this is at least food for thought. >>> >>>Cheers, >>>-scott >>> >>> >>>On 0, Chris Krum wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I'm looking for a drag&drop UI builder for wxPerl that's written in >>>>Perl. Any such animal out there? I've seen wxGlade and others that can >>>>DO wxPerl but they're written in Python etc. so if I want to make >>>>changes I'll have to learn a new language. Barring the existence of an >>>>established project, would it be a worthwhile endeavour to start my >>>>own? >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>>Chris. >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Phoenix-pm mailing list >>>>Phoenix-pm@pm.org >>>>http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >>>> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Phoenix-pm mailing list >>Phoenix-pm@pm.org >>http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Phoenix-pm mailing list >Phoenix-pm@pm.org >http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm > > > > -- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER. From perlguy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 22 13:57:25 2004 From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:35:06 2004 Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Out of Town Message-ID: <40D88115.40406@earthlink.net> Just FYI, I'll be out of town from 6/26 through 7/11. I'll check my voicemail/email when I get back.