From scott at illogics.org  Mon Aug  2 04:18:19 2004
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:35:06 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] CPAN "cost" $677 million, DEFCON report
Message-ID: <20040802091819.GX21852@illogics.org>

Hi folks,

If you don't read Slashdot: http://www.etla.org/stdout/code/cpan_sloccount.html
Someone took a lines-of-code tool to Perl to estimate the amount of labor
that went into it (though of course this is going to be wildly inaccurate
for a host of reasons). Still, interesting. 12,434,471 lines of Perl, which
constituted about 80% of the text data. 0.14% assembly was kind of interesting
too.

Back from DEFCON and since I don't have a company to have sent me I
feel as though I should report to you as I feel as though I should
report to *someone*. First day, the laptop's power supply blew
(capacitor), so I was without a laptop the whole time. Only 
gutter punk party boys go to DEFCON detached from a laptop, so
I was forced to hang out with the gutter punk party boys (and
read Perl and Computer Science by the pool). I had a few good
conversations but for the most part I was bored out of my tree.
Nathan Torkington was there again, and again, I saw him briefly
(momentarily) before he succumbed to the forces of wisk and
was wisked away (under his own wisk power). Gnat would rather have
been at OSCON (I assume) and so would have I. (Gnat is ORA's
security editor now, so this is on-topic for him and OSCON
is only less so). The capturer-the-flag server OS was Windows 2000, and 
applications included IIS, SQL Server, a MOO, and, well, other things. I didn't
touch a keyboard (I didn't have one to touch, I'm not touching this
stuff, and I had swonrd off CtF anyway). The only strategy
worth a damn was sniffing the wire, analyzing the protocols,
and doing to everyone else what was apparently being done to you.
Actively defending as a strategy did not apply as it had in
years past, and exploits where in too large of a ethereal
meta-space to be easily identified by a quick audit or
updates. CtF was a mix of voodoo and cargo culting this year.
While I wouldn't have touched the keyboard, it was a very
interesting practical demonstration of Microsoft security and
worth seeing. But CtF is primarily a spectator sport. Oh,
and most of the contestents stayed awake 36 hours straight
as the 8 hour night breaks were removed this year. (Microsoft
related comment deleted). The talks were... well... not
exactly hands on and not exactly advanced. In previous years,
the talks were almost as uenthraling, but they were almost impossible
to get into. Instead, you were encouraged to sit in your hotel 
room and watch it on CCTV - usually without sound, and the camera
pointed the wrong direction, or else only able to see the slides
and not the speaker or props. So many fewer people came this
year, according to my estimate. Script kiddies have got to be
disappointed by the lack of real black-hat potential stuff.
Security professions have got to be disappointed by the lack of
reporting on trends and aggregate data. Some geeks would be
satisified by some of the under the covers looks at 
technology. The PGP talk was good - it got into all the
various ways it got misintegrated into proprietary protocols
(Microsoft sends a plain text version of the document off
Exxchange just in case you don't have PGP to decode the encrypted
copy - d'oh!). This was a good talk. Other "technical" talks
tended to be idle, non-expert speculation about things that have
been speculated about before but are then passed off a concept
of importance. The party atmosphere DEFCON is known for is
on the decline was well. The fetishes (including public nudity,
latex, S&M, and so on) didn't make nearly the appearance they
did last year. General concensus is skip DEFCON and do HOPE.
It isn't the same party atmosphere, but it has everything else
(and not everyone wants a huge party anyway). The LAN room is
all but dead - that was my primary attraction - recreating the
CS lab experience from college (and the several years before
college when I was pretending to be a college student just for the 
lab experience). Now rather than a mess of cables on the floor, hubs,
switches, routers, power cords, etc, all over the place with
hundreds of hackers crawded arounds tables, on the floor, and
along the walls hacking all night on some presumabily interesting
project, now, a few people were at tables and in the halls running off battery
just to check their email briefly over WiFi while they waited for the
next crummy talk. 

-scott



From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com  Mon Aug  2 10:02:02 2004
From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:35:06 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Hash of Arrays of Objects
Message-ID: <6B681776AD07ED4EBEEA5D961E431088044E6A0B@phxmx02.corp.acxiom.net>

I'm new to objects in Perl and I'm trying to create an object call Task,
that I load into a Hash of Arrays based on the due date attribute of the
object.  Everything appears fine until I start to step through the
Hash/Array to call the print method of the loaded object.  It appears not to
work, but the print statements that I put in show the same type and
reference as was created at the beginning.  I'm assuming that there is
something simple about this that I've overlooked and/or don't understand.
Any insight and suggestions would be appreciated.

 

#!/usr/bin/perl

 

use lib "lib";

use Task;

 

my %todo;

 

my $task1 = new Task( something => "me", desc => "This is my first task" );
print $task1->print(), "\n"; print STDERR "\$task1: [$task1]\n"; push @{
$todo{ $task1->tsort() } }, $task1; my $task2 = new Task( due =>
"2004-12-18", desc => "Second Task", type => "work" ); #print
$task2->print(), "\n"; push @{ $todo{ $task2->tsort() } }, $task2;

 

foreach my $key ( sort keys %todo ) {

      print STDERR "\$key: [$key]\n";

      foreach my $obj ( @{ $todo{ $key } } ) {

            print STDERR "\$obj: [$obj]\n";

            $obj->print(), "\n";

      }

}

 

__END__

 

 

<<OUTPUT>>

Pending                       Home This is my first task

$task1: [Task=HASH(0x8152410)]

$key: []

$obj: [Task=HASH(0x8152410)]

$key: [1103353200]

$obj: [Task=HASH(0x819731c)]

 

 



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From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Aug  3 12:44:25 2004
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue Aug  3 12:44:57 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
Message-ID: <456FD0E7B215B24ABBAD711614E4A7A20949F140@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com>

And since there's always multiple ways to do things in Perl:

use lib qw(./LIB /home/phxadmin/scripts/LIB);

Same thing as Scott's example...just how I was taught.

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org]
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 4:31 AM
To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS
Cc: phoenix-pm@pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] greetings


Heh. I have a story I tell all too often =)

I worked as a sysadmin at Motorola for a brief period of time. It was 
there I was ordered to learn Perl (after lieing at the interview saying 
I knew it). My first task was to write a script to find all of the Perl
interpreters installed on the cluster that serves http://mot.com /
http://motorola.com. The script traversed the entire filesystem
and found 400 installs, about a third of which were Perl 4's (this was
probably 4 years ago). Perl wouldn't be installed (and kept up to date)
systemwide for "security reasons". So, instead of one potentially
exploitable version for everyone, each person got a version that's
not kept up to date and in a huge number of cases, exploitable.

But this story has a point - you can install perl or any of the modules
in your home directory or in some shared place. Assuming that perl
itself is kept up to date and you just want to install a module, 
ftp the .tar.gz from CPAN, and do something like:

  tar -xzvf Foo-Bar-3.2.1.tar.gz
  cd Foo-Bar-3.2.1
  perl Makefile.PL
PREFIX=/usr/local/share/departments/r_and_d/shared_files/mp3s/
  make && make install

Perl programs won't "see" this module by default as its in a place that
perl
wasn't told about when it was built (and it isn't in the default place
to
install modules), but you can easily tell perl about it by saying:

  use lib '/usr/local/share/departments/r_and_d/shared_files/mp3s/';

Then the 'use' for that module will work:

  use Foo::Bar;

You could even install the module into your home directory, as long as
permissions were in order for your college's to see the module...
or they could install a copy in their home directory and do something in
the program using the module like:

  BEGIN {
      my($name,$passwd,$uid,$gid,
$quota,$comment,$gcos,$dir,$shell,$expire) = getpwuid $<;
      push @INC, $dir . '/perl_modules';
  }

But that's fugly =P

-scott
  


On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz@att.com> wrote:
> 
> 	As neither I nor my colleagues have root access to compile
> modules and the sysadmins are really freakish about keeping their Perl
> dist unchanged as many "accepted" tools might break, we've developed
all
> of ours using our own modules, relying on system utilities to make the
> SNMP calls instead of an established SNMP module from CPAN.  Until
> recently we were even lead to believe that there were no compilers
> loaded on the box.  I recently found one so we could compile our own
> library for use but we've ran into some problems with the compiler on
> some CPAN modules and really weren't looking forward to rewriting
> everything anyway.
> 	So, is there anyway to accomplish what I'm looking to do without
> using Coro or some other module?  If the "action" code is modularized,
> could I simply fork these instances to run concurrently while either
> passing back output to the calling routine or all writing to the same
> set of error files?  I just wasn't sure how Perl would handle such a
> situation.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Bobby
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:16 PM
> To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS
> Cc: phoenix-pm@pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
> 
> 
> What module exactly are you using? Things that lend themselves well to
> threads usually lend themselves well to coroutines as well, with one
> exception - if you're trying to use two modules, each of which has
their
> 
> own event loop, coroutines don't directly work - you have to break
> the event loop down. (If a module supports the Event module for a
> communal
> event loop, Coro has glue into Event, so this works).
> 
> For example, if you're using Net::IRC with Tk, and Net::IRC wants you
to
> call
> Net::IRC::start to hand over control of the program and Tk wants you
to
> call 
> Tk::MainLoop to give up the CPU, you have a delimma. Threads solve
this
> by 
> creating additional "virtual CPUs", wheres coroutines only help you
> juggle your
> one CPU. You'd have to extract the relavent filehandles, build your
own
> Event loop using Coro::Handle::unblock or Coro::Event::io, and then
call
> the
> do_one_loop() loop in Net::IRC and the equivilent in Tk to do a single
> pass through
> their private event loops without giving up control of the CPU. 
> 
> Modules that don't have an event loop at all work great - they don't
try
> to 
> hold onto the CPU indefinately. So, it depends on the exact module
> you're using =)
> 
> -soctt
> 
> On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz@att.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Hmmm...these all sound interesting so maybe I should ask a pointed
> > question now.  I do a lot of net admin stuff involving SNMP polling
> and
> > currently most of my tools are "single-threaded", i.e. I poll one
> device
> > at a time.  Based on the options presented, what would be the
easiest
> > means of changing to a setup of polling say 10 devices at the same
> time
> > with the main script retaining control and reporting
responsibilities?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Bobby
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org]On
> > Behalf Of Anthony Nemmer
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:44 AM
> > To: Scott Walters
> > Cc: phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
> > 
> > 
> > Unix pipes implement a kind of coroutine chain of unix commands.
> > 
> > Scott Walters wrote:
> > 
> > >Well, coroutines are a lot like POE (or Event, or Stem), except
> > >when the event happens, rather than another routine being called,
the
> > >current is allowed to continue. This means that you don't have to
> > >tuck all of your variables into an object to preserve them,
> > >and you don't have to return out of for() loops, if() statements,
> > >deeply nested function calls, and so on... but the POE stuff
> > >about not shooting yourself in the foot with threads still
> > >applies. And no special version of modules are required,
> > >as with threads.
> > >
> > >Here's a little script tht demonstrates continuations:
> > >
> > >  use Coro; 
> > >  use Coro::Cont;
> > >          
> > >  use File::Find;
> > >  use Perl6::Variables;
> > >   
> > >  sub get_next_perl :Cont {
> > >      find(sub { 
> > >          return unless m/\.pl$/;
> > >          open my $pl, '<', $_ or return;
> > >          (my $shebang) = <$pl> =~ m/^#!(\S+)/ or return;
> > >          yield $shebang;
> > >      }, '/');
> > >      return undef;
> > >  }
> > >
> > >  while(my $_ = get_next_perl()) {
> > >      last unless defined $_; 
> > >      print $_, "\n";
> > >  }
> > >
> > >This tries to find all of the Perl itnerpreters on your system that
> are
> > >in use. Coroutines are used to create detached processes and
> > continuations 
> > >are used to create closely coupled processes. In this case, control
> > >flops back and forth between get_next_perl() and the while(). Even
> > >as control flops back, the lexical variables inside get_next_perl()
> > >keep their value. More importantly, the call to File::Find::find()
> > isn't
> > >exected out of. It would suck if that had to be restarted each time
> > >we wanted to know what interpreter the next file used. Likewise
with
> a
> > >network application, this would be responsive, whereas storing
> > everything
> > >in an array and returning a reference would wait a really long time
> and
> > then 
> > >suddenly have a whole bunch of data.
> > >
> > >Hrm. I should write some examples of gluing POE to Coro. Event
> handler
> > stubs
> > >could execute a ->transfer() to transfer control to a specific
> > coroutine.
> > >I wonder how Coro::Event does it...
> > >
> > >-scott
> > >
> > >On  0, Artful <ahenry-pm@artful2099.com> wrote:
> > >  
> > >
> > >>>Anyone into multi-threaded perl programming?  It's something I
have
> > no
> > >>>experience in and would love to see an overview if anyone is
> willing.
> > >>>Just a thought.
> > >>>
> > >>>Bobby
> > >>>      
> > >>>
> > >>Threading in perl is cumbersome at best.  I am falling in love
with
> > POE.
> > >>http://poe.perl.org/
> > >>
> > >>At first glance, it can seem complex, but the concept is pretty
> simple
> > and
> > >>it is easy to pick up.  There are a couple of recent articles at
> > perl.com
> > >>covering it: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/07/02/poeintro.html
and
> > >>http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/07/22/poe.html
> > >>
> > >>-Art-
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > >>Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > >>http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > >>    
> > >>
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > >Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > >http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From bwmetz at att.com  Tue Aug  3 12:48:14 2004
From: bwmetz at att.com (Metz, Bobby W, WCS)
Date: Tue Aug  3 12:48:24 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
Message-ID: <456FD0E7B215B24ABBAD711614E4A7A20949F15D@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com>

OK, I'm an idiot.  Flame me now as I didn't bother to read whose
question Scott was replying to.  Little did I realize that it was one of
my own :)...anyway, the problem on my sys is that there isn't a good
compiler, i.e. no gcc.  The default compiler doesn't work with about
half of the CPAN modules I've encountered and since I'm not a "tool
developer", that level of support will never be provided.  Doesn't mean
I don't have to do the work to get the job done...it just means I have
to be more inventive on a daily basis.  Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: Metz, Bobby W, WCS 
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 10:44 AM
To: 'Scott Walters'
Cc: phoenix-pm@pm.org
Subject: RE: [Phoenix-pm] greetings


And since there's always multiple ways to do things in Perl:

use lib qw(./LIB /home/phxadmin/scripts/LIB);

Same thing as Scott's example...just how I was taught.

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org]
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 4:31 AM
To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS
Cc: phoenix-pm@pm.org
Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] greetings


Heh. I have a story I tell all too often =)

I worked as a sysadmin at Motorola for a brief period of time. It was 
there I was ordered to learn Perl (after lieing at the interview saying 
I knew it). My first task was to write a script to find all of the Perl
interpreters installed on the cluster that serves http://mot.com /
http://motorola.com. The script traversed the entire filesystem
and found 400 installs, about a third of which were Perl 4's (this was
probably 4 years ago). Perl wouldn't be installed (and kept up to date)
systemwide for "security reasons". So, instead of one potentially
exploitable version for everyone, each person got a version that's
not kept up to date and in a huge number of cases, exploitable.

But this story has a point - you can install perl or any of the modules
in your home directory or in some shared place. Assuming that perl
itself is kept up to date and you just want to install a module, 
ftp the .tar.gz from CPAN, and do something like:

  tar -xzvf Foo-Bar-3.2.1.tar.gz
  cd Foo-Bar-3.2.1
  perl Makefile.PL
PREFIX=/usr/local/share/departments/r_and_d/shared_files/mp3s/
  make && make install

Perl programs won't "see" this module by default as its in a place that
perl
wasn't told about when it was built (and it isn't in the default place
to
install modules), but you can easily tell perl about it by saying:

  use lib '/usr/local/share/departments/r_and_d/shared_files/mp3s/';

Then the 'use' for that module will work:

  use Foo::Bar;

You could even install the module into your home directory, as long as
permissions were in order for your college's to see the module...
or they could install a copy in their home directory and do something in
the program using the module like:

  BEGIN {
      my($name,$passwd,$uid,$gid,
$quota,$comment,$gcos,$dir,$shell,$expire) = getpwuid $<;
      push @INC, $dir . '/perl_modules';
  }

But that's fugly =P

-scott
  


On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz@att.com> wrote:
> 
> 	As neither I nor my colleagues have root access to compile
> modules and the sysadmins are really freakish about keeping their Perl
> dist unchanged as many "accepted" tools might break, we've developed
all
> of ours using our own modules, relying on system utilities to make the
> SNMP calls instead of an established SNMP module from CPAN.  Until
> recently we were even lead to believe that there were no compilers
> loaded on the box.  I recently found one so we could compile our own
> library for use but we've ran into some problems with the compiler on
> some CPAN modules and really weren't looking forward to rewriting
> everything anyway.
> 	So, is there anyway to accomplish what I'm looking to do without
> using Coro or some other module?  If the "action" code is modularized,
> could I simply fork these instances to run concurrently while either
> passing back output to the calling routine or all writing to the same
> set of error files?  I just wasn't sure how Perl would handle such a
> situation.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Bobby
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:16 PM
> To: Metz, Bobby W, WCS
> Cc: phoenix-pm@pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
> 
> 
> What module exactly are you using? Things that lend themselves well to
> threads usually lend themselves well to coroutines as well, with one
> exception - if you're trying to use two modules, each of which has
their
> 
> own event loop, coroutines don't directly work - you have to break
> the event loop down. (If a module supports the Event module for a
> communal
> event loop, Coro has glue into Event, so this works).
> 
> For example, if you're using Net::IRC with Tk, and Net::IRC wants you
to
> call
> Net::IRC::start to hand over control of the program and Tk wants you
to
> call 
> Tk::MainLoop to give up the CPU, you have a delimma. Threads solve
this
> by 
> creating additional "virtual CPUs", wheres coroutines only help you
> juggle your
> one CPU. You'd have to extract the relavent filehandles, build your
own
> Event loop using Coro::Handle::unblock or Coro::Event::io, and then
call
> the
> do_one_loop() loop in Net::IRC and the equivilent in Tk to do a single
> pass through
> their private event loops without giving up control of the CPU. 
> 
> Modules that don't have an event loop at all work great - they don't
try
> to 
> hold onto the CPU indefinately. So, it depends on the exact module
> you're using =)
> 
> -soctt
> 
> On  0, "Metz, Bobby W, WCS" <bwmetz@att.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Hmmm...these all sound interesting so maybe I should ask a pointed
> > question now.  I do a lot of net admin stuff involving SNMP polling
> and
> > currently most of my tools are "single-threaded", i.e. I poll one
> device
> > at a time.  Based on the options presented, what would be the
easiest
> > means of changing to a setup of polling say 10 devices at the same
> time
> > with the main script retaining control and reporting
responsibilities?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Bobby
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org [mailto:phoenix-pm-bounces@pm.org]On
> > Behalf Of Anthony Nemmer
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:44 AM
> > To: Scott Walters
> > Cc: phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > Subject: Re: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
> > 
> > 
> > Unix pipes implement a kind of coroutine chain of unix commands.
> > 
> > Scott Walters wrote:
> > 
> > >Well, coroutines are a lot like POE (or Event, or Stem), except
> > >when the event happens, rather than another routine being called,
the
> > >current is allowed to continue. This means that you don't have to
> > >tuck all of your variables into an object to preserve them,
> > >and you don't have to return out of for() loops, if() statements,
> > >deeply nested function calls, and so on... but the POE stuff
> > >about not shooting yourself in the foot with threads still
> > >applies. And no special version of modules are required,
> > >as with threads.
> > >
> > >Here's a little script tht demonstrates continuations:
> > >
> > >  use Coro; 
> > >  use Coro::Cont;
> > >          
> > >  use File::Find;
> > >  use Perl6::Variables;
> > >   
> > >  sub get_next_perl :Cont {
> > >      find(sub { 
> > >          return unless m/\.pl$/;
> > >          open my $pl, '<', $_ or return;
> > >          (my $shebang) = <$pl> =~ m/^#!(\S+)/ or return;
> > >          yield $shebang;
> > >      }, '/');
> > >      return undef;
> > >  }
> > >
> > >  while(my $_ = get_next_perl()) {
> > >      last unless defined $_; 
> > >      print $_, "\n";
> > >  }
> > >
> > >This tries to find all of the Perl itnerpreters on your system that
> are
> > >in use. Coroutines are used to create detached processes and
> > continuations 
> > >are used to create closely coupled processes. In this case, control
> > >flops back and forth between get_next_perl() and the while(). Even
> > >as control flops back, the lexical variables inside get_next_perl()
> > >keep their value. More importantly, the call to File::Find::find()
> > isn't
> > >exected out of. It would suck if that had to be restarted each time
> > >we wanted to know what interpreter the next file used. Likewise
with
> a
> > >network application, this would be responsive, whereas storing
> > everything
> > >in an array and returning a reference would wait a really long time
> and
> > then 
> > >suddenly have a whole bunch of data.
> > >
> > >Hrm. I should write some examples of gluing POE to Coro. Event
> handler
> > stubs
> > >could execute a ->transfer() to transfer control to a specific
> > coroutine.
> > >I wonder how Coro::Event does it...
> > >
> > >-scott
> > >
> > >On  0, Artful <ahenry-pm@artful2099.com> wrote:
> > >  
> > >
> > >>>Anyone into multi-threaded perl programming?  It's something I
have
> > no
> > >>>experience in and would love to see an overview if anyone is
> willing.
> > >>>Just a thought.
> > >>>
> > >>>Bobby
> > >>>      
> > >>>
> > >>Threading in perl is cumbersome at best.  I am falling in love
with
> > POE.
> > >>http://poe.perl.org/
> > >>
> > >>At first glance, it can seem complex, but the concept is pretty
> simple
> > and
> > >>it is easy to pick up.  There are a couple of recent articles at
> > perl.com
> > >>covering it: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/07/02/poeintro.html
and
> > >>http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/07/22/poe.html
> > >>
> > >>-Art-
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > >>Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > >>http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > >>    
> > >>
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > >Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > >http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Phoenix-pm mailing list
> > Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> > http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm@pm.org
> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm

From awwaiid at thelackthereof.org  Tue Aug  3 13:00:38 2004
From: awwaiid at thelackthereof.org (Brock)
Date: Tue Aug  3 13:01:56 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
In-Reply-To: <456FD0E7B215B24ABBAD711614E4A7A20949F15D@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com>
References: <456FD0E7B215B24ABBAD711614E4A7A20949F15D@OCCLUST03EVS1.ugd.att.com>
Message-ID: <20040803180038.GA7277@thelackthereof.org>


Two ideas:
  1) /home/phxadmin/local/bin/gcc :)
  2) cross-compile! Its fun!

--Brock

On 2004.08.03.12.48, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote:
| OK, I'm an idiot.  Flame me now as I didn't bother to read whose
| question Scott was replying to.  Little did I realize that it was one of
| my own :)...anyway, the problem on my sys is that there isn't a good
| compiler, i.e. no gcc.  The default compiler doesn't work with about
| half of the CPAN modules I've encountered and since I'm not a "tool
| developer", that level of support will never be provided.  Doesn't mean
| I don't have to do the work to get the job done...it just means I have
| to be more inventive on a daily basis.  Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
| 
| Bobby

From scott at illogics.org  Tue Aug  3 13:03:43 2004
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Tue Aug  3 13:05:02 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
Message-ID: <20040803180343.GC21852@illogics.org>

Root the box, install a rootkit, and build a secret shadow userland
and toolchain for you and your minions.

-scott

On  0, Brock <awwaiid@thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Two ideas:
>   1) /home/phxadmin/local/bin/gcc :)
>   2) cross-compile! Its fun!
> 
> --Brock
> 
> On 2004.08.03.12.48, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote:
> | OK, I'm an idiot.  Flame me now as I didn't bother to read whose
> | question Scott was replying to.  Little did I realize that it was one of
> | my own :)...anyway, the problem on my sys is that there isn't a good
> | compiler, i.e. no gcc.  The default compiler doesn't work with about
> | half of the CPAN modules I've encountered and since I'm not a "tool
> | developer", that level of support will never be provided.  Doesn't mean
> | I don't have to do the work to get the job done...it just means I have
> | to be more inventive on a daily basis.  Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
> | 
> | Bobby
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm@mail.pm.org
> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
From perlguy at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  3 13:16:41 2004
From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles)
Date: Tue Aug  3 13:20:37 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 08/05/2004
Message-ID: <410FD689.5040405@earthlink.net>

Please RSVP...

We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, August 5th at 7:00PM.
It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue,
which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell.  The parking
lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the
receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting.  Park in the lot
that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell.
Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space.  Proceed to the main lobby,
which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot.


Brock will be presenting "Using Contize.pm for Web Applications".  Also, 
I have a couple of books to give away.
From intertwingled at qwest.net  Tue Aug  3 06:45:45 2004
From: intertwingled at qwest.net (Anthony Nemmer)
Date: Tue Aug  3 13:41:09 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] greetings
In-Reply-To: <20040803180343.GC21852@illogics.org>
References: <20040803180343.GC21852@illogics.org>
Message-ID: <410F7AE9.50005@qwest.net>

/me slaps scott around a bit with a large trout

Scott Walters wrote:
> Root the box, install a rootkit, and build a secret shadow userland
> and toolchain for you and your minions.
> 
> -scott
> 
> On  0, Brock <awwaiid@thelackthereof.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>>Two ideas:
>>  1) /home/phxadmin/local/bin/gcc :)
>>  2) cross-compile! Its fun!
>>
>>--Brock
>>
>>On 2004.08.03.12.48, Metz, Bobby W, WCS wrote:
>>| OK, I'm an idiot.  Flame me now as I didn't bother to read whose
>>| question Scott was replying to.  Little did I realize that it was one of
>>| my own :)...anyway, the problem on my sys is that there isn't a good
>>| compiler, i.e. no gcc.  The default compiler doesn't work with about
>>| half of the CPAN modules I've encountered and since I'm not a "tool
>>| developer", that level of support will never be provided.  Doesn't mean
>>| I don't have to do the work to get the job done...it just means I have
>>| to be more inventive on a daily basis.  Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
>>| 
>>| Bobby
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>>Phoenix-pm@mail.pm.org
>>http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm@mail.pm.org
> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> 
> 


-- 

SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.

From mpjbell at SoftHome.net  Thu Aug  5 07:03:56 2004
From: mpjbell at SoftHome.net (Marty Bell)
Date: Thu Aug  5 09:02:22 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Meeting 08/05/2004
In-Reply-To: <410FD689.5040405@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20040805070356.00ac5b48@pop.SoftHome.net>

I'll be there!

Marty

At 11:16 AM 8/3/2004 -0700, Douglas E. Miles wrote:
>Please RSVP...
>
>We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, August 5th at 7:00PM.
>It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue,
>which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell.  The parking
>lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the
>receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting.  Park in the lot
>that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell.
>Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space.  Proceed to the main lobby,
>which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot.
>
>
>Brock will be presenting "Using Contize.pm for Web Applications".  Also, 
>I have a couple of books to give away.
>_______________________________________________
>Phoenix-pm mailing list
>Phoenix-pm@mail.pm.org
>http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
>
From garyefron at cox.net  Thu Aug  5 14:51:24 2004
From: garyefron at cox.net (Gary Efron)
Date: Thu Aug  5 14:40:16 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Need Help Printing a Check Box With a check in it
 (using unicode)
Message-ID: <200408051251240010.00587B24@smtp.west.cox.net>

Hi,
I tried executing the two line program which should have displayed a smiley face. 
This is the script:
use utf8;
print "hex 263a =\x{263a}";  # a Unicode smiley face :)
This is what printed.
Wide character in print at unicode.pl line 2.
hex 263a =_??

Once I get this program working, I will need to find the unicode for a check box with a check in it, and a checkbox without a check in it. 

Thanks, in advance for the help.
Regards,
Gary Efron
garyefron@cox.net
Life is like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today May burn your ass tomorrow

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From perlguy at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  6 11:45:53 2004
From: perlguy at earthlink.net (Douglas E. Miles)
Date: Fri Aug  6 11:49:59 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] The Perl Review
Message-ID: <4113B5C1.505@earthlink.net>

Thanks for the presentation last night Brock!

I forgot to mention last night that the Perl Review just shipped its 
first dead tree issue:

http://theperlreview.com/
From scott at illogics.org  Fri Aug  6 13:26:42 2004
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri Aug  6 13:27:41 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] The Perl Review
Message-ID: <20040806182642.GF11759@illogics.org>

Yes, most excellent, thank you. 

You know, the Tandy 1000's drawing program let you save your drawings to
disc, and when you reloaded them, you'd watch it reply at high speed every
operation you'd preformed in constructing the image. Incidentally, you
could undo any operation at any point and it would merely recreate the
image as if you never performed that step. 

-scott

On  0, "Douglas E. Miles" <perlguy@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the presentation last night Brock!
> 
> I forgot to mention last night that the Perl Review just shipped its 
> first dead tree issue:
> 
> http://theperlreview.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm@mail.pm.org
> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
From scott at illogics.org  Fri Aug  6 13:30:17 2004
From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters)
Date: Fri Aug  6 13:31:18 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Need Help Printing a Check Box With a check in it
Message-ID: <20040806183017.GG11759@illogics.org>

Hrm, I've never really worked with Unicode, but not every terminal
is going to be set up to deal with it. I don't think my stock xterm
is. You might try searching the archives at perlmongers.org...

-scott

On  0, Gary Efron <garyefron@cox.net> wrote:
> 
> --===============0573175001==
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_109173548428814=_"
> 
> --=====_109173548428814=_
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> Hi,
> I tried executing the two line program which should have displayed a smiley=
>  face. 
> This is the script:
> use utf8;
> print "hex 263a =3D\x{263a}";  # a Unicode smiley face :)
> This is what printed.
> Wide character in print at unicode.pl line 2.
> hex 263a =3D_=FF=A6
> 
> Once I get this program working, I will need to find the unicode for a=
>  check box with a check in it, and a checkbox without a check in it. 
> 
> Thanks, in advance for the help.
> Regards,
> Gary Efron
> garyefron@cox.net
> Life is like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today May burn your ass=
>  tomorrow
> 
> 
> --=====_109173548428814=_
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
> <BODY style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial" text=#000000 bgColor=#ffffff><FONT size=2>
> <DIV>Hi,</DIV>
> <DIV>I tried executing the two line program which should have displayed a smiley 
> face. </DIV>
> <DIV>This is the script:</DIV>
> <DIV>use utf8;<BR>print "hex 263a =\x{263a}";&nbsp; # a Unicode smiley face 
> :)</DIV>
> <DIV>This is what printed.</DIV>
> <DIV>Wide character in print at unicode.pl line 2.<BR>hex 263a =_ÿ¦</DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Once I get this program working, I will need to find the unicode for a 
> check box with a check in it, and a checkbox without a check in it. </DIV>
> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV>Thanks, in advance for the help.<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
> 
> <BR>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
> <BODY style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial" text=#000000 bgColor=#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=2>Gary Efron</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=2><A 
> href="mailto:garyefron@cox.net">garyefron@cox.net</A></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=1>
> <P><FONT size=3>Life is like a jar of jalapenos. </FONT><FONT size=3>What you do 
> today May burn your ass tomorrow</FONT></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
> 
> 
> --=====_109173548428814=_--
> 
> 
> --===============0573175001==
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Disposition: inline
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Phoenix-pm mailing list
> Phoenix-pm@mail.pm.org
> http://www.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/phoenix-pm
> --===============0573175001==--
> 
From garyefron at cox.net  Mon Aug  9 12:45:13 2004
From: garyefron at cox.net (Gary Efron)
Date: Mon Aug  9 12:34:07 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] Need Help Printing a Check Box With a check
  in it
Message-ID: <200408091045130020.0A26C17E@smtp.west.cox.net>

Thanks to Scott Walters and Eden Li for your helpful responses. I have a much better understanding now. Since the checkbox may or may not be displayed on the user's terminal, I am opting to use an underscore or an asterisk for unchecked and checked, respectively.
Regards,
Gary Efron
garyefron@cox.net

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From armin.zendron at wuerth.it  Tue Aug 10 10:42:54 2004
From: armin.zendron at wuerth.it (Armin Zendron)
Date: Tue Aug 10 10:43:05 2004
Subject: [Phoenix-pm] DBI for Red Brick
Message-ID: <4118ECFE.5010301@wuerth.it>

Has anyone attempted to use DBI with Red Brick and had 
success?  Specifically DBD::Informix?
  
I am going to be attempting this on a unix machine (hpux).

Thanks
Armin Zendron
armin.zendron@wuerth.it