From Jeremy.Elston at schwab.com Tue Sep 2 10:53:08 2003 From: Jeremy.Elston at schwab.com (Elston, Jeremy) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Message-ID: <8D3F682B0610D411874A00508B6FA8881C5F91F9@n2011pmx.nt.schwab.com> Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things quickly! http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ -----Original Message----- From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something DONE, and passed it as as well; JB On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > Hi, > > http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 > > EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make > them > aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney > general > on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a > dedicated > public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure > companies > follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer > complaints. > Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I > rant. > > So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to > bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence > at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want > to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. > > -scott > From TomA at fh.org Tue Sep 2 11:21:15 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636A4@EXCHANGE> Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? -----Original Message----- From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things quickly! http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ -----Original Message----- From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something DONE, and passed it as as well; JB On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > Hi, > > http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 > > EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make > them > aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney > general > on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a > dedicated > public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure > companies > follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer > complaints. > Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I > rant. > > So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to > bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence > at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want > to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. > > -scott > From intertwingled at qwest.net Tue Sep 2 12:01:03 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something In-Reply-To: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636A4@EXCHANGE> References: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636A4@EXCHANGE> Message-ID: <3F54CCCF.5010700@qwest.net> It's a perlitical discussion list. Tom Achtenberg wrote: >Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM >To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' >Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > >Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things >quickly! > >http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ > > >-----Original Message----- >From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] >Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM >To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > >DONE, and passed it as as well; > >JB > >On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > >>Hi, >> >>http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 >> >>EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make >>them >>aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney >>general >>on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a >>dedicated >>public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure >>companies >>follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer >>complaints. >>Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I >>rant. >> >>So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to >>bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence >>at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want >>to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. >> >>-scott >> >> >> > > > > From scott at illogics.org Wed Sep 3 00:48:27 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Message-ID: <20030903054827.GV9574@illogics.org> Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come right out and say that. Best wishes, -scott On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things > quickly! > > http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > DONE, and passed it as as well; > > JB > > On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 > > > > EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make > > them > > aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney > > general > > on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a > > dedicated > > public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure > > companies > > follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer > > complaints. > > Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I > > rant. > > > > So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to > > bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence > > at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want > > to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. > > > > -scott > > From johngnub at cox.net Wed Sep 3 08:45:40 2003 From: johngnub at cox.net (johnb) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something In-Reply-To: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636A4@EXCHANGE> Message-ID: Then is the question "Is perl a point of view?", My vote, yes it can be.... On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 09:21 AM, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things > quickly! > > http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > DONE, and passed it as as well; > > JB > > On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > >> >> Hi, >> >> http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 >> >> EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make >> them >> aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney >> general >> on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a >> dedicated >> public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure >> companies >> follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer >> complaints. >> Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I >> rant. >> >> So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to >> bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence >> at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want >> to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. >> >> -scott >> > From TomA at fh.org Wed Sep 3 09:20:23 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636AD@EXCHANGE> OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM To: Tom Achtenberg Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come right out and say that. Best wishes, -scott On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things > quickly! > > http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > DONE, and passed it as as well; > > JB > > On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 > > > > EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make > > them > > aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney > > general > > on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a > > dedicated > > public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure > > companies > > follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer > > complaints. > > Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I > > rant. > > > > So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to > > bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence > > at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want > > to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. > > > > -scott > > From intertwingled at qwest.net Wed Sep 3 09:49:35 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something In-Reply-To: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636AD@EXCHANGE> References: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636AD@EXCHANGE> Message-ID: <3F55FF7F.9070304@qwest.net> Does your company use SCO Unix or something? Tony Tom Achtenberg wrote: >OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM >To: Tom Achtenberg >Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > >Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. > >Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically >is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. > >Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some >bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). > >Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic >discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. >If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come >right out and say that. > >Best wishes, >-scott > >On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > >>Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM >>To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' >>Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >> >> >>Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things >>quickly! >> >>http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] >>Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM >>To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >>Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >> >> >>DONE, and passed it as as well; >> >>JB >> >>On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 >>> >>>EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make >>>them >>>aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney >>>general >>>on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a >>>dedicated >>>public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure >>>companies >>>follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer >>>complaints. >>>Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I >>>rant. >>> >>>So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to >>>bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence >>>at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want >>>to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. >>> >>>-scott >>> >>> >>> > > > > From scott at illogics.org Wed Sep 3 10:25:58 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Message-ID: <20030903152558.GD9574@illogics.org> I don't remember posting anti-Microsoft rants to the list. I think you must be thinking of an actual Perl Mongers meeting =) Well, let's see. On the Perl 6 internals list, the discussion of "why do we need keyed varients for every access method" has cropped up yet again. Dan is getting better and better at smacking that down and everyone on the list for any period of time is really good at ignoring the whole thing. The last Apocolypse (6) is extremely demanding of the language side and it will take some time for the language people to catch up. The Perl 6 grammar is useful for some simple things. The main drawback is lack of anything like CPAN (yes, this is a more serious liability than lack of objects). Hence PONIE was introduced, to make P5 run under P6 by porting the guts of P5. Wouldn't it be easier to write a Parrot gcc backend and automate the porting of the P5? I don't know. Perl Design Patterns prompted an interesting exchange with Apress. For those of you who don't know, I've been trying to sell Perl Design Patterns to a publisher for some time. I've essentially ran the gauntlet of publishers. I have 3 or 4 left to tap. The one thing I've learned is going through normal channels does not work for someone without a recognizable name like myself. I got Apress attention for a while because it turns out they had already signed a deal with someone else (who IMHO is butchering the idea). There was some discussion of different ideas that could be done. They fainted lack of interest in the subject, not wanting to leak that they were working on it and as soon as it was announced, stopped returning my emails. I'm feeling a little abused after that. We had been seriously discussion doing something called "Perl 6 NOW", where ideas slated to be introduced in the Perl language in Perl 6 would be demonstrated in Perl 5 in a back-ported form. There are a huge number of these - from the Coro module (giving you coroutines and continuations in Perl) to object oriented error handling to switch, the Perl6::* tree on CPAN, PDL, Class::Multimethods, Next.pm, threads::shared, Concurrent::Object for OO thread interface, Sub::Lexical for lexically scoped subroutines, Quantum::Suppositions for any() and all() like behavior, and some other stuff. I thought it was rather brilliant. They're probably paying someone else to do it now using my outline and proposal. Bastards. So I'm thinking of doing a free version and trying to beat them to the punch. And taking on another major documentation project. Or maybe it is retarded and I just haven't realized this yet. The last major thing I was thinking of biting off someone beat me to - Coro.pm. If you aren't familiar with the idea of a coroutine (which will be in Perl 6 core), it goes something like this: a subroutine can return, but unreturn later. It's lexical context is kept in tact. Of course, "return" and "unreturn" aren't the keywords used. That would be strange. Threads are complex and race conditions and dataflow between threads confuse the heck out of people. Very few people can code threads effectively. Coroutines provide a similar service but tend to be more easily grasped by novices and more easily handled by experts. It is a kind of cooperative multitasking, you might say. Very handy for things like select() loops that wait for activity on a number of filehandles. Things like POE try to solve this, but your handler is called and has to finish executing and return, so it can't do things like store context in variables on the stack. It can't have any stack at all. It has to return. Hence, Coro is a far more powerful replacement for POE and comes with the infrastructure you'd expect. Very nifty. As I said, I was just starting to play with the idea of doing something similar. I resisted the urge to chronical my communications with publishers for a long time, as I've not seen other people talk about these rather senstive dealings, but I've essentially lost the battle at this point and I'm feeling rather pent up, so I'm dropping the facade. And I want to get this off my chest. This has been a huge source of frustration and anxiety. My first serious contact was GNU Press. They were pleasent, responsive, and encouraging, but unable to offer anything in the way of editorial guidance, though this may have changed. I'm due to talk to them again. If I do and something happens, then the shroud of secerecy wouldn't be needed. As noted, I talked to Apress for a while. Towards the tail end of that, I was talking to Nathan Torkington for a while. You might remember him from the Perl Cookbook. ORA made him the security editor, and I had the pleasure of meeting him at DEFCON. I dropped him an email mentioning my mission after the fact and managed two email turnarounds before he stopped responding. ORA had previously completely ignored the proposal. Since it takes a day to put a proposal according to a publishers template and spin everything for them, not hearing back with even a "thanks but not thanks" is a real slap to the face. This is exactly the treatment I got from about 20 publishers. And yes, I spell check those ;) Reguardless, Nathan is a very cool guy, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he is just painfully busy. I'll have to start thinking about doing Perl conferances. On the other hand, I hate bugging busy people with my petty concerns. Trying to talk to publishers makes you feel very small and very stupid, and I'm feeling very grateful for Phoenix Perl Mongers through this whole thing, for not making me feel small and stupid, and being in fact a receptive encouraging resource. Between that and client abuse overload, I've taken a mental vacation the past few days. I'm watching TV and I hate TV. It is *that* bad. When I come back, I expect I'll do one of a few things. Do another iteration of typesafety.pm, write something on Perl Assembly, do the Perl 6 NOW thing for free and post it, talk to GNU Press again, or write a Perl 5/B backend for the Perl 6 compiler. The last would be an excellent hack, IMHO. It would solve the Ponie problem since Perl 6 would be running on the Perl 5 VM along with anything else from CPAN. Some things would have to be done in software - multiple dispatch for instance. It would also be ironic. The primary point to Perl 6 is to get rid of the nasty old Perl 5 guts. People don't care about the guts, and IMHO, they should be refactored and cleaned up, not rewritten. Rewritting large software programs is a disaster every time. Remember Netscape 5? Of course you don't. It doesn't exist. Or wasn't released or finished. Netscape worked for years trying to rewrite their browser from scratch while Microsoft eat their lunch. People aren't interested in which VM the language runs on, but they are interested in the new language features, so getting the experimental Perl 6 grammar to generate bytecode for the Perl 5 VM would be very cool and very practical. And it would piss a lot of people off. Which is usually my real goal. typesafety.pm pisses off the Python people - giving Perl true type safety while Python, supposedly all OO and stuff, goes without (bwahahaha!). http://perldesignpatterns.com got a facelift thanks to a volunteer off of the Internet. I added something where you can comment on pages without having to edit them. TinyWiki is still far more popular Perl Design Patterns. Considering the code, I think this says something: http://perldesignpatterns.com/?self - code to be ashamed of. Or proud of. Depending on your culture. Perl culture is pathological. Tell people that they can cleanly write large programs in Perl and they scoff. Write cryptic gibberish and they worship you. This excellent article was posted to PerlMonks: http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=285065 I'm scrottie on there, by the way. Simon, who posted that, is the one who has been helping with the Wiki. I'm trying to get content out of him but all he wants to do is hack on the engine and ActiveWikiPages code. From all of this - the downplaying of patterns, the hostility, the confusion, and outright resentment, I've desided that Patterns should be dropped from the name. "perldesign.com" is taken, however. Perl programmers aren't openly hostile to software engineering concepts and discussion of design - their eyes only glaze over. I mentioned some time back that my resume ranked very highly on Google for search terms such as "computer programmer resume" yet I got no jobs from it. A lot of prank pages, but no jobs. Curious what was putting people off, I put a survey thing on it. The number one survey item is "Dislike Perl". Perl programmers actively dislike Patterns and the world actively dislikes Perl. Fitting, perhaps. That is pretty much everyone on my mind Perl related. Your turn to pick up the conversation. I wish I could do something other than bitch, but I'm pretty fed up and burnt out right now. Atleast griping about Microsoft is generally amusing. Not to presume that everyone on this list cares what I've been up to, but if anyone has related thoughts or opinions it might be fuel for Perl related discussion. Best wishes, -scott On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM > To: Tom Achtenberg > Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. > > Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically > is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. > > Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some > bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). > > Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic > discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. > If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come > right out and say that. > > Best wishes, > -scott > > On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > > > Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM > > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > > > > Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things > > quickly! > > > > http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM > > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > > > > DONE, and passed it as as well; > > > > JB > > > > On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 > > > > > > EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make > > > them > > > aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney > > > general > > > on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a > > > dedicated > > > public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure > > > companies > > > follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer > > > complaints. > > > Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I > > > rant. > > > > > > So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to > > > bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence > > > at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want > > > to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. > > > > > > -scott > > > From scott at illogics.org Wed Sep 3 10:31:53 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Message-ID: <20030903153153.GE9574@illogics.org> Years and years ago, when there was an economy and I was a young lad, I had a job installing routers and PCs for a VAR that was selling to Circuit City or one of those companies. I forget. There were thousands and thousands of these machines. They were redoing their technical infrastructure in each location - new router, new server, new POS systems. The POS systems ran out of the box, so I never touched them. The server ran OS/2. Routers were Ciscos. Inhouse software spanked out custom configuration files that could be uploaded directly without need for any manual tweaks and all of the upstream IP addresses and such would be correct. Each server came with a little box full of software - a copy of OS/2, a copy of SCO, a few other things. You had to call and pay for it to get an activation code, but they tried to intice you into doing that with a nice boxed thing full of software. But this was before CD-ROMs were prevelent. So people were using floppies. Rather than throw them away, I saved them and took them home for my own use. In my mothers garage in Minnesota, I have a TV box full of thousands and thousands of floppy discs containing SCO. I'm not sure what all of this means. -scott On 0, intertwingled wrote: > > Does your company use SCO Unix or something? > > Tony > > Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > >OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] > >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM > >To: Tom Achtenberg > >Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > > > >Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. > > > >Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically > >is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. > > > >Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some > >bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). > > > >Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic > >discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. > >If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come > >right out and say that. > > > >Best wishes, > >-scott > > > >On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > > > > >>Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] > >>Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM > >>To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > >>Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > >> > >> > >>Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things > >>quickly! > >> > >>http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] > >>Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM > >>To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > >>Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > >> > >> > >>DONE, and passed it as as well; > >> > >>JB > >> > >>On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Hi, > >>> > >>>http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 > >>> > >>>EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make > >>>them > >>>aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney > >>>general > >>>on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a > >>>dedicated > >>>public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure > >>>companies > >>>follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer > >>>complaints. > >>>Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I > >>>rant. > >>> > >>>So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to > >>>bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence > >>>at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want > >>>to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. > >>> > >>>-scott > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > From intertwingled at qwest.net Wed Sep 3 10:42:44 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something In-Reply-To: <20030903152558.GD9574@illogics.org> References: <20030903152558.GD9574@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3F560BF4.7070508@qwest.net> Scott, shut up! =P Scott Walters wrote: >I don't remember posting anti-Microsoft rants to the list. I think you must >be thinking of an actual Perl Mongers meeting =) > >Well, let's see. On the Perl 6 internals list, the discussion of "why do we >need keyed varients for every access method" has cropped up yet >again. Dan is getting better and better at smacking that down and everyone >on the list for any period of time is really good at ignoring the whole >thing. The last Apocolypse (6) is extremely demanding of the language >side and it will take some time for the language people to catch up. >The Perl 6 grammar is useful for some simple things. The main drawback >is lack of anything like CPAN (yes, this is a more serious liability >than lack of objects). Hence PONIE was introduced, to make P5 run under >P6 by porting the guts of P5. Wouldn't it be easier to write a Parrot >gcc backend and automate the porting of the P5? I don't know. Perl >Design Patterns prompted an interesting exchange with Apress. For >those of you who don't know, I've been trying to sell Perl Design Patterns >to a publisher for some time. I've essentially ran the gauntlet of publishers. >I have 3 or 4 left to tap. The one thing I've learned is going through normal >channels does not work for someone without a recognizable name like myself. >I got Apress attention for a while because it turns out they had already >signed a deal with someone else (who IMHO is butchering the idea). >There was some discussion of different ideas that could be done. They >fainted lack of interest in the subject, not wanting to leak that they >were working on it and as soon as it was announced, stopped returning >my emails. I'm feeling a little abused after that. We had been >seriously discussion doing something called "Perl 6 NOW", where >ideas slated to be introduced in the Perl language in Perl 6 would >be demonstrated in Perl 5 in a back-ported form. There are a huge >number of these - from the Coro module (giving you coroutines >and continuations in Perl) to object oriented error handling to >switch, the Perl6::* tree on CPAN, PDL, Class::Multimethods, Next.pm, >threads::shared, Concurrent::Object for OO thread interface, Sub::Lexical for >lexically scoped subroutines, Quantum::Suppositions for any() and all() like >behavior, and some other stuff. I thought it was rather brilliant. They're >probably paying someone else to do it now using my outline and proposal. >Bastards. So I'm thinking of doing a free version and trying to beat >them to the punch. And taking on another major documentation project. >Or maybe it is retarded and I just haven't realized this yet. The >last major thing I was thinking of biting off someone beat me to - >Coro.pm. If you aren't familiar with the idea of a coroutine (which >will be in Perl 6 core), it goes something like this: a subroutine >can return, but unreturn later. It's lexical context is kept in >tact. Of course, "return" and "unreturn" aren't the keywords used. >That would be strange. Threads are complex and race conditions >and dataflow between threads confuse the heck out of people. Very >few people can code threads effectively. Coroutines provide a similar >service but tend to be more easily grasped by novices and more >easily handled by experts. It is a kind of cooperative multitasking, >you might say. Very handy for things like select() loops that >wait for activity on a number of filehandles. Things like POE try >to solve this, but your handler is called and has to finish >executing and return, so it can't do things like store context >in variables on the stack. It can't have any stack at all. It >has to return. Hence, Coro is a far more powerful replacement >for POE and comes with the infrastructure you'd expect. Very nifty. >As I said, I was just starting to play with the idea of doing something >similar. I resisted the urge to chronical my communications with >publishers for a long time, as I've not seen other people talk >about these rather senstive dealings, but I've essentially lost >the battle at this point and I'm feeling rather pent up, so I'm dropping >the facade. And I want to get this off my chest. This has been a huge >source of frustration and anxiety. My first serious contact was GNU Press. >They were pleasent, responsive, and encouraging, but unable to offer >anything in the way of editorial guidance, though this may have changed. >I'm due to talk to them again. If I do and something happens, then >the shroud of secerecy wouldn't be needed. As noted, I talked to Apress >for a while. Towards the tail end of that, I was talking to Nathan >Torkington for a while. You might remember him from the Perl Cookbook. >ORA made him the security editor, and I had the pleasure of meeting him >at DEFCON. I dropped him an email mentioning my mission after the >fact and managed two email turnarounds before he stopped responding. >ORA had previously completely ignored the proposal. Since it takes >a day to put a proposal according to a publishers template and spin >everything for them, not hearing back with even a "thanks but not >thanks" is a real slap to the face. This is exactly the treatment >I got from about 20 publishers. And yes, I spell check those ;) >Reguardless, Nathan is a very cool guy, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he >is just painfully busy. I'll have to start thinking about doing Perl conferances. >On the other hand, I hate bugging busy people with my petty concerns. >Trying to talk to publishers makes you feel very small and very stupid, >and I'm feeling very grateful for Phoenix Perl Mongers through this >whole thing, for not making me feel small and stupid, and being >in fact a receptive encouraging resource. Between that and >client abuse overload, I've taken a mental vacation the past >few days. I'm watching TV and I hate TV. It is *that* bad. When >I come back, I expect I'll do one of a few things. Do another >iteration of typesafety.pm, write something on Perl Assembly, >do the Perl 6 NOW thing for free and post it, talk to GNU Press >again, or write a Perl 5/B backend for the Perl 6 compiler. >The last would be an excellent hack, IMHO. It would solve the >Ponie problem since Perl 6 would be running on the Perl 5 VM >along with anything else from CPAN. Some things would have to >be done in software - multiple dispatch for instance. It would >also be ironic. The primary point to Perl 6 is to get rid of >the nasty old Perl 5 guts. People don't care about the guts, >and IMHO, they should be refactored and cleaned up, not rewritten. >Rewritting large software programs is a disaster every time. >Remember Netscape 5? Of course you don't. It doesn't exist. Or >wasn't released or finished. Netscape worked for years trying to >rewrite their browser from scratch while Microsoft eat their >lunch. People aren't interested in which VM the language runs >on, but they are interested in the new language features, so >getting the experimental Perl 6 grammar to generate bytecode >for the Perl 5 VM would be very cool and very practical. And it would >piss a lot of people off. Which is usually my real goal. typesafety.pm >pisses off the Python people - giving Perl true type safety while >Python, supposedly all OO and stuff, goes without (bwahahaha!). >http://perldesignpatterns.com got a facelift thanks to a volunteer >off of the Internet. I added something where you can comment >on pages without having to edit them. TinyWiki is still far >more popular Perl Design Patterns. Considering the code, I think >this says something: http://perldesignpatterns.com/?self - >code to be ashamed of. Or proud of. Depending on your culture. >Perl culture is pathological. Tell people that they can cleanly >write large programs in Perl and they scoff. Write cryptic >gibberish and they worship you. This excellent article >was posted to PerlMonks: http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=285065 >I'm scrottie on there, by the way. Simon, who posted that, is the >one who has been helping with the Wiki. I'm trying to get >content out of him but all he wants to do is hack on the engine >and ActiveWikiPages code. From all of this - the downplaying >of patterns, the hostility, the confusion, and outright >resentment, I've desided that Patterns should be dropped >from the name. "perldesign.com" is taken, however. Perl programmers >aren't openly hostile to software engineering concepts and >discussion of design - their eyes only glaze over. I mentioned >some time back that my resume ranked very highly on >Google for search terms such as "computer programmer resume" yet >I got no jobs from it. A lot of prank pages, but no jobs. Curious >what was putting people off, I put a survey thing on it. The number >one survey item is "Dislike Perl". Perl programmers actively >dislike Patterns and the world actively dislikes Perl. Fitting, >perhaps. That is pretty much everyone on my mind Perl related. >Your turn to pick up the conversation. I wish I could do >something other than bitch, but I'm pretty fed up and burnt out >right now. Atleast griping about Microsoft is generally amusing. >Not to presume that everyone on this list cares what I've >been up to, but if anyone has related thoughts or opinions >it might be fuel for Perl related discussion. > >Best wishes, >-scott > > >On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > >>OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] >>Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM >>To: Tom Achtenberg >>Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >>Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >> >> >>Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. >> >>Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically >>is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. >> >>Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some >>bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). >> >>Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic >>discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. >>If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come >>right out and say that. >> >>Best wishes, >>-scott >> >>On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: >> >> >>>Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] >>>Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM >>>To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' >>>Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >>> >>> >>>Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things >>>quickly! >>> >>>http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] >>>Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM >>>To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >>> >>> >>>DONE, and passed it as as well; >>> >>>JB >>> >>>On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hi, >>>> >>>>http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 >>>> >>>>EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make >>>>them >>>>aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney >>>>general >>>>on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a >>>>dedicated >>>>public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure >>>>companies >>>>follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer >>>>complaints. >>>>Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I >>>>rant. >>>> >>>>So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to >>>>bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence >>>>at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want >>>>to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. >>>> >>>>-scott >>>> >>>> >>>> > > > > From billn at billn.net Wed Sep 3 11:04:19 2003 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something In-Reply-To: <20030903152558.GD9574@illogics.org> Message-ID: man. I hope you started your book off with 'use Paragraphs;' ;) - billn On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Scott Walters wrote: > I don't remember posting anti-Microsoft rants to the list. I think you must > be thinking of an actual Perl Mongers meeting =) > > Well, let's see. On the Perl 6 internals list, the discussion of "why do we > need keyed varients for every access method" has cropped up yet > again. Dan is getting better and better at smacking that down and everyone > on the list for any period of time is really good at ignoring the whole > thing. The last Apocolypse (6) is extremely demanding of the language > side and it will take some time for the language people to catch up. > The Perl 6 grammar is useful for some simple things. The main drawback > is lack of anything like CPAN (yes, this is a more serious liability > than lack of objects). Hence PONIE was introduced, to make P5 run under > P6 by porting the guts of P5. Wouldn't it be easier to write a Parrot > gcc backend and automate the porting of the P5? I don't know. Perl > Design Patterns prompted an interesting exchange with Apress. For > those of you who don't know, I've been trying to sell Perl Design Patterns > to a publisher for some time. I've essentially ran the gauntlet of publishers. > I have 3 or 4 left to tap. The one thing I've learned is going through normal > channels does not work for someone without a recognizable name like myself. > I got Apress attention for a while because it turns out they had already > signed a deal with someone else (who IMHO is butchering the idea). > There was some discussion of different ideas that could be done. They > fainted lack of interest in the subject, not wanting to leak that they > were working on it and as soon as it was announced, stopped returning > my emails. I'm feeling a little abused after that. We had been > seriously discussion doing something called "Perl 6 NOW", where > ideas slated to be introduced in the Perl language in Perl 6 would > be demonstrated in Perl 5 in a back-ported form. There are a huge > number of these - from the Coro module (giving you coroutines > and continuations in Perl) to object oriented error handling to > switch, the Perl6::* tree on CPAN, PDL, Class::Multimethods, Next.pm, > threads::shared, Concurrent::Object for OO thread interface, Sub::Lexical for > lexically scoped subroutines, Quantum::Suppositions for any() and all() like > behavior, and some other stuff. I thought it was rather brilliant. They're > probably paying someone else to do it now using my outline and proposal. > Bastards. So I'm thinking of doing a free version and trying to beat > them to the punch. And taking on another major documentation project. > Or maybe it is retarded and I just haven't realized this yet. The > last major thing I was thinking of biting off someone beat me to - > Coro.pm. If you aren't familiar with the idea of a coroutine (which > will be in Perl 6 core), it goes something like this: a subroutine > can return, but unreturn later. It's lexical context is kept in > tact. Of course, "return" and "unreturn" aren't the keywords used. > That would be strange. Threads are complex and race conditions > and dataflow between threads confuse the heck out of people. Very > few people can code threads effectively. Coroutines provide a similar > service but tend to be more easily grasped by novices and more > easily handled by experts. It is a kind of cooperative multitasking, > you might say. Very handy for things like select() loops that > wait for activity on a number of filehandles. Things like POE try > to solve this, but your handler is called and has to finish > executing and return, so it can't do things like store context > in variables on the stack. It can't have any stack at all. It > has to return. Hence, Coro is a far more powerful replacement > for POE and comes with the infrastructure you'd expect. Very nifty. > As I said, I was just starting to play with the idea of doing something > similar. I resisted the urge to chronical my communications with > publishers for a long time, as I've not seen other people talk > about these rather senstive dealings, but I've essentially lost > the battle at this point and I'm feeling rather pent up, so I'm dropping > the facade. And I want to get this off my chest. This has been a huge > source of frustration and anxiety. My first serious contact was GNU Press. > They were pleasent, responsive, and encouraging, but unable to offer > anything in the way of editorial guidance, though this may have changed. > I'm due to talk to them again. If I do and something happens, then > the shroud of secerecy wouldn't be needed. As noted, I talked to Apress > for a while. Towards the tail end of that, I was talking to Nathan > Torkington for a while. You might remember him from the Perl Cookbook. > ORA made him the security editor, and I had the pleasure of meeting him > at DEFCON. I dropped him an email mentioning my mission after the > fact and managed two email turnarounds before he stopped responding. > ORA had previously completely ignored the proposal. Since it takes > a day to put a proposal according to a publishers template and spin > everything for them, not hearing back with even a "thanks but not > thanks" is a real slap to the face. This is exactly the treatment > I got from about 20 publishers. And yes, I spell check those ;) > Reguardless, Nathan is a very cool guy, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he > is just painfully busy. I'll have to start thinking about doing Perl conferances. > On the other hand, I hate bugging busy people with my petty concerns. > Trying to talk to publishers makes you feel very small and very stupid, > and I'm feeling very grateful for Phoenix Perl Mongers through this > whole thing, for not making me feel small and stupid, and being > in fact a receptive encouraging resource. Between that and > client abuse overload, I've taken a mental vacation the past > few days. I'm watching TV and I hate TV. It is *that* bad. When > I come back, I expect I'll do one of a few things. Do another > iteration of typesafety.pm, write something on Perl Assembly, > do the Perl 6 NOW thing for free and post it, talk to GNU Press > again, or write a Perl 5/B backend for the Perl 6 compiler. > The last would be an excellent hack, IMHO. It would solve the > Ponie problem since Perl 6 would be running on the Perl 5 VM > along with anything else from CPAN. Some things would have to > be done in software - multiple dispatch for instance. It would > also be ironic. The primary point to Perl 6 is to get rid of > the nasty old Perl 5 guts. People don't care about the guts, > and IMHO, they should be refactored and cleaned up, not rewritten. > Rewritting large software programs is a disaster every time. > Remember Netscape 5? Of course you don't. It doesn't exist. Or > wasn't released or finished. Netscape worked for years trying to > rewrite their browser from scratch while Microsoft eat their > lunch. People aren't interested in which VM the language runs > on, but they are interested in the new language features, so > getting the experimental Perl 6 grammar to generate bytecode > for the Perl 5 VM would be very cool and very practical. And it would > piss a lot of people off. Which is usually my real goal. typesafety.pm > pisses off the Python people - giving Perl true type safety while > Python, supposedly all OO and stuff, goes without (bwahahaha!). > http://perldesignpatterns.com got a facelift thanks to a volunteer > off of the Internet. I added something where you can comment > on pages without having to edit them. TinyWiki is still far > more popular Perl Design Patterns. Considering the code, I think > this says something: http://perldesignpatterns.com/?self - > code to be ashamed of. Or proud of. Depending on your culture. > Perl culture is pathological. Tell people that they can cleanly > write large programs in Perl and they scoff. Write cryptic > gibberish and they worship you. This excellent article > was posted to PerlMonks: http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=285065 > I'm scrottie on there, by the way. Simon, who posted that, is the > one who has been helping with the Wiki. I'm trying to get > content out of him but all he wants to do is hack on the engine > and ActiveWikiPages code. From all of this - the downplaying > of patterns, the hostility, the confusion, and outright > resentment, I've desided that Patterns should be dropped > from the name. "perldesign.com" is taken, however. Perl programmers > aren't openly hostile to software engineering concepts and > discussion of design - their eyes only glaze over. I mentioned > some time back that my resume ranked very highly on > Google for search terms such as "computer programmer resume" yet > I got no jobs from it. A lot of prank pages, but no jobs. Curious > what was putting people off, I put a survey thing on it. The number > one survey item is "Dislike Perl". Perl programmers actively > dislike Patterns and the world actively dislikes Perl. Fitting, > perhaps. That is pretty much everyone on my mind Perl related. > Your turn to pick up the conversation. I wish I could do > something other than bitch, but I'm pretty fed up and burnt out > right now. Atleast griping about Microsoft is generally amusing. > Not to presume that everyone on this list cares what I've > been up to, but if anyone has related thoughts or opinions > it might be fuel for Perl related discussion. > > Best wishes, > -scott > > > On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > > > OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM > > To: Tom Achtenberg > > Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > > > > Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. > > > > Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically > > is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. > > > > Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some > > bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). > > > > Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic > > discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. > > If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come > > right out and say that. > > > > Best wishes, > > -scott > > > > On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > > > > > Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM > > > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > > > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > > > > > > > Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things > > > quickly! > > > > > > http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] > > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM > > > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > > > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > > > > > > > > DONE, and passed it as as well; > > > > > > JB > > > > > > On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 > > > > > > > > EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make > > > > them > > > > aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney > > > > general > > > > on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a > > > > dedicated > > > > public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure > > > > companies > > > > follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer > > > > complaints. > > > > Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I > > > > rant. > > > > > > > > So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to > > > > bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence > > > > at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want > > > > to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. > > > > > > > > -scott > > > > > From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Sep 3 11:47:18 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something References: <20030903054827.GV9574@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3F561B16.9030202@bpxinternet.com> Scott Walters wrote: > Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. > > Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically > is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. > > Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some > bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). > > Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic > discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. > If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come > right out and say that. > > Best wishes, > -scott Sometimes I just like to see any dicussion at all, so I know you're all still alive. ;) From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Sep 3 12:03:32 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 Message-ID: <3F561EE4.9090605@bpxinternet.com> Please RSVP... We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also be presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Sep 3 12:08:22 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Getting published (was SCO and EFF -- do something) References: <20030903152558.GD9574@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3F562006.5000305@bpxinternet.com> Scott Walters wrote: > Perl > Design Patterns prompted an interesting exchange with Apress. For > those of you who don't know, I've been trying to sell Perl Design Patterns > to a publisher for some time. I've essentially ran the gauntlet of publishers. > I have 3 or 4 left to tap. The one thing I've learned is going through normal > channels does not work for someone without a recognizable name like myself. Why don't you try getting an article published on perl.com first? You'll get your name out there, and have a published example of your work. This is something I'm considering doing. The main problem I have to overcome is that I hate writing. :) From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Sep 3 12:11:55 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Perl 101 & 201 Message-ID: <3F5620DB.7090601@bpxinternet.com> I'd like to see if there is any interest in me presenting Perl 101 and 201 again. If you are interested, please let me know at doug.miles@bpxinternet.com. If there is sufficient interest, I'll schedule the presentations sometime in the near future. From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Wed Sep 3 12:27:01 2003 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something In-Reply-To: <3F561B16.9030202@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: Speaking of discussion, when is the next in-person meeting of Phoenix.pm? -- Mike Friedman On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 09:47 AM, Doug Miles wrote: > Scott Walters wrote: >> Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. >> Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and >> politically >> is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of >> Perl. >> Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had >> some >> bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and >> on). >> Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less >> off-topic >> discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered >> on-topic. >> If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come >> right out and say that. >> Best wishes, >> -scott > > Sometimes I just like to see any dicussion at all, so I know you're > all still alive. ;) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From TomA at fh.org Wed Sep 3 12:45:19 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE013636B1@EXCHANGE> No we do not. -----Original Message----- From: intertwingled [mailto:intertwingled@qwest.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 7:50 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something Does your company use SCO Unix or something? Tony Tom Achtenberg wrote: >OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM >To: Tom Achtenberg >Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something > > >Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. > >Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and politically >is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of Perl. > >Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had some >bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and on). > >Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less off-topic >discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered on-topic. >If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come >right out and say that. > >Best wishes, >-scott > >On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > > >>Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM >>To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' >>Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >> >> >>Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things >>quickly! >> >>http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] >>Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM >>To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >>Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >> >> >>DONE, and passed it as as well; >> >>JB >> >>On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 >>> >>>EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to make >>>them >>>aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney >>>general >>>on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a >>>dedicated >>>public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure >>>companies >>>follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer >>>complaints. >>>Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I >>>rant. >>> >>>So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to >>>bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any evidence >>>at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did want >>>to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. >>> >>>-scott >>> >>> >>> > > > > From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Wed Sep 3 12:38:15 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something References: Message-ID: <3F562707.9000502@bpxinternet.com> Michael Friedman wrote: > Speaking of discussion, when is the next in-person meeting of Phoenix.pm? > > -- Mike Friedman I just sent the announcement out. The meeting is tomorrow night. From scott at illogics.org Wed Sep 3 12:54:09 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 Message-ID: <20030903175409.GJ9574@illogics.org> Woohoo! Tim again gracially offered to pick me up, so, time permitting, I'll speak briefly about typesafety.pm. Previous lack of type safety has been a foremost reason for some to call Perl "not really object oriented". Even if you code without it, you don't really understand OO until you understand type safety. Boy, I hope Kurt can make it. He'll looooove this. -scott On 0, Doug Miles wrote: > > Please RSVP... > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also be > presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. > > From johngnub at cox.net Wed Sep 3 22:04:13 2003 From: johngnub at cox.net (johnb) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something In-Reply-To: <20030903152558.GD9574@illogics.org> Message-ID: <7667F27E-DE84-11D7-9409-000A9585B970@cox.net> I still have Perl 4 source on cd... Does that count? On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 08:25 AM, Scott Walters wrote: > I don't remember posting anti-Microsoft rants to the list. I think you > must > be thinking of an actual Perl Mongers meeting =) > > Well, let's see. On the Perl 6 internals list, the discussion of "why > do we > need keyed varients for every access method" has cropped up yet > again. Dan is getting better and better at smacking that down and > everyone > on the list for any period of time is really good at ignoring the whole > thing. The last Apocolypse (6) is extremely demanding of the language > side and it will take some time for the language people to catch up. > The Perl 6 grammar is useful for some simple things. The main drawback > is lack of anything like CPAN (yes, this is a more serious liability > than lack of objects). Hence PONIE was introduced, to make P5 run under > P6 by porting the guts of P5. Wouldn't it be easier to write a Parrot > gcc backend and automate the porting of the P5? I don't know. Perl > Design Patterns prompted an interesting exchange with Apress. For > those of you who don't know, I've been trying to sell Perl Design > Patterns > to a publisher for some time. I've essentially ran the gauntlet of > publishers. > I have 3 or 4 left to tap. The one thing I've learned is going through > normal > channels does not work for someone without a recognizable name like > myself. > I got Apress attention for a while because it turns out they had > already > signed a deal with someone else (who IMHO is butchering the idea). > There was some discussion of different ideas that could be done. They > fainted lack of interest in the subject, not wanting to leak that they > were working on it and as soon as it was announced, stopped returning > my emails. I'm feeling a little abused after that. We had been > seriously discussion doing something called "Perl 6 NOW", where > ideas slated to be introduced in the Perl language in Perl 6 would > be demonstrated in Perl 5 in a back-ported form. There are a huge > number of these - from the Coro module (giving you coroutines > and continuations in Perl) to object oriented error handling to > switch, the Perl6::* tree on CPAN, PDL, Class::Multimethods, Next.pm, > threads::shared, Concurrent::Object for OO thread interface, > Sub::Lexical for > lexically scoped subroutines, Quantum::Suppositions for any() and > all() like > behavior, and some other stuff. I thought it was rather brilliant. > They're > probably paying someone else to do it now using my outline and > proposal. > Bastards. So I'm thinking of doing a free version and trying to beat > them to the punch. And taking on another major documentation project. > Or maybe it is retarded and I just haven't realized this yet. The > last major thing I was thinking of biting off someone beat me to - > Coro.pm. If you aren't familiar with the idea of a coroutine (which > will be in Perl 6 core), it goes something like this: a subroutine > can return, but unreturn later. It's lexical context is kept in > tact. Of course, "return" and "unreturn" aren't the keywords used. > That would be strange. Threads are complex and race conditions > and dataflow between threads confuse the heck out of people. Very > few people can code threads effectively. Coroutines provide a similar > service but tend to be more easily grasped by novices and more > easily handled by experts. It is a kind of cooperative multitasking, > you might say. Very handy for things like select() loops that > wait for activity on a number of filehandles. Things like POE try > to solve this, but your handler is called and has to finish > executing and return, so it can't do things like store context > in variables on the stack. It can't have any stack at all. It > has to return. Hence, Coro is a far more powerful replacement > for POE and comes with the infrastructure you'd expect. Very nifty. > As I said, I was just starting to play with the idea of doing something > similar. I resisted the urge to chronical my communications with > publishers for a long time, as I've not seen other people talk > about these rather senstive dealings, but I've essentially lost > the battle at this point and I'm feeling rather pent up, so I'm > dropping > the facade. And I want to get this off my chest. This has been a huge > source of frustration and anxiety. My first serious contact was GNU > Press. > They were pleasent, responsive, and encouraging, but unable to offer > anything in the way of editorial guidance, though this may have > changed. > I'm due to talk to them again. If I do and something happens, then > the shroud of secerecy wouldn't be needed. As noted, I talked to Apress > for a while. Towards the tail end of that, I was talking to Nathan > Torkington for a while. You might remember him from the Perl Cookbook. > ORA made him the security editor, and I had the pleasure of meeting him > at DEFCON. I dropped him an email mentioning my mission after the > fact and managed two email turnarounds before he stopped responding. > ORA had previously completely ignored the proposal. Since it takes > a day to put a proposal according to a publishers template and spin > everything for them, not hearing back with even a "thanks but not > thanks" is a real slap to the face. This is exactly the treatment > I got from about 20 publishers. And yes, I spell check those ;) > Reguardless, Nathan is a very cool guy, and I have no doubt whatsoever > that he > is just painfully busy. I'll have to start thinking about doing Perl > conferances. > On the other hand, I hate bugging busy people with my petty concerns. > Trying to talk to publishers makes you feel very small and very stupid, > and I'm feeling very grateful for Phoenix Perl Mongers through this > whole thing, for not making me feel small and stupid, and being > in fact a receptive encouraging resource. Between that and > client abuse overload, I've taken a mental vacation the past > few days. I'm watching TV and I hate TV. It is *that* bad. When > I come back, I expect I'll do one of a few things. Do another > iteration of typesafety.pm, write something on Perl Assembly, > do the Perl 6 NOW thing for free and post it, talk to GNU Press > again, or write a Perl 5/B backend for the Perl 6 compiler. > The last would be an excellent hack, IMHO. It would solve the > Ponie problem since Perl 6 would be running on the Perl 5 VM > along with anything else from CPAN. Some things would have to > be done in software - multiple dispatch for instance. It would > also be ironic. The primary point to Perl 6 is to get rid of > the nasty old Perl 5 guts. People don't care about the guts, > and IMHO, they should be refactored and cleaned up, not rewritten. > Rewritting large software programs is a disaster every time. > Remember Netscape 5? Of course you don't. It doesn't exist. Or > wasn't released or finished. Netscape worked for years trying to > rewrite their browser from scratch while Microsoft eat their > lunch. People aren't interested in which VM the language runs > on, but they are interested in the new language features, so > getting the experimental Perl 6 grammar to generate bytecode > for the Perl 5 VM would be very cool and very practical. And it would > piss a lot of people off. Which is usually my real goal. typesafety.pm > pisses off the Python people - giving Perl true type safety while > Python, supposedly all OO and stuff, goes without (bwahahaha!). > http://perldesignpatterns.com got a facelift thanks to a volunteer > off of the Internet. I added something where you can comment > on pages without having to edit them. TinyWiki is still far > more popular Perl Design Patterns. Considering the code, I think > this says something: http://perldesignpatterns.com/?self - > code to be ashamed of. Or proud of. Depending on your culture. > Perl culture is pathological. Tell people that they can cleanly > write large programs in Perl and they scoff. Write cryptic > gibberish and they worship you. This excellent article > was posted to PerlMonks: http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=285065 > I'm scrottie on there, by the way. Simon, who posted that, is the > one who has been helping with the Wiki. I'm trying to get > content out of him but all he wants to do is hack on the engine > and ActiveWikiPages code. From all of this - the downplaying > of patterns, the hostility, the confusion, and outright > resentment, I've desided that Patterns should be dropped > from the name. "perldesign.com" is taken, however. Perl programmers > aren't openly hostile to software engineering concepts and > discussion of design - their eyes only glaze over. I mentioned > some time back that my resume ranked very highly on > Google for search terms such as "computer programmer resume" yet > I got no jobs from it. A lot of prank pages, but no jobs. Curious > what was putting people off, I put a survey thing on it. The number > one survey item is "Dislike Perl". Perl programmers actively > dislike Patterns and the world actively dislikes Perl. Fitting, > perhaps. That is pretty much everyone on my mind Perl related. > Your turn to pick up the conversation. I wish I could do > something other than bitch, but I'm pretty fed up and burnt out > right now. Atleast griping about Microsoft is generally amusing. > Not to presume that everyone on this list cares what I've > been up to, but if anyone has related thoughts or opinions > it might be fuel for Perl related discussion. > > Best wishes, > -scott > > > On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: >> >> OK, I'll come right out and say it. I do not want to see political >> discussions on this list. Since Perl is cross platform anti >> Microsoft rants don't belong here either. There are plenty of other >> lists out there if you need to forward petitions and whine about >> Microsoft. Lets keep this one to the topic at hand, Perl. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott Walters [mailto:scott@illogics.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:48 PM >> To: Tom Achtenberg >> Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >> Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >> >> >> Perl. That makes this discussion off-topic. >> >> Atleast mostly off-topic. The state of Free Software legally and >> politically >> is interesting to people involved in the gospel and development of >> Perl. >> >> Like any good off-topic discussion, it is being kept short. We've had >> some >> bad off-topic dicussions on here (programming licensing went on and >> on). >> >> Now, there is a chance you meant to imply you wanted to see less >> off-topic >> discussion and you weren't merely asking if this was considered >> on-topic. >> If that is the case, I don't think anyone will be offended if you come >> right out and say that. >> >> Best wishes, >> -scott >> >> On 0, Tom Achtenberg wrote: >>> >>> Is this a Perl discussion list or a political discussion list? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Elston, Jeremy [mailto:Jeremy.Elston@schwab.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:53 AM >>> To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' >>> Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >>> >>> >>> Gotta love those Germans. They sure know how to take care of things >>> quickly! >>> >>> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/anw-02.09.03-000/ >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: johnb [mailto:johngnub@cox.net] >>> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:14 PM >>> To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org >>> Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: SCO and EFF -- do something >>> >>> >>> DONE, and passed it as as well; >>> >>> JB >>> >>> On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Scott Walters wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> http://action.eff.org/postcard/index.asp?2003082995488702 >>>> >>>> EFF is doing a letter writing, fax, emai, campaign to congress to >>>> make >>>> them >>>> aware of SCO's extortion. A little pressure can sick an attorney >>>> general >>>> on SCO, and as you know, the attorney general is something of a >>>> dedicated >>>> public prosectuor with an an office full of lawyers making sure >>>> companies >>>> follow the law too and they act primarily in response to consumer >>>> complaints. >>>> Fraud, false advertising, and extortion are all on their list. But I >>>> rant. >>>> >>>> So, anyway, if you happen to think that sueing people for money to >>>> bolster their case against IBM while refusing to provide any >>>> evidence >>>> at all for people to make up their own mind with even if you did >>>> want >>>> to settle your debts is fraud, send a fax. >>>> >>>> -scott >>>> > From johngnub at cox.net Wed Sep 3 22:07:42 2003 From: johngnub at cox.net (johnb) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 In-Reply-To: <3F561EE4.9090605@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: Sorry; working the late shift; Chat () in a few... On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 10:03 AM, Doug Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also > be presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. > > From MikeMcNally at prodigy.net Wed Sep 3 23:27:43 2003 From: MikeMcNally at prodigy.net (Mike McNally) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 References: <3F561EE4.9090605@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <002301c3729c$e367c840$df164bab@c366> I will attend the meeting tomorrow. It will be my first perl mongers meeting. I am new in the Phoenix area. Mike McNally ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Miles" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 > Please RSVP... > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also be > presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. > > From scott at illogics.org Wed Sep 3 23:45:11 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 Message-ID: <20030904044511.GN9574@illogics.org> Well, welcome to Phoenix. There have been a few first timers lately so maybe I'll be lucky enough to see some of them back again too. -scott On 0, Mike McNally wrote: > > I will attend the meeting tomorrow. It will be my first perl mongers > meeting. I am new in the Phoenix area. > > Mike McNally > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Miles" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:03 AM > Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 > > > > Please RSVP... > > > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. > > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > > > I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also be > > presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. > > > > > From jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com Thu Sep 4 00:12:28 2003 From: jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com (Jason Riedel) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 References: <20030904044511.GN9574@illogics.org> Message-ID: <00b001c372a3$25adf8e0$42021eac@PHXRIEDELJ> I am going to try to make it as well guys, I looked forward to meeting everyone. Jason Riedel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Walters" To: "Mike McNally" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 > Well, welcome to Phoenix. There have been a few first timers lately so > maybe I'll be lucky enough to see some of them back again too. > > -scott > > On 0, Mike McNally wrote: > > > > I will attend the meeting tomorrow. It will be my first perl mongers > > meeting. I am new in the Phoenix area. > > > > Mike McNally > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Miles" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:03 AM > > Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 > > > > > > > Please RSVP... > > > > > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. > > > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > > > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > > > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > > > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > > > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > > > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > > > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > > > > > I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also be > > > presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. > > > > > > > > > From tom at squawpeak.us Thu Sep 4 09:26:46 2003 From: tom at squawpeak.us (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 In-Reply-To: <3F561EE4.9090605@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: I would love to make it as a first timer but my company is moving buildings today and it's going to be a late night. Hopefully I can make the next one ant tell about the week long Perl class I'm going to in 2 weeks. Same class is offered here in Phoenix in October. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Doug Miles [mailto:doug.miles@bpxinternet.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:04 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 Please RSVP... We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also be presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003 From tran_fors at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 10:08:31 2003 From: tran_fors at yahoo.com (Tran Forsythe) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 References: <20030903175409.GJ9574@illogics.org> Message-ID: <005f01c372f6$6bd49100$0101a8c0@dario> *chuckle* Sure, long story short I think I'll be able to squeak in there by 7pm. Looking forward to it, man ;) (Though you have Doug to thank for giving my lazy butt a ring to remind me) -Kurt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Walters" To: "Doug Miles" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 > Woohoo! Tim again gracially offered to pick me up, so, time permitting, > I'll speak briefly about typesafety.pm. Previous lack of type safety > has been a foremost reason for some to call Perl "not really object oriented". > Even if you code without it, you don't really understand OO until > you understand type safety. Boy, I hope Kurt can make it. He'll > looooove this. > > -scott > > On 0, Doug Miles wrote: > > > > Please RSVP... > > > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 4th at 7:00PM. > > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > > > I will be presenting "Exploring the WxWindows XRC". Scott might also be > > presenting something if there is time, and he can make it. > > > > From wlindley at wlindley.com Thu Sep 4 13:05:25 2003 From: wlindley at wlindley.com (William Lindley) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 In-Reply-To: <002301c3729c$e367c840$df164bab@c366> Message-ID: regrets... still recovering from broken wrist (breakdancing, if you can believe) \\/ From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Thu Sep 4 13:47:34 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: new book cover parody Message-ID: <16215.35014.592005.85342@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> http://fun.from.hell.pl/2003-09-04/p6_cover.gif Mwahahaha. David From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Thu Sep 4 13:42:26 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/4/2003 References: Message-ID: <3F578792.3060208@bpxinternet.com> William Lindley wrote: > regrets... still recovering from broken wrist (breakdancing, if you can > believe) > > \\/ > > *Sniff* I smell a pun here... :) Get better soon. From brooksj at asu.edu Thu Sep 4 18:49:27 2003 From: brooksj at asu.edu (Jo Brooks) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: [fwd] Wanted: Programmer of C/C++, Perl, PHP, SQL Message-ID: <200309042349.h84NnRL5012682@enws948.eas.asu.edu> (not affiliated in any way, just passing info on) ----- Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:40:11 +0000 From: Paul Davis To: aztech-work@yahoogroups.com Subject: [aztech-work] Wanted: Programmer of C/C++, Perl, PHP, SQL Wanted: Programmer of C/C++, Perl, PHP, SQL Contract to Perm position has just opened up with a local company based in Tempe. The position requires: - in-depth knowledge & experience developing C/C++ & Perl apps - experience with Linux environments Also highly preferred: - experience with MySQL and PostgreSQL Databases - experience with Apache - experienced in Linux system admin - experience in PHP/XML/Zope The company is looking for a self starter, who wants to grow with the company. This position offers a high level independence and creativity. The company is only looking for the brightest individuals. This is a highly critical position to the company. Are you up to it? email resumes to davispc@hotmail.com in TEXT format. Please give contact numbers and best times to reach you in your email. Sincerely, Paul Davis ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jo Brooks, Tech Support Analyst, Sr brooksj at asu dot edu Arizona State University Telecommunications Research Center "This is a Unix system...I know this!" From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Fri Sep 5 14:52:40 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:04 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Links Message-ID: <3F58E988.6030705@bpxinternet.com> Here are some links regarding my presentation: http://www.wxwindows.org/ http://wxperl.sourceforge.net/ http://xrced.sourceforge.net/ http://par.perl.org/ From tom at squawpeak.us Sun Sep 7 13:24:20 2003 From: tom at squawpeak.us (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Editor Message-ID: I'm looking for a windows editor along the lines of the Kate editor that is part of the KDE desktop. Anyone know of something like that? Tom Achtenberg .US and .biz domains on sale for $4.95 per year thru 9/30/03 Register your own domain for as low as $7.95 per year. Transfers too! http://www.ybnormal.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/phoenix-pm/attachments/20030907/b1154311/attachment.htm From wlindley at wlindley.com Sun Sep 7 18:22:29 2003 From: wlindley at wlindley.com (William Lindley) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Editor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For years I've used TextPad -- http://www.textpad.com \\/ http://www.wlindley.com From johngnub at cox.net Sun Sep 7 19:22:37 2003 From: johngnub at cox.net (johnb) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Editor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CE8E001-E192-11D7-89D4-000A9585B970@cox.net> Emacs! On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 11:24 AM, Tom Achtenberg wrote: > I'm looking for a windows editor along the lines of the Kate editor > that is part of the KDE desktop.? Anyone know of something like that? > ? > Tom Achtenberg > ? > ? > .US and .biz?domains on sale for $4.95 per year thru 9/30/03 > Register your own domain for as low as $7.95 per year.? Transfers too! > http://www.ybnormal.com > ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/phoenix-pm/attachments/20030907/5dd51290/attachment.bin From jennykitten1 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 19:20:50 2003 From: jennykitten1 at yahoo.com (Kitty) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help Message-ID: <1063326024.15786.9.camel@moo.wpa.nan> I'm thinking about a project, but am a little over my head, and don't have the time to learn what I need to learn to implement it. So I was wondering if someone would be willing to lend a hand on a Perl & mySQL project, w/ a simple web interface. It sort of a sensitive project, and don't want to go into the details here, but would appreciate hearing from someone that could help out. -- Take care, Kitty From scott at illogics.org Thu Sep 11 19:34:11 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help Message-ID: <20030912003411.GU16970@illogics.org> Hi Kitty, One mans suggestion: Post the requirements for the job - Perl and MySQL and CGI as you've described should be satisfactory. If you also need graphic design, that is worth mentioning. Then name the terms - are you looking for an hourly rate? Individuals to bid the project, perhaps signing non-disclosure agreements before you give them the specs? If it is for a charitable organization of some sort, you could attract some attention with those credientials, and then build up to what is to be done after establishing communications. Problem with this kind of blanket statement is the people most qualified to help will have the greatest hesitation. So, any details you can give would help a lot. Thanks, -scott On 0, Kitty wrote: > > I'm thinking about a project, but am a little over my head, and don't > have the time to learn what I need to learn to implement it. So I was > wondering if someone would be willing to lend a hand on a Perl & mySQL > project, w/ a simple web interface. > > It sort of a sensitive project, and don't want to go into the details > here, but would appreciate hearing from someone that could help out. > -- > Take care, > Kitty > From scott at illogics.org Thu Sep 11 19:41:36 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help Message-ID: <20030912004136.GV16970@illogics.org> Oh, one other thing. Like doctors, who have seen all sorts of ill and ailments, programmers are pretty desenitized to ideas and business plans. We've all seen dozens of them and we just want to code our own ideas at this point ;) -scott On 0, Kitty wrote: > > I'm thinking about a project, but am a little over my head, and don't > have the time to learn what I need to learn to implement it. So I was > wondering if someone would be willing to lend a hand on a Perl & mySQL > project, w/ a simple web interface. > > It sort of a sensitive project, and don't want to go into the details > here, but would appreciate hearing from someone that could help out. > -- > Take care, > Kitty > From intertwingled at qwest.net Thu Sep 11 19:52:52 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help In-Reply-To: <20030912004136.GV16970@illogics.org> References: <20030912004136.GV16970@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3F6118E4.7070607@qwest.net> A programmer? What's that? =P Scott Walters wrote: >Oh, one other thing. Like doctors, who have seen all sorts of ill >and ailments, programmers are pretty desenitized to ideas and >business plans. We've all seen dozens of them and we just want >to code our own ideas at this point ;) > >-scott > >On 0, Kitty wrote: > > >>I'm thinking about a project, but am a little over my head, and don't >>have the time to learn what I need to learn to implement it. So I was >>wondering if someone would be willing to lend a hand on a Perl & mySQL >>project, w/ a simple web interface. >> >>It sort of a sensitive project, and don't want to go into the details >>here, but would appreciate hearing from someone that could help out. >>-- >>Take care, >>Kitty >> >> >> > > > > From jennykitten1 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 20:15:12 2003 From: jennykitten1 at yahoo.com (Kitty) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help In-Reply-To: <20030912003411.GU16970@illogics.org> References: <20030912003411.GU16970@illogics.org> Message-ID: <1063329312.15786.30.camel@moo.wpa.nan> It's not a paid project, but I could probably provide beer/Jolt & pizza on occasion. I still don't want to say what it's for, but it involves a ad-hoc group dealing with women's issues. I'd like to plan on doing most of the work, just need someone I can turn to, when I'm stuck. On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 17:34, Scott Walters wrote: > Hi Kitty, > > One mans suggestion: > > Post the requirements for the job - Perl and MySQL and CGI as you've > described should be satisfactory. If you also need graphic design, > that is worth mentioning. Then name the terms - are you looking for > an hourly rate? Individuals to bid the project, perhaps signing > non-disclosure agreements before you give them the specs? > > If it is for a charitable organization of some sort, you could > attract some attention with those credientials, and then build up > to what is to be done after establishing communications. > > Problem with this kind of blanket statement is the people most > qualified to help will have the greatest hesitation. So, any > details you can give would help a lot. > > Thanks, > -scott > > On 0, Kitty wrote: > > > > I'm thinking about a project, but am a little over my head, and don't > > have the time to learn what I need to learn to implement it. So I was > > wondering if someone would be willing to lend a hand on a Perl & mySQL > > project, w/ a simple web interface. > > > > It sort of a sensitive project, and don't want to go into the details > > here, but would appreciate hearing from someone that could help out. > > -- > > Take care, > > Kitty > > -- Take care, Kitty From intertwingled at qwest.net Thu Sep 11 20:24:11 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help In-Reply-To: <1063329312.15786.30.camel@moo.wpa.nan> References: <20030912003411.GU16970@illogics.org> <1063329312.15786.30.camel@moo.wpa.nan> Message-ID: <3F61203B.3070405@qwest.net> Please send picture of jeep. =P Kitty wrote: >It's not a paid project, but I could probably provide beer/Jolt & pizza >on occasion. I still don't want to say what it's for, but it involves a >ad-hoc group dealing with women's issues. I'd like to plan on doing most >of the work, just need someone I can turn to, when I'm stuck. > >On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 17:34, Scott Walters wrote: > > >>Hi Kitty, >> >>One mans suggestion: >> >>Post the requirements for the job - Perl and MySQL and CGI as you've >>described should be satisfactory. If you also need graphic design, >>that is worth mentioning. Then name the terms - are you looking for >>an hourly rate? Individuals to bid the project, perhaps signing >>non-disclosure agreements before you give them the specs? >> >>If it is for a charitable organization of some sort, you could >>attract some attention with those credientials, and then build up >>to what is to be done after establishing communications. >> >>Problem with this kind of blanket statement is the people most >>qualified to help will have the greatest hesitation. So, any >>details you can give would help a lot. >> >>Thanks, >>-scott >> >>On 0, Kitty wrote: >> >> >>>I'm thinking about a project, but am a little over my head, and don't >>>have the time to learn what I need to learn to implement it. So I was >>>wondering if someone would be willing to lend a hand on a Perl & mySQL >>>project, w/ a simple web interface. >>> >>>It sort of a sensitive project, and don't want to go into the details >>>here, but would appreciate hearing from someone that could help out. >>>-- >>>Take care, >>>Kitty >>> >>> >>> From jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com Thu Sep 11 21:13:47 2003 From: jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com (Jason Riedel) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help References: <20030912003411.GU16970@illogics.org> <1063329312.15786.30.camel@moo.wpa.nan> Message-ID: <003101c378d3$82df7120$46021eac@PHXRIEDELJ> Kitty, Im sure we could all help you, but if you want to work on a more one on one level, I would be glad to help with anything you throw at me that I can handle. Jason Riedel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty" To: Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help > It's not a paid project, but I could probably provide beer/Jolt & pizza > on occasion. I still don't want to say what it's for, but it involves a > ad-hoc group dealing with women's issues. I'd like to plan on doing most > of the work, just need someone I can turn to, when I'm stuck. > > On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 17:34, Scott Walters wrote: > > Hi Kitty, > > > > One mans suggestion: > > > > Post the requirements for the job - Perl and MySQL and CGI as you've > > described should be satisfactory. If you also need graphic design, > > that is worth mentioning. Then name the terms - are you looking for > > an hourly rate? Individuals to bid the project, perhaps signing > > non-disclosure agreements before you give them the specs? > > > > If it is for a charitable organization of some sort, you could > > attract some attention with those credientials, and then build up > > to what is to be done after establishing communications. > > > > Problem with this kind of blanket statement is the people most > > qualified to help will have the greatest hesitation. So, any > > details you can give would help a lot. > > > > Thanks, > > -scott > > > > On 0, Kitty wrote: > > > > > > I'm thinking about a project, but am a little over my head, and don't > > > have the time to learn what I need to learn to implement it. So I was > > > wondering if someone would be willing to lend a hand on a Perl & mySQL > > > project, w/ a simple web interface. > > > > > > It sort of a sensitive project, and don't want to go into the details > > > here, but would appreciate hearing from someone that could help out. > > > -- > > > Take care, > > > Kitty > > > > -- > Take care, > Kitty > From syz at marketingsource.com Thu Sep 11 21:34:17 2003 From: syz at marketingsource.com (Lowell Hamilton) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help In-Reply-To: <1063329312.15786.30.camel@moo.wpa.nan> References: <20030912003411.GU16970@illogics.org> <1063329312.15786.30.camel@moo.wpa.nan> Message-ID: <3F6130A9.9030003@marketingsource.com> Did someone say beer?!?!? Count me in =) -- :: Lowell Hamilton, Vice President :: Phone: (800) 575-5369 :: :: Concept Marketing Group, Inc. :: Fax: (866) 858-7488 :: :: The Marketing Resource Center :: http://www.marketingsource.com :: Kitty wrote: > It's not a paid project, but I could probably provide beer/Jolt & pizza > on occasion. I still don't want to say what it's for, but it involves a > ad-hoc group dealing with women's issues. I'd like to plan on doing most > of the work, just need someone I can turn to, when I'm stuck. From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Thu Sep 11 22:33:19 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: mySQL help References: <20030912003411.GU16970@illogics.org> <1063329312.15786.30.camel@moo.wpa.nan> Message-ID: <16225.15999.869145.669223@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> \_ SMTP quoth Kitty on 9/11/2003 18:15 as having spake thusly: \_ \_ It's not a paid project, but I could probably provide beer/Jolt & pizza \_ on occasion. I still don't want to say what it's for, but it involves a \_ ad-hoc group dealing with women's issues. I'd like to plan on doing most \_ of the work, just need someone I can turn to, when I'm stuck. $hoc += 1; # ad hoc in perl update hoc set ad = ad + 1; /* sql */ On a more serious note, there's a strong chance that you can say "I'm trying to do X with Y and instead of Z I get ABBA. Why?" And filter out the 'sensitive' part(s). If you're stuffing things in the database, most things are going to be 'generic' anyway. It's not uncommon for folks to sterilize what they present to the public just to keep random people from knowing that the password to the database is 'souper sekret' and such. It may be worth the extra effort to sterilize and post to the list for speedy resolution and varied viewpoints. Buying a slice of pizza and a swallow of beer for every good answer might present a challenge though. :-) Perhaps a donation to the perl foundation in the name of the Phx PM? Just tossing ideas, discard at will. David From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com Tue Sep 16 16:14:01 2003 From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Incrementing Characters in Perl Message-ID: <6B681776AD07ED4EBEEA5D961E431088044E6195@phxmx02.corp.acxiom.net> I've got a function I'm converting from C to Perl. One of the things I do is add to letters, so for instance my C code is char letter; letter = 'A'; letter += 3; which would make letter 'D'. In Perl this doesn't work $letter = 'A'; print $letter , "\n"; $letter = $letter + 4; print $letter , "\n"; prints 'A' , '4' Using chr and Ord I found a way to make it work. $letter = 'A'; print $letter , "\n"; $letter = chr(ord($letter) + 4); print $letter , "\n"; But I was wondering if you could think of anything slicker, using regex, tr, or something like that. No big deal as I do have a solution. Just wondering if there is a better way to do it. -Craig ********************************************************************** The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. From jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com Tue Sep 16 16:49:53 2003 From: jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com (Jason Riedel) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Incrementing Characters in Perl References: <6B681776AD07ED4EBEEA5D961E431088044E6195@phxmx02.corp.acxiom.net> Message-ID: <004301c37c9c$79021d70$46021eac@PHXRIEDELJ> Craig, It would seem that if you are simply doing a single character that is probably the fastest way. Since your actually modifying the value an sprintf solution doesn't work, this would only allow you to print the value as letter or number. The only other thing I know of is with unpack C*, but this would only benefit you if you were doing a multi character string. So like I said, I think you have the best way. For more information about anything I mention look in the perl cookbook page 10 or just email me. Jason Riedel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frooninckx Craig - cfroon" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: Phoenix.pm: Incrementing Characters in Perl > I've got a function I'm converting from C to Perl. One of the things I do > is add to letters, so for instance my C code is > char letter; > > letter = 'A'; > letter += 3; > > which would make letter 'D'. > > In Perl this doesn't work > $letter = 'A'; > print $letter , "\n"; > $letter = $letter + 4; > print $letter , "\n"; > > prints 'A' , '4' > > Using chr and Ord I found a way to make it work. > > $letter = 'A'; > print $letter , "\n"; > $letter = chr(ord($letter) + 4); > print $letter , "\n"; > > But I was wondering if you could think of anything slicker, using regex, tr, > or something like that. No big deal as I do have a solution. Just > wondering if there is a better way to do it. > > -Craig > > > > > > ********************************************************************** > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient > named above, and may be legally privileged. > If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, > please re-send this communication to the sender and > delete the original message or any copy of it from your > computer system. Thank You. > From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Tue Sep 16 17:09:58 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Incrementing Characters in Perl References: <6B681776AD07ED4EBEEA5D961E431088044E6195@phxmx02.corp.acxiom.net> Message-ID: <16231.35382.224532.926011@ip68-2-158-76.ph.ph.cox.net> You can increment a string: $a = 'A'; $a++ for (1..3); # will when perl golf over the other soln :-) print "$a\n"; but apparently only one inc at a time. David \_ SMTP quoth Frooninckx Craig - cfroon on 9/16/2003 14:14 as having spake thusly: \_ \_ I've got a function I'm converting from C to Perl. One of the things I do \_ is add to letters, so for instance my C code is \_ char letter; \_ \_ letter = 'A'; \_ letter += 3; \_ \_ which would make letter 'D'. \_ \_ In Perl this doesn't work \_ $letter = 'A'; \_ print $letter , "\n"; \_ $letter = $letter + 4; \_ print $letter , "\n"; \_ \_ prints 'A' , '4' \_ \_ Using chr and Ord I found a way to make it work. \_ \_ $letter = 'A'; \_ print $letter , "\n"; \_ $letter = chr(ord($letter) + 4); \_ print $letter , "\n"; \_ \_ But I was wondering if you could think of anything slicker, using regex, tr, \_ or something like that. No big deal as I do have a solution. Just \_ wondering if there is a better way to do it. \_ \_ -Craig \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ ********************************************************************** \_ The information contained in this communication is \_ confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient \_ named above, and may be legally privileged. \_ If the reader of this message is not the intended \_ recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, \_ distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly \_ prohibited. \_ If you have received this communication in error, \_ please re-send this communication to the sender and \_ delete the original message or any copy of it from your \_ computer system. Thank You. \_ From scott at illogics.org Tue Sep 16 19:24:08 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 9/18/2003 Message-ID: <20030917002408.GP16970@illogics.org> We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 18th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. Scott Walters will be doing the typesafety.pm presentation again, this time with a code walk through and demo of the code working (or not working, depending on the phase of the moon). Sorry for the late announcement. -scott ----- Forwarded message from Doug Miles ----- ID: <3F661B32.3080407@bpxinternet.com> Received: from jupiter.bowneonline.com ([63.241.144.5]) from bpxinternet.com ([12.9.16.106]) by jupiter.bowneonline.com Encoding: 7bit Subject: Meeting Language: en-us, en Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:04:02 -0700 Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Version: 1.0 Filter-Rule: None, default is delivery To: scott@illogics.org Organization: Bowne of Phoenix From: doug.miles@bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020827 Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 67 Lines: 3 Are you ready to present on Thurs (18th)? Let me know. Thanks! ----- End forwarded message ----- From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Thu Sep 18 16:28:42 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 Message-ID: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> Please RSVP... From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Thu Sep 18 16:45:24 2003 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 In-Reply-To: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <690C6C0E-EA21-11D7-BAB5-000A956CAA2C@highwire.stanford.edu> I'll be there! -- Mike On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 02:28 PM, Doug Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From Mark.Pease at motorola.com Thu Sep 18 16:53:19 2003 From: Mark.Pease at motorola.com (Mark Pease) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 References: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <3F6A294F.5070008@motorola.com> I find myself strangely free tonight, so I think I will come. (If I can over come my fear of open source^H^H^H^H^H^Hspaces ;-) See ya at 7:00! doug.miles@bpxinternet.com wrote: > Please RSVP... > -- Mark Pease Mark.Pease@motorola.com Motorola DigitalDNA(tm) Laboratories perl@perl.sps.mot.com 2100 E. Elliot Rd. Phone: (480) 413-3919 Mail Stop: AZ34 EL741 Tempe, AZ 85284 Pager: (800) 381-3304 Fax: (480) 413-7918 Co-Author (with Carl Dichter) of "Software Engineering with Perl" *** This note may contain Motorola Confidential Proprietary or Motorola Internal Use Only Information. Please handle accordingly. *** From intertwingled at qwest.net Thu Sep 18 16:58:09 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 In-Reply-To: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> References: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <3F6A2A71.3050006@qwest.net> Doug Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... > > > What the hell. I'll go. Tony P.S. What time is the meeting again? From jennykitten1 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 16:58:46 2003 From: jennykitten1 at yahoo.com (Kitty) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 In-Reply-To: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> References: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <1063922326.8613.34.camel@moo.wpa.nan> On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 14:28, Doug Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... Where/when? -- Take care, Kitty From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Thu Sep 18 17:26:30 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 References: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> <1063922326.8613.34.camel@moo.wpa.nan> Message-ID: <3F6A3116.2080402@bpxinternet.com> Kitty wrote: > On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 14:28, Doug Miles wrote: > >>Please RSVP... > > > Where/when? Sorry, I tried to send the reminder through using the original text, but it wouldn't go through. I hope this does: We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 18th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. From bob at brogmoid.com Thu Sep 18 18:15:59 2003 From: bob at brogmoid.com (Robert Lindley) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 In-Reply-To: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> References: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <3F6A3CAF.2090602@brogmoid.com> Doug Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... > > > Bill and Bob Lindley will attend. From intertwingled at qwest.net Thu Sep 18 18:25:45 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 In-Reply-To: <3F6A3CAF.2090602@brogmoid.com> References: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> <3F6A3CAF.2090602@brogmoid.com> Message-ID: <3F6A3EF9.5020401@qwest.net> Robert Lindley wrote: > Doug Miles wrote: > >> Please RSVP... >> >> >> > Bill and Bob Lindley will attend. > > > > Ah, the Lindley Twins. From jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com Thu Sep 18 19:39:11 2003 From: jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com (Jason Riedel) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 References: <3F6A238A.1030507@bpxinternet.com> <1063922326.8613.34.camel@moo.wpa.nan> <3F6A3116.2080402@bpxinternet.com> Message-ID: <002301c37e46$74d19a90$46021eac@PHXRIEDELJ> I wont see you guys there tonight, work is having some issues. Good luck, hope its enjoyable for you all ! Jason Riedel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Miles" To: Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:26 PM Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 09/18/2003 > Kitty wrote: > > On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 14:28, Doug Miles wrote: > > > >>Please RSVP... > > > > > > Where/when? > > Sorry, I tried to send the reminder through using the original text, but > it wouldn't go through. I hope this does: > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, September 18th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is > on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is > gated, so > just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that > you are > there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the > entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved > space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the > parking lot. > From intertwingled at qwest.net Fri Sep 26 21:23:43 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: pics of me and Randal Schwartz having lunch at H@@TERS!! Message-ID: <3F74F4AF.5090404@qwest.net> Naw, not really, those pics are getting old. =P However, I do have pics of my last trip to Trinity in New Mexico (where the first fission implosion device was detonated.) You can find them here: http://www.users.qwest.net/~intertwingled/ (Also got some nice pics of the Very Large Array on my way home.) Trinity is on White Sands Missile Range and is opened up twice a year to visitors. The next open house is 4 Oct, and I am planning on being there. More info about Trinity can be found here: http://www.wsmr.army.mil/paopage/Pages/Trinst.htm Tony P.S. Scott could you email me off-list? Thanks P.P.S. Great presentation, Scott! From scott at illogics.org Sat Sep 27 09:23:39 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Re: 5.8.2 and onwards Message-ID: <20030927142339.GI18297@illogics.org> Hi folks, 5.8.1 is out, and Nicholas Clark is pumpking for 5.8.2. -scott ----- Forwarded message from h.m.brand@hccnet.nl ----- ID: List: contact perl5-porters-help@perl.org; run by ezmlm Encoding: 8bit post: By: 213.84.163.145 Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-15 Spam-Index: -1.2 Filter-Rule: Pageok, trusted user/domain Archive: References: <20030926222921.GH29671@vipunen.hut.fi> help: Agent: Opera7.20/Win32 M2 build 3144 Received: from onion.perl.org (onion.develooper.com [63.251.223.166]) (qmail 36100 invoked by uid 1005); 27 Sep 2003 10:02:23 -0000 (qmail 36053 invoked by uid 1012); 27 Sep 2003 10:02:23 -0000 Subject: Re: 5.8.2 and onwards unsubscribe: Spam-Is-Higher-Than: 5 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:02:25 +0200 Autoconverted: from Quoted-Printable to 8bit by slowass.net id h8RA1her029312 Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk To: mailing list perl5-porters@perl.org perl5-porters@perl.org From: h.m.brand@hccnet.nl On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:29:21 +0300, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote: > Please join me in applauding Nicholas Clark who has graciously offered > to be the next 5.8 maintenance pumpkin. That cheers me up. Nick, you know you have a lot of crazy people here around to back you up on this. Release early? Hmm, as long as it's not with the lightning speed of your thoughts, and you *promise* to have at least two smoke cycles between releases, we can live with that. Good luck, and enjoy! -- Enjoy, have FUN! H.Merijn ----- End forwarded message ----- From m at pdxlug.org Tue Sep 30 12:16:14 2003 From: m at pdxlug.org (Matt Alexander) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: ActiveState Perl modules on Windows box with no net connection In-Reply-To: <20030927142339.GI18297@illogics.org> References: <20030927142339.GI18297@illogics.org> Message-ID: <34897.68.107.223.201.1064942174.squirrel@webmail.pdxlug.org> Does anyone know of a HOWTO or have instructions for installing Perl modules manually on a Win2K box without a net connection? Thanks, ~M From jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com Tue Sep 30 13:50:54 2003 From: jasonriedel at jasonriedel.com (Jason Riedel) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: ActiveState Perl modules on Windows box with no net connection References: <20030927142339.GI18297@illogics.org> <34897.68.107.223.201.1064942174.squirrel@webmail.pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <002a01c38783$c724f760$6702a8c0@jasonriedel> Matt, For the non-complex modules, Ive been able to copy files directly to the site/lib, but if its complex you might be doing some serious trial and error, so to avoid that I would look for a detailed extraction map on the module. You know something that says, all of these .pm's in this structure will be extracted then do it manually. Hopefully someone has a better suggestions! Good luck to you. Jason Riedel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Alexander" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 10:16 AM Subject: Phoenix.pm: ActiveState Perl modules on Windows box with no net connection > Does anyone know of a HOWTO or have instructions for installing Perl > modules manually on a Win2K box without a net connection? > Thanks, > ~M > From doug.miles at bpxinternet.com Tue Sep 30 14:07:24 2003 From: doug.miles at bpxinternet.com (Doug Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: ActiveState Perl modules on Windows box with no net connection References: <20030927142339.GI18297@illogics.org> <34897.68.107.223.201.1064942174.squirrel@webmail.pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <3F79D46C.2040202@bpxinternet.com> Matt Alexander wrote: > Does anyone know of a HOWTO or have instructions for installing Perl > modules manually on a Win2K box without a net connection? > Thanks, > ~M > Download the ppm file and do this: ppm install --location=. modulename.ppm (for 5.6.1) or ppm install modulename.ppm (for 5.8.0) This syntax is off the top of my head, so it may be wildly incorrect. From TomA at fh.org Tue Sep 30 14:28:10 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:05 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Perl training Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE0136372A@mail.int.fh.org> I was asked to review the 4 day Perl class I just completed. The class was given by Hands On Technology Transfer at http://www.traininghott.com As a beginner, I thought it was pretty good. We spent an entire day on CGI and web apps. About half a day was on Regular Expressions and pattern matching. The better part of a day was spent on scalars, arrays and hashes too. The class was small with only 7 people in it. Since it was at their facility it was on XP machines using Active State 5.6. They offer the course along with quite a few other courses all over the country on a regular schedule. It is scheduled for Phoenix on 10/21. Their PHP class, also 4 days, is scheduled here on 11/11. Cost for a 4 day class is $1695 and for an added $400 they take care of air fare and hotel if you need to go out of town for the class. I was scheduled to take it in Detroit but due to low enrollment they cancelled that offering. They re-scheduled me for it at their main offices in Chelmsford, MA. They then paid the hotel and air fare which they were not going to do before. They put me in a Radisson which was pretty nice. Over all I feel it gave me a good basis to get started with Perl and will make it easier to learn more from more advanced books, etc. It is a beginning level course, but then that is what I needed. If any of you have any specific questions about what was or was not covered please ask away. Tom Achtenberg SQL Programmer/Report Writer Food for the Hungry US Information Technologies (480)609-7750