Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed

[Bill Nash]

It could be just me. Of the perl community circles I myself travel in,
there are very few people, from those circles, in Phoenix. Tony's
reputation apparantly doesn't precede him here.

Plain and simple, I don't like Tony, for a fair number of perfectly valid
reasons. His behavior simply exacerbates the issue. I don't think my
non-attendence of local .pm events due to the potential of running into
Tony is a 'silly stupid' thing, it's mere prudence. As inactive as this
list tends to be, the potential benefits of attending these events don't
outweigh the potentially negative effects.

I see no reason to (further) sully what is likely otherwise a perfectly
good forum for other people because I have personal differences with
another member.

- billn

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Scott Walters wrote:

> Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony?
>
> I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding Tony
> for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very seldom
> attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out.
> Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't
> know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid things.
>
> -scott
>
>
> On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote:
> >
> > > Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =)
> > >
> > > Tony
> >
> > Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger meetings.
> >
> > You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require you to
> > keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general.
> >
> > - billn
> >
> > >
> > > Scott Walters wrote:
> > >
> > > >billn,
> > > >
> > > >Good advice.
> > > >
> > > >My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under
> > > >the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card gateways,
> > > >including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this
> > > >experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they
> > > >were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an
> > > >interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in competition
> > > >with them. The job was offered because because of the experience
> > > >I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided
> > > >by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit from
> > > >things I learned on the job, and they might some day find themselves
> > > >in competition with my work.
> > > >
> > > >My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class libraries
> > > >and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse client
> > > >needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic
> > > >design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that
> > > >the project would ever meet.
> > > >
> > > >I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these contracts
> > > >are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. Let me
> > > >draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have lots
> > > >of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from your
> > > >clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you kill
> > > >people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you will have
> > > >no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software programmers
> > > >are so universally threatening to established development (as free
> > > >software is universally threatening to commercial software), no clear
> > > >bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe.
> > > >
> > > >I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who have released
> > > >things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate the
> > > >problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it.
> > > >
> > > >For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free software
> > > >programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the work, it is
> > > >good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is accountable
> > > >to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is made generally
> > > >available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most employers
> > > >are suspicious of people who are still in school.
> > > >
> > > >I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what is needed is
> > > >for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. When it is
> > > >established that free software development can be done while playing by the
> > > >same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd hope),
> > > >and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as the
> > > >commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial free software
> > > >developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any reasonably
> > > >honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, only because
> > > >dishonesty doesn't pay).
> > > >
> > > >-scott
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail at cox.net wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>><my 2 cents>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have
> > > >>>changed a little because one of the things they did for me is sit me
> > > >>>down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know if that
> > > >>>really offended me because I would probably be running into it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a good feeling from the place.
> > > >>>
> > > >>></my 2 cents>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus test, all
> > > >>things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they deal with
> > > >>porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then don't.
> > > >>
> > > >>I've been through their interview process as well (although I didn't get
> > > >>to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, and I
> > > >>asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem to be
> > > >>different than the ones I got, likely because the document has been
> > > >>revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good to see
> > > >>people looking out for themselves, especially developers who don't want
> > > >>their work sucked under a corporate umbrella.
> > > >>
> > > >>The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to keep
> > > >>your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, please
> > > >>consult yours.):
> > > >>
> > > >>1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of them are in
> > > >>competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even secondary)
> > > >>mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks to sign
> > > >>off on a written statement of work for each project, as non-conflicting /
> > > >>non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the interview
> > > >>process.
> > > >>
> > > >>2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall meet.
> > > >>Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to do, and
> > > >>work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no coding for
> > > >>the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box from the
> > > >>office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 'work
> > > >>for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the clock.
> > > >>
> > > >>3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the open
> > > >>source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into it, unless
> > > >>you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position developing
> > > >>Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing dealt
> > > >>directly with our primary product, and a community release of my toolset
> > > >>would have been potentially damaging to our company's profitability, by
> > > >>giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to release would
> > > >>not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, then it's
> > > >>entirely possible it could be kosher.
> > > >>
> > > >>Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself.
> > > >>Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and out to
> > > >>get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared conditions
> > > >>to employment will often save you.
> > > >>
> > > >>- billn
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>>I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt -
> > > >>>>heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they wanted
> > > >>>>me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual property,
> > > >>>>and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview partially because
> > > >>>>of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about this,
> > > >>>>they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely enough, I
> > > >>>>couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false statement,
> > > >>>>as I couldn't retract the code I've released.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the contracts
> > > >>>>carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth shut,
> > > >>>>there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't like
> > > >>>>being "owned".
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies are well
> > > >>>>reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see the
> > > >>>>building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people on
> > > >>>>tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for someone
> > > >>>>more interested in the business side of software than the hobby side.
> > > >>>>If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The industry
> > > >>>>is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that accepts
> > > >>>>payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay
> > > >>>>than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is for)
> > > >>>>ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, including
> > > >>>>setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself
> > > >>>>working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>2 cents and that.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Cheers,
> > > >>>>-scott
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>On  0, Jacob Powers <jpowers at ccbill.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D
> > > >>>>>Content-Type: text/plain;
> > > >>>>>	charset="us-ascii"
> > > >>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>Software Developer
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is currently looking
> > > >>>>>for a Software Developer.
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>Job Description: Writes and tests code written from specification
> > > >>>>>provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the guidance of team
> > > >>>>>leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both internal
> > > >>>>>and external clients.
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>Requirements:
> > > >>>>>*	Strong understanding of programming concepts and best practices.
> > > >>>>>*	Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills.
> > > >>>>>*	Object oriented PERL knowledge.
> > > >>>>>*	Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor.
> > > >>>>>*	Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code.
> > > >>>>>*	Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web applications.
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>Following Skills a Plus:
> > > >>>>>*	Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge.
> > > >>>>>*	Apache experience.
> > > >>>>>*	MySQL experience.
> > > >>>>>*	Database design.
> > > >>>>>*	Shell scripting.
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a casual
> > > >>>>>work environment. All interested applicants should send your resume,
> > > >>>>>cover letter and references to jpowers at ccbill.com=20
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or email us
> > > >>>>>at the above address.
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>Jacob Powers
> > > >>>>>Project Manager
> > > >>>>>CCBill.com
> > > >>>>>=20
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
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