Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed

[johnb]

When is the first meeting, I'll bring the cafe....


On Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 01:17 AM, intertwingled wrote:

> That does it.  I'm starting my own Tempe Perlmongers.  And billn is 
> not invited!!  =P
>
> Tony
>
> Scott Walters wrote:
>
>> Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony?
>> I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding 
>> Tony
>> for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very 
>> seldom
>> attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out.
>> Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't
>> know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid 
>> things.
>>
>> -scott
>>
>>
>> On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =)
>>>>
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>> Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger 
>>> meetings.
>>>
>>> You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require 
>>> you to
>>> keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general.
>>>
>>> - billn
>>>
>>>
>>>> Scott Walters wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> billn,
>>>>>
>>>>> Good advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under
>>>>> the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card 
>>>>> gateways,
>>>>> including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this
>>>>> experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they
>>>>> were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an
>>>>> interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in 
>>>>> competition
>>>>> with them. The job was offered because because of the experience
>>>>> I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided
>>>>> by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit 
>>>>> from
>>>>> things I learned on the job, and they might some day find 
>>>>> themselves
>>>>> in competition with my work.
>>>>>
>>>>> My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class 
>>>>> libraries
>>>>> and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse 
>>>>> client
>>>>> needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic
>>>>> design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that
>>>>> the project would ever meet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these 
>>>>> contracts
>>>>> are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. 
>>>>> Let me
>>>>> draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have 
>>>>> lots
>>>>> of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from 
>>>>> your
>>>>> clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you 
>>>>> kill
>>>>> people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you 
>>>>> will have
>>>>> no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software 
>>>>> programmers
>>>>> are so universally threatening to established development (as free
>>>>> software is universally threatening to commercial software), no 
>>>>> clear
>>>>> bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who 
>>>>> have released
>>>>> things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate 
>>>>> the
>>>>> problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it.
>>>>>
>>>>> For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free 
>>>>> software
>>>>> programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the 
>>>>> work, it is
>>>>> good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is 
>>>>> accountable
>>>>> to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is 
>>>>> made generally
>>>>> available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most 
>>>>> employers
>>>>> are suspicious of people who are still in school.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what 
>>>>> is needed is
>>>>> for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. 
>>>>> When it is
>>>>> established that free software development can be done while 
>>>>> playing by the
>>>>> same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd 
>>>>> hope),
>>>>> and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as 
>>>>> the
>>>>> commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial 
>>>>> free software
>>>>> developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any 
>>>>> reasonably
>>>>> honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, 
>>>>> only because
>>>>> dishonesty doesn't pay).
>>>>>
>>>>> -scott
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On  0, Bill Nash <billn at billn.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail at cox.net wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <my 2 cents>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have
>>>>>>> changed a little because one of the things they did for me is 
>>>>>>> sit me
>>>>>>> down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know 
>>>>>>> if that
>>>>>>> really offended me because I would probably be running into it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a 
>>>>>>> good feeling from the place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> </my 2 cents>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus 
>>>>>> test, all
>>>>>> things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they 
>>>>>> deal with
>>>>>> porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then 
>>>>>> don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been through their interview process as well (although I 
>>>>>> didn't get
>>>>>> to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, 
>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem 
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> different than the ones I got, likely because the document has 
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good 
>>>>>> to see
>>>>>> people looking out for themselves, especially developers who 
>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>> their work sucked under a corporate umbrella.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to 
>>>>>> keep
>>>>>> your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, 
>>>>>> please
>>>>>> consult yours.):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of 
>>>>>> them are in
>>>>>> competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even 
>>>>>> secondary)
>>>>>> mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks 
>>>>>> to sign
>>>>>> off on a written statement of work for each project, as 
>>>>>> non-conflicting /
>>>>>> non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the 
>>>>>> interview
>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall 
>>>>>> meet.
>>>>>> Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to 
>>>>>> do, and
>>>>>> work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no 
>>>>>> coding for
>>>>>> the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box 
>>>>>> from the
>>>>>> office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 
>>>>>> 'work
>>>>>> for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the 
>>>>>> clock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the 
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into 
>>>>>> it, unless
>>>>>> you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position 
>>>>>> developing
>>>>>> Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing 
>>>>>> dealt
>>>>>> directly with our primary product, and a community release of my 
>>>>>> toolset
>>>>>> would have been potentially damaging to our company's 
>>>>>> profitability, by
>>>>>> giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to 
>>>>>> release would
>>>>>> not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, 
>>>>>> then it's
>>>>>> entirely possible it could be kosher.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself.
>>>>>> Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and 
>>>>>> out to
>>>>>> get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared 
>>>>>> conditions
>>>>>> to employment will often save you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - billn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt -
>>>>>>>> heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they 
>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>> me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual 
>>>>>>>> property,
>>>>>>>> and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview 
>>>>>>>> partially because
>>>>>>>> of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about 
>>>>>>>> this,
>>>>>>>> they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely 
>>>>>>>> enough, I
>>>>>>>> couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false 
>>>>>>>> statement,
>>>>>>>> as I couldn't retract the code I've released.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the 
>>>>>>>> contracts
>>>>>>>> carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth 
>>>>>>>> shut,
>>>>>>>> there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't 
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> being "owned".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies 
>>>>>>>> are well
>>>>>>>> reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people 
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for 
>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>> more interested in the business side of software than the hobby 
>>>>>>>> side.
>>>>>>>> If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The 
>>>>>>>> industry
>>>>>>>> is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that 
>>>>>>>> accepts
>>>>>>>> payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay
>>>>>>>> than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is 
>>>>>>>> for)
>>>>>>>> ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, 
>>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>>> setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself
>>>>>>>> working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2 cents and that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> -scott
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On  0, Jacob Powers <jpowers at ccbill.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;
>>>>>>>>> 	charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Software Developer
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is 
>>>>>>>>> currently looking
>>>>>>>>> for a Software Developer.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Job Description: Writes and tests code written from 
>>>>>>>>> specification
>>>>>>>>> provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the 
>>>>>>>>> guidance of team
>>>>>>>>> leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both 
>>>>>>>>> internal
>>>>>>>>> and external clients.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Requirements:
>>>>>>>>> *	Strong understanding of programming concepts and best 
>>>>>>>>> practices.
>>>>>>>>> *	Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills.
>>>>>>>>> *	Object oriented PERL knowledge.
>>>>>>>>> *	Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor.
>>>>>>>>> *	Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code.
>>>>>>>>> *	Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web 
>>>>>>>>> applications.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Following Skills a Plus:
>>>>>>>>> *	Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge.
>>>>>>>>> *	Apache experience.
>>>>>>>>> *	MySQL experience.
>>>>>>>>> *	Database design.
>>>>>>>>> *	Shell scripting.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a 
>>>>>>>>> casual
>>>>>>>>> work environment. All interested applicants should send your 
>>>>>>>>> resume,
>>>>>>>>> cover letter and references to jpowers at ccbill.com=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or 
>>>>>>>>> email us
>>>>>>>>> at the above address.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Jacob Powers
>>>>>>>>> Project Manager
>>>>>>>>> CCBill.com
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
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