From scott at illogics.org Sat Nov 1 02:03:03 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed Message-ID: <20031101080303.GH16473@illogics.org> Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony? I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding Tony for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very seldom attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out. Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid things. -scott On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote: > > > Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =) > > > > Tony > > Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger meetings. > > You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require you to > keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general. > > - billn > > > > > Scott Walters wrote: > > > > >billn, > > > > > >Good advice. > > > > > >My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under > > >the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card gateways, > > >including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this > > >experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they > > >were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an > > >interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in competition > > >with them. The job was offered because because of the experience > > >I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided > > >by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit from > > >things I learned on the job, and they might some day find themselves > > >in competition with my work. > > > > > >My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class libraries > > >and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse client > > >needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic > > >design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that > > >the project would ever meet. > > > > > >I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these contracts > > >are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. Let me > > >draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have lots > > >of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from your > > >clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you kill > > >people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you will have > > >no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software programmers > > >are so universally threatening to established development (as free > > >software is universally threatening to commercial software), no clear > > >bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe. > > > > > >I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who have released > > >things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate the > > >problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it. > > > > > >For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free software > > >programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the work, it is > > >good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is accountable > > >to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is made generally > > >available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most employers > > >are suspicious of people who are still in school. > > > > > >I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what is needed is > > >for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. When it is > > >established that free software development can be done while playing by the > > >same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd hope), > > >and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as the > > >commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial free software > > >developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any reasonably > > >honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, only because > > >dishonesty doesn't pay). > > > > > >-scott > > > > > > > > >On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > > > > > > >>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail@cox.net wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have > > >>>changed a little because one of the things they did for me is sit me > > >>>down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know if that > > >>>really offended me because I would probably be running into it. > > >>> > > >>>In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a good feeling from the place. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus test, all > > >>things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they deal with > > >>porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then don't. > > >> > > >>I've been through their interview process as well (although I didn't get > > >>to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, and I > > >>asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem to be > > >>different than the ones I got, likely because the document has been > > >>revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good to see > > >>people looking out for themselves, especially developers who don't want > > >>their work sucked under a corporate umbrella. > > >> > > >>The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to keep > > >>your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, please > > >>consult yours.): > > >> > > >>1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of them are in > > >>competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even secondary) > > >>mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks to sign > > >>off on a written statement of work for each project, as non-conflicting / > > >>non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the interview > > >>process. > > >> > > >>2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall meet. > > >>Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to do, and > > >>work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no coding for > > >>the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box from the > > >>office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 'work > > >>for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the clock. > > >> > > >>3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the open > > >>source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into it, unless > > >>you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position developing > > >>Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing dealt > > >>directly with our primary product, and a community release of my toolset > > >>would have been potentially damaging to our company's profitability, by > > >>giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to release would > > >>not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, then it's > > >>entirely possible it could be kosher. > > >> > > >>Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself. > > >>Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and out to > > >>get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared conditions > > >>to employment will often save you. > > >> > > >>- billn > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>>I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt - > > >>>>heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they wanted > > >>>>me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual property, > > >>>>and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview partially because > > >>>>of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about this, > > >>>>they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely enough, I > > >>>>couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false statement, > > >>>>as I couldn't retract the code I've released. > > >>>> > > >>>>Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the contracts > > >>>>carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth shut, > > >>>>there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't like > > >>>>being "owned". > > >>>> > > >>>>It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies are well > > >>>>reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see the > > >>>>building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people on > > >>>>tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for someone > > >>>>more interested in the business side of software than the hobby side. > > >>>>If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The industry > > >>>>is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that accepts > > >>>>payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay > > >>>>than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is for) > > >>>>ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, including > > >>>>setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself > > >>>>working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at. > > >>>> > > >>>>2 cents and that. > > >>>> > > >>>>Cheers, > > >>>>-scott > > >>>> > > >>>>On 0, Jacob Powers wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D > > >>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; > > >>>>> charset="us-ascii" > > >>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > >>>>> > > >>>>>Software Developer > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is currently looking > > >>>>>for a Software Developer. > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>Job Description: Writes and tests code written from specification > > >>>>>provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the guidance of team > > >>>>>leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both internal > > >>>>>and external clients. > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>Requirements: > > >>>>>* Strong understanding of programming concepts and best practices. > > >>>>>* Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills. > > >>>>>* Object oriented PERL knowledge. > > >>>>>* Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor. > > >>>>>* Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code. > > >>>>>* Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web applications. > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>Following Skills a Plus: > > >>>>>* Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge. > > >>>>>* Apache experience. > > >>>>>* MySQL experience. > > >>>>>* Database design. > > >>>>>* Shell scripting. > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a casual > > >>>>>work environment. All interested applicants should send your resume, > > >>>>>cover letter and references to jpowers@ccbill.com=20 > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or email us > > >>>>>at the above address. > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>>Jacob Powers > > >>>>>Project Manager > > >>>>>CCBill.com > > >>>>>=20 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From intertwingled at qwest.net Sat Nov 1 02:17:20 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed In-Reply-To: <20031101080303.GH16473@illogics.org> References: <20031101080303.GH16473@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3FA36C10.8040802@qwest.net> That does it. I'm starting my own Tempe Perlmongers. And billn is not invited!! =P Tony Scott Walters wrote: >Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony? > >I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding Tony >for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very seldom >attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out. >Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't >know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid things. > >-scott > > >On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > >>On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote: >> >> >> >>>Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =) >>> >>>Tony >>> >>> >>Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger meetings. >> >>You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require you to >>keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general. >> >>- billn >> >> >> >>>Scott Walters wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>billn, >>>> >>>>Good advice. >>>> >>>>My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under >>>>the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card gateways, >>>>including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this >>>>experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they >>>>were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an >>>>interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in competition >>>>with them. The job was offered because because of the experience >>>>I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided >>>>by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit from >>>>things I learned on the job, and they might some day find themselves >>>>in competition with my work. >>>> >>>>My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class libraries >>>>and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse client >>>>needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic >>>>design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that >>>>the project would ever meet. >>>> >>>>I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these contracts >>>>are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. Let me >>>>draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have lots >>>>of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from your >>>>clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you kill >>>>people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you will have >>>>no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software programmers >>>>are so universally threatening to established development (as free >>>>software is universally threatening to commercial software), no clear >>>>bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe. >>>> >>>>I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who have released >>>>things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate the >>>>problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it. >>>> >>>>For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free software >>>>programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the work, it is >>>>good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is accountable >>>>to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is made generally >>>>available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most employers >>>>are suspicious of people who are still in school. >>>> >>>>I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what is needed is >>>>for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. When it is >>>>established that free software development can be done while playing by the >>>>same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd hope), >>>>and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as the >>>>commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial free software >>>>developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any reasonably >>>>honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, only because >>>>dishonesty doesn't pay). >>>> >>>>-scott >>>> >>>> >>>>On 0, Bill Nash wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail@cox.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have >>>>>>changed a little because one of the things they did for me is sit me >>>>>>down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know if that >>>>>>really offended me because I would probably be running into it. >>>>>> >>>>>>In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a good feeling from the place. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus test, all >>>>>things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they deal with >>>>>porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then don't. >>>>> >>>>>I've been through their interview process as well (although I didn't get >>>>>to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, and I >>>>>asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem to be >>>>>different than the ones I got, likely because the document has been >>>>>revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good to see >>>>>people looking out for themselves, especially developers who don't want >>>>>their work sucked under a corporate umbrella. >>>>> >>>>>The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to keep >>>>>your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, please >>>>>consult yours.): >>>>> >>>>>1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of them are in >>>>>competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even secondary) >>>>>mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks to sign >>>>>off on a written statement of work for each project, as non-conflicting / >>>>>non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the interview >>>>>process. >>>>> >>>>>2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall meet. >>>>>Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to do, and >>>>>work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no coding for >>>>>the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box from the >>>>>office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 'work >>>>>for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the clock. >>>>> >>>>>3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the open >>>>>source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into it, unless >>>>>you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position developing >>>>>Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing dealt >>>>>directly with our primary product, and a community release of my toolset >>>>>would have been potentially damaging to our company's profitability, by >>>>>giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to release would >>>>>not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, then it's >>>>>entirely possible it could be kosher. >>>>> >>>>>Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself. >>>>>Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and out to >>>>>get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared conditions >>>>>to employment will often save you. >>>>> >>>>>- billn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt - >>>>>>>heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they wanted >>>>>>>me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual property, >>>>>>>and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview partially because >>>>>>>of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about this, >>>>>>>they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely enough, I >>>>>>>couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false statement, >>>>>>>as I couldn't retract the code I've released. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the contracts >>>>>>>carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth shut, >>>>>>>there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't like >>>>>>>being "owned". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies are well >>>>>>>reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see the >>>>>>>building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people on >>>>>>>tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for someone >>>>>>>more interested in the business side of software than the hobby side. >>>>>>>If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The industry >>>>>>>is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that accepts >>>>>>>payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay >>>>>>>than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is for) >>>>>>>ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, including >>>>>>>setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself >>>>>>>working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2 cents and that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>-scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On 0, Jacob Powers wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D >>>>>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; >>>>>>>> charset="us-ascii" >>>>>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Software Developer >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is currently looking >>>>>>>>for a Software Developer. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>Job Description: Writes and tests code written from specification >>>>>>>>provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the guidance of team >>>>>>>>leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both internal >>>>>>>>and external clients. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>Requirements: >>>>>>>>* Strong understanding of programming concepts and best practices. >>>>>>>>* Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills. >>>>>>>>* Object oriented PERL knowledge. >>>>>>>>* Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor. >>>>>>>>* Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code. >>>>>>>>* Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web applications. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>Following Skills a Plus: >>>>>>>>* Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge. >>>>>>>>* Apache experience. >>>>>>>>* MySQL experience. >>>>>>>>* Database design. >>>>>>>>* Shell scripting. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a casual >>>>>>>>work environment. All interested applicants should send your resume, >>>>>>>>cover letter and references to jpowers@ccbill.com=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or email us >>>>>>>>at the above address. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>Jacob Powers >>>>>>>>Project Manager >>>>>>>>CCBill.com >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > > From wlindley at wlindley.com Sat Nov 1 07:37:26 2003 From: wlindley at wlindley.com (Bill Lindley) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed In-Reply-To: <20031101080303.GH16473@illogics.org> References: <20031101080303.GH16473@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3FA3B716.4010604@wlindley.com> what's up, does he have b.o. or something? good grief people, grow up... you're in first grade now! \\/ From johngnub at cox.net Sat Nov 1 09:38:40 2003 From: johngnub at cox.net (johnb) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed In-Reply-To: <3FA36C10.8040802@qwest.net> Message-ID: <77903170-0C81-11D8-A588-000A9585B970@cox.net> When is the first meeting, I'll bring the cafe.... On Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 01:17 AM, intertwingled wrote: > That does it. I'm starting my own Tempe Perlmongers. And billn is > not invited!! =P > > Tony > > Scott Walters wrote: > >> Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony? >> I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding >> Tony >> for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very >> seldom >> attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out. >> Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't >> know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid >> things. >> >> -scott >> >> >> On 0, Bill Nash wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =) >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>> Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger >>> meetings. >>> >>> You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require >>> you to >>> keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general. >>> >>> - billn >>> >>> >>>> Scott Walters wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> billn, >>>>> >>>>> Good advice. >>>>> >>>>> My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under >>>>> the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card >>>>> gateways, >>>>> including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this >>>>> experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they >>>>> were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an >>>>> interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in >>>>> competition >>>>> with them. The job was offered because because of the experience >>>>> I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided >>>>> by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit >>>>> from >>>>> things I learned on the job, and they might some day find >>>>> themselves >>>>> in competition with my work. >>>>> >>>>> My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class >>>>> libraries >>>>> and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse >>>>> client >>>>> needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic >>>>> design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that >>>>> the project would ever meet. >>>>> >>>>> I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these >>>>> contracts >>>>> are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. >>>>> Let me >>>>> draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have >>>>> lots >>>>> of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from >>>>> your >>>>> clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you >>>>> kill >>>>> people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you >>>>> will have >>>>> no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software >>>>> programmers >>>>> are so universally threatening to established development (as free >>>>> software is universally threatening to commercial software), no >>>>> clear >>>>> bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe. >>>>> >>>>> I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who >>>>> have released >>>>> things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate >>>>> the >>>>> problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it. >>>>> >>>>> For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free >>>>> software >>>>> programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the >>>>> work, it is >>>>> good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is >>>>> accountable >>>>> to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is >>>>> made generally >>>>> available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most >>>>> employers >>>>> are suspicious of people who are still in school. >>>>> >>>>> I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what >>>>> is needed is >>>>> for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. >>>>> When it is >>>>> established that free software development can be done while >>>>> playing by the >>>>> same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd >>>>> hope), >>>>> and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as >>>>> the >>>>> commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial >>>>> free software >>>>> developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any >>>>> reasonably >>>>> honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, >>>>> only because >>>>> dishonesty doesn't pay). >>>>> >>>>> -scott >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 0, Bill Nash wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail@cox.net wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have >>>>>>> changed a little because one of the things they did for me is >>>>>>> sit me >>>>>>> down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know >>>>>>> if that >>>>>>> really offended me because I would probably be running into it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a >>>>>>> good feeling from the place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus >>>>>> test, all >>>>>> things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they >>>>>> deal with >>>>>> porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then >>>>>> don't. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been through their interview process as well (although I >>>>>> didn't get >>>>>> to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, >>>>>> and I >>>>>> asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem >>>>>> to be >>>>>> different than the ones I got, likely because the document has >>>>>> been >>>>>> revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good >>>>>> to see >>>>>> people looking out for themselves, especially developers who >>>>>> don't want >>>>>> their work sucked under a corporate umbrella. >>>>>> >>>>>> The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to >>>>>> keep >>>>>> your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, >>>>>> please >>>>>> consult yours.): >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of >>>>>> them are in >>>>>> competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even >>>>>> secondary) >>>>>> mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks >>>>>> to sign >>>>>> off on a written statement of work for each project, as >>>>>> non-conflicting / >>>>>> non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the >>>>>> interview >>>>>> process. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall >>>>>> meet. >>>>>> Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to >>>>>> do, and >>>>>> work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no >>>>>> coding for >>>>>> the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box >>>>>> from the >>>>>> office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term >>>>>> 'work >>>>>> for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the >>>>>> clock. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the >>>>>> open >>>>>> source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into >>>>>> it, unless >>>>>> you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position >>>>>> developing >>>>>> Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing >>>>>> dealt >>>>>> directly with our primary product, and a community release of my >>>>>> toolset >>>>>> would have been potentially damaging to our company's >>>>>> profitability, by >>>>>> giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to >>>>>> release would >>>>>> not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, >>>>>> then it's >>>>>> entirely possible it could be kosher. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself. >>>>>> Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and >>>>>> out to >>>>>> get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared >>>>>> conditions >>>>>> to employment will often save you. >>>>>> >>>>>> - billn >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt - >>>>>>>> heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they >>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>> me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual >>>>>>>> property, >>>>>>>> and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview >>>>>>>> partially because >>>>>>>> of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about >>>>>>>> this, >>>>>>>> they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely >>>>>>>> enough, I >>>>>>>> couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false >>>>>>>> statement, >>>>>>>> as I couldn't retract the code I've released. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the >>>>>>>> contracts >>>>>>>> carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth >>>>>>>> shut, >>>>>>>> there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> being "owned". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies >>>>>>>> are well >>>>>>>> reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for >>>>>>>> someone >>>>>>>> more interested in the business side of software than the hobby >>>>>>>> side. >>>>>>>> If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The >>>>>>>> industry >>>>>>>> is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that >>>>>>>> accepts >>>>>>>> payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay >>>>>>>> than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is >>>>>>>> for) >>>>>>>> ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, >>>>>>>> including >>>>>>>> setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself >>>>>>>> working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2 cents and that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> -scott >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 0, Jacob Powers wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; >>>>>>>>> charset="us-ascii" >>>>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Software Developer >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is >>>>>>>>> currently looking >>>>>>>>> for a Software Developer. >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> Job Description: Writes and tests code written from >>>>>>>>> specification >>>>>>>>> provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the >>>>>>>>> guidance of team >>>>>>>>> leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both >>>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>>> and external clients. >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> Requirements: >>>>>>>>> * Strong understanding of programming concepts and best >>>>>>>>> practices. >>>>>>>>> * Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills. >>>>>>>>> * Object oriented PERL knowledge. >>>>>>>>> * Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor. >>>>>>>>> * Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code. >>>>>>>>> * Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web >>>>>>>>> applications. >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> Following Skills a Plus: >>>>>>>>> * Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge. >>>>>>>>> * Apache experience. >>>>>>>>> * MySQL experience. >>>>>>>>> * Database design. >>>>>>>>> * Shell scripting. >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a >>>>>>>>> casual >>>>>>>>> work environment. All interested applicants should send your >>>>>>>>> resume, >>>>>>>>> cover letter and references to jpowers@ccbill.com=20 >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or >>>>>>>>> email us >>>>>>>>> at the above address. >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> Jacob Powers >>>>>>>>> Project Manager >>>>>>>>> CCBill.com >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> >> > > From billn at billn.net Sun Nov 2 16:44:01 2003 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed In-Reply-To: <20031101080303.GH16473@illogics.org> Message-ID: It could be just me. Of the perl community circles I myself travel in, there are very few people, from those circles, in Phoenix. Tony's reputation apparantly doesn't precede him here. Plain and simple, I don't like Tony, for a fair number of perfectly valid reasons. His behavior simply exacerbates the issue. I don't think my non-attendence of local .pm events due to the potential of running into Tony is a 'silly stupid' thing, it's mere prudence. As inactive as this list tends to be, the potential benefits of attending these events don't outweigh the potentially negative effects. I see no reason to (further) sully what is likely otherwise a perfectly good forum for other people because I have personal differences with another member. - billn On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Scott Walters wrote: > Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony? > > I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding Tony > for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very seldom > attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out. > Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't > know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid things. > > -scott > > > On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote: > > > > > Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =) > > > > > > Tony > > > > Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger meetings. > > > > You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require you to > > keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general. > > > > - billn > > > > > > > > Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > > >billn, > > > > > > > >Good advice. > > > > > > > >My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under > > > >the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card gateways, > > > >including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this > > > >experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they > > > >were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an > > > >interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in competition > > > >with them. The job was offered because because of the experience > > > >I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided > > > >by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit from > > > >things I learned on the job, and they might some day find themselves > > > >in competition with my work. > > > > > > > >My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class libraries > > > >and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse client > > > >needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic > > > >design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that > > > >the project would ever meet. > > > > > > > >I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these contracts > > > >are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. Let me > > > >draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have lots > > > >of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from your > > > >clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you kill > > > >people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you will have > > > >no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software programmers > > > >are so universally threatening to established development (as free > > > >software is universally threatening to commercial software), no clear > > > >bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe. > > > > > > > >I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who have released > > > >things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate the > > > >problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it. > > > > > > > >For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free software > > > >programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the work, it is > > > >good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is accountable > > > >to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is made generally > > > >available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most employers > > > >are suspicious of people who are still in school. > > > > > > > >I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what is needed is > > > >for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. When it is > > > >established that free software development can be done while playing by the > > > >same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd hope), > > > >and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as the > > > >commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial free software > > > >developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any reasonably > > > >honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, only because > > > >dishonesty doesn't pay). > > > > > > > >-scott > > > > > > > > > > > >On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail@cox.net wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have > > > >>>changed a little because one of the things they did for me is sit me > > > >>>down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know if that > > > >>>really offended me because I would probably be running into it. > > > >>> > > > >>>In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a good feeling from the place. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus test, all > > > >>things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they deal with > > > >>porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then don't. > > > >> > > > >>I've been through their interview process as well (although I didn't get > > > >>to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, and I > > > >>asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem to be > > > >>different than the ones I got, likely because the document has been > > > >>revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good to see > > > >>people looking out for themselves, especially developers who don't want > > > >>their work sucked under a corporate umbrella. > > > >> > > > >>The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to keep > > > >>your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, please > > > >>consult yours.): > > > >> > > > >>1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of them are in > > > >>competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even secondary) > > > >>mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks to sign > > > >>off on a written statement of work for each project, as non-conflicting / > > > >>non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the interview > > > >>process. > > > >> > > > >>2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall meet. > > > >>Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to do, and > > > >>work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no coding for > > > >>the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box from the > > > >>office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 'work > > > >>for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the clock. > > > >> > > > >>3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the open > > > >>source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into it, unless > > > >>you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position developing > > > >>Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing dealt > > > >>directly with our primary product, and a community release of my toolset > > > >>would have been potentially damaging to our company's profitability, by > > > >>giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to release would > > > >>not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, then it's > > > >>entirely possible it could be kosher. > > > >> > > > >>Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself. > > > >>Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and out to > > > >>get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared conditions > > > >>to employment will often save you. > > > >> > > > >>- billn > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>>I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt - > > > >>>>heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they wanted > > > >>>>me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual property, > > > >>>>and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview partially because > > > >>>>of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about this, > > > >>>>they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely enough, I > > > >>>>couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false statement, > > > >>>>as I couldn't retract the code I've released. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the contracts > > > >>>>carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth shut, > > > >>>>there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't like > > > >>>>being "owned". > > > >>>> > > > >>>>It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies are well > > > >>>>reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see the > > > >>>>building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people on > > > >>>>tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for someone > > > >>>>more interested in the business side of software than the hobby side. > > > >>>>If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The industry > > > >>>>is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that accepts > > > >>>>payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay > > > >>>>than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is for) > > > >>>>ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, including > > > >>>>setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself > > > >>>>working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>2 cents and that. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Cheers, > > > >>>>-scott > > > >>>> > > > >>>>On 0, Jacob Powers wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D > > > >>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; > > > >>>>> charset="us-ascii" > > > >>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>Software Developer > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>>CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is currently looking > > > >>>>>for a Software Developer. > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>>Job Description: Writes and tests code written from specification > > > >>>>>provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the guidance of team > > > >>>>>leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both internal > > > >>>>>and external clients. > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>>Requirements: > > > >>>>>* Strong understanding of programming concepts and best practices. > > > >>>>>* Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills. > > > >>>>>* Object oriented PERL knowledge. > > > >>>>>* Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor. > > > >>>>>* Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code. > > > >>>>>* Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web applications. > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>>Following Skills a Plus: > > > >>>>>* Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge. > > > >>>>>* Apache experience. > > > >>>>>* MySQL experience. > > > >>>>>* Database design. > > > >>>>>* Shell scripting. > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>>CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a casual > > > >>>>>work environment. All interested applicants should send your resume, > > > >>>>>cover letter and references to jpowers@ccbill.com=20 > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>>For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or email us > > > >>>>>at the above address. > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>>Jacob Powers > > > >>>>>Project Manager > > > >>>>>CCBill.com > > > >>>>>=20 > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From intertwingled at qwest.net Sun Nov 2 16:50:23 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA58A2F.8080507@qwest.net> Bah. I'm starting a Tempe Perlmonger's, so you won't have to worry any more. =P Tony Bill Nash wrote: *SNIP* From scott at illogics.org Sun Nov 2 19:23:27 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed Message-ID: <20031103012327.GL16473@illogics.org> Sorry, I wasn't quite in context, probably because I didn't set up the context correctly. I asked how many people were avoiding Tony because other people in the past have told me that they are. Re: silly stupid thing, what I meant is, it doesn't make sense to have a bunch of people avoiding one person who isn't even there. If there are a lot of people avoiding Tony who would otherwise go to the meetings, don't tell me about it, don't whisper it around to other people as if they care, but talk to Tony - I suggested specifically asking him to RSVP and not attend if he doesnt' RSVP. That allow people to avoid him much more efficiently (in that Tony seldom attends). And this is a reasonable request that Tony is likely to honor. -scott On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > It could be just me. Of the perl community circles I myself travel in, > there are very few people, from those circles, in Phoenix. Tony's > reputation apparantly doesn't precede him here. > > Plain and simple, I don't like Tony, for a fair number of perfectly valid > reasons. His behavior simply exacerbates the issue. I don't think my > non-attendence of local .pm events due to the potential of running into > Tony is a 'silly stupid' thing, it's mere prudence. As inactive as this > list tends to be, the potential benefits of attending these events don't > outweigh the potentially negative effects. > > I see no reason to (further) sully what is likely otherwise a perfectly > good forum for other people because I have personal differences with > another member. > > - billn > > On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Scott Walters wrote: > > > Okey, how many people are avoiding Tony? > > > > I don't want to get involved, but if a bunch of people are avoiding Tony > > for fear of running into him at a meeting, when he actually very seldom > > attends, perhaps something in your mutual interest can be worked out. > > Perhaps Tony can refrain from attending when he hasn't RSVP'd. I don't > > know. This situation just strikes me as one of those silly stupid things. > > > > -scott > > > > > > On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, intertwingled wrote: > > > > > > > Gosh, I hope to meet billn at a future Perlmonger's meeting. =) > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > Actually, you're the specific reason I do not attend Perlmonger meetings. > > > > > > You may/should correctly assume that any and all distance I require you to > > > keep from me extends to both this forum and life in general. > > > > > > - billn > > > > > > > > > > > Scott Walters wrote: > > > > > > > > >billn, > > > > > > > > > >Good advice. > > > > > > > > > >My case was somewhat exceptional - I had released cart code under > > > > >the GPL that included code to bang several bank credit card gateways, > > > > >including some almost entirely undocumented ones, and it was this > > > > >experience (reverse engineering credit card gateways) that they > > > > >were interested in (if it is possible to glean anything from an > > > > >interview). So, before the job was offered, I was already in competition > > > > >with them. The job was offered because because of the experience > > > > >I would bring. I job was out of the question because it was decided > > > > >by their on staff legal personal that my side work might benefit from > > > > >things I learned on the job, and they might some day find themselves > > > > >in competition with my work. > > > > > > > > > >My focus was complete solutions - not turn key ones, but class libraries > > > > >and object frameworks flexible enough to be reused between diverse client > > > > >needs where clients had complex, specific requirements and graphic > > > > >design is done by a seperate party or a team. It is unlikely that > > > > >the project would ever meet. > > > > > > > > > >I don't mean to give ccbill grief - and from what I hear, these contracts > > > > >are pretty standard - but I think this serves as a good parable. Let me > > > > >draw an analogy to my parable =) If you're a hit man, you'll have lots > > > > >of customers, even though you'll garter much fear and respect from your > > > > >clients as they seek square cut deals and clear boundaries. If you kill > > > > >people ramdonly as some sort of amature serial killer, then you will have > > > > >no clients, no business, and no deals. Because free software programmers > > > > >are so universally threatening to established development (as free > > > > >software is universally threatening to commercial software), no clear > > > > >bounds can be drawn, no employer can feel safe. > > > > > > > > > >I was told that ccbill does employ a number of programmers who have released > > > > >things GPL or otherwise, so this parable only serves to illustrate the > > > > >problem - not to paint the scope of it or attitude towards it. > > > > > > > > > >For nervous clients in the past, I've tried other analogies - free software > > > > >programming is like doing a research grant at school - you do the work, it is > > > > >good experience, but the university owns it, and the university is accountable > > > > >to the state and other philanthropic interests, so the code is made generally > > > > >available. No one ever seems to buy these. On the other hand, most employers > > > > >are suspicious of people who are still in school. > > > > > > > > > >I hope you all reach your own conclusions, but I suspect that what is needed is > > > > >for the balance between free and commercial software to stabilize. When it is > > > > >established that free software development can be done while playing by the > > > > >same rules that industry plays by (higher standards, actually, I'd hope), > > > > >and that these rules can only be enforced as well or as poorly as the > > > > >commercial case, things should settle down. Dispite some radicial free software > > > > >developers, most of them have no desire to be a threat to any reasonably > > > > >honest business (and if they are threat to dishonest business, only because > > > > >dishonesty doesn't pay). > > > > > > > > > >-scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 extramail@cox.net wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>>Funny, I interviewed with them 2 years ago. Sounds like they have > > > > >>>changed a little because one of the things they did for me is sit me > > > > >>>down and bring up a pretty narly porno pic. They wanted to know if that > > > > >>>really offended me because I would probably be running into it. > > > > >>> > > > > >>>In general, while they had some cool artwork, I didn't get a good feeling from the place. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>Considering the customer base, that's really a decent litmus test, all > > > > >>things considered. Programmers, engineers, even marketing, they deal with > > > > >>porn. If that's something you can't handle on a daily basis, then don't. > > > > >> > > > > >>I've been through their interview process as well (although I didn't get > > > > >>to see any porn, wtf?) I've seen the IP docs of which you speak, and I > > > > >>asked a lot of the same questions, and the answers you got seem to be > > > > >>different than the ones I got, likely because the document has been > > > > >>revised since then. Your concerns are well founded, and it's good to see > > > > >>people looking out for themselves, especially developers who don't want > > > > >>their work sucked under a corporate umbrella. > > > > >> > > > > >>The long and short of the IP documents they presented, and how to keep > > > > >>your work out of an employer's IP space (Note, I am not a lawyer, please > > > > >>consult yours.): > > > > >> > > > > >>1. Declare your side projects, in writing. So long as none of them are in > > > > >>competition with your prospective employer's primary (or even secondary) > > > > >>mission, then you're likely in the clear. Get their legal folks to sign > > > > >>off on a written statement of work for each project, as non-conflicting / > > > > >>non-infringing, and you're good to go. Bring them up during the interview > > > > >>process. > > > > >> > > > > >>2. Work is work, personal is personal, and never the twain shall meet. > > > > >>Establish *clear* and *hard* boundaries on work you are paid to do, and > > > > >>work you're doing outside of the company context. This means no coding for > > > > >>the company on your home box, and no logging into your home box from the > > > > >>office to tinker with something because you had an idea. The term 'work > > > > >>for hire' applies to *everything* you do while you're on the clock. > > > > >> > > > > >>3. If you want to contribute something you are working on to the open > > > > >>source community, simply ask before you pour a lot of time into it, unless > > > > >>you have to do it anyway. An example: In a previous position developing > > > > >>Network Management tools for a major ISP, the work I was doing dealt > > > > >>directly with our primary product, and a community release of my toolset > > > > >>would have been potentially damaging to our company's profitability, by > > > > >>giving tools to the competition. So long as what you want to release would > > > > >>not offer a competitor an advantage in your particular space, then it's > > > > >>entirely possible it could be kosher. > > > > >> > > > > >>Yes, you should absolutely be taking steps to protect yourself. > > > > >>Conversely, don't be too quick to assume a company is evil and out to > > > > >>get your work. Everything is open to negotiation. Pre-declared conditions > > > > >>to employment will often save you. > > > > >> > > > > >>- billn > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>>>I interviewed with them. I think a few people - Doug and Kurt - > > > > >>>>heard the story. Perhaps they have mellowed out a bit, but they wanted > > > > >>>>me to sign a document that stated that I had no intellectual property, > > > > >>>>and I assigned all of my IP to them. I got the interview partially because > > > > >>>>of free software programming I had done, and when I asked about this, > > > > >>>>they got their lawyers over to "help clarify", and surely enough, I > > > > >>>>couldn't sign the contract because I would be making a false statement, > > > > >>>>as I couldn't retract the code I've released. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>Anyone going down there should be aware of this and read the contracts > > > > >>>>carefully and evaluate your priorities. If you keep your mouth shut, > > > > >>>>there probably would be no problems, but a lot of people don't like > > > > >>>>being "owned". > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>It seemed like a really nice outfit with nice people. Techies are well > > > > >>>>reguarded and respected in the company, and you'd have to see the > > > > >>>>building - very artistic - and the other programmers and people on > > > > >>>>tech support seemed very cool. This could be a great job for someone > > > > >>>>more interested in the business side of software than the hobby side. > > > > >>>>If you're thinking about it, pay a visit to their website. The industry > > > > >>>>is interesting. Final note - if you set up a website that accepts > > > > >>>>payments through ccbill, one of their tech guys (seperate bay > > > > >>>>than the programmers, though I don't know which this post is for) > > > > >>>>ssh's in and sets up the perl scripting for the webmaster, including > > > > >>>>setting up the redirect, forms, and such. You may find yourself > > > > >>>>working on websites you normally wouldn't be looking at. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>2 cents and that. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>Cheers, > > > > >>>>-scott > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>On 0, Jacob Powers wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>------_=_NextPart_001_01C39A50.23DD2E9D > > > > >>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; > > > > >>>>> charset="us-ascii" > > > > >>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>Software Developer > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>>CCBill, a leader in online e-commerce transactions, is currently looking > > > > >>>>>for a Software Developer. > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>>Job Description: Writes and tests code written from specification > > > > >>>>>provided by engineers and prototyping. Works under the guidance of team > > > > >>>>>leads to deliver fully functional and tested software for both internal > > > > >>>>>and external clients. > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>>Requirements: > > > > >>>>>* Strong understanding of programming concepts and best practices. > > > > >>>>>* Excellent PERL and SQL programming skills. > > > > >>>>>* Object oriented PERL knowledge. > > > > >>>>>* Experience using Linux/Unix OS and the VI editor. > > > > >>>>>* Ability to thoroughly test and troubleshoot code. > > > > >>>>>* Experience using HTML and JavaScript to build web applications. > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>>Following Skills a Plus: > > > > >>>>>* Java, PHP, and C/C++ knowledge. > > > > >>>>>* Apache experience. > > > > >>>>>* MySQL experience. > > > > >>>>>* Database design. > > > > >>>>>* Shell scripting. > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>>CCBill offers a wide range of benefits, competitive pay and a casual > > > > >>>>>work environment. All interested applicants should send your resume, > > > > >>>>>cover letter and references to jpowers@ccbill.com=20 > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>>For more information please see our website www.ccbill.com or email us > > > > >>>>>at the above address. > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>>Jacob Powers > > > > >>>>>Project Manager > > > > >>>>>CCBill.com > > > > >>>>>=20 > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From aj at exiledplanet.org Mon Nov 3 20:11:26 2003 From: aj at exiledplanet.org (Andrew Johnson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed In-Reply-To: <20031103012327.GL16473@illogics.org> References: <20031103012327.GL16473@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3FA70ACE.4080103@exiledplanet.org> Wait, who is Tony again? ;-) --aj Scott Walters wrote: >Sorry, I wasn't quite in context, probably because I didn't set up the >context correctly. > >I asked how many people were avoiding Tony because other people in the past >have told me that they are. > >Re: silly stupid thing, what I meant is, it doesn't make sense to have a bunch >of people avoiding one person who isn't even there. > > [snip] From intertwingled at qwest.net Tue Nov 4 02:00:16 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Avoiding Tony. Was: Re: Phoenix.pm: Software Developer Needed In-Reply-To: <3FA70ACE.4080103@exiledplanet.org> References: <20031103012327.GL16473@illogics.org> <3FA70ACE.4080103@exiledplanet.org> Message-ID: <3FA75C90.9090104@qwest.net> Andrew Johnson wrote: > Wait, who is Tony again? ;-) > --aj That would be me. =) Tony From doug at phoenixinternet.com Tue Nov 4 16:01:07 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Meeting 11/06/2003 Message-ID: <3FA821A3.9070902@phoenixinternet.com> Let's try this again... We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, October 16th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. I will be presenting Perl 101. From doug at phoenixinternet.com Tue Nov 4 16:03:05 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: New email address Message-ID: <3FA82219.7020204@phoenixinternet.com> If any of you are trying to reach me at work, use this address: doug@phoenixinternet.com My old address (doug.miles@bpxinternet.com) is dead. From doug at phoenixinternet.com Wed Nov 5 13:52:18 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 11/06/2003 Message-ID: <3FA954F2.2030602@phoenixinternet.com> Please RSVP... We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, October 16th at 7:00PM. It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. I will be presenting Perl 101. From intertwingled at qwest.net Wed Nov 5 14:04:41 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 11/06/2003 In-Reply-To: <3FA954F2.2030602@phoenixinternet.com> References: <3FA954F2.2030602@phoenixinternet.com> Message-ID: <3FA957D9.5010502@qwest.net> I won't be attending. =) Tony Douglas E. Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, October 16th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting Perl 101. > > > > > From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Wed Nov 5 14:09:26 2003 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Reminder: Meeting 11/06/2003 In-Reply-To: <3FA954F2.2030602@phoenixinternet.com> Message-ID: Just getting around to that... I'll see you there tomorrow! -- Mike On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 12:52 PM, Douglas E. Miles wrote: > Please RSVP... > > We'll be having a Phoenix.pm meeting Thursday, October 16th at 7:00PM. > It will be held at Bowne, which is located at 1500 N. Central Avenue, > which is on the Southwest corner of Central and McDowell. The parking > lot is gated, so just press the button on the intercom, and tell the > receptionist that you are there for the Perl meeting. Park in the lot > that is straight ahead from the entrance on the South side of McDowell. > Park in any uncovered, non-reserved space. Proceed to the main lobby, > which is on the Northeast side of the parking lot. > > I will be presenting Perl 101. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From intertwingled at qwest.net Mon Nov 10 08:02:47 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <3FAF9A87.9050604@qwest.net> Tempe/East Valley Perlmongers has been approved. More info to follow shortly. Tony From billn at billn.net Mon Nov 10 09:10:05 2003 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <3FAF9A87.9050604@qwest.net> Message-ID: Did you note in your charter that it's been formed with explicit exclusionary intent of specific members of the perl community? Hard to believe it was 'approved' if you did. - billn On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, intertwingled wrote: > > Tempe/East Valley Perlmongers has been approved. More info to follow > shortly. > > Tony > > From intertwingled at qwest.net Mon Nov 10 09:42:00 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FAFB1C8.9090805@qwest.net> Nah, I was just teasing about that. Everyone will be invited who wants to attend. =) Tony Bill Nash wrote: >Did you note in your charter that it's been formed with explicit >exclusionary intent of specific members of the perl community? > >Hard to believe it was 'approved' if you did. > >- billn > >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, intertwingled wrote: > > > >>Tempe/East Valley Perlmongers has been approved. More info to follow >>shortly. >> >>Tony >> >> >> >> > > > > > From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Mon Nov 10 09:53:54 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. References: <3FAFB1C8.9090805@qwest.net> Message-ID: <16303.46226.594755.542108@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> Can we invite the people who don't want to attend? Like the local php group? :-) \_ SMTP quoth intertwingled on 11/10/2003 08:42 as having spake thusly: \_ \_ Nah, I was just teasing about that. Everyone will be invited who wants \_ to attend. =) \_ \_ Tony \_ \_ Bill Nash wrote: \_ \_ >Did you note in your charter that it's been formed with explicit \_ >exclusionary intent of specific members of the perl community? \_ > \_ >Hard to believe it was 'approved' if you did. \_ > \_ >- billn \_ > \_ >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, intertwingled wrote: \_ > \_ > \_ > \_ >>Tempe/East Valley Perlmongers has been approved. More info to follow \_ >>shortly. \_ >> \_ >>Tony \_ >> \_ >> \_ >> \_ >> \_ > \_ > \_ > \_ > \_ > \_ \_ From eden.li at asu.edu Mon Nov 10 09:52:07 2003 From: eden.li at asu.edu (eden li) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <16303.46226.594755.542108@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> References: <3FAFB1C8.9090805@qwest.net> <16303.46226.594755.542108@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> Message-ID: <3FAFB427.8090502@asu.edu> Or bill nash? David A. Sinck wrote: > Can we invite the people who don't want to attend? Like the local php > group? :-) From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 10:30:16 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <3FAFB427.8090502@asu.edu> Message-ID: Ummm... did I join this group at a weird time? You know, multiple PM's "battling" for members? ;) Whatever the case, I wanted to introduce myself. While I left my "Hello! My Name Is" tag at home, I'll tell you that people usually call me Scott. When they're not PO'd at me. I've been in Web Development for the past 8 years, and have been singing the praises of Perl for CGI (among other uses...) development for years. Heck, I'll even admit in public that I *like* PerlScript under IIS/ASP. I'll duck after I'm done typing. :) I recently moved to Arizona, and it's about time I jumped first into the local user groups/community. I'm currently working for a local IT company doing *gasp* sales. It's a startup in *desperate* need of a good developer (like myself...) and as soon as the sales staff is built up, I get to get back behind a keyboard and do what I love -- pound those keys like a rabid monkey and make their systems get up and dance. So, introductions aside, I'll be crouching over here in the corner avoiding over-ripe fruit chunked at my melon for the IIS/ASP comment earlier. Scott Thompson I'll Be Here All Week, Be Sure To Tip Your Waitresses -----Original Message----- From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of eden li Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:52 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Or bill nash? David A. Sinck wrote: > Can we invite the people who don't want to attend? Like the local php > group? :-) From Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com Mon Nov 10 10:34:16 2003 From: Craig.Frooninckx at acxiom.com (Frooninckx Craig - cfroon) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <6B681776AD07ED4EBEEA5D961E431088044E63B2@phxmx02.corp.acxiom.net> Welcome Scott, all in all this is a good group of Perl programmers, and once in a while, as with any group, there is a clash in differences of opinions. Eventually we'll all get excited and share code or problems that the group as a whole like to work on. If not, I'll start a Deer Valley/Anthem chapter ;-> -Craig -----Original Message----- From: Scott Thompson [mailto:scottcodes@thepurplehaze.com] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:30 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Ummm... did I join this group at a weird time? You know, multiple PM's "battling" for members? ;) Whatever the case, I wanted to introduce myself. While I left my "Hello! My Name Is" tag at home, I'll tell you that people usually call me Scott. When they're not PO'd at me. I've been in Web Development for the past 8 years, and have been singing the praises of Perl for CGI (among other uses...) development for years. Heck, I'll even admit in public that I *like* PerlScript under IIS/ASP. I'll duck after I'm done typing. :) I recently moved to Arizona, and it's about time I jumped first into the local user groups/community. I'm currently working for a local IT company doing *gasp* sales. It's a startup in *desperate* need of a good developer (like myself...) and as soon as the sales staff is built up, I get to get back behind a keyboard and do what I love -- pound those keys like a rabid monkey and make their systems get up and dance. So, introductions aside, I'll be crouching over here in the corner avoiding over-ripe fruit chunked at my melon for the IIS/ASP comment earlier. Scott Thompson I'll Be Here All Week, Be Sure To Tip Your Waitresses -----Original Message----- From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of eden li Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:52 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Or bill nash? David A. Sinck wrote: > Can we invite the people who don't want to attend? Like the local php > group? :-) ********************************************************************** The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. From billn at billn.net Mon Nov 10 10:52:12 2003 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <3FAFB1C8.9090805@qwest.net> Message-ID: The point I'm trying to make, however backhanded, is that your reasons for forming another group, for all intents and purposes, suck. It's purely typical of the behavior that encourages folks like me to avoid you, ala knee-jerk reactionism and poorly thought out behavior. However much the curmudgeon I may seem throughout this exchange, forming a second local PM group is a division of resources that will simply fracture the local community and spread resources even thinner, as you attempt to build a community base at the expense of another. If it's simply forming another group that reduces the odds of folks (who take issue with your personal characteristics) running into you, that's addressing the *symptom* and not the *problem*. There are days I really hate having to play the bad guy, and say the things people may not want to hear, but they need to be said, and should be said before any damage is incurred. - billn On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, intertwingled wrote: > Nah, I was just teasing about that. Everyone will be invited who wants > to attend. =) > > Tony > > Bill Nash wrote: > > >Did you note in your charter that it's been formed with explicit > >exclusionary intent of specific members of the perl community? > > > >Hard to believe it was 'approved' if you did. > > > >- billn > > > >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, intertwingled wrote: > > > > > > > >>Tempe/East Valley Perlmongers has been approved. More info to follow > >>shortly. > >> > >>Tony > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > From billn at billn.net Mon Nov 10 10:52:25 2003 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <3FAFB427.8090502@asu.edu> Message-ID: =P On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, eden li wrote: > Or bill nash? > > David A. Sinck wrote: > > Can we invite the people who don't want to attend? Like the local php > > group? :-) > > From TomA at fh.org Mon Nov 10 10:57:19 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE01363811@mail.int.fh.org> Hi Craig, I'm fairly new to the group and Perl. My main project right now is converting our web site to a content management system called WebGUI that is written in Perl. As part of that I'll be writing a few Perl scripts too. I too like IIS and ASP so Scott, you're not alone. Since Deer Valley/Anthem is my neck of the woods, I could probably actually attend a meeting in that area. Downtown and the East side at night just don't work for me. And Scott, while I have not said anything, I too have grown weary of all the childish snipping about avoiding people at meetings... Tom -----Original Message----- From: Frooninckx Craig - cfroon [mailto:Craig.Frooninckx@acxiom.com] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:34 AM To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Welcome Scott, all in all this is a good group of Perl programmers, and once in a while, as with any group, there is a clash in differences of opinions. Eventually we'll all get excited and share code or problems that the group as a whole like to work on. If not, I'll start a Deer Valley/Anthem chapter ;-> -Craig -----Original Message----- From: Scott Thompson [mailto:scottcodes@thepurplehaze.com] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:30 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Ummm... did I join this group at a weird time? You know, multiple PM's "battling" for members? ;) Whatever the case, I wanted to introduce myself. While I left my "Hello! My Name Is" tag at home, I'll tell you that people usually call me Scott. When they're not PO'd at me. I've been in Web Development for the past 8 years, and have been singing the praises of Perl for CGI (among other uses...) development for years. Heck, I'll even admit in public that I *like* PerlScript under IIS/ASP. I'll duck after I'm done typing. :) I recently moved to Arizona, and it's about time I jumped first into the local user groups/community. I'm currently working for a local IT company doing *gasp* sales. It's a startup in *desperate* need of a good developer (like myself...) and as soon as the sales staff is built up, I get to get back behind a keyboard and do what I love -- pound those keys like a rabid monkey and make their systems get up and dance. So, introductions aside, I'll be crouching over here in the corner avoiding over-ripe fruit chunked at my melon for the IIS/ASP comment earlier. Scott Thompson I'll Be Here All Week, Be Sure To Tip Your Waitresses -----Original Message----- From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of eden li Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:52 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Or bill nash? David A. Sinck wrote: > Can we invite the people who don't want to attend? Like the local php > group? :-) ********************************************************************** The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 11:39:14 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE01363811@mail.int.fh.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Tom Achtenberg > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:57 AM > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > > Hi Craig, I'm fairly new to the group and Perl. My main project > right now is converting our web site to a content management > system called WebGUI that is written in Perl. As part of that > I'll be writing a few Perl scripts too. I too like IIS and ASP > so Scott, you're not alone. > > Since Deer Valley/Anthem is my neck of the woods, I could > probably actually attend a meeting in that area. Downtown and > the East side at night just don't work for me. And Scott, while > I have not said anything, I too have grown weary of all the > childish snipping about avoiding people at meetings... > So, when you and I are at a meeting at the same time, we can specifically NOT avoid each other, and go in our own corner (rotting-fruit-shield in place...) and discuss PerlScript/ASP. Cool. :) FYI, feel free to bounce any ideas off my head. As the fruit stains on the wall can attest, I'm the penultimate rubber-necker. All joking aside, the reason I asked if I was coming into a politically volatile situation was to know -- before I show up -- who's pissed at who. I hate to boil it down to that, but hey -- politics among passionate persons can make long-time enemies if you talk to the wrong person. I don't wanna be burning any bridges as I'm crossing them. At the same time, far be it from me to avoid Person A because Person B says I should. I'd just hate to think that Person B would start avoiding me because I said "Hi" to Person A. *sigh* Maybe I should lurk for a while, eh? :) Scott From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 11:47:06 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <20031110174706.GB29695@illogics.org> Hi other Scott, No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more common. Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands to yourself when asked to do. -scott On 0, Scott Thompson wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Tom Achtenberg > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:57 AM > > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > > > > > Hi Craig, I'm fairly new to the group and Perl. My main project > > right now is converting our web site to a content management > > system called WebGUI that is written in Perl. As part of that > > I'll be writing a few Perl scripts too. I too like IIS and ASP > > so Scott, you're not alone. > > > > Since Deer Valley/Anthem is my neck of the woods, I could > > probably actually attend a meeting in that area. Downtown and > > the East side at night just don't work for me. And Scott, while > > I have not said anything, I too have grown weary of all the > > childish snipping about avoiding people at meetings... > > > > So, when you and I are at a meeting at the same time, we can specifically > NOT avoid each other, and go in our own corner (rotting-fruit-shield in > place...) and discuss PerlScript/ASP. > > Cool. :) > > FYI, feel free to bounce any ideas off my head. As the fruit stains on the > wall can attest, I'm the penultimate rubber-necker. > > All joking aside, the reason I asked if I was coming into a politically > volatile situation was to know -- before I show up -- who's pissed at who. > > I hate to boil it down to that, but hey -- politics among passionate persons > can make long-time enemies if you talk to the wrong person. I don't wanna > be burning any bridges as I'm crossing them. At the same time, far be it > from me to avoid Person A because Person B says I should. I'd just hate to > think that Person B would start avoiding me because I said "Hi" to Person A. > > *sigh* Maybe I should lurk for a while, eh? :) > > Scott > From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 12:03:53 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <20031110174706.GB29695@illogics.org> Message-ID: Thanks other Scott. My pockets are warm and comfy. NP there. And I'll be around for a while. I think I might honestly be able to market my dermal layers to law enforcement and the military, should I choose to do so. :) Scott Thompson > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 10:47 AM > To: Scott Thompson > Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > > Hi other Scott, > > No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) > > On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more common. > Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because > something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to > mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. > > We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands > to yourself when asked to do. > > -scott > > On 0, Scott Thompson wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > > > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Tom Achtenberg > > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:57 AM > > > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > > > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > > > > > > > > Hi Craig, I'm fairly new to the group and Perl. My main project > > > right now is converting our web site to a content management > > > system called WebGUI that is written in Perl. As part of that > > > I'll be writing a few Perl scripts too. I too like IIS and ASP > > > so Scott, you're not alone. > > > > > > Since Deer Valley/Anthem is my neck of the woods, I could > > > probably actually attend a meeting in that area. Downtown and > > > the East side at night just don't work for me. And Scott, while > > > I have not said anything, I too have grown weary of all the > > > childish snipping about avoiding people at meetings... > > > > > > > So, when you and I are at a meeting at the same time, we can > specifically > > NOT avoid each other, and go in our own corner (rotting-fruit-shield in > > place...) and discuss PerlScript/ASP. > > > > Cool. :) > > > > FYI, feel free to bounce any ideas off my head. As the fruit > stains on the > > wall can attest, I'm the penultimate rubber-necker. > > > > All joking aside, the reason I asked if I was coming into a politically > > volatile situation was to know -- before I show up -- who's > pissed at who. > > > > I hate to boil it down to that, but hey -- politics among > passionate persons > > can make long-time enemies if you talk to the wrong person. I > don't wanna > > be burning any bridges as I'm crossing them. At the same time, > far be it > > from me to avoid Person A because Person B says I should. I'd > just hate to > > think that Person B would start avoiding me because I said "Hi" > to Person A. > > > > *sigh* Maybe I should lurk for a while, eh? :) > > > > Scott > > > From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Mon Nov 10 12:30:26 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. References: <3FAFB1C8.9090805@qwest.net> Message-ID: <16303.55618.257906.288775@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> \_ SMTP quoth Bill Nash on 11/10/2003 09:52 as having spake thusly: \_ forming a second local PM group is a division of resources that \_ will simply fracture the local community and spread resources even \_ thinner, OTOH, if there are a lot of lurkers, having something not in phx proper may actually make "the locals" grow since my motivation for driving into downtown during/after rush hour is ... really low. Then again, I've been more active on PLUG and have made maybe three of their meetings in ... 5+ years. :-) The danger of the conversation I've been seeing is that some may decide that some people(s) are whack jobs and this just isn't a friendly venue. Like efnet #perl :-) Granted opn #perl has teeth from time to time, but I've seen a lot less militicism on opn and we don't usually beat offenders until the second offense. :-) My $0.02. I'll ride through this, but I'd just as soon it went back to friendly-local-pm. David From TomA at fh.org Mon Nov 10 12:42:31 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE01363818@mail.int.fh.org> David, what you left out is the PLUG has 3 distinct groups that meet on different nights on the West side, East side and central areas. They seem to work together well the most part. -----Original Message----- From: David A. Sinck [mailto:phx-pm-list@grueslayer.com] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 11:30 AM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. \_ SMTP quoth Bill Nash on 11/10/2003 09:52 as having spake thusly: \_ forming a second local PM group is a division of resources that \_ will simply fracture the local community and spread resources even \_ thinner, OTOH, if there are a lot of lurkers, having something not in phx proper may actually make "the locals" grow since my motivation for driving into downtown during/after rush hour is ... really low. Then again, I've been more active on PLUG and have made maybe three of their meetings in ... 5+ years. :-) The danger of the conversation I've been seeing is that some may decide that some people(s) are whack jobs and this just isn't a friendly venue. Like efnet #perl :-) Granted opn #perl has teeth from time to time, but I've seen a lot less militicism on opn and we don't usually beat offenders until the second offense. :-) My $0.02. I'll ride through this, but I'd just as soon it went back to friendly-local-pm. David From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Mon Nov 10 13:09:39 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. References: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE01363818@mail.int.fh.org> Message-ID: <16303.57971.616683.936121@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> \_ SMTP quoth Tom Achtenberg on 11/10/2003 11:42 as having spake thusly: \_ David, what you left out is the PLUG has 3 distinct groups that \_ meet on different nights on the West side, East side and central \_ areas. They seem to work together well the most part. and despite that... I've still only made three meetings. :-) David From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 13:47:44 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 Message-ID: OK, here's a Perl-related post/question. :) While burning CD-ROM backups on Win32, I discovered that several paths are longer than the ISO standard allows. In building a script that reports on paths that are longer than that standard (255 chars, I think...), what suggestions does anyone have on best approaches? Would accessing Win32 FileObject be the best approach? Or simply reading dirs/files natively (within Perl...)? I'm thinking about *starting* with the Win32 FO and seeing how that goes. Suggestions most welcome. Scott Thompson From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Mon Nov 10 14:11:36 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 References: Message-ID: <16303.61688.790058.874430@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> \_ SMTP quoth Scott Thompson on 11/10/2003 12:47 as having spake thusly: \_ \_ OK, here's a Perl-related post/question. :) \_ \_ While burning CD-ROM backups on Win32, I discovered that several paths are \_ longer than the ISO standard allows. \_ \_ In building a script that reports on paths that are longer than that \_ standard (255 chars, I think...), what suggestions does anyone have on best \_ approaches? Check into "rock ridge extensions" IIRC. [Scott Walters: let me know if you've not gotten 2 off-list emails from me by now :-] David From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 14:23:48 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 Message-ID: <20031110202348.GI29695@illogics.org> I'm the last person to ask about Win32 (or BeOS, or DG-UX, or...) but I suggest the excellent File::Find. Think of it as a kind of opendir() that works recursively. The rename() built-in should be all that you need to rename the files. If you did anything more complex, then the Win32 object might be handy (depending on what it does). If you don't want to rename them at all, I think the mkisofs program (google for it) lets you create an .iso file and stuff files into it and have them named things completely differant than their actual name. This would be the easiest way to get rid of excessively verbose path information. -scott On 0, Scott Thompson wrote: > > OK, here's a Perl-related post/question. :) > > While burning CD-ROM backups on Win32, I discovered that several paths are > longer than the ISO standard allows. > > In building a script that reports on paths that are longer than that > standard (255 chars, I think...), what suggestions does anyone have on best > approaches? > > Would accessing Win32 FileObject be the best approach? Or simply reading > dirs/files natively (within Perl...)? > > I'm thinking about *starting* with the Win32 FO and seeing how that goes. > Suggestions most welcome. > > Scott Thompson > From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 14:23:48 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 Message-ID: <20031110202348.GI29695@illogics.org> I'm the last person to ask about Win32 (or BeOS, or DG-UX, or...) but I suggest the excellent File::Find. Think of it as a kind of opendir() that works recursively. The rename() built-in should be all that you need to rename the files. If you did anything more complex, then the Win32 object might be handy (depending on what it does). If you don't want to rename them at all, I think the mkisofs program (google for it) lets you create an .iso file and stuff files into it and have them named things completely differant than their actual name. This would be the easiest way to get rid of excessively verbose path information. -scott On 0, Scott Thompson wrote: > > OK, here's a Perl-related post/question. :) > > While burning CD-ROM backups on Win32, I discovered that several paths are > longer than the ISO standard allows. > > In building a script that reports on paths that are longer than that > standard (255 chars, I think...), what suggestions does anyone have on best > approaches? > > Would accessing Win32 FileObject be the best approach? Or simply reading > dirs/files natively (within Perl...)? > > I'm thinking about *starting* with the Win32 FO and seeing how that goes. > Suggestions most welcome. > > Scott Thompson > From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 14:33:04 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 In-Reply-To: <16303.61688.790058.874430@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of David A. Sinck > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 1:12 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 > > Check into "rock ridge extensions" IIRC. > Figures there would be a simple answer like, "use a FS that handles long paths...". Doh!! For sake of Perl argument, tho, how would you go about recursively parsing paths to find those longer than X? Scott From phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com Mon Nov 10 14:46:49 2003 From: phx-pm-list at grueslayer.com (David A. Sinck) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 References: <16303.61688.790058.874430@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> Message-ID: <16303.63801.890921.170490@magnitude.righthandgraphics.com> \_ SMTP quoth Scott Thompson on 11/10/2003 13:33 as having spake thusly: \_ \_ > -----Original Message----- \_ > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org \_ > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of David A. Sinck \_ > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 1:12 PM \_ > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org \_ > Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 \_ > \_ > Check into "rock ridge extensions" IIRC. \_ > \_ \_ Figures there would be a simple answer like, "use a FS that handles long \_ paths...". \_ \_ Doh!! \_ \_ For sake of Perl argument, tho, how would you go about recursively parsing \_ paths to find those longer than X? Me, I'd probable knee jerk for clever recursive algorithm with readdir.... But I was brought up under the evils of Scheme so think recursion is good. :-) David From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 14:48:35 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 In-Reply-To: <20031110202348.GI29695@illogics.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 1:24 PM > To: Scott Thompson > Cc: Phoenix-Pm-List@Happyfunball. Pm. Org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 > > > I'm the last person to ask about Win32 (or BeOS, or DG-UX, or...) > but I suggest the excellent File::Find. Think of it as a kind of > opendir() that works recursively. The rename() built-in should be > all that you need to rename the files. If you did anything more > complex, then the Win32 object might be handy (depending on what > it does). If you don't want to rename them at all, I think the > mkisofs program (google for it) lets you create an .iso file > and stuff files into it and have them named things completely > differant than their actual name. This would be the easiest > way to get rid of excessively verbose path information. > And, of course, a module exists to do it, too. Devil's advocate, for those on the list who might be New To Perl, here's what I'm working on so far: ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ #!perl -w use strict; # Global variables... my $pathRoot = "C:\\Downloads\\"; # Main code section... opendir (ROOT, $pathRoot) || die "Cannot open directory $pathRoot: $!\n"; procDir($pathRoot); closedir (ROOT); # Function code section... sub procDir { my $localRoot = shift; my @pathObjects = readdir(ROOT); print "$localRoot contains:\n\tPath Length\tName"; foreach my $pathObject (@pathObjects) { if (-f "$localRoot\\$pathObject") { print "\n\t" . length($localRoot . $pathObject) . "\t$pathObject"; } } } ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ I'm planning on calling procDir() recursively for each -d found. but I haven't got that far yet. Thoughts?? Scott From extramail at cox.net Mon Nov 10 17:08:29 2003 From: extramail at cox.net (extramail@cox.net) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <20031110230827.NTRL9010.fed1mtao08.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> my $interest_in_driving_downtown_for_meetings = 0; I've been lurking for 3 years and have never attended a meeting. Just too far away with traffic and all make it too time consuming. Lem'me know when the North Valley group starts. :-) -Joel From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 17:32:37 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <20031110233237.GE2580@illogics.org> You're welcome to attend Fountain Hills Perl Mongers meetings. They meet about 45 minutes before Phoenix Perl Mongers meetings, on the same day, in my drive way. -scott On 0, extramail@cox.net wrote: > > my $interest_in_driving_downtown_for_meetings = 0; > > I've been lurking for 3 years and have never attended a meeting. Just too far away with traffic and all make it too time consuming. > > Lem'me know when the North Valley group starts. :-) > > -Joel > From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 18:11:13 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:08 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Thompson > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 1:49 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 > > Devil's advocate, for those on the list who might be New To Perl, > here's what I'm working on so far: > Here's the "final" version I got working. FYI, the output is "designed" to be dumped into a CSV file for review in Microsoft Excel. Comments and suggestions definitely welcome. ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ #!perl -w use strict; # Global variables... my $pathDepth = 0; my $pathRoot = $ARGV[0] ? $ARGV[0] : "C:\\Program Files"; my $pathMax = $ARGV[1] ? $ARGV[1] : 50; # Main code section... procDir($pathRoot); # Function code section... sub procDir { my $localRoot = shift; opendir (ROOT, $localRoot) || die "Cannot open directory $pathRoot: $!\n"; my @pathSubdirs = grep {!/^\./ && -d "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); rewinddir (ROOT); my @pathFiles = grep {-f "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); closedir (ROOT); foreach my $pathFile (@pathFiles) { if (length("$localRoot\\$pathFile") > $pathMax) { print "\"$localRoot\\$pathFile\"," . length("$localRoot\\$pathFile") . "\n"; } } foreach my $pathSubdir (@pathSubdirs) { $pathDepth++; procDir("$localRoot\\$pathSubdir"); $pathDepth--; } } ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ Scott From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 18:19:04 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 Message-ID: <20031111001904.GF2580@illogics.org> > opendir (ROOT, $localRoot) || die "Cannot open directory $pathRoot: $!\n"; A few minor stylic things: "or" is like "||" but is very low precedence, so you could write that without the parens. This can make code more concise (which may not be a good thing), but it also serves to avoid precedent accidents, where you alternate on the last value in a list or an argument rather the return of the function call. Also, modern perls (was it 5.6.0 that did this?) let you use lexicals for filehandles. When the current scope is left, the filehandle is closed, and it is easy to store references to them and bless them. In fact, they're automatically blessed into IO::Handle if you use IO::Handle. Also also, if you use the "3 arg" version of open, your scripts are more secure. Perl promotes a nasty command interjection problem with the two arg one - if you read the filename from user code and it contains any shell meta characters, then Perl uses those characters to decide whether you're opening a pipe to a program you want to run (run! danger!) or write to a file or read to a file or append or whatever. Also also also, if you put a \n on the end of a die string, it will prevent Perl from adding context to the error message (line and such), which may or may not be what you want. Hence: opendir my $root, '>', $localRoot or die "Cannot open directory $pathRoot: $!"; Had that been a file you opened, you could do things like: $root->flush(); # flush written data Perl, being an inelegant language, requires us programmers to work overtime on style. All of which is a round about way of saying I don't see any major problems =) -scott On 0, Scott Thompson wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Thompson > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 1:49 PM > > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 > > > > Devil's advocate, for those on the list who might be New To Perl, > > here's what I'm working on so far: > > > > Here's the "final" version I got working. FYI, the output is "designed" to > be dumped into a CSV file for review in Microsoft Excel. > > Comments and suggestions definitely welcome. > > ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ > #!perl -w > use strict; > > # Global variables... > my $pathDepth = 0; > my $pathRoot = $ARGV[0] ? $ARGV[0] : "C:\\Program Files"; > my $pathMax = $ARGV[1] ? $ARGV[1] : 50; > > # Main code section... > procDir($pathRoot); > > # Function code section... > sub procDir { > my $localRoot = shift; > opendir (ROOT, $localRoot) || die "Cannot open directory $pathRoot: $!\n"; > my @pathSubdirs = grep {!/^\./ && -d "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); > rewinddir (ROOT); > my @pathFiles = grep {-f "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); > closedir (ROOT); > > foreach my $pathFile (@pathFiles) { > if (length("$localRoot\\$pathFile") > $pathMax) { > print "\"$localRoot\\$pathFile\"," . length("$localRoot\\$pathFile") . > "\n"; > } > } > foreach my $pathSubdir (@pathSubdirs) { > $pathDepth++; > procDir("$localRoot\\$pathSubdir"); > $pathDepth--; > } > } > ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ > > Scott > From billn at billn.net Mon Nov 10 19:55:23 2003 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Dynamic code loads under POE. In-Reply-To: <20031111001904.GF2580@illogics.org> Message-ID: In actual Perl related news, rcaputo posted my long overdue write up on dynamic code reloading within live POE processes: http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Cookbook/Dynamic_Loading Discuss. =) - billn From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 20:23:33 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Dynamic code loads under POE. Message-ID: <20031111022333.GI2580@illogics.org> Try Coro. You don't have to give up your call stack when you're done servicing a request (nor are you forced to retail all of it in inaccessable limbo as you re-enter the event handler). I've been thinking of doing a presentation on Coro, if I ever get around to rewriting my Gnutella server (ugh, v0.6 is twice as long as the v0.4 specs). Right now it uses its own event inner loop (about 40 lines) with lots and lots of closures. It preserves lexical data this way, but loses the stack in the process, which is one better than a naive event handler. Rewritten to use Coro, each seperate client connection can have, and maintain, its own stack, with its own function nesting, its own state machines, dispatch tables, subroutines to expect in and out of band protocol data... without having to redispatch everytime a fragment of data comes in, and keeping all of the intermediate state. And shouldn't you be able to post something yourself on a Wiki anyway? -scott On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > In actual Perl related news, rcaputo posted my long overdue write up on > dynamic code reloading within live POE processes: > > http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Cookbook/Dynamic_Loading > > Discuss. =) > > - billn > > From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 20:25:21 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Dynamic code loads under POE. Message-ID: <20031111022521.GJ2580@illogics.org> Oh, and dngor wakes up every time I mention the fact that "POE sucks!" and "corrects me" =) Perhaps you could give a "POE does not suck" counter presentation. Then again, I don't like wasting time on idiots like myself either =) -scott On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > In actual Perl related news, rcaputo posted my long overdue write up on > dynamic code reloading within live POE processes: > > http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Cookbook/Dynamic_Loading > > Discuss. =) > > - billn > > From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Mon Nov 10 20:59:43 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 In-Reply-To: <20031111001904.GF2580@illogics.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 5:19 PM > To: Scott Thompson > Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 > > A few minor stylic things: > > "or" is like "||" but is very low precedence, so you could write > Old habits die hard. I'll take a stake to this one. :) > > Also, modern perls (was it 5.6.0 that did this?) let you use > I kinda-sorta knew this, but see my answer to point 1. FYI, ActiveState 5.6.1 Build 635 on Win32. > > Also also, if you use the "3 arg" version of open, your scripts are > If promoting 3 args, shouldn't this be the "Also also also" point? But, yer right. Now to be incorporated into all Perl'ing -- 3 Arg Open(s). > > Also also also, if you put a \n on the end of a die string, it > Good to know. Just put it there for Pretty Output sake. That's a loong 'a', BTW, as in 'rake'. ;) > > Hence: > > opendir my $root, '>', $localRoot or die "Cannot open directory > $pathRoot: $!"; > > Had that been a file you opened, you could do things like: > > $root->flush(); # flush written data > > Perl, being an inelegant language, requires us programmers to > work overtime on style. > Very nice. Points taken, stored, and put to Good Use. > > All of which is a round about way of saying I don't see any major > problems =) > Kewl. Thanks for the input. Scott T. The Newer One --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/2003 From friedman at highwire.stanford.edu Mon Nov 10 21:16:54 2003 From: friedman at highwire.stanford.edu (Michael Friedman) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <80313642-13F5-11D8-AB13-000A956CAA2C@highwire.stanford.edu> Scott T, One other thing you might want to do with this is to compress the two readdir() calls into a single call. No matter how much you do in straight code, it'll be faster than going back to disk. (or, hopefully, disk cache. I've never used perl on Windows, so I couldn't tell you if it caches properly or not.) So instead of this: > my @pathSubdirs = grep {!/^\./ && -d "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); > rewinddir (ROOT); > my @pathFiles = grep {-f "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); Just get the directory listing once: my @nodesInThisPath = readdir(ROOT); my @pathSubdirs = grep {!/^\./ && -d "$localRoot\\$_"} @nodesInThisPath; my @pathFiles = grep {-f "$localRoot\\$_"} @nodesInThisPath; Although, you're still doing a file metadata lookup on each file twice... I believe grep() is optimized in some ways, but you could avoid a lot of the file lookups by making your own loop through the nodes in the directory: my @nodesInThisPath = readdir(ROOT); foreach my $node (@nodesInThisPath) { if ($node =~ m/^\.+/o) { # ignore . and .. next; } stat("$localRoot\\$_"); push(@pathSubdirs, "$localRoot\\$_") if -d _; push(@pathFiles, "$localRoot\\$_") if -f _; } There. Now you read the dir once and test each file once (with stat and the special '_' filemetadatahandle). Have I optimized it into unreadability yet? Have fun! -- Mike On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 05:11 PM, Scott Thompson wrote: > Here's the "final" version I got working. FYI, the output is > "designed" to > be dumped into a CSV file for review in Microsoft Excel. > > Comments and suggestions definitely welcome. > > ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ > #!perl -w > use strict; > > # Global variables... > my $pathDepth = 0; > my $pathRoot = $ARGV[0] ? $ARGV[0] : "C:\\Program Files"; > my $pathMax = $ARGV[1] ? $ARGV[1] : 50; > > # Main code section... > procDir($pathRoot); > > # Function code section... > sub procDir { > my $localRoot = shift; > opendir (ROOT, $localRoot) || die "Cannot open directory $pathRoot: > $!\n"; > my @pathSubdirs = grep {!/^\./ && -d "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); > rewinddir (ROOT); > my @pathFiles = grep {-f "$localRoot\\$_"} readdir(ROOT); > closedir (ROOT); > > foreach my $pathFile (@pathFiles) { > if (length("$localRoot\\$pathFile") > $pathMax) { > print "\"$localRoot\\$pathFile\"," . > length("$localRoot\\$pathFile") . > "\n"; > } > } > foreach my $pathSubdir (@pathSubdirs) { > $pathDepth++; > procDir("$localRoot\\$pathSubdir"); > $pathDepth--; > } > } > ------------------------------>8 Cut 8<------------------------------ > > Scott > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Friedman HighWire Press, Stanford Southwest Phone: 480-456-0880 Tempe, Arizona FAX: 270-721-8034 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at illogics.org Mon Nov 10 22:15:01 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Dynamic code loads under POE. Message-ID: <20031111041501.GK2580@illogics.org> Reminds me of the trick where you undef a module from %INC to force it to be reloaded next time it is use'd. I've done atleast one mod_perl site where it walked through the main:: namespace, looked for other namespaces, did a -m on the computed possible filenames for the module with the help of Config.pm, and should it find something newer than the one loaded, it would undef it from %INC and eval "use" it, and timestamp it. I too feel that Legos greatly influenced my programming style and mental model. -scott On 0, Bill Nash wrote: > > > In actual Perl related news, rcaputo posted my long overdue write up on > dynamic code reloading within live POE processes: > > http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Cookbook/Dynamic_Loading > > Discuss. =) > > - billn > > From TomA at fh.org Tue Nov 11 09:01:32 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: OT: Happy Veteran's Day Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE01363827@mail.int.fh.org> Thank A Veteran For Your Freedom By J. L. Sager It was a veteran, not a reporter, Who guaranteed freedom of the press. It was a veteran, not a poet, Who guaranteed freedom of speech. It was a veteran, not a campus organizer, Who guaranteed freedom to demonstrate. It was a veteran, not a minister, Who guaranteed freedom to worship. It was a veteran, not a salesman, Who guaranteed freedom to own property. It was a veteran, not a travel agent, Who guaranteed freedom to travel. It was a veteran, not a politician, Who guaranteed freedom to vote. It is a veteran who salutes the Flag, Risks it all for the Flag, And who is buried beneath the Flag. Tom Achtenberg SQL Programmer/Report Writer Food for the Hungry US Information Technologies (480)609-7750 From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Tue Nov 11 09:53:24 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 In-Reply-To: <80313642-13F5-11D8-AB13-000A956CAA2C@highwire.stanford.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Michael Friedman > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:17 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Best Methods on Win32 > > Scott T, > > [...snip...] > > There. Now you read the dir once and test each file once (with stat > and the special '_' filemetadatahandle). Have I optimized it into > unreadability yet? > Nope. Makes perfect sense and sounds like it'll run a bit faster. Thanks for the input. Scott From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Tue Nov 11 09:54:49 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Dynamic code loads under POE. In-Reply-To: <20031111041501.GK2580@illogics.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Scott Walters > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:15 PM > To: Bill Nash > Cc: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Dynamic code loads under POE. > > I too feel that Legos greatly influenced my programming style > and mental model. > Nice to know I'm not alone on this. :) Scott T. From intertwingled at qwest.net Tue Nov 11 13:36:54 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: OT: Happy Veteran's Day In-Reply-To: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE01363827@mail.int.fh.org> References: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE01363827@mail.int.fh.org> Message-ID: <3FB13A56.9000201@qwest.net> /me is a vet. Do you have your Veteran's License Plate? =) Anthony Nemmer USAF Veteran Tom Achtenberg wrote: >Thank A Veteran For Your Freedom >By J. L. Sager >It was a veteran, not a reporter, >Who guaranteed freedom of the press. >It was a veteran, not a poet, >Who guaranteed freedom of speech. >It was a veteran, not a campus organizer, >Who guaranteed freedom to demonstrate. >It was a veteran, not a minister, >Who guaranteed freedom to worship. >It was a veteran, not a salesman, >Who guaranteed freedom to own property. >It was a veteran, not a travel agent, >Who guaranteed freedom to travel. >It was a veteran, not a politician, >Who guaranteed freedom to vote. >It is a veteran who salutes the Flag, >Risks it all for the Flag, >And who is buried beneath the Flag. > > >Tom Achtenberg > >SQL Programmer/Report Writer >Food for the Hungry US >Information Technologies >(480)609-7750 > > > > > From TomA at fh.org Tue Nov 11 13:45:23 2003 From: TomA at fh.org (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: OT: Happy Veteran's Day Message-ID: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE0136382E@mail.int.fh.org> I plan to get mine in January when I renew. Tom USAF Veteran -----Original Message----- From: intertwingled [mailto:intertwingled@qwest.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:37 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: OT: Happy Veteran's Day /me is a vet. Do you have your Veteran's License Plate? =) Anthony Nemmer USAF Veteran Tom Achtenberg wrote: >Thank A Veteran For Your Freedom >By J. L. Sager >It was a veteran, not a reporter, >Who guaranteed freedom of the press. >It was a veteran, not a poet, >Who guaranteed freedom of speech. >It was a veteran, not a campus organizer, >Who guaranteed freedom to demonstrate. >It was a veteran, not a minister, >Who guaranteed freedom to worship. >It was a veteran, not a salesman, >Who guaranteed freedom to own property. >It was a veteran, not a travel agent, >Who guaranteed freedom to travel. >It was a veteran, not a politician, >Who guaranteed freedom to vote. >It is a veteran who salutes the Flag, >Risks it all for the Flag, >And who is buried beneath the Flag. > > >Tom Achtenberg > >SQL Programmer/Report Writer >Food for the Hungry US >Information Technologies >(480)609-7750 > > > > > From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Tue Nov 11 14:47:04 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: OT: Happy Veteran's Day In-Reply-To: <4A8DFDA6B395D411A11B00508BEE23FE0136382E@mail.int.fh.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Tom Achtenberg > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:45 PM > To: 'phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org' > Subject: RE: Phoenix.pm: OT: Happy Veteran's Day > > I plan to get mine in January when I renew. > > Tom > USAF Veteran > > -----Original Message----- > From: intertwingled [mailto:intertwingled@qwest.net] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:37 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: OT: Happy Veteran's Day > > > /me is a vet. Do you have your Veteran's License Plate? =) > > Anthony Nemmer > USAF Veteran > I called my father (US Army) during lunch to thank him for his service. While I am not the "military kind," I have the utmost respect and admiration for those individuals who have sacrificed of themselves to serve our country. I, personally, will forever be indebted to each and every person who has served our military. And I will thank you to my dying day for protecting the freedoms that I enjoy -- and that I never have, and never will, take for granted. All "sappiness" aside, thank you for serving and protecting the things that I and my family hold dear. Scott From doug at phoenixinternet.com Thu Nov 13 19:53:34 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB4359E.1000905@phoenixinternet.com> Scott Thompson wrote: >Ummm... did I join this group at a weird time? You know, multiple PM's >"battling" for members? ;) > > Hi, this is Doug, leader of Phoenix.pm. I guess you could say this is a weird time. I've been up to my ears in alligators at work, so I've missed most of the fun. From where I stand, there is no spoon, I mean, battle. :) People can go to whichever group they choose. I'd rather see people go to the Tempe group than not be involved at all. >Whatever the case, I wanted to introduce myself. While I left my "Hello! My >Name Is" tag at home, I'll tell you that people usually call me Scott. When >they're not PO'd at me. > >I've been in Web Development for the past 8 years, and have been singing the >praises of Perl for CGI (among other uses...) development for years. Heck, >I'll even admit in public that I *like* PerlScript under IIS/ASP. > >I'll duck after I'm done typing. :) > >I recently moved to Arizona, and it's about time I jumped first into >the local user groups/community. I'm currently working for a local IT >company doing *gasp* sales. It's a startup in *desperate* need of a good >developer (like myself...) and as soon as the sales staff is built up, I get >to get back behind a keyboard and do what I love -- pound those keys like a >rabid monkey and make their systems get up and dance. > >So, introductions aside, I'll be crouching over here in the corner avoiding >over-ripe fruit chunked at my melon for the IIS/ASP comment earlier. > > >Scott Thompson >I'll Be Here All Week, Be Sure To Tip Your Waitresses > > Welcome to Phoenix! I look forward to seeing you at a meeting sometime. Who knows, you might even be able to do some networking for your startup. :) From doug at phoenixinternet.com Thu Nov 13 20:09:20 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB43950.5030002@phoenixinternet.com> Bill Nash wrote: >The point I'm trying to make, however backhanded, is that your reasons for >forming another group, for all intents and purposes, suck. It's purely >typical of the behavior that encourages folks like me to avoid you, ala >knee-jerk reactionism and poorly thought out behavior. > > You have a point here. >However much the curmudgeon I may seem throughout this exchange, forming a >second local PM group is a division of resources that will simply fracture >the local community and spread resources even thinner, as you attempt to >build a community base at the expense of another. If it's simply forming >another group that reduces the odds of folks (who take issue with your >personal characteristics) running into you, that's addressing the >*symptom* and not the *problem*. > > One thing I've been concerned about since I started this group was that people wouldn't participate because of travel distances. If having a Tempe group makes encourages people to participate, I'm all for that. That being said, There was another group started a while ago, which didn't work out for some reason. Opinions? Hey all you lurkers out there! Is travel distance what keeps you from meetings? Would you participate if there was a meeting closer to you? So, I guess what I'm saying is that having multiple groups is a division of resources only if it divides the current group without bringing in new people. IMHO. YMMV. IANAL. :) >There are days I really hate having to play the bad guy, and say the >things people may not want to hear, but they need to be said, and should >be said before any damage is incurred. > > From billn at billn.net Thu Nov 13 20:21:42 2003 From: billn at billn.net (Bill Nash) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <3FB43950.5030002@phoenixinternet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Douglas E. Miles wrote: > One thing I've been concerned about since I started this group was that > people wouldn't participate because of travel distances. If having a > Tempe group makes encourages people to participate, I'm all for that. > That being said, There was another group started a while ago, which > didn't work out for some reason. Opinions? Hey all you lurkers out > there! Is travel distance what keeps you from meetings? Would you > participate if there was a meeting closer to you? > > So, I guess what I'm saying is that having multiple groups is a division > of resources only if it divides the current group without bringing in > new people. IMHO. YMMV. IANAL. :) > On this point, it's easy enough to borrow wisdom from the PLUG guys, and simply move the meeting around from time to time. Bowne is pretty central to the *entire* Valley, but if you live in AJ, Tolleson, or Happy Valley, it's still quite the drive. I'm in West Mesa/Tempe myself, so yes, a Tempe.pm would benefit me. All things considered, the occasional east side Phoenix.pm meeting would be of far more interest to me. - billn From doug at phoenixinternet.com Thu Nov 13 20:36:52 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB43FC4.3070504@phoenixinternet.com> Scott Thompson wrote: >All joking aside, the reason I asked if I was coming into a politically >volatile situation was to know -- before I show up -- who's pissed at who. > > I'm not pissed at anyone. At least no-one in this group. At least no-one in this group who's still alive. Did I say that out loud? :) >I hate to boil it down to that, but hey -- politics among passionate persons >can make long-time enemies if you talk to the wrong person. I don't wanna >be burning any bridges as I'm crossing them. At the same time, far be it >from me to avoid Person A because Person B says I should. I'd just hate to >think that Person B would start avoiding me because I said "Hi" to Person A. > > I can see how this looks to someone new, but honestly this group is *the* most friendly I've ever seen. I can count the number of times something like this has happened on one hand in the 6 years (I just looked it up and I can't believe it!) this group has been around. >*sigh* Maybe I should lurk for a while, eh? :) > > Please don't. We have enough lurkers already. :) From doug at phoenixinternet.com Thu Nov 13 20:38:47 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB44037.5050007@phoenixinternet.com> Scott Thompson wrote: >All joking aside, the reason I asked if I was coming into a politically >volatile situation was to know -- before I show up -- who's pissed at who. > > I'm not pissed at anyone. At least no-one in this group. At least no-one in this group who's still alive. Did I say that out loud? :) >I hate to boil it down to that, but hey -- politics among passionate persons >can make long-time enemies if you talk to the wrong person. I don't wanna >be burning any bridges as I'm crossing them. At the same time, far be it >from me to avoid Person A because Person B says I should. I'd just hate to >think that Person B would start avoiding me because I said "Hi" to Person A. > > I can see how this looks to someone new, but honestly this group is *the* most friendly I've ever seen. I can count the number of times something like this has happened on one hand in the 6 years (I just looked it up and I can't believe it!) this group has been around. >*sigh* Maybe I should lurk for a while, eh? :) > > Please don't. We have enough lurkers already. :) From doug at phoenixinternet.com Thu Nov 13 20:42:43 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <20031110174706.GB29695@illogics.org> References: <20031110174706.GB29695@illogics.org> Message-ID: <3FB44123.5040003@phoenixinternet.com> Scott Walters wrote: > Hi other Scott, > > No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) > > On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more common. > Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because > something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to > mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. Hey, what's up with that? I'm always the last to know. What happened to Pablo? I don't remember McAllester. (No offense if you're out there. I just have a bad memory.) Reply off list if you'd rather. > We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands > to yourself when asked to do. > From doug at phoenixinternet.com Thu Nov 13 21:22:27 2003 From: doug at phoenixinternet.com (Douglas E. Miles) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Of Flamewars and Godwin Message-ID: <3FB44A73.5050209@phoenixinternet.com> Sorry about this everyone. I've been out of the loop (and off list) for a while now. Normally I don't get involved with these things, because they are short lived. I'm making an exception in this case because a new member has expressed concern. It looks like this has wound down now, but just to be sure: Hitler! I lose. (Yes I know I'm abusing Godwin's Law here, but cut me some slack. :) ) To sum up: Bill and Tony don't like each other. Tony is starting a new group. I wish him all success in this. Bill, I hope you will consider attending since Tony has only attended a handfull of times in the past. I hope we don't need to discuss this on list anymore. Don't make me get out the +5 Flaming Email of Rebuke! :) From tom at squawpeak.us Thu Nov 13 21:53:37 2003 From: tom at squawpeak.us (Tom Achtenberg) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Valley PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: PLUG has three distinct meetings every month, they don't just move it around. They have the East side meeting in Mesa, the central one in Tempe and the West side one in Glendale. West side is the 4th Tuesday, East side is the 2nd Thursday etc. Living in the Happy Valley area, a West and/or North group would certainly make it more likely for me to attend. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Nash [mailto:billn@billn.net] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:22 PM To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Douglas E. Miles wrote: > One thing I've been concerned about since I started this group was that > people wouldn't participate because of travel distances. If having a > Tempe group makes encourages people to participate, I'm all for that. > That being said, There was another group started a while ago, which > didn't work out for some reason. Opinions? Hey all you lurkers out > there! Is travel distance what keeps you from meetings? Would you > participate if there was a meeting closer to you? > > So, I guess what I'm saying is that having multiple groups is a division > of resources only if it divides the current group without bringing in > new people. IMHO. YMMV. IANAL. :) > On this point, it's easy enough to borrow wisdom from the PLUG guys, and simply move the meeting around from time to time. Bowne is pretty central to the *entire* Valley, but if you live in AJ, Tolleson, or Happy Valley, it's still quite the drive. I'm in West Mesa/Tempe myself, so yes, a Tempe.pm would benefit me. All things considered, the occasional east side Phoenix.pm meeting would be of far more interest to me. - billn --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/2003 From scott at illogics.org Thu Nov 13 23:41:22 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <20031114054122.GV2580@illogics.org> Hey. Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) Re: Pablo and McAllester, McAllester and Goldfrab ran and run Contact Designs, whom I worked for quite a while. Before I signed on there, they did a deal with Pablo - I don't know the details - for "dosomething.org". I'm told it i a school related site for getting kids involved (in something, I don't know what, presumably not drugs and violence). They did it in mod_perl, as their first mod_perl site (having a persistant mod_perl fetish lasting through my stay there) and they, well, botched it. They asked for a lot of money and didn't deliver. Pablo and McAllester were mutually afraid of what the other would think of them, or something like that, the way I hear it. I don't think it was bad blood, just discomfort. Pablo was a nice guy. I miss seeing him around. McAllester finally gave up on development after running the guantlet of frustrations associated with it and as far as I know they just sell already written software, application service provider style. They found another cart that was less powerful and less flexible than mine but had a nice admin for setting up new stores and just tell clients now days that they can't have the things they want rather than quoting them a price and trying to deliver. There is something to be said for that, IMHO. Most attempts to write software are misguided, unless the only purpose is education. Re: moving the meetings around the valley, we were talking about doing that at one point but, uh, never quite got around to it. -scott On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: > > Scott Walters wrote: > > Hi other Scott, > > > > No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) > > > > On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more common. > > Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because > > something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to > > mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. > > Hey, what's up with that? I'm always the last to know. What happened > to Pablo? I don't remember McAllester. (No offense if you're out > there. I just have a bad memory.) Reply off list if you'd rather. > > > We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands > > to yourself when asked to do. > > > > > From intertwingled at qwest.net Fri Nov 14 07:20:48 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Of Flamewars and Godwin In-Reply-To: <3FB44A73.5050209@phoenixinternet.com> References: <3FB44A73.5050209@phoenixinternet.com> Message-ID: <3FB4D6B0.80007@qwest.net> Certainly livened things up a bit, didn't it? =) Tony Douglas E. Miles wrote: > Sorry about this everyone. I've been out of the loop (and off list) > for a while now. Normally I don't get involved with these things, > because they are short lived. I'm making an exception in this case > because a new member has expressed concern. It looks like this has > wound down now, but just to be sure: > > Hitler! I lose. (Yes I know I'm abusing Godwin's Law here, but cut > me some slack. :) ) > > To sum up: Bill and Tony don't like each other. Tony is starting a > new group. I wish him all success in this. Bill, I hope you will > consider attending since Tony has only attended a handfull of times in > the past. > > I hope we don't need to discuss this on list anymore. > > Don't make me get out the +5 Flaming Email of Rebuke! :) > > > From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Fri Nov 14 08:53:29 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <3FB4359E.1000905@phoenixinternet.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Douglas E. Miles > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 6:54 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Cc: Douglas E. Miles > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > Hi, this is Doug, leader of Phoenix.pm. > Hiya Doug. Thanks for saving me the trouble of monotonally asking someone to take me to you. ;) > > > >Scott Thompson > >I'll Be Here All Week, Be Sure To Tip Your Waitresses > > > > Welcome to Phoenix! I look forward to seeing you at a meeting > sometime. Who knows, you might even be able to do some networking > for your startup. :) > Thanks for the welcome. And screw the startup -- they're a bunch of Misguided Fools (tm). And, no... I'm not working there anymore. Off to bigger and better things (ie -- I'm hirable *wink*... ). Oh, and, be sure to try the veal. Scott --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/2003 From scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com Fri Nov 14 08:54:29 2003 From: scottcodes at thepurplehaze.com (Scott Thompson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <3FB43FC4.3070504@phoenixinternet.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-phoenix-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Douglas E. Miles > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:37 PM > To: phoenix-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > >*sigh* Maybe I should lurk for a while, eh? :) > > > > > Please don't. We have enough lurkers already. :) > Don't worry -- it was a rhetorical threat (?!). Scott --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/2003 From cakrum at cox.net Sat Nov 15 09:40:51 2003 From: cakrum at cox.net (Chris Krum) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. References: <20031114054122.GV2580@illogics.org> Message-ID: <005201c3ab8e$d9df4660$200a0344@ph.cox.net> >Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen >once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing >personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting >around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) Hey, what's wrong with a "bunch of middle aged white guys sitting around a conferance table"? I rather enjoyed my one visit. (Pardon me while I scratch my Fuzzy Logic.) My problem is that I usually don't catch up with my e-mail until the weekend so I finally hear about the Thursday meeting on the Saturday after it's over. (Plus, during the summer I was riding the bus because my beat up old bug doesn't have air conditioning.) Would a virtual meeting of some kind work? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Walters" To: "Douglas E. Miles" Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > Hey. > > Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen > once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing > personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting > around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) > > Re: Pablo and McAllester, McAllester and Goldfrab ran and > run Contact Designs, whom I worked for quite a while. Before > I signed on there, they did a deal with Pablo - I don't know > the details - for "dosomething.org". I'm told it i a school > related site for getting kids involved (in something, I > don't know what, presumably not drugs and violence). They > did it in mod_perl, as their first mod_perl site (having > a persistant mod_perl fetish lasting through my stay there) > and they, well, botched it. They asked for a lot of money > and didn't deliver. Pablo and McAllester were mutually > afraid of what the other would think of them, or something > like that, the way I hear it. I don't think it was bad blood, > just discomfort. > > Pablo was a nice guy. I miss seeing him around. McAllester > finally gave up on development after running the guantlet > of frustrations associated with it and as far as I know > they just sell already written software, application > service provider style. They found another cart that > was less powerful and less flexible than mine but had a > nice admin for setting up new stores and just tell clients > now days that they can't have the things they want rather > than quoting them a price and trying to deliver. There is > something to be said for that, IMHO. Most attempts to write > software are misguided, unless the only purpose is education. > > Re: moving the meetings around the valley, we were talking > about doing that at one point but, uh, never quite got around to it. > > -scott > > On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: > > > > Scott Walters wrote: > > > Hi other Scott, > > > > > > No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) > > > > > > On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more common. > > > Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because > > > something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to > > > mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. > > > > Hey, what's up with that? I'm always the last to know. What happened > > to Pablo? I don't remember McAllester. (No offense if you're out > > there. I just have a bad memory.) Reply off list if you'd rather. > > > > > We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands > > > to yourself when asked to do. > > > > > > > > > From scott at illogics.org Sat Nov 15 13:26:24 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. Message-ID: <20031115192623.GO24377@illogics.org> Hi Chris, OOOooh, I love Volkswagens bugs. My motorcycle doesn't have air conditioning either, but atleast I get a good breeze as long as I don't get stuck in downtown rush hour traffic (in which case it is pretty miserable). They tried an IRC meeting once. People drifted in and out and when they came in, they went idle. I've been playing with video taping presentations and making audio recordings. The video capture software and hardwarae is Windows only, and I've sunk about a week of my life into trying to make the stuff works. It simply refuses for any clip over 5 minutes. It takes about an hour of nursing to get 5 minutes captured. That's on hold until I get something that works under Unix. I did capture the audio from the second Fuzzy Logic presentation and put it up as mp3, though, and announced that to the list. Not many takers. 2 or 3 if memory serves. I think online virtual meetings/presetnations have some potential but I haven't found the sweet spot yet, or atleast haven't attained it. I'm thinking video is the way to go, with matching HTML slideshow. -scott On 0, Chris Krum wrote: > > >Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen > >once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing > >personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting > >around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) > > Hey, what's wrong with a "bunch of middle aged white guys sitting > around a conferance table"? I rather enjoyed my one visit. (Pardon me while > I scratch my Fuzzy Logic.) My problem is that I usually don't catch up with > my e-mail until the weekend so I finally hear about the Thursday meeting on > the Saturday after it's over. (Plus, during the summer I was riding the bus > because my beat up old bug doesn't have air conditioning.) > > Would a virtual meeting of some kind work? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Walters" > To: "Douglas E. Miles" > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:41 PM > Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > > > Hey. > > > > Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen > > once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing > > personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting > > around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) > > > > Re: Pablo and McAllester, McAllester and Goldfrab ran and > > run Contact Designs, whom I worked for quite a while. Before > > I signed on there, they did a deal with Pablo - I don't know > > the details - for "dosomething.org". I'm told it i a school > > related site for getting kids involved (in something, I > > don't know what, presumably not drugs and violence). They > > did it in mod_perl, as their first mod_perl site (having > > a persistant mod_perl fetish lasting through my stay there) > > and they, well, botched it. They asked for a lot of money > > and didn't deliver. Pablo and McAllester were mutually > > afraid of what the other would think of them, or something > > like that, the way I hear it. I don't think it was bad blood, > > just discomfort. > > > > Pablo was a nice guy. I miss seeing him around. McAllester > > finally gave up on development after running the guantlet > > of frustrations associated with it and as far as I know > > they just sell already written software, application > > service provider style. They found another cart that > > was less powerful and less flexible than mine but had a > > nice admin for setting up new stores and just tell clients > > now days that they can't have the things they want rather > > than quoting them a price and trying to deliver. There is > > something to be said for that, IMHO. Most attempts to write > > software are misguided, unless the only purpose is education. > > > > Re: moving the meetings around the valley, we were talking > > about doing that at one point but, uh, never quite got around to it. > > > > -scott > > > > On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: > > > > > > Scott Walters wrote: > > > > Hi other Scott, > > > > > > > > No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) > > > > > > > > On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more > common. > > > > Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because > > > > something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to > > > > mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. > > > > > > Hey, what's up with that? I'm always the last to know. What happened > > > to Pablo? I don't remember McAllester. (No offense if you're out > > > there. I just have a bad memory.) Reply off list if you'd rather. > > > > > > > We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands > > > > to yourself when asked to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From intertwingled at qwest.net Sat Nov 15 13:37:53 2003 From: intertwingled at qwest.net (intertwingled) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. In-Reply-To: <005201c3ab8e$d9df4660$200a0344@ph.cox.net> References: <20031114054122.GV2580@illogics.org> <005201c3ab8e$d9df4660$200a0344@ph.cox.net> Message-ID: <3FB68091.2050408@qwest.net> We've tried a meeting on internet relay chat. Worked out rather well, from what I heard: Although I "attended" my client was idle because I had to drive my mom to urgent care that afternoon. Tony Chris Krum wrote: >>Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen >>once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing >>personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting >>around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) >> >> > >Hey, what's wrong with a "bunch of middle aged white guys sitting >around a conferance table"? I rather enjoyed my one visit. (Pardon me while >I scratch my Fuzzy Logic.) My problem is that I usually don't catch up with >my e-mail until the weekend so I finally hear about the Thursday meeting on >the Saturday after it's over. (Plus, during the summer I was riding the bus >because my beat up old bug doesn't have air conditioning.) > >Would a virtual meeting of some kind work? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott Walters" >To: "Douglas E. Miles" >Cc: >Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:41 PM >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > > > >>Hey. >> >>Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen >>once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing >>personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting >>around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) >> >>Re: Pablo and McAllester, McAllester and Goldfrab ran and >>run Contact Designs, whom I worked for quite a while. Before >>I signed on there, they did a deal with Pablo - I don't know >>the details - for "dosomething.org". I'm told it i a school >>related site for getting kids involved (in something, I >>don't know what, presumably not drugs and violence). They >>did it in mod_perl, as their first mod_perl site (having >>a persistant mod_perl fetish lasting through my stay there) >>and they, well, botched it. They asked for a lot of money >>and didn't deliver. Pablo and McAllester were mutually >>afraid of what the other would think of them, or something >>like that, the way I hear it. I don't think it was bad blood, >>just discomfort. >> >>Pablo was a nice guy. I miss seeing him around. McAllester >>finally gave up on development after running the guantlet >>of frustrations associated with it and as far as I know >>they just sell already written software, application >>service provider style. They found another cart that >>was less powerful and less flexible than mine but had a >>nice admin for setting up new stores and just tell clients >>now days that they can't have the things they want rather >>than quoting them a price and trying to deliver. There is >>something to be said for that, IMHO. Most attempts to write >>software are misguided, unless the only purpose is education. >> >>Re: moving the meetings around the valley, we were talking >>about doing that at one point but, uh, never quite got around to it. >> >>-scott >> >>On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: >> >> >>>Scott Walters wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hi other Scott, >>>> >>>>No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) >>>> >>>>On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more >>>> >>>> >common. > > >>>>Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because >>>>something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to >>>>mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. >>>> >>>> >>>Hey, what's up with that? I'm always the last to know. What happened >>>to Pablo? I don't remember McAllester. (No offense if you're out >>>there. I just have a bad memory.) Reply off list if you'd rather. >>> >>> >>> >>>>We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands >>>>to yourself when asked to do. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > From tran_fors at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 01:58:03 2003 From: tran_fors at yahoo.com (Tran Forsythe) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. References: <20031114054122.GV2580@illogics.org> <005201c3ab8e$d9df4660$200a0344@ph.cox.net> <3FB68091.2050408@qwest.net> Message-ID: <001501c3ac17$5d62fee0$0101a8c0@dario> Hmm.. unoficially speaking, where I work we do a simultaneous conference call and Internet-based slideshow (well, it's more complicated than that, but you get the idea). 'Course, if that means local long-distance for people in the outskirts, that's not such a hot idea I suppose. Anyone know if they've instituted that here yet? -Kurt ----- Original Message ----- From: "intertwingled" To: Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > We've tried a meeting on internet relay chat. Worked out rather well, > from what I heard: Although I "attended" my client was idle because I > had to drive my mom to urgent care that afternoon. > > Tony > > Chris Krum wrote: > > >>Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen > >>once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing > >>personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting > >>around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) > >> > >> > > > >Hey, what's wrong with a "bunch of middle aged white guys sitting > >around a conferance table"? I rather enjoyed my one visit. (Pardon me while > >I scratch my Fuzzy Logic.) My problem is that I usually don't catch up with > >my e-mail until the weekend so I finally hear about the Thursday meeting on > >the Saturday after it's over. (Plus, during the summer I was riding the bus > >because my beat up old bug doesn't have air conditioning.) > > > >Would a virtual meeting of some kind work? > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Scott Walters" > >To: "Douglas E. Miles" > >Cc: > >Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:41 PM > >Subject: Re: Phoenix.pm: Tempe/East Vally PerlMongers Approved. > > > > > > > > > >>Hey. > >> > >>Re: people not returning, there are a lot of people we've seen > >>once that are probably lurking on the list. I'm sure it is nothing > >>personal, just that a bunch of middle aged white guys sitting > >>around a conferance table ain't their idea of a good time =) > >> > >>Re: Pablo and McAllester, McAllester and Goldfrab ran and > >>run Contact Designs, whom I worked for quite a while. Before > >>I signed on there, they did a deal with Pablo - I don't know > >>the details - for "dosomething.org". I'm told it i a school > >>related site for getting kids involved (in something, I > >>don't know what, presumably not drugs and violence). They > >>did it in mod_perl, as their first mod_perl site (having > >>a persistant mod_perl fetish lasting through my stay there) > >>and they, well, botched it. They asked for a lot of money > >>and didn't deliver. Pablo and McAllester were mutually > >>afraid of what the other would think of them, or something > >>like that, the way I hear it. I don't think it was bad blood, > >>just discomfort. > >> > >>Pablo was a nice guy. I miss seeing him around. McAllester > >>finally gave up on development after running the guantlet > >>of frustrations associated with it and as far as I know > >>they just sell already written software, application > >>service provider style. They found another cart that > >>was less powerful and less flexible than mine but had a > >>nice admin for setting up new stores and just tell clients > >>now days that they can't have the things they want rather > >>than quoting them a price and trying to deliver. There is > >>something to be said for that, IMHO. Most attempts to write > >>software are misguided, unless the only purpose is education. > >> > >>Re: moving the meetings around the valley, we were talking > >>about doing that at one point but, uh, never quite got around to it. > >> > >>-scott > >> > >>On 0, "Douglas E. Miles" wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Scott Walters wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Hi other Scott, > >>>> > >>>>No, nothing like that. Phoenix PM is nothing worth fighting over ;) > >>>> > >>>>On the other hand, people have failed to return. That's far more > >>>> > >>>> > >common. > > > > > >>>>Not because they were mad at someone, as far as I know, but because > >>>>something uncomfortable happened. Mcallester and Pablo come to > >>>>mind. But even then, that's fairly rare. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Hey, what's up with that? I'm always the last to know. What happened > >>>to Pablo? I don't remember McAllester. (No offense if you're out > >>>there. I just have a bad memory.) Reply off list if you'd rather. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>We're all pretty tolerent. All you have to do is keep your hands > >>>>to yourself when asked to do. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > From scott at illogics.org Fri Nov 28 21:38:38 2003 From: scott at illogics.org (Scott Walters) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:17:09 2004 Subject: Phoenix.pm: bayesian categories - finding interesting blogs, etc Message-ID: <20031129033837.GO1904@illogics.org> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/11/19/udell.html Interesting article =) -scott