From enobacon at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 11:50:43 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 11:50:43 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] a list of working and non-working Rakudo features Message-ID: <200901041150.43482.enobacon@gmail.com> This looks like a useful guide for avoiding frustration if you want to start playing with rakudo. http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?rakudo_feature_status --Eric -- Consumers want choice, consumers want openness. --Rob Glaser --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From enobacon at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 09:59:13 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:59:13 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] meeting next Wed - How a Virtual Machine Works Message-ID: <200901050959.13497.enobacon@gmail.com> Wed. January 14th, 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. chromatic presents: How a Virtual Machine Works Perl 6, Perl 5, Python, Ruby, Lua, JavaScript, Java, C#, and many other languages use virtual machines as their execution environments. Instead of compiling directly to machine code, they rely on the presence of an ideal machine built specifically for the language ? porting the language to a new architecture often means only porting that virtual machine. Does that sound complicated? It's not. Some of the details of very efficient and effective virtual machines are, but the general ideas are simple. This talk explains the important components of a virtual machine and how they fit together. Examples will come from the world of Perl 5, Parrot, and Perl 6, but the concepts apply to many languages and VMs. You may never need to hack the guts of your favorite language, but understanding how they work can help you become a better programmer. As always, the meeting will be followed by social hour at the LuckyLab. -- http://pdx.pm.org From raanders at acm.org Tue Jan 6 12:06:07 2009 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:06:07 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs Message-ID: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> I'm working on building a _very_ simple GUI application. So far all the toolkits/helpers for Perl are a little long in the tooth. Well 2002, 2003 and older. I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything newer/better? I have coded a couple of times using Perl/Tk but find it is a little too low level for the simple stuff I do. Any suggestions? Thanks, Rod -- From kellert at ohsu.edu Tue Jan 6 12:26:54 2009 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:26:54 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> Message-ID: If you are on an Apple OS X system. A really easy "GUI" can be made using the Mac::AppleScript module. There is a more full featured GUI module for OS X, but it is not on CPAN. It is called Pashua.pm and is pretty cool. cheers, Tom kellert @ ohsu.edu 503-494-2442 On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:06 PM, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > I'm working on building a _very_ simple GUI application. So far all > the toolkits/helpers for Perl are a little long in the tooth. Well > 2002, 2003 and older. > > I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything > newer/better? > > I have coded a couple of times using Perl/Tk but find it is a little > too low level for the simple stuff I do. > > Any suggestions? > > > Thanks, > Rod > -- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From raanders at acm.org Tue Jan 6 12:33:28 2009 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:33:28 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> Message-ID: <4963C018.80007@acm.org> Thomas Keller wrote: > If you are on an Apple OS X system. A really easy "GUI" can be made > using the Mac::AppleScript module. > There is a more full featured GUI module for OS X, but it is not on > CPAN. It is called Pashua.pm and is pretty cool. Thanks Thomas. But ... I mostly deal with and work on Linux, UNIX, and Windows systems. Rod -- > > cheers, > > Tom > kellert @ ohsu.edu > 503-494-2442 > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:06 PM, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > >> I'm working on building a _very_ simple GUI application. So far all >> the toolkits/helpers for Perl are a little long in the tooth. Well >> 2002, 2003 and older. >> >> I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything >> newer/better? >> >> I have coded a couple of times using Perl/Tk but find it is a little >> too low level for the simple stuff I do. >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Rod >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Pdx-pm-list mailing list >> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From hdp.perl.pm.pdx at weftsoar.net Tue Jan 6 12:34:15 2009 From: hdp.perl.pm.pdx at weftsoar.net (Hans Dieter Pearcey) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:34:15 -0500 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <4963C018.80007@acm.org> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> <4963C018.80007@acm.org> Message-ID: <20090106203415.GO31656@glaive.weftsoar.net> On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:33:28PM -0800, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > Thomas Keller wrote: >> If you are on an Apple OS X system. A really easy "GUI" can be made >> using the Mac::AppleScript module. >> There is a more full featured GUI module for OS X, but it is not on >> CPAN. It is called Pashua.pm and is pretty cool. > > Thanks Thomas. But ... I mostly deal with and work on Linux, UNIX, and > Windows systems. I don't do any GUI stuff myself, but I mostly hear about Wx and Gtk these days, probably in that order. hdp. From enobacon at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 12:49:31 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:49:31 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> Message-ID: <200901061249.31409.enobacon@gmail.com> # from Roderick A. Anderson # on Tuesday 06 January 2009 12:06: >I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything >newer/better? I hear some guy was developing something about a TUIT. --Eric -- "But as to modern architecture, let us drop it and let us take modernistic out and shoot it at sunrise." --F.L. Wright --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From raanders at acm.org Tue Jan 6 12:52:25 2009 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:52:25 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <20090106203415.GO31656@glaive.weftsoar.net> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> <4963C018.80007@acm.org> <20090106203415.GO31656@glaive.weftsoar.net> Message-ID: <4963C489.2090801@acm.org> Hans Dieter Pearcey wrote: > On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:33:28PM -0800, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: >> Thomas Keller wrote: >>> If you are on an Apple OS X system. A really easy "GUI" can be made >>> using the Mac::AppleScript module. >>> There is a more full featured GUI module for OS X, but it is not on >>> CPAN. It is called Pashua.pm and is pretty cool. >> Thanks Thomas. But ... I mostly deal with and work on Linux, UNIX, and >> Windows systems. > > I don't do any GUI stuff myself, but I mostly hear about Wx and Gtk these days, > probably in that order. Yeah, Glade-Perl uses Perl-Gtk but builds the Perl code from the files created by Glade. Lets my inner-wimp get loose and do it "Gooey" instead of in vim. Thanks, Rod -- > > hdp. > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From raanders at acm.org Tue Jan 6 13:02:20 2009 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:02:20 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <200901061249.31409.enobacon@gmail.com> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> <200901061249.31409.enobacon@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4963C6DC.7070908@acm.org> Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Roderick A. Anderson > # on Tuesday 06 January 2009 12:06: > >> I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything >> newer/better? > > I hear some guy was developing something about a TUIT. Yeah me too! But I couldn't find anything except a promise to do a presentation until a little snow got in the way. :-) And I do mean little. I have about 3 feet in my yard and more falling. Any suggestions where I could learn more about FreeTUIT without getting the dog sled out and making a 450 mile trek? :-) Rod -- > > --Eric From kellert at ohsu.edu Tue Jan 6 13:27:51 2009 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:27:51 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <4963C6DC.7070908@acm.org> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> <200901061249.31409.enobacon@gmail.com> <4963C6DC.7070908@acm.org> Message-ID: This may be a bit too far outa the box, but I also use FilemakerPro to run perlscripts. It is an incredibly easy, integrated database/dbm/gui system with really nice development tools. It can run scripts easily. It's not open source, but it is pretty inexpensive. best wishes, Tom kellert @ ohsu.edu 503-494-2442 On Jan 6, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > Eric Wilhelm wrote: >> # from Roderick A. Anderson >> # on Tuesday 06 January 2009 12:06: >>> I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything >>> newer/better? >> I hear some guy was developing something about a TUIT. > > Yeah me too! But I couldn't find anything except a promise to do a > presentation until a little snow got in the way. :-) And I do mean > little. I have about 3 feet in my yard and more falling. > > Any suggestions where I could learn more about FreeTUIT without > getting the dog sled out and making a 450 mile trek? :-) > > > Rod > -- >> --Eric > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From enobacon at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 13:35:45 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:35:45 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <4963C6DC.7070908@acm.org> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> <200901061249.31409.enobacon@gmail.com> <4963C6DC.7070908@acm.org> Message-ID: <200901061335.45638.enobacon@gmail.com> # from Roderick A. Anderson # on Tuesday 06 January 2009 13:02: >Yeah me too! ?But I couldn't find anything except a promise to do a >presentation until a little snow got in the way. ?:-) And I do mean >little. ?I have about 3 feet in my yard and more falling. Yes. Well, I was going to go into the snow business, but then all of my product melted. So, presently I'm busy selling off all of my snow shipping trucks and packaging equipment because apparently free software pays better. But there will be some slides or something soon. Meanwhile, you have to know the extremely well-kept secret path to my svn repository because I have to charge $0.02 admission if I give you direct link. --Eric -- I eat your socks and you pay me. --The business sense of a very small goat. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From raanders at acm.org Tue Jan 6 13:48:21 2009 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:48:21 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <200901061335.45638.enobacon@gmail.com> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> <200901061249.31409.enobacon@gmail.com> <4963C6DC.7070908@acm.org> <200901061335.45638.enobacon@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4963D1A5.7080801@acm.org> Eric Wilhelm wrote: > # from Roderick A. Anderson > # on Tuesday 06 January 2009 13:02: > >> Yeah me too! But I couldn't find anything except a promise to do a >> presentation until a little snow got in the way. :-) And I do mean >> little. I have about 3 feet in my yard and more falling. > > Yes. Well, I was going to go into the snow business, but then all of my > product melted. > > So, presently I'm busy selling off all of my snow shipping trucks and > packaging equipment because apparently free software pays better. > > But there will be some slides or something soon. Meanwhile, you have to > know the extremely well-kept secret path to my svn repository because I > have to charge $0.02 admission if I give you direct link. Yes. Very well hidden. :-) It'll be a bit before I can download and build. Thanks, Rod -- > > --Eric From pjf at perltraining.com.au Tue Jan 6 21:08:45 2009 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:08:45 +1100 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> Message-ID: <496438DD.4020908@perltraining.com.au> G'day Rod, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything > newer/better? I've heard (but not used) good things about wxGlade: http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/ I don't know the quality of Perl code it produces, but it claims to do so. YMMV. One of the advantages of using wx is that you should be able to take your code (with supporting wx libraries) between platforms. Cheerio, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From enobacon at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 22:28:34 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 22:28:34 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl and GUIs In-Reply-To: <496438DD.4020908@perltraining.com.au> References: <4963B9AF.3070603@acm.org> <496438DD.4020908@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <200901062228.34406.enobacon@gmail.com> # from Paul Fenwick # on Tuesday 06 January 2009 21:08: >> I like the idea of Perl-Glade but was wondering if there is anything >> newer/better? > >I've heard (but not used) good things about wxGlade: > >????????http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/ > >I don't know the quality of Perl code it produces, but it claims to do > so. YMMV. I have had some issues with the quality of code produced, specifically with regard to strict. And the general scheme of printing code rather bothers me. Plus, it can lead to architectural contortions. I also have some trouble with particularities in its use of sizers and it can be maddening to try to rearrange your widget/sizer hierarchy graphically. It is a decent graphical introduction to what the widgets are and how they fit together (xrced also works for this.) I think it might be ok for quick app or a learning experience, but I found all of that rather painful when it came to maintenance. --Eric -- A counterintuitive sansevieria trifasciata was once literalized guiltily. --Product of Artificial Intelligence --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From jaleto at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 18:01:07 2009 From: jaleto at gmail.com (Jonathan Leto) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:01:07 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Student Programs for 2009 (warning: long but important) In-Reply-To: <2f916f83-dd06-4ae6-82d8-985fadfc6d61@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com> References: <2f916f83-dd06-4ae6-82d8-985fadfc6d61@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <9aaadf9c0901081801g23d46e1bwbbcb45e8f5f4493c@mail.gmail.com> Howdy, It looks like GSOC 2009 is a done deal, time to start looking for mentors and students. I think PDX.pm should look into participating in GHOP as well. How is it going to work next year, with Parrot having it's own org and the question over whether one organization can/should represent both Perl 5 and Perl 6/Rakudo ? Thoughts, comments and recommendations are very welcome. Cheers, ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: LH (Leslie Hawthorn) Date: Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:14 AM Subject: Student Programs for 2009 (warning: long but important) To: Google Summer of Code Mentors List First and foremost, Happy 2009 to all! For those of you recently enjoying holidays, I hope they were pleasant and restful. We've received Executive approval to run Google Summer of Code and the Google Highly Open Participation Contest once again in 2009. Summer of Code will be a bit smaller (targeting ~1000 students this year) so we will likely target fewer organizations (~150). The stipend amounts ($4500 to the successful student and $500 to the organization) will remain unchanged. We'll be making a teaser announcement on the program discussion list later today, and once that happens you should feel free to begin finding your would-be 2009 students. It is, however, imperative that you make clear that there is no guarantee that your organization will be accepted in GSoC 2009. You should also make clear to these would-be student participants that you cannot in any way guarantee a place for them in the program just because your organization is accepted into GSoC 2009. I'll be making a more formal announcement, including details on timing for 2009, at FOSDEM. I'll post the salient points to this list since I can imagine most of you will not be able to attend the conference. For now, it's safe to assume the program timeline is roughly the same as for 2008. For those interested in all things GHOP, we will be holding the Contest once again this year, likely in November. We will not be expanding its scope greatly, and whether this means we will accept few organizations or more organizations with less funding for each is TBD. More on GHOP and incentivizing younger students to participate in your project in the interim before the contest forthcoming in a few weeks - stay tuned. After that mail, I'll make sure discussion of the contest is redirected to the most appropriate mailing list. Any questions, ask away. Cheers, LH --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google Summer of Code Mentors List" group. To post to this group, send email to google-summer-of-code-mentors-list at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-summer-of-code-mentors-list+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-mentors-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- [---------------------] Jonathan Leto jaleto at gmail.com From enobacon at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 23:31:57 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:31:57 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] SOC 2009 - finding students In-Reply-To: <9aaadf9c0901081801g23d46e1bwbbcb45e8f5f4493c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f916f83-dd06-4ae6-82d8-985fadfc6d61@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <9aaadf9c0901081801g23d46e1bwbbcb45e8f5f4493c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901082331.57884.enobacon@gmail.com> # from Jonathan Leto # on Thursday 08 January 2009 18:01: >It looks like GSOC 2009 is a done deal, time to start looking for >mentors and students. Indeed. I think possibly we need more students. Is anyone interested in becoming the pdx.pm student liaison? What follows are some thoughts which I just sent to the pm-groups list: For 2008, we had a great turnout of willing and able mentors, but only about 16 student applications. This implies that we need to try to reach more students and encourage them to apply for summer of code this year. We'll probably start to see more information from Google about SOC 2009 within a month or so. For now: http://tinyurl.com/9r55v3 Last year taught us that the returning organizations which started early were more successful in recruiting students. While we can't say for sure that Perl/Parrot will be accepted as mentor organizations, we'll get a very late start if we wait. If it (knock on wood) doesn't happen, the Perl community will still benefit from efforts to connect with more students. The following are just a few ideas of what your local Perl Mongers group could do to help. Please forward this to your mailing list or discuss it at your next meeting. Find out if your local university has Perl in the curriculum. If so, get in touch with the professors and let them know about your local Perl Mongers group. Ask if they would be interested in you speaking to their class or giving a presentation on-campus. If the computer science department doesn't seem interested in Perl, you might find users (or potential users) in other departments. Think about all of the niche data-crunching for which Perl gets used. Find grad students who might be doing that - whatever their major might be. Are any members of your group recently graduated? If so, the contacts they still have might be a great place to start, especially in non-cs disciplines. Even in very specialized applications, the chances are that the Perl community contains a mentor with a related background. --Eric -- hobgoblin n 1: (folklore) a small grotesque supernatural creature that makes trouble for human beings --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From kellert at ohsu.edu Mon Jan 12 12:25:31 2009 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:25:31 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] wrapper for C Message-ID: Greetings, There was a recent discussion regarding GUI approaches. My question is along the same line: I've been asked by a C programmer to write a wrapper for his set of C programs to make a single app for non- programmers. Could the cognoscenti give me their advice for modules, tools or approaches for this sort of thing? My first thought was to make it a simple command-line approach with Config::Std for setting site-dependent things like paths to libraries, and default options and IO::Prompt functions for the user input. But then I thought maybe a real GUI might be needed to help non- programmers actually use the thing down the road. thanks for any advice. Tom kellert at ohsu.edu 503-494-2442 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From enobacon at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 12:43:41 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:43:41 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] wrapper for C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901121243.41281.enobacon@gmail.com> # from Thomas Keller # on Monday 12 January 2009 12:25: >I've been asked by a C programmer to write a ? >wrapper for his set of C programs to make a single app for non- >programmers. Are these programs suitable to simple form-driven input? How much explanation is needed for the interactions between them (if any) and the various options? > But then I thought maybe a real GUI might be needed to help non- >programmers actually use the thing down the road. Assuming that you can get away with simple form-based setup like "select input file", "select output file", some checkboxes, text fields and so on... Looking at e.g. kdialog might be one place to start. Or, the FreeTUIT kit might be nearly ready for general consumption in that regard. --Eric -- Like a lot of people, I was mathematically abused as a child. --Paul Graham --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From enobacon at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 10:29:04 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:29:04 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] meeting tonight - How a Virtual Machine Works Message-ID: <200901141029.04353.enobacon@gmail.com> Wed. January 14th, 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. chromatic presents: How a Virtual Machine Works Perl 6, Perl 5, Python, Ruby, Lua, JavaScript, Java, C#, and many other languages use virtual machines as their execution environments. Instead of compiling directly to machine code, they rely on the presence of an ideal machine built specifically for the language ? porting the language to a new architecture often means only porting that virtual machine. Does that sound complicated? It's not. Some of the details of very efficient and effective virtual machines are, but the general ideas are simple. This talk explains the important components of a virtual machine and how they fit together. Examples will come from the world of Perl 5, Parrot, and Perl 6, but the concepts apply to many languages and VMs. You may never need to hack the guts of your favorite language, but understanding how they work can help you become a better programmer. As always, the meeting will be followed by social hour at the LuckyLab. -- http://pdx.pm.org From keithl at kl-ic.com Thu Jan 15 11:56:50 2009 From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:56:50 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It Message-ID: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> Last night at the Lab after the pm meeting, discussion veered to the underrepresentation of women in CS. Kernel hacker Val Aurora suggests the book "Ask For It: How Women Can Use the Power of Negotiation to Get What They Really Want" by Babcock and Laschever. The problem is that in most situations men are about 10x more likely to ask for what they want than women; while much of the time the guys are turned down, they sometimes get what they ask for. That usually means better jobs, better pay, better purchases, and so forth. The authors teach some of the basic negotiating skills, as well as techniques to deal with the frequent rejections that come from asking for the iffy stuff. I bought a copy for my wife, and what we learn from it will help both of us. Perl Mongers include women with the energy and skills to change the world - if this helps them do make good changes better and faster, the sooner they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be! Keith -- Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com Voice (503)-520-1993 KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon" Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs From kellert at ohsu.edu Thu Jan 15 12:08:20 2009 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:08:20 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> Message-ID: <59986361-46F9-4D91-BCA0-BA0A36628345@ohsu.edu> Thanks Keith. Can men read it to educate their feminine side? Tom K On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:56 AM, Keith Lofstrom wrote: > Last night at the Lab after the pm meeting, discussion veered to > the underrepresentation of women in CS. Kernel hacker Val Aurora > suggests the book "Ask For It: How Women Can Use the Power of > Negotiation to Get What They Really Want" by Babcock and Laschever. > The problem is that in most situations men are about 10x more > likely to ask for what they want than women; while much of the > time the guys are turned down, they sometimes get what they ask > for. That usually means better jobs, better pay, better purchases, > and so forth. The authors teach some of the basic negotiating > skills, as well as techniques to deal with the frequent rejections > that come from asking for the iffy stuff. > > I bought a copy for my wife, and what we learn from it will help > both of us. Perl Mongers include women with the energy and skills > to change the world - if this helps them do make good changes > better and faster, the sooner they learn this stuff, the better > off we all will be! > > Keith > > -- > Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com Voice (503)-520-1993 > KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in > Silicon" > Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From enobacon at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 12:19:55 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:19:55 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] can we find one student for GSoC 2009? Message-ID: <200901151219.55941.enobacon@gmail.com> Hi all, I would like to have a few volunteers for our student outreach program. If you know a likely candidate or have the time to do a campus visit, please step forward. Let's set an example for other perl mongers groups. http://leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2009/01/perl-monger-parallelism.html (Please feel free to contact me off-list if you or someone you know would like to volunteered.) By reading this message, you agree to allow yourself to be volunteered for this task by one of your fellow members. Thanks, Eric -- Speak softly and carry a big carrot. --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From amdemew at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 14:35:23 2009 From: amdemew at gmail.com (Addie M) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:35:23 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> Message-ID: <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> Let me try to be polite with this response, as a woman in CS (and someone who still hasn't gone to a meeting, so I feel awkward just butting in, but I feel extraordinarily passionate about this). I've heard of this book countless times and I think it addresses the issue of why women who are already in CS, on average, are not as "successful" as men. But it doesn't actually directly address the issue of underrepresentation. Negotiation skills aren't exactly an issue early on in the pipeline (typically academia), where women are leaking out like crazy or just not entering at all. I do think, though, that the trend of women not "succeeding" as much as men in computing and other fields (business etc) because they aren't as aggressive or willing to sell themselves is indicative of exactly why women aren't in the field in the first place. An environment that rewards this stereotypically masculine behavior is very off-putting or daunting to many women. Countless studies have shown that the hyper-masculine culture of computing is the core cause of women's underrepresentation in the field. I consider myself a mostly androgynous person - due to my upbringing I show some strong masculine traits, but I also reflect (and embrace) a tremendous amount of my upbringing as a female, which includes a strong interest in politeness and a general aversion to the traits that drive negotiators (unfortunately, people with feminine upbringings don't rule the business world). I think having discussions about the paucity of women in CS, especially when these discussions are led by people in the majority group, is fantastic. All members of the computing community need to be aware of and sensitive to these issues in order to make the field appealing to people who are talented and capable but nonetheless averse because they cannot personally identify with the culture. But I feel compelled to steer the conversation in a slightly different direction just to show how the approach of pushing a book like this on women is more of a symptom of the problem than a solution. Being in the field for the past 10 years has been a constant struggle to maintain my identity in light of an overwhelming message to adapt to the culture of computing if I want to succeed, or even just stick around. Realistically, I understand the necessity of, in this case, needing to negotiate and advocate for myself if I want to do well. That said, doing so stretches far beyond my comfort zone and even my fundamental beliefs. I'm willing to change myself a bit to accomodate the culture, but the culture has not changed at all to accomodate me, and that's why "the sooner they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be!" hit a wrong note with me. Until there's a little give on each side, expect to see a persistent lack of diversity in this field. That said, if you're really compelled about this issue, start googling about the underrepresentation of women in computing and you'll find a huge amount of research that all says essentially the same thing. In other words, the research has identified the problem, but most of the community isn't aware of this. Implementing a solution is tricky, but the more of us that are aware of what's going on, the closer we'll get to making a positive change for women and the community as a whole. My recommendation as a starting place is "Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing" by Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher. If you've always comfortable in this culture, you'll probably learn some things. If you haven't felt comfortable at points, you'll realize you aren't as unique a case as you thought (that was what happened for me). JMHO, and thanks for reading if you have lasted this long, Addie (perl programmer who does yoga on meeting nights) ps - an unfortunate counter-argument to this book, and an indication of our culture as a whole - women who do negotiate like men in the workplace still get worse results, as this behavior isn't looked upon favorably when they exhibit it. There was a study released sometime last year showing this trend, and I'd share a link if I wasn't going braindead on good keywords to use to look it up. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Keith Lofstrom wrote: > Last night at the Lab after the pm meeting, discussion veered to > the underrepresentation of women in CS. Kernel hacker Val Aurora > suggests the book "Ask For It: How Women Can Use the Power of > Negotiation to Get What They Really Want" by Babcock and Laschever. > The problem is that in most situations men are about 10x more > likely to ask for what they want than women; while much of the > time the guys are turned down, they sometimes get what they ask > for. That usually means better jobs, better pay, better purchases, > and so forth. The authors teach some of the basic negotiating > skills, as well as techniques to deal with the frequent rejections > that come from asking for the iffy stuff. > > I bought a copy for my wife, and what we learn from it will help > both of us. Perl Mongers include women with the energy and skills > to change the world - if this helps them do make good changes > better and faster, the sooner they learn this stuff, the better > off we all will be! > > Keith > > -- > Keith Lofstrom keithl at keithl.com Voice (503)-520-1993 > KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon" > Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chromatic at wgz.org Thu Jan 15 15:03:14 2009 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:03:14 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> On Thursday 15 January 2009 14:35:23 Addie M wrote: > I'm willing to change myself a bit to accomodate the culture, but the > culture has not changed at all to accomodate me, and that's why "the sooner > they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be!" hit a wrong note > with me. ?Until there's a little give on each side, expect to see a > persistent lack of diversity in this field. I wish I had something better to add to this discussion than what Addie has said, but it's satisfying to agree completely. With that said, are there specific ideas or practices that PDX.pm (or other communities of which we are part) can do to encourage everyone who may be interested but isn't a middle-class white male age 21 - 45 to participate more fully in the community? -- c From igal at pragmaticraft.com Thu Jan 15 16:04:56 2009 From: igal at pragmaticraft.com (Igal Koshevoy) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:04:56 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <496FCF28.7020300@pragmaticraft.com> chromatic wrote: > On Thursday 15 January 2009 14:35:23 Addie M wrote: > > >> I'm willing to change myself a bit to accomodate the culture, but the >> culture has not changed at all to accomodate me, and that's why "the sooner >> they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be!" hit a wrong note >> with me. Until there's a little give on each side, expect to see a >> persistent lack of diversity in this field. >> > > I wish I had something better to add to this discussion than what Addie has > said, but it's satisfying to agree completely. > > With that said, are there specific ideas or practices that PDX.pm (or other > communities of which we are part) can do to encourage everyone who may be > interested but isn't a middle-class white male age 21 - 45 to participate more > fully in the community? I'd also be very interested in hearing responses to the above questions. I can personally attest to the fact that all the organizers of our local open tech communities that I've met are good, caring people and think they'd be glad to implement these sorts of improvements if they could be identified. -igal From Peter at PSDT.com Thu Jan 15 16:23:08 2009 From: Peter at PSDT.com (Peter Scott) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:23:08 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090115162229.034e4830@mail.webquarry.com> At 03:03 PM 1/15/2009, chromatic wrote: >With that said, are there specific ideas or practices that PDX.pm (or other >communities of which we are part) can do to encourage everyone who may be >interested but isn't a middle-class white male age 21 - 45 to >participate more >fully in the community? Hmm, I guess I qualify for encouragement under the senior citizen category by 2 years... -- Peter Scott Pacific Systems Design Technologies http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.perlmedic.com/ From teknotus at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 16:24:19 2009 From: teknotus at gmail.com (Daniel Johnson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:24:19 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: >> I'm willing to change myself a bit to accomodate the culture, but the >> culture has not changed at all to accomodate me, and that's why "the sooner >> they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be!" hit a wrong note >> with me. Until there's a little give on each side, expect to see a >> persistent lack of diversity in this field. Unfortunately the usual route to get the base skills become a programmer is to take classes, and those classes will usually be taught in an environment fully enclosed by the culture as it now exists. I've been having some success with mentoring women with technology including programming. I think part of that success is avoiding the typical cultural environment. Whatever negatives they face are ones I brought, so I only have to focus on fixing my own behavior not the behavior of the whole community. When I mentioned my mentoring efforts at the meeting Allison Randal said that mentoring made a big difference for her when she was learning. We should all be aware of a few of her accomplishments. > I wish I had something better to add to this discussion than what Addie has > said, but it's satisfying to agree completely. > > With that said, are there specific ideas or practices that PDX.pm (or other > communities of which we are part) can do to encourage everyone who may be > interested but isn't a middle-class white male age 21 - 45 to participate more > fully in the community? Something I've noticed is that at a lot of meetings there seem to be a lot more people who want to share than people who want to listen. It is rare for me to get help from anyone else, or feel like I have an opportunity to be helpful at a user group meeting. I certainly have learned things at meetings, but most don't seem to be structured well to work through the problems of people who come. The primary exceptions to this rule have been pdxlug (inactive), and dorkbot. From selenamarie at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 15:59:08 2009 From: selenamarie at gmail.com (Selena Deckelmann) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:59:08 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <2b5e566d0901151559l2e9da792k7fab493d422ffe1a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:03 PM, chromatic wrote: > On Thursday 15 January 2009 14:35:23 Addie M wrote: > >> I'm willing to change myself a bit to accomodate the culture, but the >> culture has not changed at all to accomodate me, and that's why "the sooner >> they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be!" hit a wrong note >> with me. Until there's a little give on each side, expect to see a >> persistent lack of diversity in this field. > > I wish I had something better to add to this discussion than what Addie has > said, but it's satisfying to agree completely. > > With that said, are there specific ideas or practices that PDX.pm (or other > communities of which we are part) can do to encourage everyone who may be > interested but isn't a middle-class white male age 21 - 45 to participate more > fully in the community? First, +1 to Addie's comments. Active networking with technical women and direct, specific recruitment to projects and meetings has worked the best for me. And before we all go off and flagellate ourselves for totally sucking, Portland does better than many other cities w/r/t female attendance and participation in the open source/user group community. I guess that just tells you how bad it is other places. It is quite possible to get more women to come to perl-specific activities. One thing to think about is having lunch get-togethers, or events that are more friendly to people who have after-work commitments (like Addie) that consistently conflict with our meeting time. I don't know if you've noticed, but none of the user group leaders (of the groups I've attended) have children. Also, I've found that once I prove a meeting is worth attending (and fun!), people re-arrange their schedules to fit the meeting. Or we move our meetings to accommodate them (Hi David!) :) I'm not saying that Eric has to do any of this -- but those of you who feel passionately, and want to help the gender balance change, there are things you could be doing. -selena -- Selena Deckelmann Open Source Bridge - http://www.opensourcebridge.org PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily From david at kineticode.com Thu Jan 15 17:42:12 2009 From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:42:12 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <2b5e566d0901151559l2e9da792k7fab493d422ffe1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> <2b5e566d0901151559l2e9da792k7fab493d422ffe1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D1E59CA-49D8-4F51-9C97-F1D5F001D9DA@kineticode.com> On Jan 15, 2009, at 3:59 PM, Selena Deckelmann wrote: > Also, I've found that once I prove a meeting is worth attending (and > fun!), people re-arrange their schedules to fit the meeting. Or we > move our meetings to accommodate them (Hi David!) :) *snort*. Sorry I can't make PDXPUG tonight; got a dad's group thing with Anna's school. :-) David From Peter at PSDT.com Thu Jan 15 17:57:18 2009 From: Peter at PSDT.com (Peter Scott) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:57:18 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090115174909.034d8060@mail.webquarry.com> At 02:35 PM 1/15/2009, Addie M wrote: >I do think, though, that the trend of women not "succeeding" as much >as men in computing and other fields (business etc) because they >aren't as aggressive or willing to sell themselves is indicative of >exactly why women aren't in the field in the first place. An >environment that rewards this stereotypically masculine behavior is >very off-putting or daunting to many women. Countless studies have >shown that the hyper-masculine culture of computing is the core cause >of women's underrepresentation in the field. I consider myself a >mostly androgynous person - due to my upbringing I show some strong >masculine traits, but I also reflect (and embrace) a tremendous amount >of my upbringing as a female, which includes a strong interest in >politeness and a general aversion to the traits that drive negotiators >(unfortunately, people with feminine upbringings don't rule the >business world). [...] > >I'm willing to change myself a bit to accomodate the culture, but the >culture has not changed at all to accomodate me, and that's why "the >sooner they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be!" hit a >wrong note with me. Until there's a little give on each side, expect >to see a persistent lack of diversity in this field. I also have to agree with this almost totally. Frankly, I have the same reaction to many people in the business, i.e., that I have a strong interest in politeness and am frequently put off by pervasive aggressive negotiating. Although I find the aggression more a business trait than a geek trait. Since I may have a longer horizon than some, I will say that I have seen considerable change in the culture since my CS undergrad class in 1981 when there were 3 women in a field of 120, and when I started attending trade shows in 1984 and virtually the only women in sight were behind booth counters (or atop podia...). Not enough change, not fast enough, but still, in the right direction. -- Peter Scott Pacific Systems Design Technologies http://www.perldebugged.com/ http://www.perlmedic.com/ From amdemew at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 18:01:09 2009 From: amdemew at gmail.com (Addie M) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:01:09 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <2b5e566d0901151559l2e9da792k7fab493d422ffe1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> <2b5e566d0901151559l2e9da792k7fab493d422ffe1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58146c830901151801r19a530f7wac2312c8282b562d@mail.gmail.com> I should just mention my own reasons for not going to more meetings, which unfortunately doesn't make finding good solutions any easier. Sorry :-) The main reason is balance - I need a lot of not-coding time (like with yoga classes), despite my desire to better immerse myself in the local tech community. In college, I was never able to take more than one or two CS classes at a time, or I'd get burnt out - I took liberal arts classes to balance those out, usually, and it worked nicely. I've only been working for two years - just spending a full day working on code was an overwhelming thing to get comfortable with; involving myself in "extracurriculars" will take even longer, despite my desire. That leaves so much of the responsibility in my court - growing up, learning, adapting, etc. But it is the honest reason I'm not more involved. I currently only regularly attend Code N Splode (hi Selena) and I suspect that once I get really comfortable with those meetings I will feel less overwhelmed by the prospect of tacking on another monthly meeting. Like I said, not very helpful in terms of increasing participation, but perhaps a reason to not get down on yourselves, either ;-) -Addie On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Selena Deckelmann wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:03 PM, chromatic wrote: > > On Thursday 15 January 2009 14:35:23 Addie M wrote: > > > >> I'm willing to change myself a bit to accomodate the culture, but the > >> culture has not changed at all to accomodate me, and that's why "the > sooner > >> they learn this stuff, the better off we all will be!" hit a wrong note > >> with me. Until there's a little give on each side, expect to see a > >> persistent lack of diversity in this field. > > > > I wish I had something better to add to this discussion than what Addie > has > > said, but it's satisfying to agree completely. > > > > With that said, are there specific ideas or practices that PDX.pm (or > other > > communities of which we are part) can do to encourage everyone who may be > > interested but isn't a middle-class white male age 21 - 45 to participate > more > > fully in the community? > > First, +1 to Addie's comments. > > Active networking with technical women and direct, specific > recruitment to projects and meetings has worked the best for me. > > And before we all go off and flagellate ourselves for totally sucking, > Portland does better than many other cities w/r/t female attendance > and participation in the open source/user group community. I guess > that just tells you how bad it is other places. > > It is quite possible to get more women to come to perl-specific > activities. One thing to think about is having lunch get-togethers, or > events that are more friendly to people who have after-work > commitments (like Addie) that consistently conflict with our meeting > time. I don't know if you've noticed, but none of the user group > leaders (of the groups I've attended) have children. > > Also, I've found that once I prove a meeting is worth attending (and > fun!), people re-arrange their schedules to fit the meeting. Or we > move our meetings to accommodate them (Hi David!) :) > > I'm not saying that Eric has to do any of this -- but those of you who > feel passionately, and want to help the gender balance change, there > are things you could be doing. > > -selena > > -- > Selena Deckelmann > Open Source Bridge - http://www.opensourcebridge.org > PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx > Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From randall at sonofhans.net Thu Jan 15 22:36:09 2009 From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:36:09 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> Message-ID: <78A68961-ED9B-4AA1-BB58-BE6D0FAFEA8A@sonofhans.net> On Jan 15, 2009, at 4:24 PM, Daniel Johnson wrote: > When I mentioned my mentoring efforts at the meeting Allison Randal > said that mentoring made a big difference for her when she was > learning. yes, this is critical. organizations must want to change, and must encourage real mentorship. an explicit part of my job is making sure our people are put to their highest and best use, and helping them to define that themselves. i meet most weeks with most developers, just for this purpose. it isn't aimed at the women on our team: it's a committment to human beings generally. pragmatically it benefits our company because we absolutely refuse to have a revolving door. ethically i enjoy it because it feels like The Right Thing. almost by virtue of being able to read this email, we all live in luxury literally unimaginable in most places and times, and for most people. organizations must decide to spend some of those resources to care for the human beings in their sphere of influence. so from that perspective the "Ask for it" advice strikes me as somewhat hollow[1]. first we must create a good environment for our people. to the extent that someone on our team feels the need to aggressively ask for something that is their right, i feel like i have failed. r ---- 1. clearly, i hope, no criticism is intended. there is no single solution, and being more forthright or aggressive can certainly help. From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Jan 16 11:22:57 2009 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:22:57 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Looking for some short-term work, local or telecommute Message-ID: <86vdsfukby.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> I've had a couple of recent cancellations of stuff I thought I could count on for Jan/Feb, and it's left me a little, er, under-funded. If there's some local/telecommute Perl (or Smalltalk) consulting or training or contracting available, please contact me. Price is flexible. Has to be locally processible (or at most a day or two out of town), because I'm still seeing doctors about my broken arm recovery. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion From MichaelRWolf at att.net Fri Jan 16 17:35:56 2009 From: MichaelRWolf at att.net (Michael R. Wolf) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:35:56 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Ask For It In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090115162229.034e4830@mail.webquarry.com> References: <20090115195650.GB1943@gate.kl-ic.com> <58146c830901151435l78ed9d01y3afc58d9bfad8ace@mail.gmail.com> <200901151503.14464.chromatic@wgz.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20090115162229.034e4830@mail.webquarry.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2009, at 4:23 PM, Peter Scott wrote: > At 03:03 PM 1/15/2009, chromatic wrote: >> With that said, are there specific ideas or practices that PDX.pm >> (or other >> communities of which we are part) can do to encourage everyone who >> may be >> interested but isn't a middle-class white male age 21 - 45 to >> participate more >> fully in the community? > > Hmm, I guess I qualify for encouragement under the senior citizen > category by 2 years... I guess Peter and I were born within a year or so of each other. Oops, did I "out" myself as an old white guy? Demographics has shown that being a "white guy" is a status that will no longer have majority status by the time I leave the active work force. I've known this for a long time, and have engaged "diversity" issues for a long time. (BTW, the open source community is much better at diversity than many cultures.) Given the decline of the CS profession, this discussion can be flipped from "what's wrong with CS culture" into "how can CS attract a wider pool". This kind of reframing from "what's wrong with oppression" into "what's possible by inclusion" is a reframing that I've seen work in a lot of other cross-cultural (for many definitions of 'culture') discussions. -- Michael R. Wolf All mammals learn by playing! MichaelRWolf at att.net From jaleto at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 19:18:56 2009 From: jaleto at gmail.com (Jonathan Leto) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:18:56 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] can we find one student for GSoC 2009? In-Reply-To: <200901151219.55941.enobacon@gmail.com> References: <200901151219.55941.enobacon@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9aaadf9c0901161918w7214f44ck7793f3f8c341c44a@mail.gmail.com> Howdy, There is now a wiki page for all this hubub http://pdx.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?GoogleSummerOfCode2009 Feel free to add useful information. Cheers, On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Hi all, > > I would like to have a few volunteers for our student outreach program. > If you know a likely candidate or have the time to do a campus visit, > please step forward. Let's set an example for other perl mongers > groups. > > http://leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2009/01/perl-monger-parallelism.html > > (Please feel free to contact me off-list if you or someone you know > would like to volunteered.) > > By reading this message, you agree to allow yourself to be volunteered > for this task by one of your fellow members. > > Thanks, > Eric > -- > Speak softly and carry a big carrot. > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- [---------------------] Jonathan Leto jaleto at gmail.com From enobacon at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 20:18:53 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:18:53 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] FreeTUIT - Fwd: PLUG Advanced Topics January 21st Message-ID: <200901162018.53968.enobacon@gmail.com> Hi all, Rescheduled from last month: http://calagator.org/events/1250456509 --Eric ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- PLUG Advanced Topics Meeting January 21st, 2009 7pm Jax Bar 826 SW 2nd Ave Portland, OR 97204 (503) 228-9128 Speaker: Eric Wilhelm Codeless GUI Programming A Declarative Syntax Layer for Desktop Graphical User Interfaces This will be the world premiere of a game-changing advancement in the development of desktop graphical user interfaces (GUIs). FreeTUIT removes the verbosity, tedium, and confusion from GUI development and provides a unified syntax for widget layout and configuration which supports good software design practice without getting in the way of rapid application development. FreeTUIT is a syntax and runtime for concisely declaring the layout and configuration of GUI widgets (such as forms, toolbars, buttons, and dialogs). The freetuit interpreter drives a unified object layer which is accessible from event callbacks. This takes you from a blank page to a static demo of the layout with zero setup and allows desktop applications to be developed and deployed faster than web applications by simply removing the HTML, CSS, XML, HTTP, Javascript, Database, Network, and User Agent components. Jax is next to the 2nd Ave Max stop. -- Introducing change is like pulling off a bandage: the pain is a memory almost as soon as you feel it. --Paul Graham --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From jaleto at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 09:20:36 2009 From: jaleto at gmail.com (Jonathan Leto) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:20:36 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] FreeTUIT - Fwd: PLUG Advanced Topics January 21st In-Reply-To: <200901162018.53968.enobacon@gmail.com> References: <200901162018.53968.enobacon@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9aaadf9c0901170920s5b6de999hba4d448dc92a70a7@mail.gmail.com> Howdy, FreeTUIT sounds interesting, what background knowledge is assumed or would be beneficial for the meeting ? Cheers, On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote: > Hi all, > > Rescheduled from last month: http://calagator.org/events/1250456509 > > --Eric > > ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- > > PLUG Advanced Topics Meeting > January 21st, 2009 7pm > > Jax Bar > 826 SW 2nd Ave > Portland, OR 97204 > (503) 228-9128 > > Speaker: Eric Wilhelm > > Codeless GUI Programming > A Declarative Syntax Layer for Desktop Graphical User Interfaces > > This will be the world premiere of a game-changing advancement in the > development of desktop graphical user interfaces (GUIs). FreeTUIT > removes the verbosity, tedium, and confusion from GUI development and > provides a unified syntax for widget layout and configuration which > supports good software design practice without getting in the way of > rapid application development. > > FreeTUIT is a syntax and runtime for concisely declaring the layout and > configuration of GUI widgets (such as forms, toolbars, buttons, and > dialogs). The freetuit interpreter drives a unified object layer which > is accessible from event callbacks. This takes you from a blank page > to a static demo of the layout with zero setup and allows desktop > applications to be developed and deployed faster than web applications > by simply removing the HTML, CSS, XML, HTTP, Javascript, Database, > Network, and User Agent components. > > Jax is next to the 2nd Ave Max stop. > > -- > Introducing change is like pulling off a bandage: the pain is a memory > almost as soon as you feel it. > --Paul Graham > --------------------------------------------------- > http://scratchcomputing.com > --------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- [---------------------] Jonathan Leto jaleto at gmail.com From enobacon at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 11:27:27 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:27:27 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] FreeTUIT - Fwd: PLUG Advanced Topics January 21st In-Reply-To: <9aaadf9c0901170920s5b6de999hba4d448dc92a70a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200901162018.53968.enobacon@gmail.com> <9aaadf9c0901170920s5b6de999hba4d448dc92a70a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901171127.27153.enobacon@gmail.com> # from Jonathan Leto # on Saturday 17 January 2009 09:20: >FreeTUIT sounds interesting, what background knowledge is assumed or >would be beneficial for the meeting ? I suppose "you've used a computer", "you've programmed a computer", and possibly "you've used the internet" would be about the minimum experience required. Some knowledge of and having-played-with the Wx, Qt, Gtk, or Tk GUI widget-sets/toolkits and/or their associated wxGlade/Glade/designer WYSIWYWYWG (what you see is what you wish you would get) GUI builders would be helpful for understanding some of the concepts, but not necessary. If you've ever written HTML, that's good. If you've done anything remotely resembling any of the above and then felt like you needed to scrub your eyes with steel wool, you should certainly enjoy this. --Eric -- hobgoblin n 1: (folklore) a small grotesque supernatural creature that makes trouble for human beings --------------------------------------------------- http://scratchcomputing.com --------------------------------------------------- From enobacon at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 11:23:05 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:23:05 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Portland JavaScript Admirers' first monthly meeting Message-ID: <200901201123.05859.enobacon@gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded Message: ---------- Subject: Portland JavaScript Admirers' first monthly meeting Date: Tuesday 20 January 2009 10:59 From: Jesse Hallett To: Eric Wilhelm Crosspost alert! Portland JavaScript Admirers is a new group for discussing everything related to JavaScript and ECMAscript. I know that a lot of Perl programmers are into web programming. If you would like a closer look at the client-side of things, or if you are a JavaScript guru with wisdom to share, I encourage you to attend the Portland JavaScript admirers' first monthly meeting on January 28th from 7pm-9 at Cubespace . We will discuss topics ranging from client-side web frameworks, to functional and prototypal programming theory. Topics slated for this meeting include: * Sproutcore - An overview of this new client-side web application framework * JavaScript: The Good Parts - Tips on how to write beautiful JavaScript from the book by Douglas Crockford * jQuery 1.3 - New features in the web's most dynamic DOM library More topics are welcome! If you would like to give a presentation, or have a suggestion for a topic, please send a message to pdxjs at googlegroups.com. And feel free to join our mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/pdxjs if you too are a JavaScript admirer. Cheers, Jesse Hallett Portland JavaScript Admirer P.S. Happy new president day! ------------------------------------------------------- From enobacon at gmail.com Wed Jan 28 17:52:15 2009 From: enobacon at gmail.com (Seven till Seven) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:52:15 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl in the 21st Century - Feb. meeting in 2 weeks Message-ID: <200901281752.15189.enobacon@gmail.com> Wed. February 11th, 6:53pm at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave. Perl in the 21st Century speaker: EricWilhelm I started using Perl just over six years ago, when 5.6.2 was already getting old and 5.8.1 was on the way. By the time I put my first module on the CPAN, over half of the current contributors had already shipped. I have often read the source of a core module and asked "Why?" only to discover some unknown feature or historical accident. The history lesson continues all the way into the roots of Unix in some cases, but also often leaves me thinking "So?". And now I am quickly approaching my 40th CPAN distribution. In this talk, I will share my own experiences in developing with Perl and explore the idea of the "Modern" or "Enlightened" Perl. Did I miss the heyday of Perl or are we still making that now? How does today's Perl code look different than it did 5 or 10 years ago? Is there a Perl renaissance coming, and what does it have to do with Perl 6? What modules should you be using for new development? Where is my flying car? Why am I still programming in Perl? And why am I programming at all? I will try to find answers to some of these questions and invite you to bring questions (or answers!) of your own. As always, the meeting will be followed by social hour at the LuckyLab. -- http://pdx.pm.org From schwern at pobox.com Fri Jan 30 13:27:59 2009 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:27:59 -0800 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Looking for work Message-ID: <498370DF.70908@pobox.com> My expected winter client fell through. As much as I'd like to continue leveling in WoW, I'm left without much paying work at the moment. Take advantage of the economic downturn and get your own Perl demi-god, cheap! :) My skill set is a bit scattered around the map, but here's a summary of what I can do professionally: Pretty much anything Perl. Sponsored CPAN work. Get bugs fixed and features added fast, on my own modules other others. Glue code, data munging/conversion. CMS conversion, database conversion and unification, Drupal/Wordpress conversion. Both one time and continuous. Writing automated tests. Fixing broken test suites and testing processes. Get control of your terrifying legacy code. Understand it, document it, test it, simplify it, no longer fear it. In Perl and in other languages. Software engineering training to get out of the code & fix loop. Better estimates, less bugs, effective testing, practical schedules. Effective version control use. Can also handle C, shell, and Makefiles. Wouldn't mind an excuse to work with Ruby or Python (for reduced rates due to my relative lack of experience). SQL optimization and database architecture for both PostgreSQL and MySQL. Thanks, Schwern -- The interface should be as clean as newly fallen snow and its behavior as explicit as Japanese eel porn.