From wcooley at nakedape.cc  Thu Mar  1 09:45:44 2007
From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 09:45:44 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>

On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 10:48 -0800, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> # from Bruce J Keeler
> # on Wednesday 28 February 2007 10:43 am:
> 
> >Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> >> Well, as much as I love editing rcs files, I think it might be time
> >> to do something else.  Our edits to hacks ratio is looking rather
> >> lame, so in our case I'm not sure we're getting that much milage out
> >> of a wiki.
> >
> >How sophisticated are the attack scripts?  Would they be confused by
> >something as simple as, say, changing the name of the form field that
> >gets submitted?  Or adding a hidden field with a special value that
> > gets checked by the wiki code?
> 
> Possibly, but if they become only slightly more sophisticated they will 
> easily catch-up to that.
> 
> The sad truth is that we have more edit from bots than people.  I think 
> that violates one of the "why wiki works" laws.

A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.

Wil
-- 
Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc>
http://nakedape.cc
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From wcooley at nakedape.cc  Thu Mar  1 09:51:52 2007
From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 09:51:52 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
Message-ID: <1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>

On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 09:45 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:

> A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.

Erhm, or OpenID.

Wil
-- 
Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc>
http://nakedape.cc
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From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 12:33:52 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:33:52 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
Message-ID: <45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>

Wil Cooley wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 09:45 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
> 
>> A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.
> 
> Erhm, or OpenID.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_Features

Mediawiki's got this all figured out.

From wcooley at nakedape.cc  Thu Mar  1 13:03:21 2007
From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 13:03:21 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <1172783001.6641.10.camel@willow.odshp.com>

On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 12:33 -0800, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> Wil Cooley wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 09:45 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
> > 
> >> A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.
> > 
> > Erhm, or OpenID.
> 
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_Features
> 
> Mediawiki's got this all figured out.

Except that it's MediaWiki (*shiver*).

Wil
-- 
Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc>
http://nakedape.cc
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From keithl at kl-ic.com  Thu Mar  1 13:12:46 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:12:46 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>

> Wil Cooley wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 09:45 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
> > 
> >> A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.
> > 
> > Erhm, or OpenID.

On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 12:33:52PM -0800, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_Features
> 
> Mediawiki's got this all figured out.

Hmm.  Mediawiki is my favorite wiki from the user viewpoint, but
I use kwiki because I sorta understand it and the Perl it is
written in.  I would use Mediawiki instead, but I worry about
being a turning on the Apache module for PHP, a language I do
not understand and have heard scare stories about. 

Judgement question, Oh nobler and wiser heads:  is it safe to
turn on PHP and use it only for Mediawiki?  Or would I be
dabbling in the dark arts, and selling my website to Satan?

Do friends let friends drive PHP?

Keith
(not a Real Programmer (tm), though I can fake it if you hum
the first notes)

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From ckuskie at dalsemi.com  Thu Mar  1 13:32:32 2007
From: ckuskie at dalsemi.com (Colin Kuskie)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:32:32 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <1172783001.6641.10.camel@willow.odshp.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
	<1172783001.6641.10.camel@willow.odshp.com>
Message-ID: <20070301213232.GD22490@dalsemi.com>

On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 01:03:21PM -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
 
> Except that it's MediaWiki (*shiver*).

</lurk>

How about WebGUI?

http://www.webgui.org

It's written in perl and has a newly minted Wiki plug-in.

Colin

<lurk>

From mikeraz at patch.com  Thu Mar  1 13:36:29 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:36:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <20070301213232.GD22490@dalsemi.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
	<1172783001.6641.10.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070301213232.GD22490@dalsemi.com>
Message-ID: <54512.170.135.112.12.1172784989.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Colin Kuskie wrote:
> How about WebGUI?
> http://www.webgui.org
> It's written in perl and has a newly minted Wiki plug-in.

It expects to assume complete control over your apache infrastructure and do proxy
pass through to what ever you currently have set up.
They're installation requirements are frightful.

-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From mikeraz at patch.com  Thu Mar  1 13:39:37 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 13:39:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <54512.170.135.112.12.1172784989.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
	<1172783001.6641.10.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070301213232.GD22490@dalsemi.com>
	<54512.170.135.112.12.1172784989.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <54884.170.135.112.12.1172785177.squirrel@mail.patch.com>


Michael Rasmussen wrote:
> They're installation requirements are frightful.

WTF?  Dayquil is doing a major zombie attack on my literacy levels.

I know they're well intended in making their system requirements for installing
the software here, there and everywhere.


-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
        http://www.patch.com/words/



From joe at radiojoe.org  Thu Mar  1 14:14:54 2007
From: joe at radiojoe.org (Joe Oppegaard)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:14:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com> <200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com> <20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703011321270.24797@gadsden.radiojoe.org>

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 at 1:12pm -0800, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

> Hmm.  Mediawiki is my favorite wiki from the user viewpoint, but
> I use kwiki because I sorta understand it and the Perl it is
> written in.  I would use Mediawiki instead, but I worry about
> being a turning on the Apache module for PHP, a language I do
> not understand and have heard scare stories about.
>
> Judgement question, Oh nobler and wiser heads:  is it safe to
> turn on PHP and use it only for Mediawiki?  Or would I be
> dabbling in the dark arts, and selling my website to Satan?
>
> Do friends let friends drive PHP?
>

Yes, using PHP for Mediawiki is just fine and as safe as any major web 
application. PHP can be done right.

The thing about PHP is that it is so easy for someone who doesn't know 
much about programming to get a basic database-driven website up and 
running pretty quickly. It will be full of security holes, it will be 
impossible to maintain, but it can be done for $200 by your nephew and 
will mostly do what you expect.

Next time you're on a site that has something like id=\d+ in the query 
string, stick a single quote right after the number and watch the 
website break 9 times out of 10. Is it a site with login functionality? 
Login and check your cookie, oh look at that, your user id from their 
database table is the value of the cookie. Edit that cookie with a text 
editor, change your user id to 1, refresh the site and you're probably 
logged in as the administrator.

I'm getting off track, but my point is that while it's easy to see all 
the ways you can write really bad software with PHP, I'm not sure it's 
fair to view PHP as inherently evil.

I've picked up numerous PHP contracts over the last few years and 8 
months ago I picked up a full-time job doing PHP. If you do it right, 
PHP can be a nice convenient language to work with in the website 
domain.

It's like that classic story you hear in college about how people who 
sit in the front of the class have a much higher chance of getting good 
grades. But we all know it has nothing to do with where you sit, it's 
the kind of people who sit in the front of class that are the kind of 
people who study hard and actually care about school. From my 
experience, people who use Perl typically care about their craft, people 
who use PHP typically are sitting in the back of class hung-over with a 
pair of dark aviators on. There are PHP people that sit at the front of 
the class though!

Cheers,
-Joe

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 17:42:41 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:42:41 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>
	<20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <45E78111.1030604@pobox.com>

Keith Lofstrom wrote:
>> Wil Cooley wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 09:45 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
>>>
>>>> A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.
>>> Erhm, or OpenID.
> 
> On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 12:33:52PM -0800, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> 
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_Features
>>
>> Mediawiki's got this all figured out.
> 
> Hmm.  Mediawiki is my favorite wiki from the user viewpoint, but
> I use kwiki because I sorta understand it and the Perl it is
> written in.  I would use Mediawiki instead, but I worry about
> being a turning on the Apache module for PHP, a language I do
> not understand and have heard scare stories about. 
> 
> Judgement question, Oh nobler and wiser heads:  is it safe to
> turn on PHP and use it only for Mediawiki?  Or would I be
> dabbling in the dark arts, and selling my website to Satan?

OMG PHP AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!  PANICC!!
*runs in circles*
*cuts heads off chickens*
*lights stuff on fire*
*buys lottery tickets*

Yes, its fine.  Its the thing that drives bloody Wikipedia used by
bazillions of people every day with code audited by thousands.  Its probably
the best wiki out there and easy to install,

We hate it when folks immediately spit on Perl programs, its hypocritical to
not run something because its PHP.  Saying you won't run an app because its
written in language X is ignoring that code quality is more about the
programmer than the program.

From chromatic at wgz.org  Thu Mar  1 17:53:55 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:53:55 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <45E78111.1030604@pobox.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<45E78111.1030604@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200703011753.55795.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:42, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Its the thing that drives bloody Wikipedia used by
> bazillions of people every day with code audited by thousands.

~snicker~

I'm sorry, it's just that you used the phrase "code audit" with a plural noun 
greater than maybe three people.
	
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/security/2004/09/16/open_source_security_myths.html

-- c

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 18:26:33 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 18:26:33 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <45E78111.1030604@pobox.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<45E78111.1030604@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200703011826.33852.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Michael G Schwern
# on Thursday 01 March 2007 05:42 pm:

>Its the thing that drives bloody Wikipedia used by
>bazillions of people every day with code audited by thousands. ?Its
> probably the best wiki out there and easy to install,
>
>We hate it when folks immediately spit on Perl programs, its
> hypocritical to not run something because its PHP. ?Saying you won't
> run an app because its written in language X is ignoring that code
> quality is more about the programmer than the program.

My reason to not use MediaWiki is not just "It's PHP", (even if I see 
that as the root of the problem), it's not even just because I have 
read the code either.  It's because I have gone to the trouble to 
understand it well enough to modify a very simple behavior and found 
some form of bad idea in the way at  _every_  _single_  _step_.  I'm 
too polite to really do it justice in e-mail.

I don't like pulling hair, that's why I use Perl.

Maybe well-architected code is *possible* in PHP, but MediaWiki ain't 
it.

--Eric
-- 
Speak softly and carry a big carrot.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From jeff at vpservices.com  Thu Mar  1 18:39:18 2007
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:39:18 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <54512.170.135.112.12.1172784989.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>	<45E738B0.9090009@pobox.com>	<1172783001.6641.10.camel@willow.odshp.com>	<20070301213232.GD22490@dalsemi.com>
	<54512.170.135.112.12.1172784989.squirrel@mail.patch.com>
Message-ID: <45E78E56.9060200@vpservices.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 22:09:18 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:09:18 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <200703011753.55795.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070301211246.GB10982@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<45E78111.1030604@pobox.com> <200703011753.55795.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <45E7BF8E.90004@pobox.com>

chromatic wrote:
> On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:42, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> 
>> Its the thing that drives bloody Wikipedia used by
>> bazillions of people every day with code audited by thousands.
> 
> ~snicker~
> 
> I'm sorry, it's just that you used the phrase "code audit" with a plural noun 
> greater than maybe three people.
> 	
> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/security/2004/09/16/open_source_security_myths.html

<rant>
What a bitch-fest that article is.  Commercial programmers don't know jack
about security, either.  Maybe one in a thousand will have a professional
come in and have a look.  At least when you're doing it open you know you're
working in front of a window.  I don't know how many times I've seen
insecure commercial code written with the excuse that nobody will guess
where the hole is.
</rant>

From chromatic at wgz.org  Thu Mar  1 22:20:03 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:20:03 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <45E7BF8E.90004@pobox.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200703011753.55795.chromatic@wgz.org> <45E7BF8E.90004@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200703012220.03370.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Thursday 01 March 2007 22:09, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> chromatic wrote:

> > I'm sorry, it's just that you used the phrase "code audit" with a plural
> > noun greater than maybe three people.
> >
> > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/security/2004/09/16/open_source_security_myth
> >s.html
>
> <rant>
> What a bitch-fest that article is.  Commercial programmers don't know jack
> about security, either.  Maybe one in a thousand will have a professional
> come in and have a look.  At least when you're doing it open you know
> you're working in front of a window.  I don't know how many times I've seen
> insecure commercial code written with the excuse that nobody will guess
> where the hole is.
> </rant>

Hey, at least with open source you have millions of people who could but don't 
look for security holes.

I'm sure not auditing the Mozilla or OO.o codebases for problems.  I fixed a 
few in Parrot though.

-- c

From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 22:44:50 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:44:50 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki, Mediawiki, PHP, and the Dark One
In-Reply-To: <200703012220.03370.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200703011753.55795.chromatic@wgz.org> <45E7BF8E.90004@pobox.com>
	<200703012220.03370.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <45E7C7E2.3080608@pobox.com>

chromatic wrote:
> On Thursday 01 March 2007 22:09, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> 
>> chromatic wrote:
> 
>>> I'm sorry, it's just that you used the phrase "code audit" with a plural
>>> noun greater than maybe three people.
>>>
>>> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/security/2004/09/16/open_source_security_myth
>>> s.html
>> <rant>
>> What a bitch-fest that article is.  Commercial programmers don't know jack
>> about security, either.  Maybe one in a thousand will have a professional
>> come in and have a look.  At least when you're doing it open you know
>> you're working in front of a window.  I don't know how many times I've seen
>> insecure commercial code written with the excuse that nobody will guess
>> where the hole is.
>> </rant>
> 
> Hey, at least with open source you have millions of people who could but don't 
> look for security holes.
> 
> I'm sure not auditing the Mozilla or OO.o codebases for problems.  I fixed a 
> few in Parrot though.

I think this comment sums up my feelings nicely.

(From http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/user/view/cs_msg/44754)

The entire argument for whether closed or open source produces more secure
code is highly flawed, and for the exact reason that is stated early on in
this article: the question must be handled on a case-by-case basis.

...

An advantage of open source in this arena is that independent auditors may
choose to check for security issues and bugs in the code, and can fix them
when they are found. With closed source, something like this requires a
special arragement with the rightsholder.  Note that this does not make the
F/OSS software more secure by default; if no one with the right skills is
looking at the code, holes won't be found. But at least a company or
individual has the option to commence such an audit independantly.


From andrew.clapp at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 14:19:04 2007
From: andrew.clapp at gmail.com (Andrew Clapp)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:19:04 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl CGI apps and javascript
Message-ID: <ac4498880703021419hcd01785m3296364ec13665a@mail.gmail.com>

I hope there is a good way to do this.

I have a very nice function in my CGI app that makes a nicely formatted
table out of a few arguments, the title, an sql query, etc.
If I want to make it sortable using dojo's javascript library, this requires
me to place some javascript (that specifically references the table) in the
header of the html, but typically, I've already printed the header by the
time I want to generate the table.

How is this done correctly?

-ASC

-- 
"Yes, could I please have half an order of magnitude and a side of PI?"
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From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Mar  2 14:25:51 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:25:51 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl CGI apps and javascript
In-Reply-To: <ac4498880703021419hcd01785m3296364ec13665a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac4498880703021419hcd01785m3296364ec13665a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45E8A46F.2020102@pobox.com>

Andrew Clapp wrote:
> I hope there is a good way to do this.
> 
> I have a very nice function in my CGI app that makes a nicely formatted
> table out of a few arguments, the title, an sql query, etc.
> If I want to make it sortable using dojo's javascript library, this
> requires me to place some javascript (that specifically references the
> table) in the header of the html, but typically, I've already printed
> the header by the time I want to generate the table.
> 
> How is this done correctly?

Instead of printing HTML fragments immediately, use a template and pass it
in all the information it needs to render the page.

From andrew.clapp at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 14:35:03 2007
From: andrew.clapp at gmail.com (Andrew Clapp)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:35:03 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl CGI apps and javascript
In-Reply-To: <45E8A46F.2020102@pobox.com>
References: <ac4498880703021419hcd01785m3296364ec13665a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45E8A46F.2020102@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <ac4498880703021435y5e8b546ev648cc20b1f2a91b0@mail.gmail.com>

Allow me to clairify, I'm using CGI::Application.  It has you return your
output at the end of each "function" and it prints it for you.
I guess I'm wondering if I should be using the header_add function to apply
the new javascript before CGI::Application prints.

-ASC

On 3/2/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Andrew Clapp wrote:
> > I hope there is a good way to do this.
> >
> > I have a very nice function in my CGI app that makes a nicely formatted
> > table out of a few arguments, the title, an sql query, etc.
> > If I want to make it sortable using dojo's javascript library, this
> > requires me to place some javascript (that specifically references the
> > table) in the header of the html, but typically, I've already printed
> > the header by the time I want to generate the table.
> >
> > How is this done correctly?
>
> Instead of printing HTML fragments immediately, use a template and pass it
> in all the information it needs to render the page.
>



-- 
"Yes, could I please have half an order of magnitude and a side of PI?"
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From schwern at pobox.com  Fri Mar  2 14:48:33 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:48:33 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [Fwd: brian d foy]
Message-ID: <45E8A9C1.8060102@pobox.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: brian d foy
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:25:06 -0500
From: David H. Adler <dha at panix.com>
To: ny.pm <ny at lists.pm.org>

Our illustrious founder has wikipedia issues. As you may know, his


preferred (and published) rendering of his name is 'brian d foy'.


There's even a style guide.





If you feel like it, you might check out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brian_D._Foy and join the fight to
render him correctly on wikipedia.

dha, unofficial sgt-at-arms

-- 
David H. Adler - <dha at panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
Barter is if he asked someone to look at his program in exchange for a
cow or something.       - Mark-Jason Dominus

**Majordomo list services provided by PANIX <URL:http://www.panix.com>**
**To Unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe ny" to majordomo at lists.pm.org**


From naterajj at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 15:29:06 2007
From: naterajj at gmail.com (Juan Jose Natera)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:29:06 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl CGI apps and javascript
In-Reply-To: <ac4498880703021435y5e8b546ev648cc20b1f2a91b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac4498880703021419hcd01785m3296364ec13665a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45E8A46F.2020102@pobox.com>
	<ac4498880703021435y5e8b546ev648cc20b1f2a91b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <349627440703021529q783882desa65453a5bfa1ca67@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On 3/2/07, Andrew Clapp <andrew.clapp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Allow me to clairify, I'm using CGI::Application.  It has you return your
> output at the end of each "function" and it prints it for you.
> I guess I'm wondering if I should be using the header_add function to apply
> the new javascript before CGI::Application prints.

You're confusing the headers here, CGI::App's header_add is for HTTP
headers, like cookies, content type, etc. On the other hand, if you
want to include javascript, one of the ways of doing it is putting it
in the inside a <script></script> section in your html's
<header></header> section.

The advice given by Michael still applies.

Juan J. Natera

P.S. If you're doing AJAX, you could read HTTP headers that contain JS
code and eval it but that sounds like a lot of unnecessary trouble and
not what you really need.

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 15:37:44 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:37:44 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl CGI apps and javascript
In-Reply-To: <349627440703021529q783882desa65453a5bfa1ca67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac4498880703021419hcd01785m3296364ec13665a@mail.gmail.com>
	<ac4498880703021435y5e8b546ev648cc20b1f2a91b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<349627440703021529q783882desa65453a5bfa1ca67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200703021537.44577.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Juan Jose Natera
# on Friday 02 March 2007 03:29 pm:

><header></header> section.

  s/er//g; #no?

http://hastalasiesta.org/stuffs/nakkeTattis.jpg

--Eric
-- 
The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new $30
shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64.
--Don Lancaster (1991)
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From naterajj at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 15:42:38 2007
From: naterajj at gmail.com (Juan Jose Natera)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:42:38 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl CGI apps and javascript
In-Reply-To: <200703021537.44577.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <ac4498880703021419hcd01785m3296364ec13665a@mail.gmail.com>
	<ac4498880703021435y5e8b546ev648cc20b1f2a91b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<349627440703021529q783882desa65453a5bfa1ca67@mail.gmail.com>
	<200703021537.44577.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <349627440703021542s4700aaefve75e4b5fcdfa6a9e@mail.gmail.com>

that's right, got confused myself

html => head
http => header

:)

On 3/2/07, Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
> # from Juan Jose Natera
> # on Friday 02 March 2007 03:29 pm:
>
> ><header></header> section.
>
>   s/er//g; #no?
>
> http://hastalasiesta.org/stuffs/nakkeTattis.jpg
>
> --Eric
> --
> The only thing that could save UNIX at this late date would be a new $30
> shareware version that runs on an unexpanded Commodore 64.
> --Don Lancaster (1991)
> ---------------------------------------------------
>     http://scratchcomputing.com
> ---------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

From xeres at efn.org  Sat Mar  3 12:45:06 2007
From: xeres at efn.org (Robert Shepard)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 12:45:06 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl CGI apps and javascript
Message-ID: <45E9DE52.9070108@efn.org>

Heedlessly disregarding the word "correctly":

You don't really have to put <script></script> within the html 
<head></head>. Lots of people stick it inside the <body>, or even 
sometimes [horrors!] in between the </head> and <body>, and it still 
seems to run javascript.

You didn't hear this from me. We never had this conversation.

     R


>I hope there is a good way to do this.
>
>I have a very nice function in my CGI app that makes a nicely formatted
>table out of a few arguments, the title, an sql query, etc.
>If I want to make it sortable using dojo's javascript library, this requires
>me to place some javascript (that specifically references the table) in the
>header of the html, but typically, I've already printed the header by the
>time I want to generate the table.
>
>How is this done correctly?
>
>-ASC
>


From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 13:07:57 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:07:57 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Next week: A Small Smalltalk Talk with Rik Smoody -- Wed.
	March 14th, 6:53pm
Message-ID: <200703071307.57304.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Rik Smoody of smOOdynamics will be presenting various aspects of 
Smalltalk, including:

  * Test-Driven Development the Squeak way
  * Seaside (web framework from which Jifty has stolen many ideas)
  * It's Objects all the way down

--Eric
-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar  7 19:13:24 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:13:24 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Irvington apt for rent in my building
Message-ID: <45EF7F54.2030406@pobox.com>

One of the apartments in my building is for rent.  Its an awesome place,
people who have come over here have said "OMG I want your apartment!"  Its a
small two story 4 apartment building one block north of Broadway and 13th
just a few blocks north of the Lloyd center.  The landlady is very nice,
attentive and does a good job keeping up the place.

1806 NE 13th Ave
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1806+NE+13th+Ave,+Portland,+OR+97212&sll=45.535819,-122.6525&sspn=0.008071,0.010922&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=16&ll=45.535814,-122.652504&spn=0.008071,0.01796&om=1&iwloc=addr

The apartments are all basically the same with slight differences.  I'm
going by my own stats:

* $950/month
* Approx $75/month in utilities
* Approx 30' x 30' (nice layout makes it feel bigger)
* First floor
* 1 bathroom w/good tub and shower
* 2 bedroom
* Living room
* Dining room
* Kitchen
* Good water pressure
* Working fireplace
* Wood floors
* Good appliances
* All electric heat and appliances
* Coin-op washer/dryer in the basement ($1.25 to wash, $1 to dry)
* Locked and common basement storage
* 5-10 minute walk to the Lloyd center or 7th st MAX
* Easy on-street parking
* No pets (maybe fish or lizards, nothing that might claw the floors)
* No smoking (go outside)
* Three blocks from a Safeway (one of the uppity ones at least)

I use DSL Northwest and I'd be happy to crank up the bandwidth and split the
cost.


Contact Sue Merfeld for information.
sue at hearthclassics.com
503.331.1337

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 09:07:41 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:07:41 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd:  YACP::Europe re-scheduled to start a day earlier!
Message-ID: <200703080907.41241.ewilhelm@cpan.org>



----- Forwarded message from Thomas Klausner <domm at cpan.org> -----

From: Thomas Klausner <domm at cpan.org>
Subject: [Conferences] YACP::Europe re-scheduled to start a day
 earlier! Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 11:01:43 +0100
To: conferences at yapceurope.org


The bad news: The Conference has to be rescheduled slightly
-----------------------------------------------------------

The ESC Congress 2007 is even bigger than we thought. They expect
 15.000 cardiologists, plus their spouses! Due to this, there is nearly
 not a single bed available in Vienna for the night from Friday, 31st
 August to Saturday, 1st September.

As we do not want to force you to leave on the last day of the
 conference, we decided to
  **reschedule YAPC::Europe to Tuesday, 28th to Thursday, 30th
 August.**

We are very sorry for this, and do hope that it does not cause any
 problems for anybody who might have already booked his or her flights
 or hotel. If this change does cause you some problems, please inform
 us, and we'll see what we can do to help you.


The good news: Register or submit a talk until 31th March and win a
 book!
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
---

We have two coffee-table books (one including a DVD) on Vienna to
 raffle off. To enter the contest, all you need to do is to either
 register for the conference and pay your ticket, or submit a talk
 proposal until 31th March.

-  Zentralfriedhof Vienna: The living Graveyard. Including DVD:
 Universum Documentary A documentary about the Zentralfriedhof, which
 is the second largest cemetery by area and largest by number of
 interred in Europe. In German and English.

-  Wien. Tradition und Moderne. by Doris Simhofer This book is
   German only, but has lots of nice photos :-)

Winners will be announced on 3th April.


YAPC::Europe 2007 website:
--------------------------

http://vienna.yapceurope.org


Thomas Klausner,
on behalf of Vienna.pm

--
#!/usr/bin/perl                               http://domm.zsi.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}
_______________________________________________
Conferences mailing list
Conferences at yapceurope.org
http://lists.yapceurope.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences

----- End forwarded message -----

--
#!/usr/bin/perl                               http://domm.zsi.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}
--
Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org

pm_groups mailing list
pm_groups at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From jeff at vpservices.com  Thu Mar  8 14:48:49 2007
From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:48:49 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] a) housing b) oscon
In-Reply-To: <45EF7F54.2030406@pobox.com>
References: <45EF7F54.2030406@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <45F092D1.6000807@vpservices.com>

Michael G Schwern wrote:
> One of the apartments in my building is for rent. 
Thanks, I'm checking it out.  And speaking of housing ... I'm in kind of 
a peculiar bind and need someplace with broadband to live for the next 
week.  Anyone know of someone who is out of town and needs a house 
watched?  I'm also interested in longer term cheapish studio apt. 
rental.  Sorry for the OT.

As long as I'm asking non-Perl questions ... has anyone on the list who 
submitted an OSCON proposal heard back yet? I haven't.

-- 
Jeff


From allison at perl.org  Thu Mar  8 14:51:07 2007
From: allison at perl.org (Allison Randal)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:51:07 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] a) housing b) oscon
In-Reply-To: <45F092D1.6000807@vpservices.com>
References: <45EF7F54.2030406@pobox.com> <45F092D1.6000807@vpservices.com>
Message-ID: <45F0935B.5090404@perl.org>

Jeff Zucker wrote:
> As long as I'm asking non-Perl questions ... has anyone on the list who 
> submitted an OSCON proposal heard back yet? I haven't.

No one has yet. We're wrapping up voting now...

Allison

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Thu Mar  8 15:21:30 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:21:30 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki question
Message-ID: <37BED4BF-3CB5-4B4C-8238-1296713AEF9E@ohsu.edu>

Greetings,
I am using the kwiki module with perl 5.8.6.
Does anyone know why the "breadcrumbs" functionality would show up on  
one machine but not on another?

thanks,
Tom


Tom Keller, Ph.D.
kellert at ohsu.edu
503-494-2442
6339b Basic Science Bldg
http://www.ohsu.edu/research/core



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From kellert at ohsu.edu  Thu Mar  8 15:31:34 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:31:34 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <37BED4BF-3CB5-4B4C-8238-1296713AEF9E@ohsu.edu>
References: <37BED4BF-3CB5-4B4C-8238-1296713AEF9E@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <225E1764-0FE6-463B-8B90-AACBDAF5C778@ohsu.edu>


On Mar 8, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> Greetings,
> I am using the kwiki module with perl 5.8.6.
> Does anyone know why the "breadcrumbs" functionality would show up  
> on one machine but not on another?
>
> thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> Tom Keller, Ph.D.
> kellert at ohsu.edu
> 503-494-2442
> 6339b Basic Science Bldg
> http://www.ohsu.edu/research/core
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

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From kellert at ohsu.edu  Thu Mar  8 15:32:51 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:32:51 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki question
In-Reply-To: <37BED4BF-3CB5-4B4C-8238-1296713AEF9E@ohsu.edu>
References: <37BED4BF-3CB5-4B4C-8238-1296713AEF9E@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <6561C33B-E47B-4E2F-BFD7-69283D46BC04@ohsu.edu>

whooops sorry 'bout the blank.
.. the hand is quicker than the mind.

The answer is that the default preference is 0 for this feature.

thanks,

Tom K

On Mar 8, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> Greetings,
> I am using the kwiki module with perl 5.8.6.
> Does anyone know why the "breadcrumbs" functionality would show up  
> on one machine but not on another?
>
> thanks,
> Tom
>
>
> Tom Keller, Ph.D.
> kellert at ohsu.edu
> 503-494-2442
> 6339b Basic Science Bldg
> http://www.ohsu.edu/research/core
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

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From schwern at pobox.com  Thu Mar  8 19:10:56 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:10:56 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] a) housing b) oscon
In-Reply-To: <45F092D1.6000807@vpservices.com>
References: <45EF7F54.2030406@pobox.com> <45F092D1.6000807@vpservices.com>
Message-ID: <45F0D040.3080106@pobox.com>

Jeff Zucker wrote:
> Michael G Schwern wrote:
>> One of the apartments in my building is for rent. 
> Thanks, I'm checking it out.  And speaking of housing ... I'm in kind of 
> a peculiar bind and need someplace with broadband to live for the next 
> week.  Anyone know of someone who is out of town and needs a house 
> watched?  I'm also interested in longer term cheapish studio apt. 
> rental.  Sorry for the OT.

Coincidentally, my 2nd bedroom is currently empty and should be so for about
a week.  You're welcome to it and you can try out the building at the same time!

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Fri Mar  9 11:20:04 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:20:04 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 7
Message-ID: <200703091120.04600.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

There's another 700 lines to this if anybody wants it.  I guess I could 
post these on the server, but I've given up on editing around the 
non-perl parts and the whole thing is too big to post on the list.  
Perhaps O'Reilly would do well to focus the newsletter a bit?

--Eric
----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
March 7, 2007
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases
----------------------------------------------------------------
-A+, Network+, Security+ Exams in a Nutshell
-ActionScript 3.0 Design Patterns: Rough Cut Version
-Ajax on Java
-The Art and Science of CSS
-Asterisk: The Future of Telephony: Rough Cuts Version, Second Edition
-bash Cookbook: Rough Cuts Version
-Beyond Schemas: Planning Your XML Model
-Closeup Shooting
-CompTIA A+Essentials 220-601 Exam Guide
-Designing BSD Rootkits
-HDR: An Introduction to High Dynamic Range Photography
-Head First Algebra
-Head First PMP
-Introduction to Flex 2
-Lead Generation on the Web
-Learning WCF: Rough Cuts Version
-Linux Appliance Design
-Linux System Administration
-MAKE: Technology on Your Time Volume 09
-Microsoft Windows Vista Exam 70-620 Guide
-Programming .NET 3.0: Rough Cuts Version
-Programming WCF Services
-Programming WPF: Rough Cuts Version, Second Edition
-QuickBase: The Missing Manual
-TextMate
-Webbots, Spiders, and Screen Scrapers
-What's New in Apache Web Server 2.2?
-Windows Admin Programming with Visual C# 2005 Little Black Book
-Windows Vista Pocket Reference
-Windows Vista: The Definitive Guide
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Peter Morville, "Information Architecture & Search" International
 Master Class, Sydney, Australia--Mar 8-9
-O'Reilly at PMA, Las Vegas, NV--Mar 8-11
-O'Reilly Authors at South by Southwest, Austin, TX--Mar 9-13
-Adam Trachtenberg, LinuxWorld Open Solutions Summit,
 New York, NY--Mar 14
-Chris Shiflett, 2007 PHP Quebec Conference, Montreal, QC--Mar 15
-O'Reilly at Society for Photographic Education, Miami, FL--Mar 15-18
-David Pogue, NYPC, New York, NY--Mar 20
-O'Reilly at SD West, Santa Clara, CA--Mar 20-22
-Jim Holmes, Dayton-Cincinnati Code Camp, Cincinnati, OH--Mar 24
-Rob Orsini at Web Design World, San Francisco, CA Mar 26-27
-Eddie Tapp, Wedding & Portrait Photographers International,
 Las Vegas, NV--Mar?24-28
-Eric Meyer at An Event Apart, Boston, MA Mar 26-27
-O'Reilly at Photoshop World, Boston, MA--Apr 4-5
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-RailsConf 2007 is now sold out--Get On the Waiting List Now
-Register for ETech 2007--Mar 26-29
-Register for the MySQL Conference and Expo--Apr 23-26
-Register for Where 2.0--May 29-30
-Register for the O'Reilly Tools of Change Conference--Jun 18-20
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-David Pogue to visit NYPC March 20
-Call For Makers: Maker Faire Bay Area 2007--Deadline Extended
 to March 18
-QOOP + O'Reilly: Create Your Own Shirt or Mug
-User Group Members Receive a Special 30% Discount on
 O'Reilly Learning Courses
-How an Accident of Hardware Design Encouraged Open Source
-How to Optimize Rank Data in MySQL
-Lightroom Getting Started: Organizing the Lightroom Workspace
-Joe Schorr on Color Management in Aperture
-Replacing AppleScript with Ruby
-Stream Live HDTV from Your Mac
-Cleaning Up Your Disk Drives in Windows Vista
-The Three Faces of ASP.NET AJAX
-Analyzing Assemblies with Reflector
-Statement, Branch, and Path Coverage Testing in Java
-An Introduction to Hibernate 3 Annotations
-Learn Ruby on Rails: the Ultimate Beginner's Tutorial
-Avoid Evil JavaScript
-The Hard Facts about Heading Structure


-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From chromatic at wgz.org  Fri Mar  9 11:26:57 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:26:57 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 7
In-Reply-To: <200703091120.04600.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200703091120.04600.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <200703091126.57705.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Friday 09 March 2007 11:20, The Dread Parrot wrote:

> There's another 700 lines to this if anybody wants it. ?I guess I could
> post these on the server, but I've given up on editing around the
> non-perl parts and the whole thing is too big to post on the list. ?
> Perhaps O'Reilly would do well to focus the newsletter a bit?

What kind of focus would you like to see?

-- c

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Fri Mar  9 12:10:44 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:10:44 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 7
In-Reply-To: <200703091126.57705.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <200703091120.04600.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<200703091126.57705.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <200703091210.45100.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from chromatic
# on Friday 09 March 2007 11:26 am:

>>I've given up on editing around the
>> non-perl parts and the whole thing is too big to post on the list. ?
>> Perhaps O'Reilly would do well to focus the newsletter a bit?
>
>What kind of focus would you like to see?

Umm, a Perl focus for a Perl user's group?  Probably something involving 
pre-selected categories (since web tech, sql, and etc have a fair 
amount of overlap.)  Barring that, something much shorter (e.g. just 
titles) with links to the details.  When e-mail hits the mailing-list 
40KB size threshold, the one-dimensional medium has been exhausted long 
before that.  However, last I checked it wasn't available online in a 
newsletter format (which seems silly given that groups are typically 
archived.)

Example:  what we currently get looks like:

<quote>
----------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases
----------------------------------------------------------------
-A+, Network+, Security+ Exams in a Nutshell
-ActionScript 3.0 Design Patterns: Rough Cut Version
-Ajax on Java
...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Peter Morville, "Information Architecture & Search" International
 Master Class, Sydney, Australia--Mar 8-9
-O'Reilly at PMA, Las Vegas, NV--Mar 8-11
...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-RailsConf 2007 is now sold out--Get On the Waiting List Now
-Register for ETech 2007--Mar 26-29
-Register for the MySQL Conference and Expo--Apr 23-26
...
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-David Pogue to visit NYPC March 20
-Call For Makers: Maker Faire Bay Area 2007--Deadline Extended 
 to March 18
</quote>

And after we've seen all of the news-item titles comes the other 15 
pages (which I trimmed) with a blurb and link for each one (possibly 
recategorized.)  Why not:

----------------------------------------------------------------
News <Put a link here. I'll click it if I'm interested in one.>
----------------------------------------------------------------

Currently, if I'm interested in a title from the news-items section, I 
have to search in my e-mail for the next occurrence just to find a 
link, which I then click.

If the "News" link took me to a page (hint: web pages load faster 
without images on them) with links for all of the titles, I would get 
there more quickly.  That would be about 1.5 pages (~100 lines) long.  
It's a news*letter* not a news*paper*!

Maybe this is too minimalist for some.  The typical solution for that is 
to have a link at the top to get to the page with the dancing bears.

--Eric
-- 
Chicken farmer's observation:  Clunk is the past tense of cluck.
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Mon Mar 12 14:00:30 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:00:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Perl Voting Software
Message-ID: <20070312210030.GG11483@gate.kl-ic.com>


Mongers:

At a rancorous meeting last weekend, I was a "teller" for a
complicated vote.  We used a process called "Single Transferable
Vote" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Transferable_Vote  )
which was well suited for the decision to be made, and came up
with an excellent result, but horribly complicated to work out
with just a spreadsheet.

There is some software available - the Vote::STV Perl module from  
http://ian.kluft.com/opensource/code/ for example - but perhaps
someone on this list knows of something better than that.  We will
be working from paper ballots, and want to leave an extensive paper
audit trail.  Ideas?

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:05:52 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Seven till Seven)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:05:52 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Tonight: A Small Smalltalk Talk with Rik Smoody -- Wed.
	March 14th, 6:53pm
Message-ID: <200703141205.53154.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

That's 6:53pm (PDT*) at FreeGeek -- 1731 SE 10th Ave.
  * If you're running windows, 5:53pm.

Rik Smoody of smOOdynamics will be presenting various aspects of 
Smalltalk, including:

  * Test-Driven Development the Squeak way
  * Seaside (web framework from which Jifty has stolen many ideas)
  * It's Objects all the way down

--Eric
-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Wed Mar 14 21:15:56 2007
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:15:56 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Inline::File and talks
Message-ID: <20070315041556.GA944@joshheumann.com>

For those of you who attended oscon 2006:

I remember seeing Damian give a demonstration of a module he'd written
that allowed him to give a talk using vim with his slides hidden in the
file.  I believe that it was using Inline::File, but I can't find any
references to how he managed to do it (part of it involved mocking up
the series of tildes that made it look like the rest of the file was
empty).

Can anyone verify that I wasn't having another Damian Conway-induced
hallucination (or at least that you had it, too)?  What was the module?

J

From randall at sonofhans.net  Wed Mar 14 22:04:47 2007
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:04:47 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Inline::File and talks
In-Reply-To: <20070315041556.GA944@joshheumann.com>
References: <20070315041556.GA944@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <DAF8EFD0-D5BE-477E-A0D4-A53DCCC2E00E@sonofhans.net>

On Mar 14, 2007, at 9:15 PM, Josh Heumann wrote:

> Can anyone verify that I wasn't having another Damian Conway-induced
> hallucination (or at least that you had it, too)?  What was the  
> module?

why not ask him?  he's australian, right?  don't you guys, like, live  
next door to each other?

:)

r



From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Wed Mar 14 22:36:33 2007
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:36:33 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Inline::File and talks
In-Reply-To: <DAF8EFD0-D5BE-477E-A0D4-A53DCCC2E00E@sonofhans.net>
References: <20070315041556.GA944@joshheumann.com>
	<DAF8EFD0-D5BE-477E-A0D4-A53DCCC2E00E@sonofhans.net>
Message-ID: <20070315053633.GB944@joshheumann.com>

<quote who='Randall Hansen' when='Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 10:04:47PM -0700'>
> why not ask him?  he's australian, right?  don't you guys, like, live  
> next door to each other?

He is Australian, and he does indeed live in Melbourne.  He didn't show
up for the Melbourne.pm meeting last night, though.  I have no idea
why...

But the alternative is email, and I'm sure that he's too busy to respond
to someone with a bad memory, even if I am in the same city.

J

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Thu Mar 15 03:14:54 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas Keller)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 03:14:54 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what's special about smalltalk
Message-ID: <C03520DF-ECBC-4550-847E-E715B94C5C2B@ohsu.edu>

squeek, squeek

I'm trying to remember what the person who gave the pdx.pm Jifty talk  
said. But it had to do with the things that made that counter example  
possible. continuations? I don't know the technical details. But if  
you imagine trying to get that counter example to work with CGI, ....  
I don't know how you would do it. How about using javascript? I think  
you could do it with javascript, and then you'd have to add the  
asynchronous stuff to come close to the way smalltalk does it. I  
almost said painlessly, but that's only because of the great objects  
created by the seaside folks.

In any event, she flat out said they tried to emulate seaside in  
their development of jifty.
Can someone else grock what I'm trying to say and translate into  
computerese?

Tom K




From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 07:44:45 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:44:45 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Inline::File and talks
In-Reply-To: <20070315053633.GB944@joshheumann.com>
References: <20070315041556.GA944@joshheumann.com>
	<DAF8EFD0-D5BE-477E-A0D4-A53DCCC2E00E@sonofhans.net>
	<20070315053633.GB944@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0703150744j78db906ek8eaed961df53d674@mail.gmail.com>

never hurts to try though, right?

On 3/14/07, Josh Heumann <perl-pm at joshheumann.com> wrote:
> <quote who='Randall Hansen' when='Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 10:04:47PM -0700'>
> > why not ask him?  he's australian, right?  don't you guys, like, live
> > next door to each other?
>
> He is Australian, and he does indeed live in Melbourne.  He didn't show
> up for the Melbourne.pm meeting last night, though.  I have no idea
> why...
>
> But the alternative is email, and I'm sure that he's too busy to respond
> to someone with a bad memory, even if I am in the same city.
>
> J
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 07:53:46 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 07:53:46 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what's special about smalltalk
In-Reply-To: <C03520DF-ECBC-4550-847E-E715B94C5C2B@ohsu.edu>
References: <C03520DF-ECBC-4550-847E-E715B94C5C2B@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0703150753u4e0030cbse3b6972453ff59c3@mail.gmail.com>

I might be missing the point here but yes, jifty does emulate
continuations like seaside. As to how they go about it.... not a clue.

There are a few ways that I can think of but all seem some what
clunky. The "best" would be to store a cookie with some 'state_id'
that is then recorded on the backend with all the needed info. Then
when the user requests a page, and since all cookies are avail for all
requests you can rebuild state on the backend and continue as though
nothing has happend. Though to emulate what I saw from last night it
looks like seaside is also adding a unique get var on the URL that
would have the same effect but would give the user the ability to use
the backbutton to change state as well as bookmark but would look some
what ugly and give the user the abitily to monkey with that var.

everything else that I can think of is to just pass everything via
post... though the more that I think about it... I dont think that
would work out so well as the back button would kill it....


On 3/15/07, Thomas Keller <kellert at ohsu.edu> wrote:
> squeek, squeek
>
> I'm trying to remember what the person who gave the pdx.pm Jifty talk
> said. But it had to do with the things that made that counter example
> possible. continuations? I don't know the technical details. But if
> you imagine trying to get that counter example to work with CGI, ....
> I don't know how you would do it. How about using javascript? I think
> you could do it with javascript, and then you'd have to add the
> asynchronous stuff to come close to the way smalltalk does it. I
> almost said painlessly, but that's only because of the great objects
> created by the seaside folks.
>
> In any event, she flat out said they tried to emulate seaside in
> their development of jifty.
> Can someone else grock what I'm trying to say and translate into
> computerese?
>
> Tom K
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Mar 15 09:21:52 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:21:52 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what's special about smalltalk
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0703150753u4e0030cbse3b6972453ff59c3@mail.gmail.com>
	(ben.hengst@gmail.com's message of "Thu,
	15 Mar 2007 07:53:46 -0700")
References: <C03520DF-ECBC-4550-847E-E715B94C5C2B@ohsu.edu>
	<85ddf48b0703150753u4e0030cbse3b6972453ff59c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86ird2o4tb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "benh" == benh  <ben.hengst at gmail.com> writes:

benh> I might be missing the point here but yes, jifty does emulate
benh> continuations like seaside. As to how they go about it.... not a clue.

One advantage seaside has over most (all?) other systems is that the webserver
is monolithic.  I can leave a closure block lying around on server side with a
unique ID, hand you that ID, and when you come back on another hit with that
ID, I can go right to *that state* again.  This is the holy grail of web app
design: to turn the "stateless" web into a "stateful" app.  Using this, I can
take a fairly straightforward "classic GUI" app and "Seaside" it in just a few
steps... what would have been a dialog box turns into a screen, etc.

>From what I've seen of Jifty, it's a simulation of this, because the web hit
to the next apache process is in a different Perl instance from the previous
hit.  But they get you back into the same "state" of the app.  I do a similar
thing with CGI::Prototype for interstitials - with a little bit of care, the
interstitial can sequence through a series of steps working toward a
conclusion ("logging in", "verifying authentication", "caching current
information") before delivering the final pages.  To the programmer, it looks
like you're magically coming back to the "same place", even though there's
been an intervening web hit.

But seaside is the best way... instead of having to pass the state via hiddens
or id-keyed serverside info, you simply "hold the state" waiting for it to be
reactivated on a future hit.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Thu Mar 15 12:19:23 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:19:23 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki software error
Message-ID: <D301A8A5-8A46-46F7-A467-E76278B7A67D@ohsu.edu>

Greetings,
Apple sent out an OS update yesterday (or day before). And now kwiki  
is failing. I don't know if that is a coincidence or causal. Has  
anyone else seen this error:
Storable object version 2.13 does not match $Storable::VERSION 2.15  
at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/ 
DynaLoader.pm line 253.
  at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Base.pm line 110
	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Storable object version 2.13 does not match  
$Storable::VERSIO...') called at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin- 
thread-multi-2level/DynaLoader.pm line 253
	DynaLoader::bootstrap('Storable') called at /System/Library/Perl/ 
5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/Storable.pm line 65
	require Storable.pm called at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Cookie.pm  
line 50
	Spoon::Cookie::fetch('Kwiki::Cookie=HASH(0x1908b8c)') called at / 
Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Cookie.pm line 14
	Spoon::Cookie::init('Kwiki::Cookie=HASH(0x1908b8c)') called at / 
Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 83
	Spoon::Hub::load_class('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)', 'cookie')  
called at (eval 87) line 2
	Spiffy::__ANON__('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at /Library/ 
Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 25
	Spoon::Hub::AUTOLOAD('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at / 
Library/Perl/5.8.6/Kwiki/Theme.pm line 50
	Kwiki::Theme::init('Kwiki::Theme::Basic=HASH(0x190bf0c)') called at / 
Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 83
	Spoon::Hub::load_class('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)', 'theme') called  
at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 49
	Spoon::Hub::preload('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at /Library/ 
Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 32
	Spoon::Hub::process('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at /Library/ 
Perl/5.8.6/Kwiki.pm line 12
	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x1801500)', 'config*.*', '-plugins',  
'plugins') called at /Library/WebServer/Documents/tkwiki/index.cgi  
line 4

Thanks for any help.

Tom K


Tom Keller, Ph.D.
kellert at ohsu.edu
503-494-2442
6339b Basic Science Bldg
http://www.ohsu.edu/research/core



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From chromatic at wgz.org  Thu Mar 15 12:27:43 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:27:43 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki software error
In-Reply-To: <D301A8A5-8A46-46F7-A467-E76278B7A67D@ohsu.edu>
References: <D301A8A5-8A46-46F7-A467-E76278B7A67D@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200703151227.43616.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Thursday 15 March 2007 12:19, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> Apple sent out an OS update yesterday (or day before). And now kwiki
> is failing. I don't know if that is a coincidence or causal. Has
> anyone else seen this error:
> Storable object version 2.13 does not match $Storable::VERSION 2.15
> at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/
> DynaLoader.pm line 253.

Looks like you have a Storable.pm that's newer than a Storable.so (or is it 
Storable.dylib?) on your system.  Installing a new Storable from the CPAN may 
fix this.

-- c

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Thu Mar 15 12:45:13 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:45:13 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd:  kwiki software error
References: <20070315194125.GA1445@ttul.org>
Message-ID: <D7BE2D01-A9F8-404C-AF1F-149A554BB098@ohsu.edu>

Thanks Ingy.
I have been using kwiki from CPAN. I will download and install it  
from svn.kwiki.org, but I'll wait a bit. Could you send us an update  
regarding the patch.

thanks so much.

Tom Keller

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Ingy dot Net" <ingy at ingy.net>
> Date: March 15, 2007 12:41:25 PM PDT
> To: "Thomas J Keller" <kellert at ohsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm] kwiki software error
>
> Thomas,
>
> Are you using Kwiki from CPAN or from svn.kwiki.org. You should  
> definitely be
> using the latter.
>
> BTW, I tried replying to the Pdx-pm mailing list but my mail  
> doesn't get
> through.
>
> Kwiki writes cookies with Storable. Looks like OSX updated  
> Storable, and now
> it can't read the cookie. That seems bad since Storable should be  
> backwards
> compatible. Looks like I'll need to write a patch to protect  
> against that.
>
> You can find me on #kwiki if you want to discuss.
>
> Cheers, Ingy
>
> On 15/03/07 12:19 -0700, Thomas J Keller wrote:
>> Greetings,
>> Apple sent out an OS update yesterday (or day before). And now kwiki
>> is failing. I don't know if that is a coincidence or causal. Has
>> anyone else seen this error:
>> Storable object version 2.13 does not match $Storable::VERSION 2.15
>> at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/
>> DynaLoader.pm line 253.
>>  at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Base.pm line 110
>> 	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Storable object version 2.13 does not match
>> $Storable::VERSIO...') called at /System/Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-
>> thread-multi-2level/DynaLoader.pm line 253
>> 	DynaLoader::bootstrap('Storable') called at /System/Library/Perl/
>> 5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/Storable.pm line 65
>> 	require Storable.pm called at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Cookie.pm
>> line 50
>> 	Spoon::Cookie::fetch('Kwiki::Cookie=HASH(0x1908b8c)') called at /
>> Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Cookie.pm line 14
>> 	Spoon::Cookie::init('Kwiki::Cookie=HASH(0x1908b8c)') called at /
>> Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 83
>> 	Spoon::Hub::load_class('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)', 'cookie')
>> called at (eval 87) line 2
>> 	Spiffy::__ANON__('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at /Library/
>> Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 25
>> 	Spoon::Hub::AUTOLOAD('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at /
>> Library/Perl/5.8.6/Kwiki/Theme.pm line 50
>> 	Kwiki::Theme::init('Kwiki::Theme::Basic=HASH(0x190bf0c)') called at
>> 	/ Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 83
>> 	Spoon::Hub::load_class('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)', 'theme') called
>> at /Library/Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 49
>> 	Spoon::Hub::preload('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at
>> 	/Library/ Perl/5.8.6/Spoon/Hub.pm line 32
>> 	Spoon::Hub::process('Kwiki::Hub=HASH(0x18e189c)') called at
>> 	/Library/ Perl/5.8.6/Kwiki.pm line 12
>> 	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x1801500)', 'config*.*', '-plugins',
>> 'plugins') called at /Library/WebServer/Documents/tkwiki/index.cgi
>> line 4
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>>
>> Tom K
>>
>>
>> Tom Keller, Ph.D.
>> kellert at ohsu.edu
>> 503-494-2442
>> 6339b Basic Science Bldg
>> http://www.ohsu.edu/research/core
>>
>>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
>> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

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From kevin at scaldeferri.com  Thu Mar 15 13:43:57 2007
From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:43:57 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what's special about smalltalk
In-Reply-To: <86ird2o4tb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <C03520DF-ECBC-4550-847E-E715B94C5C2B@ohsu.edu>
	<85ddf48b0703150753u4e0030cbse3b6972453ff59c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ird2o4tb.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <E37586B3-0F0D-495C-9BC9-D068CF8DF4CC@scaldeferri.com>


On Mar 15, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>>>>>> "benh" == benh  <ben.hengst at gmail.com> writes:
>
> benh> I might be missing the point here but yes, jifty does emulate
> benh> continuations like seaside. As to how they go about it....  
> not a clue.
>
> One advantage seaside has over most (all?) other systems is that  
> the webserver
> is monolithic.  I can leave a closure block lying around on server  
> side with a
> unique ID, hand you that ID, and when you come back on another hit  
> with that
> ID, I can go right to *that state* again.  This is the holy grail  
> of web app
> design: to turn the "stateless" web into a "stateful" app.  Using  
> this, I can
> take a fairly straightforward "classic GUI" app and "Seaside" it in  
> just a few
> steps... what would have been a dialog box turns into a screen, etc.

How well does this work in practice?  It seems like it has similar  
issues to other session-based approaches.  For example:

How long is a continuation valid?  If I go away for a couple hours  
will I really be able to pick up again?  Presumably there has to be  
some strategy for garbage-collecting continuations or you'll run out  
of memory eventually.

How do you scale this?  Presumably you have to have a load balancer  
with "continuation-affinity"?  Or is there some way that a  
continuation can be shared across a redundant cluster of machines?

For that matter, how does Smalltalk/Seaside handle single-machine  
multi-CPU/core concurrency?

How friendly are the URLs to being passed around between  
individuals?  Partly this is an issue of expiration as mentioned  
above, but I also hope that authentication is somehow outside of the  
continuation state.


Anyway, these are pretty obvious questions, so I imagine that there  
are reasonable answers, but I'm curious to know what they are.


-kevin



From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 17:33:27 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:33:27 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] how to make a sleepy socket?
Message-ID: <200703151733.27698.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hi all,

I'm using HTTP::Server::Simple and wondering if it's possible to create 
an arbitrary connect latency without putting one computer in Australia.

The process seems to go socket(), bind(), listen(), accept().  But, it 
appears that the OS is being very helpful in queuing connections such 
that overriding accept and taking a wee nap doesn't do the trick (the 
client connect happens under the hood before accept()?)

Any thoughts?  Is there a way to do this in Perl?

Thanks,
Eric
-- 
But as soon as you hear the Doppler shift dropping in pitch, you know
that they're probably going to miss your house, because if they were on
a collision course with your house, the pitch would stay the same until
impact. As I said, that's one's subtle.
--Larry Wall
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Thu Mar 15 17:40:14 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:40:14 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
Message-ID: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>

Hi,
It looks like my Storable.pm got hosed somehow. I tried to remove it  
but got this using cpan.pm:

cpan> clean Storable
Running clean for module Storable
Running make clean
Distribution seems to have never been unzipped/untarred, nothing done

cpan> install Storable
Storable is up to date (2.15).


What the heck?

Tom K



From andy at petdance.com  Thu Mar 15 19:44:20 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:44:20 -0500
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
In-Reply-To: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <AF1F536D-9F94-4A25-A3F3-7ABF25E9F19D@petdance.com>


On Mar 15, 2007, at 7:40 PM, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> cpan> clean Storable
> Running clean for module Storable
> Running make clean
> Distribution seems to have never been unzipped/untarred, nothing done

clean doesn't update the already-installed modules.

Instead, go find where Storable.pm is installed, and remove it.

$ rm $(perldoc -l Storable)

xoa

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From chromatic at wgz.org  Thu Mar 15 22:32:34 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:32:34 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
In-Reply-To: <AF1F536D-9F94-4A25-A3F3-7ABF25E9F19D@petdance.com>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<AF1F536D-9F94-4A25-A3F3-7ABF25E9F19D@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <200703152232.35145.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Thursday 15 March 2007 19:44, Andy Lester wrote:

> clean doesn't update the already-installed modules.
>
> Instead, go find where Storable.pm is installed, and remove it.
>
> $ rm $(perldoc -l Storable)

That's not the problem; the problem is that DynaLoader finds an old 
Storable.so (or whatever it is on Mac OS X) somewhere in an auto/ path before 
the new Storable.so.

-- c

From andy at petdance.com  Thu Mar 15 22:52:16 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 00:52:16 -0500
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
In-Reply-To: <200703152232.35145.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<AF1F536D-9F94-4A25-A3F3-7ABF25E9F19D@petdance.com>
	<200703152232.35145.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <B07F89C7-952D-4277-A976-201AF9A0CF7D@petdance.com>


On Mar 16, 2007, at 12:32 AM, chromatic wrote:

>> Instead, go find where Storable.pm is installed, and remove it.
>>
>> $ rm $(perldoc -l Storable)
>
> That's not the problem; the problem is that DynaLoader finds an old
> Storable.so (or whatever it is on Mac OS X) somewhere in an auto/  
> path before
> the new Storable.so.

Right, but removing the old Storable.pm will let him install a new one.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 23:15:56 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:15:56 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
In-Reply-To: <200703152232.35145.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<AF1F536D-9F94-4A25-A3F3-7ABF25E9F19D@petdance.com>
	<200703152232.35145.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <200703152315.56824.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from chromatic
# on Thursday 15 March 2007 10:32 pm:

>That's not the problem; the problem is that DynaLoader finds an old
>Storable.so (or whatever it is on Mac OS X) somewhere in an auto/ path
> before the new Storable.so.

Right.  So just...

  strace perl -e 'use Storable' 2>&1 | grep Storable\.so

Right?  Oops, it's a mac.  Never could figure out that ktrace thing.

  find $(perl -le 'print join("\n", map({"$_/auto/"} @INC));'
    ) -name 'Storable.dylib'

--Eric
-- 
We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals.
--Quarry worker's creed
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Fri Mar 16 09:42:14 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:42:14 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
In-Reply-To: <200703152315.56824.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<AF1F536D-9F94-4A25-A3F3-7ABF25E9F19D@petdance.com>
	<200703152232.35145.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<200703152315.56824.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <B8E58F91-07FF-4FE7-BD49-698E0EB2DA57@ohsu.edu>

Thanks for your help Eric, chromatic and Andy.
I thought "make clean" from within cpan would work. It didn't, but it  
indicated the problem:
#####
cpan> clean Storable
Running clean for module Storable
Running make clean
Distribution seems to have never been unzipped/untarred, nothing done

cpan> install Storable
Storable is up to date (2.15).
#####

So I'd never find the installed library cause they never got  
installed. But the cpan index showed the latest Storable as having  
been installed.

I was able to reinstall Storable using cpan by using the force option  
and that seems to have done the trick, at least now my kwiki wikis  
are working. (upgraded to kwiki2 in the process)

But I still don't find a storable.dylib or storable.so file anywhere. ??
####
sudo find / -iname storable.dylib -print
catinthehat:~ kellert$ !459
sudo find / -iname storable.so -print
catinthehat:~ kellert$
#####
Nothing with those names. But Storable is presumably working  
correctly, at least as far as is needed by kwiki.

thanks again,
Tom K

On Mar 15, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> # from chromatic
> # on Thursday 15 March 2007 10:32 pm:
>
>> That's not the problem; the problem is that DynaLoader finds an old
>> Storable.so (or whatever it is on Mac OS X) somewhere in an auto/  
>> path
>> before the new Storable.so.
>
> Right.  So just...
>
>   strace perl -e 'use Storable' 2>&1 | grep Storable\.so
>
> Right?  Oops, it's a mac.  Never could figure out that ktrace thing.
>
>   find $(perl -le 'print join("\n", map({"$_/auto/"} @INC));'
>     ) -name 'Storable.dylib'
>
> --Eric
> -- 
> We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals.
> --Quarry worker's creed
> ---------------------------------------------------
>     http://scratchcomputing.com
> ---------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



From chromatic at wgz.org  Fri Mar 16 17:26:43 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:26:43 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
In-Reply-To: <B8E58F91-07FF-4FE7-BD49-698E0EB2DA57@ohsu.edu>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<200703152315.56824.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<B8E58F91-07FF-4FE7-BD49-698E0EB2DA57@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200703161726.43905.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Friday 16 March 2007 09:42, Thomas J Keller wrote:

> But I still don't find a storable.dylib or storable.so file anywhere. ??
> ####
> sudo find / -iname storable.dylib -print
> catinthehat:~ kellert$ !459
> sudo find / -iname storable.so -print
> catinthehat:~ kellert$
> #####
> Nothing with those names. But Storable is presumably working
> correctly, at least as far as is needed by kwiki.

I can never remember the options to find, but I expect it to be 
case-sensitive, so perhaps Storable.dylib?

-- c

From kevin at scaldeferri.com  Fri Mar 16 10:00:20 2007
From: kevin at scaldeferri.com (Kevin Scaldeferri)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:00:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN problem
In-Reply-To: <200703152315.56824.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<AF1F536D-9F94-4A25-A3F3-7ABF25E9F19D@petdance.com>
	<200703152232.35145.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<200703152315.56824.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <D8894DE0-768B-48B0-AFD3-4C3E63BCB4CF@scaldeferri.com>


On Mar 15, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> # from chromatic
> # on Thursday 15 March 2007 10:32 pm:
>
>> That's not the problem; the problem is that DynaLoader finds an old
>> Storable.so (or whatever it is on Mac OS X) somewhere in an auto/  
>> path
>> before the new Storable.so.
>
> Right.  So just...
>
>   strace perl -e 'use Storable' 2>&1 | grep Storable\.so
>
> Right?  Oops, it's a mac.  Never could figure out that ktrace thing.


ktrace perl- e 'use Storable' 2>&1
kdump | grep Storable


Not so hard, is it?


-kevin

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 19:45:06 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:45:06 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN^wmac problem
In-Reply-To: <200703161726.43905.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<B8E58F91-07FF-4FE7-BD49-698E0EB2DA57@ohsu.edu>
	<200703161726.43905.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <200703161945.06294.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from chromatic
# on Friday 16 March 2007 05:26 pm:

>I can never remember the options to find, but I expect it to be
>case-sensitive, so perhaps Storable.dylib?

Well, he was using -iname, so should have found something.  Maybe 
they've taken to storing their libs in the netinfo db now :-/

That did give me a chuckle though, since at the bar on Wed we were just 
discussing how macs should have implemented case insensitivity via the 
*finder* instead of the *filesystem*, yet they didn't modify find!  
Metaphor shear anyone?  I'm laughing and crying (and crying.)

  $ ls
  $ touch bar
  $ find . -name Bar
  $ find . -name bar
  ./bar
  $ rm Bar
  $ find . -name bar

Hah!  Now for more crying...

--Eric
-- 
Cult: A small, unpopular religion.
Religion: A large, popular cult.
-- Unknown
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 14:08:49 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:08:49 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] CPAN^wmac problem
In-Reply-To: <223827C0-C420-47C1-8D0E-487F7C63AB23@ohsu.edu>
References: <BEE86B6B-6C68-45B5-8790-F586620D798C@ohsu.edu>
	<200703161945.06294.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<223827C0-C420-47C1-8D0E-487F7C63AB23@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200703171408.49981.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Thomas Keller
# on Saturday 17 March 2007 01:58 pm:

>Is it possible that Storable has a fall back solution if there is no ?
>library file?

Actually, it appears to be using a .bundle file.

  $ ktrace perl -e 'use Storable'
  $ ponder "why is this two steps?"
  $ kdump | grep -i storable.bundle
   14345 perl     NAMI  "/.../auto/Storable/Storable.bundle"
   14345 perl     NAMI  "/.../auto/Storable/Storable.bundle"
  $ ponder "why did I get the same answer twice?"
  $ sigh "oh well, what can you do?"

--Eric
-- 
"Because understanding simplicity is complicated."
--Eric Raymond
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Sun Mar 18 00:10:44 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:10:44 +0200
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Perl Maps on Frappr.com
Message-ID: <200703180910.45264.shlomif@iglu.org.il>


-- 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
-------------- next part --------------
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From spinnerin at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 09:19:21 2007
From: spinnerin at gmail.com (Audrey Eschright)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:19:21 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Save the date! BarCamp Portland Tech Unconference,
	May 11-12
In-Reply-To: <3171127.MEPKLQKH@the451group.com>
References: <3171127.MEPKLQKH@the451group.com>
Message-ID: <302fa56f0703180919g61408070h5825b9daa28d7cbd@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Raven Zachary <raven.zachary at the451group.com>
Date: Mar 17, 2007 11:27 AM
Subject: Save the date! BarCamp Portland Tech Unconference, May 11-12
To: Audrey Eschright <spinnerin at gmail.com>


I am pleased to announce that BarCamp is coming to Portland on May
11-12! We will also be kicking off the regular DemoCamp event series
during BarCamp to highlight tech startup activity in the Portland
area.

Tech + Geek + Culture. The event for the Portland tech community,
produced BY the Portland tech community.

What is BarCamp? It is an ad-hoc gathering born from the desire for
people to share and learn in an open environment. It is an intense
event with discussions, demos, and interaction from participants.

BarCamp is a FREE event and the content is determined by the
attendees. The event will be hosted at CubeSpace, which has a number
of conference rooms for breakout sessions, a large main meeting area,
wireless access, easy access to public transportation, bike storage,
and ample parking. Thanks to Eva and David at CubeSpace for signing up
as space sponsors for the event (and to Ray at AboutUs for sponsoring
the additional space costs).

We need your help to make BarCamp Portland a fantastic event for the
tech community in Portland. Here's what you can do...

1) Forward this email on to people in the Portland area that may have
an interest in attending. As we have done little marketing of the
event (so far), assume that your local tech social network doesn't
know about it yet.

2) If you have not already added yourself to the BarCamp Portland wiki
page as an attendee, please do so. This will help us get a more
accurate attendance count and plan accordingly (you want food,
right?):

http://barcamp.org/BarCampPortland

3) Add a session idea for the event. This could be a talk, a demo, a
roundtable discussions - whatever! Please add it to the Proposed
Sessions section on the wiki page:

http://barcamp.org/BarCampPortland

4) Attend the BarCamp Portland Meetup this Thursday (03/22) evening
5:30-8pm at Jive Software downtown. Free beer on tap (thanks, Jive!),
the opportunity to network with the tech community in Portland, and
help plan for BarCamp Portland. More details:

http://barcamp.org/BarCampPortlandMeetups

5) Help identify sponsors. CubeSpace and AboutUs are already onboard
as sponsors for the space and related costs (and Jive Software has
been our ongoing meetup and planning sponsor). We are looking for
sponsors to cover food, drinks, and t-shirts.

I hope to see you this Thursday evening at Jive Software for our
monthly tech meetup and BarCamp Portland planning meeting!

PS: If this isn't your type of thing and you want off my BarCamp
Portland mailing list, please reply to this email. I will only do a
few mailings before the event in May (and this list will never be used
for commercial purposes).


Raven Zachary
Research Director, Open Source
The 451 Group

503.334.1810 (main)  / 503.484.6963 (mobile) / 866.388.4422 (fax)
ravenzachary (AOL / Yahoo / MSN IM + Skype)
raven.zachary at the451group.com (email)
http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/ (blog)

** The 451 Group - Analyzing the business of enterprise IT innovation **

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 10:27:26 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:27:26 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [Deadline]  TPF and SoC 2007 (The Perl Foundation)
Message-ID: <200703201027.27034.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hi all,

In case you've been wondering what happened with Google's Summer of Code 
this year:

  http://news.perl-foundation.org/2007/03/tpf_and_soc_2007.html

What's that?  You didn't even know the deadline had passed?  Google 
moved it forward at least a month this year, so that's understandable.  
I get the impression that some organizations received a direct invite 
and TPF wasn't one of them.

The student deadline is this Saturday the 24th.  If you know an eligible 
student who is interested in Perl, please encourage them to submit a 
proposal to complete a task in Perl for one of the other open source 
projects.  TPF won't have a presence directly, but Perl is still an 
extremely useful language.

Thanks,
Eric
-- 
"Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many
rewards, if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book."
--Ronald Reagan
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Tue Mar 20 22:52:34 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:52:34 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow site?
Message-ID: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>


The location:  A machine that has not been visited for a while
The victim:  Someone who should know more about CPAN
The goal: load the CGI::Session module with CPAN
The time:  2007 March 20 1900 PST

The problem: 
CPAN wants to use ftp.perl.org - and for some arcane reason, it
wants to send data at about 100 bytes per second tonight.  As CPAN
slowly loads a current version of 02packages.details.txt.gz (~500KB),
the sun sets, civilizations fall, and continents erode into the sea. 
How, sez I, can I force CPAN to use a different mirror?  perldoc CPAN,
the CPAN FAQ, and other oracles are unhelpful, though perhaps the
same evil forces that mired ftp.perl.org in molasses are also working
on my brain ...

The first amusing flailing workaround:
Manually ownload 02packages.details.txt.gz and 03modlist.data.gz
from an alternate site (about 2 seconds each) and install in the
/root/.cpan/sources/modules directory.  Try "perl -MCPAN -e shell"
again, this time the install getting to the actual download of
CGI::Session.  From ftp.perl.org.  Via the LaBrea Tarfile Pits ...

The second amusing flailing workaround:
Download CPAN-1.8802.tar.gz from alternate site .  Untar into
/root/.cpan/build/ .  Go there,  "perl Makefile.PL", "make test",
"make install".  Then run "perl -MCPAN -e shell", select install
defaults,  and then "install CGI::Session".  Runs at warp speed,
faster than G.W. Bush escaping a Mensa meeting.  Problem solved
in a disgusting manner. 

What is the Easy Way (tm)?

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Mar 20 23:10:43 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:10:43 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow
	site?
In-Reply-To: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <200703202310.43778.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Tuesday 20 March 2007 22:52, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

> What is the Easy Way (tm)?

If you know the right mirror, "o conf cpan; o commit" within the CPAN shell.  
(Check the syntax.)

If you don't know the right mirror and want configuration fun:

	$ perl -MCPAN::FirstTime -e 'CPAN::FirstTime::init()'

Silly trivia: one of my most satisfying patches to Perl was because Jarkko, 
the pumpking at the time, wanted a better pager to select CPAN mirrors, so I 
patched CPAN::Something_Or_Other to have better paging.

(Another one was patching the documentation for ref() to say "This is broken 
in these ways....)

-- c

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Mar 21 01:09:25 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:09:25 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Computing pioneer Backus dies
Message-ID: <20070321080925.GC3922@gate.kl-ic.com>


FYI.

----- Forwarded message from Ed Perkins  -----

Ever learn about BNF in CS school? He was the "B" in BNF...(no he was not an IEEE member)

John Backus, whose development of the Fortran programming language in the 1950s changed
how people interacted with computers and paved the way for modern software, has died. He
was 82.

Backus died Saturday in Ashland, Ore., according to IBM Corp., where he spent his career.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070320/ap_on_hi_te/obit_backus

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar 21 03:35:33 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:35:33 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow
	site?
In-Reply-To: <200703202310.43778.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200703202310.43778.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>

chromatic wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 March 2007 22:52, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> 
>> What is the Easy Way (tm)?
> 
> If you know the right mirror, "o conf cpan; o commit" within the CPAN shell.  
> (Check the syntax.)

o conf urllist unshift http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/CPAN/
o conf commit

That's a mirror right here in Oregon.

Otherwise, simply hitting Ctrl-c will cause CPAN to stop downloading and try
another mirror in your list... or try another download method.  I can't
remember which it does first.  Anyhow, that'll cause ftp.perl.org to cycle its
mirrors.



From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Mar 21 08:02:51 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:02:51 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow
	site?
In-Reply-To: <20070321145304.GA10368@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com> <46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>
	<20070321145304.GA10368@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <200703210802.51759.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Wednesday 21 March 2007 07:53, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

> Thank you chromatic and schwern!  The Ctrl-c method caused CPAN-1.76
> on the ancient machine to just use the stale files, not try another
> mirror.  Now that I have the magic recipe, and have added the speedy
> "ftp.osuosl.org" to the list,  that will not happen again.  During
> my frobbing, I grepped in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.3/CPAN for the string
> "ftp.perl.org", and didn't find it (Amusing workaround number 3 would
> have been to change it by hand).

It was more likely in CPAN::Config (perldoc -l CPAN::Config).  I've changed 
mine by hand a few times (mostly because I always forget "o conf commit").

-- c

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Mar 21 07:53:04 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:53:04 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow
	site?
In-Reply-To: <46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200703202310.43778.chromatic@wgz.org> <46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20070321145304.GA10368@gate.kl-ic.com>

On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 03:35:33AM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> chromatic wrote:
> > On Tuesday 20 March 2007 22:52, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> > 
> >> What is the Easy Way (tm)?
> > 
> > If you know the right mirror, "o conf cpan; o commit" within the CPAN shell.  
> > (Check the syntax.)
> 
> o conf urllist unshift http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/CPAN/
> o conf commit
> 
> That's a mirror right here in Oregon.
> 
> Otherwise, simply hitting Ctrl-c will cause CPAN to stop downloading and try
> another mirror in your list... or try another download method.  I can't
> remember which it does first.  Anyhow, that'll cause ftp.perl.org to cycle its
> mirrors.

Thank you chromatic and schwern!  The Ctrl-c method caused CPAN-1.76
on the ancient machine to just use the stale files, not try another
mirror.  Now that I have the magic recipe, and have added the speedy
"ftp.osuosl.org" to the list,  that will not happen again.  During
my frobbing, I grepped in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.3/CPAN for the string
"ftp.perl.org", and didn't find it (Amusing workaround number 3 would
have been to change it by hand).  Apparently the urllist was empty
and ftp.perl.org was the (unspecified) default.  So there were a few
things broken, an upgrade of the CPAN module helped unbreak them,
and your recipe will be useful in the future.  Other things have
been upgraded, my knowledge is now at 2*epsilon, and I thank you.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Wed Mar 21 09:34:20 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:34:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow
 site?
In-Reply-To: <200703210802.51759.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<46010A75.8000305@pobox.com> <20070321145304.GA10368@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200703210802.51759.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <EC7A78F9-30AD-49AB-9642-0CEAD0281B33@ohsu.edu>

Frobisher |?fr?bi sh ?r| |?fro?b???r| |?fr??b???|
Frobisher, Sir Martin( c. 1535?94), English explorer. In 1576, he  
led an unsuccessful expedition in search of the Northwest Passage.  
Frobisher served in Sir Francis Drake's Caribbean expedition of 1585? 
86 and took part in the defeat of the Spanish Armada.

nice word.

Tom K

On Wednesday 21 March 2007 07:53, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

>> frobbing



From spinnerin at gmail.com  Wed Mar 21 11:24:45 2007
From: spinnerin at gmail.com (Audrey Eschright)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:24:45 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] [OT] New science fiction/horror zine + release party
Message-ID: <10FCFE3B-07AD-4630-BD23-05B5087D84AF@gmail.com>

This isn't really Perl-related, but I've been working on a little  
publishing project for the last few months, and it's finally ready to  
release. It's called Yog's Notebook (website: yogsnotebook.com) and  
features science fiction and horror stories, some commentary, and a  
short comic.

It's for sale on our website, but we're also having a release party  
at Lucky Lab this Saturday, 5PM. I'd love to see some of you there.

Audrey

From jeff at zeroclue.com  Wed Mar 21 12:23:57 2007
From: jeff at zeroclue.com (Jeff Lavallee)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:23:57 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very
	slow	site?
In-Reply-To: <46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>	<200703202310.43778.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <4601864D.10403@zeroclue.com>



Just last night I setup a cronjob to use minicpan (CPAN::Mini) to mirror 
locally, and pointed CPAN.pm at http://localhost/.../CPAN as its first 
choice.  A little disk space intensive, perhaps, but now my CPAN 
installs go lightning quick, and I can install stuff from CPAN even if I 
can't connect to the good old internet.  (Lately I've been finding 
myself poking around what modules are available while on airplanes and 
the like, so the second bit is what I'm most interested in). 


Michael G Schwern wrote:
> chromatic wrote:
>   
>> On Tuesday 20 March 2007 22:52, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> What is the Easy Way (tm)?
>>>       
>> If you know the right mirror, "o conf cpan; o commit" within the CPAN shell.  
>> (Check the syntax.)
>>     
>
> o conf urllist unshift http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/CPAN/
> o conf commit
>
> That's a mirror right here in Oregon.
>
> Otherwise, simply hitting Ctrl-c will cause CPAN to stop downloading and try
> another mirror in your list... or try another download method.  I can't
> remember which it does first.  Anyhow, that'll cause ftp.perl.org to cycle its
> mirrors.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>   


From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Wed Mar 21 12:49:42 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:49:42 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow
	site?
In-Reply-To: <4601864D.10403@zeroclue.com> (Jeff Lavallee's message of "Wed,
	21 Mar 2007 12:23:57 -0700")
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200703202310.43778.chromatic@wgz.org> <46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>
	<4601864D.10403@zeroclue.com>
Message-ID: <86hcsepeax.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Lavallee <jeff at zeroclue.com> writes:

Jeff> Just last night I setup a cronjob to use minicpan (CPAN::Mini) to mirror 
Jeff> locally, and pointed CPAN.pm at http://localhost/.../CPAN as its first 
Jeff> choice.  A little disk space intensive, perhaps, but now my CPAN 
Jeff> installs go lightning quick, and I can install stuff from CPAN even if I 
Jeff> can't connect to the good old internet.

Glad you enjoy that. I'm happy that the code from my column
(http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col42.html) was able to be turned
into that module so more people could take advantage of that.  Also check out
the next in the series for "browsing the local mini-CPAN"
(http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col43.html).

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar 21 14:44:22 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:44:22 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] what to do when cpan multiplexer selects very slow
	site?
In-Reply-To: <EC7A78F9-30AD-49AB-9642-0CEAD0281B33@ohsu.edu>
References: <20070321055233.GA6190@gate.kl-ic.com> <46010A75.8000305@pobox.com>
	<20070321145304.GA10368@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200703210802.51759.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<EC7A78F9-30AD-49AB-9642-0CEAD0281B33@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <4601A736.8070800@pobox.com>

Thomas J Keller wrote:
> Frobisher |?fr?bi sh ?r| |?fro?b???r| |?fr??b???|
> Frobisher, Sir Martin( c. 1535?94), English explorer. In 1576, he  
> led an unsuccessful expedition in search of the Northwest Passage.  
> Frobisher served in Sir Francis Drake's Caribbean expedition of 1585? 
> 86 and took part in the defeat of the Spanish Armada.
> 
> nice word.

More importantly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frobisher_%28Doctor_Who%29

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 18:48:07 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 18:48:07 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: Fwd: Perl 6 Microgrants. Now accepting proposals.
Message-ID: <200703221848.08287.ewilhelm@cpan.org>



----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: [pm_groups] Fwd: Perl 6 Microgrants. Now accepting proposals.
Date: Thursday 22 March 2007 05:02 am
From: Thomas Klausner <domm at cpan.org>
To: pm_groups at pm.org

Hi!

sounds very interesting...

----- Forwarded message from Jesse Vincent <jesse at bestpractical.com>
 -----

From: Jesse Vincent <jesse at bestpractical.com>
Subject: Perl 6 Microgrants. Now accepting proposals.
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:04:29 -0400
To: perl6-internals at perl.org, perl6-language at perl.org,
	perl6-compiler at perl.org, perl5-porters at perl.org

I'm pleased to announce the inaugural Perl 6 Microgrants program.
Best Practical Solutions (my company) has donated USD5,000 to The
Perl Foundation to help support Perl 6 Development.  Leon Brocard,
representing The Perl Foundation's grants committee, will work with
me to select proposals and evaluate project success.  We'll be making
USD500 grants to worthy Perl 6 related efforts. We're hoping to fund
a range of Perl 6-related projects over the life of the grant
program.  Accepted grants might be for coding, documentation, testing
or even writing articles about Perl 6. The program isn't tied to any
one implementation of Perl 6 -- We're interested in seeing proposals
related to Pugs, Perl 6 on Parrot, Perl 6 on Perl 5 or any other Perl
6 implementation.  Generally, we're interested in seeing projects
that can be completed in 4-6 calendar weeks.

Submitting a grant proposal
---------------------------

To submit a grant proposal, please email us at perl6-
microgrants at perl.org with the following information:

* A two to three paragraph summary of the work you intend to do
* A quick bio - Who are you? Is there opensource work you've done
that we should have a look at?
* A brief description of what "success" will mean for your project -
How will we know you're done?
* Where (if anywhere) you've discussed your project in the past
* Where you'll be blogging about your progress. (Twice-weekly blog
posts are a requirement for getting your grant money)

We'll be accepting proposals on a rolling schedule. We expect to pay
out these first 10 grants over the course of the summer. Depending on
how things go, we'll then either find more money for more grant
programs or we'll wind up the program and move on to other endeavors.

We're really excited to get rolling. Submit your proposals early and
often. Don't let somebody else beat you to the punch ;)

Best,

Jesse



----- End forwarded message -----

--
#!/usr/bin/perl                               http://domm.zsi.at
for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}
--
Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org

pm_groups mailing list
pm_groups at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 19:17:42 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (The Dread Parrot)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:17:42 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [pm_groups] YAPC-NA CFP deadline approaching
Message-ID: <200703261917.42403.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hmm, maybe I missed the first announcement?

There's also a looming early-bird deadline approaching for YAPC EU 
(http://vienna.yapceurope.org) for those world-travelers and foreign 
lurkers among us.

If you want to go to Texas in June, details below.

  http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2007/cfp.html

(Texas in June?  Anybody tried that before?)

--Eric
----------  Forwarded Message:  ----------

Subject: [pm_groups] YAPC-NA CFP deadline approaching
Date: Monday 26 March 2007 01:42 pm
From: "Jeremy Fluhmann" <fluhmann at gmail.com>
To: pm_groups at pm.org

Please forward to your pm lists (actually, any list that might have an
interest)
----

Two weeks remain in the Call For Participation!  Visit
http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2007 to register as a new user (or
 login with your existing account) and submit a talk proposal.  If
 possible, please indicate (in the comments section) if you consider
 this talk to be suitable for a beginner, intermediate, or advanced
 Perl user.  Some of the comments from last year indicated a desire to
 know the level of knowledge expected of talk attendees.

Official CFP posting at
 http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2007/cfp.html

Jeremy Fluhmann
http://www.yapc.org/America

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 

        http://pdx.pm.org

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Mon Mar 26 22:02:01 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:02:01 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
Message-ID: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>


Mongers:

Some weeks back we were engaged in a discussion of replacing the PDX
Perl Mongers kwiki with something more secure, and I have been looking
for the same thing for the 5 kwikis I manage.  I was considering MediaWiki
for a while.   Eric warned us that MediaWiki is poorly written.  It also
turns out to be large, and dependent on MySQL, and difficult to set up. 
Tastes bad, more filling.

In my somewhat scattered way, I have been learning about TWiki.  That is
one of the "top 5" wikis, it is written in Perl, and the dependencies
are pretty simple.  There is a MediaWiki-like WYSIWYG editor for users
who want such things.  The security is granular.  There is a translator
from Kwiki to Twiki.  It is skinnable and has lots of plugins available. 
The configuration is a little complicated (to me at least), and they
have their own weird terminology for things.  However, the configuration
variables seem to be inheritance based, so one can set up "webs" and
"subwebs" that act separately but are configurable from the top.  I have
a hunch that once I am over the learning curve, I'm going to like TWiki.  

This matters to pdx.pm because (1) you folks might decide that this
would be a good migration path for the pdx.pm wiki, and (2) this might
make an interesting meeting subject. 

Somebody could slurp the pdx.pm site onto a laptop, and we could
actually set up TWiki for pdx.pm at the meeting, then upload it to the
server when we are done.   I assume that what I learn about TWiki over
the next two weeks will be learned by all of you in about 20 minutes at
the meeting, so I don't think I would be good at leading the discussion.
However, I may understand what is being talked about for 15 minutes
longer than I normally do!

So, if one or two of you take a look at TWiki, and tell us whether it
is worth considering or else stinks on ice, it might make be suitable
for the April 11th topic.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Mar 26 23:35:56 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:35:56 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com> (Keith Lofstrom's message
	of "Mon, 26 Mar 2007 22:02:01 -0700")
References: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <86bqifxkfn.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> writes:

Keith> Some weeks back we were engaged in a discussion of replacing the PDX
Keith> Perl Mongers kwiki with something more secure, and I have been looking
Keith> for the same thing for the 5 kwikis I manage.  I was considering MediaWiki
Keith> for a while.   Eric warned us that MediaWiki is poorly written.  It also
Keith> turns out to be large, and dependent on MySQL, and difficult to set up. 
Keith> Tastes bad, more filling.

For the amount that MediaWiki is poorly written, TWiki is doubly so.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Mar 27 00:04:38 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 00:04:38 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <86bqifxkfn.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<86bqifxkfn.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <4608C206.6030904@pobox.com>

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> writes:
> 
> Keith> Some weeks back we were engaged in a discussion of replacing the PDX
> Keith> Perl Mongers kwiki with something more secure, and I have been looking
> Keith> for the same thing for the 5 kwikis I manage.  I was considering MediaWiki
> Keith> for a while.   Eric warned us that MediaWiki is poorly written.  It also
> Keith> turns out to be large, and dependent on MySQL, and difficult to set up. 
> Keith> Tastes bad, more filling.
> 
> For the amount that MediaWiki is poorly written, TWiki is doubly so.

Twiki used to be awful, I remember when it was just one big messy file and
they were having all sorts of problems with simple injection attacks.  But
they appear to have gone through a complete rewrite.  Its now nearly all split
out into libraries.


From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Tue Mar 27 01:29:34 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:29:34 +0200
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <200703271029.34347.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

On Tuesday 27 March 2007, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> Mongers:
>
> Some weeks back we were engaged in a discussion of replacing the PDX
> Perl Mongers kwiki with something more secure, and I have been looking
> for the same thing for the 5 kwikis I manage.  I was considering MediaWiki
> for a while.   Eric warned us that MediaWiki is poorly written.  It also
> turns out to be large, and dependent on MySQL, and difficult to set up.
> Tastes bad, more filling.

You claim you've heard that MediaWiki is "difficult to set up". I'm afraid 
that's not the case. I once feared that a wiki of such complexity and power 
will be hard to set up, but it took me exactly 10 minutes to set it up at 
home. Jimbo Wales (the wikimedia director) said when he came to Israel that 
he once cleared an afternoon to set up an MW instance for his friends' 
children and he was done after 5 minutes.

As is the case with most such PHP applications, as complex as they are, like 
WordPress, PostNuke, Joomla, etc. you can easily set them up by browsing to 
an initial page, fiddeling with the permissions, creating a database and 
filling a form. This is what enables many non-programmers to use PHP to set 
up sites with an amazing functionaliy on a garden-variety hosting service 
that only gives them PHP, MySQL and an FTP access.

I'm not claiming it's a good idea, but it is possible. This is one thing PHP 
has done right, and makes it more suitable for many web tasks in this 
respect.

You can read my review of MediaWiki and other wikis here:

http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/web/which-wiki/

I found MW more straightforward to set up in many respects than Kwiki which 
requires running a command on the shell. You can set up several instances of 
MediaWiki on one server easily, and some sites can host your wiki, and 
maintain it as part of their general MW maintenance.

As for the quality of the code: MW is mostly bug-free and works very well. 
Someone told me its code was of such low quality that he considered starting 
from scratch, using something else than PHP. If I were him, I would probably 
simply refactor it. The difference between a functional but messy code and a 
functional and highly modular and clean code is 3 weeks:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html

And often it is enough to do "continuous refactoring" or "just-in-time 
refactoring" in which many issues in the code still remain, but the code is 
refactored in enough places to accomodate for the changes.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
    -- An Israeli Linuxer

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 03:25:01 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 03:25:01 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <200703270325.01647.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Keith Lofstrom
# on Monday 26 March 2007 10:02 pm:

>So, if one or two of you take a look at TWiki, and tell us whether it
>is worth considering or else stinks on ice, it might make be suitable
>for the April 11th topic.

I believe we have speakers for April and May (though they, *ahem* need 
to send me blurbage.)  Perhaps you'll know it well enough by June?

--Eric
-- 
Turns out the optimal technique is to put it in reverse and gun it.
--Steven Squyres (on challenges in interplanetary robot navigation)
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From chromatic at wgz.org  Tue Mar 27 10:14:19 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] April Blurb
Message-ID: <200703271014.19854.chromatic@wgz.org>

Hi all,

I agreed to talk about Parrot at the April meeting.

What would you like to know?

I can talk about its design, its internals, how to program PIR (its native 
language), building a language on top of it, and how interoperability works.

What's most interesting to anyone who has an opinion?

-- c

From ingy at ingy.net  Tue Mar 27 11:07:13 2007
From: ingy at ingy.net (Ingy dot Net)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:07:13 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
Message-ID: <20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org>

NOTE: I wrote this a long time ago but it didn't get through. I've
resubscribed to the list.

----

Hi All,

It's MrKwiki.

Don't know if you know, but Kwiki's been heavily revamped in the last 3
months. See kwiki.org.

The trick is, everything new is on http://svn.kwiki.org/kwiki/trunk/ and
not on CPAN (yet).

See http://www.kwiki.org/?UpgradingToKwiki2 for upgrade instructions. It's
totally simple.

kwiki.org is currently using Kwiki::TypeKey for auth. It's a reasonable
solution I think.

Miyagawa wrote it, and while he suggests we implement and move to
Kwiki::OpenID, the TypeKey stuff is basically the same thing and works now.

Also there's a good group of people on #kwiki to help out.

Cheers, Ingy


On 01/03/07 09:51 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 09:45 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
> 
> > A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.
> 
> Erhm, or OpenID.
> 
> Wil
> -- 
> Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc>
> http://nakedape.cc



> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

From ingy at ingy.net  Tue Mar 27 11:15:09 2007
From: ingy at ingy.net (Ingy dot Net)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:15:09 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070327050201.GA4657@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <20070327181509.GA16784@ttul.org>

On 26/03/07 22:02 -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> 
> Mongers:
> 
> Some weeks back we were engaged in a discussion of replacing the PDX
> Perl Mongers kwiki with something more secure, and I have been looking
> for the same thing for the 5 kwikis I manage.  I was considering MediaWiki
> for a while.   Eric warned us that MediaWiki is poorly written.  It also
> turns out to be large, and dependent on MySQL, and difficult to set up. 
> Tastes bad, more filling.

What do you want out of Kwiki?

Kwiki 2.0 is working better than ever, is again under constant development,
and has a zero dependency install.

I think most importantly in this context, Kwiki isn't just a wiki
written in Perl. It's a wiki that's all about Perl foremost. I'd be sad
to see a pm group leave Kwiki without giving it a fighting chance.

So let me know what you need out of Kwiki. There's a lot of new stuff around
the corner. Let's see if it will help you out.

Cheers, Ingy

> In my somewhat scattered way, I have been learning about TWiki.  That is
> one of the "top 5" wikis, it is written in Perl, and the dependencies
> are pretty simple.  There is a MediaWiki-like WYSIWYG editor for users
> who want such things.  The security is granular.  There is a translator
> from Kwiki to Twiki.  It is skinnable and has lots of plugins available. 
> The configuration is a little complicated (to me at least), and they
> have their own weird terminology for things.  However, the configuration
> variables seem to be inheritance based, so one can set up "webs" and
> "subwebs" that act separately but are configurable from the top.  I have
> a hunch that once I am over the learning curve, I'm going to like TWiki.  
> 
> This matters to pdx.pm because (1) you folks might decide that this
> would be a good migration path for the pdx.pm wiki, and (2) this might
> make an interesting meeting subject. 
> 
> Somebody could slurp the pdx.pm site onto a laptop, and we could
> actually set up TWiki for pdx.pm at the meeting, then upload it to the
> server when we are done.   I assume that what I learn about TWiki over
> the next two weeks will be learned by all of you in about 20 minutes at
> the meeting, so I don't think I would be good at leading the discussion.
> However, I may understand what is being talked about for 15 minutes
> longer than I normally do!
> 
> So, if one or two of you take a look at TWiki, and tell us whether it
> is worth considering or else stinks on ice, it might make be suitable
> for the April 11th topic.
> 
> Keith
> 
> -- 
> Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
> KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
> Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list

From pdxperl at tuesdaystaken.com  Tue Mar 27 13:02:10 2007
From: pdxperl at tuesdaystaken.com (Myrrh Larsen)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:02:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>

My only input, as someone regularly subjected to TWiki via some contract work I 
do, is that, in my own experience, I regret every painfully long moment spent 
grappling with the thing. MW seems pretty cool.

--myrrh

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Tue Mar 27 13:36:20 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:36:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
Message-ID: <30AAF721-BC2F-4566-AF78-BE643BDD193A@ohsu.edu>

My 2 cents.
I recently upgraded to kwiki2 and it worked "as advertised" that is  
to say no problems. I have three wikis running and have had no  
problems; though we are behind a firewall, not open to the mean ol'  
world. And Ingy was really helpful with the couple of questions I had.

I had the impression Erik was wondering if there wasn't another  
approach to "staying connected" other than a wiki. He mentioned  
Combust, I think. (?)
.. I like wikis myself, but many people find them to much of a  
nuisance to mess with, so I haven't gotten get as much input using  
them as I would like.

Tom K


On Mar 27, 2007, at 1:02 PM, Myrrh Larsen wrote:

> My only input, as someone regularly subjected to TWiki via some  
> contract work I
> do, is that, in my own experience, I regret every painfully long  
> moment spent
> grappling with the thing. MW seems pretty cool.
>
> --myrrh
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



From joshua at keroes.com  Tue Mar 27 13:37:28 2007
From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:37:28 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
Message-ID: <c67b68200703271337l37b473achcc422e5aef307533@mail.gmail.com>

Copy that. We use TWiki at work. TWiki makes me a sad panda.

On 3/27/07, Myrrh Larsen <pdxperl at tuesdaystaken.com> wrote:
> My only input, as someone regularly subjected to TWiki via some contract work I
> do, is that, in my own experience, I regret every painfully long moment spent
> grappling with the thing. MW seems pretty cool.
>
> --myrrh
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

From bruce at drangle.com  Tue Mar 27 16:36:57 2007
From: bruce at drangle.com (Bruce J Keeler)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:36:57 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] More kwiki attacks
In-Reply-To: <20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org>
Message-ID: <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>

I figured I'd give this a quick try, but no luck so far.  I copied the 
existing pdx.pm.org site into a new virtual host and ran the upgrade 
procedure on it as mentioned in the UpgradingToKwiki2 link.  I took a 
brief look at it, but I'm at work, so I don't really have time to poke 
at this more.  Eric's welcome to prod at it too if he likes.

    http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki/

Currently it barfs the following:

Can't call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9.
 at lib/Spoon/Base.pm line 89
	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Can\'t call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kw...') called at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9
	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4



Bruce

Ingy dot Net wrote:
> NOTE: I wrote this a long time ago but it didn't get through. I've
> resubscribed to the list.
>
> ----
>
> Hi All,
>
> It's MrKwiki.
>
> Don't know if you know, but Kwiki's been heavily revamped in the last 3
> months. See kwiki.org.
>
> The trick is, everything new is on http://svn.kwiki.org/kwiki/trunk/ and
> not on CPAN (yet).
>
> See http://www.kwiki.org/?UpgradingToKwiki2 for upgrade instructions. It's
> totally simple.
>
> kwiki.org is currently using Kwiki::TypeKey for auth. It's a reasonable
> solution I think.
>
> Miyagawa wrote it, and while he suggests we implement and move to
> Kwiki::OpenID, the TypeKey stuff is basically the same thing and works now.
>
> Also there's a good group of people on #kwiki to help out.
>
> Cheers, Ingy
>
>
> On 01/03/07 09:51 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
>   
>> On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 09:45 -0800, Wil Cooley wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> A CAPTCHA might be the easiest way to maintain anonymity.
>>>       
>> Erhm, or OpenID.
>>
>> Wil
>> -- 
>> Wil Cooley <wcooley at nakedape.cc>
>> http://nakedape.cc
>>     
>
>
>
>   
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
>> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>
>   


From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Mar 27 17:12:46 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:12:46 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <c67b68200703271337l37b473achcc422e5aef307533@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<c67b68200703271337l37b473achcc422e5aef307533@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4609B2FE.5070100@pobox.com>

Joshua Keroes wrote:
> Copy that. We use TWiki at work. TWiki makes me a sad panda.

What version?  I'm using a TWiki 4.x right now and its pretty nice.  Earlier
versions sucked ass.


From joshua at keroes.com  Tue Mar 27 17:36:45 2007
From: joshua at keroes.com (Joshua Keroes)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:36:45 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <4609B2FE.5070100@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<c67b68200703271337l37b473achcc422e5aef307533@mail.gmail.com>
	<4609B2FE.5070100@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <c67b68200703271736k7ce4ba46v41eedebfc8a0338e@mail.gmail.com>

TWiki 4.0 (Dakar). To each their own :-)

On 3/27/07, Michael G Schwern <schwern at pobox.com> wrote:
> Joshua Keroes wrote:
> > Copy that. We use TWiki at work. TWiki makes me a sad panda.
>
> What version?  I'm using a TWiki 4.x right now and its pretty nice.  Earlier
> versions sucked ass.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 18:15:52 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:15:52 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <30AAF721-BC2F-4566-AF78-BE643BDD193A@ohsu.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<30AAF721-BC2F-4566-AF78-BE643BDD193A@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Thomas J Keller
# on Tuesday 27 March 2007 01:36 pm:

>I had the impression Eric was wondering if there wasn't another ?
>approach to "staying connected" other than a wiki. He mentioned ?
>Combust, I think. (?)
>.. I like wikis myself, but many people find them to much of a ?
>nuisance to mess with, so I haven't gotten get as much input using ?
>them as I would like.

I'm in that other crowd.  I haven't found a single web app that I like 
yet.  I like the idea of wiki, just hate using a browser as an editor.  
(Hmm, the verbs inside those nouns might hold a clue as to why...)

Possibly kwiki with decent security and spam prevention and a RESTful 
API would enable a thick-client mode.

But, then I wonder why we don't just use subversion.  (And, honestly, I 
don't like to edit much of anything outside of vim.)  If the layout 
engine could play nice with dotReader, a plugin might be able to serve 
as a client-side preview tool.  That, or I could get over my desire to 
preview and just write everything in unmarked text.

And, of course I would love to see *any* wiki *handle* conflict 
resolution.  After a few preview+scroll+scroll+edit+scroll+preview 
cycles, being told that someone else has changed the page since I 
started and not having any straightforward way to cherry-pick the 
changes is enough to make me just close the window and forget about it.

--Eric
-- 
Don't worry about what anybody else is going to do. The best way to
predict the future is to invent it.
--Alan Kay
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From mikeraz at patch.com  Tue Mar 27 18:47:36 2007
From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:47:36 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <4609B2FE.5070100@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<c67b68200703271337l37b473achcc422e5aef307533@mail.gmail.com>
	<4609B2FE.5070100@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20070328014736.GB5017@patch.com>

Michael G Schwern wrote:
> What version?  I'm using a TWiki 4.x right now and its pretty nice.  Earlier
> versions sucked ass.

gawd. I just did an install (Ingy take note) of both TWiki and Kwiki today.  
Or should I say reinstall? I'd set up both years ago.   Today's revisit was a
great surprise.

It seems like the only thing that didn't change in TWiki is the name, they've
improved the program so much I wouldn't know it was the same thing without the
name tie.


-- 
      Michael Rasmussen, Portland Oregon  
    Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
          http://www.patch.com/words/ 
  The fortune cookie says:
That gets us out of deciding how to spell Reg[eE]xp?|RE . . .
Of course, then we have to decide what ref $re returns...  :-)
             -- Larry Wall in <199710171838.LAA24968 at wall.org>


From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 20:11:17 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:11:17 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<30AAF721-BC2F-4566-AF78-BE643BDD193A@ohsu.edu>
	<200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0703272011v45e4a575h69942c928963337@mail.gmail.com>

well... why not have a svn driven flat text system? I havent dug with
the back end of any wiki so I dont know if the tend to be flat files
or some DB (well it sounds like MW is mysql). Though then this make me
just think that we could just svn pod up and have one of the pod2html
modules run as a hook script... tada!... not purty, but conflicts
would be resolved... and you could still use vim...

* ehh * just an idea.

On 3/27/07, Eric Wilhelm <scratchcomputing at gmail.com> wrote:
> # from Thomas J Keller
> # on Tuesday 27 March 2007 01:36 pm:
>
> >I had the impression Eric was wondering if there wasn't another
> >approach to "staying connected" other than a wiki. He mentioned
> >Combust, I think. (?)
> >.. I like wikis myself, but many people find them to much of a
> >nuisance to mess with, so I haven't gotten get as much input using
> >them as I would like.
>
> I'm in that other crowd.  I haven't found a single web app that I like
> yet.  I like the idea of wiki, just hate using a browser as an editor.
> (Hmm, the verbs inside those nouns might hold a clue as to why...)
>
> Possibly kwiki with decent security and spam prevention and a RESTful
> API would enable a thick-client mode.
>
> But, then I wonder why we don't just use subversion.  (And, honestly, I
> don't like to edit much of anything outside of vim.)  If the layout
> engine could play nice with dotReader, a plugin might be able to serve
> as a client-side preview tool.  That, or I could get over my desire to
> preview and just write everything in unmarked text.
>
> And, of course I would love to see *any* wiki *handle* conflict
> resolution.  After a few preview+scroll+scroll+edit+scroll+preview
> cycles, being told that someone else has changed the page since I
> started and not having any straightforward way to cherry-pick the
> changes is enough to make me just close the window and forget about it.
>
> --Eric
> --
> Don't worry about what anybody else is going to do. The best way to
> predict the future is to invent it.
> --Alan Kay
> ---------------------------------------------------
>     http://scratchcomputing.com
> ---------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Tue Mar 27 20:27:26 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:27:26 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Kwiki 2 error
In-Reply-To: <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org> <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
Message-ID: <20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:36:57PM -0800, Bruce J Keeler wrote:
> I figured I'd give this a quick try, but no luck so far.  I copied the 
> existing pdx.pm.org site into a new virtual host and ran the upgrade 
> procedure on it as mentioned in the UpgradingToKwiki2 link.  I took a 
> brief look at it, but I'm at work, so I don't really have time to poke 
> at this more.  Eric's welcome to prod at it too if he likes.
> 
>     http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki/
> 
> Currently it barfs the following:
> 
> Can't call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9.
>  at lib/Spoon/Base.pm line 89
> 	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Can\'t call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kw...') called at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9
> 	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4

I got exactly the same thing just a few minutes ago, and I was about to
paste the same error into an email to Ingy.  Since I already have the
kwikis set up,  it sure would be nice if I could just upgrade them.
The Typekey certification for spam blocking is a little surprising,
but if my users are OK with it then it is a good idea.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From randall at sonofhans.net  Tue Mar 27 22:44:35 2007
From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:44:35 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0703272011v45e4a575h69942c928963337@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<30AAF721-BC2F-4566-AF78-BE643BDD193A@ohsu.edu>
	<200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<85ddf48b0703272011v45e4a575h69942c928963337@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E6A86A46-41E3-40CB-B2B2-243A26724D93@sonofhans.net>

On Mar 27, 2007, at 8:11 PM, benh wrote:

> well... why not have a svn driven flat text system?

speaking from experience:  they're very attractive to vim-loving text  
weenies, and a horrendous PITFA to everyone else.  i built a simple  
system like this to manage the opensourcery web site.  we edit the  
page content in wiki markup, then run a Makefile target to deploy  
it.  when a page is requested it parses the wiki markup (sub-classing  
kwiki, thanks to ingy) and jams it into a Template::Toolkit wrapper.

it's fast, easy, and lets us track everything in subversion.  i love  
it.  at least a couple other people here do, too.  everyone else  
thinks it's the spawn of satan and can't wait to replace it with  
drupal. :)

editing text in anything other than vim seems like a criminal waste  
of time to me, but i'm in the distinct minority.  many smart people i  
like and respect have no patience for learning a Real editor, or even  
wiki markup -- they want point-and-click formatting controls in a  
browser-based UI.

a system that supported both of these modes would be sweet.  until  
then, us vim-lovers IMHO should suck it up and use what our co- 
workers like.

r


From schwern at pobox.com  Tue Mar 27 23:29:20 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:29:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] TWiki as substitute for kwiki?
In-Reply-To: <200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<30AAF721-BC2F-4566-AF78-BE643BDD193A@ohsu.edu>
	<200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <460A0B40.3040007@pobox.com>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> But, then I wonder why we don't just use subversion.  (And, honestly, I 
> don't like to edit much of anything outside of vim.)  If the layout 
> engine could play nice with dotReader, a plugin might be able to serve 
> as a client-side preview tool.  That, or I could get over my desire to 
> preview and just write everything in unmarked text.

There's the rub.  If you're editing content on your local filesystem and can't
see how its going to look rendered until AFTER you push it then you've got a
problem.  Its like doing your crossword with a pen.

To the "I hate editing in a web browser textarea" folks I say don't downgrade
the world you Luddites, GET BETTER TECHNOLOGY!
http://www.calmar.ws/firefox/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4125
http://mozex.mozdev.org/
http://olifante.blogs.com/covil/2006/04/firefox_editing.html

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 01:23:38 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:23:38 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <460A0B40.3040007@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A0B40.3040007@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Michael G Schwern
# on Tuesday 27 March 2007 11:29 pm:

>Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>> But, then I wonder why we don't just use subversion. ?(And,
>> honestly, I don't like to edit much of anything outside of vim.) ?If
>> the layout engine could play nice with dotReader, a plugin might be
>> able to serve as a client-side preview tool. ?That, or I could get
>> over my desire to preview and just write everything in unmarked
>> text.
>
>There's the rub. ?If you're editing content on your local filesystem
> and can't see how its going to look rendered until AFTER you push it
> then you've got a problem. ?Its like doing your crossword with a pen.

Why can't I see how it will look until after I upload it?  Does the 
server only run on unicorns?

  http://scratchcomputing.com/svn/misc/trunk/code/perl/bin/reloader2

On 3/27/07, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> ...and a RESTful API would enable a thick-client mode.

Thick-client software has some surmountable issues in deployment, but 
<textarea> and POST have insurmountable issues in richness of 
interface, responsiveness, etc.  That, and the cross-browser 
compatibility issues which are basically just deployment troubles 
percolating into runtime.  And how are we going to have real-time 
collaboration if everybody is unaware of other users currently editing 
the page?  How about: "hey joe, I see you are also editing this page, 
want to work together?"  I suppose you could cobble that together in 
javascript, but why not peer-to-peer?

>To the "I hate editing in a web browser textarea" folks I say don't
> downgrade the world you Luddites, GET BETTER TECHNOLOGY!

A browser is for browsing.

I do wish the kvim -> kpart thing had panned out though.
http://adam.blogs.bitscribe.net/2006/07/07/textarea-is-the-most-important-editor/

--Eric
-- 
"Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value."
--Murphy's Constant
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 01:37:23 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:37:23 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] collaborative editor demo
Message-ID: <200703280137.23966.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

Hi all,

I've been wanting to do a gobby or emacs collaborative editing demo for 
a while now.  I'm thinking a 10-15 minute bit at the beginning of the 
next meeting.  I will need a few volunteers to get there early enough 
to setup and test.  For emacs, you need X11 forwarding over ssh.  Gobby 
is:

  http://gobby.0x539.de/trac/

Others?  Does it need to be a bigger time-slot? (post-meeting or 
otherwise?)

--Eric
-- 
"It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object to realize that you are 
in a hurry."
--Ralph's Observation
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 01:46:02 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:46:02 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703271815.53101.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A0B40.3040007@pobox.com>
	<200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>> Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>>> But, then I wonder why we don't just use subversion.  (And,
>>> honestly, I don't like to edit much of anything outside of vim.)  If
>>> the layout engine could play nice with dotReader, a plugin might be
>>> able to serve as a client-side preview tool.  That, or I could get
>>> over my desire to preview and just write everything in unmarked
>>> text.
>> There's the rub.  If you're editing content on your local filesystem
>> and can't see how its going to look rendered until AFTER you push it
>> then you've got a problem.  Its like doing your crossword with a pen.
> 
> Why can't I see how it will look until after I upload it?  Does the 
> server only run on unicorns?
> 
>   http://scratchcomputing.com/svn/misc/trunk/code/perl/bin/reloader2

Didn't we start out with "wikis are too complicated to setup, let's use simple
files on a simple Subversion server" and now everyone has to install the server?!


>> To the "I hate editing in a web browser textarea" folks I say don't
>> downgrade the world you Luddites, GET BETTER TECHNOLOGY!
> 
> A browser is for browsing.

Yeah, and Perl is for extracting and reporting.

But, if you want to put everything in neat little boxes, then you really want
one of those plugins:  MozEx or "Its all text".  They both allow you to edit a
textarea using the external editor of your choice.  Ya know, an editor.  For
editing.

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 01:50:51 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:50:51 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] collaborative editor demo
In-Reply-To: <200703280137.23966.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <200703280137.23966.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <460A2C6B.1050609@pobox.com>

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've been wanting to do a gobby or emacs collaborative editing demo for 
> a while now.  I'm thinking a 10-15 minute bit at the beginning of the 
> next meeting.  I will need a few volunteers to get there early enough 
> to setup and test.  For emacs, you need X11 forwarding over ssh.  Gobby 
> is:
> 
>   http://gobby.0x539.de/trac/
> 
> Others?  Does it need to be a bigger time-slot? (post-meeting or 
> otherwise?)

<rant>
I have one question: am I stuck using your editor?

I have this complaint about SubEthaEdit.  Collaborative editing, great idea!
Oh, I have to use your shitty editor that's playing feature catch-up with
everyone else.  Bye now.

Why oh why can't we have the collaborative part without the editor part?
</rant>

From tex at off.org  Wed Mar 28 09:30:39 2007
From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:30:39 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] collaborative editor demo
In-Reply-To: <460A2C6B.1050609@pobox.com>
References: <200703280137.23966.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2C6B.1050609@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20070328163039.GQ30664@gblx.net>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:50:51AM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> <rant>
> I have one question: am I stuck using your editor?
> 
> I have this complaint about SubEthaEdit.  Collaborative editing, great idea!
> Oh, I have to use your shitty editor that's playing feature catch-up with
> everyone else.  Bye now.
> 
> Why oh why can't we have the collaborative part without the editor part?
> </rant>

	How do you propose that would work?

	Austin

From logan at orchardtech.com  Wed Mar 28 09:51:06 2007
From: logan at orchardtech.com (Logan Bell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:51:06 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] April Blurb
In-Reply-To: <200703271014.19854.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <200703271014.19854.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <e143efe50703280951n1345fc0dibdf568ee47e5e43d@mail.gmail.com>

I look forward to all of the topics and will be reserving my seat. Maybe
just touch on a high overview roadmap of Parrot's development
timeline/process, for those of us who rarely follow these things.

Look forward to this.

Logan

On 3/27/07, chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I agreed to talk about Parrot at the April meeting.
>
> What would you like to know?
>
> I can talk about its design, its internals, how to program PIR (its native
> language), building a language on top of it, and how interoperability
> works.
>
> What's most interesting to anyone who has an opinion?
>
> -- c
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>
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From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 09:51:20 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:51:20 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200703280951.21187.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Michael G Schwern
# on Wednesday 28 March 2007 01:46 am:

>> Why can't I see how it will look until after I upload it? ?Does the
>> server only run on unicorns?

>Didn't we start out with "wikis are too complicated to setup, let's
> use simple files on a simple Subversion server" and now everyone has
> to install the server?!

Well, that's not where *I* started.  You shouldn't need a webserver to 
render some markup into html.

--Eric
-- 
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."
--Albert Einstein
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From ben.hengst at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 10:00:00 2007
From: ben.hengst at gmail.com (benh)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:00:00 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] collaborative editor demo
In-Reply-To: <20070328163039.GQ30664@gblx.net>
References: <200703280137.23966.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2C6B.1050609@pobox.com>
	<20070328163039.GQ30664@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <85ddf48b0703281000i3404565y4219895a0e532b78@mail.gmail.com>

well I guess we could wait to have some msg standard.... something
like jabber with text location and file name?

On 3/28/07, Austin Schutz <tex at off.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:50:51AM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> > <rant>
> > I have one question: am I stuck using your editor?
> >
> > I have this complaint about SubEthaEdit.  Collaborative editing, great idea!
> > Oh, I have to use your shitty editor that's playing feature catch-up with
> > everyone else.  Bye now.
> >
> > Why oh why can't we have the collaborative part without the editor part?
> > </rant>
>
>         How do you propose that would work?
>
>         Austin
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>


-- 
benh~

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Wed Mar 28 10:05:26 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:05:26 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <200703280951.21187.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
	<200703280951.21187.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
Message-ID: <400B37BF-4017-4396-9166-362FFC40D2CD@ohsu.edu>

I thought we started with Eric's lament that the pdx-pm wiki was  
getting spammed, and perhaps more important, was not getting used.
So flexibility and ease of use, as well as aesthetics, became topics.  
It spiraled downhill from there, naturally, since there's no  
accounting for taste. (ask my wife).

Tom K

On Mar 28, 2007, at 9:51 AM, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> # from Michael G Schwern
> # on Wednesday 28 March 2007 01:46 am:
>
>>> Why can't I see how it will look until after I upload it?  Does the
>>> server only run on unicorns?
>
>> Didn't we start out with "wikis are too complicated to setup, let's
>> use simple files on a simple Subversion server" and now everyone has
>> to install the server?!
>
> Well, that's not where *I* started.  You shouldn't need a webserver to
> render some markup into html.
>
> --Eric
> -- 
> "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."
> --Albert Einstein
> ---------------------------------------------------
>     http://scratchcomputing.com
> ---------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Pdx-pm-list mailing list
> Pdx-pm-list at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list
>



From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 10:11:00 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:11:00 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Parrot talk
In-Reply-To: <e143efe50703280951n1345fc0dibdf568ee47e5e43d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200703271014.19854.chromatic@wgz.org>
	<e143efe50703280951n1345fc0dibdf568ee47e5e43d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200703281011.00524.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Logan Bell
# on Wednesday 28 March 2007 09:51 am:

>On 3/27/07, chromatic <chromatic at wgz.org> wrote:
>> I can talk about its design, its internals, how to program PIR (its
>> native language), building a language on top of it, and how
>> interoperability works.

>I look forward to all of the topics and will be reserving my seat.
> Maybe just touch on a high overview roadmap of Parrot's development
> timeline/process, for those of us who rarely follow these things.

I agree it should definitely include a bit of a "when we last saw our 
heroes..." catch-up/history lesson, possibly with a few clips of the 
best car chases, reaction-takes that go with the "oh! _You're_ the 
double-agent" reveals, and etc.  Of course, that can't go on too long, 
or those who have been playing the home game will get bored.

I'm interested in the design/internals/PIR, particularly in how Parrot 
is supporting diverse features of multiple languages.  I'm also curious 
about which parts of the perl5 guts are builtin to the parrot guts 
(e.g. the cross-platform exec() acrobatics?, threads?) and which parts 
are implemented in the language layer.

--Eric
-- 
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress
depends on the unreasonable man.
--George Bernard Shaw
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Wed Mar 28 10:16:57 2007
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:16:57 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] collaborative editor demo
In-Reply-To: <85ddf48b0703281000i3404565y4219895a0e532b78@mail.gmail.com>
	(ben.hengst@gmail.com's message of "Wed,
	28 Mar 2007 10:00:00 -0700")
References: <200703280137.23966.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<460A2C6B.1050609@pobox.com> <20070328163039.GQ30664@gblx.net>
	<85ddf48b0703281000i3404565y4219895a0e532b78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86veglp9ti.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "benh" == benh  <ben.hengst at gmail.com> writes:

benh> well I guess we could wait to have some msg standard.... something
benh> like jabber with text location and file name?

Unfortunately, the protocol that SubEthaEdit (which seems to do a pretty
darn good job) is apparently patented.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

From kellert at ohsu.edu  Wed Mar 28 10:18:35 2007
From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:18:35 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [TREC friends:] Call for Participation in INEX 2007
References: <460A6982.8050203@nist.gov>
Message-ID: <829BDD95-B225-422A-A453-C464016319BA@ohsu.edu>

Not entirely off topic - TJK

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Ellen Voorhees x3761" <ellen.voorhees at nist.gov>
> Date: March 28, 2007 6:17:38 AM PDT
> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <trecfr at nist.gov>
> Subject: [TREC friends:] Call for Participation in INEX 2007
> Reply-To: ellen.voorhees at nist.gov
>
>
>
> INEX 2007 - Call for participation
> http://inex.is.informatik.uni-duisburg.de/2007/
>
> INTRODUCTION
> Content-oriented XML retrieval has been receiving increasing interest
> fuelled by the widespread use of the eXtensible Markup Language  
> (XML), as a
> standard document format. The continuous growth in XML data sources is
> matched by increasing efforts in the development of XML retrieval  
> systems,
> which aim at exploiting the available structural information in  
> documents to
> implement a more focused retrieval strategy and return document  
> components,
> the so-called XML elements - instead of complete documents - in  
> response to
> a user query. Implementing this, more focused, retrieval paradigm  
> means that
> an XML retrieval system needs not only to find relevant information  
> in the
> XML documents, but also determine the appropriate level of  
> granularity to be
> returned to the user. In addition, the relevance of a retrieved  
> component is
> dependent on meeting both content and structural conditions.
>
> Evaluating the effectiveness of XML retrieval systems, hence,  
> requires a
> test collection where the relevance assessments are provided  
> according to a
> relevance criterion, which takes into account the imposed structural
> aspects. In 2002, the Initiative for the Evaluation of XML  
> Retrieval (INEX)
> started to address these issues. The aim of the INEX initiative is to
> establish an infrastructure and provide means, in the form of a  
> large XML
> test collection and appropriate scoring methods, for the evaluation of
> content-oriented XML retrieval systems.
>
> Evaluating retrieval effectiveness is typically done by using test
> collections assembled specifically for evaluating particular retrieval
> tasks. A test collection as such has been built as a result of many  
> rounds
> of INEX (annually since 2002).
>
> In INEX 2007, participating organizations will be able to compare the
> retrieval effectiveness of their XML retrieval systems and will  
> contribute
> to the construction of a new XML test collection based on the  
> Wikipedia. The
> test collection will also provide participants a means for future
> comparative and quantitative experiments.
>
> TASKS AND TRACKS
> In addition to the main general ad hoc retrieval task, INEX 2007  
> will have
> the following specific tasks:
> 1. Document mining track
> 2. Multimedia
> 3. Entity Ranking
>
> It will continue with the following tracks that started in previous  
> years:
>
>   1. Heterogeneous collection track
>   2. Interactive track
>
> Additional tracks are planned:
>
>   1. Book Searching
>   2. Document interlinking "Link the Wiki"
>
> RELEVANCE ASSESSMENTS
> Relevance assessments will be provided by the participating groups  
> using
> INEX's on-line assessment system. Each participating organization  
> will judge
> around 3 topics. Please note that assessments take about one-person  
> 2 days
> per topic! Participating groups will gain access to the completed  
> INEX test
> collection only after they have completed their assessment task. Upon
> completion of the relevance assessments, participants new to INEX  
> can have
> access to the previous years test collections.
>
> WORKSHOP AND PROCEEDINGS
> Participants will be able to present their approaches and final  
> results at
> the INEX 2006 workshop to be held in December in Dagstuhl. Revised  
> papers
> will be published in the INEX post-workshop final proceedings. As  
> for INEX
> 2004, 2005, and 2006, we expect the INEX final proceedings to be  
> published
> in the Springer's Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.
>
> ORGANIZERS
> Project Leaders: Andrew Trotman, Mounia Lalmas, Norbert Fuhr
> Contact person: Saadia Malik, Zoltan Szlavik
> Wikipedia document collection: Ludovic Denoyer
> Document exploration: Ralf Schenkel, Martin Theobald
> Topic format specification: Birger Larsen, Andrew Trotman
> Task description: Jaap Kamps, Charlie Clarkes
> Online relevance assessment tool: Benjamin Piwowarski
> Effectiveness measures: Gabriella Kazai, Benjamin Piwowarski, Jaap  
> Kamps,
>       Jovan Pehcevski, Stephen Robertson (Adviser), Paul Ogilvie
> (Statistical analysis)
> Document mining track: Ludovic Denoyer, Patrick Gallinari
> Multimedia track: Thijs Westerveld
> Entity search track: Arjen de Vries, Nick Craswell, Mounia Lalmas
> Link the Wiki track: Shlomo Geva, Andrew Trotman
> Book search track: Gabriella Kazai
>
>
>

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From marvin at rectangular.com  Wed Mar 28 11:01:58 2007
From: marvin at rectangular.com (Marvin Humphrey)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:01:58 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [TREC friends:] Call for Participation in INEX
	2007
In-Reply-To: <829BDD95-B225-422A-A453-C464016319BA@ohsu.edu>
References: <460A6982.8050203@nist.gov>
	<829BDD95-B225-422A-A453-C464016319BA@ohsu.edu>
Message-ID: <EE6A0F63-DDE8-46E6-9A99-8852EFAB5731@rectangular.com>


On Mar 28, 2007, at 10:18 AM, Thomas J Keller wrote:
>> In INEX 2007, participating organizations will be able to compare the
>> retrieval effectiveness of their XML retrieval systems and will  
>> contribute
>> to the construction of a new XML test collection based on the  
>> Wikipedia. The
>> test collection will also provide participants a means for future
>> comparative and quantitative experiments.

Great, but will I and my users be able to use this data to tune our  
IR systems without having to purchase individual licenses?

Marvin Humphrey
Rectangular Research
http://www.rectangular.com/



From chromatic at wgz.org  Wed Mar 28 11:10:35 2007
From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:10:35 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200703281110.35778.chromatic@wgz.org>

On Wednesday 28 March 2007 01:46, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> But, if you want to put everything in neat little boxes, then you really
> want one of those plugins: ?MozEx or "Its all text". ?They both allow you
> to edit a textarea using the external editor of your choice. ?Ya know, an
> editor. ?For editing.

I like MozEx, but I wish it really turned textareas into embedded Vim windows.  
I lament the two right clicks it takes to get an editor window with support 
for something beyond cursor keys.

-- c

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Mar 28 11:28:48 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:28:48 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Kwiki 2 error, more info
In-Reply-To: <20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org> <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
	<20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:36:57PM -0800, Bruce J Keeler wrote:
> I figured I'd give this a quick try, but no luck so far.  I copied the 
> existing pdx.pm.org site into a new virtual host and ran the upgrade 
> procedure on it as mentioned in the UpgradingToKwiki2 link.  I took a 
> brief look at it, but I'm at work, so I don't really have time to poke 
> at this more.  Eric's welcome to prod at it too if he likes.
> 
>     http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki/
> 
> Currently it barfs the following:
> 
> Can't call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9.
>  at lib/Spoon/Base.pm line 89
> 	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Can\'t call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kw...') called at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9
> 	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4

On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:27:26PM -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> I got exactly the same thing just a few minutes ago, and I was about to
> paste the same error into an email to Ingy.  Since I already have the
> kwikis set up,  it sure would be nice if I could just upgrade them.
> The Typekey certification for spam blocking is a little surprising,
> but if my users are OK with it then it is a good idea.

A blank new kwiki2 works.  So it may be the conversion process, or it
may be one of the plugins I'm using:

	Kwiki::Display
	Kwiki::Edit
	Kwiki::Theme::Basic
	Kwiki::Toolbar
	Kwiki::Status
	Kwiki::Widgets
	Kwiki::RecentChanges
	Kwiki::Archive::Rcs
	Kwiki::Revisions
	Kwiki::UserPreferences
	Kwiki::UserName
	Kwiki::Search
	Kwiki::Edit::RequireUserName
	Kwiki::Notify::Mail

	Kwiki::Htaccess
	Kwiki::Attachments
        Kwiki::PrinterFriendly

The last three are not in the list that a blank new kwiki makes. A

  kwiki -remove Kwiki::Htaccess

gives me the error:

  Can't locate object method "plugins_file" via package "Kwiki::Config" at /usr/local/kwiki/lib/Kwiki/Command/V1.pm line 125

I could debug all this stuff, but I think I will continue on with
TWiki 4.1 and let somebody else debug kwiki 2.0.  Sigh.  It would have
been nice if kwiki 2.0 "just worked";  perhaps in a few weeks it will.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From ingy at ingy.net  Wed Mar 28 12:59:42 2007
From: ingy at ingy.net (Ingy dot Net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:59:42 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Kwiki 2 error, more info
In-Reply-To: <20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org> <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
	<20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <20070328195942.GA19689@ttul.org>

Thanks for the report Keith.

I'll fix look into right after lunch.

On 28/03/07 11:28 -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:36:57PM -0800, Bruce J Keeler wrote:
> > I figured I'd give this a quick try, but no luck so far.  I copied the 
> > existing pdx.pm.org site into a new virtual host and ran the upgrade 
> > procedure on it as mentioned in the UpgradingToKwiki2 link.  I took a 
> > brief look at it, but I'm at work, so I don't really have time to poke 
> > at this more.  Eric's welcome to prod at it too if he likes.
> > 
> >     http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki/
> > 
> > Currently it barfs the following:
> > 
> > Can't call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9.
> >  at lib/Spoon/Base.pm line 89
> > 	Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Can\'t call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kw...') called at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9
> > 	Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4
> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:27:26PM -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> > I got exactly the same thing just a few minutes ago, and I was about to
> > paste the same error into an email to Ingy.  Since I already have the
> > kwikis set up,  it sure would be nice if I could just upgrade them.
> > The Typekey certification for spam blocking is a little surprising,
> > but if my users are OK with it then it is a good idea.
> 
> A blank new kwiki2 works.  So it may be the conversion process, or it
> may be one of the plugins I'm using:
> 
> 	Kwiki::Display
> 	Kwiki::Edit
> 	Kwiki::Theme::Basic
> 	Kwiki::Toolbar
> 	Kwiki::Status
> 	Kwiki::Widgets
> 	Kwiki::RecentChanges
> 	Kwiki::Archive::Rcs
> 	Kwiki::Revisions
> 	Kwiki::UserPreferences
> 	Kwiki::UserName
> 	Kwiki::Search
> 	Kwiki::Edit::RequireUserName
> 	Kwiki::Notify::Mail
> 
> 	Kwiki::Htaccess
> 	Kwiki::Attachments
>         Kwiki::PrinterFriendly
> 
> The last three are not in the list that a blank new kwiki makes. A
> 
>   kwiki -remove Kwiki::Htaccess
> 
> gives me the error:
> 
>   Can't locate object method "plugins_file" via package "Kwiki::Config" at /usr/local/kwiki/lib/Kwiki/Command/V1.pm line 125
> 
> I could debug all this stuff, but I think I will continue on with
> TWiki 4.1 and let somebody else debug kwiki 2.0.  Sigh.  It would have
> been nice if kwiki 2.0 "just worked";  perhaps in a few weeks it will.
> 
> Keith
> 
> -- 
> Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
> KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
> Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 16:17:46 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:17:46 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] collaborative editor demo
In-Reply-To: <20070328163039.GQ30664@gblx.net>
References: <200703280137.23966.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<460A2C6B.1050609@pobox.com> <20070328163039.GQ30664@gblx.net>
Message-ID: <460AF79A.403@pobox.com>

Austin Schutz wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:50:51AM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
>> <rant>
>> I have one question: am I stuck using your editor?
>>
>> I have this complaint about SubEthaEdit.  Collaborative editing, great idea!
>> Oh, I have to use your shitty editor that's playing feature catch-up with
>> everyone else.  Bye now.
>>
>> Why oh why can't we have the collaborative part without the editor part?
>> </rant>
> 
> 	How do you propose that would work?

I propose it and somebody makes it work. :)

Initially I was waving my hands in the general direction of Unix sockets on
the thinking that then any editor can treat the Unix socket like a file thus
encapsulating the collaborative magic so that you don't have to write a
plug-in for each editor.  That probably won't work because I doubt Unix
sockets are truly file like.  I'd imagine things like rewind and seek aren't
going to work so well.  But that's hand waving.

If you must go the plugin route, some sort of published protocol is the start
so other editors can join in the fun.  As Randall pointed out, SubEthaEdit is
particularly odious because its protocol is closed and/or patented.

It seems gobby has at least broken the collaboration part out into obby.

obby

obby is the foundation of Gobby, providing the whole framework to synchronise
changes within a text document to other participants of a session. New clients
and plugins for existing applications could be written using it. It is written
in C++ and C wrappers have yet to be created.

Which is a good start.

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 16:20:12 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:20:12 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <200703281110.35778.chromatic@wgz.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
	<200703281110.35778.chromatic@wgz.org>
Message-ID: <460AF82C.1090202@pobox.com>

chromatic wrote:
> On Wednesday 28 March 2007 01:46, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> 
>> But, if you want to put everything in neat little boxes, then you really
>> want one of those plugins:  MozEx or "Its all text".  They both allow you
>> to edit a textarea using the external editor of your choice.  Ya know, an
>> editor.  For editing.
> 
> I like MozEx, but I wish it really turned textareas into embedded Vim windows.  
> I lament the two right clicks it takes to get an editor window with support 
> for something beyond cursor keys.

I went with "Its all text" for that reason.  It puts a little "edit" button at
the bottom right corner of each window.  Its not nearly as configurable but
that little bit of convenience is nice.  It also flashes the textarea when it
updates from the external editor.

Also I think there's a way in MozEx to make it a hotkey rather than menu drill
down.


From keithl at kl-ic.com  Wed Mar 28 16:34:18 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:34:18 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <460AF82C.1090202@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
	<200703281110.35778.chromatic@wgz.org> <460AF82C.1090202@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20070328233418.GB23195@gate.kl-ic.com>


On Wednesday 28 March 2007 01:46, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> But, if you want to put everything in neat little boxes, then you really
> want one of those plugins:  MozEx or "Its all text".  They both allow you
> to edit a textarea using the external editor of your choice.  Ya know, an
> editor.  For editing.

chromatic wrote:
> I like MozEx, but I wish it really turned textareas into embedded Vim windows.  
> I lament the two right clicks it takes to get an editor window with support 
> for something beyond cursor keys.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 04:20:12PM -0700, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> I went with "Its all text" for that reason.  It puts a little "edit" button at
> the bottom right corner of each window.  Its not nearly as configurable but
> that little bit of convenience is nice.  It also flashes the textarea when it
> updates from the external editor.
> 
> Also I think there's a way in MozEx to make it a hotkey rather than menu drill
> down.

Noting Schwern's suggestions (thanks!), I enabled MozEx to edit TEXTAREA
boxes with function key F2, calling  "xterm -e vim %t" on my linux/firefox
browser.  Works OK.  Good to know about!

I could not get "Its all text" to work - the edit button comes up, but
left-click does nothing.  I have just "vim" in the editor preference
box.  What should go in that box?  How is this supposed to work?

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From schwern at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 16:47:24 2007
From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:47:24 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <20070328233418.GB23195@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<200703280123.38323.ewilhelm@cpan.org> <460A2B4A.9080801@pobox.com>
	<200703281110.35778.chromatic@wgz.org> <460AF82C.1090202@pobox.com>
	<20070328233418.GB23195@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <460AFE8C.5000006@pobox.com>

Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> Noting Schwern's suggestions (thanks!), I enabled MozEx to edit TEXTAREA
> boxes with function key F2, calling  "xterm -e vim %t" on my linux/firefox
> browser.  Works OK.  Good to know about!
> 
> I could not get "Its all text" to work - the edit button comes up, but
> left-click does nothing.  I have just "vim" in the editor preference
> box.  What should go in that box?  How is this supposed to work?

"Its all text" has the problem that its not accepting a command line but an
executable.  You can't do "xterm -e vim", it bitches that its not an
executable.  Also I believe you have to give it a full path.  You're probably
going to have to give it a stand-alone executable such as gvim or something.
Or maybe write a little shell script.

From scratchcomputing at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 17:07:26 2007
From: scratchcomputing at gmail.com (Eric Wilhelm)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:07:26 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] browser as kitchen sink?
In-Reply-To: <460AFE8C.5000006@pobox.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0703271601430.9028@titanium.sabren.com>
	<20070328233418.GB23195@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<460AFE8C.5000006@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200703281707.27175.ewilhelm@cpan.org>

# from Michael G Schwern
# on Wednesday 28 March 2007 04:47 pm:

>Also I believe you have to give it a full path. ?You're probably
>going to have to give it a stand-alone executable such as gvim or
> something. Or maybe write a little shell script.

Even then, it will have to be a script of 'gvim -f' because gvim forks 
by default (which commonly causes the caller to think the editor is 
done.)  Possibly enable-able in config files or something, but...  
Maybe just symlink your /etc/alternatives/editor to something that can 
grok whether it is on a tty or something.

I still wish that whole kvim+kpart thing had panned out.

--Eric
-- 
"Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana."
--Groucho Marx
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

From ingy at ingy.net  Wed Mar 28 21:03:46 2007
From: ingy at ingy.net (Ingy dot Net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:03:46 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Kwiki 2 error, more info
In-Reply-To: <20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <20070228165115.GB27339@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org> <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
	<20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <20070329040346.GC19689@ttul.org>

Keith,

I think I see what's going on here. I tried installing a new Kwiki instance
then switched to your plugin set and it worked perfectly.

Then I noticed you error message: Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4

I can tell the index.cgi is old, because those parameters (config*.*
etc) are no longer used. I forgot that `kwiki -update` doesn't
change index.cgi. I think that was so you can hack it and not lose
your changes.

Try removing index.cgi and rerun `kwiki -update`. If that works let me
know and I'll update the docs.

Sorry for the inconvenience. :\

Cheers, Ingy


On 28/03/07 11:28 -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:36:57PM -0800, Bruce J Keeler wrote:
> > I figured I'd give this a quick try, but no luck so far.  I copied the 
> > existing pdx.pm.org site into a new virtual host and ran the upgrade 
> > procedure on it as mentioned in the UpgradingToKwiki2 link.  I took a 
> > brief look at it, but I'm at work, so I don't really have time to poke 
> > at this more.  Eric's welcome to prod at it too if he likes.
> > 
> >     http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki/
> > 
> > Currently it barfs the following:
> > 
> > Can't call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9.
> >  at lib/Spoon/Base.pm line 89
> >     Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Can\'t call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kw...') called at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9
> >     Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4
> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:27:26PM -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> > I got exactly the same thing just a few minutes ago, and I was about to
> > paste the same error into an email to Ingy.  Since I already have the
> > kwikis set up,  it sure would be nice if I could just upgrade them.
> > The Typekey certification for spam blocking is a little surprising,
> > but if my users are OK with it then it is a good idea.
> 
> A blank new kwiki2 works.  So it may be the conversion process, or it
> may be one of the plugins I'm using:
> 
>       Kwiki::Display
>       Kwiki::Edit
>       Kwiki::Theme::Basic
>       Kwiki::Toolbar
>       Kwiki::Status
>       Kwiki::Widgets
>       Kwiki::RecentChanges
>       Kwiki::Archive::Rcs
>       Kwiki::Revisions
>       Kwiki::UserPreferences
>       Kwiki::UserName
>       Kwiki::Search
>       Kwiki::Edit::RequireUserName
>       Kwiki::Notify::Mail
> 
>       Kwiki::Htaccess
>       Kwiki::Attachments
>         Kwiki::PrinterFriendly
> 
> The last three are not in the list that a blank new kwiki makes. A
> 
>   kwiki -remove Kwiki::Htaccess
> 
> gives me the error:
> 
>   Can't locate object method "plugins_file" via package "Kwiki::Config" at /usr/local/kwiki/lib/Kwiki/Command/V1.pm line 125
> 
> I could debug all this stuff, but I think I will continue on with
> TWiki 4.1 and let somebody else debug kwiki 2.0.  Sigh.  It would have
> been nice if kwiki 2.0 "just worked";  perhaps in a few weeks it will.
> 
> Keith
> 
> -- 
> Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
> KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
> Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From ingy at ingy.net  Wed Mar 28 21:25:43 2007
From: ingy at ingy.net (Ingy dot Net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:25:43 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Kwiki 2 error, more info
In-Reply-To: <20070329040346.GC19689@ttul.org>
References: <200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>
	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org> <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
	<20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070329040346.GC19689@ttul.org>
Message-ID: <20070329042543.GD19689@ttul.org>

OK I'm having a bad day. Well not that bad actually, but there's now one
more thing you need to do. Run these commands:

    svn up
    rm index.cgi
    kwiki -update

(each from the appropriate directories)

I had to patch Kwiki to rewrite index.cgi if it was missing. It all seems
groovy now.

Cheers, Ingy

On 28/03/07 21:03 -0700, Ingy dot Net wrote:
> Keith,
> 
> I think I see what's going on here. I tried installing a new Kwiki instance
> then switched to your plugin set and it worked perfectly.
> 
> Then I noticed you error message: Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4
> 
> I can tell the index.cgi is old, because those parameters (config*.*
> etc) are no longer used. I forgot that `kwiki -update` doesn't
> change index.cgi. I think that was so you can hack it and not lose
> your changes.
> 
> Try removing index.cgi and rerun `kwiki -update`. If that works let me
> know and I'll update the docs.
> 
> Sorry for the inconvenience. :\
> 
> Cheers, Ingy
> 
> 
> On 28/03/07 11:28 -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 03:36:57PM -0800, Bruce J Keeler wrote:
> > > I figured I'd give this a quick try, but no luck so far.  I copied the 
> > > existing pdx.pm.org site into a new virtual host and ran the upgrade 
> > > procedure on it as mentioned in the UpgradingToKwiki2 link.  I took a 
> > > brief look at it, but I'm at work, so I don't really have time to poke 
> > > at this more.  Eric's welcome to prod at it too if he likes.
> > > 
> > >     http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki/
> > > 
> > > Currently it barfs the following:
> > > 
> > > Can't call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9.
> > >  at lib/Spoon/Base.pm line 89
> > >     Spoon::Base::__ANON__('Can\'t call method "registry" on an undefined value at lib/Kw...') called at lib/Kwiki.pm line 9
> > >     Kwiki::process('Kwiki=HASH(0x8c3d35c)', 'config*.*', '-plugins', 'plugins') called at /var/www/pdxpmtest/kwiki/index.cgi line 4
> > 
> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 08:27:26PM -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> > > I got exactly the same thing just a few minutes ago, and I was about to
> > > paste the same error into an email to Ingy.  Since I already have the
> > > kwikis set up,  it sure would be nice if I could just upgrade them.
> > > The Typekey certification for spam blocking is a little surprising,
> > > but if my users are OK with it then it is a good idea.
> > 
> > A blank new kwiki2 works.  So it may be the conversion process, or it
> > may be one of the plugins I'm using:
> > 
> >       Kwiki::Display
> >       Kwiki::Edit
> >       Kwiki::Theme::Basic
> >       Kwiki::Toolbar
> >       Kwiki::Status
> >       Kwiki::Widgets
> >       Kwiki::RecentChanges
> >       Kwiki::Archive::Rcs
> >       Kwiki::Revisions
> >       Kwiki::UserPreferences
> >       Kwiki::UserName
> >       Kwiki::Search
> >       Kwiki::Edit::RequireUserName
> >       Kwiki::Notify::Mail
> > 
> >       Kwiki::Htaccess
> >       Kwiki::Attachments
> >         Kwiki::PrinterFriendly
> > 
> > The last three are not in the list that a blank new kwiki makes. A
> > 
> >   kwiki -remove Kwiki::Htaccess
> > 
> > gives me the error:
> > 
> >   Can't locate object method "plugins_file" via package "Kwiki::Config" at /usr/local/kwiki/lib/Kwiki/Command/V1.pm line 125
> > 
> > I could debug all this stuff, but I think I will continue on with
> > TWiki 4.1 and let somebody else debug kwiki 2.0.  Sigh.  It would have
> > been nice if kwiki 2.0 "just worked";  perhaps in a few weeks it will.
> > 
> > Keith
> > 
> > -- 
> > Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
> > KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
> > Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From perl-pm at joshheumann.com  Wed Mar 28 22:41:08 2007
From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:41:08 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Dietrich Ayala at Portland Web Innovators April 4
Message-ID: <20070329054108.GB30475@joshheumann.com>

Dietrich Ayala, Firefox Engineer and co-author of 'Professional Open
Source Web Services' will be speaking in your city (not mine, sniff)
about what's coming in Firefox 3.

Meet the Deets:

Dietrich Ayala at Portland Web Innovators on April 4th
at 7pm at ISITE Design (115 NW First Avenue, Suite 500).  

Meeting page: http://www.pdxwi.com/events/4

J

From bruce at drangle.com  Thu Mar 29 11:55:34 2007
From: bruce at drangle.com (Bruce J Keeler)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:55:34 -0800
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Kwiki 2 error, more info
In-Reply-To: <20070329042543.GD19689@ttul.org>
References: <200702281035.44286.ewilhelm@cpan.org>	<45E5CD52.7080805@drangle.com>	<200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org>
	<4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>	<20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>	<20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>	<20070329040346.GC19689@ttul.org>
	<20070329042543.GD19689@ttul.org>
Message-ID: <460C0BA6.7060509@drangle.com>

Ingy dot Net wrote:
> OK I'm having a bad day. Well not that bad actually, but there's now one
> more thing you need to do. Run these commands:
>
>     svn up
>     rm index.cgi
>     kwiki -update
>
> (each from the appropriate directories)
>
> I had to patch Kwiki to rewrite index.cgi if it was missing. It all seems
> groovy now.
>
> Cheers, Ingy
>   
That worked.  Feel free to play about with 
http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki now.  We could cut over if it looks good.

From Ben.Marcotte at xerox.com  Thu Mar 29 13:03:41 2007
From: Ben.Marcotte at xerox.com (Marcotte, Ben)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:03:41 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] Kwiki 2 error, more info
In-Reply-To: <460C0BA6.7060509@drangle.com>
Message-ID: <D2F85D696B1B4848BC37A25922B8B66C03811093@usa7061ms02.na.xerox.net>

> That worked.  Feel free to play about with 
> http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki now.  We could cut over if 
> it looks good.

ImStillNotAFanOfCamelCapsLinkingInWikis. 

From keithl at kl-ic.com  Fri Mar 30 07:29:09 2007
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 07:29:09 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki2 at keithl.com, with typekey
In-Reply-To: <460C0BA6.7060509@drangle.com>
References: <200702281048.43916.ewilhelm@cpan.org>
	<1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org> <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
	<20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070329040346.GC19689@ttul.org> <20070329042543.GD19689@ttul.org>
	<460C0BA6.7060509@drangle.com>
Message-ID: <20070330142909.GB10676@gate.kl-ic.com>

> Ingy dot Net wrote:
...
> > I had to patch Kwiki to rewrite index.cgi if it was missing. It all seems
> > groovy now.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 10:55:34AM -0800, Bruce J Keeler wrote:
> That worked.  Feel free to play about with 
> http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki now.  We could cut over if it looks good.

After a little more noodling around, I have my six kwiki sites moved
to kwiki 2.  Including typekey authentication, which is pretty neat.
All that is wrong (discovered so far) is that the "changed by" strip
on the bottom of the page does not get a name. 

For the pdx.pm site, I believe the point of the kwiki2 conversion was
to add some authentication to stop the wikispam, perhaps with typekey.
I suspect that is not a complete blockage - the spammers can sign up
with typekey, too - but at least typekey.com can keep track of the 
bastards and aim missiles at them.

Go to typekey and sign up.  Then you can practice at kwiki.org, or at
my site.  

I /still/ like all the extra features that come with TWiki, and I'm
still thinking about converting, but perhaps Ingy and gang will add
a big heap of features to kwiki and I won't have to.  For now, the
default skin for TWiki is a little too crowded, and the simpler
skins are missing authentication, so TWiki has a ways to go, too.

I love lively competition.  Gentlebeings, start your engines!

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs

From ingy at ingy.net  Fri Mar 30 22:35:30 2007
From: ingy at ingy.net (Ingy dot Net)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 22:35:30 -0700
Subject: [Pdx-pm] kwiki2 at keithl.com, with typekey
In-Reply-To: <20070330142909.GB10676@gate.kl-ic.com>
References: <1172771144.19787.7.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<1172771512.19787.11.camel@willow.odshp.com>
	<20070327180713.GA16717@ttul.org> <4609AA99.9010506@drangle.com>
	<20070328032726.GB11720@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070328182847.GA22752@gate.kl-ic.com>
	<20070329040346.GC19689@ttul.org> <20070329042543.GD19689@ttul.org>
	<460C0BA6.7060509@drangle.com>
	<20070330142909.GB10676@gate.kl-ic.com>
Message-ID: <20070331053530.GB12301@ttul.org>

Put your feature requests in at a page like
http://kwiki.org/?NewFeatureRequests

Maybe people including me will hack them up. Or maybe they already exist
and just need some loving documention.

Cheers, Ingy

PS I have a lot of big features on deck for Kwiki that I think you'll
   like, but I'm not going to put myself on the hook by listing all my
   ideas here. :P


On 30/03/07 07:29 -0700, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> > Ingy dot Net wrote:
> ...
> > > I had to patch Kwiki to rewrite index.cgi if it was missing. It all seems
> > > groovy now.
> 
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 10:55:34AM -0800, Bruce J Keeler wrote:
> > That worked.  Feel free to play about with 
> > http://pdxpmtest.drangle.com/kwiki now.  We could cut over if it looks good.
> 
> After a little more noodling around, I have my six kwiki sites moved
> to kwiki 2.  Including typekey authentication, which is pretty neat.
> All that is wrong (discovered so far) is that the "changed by" strip
> on the bottom of the page does not get a name. 
> 
> For the pdx.pm site, I believe the point of the kwiki2 conversion was
> to add some authentication to stop the wikispam, perhaps with typekey.
> I suspect that is not a complete blockage - the spammers can sign up
> with typekey, too - but at least typekey.com can keep track of the 
> bastards and aim missiles at them.
> 
> Go to typekey and sign up.  Then you can practice at kwiki.org, or at
> my site.  
> 
> I /still/ like all the extra features that come with TWiki, and I'm
> still thinking about converting, but perhaps Ingy and gang will add
> a big heap of features to kwiki and I won't have to.  For now, the
> default skin for TWiki is a little too crowded, and the simpler
> skins are missing authentication, so TWiki has a ways to go, too.
> 
> I love lively competition.  Gentlebeings, start your engines!
> 
> Keith
> 
> -- 
> Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
> KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
> Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs