From jkeroes at eli.net Thu Jan 1 22:05:49 2004 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Still hiring... Message-ID: PDX.pm is still looking for a friendly person with organizational skills to manage monthly meetings. All resumes[1] will be looked at. All suggestions will be weighed. All candidates will be considered. Are you considering the position? You must be able to perform the following monthly duties: + determining a topic or speaker for the monthly meeting + finding a place for said meeting + reminding the meeting place of said meeting + reminding the usergroup of said meeting + having the meeting For bonus points, you may: + take field trips... to fields! + take field trips... to bars! + take field trips... to geek-friendly places! + do the t-shirt thing! + be creative and do Creative Stuff! For performing those duties, you may look forward to: + meeting clever, fascinating people + earning the group's appreciation + adding a line to your resume - always handy these days! Thanks, Joshua [1] Resume? Ha, we don't need no steenkin' resumes! From jkeroes at eli.net Sat Jan 3 19:54:25 2004 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] A leader has been found! Message-ID: I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know that there is a new leader for the Portland Perl Mongers. He's friendlier than Mr. Rogers. He's smarter than our president. Most importantly: he possesses the drive to run this outfit and run it well. Our new dynamo is none other than... Josh Heumann! I have the utmost certainty that Josh will be a highly effective leader. Those who know him will agree. Those who don't know him will agree after they've met him. :-) Congratulations, Josh, and thank-you. -Joshua From curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 20:02:22 2004 From: curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] A leader has been found! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040104020222.19562.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joshua Keroes wrote: > He's friendlier than Mr. Rogers. Given that Mr. Rogers is dead, he's not terribly friendly any more. > He's smarter than our president. So is Mr. Rogers, despite being dead. > Most importantly: he possesses the drive to run this outfit and run > it well. The king is dead. Long live the king! > Our new dynamo is none other than... > Josh Heumann! Tag. You're it. Thanks Josh! (and Joshua). This is great news :) Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/indexdecency.htm Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Sat Jan 3 20:48:45 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] A leader has been found! In-Reply-To: <20040104020222.19562.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040104020222.19562.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33691.130.94.161.146.1073184525.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Thank you, thank you. Being more alive than Mr. Rogers is a valuable skill to have, and being smarter than our president is pretty much the same thing. As I gear up for taking over the Perliest group ever, I want to hear from you on or off list. I'm writing a little survey for people to take about what they want and who they are. I'm also working on getting our first meeting of 2004 together, which will be a week from Wednesday, on January 14th. Location and other petty details to follow. And many thanks to Joshua Keroes, who bravely led the group for so long. Viva le Perl! Josh Heumann __________________________ fall pictures and some b+w artsyness. new photos up @ http://www.joshheumann.com From perl at sonofhans.net Sat Jan 3 22:42:30 2004 From: perl at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] A leader has been found! In-Reply-To: <33691.130.94.161.146.1073184525.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <20040104020222.19562.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> <33691.130.94.161.146.1073184525.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <67854DFF-3E70-11D8-94DF-000A95D9E32C@sonofhans.net> On Jan 3, 2004, at 18:48, Josh Heumann wrote: > Viva le Perl! I, for one, welcome our new Jewish overlords. :) Josh and I have worked together a lot in the last 6 months, and I think he'll do a great job. Randall From raanders at acm.org Thu Jan 8 07:17:54 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] New DA question - sub return'd values Message-ID: Sometimes I feel like Red (from "That 70's Show) is talking to me! When I use 'return N;' -- where N is a number -- in a sub(routine) is N returned as as a number or a string? I ask because I'm having some issues using the values in a (faked) switch construct. $_ = typeofcust($username, $password); CASE: { /1/ and do { ... ; last CASE; }; /2/ and do { ... ; last CASE; }; /3/ and do { ... ; last CASE; } blow_chunks; } If typeofcust() returns a value from 1, 2 or 3 is $_ treated as a string or number by the match operation? Once again - TIA, Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com Thu Jan 8 10:13:48 2004 From: curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] New DA question - sub return'd values In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040108161348.90866.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roderick A. Anderson" wrote: > Sometimes I feel like Red (from "That 70's Show) is talking to me! > > When I use 'return N;' -- where N is a number -- in a sub(routine) is > N > returned as as a number or a string? Neither. In Perl, typing is based around data structures, not data types. When you return something in Perl, you're returning one of three things: nothing (a bare return), a scalar, or a list. Assuming you return a scalar, it will behave either as a number or a string, depending upon whether or not you wish to use it as a number or a string. Here's what happens if you return a scalar. sub foo { # do a bunch of stuff return $x; } my $result = foo(4) + 3; For the above snippet, the return value of foo() will be converted to a number. If it's undef (or nothing), it will convert it to zero and $result will be set to four. If you have warnings enabled, you'll be warned about "use of uninitialized value in addition". If the return value is really a number, $result will be set to that number plus 3. If the return value is a string, it's a bit odd. Perl will try and convert the string to a number and then add three. Most strings will be converted to the number zero and get added to three. You'll most like get a warning similar to "argument 'bar' isn't numeric in addition". If, however, the string begins with a number, you'll get the same warning, but Perl will use the scalar as if it's that number and then add three to it. (note that none of these operations change the perceived value of the scalar, though, despite what Perl does). sub foo { return "3apples"; } my $apples = foo(); print $apples + 2; # prints 5 and issues a warning if enabled > I ask because I'm having some issues using the values in a (faked) > switch > construct. > > $_ = typeofcust($username, $password); > > CASE: { > > /1/ and do { ... ; > last CASE; }; > /2/ and do { ... ; > last CASE; }; > /3/ and do { ... ; > last CASE; } > blow_chunks; > > } > > If typeofcust() returns a value from 1, 2 or 3 is $_ treated as a > string > or number by the match operation? In this case, because you're using a regular expression, the $_ is automatically treated as a string (regexes do not operate on numbers). I might, however, add a "local" statement to the assignment: local $_ = typeofcust($username, $password); If you don't do that and any other place in your code is using $_, you just altered their value. That can be a nasty bug to track down. Also, check out Switch.pm (http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Switch-2.09/Switch.pm). It's more robust: use Switch; switch ($val) { case 1 { print "number 1" } case "a" { print "string a" } case [1..10,42] { print "number in list" } case (@array) { print "number in list" } case /\w+/ { print "pattern" } case qr/\w+/ { print "pattern" } case (%hash) { print "entry in hash" } case (\%hash) { print "entry in hash" } case (\&sub) { print "arg to subroutine" } else { print "previous case not true" } } Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/indexdecency.htm Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From raanders at acm.org Thu Jan 8 12:12:42 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] New DA question - sub return'd values In-Reply-To: <20040108161348.90866.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Ovid wrote: Got all the above. And basically understood it already. > > I ask because I'm having some issues using the values in a (faked) > > switch > > construct. > > > > $_ = typeofcust($username, $password); > > > > CASE: { > > > > /1/ and do { ... ; > > last CASE; }; > > /2/ and do { ... ; > > last CASE; }; > > /3/ and do { ... ; > > last CASE; } > > blow_chunks; > > > > } > > > > If typeofcust() returns a value from 1, 2 or 3 is $_ treated as a > > string > > or number by the match operation? > In this case, because you're using a regular expression, the $_ is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Damn I should have known/remembered this. > automatically treated as a string (regexes do not operate on numbers). > I might, however, add a "local" statement to the assignment: > > local $_ = typeofcust($username, $password); This is OK inside of the main context? > If you don't do that and any other place in your code is using $_, you > just altered their value. That can be a nasty bug to track down. > > Also, check out Switch.pm > (http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Switch-2.09/Switch.pm). It's more > robust: Geez. I never think of CPAN when I've seen good code ie. from an animal book author. But I guess I can accept code from Damian. Well this should clean up my act a bit. Thanks > use Switch; > > switch ($val) { > case 1 { print "number 1" } > case "a" { print "string a" } > case [1..10,42] { print "number in list" } > case (@array) { print "number in list" } > case /\w+/ { print "pattern" } > case qr/\w+/ { print "pattern" } > case (%hash) { print "entry in hash" } > case (\%hash) { print "entry in hash" } > case (\&sub) { print "arg to subroutine" } > else { print "previous case not true" } > } Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com Thu Jan 8 12:33:22 2004 From: curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] New DA question - sub return'd values In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040108183322.44530.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roderick A. Anderson" wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Ovid wrote: > > Got all the above. And basically understood it already. I hope I didn't sound too pedantic. I often don't know the skill level of the person I am responding to and I try to be cognizant of the fact that others might be reading. > > I might, however, add a "local" statement to the assignment: > > > > local $_ = typeofcust($username, $password); > > This is OK inside of the main context? I assume you're asking if this is OK inside of the main namespace? Well, that depends. I can't think of any situations where "local $_" can hurt you, but I can think of plenty of ways where leaving off the "local" will make life miserable. Also, consider this: package main; while (<>) { zero() if (/foo/) { # will never execute } } sub zero { # do stuff $_ = 0; print "Life now becomes unpleasant"; } In that example, we're still in the main namespace (which I think was your question), but we've stomped on $_ in &main::zero and the regex match in the while loop will never succeed. From your email, it looks like you understand this issue, but just in case, I thought I would clarify that. The reason why that simplistic example is important to me is because I often build small utility scripts and as they grow, I pull out large chunks into subroutines. If I've already predeclared any use of $_ as local, I don't have to worry about going back and fixing it when the code gets moved. Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/indexdecency.htm Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From raanders at acm.org Thu Jan 8 13:09:46 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] New DA question - sub return'd values In-Reply-To: <20040108183322.44530.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Ovid wrote: > --- "Roderick A. Anderson" wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Ovid wrote: > > > > Got all the above. And basically understood it already. > > I hope I didn't sound too pedantic. I often don't know the skill level > of the person I am responding to and I try to be cognizant of the fact > that others might be reading. No problem here. I try to ask my questions so it sounds like I know less than I do (or think I do :-). I really like your replies. In fact I'm saving them in case I have to explain to someone else. I'm the CPF (Certified Perl Fanatic) here and about so get questions sometimes. > I assume you're asking if this is OK inside of the main namespace? Yes. Namespace. I've been doing a little too much work on Linux Vservers, PostgreSQL, and XML. They all get mixed together, even this early in the morning. > In that example, we're still in the main namespace (which I think was > your question), but we've stomped on $_ in &main::zero and the regex > match in the while loop will never succeed. From your email, it looks > like you understand this issue, but just in case, I thought I would > clarify that. Thanks. Since before my current job and these recent projects I only programmed sporadicly and mostly little, simple, scripts reenforcement is GOOD. > The reason why that simplistic example is important to me is because I > often build small utility scripts and as they grow, I pull out large > chunks into subroutines. I'm getting there quickly. I'm copy and pasting the same code in many scripts (CGI and utility). Once it get it stabilized I'm going to do the same. > If I've already predeclared any use of $_ as local, I don't have to > worry about going back and fixing it when the code gets moved. A very good idea. I think I got bit by this a couple of times and played hell sorting it out. Part of the reason I'm using a hash to hold global variables is if I step on them it truly is my fault. Best, Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Thu Jan 8 14:22:42 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] My Freaky Neighbor Message-ID: <32880.130.94.161.146.1073593362.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> I have a Freaky Neighbor. We moved into our house (my three, now four roommates and I) about six months ago, and were told that the landlords had worked on the house for nine months and never seen him. A few months later, I was parking in front of his house, and he was sitting on the porch in a lawn chair. His was the kind of porch that was about big enough for a lawn chair and still have room for the screen door to open. I said hi, in my most friendly voice, and got some sort of short, low reply. I retreated to my house defeated. This was clearly a neighbor who didn't want any neighborly relationship. Now, I'm no Ned Flanders or Wilson from Home Improvement, but I like to know the people I'm living by. A few days later, we noticed that his computer was right by a window that faced our house, and by the light of a desk lamp, we could see him in front of his computer at night, as well as having a good view of the desk. Prominently featured, sitting there, was a Perl book. It was Simon Cozens' Wrox book ( http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=2-1861003145-0 ). A few days later, we realized that there were a few more Perl books there as well. My Freaky Neighbor, it would seem, is a Perl programmer. My question to you, the citizens of pdx.pm, is this: How do we get someone like my Freaky Neighbor to be more involved in the group? DISCLAIMER: if you are my Freaky Neighbor, my most humble apologies. If I could get to know you a little better, I'm sure you'd be less freaky. Josh __________________________ fall pictures and some b+w artsyness. new photos up @ http://www.joshheumann.com From jkeroes at eli.net Thu Jan 8 14:32:39 2004 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] My Freaky Neighbor In-Reply-To: <32880.130.94.161.146.1073593362.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <32880.130.94.161.146.1073593362.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh Heumann wrote: > I have a Freaky Neighbor. [...] My Freaky Neighbor, it would seem, is > a Perl programmer. > > My question to you, the citizens of pdx.pm, is this: How do we get > someone like my Freaky Neighbor to be more involved in the group? Lure him out with pizza and beer on the end of a fishing pole. When he bites, just reel him in. Heck, it always works in the cartoons. :-) J From darthsmily at verizon.net Thu Jan 8 14:39:49 2004 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] My Freaky Neighbor In-Reply-To: References: <32880.130.94.161.146.1073593362.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <3FFDC015.5000009@verizon.net> Hell, it would work on me. Joshua Keroes wrote: > > On Jan 8, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh Heumann wrote: > >> I have a Freaky Neighbor. [...] My Freaky Neighbor, it would seem, >> is a Perl programmer. >> >> My question to you, the citizens of pdx.pm, is this: How do we get >> someone like my Freaky Neighbor to be more involved in the group? > > > Lure him out with pizza and beer on the end of a fishing pole. When he > bites, just reel him in. > > Heck, it always works in the cartoons. :-) > > J > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > From mikeraz at patch.com Thu Jan 8 14:47:52 2004 From: mikeraz at patch.com (Michael Rasmussen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] My Freaky Neighbor In-Reply-To: <32880.130.94.161.146.1073593362.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <32880.130.94.161.146.1073593362.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <20040108204752.GA25104@patch.com> On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 01:22:42PM -0700, Josh Heumann wrote: > My question to you, the citizens of pdx.pm, is this: How do we get someone > like my Freaky Neighbor to be more involved in the group? Stuffed camels on the porch? Perl banners? "Perl Free or Die" sign in the window? -- Michael Rasmussen aka mikeraz Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity http://www.patch.com/ http://meme.patch.com/ Get Fixed: http://www.dampfixie.org The fortune cookie says: What I tell you three times is true. -- Lewis Carroll From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Thu Jan 8 16:15:45 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] My Freaky Neighbor In-Reply-To: <20040108204752.GA25104@patch.com> References: <32880.130.94.161.146.1073593362.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040108204752.GA25104@patch.com> Message-ID: <33655.130.94.161.146.1073600145.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> >> My question to you, the citizens of pdx.pm, is this: How do we get >> someone like my Freaky Neighbor to be more involved in the group? > > Stuffed camels on the porch? Perl banners? "Perl Free or Die" sign in > the window? -- These are all good ways for me to get to meet him, but what do you think would get him involved? He just might have the most l33t3 regular expression skills ever, or be an OO guru, but we (Perlers at large) will never know if he doesn't come and hang out. Josh __________________________ fall pictures and some b+w artsyness. new photos up @ http://www.joshheumann.com From raanders at acm.org Thu Jan 8 18:28:28 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] My Freaky Neighbor In-Reply-To: <33655.130.94.161.146.1073600145.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Josh Heumann wrote: > These are all good ways for me to get to meet him, but what do you think > would get him involved? If after talking/meeting you can't entice him with drugs, liquor, or women; how about just asking him to join the list? Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From merlyn at stonehenge.com Thu Jan 8 18:31:03 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] My Freaky Neighbor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86brpeufnf.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Roderick" == Roderick A Anderson writes: Roderick> If after talking/meeting you can't entice him with drugs, liquor, or Roderick> women; how about just asking him to join the list? And make sure you don't tell him where the archives are. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Thu Jan 8 20:09:45 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting Message-ID: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> The January meeting is upon us! And with a new year, comes the excitement of teaching Perl anew! Randal Schwartz and Tom Phoenix will go over how to teach Learning Perl to new people. If you've never seen their show before, see it now. Also, in a new feature: Live Refactoring! The last part of the meeting (well, before the beer) will be dedicated to anyone who has some code to refactor. As we all spend tons of time refactoring and there is, well, more than one way to do it, let's all refactor together! This will be a help to those who might be unsure of how refactoring works, and various techniques can come together. And possibly most importantly: your comments. As the new year blah blah blah, let me know what you like and don't like about the Perlmongers, or, better yet, your ideas for making us the biggest Perl powerhouse in Oregon. What: January Meeting When: January 14th, 2004 Who: Randal Schwartz and Tom Phoenix Who Else: You! And maybe my Freaky Neighbor! Where: TBA (does anyone have any suggestions?) Why: Because you love Perl, duh. Josh __________________________ fall pictures and some b+w artsyness. new photos up @ http://www.joshheumann.com From curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com Mon Jan 12 18:08:58 2004 From: curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> --- Josh Heumann wrote: > What: January Meeting > When: January 14th, 2004 > Who: Randal Schwartz and Tom Phoenix > Who Else: You! And maybe my Freaky Neighbor! > Where: TBA (does anyone have any suggestions?) > Why: Because you love Perl, duh. The January meeting sounds great, but where is TBA? Seriously, do we have any ideas on this yet? Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/indexdecency.htm Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Mon Jan 12 18:26:58 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> > The January meeting sounds great, but where is TBA? > > Seriously, do we have any ideas on this yet? Austin Shultz recommended Fireside Lounge (google revealed this: http://www.jiwire.com/wi-fi-wireless-hotspot-portland-oregon-or-us-fireside-coffee-lodge-46704.htm). I have to talk to the owner tonight, but sounds like a go. They require that people actually buy things, but they seem pretty up for it. If not, Joshua Keroes has heroically offered his recently-accessible home once again. Josh __________________________ People photos and a stroll around Vancouver: photos @ http://www.joshheumann.com From merlyn at stonehenge.com Mon Jan 12 18:28:03 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <861xq4u1yn.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Ovid" == Ovid writes: Ovid> --- Josh Heumann wrote: >> What: January Meeting >> When: January 14th, 2004 >> Who: Randal Schwartz and Tom Phoenix >> Who Else: You! And maybe my Freaky Neighbor! >> Where: TBA (does anyone have any suggestions?) >> Why: Because you love Perl, duh. Ovid> The January meeting sounds great, but where is TBA? Tom's Basement Annex? :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From merlyn at stonehenge.com Mon Jan 12 19:38:10 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Josh" == Josh Heumann writes: >> The January meeting sounds great, but where is TBA? >> >> Seriously, do we have any ideas on this yet? Josh> Austin Shultz recommended Fireside Lounge (google revealed this: Josh> http://www.jiwire.com/wi-fi-wireless-hotspot-portland-oregon-or-us-fireside-coffee-lodge-46704.htm). Josh> I have to talk to the owner tonight, but sounds like a go. They require Josh> that people actually buy things, but they seem pretty up for it. I won't go there. Last time I was there, I got into a tiff with the owner about signage. There's a sign displaying the VISA/MasterCard logo and a notice that says "$0.50 surcharge for use of bank cards". Well, they aren't allowed to do that by agreement with MC/Visa via their bank. When I confronted the owner, it was only after a few rounds of probing that she finally clarified that they only charged the fee if it was a *debit* card, not all bank cards. I said the sign's not clear to me, and I couldn't be sure if she wasn't charging the fee for all cards, and not just debit cards. Keywords: "blatent ripoff if you don't know to ask". After the challenge, she asked me not to return, and I will gladly take my business elsewhere. So, please pick a different spot. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Mon Jan 12 19:54:04 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> > I won't go there. Last time I was there, I got into a tiff with the > owner about signage. [snip] > So, please pick a different spot. Rule #20 for leading a meeting: don't offend the speaker (too much). Okay, the Lodge is out this time. Any other suggestions? Josh __________________________ People photos and a stroll around Vancouver: photos @ http://www.joshheumann.com From merlyn at stonehenge.com Mon Jan 12 20:38:37 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Josh" == Josh Heumann writes: Josh> Rule #20 for leading a meeting: don't offend the speaker (too much). Josh> Okay, the Lodge is out this time. It doesn't need wireless for my presentation, but we might want to slowly build up some relationship with a location that is presentation-screen friendly as well as wireless-wired. How about Ground Kontrol? We'd only have to ignore the beep-bling-bloops in the background! :) Has anyone been to Heaven Cafe at SW 10th and Stark? They supposedly have wifi. Or the Rose and Raindrop at 532 SE Grand is also on that list. Tiny's Stumptown coffee at 1412 SE 12th Portland Coffee at SE 25th and Belmont And there's the Urban Grind. Again. Billy Reed's Restaurant and Bar, 2808 NE MLK. Common Grounds at 4321 SE Hawthorne Bar of the gods 4801 SE Hawthorne (this sounds good!) Shanghai Tunnel Bar at 211 SW Ankeny Try some of those. I got those from CNET's wifi search engine.... -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From wcooley at nakedape.cc Mon Jan 12 20:45:41 2004 From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <1073961941.4008.109.camel@denk.nakedape.priv> On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 18:38, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > Has anyone been to Heaven Cafe at SW 10th and Stark? They supposedly > have wifi. Just read on the PTP list today that Heaven moved to 12th & Jefferson where the culinary institute was. I think the WiFi's back up. Wil -- Wil Cooley wcooley@nakedape.cc Naked Ape Consulting http://nakedape.cc * * * * * * Linux Consulting in Portland, Oregon * * * * * * * Naked Ape Consulting http://nakedape.cc * * Naked Ape Business Server http://nakedape.cc/r/smb * * Easy, reliable solutions for small businesses * -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20040112/29928ac9/attachment.bin From jkeroes at eli.net Mon Jan 12 20:50:30 2004 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <40070197-4573-11D8-83C9-000A95C466EC@eli.net> On Jan 12, 2004, at 6:38 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Josh" == Josh Heumann writes: > > Josh> Rule #20 for leading a meeting: don't offend the speaker (too > much). > Josh> Okay, the Lodge is out this time. > > It doesn't need wireless for my presentation, but we might want to > slowly > build up some relationship with a location that is presentation-screen > friendly as well as wireless-wired. > > How about Ground Kontrol? We'd only have to ignore the > beep-bling-bloops in the background! :) Hmm... beer and videogames; not too bad. If they have chairs they're a contender. > Has anyone been to Heaven Cafe at SW 10th and Stark? They supposedly > have wifi. Too small. Not well suited to lectures. > Or the Rose and Raindrop at 532 SE Grand is also on that list. Who remembers their Green Room? If they don't charge for its use, this is a contender. > Tiny's Stumptown coffee at 1412 SE 12th Never been. > Portland Coffee at SE 25th and Belmont Is that Stumptown? > And there's the Urban Grind. Again. Once they get a liquor license, they might consider us again. We don't make then enough money for them to stay open after hours just for us. > Billy Reed's Restaurant and Bar, 2808 NE MLK. It's on the noisy side but if they have a backroom I think this is probably the best option. > Common Grounds at 4321 SE Hawthorne Nice place, should be big enough > Bar of the gods 4801 SE Hawthorne (this sounds good!) too small, too dark, and we're not cool enough. > Shanghai Tunnel Bar at 211 SW Ankeny see above > Try some of those. I got those from CNET's wifi search engine.... > -J From mschuette at dslnorthwest.net Mon Jan 12 21:25:56 2004 From: mschuette at dslnorthwest.net (Marc Schuette) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <40036544.8070107@dslnorthwest.net> lurker here thoughts about... It's A Beautiful Pizza 3341 SE Belmont Portland, OR (503) 233-5444 large basement room with a protection tv and screen Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>>"Josh" == Josh Heumann writes: > > > Josh> Rule #20 for leading a meeting: don't offend the speaker (too much). > Josh> Okay, the Lodge is out this time. > > It doesn't need wireless for my presentation, but we might want to slowly > build up some relationship with a location that is presentation-screen > friendly as well as wireless-wired. > > How about Ground Kontrol? We'd only have to ignore the > beep-bling-bloops in the background! :) > > Has anyone been to Heaven Cafe at SW 10th and Stark? They supposedly > have wifi. > > Or the Rose and Raindrop at 532 SE Grand is also on that list. > > Tiny's Stumptown coffee at 1412 SE 12th > > Portland Coffee at SE 25th and Belmont > > And there's the Urban Grind. Again. > > Billy Reed's Restaurant and Bar, 2808 NE MLK. > > Common Grounds at 4321 SE Hawthorne > > Bar of the gods 4801 SE Hawthorne (this sounds good!) > > Shanghai Tunnel Bar at 211 SW Ankeny > > Try some of those. I got those from CNET's wifi search engine.... > > From mschuette at dslnorthwest.net Mon Jan 12 21:28:48 2004 From: mschuette at dslnorthwest.net (Marc Schuette) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <40036544.8070107@dslnorthwest.net> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <40036544.8070107@dslnorthwest.net> Message-ID: <400365F0.4060802@dslnorthwest.net> of course i was trying to say PROJECTION tv Marc Schuette wrote: > lurker here > > thoughts about... > > It's A Beautiful Pizza > 3341 SE Belmont > Portland, OR > (503) 233-5444 > > large basement room with a protection tv and screen > > Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>>>> "Josh" == Josh Heumann writes: >> >> >> >> Josh> Rule #20 for leading a meeting: don't offend the speaker (too >> much). Josh> Okay, the Lodge is out this time. >> >> It doesn't need wireless for my presentation, but we might want to slowly >> build up some relationship with a location that is presentation-screen >> friendly as well as wireless-wired. >> >> How about Ground Kontrol? We'd only have to ignore the >> beep-bling-bloops in the background! :) >> >> Has anyone been to Heaven Cafe at SW 10th and Stark? They supposedly >> have wifi. >> >> Or the Rose and Raindrop at 532 SE Grand is also on that list. >> >> Tiny's Stumptown coffee at 1412 SE 12th >> >> Portland Coffee at SE 25th and Belmont >> >> And there's the Urban Grind. Again. >> >> Billy Reed's Restaurant and Bar, 2808 NE MLK. >> >> Common Grounds at 4321 SE Hawthorne >> >> Bar of the gods 4801 SE Hawthorne (this sounds good!) >> >> Shanghai Tunnel Bar at 211 SW Ankeny >> >> Try some of those. I got those from CNET's wifi search engine.... >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > From wcooley at nakedape.cc Mon Jan 12 21:53:15 2004 From: wcooley at nakedape.cc (Wil Cooley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] January Meeting In-Reply-To: <40036544.8070107@dslnorthwest.net> References: <32930.130.94.161.146.1073614185.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <20040113000858.31152.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> <32806.130.94.161.146.1073953618.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <861xq4sk5u.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <32985.130.94.161.146.1073958844.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <86llocr2s7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <40036544.8070107@dslnorthwest.net> Message-ID: <1073965995.4008.186.camel@denk.nakedape.priv> On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 19:25, Marc Schuette wrote: > lurker here > > thoughts about... > > It's A Beautiful Pizza > 3341 SE Belmont > Portland, OR > (503) 233-5444 > > large basement room with a protection tv and screen Not anymore; IABP moved across Belmont and it's awfully noisy now, and there's no basement. The Blue Note moved into the old IABP building; I don't know if they're doing live shows 7/wk or if it's possible to get the basement. Wil -- Wil Cooley wcooley@nakedape.cc Naked Ape Consulting http://nakedape.cc * * * * Linux, UNIX, Networking and Security Solutions * * * * * Naked Ape Consulting http://nakedape.cc * * Tired of spam and viruses in your e-mail? * * Get the Naked Ape Mail Defender! http://nakedape.cc/r/md * -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20040112/48b21c2e/attachment.bin From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Tue Jan 13 14:25:59 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:28 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Location secured! Message-ID: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> PORTLAND, Jan. 13. Mathematicians announce a new formula they say will revolutionize the world of Portland Perlmonger meetings. "It's tough to classify it, and we don't really know how long it will be vaild," said Joshua Keroes, a promininent member of the group and high-powered mathematician. The formula, now known as "pdx.pm meeting location" has been sought after for many days, and the subject of much discussion. The formula, in its entirety, is TBA = "Portland Community College's Cascade campus library" other components include free wireless, but there are only theories on how this will fit into the equation, authorities said. .... Okay, the rest of the article wasn't that interesting, but what it means is that we have a location! In addition to the normal meeting stuff, we'll be doing some live refactoring (bring code to refactor if you have it) and I might attempt to juggle anything you bring (laptops at your own risk)... What: January Meeting When: January 14th, 2004 Who: Randal Schwartz "with" Tom Phoenix Who Else: You! (And don't forget my Freaky Neighbor!) Where: PCC's Cascade Campus library Map to PCC: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?location=2NI2dQhjKlKpVr3%2bSo1Hy0Aq9L%2b2bHSbUvs%2fF2hz8JHcF2rHkWRUGScdE46vXDtSj2ahActvlRtg%2f1h7u2O0vf0Mwlty%2br8VAswpSJ5iXnGPXi3AN%2fF3BqwPdGV%2bPfL9&address=705%20N%2e%20Killingsworth&city=&state=&zipcode=97217&country=US&addtohistory=&submit=Get%20Map Map of campus: http://www.pcc.edu/pcc/dma/cascademap.htm (it's the round building) Map of library: http://www.pcc.edu/library/maps/cascade/ (to prove the above parens) Why: Because you love Perl, duh. Vive le Perl! Josh __________________________ People photos and a stroll around Vancouver: photos @ http://www.joshheumann.com From cfeskens at willamette.edu Tue Jan 13 15:19:28 2004 From: cfeskens at willamette.edu (Casey Feskens) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Location secured! In-Reply-To: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <400460E0.6010306@willamette.edu> Josh Heumann wrote: > The formula, now known as "pdx.pm meeting location" has been sought after > for many days, and the subject of much discussion. The formula, in its > entirety, is > > TBA = "Portland Community College's Cascade campus library" > Since a location has been secured, has a window of time been secured also, or should I just show up at midnight? -- --------------------------------------------- Casey Feskens System Administrator/Network Svcs. Consultant Willamette University, Salem, OR --------------------------------------------- From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Tue Jan 13 15:41:07 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Location secured! In-Reply-To: <400460E0.6010306@willamette.edu> References: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> <400460E0.6010306@willamette.edu> Message-ID: <33876.130.94.161.250.1074030067.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> > Since a location has been secured, has a window of time been secured > also, or should I just show up at midnight? How does 6:30 strike you? Good? Good. Josh __________________________ People photos and a stroll around Vancouver: photos @ http://www.joshheumann.com From schwern at pobox.com Wed Jan 14 01:29:35 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Location secured! In-Reply-To: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <20040114072935.GM24883@localhost.attbi.com> On Tue, Jan 13, 2004 at 01:25:59PM -0700, Josh Heumann wrote: > Map to PCC: > http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?location=2NI2dQhjKlKpVr3%2bSo1Hy0Aq9L%2b2bHSbUvs%2fF2hz8JHcF2rHkWRUGScdE46vXDtSj2ahActvlRtg%2f1h7u2O0vf0Mwlty%2br8VAswpSJ5iXnGPXi3AN%2fF3BqwPdGV%2bPfL9&address=705%20N%2e%20Killingsworth&city=&state=&zipcode=97217&country=US&addtohistory=&submit=Get%20Map For those of you that don't have 49" wide screens... http://snipurl.com/3srs -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ There's a Balrog in the woodpile. From schwern at pobox.com Wed Jan 14 01:32:44 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Location secured! In-Reply-To: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <20040114073244.GN24883@localhost.attbi.com> On Tue, Jan 13, 2004 at 01:25:59PM -0700, Josh Heumann wrote: > Where: PCC's Cascade Campus library PS For those of us who are personal combustion-engine challenged, the #4 to St. Johns lets off on Albina and Killingsworth within spitting distance of the campus, so says trimet.org. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ If God made anything more guerrila than your breast, I hope he kept it for your father. From merlyn at stonehenge.com Wed Jan 14 09:25:17 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Location secured! In-Reply-To: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <33567.130.94.161.250.1074025559.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <86wu7uh7s9.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Josh" == Josh Heumann writes: Josh> TBA = "Portland Community College's Cascade campus library" Whoa! Did I mention I won't go in to North Portland after dark? Just kidding. See ya there. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From Martin.Schneider at tntsoftware.com Wed Jan 14 10:36:29 2004 From: Martin.Schneider at tntsoftware.com (Martin Schneider) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Location secured! Message-ID: >PS For those of us who are personal combustion-engine challenged, >the #4 to St. Johns lets off on Albina and Killingsworth within >spitting distance of the campus, so says trimet.org. Also, I'll be heading South from Vancouver and can give up to 3 people a ride. -Martin From joe at radiojoe.org Wed Jan 14 20:31:42 2004 From: joe at radiojoe.org (Joe Oppegaard) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Bruce Schneier @ Powell's Technical Books Message-ID: I knew I was forgetting about something else that was going on tonight. Well, I'm already at the PCC library, where exactly are we meeting at in here? (Btw, the 'net connection isn't too great.) -Joe Oppegaard ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:11:09 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Oppegaard To: pdx-pm-list@pm.org Subject: [Pdx-pm] Bruce Schneier @ Powell's Technical Books Mongers, Bruce Schneier, everyone's favorite crypto-guy, will be at Powell's Technical Books on January 14th, 7:30pm. Mark your calendar! As stated in the last crypto-gram, Schneier is doing a series of lectures and signings to promote Beyond Fear (his newest book). Portland is one of the few stops. -Joe Oppegaard From schwern at pobox.com Sun Jan 18 21:58:14 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Computing Gestalt classes at Reed Message-ID: <20040119035814.GA4481@localhost.attbi.com> I mentioned this at the last meeting, sorry for taking so long to post it up. I'm teaching an informal class at Reed College this coming week entitled "Computing Gestalt". This is a class for computer users who want to know something of what happens inside the black box when they click on a link in web browser or type into a word processor. Its a broad survey of how computers work touching on things like: what makes up a modern PC; how does a web connection work; how does computer privacy and encryption work; how does one express human thinking into computer thinking... Its a non-technical class, no prior knowledge of programming is required. In fact, if you already are a programmer you might be bored. This is ideal for a friend that asks you lots of questions about what its like to be a programmer. Its at a level of complexity that your mom can handle. Questions and interesting digressions are encouraged. This is part of Reed College's Paideia, a time between academic semesters when people are allowed to teach pretty much anything and usually do. The classes are very informal. I'm not 100% sure what the official policy is towards non-Reed folks attending, but I doubt anyone will mind. Just act like you belong there. When: This Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, 3 to 5pm. Where: Reed College. Classes will be in Eliot Hall. Monday it will be in Eliot 126, Tuesday and Thursday in Eliot 414. Here's a campus map. http://web.reed.edu/facilities_and_grounds/reedcampusmap.html Eliot is the building in the middle next to the roundabout. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ Don't ask me lady, I live in beer. From cdawson at webiphany.com Mon Jan 19 01:07:52 2004 From: cdawson at webiphany.com (Chris Dawson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] how to specify an interface in a .pm file Message-ID: <400B8248.3050401@webiphany.com> Hi there, I have a software package to which I want to allow third-party library upgrades. By this I mean I want to allow people to upload .pm files which implement a certain API interface and then use those .pm files in my software package. I think I am clear about how I dynamically load the .pm files, by using an eval once I have retrieved the filename. But, I am unclear how I would query a .pm file to determine what subroutines are defined, without calling into them. I am comfortable requiring that people provide me with function prototypes, although definitely unclear as to how exactly to specify these in the module, and even if this gets me closer to a solution. Does anyone have any suggestions, preferably with sample code? If it wasn't clear, here is some code: (My API requires these two functions: get_description and process) (Plugin.pm) package Plugin; sub process( $$ ); sub process { 1; } sub get_description( $ ); sub get_description { 1; } How do I query Plugin.pm and determine if it has both process and get_description? Also, is there a way to not specify "package Plugin;" at the top of every file, since in this case it is somewhat redundant as the filename is the same. perl doesn't appear to recognize it as a package unless you do this. I guess I could use grep, but I would like to understand better how all of this works in perl, since it is clear how I would do this using function pointers and DLLs with c/c++. Thanks, Chris From merlyn at stonehenge.com Mon Jan 19 01:04:13 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] how to specify an interface in a .pm file In-Reply-To: <400B8248.3050401@webiphany.com> References: <400B8248.3050401@webiphany.com> Message-ID: <86y8s4qv11.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Dawson writes: Chris> How do I query Plugin.pm and determine if it has both process and Chris> get_description? require Plugin; die unless Plugin->can("process") and Plugin->can("get_description"); -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From raanders at acm.org Wed Jan 21 20:03:45 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations Message-ID: I support a non-profit with a domain and we're getting ready to up grade their OS. Several of the applications they use are *_OLD_*. I built the server when Redhat Linux 6.1 was new. Since money was tight as usual I used several free and open source applications that have since gone a bit stale. I want to upgrade them but google and CPAN searches were either less-filling or of a gluttonous quantity. No middle ground. I'd like to get this lists recommendations for perl based: web mail, web calendaring, and mailing lists managers. The web calendaring choices (free/open source/perl) were easy. Only one (WebCal) - still if there are any I missed I'd like to hear about them. This is the only one I'll mention so I don't pollute. TIA, Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From joe at radiojoe.org Wed Jan 21 23:49:56 2004 From: joe at radiojoe.org (Joe Oppegaard) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Roderick A. Anderson wrote: <-snip-> > less-filling or of a gluttonous quantity. No middle ground. I'd like to > get this lists recommendations for perl based: web mail, web calendaring, > and mailing lists managers. As for webmail, I setup Open Webmail which my family uses happily. Wasn't too bad setting it up if I remember right. It supports virtual hosts and most things you'd care about. Perl & GPL. Mailing list managers, well, does it have to be written in Perl? One of the standards is Mailman , which is written in Python. (If it's good enough for pm.org, it's good enough for me. Hint: ). -Joe Oppegaard From raanders at acm.org Thu Jan 22 11:32:17 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Joe Oppegaard wrote: > As for webmail, I setup Open Webmail which my > family uses happily. Wasn't too bad setting it up if I remember right. > It supports virtual hosts and most things you'd care about. Perl & GPL. This looks good and I did miss/never find it when searching. > Mailing list managers, well, does it have to be written in Perl? One of > the standards is Mailman , which is written in > Python. (If it's good enough for pm.org, it's good enough for me. Hint: > ). Well I suspect I'll want to look at the code and I am not into in learning another language. Though I have considered mailman (and maybe a dose of perlthon). Thanks for the ideas. Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From ptkwt at aracnet.com Thu Jan 22 23:35:28 2004 From: ptkwt at aracnet.com (Phil Tomson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you learn Ruby? Message-ID: I'm contracting at a large corporation on the westside and we're looking to develop a cross-platform app with GUI. Prior to my arrival at large corporation on the westside the proposal was to do it in Flash. I'm not sure how Flash is as a programming language (we need more than just a GUI) but I suspect it's lacking in that department. Fortunately, there has been a lot of opposition to using Flash from the Linux side of the house. Since they seemed to be at an impasse, I suggested that they consider doing it in Ruby/FLTK. Why Ruby/FLTK you ask? Well, for one thing, Ruby is probably my most productive programming language at this point (and I would be the main developer) and for another some very large (and critical) applications have been written in the same corporation (but in a different group) using Ruby and FLTK so I know that there are Ruby programmers at large-corporation-on-the-westside and that we could show off some of the apps they had written to show that it's a for-real option. So yesterday morning we had our demo from the other group and people were pretty impressed. Now we're off to present to the next level of management. The question that is being raised (understandably) by some of them is that they've never heard of Ruby (these are management folks, remember) and where would they find Ruby programmers. Turns out that there are Ruby classes offered at the corporation. Since I came to Ruby from Perl my reply is that Perl programmers can pick up Ruby and be productive in about a week. In my experience I felt I was _more_ productive in Ruby after about 2-3 weeks than I had been in Perl (and I had been programming in Perl ~ 6 years). So, that's why I post here to the Portland Perl Monger's. How about it - if you had a copy of "Programming Ruby" (full text online here: http://whytheluckystiff.net/ruby/pickaxe/ ) how long do you think it would take you to come up to speed with Ruby and be productive? Phil From tex at off.org Fri Jan 23 00:27:40 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you learn Ruby? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040123062740.GW11900@gblx.net> On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 09:35:28PM -0800, Phil Tomson wrote: I don't do a lot of cross platform stuff (unless you count different unixes), so I'll skip my uneducated recommendation, except to say that python features a java implementation that will run under a jvm and interface well with java junk, if you care. > > So, that's why I post here to the Portland Perl Monger's. How about it - > if you had a copy of "Programming Ruby" (full text online here: > http://whytheluckystiff.net/ruby/pickaxe/ ) how long do you think it would > take you to come up to speed with Ruby and be productive? > How about you get me a copy and I'll tell you? ;-) In my experience it takes about a week to get reasonably productive with a language, and a few months before you learn how to not have most of the language's nuances bite you in the ass. Austin From tex at off.org Fri Jan 23 00:31:29 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you learn Ruby? In-Reply-To: <20040123062740.GW11900@gblx.net> References: <20040123062740.GW11900@gblx.net> Message-ID: <20040123063129.GX11900@gblx.net> On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 10:27:40PM -0800, Austin Schutz wrote: > On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 09:35:28PM -0800, Phil Tomson wrote: > > > I don't do a lot of cross platform stuff (unless you count different > unixes), so I'll skip my uneducated recommendation, except to say that > python features a java implementation that will run under a jvm and > interface well with java junk, if you care. > > > > > So, that's why I post here to the Portland Perl Monger's. How about it - > > if you had a copy of "Programming Ruby" (full text online here: > > http://whytheluckystiff.net/ruby/pickaxe/ ) how long do you think it would > > take you to come up to speed with Ruby and be productive? > > > How about you get me a copy and I'll tell you? ;-) Just dd that last comment. For some reason I was thinking that was a reference to a paper guide. Need more ritalin and less coffee. Austin From ptkwt at aracnet.com Fri Jan 23 10:40:31 2004 From: ptkwt at aracnet.com (Phil Tomson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you learn Ruby? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Raphael Almeria wrote: > Well if they're offering Ruby classes at the company then what's the > problem? ; ) My thought exactly. But management... oh, well I won't comment on that. > > I've never studied Ruby but I have studied Python, simply because there > is so much momentum behind it, and I built a complete application in > Python just to ensure that I would learn how to use a lot of the > constructs of Pythonia. Well, I would estimate that it probably took > me about a week to absorb the language with the libraries being the > most difficult aspect to figure out. In my experience (I tried Python too before Ruby) Perl and Ruby seem much closer philosophically than Perl and Python. I suspect it's easier to go from Perl -> Ruby than it is to go from Perl -> Python (it was in my case). > > So I guess it would take me about a week to become productive in Ruby > unless it was seriously more complicated than Python or Perl. > > Good luck with your project. : ) > Thanks. Phil From curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com Fri Jan 23 09:32:43 2004 From: curtis_ovid_poe at yahoo.com (Ovid) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you learn Ruby? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040123153243.98717.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> --- Phil Tomson wrote: > they've > never heard of Ruby (these are management folks, remember) and where > would they find Ruby programmers. To give a slightly different perspective, let's put it this way: at my current job, 95% or more of our code is written in Perl. We do not require applicants to know Perl. We require them to understand programming. You can take someone who knows Perl inside and out and they can still be an awful programmer. On the other hand, you can take good, solid programmers and they can learn how to be good programmers in most languages. I think the management should be aware that, in general, a project will get much better payoff with applying good people to a task than by applying language "experts" who may not be programming experts. > >ow long do you think it would > take you to come up to speed with Ruby and be productive? >From the lite dabbling I've done in Ruby, I could learn that language much faster than Perl. I can't argue if it's really a better language (I don't know it that well), but it's one hell of a cleaner language. I strongly suspect that I could start doing solid work in Ruby in less than a week (of course, I'd dabble at home, too). And thanks for the Ruby link! Cheers, Ovid PS: As an interesting side note, I mentioned that applicants at our company don't need to know Perl. So how do we assess they're language ability? One of our programmers interviews the applicant and asks what her best language is. Then this programmer proceeds to grill them about this language. I've seen him write code in C, C++, Perl, Python, OCAML, Squeak, and others. Truly amazing. ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/indexdecency.htm Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From kellert at ohsu.edu Fri Jan 23 16:16:48 2004 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Fwd: [DBRG] internship opportunity with the Irisnet group at Intel Message-ID: FYI Begin forwarded message: > From: Juliana Freire > Date: January 23, 2004 11:22:18 AM PST > To: dbreading@cse.ogi.edu > Cc: Juliana Freire > Subject: [DBRG] internship opportunity with the Irisnet group at Intel > > Hi All, > > There is an internship opportunity for an Intel/OSU project: > > "The internship would start in the spring and run through the > end of the summer (6 months), although a summer-only internship (3 > months) is fine as well. The student would be located at Oregon State > in Corvallis, working closely with the oceanographers there (headed by > the Dean, Mark Abbott) and their IT folks. > > The student should be a good Java and C programmer. He/she should be > familiar with (or can learn quickly) XML, networking (e.g., > socket-level > programming), and basic image processing. Most importantly, the > student > should be interested in working with domain scientist (in this case > oceanographers) to develop and deploy a distributed XML software system > that the scientists find useful." > > If you are interested, let me know ASAP. > > Juliana. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1409 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20040123/5878ff87/attachment.bin From merlyn at stonehenge.com Fri Jan 23 17:38:01 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you learn Ruby? In-Reply-To: <20040123153243.98717.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040123153243.98717.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86r7xqw817.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Ovid" == Ovid writes: Ovid> I've seen him write code in C, Algorithmic Ovid> C++, Algorithmic-OO hybrid Ovid> Perl, ditto Ovid> Python, Ditto Ovid> OCAML, Functional(?) Ovid> Squeak, Pure OO Ovid> and others. Truly amazing. Once you get the concepts of programming the major families down, you can move laterally pretty easily. If you had added "Prolog" to that list, I'd be a bit more impressed. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From darthsmily at verizon.net Fri Jan 23 23:25:50 2004 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you learn Ruby? In-Reply-To: <86r7xqw817.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <20040123153243.98717.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> <86r7xqw817.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <401201DE.2070609@verizon.net> You add VB to that list, then THAT would be impressive! Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>>"Ovid" == Ovid writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > >Ovid> I've seen him write code in C, > >Algorithmic > >Ovid> C++, > >Algorithmic-OO hybrid > >Ovid> Perl, > >ditto > >Ovid> Python, > >Ditto > >Ovid> OCAML, > >Functional(?) > >Ovid> Squeak, > >Pure OO > >Ovid> and others. Truly amazing. > >Once you get the concepts of programming the major families down, you >can move laterally pretty easily. If you had added "Prolog" to that >list, I'd be a bit more impressed. :) > > > From ptkwt at aracnet.com Wed Jan 21 21:08:12 2004 From: ptkwt at aracnet.com (Phil Tomson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] How quickly could you pick up Ruby? Message-ID: I'm contracting at a large corporation on the westside and we're looking to develop a cross-platform app with GUI. Prior to my arrival at large corporation on the westside the proposal was to do it in Flash. I'm not sure how Flash is as a programming language (we need more than just a GUI) but I suspect it's lacking in that department. Fortunately, there has been a lot of opposition to using Flash from the Linux side of the house. Since they seemed to be at an impasse, I suggested that they consider doing it in Ruby/FLTK. Why Ruby/FLTK you ask? Well, for one thing, Ruby is probably my most productive programming language at this point (and I would be the main developer) and for another some very large (and critical) applications have been written in the same corporation (but in a different group) using Ruby and FLTK so I know that there are Ruby programmers at large-corporation-on-the-westside and that we could show off some of the apps they had written to show that it's a for-real option. So this morning we had our demo from the other group and people were pretty impressed. Now we're off to present to the next level of management. The question that is being raised (understandably) by some of them is that they've never heard of Ruby (these are management folks, remember) and where would they find Ruby programmers (turns out that there are Ruby classes offered at the corporation). Since I came from Perl to Ruby my reply is that Perl programmers can pick up Ruby and be productive in about a week. In my experience I felt I was _more_ productive in Ruby after about 2-3 weeks than I had been in Perl (and I had been programming in Perl for 6 years). So, that's why I post here to the Portland Perl Monger's. How about it - if you had a copy of "Programming Ruby" (online here: http://whytheluckystiff.net/ruby/pickaxe/ ) how long do you think it would take you to come up to speed with Ruby and be productive? Phil From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Mon Jan 26 13:31:33 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations Message-ID: <33460.134.69.240.38.1075145493.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> > As for webmail, I setup Open Webmail which my > family uses happily. Wasn't too bad setting it up if I remember right. > It supports virtual hosts and most things you'd care about. Perl & > GPL. > > Mailing list managers, well, does it have to be written in Perl? One > of the standards is Mailman , which is written in > Python. (If it's good enough for pm.org, it's good enough for me. > Hint: ). This is a good start of a list. So good, in fact, that it was made into a kwiki page! Feel free to add to it at http://pdx.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?PerlApps . Poking around, I found the common regluar expression list, which I just used. It would be great to have a nice, comprehensive set of lists like these for our members (and others) to use. Go to the kwiki. Add something. Do it now. Josh __________________________ 13 portraits in one series of photos, 88 photos total http://www.joshheumann.com From raanders at acm.org Mon Jan 26 18:03:25 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations In-Reply-To: <33460.134.69.240.38.1075145493.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Josh Heumann wrote: > This is a good start of a list. So good, in fact, that it was made into > a kwiki page! Feel free to add to it at > http://pdx.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?PerlApps . Poking around, I found the > common regluar expression list, which I just used. It would be great to > have a nice, comprehensive set of lists like these for our members (and > others) to use. > > > Go to the kwiki. Add something. Do it now. > I did. I will when I have something to add. I Did. I am really tempted to try perlthon on mailman. I'm sorry but I haven't seen any benefit of using python (this is not flame-bait). I got too much of a feeling of PASCAL, FORTRAN, and COBOL when I looked at some of the code. Maybe it's me. Probably is. I am after all CPF (Certified Perl Fanatic :-). Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From darthsmily at verizon.net Tue Jan 27 13:42:03 2004 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations In-Reply-To: <33460.134.69.240.38.1075145493.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> References: <33460.134.69.240.38.1075145493.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <4016BF0B.6090109@verizon.net> Hello, I am getting tons of 'virus emails' at the address I only use for the perl mailing list. So everybody should immediatly check for a virus infection. Thanks you. Garrett Josh Heumann wrote: >>As for webmail, I setup Open Webmail which my >>family uses happily. Wasn't too bad setting it up if I remember right. >>It supports virtual hosts and most things you'd care about. Perl & >>GPL. >> >>Mailing list managers, well, does it have to be written in Perl? One >>of the standards is Mailman , which is written in >>Python. (If it's good enough for pm.org, it's good enough for me. >>Hint: ). >> >> > >This is a good start of a list. So good, in fact, that it was made into >a kwiki page! Feel free to add to it at >http://pdx.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?PerlApps . Poking around, I found the >common regluar expression list, which I just used. It would be great to >have a nice, comprehensive set of lists like these for our members (and >others) to use. > > >Go to the kwiki. Add something. Do it now. > > >Josh >__________________________ >13 portraits in one series >of photos, 88 photos total >http://www.joshheumann.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Pdx-pm-list mailing list >Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org >http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > > > From kellert at ohsu.edu Tue Jan 27 17:17:29 2004 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] acronym Message-ID: How does that other acronym for perl expand (if you know what I mean) besides practical extraction & report language, precocious eclectic rubbish lister ?? pernicious eccentric rhubarb liner ?? TK From jkeroes at eli.net Tue Jan 27 17:23:36 2004 From: jkeroes at eli.net (Joshua Keroes) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] acronym In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2004, at 3:17 PM, Thomas J Keller wrote: > How does that other acronym for perl expand (if you know what I mean) > besides practical extraction & report language, > precocious eclectic rubbish lister ?? > pernicious eccentric rhubarb liner ?? You mean "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister"? From robbyrussell at pdxlug.org Wed Jan 28 18:02:48 2004 From: robbyrussell at pdxlug.org (Robby Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl Message-ID: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> I am trying to use Net::SSH::Perl to send ssh commands to a remote server and it doesn't seem to be connecting. I am use ssh keys as well, could that be a part of the problem? It shouldn't prompt for a password as the authorized_keys exist and work already for typical ssh connection. [snip] my $ssh_user = "username"; my $server = "remoteip"; my $ssh = Net::SSH::Perl->new($server); # login with $ssh_user if ($ssh->login($ssh_user)) { ... } From tex at off.org Wed Jan 28 18:42:39 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <20040129004239.GG28385@gblx.net> On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 04:02:48PM -0800, Robby Russell wrote: > I am trying to use Net::SSH::Perl to send ssh commands to a remote > server and it doesn't seem to be connecting. > I am use ssh keys as well, could that be a part of the problem? It > shouldn't prompt for a password as the authorized_keys exist and work > already for typical ssh connection. > I thought I'd check the docs before sending a response, so I fired up -MCPAN -eshell and tried to install it. Somewhere down amongst the bloody mess of 60000 module dependencies of Net::SSH::Perl I hit a compiler error: cc -c -I../pari-2.1.5/src/headers -I../pari-2.1.5/src/graph -I. -D_REENTRANT -D_GNU_SOURCE -fno-strict-aliasing -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -O3 --pipe -DVERSION=\"\" -DXS_VERSION=\"\" -fPIC -Derr=pari_err -DASMINLINE -DGCC_INLINE -DDYNAMIC_PLOTTING -o buch2.o ../pari-2.1.5/src/basemath/buch2.c ../pari-2.1.5/src/basemath/buch2.c:1782: internal compiler error: in remove_edge, at callgraph.c:189 Please submit a full bug report, with preprocessed source if appropriate. So, so much for that. But anyway, the included docs indicate a debugging flag. Try turning that on. If it doesn't do anything useful consider using Net::SSH or Expect.pm and your normal ssh binary. Austin P.S. Am I the only one who thinks the current build system, while neat, can be pretty stinky sometimes (this being a good example)? Binary packages for different systems would take up a bunch of space, but they'd be awfully convenient. From rootbeer at redcat.com Wed Jan 28 18:54:19 2004 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, Robby Russell wrote: > I am trying to use Net::SSH::Perl to send ssh commands to a remote > server and it doesn't seem to be connecting. Does the debug mode tell you that it's connecting, or why not? --Tom Phoenix From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Wed Jan 28 19:59:19 2004 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040129015919.38329.qmail@web10912.mail.yahoo.com> Joe Oppegaard wrote: > Mailing list managers, well, does it have to be written in Perl? One of > the standards is Mailman , which is written in > Python. (If it's good enough for pm.org, it's good enough for me. Hint: > ). If you want a Perl-based one, you might try the recent siesta: http://siesta.unixbeard.net/ http://search.cpan.org/dist/Siesta/ or the not so recent majordomo: http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/ Apart from being a standard, does mailman have killer feature/s that these Perl-based ones lack? /-\ (who can't understand why Python should be better suited to writing mailing list manager software than Perl) http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From bruce at gridpoint.com Wed Jan 28 23:44:10 2004 From: bruce at gridpoint.com (Bruce J Keeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Local colo deals? Message-ID: <1075355050.12540.25.camel@scrunge.gridpoint.com> Looking for a good place to stick a 1U server in Portland. Any recommendations? Thanks, Bruce From paul at edgewood.net Thu Jan 29 00:26:51 2004 From: paul at edgewood.net (Paul Bingman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Local colo deals? In-Reply-To: <1075355050.12540.25.camel@scrunge.gridpoint.com> References: <1075355050.12540.25.camel@scrunge.gridpoint.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, Bruce J Keeler wrote: > Looking for a good place to stick a 1U server in Portland. Any > recommendations? http://pdxcolo.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul Bingman Edgewood.net Web Sites paul@edgewood.net Custom Consulting www.edgewood.net Internet Solutions Programming From robbyrussell at pdxlug.org Thu Jan 29 10:58:27 2004 From: robbyrussell at pdxlug.org (Robby Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> Tom Phoenix typed this on 01/28/2004 04:54 PM: > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, Robby Russell wrote: > > >>I am trying to use Net::SSH::Perl to send ssh commands to a remote >>server and it doesn't seem to be connecting. > > > Does the debug mode tell you that it's connecting, or why not? > > --Tom Phoenix Thanks, the debug helped. It was missing Term/ReadKey. Now on to the next problem [snip] dev: Reading configuration data /var/www/.ssh/config dev: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh_config dev: Connecting to 67.126.xxx.xxx, port 22. dev: Remote protocol version 1.99, remote software version OpenSSH_3.7p1 dev: Net::SSH::Perl Version 1.25, protocol version 1.5. dev: No compat match: OpenSSH_3.7p1. dev: Connection established. dev: Waiting for server public key. dev: Received server public key (768 bits) and host key (1024 bits). dev: Host '67.126.xxx.xxx' is known and matches the host key. dev: Encryption type: DES3 dev: Sent encrypted session key. dev: Received encryption confirmation. dev: RSA authentication failed: Can't load public key. dev: Doing challenge response authentication. Password: [/snip] (prompts for password...which it shouldn't do) To test that the key works, I just tried to ssh to the machine. No password requested. $ ssh statususer@67.126.xxx.xxx [statususer@primaryfax statususer]$ So, I am now trying to figure out why perl can't load the public key but regular ssh can. Any thoughts? runs back to the documentation, -Robby From tex at off.org Thu Jan 29 14:15:24 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 08:58:27AM -0800, Robby Russell wrote: > > Thanks, the debug helped. It was missing Term/ReadKey. Now on to the > next problem > > [snip] > Password: > [/snip] > > (prompts for password...which it shouldn't do) > > To test that the key works, I just tried to ssh to the machine. No > password requested. > > $ ssh statususer@67.126.xxx.xxx > [statususer@primaryfax statususer]$ > > So, I am now trying to figure out why perl can't load the public key but > regular ssh can. > > Any thoughts? > Try using truss/strace to figure out what it is trying to open. On linux this would be: strace -o script.out -f script then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions problem. Austin From tex at off.org Thu Jan 29 14:27:24 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> Message-ID: <20040129202724.GK28385@gblx.net> > > Try using truss/strace to figure out what it is trying to open. > On linux this would be: > > strace -o script.out -f script > > then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions problem. > I added a link to strace on the kwiki. Is there a link to the apps page from the pdx.pm.org site? I found it by looking through the 'recent changes' link. Austin From robbyrussell at pdxlug.org Thu Jan 29 14:45:22 2004 From: robbyrussell at pdxlug.org (Robby Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> Message-ID: <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> Austin Schutz typed this on 01/29/2004 12:15 PM: >> > > > Try using truss/strace to figure out what it is trying to open. > On linux this would be: > > strace -o script.out -f script > > then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions problem. From the readkey area of the output: 24548 open("/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Term/ReadKey/ReadKey.so", O_RDONLY) = 5 24548 read(5, "\177ELF\1\1\1\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\3\0\3\0\1\0\0\0\320\32"..., 512) = 512 24548 fstat64(5, {st_mode=S_IFREG|0555, st_size=121252, ...}) = 0 24548 old_mmap(NULL, 38200, PROT_READ|PROT_EXEC, MAP_PRIVATE, 5, 0) = 0x40612000 24548 old_mmap(0x4061b000, 4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_FIXED, 5, 0x8000) = 0x4061b000 24548 close(5) = 0 24548 brk(0) = 0x85a0000 24548 brk(0x85a1000) = 0x85a1000 24548 brk(0) = 0x85a1000 24548 brk(0x85a2000) = 0x85a2000 24548 brk(0) = 0x85a2000 24548 brk(0x85a3000) = 0x85a3000 24548 ioctl(0, SNDCTL_TMR_TIMEBASE, {B38400 opost isig icanon echo ...}) = 0 24548 ioctl(0, SNDCTL_TMR_START, {B38400 opost isig icanon -echo ...}) = 0 24548 ioctl(0, SNDCTL_TMR_TIMEBASE, {B38400 opost isig icanon -echo ...}) = 0 24548 brk(0) = 0x85a3000 24548 brk(0x85a4000) = 0x85a4000 24548 write(1, "Password: ", 10) = 10 From tex at gblx.net Thu Jan 29 14:53:54 2004 From: tex at gblx.net (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <20040129205354.GL28385@gblx.net> On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 12:45:22PM -0800, Robby Russell wrote: > Austin Schutz typed this on 01/29/2004 12:15 PM: > > >> > > > > > > Try using truss/strace to figure out what it is trying to open. > >On linux this would be: > > > >strace -o script.out -f script > > > > then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions > > problem. > > From the readkey area of the output: > > 24548 > open("/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Term/ReadKey/ReadKey.so", > 24548 write(1, "Password: ", 10) = 10 > _______________________________________________ I think the important part is actually: dev: Received encryption confirmation. dev: RSA authentication failed: Can't load public key. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ dev: Doing challenge response authentication. Password: the part where it fails to load the pub key. It should be trying to open $HOME/.ssh/id_rsa.pub or similar. That is, unless I misread your original email. It looked like you were trying to do password-less rsa auth. Austin From robbyrussell at pdxlug.org Thu Jan 29 15:05:52 2004 From: robbyrussell at pdxlug.org (Robby Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <20040129205354.GL28385@gblx.net> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> <20040129205354.GL28385@gblx.net> Message-ID: <401975B0.6080100@pdxlug.org> Austin Schutz typed this on 01/29/2004 12:53 PM: > On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 12:45:22PM -0800, Robby Russell wrote: > >>Austin Schutz typed this on 01/29/2004 12:15 PM: >> >> >>> >>> Try using truss/strace to figure out what it is trying to open. >>>On linux this would be: >>> >>>strace -o script.out -f script >>> >>> then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions >>> problem. >> >>From the readkey area of the output: >> >>24548 >>open("/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Term/ReadKey/ReadKey.so", > > > >>24548 write(1, "Password: ", 10) = 10 >>_______________________________________________ > > > I think the important part is actually: > > dev: Received encryption confirmation. > dev: RSA authentication failed: Can't load public key. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > dev: Doing challenge response authentication. > Password: > > > the part where it fails to load the pub key. It should be trying > to open $HOME/.ssh/id_rsa.pub or similar. That is, unless I misread your > original email. It looked like you were trying to do password-less rsa > auth. I was just assuming that this is where it is trying to read/load the key. The file exists where I am pointing it to. Not sure why it can't open the file to load the key. -Robb From rootbeer at redcat.com Thu Jan 29 15:12:51 2004 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Robby Russell wrote: > > then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions problem. > > From the readkey area of the output: > > 24548 > open("/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Term/ReadKey/ReadKey.so", > O_RDONLY) = 5 > 24548 read(5, Waitaminute. It shouldn't need ReadKey.so until it has already decided to ask for the password. Unless I'm missing something. If you don't want it to ask you, check a little earlier to see whether it failed to open some file, or whether it checked the permissions on some file, and found it unreadable. "Some file" probably being the one with the needed key (to use in place of the password). Also, try the -v option, possibly more than once, when you connect with ssh directly; you may find out that your ssh client is getting your key from someplace you didn't expect, and that source may not be accessible to the Perl module without some extra guidance. (You may be running ssh-agent, for example, or maybe your ssh client is running as a different user-ID than your Perl program.) Good luck with it! --Tom Phoenix From robbyrussell at pdxlug.org Thu Jan 29 15:51:00 2004 From: robbyrussell at pdxlug.org (Robby Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <40198044.9030204@pdxlug.org> Tom Phoenix typed this on 01/29/2004 01:12 PM: > On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Robby Russell wrote: > > >>> then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions problem. >> >> From the readkey area of the output: >> >>24548 >>open("/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Term/ReadKey/ReadKey.so", >>O_RDONLY) = 5 >>24548 read(5, > > > Waitaminute. It shouldn't need ReadKey.so until it has already decided to > ask for the password. Unless I'm missing something. > > If you don't want it to ask you, check a little earlier to see whether it > failed to open some file, or whether it checked the permissions on some > file, and found it unreadable. "Some file" probably being the one with the > needed key (to use in place of the password). > > Also, try the -v option, possibly more than once, when you connect with > ssh directly; you may find out that your ssh client is getting your key > from someplace you didn't expect, and that source may not be accessible to > the Perl module without some extra guidance. (You may be running > ssh-agent, for example, or maybe your ssh client is running as a different > user-ID than your Perl program.) > > Good luck with it! > > --Tom Phoenix Found this above the ReadKey area of the strace: 24737 read(5, "", 4096) = 0 24737 close(5) = 0 24737 write(2, "dev: RSA authentication failed: "..., 55) = 55 24737 write(2, "dev: Doing challenge response au"..., 46) = 46 24737 write(4, "\0\0\0\0052\223\224p\252*\2)", 12) = 12 24737 select(8, [4], NULL, NULL, NULL) = 1 (in [4]) For example: I have user1. user1 can at the bash shell go, ssh remoteuser@remotehost logs in, no questions asked user1 executes script which runs doesn't run as any other user, gets prompted for password. -Robby From rootbeer at redcat.com Thu Jan 29 16:19:35 2004 From: rootbeer at redcat.com (Tom Phoenix) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <40198044.9030204@pdxlug.org> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> <40198044.9030204@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Robby Russell wrote: > 24737 write(2, "dev: RSA authentication failed: "..., 55) = 55 By the time it writes that message, the failure has already happened. Look further back to find the actual failure. Where was the system call that tried and failed to get the RSA key? > user1 can at the bash shell go, ssh remoteuser@remotehost > logs in, no questions asked > user1 executes script which runs doesn't run as any other user, gets > prompted for password. Are all of the environment variables the same in both cases? Did the same login scripts (or whatever) get executed? Are they using the same working directory? Are the UIDs really the same? And so on... You know that _something_ is different between the two cases -- it doesn't matter how much is the same; it's what's different that counts. --Tom Phoenix From bprew at logiccloud.com Thu Jan 29 19:04:01 2004 From: bprew at logiccloud.com (Ben Prew) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Net::SSH::Perl In-Reply-To: <401975B0.6080100@pdxlug.org> References: <40184DA8.7010302@pdxlug.org> <40193BB3.4020902@pdxlug.org> <20040129201523.GI28385@gblx.net> <401970E2.2060802@pdxlug.org> <20040129205354.GL28385@gblx.net> <401975B0.6080100@pdxlug.org> Message-ID: <4019AD81.30305@logiccloud.com> Robby Russell wrote: > Austin Schutz typed this on 01/29/2004 12:53 PM: > >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 12:45:22PM -0800, Robby Russell wrote: >> >>> Austin Schutz typed this on 01/29/2004 12:15 PM: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Try using truss/strace to figure out what it is trying to open. >>>> On linux this would be: >>>> >>>> strace -o script.out -f script >>>> >>>> then grep open script.out. Maybe there's some odd permissions >>>> problem. >>> >>> >>> From the readkey area of the output: >>> >>> 24548 >>> open("/usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/i386-linux-thread-multi/auto/Term/ReadKey/ReadKey.so", >> >> >> >> >> >>> 24548 write(1, "Password: ", 10) = 10 >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> I think the important part is actually: >> >> dev: Received encryption confirmation. >> dev: RSA authentication failed: Can't load public key. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> dev: Doing challenge response authentication. >> Password: >> >> >> the part where it fails to load the pub key. It should be trying >> to open $HOME/.ssh/id_rsa.pub or similar. That is, unless I misread your >> original email. It looked like you were trying to do password-less rsa >> auth. > > > I was just assuming that this is where it is trying to read/load the > key. The file exists where I am pointing it to. Not sure why it can't > open the file to load the key. I'm not sure if this is appropriate, but I know in the past I have been bit by incorrect permissions on my key files. I believe private key files must not be readable, writeable or executable by anyone but the owner, (aka chmod 600 $HOME/.ssh/id_rsa). I don't remeber what public keys need to be, but I would expect it to have similar restrictions. Also, on the remote server you are trying to connect to, you must have your public key listed in the remote authorized_hosts file (located in $HOME/.ssh/), which I believe can only be writable by the owner (ie chmod 644 $HOME/.ssh/authorized_hosts). Lastly, if your private key (which is on the local machine) has a password associated with it, you will need to type that password in to load it, or use some program that will load the private key into memory. ssh-agent is what I use on Linux, and on windows I use pageant. > > -Robb > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- Ben Prew ben@pdxlan.com www.pdxlan.com From raanders at acm.org Fri Jan 30 14:10:47 2004 From: raanders at acm.org (Roderick A. Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations In-Reply-To: <20040129015919.38329.qmail@web10912.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Andrew Savige wrote: > If you want a Perl-based one, you might try the recent siesta: > http://siesta.unixbeard.net/ > http://search.cpan.org/dist/Siesta/ Wow. A quick look says this is what I need. Thanks. > or the not so recent majordomo: > http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/ Yeah majordomo was being considered but I thought it was a bit of over kill for a dozen or so lists with less than 1000 members each (my guesses here.) > Apart from being a standard, does mailman have killer feature/s > that these Perl-based ones lack? > > /-\ (who can't understand why Python should be better suited to > writing mailing list manager software than Perl) Ergo, my question. I want to be able to fiddle if the need arises. Again thanks, Rod -- "Open Source Software - You usually get more than you pay for..." "Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL" From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Sat Jan 31 16:17:42 2004 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040131221742.82957.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Roderick A. Anderson wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Andrew Savige wrote: > > > If you want a Perl-based one, you might try the recent siesta: > > http://siesta.unixbeard.net/ > > http://search.cpan.org/dist/Siesta/ > > Wow. A quick look says this is what I need. Thanks. > > > or the not so recent majordomo: > > http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/ > > Yeah majordomo was being considered but I thought it was a bit of over > kill for a dozen or so lists with less than 1000 members each (my guesses > here.) > > > Apart from being a standard, does mailman have killer feature/s > > that these Perl-based ones lack? > > > > /-\ (who can't understand why Python should be better suited to > > writing mailing list manager software than Perl) > > Ergo, my question. I want to be able to fiddle if the need arises. > > > Again thanks, Glad to be of service. At the risk of being labeled a serial mailing list pest, I subscribed to pdx to learn from the overabundance of Perl celebrities clustered in the Portland area: Schwern, Ingy, Ovid, the awkwardly cased chromatic, Allison Randal, Ward Cunningham, Randal Schwartz "with" Tom Phoenix, Tonya Harding, Monica Lewinsky and Josh's Freaky Neighbor (who we all hope never stumbles upon the mailing list archives and so spoil what may well become the longest running joke in Perl mailing list history). BTW, I am eager to learn the titles of JFN's other Perl books, only Cozen's Wrox introductory work being singled out so far. /-\ http://greetings.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Greetings Send your love online with Yahoo! Greetings - FREE! From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Sat Jan 31 16:49:08 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:34:29 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [SOT] perl based software recommendations Message-ID: <33540.130.94.161.146.1075589348.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> > BTW, > I am eager to learn the titles of JFN's other Perl books, only Cozen's > Wrox introductory work being singled out so far. I don't spend too long staring at My Freaky Neighbor. We can only see in there when it's dark, and he can see us just as well. We've kind of assumed that he's hidden webcams and microphones in various places around our house, so we have all resorted to talking in code. You're free to come over and stare at My Freaky Neighbor if you wish... Josh __________________________ 13 portraits in one series of photos, 88 photos total http://www.joshheumann.com