From gabrielle.roth at xo.com Wed Dec 1 16:44:28 2004 From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle) Date: Wed Dec 1 16:44:30 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Book Review: _Nessus Network Auditing_ (long) Message-ID: (It goes without saying this is not an official communique from my employer, I do not speak for my employer, etc etc.) _Nessus Network Auditing_ Deraison, R. et al; Beale, J. ed. Publisher: Syngress ISBN: 1-931836-08-06. 508 pp, $49.94 USA, $69.95 CAN. Official Blurb from O'Reilly: "Nessus is the premier Open Source vulnerability assessment tool, and was recently voted the "most popular" open source security tool of any kind. This is the first book available on Nessus and it is written by the world's premier Nessus developers led by the creator of Nessus, Renaud Deraison.". Intended audience: This book would be great for people who've never used nessus, but have some network & sysadmin experience. This book was of particular interest to me, because I need to learn nessus quick-like. A little more than half the book is useful without having the app in front of you. You will want to have a nessus server & something to test scan to follow along with the chapters on installation, scanning, results interpretation, and writing your own plug-ins. This book is better as a how-to guide than a reference. What I liked: - The layout is easy to follow & you know what's going to come next, which increases the books readability. - *Lots* of good generic security info, especially in the sidebars. For a security newbie, the book is worth reading for that info even if you're not interested in using nessus. - When there's more than one way to do something, the advantages & disadvantages of both are clearly discussed. - Very clear writing style. - Each chapter has a "summary"; a "solutions fasttrack", a bulleted list of the material covered in the chapter; and a FAQ. What needed some help: - Typos & grammatical errors. Yes, I realize some of them are unavoidable, but it seems there is a rush to publish technical material because it's so quickly out-of-date, and quality is sacrificed in that rush. - Key words could have been bolded or italicized on their first introduction to make it easier to find stuff later. - I would have liked to see equivalent attention to the cli as to the GUI, but that may have been beyond the scope of the book. - The index. One of my pet peeves is crappy indexes. I decided to test the index by looking up "database", because about half a chapter was devoted to saving scan results in a database, and that chapter was not listed in the index. Stee-rike one. Bottom line: Worth the price. I bought my own copy today. - gabrielle - vi vi vi...the editor of the beast ----- My chapter-by-chapter notes: Ch 1 Vulnerability assessment Good overview of what a vulnerability assessment is & tools used to find them. Ch2 Introducing Nessus Useful advice on how to choose a security consultant (required reading for PHBs.) Not-too-long paragraph on the history of nessus, but I'm not sure what's useful about the graph of the growth of the nessus user community. Ch3 Installing Nessus Asserts that nessus is "one of the easiest packages to install". Because I will not be installing nessus myself, I independently verified this with a poll. All responders (n=2) disagreed. Great advice about choosing a server - they actually have hard numbers for the specs. =:O The lists of mirrors could probably have been replaced with the URL for the main nessus site (why make the book unneccessarily fatter?) I quit tracking typos/grammatical errors in this chapter. Great reasons to install from source & super-detailed install instructions. Ch4 Running your first scan VERY good advice about getting written permission from Those in Positions of Authority before running *any* scan. Good ammo to use with PHBs about why you should run vuln testing. Info about how to use the GUI; don't be tempted to skip this because there is some good security advice buried in this section. Concise explanation of ip subnetting. Useful plan outline for routine scans. Ch5 Interpreting results Navigating the GUI, how to figure out what you're looking at, some gotchas. Ch6 Vulnerability types Maybe this would have been better after Ch 1, it kind of interrupts the flow here. It seems that "False Positives" (Ch7) would better follow "Interpreting Results" (Ch5). CH7 False Positives Lots of examples. Offers ways to deal with false positives, as the sheer number of them can be enough to put one off vuln testing entirely. Ch8 Under the hood Good overview of how nessus works. Didn't need to have the app in front of me to learn anything from this chapter. Ch9 Knowledge Base Seems like a good overview, would need to follow along at home to really test this one out. Ch10 Enterprise Scanning (this was the most useful chapter in the book) Good info about where to start if you have no idea: what to scan first, how to report it, bandwidth considerations, etc. Good advice about who to warn & how to approach them. Excellent guidelines for approaching a scan in a sc Recommendations about storing scan results in a database (ooh, that is exciting). AND, a list of common problems you might encounter! Grand! Ch11 NASL Introduction to the NASL scripting language. This is hard going without hands-on following along. Ch12 The nessus user community Where to go to get help. More detail than was useful to me. From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Wed Dec 1 17:42:43 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Wed Dec 1 17:42:45 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Book Review: _Nessus Network Auditing_ (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41974.130.94.160.138.1101944563.squirrel@www.joshheumann.com> Thanks, Gabrielle. This review can be found reproduced on the kwiki's book review page: http://pdx.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?BookReviews You'll notice that the book review page is sadly lacking reviews. That's because we haven't gotten any others yet. If you have a book (you know who you are)(and I do, too), you should read and review it. If you're not sure if a book you have belongs to the pdx.pm, they usually sport telltale markings on the page ends that are visible this time of year as the books bulk up for the long winter months. Josh PS. Mongers who are waiting with baited, cheesey-poof breath for the testing code Ovid wrote last month, do not fear. It is on its way. From dpool at hevanet.com Thu Dec 2 10:06:41 2004 From: dpool at hevanet.com (David Pool) Date: Thu Dec 2 10:12:12 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] ITEC Invitation Message-ID: <41AF3D91.3030800@hevanet.com> For those of you who haven't already seen an invitation to the upcoming ITEC convention next week, here is an invitation that can get you a ticket for free (if you wait til you're at the door it'll cost you $50). A number of local open source businesses and consultants have been meeting for several months to put together a group called POSSE - Portland Open Source Software Entrepreneurs. We'll be staffing a booth at the show as one of our first official events. Hope to see you there. David Pool Principal Naked Ape Consulting, Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20041202/ead9cb41/Eticket_POSSE.html From kellert at ohsu.edu Fri Dec 3 18:05:15 2004 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller) Date: Fri Dec 3 18:06:03 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] read and concatenate two lines at a time Message-ID: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Greetings, I need to concatenate every two consecutive lines from a large data file. Is there an easy way to do this? Below is the snippet of what I tried, but it gives errors sometimes - if anyone can point out why it works for some lines and not for others, I'd appreciate that too. Thanks, Tom ######################## while (<>){ chomp; my $line = $_; $line =~ s/\t\./\t1/g; ## substitute "1" for "." values if ( $line =~ /^\w\w\d\d\d\d/) { push @evens, $line; } else { push @odds, $line; } } foreach (0 .. $#evens) { push @unsorted, $evens[$_].$odds[$_]; } __DATA__ Strain N Mean Stdev SEM Sig. (2-tail) Mean Diff Std. Error Diff 95% Confidence Interval of the Difference NG1960 MS11 2 0.8623 0.02024 0.01431 Equal variances assumed 0.459 0.0227 0.02771 -0.05426 0.0996 N400 4 0.8396 0.03505 0.01752 Equal variances not assumed 0.379 0.0227 0.02263 -0.04325 0.08859 NG1961 MS11 4 0.9668 0.03103 0.01552 Equal variances assumed 0.021 -0.1052 0.03402 -0.18841 -0.02192 N400 4 1.072 0.06055 0.03027 Equal variances not assumed 0.031 -0.1052 0.03402 -0.1958 -0.01453 NG1962 MS11 4 0.9962 0.03424 0.01712 Equal variances assumed 0.128 0.0566 0.03214 -0.022 0.13527 N400 4 0.9395 0.0544 0.0272 Equal variances not assumed 0.138 0.0566 0.03214 -0.0257 0.13898 NG1963 MS11 4 1.0225 0.00938 0.00469 Equal variances assumed 0.084 0.1075 0.05185 -0.0194 0.23435 N400 4 0.9151 0.10328 0.05164 Equal variances not assumed 0.128 0.1075 0.05185 -0.05603 0.27098 NG1964 MS11 4 0.8707 0.08042 0.04021 Equal variances assumed 0.179 0.1234 0.08369 -0.06958 0.3164 N400 6 0.7473 0.15171 0.06193 Equal variances not assumed 0.134 0.1234 0.07384 -0.04765 0.29448 NG1965 MS11 4 0.7567 0.06185 0.03092 Equal variances assumed 0.012 0.138 0.03906 0.04241 0.23357 N400 4 0.6187 0.04774 0.02387 Equal variances not assumed 0.014 0.138 0.03906 0.0409 0.23508 NG1966 MS11 4 0.7862 0.04811 0.02405 Equal variances assumed 0.003 0.1633 0.03318 0.08216 0.24453 N400 4 0.6228 0.0457 0.02285 Equal variances not assumed 0.003 0.1633 0.03318 0.08211 0.24458 NG1966.1 MS11 4 1.0201 0.02805 0.01403 Equal variances assumed 0.003 0.0866 0.01769 0.04334 0.12993 N400 4 0.9335 0.02157 0.01079 Equal variances not assumed 0.003 0.0866 0.01769 0.04264 0.13063 NG1967 MS11 4 0.7306 0.1028 0.0514 Equal variances assumed 0.329 0.0568 0.05344 -0.07399 0.18754 N400 4 0.6738 0.02925 0.01463 Equal variances not assumed 0.356 0.0568 0.05344 -0.10071 0.21426 NG1967.1 MS11 4 0.8935 0.06171 0.03085 Equal variances assumed 0.976 -0.0011 0.03541 -0.08776 0.08551 N400 4 0.8946 0.03473 0.01737 Equal variances not assumed 0.976 -0.0011 0.03541 -0.09374 0.09149 NG1968 MS11 4 1.011 0.03947 0.01974 Equal variances assumed 0.014 0.0853 0.02483 0.02456 0.1461 N400 4 0.9257 0.03015 0.01507 Equal variances not assumed 0.015 0.0853 0.02483 0.02353 0.14713 NG1969 MS11 0 . . . N400 0 . . . NG1970 MS11 4 0.787 0.03551 0.01775 Equal variances assumed 0.007 0.0987 0.02465 0.03836 0.15901 N400 4 0.6883 0.03422 0.01711 Equal variances not assumed 0.007 0.0987 0.02465 0.03834 0.15903 NG1971 MS11 4 0.9793 0.10704 0.05352 Equal variances assumed 0.461 0.0426 0.05412 -0.08986 0.17502 N400 4 0.9367 0.01612 0.00806 Equal variances not assumed 0.487 0.0426 0.05412 -0.12552 0.21068 NG1972 MS11 4 1.007 0.07756 0.03878 Equal variances assumed 0.051 0.1047 0.04299 -0.00054 0.20984 N400 4 0.9024 0.03711 0.01856 Equal variances not assumed 0.067 0.1047 0.04299 -0.01144 0.22074 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3568 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20041203/1208ec4e/attachment.bin From ken at cgi101.com Fri Dec 3 22:32:11 2004 From: ken at cgi101.com (Ken Brush) Date: Fri Dec 3 22:32:17 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] read and concatenate two lines at a time In-Reply-To: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> References: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Message-ID: <200412032032.12255.ken@cgi101.com> On Friday 03 December 2004 16:05, Thomas J Keller wrote: > Greetings, > I need to concatenate every two consecutive lines from a large data > file. Is there an easy way to do this? > > Below is the snippet of what I tried, but it gives errors sometimes - > if anyone can point out why it works for some lines and not for others, > I'd appreciate that too. > Thanks, > Tom > ######################## > while (<>){ > chomp; > my $line = $_; > $line =~ s/\t\./\t1/g; ## substitute "1" for "." values > if ( $line =~ /^\w\w\d\d\d\d/) { > push @evens, $line; > } else { > push @odds, $line; > } > } > > foreach (0 .. $#evens) { > push @unsorted, $evens[$_].$odds[$_]; > } > You could just do: while(<>) { chomp; $line = $_ . <>; chomp($line); push(@unsorted, $line); } -Ken From schwern at pobox.com Sat Dec 4 00:22:47 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sat Dec 4 00:22:59 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] read and concatenate two lines at a time In-Reply-To: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> References: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Message-ID: <20041204062247.GE4744@windhund.schwern.org> On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 04:05:15PM -0800, Thomas J Keller wrote: > Greetings, > I need to concatenate every two consecutive lines from a large data > file. Is there an easy way to do this? You're going to feel silly. while(my $entry = <>) { $entry .= <>; $entry =~ s/\n//g; ...do something with $entry... } > Below is the snippet of what I tried, but it gives errors sometimes - The problem is described perfectly by your variable names and the fact that they have nothing to do with what's actually in them. See below. > if anyone can point out why it works for some lines and not for others, Every forth line starts with a tab. You're not taking that into account. > while (<>){ > chomp; > my $line = $_; > $line =~ s/\t\./\t1/g; > > if ( $line =~ /^\w\w\d\d\d\d/) { > push @evens, $line; > } else { > push @odds, $line; > } > } You have two arrays. @evens and @odds. One would presume these contained the even and odd lines of the file. But there's no logic like that in there at all! Instead you're parsing the lines to determine which array they go into. The way I showed above is simpler, but if you wanted to do it more like your original code... while(my $line = <>) { chomp $line; # $. contains the line number of the last filehandle # accessed. if( $. % 2 == 0 ) { # even line push @evens, $line; } else { push @odds, $line; } } But this is more work than you need to do. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ I knew right away that my pants and your inner child could be best friends. From ken at cgi101.com Sun Dec 5 18:34:22 2004 From: ken at cgi101.com (Ken Brush) Date: Tue Dec 7 11:48:26 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] read and concatenate two lines at a time In-Reply-To: <20041204062247.GE4744@windhund.schwern.org> References: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> <20041204062247.GE4744@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <200412051634.23836.ken@cgi101.com> On Friday 03 December 2004 22:22, Michael G Schwern wrote: > On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 04:05:15PM -0800, Thomas J Keller wrote: > > Greetings, > > I need to concatenate every two consecutive lines from a large data > > file. Is there an easy way to do this? > > You're going to feel silly. > > while(my $entry = <>) { > $entry .= <>; > $entry =~ s/\n//g; > > ...do something with $entry... > } > FYI, You can even reduce it by one more operation by doing: while( my $entry = <> . <>) { $entry =~ s/\n//g; ... -Ken From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 7 12:43:42 2004 From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com) Date: Tue Dec 7 12:43:50 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Subroutine Signatures Message-ID: <20041207184343.90347.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, I've released a module to the CPAN which allows subroutine signatures and multi-method dispatch (http://search.cpan.org/~ovid/Sub-Signatures-0.11/). Note this is *alpha* code. It is not yet ready for prime time. Ignoring the fancy terms, it allows you to do this: use Sub::Signatures 'strict'; sub foo($bar, HASH $baz) { return exists $baz->{$bar}; } sub foo($bar, ARRAY $baz) { return grep { $_ eq $bar } @$baz; } Note that those two subs have the same name yet will be called based upon the type and number of arguments (actually, the module defaults to a 'loose' mode where dispatch is based solely on the number of arguments.) With one exception, all feedback I've received has been from people who have apparently have not used the module. If anyone is willing to try this module out (not on production code, obviously :) and give me feedback, I'd be quite grateful! Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.html Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Tue Dec 7 14:41:36 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Tue Dec 7 14:41:38 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting Message-ID: <32919.130.94.161.146.1102452096.squirrel@joshheumann.com> Dear Perlmongery: It has recently come to my attention that I have been laboring under the incorrect notion that the second Wednesday of the month wasn't until next week. However, it's actually tomorrow night. I haven't had time to plan anything for the December meeting yet due to a hectic schedule and a dead laptop, so unless someone is so inclined to step forward and lead a meeting tomorrow night, I would propose that we either move the meeting back a week, or skip a month and maybe try to have two in January (which would be an excellent time to have another round of Lightning Talks). Basically, though, I dropped the ball, and I apologize. Josh From tex at off.org Tue Dec 7 14:48:53 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Tue Dec 7 14:48:58 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting In-Reply-To: <32919.130.94.161.146.1102452096.squirrel@joshheumann.com> References: <32919.130.94.161.146.1102452096.squirrel@joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <20041207204853.GB4432@gblx.net> On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 12:41:36PM -0800, Josh Heumann wrote: > Dear Perlmongery: > > It has recently come to my attention that I have been laboring under the > incorrect notion that the second Wednesday of the month wasn't until next > week. However, it's actually tomorrow night. I haven't had time to plan > anything for the December meeting yet due to a hectic schedule and a dead > laptop, so unless someone is so inclined to step forward and lead a > meeting tomorrow night, I would propose that we either move the meeting > back a week, or skip a month and maybe try to have two in January (which > would be an excellent time to have another round of Lightning Talks). > December has always been a mess, where a significant portion of folks are either gone or busy. Lightning talks in January sounds cool. Austin From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 7 14:52:43 2004 From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com) Date: Tue Dec 7 14:52:47 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting In-Reply-To: <32919.130.94.161.146.1102452096.squirrel@joshheumann.com> Message-ID: <20041207205243.82084.qmail@web60805.mail.yahoo.com> I would not want to skip a meeting this month. Since I restarted PPM, we've not missed a single meeting that I can recall. We're a fairly active PM group, so I think that could set a "broken window" precedent. I'd vote for moving it back a week or having a beer, er, social meeting tomorrow night. Cheers, Ovid --- Josh Heumann wrote: > Dear Perlmongery: > > It has recently come to my attention that I have been laboring under > the > incorrect notion that the second Wednesday of the month wasn't until > next > week. However, it's actually tomorrow night. I haven't had time to > plan > anything for the December meeting yet due to a hectic schedule and a > dead > laptop, so unless someone is so inclined to step forward and lead a > meeting tomorrow night, I would propose that we either move the > meeting > back a week, or skip a month and maybe try to have two in January > (which > would be an excellent time to have another round of Lightning Talks). > > Basically, though, I dropped the ball, and I apologize. > > Josh > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.html Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From merlyn at stonehenge.com Tue Dec 7 15:44:40 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Tue Dec 7 15:44:46 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] read and concatenate two lines at a time In-Reply-To: <200412051634.23836.ken@cgi101.com> References: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> <20041204062247.GE4744@windhund.schwern.org> <200412051634.23836.ken@cgi101.com> Message-ID: <86sm6hhjg7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Ken" == Ken Brush writes: Ken> FYI, You can even reduce it by one more operation by doing: Ken> while( my $entry = <> . <>) { Ken> $entry =~ s/\n//g; Ken> ... Not safely. If the first operation returns undef, to indicate the end of the @ARGV list, the second operation will read a line from STDIN! -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From kellert at ohsu.edu Tue Dec 7 16:09:10 2004 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller) Date: Tue Dec 7 16:09:37 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] read and concatenate two lines at a time In-Reply-To: <86sm6hhjg7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <2CD06416-4588-11D9-A9CC-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> <20041204062247.GE4744@windhund.schwern.org> <200412051634.23836.ken@cgi101.com> <86sm6hhjg7.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <9ED652E8-489C-11D9-BD74-0003930405E2@ohsu.edu> Good point. As it turned out, after capturing the header line, the file was consistent with respect to each subsequent pair of lines "went together". The data did have lots of blanks and odd characters though. This made the sorting task they wanted done prior to separating the line-pairs again more difficult. At the risk of exposing my already battered ego to more bruising, what I decided to do (after concatenating the line-pairs into an unsorted array) was create an array of default values and "fill-in" any blanks with the defaults, then do the sorting via the Schwartzian transform. Then split the lines back to a new file with the correctly sorted pairs of lines. The following worked for this data file: #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warnings; my $header = <>; ## read header line chomp $header; my @keys = split(/\t+/,$header); $keys[0] = "ID"; ## need to add a new element $keys[6] = "variance assumption"; my @new_keys = (@keys[0..5],"Variance Parameter",@keys[6..$#keys]); my @defaults = qw(no_id no_strain 0.0 99 99 99 none 99 99 99 99 99 no_strain 0.0 99 99 99 none 99 99 99 99 99); ## concatenate consecutive pairs of lines my @unsorted; while (my $line = <>){ chomp $line; chomp($line .= <>); ## grab next line $line =~ s/\t\./\t1/g; ## substitute "1" for "." values push @unsorted, $line; ## push consecutive lines } ## fill empty fields with default values my @unsorted_filled; foreach my $line (@unsorted) { my @data = split "\t", $line; foreach (0..$#defaults) { if ($data[$_] eq "0") { ## in case the data contains real 0 values $data[$_] = "0.000"; ## this "zero" won't evaluate to false in boolean comparisons } else { $data[$_] = $data[$_] || $defaults[$_]; } } push @unsorted_filled, join "\t", @data; } ## Sort Data by P-value ## my @sorted = map { $_->[0] } ## return sorted array of lines sort { $a->[1] <=> $b->[1] } ## sort on second value of each tuple map { [$_, (split "\t")[7]] } ## create [line, p-value] tuple as anon. array within array @unsorted_filled; ## from unsorted lines ## Output ## print join("\t", @new_keys), "\n"; foreach (@sorted) { my @data = split("\t",$_); print join("\t", @data[0..11]),"\n"; print join("\t", ($data[0], @data[12..$#data])),"\n"; #print join( "\t", @data), "\n"; } Any other suggestions or warnings gladly accepted. Thanks for your help folks. I very much appreciate it. Tom Keller On Dec 7, 2004, at 1:44 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Ken" == Ken Brush writes: > > Ken> FYI, You can even reduce it by one more operation by doing: > > Ken> while( my $entry = <> . <>) { > Ken> $entry =~ s/\n//g; > Ken> ... > > Not safely. If the first operation returns undef, to indicate the end > of the @ARGV list, the second operation will read a line from STDIN! > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 > 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl > training! > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Tue Dec 7 16:28:37 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Tue Dec 7 16:28:39 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] December Meeting In-Reply-To: <20041207212830.36053.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <33256.130.94.161.146.1102454102.squirrel@joshheumann.com> <20041207212830.36053.qmail@web60804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33186.130.94.161.146.1102458517.squirrel@joshheumann.com> Meeting, meeting, everyone likes the meeting! There will be a meeting tomorrow night, only a purely social one. We will meet at the Lucky Lab (http://www.luckylab.com/), at 7pm tomorrow night. Topics of conversation will range from perl, to line concatenation, and the occasional star wars reference. Directions can be found at http://www.luckylab.com/html/directions.html#brewpub Thanks to Ovid for hosting and saving the meeting, and thus, Christmas. Next month: Get your lightning talk on. What's a lightning talk? Why, here you go, my good monger: http://perl.plover.com/lt/lightning-talks.html Josh From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Tue Dec 7 18:06:12 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Tue Dec 7 18:06:15 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Lightning Talks Message-ID: <33358.130.94.161.146.1102464372.squirrel@joshheumann.com> The lightning talks sign-up sheet is on the kwiki: http://pdx.pm.org/kwiki/index.cgi?January2005Meeting Josh From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Wed Dec 8 13:50:58 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Wed Dec 8 13:51:00 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] [Fwd: O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference] Message-ID: <33256.130.94.161.146.1102535458.squirrel@joshheumann.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference From: "O'Reilly Conferences" Announcing registration is open for the 4th Annual Emerging Technology Conference March 14-17, 2005 in San Diego, CA http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/36/register.html Passionate about technology and its implications? Immerse yourself in a network of like minds at the 2005 O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference, aka ETech. Don't miss out! Early Bird registration has just opened, and economical pricing will be in effect until January 31, 2005. For all the details, visit http://conferences.oreilly.com/etech/ This year's conference theme is "Remix," which infuses ETech's roll-up-your-sleeves tutorials, meaty and to-the-point plenary presentations, and real world focused breakout sessions. Come to ETech and discover how applications and hardware are being deconstructed and recombined in unexpected ways. Learn how accidental developers--users and customers--are influencing new interfaces, devices, business models, and services. Just a few of the intriguing people and projects at the conference include: - Law Professor Lawrence Lessig points the way to an open and remix-able future - Arthur van Hoff, Principal Engineer at TiVo, turns television into an operating system on which to build applications and to which the next level of video content can be delivered - Writer and technologist Cory Doctorow sees the Internet as an ecosystem, parasites and all - Analyst Clay Shirky espouses the value of semi-structured data in rescuing semantics from the Semantic Web - Noted programmer Joel Spolsky infuses character and quality into online communities through software and design choices - Flickr founder Stewart Butterfield opens up, embracing web services and network effects as a startup strategy - Hardware hackers Tom Igoe and Raffi Krikorian build small, simple microcontroller-based network objects - Kathy Sierra brings the latest research in cognitive science, brain chemistry, and psychology to bear on creating passionate users A face-to-face gathering is still one of the best ways of making sure information is more evenly distributed. At ETech, you can learn from the experiences of other attendees, from the projects and prognostications of speakers, and from the products the exhibitors are actually shipping. For complete conference details, visit: http://conferences.oreilly.com/etech/ Press coverage, blogs, photos, and news from the 2004 O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference can be found at: http://www.oreillynet.com/et2004/ For information on exhibition and sponsorship opportunities at O'Reilly conferences, contact Andrew Calvo at (707) 827-7176, or andrewc@oreilly.com. From jamarks at jamarks.com Sat Dec 11 17:55:41 2004 From: jamarks at jamarks.com (James marks) Date: Sat Dec 11 17:55:53 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes Message-ID: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> Hello folks, I've been to a Portland Perl Mongers meeting only once so I'm sure you don't remember me but I'm wondering if any of you could help me with a code problem? I'm relatively new to Perl, coming to it from AppleScript, and I've written a Perl script that parses my server access_log and creates a hash of hashes that looks essentially like this: 192.168.1.1 = $user_agent = "...GoogleBot..." $user_type = "robot" 192.168.1.3 = $user_agent = "...Linux...Firefox..." $user_type = "human" 192.168.1.4 = $user_agent = "...Yahoo! Slurp..." $user_type = "robot" 192.168.1.5 = $user_agent = "...Windows...MSIE..." $user_type = "human" etc... So, in the first hash, the ip address is the key and the value is the second, nested hash. I want to traverse that hash of hashes to extract the user agent of each IP whose user type is "robot" like this: LIST OF ROBOTS VISITING SITE: 192.168.1.1 "...GoogleBot..." 192.168.1.4 "...Yahoo! Slurp..." etc... I've been struggling with various versions of a foreach loop but can't seem to get it to work. Is it possible to traverse a hash of hashes and extract data based on a value from a key/value pair that is nested in another hash? I could just create two hashes, one for humans and one for robots, but one hash that contains all the information seemed to be a more elegant solution... Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1487 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20041211/a3e00e68/attachment.bin From schwern at pobox.com Sat Dec 11 18:14:59 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sat Dec 11 18:15:09 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> Message-ID: <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> On Sat, Dec 11, 2004 at 03:55:41PM -0800, James marks wrote: > I've been to a Portland Perl Mongers meeting only once so I'm sure you > don't remember me but I'm wondering if any of you could help me with a > code problem? I'm relatively new to Perl, coming to it from > AppleScript, and I've written a Perl script that parses my server > access_log and creates a hash of hashes that looks essentially like > this: I think you should start by reading perldsc and perllol man pages which describe working with complex data structures. Chapter 7 of Beginning Perl would also be helpful. http://learn.perl.org/library/beginning_perl/ -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ It should indeed be said that notwithstanding the fact that I make ambulatory progress through the umbragious inter-hill mortality slot, terror sensations will no be initiated in me, due to para-etical phenomena. From jamarks at jamarks.com Sat Dec 11 18:31:59 2004 From: jamarks at jamarks.com (James marks) Date: Sat Dec 11 18:32:09 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> Thank you, Michael. I've read Learning Perl a couple of times and have it open in front of me along with Programming Perl, Perl in a Nutshell, and Perl Cookbook and I'm still unable to find a solution. I'm certainly willing to read but, after working on it for a number of hours now and getting nowhere, I was hoping someone could give me an example that works so I can study it and see a little success. I will keep studying though. Cheers, James On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:14 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > I think you should start by reading perldsc and perllol man pages which > describe working with complex data structures. > > Chapter 7 of Beginning Perl would also be helpful. > http://learn.perl.org/library/beginning_perl/ From schwern at pobox.com Sat Dec 11 18:41:47 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sat Dec 11 18:41:56 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> Message-ID: <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> On Sat, Dec 11, 2004 at 04:31:59PM -0800, James marks wrote: > I've read Learning Perl a couple of times and have it open in front of > me along with Programming Perl, Perl in a Nutshell, and Perl Cookbook > and I'm still unable to find a solution. I'm certainly willing to read > but, after working on it for a number of hours now and getting nowhere, > I was hoping someone could give me an example that works so I can study > it and see a little success. I will keep studying though. "Learning Perl" does not cover references and complex data structures. "Learning Perl: Packages, Refrences, Objects and Modules" does. Programming Perl is not really a tutorial. Perl in a Nutshell is more of a reference. Perl Cookbook contains more complex recepies. The chapter below contains exactly what you need under "Hash of hashes" as does the perldsc man page. I'd recommend reading the Beginning Perl chapter as its better written. > >Chapter 7 of Beginning Perl would also be helpful. > >http://learn.perl.org/library/beginning_perl/ -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ SUBMIT TO MY LOVE, PUNY HUMAN!!! -- http://www.angryflower.com/deberg.gif From jamarks at jamarks.com Sat Dec 11 18:50:56 2004 From: jamarks at jamarks.com (James marks) Date: Sat Dec 11 18:51:17 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: Thanks again, Michael! I'm looking at it now. Cheers, James On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > The chapter below contains exactly what you need under "Hash of > hashes" as > does the perldsc man page. I'd recommend reading the Beginning Perl > chapter as its better written. From pdxpm at punch.net Sat Dec 11 19:54:17 2004 From: pdxpm at punch.net (Tom Heady) Date: Sat Dec 11 19:54:49 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> When I was a newbie, people telling me to read man pages was quite confusing. Especially because I started on windows where there is no "man". You can usually find the perldsc man page here: http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.8.0/pod/perldsc.html but it seems to be down at the moment, so here is another link: http://www.die.net/doc/linux/man/man1/perldsc.1.html These were found be searching for "perldsc" on google. Tom > Thanks again, Michael! > > I'm looking at it now. > > Cheers, > > James > > On Dec 11, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > >> The chapter below contains exactly what you need under "Hash of >> hashes" as >> does the perldsc man page. I'd recommend reading the Beginning Perl >> chapter as its better written. > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sun Dec 12 05:50:41 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sun Dec 12 05:50:53 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> Message-ID: <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Heady writes: Tom> When I was a newbie, people telling me to read man pages was quite confusing. Tom> Especially because I started on windows where there is no "man". Right. Someone should have said "perldoc" instead for you, which has existed on windows as well as unix for quite some time. Tom> You can usually find the perldsc man page here: Tom> http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.8.0/pod/perldsc.html Please, no. Why look OFF your box when the docs are ON your box? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From ben.prew at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 12:38:08 2004 From: ben.prew at gmail.com (Ben Prew) Date: Sun Dec 12 12:38:19 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> On 12 Dec 2004 03:50:41 -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Heady writes: > > Tom> When I was a newbie, people telling me to read man pages was quite confusing. > Tom> Especially because I started on windows where there is no "man". > > Right. Someone should have said "perldoc" instead for you, which has > existed on windows as well as unix for quite some time. > > Tom> You can usually find the perldsc man page here: > Tom> http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.8.0/pod/perldsc.html > > Please, no. Why look OFF your box when the docs are ON your box? Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 > > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! > > > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- Ben Prew ben.prew@gmail.com From darthsmily at verizon.net Sun Dec 12 12:47:18 2004 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Sun Dec 12 12:41:30 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <41BC9236.4050500@verizon.net> Wait..the internet is not on my box? Thats crazy talk, next you'll be telling me it's made up of lots of other computers... Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>>"Tom" == Tom Heady writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > >Tom> When I was a newbie, people telling me to read man pages was quite confusing. >Tom> Especially because I started on windows where there is no "man". > >Right. Someone should have said "perldoc" instead for you, which has >existed on windows as well as unix for quite some time. > >Tom> You can usually find the perldsc man page here: >Tom> http://www.perldoc.com/perl5.8.0/pod/perldsc.html > >Please, no. Why look OFF your box when the docs are ON your box? > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.0 - Release Date: 12/9/2004 From mongers at nwtechops.com Sun Dec 12 13:09:59 2004 From: mongers at nwtechops.com (Steven Adams) Date: Sun Dec 12 13:10:10 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> > Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ Never tried it. What makes perldoc so painful in Windows? -- Steven Adams From ben.prew at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 15:15:41 2004 From: ben.prew at gmail.com (Ben Prew) Date: Sun Dec 12 15:16:10 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> Message-ID: <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:09:59 -0800, Steven Adams wrote: > > > Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ > > Never tried it. What makes perldoc so painful in Windows? Imagine using more, without searching capabilities, without being able to go backwards in a document and only allowed to page over a single page, or having to specify the number of lines you want to move forward. Basically, instead of getting to use 'more' under Linux, you get 'type' under windows. Fortunately, the ActiveState distro comes with .html documentation, which I end up using, so I only use perldoc under windows when I'm forced to, or if I know exactly how many pages down the item I'm looking for is. > > -- > Steven Adams > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list > -- Ben Prew ben.prew@gmail.com From merlyn at stonehenge.com Sun Dec 12 15:29:33 2004 From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) Date: Sun Dec 12 15:29:42 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <86653719z6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> >>>>> "Ben" == Ben Prew writes: >> Please, no. Why look OFF your box when the docs are ON your box? Ben> Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ What kind of pain? It's the same as the man pages on Unix. Or are you just averse to anything that is command-line-ish? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! From schwern at pobox.com Sun Dec 12 15:40:33 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sun Dec 12 15:40:44 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <86653719z6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <86653719z6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> Message-ID: <20041212214032.GA4386@windhund.schwern.org> On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 01:29:33PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > Ben> Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ > > What kind of pain? It's the same as the man pages on Unix. > > Or are you just averse to anything that is command-line-ish? You have obviously never experienced the hell that is the Windows command shell (read: DOS). The world's crappiest pager. The world's crappiest copy & paste and it always takes me five minutes to remember how to coerce it to allow copy/paste. No command line history unless you remember to turn it on. No command suspension. That should be enough to get an idea of the experience. The few times I have to use it for testing MakeMaker I do the minimum I have to do and get the hell out. As much as possible I do via an ssh connection to a Cygwin sshd instead. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ It's Flypaper Licking time! From mongers at nwtechops.com Sun Dec 12 16:36:48 2004 From: mongers at nwtechops.com (Steven Adams) Date: Sun Dec 12 16:37:00 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1102891008.28205.4.camel@main.nwtechops.com> On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 13:15 -0800, Ben Prew wrote: > On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:09:59 -0800, Steven Adams wrote: > > > > > Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ > > > > Never tried it. What makes perldoc so painful in Windows? > > Imagine using more, without searching capabilities, without being able > to go backwards in a document and only allowed to page over a single > page, or having to specify the number of lines you want to move > forward. > > Basically, instead of getting to use 'more' under Linux, you get > 'type' under windows. > > Fortunately, the ActiveState distro comes with .html documentation, > which I end up using, so I only use perldoc under windows when I'm > forced to, or if I know exactly how many pages down the item I'm > looking for is. Set the line buffer to something huge and use the windows scroll bar. -- Steven Adams From pdxpm at punch.net Sun Dec 12 20:09:14 2004 From: pdxpm at punch.net (Tom Heady) Date: Sun Dec 12 20:09:51 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] perldoc ... In-Reply-To: <1102891008.28205.4.camel@main.nwtechops.com> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> <1102891008.28205.4.camel@main.nwtechops.com> Message-ID: <1501.4.10.145.233.1102903754.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> > On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 13:15 -0800, Ben Prew wrote: >> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:09:59 -0800, Steven Adams >> wrote: >> > >> > > Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ >> > >> > Never tried it. What makes perldoc so painful in Windows? >> >> Imagine using more, without searching capabilities, without being able >> to go backwards in a document and only allowed to page over a single >> page, or having to specify the number of lines you want to move >> forward. >> Of course that's even assuming you know what "perldoc" means. The phrase "perldoc perldsc" means nothing to someone that has been programming (*gasp*) vb, or pretty much anything else on windows. For years I had no clue what people were talking about, and I just got my information from web pages and archived news posts. I was estatic when I discovered perldoc.com While we're on the topic or perldoc, I've always wondered about the discoverability of the perl man pages. "man perldsc" or "perldoc perldsc" is not the first thing that would come to my mind if I was searching for information about recursive data structures, and it seems most of the man pages are that way. They have just never made sense to me, coming from a windows world, thus it is never the first place I look for info. Has anyone else had this problem? How did you solve it? You might now be saying "all the beginners pages/books cover this stuff" or something like that, so let me tell you how I started with perl. Around 1996 I wanted a news page on my website. I tried looking for something simple for vb: writing out to a text file. I couldn't afford a book, so I looked online. This should be easy, I thought, and i guess it was so easy no one had any examples that I could find. Of course I had no idea what I was really looking for anyway. Finally I found Matt's script archive and an hour later it was working. I was completely clueless, but I got it to work. That was the beauty of it. As mentioned above, it was not until years later that I learned about "perldoc", and even now I don't use it very often, preferring webpages and newsgroup discussion archives. So, yes, when someone asks a question, I do tend to send them "off their box" because that where I look, and where I get my information. Tom From darthsmily at verizon.net Sun Dec 12 20:20:06 2004 From: darthsmily at verizon.net (darthsmily) Date: Sun Dec 12 20:14:17 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <20041212214032.GA4386@windhund.schwern.org> References: <2A4141D8-4BD0-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <86653719z6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20041212214032.GA4386@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <41BCFC56.4010508@verizon.net> Just put of curiosity, have you used the Dos shell in the last 5 years? "The world's crappiest pager." Not sure what you mean. Do you mean in Edit? Or do you mean if a bunch of stuff exceede the preset command buffer in the window? Like doing a dir /s? Just up the buffer. "The world's crappiest copy & paste and it always takes me five minutes to remember how to coerce it to allow copy/paste." High light right click to copy, right click to paste. Or highlight hit enter to copy. Now reminde me, what does one need to do in Linux to copy text out of one shell and paste it in another? Cuse tio always takes me 5 minutes to figure that out. I am thinking it may just be me. "No command line history unless you remember to turn it on." On by default since at least Win2k 98 sp may have has it on be default, don't remember. "No command suspension." You like the pause button? or like the Pause batch command.? darth Michael G Schwern wrote: >On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 01:29:33PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: > > >>Ben> Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ >> >>What kind of pain? It's the same as the man pages on Unix. >> >>Or are you just averse to anything that is command-line-ish? >> >> > >You have obviously never experienced the hell that is the Windows command >shell (read: DOS). > >The world's crappiest pager. >The world's crappiest copy & paste and it always takes me five minutes to > remember how to coerce it to allow copy/paste. >No command line history unless you remember to turn it on. >No command suspension. > >That should be enough to get an idea of the experience. > >The few times I have to use it for testing MakeMaker I do the minimum I >have to do and get the hell out. As much as possible I do via an ssh >connection to a Cygwin sshd instead. > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.0 - Release Date: 12/9/2004 From schwern at pobox.com Sun Dec 12 21:25:19 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Sun Dec 12 21:25:32 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <41BCFC56.4010508@verizon.net> References: <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <86653719z6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20041212214032.GA4386@windhund.schwern.org> <41BCFC56.4010508@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20041213032519.GA6433@windhund.schwern.org> Caveat: Most of my Windows experience is with Win98. Its my game plus portability testing machine. On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 06:20:06PM -0800, darthsmily wrote: > Just put of curiosity, have you used the Dos shell in the last 5 years? > > "The world's crappiest pager." > > Not sure what you mean. Do you mean in Edit? No, I mean something like "less" or "more" on Unix. Something that you can run the output of a program through and "page" through the text with the arrow keys and space bar. Something you can use to search through the text. Something you can use to move both backwards and forwards through a wad of text. IIRC the Win98 pager cannot go backwards. I don't remember if it can search or not. > Or do you mean if a bunch of stuff exceede the preset command buffer in > the window? Like doing a dir /s? > Just up the buffer. Many Perl man pages are hundreds if not thousands of lines long. Most importantly, if you use the scroll buffer you cannot search within the text ("visual grep" does not count). > "The world's crappiest copy & paste and it always takes me five minutes > to remember how to coerce it to allow copy/paste." > > High light right click to copy, right click to paste. Or highlight hit > enter to copy. > Now reminde me, what does one need to do in Linux to copy text out of > one shell and paste it in another? Cuse tio always takes me 5 minutes to > figure that out. I am thinking it may just be me. Maybe they finally made this easier in Win2K but I can never get it to work in any way that makes sense to me in Win98. All the normal Windows copy/paste conventions don't seem to apply. > "No command line history unless you remember to turn it on." > > On by default since at least Win2k 98 sp may have has it on be default, > don't remember. Its not on in Win98 SE. I'm glad it only took until the year 2000 to implement this advanced shell feature. ;) > "No command suspension." > > You like the pause button? or like the Pause batch command.? *face in hands* No. Like ctrl-z on a Unix shell. Put one command in the background, run another in the foreground. For example, you run "perldoc perldsc" and it references "perldata". On Unix you can suspend your current program (perldoc) by typing (ctrl-z) to get back to the shell and then run another (perldoc perldata). Once you're done with that you can quit or suspend that program and go back to your first one. Or you run perldoc, find some code. Copy it. Suspend perldoc. Try the code out in a one-liner. Then go back to where you were in perldoc. Little things like these are the critical reasons why the command line has perservered in the Unix world. Doesn't sound like much but they're extraordinarily powerful and extremely flexible. I've found most DOS users don't get what's so important about the Unix shell because they don't grok features like command suspension, piping and redirection. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ Fuck with me and I will saw off your legs. http://www.unamerican.com/ From dennis at giantfir.com Mon Dec 13 00:48:16 2004 From: dennis at giantfir.com (Dennis McNulty) Date: Mon Dec 13 00:47:57 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] traversing (and accessing values in) a hash of hashes In-Reply-To: <20041213032519.GA6433@windhund.schwern.org> References: <20041212001459.GA13902@windhund.schwern.org> <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <86653719z6.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <20041212214032.GA4386@windhund.schwern.org> <41BCFC56.4010508@verizon.net> <20041213032519.GA6433@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <41BD3B30.8040001@giantfir.com> It seems that we're adding to the ferocity of Mt St. Helens, here. I can tell you my experience. I've programmed in perl on a number of MS-Win and Linux systems, but I've never used perldoc to see documentation. My favorite for MS-Win is the port from ActiveState, because all the documentation has been converted to HTML and displays uniformly across all Win versions in a Web browser. Then the perldsc doc page is available just by clicking a link on the index frame. You can scroll up and down a help page with mouse or keyboard. For Linux (specifically Mandrake), I use the KDE help center and go to the Linux Manual pages section for documentation. The display and scrolling usear actions are mostly the same as for a browser. The only disadvantage is that you have to know which "man" page the topic is classified under. As to DOS boxes on MS-Win: In the 9x series, a box can't be enlarged beyond 24x80 and there's no scrollback capability. In NT, 2000 and XP, the box can be enlarged to even beyond the screen size, although I don't know what the upper limits are. In my everyday work on Win2K, I set the display size to 26x132 and the scroll size to 1000x132. - Dennis McNulty ==================================================================== Michael G Schwern wrote: >Caveat: Most of my Windows experience is with Win98. Its my game plus >portability testing machine. > > >On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 06:20:06PM -0800, darthsmily wrote: > > >>Just put of curiosity, have you used the Dos shell in the last 5 years? >> >>"The world's crappiest pager." >> >>Not sure what you mean. Do you mean in Edit? >> >> > >No, I mean something like "less" or "more" on Unix. Something that you >can run the output of a program through and "page" through the text >with the arrow keys and space bar. Something you can use to search >through the text. Something you can use to move both backwards and >forwards through a wad of text. > >IIRC the Win98 pager cannot go backwards. I don't remember if it can >search or not. > > > > >>Or do you mean if a bunch of stuff exceede the preset command buffer in >>the window? Like doing a dir /s? >>Just up the buffer. >> >> > >Many Perl man pages are hundreds if not thousands of lines long. > >Most importantly, if you use the scroll buffer you cannot search within the >text ("visual grep" does not count). > > > > >>"The world's crappiest copy & paste and it always takes me five minutes >>to remember how to coerce it to allow copy/paste." >> >>High light right click to copy, right click to paste. Or highlight hit >>enter to copy. >>Now reminde me, what does one need to do in Linux to copy text out of >>one shell and paste it in another? Cuse tio always takes me 5 minutes to >>figure that out. I am thinking it may just be me. >> >> > >Maybe they finally made this easier in Win2K but I can never get it to work >in any way that makes sense to me in Win98. All the normal Windows copy/paste >conventions don't seem to apply. > > > > >>"No command line history unless you remember to turn it on." >> >>On by default since at least Win2k 98 sp may have has it on be default, >>don't remember. >> >> > >Its not on in Win98 SE. I'm glad it only took until the >year 2000 to implement this advanced shell feature. ;) > > > > >>"No command suspension." >> >>You like the pause button? or like the Pause batch command.? >> >> > >*face in hands* No. Like ctrl-z on a Unix shell. Put one command in >the background, run another in the foreground. For example, you run >"perldoc perldsc" and it references "perldata". On Unix you can >suspend your current program (perldoc) by typing (ctrl-z) to get back >to the shell and then run another (perldoc perldata). Once you're done >with that you can quit or suspend that program and go back to your >first one. > >Or you run perldoc, find some code. Copy it. Suspend perldoc. Try the >code out in a one-liner. Then go back to where you were in perldoc. > >Little things like these are the critical reasons why the command line >has perservered in the Unix world. Doesn't sound like much but they're >extraordinarily powerful and extremely flexible. I've found most DOS users >don't get what's so important about the Unix shell because they don't grok >features like command suspension, piping and redirection. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20041212/5ade0385/attachment.htm From tex at off.org Mon Dec 13 13:00:09 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Dec 13 13:00:22 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] perldoc ... In-Reply-To: <1501.4.10.145.233.1102903754.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> References: <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> <1102891008.28205.4.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <1501.4.10.145.233.1102903754.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> Message-ID: <20041213190008.GF30155@gblx.net> On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 06:09:14PM -0800, Tom Heady wrote: > > On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 13:15 -0800, Ben Prew wrote: > >> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:09:59 -0800, Steven Adams > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ > >> > > >> > Never tried it. What makes perldoc so painful in Windows? > >> > >> Imagine using more, without searching capabilities, without being able > >> to go backwards in a document and only allowed to page over a single > >> page, or having to specify the number of lines you want to move > >> forward. > >> > > > Of course that's even assuming you know what "perldoc" means. The phrase > "perldoc perldsc" means nothing to someone that has been programming > (*gasp*) vb, or pretty much anything else on windows. For years I had no > clue what people were talking about, and I just got my information from > web pages and archived news posts. I was estatic when I discovered > perldoc.com Ok, here's a dumb question - I thankfully never use perl on windows. Doesn't the install put html formated manual pages somewhere? Looking through the html equivalent to `perldoc perl` with a web browser doesn't sound too horrendous. Austin From keithl at kl-ic.com Mon Dec 13 12:24:22 2004 From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom) Date: Mon Dec 13 13:15:44 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Want good examples of perl application installs In-Reply-To: <200412131800.iBDI0Op3023144@www.pm.org> References: <200412131800.iBDI0Op3023144@www.pm.org> Message-ID: <20041213182422.GB29775@gate.kl-ic.com> I am managing "dirvish", a perl wrapper around a rsync for disk-to-disk backup ( see http://www.samag.com/documents/s=9464/sam0501b/ and http://www.dirvish.org ) Some of my developers are getting fiesty about changing the "install.sh" install process to something involving "make" (using Automake and Libtool) , which fixes some things (but does not address other important install issues). Can someone suggest some examples of small ( 2000 line ), highly configurable stand-alone perl applications that have exemplary install procedures? I will probably tell the developers to go ahead with whatever they want to do, but I would like to know what the alternatives are; if there is something clearly superior, I would like to suggest it to my developers. Keith P.S. New to the list, only lurking for a week. I know some of you folks from PLUG; for the rest, howdy! I am a perl newbie, and scrambling like mad to learn perl from Randal's books and others. Dirvish contains some "hashes of references of hashes" level code, a little involuted and complicated and "just growed", but otherwise pretty lemonade, uncommented [ :-( ] perl. -- Keith Lofstrom keithl@keithl.com Voice (503)-520-1993 KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon" Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Scan ICs From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 13:55:05 2004 From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Dec 13 13:55:15 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool Message-ID: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, Someone on this list (Schwern?) was telling me about an XP project management tool they were using, but I can't recall the name of it. Can anyone make recommendations? Preferably it would be something that fits well with XP philosophy (thus ruling out MS Project and similar things.) Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.html Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From schwern at pobox.com Mon Dec 13 14:42:40 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Dec 13 14:42:44 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Want good examples of perl application installs In-Reply-To: <20041213182422.GB29775@gate.kl-ic.com> References: <200412131800.iBDI0Op3023144@www.pm.org> <20041213182422.GB29775@gate.kl-ic.com> Message-ID: <20041213204240.GE9291@windhund.schwern.org> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 10:24:22AM -0800, Keith Lofstrom wrote: > I am managing "dirvish", a perl wrapper around a rsync for disk-to-disk > backup ( see http://www.samag.com/documents/s=9464/sam0501b/ and > http://www.dirvish.org ) Some of my developers are getting fiesty > about changing the "install.sh" install process to something involving > "make" (using Automake and Libtool) , which fixes some things (but does > not address other important install issues). > > Can someone suggest some examples of small ( 2000 line ), highly > configurable stand-alone perl applications that have exemplary install > procedures? I will probably tell the developers to go ahead with > whatever they want to do, but I would like to know what the alternatives > are; if there is something clearly superior, I would like to suggest it > to my developers. I don't think this is what you're looking for, but I never miss a chance to advertise PAR. Basically create stand-alone Perl archives/executables. http://search.cpan.org/dist/PAR/ With PAR you can, for example, ship a single file Windows executable that contains the perl interpreter, your program and any Perl modules your program needs. It can also create cross-platform executables which is just your program and all its dependencies (umm, provided they don't need XS) in a single file to avoid module installation hell. Otherwise... having a look at your tarball... its very straight forward. Here's my initial notes. * A tarball named dirvish_1.2.orig.tar.gz should unpack into a directory named dirvish_1.2.orig/ or dirvish_1.2/ not Dirvish-1.2/. Its a little thing but try to make the tarball name and directory match. It saves a moment of "I just unpacked it, where the hell is it?" and it gives the impression of amaturism. * Having a Perl program install itself using a shell program is kinda silly. If nothing else, write install.pl. So there's nothing off the top of my head that is as user friendly as your install.sh, but there's ways to normalize the way you've got things set up there. * move the programs into a bin/ directory just to clean things up a bit. Move loadconfig.pl into lib/. I was initially very confused about that file. * Write the docs as POD instead of (possibly hand written??) nroff and attach them to the programs they're documenting. The man pages will be generated. * Use a basic Makefile.PL or Build.PL to handle the installation. Now you're normalized with the rest of the Perl world. EXE_FILES is what you're looking for. * Rewrite install.sh as a thin wrapper around the Makefile.PL to preserve that nice question/answer session. This unfortunately creates a dependency on A) make or B) Module::Build. I was "typing out loud" so I hope some of this is helpful. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ Me? A robot? That's rediculous! For one thing, that doesn't compute at all! From tex at off.org Mon Dec 13 14:49:25 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Mon Dec 13 14:49:30 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Want good examples of perl application installs In-Reply-To: <20041213204240.GE9291@windhund.schwern.org> References: <200412131800.iBDI0Op3023144@www.pm.org> <20041213182422.GB29775@gate.kl-ic.com> <20041213204240.GE9291@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <20041213204925.GG30155@gblx.net> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 03:42:40PM -0500, Michael G Schwern wrote: > > * Rewrite install.sh as a thin wrapper around the Makefile.PL to preserve > that nice question/answer session. > > This unfortunately creates a dependency on A) make or B) Module::Build. > I've been thinking about bundling M::B with my packages so that I don't have to worry about M::B not being installed anywhere or the installed version being incompatible with my Build.PL file. The former issue where M::B isn't installed is pretty annoying if you end up trying to install someplace where CPAN isn't readily available. That said, M::B still has some issues that are actively being worked on, such as the lack of an 'uninstall' option. Austin From schwern at pobox.com Mon Dec 13 15:01:22 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Dec 13 15:01:35 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 11:55:05AM -0800, publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com wrote: > Someone on this list (Schwern?) was telling me about an XP project > management tool they were using, but I can't recall the name of it. > Can anyone make recommendations? Preferably it would be something that > fits well with XP philosophy (thus ruling out MS Project and similar > things.) XPlanner. http://www.xplanner.org The screenshots pretty much say it all (though I believe those are still a few versions behind). http://www.xplanner.org/screenshots.html Particularly this one. http://www.xplanner.org/images/screenshots/statistics.jpg Red is work done on this iteration. Blue is work estimated on this iteration. Your estimates are continually updated over the course of the iteration. If you blow over an estimate XPlanner makes you reestimate upwards. When the two lines meet, you're done. You can do clever extrapolations of the curves to figure out when they will meet to provide an estimate for this iteration. If the blue line is going up, either your estimates were wrong or you've been adding tasks to the iteration. If the lines aren't converging you'll never finish. This is a great graphic to show to a manager. "Look, if you keep piling on features we'll never get this thing done!" And there's a SOAP interface so you can automate access to it. http://www.xplanner.org/soap.html And some intrepid soul deserving of our unending praise wrote the beginnings of a Perl module to talk to it. http://search.cpan.org/dist/XPlanner/ PS Its in Java and needs Jakarta (ie. Tomcat). I got it running on Linux without too much trouble. The trick is it needs Tomcat >= 5. I think I also used Sun's JVM. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ Try to look unimportant; they may be low on ammo. From schwern at pobox.com Mon Dec 13 15:05:30 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Dec 13 15:05:35 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Want good examples of perl application installs In-Reply-To: <20041213204925.GG30155@gblx.net> References: <200412131800.iBDI0Op3023144@www.pm.org> <20041213182422.GB29775@gate.kl-ic.com> <20041213204240.GE9291@windhund.schwern.org> <20041213204925.GG30155@gblx.net> Message-ID: <20041213210530.GI9291@windhund.schwern.org> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 12:49:25PM -0800, Austin Schutz wrote: > That said, M::B still has some issues that are actively being worked > on, such as the lack of an 'uninstall' option. Well, MakeMaker doesn't really have one either. It pretends it does though. :) -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ Operation Thrusting Peach From david at kineticode.com Mon Dec 13 19:19:11 2004 From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler) Date: Mon Dec 13 19:19:17 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> On Dec 13, 2004, at 1:01 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > XPlanner. > http://www.xplanner.org From the installation guide: > MySQL is the preferred XPlanner relational database. Configure MySQL > with transacted tables (InnoDB)! (See also: other databases.) That is to say, the preferred relational database does not enforce relational integrity (can that be called relational?). And if you want to support other databases, simply edit the handy-dandy XML configuration file. No thanks. I'll just whip up something in FileMaker Pro for now. It'll probably take less time and be more relational. ;-) Cheers, David From pdxpm at punch.net Mon Dec 13 19:40:39 2004 From: pdxpm at punch.net (Tom Heady) Date: Mon Dec 13 19:41:17 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] perldoc ... In-Reply-To: <20041213190008.GF30155@gblx.net> References: <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> <1102891008.28205.4.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <1501.4.10.145.233.1102903754.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <20041213190008.GF30155@gblx.net> Message-ID: <1911.208.20.213.2.1102988439.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> > On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 06:09:14PM -0800, Tom Heady wrote: >> > On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 13:15 -0800, Ben Prew wrote: >> >> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:09:59 -0800, Steven Adams >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Because using perldoc in the Windows command line is _painful_ >> >> > >> >> > Never tried it. What makes perldoc so painful in Windows? >> >> >> >> Imagine using more, without searching capabilities, without being >> >> able to go backwards in a document and only allowed to page over a >> >> single page, or having to specify the number of lines you want to >> >> move forward. >> >> >> >> >> Of course that's even assuming you know what "perldoc" means. The >> phrase "perldoc perldsc" means nothing to someone that has been >> programming (*gasp*) vb, or pretty much anything else on windows. For >> years I had no clue what people were talking about, and I just got my >> information from web pages and archived news posts. I was estatic >> when I discovered perldoc.com > > Ok, here's a dumb question - I thankfully never use perl on windows. > Doesn't the install put html formated manual pages somewhere? Looking > through the html equivalent to `perldoc perl` with a web browser > doesn't sound too horrendous. > > Austin Yes, activestate does install html docs, and I do use them if I know what I am looking for. Frequently, I don't know which doc page I am looking for. Being able to search perldoc.com has helped a lot when that is the case. From chromatic at wgz.org Mon Dec 13 19:45:19 2004 From: chromatic at wgz.org (chromatic) Date: Mon Dec 13 19:46:22 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> Message-ID: <1102988719.30836.46.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 17:19 -0800, David E. Wheeler wrote: > > MySQL is the preferred XPlanner relational database. Configure MySQL > > with transacted tables (InnoDB)! (See also: other databases.) > > That is to say, the preferred relational database does not enforce > relational integrity (can that be called relational?). Have you actually tried MySQL 4.1 with an InnoDB table? How about a 4.0.x from later than, say, May 2004? I'm trying to divide the world into people who've actually tried real applications and failed recently and people who haven't. -- c From mongers at nwtechops.com Mon Dec 13 20:21:24 2004 From: mongers at nwtechops.com (Steven Adams) Date: Mon Dec 13 20:21:32 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] perldoc ... In-Reply-To: <20041213190008.GF30155@gblx.net> References: <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> <1102891008.28205.4.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <1501.4.10.145.233.1102903754.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <20041213190008.GF30155@gblx.net> Message-ID: <1102990884.31959.6.camel@main.nwtechops.com> On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 11:00 -0800, Austin Schutz wrote: > Ok, here's a dumb question - I thankfully never use perl on windows. > Doesn't the install put html formated manual pages somewhere? Looking through > the html equivalent to `perldoc perl` with a web browser doesn't sound too > horrendous. Perldoc is an interesting tool. For one it will format and output that funny looking commented text at the bottom of well written perl code (in man'ish format). This is important since, for the most part, you'll not find html documentation on a specific module or script included with the perl distribution if it's not part of that original dist. -- Steven Adams From jeff at vpservices.com Mon Dec 13 12:31:24 2004 From: jeff at vpservices.com (Jeff Zucker) Date: Mon Dec 13 20:38:50 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] perldoc ... In-Reply-To: <1102990884.31959.6.camel@main.nwtechops.com> References: <3C796100-4BD5-11D9-A224-000A956EF5EC@jamarks.com> <20041212004146.GD13902@windhund.schwern.org> <7042.204.203.49.119.1102816457.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <86hdmr20ry.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <24f4b2e8041212103820819d3@mail.gmail.com> <1102878599.19790.3.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <24f4b2e804121213157ba3ba1d@mail.gmail.com> <1102891008.28205.4.camel@main.nwtechops.com> <1501.4.10.145.233.1102903754.squirrel@mail.snapmedical.com> <20041213190008.GF30155@gblx.net> <1102990884.31959.6.camel@main.nwtechops.com> Message-ID: <41BDDFFC.9020501@vpservices.com> Steven Adams wrote: > On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 11:00 -0800, Austin Schutz wrote: > > >> Ok, here's a dumb question - I thankfully never use perl on windows. >>Doesn't the install put html formated manual pages somewhere? > for the most part, you'll not > find html documentation on a specific module or script included with the > perl distribution if it's not part of that original dist. That's not true, if you have ActiveState, it will install the HTML docs for all modules in the distributrion *and* for all modules installed later with ppm. And they're searchable, by the usual explorer search interface. Windows sucks, but let's not exagerate. A nice summary of "Perl documentation documentation" can be found at http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=408254 -- Jeff (aka jZed) From david at kineticode.com Mon Dec 13 20:48:48 2004 From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler) Date: Mon Dec 13 20:48:54 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <1102988719.30836.46.camel@localhost> References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> <1102988719.30836.46.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2004, at 5:45 PM, chromatic wrote: > Have you actually tried MySQL 4.1 with an InnoDB table? How about a > 4.0.x from later than, say, May 2004? The point is that the application require that you *don't* use InnoDB. I wouldn't use MySQL without referential integrity, transactions, etc. > I'm trying to divide the world into people who've actually tried real > applications and failed recently and people who haven't. I haven't used it, no, because until 4.1, MySQL didn't support Unicode. And now I'm starting to use views and triggers or rules more and more not to mention functions, and MySQL doesn't support those, either. Regards, David From schwern at pobox.com Mon Dec 13 23:12:02 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Dec 13 23:12:16 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> <1102988719.30836.46.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20041214051202.GC24905@windhund.schwern.org> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 06:48:48PM -0800, David E. Wheeler wrote: > On Dec 13, 2004, at 5:45 PM, chromatic wrote: > > >Have you actually tried MySQL 4.1 with an InnoDB table? How about a > >4.0.x from later than, say, May 2004? > > The point is that the application require that you *don't* use InnoDB. Huh? XPlanner explicitly asks for InnoDB. More importantly, why do you care what XPlanner uses? That's like saying, "I won't use Foo. Its written in Python." These are internal issues that won't matter one bit to the end user! If I was to be worried about any of the technical details of XPlanner it would be that its written in Java and thus I, personally, wouldn't know how to fix it. But I use lots of programs that are written in languages I don't understand and probably using internal techiques I'd consider questionable. We now return to the MySQL FUD, already in progress. > I wouldn't use MySQL without referential integrity, transactions, etc. InnoDB supplies transactions and referential integrity. > >I'm trying to divide the world into people who've actually tried real > >applications and failed recently and people who haven't. > > I haven't used it, no, because until 4.1, MySQL didn't support Unicode. It supports UCS-2 and UTF8 now. http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/Charset-Unicode.html > And now I'm starting to use views and triggers or rules more and more > not to mention functions, and MySQL doesn't support those, either. Rudimentary support for triggers is in 5.0.2. http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/Triggers.html Views were added in 5.0.1 http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/CREATE_VIEW.html By "rule" do you mean "constraint"? MySQL doesn't appear to have them. Its something I do miss. Functions and procedures are in. C-based functions have been there for a while. Not sure when user defined procedures went in. http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/CREATE_PROCEDURE.html -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ The desired effect is what you get when you improve your interplanetary funksmanship. From david at kineticode.com Mon Dec 13 23:23:01 2004 From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler) Date: Mon Dec 13 23:23:11 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214051202.GC24905@windhund.schwern.org> References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> <1102988719.30836.46.camel@localhost> <20041214051202.GC24905@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <394E9EB2-4D90-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> On Dec 13, 2004, at 9:12 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: >> The point is that the application require that you *don't* use InnoDB. > > Huh? XPlanner explicitly asks for InnoDB. D'oh! My lysdexia must've kicked in. I saw "no InnoDB". /me eats crow. > More importantly, why do you care what XPlanner uses? That's like > saying, > "I won't use Foo. Its written in Python." These are internal issues > that > won't matter one bit to the end user! I was just amused that it appeared to say that it's preferred relational database was not, erm, relational. Again, I misread. > If I was to be worried about any of the technical details of XPlanner > it > would be that its written in Java and thus I, personally, wouldn't know > how to fix it. But I use lots of programs that are written in > languages > I don't understand and probably using internal techiques I'd consider > questionable. Agreed. That's why I use Mail (for now). > We now return to the MySQL FUD, already in progress. s/in progress/in postgres/; # ;-) > It supports UCS-2 and UTF8 now. > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/Charset-Unicode.html Yes, I know. >> And now I'm starting to use views and triggers or rules more and more >> not to mention functions, and MySQL doesn't support those, either. > > Rudimentary support for triggers is in 5.0.2. > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/Triggers.html I haven't tried the triggers yet. > Views were added in 5.0.1 > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/CREATE_VIEW.html I tried them, but their magic auto-updateness didn't work for any but the simplest examples. But it's early yet. I'll look again when they're a little closer to release. > By "rule" do you mean "constraint"? MySQL doesn't appear to have them. > Its something I do miss. No, I mean RULEs, which are slightly different to but similar to triggers. In PostgreSQL, you attach rules to views so that you can execute update, insert, and deletes against them. SQLite does the same thing but uses triggers. > Functions and procedures are in. C-based functions have been there for > a while. Not sure when user defined procedures went in. > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/CREATE_PROCEDURE.html About time. I don't see a version number reference there, though. But 5.0 is shaping up to be an interesting release. I look forward to seeing it late next year. Cheers, David From schwern at pobox.com Mon Dec 13 23:33:24 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Mon Dec 13 23:33:33 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <394E9EB2-4D90-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> <1102988719.30836.46.camel@localhost> <20041214051202.GC24905@windhund.schwern.org> <394E9EB2-4D90-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> Message-ID: <20041214053323.GA25316@windhund.schwern.org> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 09:23:01PM -0800, David E. Wheeler wrote: > I was just amused that it appeared to say that it's preferred > relational database was not, erm, relational. Again, I misread. I really hate this dig against MySQL. Its right up there with "Perl isn't Object-Oriented" and for the same reasons. You don't have to ENFORCE relationships to be relational in the same way that you don't have to ENFORCE privacy to be object-oriented. > About time. I don't see a version number reference there, though. But > 5.0 is shaping up to be an interesting release. I look forward to > seeing it late next year. 5.0 looks to be the "everything everybody always makes fun of MySQL for not having" release. Clustering is another thing RSN. Hope they can pull it off. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ If you like stomach viruses, this is the movie for you. -- "Review of 'The Secret Lives of Dentists'" From david at kineticode.com Mon Dec 13 23:44:52 2004 From: david at kineticode.com (David E. Wheeler) Date: Mon Dec 13 23:45:00 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214053323.GA25316@windhund.schwern.org> References: <20041213195506.34679.qmail@web60803.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213210122.GG9291@windhund.schwern.org> <28D13B8E-4D6E-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> <1102988719.30836.46.camel@localhost> <20041214051202.GC24905@windhund.schwern.org> <394E9EB2-4D90-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> <20041214053323.GA25316@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <46A663DA-4D93-11D9-8125-000A95B9602E@kineticode.com> On Dec 13, 2004, at 9:33 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > I really hate this dig against MySQL. Its right up there with "Perl > isn't > Object-Oriented" and for the same reasons. > > You don't have to ENFORCE relationships to be relational in the same > way > that you don't have to ENFORCE privacy to be object-oriented. Agreed. I specifically pointed to the enforcement of referential integrity earlier, but got lazier in my second message to you. >> About time. I don't see a version number reference there, though. But >> 5.0 is shaping up to be an interesting release. I look forward to >> seeing it late next year. > > 5.0 looks to be the "everything everybody always makes fun of MySQL for > not having" release. Clustering is another thing RSN. Hope they can > pull > it off. We shall see. I'm optimistic about it. In the meantime, PostgreSQL and SQLite rock for the work I'm doing. Cheers, David From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 00:07:43 2004 From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com) Date: Tue Dec 14 00:07:51 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214053323.GA25316@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <20041214060743.44125.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> --- Michael G Schwern wrote: > I really hate this dig against MySQL. Its right up there with "Perl > isn't Object-Oriented" and for the same reasons. > > You don't have to ENFORCE relationships to be relational in the same > way that you don't have to ENFORCE privacy to be object-oriented. True. You can also drive a car and be a rotten driver. (I speak from humiliating personal driving experience.) MySQL is finally getting to the point where it's not a toy. For serious database work it's been a toy for a long, long time. Regrettably, I've worked with far too many developers who've never needed a real database and thus have no way realizing MySQL's serious limitations. It's like a BASIC programmer saying "who needs recursion?" or a Java programmer saying closures are useless (I've heard both.) Not enforcing relationships falls into the "big bucket of suck" category, but the MySQL developers -- to their credit -- seem determined to climb out of that bucket. We can only pray MySQL fans follow :) Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.html Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From tex at off.org Tue Dec 14 13:51:25 2004 From: tex at off.org (Austin Schutz) Date: Tue Dec 14 13:51:37 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214060743.44125.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041214053323.GA25316@windhund.schwern.org> <20041214060743.44125.qmail@web60806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041214195125.GH30155@gblx.net> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 10:07:43PM -0800, publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com wrote: > --- Michael G Schwern wrote: > > I really hate this dig against MySQL. Its right up there with "Perl > > isn't Object-Oriented" and for the same reasons. > > > > You don't have to ENFORCE relationships to be relational in the same > > way that you don't have to ENFORCE privacy to be object-oriented. > > True. You can also drive a car and be a rotten driver. (I speak from > humiliating personal driving experience.) > > MySQL is finally getting to the point where it's not a toy. For > serious database work it's been a toy for a long, long time. We've been using MySQL 3.x for years in a production database which supports tens of thousands of inserts/updates per minute and stays lightning fast for queries. It isn't absolutely bulletproof - it seems to hang about once a year. For those of us that can afford the "perl style" of its relational model, it's worked quite well. I agree with all the other points about MySQL not supporting advanced database features, at least for earlier versions - but I don't care. That's the beauty of having so many options for relational database. We run Oracle where relational self flagellation matters. I disagree with the "toy" assessment. I guess that's my point. :-) Austin From publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 14:39:48 2004 From: publiustemp-pdxpm at yahoo.com (publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com) Date: Tue Dec 14 14:39:57 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214195125.GH30155@gblx.net> Message-ID: <20041214203949.76638.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> --- Austin Schutz wrote: > I disagree with the "toy" assessment. I guess that's my point. :-) > When I first started programming in the early 80s, BASIC was a serious business language. As business required more, the limitations of BASIC became apparent. Frankly, BASIC would work for many of the smaller applications out there, it just wouldn't be the best choice. If most other languages cost a ton of money, though, BASIC would have a strong following (as it did when it came free with many computers.) I can't prove it, but I'm willing to be that many of those BASIC programmers would fiercely defend their choice of language. And you know what? They would be right. If BASIC was the only free language most programmers would know BASIC and it would be a ubiquitous tool with programmers touting the CBAN to handle much of the heavy lifting. If that's the tool available, that's fine and there's nothing wrong with it, but few would really argue that BASIC can hold a candle to Perl or other modern programming languages. If Oracle were free and open-source, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If MySQL/BASIC fits your needs, that's OK, but they both still have serious limitations. Need partitioning? Need (functioning) writeable views? Flashback queries? Materialized views? There's a ton more, but you get the idea. If someone needs these features but doesn't have them, they do workarounds. And just to reiterate, in case my point was lost: there's nothing wrong with MySQL. If it fits your needs, fine. If you need more, you may not realize it if you don't know what else is out there. Cheers, Ovid ===== Silence is Evil http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.html Ovid http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ From schwern at pobox.com Tue Dec 14 16:03:26 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Tue Dec 14 16:03:37 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214203949.76638.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041214195125.GH30155@gblx.net> <20041214203949.76638.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041214220326.GF29861@windhund.schwern.org> On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 12:39:48PM -0800, publiustemp-pdxpm@yahoo.com wrote: > If Oracle were free and open-source, we wouldn't be having this > discussion. Oracle sucks in New and Interesting ways. Though perhaps if it was open source the suckage would have been beaten out of it long ago. But there is a free and open-source database that's on par with Oracle, PostgreSQL (ok, at least in the "we have the basic Real Database features" dept). Why don't more people use that? Personally, I find the documentation to be oddly user hostile and I like many of the MySQL syntax extensions. I'm not saying there's not a whole bunch of people who jumped on the MySQL bandwagon without looking at PostgreSQL, but for me I decided to trade off referrential integrity (useful), triggers (tend to bite you in the ass) and constraints (wish I had 'em) for better docs and syntax. Because SQL syntax is hateful enough already. But I wouldn't mind having it all. 5.0 may finally be it. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ Please Captain, not in front of the Klingons. From kellert at ohsu.edu Tue Dec 14 16:08:48 2004 From: kellert at ohsu.edu (Thomas J Keller) Date: Tue Dec 14 16:09:21 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214203949.76638.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041214203949.76638.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Speaking of "what's out there", has anyone used R as a statistical analysis environment? (www.r-project.org) Does one need to learn the R language to use the tools develeped with it, or can one use perl wrappers to develop pipelines of R-tools? ?crasez l'Inf?me Tom On Dec 14, 2004, at 12:39 PM, wrote: > --- Austin Schutz wrote: > >> I disagree with the "toy" assessment. I guess that's my point. :-) >> > > When I first started programming in the early 80s, BASIC was a serious > business language. As business required more, the limitations of BASIC > became apparent. Frankly, BASIC would work for many of the smaller > applications out there, it just wouldn't be the best choice. If most > other languages cost a ton of money, though, BASIC would have a strong > following (as it did when it came free with many computers.) > > I can't prove it, but I'm willing to be that many of those BASIC > programmers would fiercely defend their choice of language. And you > know what? They would be right. If BASIC was the only free language > most programmers would know BASIC and it would be a ubiquitous tool > with programmers touting the CBAN to handle much of the heavy lifting. > If that's the tool available, that's fine and there's nothing wrong > with it, but few would really argue that BASIC can hold a candle to > Perl or other modern programming languages. > > If Oracle were free and open-source, we wouldn't be having this > discussion. If MySQL/BASIC fits your needs, that's OK, but they both > still have serious limitations. Need partitioning? Need > (functioning) writeable views? Flashback queries? Materialized views? > There's a ton more, but you get the idea. If someone needs these > features but doesn't have them, they do workarounds. > > And just to reiterate, in case my point was lost: there's nothing > wrong with MySQL. If it fits your needs, fine. If you need more, you > may not realize it if you don't know what else is out there. > > Cheers, > Ovid > > ===== > Silence is Evil > http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/decency.html > Ovid > http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=17000 > Web Programming with Perl http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ > _______________________________________________ > Pdx-pm-list mailing list > Pdx-pm-list@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pdx-pm-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2739 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/archives/pdx-pm-list/attachments/20041214/5721bade/attachment.bin From randall at sonofhans.net Tue Dec 14 16:17:56 2004 From: randall at sonofhans.net (Randall Hansen) Date: Tue Dec 14 16:18:08 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: <20041214220326.GF29861@windhund.schwern.org> References: <20041214195125.GH30155@gblx.net> <20041214203949.76638.qmail@web60809.mail.yahoo.com> <20041214220326.GF29861@windhund.schwern.org> Message-ID: <01A364FF-4E1E-11D9-87A4-000A95D9E32C@sonofhans.net> On Dec 14, 2004, at 2:03 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > But there is a free and open-source database that's on par with Oracle, > PostgreSQL (ok, at least in the "we have the basic Real Database > features" > dept). Why don't more people use that? Personally, I find the > documentation > to be oddly user hostile i agree. i like PostgreSQL for its features, and its command line beats MySQL handily, but its docs suck. MySQL's, particularly its user-commented documentation online, is really good. > I'm not saying there's not a whole bunch of people who jumped on the > MySQL > bandwagon without looking at PostgreSQL, but for me I decided to trade > off > referrential integrity (useful), triggers (tend to bite you in the > ass) and > constraints (wish I had 'em) for better docs and syntax. MySQL's had a roadmap for a long time, and they tend to stick with it. the development is out in the open, and they tend to put priority on features that users (as in, "people who actually use the app, not just whine from the sidelines about it's lack of Feature X") (no offense intended to anyone here) ask for. i think in the long run this will serve them in good stead. r From gabrielle.roth at xo.com Tue Dec 14 16:37:15 2004 From: gabrielle.roth at xo.com (Roth, Gabrielle) Date: Tue Dec 14 16:37:48 2004 Subject: postgres docs RE: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: pdx-pm-list-bounces@mail.pm.org > [mailto:pdx-pm-list-bounces@mail.pm.org] On Behalf Of Randall Hansen > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:18 PM > To: PDX PM > Subject: Re: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool > > > On Dec 14, 2004, at 2:03 PM, Michael G Schwern wrote: > Personally, I find the > > documentation > > to be oddly user hostile > > i agree. i like PostgreSQL for its features, and its command line > beats MySQL handily, but its docs suck. I'm curious what exactly sucks/is user-hostile about it, as I've never had a problem finding what I need to know on-line or on the user list (though the list archive search feature is painfully slow). Do you remember any specific examples of what's lacking? - gabrielle "vi vi vi...the editor of the beast" From schwern at pobox.com Tue Dec 14 17:55:46 2004 From: schwern at pobox.com (Michael G Schwern) Date: Tue Dec 14 17:55:56 2004 Subject: postgres docs RE: [Pdx-pm] XP Project Management Tool In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041214235546.GC669@windhund.schwern.org> On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 03:37:15PM -0700, Roth, Gabrielle wrote: > I'm curious what exactly sucks/is user-hostile about it, as I've never > had a problem finding what I need to know on-line or on the user list > (though the list archive search feature is painfully slow). Do you > remember any specific examples of what's lacking? Yes, I was looking for examples of how to use its geometric functions and could find no examples that spelled out "ITS A STRING! YOU PASS COORDINATES AS QUOTED STRINGS!" They all described their arguments in terms which required knowledge of the SQL standard or they just said: "box(X, Y)". Furthermore, when I made a feature request about this it was rejected on the grounds that the terms used were perfectly understandable... if you read all the documentation. This was back in Dec 2000 when I was writing Geo::TigerLine, so its not a fair comparision with the present. Looking at the docs for the geometric functions now they are full of examples. In fact I can't even find an older copy of the docs which matches what I experienced back then. They appear to have improved quite a bit. I still hate that indexes have to be created outside the "create table" statement. ;) I'm boggled that SQL does not appear to specify how to create indexes. -- Michael G Schwern schwern@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ We have returned to claim the pyramids. From almeria at earthlink.net Wed Dec 15 04:47:48 2004 From: almeria at earthlink.net (Rafael Almeria) Date: Wed Dec 15 04:47:49 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Just a little aside on the language/application debate here In-Reply-To: <20041207204853.GB4432@gblx.net> References: <32919.130.94.161.146.1102452096.squirrel@joshheumann.com> <20041207204853.GB4432@gblx.net> Message-ID: I thought that this would be a bit amusing (extracted from Kurzweil's AI site http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0504.html?printable=1) that Richard Feynman created a parallel version of Basic. "To find out how well this would work in practice, Feynman had to write a computer program for QCD. Since the only computer language Richard was really familiar with was Basic, he made up a parallel version of Basic in which he wrote the program and then simulated it by hand to estimate how fast it would run on the Connection Machine." From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Sat Dec 18 14:21:29 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Sat Dec 18 14:21:32 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Practical mod_perl released under CC Message-ID: <33266.130.94.161.146.1103401289.squirrel@joshheumann.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:57:02 -0800 From: Colin Meyer Stas Bekman (maintainer of the excellent mod_perl User's Guide) and Chris Cholet's excellent book is now available for free online. This is not just free beer, but is licensed under Creative Commons. The authors and O'Reilly deserve a big thanks for this contribution to the community. http://modperlbook.org/html/index.html -Colin. From cpm at bitbucket.com Mon Dec 20 13:12:51 2004 From: cpm at bitbucket.com (Craig McLaughlin) Date: Mon Dec 20 13:13:04 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Postal Code / Lat/Long DB? Message-ID: All -- I'm putting together an app that requires the above data... Anyone know of a good open-source / etc etc database of the above information? Cheers and Happy Holidays and all that, --Craig From perl-pm at joshheumann.com Mon Dec 20 13:50:29 2004 From: perl-pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Mon Dec 20 13:50:34 2004 Subject: [Pdx-pm] Postal Code / Lat/Long DB? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32823.130.94.161.146.1103572229.squirrel@joshheumann.com> > I'm putting together an app that requires the above data... Anyone know > of a good open-source / etc etc database of the above information? Have you looked at the Geo::Coder::US and Geo::Postcode::Location packages? A friend of mine used them to create this cool tool to find the closest wifi spot to a given address: http://wifipdx.com/ Josh