From dmo at acm.org Mon Feb 7 16:38:28 2011 From: dmo at acm.org (Dave O'Neill) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 19:38:28 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Intermediate-level Perl training in Ottawa? Message-ID: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> Hey all, I've got a friend with good sysadmin/hacker Perl skills (read: enough of an understanding of core Perl + CPAN modules to bang out quick scripts) who wants to improve her Perl development skills. Things like testing frameworks, OO Perl, writing and releasing modules, etc. Any suggestions as to where she could find this in Ottawa, or possibly nearby (Toronto / Montreal)? I took a quick look around, and the Perl training I've found seems to be of the zero-to-CGI-in-7-days variety, which is a bit below what she's looking for. Cheers, Dave From yanick at babyl.dyndns.org Mon Feb 7 20:31:56 2011 From: yanick at babyl.dyndns.org (Yanick Champoux) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 23:31:56 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Intermediate-level Perl training in Ottawa? In-Reply-To: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> References: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> Message-ID: <4D50C73C.7010807@babyl.dyndns.org> Hey Dave! On 11-02-07 07:38 PM, Dave O'Neill wrote: > I've got a friend with good sysadmin/hacker Perl skills (read: enough of > an understanding of core Perl + CPAN modules to bang out quick scripts) > who wants to improve her Perl development skills. Things like testing > frameworks, OO Perl, writing and releasing modules, etc. > > Any suggestions as to where she could find this in Ottawa, or possibly > nearby (Toronto / Montreal)? I took a quick look around, and the Perl > training I've found seems to be of the zero-to-CGI-in-7-days variety, > which is a bit below what she's looking for. I don't know of any serious Perl training around but, for what it's worth, I'm going to do a "Perl for sysadmin" presentation for the Ottawa Sysadmin Guild in April. I'll broadcast the date when I'll have it. For that specific presentation, I'll keep the Perl content soft-core, but I'm pretty sure there will nonetheless be a little something for everybody. :-) Also, I still have my old Moose presentation somewhere. I have fingers in the Catalyst and Dancer scenes as well, and am knee-deep in the MetaCPAN skunk work. If there's a demand, we could resurrect the .pm meetings for a couple of tech presentations. Joy, `/anick PS: to have an idea of the things I can potentially yack about, http://babyl.dyndns.org/techblog give a pretty good idea of what I've been at for the last coupla months. From dmo at acm.org Tue Feb 8 03:47:02 2011 From: dmo at acm.org (Dave O'Neill) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 06:47:02 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Intermediate-level Perl training in Ottawa? In-Reply-To: <4D50C73C.7010807@babyl.dyndns.org> References: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D50C73C.7010807@babyl.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20110208114702.GB11669@chicken.dmo.ca> On Mon, Feb 07, 2011 at 11:31:56PM -0500, Yanick Champoux wrote: > I don't know of any serious Perl training around but, for what it's > worth, I'm going to do a "Perl for sysadmin" presentation for the Ottawa > Sysadmin Guild in April. I'll broadcast the date when I'll have it. For > that specific presentation, I'll keep the Perl content soft-core, but > I'm pretty sure there will nonetheless be a little something for > everybody. :-) Yeah, the problem is finding the "serious" Perl training. For her, it has to be something taught in a classroom ("corporate training", at $3k/week) to qualify on her learning plan (gov't employee...) so the fact that she could easily learn from other sources is moot. > Also, I still have my old Moose presentation somewhere. I have fingers > in the Catalyst and Dancer scenes as well, and am knee-deep in the > MetaCPAN skunk work. If there's a demand, we could resurrect the .pm > meetings for a couple of tech presentations. I'm always interested in trying to resurrect the .pm meetings... the problem is that my interest is greater than my available free time :) > PS: to have an idea of the things I can potentially yack about, > http://babyl.dyndns.org/techblog give a pretty good idea of what I've > been at for the last coupla months. Yep... got that in my feedreader. Good stuff! Cheers, Dave From yanick at babyl.dyndns.org Tue Feb 8 04:59:07 2011 From: yanick at babyl.dyndns.org (Yanick Champoux) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 07:59:07 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Intermediate-level Perl training in Ottawa? In-Reply-To: <20110208114702.GB11669@chicken.dmo.ca> References: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D50C73C.7010807@babyl.dyndns.org> <20110208114702.GB11669@chicken.dmo.ca> Message-ID: <4D513E1B.80309@babyl.dyndns.org> On 11-02-08 06:47 AM, Dave O'Neill wrote: > Yeah, the problem is finding the "serious" Perl training. For her, it > has to be something taught in a classroom ("corporate training", at > $3k/week) to qualify on her learning plan (gov't employee...) $3k...? Heck, for that amount, I can provide a class room, wear a tie, and hire a backing choir to make it more professional. ;-) Seriously, though, for that kind of money, she could look into Stonehedge's offering, or consider going to YAPC or another Perl conference. > I'm always interested in trying to resurrect the .pm meetings... the > problem is that my interest is greater than my available free time :) Yeah, there's always that prickly issue called "time". :-) But we'll see if anybody else chirp up on the list. Who knows, maybe we *will* reach the critical mass to have a meeting. If you would have time to assist, is there any special topic that especially pique your interest? >> PS: to have an idea of the things I can potentially yack about, >> http://babyl.dyndns.org/techblog give a pretty good idea of what I've >> been at for the last coupla months. > > Yep... got that in my feedreader. Good stuff! Thanks. :-) And not yet turned in a blog entry are my adventures with Test::Routine (it's like Test::Class, but Mooseified), and my latest mad experiences with Rsync and Git duct-taped together to provide fast remote du functionality. That's fun stuff. :-) Joy, `/anick From procter at pythian.com Tue Feb 8 05:37:22 2011 From: procter at pythian.com (Timothy Procter) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 08:37:22 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Intermediate-level Perl training in Ottawa? In-Reply-To: <4D513E1B.80309@babyl.dyndns.org> References: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D50C73C.7010807@babyl.dyndns.org> <20110208114702.GB11669@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D513E1B.80309@babyl.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4D514712.5090903@pythian.com> Another option might be Learning Tree. (http://www.learningtree.ca/courses/431.htm). Although it sounds like this course might be too basic, it does cover OO. I've never been myself. On 08/02/2011 7:59 AM, Yanick Champoux wrote: > On 11-02-08 06:47 AM, Dave O'Neill wrote: >> Yeah, the problem is finding the "serious" Perl training. For her, it >> has to be something taught in a classroom ("corporate training", at >> $3k/week) to qualify on her learning plan (gov't employee...) > > $3k...? Heck, for that amount, I can provide a class room, wear a > tie, and hire a backing choir to make it more professional. ;-) > > Seriously, though, for that kind of money, she could look into > Stonehedge's offering, or consider going to YAPC or another Perl > conference. > >> I'm always interested in trying to resurrect the .pm meetings... the >> problem is that my interest is greater than my available free time :) > > Yeah, there's always that prickly issue called "time". :-) But > we'll see if anybody else chirp up on the list. Who knows, maybe we > *will* reach the critical mass to have a meeting. If you would have > time to assist, is there any special topic that especially pique your > interest? > >>> PS: to have an idea of the things I can potentially yack about, >>> http://babyl.dyndns.org/techblog give a pretty good idea of what I've >>> been at for the last coupla months. >> >> Yep... got that in my feedreader. Good stuff! > > Thanks. :-) And not yet turned in a blog entry are my adventures > with Test::Routine (it's like Test::Class, but Mooseified), and my > latest mad experiences with Rsync and Git duct-taped together to > provide fast remote du functionality. That's fun stuff. :-) > > > Joy, > `/anick > _______________________________________________ > Ottawa-pm mailing list > Ottawa-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/ottawa-pm -- *Timothy Procter * Technical Manager, Development CSDP Pythian love your data www.pythian.com office: +1 613 565 8696 x 292 mobile : +1 613 266 3525 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From champoux at pythian.com Tue Feb 8 06:42:33 2011 From: champoux at pythian.com (Yanick Champoux) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 09:42:33 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Intermediate-level Perl training in Ottawa? In-Reply-To: <4D513E1B.80309@babyl.dyndns.org> References: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D50C73C.7010807@babyl.dyndns.org> <20110208114702.GB11669@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D513E1B.80309@babyl.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4D515659.7020103@pythian.com> On 02/08/11 07:59, Yanick Champoux wrote: > For her, it > has to be something taught in a classroom ("corporate training", at > $3k/week) to qualify on her learning plan (gov't employee...) I just realized that I now have an inside-man within Toronto.pm. I'll ask him if they have anything of that ilk there. Joy, `/anick From allan.fields at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 06:26:28 2011 From: allan.fields at gmail.com (allan.fields at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:26:28 +0000 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] In defence of Perl.. Message-ID: <756739739-1297261587-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1167788135-@bda2490.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Or why I still choose Perl over Python. Despite the wide spread publicity and high-profile proponents in press proclaiming Python the next generation language for the new millennium and allure of the Python band-wagon. I aint switch-in'. I may use Python on Linux, but I prefer to write familiar/flexible Perl. What recently raised my concern was a 2000 era Linux Journal article detailing Python as the new kernel configuration language and how the author justified it. While I care not, that the authors found Python handy for this purpose and encourage people to use the right tool for the job; I will suggest that it is bad form for critics of Perl, based on code quality or maintenance issues to disqualify Perl as a language, when often times Perl developers responsible are not given to properly maintaining the Perl code anyway. It's this maintenance which when done right, can help people effectively use Perl, code-style counter-arguments aside. While many will argue Perl is a scripting language whose time has passed, I will suggest the current reality is quite different. Perl is both still in use heavily, practical for Enterprise use and ready for both basic and advanced tasks alike. Inside Government in Ottawa Perl is being actively employed for many projects. It can be used with ease to solve what even eludes the others, module and perl interpreter general availability is a strength of Perl for business use. Python and Ruby may have made strides since early releases as far as modules available, etc. And from time to time you hear rants about CPAN breakage which at one point was admittedly a problem for the perl community. However, I have found recent releases of Perl 5 have been rock solid across all platforms with an excellent history of release engineering. Mean-while Perl authors have silently maintained a huge installed base of modules, which can solve almost any complex automation or data-processing problem for a minimal cost in complexity and time. A good site I like to search for snippets is http://perlmonks.org, if CPAN alone isn't an invaluable resource, then likely you'll find some kind sole solved it already for the lazy or perl adverse. Notice, a fright of white-spaces and snakes is not necessarily a bad thing when climbing up the Perl ladder. Sophisticated, flexible code is only a few subs away. Recently, I was involved in a script which required to do IP Subnet/CIDR. Calculations with-out modules (minimal install). I found an article on Perlmonks which helped me do the bitmasking, but I still had to think rather than copy+paste. It is the time that these invaluable resources save you that add to the Perl community appeal. This can count big time in the Sys-Admin space, as going from A-B and reporting on it is simple. Have to parse routes in network multiple formats? np. I have saved countless hours with account management when Perl provides the missing piece of the puzzle. In a practical sense, perl scripts are responsible for maintaining a large part of the web infrastructure in use today, if not on the front-line, in the office when serious data processing tasks mandate an effective solution. If it looks like line-noise, perhaps they didn't understand the language syntax and proper program structure. Or perhaps developers where under pressure to deliver a quick hack-up glue script just like those common bourne install scripts which people rush out the door at the last minute. Quick scripting is perhaps OK provided they aren't in it for the long term. But it can all add up, just as in any code-base. In the kernel dev community I can't blame them either way, because I know developer time is valuable, but arguable perl is still an excellent make tool, with many Open Source projects relying on it, to this very day. Disclaimer: I've been a long time proponent of Perl and attended earlier YAPC. # Long Live Perl. use Perl; Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network From champoux at pythian.com Wed Feb 9 06:42:35 2011 From: champoux at pythian.com (Yanick Champoux) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 09:42:35 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Intermediate-level Perl training in Ottawa? In-Reply-To: <4D513E1B.80309@babyl.dyndns.org> References: <20110208003828.GB31127@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D50C73C.7010807@babyl.dyndns.org> <20110208114702.GB11669@chicken.dmo.ca> <4D513E1B.80309@babyl.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4D52A7DB.5090800@pythian.com> My mole from the Toronto mongers reported back. He doesn't know himself of any corporate training company in the sector, but he encourages us to go to the Toronto.pm mailing list (links at http://to.pm.org/) and ask there, as there might be some Great Elders present who might know more. Joy, `/anick From dmiller at mcc.ca Fri Feb 25 05:46:15 2011 From: dmiller at mcc.ca (David Miller) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:46:15 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers Message-ID: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> In case of interest.. http://www.quantum.ca/details.aspx?ln=en-CA&ji=6:12:22027 Le pr?sent courriel peut contenir de l'information privil?gi?e ou confidentielle. Le Conseil m?dical du Canada ne renonce pas aux droits qui s'y rapportent. Toute diffusion, utilisation ou copie de ce courriel ou des renseignements qu'il contient par une personne autre que le ou les destinataires d?sign?s est interdite. Si vous recevez ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le supprimer imm?diatement et envoyer sans d?lai ? l'exp?diteur un message ?lectronique pour l'aviser que vous avez ?limin? de votre ordinateur toute copie du courriel re?u. L'int?grit? et la s?curit? de ce message ne peuvent pas ?tre garanties sur l'Internet. Si vous ne voulez pas que le CMC communique avec vous par courriel, vous pouvez nous faire parvenir un courriel ? l?adresse suivante unsubscribe at mcc.ca et inscrire dans la ligne d?objet ? d?sabonnement ?. Si vous avez des questions ou des pr?occupations concernant notre politique sur la protection des renseignements personnels, n'h?sitez pas ? en faire part par ?crit au comit? de protection des renseignements personnels, au 2283, boul. St-Laurent, Ottawa (Ontario) K1G 3H7. This email may contain privileged and/or confidential information, and the Medical Council of Canada does not waive any related rights. Any distribution, use, copying or disclosure of this email or the information it contains by other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by email that you have done so. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. If you prefer not to receive MCC communications by e-mail, please send us an e-mail with only ?unsubscribe? in the subject line to unsubscribe at mcc.ca. Any questions about our privacy practices should be made in writing and directed to the Privacy Committee at 2283 St. Laurent Blvd., Ottawa ON K1G 3H7. From clayton.scott at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 09:13:39 2011 From: clayton.scott at gmail.com (Clayton Scott) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:13:39 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers In-Reply-To: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> Message-ID: Actually this is an ad for the place I've been working at for the last 1.3 years and I am really enjoying it. Here's a better job description that includes the name of the company, what we do and what you'll get out of it: http://jobs.perl.org/job/13680 As always I'm available for questions, Clayton 2011/2/25 David Miller : > In case of interest.. > http://www.quantum.ca/details.aspx?ln=en-CA&ji=6:12:22027 > > > Le pr?sent courriel peut contenir de l'information privil?gi?e ou confidentielle. Le Conseil m?dical du Canada ne renonce pas aux droits qui s'y rapportent. Toute diffusion, utilisation ou copie de ce courriel ou des renseignements qu'il contient par une personne autre que le ou les destinataires d?sign?s est interdite. Si vous recevez ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le supprimer imm?diatement et envoyer sans d?lai ? l'exp?diteur un message ?lectronique pour l'aviser que vous avez ?limin? de votre ordinateur toute copie du courriel re?u. L'int?grit? et la s?curit? de ce message ne peuvent pas ?tre garanties sur l'Internet. ?Si vous ne voulez pas que le CMC communique avec vous par courriel, vous pouvez nous faire parvenir un courriel ? l?adresse suivante unsubscribe at mcc.ca et inscrire dans la ligne d?objet ? d?sabonnement ?. ? Si vous avez des questions ou des pr?occupations concernant notre politique sur la protection des renseignements personnels, n'h?sitez pas ? en faire part par ?crit au comit? de protection des renseignements personnels, au 2283, boul. St-Laurent, Ottawa (Ontario) K1G 3H7. > > This email may contain privileged and/or confidential information, and the Medical Council of Canada does not waive any related rights. Any distribution, use, copying or disclosure of this email or the information it contains by other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by email that you have done so. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. ?If you prefer not to receive MCC communications by e-mail, please send us an e-mail with only ?unsubscribe? in the subject line to unsubscribe at mcc.ca. ?Any questions about our privacy practices should be made in writing and directed to the Privacy Committee at 2283 St. Laurent Blvd., Ottawa ON K1G 3H7. > _______________________________________________ > Ottawa-pm mailing list > Ottawa-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/ottawa-pm > -- Clayton Scott clayton.scott at gmail.com From champoux at pythian.com Fri Feb 25 09:30:48 2011 From: champoux at pythian.com (Yanick Champoux) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:30:48 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> Message-ID: <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> On 02/25/11 12:13, Clayton Scott wrote: > Actually this is an ad for the place I've been working at for the last > 1.3 years and I am really enjoying it. Coooool. And it's nice to see job applications that mention Catalyst. :-) Only marginally related, but have you guys seen that Mason 2 has been released last week(ish). Very close to the ol' Mason we all know and love, but with Moose goodness. Looks very interesting. Joy, `/anick From msoulier at digitaltorque.ca Fri Feb 25 09:34:13 2011 From: msoulier at digitaltorque.ca (Michael P. Soulier) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:34:13 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers In-Reply-To: <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> Message-ID: <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> On 25/02/11 Yanick Champoux said: > Coooool. And it's nice to see job applications that mention > Catalyst. :-) They should mention Mojolicious. Catalyst is less desirable. > Only marginally related, but have you guys seen that Mason 2 has > been released last week(ish). Very close to the ol' Mason we all know > and love, but with Moose goodness. Looks very interesting. CPAN dependency hell. I dropped it quickly, but Mojo::Lite is nice. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." --Albert Einstein -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From champoux at pythian.com Fri Feb 25 09:41:58 2011 From: champoux at pythian.com (Yanick Champoux) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:41:58 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers In-Reply-To: <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> Message-ID: <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> On 02/25/11 12:34, Michael P. Soulier wrote: > They should mention Mojolicious. Catalyst is less desirable. Well, well, well, a Mojolicious user. :-) That's the framework that I didn't get around playing with, so far. Nowadays I'm juggling between Dancer for simple apps and Catalyst for the big and meaty ones. So I take that Mojolicious hit the sweet spot for you? >> > Only marginally related, but have you guys seen that Mason 2 has >> > been released last week(ish). Very close to the ol' Mason we all know >> > and love, but with Moose goodness. Looks very interesting. > CPAN dependency hell. Oh? I hit 'cpamn Mason' 2 minutes ago, and it's done for me. But then, I guess that my Perl installation is a little bit more... seeded than the average. :-) Joy, `/anick From msoulier at digitaltorque.ca Fri Feb 25 12:27:05 2011 From: msoulier at digitaltorque.ca (Michael P. Soulier) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:27:05 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers In-Reply-To: <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> Message-ID: <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> On 25/02/11 Yanick Champoux said: > Well, well, well, a Mojolicious user. :-) That's the framework > that I didn't get around playing with, so far. Nowadays I'm > juggling between Dancer for simple apps and Catalyst for the big and > meaty ones. So I take that Mojolicious hit the sweet spot for you? If I'm using Perl to do a website, it would be my first choice. > Oh? I hit 'cpamn Mason' 2 minutes ago, and it's done for me. > But then, I guess that my Perl installation is a little bit more... > seeded than the average. :-) Try packaging it all into something like individual rpms for deployment across thousands of servers. It's no end of fun. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." --Albert Einstein -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From veljko at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 12:47:39 2011 From: veljko at gmail.com (Veljko Vidovic) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:47:39 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers In-Reply-To: <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> Message-ID: > Try packaging it all into something like individual rpms for deployment across > thousands of servers. It's no end of fun. Boy, I would give 5 years of my life to see any of my code deployed to thousands of servers. I feel so miserable now writing all this code running on 10-15 servers in best case. I will start drinking right away and not stop until Monday morning... Shame on you Michael! ;) 2011/2/25 Michael P. Soulier : > On 25/02/11 Yanick Champoux said: > >> ? ? Well, well, well, a Mojolicious user. ?:-) That's the framework >> that I didn't get around playing with, so far. Nowadays I'm >> juggling between Dancer for simple apps and Catalyst for the big and >> meaty ones. ?So I take that Mojolicious hit the sweet spot for you? > > If I'm using Perl to do a website, it would be my first choice. > >> ? ? Oh? I hit 'cpamn Mason' 2 minutes ago, and it's done for me. >> But then, I guess that my Perl installation is a little bit more... >> seeded than the average. :-) > > Try packaging it all into something like individual rpms for deployment across > thousands of servers. It's no end of fun. > > Mike > -- > Michael P. Soulier > "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a > touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." > --Albert Einstein > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAk1oEJgACgkQKGqCc1vIvgj1wQCfezYwGnk3tWl+X4ha9eroGJQq > cRUAoKmMEI6QnUk1+EWOXUiVUvq/v7Sa > =idPD > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > Ottawa-pm mailing list > Ottawa-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/ottawa-pm > > From dmo at acm.org Fri Feb 25 23:12:38 2011 From: dmo at acm.org (Dave O'Neill) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 02:12:38 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Repackaging Perl modules (was Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers) In-Reply-To: <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> Message-ID: <20110226071238.GA24961@chicken.dmo.ca> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 03:27:05PM -0500, Michael P. Soulier wrote: >On 25/02/11 Yanick Champoux said: >> Oh? I hit 'cpamn Mason' 2 minutes ago, and it's done for me. >> But then, I guess that my Perl installation is a little bit more... >> seeded than the average. :-) > > Try packaging it all into something like individual rpms for deployment across > thousands of servers. It's no end of fun. Packaging modules for redistribution as OS packages (RPMs or debs) wasn't so bad when we did it at Roaring Penguin, even when we were shipping a Catalyst-based web API. It's annoying the first time, sure, but it's easily automated. For a time we were building Solaris .pkg files, RPMS for multiple versions of Fedora, RHEL and SLES, and debs for multiple versions of Debian. The biggest annoyance on Red Hat is that they retain ancient dual-lifed modules as part of the core perl RPM, making conflicts inevitable when you want to ship something that requires the newer one. And they blame upstream Perl for shipping them with the base language when asked about it :( Cheers, Dave From clayton.scott at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 05:37:36 2011 From: clayton.scott at gmail.com (Clayton Scott) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:37:36 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Repackaging Perl modules (was Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers) In-Reply-To: <20110226071238.GA24961@chicken.dmo.ca> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> <20110226071238.GA24961@chicken.dmo.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Dave O'Neill wrote: > The biggest annoyance on Red Hat is that they retain ancient dual-lifed > modules as part of the core perl RPM, making conflicts inevitable when you > want to ship something that requires the newer one. ?And they blame upstream > Perl for shipping them with the base language when asked about it :( This is why my preference (especially for RedHat) is to compile (and package) my own perl that's completely independent of the OS perl so that you don't have to stick to 5.8.9 (or worse) when 5.10.1 and 5.12.3 are available and no long bleeding edge. Clayton -- Clayton Scott clayton.scott at gmail.com From mark at mark.mielke.cc Sat Feb 26 08:32:34 2011 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:32:34 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Repackaging Perl modules (was Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers) In-Reply-To: References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> <20110226071238.GA24961@chicken.dmo.ca> Message-ID: <4D692B22.7080002@mark.mielke.cc> On 02/26/2011 08:37 AM, Clayton Scott wrote: > On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Dave O'Neill wrote: >> The biggest annoyance on Red Hat is that they retain ancient dual-lifed >> modules as part of the core perl RPM, making conflicts inevitable when you >> want to ship something that requires the newer one. And they blame upstream >> Perl for shipping them with the base language when asked about it :( > This is why my preference (especially for RedHat) is to compile (and > package) my own perl > that's completely independent of the OS perl so that you don't have to > stick to 5.8.9 (or worse) > when 5.10.1 and 5.12.3 are available and no long bleeding edge. Of course, the RedHat problem is really that they keep delaying the release of RHEL 6.0. If RHEL 5.x wasn't so old, most of the complaints would disappear... $ rpm -q perl perl-5.12.3-141.fc14.x86_64 I haven't found a need to install a module from CPAN in a long time for my server at home... Personally, I do blame upstream Perl for "ancient dual-lifed modules". If the modules are going to branch so greatly - why not give them a new name? Core modules have an important part in development. They represent a particular baseline for "core behaviour" of Perl. If I write code that is tested on Perl 5.8.1, I expect to be able to freely use core modules in Perl 5.8.1, and that all of my testing will be valid. If some future version of a dual-lifed module changes behaviour - I expect my module to continue to function according to the old behaviour. If users start to upgrade these modules independent from the core, the resulting "Frankenstein" is not a supportable product. -- Mark Mielke From msoulier at digitaltorque.ca Sun Feb 27 07:31:31 2011 From: msoulier at digitaltorque.ca (Michael P. Soulier) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:31:31 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> Message-ID: <20110227153128.GA16453@digitaltorque.ca> On 25/02/11 Veljko Vidovic said: > Boy, I would give 5 years of my life to see any of my code deployed to > thousands of servers. I feel so miserable now writing all this code > running on 10-15 servers in best case. > I will start drinking right away and not stop until Monday morning... > > Shame on you Michael! ;) ;-) Well, score one for Perl here, 'cause we don't get many support complaints from those thousands of servers. Mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From msoulier at digitaltorque.ca Sun Feb 27 07:32:51 2011 From: msoulier at digitaltorque.ca (Michael P. Soulier) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:32:51 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Repackaging Perl modules (was Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers) In-Reply-To: <20110226071238.GA24961@chicken.dmo.ca> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> <20110226071238.GA24961@chicken.dmo.ca> Message-ID: <20110227153249.GB16453@digitaltorque.ca> On 26/02/11 Dave O'Neill said: > Packaging modules for redistribution as OS packages (RPMs or debs) > wasn't so bad when we did it at Roaring Penguin, even when we were > shipping a Catalyst-based web API. It's annoying the first time, > sure, but it's easily automated. For a time we were building > Solaris .pkg files, RPMS for multiple versions of Fedora, RHEL and > SLES, and debs for multiple versions of Debian. cpan2rpm was a big help... > The biggest annoyance on Red Hat is that they retain ancient > dual-lifed modules as part of the core perl RPM, making conflicts > inevitable when you want to ship something that requires the newer > one. And they blame upstream Perl for shipping them with the base > language when asked about it :( RedHat/CentOS stays with ancient versions of everything 'cause it's the devil they know. I'm still working with Perl 5.8. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." --Albert Einstein -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From champoux at pythian.com Mon Feb 28 07:25:29 2011 From: champoux at pythian.com (Yanick Champoux) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:25:29 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa-pm] Repackaging Perl modules (was Wanted: 5 Perl Programmers) In-Reply-To: <20110227153249.GB16453@digitaltorque.ca> References: <348A7B0E52C1374FABC45E2854500ECA0332A067EC@mcc-exc01.lmcc.local> <4D67E748.6070206@pythian.com> <20110225173412.GD2747@digitaltorque.ca> <4D67E9E6.1040701@pythian.com> <20110225202704.GA1715@kostya.digitaltorque.ca> <20110226071238.GA24961@chicken.dmo.ca> <20110227153249.GB16453@digitaltorque.ca> Message-ID: <4D6BBE69.8060908@pythian.com> > RedHat/CentOS stays with ancient versions of everything 'cause it's the devil > they know. I'm still working with Perl 5.8. Could be worse. I had to hack a wee bit in Perl 4 last year. No, seriously, I did. I felt like Indiana Jones and the Codebase of Doom. Anyway, regarding the pains of massive deployment, the path I took is following the precept of Sun Tzu "The only battle you're ensured to win is the battle you avoid". Unless eldritch requirements force me to use it, I leave the system's perl alone -- to the everlasting glee of sysadmins -- and build my own with perlbrew [1] . That way it can be easily be packaged and distributed (using tarballs, git pushes, rsync, very fast typists, etc) without having a worry of impacting anything else, or clash with the local package manager. So far, it's a method that is serving me superlatively well. [1] http://babyl.dyndns.org/techblog/entry/guerilla-perl-installations Cheers, `/anick