From george at metaart.org Sat Mar 1 18:05:32 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] State of the pm: March 1, 2003 Message-ID: <200303011605.32554.george@metaart.org> State of the Oakland.pm March 1, 2003 ==================== Affiliations ---------------- O'Reilly User Group Program got 6 books/products: as gift, to 6 different people books and products reviewed: 6 (3 more) banner opportunities taken: 3 Perl Mongers Listings --------- Website References: CostaRica.pm Ecovillage (on calendar) Google Directory Monterey.pm (link to our related groups list) Perl Mongers North American List San Francisco.pm (on related groups list) Planned: HawkesBay.pm Earlier we requested listings with: Berkeley.pm Linux Mafia SiliconValley.pm (I've basically given up on these. Oh, well.) The following don't have listings for related groups: Sonoma.pm Search Engine Listings: Try +Oakland +"Perl Mongers". I tried (2003-02-27) on the 6 top search engines per my most recent evaluation (2003-01) (i.e. on Google, AOL Search, Excite, Teoma and Yahoo, Alta Vista) with the following result: All 6 had either our site or the PM link to it in one of the first 3 positions. Mailing Lists -------------- Oakland.pm mailing list subscribers: 17 (as of 2003-02-27) Oakland.pm messages: November 106 December 99 January 54 February 115 PBML mailing list subscribers: 12 (as of 2003-02-27) PBML messages: (all messages lost, I believe) December 39 (many messages lost, I believe) January 15 February 52 Meetings ----------- monthly meeting attendees: November 3 December 9 January 8 February 11 regular meeting time: 2nd Tuesday at 7:30pm regular meeting place: not yet determined. places we've tried: #1 Coffee Mill (not open) #2 George Woolley's (too small) #3 Village Restaurant** #4 Arden Schaeffer's** places not tried but being considered: David Fetter's** places considered and rejected: 5 (that I know of) under consideration: see ** longer term: what do we want? status: still looking March Meeting Plans: talk by: no talk theme: social, looking at what next select a meeting place invitations out for speakers: 1 future speakers: March: no speaker (by design) April: David Fetter May: not yet determined June: Dan Meriwether Website ---------- The Home Page includes sections on: what the Club is at all the next meeting * acknowledgements * contact info There are separate pages on: * related groups * members (including 8 profiles) There are separate directories for: * learning * mailinglists * meetings * reviews (including 4 book reviews) and also for * directions * our O'Reilly User Group affiliation (including newsletters) Finally ------- Comments? Corrections? -- George From george at metaart.org Sun Mar 2 21:14:46 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Regular Meeting Place Message-ID: <200303021914.46408.george@metaart.org> 9 people who are active in Oakland.pm have given me input since the last meeting on where we should have our regular meeting. Thanks to all of you. It's rather clear that for a regular meeting place, for the time being, Arden's place is the best choice. I've made arrangements with him for meeting at his place on 2nd Tuesdays. From blyman at iii.com Mon Mar 3 11:39:42 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Regular Meeting Place References: <200303021914.46408.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <3E63935E.1000705@iii.com> George Woolley wrote: > 9 people who are active in Oakland.pm have given me input > since the last meeting on where we should have our regular meeting. > Thanks to all of you. > > It's rather clear that for a regular meeting place, > for the time being, > Arden's place is the best choice. > > I've made arrangements with him for meeting at his place > on 2nd Tuesdays. > Does this mean we are not meeting at David Fetter's on the 11th? Belden From george at metaart.org Mon Mar 3 12:13:57 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Regular Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <3E63935E.1000705@iii.com> References: <200303021914.46408.george@metaart.org> <3E63935E.1000705@iii.com> Message-ID: <200303031013.57461.george@metaart.org> No. The next meeting is at my place (not one of the places considered for regular meetings). See listing on our website. Or see the cut and paste of it below my signature. -- George Come to our fifth meeting: * time: Tue. Mar. 11, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. (We meet each 2nd Tue.) * place: George Woolley's place 427 Burk St. #6, Oakland, CA 94610 directions * topics: * introductions * the future * mailing lists * meetings * website * ... * who: open to anyone interested. * cost: no fee for our meetings. On Monday 03 March 2003 9:39 am, Belden Lyman wrote: > George Woolley wrote: > > 9 people who are active in Oakland.pm have given me input > > since the last meeting on where we should have our regular meeting. > > Thanks to all of you. > > > > It's rather clear that for a regular meeting place, > > for the time being, > > Arden's place is the best choice. > > > > I've made arrangements with him for meeting at his place > > on 2nd Tuesdays. > > Does this mean we are not meeting at David Fetter's on the 11th? > > Belden > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From blyman at iii.com Mon Mar 3 12:24:31 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Regular Meeting Place References: <200303021914.46408.george@metaart.org> <3E63935E.1000705@iii.com> <200303031013.57461.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <3E639DDF.6020404@iii.com> George Woolley wrote: > No. > The next meeting is at my place > (not one of the places considered for regular meetings). > See listing on our website. > Or see the cut and paste of it below my signature. > > -- George > Aha, thanks. I wonder why I thought Mr. Fetter would be our host this time? Time to up my medication, perhaps... Belden From david at fetter.org Mon Mar 3 12:51:22 2003 From: david at fetter.org (David Fetter) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Regular Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <3E639DDF.6020404@iii.com> References: <200303021914.46408.george@metaart.org> <3E63935E.1000705@iii.com> <200303031013.57461.george@metaart.org> <3E639DDF.6020404@iii.com> Message-ID: <20030303185122.GF21541@fetter.org> On Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 10:24:31AM -0800, Belden Lyman wrote: > > > George Woolley wrote: > >No. > >The next meeting is at my place > >(not one of the places considered for regular meetings). > >See listing on our website. > >Or see the cut and paste of it below my signature. > > > > -- George > Aha, thanks. I wonder why I thought Mr. Fetter would be our host > this time? Time to up my medication, perhaps... I'd still be delighted, but our fearless leader is bound and determined to fix a meeting place and time in stone. Cf. my earlier comments on "loose and easy." Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 cell: +1 415 235 3778 From extasia at extasia.org Mon Mar 3 16:21:32 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Regular Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20030303185122.GF21541@fetter.org>; from david@fetter.org on Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 10:51:22AM -0800 References: <200303021914.46408.george@metaart.org> <3E63935E.1000705@iii.com> <200303031013.57461.george@metaart.org> <3E639DDF.6020404@iii.com> <20030303185122.GF21541@fetter.org> Message-ID: <20030303142132.C4806@gerasimov.net> At 2003/03/03/10:51 -0800 David Fetter wrote: > I'd still be delighted, but our fearless leader is bound and > determined to fix a meeting place and time in stone. Cf. my earlier > comments on "loose and easy." Put in my vote for not having a meeting place set in stone. -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. *** Come to sig-beer-west! http://www.extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Unix sysadmin available: http://www.extasia.org/resume/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20030303/9bf4da3b/attachment.bin From george at metaart.org Mon Mar 3 17:54:17 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Regular Meeting Place In-Reply-To: <20030303142132.C4806@gerasimov.net> References: <200303021914.46408.george@metaart.org> <20030303185122.GF21541@fetter.org> <20030303142132.C4806@gerasimov.net> Message-ID: <200303031554.17886.george@metaart.org> Hm, set in stone. I'm not aware of anyone in the group who favors that. However, I'd certainly be willing to hear their point of view, if there is someone. In my email, I said, "It's rather clear that for a regular meeting place, for the time being, Arden's place is the best choice." It doesn't sound set in stone to me. In any case, the meeting time & place are not set in stone. -- George On Monday 03 March 2003 2:21 pm, David Alban wrote: > At 2003/03/03/10:51 -0800 David Fetter wrote: > > I'd still be delighted, but our fearless leader is bound and > > determined to fix a meeting place and time in stone. Cf. my earlier > > comments on "loose and easy." > > Put in my vote for not having a meeting place set in stone. From george at metaart.org Tue Mar 4 07:57:41 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Reviews Message-ID: <200303040557.41426.george@metaart.org> If you wish to review an O'Reilly book, let me know. I may be able to get you a review copy. If you have questions regarding this, let me know. From george at metaart.org Tue Mar 4 08:28:32 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Reviews [more] Message-ID: <200303040628.32124.george@metaart.org> Some more thoughts on reviews. As mentioned in my previous email, if you want to do a review of an O'Reilly book, I may be able to get you a review copy. :) Reviews by other publishers besides O'Reilly would be great too. E.g. Addison Wesley, New Riders, Manning, Peachpit, SAMS. :) Reviews need not be on books. For example, a review could be on an article, a talk or product/service. We don't have a style guide for reviews or a set way of doing them. For the moment I've settled on a style that works for me. However, what works well for you may be quite different. From extasia at extasia.org Wed Mar 5 17:53:36 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Funny tagline Message-ID: <20030305155336.A13137@gerasimov.net> Thought you might enjoy a tagline I saw recently: Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration. -- Stan Kelly-Bootle :-) -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. *** Come to sig-beer-west! http://www.extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Unix sysadmin available: http://www.extasia.org/resume/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20030305/d4d7a77e/attachment.bin From george at metaart.org Wed Mar 5 21:27:05 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Funny tagline In-Reply-To: <20030305155336.A13137@gerasimov.net> References: <20030305155336.A13137@gerasimov.net> Message-ID: <200303051927.05958.george@metaart.org> An amusing compromise. But Perl was happy to do that for me. It looks like I can set $[ to whatever. On Wednesday 05 March 2003 3:53 pm, David Alban wrote: > Thought you might enjoy a tagline I saw recently: > > Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was > rejected without, I thought, proper consideration. > -- Stan Kelly-Bootle > > :-) From george at metaart.org Wed Mar 5 22:01:03 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Internet2 Message-ID: <200303052001.03228.george@metaart.org> I'd heard a bit about Internet2. And then I just read: * Internet2 and You http://go.hotwired.com/webmonkey/03/08/index4a.html/eg20030305 * and did a Google seach and visted some of the sites that came up. Anyone have some words of wisdom re Internet2 and what its implications are for most of us? From blyman at iii.com Thu Mar 6 09:39:47 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Funny tagline References: <20030305155336.A13137@gerasimov.net> Message-ID: <3E676BC3.1090604@iii.com> David Alban wrote: > Thought you might enjoy a tagline I saw recently: > > Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was > rejected without, I thought, proper consideration. > -- Stan Kelly-Bootle > Reminds me of: There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those that understand binary, and those that do not. From george at metaart.org Thu Mar 6 11:22:38 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Funny tagline In-Reply-To: <3E676BC3.1090604@iii.com> References: <20030305155336.A13137@gerasimov.net> <3E676BC3.1090604@iii.com> Message-ID: <200303060922.38057.george@metaart.org> Very nice. Once, I tutored a girl in mathematics. When we started, she was having many difficulties and was very frustrated. Eventually, I figured out that she could not count properly in binary. Learning to count in binary, gave her confidence and cleared up all her problems with the course, even though most of the course wasn't dealing with binary. -- George On Thursday 06 March 2003 7:39 am, Belden Lyman wrote: > David Alban wrote: > > Thought you might enjoy a tagline I saw recently: > > > > Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was > > rejected without, I thought, proper consideration. > > -- Stan Kelly-Bootle > > Reminds me of: > > There are 10 kinds of people in this > world: those that understand binary, > and those that do not. From blyman at iii.com Thu Mar 6 11:33:33 2003 From: blyman at iii.com (Belden Lyman) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Funny tagline References: <20030305155336.A13137@gerasimov.net> <3E676BC3.1090604@iii.com> <200303060922.38057.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <3E67866D.3010703@iii.com> George Woolley wrote: > Very nice. > > Once, I tutored a girl in mathematics. > When we started, she was having many difficulties > and was very frustrated. > Eventually, > I figured out that she could not count properly in binary. > Learning to count in binary, > gave her confidence > and cleared up all her problems with the course, > even though most of the course wasn't dealing with binary. Show me 1 person who can count properly in binary, and I'll show you 2 people. Belden From george at metaart.org Thu Mar 6 12:10:16 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Funny tagline In-Reply-To: <3E67866D.3010703@iii.com> References: <20030305155336.A13137@gerasimov.net> <200303060922.38057.george@metaart.org> <3E67866D.3010703@iii.com> Message-ID: <200303061010.16646.george@metaart.org> Or 10. On Thursday 06 March 2003 9:33 am, Belden Lyman wrote: > George Woolley wrote: > > Very nice. > > > > Once, I tutored a girl in mathematics. > > When we started, she was having many difficulties > > and was very frustrated. > > Eventually, > > I figured out that she could not count properly in binary. > > Learning to count in binary, > > gave her confidence > > and cleared up all her problems with the course, > > even though most of the course wasn't dealing with binary. > > Show me 1 person who can count properly in binary, and I'll > show you 2 people. > > Belden > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From extasia at extasia.org Thu Mar 6 19:06:22 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] (fwd) 12 lessons Message-ID: <20030306170622.A32518@gerasimov.net> [Philip: see , section entitled "What's an Ambassador?"] O.K. I figured someday I'd actually have to *do* something as perl ambassador. This was on the Washington, D.C. list. Can we help out Philip? I'll send anything we come up with to the dc list. (Or if you want, you can join the dc list yourself and interact directly with them. :-) ----- Forwarded message from Philip Hood ----- Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:49:35 -0500 (EST) From: Philip Hood To: dc@lists.pm.org Subject: [dcpm] 12 lessons Reply-To: dc@lists.pm.org hi - I was late to tuesdays meeting & couldn't get in the door, but I did write up this very brief sketch of an outline for the year long perl course, broken down into 12 sections. Can people critique (with suggestions for changes) on this outline - and help develop the outline into something that takes form ? Again, this is just a first pitch at the thing & contains my rough thinking on the thing, its in no way finalized. I'm also not overly protective of the thoughts, so feel free to rip it up into any intellectual shreds you'd like to. Again, the idea is that we need to be able to take a newbie, anyone who wants to get right on the boat at step 1 and take them right up to pretty "expert" level in about a years time, if they are willing to do a lot of work on their own, etc ... 1. the unix roots of perl. A discussion of some unix fundamentals, philosophy, the things that went into the creation of perl, a walk around different shells. system issues, these sorts of things. history of perl. perl community, perl philosophy and way of life - the phenomonology of perl, so to speak. 2. perl (and programming) fundamentals. conditionals, looping, subroutines, other basic things about perl. 3. regular expressions. regular expressions explored to a relatively indepth length. 4. more perl fundamentals. more indepth discussion of functions. 5. Data structures. an exploration of data structures in perl, very complex data structures, references, subroutinereferences. 6. packages and modules. how to use packages, loading new packages, namespaces. exploration of packages on cpan, etc. 7. perl for web. apache. mod-perl. html::mason, xml & perl. other web related perl services. sql and perl. cgi and perl. html and perl, etc. 8. Object oriented perl. Introduction. 9. Second class on object oriented perl. producing modules for cpan. 10. perl internals and other things not covered above. 11. developing perl. extended discussion on the the development of perl and the developers community. 12. more on developing perl towards perl 6 - with C. ml pth ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. *** Come to sig-beer-west! http://www.extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Unix sysadmin available: http://www.extasia.org/resume/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/oakland/attachments/20030306/17e8b043/attachment.bin From george at metaart.org Thu Mar 6 23:39:00 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] (fwd) 12 lessons In-Reply-To: <20030306170622.A32518@gerasimov.net> References: <20030306170622.A32518@gerasimov.net> Message-ID: <200303062139.00103.george@metaart.org> David A.: Thanks! -- George ..................... Ladies and gentlemen, the Oakland.pm ambassador to DC has made a request. What say you? .................... All, My initial thoughts are that the outline is generally a coherent suggestion given the stated aim. Personally, I'd want a lot more context before saying much more than that. For example, I'd be interested in knowing: 1. What's the format of this course? E.g. One session a week? One session a month? E.g. Two hours per session or what? 2. Where does the impetus for this class come from? E.g. People who wish to take the class? People who think that other people should learn these things? 3. Is there a pool of teacher prospects for teaching this course? What kinds of backgrounds do they have? Are they eager to teach such a course? 4. What is the working definition of expert being used? How do you determine if someone is an expert? (Hm, perhaps this context would be known to me, if I were part of DC.pm.) In any case, if the context has not been explicitly stated, my #1 suggestion would be to do that. George On Thursday 06 March 2003 5:06 pm, David Alban wrote: > [Philip: see , section > entitled "What's an Ambassador?"] > > O.K. I figured someday I'd actually have to *do* something as perl > ambassador. This was on the Washington, D.C. list. Can we help out > Philip? I'll send anything we come up with to the dc list. (Or if > you want, you can join the dc list yourself and interact directly > with them. :-) > > ----- Forwarded message from Philip Hood ----- > > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:49:35 -0500 (EST) > From: Philip Hood > To: dc@lists.pm.org > Subject: [dcpm] 12 lessons > Reply-To: dc@lists.pm.org > > hi - I was late to tuesdays meeting & couldn't get > in the door, but I did write up this very brief > sketch of an outline for the year long perl course, > broken down into 12 sections. Can people critique > (with suggestions for changes) on this outline - > and help develop the outline into something that > takes form ? Again, this is just a first pitch > at the thing & contains my rough thinking on the > thing, its in no way finalized. I'm also not > overly protective of the thoughts, so feel free > to rip it up into any intellectual shreds you'd > like to. Again, the idea is that we need to be > able to take a newbie, anyone who wants to get > right on the boat at step 1 and take them right > up to pretty "expert" level in about a years > time, if they are willing to do a lot of work > on their own, etc ... > > > 1. the unix roots of perl. A discussion of some > unix fundamentals, philosophy, the things that > went into the creation of perl, a walk around > different shells. system issues, these sorts of > things. history of perl. perl community, > perl philosophy and way of life - the > phenomonology of perl, so to speak. > > 2. perl (and programming) fundamentals. > conditionals, looping, subroutines, other > basic things about perl. > > 3. regular expressions. regular expressions > explored to a relatively indepth length. > > 4. more perl fundamentals. more indepth > discussion of functions. > > 5. Data structures. an exploration of data > structures in perl, very complex data structures, > references, subroutinereferences. > > 6. packages and modules. how to use packages, > loading new packages, namespaces. exploration of > packages on cpan, etc. > > 7. perl for web. apache. mod-perl. html::mason, > xml & perl. other web related perl services. sql > and perl. cgi and perl. html and perl, etc. > > 8. Object oriented perl. Introduction. > > 9. Second class on object oriented perl. producing > modules for cpan. > > 10. perl internals and other things not covered above. > > 11. developing perl. extended discussion on the > the development of perl and the developers community. > > 12. more on developing perl towards perl 6 - with > C. > > > ml > pth > > ----- End forwarded message ----- From george at metaart.org Fri Mar 7 12:20:51 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] (fwd) 12 lessons In-Reply-To: References: <20030306170622.A32518@gerasimov.net> <200303062139.00103.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200303071020.51153.george@metaart.org> Phillip, You have answered all 4 of my questions clearly and directly. Thanks. Your project sounds like an admirable one that addresses needs actually expressed within your community. The project sounds somewhat ambitious, but I gather you have a fairly large group to draw on for support and that people in your group want something like this fairly badly. Best wishes on this venture. -- George .......................... David A, If you are able, down the road it would be very kool to hear about the progress of this very interesting project. -- George .................................................................... On Friday 07 March 2003 8:31 am, Philip Hood wrote: > Hi - > Here's a rough sketch of answers to your > question - as much as possible I'd like this > to be a "group project", but I'll give my > vision for this: > > 1. The format of the course is 1 meeting > per month that went "as long as it needed to" - > I think that people's attention spans can > go no longer than about 3 hours, but I have > seen some meetings go 4 hours or more, but that > would be left up to the "instructor" and the > "students". I also think that a good deal of > the work will actually be done in discussion > on a mailing list on the months subjects. > > 2. The impetus comes from the fact that the > only thing that we all here seem to universally > agree with is that all want to increase our > perl knowledge and meetings that are actual > tutorials or increase knowledge in some way > or other are preferred over social type of > meetings. We've had meetings that cater to > different types of programmers, at different > levels and many folx, new and old to the group, > suggested that a coherent "track" of meetings, > that were structured around a twelve rung > learning ladder, that lasted a year in time, > would be helpful. It would probably turn more > people out to meetings than does our "hit and > miss" method of organizing meetings now & it > would probably keep people coming back. > > 3. The teachers would be group members of dc.pm > who are interested enough in making a presentation, > or we could structure something where groups of > members collaborated on research and a collection > of materials for each segment and a presenter > gave the information. There is no necessary level > of "expertise" necessary, more so than each > individual should realize that they will be asked > questions, maybe of an indepth level and they > will want to be able to answer. Everyone is going > to realize that the people giving of themselves > are doing it for the collective betterment of the > dc perl community, so I think most people are > going to be happy that we organized this up & > they have something to learn. The 12 rung ladder is > thought up as a "programmers helping programmers" > scenario that should be open to the widest possible > audience at the beginning and lead everyone towards > the highest level of development we can muster. > It should be free to all, that is, no one should > be turned away, although I can see it fair that a > collection could be taken by the "students" for > the "teacher." > > 4. "expert" is used in, I guess a relatively > loose sense, & I guess we make some suggestions > about what a "well rounded" perl programmer should > look like (excuse my puns all) - but by setting > up a structure to the series, we're saying that > an expert should, for instance, know the history > of perl and some indepth stuff about unix and > operating systems, they're > going to know how to use regular expressions really > well, they'll know all about perl and the web, > cgi, dbi, apache, mod-perl, they'll know about > perl internals, they'll know how to use OO with > perl, they'll know how to use modules from CPAN and > create modules for use on CPAN ... they should be able to > participate in the > development of perl and understand the internals > of perl 6. They'll know about the perl community > and resources and people in it, etc ... Again, > my break down is a fairly "political" one, I > mean, it attempts to suggest what a perl programmer > should know ... and > I've opened it out to the wider community for > comments, refocusing, development, agreement or > disagreement, as the case may be. Some may feel > that this list isn't entirely relevant & would > like to suggest another course & they should > feel free to suggest that. All it really > is is tool to help organize the group. It takes > on more life the more perl programmers take > part in it, agree to take responsibility for a > specific months class, etc ... > > Does this answer your questions ? Let me know. > > ml > pth > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, George Woolley wrote: > > David A.: Thanks! -- George > > > > ..................... > > > > Ladies and gentlemen, > > the Oakland.pm ambassador to DC has made a request. > > What say you? > > > > .................... > > > > All, My initial thoughts are that the outline is > > generally a coherent suggestion given the stated aim. > > > > Personally, I'd want a lot more context > > before saying much more than that. > > For example, I'd be interested in knowing: > > 1. What's the format of this course? > > E.g. One session a week? One session a month? > > E.g. Two hours per session or what? > > 2. Where does the impetus for this class come from? > > E.g. People who wish to take the class? > > People who think that other people should learn these things? > > 3. Is there a pool of teacher prospects for teaching this course? > > What kinds of backgrounds do they have? > > Are they eager to teach such a course? > > 4. What is the working definition of expert being used? > > How do you determine if someone is an expert? > > (Hm, perhaps this context would be known to me, > > if I were part of DC.pm.) > > In any case, if the context has not been explicitly stated, > > my #1 suggestion would be to do that. > > > > George From george at metaart.org Sun Mar 9 13:53:42 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Give a Talk? Message-ID: <200303091143.59822.george@metaart.org> Currently, we have two speakers scheduled: * David Fetter in April (I understand on some aspect of Perl basics) * Dan Meriwether in June (I think on using lwp to help defend a domain name). If anyone in the group would like to give a talk, that would be most appreciated. The talk could be on some aspect of (or have something to do with): * system administration * web sites, the World Wide Web, the Internet * data munging * the Perl language itself * the Open Source Movement * or whatever We can also talk about this at the meeting on Tuesday. From george at metaart.org Sun Mar 9 18:24:39 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Next Meeting: Tue. Mar. 11, 2003 Message-ID: <200303091624.39634.george@metaart.org> Cut & Paste from Our Website http://oakland.pm.org ------------------------------------- Come to our fifth meeting: * time: Tue. Mar. 11, 2003 7:30pm-9:30pm. (We meet each 2nd Tue.) * place: George Woolley's place 427 Burk St. #6, Oakland, CA 94610 directions * topics: * introductions * the future * mailing lists * meetings * website * ... * who: open to anyone interested. * cost: no fee for our meetings. From george at metaart.org Mon Mar 10 02:45:40 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Review of Larry Wall Article Message-ID: <200303100045.40424.george@metaart.org> There's a review of "Perl, the first postmodern computer language" at http://oakland.pm.org/reviews/postmodern.html I first read this piece by Larry Wall some time ago. But lately, I was drawn back to it and decided to write a review of it for our site. I'm hoping some other people will read it (or maybe have already). I'd be very interested in various people's thoughts, feelings, ... From george at metaart.org Wed Mar 12 17:16:05 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Newsletter of 2003-03-11 Message-ID: <200303121516.05428.george@metaart.org> The newsletter of 2003-03-11 is on our site at http://oakland.pm.org/oreilly/2003/newsletter_20030311.txt should you wish to read it. From a_lamothe at operamail.com Wed Mar 12 19:46:11 2003 From: a_lamothe at operamail.com (Adrien Lamothe) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Newsletter of 2003-03-11 Message-ID: <20030313014611.4370.qmail@operamail.com> Thanks for the URL, the newsletter is interesting. ----- Original Message ----- From: George Woolley Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:16:05 -0800 To: oakland@mail.pm.org Subject: [oak perl] Newsletter of 2003-03-11 > The newsletter of 2003-03-11 is on our site at > http://oakland.pm.org/oreilly/2003/newsletter_20030311.txt > should you wish to read it. > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland -- _______________________________________________ http://www.operamail.com Now with OperaMail Premium for only US$29.99/yr Powered by Outblaze From extasia at extasia.org Thu Mar 13 17:25:46 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] SIG-BEER-WEST this Saturday in San Francisco Message-ID: <20030313152546.A16065@gerasimov.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 SIG-beer-west Saturday, March 15, 2003 at 6:00pm San Francisco, CA Beer. Mental stimulation. This event: * Saturday, 03/15/2003, 6:00pm, at the Toronado, San Francisco Coming events (third Saturdays): * Saturday, 04/19/2003, 6:00pm * Saturday, 05/17/2003, 6:00pm * Saturday, 06/21/2003, 6:00pm * Saturday, 07/19/2003, 6:00pm San Francisco's next social event for computer sysadmins and their friends, sig-beer-west, will take place on Saturday, March 15, 2003 at the [1]Toronado in San Francisco, CA. The Toronado has an impressive selection of [2]draught and [3]bottled beer. Festivities will start at 6:00pm and continue until we've all left. The Toronado has an excellent selection of beer, but no food. It is perfectly okay to score food from neighboring establishments and bring it back to the Toronado to eat. Also, after we are all full with beer we may roam off to a nearby restaurant. [1] http://www.toronado.com/ [2] http://www.toronado.com/draft.htm [3] http://www.toronado.com/bottles.htm Everyone is welcome at this event. We mean it! Please feel free to forward this information and to invite friends, co-workers, and others who might enjoy lifting a glass with interesting folks from all over the place. (O.K., you do have to be of legal drinking age to attend.) For directions to the Toronado, please use the [4]excellent directions at their website. When you show up at the Toronado, you should look for some kind of botched sig-beer-west sign. We will try to make it obvious who we are. :-) [4] http://www.toronado.com/map.htm Note: Check the tables in the back room for us if you don't see us at the tables by the bar. The back room is back and to the left. Can't come this month? Mark your calendar for next month. sig-beer-west is always on the third Saturday of the month. Any Comments, Questions, or Suggestions of Things to Do Later on That Evening ... email [5]Fiid or [6]David. [5] fiid AT fiid DOT net [6] extasia AT extasia DOT org There is now a sig-beer-west mailing list. To subscribe, send an email with "subscribe" in the body to . sig-beer-west FAQ 1. Q: Your announcement says "computer sysadmins and their friends". How do I know if I'm a friend of a computer sysadmin? I don't even know what one is. A: You're a friend of a computer sysadmin if you can find the sig-beer-west sign at this month's sig-beer-west event. 2. Q: I'm not really a beer person. In fact I'm interested in hanging out, but not in drinking. Would I be welcome? A: Absolutely! The point is to hang out with fun, interesting folks. Please do join us. 3. Q: Is parking difficult around the Toronado, like maybe I should factor this into my travel time? A: Yes. ______________________________________________________________________ sig-beer-west was started in February 2002 when a couple Washington, D.C. based systems administrators who moved to the San Francisco Bay area wanted to continue a [7]dc-sage tradition, sig-beer, which is described in dc-sage web space as: SIG-beer, as in "Special Interest Group - Beer" ala ACM, or as in "send the BEER signal to that process". The original SIG-beer gathering takes place in Washington DC, usually on the first Saturday night of the month. [7] http://www.dc-sage.org/ ______________________________________________________________________ Last modified: $Date: 2003/03/13 22:50:32 $ - -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors. *** Come to sig-beer-west! http://www.extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Unix sysadmin available: http://www.extasia.org/resume/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+cRNePh0M9c/OpdARAjHRAJwN/P6fWWe0PQvExMhT09S+/ypu6wCguvmF SPGSm7SVldE5krNtXKEzNHs= =2dcH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From george at metaart.org Wed Mar 19 00:41:22 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Newsletter of 2003-03-18 Message-ID: <200303182241.22417.george@metaart.org> The newsletter of 2003-03-18 is on our site at http://oakland.pm.org/oreilly/2003/newsletter_20030318.txt should you wish to read it. From george at metaart.org Wed Mar 19 00:50:01 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] New Group Book? Message-ID: <200303182250.01309.george@metaart.org> It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? From george at metaart.org Sat Mar 22 17:34:02 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] New Group Book? In-Reply-To: <200303182250.01309.george@metaart.org> References: <200303182250.01309.george@metaart.org> Message-ID: <200303221534.02517.george@metaart.org> I received no suggestions, so I'll request something I think anyone in the group might read. On Tuesday 18 March 2003 10:50 pm, George Woolley wrote: > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland From george at metaart.org Sun Mar 23 10:04:44 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Re: Hello George, regarding book, etc. In-Reply-To: <3E7DD651.C7F88FBD@yahoo.com> References: <3E7DD651.C7F88FBD@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200303230804.44940.george@metaart.org> Ken, Good to hear from you. Thanks for watching the list. As you suggested, I am forwarding your email to the list. That's a lot of interesting suggestions. I'll keep them in mind for next time we have an opportunity for a free book. -- George Everyone, Well, ideas for next time we get a book would be kool. So, do you have any thoughts on Ken's suggestions? Any other thoughts? -- George On Sunday 23 March 2003 7:44 am, you wrote: > Hello George, > > Sorry that I haven't kept in contact lately. I'm still currently > occupied on Tue. evenings and unfortunately I've also temporarily lost > access to my account that the perl mailing list threads get sent to, but > don't worry about taking me off the list because I'm planning on somehow > regaining access to the account. In the meantime, I navigate through > the Oakland Perl web site and follow the threads a few times a week. > Since it looks like nobody through out suggestions, I thought I might > delinquently add my two cents. > > I think that O'Reilly has recently published the old perl journals in a > book authored or credited to John Orwant.I believe that it is titled > something like "Computer Science and Perl" or something like that. From > my understanding, it's pretty much just all of the perl journal articles > bundled in a book, so it probably doesn't add anything to anyones > interest if they already have all of the past journals but might be of > general interest for various people. Incidentally, it wouldn't be of > interest to me (even though I'm making the suggestion) since I actually > do have all of the past journals. Also, some of the stuff might be > outdated. > > Another possibility of general interest, but probably fairly heady > reading for some, is the Algorithms book (not sure of the exact title > but I think it has that word in it). I think that it's older. I've > never looked at it closely, but I think that it covers topics commonly > found in computer science data structures classes and such (set theory, > trees, etc.). I'm actually planning on purchasing it when I win the > lottery (or come up with 40 dollars, whichever comes first). > > Also, I noticed a new O'Reilly book out about programming graphics with > perl (not the TK book). That might be somewhat interesting if I get > beyond my initial 40 dollar goal. > > On a possibly related item, I wonder if O'Reilly has printed a perl book > specific to game programming. I think that it's a subtopic of the perl > journal collection book. > Lastly, when I used to go down to the Computer Literacy bookstore (which > I think eventually got transformed into Barnes and Nobles and shortly > thereafter disappeared), I noticed that they would sell several spiral > bound copies of books yet to be published (i.e. they were in their beta > form). They were fairly expensive but it just started making me wonder > if O'Reilly has ever donated copies of these types of books for > pre-released review by perl groups. > > Anyway, feel free to forward this to the group if you want just in case > someone decides to second or object to the book suggestions made above. > > Ken From george at metaart.org Tue Mar 25 19:20:14 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] A View of Perl Culture Message-ID: <200303251720.14529.george@metaart.org> I've created a page regarding some of my thoughts on Perl culture. See http://camelot.pm.org/culture.html I believe thoughts on this subject are particularly relevant to Oakland.pm at this time. I have the impression, especially from the recent planning meeting, that people in the group have radically different points of view on this. Furthermore, I have the impression that we don't have a very good understanding of each other's points of view. Well, I don't anyway. So I'm bringing attention to something I just wrote on Perl culture. I'd be very interested in your views, comments, etc. either on this list or by personal email or whatever. From a_lamothe at operamail.com Thu Mar 27 20:28:24 2003 From: a_lamothe at operamail.com (Adrien Lamothe) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] New Group Book? Message-ID: <20030328022824.14152.qmail@operamail.com> Two recent O'Reilly books that look interesting are "Perl for Web Site Management" and "Programming Web Services with Perl". The second title is very recent, the first was published last year. ----- Original Message ----- From: George Woolley Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 15:34:02 -0800 To: oakland@mail.pm.org Subject: Re: [oak perl] New Group Book? > I received no suggestions, > so I'll request something I think > anyone in the group might read. > > On Tuesday 18 March 2003 10:50 pm, George Woolley wrote: > > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? > > _______________________________________________ > > Oakland mailing list > > Oakland@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland > > _______________________________________________ > Oakland mailing list > Oakland@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/oakland -- ____________________________________________ http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze From george at metaart.org Fri Mar 28 01:11:53 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] New Group Book? In-Reply-To: <20030328022824.14152.qmail@operamail.com> References: <20030328022824.14152.qmail@operamail.com> Message-ID: <200303272311.53929.george@metaart.org> Adrien, Thanks for the thoughts re group books. I've found "Perl for Web Site Management" useful. -- George Everyone, Anyone else have any thought on books for the group? -- George On Thursday 27 March 2003 6:28 pm, Adrien Lamothe wrote: > Two recent O'Reilly books that look interesting are > "Perl for Web Site Management" and "Programming Web > Services with Perl". The second title is very recent, > the first was published last year. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George Woolley > Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 15:34:02 -0800 > To: oakland@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [oak perl] New Group Book? > > > I received no suggestions, > > so I'll request something I think > > anyone in the group might read. > > > > On Tuesday 18 March 2003 10:50 pm, George Woolley wrote: > > > It looks like we'll be getting another O'Reilly book for the group. > > > Does anyone have any suggestions for what book it should be? From george at metaart.org Sat Mar 29 15:52:54 2003 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:33:30 2004 Subject: [oak perl] Newsletter of 2003-03-28 Message-ID: <200303291352.54839.george@metaart.org> The newsletter of 2003-03-28 is on our site at http://oakland.pm.org/oreilly/2003/newsletter_20030328.txt should you wish to read it.