[Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace..

[Gypsy Rogers]

I agree with you Gary that I'm in a great position to continue to promote
perl. Also, this is a timely discussion for me because I've been debating
for nearly two months if it was time to transition my company from a
primarly perl company to a php company for the reasons I've already expressed. 

My company is in that stage of growth that every company driven by a
developer hits at some point when it tries to grow, what we need is more
bodies who grasp the basics of coding just to knock out stuff, not hard core
architecture and development work because as the owner of the company I can
still handle the majority of the actual engineering. 

For ME this is a very key turning point. Because I know I can bring in a
coder or two and teach them to be engineers using my thought process and
methodology helping me grow my company to the point that I'll be hiring at a
higher level next time around. So, looking at talent pools is where I start
to realize that by sticking with perl I box myself in to much fewer options,
even when I look at out-sourcers so few of them know perl that it's hardly
worth the effort of dealing with someone overseas. 

I'm sure several people on this list will write off my input because they
see me as trying to skimp or be cheap because I don't want to hire someone
at the level most perl guys come at but the fact is that I don't need one of
those guys, I need a code-monkey. And, the simple fact is that if my
perception (as a perl guy myself for 15+ years) is that the talent pool of
perl people is small and it will hinder my ability to grow my company then I
can't imagine the perception of people who have no religious affiliations to
perl.

But, yes, I will take that thought in that yes, I could probably hire a low
in php guy and teach him perl, they are very similar languages. So, now
instead of weighing the option of php vs perl for a direction of my company,
I will add to my option list (php guys learning perl). More to think on, oh
boy. :P

Perl is to PHP as FreeBSD is to Linux, and I haven't dropped FreeBSD yet
either. :P

(btw: I know at least one other company locally who is in the midst of the
exact same decision point, I know this because the owner of that company and
I have been talking at length, both of us weighing our options)



On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:31:49 -0500, Gary Allen Vollink
<Gary.Vollink at GMail.com> wrote :

> 
> Gypsy,
> 
> What you point out is very true: that, at this maturity level, Perl is niche
> in the marketplace.  That is self-fulfilling given your own search criteria.
>  Something I've learned though ... a good developer is a good developer,
> regardless of the language you give them.  An entry level programmer is
> entry level, regardless of language.  That collage degree pushes a lot of
> different languages on us for the very reason of making sure they can pick
> up a new language if that's where the job is.
> Maybe you give a PHP or C developer a chance to learn Perl for you.  The
> requirement of Perl for entry level is not necessarily realistic.  No more
> than looking for someone with Progress database experience, or Irix
> experience.  Not because these things are not useful or important, but
> because they are just far enough out of the primary education stream, that
> looking for an entry-level person who knows these systems is not easy to
> find.  Yet most Linux guys can find their way around Irix, and most Oracle
> people can understand Progress.
> 
> Even with direct Perl exposure, an entry-level person will require more time
> and patience to learn your systems anyway.  With learning Perl, like any
> language, the hardest part is learning what libraries are available and
> acceptable on your systems (which even experienced Perl programmers have to
> learn at each new site).
> 
> What I am saying here, is that you are in the BEST position to push Perl out
> into the world.  You do this by offering people the chance (and keeping your
> own interview skills sharp).  One new developer at a time.
> 
> Thank you,
> Gary Allen
> 
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Gypsy Rogers <gypsy at freeq.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > 7 years ago the same guy who would go for $25k right now would go for $40k.
> >
> > It is all supply and demand.
> >
> > But, I was just trying to give you a different perspective based on my own
> > experience.
> >
> > I know I can put a request out for a low end php guy in that price range
> > and
> > get more resume's then I have time to sort though, many with a degree
> > (because a lot of fresh grads are delivering pizza for a living right now
> > for less then that), but it's not the same for perl.
> >
> > I'm sure you can discount this perspective and shove your nose in the air
> > and say "yeah, well, we are better, and no-one you can hire at that rate
> > would have half a brain" but that exact attitude is what is killing perl.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:43:28 -0500, Gerd Knops <gerti-pm at bitart.com> wrote
> > :
> >
> > >
> > > On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Gypsy Rogers wrote:
> > > >
> > > > That being said, I fully admit to not using jobs.perl because I get
> > > > spammed
> > > > with $80k employees where I want a $25k to $35k employee and can get
> > > > one
> > > > with other languages to do the same jobs.
> > >
> > > I have to wonder how realistic it is to get anyone with a college
> > > degree for $25k to $35k. In companies I worked for entry-level salary
> > > for people with half a brain typically was in the mid-$40k range.
> > >
> > > Gerd
> > >
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> 
>