From nick-list at dytara.com Wed Oct 21 13:25:55 2009 From: nick-list at dytara.com (Nicholas Melnick) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:25:55 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8496481F-D13F-466B-B813-A4FC770CEFA3@dytara.com> Good afternoon, everyone. Something to throw out there on this Wednesday afternoon. The job market in Minneapolis isn't fantastic, but it's okay. Software jobs are out there, but the number of positions with the word 'Perl' in it dwindles daily. Budgets are going to be redone for the new year, and new jobs are going to open up as our economy is improving and confidence starts to lift up. How do we make sure "Perl" ends up on those job requirements? What can we, as developers, Perl users, and Minneapolis.pm do to evangelize and market Perl to this region? Curious if anyone has been thinking about the same. - Nick From gypsy at freeq.com Wed Oct 21 13:36:28 2009 From: gypsy at freeq.com (Gypsy Rogers) Date: 21 Oct 2009 15:36:28 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Message-ID: <20091021203628.64937.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> Really, it's a self for-filling prophecy in some ways. As someone who was once a perl evangelist as a developer I find myself revisiting my position as an employer. As I try hard to grow my company beyond myself and add talent in hopes of getting some low end people to take on my low hanging fruit work and leave me to deal with the more heady stuff what I find is everyone who answers to the call of "perl" has an ego and demands a high salary. Where as for the same jobs in php I can find cheap labor who is easier to direct and work with. I don't know the answer, because I really think perl has been choking on it's own culture of snootiness for a very long time. the perception is that perl is hard, those who don't know it scream it when it's thrown at them, and those who do know it foster this perception because it makes them seem superior. Personally, I think the problem is bigger then any one thing this group can do, and it may just be too late. On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:25:55 -0500, Nicholas Melnick wrote : > Good afternoon, everyone. > > Something to throw out there on this Wednesday afternoon. The job > market in Minneapolis isn't fantastic, but it's okay. Software jobs > are out there, but the number of positions with the word 'Perl' in it > dwindles daily. Budgets are going to be redone for the new year, and > new jobs are going to open up as our economy is improving and > confidence starts to lift up. > > How do we make sure "Perl" ends up on those job requirements? What can > we, as developers, Perl users, and Minneapolis.pm do to evangelize and > market Perl to this region? > > Curious if anyone has been thinking about the same. > > - Nick > _______________________________________________ > Mpls-pm mailing list > Mpls-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-pm > > > From perigrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 14:03:25 2009 From: perigrin at gmail.com (Chris Prather) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:03:25 -0400 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <20091021203628.64937.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> References: <20091021203628.64937.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> Message-ID: <12b83b2d0910211403y22bae194q69659b6a1a99ed16@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > > Really, it's a self for-filling prophecy in some ways. > > As someone who was once a perl evangelist as a developer I find myself > revisiting my position as an employer. > > As I try hard to grow my company beyond myself and add talent in hopes of > getting some low end people to take on my low hanging fruit work and leave > me to deal with the more heady stuff what I find is everyone who answers to > the call of "perl" has an ego and demands a high salary. Where as for the > same jobs in php I can find cheap labor who is easier to direct and work with. Define "High Salary"? I'm honestly curious what salary expectations are for Junior Perl people from other employers (I have recently started a Perl business). Salaries I've looked at are all over the map. The Perl market up there is also a *much* larger market than the one in Orlando as far as I can tell. So I'm curious what you're looking for in a developer and what kind of compensation you expect to be able to pay. > I don't know the answer, because I really think perl has been choking on > it's own culture of snootiness for a very long time. the perception is that > perl is hard, those who don't know it scream it when it's thrown at them, > and those who do know it foster this perception because it makes them seem > superior. Perl *is* hard, but that's because programming is hard. I have very little experience with PHP, but the little exposure I have had suggests that culturally it has pulled off the copy-and-paste culture that Perl had in the late 1990s. I'm probably wrong, but that's the impression that I get. This is a culture the Perl community spent the better part of this decade trying to get away from (rightly or wrongly) because people were using it as an excuse to promote "Enterprise Ready" langauges (Java, C#) vs "just a scripting language". > Personally, I think the problem is bigger then any one thing this group can > do, and it may just be too late. Sure if you look globally, the problem looks insolvable. The Cities have a good opportunity to re-build Perl culture. Frozen Perl draws a lot of talent from around the country to showcase Perl, I have been trying to replicate this with Perl Oasis personally. Supporting these efforts and getting young students fresh out of Uni who may not have *Perl* experience but who do have programming experience and the willingness to learn is a start ... so I guess I come back to what are *you* looking for in a Junior developer? Does that line up to what *others* are looking for? (I suspect it should). What can we as the Perl community do to help you find that? What can you as a Perl business owner do to help us help you? -Chris From gypsy at freeq.com Wed Oct 21 15:14:53 2009 From: gypsy at freeq.com (Gypsy Rogers) Date: 21 Oct 2009 17:14:53 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Message-ID: <20091021221453.72941.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> The short answer to the one question of definitions in my email is that if I have a simple thing that needs to be developed for a web site that task can at this time (in this culture) be accomplished cheaper by hiring a php programmer then by hiring a perl programmer 9 times out of 10. On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:03:25 -0400, Chris Prather wrote : > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > > > > > Really, it's a self for-filling prophecy in some ways. > > > > As someone who was once a perl evangelist as a developer I find myself > > revisiting my position as an employer. > > > > As I try hard to grow my company beyond myself and add talent in hopes of > > getting some low end people to take on my low hanging fruit work and leave > > me to deal with the more heady stuff what I find is everyone who answers to > > the call of "perl" has an ego and demands a high salary. Where as for the > > same jobs in php I can find cheap labor who is easier to direct and work with. > > Define "High Salary"? I'm honestly curious what salary expectations > are for Junior Perl people from other employers (I have recently > started a Perl business). Salaries I've looked at are all over the > map. The Perl market up there is also a *much* larger market than the > one in Orlando as far as I can tell. So I'm curious what you're > looking for in a developer and what kind of compensation you expect to > be able to pay. > > > I don't know the answer, because I really think perl has been choking on > > it's own culture of snootiness for a very long time. the perception is that > > perl is hard, those who don't know it scream it when it's thrown at them, > > and those who do know it foster this perception because it makes them seem > > superior. > > Perl *is* hard, but that's because programming is hard. I have very > little experience with PHP, but the little exposure I have had > suggests that culturally it has pulled off the copy-and-paste culture > that Perl had in the late 1990s. I'm probably wrong, but that's the > impression that I get. This is a culture the Perl community spent the > better part of this decade trying to get away from (rightly or > wrongly) because people were using it as an excuse to promote > "Enterprise Ready" langauges (Java, C#) vs "just a scripting > language". > > > Personally, I think the problem is bigger then any one thing this group can > > do, and it may just be too late. > > Sure if you look globally, the problem looks insolvable. The Cities > have a good opportunity to re-build Perl culture. Frozen Perl draws a > lot of talent from around the country to showcase Perl, I have been > trying to replicate this with Perl Oasis personally. Supporting these > efforts and getting young students fresh out of Uni who may not have > *Perl* experience but who do have programming experience and the > willingness to learn is a start ... so I guess I come back to what are > *you* looking for in a Junior developer? Does that line up to what > *others* are looking for? (I suspect it should). What can we as the > Perl community do to help you find that? What can you as a Perl > business owner do to help us help you? > > -Chris > > > From nick-list at dytara.com Wed Oct 21 15:40:22 2009 From: nick-list at dytara.com (Nicholas Melnick) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:40:22 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <20091021221453.72941.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> References: <> <20091021221453.72941.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> Message-ID: <212E34C0-E7CF-4285-A197-9769C78175C0@dytara.com> I suppose that ultimately, it's a matter of what you need accomplished and why. I'm self employed and freelancing here in Minneapolis, but I was in a few hiring positions while I was in Seattle. I found that I could get programmers of a higher caliber if I went with Perl developers over PHP developers. That being said, when we were hiring at a $30k-40k range, we'd certainly find many more PHP developers than Perl developers, but they were all pretty entry level, having either solid knowledge but no experience, or a lot of small experience but really inexperienced in creating maintainable, scalable designs. On average, a Perl programmer wants more money, but I've found that the contributions they make fall in line with what we had been paying them, minus one or two outliers. There is a culture problem, though, that you really hit in your earlier email. A lot of these PHP devs whine and moan when they have to work on Perl, but that's because bad Perl tends to look worse than bad PHP in web development, because there are more built-in facilities in PHP that the base level kid can use and be familiar with. The PHP community and howto guides constantly use Perl as the example of "wrong", so it's almost taught to every one of them that Perl is a terrible language. In Perl, you can find someone using five different styles of web development, forking, and other nonsense, and I have seen many applications that have made me nearly swear off Perl myself. Thing is, you can change culture. Perl was the top tool in the late 90s and early 2000s, but it was swept aside by low barriers to entry (This would be PHP, and note the similarities to the Visual Basic onslaught in the 90s), or sex and framework (This would be Ruby). We have Moose, we have DBIx::Class, we have Catalyst, we have a semi-sane threading model now, and incredible system and framework support. No one out there is really creating a unified movement to change how people feel about Perl, and promoting excellent Perl code. One thing I liked that Chris said was that it's hard to change the global perspective, but a culture can be changed here in the Twin Cities. In the late 90s, we had a booming culture of startups, but we're laying low now. Why not use this opportunity to promote Perl as an elegant, fast, rapid development language, at least here in the Cities? - Nick On Oct 21, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > The short answer to the one question of definitions in my email is > that if I > have a simple thing that needs to be developed for a web site that > task can > at this time (in this culture) be accomplished cheaper by hiring a php > programmer then by hiring a perl programmer 9 times out of 10. From nick-list at dytara.com Wed Oct 21 15:43:26 2009 From: nick-list at dytara.com (Nicholas Melnick) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:43:26 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <212E34C0-E7CF-4285-A197-9769C78175C0@dytara.com> References: <> <20091021221453.72941.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> <212E34C0-E7CF-4285-A197-9769C78175C0@dytara.com> Message-ID: <110AAD6C-BDC9-4C5F-98A4-712B830885C6@dytara.com> I also think we need to all get together some time soon, especially since our home page says that our next meeting is in December of 2008. :) - Nick From gypsy at freeq.com Wed Oct 21 17:45:44 2009 From: gypsy at freeq.com (Gypsy Rogers) Date: 21 Oct 2009 19:45:44 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Message-ID: <20091022004544.83693.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> I totally agree that the caliber of programmer who chooses perl over php is higher, the problem is that when you think about it from the perspective of a business owner. If you need a small project done (web forms and the like) then the php guy who can knock these things out are about $25k/yr, the equivalent perl guy is gonna run you $35k. A guy doing a job for $45k/yr in php, will cost you $60k/yr if he is a perl guy. and so on and so forth.... As a technologist I know the perl guy will have better practices and build better long term code, but as a business owner who has been doing web stuff for a very long time I know that 1) Most projects get written and left to do the same thing over and over again and never touched again until the next consultant comes along declares it crap and replaces it anyway, and 2) when you have an extra mouth to feed between gig's cheaper mouths hurt less. So, while I haven't gone the route of moving from perl to php I've been seriously considering it mainly because it's easier to find low end workers to do most of the grunt work when you are a php shop then a perl shop, and I can totally understand this trend. Kinda like those old frosted mini wheat commercials, the technologist in me loves perl, the business owner see's php as the better bang for the buck. From autarch at urth.org Wed Oct 21 18:37:56 2009 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:37:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <110AAD6C-BDC9-4C5F-98A4-712B830885C6@dytara.com> References: <> <20091021221453.72941.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> <212E34C0-E7CF-4285-A197-9769C78175C0@dytara.com> <110AAD6C-BDC9-4C5F-98A4-712B830885C6@dytara.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Nicholas Melnick wrote: > I also think we need to all get together some time soon, especially since our > home page says that our next meeting is in December of 2008. :) Well volunteered. The Mpls Perl Mongers have been in need of an active group leader for a while! -dave /*============================================================ http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org Your guide to all that's veg House Absolute(ly Pointless) ============================================================*/ From autarch at urth.org Wed Oct 21 21:03:55 2009 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:03:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <8496481F-D13F-466B-B813-A4FC770CEFA3@dytara.com> References: <8496481F-D13F-466B-B813-A4FC770CEFA3@dytara.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Nicholas Melnick wrote: > Minneapolis isn't fantastic, but it's okay. Software jobs are out there, but > the number of positions with the word 'Perl' in it dwindles daily. Budgets What do you base this latter assertion on? Jobs where Perl is the primary skill needed have always been relatively few compared to things like C, C++, and Java. Are you asserting that there are now significantly less Perl jobs in the past? I hear people say stuff like this, but whenever I'm seen any research on job numbers Perl seems to do ok. -dave /*============================================================ http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org Your guide to all that's veg House Absolute(ly Pointless) ============================================================*/ From nick-list at dytara.com Thu Oct 22 08:21:56 2009 From: nick-list at dytara.com (Nicholas Melnick) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:21:56 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: References: <8496481F-D13F-466B-B813-A4FC770CEFA3@dytara.com> Message-ID: <5D926EF7-2891-41DC-AA41-F327E63E85B2@dytara.com> Dave, I don't have hard data, just purely anecdotal from browsing Craigslist and Monster for the area. The number of jobs mentioning Perl doesn't seem to be significantly lower, but Perl as the primary language? Nearly nil around here. A lot of sysadmin and build engineer positions, very little on 'development'. - Nick On Oct 21, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Dave Rolsky wrote: > What do you base this latter assertion on? > > Jobs where Perl is the primary skill needed have always been > relatively few compared to things like C, C++, and Java. Are you > asserting that there are now significantly less Perl jobs in the past? > > I hear people say stuff like this, but whenever I'm seen any > research on job numbers Perl seems to do ok. > > > -dave From autarch at urth.org Thu Oct 22 08:43:28 2009 From: autarch at urth.org (Dave Rolsky) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:43:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <5D926EF7-2891-41DC-AA41-F327E63E85B2@dytara.com> References: <8496481F-D13F-466B-B813-A4FC770CEFA3@dytara.com> <5D926EF7-2891-41DC-AA41-F327E63E85B2@dytara.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 2009, Nicholas Melnick wrote: > I don't have hard data, just purely anecdotal from browsing Craigslist and > Monster for the area. The number of jobs mentioning Perl doesn't seem to be > significantly lower, but Perl as the primary language? Nearly nil around > here. A lot of sysadmin and build engineer positions, very little on > 'development'. I'm not sure that really says anything other than that jobs with Perl aren't found on Craiglist and Monster. I've been involved in hiring at several places I've worked in the past. When I've had my way, we've never posted the job on Monster. That's pretty bottom of the barrel, and doesn't get good candidates. My feeling towards Craiglist is the same, at least for programming positions. That doesn't prove anything other than my personal biases, but I wouldn't be surprised if companies using Perl tend to find candidates other ways, including the Perl jobs site or other job sites that attract a better crowd (stack overflow, O'Reilly, 37 signals). I think Monster and Craiglist are mostly used by big companies with big, clueless HR departments, and/or recruiters. They're great for bringing in lots of warm bodies, but they don't attract _good_ developers. Also, the job market as a whole for developers has been way done for quite some time. Maybe companies using Perl have been particularly hard hit. Considering that one of Perl's biggest niches is the financial industry, this wouldn't be surprising. -dave /*============================================================ http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org Your guide to all that's veg House Absolute(ly Pointless) ============================================================*/ From gypsy at freeq.com Thu Oct 22 09:03:12 2009 From: gypsy at freeq.com (Gypsy Rogers) Date: 22 Oct 2009 11:03:12 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Message-ID: <20091022160312.57280.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> How is this for "anecdotal data", the last 3 recruiters I talked to as an employer said they had no-one in their database with Perl on their resume. When I was using recruiters to find contract work I was NEVER called for perl, it was always dot-net, Java, and Php. Also, just about every fresh grad I've talked to in the last few years has had zero exposure to perl through school, if they have any exposure it was because they picked it up on their own or had a sys-admin job. So, again, as an employer, my problem is that when I want an entry level programmer I can't use perl. That being said, I fully admit to not using jobs.perl because I get spammed with $80k employees where I want a $25k to $35k employee and can get one with other languages to do the same jobs. On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:43:28 -0500 (CDT), Dave Rolsky wrote : > On Thu, 22 Oct 2009, Nicholas Melnick wrote: > > > I don't have hard data, just purely anecdotal from browsing Craigslist and > > Monster for the area. The number of jobs mentioning Perl doesn't seem to be > > significantly lower, but Perl as the primary language? Nearly nil around > > here. A lot of sysadmin and build engineer positions, very little on > > 'development'. > > I'm not sure that really says anything other than that jobs with Perl > aren't found on Craiglist and Monster. > > I've been involved in hiring at several places I've worked in the past. > When I've had my way, we've never posted the job on Monster. That's pretty > bottom of the barrel, and doesn't get good candidates. My feeling towards > Craiglist is the same, at least for programming positions. > > That doesn't prove anything other than my personal biases, but I wouldn't > be surprised if companies using Perl tend to find candidates other ways, > including the Perl jobs site or other job sites that attract a better > crowd (stack overflow, O'Reilly, 37 signals). > > I think Monster and Craiglist are mostly used by big companies with big, > clueless HR departments, and/or recruiters. They're great for bringing in > lots of warm bodies, but they don't attract _good_ developers. > > Also, the job market as a whole for developers has been way done for quite > some time. Maybe companies using Perl have been particularly hard hit. > Considering that one of Perl's biggest niches is the financial industry, > this wouldn't be surprising. > > > -dave > > /*============================================================ > http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org > Your guide to all that's veg House Absolute(ly Pointless) > ============================================================*/ > _______________________________________________ > Mpls-pm mailing list > Mpls-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-pm > > > From gerti-pm at bitart.com Thu Oct 22 09:43:28 2009 From: gerti-pm at bitart.com (Gerd Knops) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:43:28 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <20091022160312.57280.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> References: <> <20091022160312.57280.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > That being said, I fully admit to not using jobs.perl because I get > spammed > with $80k employees where I want a $25k to $35k employee and can get > one > with other languages to do the same jobs. I have to wonder how realistic it is to get anyone with a college degree for $25k to $35k. In companies I worked for entry-level salary for people with half a brain typically was in the mid-$40k range. Gerd From gypsy at freeq.com Thu Oct 22 10:07:07 2009 From: gypsy at freeq.com (Gypsy Rogers) Date: 22 Oct 2009 12:07:07 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Message-ID: <20091022170707.62150.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> 7 years ago the same guy who would go for $25k right now would go for $40k. It is all supply and demand. But, I was just trying to give you a different perspective based on my own experience. I know I can put a request out for a low end php guy in that price range and get more resume's then I have time to sort though, many with a degree (because a lot of fresh grads are delivering pizza for a living right now for less then that), but it's not the same for perl. I'm sure you can discount this perspective and shove your nose in the air and say "yeah, well, we are better, and no-one you can hire at that rate would have half a brain" but that exact attitude is what is killing perl. On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:43:28 -0500, Gerd Knops wrote : > > On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > > > That being said, I fully admit to not using jobs.perl because I get > > spammed > > with $80k employees where I want a $25k to $35k employee and can get > > one > > with other languages to do the same jobs. > > I have to wonder how realistic it is to get anyone with a college > degree for $25k to $35k. In companies I worked for entry-level salary > for people with half a brain typically was in the mid-$40k range. > > Gerd > > _______________________________________________ > Mpls-pm mailing list > Mpls-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-pm > > > From Gary.Vollink at GMail.com Thu Oct 22 10:31:49 2009 From: Gary.Vollink at GMail.com (Gary Allen Vollink) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:31:49 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <20091022170707.62150.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> References: <20091022170707.62150.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> Message-ID: <6c2c8e410910221031x166aee15v196b91493448b0d1@mail.gmail.com> Gypsy, What you point out is very true: that, at this maturity level, Perl is niche in the marketplace. That is self-fulfilling given your own search criteria. Something I've learned though ... a good developer is a good developer, regardless of the language you give them. An entry level programmer is entry level, regardless of language. That collage degree pushes a lot of different languages on us for the very reason of making sure they can pick up a new language if that's where the job is. Maybe you give a PHP or C developer a chance to learn Perl for you. The requirement of Perl for entry level is not necessarily realistic. No more than looking for someone with Progress database experience, or Irix experience. Not because these things are not useful or important, but because they are just far enough out of the primary education stream, that looking for an entry-level person who knows these systems is not easy to find. Yet most Linux guys can find their way around Irix, and most Oracle people can understand Progress. Even with direct Perl exposure, an entry-level person will require more time and patience to learn your systems anyway. With learning Perl, like any language, the hardest part is learning what libraries are available and acceptable on your systems (which even experienced Perl programmers have to learn at each new site). What I am saying here, is that you are in the BEST position to push Perl out into the world. You do this by offering people the chance (and keeping your own interview skills sharp). One new developer at a time. Thank you, Gary Allen On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > > 7 years ago the same guy who would go for $25k right now would go for $40k. > > It is all supply and demand. > > But, I was just trying to give you a different perspective based on my own > experience. > > I know I can put a request out for a low end php guy in that price range > and > get more resume's then I have time to sort though, many with a degree > (because a lot of fresh grads are delivering pizza for a living right now > for less then that), but it's not the same for perl. > > I'm sure you can discount this perspective and shove your nose in the air > and say "yeah, well, we are better, and no-one you can hire at that rate > would have half a brain" but that exact attitude is what is killing perl. > > > > On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:43:28 -0500, Gerd Knops wrote > : > > > > > On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > > > > > That being said, I fully admit to not using jobs.perl because I get > > > spammed > > > with $80k employees where I want a $25k to $35k employee and can get > > > one > > > with other languages to do the same jobs. > > > > I have to wonder how realistic it is to get anyone with a college > > degree for $25k to $35k. In companies I worked for entry-level salary > > for people with half a brain typically was in the mid-$40k range. > > > > Gerd > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mpls-pm mailing list > > Mpls-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpls-pm mailing list > Mpls-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gypsy at freeq.com Thu Oct 22 12:07:42 2009 From: gypsy at freeq.com (Gypsy Rogers) Date: 22 Oct 2009 14:07:42 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Message-ID: <20091022190742.71743.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> I agree with you Gary that I'm in a great position to continue to promote perl. Also, this is a timely discussion for me because I've been debating for nearly two months if it was time to transition my company from a primarly perl company to a php company for the reasons I've already expressed. My company is in that stage of growth that every company driven by a developer hits at some point when it tries to grow, what we need is more bodies who grasp the basics of coding just to knock out stuff, not hard core architecture and development work because as the owner of the company I can still handle the majority of the actual engineering. For ME this is a very key turning point. Because I know I can bring in a coder or two and teach them to be engineers using my thought process and methodology helping me grow my company to the point that I'll be hiring at a higher level next time around. So, looking at talent pools is where I start to realize that by sticking with perl I box myself in to much fewer options, even when I look at out-sourcers so few of them know perl that it's hardly worth the effort of dealing with someone overseas. I'm sure several people on this list will write off my input because they see me as trying to skimp or be cheap because I don't want to hire someone at the level most perl guys come at but the fact is that I don't need one of those guys, I need a code-monkey. And, the simple fact is that if my perception (as a perl guy myself for 15+ years) is that the talent pool of perl people is small and it will hinder my ability to grow my company then I can't imagine the perception of people who have no religious affiliations to perl. But, yes, I will take that thought in that yes, I could probably hire a low in php guy and teach him perl, they are very similar languages. So, now instead of weighing the option of php vs perl for a direction of my company, I will add to my option list (php guys learning perl). More to think on, oh boy. :P Perl is to PHP as FreeBSD is to Linux, and I haven't dropped FreeBSD yet either. :P (btw: I know at least one other company locally who is in the midst of the exact same decision point, I know this because the owner of that company and I have been talking at length, both of us weighing our options) On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:31:49 -0500, Gary Allen Vollink wrote : > > Gypsy, > > What you point out is very true: that, at this maturity level, Perl is niche > in the marketplace. That is self-fulfilling given your own search criteria. > Something I've learned though ... a good developer is a good developer, > regardless of the language you give them. An entry level programmer is > entry level, regardless of language. That collage degree pushes a lot of > different languages on us for the very reason of making sure they can pick > up a new language if that's where the job is. > Maybe you give a PHP or C developer a chance to learn Perl for you. The > requirement of Perl for entry level is not necessarily realistic. No more > than looking for someone with Progress database experience, or Irix > experience. Not because these things are not useful or important, but > because they are just far enough out of the primary education stream, that > looking for an entry-level person who knows these systems is not easy to > find. Yet most Linux guys can find their way around Irix, and most Oracle > people can understand Progress. > > Even with direct Perl exposure, an entry-level person will require more time > and patience to learn your systems anyway. With learning Perl, like any > language, the hardest part is learning what libraries are available and > acceptable on your systems (which even experienced Perl programmers have to > learn at each new site). > > What I am saying here, is that you are in the BEST position to push Perl out > into the world. You do this by offering people the chance (and keeping your > own interview skills sharp). One new developer at a time. > > Thank you, > Gary Allen > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > > > > > > 7 years ago the same guy who would go for $25k right now would go for $40k. > > > > It is all supply and demand. > > > > But, I was just trying to give you a different perspective based on my own > > experience. > > > > I know I can put a request out for a low end php guy in that price range > > and > > get more resume's then I have time to sort though, many with a degree > > (because a lot of fresh grads are delivering pizza for a living right now > > for less then that), but it's not the same for perl. > > > > I'm sure you can discount this perspective and shove your nose in the air > > and say "yeah, well, we are better, and no-one you can hire at that rate > > would have half a brain" but that exact attitude is what is killing perl. > > > > > > > > On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:43:28 -0500, Gerd Knops wrote > > : > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > > > > > > > > That being said, I fully admit to not using jobs.perl because I get > > > > spammed > > > > with $80k employees where I want a $25k to $35k employee and can get > > > > one > > > > with other languages to do the same jobs. > > > > > > I have to wonder how realistic it is to get anyone with a college > > > degree for $25k to $35k. In companies I worked for entry-level salary > > > for people with half a brain typically was in the mid-$40k range. > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Mpls-pm mailing list > > > Mpls-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-pm > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mpls-pm mailing list > > Mpls-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-pm > > > > From perigrin at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 12:35:22 2009 From: perigrin at gmail.com (Chris Prather) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:35:22 -0400 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <20091022190742.71743.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> References: <20091022190742.71743.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> Message-ID: <12b83b2d0910221235q5168de77sf60b63b3ea2b230b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Gypsy Rogers wrote: > But, yes, I will take that thought in that yes, I could probably hire a low > in php guy and teach him perl, they are very similar languages. So, now > instead of weighing the option of php vs perl for a direction of my company, > I will add to my option list (php guys learning perl). More to think on, oh > boy. :P > > Perl is to PHP as FreeBSD is to Linux, and I haven't dropped FreeBSD yet > either. :P > > (btw: I know at least one other company locally who is in the midst of the > exact same decision point, I know this because the owner of that company and > I have been talking at length, both of us weighing our options) I worked at one large corporation that trained overseas Java programmers to work on their Perl code base, and I worked with another that was seriously considering it. The problems they had weren't language related but more organizational, outsourcing is hard. I personally find that the people coming into #moose with a background in C++, Java, Haskell, OCaml, CLOS or some other "esoteric" language tend to be able to grasp some concepts faster than people who have a long history with Perl. Most kids fresh out of college know Java, C, or Pascal (or some combination of those), having them learn to use modern Perl idioms would be interesting and would grow the local Perl market for talent. -Chris From gypsy at freeq.com Thu Oct 22 12:49:22 2009 From: gypsy at freeq.com (Gypsy Rogers) Date: 22 Oct 2009 14:49:22 -0500 Subject: [Mpls-pm] Food for Thought, on Perl in the Minneapolis marketplace.. In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Message-ID: <20091022194922.74968.qmail@iphouse.gypsy.org> > That's > quite true. But I think, it often applies to the supply and demand for > the products of hiring business too. I bet you have lots of different > challenges running a small consulting business, you mention that your > business is often under constant cost pressures from competition. Is > that a fair statement? Absolutely, I'm constantly fighting the battle between quality and price, and I'm always competing with people who are using over seas cheap labor. Or that the nephew of the hair dresser's wife. > > > I know I can put a request out for a low end php guy in that price range and > > get more resume's then I have time to sort though, many with a degree > > (because a lot of fresh grads are delivering pizza for a living right now > > for less then that), but it's not the same for perl. > > Do > you think part of this is demographics too? I think the majority of > Perl coders are at a different part of their careers than PHP coders. I > have no way to compare this to PHP coders but I did read (and fill out) > the Perl survey's for the last few years, that indicated many more folks > Again, yes, demographics are a big part of it. 10 years ago entry level perl guys were in abundance these days the toy is php. Everyone who learned perl when it was an entry language is much more mature then I need right now. > I found it interesting that > you choose not to use the jobs.perl.org site to look for employees. I > guess i would have thought that with a salary range listed that you > could have had a better selection of matching candidates. Did you get a lot of replies from overseas as well? > Last time I used jobs.perl.org I received applications from overseas contractors when I want someone in my office once a week, and people asking for twice the rate I was looking to pay. That being said, this thread did push me to go ahead and post again to jobs.perl.org even though I don't have much confidence just to say I did and give it a chance. > I > think maybe that part of this thread that is most sad is not the lack > of Perl jobs but the lack of new software/web app/internal startups in > the Twin Cities. I lurk on the minnebar, minnedemo, mpls ruby list and > others, there are few mentions of new ventures but not many. I would > like to blame the general economy for this but I'm not sure that is the > case. It seemed that this area had a fairly large drop of new ventures > after the dotcom bubble burst. Maybe this is part of an maturing > development community that whats less risk in life. Or maybe just a > complete lack of funding sources. Or Both :) > > I would love to > hear about different perspectives on the startup software/internet/web > startups/new company state in the Twin Cities. > Actually, there is no lack of startups, there is a lack of investment money for startups, there is a significant difference there. Part of my business model is to be technology partners for startups where my company provides the development for them in exchange for equity base. I turn down potential clients in that arena daily. The problem is that the perception of the investment community is that dotcoms are dangerous because of the dotcom bubble. The bane of all technology seems to be a lack of understanding from the outside world. I find myself so often trying to have one foot in each of these worlds and it's a hard balancing act to keep. > Take Care, > > Lee > > >