From ddick at iinet.net.au Mon Jun 1 04:29:12 2015 From: ddick at iinet.net.au (David Dick) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 21:29:12 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556C4208.5080300@iinet.net.au> On 06/01/2015 08:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > ?Its been a sad few days.? > > ?For the ? > ?passed ? > 7 years > ?, ? > DealMax > ?has been? > a > ? proud Perl shop > ?. We've written a lot of code over that time. I'm quite proud of what > we managed to acheive with so little resoruces and constantly changing > requirements.? I largely attribute our ability to weather various > storms to having a fast, lean and expressive language at our core. I > have fought valiantly to keep it, but sadly, it is not to be: > > ? > ?It ? > has now become a condition of funding > ?that we move to a more mainstream technology > ?. > > Bugger. Yeah, that's upsetting. My sympathies. I'll buy you a beer at the next meeting! Cheers Dave From melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx Mon Jun 1 04:56:12 2015 From: melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 21:56:12 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <556C4208.5080300@iinet.net.au> References: <556C4208.5080300@iinet.net.au> Message-ID: Speaking of the next meeting... On 1 June 2015 at 21:29, David Dick wrote: > On 06/01/2015 08:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > >> ?Its been a sad few days.? >> >> ?For the ? >> ?passed ? >> 7 years >> ?, ? >> DealMax >> ?has been? >> a >> ? proud Perl shop >> ?. We've written a lot of code over that time. I'm quite proud of what >> we managed to acheive with so little resoruces and constantly changing >> requirements.? I largely attribute our ability to weather various >> storms to having a fast, lean and expressive language at our core. I >> have fought valiantly to keep it, but sadly, it is not to be: >> >> ? >> ?It ? >> has now become a condition of funding >> ?that we move to a more mainstream technology >> ?. >> >> Bugger. >> > > Yeah, that's upsetting. My sympathies. I'll buy you a beer at the next > meeting! > > Cheers > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Tue Jun 2 20:43:11 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 13:43:11 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <556C4208.5080300@iinet.net.au> Message-ID: On 1 June 2015 at 21:56, Stephen Edmonds wrote: > Speaking of the next meeting... > ?I'm free for new Wednesday. Is there enough inside seating at The ?Mitre? Its going to be cold. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx Tue Jun 2 22:28:52 2015 From: melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 15:28:52 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <556C4208.5080300@iinet.net.au> Message-ID: On 3 June 2015 at 13:43, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > > On 1 June 2015 at 21:56, Stephen Edmonds wrote: > >> Speaking of the next meeting... >> > > ?I'm free for new Wednesday. Is there enough inside seating at The > ?Mitre? Its going to be cold. > The main area inside at The Mitre is used for trivia on Wednesday nights, from memory there is another area but that it smaller. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Tue Jun 2 22:49:49 2015 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 15:49:49 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> So, what language or languages are approved of by investors? ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > To: "melbourne-pm" > Sent: Monday, 1 June, 2015 8:44:41 AM > Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > ?Its been a sad few days.? > > ?For the ? > ?passed ? > 7 years > ?, ? > DealMax > ?has been? > a > ? proud Perl shop > ?. We've written a lot of code over that time. I'm quite proud of what we > managed to acheive with so little resoruces and constantly changing > requirements.? I largely attribute our ability to weather various storms to > having a fast, lean and expressive language at our core. I have fought > valiantly to keep it, but sadly, it is not to be: > > ? > ?It ? > has now become a condition of funding > ?that we move to a more mainstream technology > ?. > > Bugger. > > Kal > ? > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > Suite 1416 > 401 Docklands Drive > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Tue Jun 2 23:01:51 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 16:01:51 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: He he. The reasons are quite funny. Java because its faster and more memory efficient than interpreted languages like Perl. PHP because Facebook uses it and you can easily outsource development to India. .Net because, well, its obviously the industry standard. Python because its got all the data bindings you could possible want, and data is important -- BIG DATA -- right? I've opted for Python as the lesser of the various evils. K Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal Suite 1416 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 On 3 June 2015 at 15:49, Toby Corkindale < toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au> wrote: > So, what language or languages are approved of by investors? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > > To: "melbourne-pm" > > Sent: Monday, 1 June, 2015 8:44:41 AM > > Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > > > ?Its been a sad few days.? > > > > ?For the ? > > ?passed ? > > 7 years > > ?, ? > > DealMax > > ?has been? > > a > > ? proud Perl shop > > ?. We've written a lot of code over that time. I'm quite proud of what we > > managed to acheive with so little resoruces and constantly changing > > requirements.? I largely attribute our ability to weather various storms > to > > having a fast, lean and expressive language at our core. I have fought > > valiantly to keep it, but sadly, it is not to be: > > > > ? > > ?It ? > > has now become a condition of funding > > ?that we move to a more mainstream technology > > ?. > > > > Bugger. > > > > Kal > > ? > > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > > > Suite 1416 > > 401 Docklands Drive > > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dean at fragfest.com.au Wed Jun 3 09:02:17 2015 From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 02:02:17 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> Developing in java is, in my opinion, a huge liability. Nothing to do with the language itself, just that you have to deal with issues between openjdk, oracle and potentially ibm's java. If you pick one, whatever version you are on will soon be out of date and broken in new versions. I also wouldnt associate the word "performance" with java. Sure, you can write performant code (as you can in any language) - ive just not seen it that often. That Ruby isn't on the list is interesting. Dean On 2015-06-03 16:01, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > He he. The reasons are quite funny. > > Java because its faster and more memory efficient than interpreted languages like Perl. > PHP because Facebook uses it and you can easily outsource development to India. > .Net because, well, its obviously the industry standard. > Python because its got all the data bindings you could possible want, and data is important -- BIG DATA -- right? > > I've opted for Python as the lesser of the various evils. > > K > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > Suite 1416 > 401 Docklands Drive > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > On 3 June 2015 at 15:49, Toby Corkindale wrote: > >> So, what language or languages are approved of by investors? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kahlil Hodgson" >>> To: "melbourne-pm" >>> Sent: Monday, 1 June, 2015 8:44:41 AM >>> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon >>> >> >>> Its been a sad few days. >>> >>> For the >>> passed >>> 7 years >>> , >>> DealMax >>> has been >>> a >>> proud Perl shop >>> . We've written a lot of code over that time. I'm quite proud of what we >>> managed to acheive with so little resoruces and constantly changing >>> requirements. I largely attribute our ability to weather various storms to >>> having a fast, lean and expressive language at our core. I have fought >>> valiantly to keep it, but sadly, it is not to be: >>> >>> >>> It >>> has now become a condition of funding >>> that we move to a more mainstream technology >>> . >>> >>> Bugger. >>> >>> Kal >>> >>> >>> Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 >>> Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 [1] >>> DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal >>> >>> Suite 1416 >>> 401 Docklands Drive >>> Docklands VIC 3008 Australia >>> >>> "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that >>> the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, >>> if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all >>> means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Melbourne-pm mailing list >>> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [2] > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [2] Links: ------ [1] tel:%2B61%20%280%29%204%202573%200382 [2] http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Wed Jun 3 17:28:27 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 10:28:27 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> Message-ID: On 4 June 2015 at 02:02, Dean Hamstead wrote: > That Ruby isn't on the list is interesting. ?Believe it or not, Ruby seems to be regarded as a fad by the "tame geeks" that venture capital funds have been sending to us to perform "technical due diligence" on our copmany. Perl 5 was born in 1994 and Ruby in 1995, so that's one year between being perceived as obsolete or a fad. The battles I've been fighting with regards to this are not technical or even rational, but social and political. Its all about the perceptions of the powerful, which are hard to influence unless you are already very successful, and at which point you no longer need to influence them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Wed Jun 3 18:44:53 2015 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 11:44:53 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> Message-ID: <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Hi Dean, Of course, you can write poorly-performing code in any language, Perl included. I'd go so far as to say that Perl even encourages it, by making it easy for developers to do awful things such as grabbing the result of shelling out and running another command. But if you're comparing well-written code in Perl with well-written code executing on an appropriate* JVMs, then the JVM will win, hands down, every time. I say "appropriate* JVM" because there are quite a few different jvm engines around by now; some of them designed to be lightweight, fast-startup, memory-efficient affairs, and some designed to be highly-tunable and as fast as possible for longer-running processes. If you want to make the jvm look bad, it's easy to select an engine that's tuned against your benchmark needs. I think you overstate differences between the major vendors; and Java has been pretty good about maintaining backwards compatibility. Care to state any examples? Meanwhile, it's not like Perl has a stellar track record there either. Toby ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dean Hamstead" > To: melbourne-pm at pm.org > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 2:02:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > Developing in java is, in my opinion, a huge liability. > > Nothing to do with the language itself, just that you have to deal with > issues between openjdk, oracle and potentially ibm's java. If you pick one, > whatever version you are on will soon be out of date and broken in new > versions. > > I also wouldnt associate the word "performance" with java. Sure, you can > write performant code (as you can in any language) - ive just not seen it > that often. From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Wed Jun 3 19:13:21 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:13:21 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: On 4 June 2015 at 11:44, Toby Corkindale < toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au> wrote: > I say "appropriate* JVM" because there are quite a few different jvm > engines around by now; some of them designed to be lightweight, > fast-startup, memory-efficient affairs, and some designed to be > highly-tunable and as fast as possible for longer-running processes. If you > want to make the jvm look bad, it's easy to select an engine that's tuned > against your benchmark needs. ?I last wrote Java code at 1.5 (before they dropped the '1.' prefix). At the time I was only aware of the JVM from Sun and the new Open Source one that was being developed. I really haven't followed Java that closely since. These lightweight JVMs sound interesting. I gather that's why my Android phone is usable. Any pointers to other JVMs? K ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Wed Jun 3 19:44:48 2015 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:44:48 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Apologies for broken quoting below; the work email system seems to suck in that regard. There is a list of a hundred JVMs on wikipedia[1] but for ones actually worth looking at, I'd say they are: The original - Oracle/OpenJDK 8. Oracle's version is based off OpenJDK these days, so is pretty similar on x64 architectures, but they seem to have a much better ARM implementation. I haven't seen openjdk8 packages for major distros yet, but Oracle's has been around for a while so that's what I've been using. You get both the regular hotspot, and also the "Zero" backend as part of openjdk. Zero being portable and a bit lighter. Avian -- lightweight, efficient, generates small code. Azul Zing -- designed for really heavyweight, memory-churning, latency-sensitive programs. JamVM -- Another small and lean JVM. I think OpenJDK's Zero backend ended up being a bit better, but before Avian and Zero came along, this was the "light" jvm of choice. You've heard of Dalvik, which is behind the Android OS, which is the JVM in everything but name. (I've written apps in Scala and then had them run on Android) I don't think anyone really uses it on its own though. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > To: "melbourne-pm" > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 12:13:21 PM > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > > On 4 June 2015 at 11:44, Toby Corkindale < > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au > wrote: > > > I say "appropriate* JVM" because there are quite a few different jvm engines > around by now; some of them designed to be lightweight, fast-startup, > memory-efficient affairs, and some designed to be highly-tunable and as fast > as possible for longer-running processes. If you want to make the jvm look > bad, it's easy to select an engine that's tuned against your benchmark > needs. > > ?I last wrote Java code at 1.5 (before they dropped the '1.' prefix). At the > time I was only aware of the JVM from Sun and the new Open Source one that > was being developed. I really haven't followed Java that closely since. > These lightweight JVMs sound interesting. I gather that's why my Android > phone is usable. Any pointers to other JVMs? > > K ? > > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Wed Jun 3 20:28:19 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 13:28:19 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks muchly for the pointers! Fedora 21 comes with OpenJDK 8 so I'm in luck if I want to play with Zero. Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal Suite 1416 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 On 4 June 2015 at 12:44, Toby Corkindale < toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au> wrote: > Apologies for broken quoting below; the work email system seems to suck in > that regard. > > There is a list of a hundred JVMs on wikipedia[1] but for ones actually > worth looking at, I'd say they are: > The original - Oracle/OpenJDK 8. Oracle's version is based off OpenJDK > these days, so is pretty similar on x64 architectures, but they seem to > have a much better ARM implementation. > I haven't seen openjdk8 packages for major distros yet, but Oracle's has > been around for a while so that's what I've been using. > You get both the regular hotspot, and also the "Zero" backend as part of > openjdk. Zero being portable and a bit lighter. > > Avian -- lightweight, efficient, generates small code. > > Azul Zing -- designed for really heavyweight, memory-churning, > latency-sensitive programs. > > JamVM -- Another small and lean JVM. I think OpenJDK's Zero backend ended > up being a bit better, but before Avian and Zero came along, this was the > "light" jvm of choice. > > You've heard of Dalvik, which is behind the Android OS, which is the JVM > in everything but name. (I've written apps in Scala and then had them run > on Android) > I don't think anyone really uses it on its own though. > > 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > > To: "melbourne-pm" > > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 12:13:21 PM > > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > > > > > On 4 June 2015 at 11:44, Toby Corkindale < > > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au > wrote: > > > > > > I say "appropriate* JVM" because there are quite a few different jvm > engines > > around by now; some of them designed to be lightweight, fast-startup, > > memory-efficient affairs, and some designed to be highly-tunable and as > fast > > as possible for longer-running processes. If you want to make the jvm > look > > bad, it's easy to select an engine that's tuned against your benchmark > > needs. > > > > ?I last wrote Java code at 1.5 (before they dropped the '1.' prefix). At > the > > time I was only aware of the JVM from Sun and the new Open Source one > that > > was being developed. I really haven't followed Java that closely since. > > These lightweight JVMs sound interesting. I gather that's why my Android > > phone is usable. Any pointers to other JVMs? > > > > K ? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Wed Jun 3 20:33:08 2015 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 13:33:08 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Oh, and I told a lie. openjdk-8 packages are in Ubuntu 15.04 (Vivid) now, too, so they may now be available as backports for the older LTS releases. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > To: "Toby Corkindale" > Cc: "melbourne-pm" > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 1:28:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > Thanks muchly for the pointers! Fedora 21 comes with OpenJDK 8 so I'm in > luck if I want to play with Zero. > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > Suite 1416 > 401 Docklands Drive > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > On 4 June 2015 at 12:44, Toby Corkindale < > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au> wrote: > > > Apologies for broken quoting below; the work email system seems to suck in > > that regard. > > > > There is a list of a hundred JVMs on wikipedia[1] but for ones actually > > worth looking at, I'd say they are: > > The original - Oracle/OpenJDK 8. Oracle's version is based off OpenJDK > > these days, so is pretty similar on x64 architectures, but they seem to > > have a much better ARM implementation. > > I haven't seen openjdk8 packages for major distros yet, but Oracle's has > > been around for a while so that's what I've been using. > > You get both the regular hotspot, and also the "Zero" backend as part of > > openjdk. Zero being portable and a bit lighter. > > > > Avian -- lightweight, efficient, generates small code. > > > > Azul Zing -- designed for really heavyweight, memory-churning, > > latency-sensitive programs. > > > > JamVM -- Another small and lean JVM. I think OpenJDK's Zero backend ended > > up being a bit better, but before Avian and Zero came along, this was the > > "light" jvm of choice. > > > > You've heard of Dalvik, which is behind the Android OS, which is the JVM > > in everything but name. (I've written apps in Scala and then had them run > > on Android) > > I don't think anyone really uses it on its own though. > > > > 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > > > To: "melbourne-pm" > > > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 12:13:21 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > > > > > > > > On 4 June 2015 at 11:44, Toby Corkindale < > > > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I say "appropriate* JVM" because there are quite a few different jvm > > engines > > > around by now; some of them designed to be lightweight, fast-startup, > > > memory-efficient affairs, and some designed to be highly-tunable and as > > fast > > > as possible for longer-running processes. If you want to make the jvm > > look > > > bad, it's easy to select an engine that's tuned against your benchmark > > > needs. > > > > > > ?I last wrote Java code at 1.5 (before they dropped the '1.' prefix). At > > the > > > time I was only aware of the JVM from Sun and the new Open Source one > > that > > > was being developed. I really haven't followed Java that closely since. > > > These lightweight JVMs sound interesting. I gather that's why my Android > > > phone is usable. Any pointers to other JVMs? > > > > > > K ? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Wed Jun 3 22:27:13 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:27:13 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> Message-ID: Okay, Toby. You've now got me looking at Clojure as an option. I'd definitely enjoy cutting code in that more than I would Python. Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal Suite 1416 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 On 4 June 2015 at 13:33, Toby Corkindale < toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au> wrote: > Oh, and I told a lie. openjdk-8 packages are in Ubuntu 15.04 (Vivid) now, > too, so they may now be available as backports for the older LTS releases. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > > To: "Toby Corkindale" > > Cc: "melbourne-pm" > > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 1:28:19 PM > > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > > > Thanks muchly for the pointers! Fedora 21 comes with OpenJDK 8 so I'm in > > luck if I want to play with Zero. > > > > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > > > Suite 1416 > > 401 Docklands Drive > > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > > > On 4 June 2015 at 12:44, Toby Corkindale < > > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au> wrote: > > > > > Apologies for broken quoting below; the work email system seems to > suck in > > > that regard. > > > > > > There is a list of a hundred JVMs on wikipedia[1] but for ones actually > > > worth looking at, I'd say they are: > > > The original - Oracle/OpenJDK 8. Oracle's version is based off OpenJDK > > > these days, so is pretty similar on x64 architectures, but they seem to > > > have a much better ARM implementation. > > > I haven't seen openjdk8 packages for major distros yet, but Oracle's > has > > > been around for a while so that's what I've been using. > > > You get both the regular hotspot, and also the "Zero" backend as part > of > > > openjdk. Zero being portable and a bit lighter. > > > > > > Avian -- lightweight, efficient, generates small code. > > > > > > Azul Zing -- designed for really heavyweight, memory-churning, > > > latency-sensitive programs. > > > > > > JamVM -- Another small and lean JVM. I think OpenJDK's Zero backend > ended > > > up being a bit better, but before Avian and Zero came along, this was > the > > > "light" jvm of choice. > > > > > > You've heard of Dalvik, which is behind the Android OS, which is the > JVM > > > in everything but name. (I've written apps in Scala and then had them > run > > > on Android) > > > I don't think anyone really uses it on its own though. > > > > > > 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > > > > To: "melbourne-pm" > > > > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 12:13:21 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4 June 2015 at 11:44, Toby Corkindale < > > > > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I say "appropriate* JVM" because there are quite a few different jvm > > > engines > > > > around by now; some of them designed to be lightweight, fast-startup, > > > > memory-efficient affairs, and some designed to be highly-tunable and > as > > > fast > > > > as possible for longer-running processes. If you want to make the jvm > > > look > > > > bad, it's easy to select an engine that's tuned against your > benchmark > > > > needs. > > > > > > > > ?I last wrote Java code at 1.5 (before they dropped the '1.' > prefix). At > > > the > > > > time I was only aware of the JVM from Sun and the new Open Source one > > > that > > > > was being developed. I really haven't followed Java that closely > since. > > > > These lightweight JVMs sound interesting. I gather that's why my > Android > > > > phone is usable. Any pointers to other JVMs? > > > > > > > > K ? > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adrian at awm.id.au Wed Jun 3 23:16:15 2015 From: adrian at awm.id.au (Adrian Masters) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 06:16:15 +0000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au>, Message-ID: <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> There's a Melbourne Clojure meet up group. I can send a link if needed Adrian On 4 Jun 2015, at 15:27, Kahlil Hodgson > wrote: Okay, Toby. You've now got me looking at Clojure as an option. I'd definitely enjoy cutting code in that more than I would Python. Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal Suite 1416 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 On 4 June 2015 at 13:33, Toby Corkindale > wrote: Oh, and I told a lie. openjdk-8 packages are in Ubuntu 15.04 (Vivid) now, too, so they may now be available as backports for the older LTS releases. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > > To: "Toby Corkindale" > > Cc: "melbourne-pm" > > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 1:28:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > Thanks muchly for the pointers! Fedora 21 comes with OpenJDK 8 so I'm in > luck if I want to play with Zero. > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > Suite 1416 > 401 Docklands Drive > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > On 4 June 2015 at 12:44, Toby Corkindale < > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au> wrote: > > > Apologies for broken quoting below; the work email system seems to suck in > > that regard. > > > > There is a list of a hundred JVMs on wikipedia[1] but for ones actually > > worth looking at, I'd say they are: > > The original - Oracle/OpenJDK 8. Oracle's version is based off OpenJDK > > these days, so is pretty similar on x64 architectures, but they seem to > > have a much better ARM implementation. > > I haven't seen openjdk8 packages for major distros yet, but Oracle's has > > been around for a while so that's what I've been using. > > You get both the regular hotspot, and also the "Zero" backend as part of > > openjdk. Zero being portable and a bit lighter. > > > > Avian -- lightweight, efficient, generates small code. > > > > Azul Zing -- designed for really heavyweight, memory-churning, > > latency-sensitive programs. > > > > JamVM -- Another small and lean JVM. I think OpenJDK's Zero backend ended > > up being a bit better, but before Avian and Zero came along, this was the > > "light" jvm of choice. > > > > You've heard of Dalvik, which is behind the Android OS, which is the JVM > > in everything but name. (I've written apps in Scala and then had them run > > on Android) > > I don't think anyone really uses it on its own though. > > > > 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > > > > To: "melbourne-pm" > > > > Sent: Thursday, 4 June, 2015 12:13:21 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon > > > > > > > > > On 4 June 2015 at 11:44, Toby Corkindale < > > > toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I say "appropriate* JVM" because there are quite a few different jvm > > engines > > > around by now; some of them designed to be lightweight, fast-startup, > > > memory-efficient affairs, and some designed to be highly-tunable and as > > fast > > > as possible for longer-running processes. If you want to make the jvm > > look > > > bad, it's easy to select an engine that's tuned against your benchmark > > > needs. > > > > > > ?I last wrote Java code at 1.5 (before they dropped the '1.' prefix). At > > the > > > time I was only aware of the JVM from Sun and the new Open Source one > > that > > > was being developed. I really haven't followed Java that closely since. > > > These lightweight JVMs sound interesting. I gather that's why my Android > > > phone is usable. Any pointers to other JVMs? > > > > > > K ? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > _______________________________________________ Melbourne-pm mailing list Melbourne-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at nipl.net Thu Jun 4 00:30:01 2015 From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 17:30:01 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> Message-ID: <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> > Okay, Toby. You've now got me looking at Clojure as an option. > > I'd definitely enjoy cutting code in that more than I would Python. If only someone would invent a good LISP/Scheme dialect that is as readable as Python. LISP and especially Scheme are good simple languages but I find Python much more readable (and it's a very popular language, largely because it's so readable). On the other hand, LISP code can be more compact, so there's less to read. Of course, when compared to perl... Reading difficulty: | | | | | | | | | | | | py lisp perl For more readable LISP, I figure we need implicit parens around lines, and encompassing any indented block argument: define largest-two-square-sum x y z if (= x (larger x y)) sum-of-squares x (larger y z) sum-of-squares y (larger x z) define larger x y if (> x y) x y define sum-of-squares x y + (square x) (square y)) define square x * x x Is more readable to me than: (define (largest-two-square-sum x y z) (if (= x (larger x y)) (sum-of-squares x (larger y z)) (sum-of-squares y (larger x z)) ) ) (define (larger x y) (if (> x y) x y) ) (define (sum-of-squares x y) (+ (square x) (square y)) ) (define (square x) (* x x) ) I have a feeling it's not so simple, though. From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Thu Jun 4 17:23:03 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 10:23:03 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: On 4 June 2015 at 17:30, Sam Watkins wrote: > For more readable LISP, I figure we need implicit parens around lines, > and encompassing any indented block argument: > > define > largest-two-square-sum x y z > if (= x (larger x y)) > sum-of-squares x (larger y z) > sum-of-squares y (larger x z) > > Is more readable to me than: > > (define > (largest-two-square-sum x y z) > (if (= x (larger x y)) > (sum-of-squares x (larger y z)) > (sum-of-squares y (larger x z)) > ) > ) > ?They look about the same to me, Sam. Perhaps throw a few list comprehensions in there for fairness ;-) You should really be laying out your list like so: ?(define (largest-two-square-sum x y z) (if (= x (larger x y)) (sum-of-squares x (larger y z)) (sum-of-squares y (larger x z)) )) (define (larger x y) (if (> x y) x y)) (define (sum-of-squares x y) (+ (square x) (square y))) (define (square x) (* x x) ) Jokes aside, the above looks like a bunch of equations from high school algebra. You can model the execution of the code with a process of recursively evaluating the inner most scopes and substituting the results. You get a sense that the code executes by continually collapsing in on itself, becoming progressively more simple. Its kinda Zen. That model works really well with the Virtual Machine that I'm continually running in my head while I cut code. I find it quite meditative and satisfying. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au Thu Jun 4 18:01:27 2015 From: toby.corkindale at strategicdata.com.au (Toby Corkindale) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 11:01:27 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: <2014600975.507569.1433466087163.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kahlil Hodgson" > You can model the execution of the code with a process of > recursively evaluating the inner most scopes and substituting the results. > You get a sense that the code executes by continually collapsing in on > itself, becoming progressively more simple. Its kinda Zen. That model works > really well with the Virtual Machine that I'm continually running in my head > while I cut code. I find it quite meditative and satisfying. I really like that aspect of FP as well. I find that if you're "doing it right" then you tend to end up with a lot of very small functions, and they are individually easy to verify as correct. Whereas your typical OO Perl app has a lot of complexity-per-subroutine, often with object methods being called on things out-of-sight, so it's trickier to tell, just by looking, that it's correct. From pml540114 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 03:58:12 2015 From: pml540114 at gmail.com (Peter Lawrence) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 20:58:12 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Main comment at end... On 05/06/2015, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > On 4 June 2015 at 17:30, Sam Watkins wrote: > >> For more readable LISP, I figure we need implicit parens around lines, >> and encompassing any indented block argument: >> >> define >> largest-two-square-sum x y z >> if (= x (larger x y)) >> sum-of-squares x (larger y z) >> sum-of-squares y (larger x z) >> >> Is more readable to me than: >> >> (define >> (largest-two-square-sum x y z) >> (if (= x (larger x y)) >> (sum-of-squares x (larger y z)) >> (sum-of-squares y (larger x z)) >> ) >> ) >> > > ?They look about the same to me, Sam. Perhaps throw a few list > comprehensions in there for fairness ;-) > > You should really be laying out your list like so: > > ?(define (largest-two-square-sum x y z) (if (= x (larger x y)) > (sum-of-squares x (larger y z)) (sum-of-squares y (larger x z)) )) > (define (larger x y) (if (> x y) x y)) > (define (sum-of-squares x y) (+ (square x) (square y))) > (define (square x) (* x x) ) > > Jokes aside, the above looks like a bunch of equations from high school > algebra. You can model the execution of the code with a process of > recursively evaluating the inner most scopes and substituting the results. > You get a sense that the code executes by continually collapsing in on > itself, becoming progressively more simple. Its kinda Zen. That model works > really well with the Virtual Machine that I'm continually running in my > head while I cut code. I find it quite meditative and satisfying. > For what it's worth, a number of languages in that area - functional languages, generally speaking - have adopted a postfix notation approach that results in far fewer brackets (but they end up a lot like Forth, which some people don't like). Currently, the most practical is probably Factor, with Joy (developed here in Melbourne!) one of the earliest ones. I even mocked up a toy one of my own, Furphy, to investigate concepts; that only has curly brackets for data structuring, round brackets as syntactic sugar for comments, quotation marks as syntactic sugar for text, and square brackets as syntactic sugar for code encapsulation (the syntactic sugar ones aren't actually necessary, just convenient). The imperative language Euphoria drew on functional language concepts for its data structuring, and might also be worth a look. All these are googleable. However, every single one of these faces those same political problems of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations either. Perhaps the way to go is to research the language features you want and then implement them in what you're allowed, with as much help at the source level as you can get from macros and preprocessors etc.Many years ago, I did just that with a project that was commanded to be in IBM 360 assembler and Cobol even though it really needed a decent high level language (and could never have been the labour saving utility the PHBs wanted anyway, as it took more work to install); the best way out I could find was to hide a Forth implementation inside those. PML. From dean at fragfest.com.au Mon Jun 8 08:25:42 2015 From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 01:25:42 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: This graph made me laugh. Thanks for that. Dean > > Reading difficulty: > > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | | > | | | > > py lisp perl > From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Mon Jun 8 16:44:00 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 09:44:00 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence wrote: > However, every single one of these faces those same political problems > of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations > either. > ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I never had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting languages to choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play with clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could justify exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps ironic that I may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding that's forcing us to use Python. The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, but by whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do with technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on inferior technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do dismiss my arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to by the Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaye29 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 00:41:14 2015 From: jkaye29 at gmail.com (John Kaye) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 17:41:14 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Hi all, Has a decision been made about a Perl Mongers meeting for tomorrow (Wednesday) night? If it is going ahead, will it be at the Mitre Tavern or will FastMail be hosting the evening? I am able to come this month and will attend if we have a meeting. Cheers, John Kaye. On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson < kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: > > On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence wrote: > >> However, every single one of these faces those same political problems >> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations >> either. >> > > ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I never > had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting languages to > choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play with > clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could justify > exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps ironic that I > may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding that's forcing > us to use Python. > > The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical > decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, but by > whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the > technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make > decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do with > technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on inferior > technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do dismiss my > arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to by the > Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". > > > > > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Tue Jun 9 02:30:32 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 19:30:32 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: I'm keen if anyone else is. Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal Suite 1416 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 On 9 June 2015 at 17:41, John Kaye wrote: > Hi all, > > Has a decision been made about a Perl Mongers meeting for tomorrow > (Wednesday) night? > > If it is going ahead, will it be at the Mitre Tavern or will FastMail be > hosting the evening? > > I am able to come this month and will attend if we have a meeting. > > Cheers, > John Kaye. > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson < > kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: > >> >> On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence wrote: >> >>> However, every single one of these faces those same political problems >>> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations >>> either. >>> >> >> ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I never >> had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting languages to >> choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play with >> clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could justify >> exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps ironic that I >> may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding that's forcing >> us to use Python. >> >> The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical >> decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, but by >> whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the >> technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make >> decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do with >> technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on inferior >> technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do dismiss my >> arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to by the >> Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". >> >> >> >> >> ? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pml540114 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 03:20:28 2015 From: pml540114 at gmail.com (Peter Lawrence) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 20:20:28 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <97e07f6a5026c60e7b47efa2eb08d11e@fragfest.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: On 09/06/2015, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence wrote: > >> However, every single one of these faces those same political problems >> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations >> either. >> > > ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I never > had a chance to look into it. . . . Well, if you ever want a taster, Forth has been implemented in Perl (a quick googling found http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=766784), and there is/was also a site out there doing it through web pages - all just for showing it off and/or for fun, not for real, though I considered using a Perl version for Furphy so as to snarf its garbage collection. Forth is usually found in niches like embedded systems these days as its particular strengths don't matter so much on most modern platforms: small footprint with little sacrifice of performance, ease of implementation on completely new machines or others that lack existing tools to create/port new code, etc. - and it does have a different enough look and feel to be awkward for some programmers, along with some performance cost in its simpler, less optimised implementations (even more so in the Perl and web versions I mentioned, as those are interpreted interpreters), though even those can have their applications' bottlenecks hand tuned by recoding them fairly seamlessly in assembler. PML. From tim.w.connors at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:29:32 2015 From: tim.w.connors at gmail.com (Tim Connors) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 11:29:32 +1000 (AEST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Yep. Where we go? On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > I'm keen if anyone else is. > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > Suite 1416 > 401 Docklands Drive > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > On 9 June 2015 at 17:41, John Kaye wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Has a decision been made about a Perl Mongers meeting for tomorrow > > (Wednesday) night? > > > > If it is going ahead, will it be at the Mitre Tavern or will FastMail be > > hosting the evening? > > > > I am able to come this month and will attend if we have a meeting. > > > > Cheers, > > John Kaye. > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson < > > kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: > > > >> > >> On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence wrote: > >> > >>> However, every single one of these faces those same political problems > >>> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations > >>> either. > >>> > >> > >> ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I never > >> had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting languages to > >> choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play with > >> clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could justify > >> exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps ironic that I > >> may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding that's forcing > >> us to use Python. > >> > >> The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical > >> decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, but by > >> whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the > >> technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make > >> decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do with > >> technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on inferior > >> technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do dismiss my > >> arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to by the > >> Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ? > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Melbourne-pm mailing list > >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > -- Tim Connors From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Tue Jun 9 20:51:40 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 13:51:40 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Might be a bit cold outside at the Mitre and space inside is limited on Wednesdays. Another option might be the Savoy Tavern on the corner of Spencer and Bourke Streets. Thoughts? Opinions? Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal Suite 1416 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 On 10 June 2015 at 11:29, Tim Connors wrote: > > Yep. Where we go? > > On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: > > > I'm keen if anyone else is. > > > > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > > > Suite 1416 > > 401 Docklands Drive > > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > > > On 9 June 2015 at 17:41, John Kaye wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Has a decision been made about a Perl Mongers meeting for tomorrow > > > (Wednesday) night? > > > > > > If it is going ahead, will it be at the Mitre Tavern or will FastMail > be > > > hosting the evening? > > > > > > I am able to come this month and will attend if we have a meeting. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > John Kaye. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson < > > > kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence wrote: > > >> > > >>> However, every single one of these faces those same political > problems > > >>> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations > > >>> either. > > >>> > > >> > > >> ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I > never > > >> had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting > languages to > > >> choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play with > > >> clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could > justify > > >> exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps ironic > that I > > >> may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding that's > forcing > > >> us to use Python. > > >> > > >> The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical > > >> decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, but > by > > >> whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the > > >> technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make > > >> decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do with > > >> technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on inferior > > >> technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do > dismiss my > > >> arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to by > the > > >> Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Melbourne-pm mailing list > > >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Melbourne-pm mailing list > > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > > > > > > > -- > Tim Connors > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkaye29 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 23:31:17 2015 From: jkaye29 at gmail.com (John Kaye) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:31:17 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Thanks Kal and Tim for trying to get PM going tonight. But I won't be coming in to Perl Mongers, sorry. I am at home in Glen Waverley and I don't feel like coming in on a cold night for a small turnout. Maybe next month. Cheers, John John Kaye On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Kahlil Hodgson < kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: > Might be a bit cold outside at the Mitre and space inside is limited on > Wednesdays. Another option might be the Savoy Tavern on the corner of > Spencer and Bourke Streets. Thoughts? Opinions? > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > Suite 1416 > 401 Docklands Drive > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > On 10 June 2015 at 11:29, Tim Connors wrote: > >> >> Yep. Where we go? >> >> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: >> >> > I'm keen if anyone else is. >> > >> > >> > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 >> > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 >> > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal >> > >> > Suite 1416 >> > 401 Docklands Drive >> > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia >> > >> > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that >> > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, >> > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all >> > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 >> > >> > On 9 June 2015 at 17:41, John Kaye wrote: >> > >> > > Hi all, >> > > >> > > Has a decision been made about a Perl Mongers meeting for tomorrow >> > > (Wednesday) night? >> > > >> > > If it is going ahead, will it be at the Mitre Tavern or will FastMail >> be >> > > hosting the evening? >> > > >> > > I am able to come this month and will attend if we have a meeting. >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > John Kaye. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson < >> > > kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: >> > > >> > >> >> > >> On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> However, every single one of these faces those same political >> problems >> > >>> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations >> > >>> either. >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I >> never >> > >> had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting >> languages to >> > >> choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play with >> > >> clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could >> justify >> > >> exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps ironic >> that I >> > >> may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding that's >> forcing >> > >> us to use Python. >> > >> >> > >> The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical >> > >> decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, >> but by >> > >> whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the >> > >> technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make >> > >> decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do with >> > >> technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on inferior >> > >> technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do >> dismiss my >> > >> arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to by >> the >> > >> Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> ? >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >> > >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >> > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Melbourne-pm mailing list >> > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org >> > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >> > > >> > >> >> -- >> Tim Connors >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Wed Jun 10 00:16:18 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 17:16:18 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Hmm doesn't look like there is much interest. I suppose I'll skip it too. Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal Suite 1416 401 Docklands Drive Docklands VIC 3008 Australia "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 On 10 June 2015 at 16:31, John Kaye wrote: > Thanks Kal and Tim for trying to get PM going tonight. > But I won't be coming in to Perl Mongers, sorry. > > I am at home in Glen Waverley and I don't feel like coming in on a cold > night for a small turnout. > > Maybe next month. > > Cheers, > John > > > John Kaye > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Kahlil Hodgson < > kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: > >> Might be a bit cold outside at the Mitre and space inside is limited on >> Wednesdays. Another option might be the Savoy Tavern on the corner of >> Spencer and Bourke Streets. Thoughts? Opinions? >> >> >> Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 >> Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 >> DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal >> >> Suite 1416 >> 401 Docklands Drive >> Docklands VIC 3008 Australia >> >> "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that >> the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, >> if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all >> means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 >> >> On 10 June 2015 at 11:29, Tim Connors wrote: >> >>> >>> Yep. Where we go? >>> >>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: >>> >>> > I'm keen if anyone else is. >>> > >>> > >>> > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 >>> > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 >>> > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal >>> > >>> > Suite 1416 >>> > 401 Docklands Drive >>> > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia >>> > >>> > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that >>> > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, >>> > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all >>> > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 >>> > >>> > On 9 June 2015 at 17:41, John Kaye wrote: >>> > >>> > > Hi all, >>> > > >>> > > Has a decision been made about a Perl Mongers meeting for tomorrow >>> > > (Wednesday) night? >>> > > >>> > > If it is going ahead, will it be at the Mitre Tavern or will >>> FastMail be >>> > > hosting the evening? >>> > > >>> > > I am able to come this month and will attend if we have a meeting. >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > John Kaye. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson < >>> > > kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> >>> > >> On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence >>> wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >>> However, every single one of these faces those same political >>> problems >>> > >>> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations >>> > >>> either. >>> > >>> >>> > >> >>> > >> ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but I >>> never >>> > >> had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting >>> languages to >>> > >> choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play >>> with >>> > >> clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could >>> justify >>> > >> exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps >>> ironic that I >>> > >> may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding that's >>> forcing >>> > >> us to use Python. >>> > >> >>> > >> The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical >>> > >> decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, >>> but by >>> > >> whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the >>> > >> technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make >>> > >> decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do >>> with >>> > >> technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on >>> inferior >>> > >> technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do >>> dismiss my >>> > >> arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to by >>> the >>> > >> Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> ? >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >>> > >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >>> > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Melbourne-pm mailing list >>> > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org >>> > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> Tim Connors >>> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au Wed Jun 10 00:30:24 2015 From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 17:30:24 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Dancing around the event horizon In-Reply-To: References: <244415451.484735.1433310589385.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <1587940424.498099.1433382293037.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <793891728.499134.1433385888872.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <2021742564.499777.1433388788092.JavaMail.zimbra@strategicdata.com.au> <6759F039-3C5E-4996-A383-AA4191702057@awm.id.au> <20150604073001.GA26577@opal.nipl.net> Message-ID: Ah now at least 2 people will be at the Savoy tonight Sent from my magical talking hand box On 10/06/2015 5:16 pm, "Kahlil Hodgson" wrote: > Hmm doesn't look like there is much interest. I suppose I'll skip it too. > > > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal > > Suite 1416 > 401 Docklands Drive > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia > > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 > > On 10 June 2015 at 16:31, John Kaye wrote: > >> Thanks Kal and Tim for trying to get PM going tonight. >> But I won't be coming in to Perl Mongers, sorry. >> >> I am at home in Glen Waverley and I don't feel like coming in on a cold >> night for a small turnout. >> >> Maybe next month. >> >> Cheers, >> John >> >> >> John Kaye >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Kahlil Hodgson < >> kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: >> >>> Might be a bit cold outside at the Mitre and space inside is limited on >>> Wednesdays. Another option might be the Savoy Tavern on the corner of >>> Spencer and Bourke Streets. Thoughts? Opinions? >>> >>> >>> Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 >>> Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 >>> DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal >>> >>> Suite 1416 >>> 401 Docklands Drive >>> Docklands VIC 3008 Australia >>> >>> "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that >>> the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, >>> if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all >>> means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 >>> >>> On 10 June 2015 at 11:29, Tim Connors wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Yep. Where we go? >>>> >>>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Kahlil Hodgson wrote: >>>> >>>> > I'm keen if anyone else is. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson GPG: C9A02289 >>>> > Head of Technology (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382 >>>> > DealMax Pty Ltd GitHub: @tartansandal >>>> > >>>> > Suite 1416 >>>> > 401 Docklands Drive >>>> > Docklands VIC 3008 Australia >>>> > >>>> > "All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that >>>> > the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, >>>> > if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all >>>> > means, do not use a hammer." -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 >>>> > >>>> > On 9 June 2015 at 17:41, John Kaye wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Hi all, >>>> > > >>>> > > Has a decision been made about a Perl Mongers meeting for tomorrow >>>> > > (Wednesday) night? >>>> > > >>>> > > If it is going ahead, will it be at the Mitre Tavern or will >>>> FastMail be >>>> > > hosting the evening? >>>> > > >>>> > > I am able to come this month and will attend if we have a meeting. >>>> > > >>>> > > Cheers, >>>> > > John Kaye. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kahlil Hodgson < >>>> > > kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On 5 June 2015 at 20:58, Peter Lawrence >>>> wrote: >>>> > >> >>>> > >>> However, every single one of these faces those same political >>>> problems >>>> > >>> of acceptance, and many don't have fully optimised implementations >>>> > >>> either. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> ?I remember a colleague raving about Forth about 8 years ago, but >>>> I never >>>> > >> had a chance to look into it. There are so many interesting >>>> languages to >>>> > >> choose from these days. I managed to find an hour or two to play >>>> with >>>> > >> clojure on the weekend and had a great time. I just wish I could >>>> justify >>>> > >> exploring all these options during my working hours. Perhaps >>>> ironic that I >>>> > >> may have the freedom to do just that once we get the funding >>>> that's forcing >>>> > >> us to use Python. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> The major realization for me is that my ability to make technical >>>> > >> decisions is governed, not by my ability to make sound arguments, >>>> but by >>>> > >> whatever social and political power I can muster. If I head up the >>>> > >> technology for a successful company, I gain a lot of power to make >>>> > >> decisions. Even if the success of the company has nothing to do >>>> with >>>> > >> technology. Even if the company succeeded despite relying on >>>> inferior >>>> > >> technology. Once I'm there, business people are less likely do >>>> dismiss my >>>> > >> arguments just be cause they conflict with sentiments alluded to >>>> by the >>>> > >> Financial Review or touted by their favourite "tame geek". >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> ? >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >>>> > >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >>>> > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >>>> > >> >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>> > > Melbourne-pm mailing list >>>> > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org >>>> > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Tim Connors >>>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dean at fragfest.com.au Thu Jun 11 18:12:19 2015 From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 11:12:19 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] YAPC::NA 2015 Message-ID: <1cd6b6344efc6a312f7f29c6656d4c6d@fragfest.com.au> The theme of this years YAPC::NA was definitely "We're hiring" - which is great news for people looking for perl work. Grant Street Group - Are hiring and happy to do remote hires Zip Recruiter - Are hiring and happy to do remote hires Booking.com - Are hiring and will help you relocate to Amsterdam Bluehost - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though Craiglist - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though Liquidweb - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though And others listed at... http://www.yapcna.org/yn2015/wiki?node=WeAreHiring Dean From dean at fragfest.com.au Mon Jun 15 00:24:33 2015 From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:24:33 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] [Sydney-pm] YAPC::NA 2015 In-Reply-To: References: <1cd6b6344efc6a312f7f29c6656d4c6d@fragfest.com.au> Message-ID: <1fc8d0f4d431a5cba10b6912d3c23f34@fragfest.com.au> Most recruiters arent aware that Australians can use our own E-3 Visa rather than having to fight for H1B's. Look them up on wikipedia. The tl;dr is: * 2 year duration (vs 1 year in H1B) * unlimited renewals (vs 3x in H1B) * spouse automatically gets E-3 visa too (vs non-working visa in H1B) * 10,000 available, only 3,000 issued last year (vs massive line for H1B) Dean On 2015-06-15 11:38, Drew Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > Since my 457 was expiring soon, I moved back to the US to work for ZipRecruiter and am very happy with the decision. There's a lot of great people here and have a wide variety of projects and groups. We have a lot of remotes (IIRC 25 or so), but the extreme timezone differences might make working remotely in AU interesting. If you're good enough, I imagine the company would work with you on visas where necessary. If you have any questions, please ask. I'm happy to put anyone in touch with our internal recruiter as well. > > Thanks, > Drew > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Dean Hamstead wrote: > >> The theme of this years YAPC::NA was definitely "We're hiring" - which is great news for people looking for perl work. >> >> Grant Street Group - Are hiring and happy to do remote hires >> >> Zip Recruiter - Are hiring and happy to do remote hires >> >> Booking.com - Are hiring and will help you relocate to Amsterdam >> >> Bluehost - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though >> >> Craiglist - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though >> >> Liquidweb - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though >> >> And others listed at... http://www.yapcna.org/yn2015/wiki?node=WeAreHiring [1] >> >> Dean >> _______________________________________________ >> Sydney-pm mailing list >> Sydney-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sydney-pm [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.yapcna.org/yn2015/wiki?node=WeAreHiring [2] http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sydney-pm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tim.w.connors at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 01:00:01 2015 From: tim.w.connors at gmail.com (Tim Connors) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 18:00:01 +1000 (AEST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] [Sydney-pm] YAPC::NA 2015 In-Reply-To: <1fc8d0f4d431a5cba10b6912d3c23f34@fragfest.com.au> References: <1cd6b6344efc6a312f7f29c6656d4c6d@fragfest.com.au> <1fc8d0f4d431a5cba10b6912d3c23f34@fragfest.com.au> Message-ID: Anyone know about anything similar with UK/Eu? My grandparents were born in the wrong country (Australia). On Mon, 15 Jun 2015, Dean Hamstead wrote: > > > Most recruiters arent aware that Australians can use our own E-3 Visa > rather than having to fight for H1B's. > > Look them up on wikipedia. The tl;dr is: > > * 2 year duration (vs 1 year in H1B) > * unlimited renewals (vs 3x in H1B) > * spouse automatically gets E-3 visa too (vs non-working visa in H1B) > * 10,000 available, only 3,000 issued last year (vs massive line for > H1B) > > Dean > > On 2015-06-15 11:38, Drew Taylor wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Since my 457 was expiring soon, I moved back to the US to work for ZipRecruiter and am very happy with the decision. There's a lot of great people here and have a wide variety of projects and groups. We have a lot of remotes (IIRC 25 or so), but the extreme timezone differences might make working remotely in AU interesting. If you're good enough, I imagine the company would work with you on visas where necessary. If you have any questions, please ask. I'm happy to put anyone in touch with our internal recruiter as well. > > > > Thanks, > > Drew > > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Dean Hamstead wrote: > > > >> The theme of this years YAPC::NA was definitely "We're hiring" - which is great news for people looking for perl work. > >> > >> Grant Street Group - Are hiring and happy to do remote hires > >> > >> Zip Recruiter - Are hiring and happy to do remote hires > >> > >> Booking.com - Are hiring and will help you relocate to Amsterdam > >> > >> Bluehost - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though > >> > >> Craiglist - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though > >> > >> Liquidweb - Are hiring. You would need to relocate though > >> > >> And others listed at... http://www.yapcna.org/yn2015/wiki?node=WeAreHiring [1] > >> > >> Dean > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sydney-pm mailing list > >> Sydney-pm at pm.org > >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sydney-pm [2] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.yapcna.org/yn2015/wiki?node=WeAreHiring > [2] http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/sydney-pm > -- Tim Connors