From melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx  Tue Jan  6 04:53:55 2015
From: melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 23:53:55 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
Message-ID: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>

After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015?

How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a
decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...

Thanks,
Stephen
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From dean at fragfest.com.au  Tue Jan  6 13:53:27 2015
From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 08:53:27 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>

 

>From my experience in Sydney PM and taken from experiences with SF pm
and SL pm - just start having meetings consistently and attendance will
swell. 

Even if the first meeting is 3-4 people, press forward and promote each
event via blogs.perl.org, reddit, facebook etc. 

Dean 

On 2015-01-06 23:53, Stephen Edmonds wrote: 

> After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015? 
> 
> How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past... 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Stephen 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [1]
 

Links:
------
[1] http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
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From myfwhite at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 14:25:03 2015
From: myfwhite at gmail.com (Myf White)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 09:25:03 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7036VyUKF2py1ACPw1k+s6pptS1FJMt-2NrVYCVB-zrVXXzw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Stephen!

This is a great idea. I'll be there.

Myf
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From gregg at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jan  6 15:05:17 2015
From: gregg at bigpond.net.au (Greg George)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 10:05:17 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
Message-ID: <3ht2nu3r7p6fbj947steum3t.1420585517618@email.android.com>

Hi Stephen,
Great idea, ?unfortunately I will be in Canberra ??, ?hope you enjoy.?


Regards
Greg George
0404 892 159


-------- Original message --------
From: Stephen Edmonds <melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx> 
Date: 06/01/2015 11:53 PM (GMT+10:00) 
To: melbourne-pm <melbourne-pm at pm.org> 
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015... 

After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015? 

How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...

Thanks,
Stephen
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From kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au  Tue Jan  6 15:15:37 2015
From: kahlil.hodgson at dealmax.com.au (Kahlil Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 10:15:37 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPRztUu3O=fNOgmyJgHTEO75RS3-a_rhc_mRgXEXEx+4VL_DSg@mail.gmail.com>

Great Idea Stephen. Hope to make it ;-)

K


Kahlil (Kal) Hodgson                       GPG: C9A02289
Head of Technology                         (m) +61 (0) 4 2573 0382
DealMax Pty Ltd

Suite 1416
401 Docklands Drive
Docklands VIC 3008 Australia

"All parts should go together without forcing.  You must remember that
the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you.  Therefore,
if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason.  By all
means, do not use a hammer."  -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 11:53 PM, Stephen Edmonds <melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx>
wrote:

> After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015?
>
> How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a
> decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
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From melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx  Tue Jan  6 15:59:26 2015
From: melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 10:59:26 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>

There was a blog post I read last year (and now cannot find again) that
talked about changes that a perl mongers group (I think San Francisco...)
made that resulted in their meetings growing.

One big change was that they dropped the fixed day of the month for the
meetings. If there was a speaker that was not available on Wednesdays but
was available on Thursdays, then there would be a meeting on a Thursday.
They also saw a number of new people as it turned out there were a number
of people on the mailing list that also couldn't make a Wednesday but could
make a Thursday. Of course there were some that then couldn't make the
Thursday, but over time that would even out with meetings on Tuesdays,
Fridays, Mondays, etc...

Another change they made was to not require the talks to be on perl, just
that the talks should be something interesting to people that used perl.
This concept is not new to us, I remember a talk on git a few years ago and
more recently there was a night where the focus was on embedded systems
such as arduino, raspberry pi, beaglebone, etc.

These are things to consider...

Thanks,
Stephen


On 7 January 2015 at 08:53, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:

>  From my experience in Sydney PM and taken from experiences with SF pm
> and SL pm - just start having meetings consistently and attendance will
> swell.
>
> Even if the first meeting is 3-4 people, press forward and promote each
> event via blogs.perl.org, reddit, facebook etc.
>
>
>
> Dean
>
>
>
>
> On 2015-01-06 23:53, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
>
> After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015?
>
> How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a
> decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing listMelbourne-pm at pm.orghttp://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
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From tim.w.connors at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 16:22:23 2015
From: tim.w.connors at gmail.com (Tim Connors)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 11:22:23 +1100 (AEDT)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>


Ooh, I wonder if I should put something together about my air
conditioner/heater controller.  Teaching myself ajax, and javascript, but
on the minus side, using CGI::Fast (on the pi, CGI ':standard' takes about
a second to load, and when it takes 5 ajax queries to display the state of
the air conditioner, fast matters; plus, I'm too old a dog to learn
mojolicious and everything all the cool kids are using.  On the
minus-minus-bad side, the AC's state machine is done in bash.

But yet, pub next Wednesday.

On Wed, 7 Jan 2015, Stephen Edmonds wrote:

> There was a blog post I read last year (and now cannot find again) that
> talked about changes that a perl mongers group (I think San Francisco...)
> made that resulted in their meetings growing.
>
> One big change was that they dropped the fixed day of the month for the
> meetings. If there was a speaker that was not available on Wednesdays but
> was available on Thursdays, then there would be a meeting on a Thursday.
> They also saw a number of new people as it turned out there were a number
> of people on the mailing list that also couldn't make a Wednesday but could
> make a Thursday. Of course there were some that then couldn't make the
> Thursday, but over time that would even out with meetings on Tuesdays,
> Fridays, Mondays, etc...
>
> Another change they made was to not require the talks to be on perl, just
> that the talks should be something interesting to people that used perl.
> This concept is not new to us, I remember a talk on git a few years ago and
> more recently there was a night where the focus was on embedded systems
> such as arduino, raspberry pi, beaglebone, etc.
>
> These are things to consider...
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
> On 7 January 2015 at 08:53, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:
>
> >  From my experience in Sydney PM and taken from experiences with SF pm
> > and SL pm - just start having meetings consistently and attendance will
> > swell.
> >
> > Even if the first meeting is 3-4 people, press forward and promote each
> > event via blogs.perl.org, reddit, facebook etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dean
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2015-01-06 23:53, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
> >
> > After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015?
> >
> > How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a
> > decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Stephen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Melbourne-pm mailing listMelbourne-pm at pm.orghttp://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Melbourne-pm mailing list
> > Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> >
>

-- 
Tim Connors

From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 16:34:28 2015
From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 11:34:28 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
Message-ID: <CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>

mod_perl is your friend.

On 7 January 2015 at 11:22, Tim Connors <tim.w.connors at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Ooh, I wonder if I should put something together about my air
> conditioner/heater controller.  Teaching myself ajax, and javascript, but
> on the minus side, using CGI::Fast (on the pi, CGI ':standard' takes about
> a second to load, and when it takes 5 ajax queries to display the state of
> the air conditioner, fast matters; plus, I'm too old a dog to learn
> mojolicious and everything all the cool kids are using.  On the
> minus-minus-bad side, the AC's state machine is done in bash.
>
> But yet, pub next Wednesday.
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2015, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
>
> > There was a blog post I read last year (and now cannot find again) that
> > talked about changes that a perl mongers group (I think San Francisco...)
> > made that resulted in their meetings growing.
> >
> > One big change was that they dropped the fixed day of the month for the
> > meetings. If there was a speaker that was not available on Wednesdays but
> > was available on Thursdays, then there would be a meeting on a Thursday.
> > They also saw a number of new people as it turned out there were a number
> > of people on the mailing list that also couldn't make a Wednesday but
> could
> > make a Thursday. Of course there were some that then couldn't make the
> > Thursday, but over time that would even out with meetings on Tuesdays,
> > Fridays, Mondays, etc...
> >
> > Another change they made was to not require the talks to be on perl, just
> > that the talks should be something interesting to people that used perl.
> > This concept is not new to us, I remember a talk on git a few years ago
> and
> > more recently there was a night where the focus was on embedded systems
> > such as arduino, raspberry pi, beaglebone, etc.
> >
> > These are things to consider...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> > On 7 January 2015 at 08:53, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > >  From my experience in Sydney PM and taken from experiences with SF pm
> > > and SL pm - just start having meetings consistently and attendance will
> > > swell.
> > >
> > > Even if the first meeting is 3-4 people, press forward and promote each
> > > event via blogs.perl.org, reddit, facebook etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dean
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2015-01-06 23:53, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
> > >
> > > After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015?
> > >
> > > How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have
> had a
> > > decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Melbourne-pm mailing listMelbourne-pm at pm.orghttp://
> mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Melbourne-pm mailing list
> > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> > >
> >
>
> --
> Tim Connors
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
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From jkaye29 at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 16:40:39 2015
From: jkaye29 at gmail.com (John Kaye)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 11:40:39 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUy_XsDUmyj7mGDgziSfkjC1srvebk3WKjK+ovxSUzaNuyeGA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Stephen,

I'll come to the meeting.

Cheers,
John

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 11:53 PM, Stephen Edmonds <melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx>
wrote:

> After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015?
>
> How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a
> decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
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From alfiej at fastmail.fm  Tue Jan  6 16:43:10 2015
From: alfiej at fastmail.fm (Alfie John)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 11:43:10 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1420591390.1592561.210474821.29C47A49@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Wed, Jan 7, 2015, at 11:34 AM, Mathew Robertson wrote:
> mod_perl is your friend.

Dancer is your best friend :)

Alfie

-- 
  Alfie John
  alfiej at fastmail.fm

From drew at drewtaylor.com  Tue Jan  6 17:06:44 2015
From: drew at drewtaylor.com (Drew Taylor)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 12:06:44 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anything Plack-based is your friend. IMHO mod_perl should be considered
legacy technology these days.

Drew

On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Mathew Robertson <
mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com> wrote:

> mod_perl is your friend.
>
> On 7 January 2015 at 11:22, Tim Connors <tim.w.connors at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ooh, I wonder if I should put something together about my air
>> conditioner/heater controller.  Teaching myself ajax, and javascript, but
>> on the minus side, using CGI::Fast (on the pi, CGI ':standard' takes about
>> a second to load, and when it takes 5 ajax queries to display the state of
>> the air conditioner, fast matters; plus, I'm too old a dog to learn
>> mojolicious and everything all the cool kids are using.  On the
>> minus-minus-bad side, the AC's state machine is done in bash.
>>
>> But yet, pub next Wednesday.
>>
>> On Wed, 7 Jan 2015, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
>>
>> > There was a blog post I read last year (and now cannot find again) that
>> > talked about changes that a perl mongers group (I think San
>> Francisco...)
>> > made that resulted in their meetings growing.
>> >
>> > One big change was that they dropped the fixed day of the month for the
>> > meetings. If there was a speaker that was not available on Wednesdays
>> but
>> > was available on Thursdays, then there would be a meeting on a Thursday.
>> > They also saw a number of new people as it turned out there were a
>> number
>> > of people on the mailing list that also couldn't make a Wednesday but
>> could
>> > make a Thursday. Of course there were some that then couldn't make the
>> > Thursday, but over time that would even out with meetings on Tuesdays,
>> > Fridays, Mondays, etc...
>> >
>> > Another change they made was to not require the talks to be on perl,
>> just
>> > that the talks should be something interesting to people that used perl.
>> > This concept is not new to us, I remember a talk on git a few years ago
>> and
>> > more recently there was a night where the focus was on embedded systems
>> > such as arduino, raspberry pi, beaglebone, etc.
>> >
>> > These are things to consider...
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7 January 2015 at 08:53, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:
>> >
>> > >  From my experience in Sydney PM and taken from experiences with SF pm
>> > > and SL pm - just start having meetings consistently and attendance
>> will
>> > > swell.
>> > >
>> > > Even if the first meeting is 3-4 people, press forward and promote
>> each
>> > > event via blogs.perl.org, reddit, facebook etc.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dean
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 2015-01-06 23:53, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
>> > >
>> > > After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in
>> 2015?
>> > >
>> > > How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have
>> had a
>> > > decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Stephen
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Melbourne-pm mailing listMelbourne-pm at pm.orghttp://
>> mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Melbourne-pm mailing list
>> > > Melbourne-pm at pm.org
>> > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>> > >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Tim Connors
>> _______________________________________________
>> Melbourne-pm mailing list
>> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
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From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 18:11:26 2015
From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 13:11:26 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>

Can you provide an example comparing mod_perl+Plack vs say Starman+Plack ?

On 7 January 2015 at 12:06, Drew Taylor <drew at drewtaylor.com> wrote:

> Anything Plack-based is your friend. IMHO mod_perl should be considered
> legacy technology these days.
>
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From drew at drewtaylor.com  Wed Jan  7 03:23:19 2015
From: drew at drewtaylor.com (Drew Taylor)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 22:23:19 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKcQOu3HAYQhSD9CC98b=UK0uT+7JepCv9yY3=VJUMu1y8Jttg@mail.gmail.com>

AFAIK mod_perl is incompatible with Plack. Plack-based apps run standalone
daemons which are proxied to via mod_proxy, FCGI, etc. Where as with
mod_perl there is an embedded perl interpreter within the httpd process.
They are very different technologies.

Drew

On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Mathew Robertson <
mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Can you provide an example comparing mod_perl+Plack vs say Starman+Plack ?
>
> On 7 January 2015 at 12:06, Drew Taylor <drew at drewtaylor.com> wrote:
>
>> Anything Plack-based is your friend. IMHO mod_perl should be considered
>> legacy technology these days.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
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From dean at fragfest.com.au  Wed Jan  7 03:23:57 2015
From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:23:57 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7ac967f08091604d989b9395be6ff473@fragfest.com.au>

 

I disagree that its legacy tech... just that other methods of page
generation have proved more popular/robust. 

To quote mst on his world-famous-ish mstpan series... 

"Look. mod_perl was written as a means to write apache modules in perl.
It's awesome at that. Seriously. You can do some truly batshit insane
things that way and segfault a lot less than you would trying to do them
in C... But... You don't want your application mashed into your web
server. You really don't." http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/mstpan-2/


mod_perl is great to inserting custom functionality to random parts of
the web server, like authentication or logging or something. 

I used to create apps integrating straight with mod_perl as handlers via
Apache2::Request etc. They are great on memory but terrible to debug. 

I found they were very straight forward to convert to Plack, which
provided me with all Placks wonders including stand along webserver and
auto-reloading code. 

Having cross both of those bridges, I concur entirely with mst in his
mstpan article about web frameworks ->
http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/mstpan-1/ 

For really tiny stuff, CGI is fine. 

Otherwise I am tried of writing dispatching code, authorization &
authentication code and i use the same template libraries anyway. So i
just let Catalyst do all that and much more with its REST plugins etc.
It is big and chews memory, but trying to run high performance web
applications on a raspberry pi or tiny aws instances isn't a hobby of
mine. 

I have no aversion to Dancer or Mojolicious I just don't find myself
turning to them. 

Dean 

On 2015-01-07 12:06, Drew Taylor wrote: 

> Anything Plack-based is your friend. IMHO mod_perl should be considered legacy technology these days. 
> 
> Drew 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Mathew Robertson <mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> mod_perl is your friend. 
> 
> On 7 January 2015 at 11:22, Tim Connors <tim.w.connors at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Ooh, I wonder if I should put something together about my air
> conditioner/heater controller. Teaching myself ajax, and javascript, but
> on the minus side, using CGI::Fast (on the pi, CGI ':standard' takes about
> a second to load, and when it takes 5 ajax queries to display the state of
> the air conditioner, fast matters; plus, I'm too old a dog to learn
> mojolicious and everything all the cool kids are using. On the
> minus-minus-bad side, the AC's state machine is done in bash.
> 
> But yet, pub next Wednesday.
> 
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2015, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
> 
>> There was a blog post I read last year (and now cannot find again) that
>> talked about changes that a perl mongers group (I think San Francisco...)
>> made that resulted in their meetings growing.
>>
>> One big change was that they dropped the fixed day of the month for the
>> meetings. If there was a speaker that was not available on Wednesdays but
>> was available on Thursdays, then there would be a meeting on a Thursday.
>> They also saw a number of new people as it turned out there were a number
>> of people on the mailing list that also couldn't make a Wednesday but could
>> make a Thursday. Of course there were some that then couldn't make the
>> Thursday, but over time that would even out with meetings on Tuesdays,
>> Fridays, Mondays, etc...
>>
>> Another change they made was to not require the talks to be on perl, just
>> that the talks should be something interesting to people that used perl.
>> This concept is not new to us, I remember a talk on git a few years ago and
>> more recently there was a night where the focus was on embedded systems
>> such as arduino, raspberry pi, beaglebone, etc.
>>
>> These are things to consider...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>> On 7 January 2015 at 08:53, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> > From my experience in Sydney PM and taken from experiences with SF pm
>> > and SL pm - just start having meetings consistently and attendance will
>> > swell.
>> >
>> > Even if the first meeting is 3-4 people, press forward and promote each
>> > event via blogs.perl.org [1], reddit, facebook etc.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2015-01-06 23:53, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
>> >
>> > After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in 2015?
>> >
>> > How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We have had a
>> > decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________ > > Melbourne-pm mailing listMelbourne-pm at pm.orghttp://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [2]
>>>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Melbourne-pm mailing list
>> > Melbourne-pm at pm.org
>> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [2]
>> >
>>
> 
> --
> Tim Connors
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [2] 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [2]

_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [2]

 

Links:
------
[1] http://blogs.perl.org
[2] http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
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From dean at fragfest.com.au  Wed Jan  7 03:25:19 2015
From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:25:19 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAKcQOu3HAYQhSD9CC98b=UK0uT+7JepCv9yY3=VJUMu1y8Jttg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu3HAYQhSD9CC98b=UK0uT+7JepCv9yY3=VJUMu1y8Jttg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <251c61726571b3d376da22b2e676bf78@fragfest.com.au>

 

What you talkin bout willis? 

http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/Plack-1.0033/lib/Plack/Handler/Apache2.pm


Dean 

On 2015-01-07 22:23, Drew Taylor wrote: 

> AFAIK mod_perl is incompatible with Plack. Plack-based apps run standalone daemons which are proxied to via mod_proxy, FCGI, etc. Where as with mod_perl there is an embedded perl interpreter within the httpd process. They are very different technologies. 
> 
> Drew 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Mathew Robertson <mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Can you provide an example comparing mod_perl+Plack vs say Starman+Plack ? 
> 
> On 7 January 2015 at 12:06, Drew Taylor <drew at drewtaylor.com> wrote:
> 
> Anything Plack-based is your friend. IMHO mod_perl should be considered legacy technology these days. 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [1]

_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm [1]

 

Links:
------
[1] http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
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From rob at eatenbyagrue.org  Wed Jan  7 04:05:30 2015
From: rob at eatenbyagrue.org (Robert Norris)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 23:05:30 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1420632330.1627748.210645933.796E5B76@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Wed, Jan 7, 2015, at 01:11 PM, Mathew Robertson wrote:
> Can you provide an example comparing mod_perl+Plack vs say
> Starman+Plack ?

For a new app, I wouldn't touch mod_perl unless I was forced to for
some reason.

At FastMail our web middleware is all pure mod_perl handlers, but that's
only because mod_perl was just how you did large Perl applications when
we started back in 1999. Really though, we don't do anything fancy with
it, just request unpacking and dispatch. Any interesting HTTP-level
stuff happens in nginx.

New applications are all PSGI. The first was a REST API for some of our
account management services, and is Dancer+Starman. The most recent is
an image proxy, which is raw PSGI on Starlet. Both run behind nginx.
These days I'd be looking at Gazelle for the server, still behind nginx.

We're idly planning to move our primary stack off mod_perl, initially
using Plack::App::FakeApache. Its fairly low priority though because
we understood mod_perl and built tools to deal with the pointy bits
years ago.

So basically, if you have the choice and don't know that you want
mod_perl for some specific reason, go down the PSGI/Plack route.

Cheers, Rob N.
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From dean at fragfest.com.au  Wed Jan  7 14:52:39 2015
From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 09:52:39 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <1420632330.1627748.210645933.796E5B76@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1420632330.1627748.210645933.796E5B76@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <a3a4a96ea2f38ed2333255834ff3af02@fragfest.com.au>

 

> We're idly planning to move our primary stack off mod_perl, initially using Plack::App::FakeApache. Its fairly low priority though because we understood mod_perl and built tools to deal with the pointy bits years ago.

Plack::Request and Plack::Response are 'drop in' replacements for their
Apache:: name sakes. See
http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/Plack-1.0033/lib/Plack/Request.pm 

Depending on what you are doing in mod_perl, they may be a better
solution. 

Dean 
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From drew at drewtaylor.com  Wed Jan  7 15:30:16 2015
From: drew at drewtaylor.com (Drew Taylor)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 10:30:16 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <7ac967f08091604d989b9395be6ff473@fragfest.com.au>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7ac967f08091604d989b9395be6ff473@fragfest.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAKcQOu2o7b7=W=Xyyed-sgxTFH-TeBCC1dMQQbGpZ5HzPNiK+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:

>  I disagree that its legacy tech... just that other methods of page
> generation have proved more popular/robust.
>

I meant legacy in the sense that I wouldn't recommend starting a new
project using mod_perl. It works fine and will continue to be supported for
quite some time I imagine. At $work our apps run on mod_perl, though I've
toyed with the idea of using Plack::App::CGIBin [1] to switch to a
Plack-based app server for easier debugging and deployment.

> To quote mst on his world-famous-ish mstpan series...
>
> "Look. mod_perl was written as a means to write apache modules in perl.
> It's awesome at that. Seriously. You can do some truly batshit insane
> things that way and segfault a lot less than you would trying to do them in
> C... But... You don't want your application mashed into your web server.
> You really don't." http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/mstpan-2/
>
> mod_perl is great to inserting custom functionality to random parts of the
> web server, like authentication or logging or something.
>
> I used to create apps integrating straight with mod_perl as handlers via
> Apache2::Request etc. They are great on memory but terrible to debug.
>
I haven't done any mod_perl development recently which uses any
functionality other than the request (?) phase. Recently as in at least a
decade.

Thanks,
Drew

[1] https://metacpan.org/pod/Plack::App::CGIBin

>
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From rob at eatenbyagrue.org  Wed Jan  7 15:32:24 2015
From: rob at eatenbyagrue.org (Robert Norris)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 10:32:24 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <a3a4a96ea2f38ed2333255834ff3af02@fragfest.com.au>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1420632330.1627748.210645933.796E5B76@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<a3a4a96ea2f38ed2333255834ff3af02@fragfest.com.au>
Message-ID: <1420673544.2071138.210957005.77B5FE11@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Thu, Jan 8, 2015, at 09:52 AM, Dean Hamstead wrote:
> Plack::Request and Plack::Response are 'drop in' replacements for
> their Apache:: name sakes. See
> http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/Plack-1.0033/lib/Plack/Request.pm
>
> Depending on what you are doing in mod_perl, they may be a better
> solution.

Not drop-in. They perform similar functions, but don't implement exactly
the same interface.

We've extended Apache::RequestRec fairly heavily so there's a bit of
porting work to be done there. I don't think it would be an enormous job
but like I say, there's not a whole lot of incentive to do it right now.

Rob N.
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From drew at drewtaylor.com  Wed Jan  7 15:34:40 2015
From: drew at drewtaylor.com (Drew Taylor)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 10:34:40 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <251c61726571b3d376da22b2e676bf78@fragfest.com.au>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABG5UsUGdDvHcwhBQQOsUFrUDMkf95FxZHi8YFrz6=HttBXAXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu3HAYQhSD9CC98b=UK0uT+7JepCv9yY3=VJUMu1y8Jttg@mail.gmail.com>
	<251c61726571b3d376da22b2e676bf78@fragfest.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAKcQOu1Jb7n3fjQ2CEfmcczOt=hoySrtvzWE4XKBfEcUHo7nAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:

>  What you talkin bout willis?
>
> http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/Plack-1.0033/lib/Plack/Handler/Apache2.pm
>

Huh, you learn something new every day. I imagine the situations you'd want
to use this are pretty specialised (straddling both worlds?), but it's
definitely neat to have the option. :)

Drew
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From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com  Wed Jan  7 18:21:16 2015
From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 13:21:16 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAKcQOu2o7b7=W=Xyyed-sgxTFH-TeBCC1dMQQbGpZ5HzPNiK+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7ac967f08091604d989b9395be6ff473@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAKcQOu2o7b7=W=Xyyed-sgxTFH-TeBCC1dMQQbGpZ5HzPNiK+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABG5UsUsdxHLS4nYF0rxr_v5pT6CK4=qWyTfprsCWvmYFHyyMA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 January 2015 at 10:30, Drew Taylor <drew at drewtaylor.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>>  I disagree that its legacy tech... just that other methods of page
>> generation have proved more popular/robust.
>>
>
> I meant legacy in the sense that I wouldn't recommend starting a new
> project using mod_perl. It works fine and will continue to be supported for
> quite some time I imagine. At $work our apps run on mod_perl, though I've
> toyed with the idea of using Plack::App::CGIBin [1] to switch to a
> Plack-based app server for easier debugging and deployment.
>

And here is the crux of the mod-perl diversion...  the Tim Conners already
had existing code in the form of CGI::Fast.... So to get the code to run
faster, then a couple of lines of Apache config to setup mod_perl, would
solve the problem.
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From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 14:43:58 2015
From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 09:43:58 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1501081452160.827@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501071116520.9955@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
	<CABG5UsX8O_h_c-DrjpkEeQ_EgFg+Ji79XEBfvBbq992z1K9vvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKcQOu2o9ccGy4-PfKLR6JSeYoXB5W6-BK-ArntEr7djK9U6uQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7ac967f08091604d989b9395be6ff473@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAKcQOu2o7b7=W=Xyyed-sgxTFH-TeBCC1dMQQbGpZ5HzPNiK+w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABG5UsUsdxHLS4nYF0rxr_v5pT6CK4=qWyTfprsCWvmYFHyyMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1501081452160.827@dirac.rather.puzzling.org>
Message-ID: <CABG5UsXAr1JFDYZ1M5DwH+HN+i4U85MiZqbmvRzyLDee_LKWog@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > And here is the crux of the mod-perl diversion...  the Tim Conners
> already
>                                                                  ^ bah
> Why does everyone do that? :)
>

Diverting conversation is a specialty that I attempt to excel at... and I
think most others on this list do too.  :-P


> > had existing code in the form of CGI::Fast.... So to get the code to run
> > faster, then a couple of lines of Apache config to setup mod_perl, would
> > solve the problem.
>
> From my very brief reading, doesn't mod_perl have the same problem that
> CGI::Fast has in that the brief running program you expected to set up a
> bunch of global variables, which then get discarded upon program exit, are
> all now sitting inside the scope of another loop, and now you have to port
> your code to make sure that all such traces of global variables are
> reinitialised every loop?
>


Depends on what you mean by global variables...

Often mod_perl will only speed up the initial perl-compilation bit -> the
module initialisation is performed on every invocation.
ie: it means that any module-scope variables which you do modify at
run-time, will be reset at every invocation.

... thus you code should just "drop in" with no changes [ and only say 3
lines of Apache config -> load mod-perl and configure
Apache/ModPerl::PerlRun/Registry etc  ].

For a decent percentage (aka: most, some, a little bit...) of code, a
global variable is initialised only on module startup, then used in
read-only context (aka treating them as global constants).
So with a few more lines of Apache config, you can pre-load modules which
have heavy module initialisation... this allows each invocation to inherit
the pre-loaded data.


> So there's no silver bullet drop in replacement for
> CGI::really_really_slow.  You'll be porting code one way or another.
>

No porting required.

It could be a silver bullet... but its sheen is sometimes a little off,
such as requiring manual restart of Apache whenever a module-file (xx.pm)
is changed.


>
> (my 5 ajax queries now take a fraction of a second total instead of
> bogging the pi down for more than 5 seconds.  Hopefully all my globals
> are reset each CGI::Fast loop
>

Does this mean you used mod-perl ?   Or some other technique?
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From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 14:44:12 2015
From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 09:44:12 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] CGI quirks and other lightweight web-tools
Message-ID: <CABG5UsVQm6Pe9bmPCTEpw4-0iMrfQE4pvKhYZDPEppgCRCOjBg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi PM,

In the thread discussing CGI, mod-perl and other frameworks, I thought it
might be worth discussing the good/bad points of CGI, and/or other
lightweight web-tools.  Am interested in other peoples thoughts.

Generally speaking whenever I use a framework, in particular
web-frameworks, they dramatically simplify about 80% of the workload - at
the expense of making the last 20% near-impossible to work around.

eg:
- Catalyst about 5 yrs ago, was pretty good for its time at integrating
database I/O - unless you had a table with a multi-column primary key.
- Anything with Java Spring - yay for a few lines of code to handle CRUD;
boo for knowing which config/xml file to modify just to set it up first time
- Java Hibernate v2 and v3 - again multi-column primary keys.

As such, my gut-feel is that "there be dragons whenever a framework is
used".
On the other hand "Libraries are awesome".


A similar discussion has taken place around bless() vs using Moose, et al.


So stepping back to learn from what we know... and since CGI.pm started
this discussion...

Good bits :
-  param(), url_param(), cookie()

Bad bits:
-  param and url_param ... why isn't there a way to get all params...
- it would be nice if CGI could work a little nicer with Getopt::Long so
that in non-GATEWAY_INTERFACE mode, it would use command-line arguments
 [... sounds like a useful module idea ! ]
- the whole "html shortcuts" thing.


Other people's thoughts on CGI.pm?
What other "basic tools" really help you get your work done?

cheers,
Mathew



eg: I have this that I load up in almost every bit of code that I write, so
that it gives me some (more!) globals, and sets $0 to be "$perl_script"
(instead of "perl $perl_script").... Obviously doing this everywhere comes
with a start-up cost.

package Lib;
BEGIN {
  $TIME0 = [gettimeofday];
  $BASENAME = basename($0);
  $BASEPATH = abs_path(dirname($0)) || "";
  $BASEPATH = '/' unless (length $BASEPATH);
  $FULLNAME = $0 =~ /^\// ? $0 : ($ENV{PWD} ? $ENV{PWD}."/".$0 : $0);
  $FULLNAME = canonpath($FULLNAME) || "";
  while ($FULLNAME =~ /\.\./) {
    $FULLNAME =~ s/\/?[^\/]*?\/\.\.//;
  }
  $DIRNAME = "".$FULLNAME;
  $DIRNAME =~ s/\/$BASENAME$//;
  $DIRNAME = '/' unless (length $DIRNAME);
  if (!$ENV{GATEWAY_INTERFACE} && !$ENV{MOD_PERL}) {
    lib->import($BASEPATH);
    $0 = "$BASEPATH/$BASENAME".(@ARGV == 0 ? "" : " ".join(" ", at ARGV));
    eval {
      require Sys::Prctl;
      Sys::Prctl::prctl_name($BASENAME);
    };
  }
}
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From mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 14:44:32 2015
From: mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 09:44:32 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] mod_perl quirks
Message-ID: <CABG5UsVdKsRMRmjYiJkSWOwLftA9kcD+Ne99+AYZ9NU3WHJ2tg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi PM,

During the mod-perl vs other frameworks discussion, I remembered one
particular annoyance of mod-perl...  all the mod-perl error-log messages
saying stuff like:


  Constant subroutine redefined
  PV = SV
  REFCNT
  FLAGS
  ...

I have scoured the web trying to determine what/where this comes from -
eventually identifying the problem as "yeah Mod-Perl does that... they are
only warnings so just ignore them". But alas that just fills up the Apache
errorlog.  And no amount of Apache error-level settings changed this
behaviour.

So eventually I came up with this...  any other solutions?

regards,
Mathew



In apache2.conf :

   ErrorLog "||/usr/local/bin/apache_log_filter.pl
${APACHE_LOG_DIR}/error.log"

In /usr/local/bin/apache_log_filter.pl :

#!/usr/bin/perl
use strict;
use warnings FATAL => 'all';
use utf8;

my $logfile = $ARGV[0] or die "Missing logfile name";
open(LOG,">>",$logfile) or die "Failed opening: $logfile";
select((select(LOG), $|=1)[0]);
my $last = '';
my $catch_at;
while(<STDIN>) {
  $last = $_ unless /^ at .* line \d+/;
  if (/^Prototype mismatch/) {
    $catch_at = 1;
    next;
  }
  next if /^Constant subroutine/;
  next if /^SV = /;
  next if /^  REFCNT /;
  next if /^  FLAGS /;
  next if /^  PV /;
  next if /^PV\(0x.*\) at 0x/;
  if (/^ at .* line \d+/) {
    if ($catch_at) {
      $catch_at = 0;
      next;
    }
    print LOG $last;
    print LOG $_;
    next;
  }
  print LOG $_;
}
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From andrew at geekuni.com  Thu Jan  8 15:10:11 2015
From: andrew at geekuni.com (Andrew Solomon)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 23:10:11 +0000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] CGI quirks and other lightweight web-tools
In-Reply-To: <CABG5UsVQm6Pe9bmPCTEpw4-0iMrfQE4pvKhYZDPEppgCRCOjBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABG5UsVQm6Pe9bmPCTEpw4-0iMrfQE4pvKhYZDPEppgCRCOjBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN=twKtSKXYUuiM0=qZ34Bj8ZRifAuHdtQoAfkeWcLAZb88KZg@mail.gmail.com>

[Oops - copying the list this time]

I last used CGI over 5 years ago. On moving to Catalyst I found I
wasted less time focussing on the low level details. That said,
working at such a high level of abstraction came with its costs too.
Dancer2 is now my preference and I find it to be a nice middle-ground.
These days if you want to operate at the low level, Plack is probably
the way to go. And the good thing is that you can treat Plack as
middleware and let the simple requests percolate up to
Dancer/Catalyst/Mojolicious or whatever takes your fancy.


https://metacpan.org/pod/CGI#CGI.pm-HAS-BEEN-REMOVED-FROM-THE-PERL-CORE

https://metacpan.org/pod/CGI::Alternatives

http://advent.plackperl.org/2009/12/day-10-using-plack-middleware.html


Andrew

On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Mathew Robertson
<mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi PM,
>
> In the thread discussing CGI, mod-perl and other frameworks, I thought it
> might be worth discussing the good/bad points of CGI, and/or other
> lightweight web-tools.  Am interested in other peoples thoughts.
>
> Generally speaking whenever I use a framework, in particular web-frameworks,
> they dramatically simplify about 80% of the workload - at the expense of
> making the last 20% near-impossible to work around.
>
> eg:
> - Catalyst about 5 yrs ago, was pretty good for its time at integrating
> database I/O - unless you had a table with a multi-column primary key.
> - Anything with Java Spring - yay for a few lines of code to handle CRUD;
> boo for knowing which config/xml file to modify just to set it up first time
> - Java Hibernate v2 and v3 - again multi-column primary keys.
>
> As such, my gut-feel is that "there be dragons whenever a framework is
> used".
> On the other hand "Libraries are awesome".
>
>
> A similar discussion has taken place around bless() vs using Moose, et al.
>
>
> So stepping back to learn from what we know... and since CGI.pm started this
> discussion...
>
> Good bits :
> -  param(), url_param(), cookie()
>
> Bad bits:
> -  param and url_param ... why isn't there a way to get all params...
> - it would be nice if CGI could work a little nicer with Getopt::Long so
> that in non-GATEWAY_INTERFACE mode, it would use command-line arguments
> [... sounds like a useful module idea ! ]
> - the whole "html shortcuts" thing.
>
>
> Other people's thoughts on CGI.pm?
> What other "basic tools" really help you get your work done?
>
> cheers,
> Mathew
>
>
>
> eg: I have this that I load up in almost every bit of code that I write, so
> that it gives me some (more!) globals, and sets $0 to be "$perl_script"
> (instead of "perl $perl_script").... Obviously doing this everywhere comes
> with a start-up cost.
>
> package Lib;
> BEGIN {
>   $TIME0 = [gettimeofday];
>   $BASENAME = basename($0);
>   $BASEPATH = abs_path(dirname($0)) || "";
>   $BASEPATH = '/' unless (length $BASEPATH);
>   $FULLNAME = $0 =~ /^\// ? $0 : ($ENV{PWD} ? $ENV{PWD}."/".$0 : $0);
>   $FULLNAME = canonpath($FULLNAME) || "";
>   while ($FULLNAME =~ /\.\./) {
>     $FULLNAME =~ s/\/?[^\/]*?\/\.\.//;
>   }
>   $DIRNAME = "".$FULLNAME;
>   $DIRNAME =~ s/\/$BASENAME$//;
>   $DIRNAME = '/' unless (length $DIRNAME);
>   if (!$ENV{GATEWAY_INTERFACE} && !$ENV{MOD_PERL}) {
>     lib->import($BASEPATH);
>     $0 = "$BASEPATH/$BASENAME".(@ARGV == 0 ? "" : " ".join(" ", at ARGV));
>     eval {
>       require Sys::Prctl;
>       Sys::Prctl::prctl_name($BASENAME);
>     };
>   }
> }
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm



-- 
Andrew Solomon

Mentor at Geekuni http://geekuni.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/asolomon

From scottp at dd.com.au  Thu Jan  8 15:19:33 2015
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:19:33 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] CGI quirks and other lightweight web-tools
In-Reply-To: <WM!c4e9a6b6b163931fe03395335b3ddfe52f23f390fe5de8e1154b5fbaeab2f23bf629e2cbd327db1106b5ea0de05a4b1e!@asav-1.01.com>
References: <CABG5UsVQm6Pe9bmPCTEpw4-0iMrfQE4pvKhYZDPEppgCRCOjBg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAN=twKtSKXYUuiM0=qZ34Bj8ZRifAuHdtQoAfkeWcLAZb88KZg@mail.gmail.com>
	<WM!c4e9a6b6b163931fe03395335b3ddfe52f23f390fe5de8e1154b5fbaeab2f23bf629e2cbd327db1106b5ea0de05a4b1e!@asav-1.01.com>
Message-ID: <8D15DF04-5C36-46A8-8E35-99C41348C271@dd.com.au>

Slightly off topic? but we use Dancer for a number of projects, including our Health API. It is great, easy to use, does just what it says on the box and most of all very flexible. 

However, due to external pressure, I am writing a lot of code for a new project in the US which can?t use Perl and we are using NodeJS and Express. The reason I mention that is because I quite like Javascript & Node/Express as it feels very similar to writing in Perl & Dancer. A natural fit for my brain.

Scott


From sam at nipl.net  Thu Jan  8 17:14:08 2015
From: sam at nipl.net (Sam Watkins)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:14:08 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] CGI quirks and other lightweight web-tools
In-Reply-To: <CABG5UsVQm6Pe9bmPCTEpw4-0iMrfQE4pvKhYZDPEppgCRCOjBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABG5UsVQm6Pe9bmPCTEpw4-0iMrfQE4pvKhYZDPEppgCRCOjBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150109011408.GD9159@opal.nipl.net>

On Fri, Jan 09, 2015 at 09:44:12AM +1100, Mathew Robertson wrote:
> Generally speaking whenever I use a framework, in particular
> web-frameworks, they dramatically simplify about 80% of the workload - at
> the expense of making the last 20% near-impossible to work around.

> On the other hand "Libraries are awesome".

I agree, I would rather not use a 3rd party framework.  It seems they
seldom give such value as to be worth the difficulty of learning them,
learning to hack around them, and dealing with their quirks and
annoyances.

My current thoughts on web apps: provide a REST-like interface on the
server side, and do all templating and display using javascript with
html templates (no special [% markup %]) on the client side.

Downside is that it depends on javascript.

Advantages, it's very light on the server and uses very little
bandwidth, transmitting only the data that it needs to.  Pages load
quicker.  It's good to have an API for all aspects of the app.  The
templates are plain html pages, including example content, so it would
be relatively easy for a web designer without app coding skills to work
on improving the templates.

I haven't developed a full app in this style yet, but I started to make
the templating engine and it seems to work okay.

As for CGI, it's a low-level API.  The biggest problem is the cost of
fork and exec each process.  There are many alternatives which avoid
that cost while remaining largely compatible with CGI.  I agree it's not
a great idea to conglomerate your web app in with the apache server.


From kaoru at slackwise.net  Fri Jan  9 01:09:32 2015
From: kaoru at slackwise.net (Alex Balhatchet)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 09:09:32 +0000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] mod_perl quirks
In-Reply-To: <CABG5UsVdKsRMRmjYiJkSWOwLftA9kcD+Ne99+AYZ9NU3WHJ2tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABG5UsVdKsRMRmjYiJkSWOwLftA9kcD+Ne99+AYZ9NU3WHJ2tg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJBQ1Rxp9iTMMOuZCWq4SSFp6Q-rNZ74zE9K9V1g2KQ3YhhCzg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mathew,

We're using mod_perl extensively at Nestoria and I don't think we've
ever seen these errors in our apache error logs.

We're on apache 2.2.29 and mod_perl 2.0.8.

Do you know what phase the errors are occurring in?

http://perl.apache.org/docs/2.0/user/handlers/server.html

- Alex

On 8 January 2015 at 22:44, Mathew Robertson
<mathew.blair.robertson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi PM,
>
> During the mod-perl vs other frameworks discussion, I remembered one
> particular annoyance of mod-perl...  all the mod-perl error-log messages
> saying stuff like:
>
>
>   Constant subroutine redefined
>   PV = SV
>   REFCNT
>   FLAGS
>   ...
>
> I have scoured the web trying to determine what/where this comes from -
> eventually identifying the problem as "yeah Mod-Perl does that... they are
> only warnings so just ignore them". But alas that just fills up the Apache
> errorlog.  And no amount of Apache error-level settings changed this
> behaviour.
>
> So eventually I came up with this...  any other solutions?
>
> regards,
> Mathew
>
>
>
> In apache2.conf :
>
>    ErrorLog "||/usr/local/bin/apache_log_filter.pl
> ${APACHE_LOG_DIR}/error.log"
>
> In /usr/local/bin/apache_log_filter.pl :
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> use strict;
> use warnings FATAL => 'all';
> use utf8;
>
> my $logfile = $ARGV[0] or die "Missing logfile name";
> open(LOG,">>",$logfile) or die "Failed opening: $logfile";
> select((select(LOG), $|=1)[0]);
> my $last = '';
> my $catch_at;
> while(<STDIN>) {
>   $last = $_ unless /^ at .* line \d+/;
>   if (/^Prototype mismatch/) {
>     $catch_at = 1;
>     next;
>   }
>   next if /^Constant subroutine/;
>   next if /^SV = /;
>   next if /^  REFCNT /;
>   next if /^  FLAGS /;
>   next if /^  PV /;
>   next if /^PV\(0x.*\) at 0x/;
>   if (/^ at .* line \d+/) {
>     if ($catch_at) {
>       $catch_at = 0;
>       next;
>     }
>     print LOG $last;
>     print LOG $_;
>     next;
>   }
>   print LOG $_;
> }
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From list at bereft.net  Sun Jan 11 13:49:58 2015
From: list at bereft.net (Brad Bowman)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 13:49:58 -0800
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl Mongers in 2015...
In-Reply-To: <CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAECH6uNQNxM7jU8gpdvP8iYNgYeqn2zzbn5d+g34TWN7AvvXjA@mail.gmail.com>	<7bf141805f8b0a29a314ab5ad30253f2@fragfest.com.au>
	<CAECH6uPGFQHFMknzse49H_q87avAhA17XzSN33E5k8PNvN_qnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54B2F006.7000502@bereft.net>


An interesting take on user group meetings:

http://blog.factual.com/clojure-office-hours

Have office hours rather than lecture style.
I've also attended groups that hack on projects.
The Perl bug bash way back when was fun.

Brad

On 15-01-06 03:59 PM, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
> There was a blog post I read last year (and now cannot find again) 
> that talked about changes that a perl mongers group (I think San 
> Francisco...) made that resulted in their meetings growing.
>
> One big change was that they dropped the fixed day of the month for 
> the meetings. If there was a speaker that was not available on 
> Wednesdays but was available on Thursdays, then there would be a 
> meeting on a Thursday. They also saw a number of new people as it 
> turned out there were a number of people on the mailing list that also 
> couldn't make a Wednesday but could make a Thursday. Of course there 
> were some that then couldn't make the Thursday, but over time that 
> would even out with meetings on Tuesdays, Fridays, Mondays, etc...
>
> Another change they made was to not require the talks to be on perl, 
> just that the talks should be something interesting to people that 
> used perl. This concept is not new to us, I remember a talk on git a 
> few years ago and more recently there was a night where the focus was 
> on embedded systems such as arduino, raspberry pi, beaglebone, etc.
>
> These are things to consider...
>
> Thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
> On 7 January 2015 at 08:53, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au 
> <mailto:dean at fragfest.com.au>> wrote:
>
>     From my experience in Sydney PM and taken from experiences with SF
>     pm and SL pm - just start having meetings consistently and
>     attendance will swell.
>
>     Even if the first meeting is 3-4 people, press forward and promote
>     each event via blogs.perl.org <http://blogs.perl.org>, reddit,
>     facebook etc.
>
>     Dean
>
>     On 2015-01-06 23:53, Stephen Edmonds wrote:
>
>>     After not having any meetings in 2014, what are we going to do in
>>     2015?
>>     How about we get started with a social meeting on the 14th? We
>>     have had a decent number at the Mitre Tavern in the past...
>>     Thanks,
>>     Stephen
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Melbourne-pm mailing list
>>     Melbourne-pm at pm.org  <mailto:Melbourne-pm at pm.org>
>>     http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Melbourne-pm mailing list
>     Melbourne-pm at pm.org <mailto:Melbourne-pm at pm.org>
>     http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
>
>
>
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From melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx  Tue Jan 13 03:42:07 2015
From: melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 22:42:07 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Social meeting - Wednesday 14 January 2015
Message-ID: <CAECH6uO1X740_xZ7YCEiB2Uc=n7GF6bqm-RY4uq_qRQKsVXYFw@mail.gmail.com>

Following on from my suggestion last week...

Day: Wednesday 14 January 2015
Time: 6:30pm
Place: Mitre Tavern, 5 Bank Place,
http://www.mitretavern.com.au/tavern-home.html

Probably at one of the outdoor tables.

Thanks,
Stephen
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