From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep  4 22:00:29 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:00:29 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next Meeting: Wednesday 10th September (NEXT WEEK)
Message-ID: <48C0BCED.4020109@perltraining.com.au>

G'day folk,

Just a quick reminder that our regular monthly meeting will run next week on
Wednesday 10th.  You are welcome to come and encouraged to bring friends,
family, co-workers and random people you find on the street.  :)

	Date:		Wednesday 10th September 2008
	Time:		6:30pm
	Location:	Level 1, 172 Flinders St,
	         	(just opposite Federation Square)
	Map:      	http://preview.tinyurl.com/6sa7l8

Agenda:

Vanessa Teague will give us a geeky introduction to electronic voting and the 
appropriate cryptographic coolness.

There's a second talk slot if someone else wants to present.

Paul might also beg for help with writing the perl 5.8.9 perldelta, but you'll 
probably hear from that sooner.

Afterwards we will find somewhere to eat and drink.

All the best,

	J


From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Sat Sep  6 02:51:15 2008
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 19:51:15 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Contribute towards the Perl 5.8.9 release documents
 and get supper bragging rights.
Message-ID: <48C25293.5030102@perltraining.com.au>

G'day Melbourne.pm,

As Jacinta mentioned briefly in her e-mail, I've volunteered to write the
release notes for the upcoming 5.8.9 release of Perl.  However I rapidly
discovered there's an awful lot of changes that need to be examined and
distilled into the final document that will become perl589delta.pod.

Luckily, this is a task that's easily broken into chunks and run in
parallel, and I've done exactly that.  I've got a copy of all the changes
that have gone into the 5.8 branch since 5.8.8 was released, and I've
chunked it by month.  Some months are quiet, with not many changes, and some
months are very busy, with lots of changes.

I'm making a call out to the Perl community to volunteer to help with the
writing of the release notes.  You don't need to be familiar with Perl's
guts to do this; if you don't understand a change we'll have a "too hard"
bucket that things can be thrown into, and someone (who may be me) will
figure them out.  Likewise, you don't need a lot of time; I'm not expecting
everyone who volunteers for a chunk of work to finish the entire chunk, just
as long as you work on it sequentially and let us know where you're up to,
you can put it down at any time.

Contributing to the perl589delta project directly helps with the release of
Perl 5.8.9.  However you'll also get a mention in the prestigious Perl
authors file, which looks totally awesome on your resume, and gives you
super bragging rights.  If you're on www.ohloh.net, you'll get kudos from
me, and commit points from the project.  Your work will almost certainly
give you enough material for a 5-minute "What's new in my bit of Perl 5.8.9"
lightning talk, which will make you incredibly popular at conferences and
user-groups.

In order to get started, just follow the instructions in the README file at
the bottom of our source control repository page at:

	http://github.com/pfenwick/perl589delta/

and sign up to the discussion list at:

	http://groups.google.com/group/perl589delta/

Feel free to track the repository or sign up the list even if you're not
sure if you want to contribute, and are just curious about how all this
works.  We're happy to have the company!

If you have any questions, you can ask on the list, e-mail me private, ask
on Wednesday at the Melb.pm meeting, or mail the perl589delta team at
perl589delta at googlegroups.com

Many thanks, and all the best,

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From thogard at abnormal.com  Sun Sep  7 18:23:09 2008
From: thogard at abnormal.com (Tim Hogard)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:23:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Zope conversion to Perl/Template Toolkit/something
Message-ID: <200809080123.m881N989044927@v.abnormal.com>


Hi,
 
I'm looking for someone to port a smallish application from Zope to
Perl using Template Toolkit and whatever other framework seems appropriate.
 
The current Zope project is about 3,500 lines of code and templates 
in a combined total of about 100 modules / object / clicky things.

We also have another project that is about 1/4 of the size.
 
We will consider a seasoned professional in which case we expect
professional level work or will consider this as a demo project
that could lead to an entry level coding job.

The code isn't open source and a NDA will be required.

If your interested, let me know off the list.

Thanks,

-tim

From thogard at abnormal.com  Sun Sep  7 18:52:20 2008
From: thogard at abnormal.com (Tim Hogard)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:52:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl interface to Powerflex/Dataflex/Nexus
Message-ID: <200809080152.m881qKwL046298@v.abnormal.com>


Has anyone ever done any work with accessing Powerflex or Dataflex data bases
from inside Perl?  We have an accounting system called Nexus and it would
be very nice to be able to get data into and out of it.

I think the only option is an ODBC hook of some type since CPAN dones't seem to 
have anything.

Thanks,
-tim


From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Tue Sep  9 18:36:14 2008
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:36:14 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next meeting TONIGHT (Wednesday): Crypto coolness,
 what's new in 5.8.9, and more!
Message-ID: <48C7248E.10701@perltraining.com.au>

G'day everyone,

The next Melbourne Perl Mongers meeting is TONIGHT, and everyone is invited!

    Date:        Wednesday 10th September 2008
    Time:        6:30pm
    Location:    Level 1, 172 Flinders St,
                 (just opposite Federation Square)
    Map:         http://preview.tinyurl.com/6sa7l8

Special guest star Vanessa Teague will talking about electronic voting and
why it's such a hard problem.  There'll be lots of juicy crypto details.

I'll be giving an informal talk on what's new in Perl 5.8.9, and how YOU can
help with the release process.  If you're not sick of me, then I can also
talk about the latest improvements in autodie, or show you six different
ways to have system() not do what you expect (and how to fix it).

Afterwards we'll be heading out for drinks, meals, and socialness.

Looking forward to seeing you all there tonight!

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From thogard at abnormal.com  Wed Sep 10 15:56:36 2008
From: thogard at abnormal.com (Tim Hogard)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:56:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
Message-ID: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>


Hi perl mongers,
 
I'm about to start a new project that is somewhat largish in scope and part of the workflow design we have involves using forms to login.  That in its self is about as earth shattering as the LHC but the discussion turned into what framework we intend to use and how we are going do the user authentication.  It seems to be that every web browser on the planet know about Basic Auth and most know about Digest Auth and Digest Auth seems to be about secure as anything when used with SSL.  So why reinvent a session logging system when there doesn't appear to be a need?  So I've been asking around looking for why some of the more complex systems are used.  The biggest reason cited so far is "You can't make a nice looking login form"... hmmmm.... I think thats not entirely true.

Consider a standard web form that asks for user name & password.  It tends to have a target of a
url but if thats a javascript that request http://$username:$pass at mysite/hidden.gif and then
goes to the a page (that requires basic or digest auth) then all the user sees it the page and never sees the ugly browser based login window.  The advantages of this type of login scheme include the browser keeping track of the user credentials in as secure of a way as it can, users without javascript can still login (entering their details twice), pages can be deep bookmarked,  scripts using wget and its clones can all get at any content, it works with users behind bad proxies where every request can come from a different IP address, scripts can be written in anything and static pages only need a core web server.

The disadvantages seem to be every framework doesn't want to work this way.

Any comments on this?

Thanks,

-tim

From scottp at dd.com.au  Wed Sep 10 16:12:58 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:12:58 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
Message-ID: <75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>

Good morning Tim,

On 11/09/2008, at 8:56 AM, Tim Hogard wrote:

>
> Hi perl mongers,
>
> I'm about to start a new project that is somewhat largish in scope  
> and part of the workflow design we have involves using forms to  
> login.  That in its self is about as earth shattering as the LHC but  
> the discussion turned into what framework we intend to use and how  
> we are going do the user authentication.

Are you using Apache?

If YES - then there is only one answer. Use Apache authentication  
modules. Under no circumstance use authentication modules built into  
frameworks.

Why?

* Now you can use any framework.
* You can mix frameworks, even using basic CGI in some places
* You can authenticate static pages
* It is faster
* More reliable
* FAR more secure

The last is the most important - none of your code is run before  
authentication is done. PHP often gets a bad wrap on security, but it  
is not PHP that is at fault, 9 times out of 10 it is just the  
programmer forgot to check some authentication.

And don't fall into the old trap of "But apache can only do Basic  
Auth" - Apache can do any auth !

>  It seems to be that every web browser on the planet know about  
> Basic Auth and most know about Digest Auth and Digest Auth seems to  
> be about secure as anything when used with SSL.

Actually there is no point in using digest auth with SSL. Digest auth  
is useful for non-SSL connections.

But personally I would be using a cookie.

> So why reinvent a session logging system when there doesn't appear  
> to be a need?  So I've been asking around looking for why some of  
> the more complex systems are used.  The biggest reason cited so far  
> is "You can't make a nice looking login form"... hmmmm.... I think  
> thats not entirely true.

Actually it is true for Digest and Basic auth. You have no control on  
that login form - you must use the Browser Built in. But remember it  
is just like using Email login, or FTP login - it is up to the  
application.

If you use cookies (like 99% of the most popular sites, including your  
bank) - you have complete control.

> Consider a standard web form that asks for user name & password.  It  
> tends to have a target of a
> url but if thats a javascript that request http://$username:$pass at mysite/hidden.gif 
>  and then
> goes to the a page (that requires basic or digest auth) then all the  
> user sees it the page and never sees the ugly browser based login  
> window.  The advantages of this type of login scheme include the  
> browser keeping track of the user credentials in as secure of a way  
> as it can, users without javascript can still login (entering their  
> details twice), pages can be deep bookmarked,  scripts using wget  
> and its clones can all get at any content, it works with users  
> behind bad proxies where every request can come from a different IP  
> address, scripts can be written in anything and static pages only  
> need a core web server.

Unfortunately that is insecure. You are now logging the clear text  
username and password in browser history and maybe worse.

But also you will hit some technical issues. For example, browsers  
hate having their name/password changed. Try logging in with basic  
auth (digest is the same, it is just how it is encoded) and then  
change user with the method you mentioned above (just type in the URL.

It will either not change at all, or in some browsers will ask you to  
login again from scratch, or in some will ask you if you want to  
switch users.

And there is no logout.

> The disadvantages seem to be every framework doesn't want to work  
> this way.

One of the great features of moving the auth into Apache is that it  
works with all frameworks.

I really HATE frameworks inventing their own authentication. Or worse  
still, applications all doing their own. There is no need, it is just  
that most people don't realise you can do it separately.

That being said, you may need to write a tiny module (usually a couple  
of lines at most) to allow the framework to detect the user already  
logged in. Most frameworks (e.g. Catalyst) already have this built in.

There is one area unfortunately that you often have to do in your own  
code. And that is access control.

I would encourage you to write your access control modules in Apache  
too - but you can't always do that. For example, the access control  
might be dependent on the data you are reading. Think of a simple  
access control which says that this user can't read any file with the  
word 'poo' in it. Or it may just be too much overhead to access the  
database to work out if they can access this URL. But for the most  
part - e.g. Admin vs Normal user - do the access controls in Apache too.

BTW. When I say Apache - I still mean Perl - just a different mod_perl  
handler.

If you need help or more information, I have written quite a few of  
these - just give me a buzz.

Also - I will be keen on hearing which framework you use. I have moved  
away from frameworks for my recent applications. The main reason for  
this is that most of the intelligence and work is now in Javascript,  
so that the backend access is just some simple business rules  
accessing database or similar and returning AJAX. The reasons for  
frameworks such as "Dispatch" I find easier to handle in Apache  
config. Returning AJAX is a one line code via JSON module.

Scott

From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Wed Sep 10 17:00:08 2008
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:00:08 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
	<75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <48C85F88.8000005@netratings.com.au>


>>  It seems to be that every web browser on the planet know about Basic 
>> Auth and most know about Digest Auth and Digest Auth seems to be 
>> about secure as anything when used with SSL.
>
> Actually there is no point in using digest auth with SSL. Digest auth 
> is useful for non-SSL connections.
>
sort of... Digest auth is still susceptible to replay-attack.  You might 
as well simply hash your password, then send it over basic auth -> it 
will give you close to the same level of security.
> But personally I would be using a cookie.
>
There was a discussion a few weeks ago on creating a one-time ID, that 
would be useful code to use.
>> So why reinvent a session logging system when there doesn't appear to 
>> be a need?  So I've been asking around looking for why some of the 
>> more complex systems are used.  The biggest reason cited so far is 
>> "You can't make a nice looking login form"... hmmmm.... I think thats 
>> not entirely true.
>
> Actually it is true for Digest and Basic auth. You have no control on 
> that login form - you must use the Browser Built in. But remember it 
> is just like using Email login, or FTP login - it is up to the 
> application.
Thats not strictly true, ie;
1. go to page located behind https url,
2. page contains a username/password form entry fields
3. the onsubmit handler sends XMLHttpRequest with the appropriate 
auth-headers set using those form fields
>
> If you use cookies (like 99% of the most popular sites, including your 
> bank) - you have complete control.
provided you dont forget the "httponly" and the "secure" cookie 
attributes...!

cheers,
Mathew Robertson

From scottp at dd.com.au  Wed Sep 10 17:19:03 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:19:03 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <48C85F88.8000005@netratings.com.au>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
	<75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
	<48C85F88.8000005@netratings.com.au>
Message-ID: <A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>

On 11/09/2008, at 10:00 AM, Mathew Robertson wrote:
>>> It seems to be that every web browser on the planet know about  
>>> Basic Auth and most know about Digest Auth and Digest Auth seems  
>>> to be about secure as anything when used with SSL.
>>
>> Actually there is no point in using digest auth with SSL. Digest  
>> auth is useful for non-SSL connections.
>>
> sort of... Digest auth is still susceptible to replay-attack.  You  
> might as well simply hash your password, then send it over basic  
> auth -> it will give you close to the same level of security.

Absolutely. I was being a bit simplistic sorry. What I meant is that  
if you are using SSL, you don't need digest auth.

> Thats not strictly true, ie;
> 1. go to page located behind https url,
> 2. page contains a username/password form entry fields
> 3. the onsubmit handler sends XMLHttpRequest with the appropriate  
> auth-headers set using those form fields

Nice interesting solution. I will play with that. How well does that  
work on IE6?
Mind you I still would not use it, as it supports no safe logout and  
no ability to timeout or logout from the server end.

>> If you use cookies (like 99% of the most popular sites, including  
>> your bank) - you have complete control.
> provided you dont forget the "httponly" and the "secure" cookie  
> attributes...!

Yes. There is lots to do to secure the cookies. Uniqueness and un- 
guess-able only being part of the problem.

Scott


From pat at patspam.com  Wed Sep 10 17:51:47 2008
From: pat at patspam.com (Patrick Donelan)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:51:47 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
	<75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
	<48C85F88.8000005@netratings.com.au>
	<A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <42321ee20809101751r2b43377do37b637dbe0aa9948@mail.gmail.com>

 Hi Tim,

3. the onsubmit handler sends XMLHttpRequest with the appropriate
>> auth-headers set using those form fields
>>
>
> Nice interesting solution. I will play with that. How well does that work
> on IE6?
> Mind you I still would not use it, as it supports no safe logout and no
> ability to timeout or logout from the server end.
>

Putting the username and password into the URL as described is officially
unsupported <http://support.microsoft.com/kb/834489> in IE, and only works
(unofficially) in some versions.

You'll get a lot better mileage if you use the last two optional arguments
in the XmlHttpRequest open() method to specify username and password.
Otherwise you'll find that you can't override Auth headers that the browser
decides to set, at least for Basic Auth (I haven't tried it with Digest). I
explore some of this issues in my RESTful Web
Services<http://extjs.com/learn/Manual:RESTful_Web_Services#HTTP_Authentication>article
on the ExtJS wiki.

Really interested to see what you end up implementing, so keep us posted!

Cheers,

Patrick
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From daniel at rimspace.net  Wed Sep 10 17:55:49 2008
From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:55:49 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com> (Tim Hogard's
	message of "Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:56:36 +0000 (UTC)")
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
Message-ID: <87od2vpkkq.fsf@rimspace.net>

Tim Hogard <thogard at abnormal.com> writes:

> I'm about to start a new project that is somewhat largish in scope and
> part of the workflow design we have involves using forms to login.

That is, generally, a good plan: it allows you to make the login page
user friendly, in a way that browser auth dialogs are not.

It also allows you to implement "log out", a feature that is often
desirable[1] within the security model, and is generally more familiar
to end users.

> That in its self is about as earth shattering as the LHC but the
> discussion turned into what framework we intend to use and how we are
> going do the user authentication.  It seems to be that every web
> browser on the planet know about Basic Auth and most know about Digest
> Auth and Digest Auth seems to be about secure as anything when used
> with SSL.

As others noted, digest auth still has risks.


> So why reinvent a session logging system when there doesn't appear to
> be a need?

The ability to terminate the authorization from the server side in a
sane fashion.[2]

> So I've been asking around looking for why some of the more complex
> systems are used.  The biggest reason cited so far is "You can't make
> a nice looking login form"... hmmmm.... I think thats not entirely
> true.

It is entirely true, but perhaps a bit limited in view.


> Consider a standard web form that asks for user name & password.  It
> tends to have a target of a url but if thats a javascript that request
> http://$username:$pass at mysite/hidden.gif and then goes to the a page

This doesn't always work, as it can conflict with the security setup of
the browser or force user interaction.  As far as I recall from testing
this, some time ago.

Also of note: this technique was used for "phishish" attacks some time
ago, in the style:  http://www.microsoft.com at foo.bar.com/...

This means that using it in your software risks triggering defences
against the same.

> (that requires basic or digest auth) then all the user sees it the
> page and never sees the ugly browser based login window.  The
> advantages of this type of login scheme include the browser keeping
> track of the user credentials in as secure of a way as it can, users
> without javascript can still login (entering their details twice),
> pages can be deep bookmarked, scripts using wget and its clones can
> all get at any content, it works with users behind bad proxies where
> every request can come from a different IP address, scripts can be
> written in anything and static pages only need a core web server.

Seems reasonable to me.  Assuming the technical issues above are
resolved, supporting digest auth as well seems a decent plan.

You might want to have the base HTML contain a link to the secure
content, then draw the login form with JavaScript, so that
non-javascript users only get asked once for authentication.

> The disadvantages seem to be every framework doesn't want to work this
> way.

Most of the frameworks I have dealt with can be convinced to trust
Apache authentication which, as Scott notes, has significant advantages.

Regards,
        Daniel

Footnotes: 
[1]  Have you ever tried to work out exactly what you need to close to
     get rid of basic auth in some random web browser you never heard
     of?  I /never/ want to have to do that again.

[2]  Sending another 'auth required' and having the browser prompt the
     user is really, really user hostile.  Which sucks.



From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Wed Sep 10 18:28:49 2008
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:28:49 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <42321ee20809101751r2b43377do37b637dbe0aa9948@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>	<75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>	<48C85F88.8000005@netratings.com.au>	<A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>
	<42321ee20809101751r2b43377do37b637dbe0aa9948@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48C87451.6050305@netratings.com.au>


> You'll get a lot better mileage if you use the last two optional 
> arguments in the XmlHttpRequest open() method to specify username and 
> password. Otherwise you'll find that you can't override Auth headers 
> that the browser decides to set, at least for Basic Auth (I haven't 
> tried it with Digest). I explore some of this issues in my RESTful Web 
> Services 
> <http://extjs.com/learn/Manual:RESTful_Web_Services#HTTP_Authentication> 
> article on the ExtJS wiki.

We use a javascript soap client called "soapclient"... anyway, within 
the code it says:


  // Some WS implementations (i.e. BEA WebLogic Server 10.0 JAX-WS) 
don't support Challenge/Response
  // HTTP BASIC, so we send authorization headers in the first request
  xmlHttp.setRequestHeader("Authorization", "Basic " + 
SOAPClient._toBase64(SOAPClient.userName + ":" + SOAPClient.password));


So I guess this library has found that the two optional arguments dont 
always do the right thing, as the server code doesn't work correctly...

cheers,
Mathew
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From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Wed Sep 10 18:46:42 2008
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:46:42 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
	<75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
	<48C85F88.8000005@netratings.com.au>
	<A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <48C87882.5000600@netratings.com.au>


>> Thats not strictly true, ie;
>> 1. go to page located behind https url,
>> 2. page contains a username/password form entry fields
>> 3. the onsubmit handler sends XMLHttpRequest with the appropriate 
>> auth-headers set using those form fields
>
> Nice interesting solution. I will play with that. How well does that 
> work on IE6?
> Mind you I still would not use it, as it supports no safe logout and 
> no ability to timeout or logout from the server end.
AFAICR, we have had an issue - but my care factor for IE6 is pretty low, 
so I may not have noticed.


I dont think the "no logout" is strictly true - I think you could do the 
following:

on the first request it will send the user/pass; if you also send 
through a form token -> the server then initialises a "login time" field 
with the form token.

Subsequent requests you then send the token.  When there is a long delay 
from the last request (ie: you can validate against the token), you can 
send a "not authorized" response.  The browser then will retry 
indefinitely as it will show that ugly popup, but it wont send the token 
-> it would require the user to go back to the login page.  
Alternatively, you could send back an "authorized" response, but 
redirect back to the login page.

Thoughts?
Mathew



From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Wed Sep 10 18:47:02 2008
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:47:02 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
	<75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
	<48C85F88.8000005@netratings.com.au>
	<A951D4D6-3E5F-4CFC-A3F5-0F77BA6EA64E@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <48C87896.7030502@netratings.com.au>


>> Thats not strictly true, ie;
>> 1. go to page located behind https url,
>> 2. page contains a username/password form entry fields
>> 3. the onsubmit handler sends XMLHttpRequest with the appropriate 
>> auth-headers set using those form fields
>
> Nice interesting solution. I will play with that. How well does that 
> work on IE6?
> Mind you I still would not use it, as it supports no safe logout and 
> no ability to timeout or logout from the server end.
[resend]

AFAICR, we haven't had an issue - but my care factor for IE6 is pretty 
low, so I may not have noticed.


I dont think the "no logout" is strictly true - I think you could do the 
following:

on the first request it will send the user/pass; if you also send 
through a form token -> the server then initialises a "login time" field 
with the form token.

Subsequent requests you then send the token.  When there is a long delay 
from the last request (ie: you can validate against the token), you can 
send a "not authorized" response.  The browser then will retry 
indefinitely as it will show that ugly popup, but it wont send the token 
-> it would require the user to go back to the login page.  
Alternatively, you could send back an "authorized" response, but 
redirect back to the login page.

Thoughts?
Mathew



From wayland at wayland.id.au  Thu Sep 11 01:38:13 2008
From: wayland at wayland.id.au (Timothy S. Nelson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:38:13 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.10.0809111835580.12817@gwalcmai.nelson.org.au>

On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Tim Hogard wrote:

>
> Hi perl mongers,
>
> I'm about to start a new project that is somewhat largish in scope and part of the workflow design we have involves using forms to login.  That in its self is about as earth shattering as the LHC but the discussion turned into what framework we intend to use and how we are going do the user authentication.  It seems to be that every web browser on the planet know about Basic Auth and most know about Digest Auth and Digest Auth seems to be about secure as anything when used with SSL.  So why reinvent a session logging system when there doesn't appear to be a need?  So I've been asking around looking for why some of the more complex systems are used.  The biggest reason cited so far is "You can't make a nice looking login form"... hmmmm.... I think thats not entirely true.
>
> Consider a standard web form that asks for user name & password.  It tends to have a target of a
> url but if thats a javascript that request http://$username:$pass at mysite/hidden.gif and then
> goes to the a page (that requires basic or digest auth) then all the user sees it the page and never sees the ugly browser based login window.  The advantages of this type of login scheme include the browser keeping track of the user credentials in as secure of a way as it can, users without javascript can still login (entering their details twice), pages can be deep bookmarked,  scripts using wget and its clones can all get at any content, it works with users behind bad proxies where every request can come from a different IP address, scripts can be written in anything and static pages only need a core web server.
>
> The disadvantages seem to be every framework doesn't want to work this way.

http://computerstuff.jdarx.info/category/computerstuff/web-programming/http-authentication

 	I wrote a series of articles on HTTP Auth, and how to work around the 
problems.  See the link above.

 	I also made a series of Perl modules that worked with either HTTP Auth 
or Session Auth, and either CGI or mod_perl.  There was also a connection to a 
HTML::Mason framework.  But I've no idea whether these modules are secure or 
not.

 	:)


---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Name: Tim Nelson                 | Because the Creator is,        |
| E-mail: wayland at wayland.id.au    | I am                           |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----
Version 3.12
GCS d+++ s+: a- C++$ U+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+ N+ w--- V- 
PE(+) Y+>++ PGP->+++ R(+) !tv b++ DI++++ D G+ e++>++++ h! y-
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----


From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 11 02:53:37 2008
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:53:37 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] annopod
Message-ID: <48C8EAA1.3050606@perltraining.com.au>

G'day Everyone,

Last night I mentioned annopod to a few people, and said I'd follow-up on
list.  Well, here's the follow-up:

	http://search.cpan.org/dist/AnnoCPAN-Perldoc/annopod

It's essentially perldoc with AnnoCPAN annotations built-in, although you
need to download them first.  I haven't yet used it myself, but I've heard
good reports.

Cheerio,

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 11 04:44:09 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:44:09 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
Message-ID: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>

G'day folks,

At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  I couldn't remember
 all the details then, but here's what the Good Guys are selling (
http://www.thegoodguys.com.au/portal/page/portal/tggwebcms/corporate/products/details?groupId=64&productId=1325259&forwardToProduct=true&storeId=83
)  I was wrong about the screen size.

Brand
	Acer 		
Description
	ASPIRE 1 A150 Notebook 		
Processor
	Intel Atom 1.6GHz 		
RAM Size
	512MB 		
Hard Drive Size
	8GB SSD 		
Screen Size
	8.9" LED CrystalBrite 		
Disc Drive
	N/A 		
Operating System
	Linux 		
Additional Feature
	Webcam 		
Additional Feature
	Wifi 		


Catalogue price: $498.00 		
Cashback Amount*:$99.00 		
After Cashback Price:$399.00

Not bad.  Might have to give it a go.  ;)

All the best,

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au  Thu Sep 11 05:22:53 2008
From: sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au (Sisyphus)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:22:53 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacinta Richardson" <jarich at perltraining.com.au>
.
> At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  I couldn't 
> remember
> all the details then, but here's what the Good Guys are selling (
.
.
> Hard Drive Size
> 8GB SSD

8 gigs ? ... wow ..... ;-)

Seriously (assuming that one does, in fact, get at least a little more than 
8 gigs of storage) that looks to be quite inviting. What was the general 
feeling about this from you (knowledgeable) people ?

My usual supplier doesn't have a very high opinion of Acer. About 12 months 
ago I purchased a 2nd hand Acer laptop through her, and she was at great 
pains to point out that the particular machine I was purchasing dated from 
*before* Acer started making rubbish.

My old linux desktop is starting to get a little shaky, and I suspect that 
I'll soon be in the market for a new linux box (doesn't have to be 
desktop) - though I'll probably opt for a 64-bit architecture. Cheap and 
reliable is what I'll be looking for. Any advice welcome.

Cheers,
Rob


From scottp at dd.com.au  Thu Sep 11 05:28:26 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:28:26 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
Message-ID: <3A7CD91B-093A-40CB-98CD-E0E75FD5ABB8@dd.com.au>

I love my Asus EeePC linux - and it has 1GB Ram and 20GB SSD :-)

Scooter

On 11/09/2008, at 10:22 PM, Sisyphus wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacinta Richardson" <jarich at perltraining.com.au 
> >
> .
>> At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  I  
>> couldn't remember
>> all the details then, but here's what the Good Guys are selling (
> .
> .
>> Hard Drive Size
>> 8GB SSD
>
> 8 gigs ? ... wow ..... ;-)
>
> Seriously (assuming that one does, in fact, get at least a little  
> more than 8 gigs of storage) that looks to be quite inviting. What  
> was the general feeling about this from you (knowledgeable) people ?
>
> My usual supplier doesn't have a very high opinion of Acer. About 12  
> months ago I purchased a 2nd hand Acer laptop through her, and she  
> was at great pains to point out that the particular machine I was  
> purchasing dated from *before* Acer started making rubbish.
>
> My old linux desktop is starting to get a little shaky, and I  
> suspect that I'll soon be in the market for a new linux box (doesn't  
> have to be desktop) - though I'll probably opt for a 64-bit  
> architecture. Cheap and reliable is what I'll be looking for. Any  
> advice welcome.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm


From tjc at wintrmute.net  Thu Sep 11 05:31:21 2008
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:31:21 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
Message-ID: <20080911123121.GA25097@roseberry>

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:22:53PM +1000, Sisyphus wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacinta Richardson" 
> <jarich at perltraining.com.au>
> .
>> At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  I couldn't 
>> remember
>> all the details then, but here's what the Good Guys are selling (
> .
> .
>> Hard Drive Size
>> 8GB SSD
>
> 8 gigs ? ... wow ..... ;-)
>
> Seriously (assuming that one does, in fact, get at least a little more than 
> 8 gigs of storage) that looks to be quite inviting. What was the general 
> feeling about this from you (knowledgeable) people ?

No, it really is just 8GB.
However, the machine comes with two SD card slots. The idea is that you use one
(or both) of them for extra storage.. so whack another 32 GB of SDHC into a
slot and leave it, and that's 40GB total.
The default Linux distro on there can seamlessly integrate the new card into
your total storage. (I guess it is using LVM or something.. I'm not sure)

Personally I quite want either an eee or this acer (aa1).. I'm waiting until
October when they're releasing a slightly tweaked model with twice the battery
capacity and apparently some UMTS/HSDPA 3G data thing built-in.

tjc

-- 
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
(gpg --recv-key B1CCF88E)

From adrian at ash-blue.org  Thu Sep 11 15:34:01 2008
From: adrian at ash-blue.org (Adrian Masters)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:34:01 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <20080911123121.GA25097@roseberry>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
	<20080911123121.GA25097@roseberry>
Message-ID: <21527.203.58.120.11.1221172441.squirrel@ash-blue.org>

> Personally I quite want either an eee or this acer (aa1).. I'm waiting
> until
> October when they're releasing a slightly tweaked model with twice the
> battery
> capacity and apparently some UMTS/HSDPA 3G data thing built-in.

After having bought a Dell desktop replacement (and yes, it feels like I'm
lugging a desk on my back sometimes), I'm excited by the eeeeePC and the
Aspire.

While I like the power of several VMs at once (and virtualised a copy of
my old Fedora desktop and a DNS/DHCP/web server) and nice video, it is a
pain on the train.

Built in HSDPA looks useful, but I am waiting for reasonable wireless
plans to appear (probably to be dropped by flying porkers, I know).

In the meantime, I'm using PortableApps on an 8Gb USB key, on a work laptop.

> Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the
> falconer;
> Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the
> world

Love the sig - where is it from (it sounds familiar).

-- 
Adrian Masters
www.ash-blue.org


From peter at machell.net  Thu Sep 11 15:35:22 2008
From: peter at machell.net (Peter Machell)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:35:22 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <20080911123121.GA25097@roseberry>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
	<20080911123121.GA25097@roseberry>
Message-ID: <BC29EE61-8965-49D4-8FBC-C9B7C6EC1682@machell.net>

On 11/09/2008, at 10:31 PM, Toby Corkindale wrote:

> Personally I quite want either an eee or this acer (aa1).. I'm  
> waiting until
> October when they're releasing a slightly tweaked model with twice  
> the battery
> capacity and apparently some UMTS/HSDPA 3G data thing built-in.

I bought an EEE PC - the one with the 10" screen that comes with XP. I  
quickly loaded Ubuntu and managed to get everything working except the  
power saving stuff.

The hardware was great except for the stub of the right shift key,  
which prevented me from really being able to type on it.

 From what I can see of the Acer they have managed to put two large  
shift keys in. I can't tell if they have compromised anything else on  
the keyboard.

cheers,
Peter.

From ickphum at gmail.com  Thu Sep 11 15:51:32 2008
From: ickphum at gmail.com (Ian Macdonald)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:51:32 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <21527.203.58.120.11.1221172441.squirrel@ash-blue.org>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
	<20080911123121.GA25097@roseberry>
	<21527.203.58.120.11.1221172441.squirrel@ash-blue.org>
Message-ID: <38d47d520809111551h111298feu8e5a7a49f668906a@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>
> > Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the
> > falconer;
> > Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the
> > world
>
> Love the sig - where is it from (it sounds familiar).
>
>
It's the opening lines of WB Yeats' poem, The Second Coming. Check out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(poem) for a list of the
many, many places it's been ripped off.


-- 
Ian Macdonald
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From Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com  Thu Sep 11 16:35:27 2008
From: Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com (Ryan, Martin G)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:35:27 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
Message-ID: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F4AB1A0@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>

Hello all

> ... I'll soon be in the market for a new linux box (doesn't have to be
> desktop) ... Cheap and reliable is what I'll be looking for. Any advice welcome.

You can get a $450 (after cash back) genuine Toshiba laptop from here...

http://www.catchoftheday.com.au/

The "catch" is that you have to do it before 12 midday today - though this particular offer has come up at least twice before around a month to six weeks apart.  I've bought much stuff from them without issue so far.  I've just noted that there's a $30 delivery fee and the bag is antoher $20 bucks.  So depending on what you believe should be included, one could argue that its really $500 after cash back.  

Still, not bad for a well known brand.

Martin

Specs are:

Intel(r) Celeron Processor M550 2.0GHz, 533MHz FSB, 1MB L2 cache 
Mobile Intel(r) GL960 Express Chipset 
Genuine Windows Vista(r) Home Basic 
120GB 2.5" SATA HDD 
1GB DDR2 667 RAM - expandable to 2GB 
15.4" WXG A Active Matrix 200NIT (1280x800 resolution) Screen 
Titanium Silver Case Finish 
Intel(r) Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 
Integrated Realtek 802.11 b/g Wireless LAN 
Integrated Intel(r) 10/100Mbps TX Ethernet (Wired LAN) 
V.92 data + fax modem 
DVD Super Multi Dual / Double Layer Drive 
A4 Windows Vista(r) keyboard and Wide TouchPad(tm) pointing device 
Massive Inputs/Output Port Selection: 
Express card slot
RGB external VGA display 
3 x USB 2.0
V.92 data + fax modem
10/100Mbps Ethernet LAN
Headphone & microphone port
Bridge media Reader/ Writer slot (SD, MMC, Memory Stick/Memory Stick Pro, XD) 
Integrated microphone
Integrated Web Camera
Intel(r) High Definition Audio 
ACPI, PnP, VESA, DPMS, DDC, SM BIOS, PCI BIOS Support, Boot Device, TSETUP 
Integrated Web Camera 
6 cell Lithium-Ion battery 
75W worldwide AC adaptor 
Dimensions: 362mm(w) x 267.8mm(d) x 33.5/37.7mm(h) 
Weight: Approx 2.6kg 

From tjc at wintrmute.net  Thu Sep 11 17:41:04 2008
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (tjc at wintrmute.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:41:04 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F4AB1A0@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
	<589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F4AB1A0@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
Message-ID: <20080912004104.GB10752@roseberry>

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 09:35:27AM +1000, Ryan, Martin G wrote:
> Hello all
> 
> > ... I'll soon be in the market for a new linux box (doesn't have to be
> > desktop) ... Cheap and reliable is what I'll be looking for. Any advice welcome.
> 
> You can get a $450 (after cash back) genuine Toshiba laptop from here...
> 
> http://www.catchoftheday.com.au/
> 
> Dimensions: 362mm(w) x 267.8mm(d) x 33.5/37.7mm(h) 
> Weight: Approx 2.6kg 
I'm not saying it's a bad deal, but it's a fairly different machine to the
eeeeeee and the AA1.
The AA1 is 0.95 Kg, not 2.6Kg! (I think the eeeePC is 1.2 Kg, but it comes with
a bigger battery, and potentially bigger screen if you get the 10" model)

I've seen the aa1 going for $450ish online, which after the 99 cashback is
ridiculously cheap, IMO. I mean, $350 for a laptop that isn't a brick?
I just like the idea of having something I can tote around alongside a
paperback book, and not be too upset when it gets smashed or sat upon or lost
one day.

There are some cute mods people have been doing with some of the things too.

Toby

-- 
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
(gpg --recv-key B1CCF88E)

From daniel at rimspace.net  Thu Sep 11 18:00:40 2008
From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:00:40 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2> (Sisyphus's message
	of "Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:22:53 +1000")
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>
	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
Message-ID: <878wty89fr.fsf@rimspace.net>

"Sisyphus" <sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au> writes:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jacinta Richardson" <jarich at perltraining.com.au>
> .
>> At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  I
>> couldn't remember all the details then, but here's what the Good Guys
>> are selling (
> .
> .
>> Hard Drive Size
>> 8GB SSD
>
> 8 gigs ? ... wow ..... ;-)
>
> Seriously (assuming that one does, in fact, get at least a little more
> than 8 gigs of storage) that looks to be quite inviting. What was the
> general feeling about this from you (knowledgeable) people ?

No, it really is 8GB of slow, slow flash storage.  Don't expect anything
close to hard disk speeds, and put as much RAM into these machines as
you can to make up for it.

As Jacinta noted, two SDHC slots mean that you can add extra storage,
though, to provide a more comfortable environment.  LVM might well be
your friend here, or a separate /usr partition.

> My usual supplier doesn't have a very high opinion of Acer. About 12
> months ago I purchased a 2nd hand Acer laptop through her, and she was
> at great pains to point out that the particular machine I was
> purchasing dated from *before* Acer started making rubbish.

Acer, like Asus, is reasonably indifferent in my experience: they
manufacture equipment that targets the consumer market, so you get
reasonably solid quality, but not exceptional.

Their support is not as dire as some of the more traditional vendors,[1]
but nothing like good vendors.[2]

Also, you should kind of expect that when it goes wrong you are better
buying another, not repairing it -- the vendor kind of does.

Regards,
        Daniel

Footnotes: 
[1]  Toshiba, I am looking at you.

[2]  IBM/Lenovo or Dell, say, though both have wildly varying
     experiences for some people.


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 11 19:23:12 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:23:12 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <878wty89fr.fsf@rimspace.net>
References: <48C90489.5040400@perltraining.com.au>	<6F8E324D5B02425CA553D90EEDB48C8B@desktop2>
	<878wty89fr.fsf@rimspace.net>
Message-ID: <48C9D290.1070105@perltraining.com.au>

Daniel Pittman wrote:

>> Seriously (assuming that one does, in fact, get at least a little more
>> than 8 gigs of storage) that looks to be quite inviting. What was the
>> general feeling about this from you (knowledgeable) people ?
> 
> No, it really is 8GB of slow, slow flash storage.  Don't expect anything
> close to hard disk speeds, and put as much RAM into these machines as
> you can to make up for it.
> 
> As Jacinta noted, two SDHC slots mean that you can add extra storage,
> though, to provide a more comfortable environment.  LVM might well be
> your friend here, or a separate /usr partition.

Credit where it's due, it was Toby who pointed that out.  And yes, having only
SDHC storage and no optical drive really does limit what stuff you can do with
the computer.  On the other hand, it's smaller (and weighs less) than many of
the books I've carried around with me from time to time; and it's cheap and it's
a computer.

Note that the original 8GB will lose a fair chunk to the OS, so you will need to
add extra storage if you expect to store anything at all on the computer.

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au  Thu Sep 11 05:23:42 2008
From: leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au (leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:23:42 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D332DB@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>

And for those playing at home , the updated Eee's with the new 10"
screen are $687 at JB

Copied straignt from the ad
EeePC 10" Netbook
Intel Atom
1GB RAM
80GB HDD
802.11b/g/n
1.3M webcam
4.5 hr battery life
XP home ( maybe you can get a refund from M$ )

So 1" more screen, double the RAM and 72GB more disk, but it's a
spinner, not solid state.
The Aspire probably gets massive battery life from the SSD.

Leif Eriksen | R&D Engineer
The LHC is Satan's Stargate!!!
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org 
> [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org] 
> On Behalf Of Jacinta Richardson
> Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 9:44 PM
> To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
> 
> G'day folks,
> 
> At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  
> I couldn't remember  all the details then, but here's what 
> the Good Guys are selling (
> http://www.thegoodguys.com.au/portal/page/portal/tggwebcms/cor
> porate/products/details?groupId=64&productId=1325259&forwardTo
Product=true&storeId=83
> )  I was wrong about the screen size.
> 
> Brand
> 	Acer 		
> Description
> 	ASPIRE 1 A150 Notebook 		
> Processor
> 	Intel Atom 1.6GHz 		
> RAM Size
> 	512MB 		
> Hard Drive Size
> 	8GB SSD 		
> Screen Size
> 	8.9" LED CrystalBrite 		
> Disc Drive
> 	N/A 		
> Operating System
> 	Linux 		
> Additional Feature
> 	Webcam 		
> Additional Feature
> 	Wifi 		
> 
> 
> Catalogue price: $498.00 		
> Cashback Amount*:$99.00 		
> After Cashback Price:$399.00
> 
> Not bad.  Might have to give it a go.  ;)
> 
> All the best,
> 
> 	J
> 
> -- 
>    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
>     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
>     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
>   _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
>  (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> 

From toby.corkindale at rea-group.com  Mon Sep 15 00:55:16 2008
From: toby.corkindale at rea-group.com (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:55:16 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
References: <200809102256.m8AMuaQ2003940@v.abnormal.com>
	<75E8C1D5-1776-4979-8FAA-0F593E4ACEA9@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <48CE14E4.2030903@rea-group.com>

Scott Penrose wrote:
> Good morning Tim,
> 
> On 11/09/2008, at 8:56 AM, Tim Hogard wrote:
> 
>>
>> Hi perl mongers,
>>
>> I'm about to start a new project that is somewhat largish in scope and 
>> part of the workflow design we have involves using forms to login.  
>> That in its self is about as earth shattering as the LHC but the 
>> discussion turned into what framework we intend to use and how we are 
>> going do the user authentication.
> 
> Are you using Apache?
> 
> If YES - then there is only one answer. Use Apache authentication 
> modules. Under no circumstance use authentication modules built into 
> frameworks.
> 
> Why?
> 
> * Now you can use any framework.
> * You can mix frameworks, even using basic CGI in some places
> * You can authenticate static pages
> * It is faster
> * More reliable
> * FAR more secure

I don't think anyone has mentioned a downside so far..

Apache authentication handlers are harder to test.

It's still do-able, but you need to the apache test module to actually 
boot up a live apache daemon, make requests, etc..
Whereas if you're using a system that uses CGI 
parameters+cookies/session IDs, etc then you can test it with 
WWW::Mechanize or similar.

-Toby

-- 
Toby Corkindale
Software developer
w: www.rea-group.com
REA Group refers to realestate.com.au Ltd (ASX:REA)

Warning - This e-mail transmission may contain confidential information.
If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us
immediately on (61 3) 9897 1121 or by reply email to the sender. You
must destroy the e-mail immediately and not use, copy, distribute or
disclose the contents.

From scottp at dd.com.au  Mon Sep 15 02:25:39 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 19:25:39 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <48CE14E4.2030903@rea-group.com>
Message-ID: <19819285.1471221470739428.JavaMail.root@zimbra>

----- "Toby Corkindale" <toby.corkindale at rea-group.com> wrote:
> I don't think anyone has mentioned a downside so far..
> 
> Apache authentication handlers are harder to test.
> 
> It's still do-able, but you need to the apache test module to actually
> 
> boot up a live apache daemon, make requests, etc..
> Whereas if you're using a system that uses CGI 
> parameters+cookies/session IDs, etc then you can test it with 
> WWW::Mechanize or similar.

In practice it turns out the other way around.

* You get to test your scripts without authentication.
* If you want authentication you only need to set the user, not the password - much easier.

The argument that Apache modules are harder to test is true, but it is also true that it is harder to write modules than just straight scripts. The arguments are that the advantages outweight the problems.

There are two very strong reasons that it is worth a little extra pain on testing the module:

* This is security - don't take it lightly - keep it separate from the rest of your code
* There are so many modules already written it is rare that you have to write your own, but when you do they are usually fairly short and easy to test.

Testing also greatly benefits from this separation. One of the rules you learn early when doing test driven development is to reduce coupling between components. This has many benefits that I won't go into here. Write your modules that access the data without knowing any HTML - easy to test with simple data input and output. Then write your wrappers (CGI scripts, mod_perl, Catalyst, what ever) that do the HTML (you can even move the HTML itself into templates). Finally the one we have been talking about - keep your authentication completely separate. If at all possible even use a separate database.

When you finally want the end to end testing, then the Apache configuration also needs to be tested, so by all means test it through apache with one of the many good tools such as WWW::Mechanize.

Scott

From toby.corkindale at rea-group.com  Mon Sep 15 19:10:07 2008
From: toby.corkindale at rea-group.com (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:10:07 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <19819285.1471221470739428.JavaMail.root@zimbra>
References: <19819285.1471221470739428.JavaMail.root@zimbra>
Message-ID: <48CF157F.5000608@rea-group.com>

Scott Penrose wrote:
> ----- "Toby Corkindale" <toby.corkindale at rea-group.com> wrote:
>> I don't think anyone has mentioned a downside so far..
>>
>> Apache authentication handlers are harder to test.
>>
>> It's still do-able, but you need to the apache test module to actually
>>
>> boot up a live apache daemon, make requests, etc..
>> Whereas if you're using a system that uses CGI 
>> parameters+cookies/session IDs, etc then you can test it with 
>> WWW::Mechanize or similar.
> 
> In practice it turns out the other way around.
> 
> * You get to test your scripts without authentication.
> * If you want authentication you only need to set the user, not the password - much easier.

Is it a good thing that you get to test your scripts without authentication?
If, as you say, security is very important, then isn't it important for 
it to be well-integrated?
Sure, you want to test all your components individually, but you also 
want to test them as a whole.

> The argument that Apache modules are harder to test is true, but it is also true that it is harder to write modules than just straight scripts. The arguments are that the advantages outweight the problems.

Also, are you happy with writing code (or using code) that is shackled 
to Apache and mod_perl? What if you need to scale up, and run it on 
lighttpd, IIS, litespeed, nginx, zeus, etc?

> There are two very strong reasons that it is worth a little extra pain on testing the module:
> 
> * This is security - don't take it lightly - keep it separate from the rest of your code

See above re integration.

> * There are so many modules already written it is rare that you have to write your own, but when you do they are usually fairly short and easy to test.

But there are also modules available for non-mod-perl authentication as 
well..

> Testing also greatly benefits from this separation. One of the rules you learn early when doing test driven development is to reduce coupling between components. This has many benefits that I won't go into here. Write your modules that access the data without knowing any HTML - easy to test with simple data input and output. Then write your wrappers (CGI scripts, mod_perl, Catalyst, what ever) that do the HTML (you can even move the HTML itself into templates). Finally the one we have been talking about - keep your authentication completely separate. If at all possible even use a separate database.

I don't think this really applies to Apache-based authentication any 
differently than to non-apache-based auth though. I mean, just because 
Apache authentication is only available on Apache, and has to be tested 
using a more convoluted means, doesn't mean it's more secure than if you 
put effort into testing your other authentication.

-Toby

-- 
Toby Corkindale
Software developer
w: www.rea-group.com
REA Group refers to realestate.com.au Ltd (ASX:REA)

Warning - This e-mail transmission may contain confidential information.
If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us
immediately on (61 3) 9897 1121 or by reply email to the sender. You
must destroy the e-mail immediately and not use, copy, distribute or
disclose the contents.

From scottp at dd.com.au  Mon Sep 15 19:52:17 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:52:17 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Web auth meth
In-Reply-To: <48CF157F.5000608@rea-group.com>
References: <19819285.1471221470739428.JavaMail.root@zimbra>
	<48CF157F.5000608@rea-group.com>
Message-ID: <08B0F199-C0DA-4C72-A5C9-E2F5FA82D1B3@dd.com.au>

On 16/09/2008, at 12:10 PM, Toby Corkindale wrote:
> Also, are you happy with writing code (or using code) that is  
> shackled to Apache and mod_perl? What if you need to scale up, and  
> run it on lighttpd, IIS, litespeed, nginx, zeus, etc?

No. Don't do that :-)

Think of the mod_perl specific code just as triggers. This is the same  
for writing mod_perl applications. You build your code so that it can  
run independently. And test the same way. Then write the wrapper for  
it in mod_perl. You can do the same for CGI, and then you can (in  
theory) for all other servers.

The argument that says - "Do it yourself in your own code so it is  
portable" does not stand up for two reasons:

* If that argument was true, then you should also write your own web  
server and database and operating system. When do you stop.
* Just because you want to make it portable does not mean you couple  
it into the rest of your code.

But you are talking here about portability - writing authentication  
modules separately makes them not only more portable (well you can do  
anything, you can make it less or more or dependt, or coupled - really  
where you put it doesn't effect that much), but more importantly  
reusable.

You decided tomorrow that what this product needs is job tracking and  
wiki - and you work out that "Trac" is really the best tool for the  
job. You install it and realise - oohh Python - how am I going to  
authenticate?

You now have four choices:

1. You already used/wrote apache module - you have nothing to do.
2. You authenticate in perl and hack Trac to accept the same cookie  
and database
3. You have the user log into the two systems separately
4. You don't have a joined database and you have to register separately.

I am sick of going to places like zimbra.com where I have to have  
separate login & passwords for each of their Wiki (Media wiki), Job  
tracker (Bugzilla), and Form (PHP Forums).

> I don't think this really applies to Apache-based authentication any  
> differently than to non-apache-based auth though. I mean, just  
> because Apache authentication is only available on Apache, and has  
> to be tested using a more convoluted means, doesn't mean it's more  
> secure than if you put effort into testing your other authentication.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that. What I am talking about is  
separation of code. 99% of the PHP code I have to implement uses their  
own authentication system, built into the script. If one script misses  
that important line at the start "check_auth();" - it goes through un- 
authenticated (a bug I have many times fixed while integrating php  
applications).

You can of course use auth modules in frameworks like Catalyst. These  
are more secure than doing it in your own application, but you are  
still running it in the same process, memory space etc - it is really  
better to do authentication before that.

One final thing before summary - one of my integration tasks I had to  
do involved a Java application on Tomcat. I had to provide it  
authentication (single sign on to the existing products) and modify  
the output (filter) - both were easy thanks to doing it in mod_perl.

Summary:
* Separate security - completely from your code. Your code can't even  
execute unless security passes
* Separate authentication from your application to allow you to mix  
applications. Don't keep re-inventing the wheel by writing yet another  
job tracking system just so you can use your authentication.
* Write reusable and testable code - the authentication module should  
be potentially reusable by other bits of code, even in other languages.
* Avoid binding yourself to a system or language. If you write your  
code to be portable (e.g. Perl on Windows & Linux & Mac) you find that  
your code style and reliability improves. If you build your system  
(eg. authentication) to depend on perl - that makes it hard when you  
want to incorporate a good PHP, or Python module.

Scott

From Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com  Tue Sep 16 21:18:42 2008
From: Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com (Ryan, Martin G)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:18:42 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D332DB@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
References: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D332DB@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
Message-ID: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DC2FC@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>

Hi MPMers,

Having been gently chastised for daring to suggest an oh-so-yesteryear Toshy laptop (what a brick!) :-), I thought I'd redeem myself with this little find;

ASUS EEE PC 1000HD Windows XP Edition
RRP$699. 10" Screen, 80GB HDD, 6 Cell Battery
1GB RAM
80GB HDD
802.11b/g/n
1.3M webcam
4.5 hr battery life
XP home

Available - for the next 24 hours only - from http://www.catchoftheday.com.au/ for $498.
Free shipping if you pay via paypal.

Please note that I have no affiliation with COTD other than being a past happy customer.
..and for those getting a little bored with this off topic stuff - in futher I wont be suggesting anything else no mater what the price. (in this case I couldn't ignore the co-incidence of this coming up just after we were "talking" about it.)

Cheerie oh,
Martin
 

-----Original Message-----
From: melbourne-pm-bounces+martin.g.ryan=team.telstra.com at pm.org [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+martin.g.ryan=team.telstra.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au
Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 10:24 PM
To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire

And for those playing at home , the updated Eee's with the new 10"
screen are $687 at JB

Copied straignt from the ad
EeePC 10" Netbook
Intel Atom
1GB RAM
80GB HDD
802.11b/g/n
1.3M webcam
4.5 hr battery life
XP home ( maybe you can get a refund from M$ )

So 1" more screen, double the RAM and 72GB more disk, but it's a spinner, not solid state.
The Aspire probably gets massive battery life from the SSD.

Leif Eriksen | R&D Engineer
The LHC is Satan's Stargate!!!
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org
> [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org]
> On Behalf Of Jacinta Richardson
> Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 9:44 PM
> To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
> 
> G'day folks,
> 
> At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  
> I couldn't remember  all the details then, but here's what the Good 
> Guys are selling ( 
> http://www.thegoodguys.com.au/portal/page/portal/tggwebcms/cor
> porate/products/details?groupId=64&productId=1325259&forwardTo
Product=true&storeId=83
> )  I was wrong about the screen size.
> 
> Brand
> 	Acer 		
> Description
> 	ASPIRE 1 A150 Notebook 		
> Processor
> 	Intel Atom 1.6GHz 		
> RAM Size
> 	512MB 		
> Hard Drive Size
> 	8GB SSD 		
> Screen Size
> 	8.9" LED CrystalBrite 		
> Disc Drive
> 	N/A 		
> Operating System
> 	Linux 		
> Additional Feature
> 	Webcam 		
> Additional Feature
> 	Wifi 		
> 
> 
> Catalogue price: $498.00 		
> Cashback Amount*:$99.00 		
> After Cashback Price:$399.00
> 
> Not bad.  Might have to give it a go.  ;)
> 
> All the best,
> 
> 	J
> 
> -- 
>    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
>     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
>     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
>   _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
>  (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> 
_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From scottp at dd.com.au  Tue Sep 16 21:36:39 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:36:39 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DC2FC@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
Message-ID: <19663359.4581221626199667.JavaMail.root@zimbra>

I was sooooo tempted. Good price.

In the end I didn't because it is the hard disk version, and the 10" version is 1.3Kg (still VERY light) but the 901 I have is 20GB SSD.

BTW. If people have large fingers, the 1000 here also has a much larger keyboard.

Scott

----- "Martin G Ryan" <Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com> wrote:
> Hi MPMers,
> 
> Having been gently chastised for daring to suggest an oh-so-yesteryear
> Toshy laptop (what a brick!) :-), I thought I'd redeem myself with
> this little find;
> 
> ASUS EEE PC 1000HD Windows XP Edition
> RRP$699. 10" Screen, 80GB HDD, 6 Cell Battery
> 1GB RAM
> 80GB HDD
> 802.11b/g/n
> 1.3M webcam
> 4.5 hr battery life
> XP home
> 
> Available - for the next 24 hours only - from
> http://www.catchoftheday.com.au/ for $498.
> Free shipping if you pay via paypal.
> 
> Please note that I have no affiliation with COTD other than being a
> past happy customer.
> ..and for those getting a little bored with this off topic stuff - in
> futher I wont be suggesting anything else no mater what the price. (in
> this case I couldn't ignore the co-incidence of this coming up just
> after we were "talking" about it.)
> 
> Cheerie oh,
> Martin
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: melbourne-pm-bounces+martin.g.ryan=team.telstra.com at pm.org
> [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+martin.g.ryan=team.telstra.com at pm.org] On
> Behalf Of leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au
> Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 10:24 PM
> To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
> Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
> 
> And for those playing at home , the updated Eee's with the new 10"
> screen are $687 at JB
> 
> Copied straignt from the ad
> EeePC 10" Netbook
> Intel Atom
> 1GB RAM
> 80GB HDD
> 802.11b/g/n
> 1.3M webcam
> 4.5 hr battery life
> XP home ( maybe you can get a refund from M$ )
> 
> So 1" more screen, double the RAM and 72GB more disk, but it's a
> spinner, not solid state.
> The Aspire probably gets massive battery life from the SSD.
> 
> Leif Eriksen | R&D Engineer
> The LHC is Satan's Stargate!!!
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org
> > [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org]
> > On Behalf Of Jacinta Richardson
> > Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 9:44 PM
> > To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
> > Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
> > 
> > G'day folks,
> > 
> > At the pub last night some of us discussed the Acer Aspire.  
> > I couldn't remember  all the details then, but here's what the Good
> 
> > Guys are selling ( 
> > http://www.thegoodguys.com.au/portal/page/portal/tggwebcms/cor
> > porate/products/details?groupId=64&productId=1325259&forwardTo
> Product=true&storeId=83
> > )  I was wrong about the screen size.
> > 
> > Brand
> > 	Acer 		
> > Description
> > 	ASPIRE 1 A150 Notebook 		
> > Processor
> > 	Intel Atom 1.6GHz 		
> > RAM Size
> > 	512MB 		
> > Hard Drive Size
> > 	8GB SSD 		
> > Screen Size
> > 	8.9" LED CrystalBrite 		
> > Disc Drive
> > 	N/A 		
> > Operating System
> > 	Linux 		
> > Additional Feature
> > 	Webcam 		
> > Additional Feature
> > 	Wifi 		
> > 
> > 
> > Catalogue price: $498.00 		
> > Cashback Amount*:$99.00 		
> > After Cashback Price:$399.00
> > 
> > Not bad.  Might have to give it a go.  ;)
> > 
> > All the best,
> > 
> > 	J
> > 
> > -- 
> >    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson        
> |
> >     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia   
> |
> >     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001       
> |
> >   _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au
> |
> >  (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au  
> |
> > _______________________________________________
> > Melbourne-pm mailing list
> > Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From tjc at wintrmute.net  Tue Sep 16 22:02:39 2008
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:02:39 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DC2FC@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
References: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D332DB@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
	<589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DC2FC@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
Message-ID: <20080917050239.GB30588@roseberry>

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 02:18:42PM +1000, Ryan, Martin G wrote:
> Hi MPMers,
> 
> Having been gently chastised for daring to suggest an oh-so-yesteryear Toshy
> laptop (what a brick!) :-), I thought I'd redeem myself with this little
> find;

Seems like a good eal.. Let me know if you see 'em come up with the eee901 or
the acer aspire1 some time though :)

cheers,
Toby
-- 
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
(gpg --recv-key B1CCF88E)

From Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com  Tue Sep 16 23:00:37 2008
From: Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com (Ryan, Martin G)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:00:37 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Acer Aspire
In-Reply-To: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DC2FC@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
References: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D332DB@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
	<589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DC2FC@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
Message-ID: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DC588@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>

> in futher I wont be suggesting anything else no mater what the price. 

Well that undetaking lasted a long time... :-)

Had to point out just one last thing...

This machine has an Intel Dothan 353/900MHz processor - this compares with ... either 1.4 or 1.6Ghz advetosed else where (I'm not sure - just note that this one is relatively considerably slower)

From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Wed Sep 17 07:01:55 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:01:55 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
Message-ID: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>


       Where are the rules in this dog's breakfast called Perl??

       I think that it is a terrible language to learn. I am enjoying
learning Java instead. 

       Perl reminds me of when I studied VCE geography. I studied the
theories on why cities grow into shapes. There was the ring theory. Then
there was this smart alec theory that basically said "there are no rules at
all, the city just grows" and that's like Perl.

       It's bye to Perl. I already see far more logic in Java.

       John 



From tjc at wintrmute.net  Wed Sep 17 07:20:01 2008
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:20:01 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
Message-ID: <20080917142001.GC30588@roseberry>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:01:55AM +1000, John Thornton wrote:
> 
>        Where are the rules in this dog's breakfast called Perl??
> 
>        I think that it is a terrible language to learn. I am enjoying
> learning Java instead. 
> 
>        Perl reminds me of when I studied VCE geography. I studied the
> theories on why cities grow into shapes. There was the ring theory. Then
> there was this smart alec theory that basically said "there are no rules at
> all, the city just grows" and that's like Perl.
> 
>        It's bye to Perl. I already see far more logic in Java.

I see analogies between Perl, and the English language.

English is a hard language, full of contradictions and exceptions to rules.
It has borrowed from many other languages, wilfully stealing some of the best
bits, discarding the rest, and carelessly mutating over time.
Although hard to learn, English is still an efficient language to express
oneself in, and has been the choice of language for a great number of epic
works.

The same can be said for Perl.

Unfortunately, it really isn't helping us win any converts.
It's hard to get up and running on Windows; it doesn't integrate with web
servers terribly well. It is really difficult to embed in other programs
(compared to Python and .Net).
However, it really has taken some of the better aspects of many other
programing languages and integrated them. It has a massive library of
freely-available modules which do almost anything you can think of. You can
develop applications in Perl in no time at all. It's quite lightweight compared
to .net and java in terms of resource requirements.

-Toby

-- 
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
(gpg --recv-key B1CCF88E)

From benhare at gmail.com  Wed Sep 17 16:04:38 2008
From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:04:38 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
Message-ID: <822765280809171604m2a0ecec7oc0cf097e28a603c0@mail.gmail.com>

if i remember correctly you haven't worked as a developer before?
that's why you're stating this once again i guess :) because this has
been said a million times to the point where if you start this
discussion in the work place people will just walk away from you! most
people i know that use Perl don't like Java and vice versa. and all
the people that hate Perl seem to hate it for the same reasons the
people who like it like it. the most common reason for hating it seems
to be exactly what you just said - where are the rules? where is the
structure? i don't really see it as any skin off Perl's nose. off to
java for you!

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:01 AM, John Thornton
<jdthornton at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>       Where are the rules in this dog's breakfast called Perl??
>
>       I think that it is a terrible language to learn. I am enjoying
> learning Java instead.
>
>       Perl reminds me of when I studied VCE geography. I studied the
> theories on why cities grow into shapes. There was the ring theory. Then
> there was this smart alec theory that basically said "there are no rules at
> all, the city just grows" and that's like Perl.
>
>       It's bye to Perl. I already see far more logic in Java.
>
>       John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Wed Sep 17 16:12:10 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:12:10 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
Message-ID: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>


      Look, it wasn't a troll thing. Rather, it is the thing that people
have different thinking styles. I need to have rules and stuff so I am not
suited to Perl. Java, Python etc are more my go.

      John 

From adrian at ash-blue.org  Wed Sep 17 16:22:29 2008
From: adrian at ash-blue.org (Adrian Masters)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:22:29 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
Message-ID: <43898.203.58.120.11.1221693749.squirrel@ash-blue.org>

>        I think that it is a terrible language to learn. I am enjoying
> learning Java instead.

John, I'm sorry you feel this way, but it's important to focus on what you
want out of your experience. Picking out your first programming language
is much the same as picking your first car - everyone has their opinion.

I find that a good way to learn a programming language is to pick a
project and try to implement it in that language (for instance, if I
wanted to catalog all my things and search by author/band/title etc -
implement something that does that in the language I'm learning).

The other thing to remember is to start small. Try to remove any
extraneous set up or dependencies. You were trying to install a language &
web server onto a ported platform (Perl & Apache have their roots on Unix,
and have been ported across to Windows), which increases the complexity
when you just want to learn the language.

For example, if you're learning Java, try building a text based
application which runs locally, not something that depends on a web
interface and database backend.

The other suggestion is to get the basic language features under your belt:
. variables
. assignment & basic operations
. basic input/output
. control structures (loops, conditionals)
. data structures (arrays, hashes, structures)
. call/return/functions/procedures
. files

Then go into the real features of the language and investigate things like
GUIs, web integration and database integration.

BTW, I have been taught or have self learned around 15 distinct
programming languages, ignoring variants. (I do not profess to be an
expert in all of them).

I dare say that the Melbourne PM group would have had similar experiences
to me.

>        It's bye to Perl. I already see far more logic in Java.

I wish you well in your Java experience. When you need to do some massive
text manipulation, consider coming back to Perl for a visit, and try a
book like "Data Munging in Perl" from Manning (under
http://manning.com/catalog/perl/).

I'd also suggest the O'Reilly camel book
(http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596000271/) as a good starting place for
learning Perl, with plenty of O'Reilly books under
http://perl.oreilly.com/.

-- 
Adrian Masters
www.ash-blue.org


From Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com  Wed Sep 17 16:29:56 2008
From: Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com (Ryan, Martin G)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:29:56 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
Message-ID: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C0F5DCA14@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>

 
JT> ... people have different thinking styles. 

That's why perl tries hard to be reasonably good at many codding paradigms - its willing to "play ball" no matter what choice of approach you think is best for the problem.  Those ones with all the rules - they're the ones that force your mind to adapt to the language's way of doing things rather than the other way around. 

JT> I need to have rules and stuff ...

Maybe.  Maybe not.  I thought I did until I realized that what I was really after was the warm and fuzzy feeling that I was writing code the right way.  TMTOWTDI was frustrating - "there should be one obvious way!"  It wasn't until I read some of Larry's gems - I don't remember where - like, "don't pull faces when you read someone else's code" and "its ok we'll let you talk perl baby talk", that I come to realize that codding is more fun and efficient when you stop *always* looking for the right way.

Martin

From guy at alchemy.com.au  Wed Sep 17 16:35:08 2008
From: guy at alchemy.com.au (Guy Morton)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:35:08 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
Message-ID: <DF4439AC-60F1-416C-9636-2ADB7C39768F@alchemy.com.au>

Yes, perl is for poets and dreamers. :-)

I don't think anyone writes haikus in Java.

Guy


On 18/09/2008, at 9:12 AM, John Thornton wrote:

>
>      Look, it wasn't a troll thing. Rather, it is the thing that  
> people
> have different thinking styles. I need to have rules and stuff so I  
> am not
> suited to Perl. Java, Python etc are more my go.
>
>      John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm


From adrian.muhrer at rea-group.com  Wed Sep 17 17:37:53 2008
From: adrian.muhrer at rea-group.com (amuhrer)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:37:53 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
Message-ID: <200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>

well obviously the people on this list are all (most :) pretty keen on perl
I mean its my favorite language, but I don't consider it a good first language for most people

I have mentored a few first-time programmer in perl and John's reaction is pretty common
the informality and flexibilty that most of us love is exactly what frightens most noobs

you just get your head around doing something one way but the next bit of code
you read does the same thing a completely different way

for isn't only used for looping, sigils change with the context, some operators silently quote things
and turn undef into 'undef', hashes, arrays and lists can be shifted around from one to the other
the list goes on

perl is a great second or third language to learn, but its a scary first language






On Thursday 18 September 2008 09:12:10 John Thornton wrote:
> 
>       Look, it wasn't a troll thing. Rather, it is the thing that people
> have different thinking styles. I need to have rules and stuff so I am not
> suited to Perl. Java, Python etc are more my go.
> 
>       John 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> 



From leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au  Wed Sep 17 18:21:02 2008
From: leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au (leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:21:02 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D33533@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>

Have you read Perl Best Practices by Damian Conway ? There's 256 'rules'
in there, is that enough for you ?

Have you read Higher Order Perl by Mark Jason Dominus ? That will take
you from simple procedural and OO paradigms to the functional paradigm,
which will probably make you shake your head at Java and want to learn
Groovy.

Don't dismiss perl as having no rules. Of course it has, but you have to
look, many before you have found them and written books or articles or
PerlMonks nodes or usenet posts or ... Its out there, trust me.

Java is often cited as dumbing down programming, by enforcing rules _in_
the language. Perl free's you to do what you want. But there are
definite rules there, not in the language, but in the body of practice.

Leif Eriksen | R&D Engineer

Salmat BusinessForce
2 Military Road
Matraville NSW 2036 Australia

t +61 3 9217 5545
f +61 3 9217 5702
e leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au
w salmat.com.au

Salmat - the force in one to one communication

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org 
> [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org] 
> On Behalf Of John Thornton
> Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2008 9:12 AM
> To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
> 
> 
>       Look, it wasn't a troll thing. Rather, it is the thing 
> that people have different thinking styles. I need to have 
> rules and stuff so I am not suited to Perl. Java, Python etc 
> are more my go.
> 
>       John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> 

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Wed Sep 17 18:42:45 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:42:45 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
Message-ID: <48D1B215.3070101@perltraining.com.au>

G'day John,

Perl isn't always a terrible language to learn.  If you're already familiar with
programming principles, or if you're learning in a structured manner with
someone who can give you feedback and help each step of the way; it's an easy,
fun and beautiful language to learn.  At Perl Training Australia we get people
with a wide range of programming skills on our courses, and most of them really
enjoy the experience and pick up Perl pretty quickly.

On the other hand, if you're learning:
	* how to program in general
	* how to set up your system (Apache etc)
	* CGI programming requirements (not required for Perl at first)

AND Perl, on your own without an expert to hand, on a poorly documented system
(xampp) I can imagine that you might feel turned off.  This isn't really Perl's
fault.

I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying learning Java.  I imagine it was easier to
install than Apache, xammp and Perl together.  I imagine that you have a better
beginner's guide too.  Java's a fine language to learn on your own as a first
time language, although I strongly recommend you find a good Java user group
(even if it's not local) because I'm sure that you'll still hit problems and
snags that don't make sense.  In addition to a user group you may also find some
benefit in joining Java Junkies: http://www.javajunkies.org/

Once you've learned how to program in general, and you are more comfortable with
your system, I recommend having another look at Python and Perl.  All three
languages solve an almost equivalent problem space, they just have different
approaches.  I'm not saying that Perl should be your one true love when it comes
to programming.  But to be a better programmer, it's a good idea to have at
least some skill in multiple languages, just so you understand how those tools work.

If you expect to find Perl to still be hard to learn, Perl Training Australia
offers a 5% discount to Melbourne Perl Mongers who come on our courses.  ;)
Even if not, I highly recommend downloading our course notes and working through
them (http://perltraining.com.au/notes.html).  None of our exercises require
knowing anything about Apache, xampp or CGI programming.

All the best,

	Jacinta

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Wed Sep 17 19:12:57 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:12:57 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
Message-ID: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>


      Look, I am grateful t0 the pointers that people have given me here.
Maybe it is a matter of teaching to some extent; the perl lesson on VTC is
not that good whereas the Java lessons on VTC are taught by a professional
programmer - Arthur Griffith who has written so many books on how to program
that it's not funny. 

	But that being said, there is to me something awkward about Perl
that I don't like. Put it this way. In the first VTC lessons on Perl the
teacher says "this language may seem alien now but it will work out". My
honest response was "well, this IS alien and I don't see that changing". I
don't like that shebang line at all. That is ugly to me.  

 Maybe it's the browser formatting and I wouldn't like to do that with any
language. 

 Objectively Perl is probably a simpler language to learn than Java. But I
am starting to get my mind around the classes of Java, its brackets etc, in
a way that never happened with Perl. 

Perl seems to be a bit of an anarchic language to me - let's break the
rules. But as a beginner I really need rules.

John  

	

From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Wed Sep 17 19:16:04 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:16:04 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
Message-ID: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>


        	Come to think of it, here's my response to anyone who
doesn't like my posts. VTC are always asking for people to make new lessons.
The Perl one is a bit old on VTC.

            So any of you want to write a new Perl VTC lesson for the
virtual training company site? :) 

             Who knows? You might show me why Perl is better than Java . :)

       John 

From alfiejohn at gmail.com  Wed Sep 17 19:20:00 2008
From: alfiejohn at gmail.com (Alfie John)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:20:00 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
In-Reply-To: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
References: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
Message-ID: <bb79c8f30809171920na4619eeg98ddcd6b96b8129f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,

I don't see what is wrong with perlintro:

  http://search.cpan.org/~rgarcia/perl-5.10.0/pod/perlintro.pod

That kind of sums up Perl for a beginner. As to your hash-bang
comment. It's a Unix thing, i.e. not specific to Perl.

Alfie

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:16 PM, John Thornton
<jdthornton at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>                Come to think of it, here's my response to anyone who
> doesn't like my posts. VTC are always asking for people to make new lessons.
> The Perl one is a bit old on VTC.
>
>            So any of you want to write a new Perl VTC lesson for the
> virtual training company site? :)
>
>             Who knows? You might show me why Perl is better than Java . :)
>
>       John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From daniel at rimspace.net  Wed Sep 17 19:21:50 2008
From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:21:50 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2> (John Thornton's message
	of "Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:12:57 +1000")
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
Message-ID: <87fxnydwht.fsf@rimspace.net>

"John Thornton" <jdthornton at ozemail.com.au> writes:

> Look, I am grateful t0 the pointers that people have given me here.
> Maybe it is a matter of teaching to some extent; 

Almost certainly.

[...]

> I don't like that shebang line at all. That is ugly to me.

You presumably don't know that is a Unix convention more than 30 years
old, and nothing specific to Perl, which is why you are complaining
about it to us, right?

In a fashion similar to your issues with getting Apache running, your
ire seems to have fallen on Perl rather than the challenge of driving
third party software written in an entirely unrelated fashion.[1]

[...]

> Objectively Perl is probably a simpler language to learn than
> Java. But I am starting to get my mind around the classes of Java, its
> brackets etc, in a way that never happened with Perl.
>
> Perl seems to be a bit of an anarchic language to me - let's break the
> rules. But as a beginner I really need rules.

Sadly, I doubt you will have much joy with Java in the long term: what
you see as rules are really, truly, no more present there than in Perl.

You will still be able to fail disastrously to achieve your goals, to
spend significant effort on dramatically bad design, to pick poor
techniques, or to misunderstand the surrounding software environment.


I hope Java works out for you.

Regards,
        Daniel


Footnotes: 
[1]  Apache is, you know, written in C and all.


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Wed Sep 17 19:22:51 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:22:51 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
	<200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>
Message-ID: <48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>

amuhrer wrote:

> for isn't only used for looping

What other uses are there with "for"?

for(my $i = 0; $i < 10; $i++) {
	# this is looping
}

for my $value (@array) {   # I prefer foreach
	# this is looping
}

for my $value (1..10) {    # I prefer foreach
	# so is this
}

print for @array;  # so is this.

I can't think of any use of "for" that isn't looping related.

> sigils change with the context, 

I agree that this is initially confusing.  We explain it by saying that $ means
singular ie "this", "the" or "that", while @ and % are multiple, ie "these",
"those".

my $fish;     # this fish.
my @fruits;   # those fruits
my %facts;    # those facts

$fruits[0];   # _that_ fruit in position 0
$fact{Jane};  # Jane's fact, or _the_ fact about Jane

Most students pick this up on the first day but need a reminder or two every now
and then for the rest of the course.  Especially when we get to references and
they suddenly start trying to treat regular hashes as hash references.  ;)

> some
> operators silently quote things and turn undef into 'undef'

Do you have an example?  I have never seen undef turned into 'undef'.  That
sounds like a bug.  undef does get turned into '' or 0 (as appropriate to the
operator) when used in some scalar contexts, but they are not true values
whereas 'undef' would be.  So

my $c;
if($c > 5) {    # this coerces $c into 0 for the comparison (with warning)
}

if($c lt 'a') {  # this coerces $c into '' for the comparison (with warning)
}

if($c) {         # $c is false, so this expression is false
}

print "$c\n";    # $c gets coerced into '' (with warning)
$d = $c + 10;    # $c gets coerced into 0 (with warning)

if(defined $c) {  # $c is still undefined
}

> hashes, arrays
> and lists can be shifted around from one to the other

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.  Are you talking about the fact that
you can do this?

# Create hash, by assigning it to a list
my %days_in_month = ( January => 31, February => 28, March => 31, April => 30);

# Copy the keys and values into to this array for no good reason
my @silly_stuff = %days_in_month;

# Create a new hash and assign the keys and values from an array instead of a
# list
my %new_days_in_month = @silly_stuff;


Or are you referring to something else?  One certainly can't treat a hash like
an array or visa versa:

# strict errors:
$days_in_month[0];
$silly_stuff{January}

Perhaps you would elaborate?

> perl is a great second or third language to learn, but its a scary first
> language

It probably is.  But then learning a new skill - how to program - (especially if
you're doing it on your own) is always going to be scary, no matter what the
language.  There are certainly easier choices than Perl though.

All the best,

	Jacinta

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au  Wed Sep 17 19:29:12 2008
From: leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au (leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:29:12 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D3353E@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>

If you don't like vtc, try perlmeme.org

Leif Eriksen | R&D Engineer

Salmat BusinessForce
2 Military Road
Matraville NSW 2036 Australia

t +61 3 9217 5545
f +61 3 9217 5702
e leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au
w salmat.com.au

Salmat - the force in one to one communication

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org 
> [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+leif.eriksen=hpa.com.au at pm.org] 
> On Behalf Of John Thornton
> Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2008 12:16 PM
> To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
> 
> 
>         	Come to think of it, here's my response to 
> anyone who doesn't like my posts. VTC are always asking for 
> people to make new lessons.
> The Perl one is a bit old on VTC.
> 
>             So any of you want to write a new Perl VTC lesson 
> for the virtual training company site? :) 
> 
>              Who knows? You might show me why Perl is better 
> than Java . :)
> 
>        John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
> 

From deepfryed at gmail.com  Wed Sep 17 19:36:19 2008
From: deepfryed at gmail.com (deepfryed at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:36:19 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <48D1B215.3070101@perltraining.com.au>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
	<48D1B215.3070101@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <70b2ff110809171936v71fefc5ak3a9d4837152c238@mail.gmail.com>

Touch? Jacinta. Well said.

I don't like Perl because its concise and neither do I claim it to be
better than other languages. I like Perl because I find it more
malleable than most languages and comes with a HUGE set of useful
libraries on CPAN. It's also the first language I loved programming
in. Although ruby shares some of that love now, Perl is still my
programming language of choice.

I don't use Java because I like typing out my code instead of relying
on auto-generation and Java gives me RSI. But if you like Java and
love programming in it, I am happy for you. All that matters is that
you get the job done and at the end of the day love what you are
doing.

Cheers,
Bharanee





On 9/18/08, Jacinta Richardson <jarich at perltraining.com.au> wrote:
> G'day John,
>
> Perl isn't always a terrible language to learn.  If you're already familiar
> with
> programming principles, or if you're learning in a structured manner with
> someone who can give you feedback and help each step of the way; it's an
> easy,
> fun and beautiful language to learn.  At Perl Training Australia we get
> people
> with a wide range of programming skills on our courses, and most of them
> really
> enjoy the experience and pick up Perl pretty quickly.
>
> On the other hand, if you're learning:
> 	* how to program in general
> 	* how to set up your system (Apache etc)
> 	* CGI programming requirements (not required for Perl at first)
>
> AND Perl, on your own without an expert to hand, on a poorly documented
> system
> (xampp) I can imagine that you might feel turned off.  This isn't really
> Perl's
> fault.
>
> I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying learning Java.  I imagine it was
> easier to
> install than Apache, xammp and Perl together.  I imagine that you have a
> better
> beginner's guide too.  Java's a fine language to learn on your own as a
> first
> time language, although I strongly recommend you find a good Java user group
> (even if it's not local) because I'm sure that you'll still hit problems and
> snags that don't make sense.  In addition to a user group you may also find
> some
> benefit in joining Java Junkies: http://www.javajunkies.org/
>
> Once you've learned how to program in general, and you are more comfortable
> with
> your system, I recommend having another look at Python and Perl.  All three
> languages solve an almost equivalent problem space, they just have different
> approaches.  I'm not saying that Perl should be your one true love when it
> comes
> to programming.  But to be a better programmer, it's a good idea to have at
> least some skill in multiple languages, just so you understand how those
> tools work.
>
> If you expect to find Perl to still be hard to learn, Perl Training
> Australia
> offers a 5% discount to Melbourne Perl Mongers who come on our courses.  ;)
> Even if not, I highly recommend downloading our course notes and working
> through
> them (http://perltraining.com.au/notes.html).  None of our exercises require
> knowing anything about Apache, xampp or CGI programming.
>
> All the best,
>
> 	Jacinta
>
> --
>    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
>     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
>     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
>   _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
>  (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From benhare at gmail.com  Wed Sep 17 19:36:10 2008
From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:36:10 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
In-Reply-To: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
References: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
Message-ID: <822765280809171936x174db70fg4aef832a1614dede@mail.gmail.com>

there are already many Perl tutorials online and... camel book, camel
book, camel book! as everyone has said already.

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:16 PM, John Thornton
<jdthornton at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>                Come to think of it, here's my response to anyone who
> doesn't like my posts. VTC are always asking for people to make new lessons.
> The Perl one is a bit old on VTC.
>
>            So any of you want to write a new Perl VTC lesson for the
> virtual training company site? :)
>
>             Who knows? You might show me why Perl is better than Java . :)
>
>       John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From rick at measham.id.au  Wed Sep 17 20:04:03 2008
From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:04:03 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>	<200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>
	<48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <48D1C523.8030208@measham.id.au>

Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> I can't think of any use of "for" that isn't looping related.

I agree. Even the following is still looping, but it doesn't look or 
feel like it:

s/^\s+|\s$//, s/\s+/_/, s/FOO// for $scalar

Cheers!
Rick Measham
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From sgc294 at internode.on.net  Wed Sep 17 20:50:00 2008
From: sgc294 at internode.on.net (Andrew Dent)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:50:00 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
Message-ID: <48D1CFE8.7010305@internode.on.net>

G'day John

It appears to me that you gave the VTC Perl training course a chance, 
but didn't give the Perl language a chance. Many people suggested other 
ways of learning Perl instead of the VTC Perl Training you were doing.
Anyway, good luck with Java.
Be sure to make an investment in yourself and start buying Java books. I 
suggest starting with a book aimed at learning Java. Don't just rely 
only on the VTC Java training course. If you like Arthur Griffith, then 
support his work and buy some of his books. But don't just rely on one 
author, even for the same topic.
The internet is a great resource, but I have found it is not as good as 
having a book on your shelf you can pick up, feel, read at your 
pleasure, dwell on when working on a project or search through when 
stuck on a difficult problem. The more books you have the better off you 
will be.

Cheers

Andrew Dent

John Thornton wrote:
>       Look, I am grateful t0 the pointers that people have given me here.
> Maybe it is a matter of teaching to some extent; the perl lesson on VTC is
> not that good whereas the Java lessons on VTC are taught by a professional
> programmer - Arthur Griffith who has written so many books on how to program
> that it's not funny. 
>
> 	But that being said, there is to me something awkward about Perl
> that I don't like. Put it this way. In the first VTC lessons on Perl the
> teacher says "this language may seem alien now but it will work out". My
> honest response was "well, this IS alien and I don't see that changing". I
> don't like that shebang line at all. That is ugly to me.  
>
>  Maybe it's the browser formatting and I wouldn't like to do that with any
> language. 
>
>  Objectively Perl is probably a simpler language to learn than Java. But I
> am starting to get my mind around the classes of Java, its brackets etc, in
> a way that never happened with Perl. 
>
> Perl seems to be a bit of an anarchic language to me - let's break the
> rules. But as a beginner I really need rules.
>
> John  
>
> 	
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
>   

From sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au  Wed Sep 17 20:51:43 2008
From: sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au (Sisyphus)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:51:43 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
Message-ID: <2F2245C71D384C599E6DC121C2E11E46@desktop2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Thornton" <jdthornton at ozemail.com.au>
To: <melbourne-pm at pm.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all


> I don't like that shebang line at all.

The shebang line is not necessary - feel free to remove it. You don't need a 
shebang line to run perl programs on any platform that I'm aware of.

Perhaps Apache requires the shebang line (I don't know) ... but even if that 
is so, it's not a criticism of perl.

Cheers,
Rob 


From bianca at unisolve.com.au  Wed Sep 17 21:00:47 2008
From: bianca at unisolve.com.au (Bianca Taylor)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:00:47 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <2F2245C71D384C599E6DC121C2E11E46@desktop2>
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
	<2F2245C71D384C599E6DC121C2E11E46@desktop2>
Message-ID: <200809181400.47722.bianca@unisolve.com.au>

Honestly guys, don't mind me, but : Time to get back to work ???


On Thursday 18 September 2008 13:51, Sisyphus wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Thornton" <jdthornton at ozemail.com.au>
> To: <melbourne-pm at pm.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:12 PM
> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
>
> > I don't like that shebang line at all.
>
> The shebang line is not necessary - feel free to remove it. You don't need
> a shebang line to run perl programs on any platform that I'm aware of.
>
> Perhaps Apache requires the shebang line (I don't know) ... but even if
> that is so, it's not a criticism of perl.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

-- 
Unisolve Pty Ltd - 
Melbourne Australia
Ph +61 3 9568 2005

From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Wed Sep 17 21:28:24 2008
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:28:24 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] operator coercion [was:  just my opinion]
In-Reply-To: <48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>	<200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>
	<48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <48D1D8E8.9070900@netratings.com.au>


> my $c;
> if($c > 5) {    # this coerces $c into 0 for the comparison (with warning)
> }
>
> if($c lt 'a') {  # this coerces $c into '' for the comparison (with warning)
> }
>
> if($c) {         # $c is false, so this expression is false
> }
>   
Doesn't $c get coerced into a boolean (without warning), which is then 
evaluated as false?

ie: for reference, Contextual::Return specifically has a BOOL coercion 
operator.


mathew

From bianca at unisolve.com.au  Wed Sep 17 21:43:17 2008
From: bianca at unisolve.com.au (Bianca Taylor)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:43:17 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
Message-ID: <200809181443.17185.bianca@unisolve.com.au>

I was just kidding of course :)

There is however something said for the anarchic and caring Perl people.  

Regards 

Bianca

>Honestly guys, don't mind me, but : Time to get back to work ???


On Thursday 18 September 2008 13:51, Sisyphus wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Thornton" <jdthornton at ozemail.com.au>
> To: <melbourne-pm at pm.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:12 PM
> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
>
> > I don't like that shebang line at all.
>

From ts at meme.com.au  Wed Sep 17 22:17:47 2008
From: ts at meme.com.au (Tony Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:17:47 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <200809181443.17185.bianca@unisolve.com.au>
References: <200809181443.17185.bianca@unisolve.com.au>
Message-ID: <8E6B3E71-8BDD-4207-A8E1-200A57CA0EF3@meme.com.au>

On 18/09/2008, at 2:43 PM, Bianca Taylor wrote:

> I was just kidding of course :)
>
> There is however something said for the anarchic and caring Perl  
> people.

You mean the kind of people who can ruin your day with the likes of:

   # take care of empty values, don't print variable's name
   foreach $key (keys %inputs)
   {
     if (not defined($inputs{$key})) {
   	$inputs{$key} = "";
     }
   }

The problem is NEVER the language.
>
>> Honestly guys, don't mind me, but : Time to get back to work ???
>
You mean this isn't wurk?




Tony Smith
0405 499 718
TransForum Developer
http://www.transforum.net/

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From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 18 02:14:15 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:14:15 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <2F2245C71D384C599E6DC121C2E11E46@desktop2>
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
	<2F2245C71D384C599E6DC121C2E11E46@desktop2>
Message-ID: <48D21BE7.6060905@perltraining.com.au>

Sisyphus wrote:

>> I don't like that shebang line at all.
> 
> The shebang line is not necessary - feel free to remove it. You don't
> need a shebang line to run perl programs on any platform that I'm aware of.

Ah.  How are you running Perl?

If you're using a *nix-style platform and you set your program to be an
executable (chmod a+x hello.pl) and then call it directly ( ./hello.pl ) your
shell will fail to magically guess that it's supposed to be a Perl program.

Sure you can call it indirectly (perl hello.pl) but the shebang line is
absolutely necessary on *nix-style platforms (the Unixes, the BSDs, the Linuxes,
Apple OSX) otherwise.  This is cool because you can call your executable
something without an extension (eg cat) and run it:

	cat *.txt

without having to care what language it's written in or even whether it's a
compiled executable or an interpreted script.


The shebang line is also important for specifying options to Perl that you want
to ensure are used.  For example -w for warnings, -W for Warnings with Pride, -I
for a module path, -T for taint mode, -t for test taint mode.  Otherwise you
have to rely on the caller of your program to pass in the required switches, and
 they won't.

> Perhaps Apache requires the shebang line (I don't know) ... but even if
> that is so, it's not a criticism of perl.

The shebang line is the result of Perl coming from a background where file
extensions were unnecessary.  If you've ever had to try to convince Windows that
 MYOB data files (.pls) aren't WinAmp playlist files (also .pls) or anything
similar; you'd probably appreciate shebang lines more.

All the best,

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au  Thu Sep 18 02:57:59 2008
From: sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au (Sisyphus)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:57:59 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <48D21BE7.6060905@perltraining.com.au>
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
	<2F2245C71D384C599E6DC121C2E11E46@desktop2>
	<48D21BE7.6060905@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <A84299712D24460A8816BC0A92AFBFC9@desktop2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jacinta Richardson" <jarich at perltraining.com.au>
To: "Sisyphus" <sisyphus1 at optusnet.com.au>
Cc: <melbourne-pm at pm.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all


> Sisyphus wrote:
>
>>> I don't like that shebang line at all.
>>
>> The shebang line is not necessary - feel free to remove it. You don't
>> need a shebang line to run perl programs on any platform that I'm aware 
>> of.
>
> Ah.  How are you running Perl?
.
.
> Sure you can call it indirectly (perl hello.pl)

Yep - that's what I was envisaging. I wasn't recommending it - just pointing 
out that, if you don't like the shebang line, you can remove it. It does put 
an extra burden on the caller (as you pointed out) - but it can be done.

I do actually run my perl scripts that way (ie no shebang line) on my linux 
box at home - and it suits me fine.
Mostly when I run perl on my linux box I'm running 'perl Makefile.PL' to 
check how some module-or-other builds. The shebang line in the Makefile.PL 
(even if it exists) is generally not what I want anyway.

>  If you've ever had to try to convince Windows that
> MYOB data files (.pls) aren't WinAmp playlist files (also .pls) or 
> anything
> similar; you'd probably appreciate shebang lines more.
>

Either that, or appreciate Windows file associations less :-)

I haven't had to do that, btw. (I don't have any MYOB data files ... I don't 
think I've even got WinAmp.) But it *is* just a matter of changing the pls 
file association, isn't it ? Or are there some deeper "registry" 
ramifications ?

Cheers,
Rob


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 18 03:23:39 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:23:39 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <A84299712D24460A8816BC0A92AFBFC9@desktop2>
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
	<2F2245C71D384C599E6DC121C2E11E46@desktop2>
	<48D21BE7.6060905@perltraining.com.au>
	<A84299712D24460A8816BC0A92AFBFC9@desktop2>
Message-ID: <48D22C2B.8060107@perltraining.com.au>

Sisyphus wrote:

>>  If you've ever had to try to convince Windows that
>> MYOB data files (.pls) aren't WinAmp playlist files (also .pls) or
>> anything
>> similar; you'd probably appreciate shebang lines more.
>>
> 
> Either that, or appreciate Windows file associations less :-)
> 
> I haven't had to do that, btw. (I don't have any MYOB data files ... I
> don't think I've even got WinAmp.) But it *is* just a matter of changing
> the pls file association, isn't it ? Or are there some deeper "registry"
> ramifications ?

You absolutely can just change the pls file association and that will be fine
for when you double-click on the file and now open the right thing.  But the
problem is, that Windows tries really hard to pretend that the (very important)
file extensions don't exist.  So, what happens is that someone already using
WinAmp installs MYOB, creates some financial records and then later when looking
for those financial records cannot find them!  They look like music files, not
like MYOB files, so people ignore those icons looking for something else.  If
they do recognise the file based on filename, they double click it and get some
whinge from WinAmp and it makes them confused.

After they change the pls file association, they find that all of their play
lists, which they've set up for their enjoyment, now associate as MYOB files so
they can no longer double-click on them to achieve the right effect.  :(

All the best,

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From myfwhite at gmail.com  Thu Sep 18 03:35:23 2008
From: myfwhite at gmail.com (Myf White)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:35:23 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
In-Reply-To: <822765280809171936x174db70fg4aef832a1614dede@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
	<822765280809171936x174db70fg4aef832a1614dede@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14bb7600809180335s26964e7ale04b6c001980d871@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Ben Hare <benhare at gmail.com> wrote:

> there are already many Perl tutorials online and... camel book, camel
> book, camel book! as everyone has said already.
>
>
The Camel book is comprehensive, but I think of it as more a reference for
developers already familiar with the basics. The Llama book is a better one
for learning the basics. Another good introductory book which I used when I
was starting to learn Perl is Beginning Perl, which is available for free
online:
http://www.perl.org/books/beginning-perl/

John, it's great to hear that you're enjoying learning Java. I hope you come
back to Perl at a later time. Not to say "my language of choice is better",
but the reasons I like Perl are:

a) CPAN, which is an awesome resource. I had a problem the other day when
someone sent me a python script to work on which used a module which took me
15 minutes to track down through google...

b) it doesn't force you into a particular way of approaching a problem...
any way that you naturally think about a problem will translate into Perl
(as long as the way you think about it is logical - which is usually the
hard part). Because of this, you can spend the time that you're programming
thinking about the problem domain rather than the language. I find with
other languages, the hardest part is learning to think in the way that the
language forces you to. I find that as I learn more and read more of other
people's code, I can now think of lots of different ways of doing something,
whereas when I was beginning, I usually only had one way. TMTOWTDI means
that I'm always searching for an elusive "most elegant way of doing x"

c) A lot of common things are really easy in Perl ... regular expressions
are either not available or an absolute nightmare in the other languages
I've used. File i/o is simple and quick in perl - in java it's not hard but
it does take a lot more keystrokes. I like it that strings and integers and
booleans are not a pain to convert.

d) I like "do or die" - it can be a bit clumsy sometimes but I find it
neater than try catches Java. I also like that it's optional...Java wont
even compile if you don't catch thrown exceptions. Sometimes you want
something quick and dirty to do something once and you don't care that much
if it dies.

e) There's lots of sugary sweetness from other languages sprinkled over
everything.


Myf White
mailto:myfwhite at gmail.com

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.
~ Satchel Paige
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From tjc at wintrmute.net  Thu Sep 18 04:59:33 2008
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:59:33 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
	<200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>
	<48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <20080918115933.GA529@roseberry>

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:22:51PM +1000, Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> I agree that this is initially confusing.  We explain it by saying that $
> means singular ie "this", "the" or "that", while @ and % are multiple, ie
> "these", "those".
> 
> my $fish;     # this fish.
> my @fruits;   # those fruits
> my %facts;    # those facts
> 
> $fruits[0];   # _that_ fruit in position 0
> $fact{Jane};  # Jane's fact, or _the_ fact about Jane
[...]
> > some operators silently quote things and turn undef into 'undef'
> Do you have an example?  I have never seen undef turned into 'undef'.  That
> sounds like a bug.  undef does get turned into '' or 0 (as appropriate to the
> operator) when used in some scalar contexts, but they are not true values
> whereas 'undef' would be.  So

What would you expect the output of the following script to be?

--------
my %foo = (
    undef => 'null',
    foo   => 'bar',
    qux   => 'qaaz'
);
print join(' ', @foo{qw(undef foo qux)}) . "\n";
--------

Cheers,
Toby

-- 
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
(gpg --recv-key B1CCF88E)

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 18 05:04:24 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:04:24 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
In-Reply-To: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
References: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
Message-ID: <48D243C8.3010101@perltraining.com.au>

For those looking, you can find the Perl course on VTC at:

	http://www.vtc.com/products/Perl-Fundamentals-tutorials.htm

I initially had some problems as searching for "virtual training company perl
java" didn't yield anything useful.

Anyway the course is interesting.  I think it's a mistake to bring up the web
server so early, especially since many of the other lessons then don't even use
it!  I'd have restricted all of that part to the CGI chapter near the end of the
course.  In fact this could easily be fixed by moving those parts of the intro
downwards and leaving most of the rest of the course alone.

The trainer seems to be unaware of strict, and keeps harping on about using
single quotes because of the *huge* performance advantages *rolls eyes*.  I
suspect that he doesn't recommend using any modules at all until the second last
chapter (Intermediate Coding Techniques) which is problematic.  Otherwise, it
seems like a fine course - although I find that he speaks too slowly.  Some of
his examples are neat.

All the best,

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 18 16:23:35 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:23:35 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <20080918115933.GA529@roseberry>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>	<200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>	<48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
	<20080918115933.GA529@roseberry>
Message-ID: <48D2E2F7.3080803@perltraining.com.au>

Toby Corkindale wrote:

> What would you expect the output of the following script to be?
> 
> --------
> my %foo = (
>     undef => 'null',
>     foo   => 'bar',
>     qux   => 'qaaz'
> );
> print join(' ', @foo{qw(undef foo qux)}) . "\n";
> --------

Exactly what it is.  "null bar qaaz".  It doesn't make any sense to have an
undefined hash key (in fact Perl will complain under warnings if you try hard
enough (Use of uninitialized value in list assignment at - line 1.)).
Furthermore => is just like , *except* that it quotes any whole word to its
left.  Thus the first key there is 'undef' not a call to the function undef().
Use undef() if that's what you mean.

qw() is _quoted words_ *anything* you put inside them is treated just as a
sequence of characters (words) separated by spaces.  This includes variable
names, things which look like function calls, sequences of punctuation etc.

But okay, point taken.  If you put the characters "undef" in a place where Perl
will accept any bareword and treat it like a string, "undef" will also be
treated like a string.  This isn't any different from adding those letters to a
string yourself:

	print "It was undef";

In fact Perl gets this wrong with user defined subs as well.  For example:

my %opposites = (hello => 'goodbye', happy => 'sad', cold => 'warm');

print $opposites{hello};
print $opposites{awake};

sub hello {
	return "Awesome";
}

sub awake {
	return "hmmmmmm\n";
}

What gets printed?  "goodbye" of course (and an uninitialised warning if you
have warnings turned on).  Perl assumes that if you provide a bareword
consisting of only word characters for a hash lookup, that you intend that word
to be a key.  Always.

This is easily fixed by giving Perl more information.  Just as we should use
undef() instead of undef, we can use hello() or awake() up there to get the
desired effects.  "hello()" does not consist of only word characters, so Perl is
forced to look for a subroutine of that name.  (This is why $foo doesn't get
treated literally as well).

All the best,

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From akievsky at yahoo.com.au  Thu Sep 18 18:36:18 2008
From: akievsky at yahoo.com.au (Andres Kievsky)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:36:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
Message-ID: <578836.88539.qm@web63201.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> The problem is NEVER the language.

I am not so sure I'd put that as an absolute statement. There are features that some languages/communities have that make life easier (think OOP, AOP, closures, continuations, macros, duck typing, garbage collection, large libraries, etc) and help you solve problems that you can't as easily solve in other languages. It seems to me that, for a fixed problem, there are certain languages that are more or less fit to solve it, and this suggests that some programming languages are more problematic than others (when it comes to implement a particular solution).

I do absolutely agree that, in real-world projects, "human problems" are much more common that "language problems."

- Andres N. Kievsky


      Make the switch to the world&#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
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From Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com  Thu Sep 18 21:11:06 2008
From: Martin.G.Ryan at team.telstra.com (Ryan, Martin G)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:11:06 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Blast from the past (was Re:  Apache2::Filter::RE)
In-Reply-To: <58D55F67-0F6D-4F4E-A7AB-D27B5E11F88C@dd.com.au>
References: <4EF63C9B-8DC4-4F0C-BD0A-216303C191C9@dd.com.au>
	<a3ada2d10802092155t415ce338s164616cbe7d879a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<343CB7B8-2747-467B-9D5B-421190860BEE@dd.com.au>
	<70b2ff110802092224k4dfb8997kd804d92aa8a239b0@mail.gmail.com><EC4C7688-C0ED-408D-8F8D-69E80D16A38F@dd.com.au><47AF8E9D.1090802@rea-group.com><6394E535-4D75-4917-AD54-5CC698422EB9@dd.com.au>
	<C2FADA97-F1E9-48B7-ACDA-6FA5D50C87BF@dd.com.au>
	<91E76D04F87FF440986BC1CF6FD84AE8047A1CFE@WSMSG2153V.srv.dir.telstra.com>
	<58D55F67-0F6D-4F4E-A7AB-D27B5E11F88C@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <589EE331794E0B4DA62A9ADE89BCB4057C11D31CED@WSMSG3103V.srv.dir.telstra.com>

Hello all,

> From: Scott Penrose [mailto:scottp at dd.com.au] 
> Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:10 PM
> ... <see below>
> Remind me and I will tell you how it goes :-) 

Amazing what you find wondering around in an old MPM folder, eh? :^)
So Scott... Consider yourself reminded - i.e. "do tell"

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Penrose [mailto:scottp at dd.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:10 PM
To: Ryan, Martin G
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Apache2::Filter::RE


On 11/02/2008, at 11:47 AM, Ryan, Martin G wrote:

>> There is no need to use a reverse-proxy to cache results from Apache.
>
> I presume you mean "no point using a reverse-proxy if you're thinking
> that's going to save apache from having to continually re-apply the
> filter." - yes?
>
> I've seen large sites that use commercial file caches as reverse  
> proxies
> to reduce the load on apache content servers - not the load of  
> applying
> filters and whatnot - just the load of having to actually put the
> content on the cable.
>
> Is this a sane thing to do?

It can be. A proxy is often used to increase performance in place of  
caching. This is when it should not really be done. It is a matter of  
deciding where your caching should be done: Browser, ISP/Local/Company  
Proxy, Server Proxy, Apache, Application Cache, None - all have  
reason. The great advantage of using Apache to cache is that you get  
all the advantages of Applicaiton Cache (local control to expire it  
etc). Of course ideally we provide correct headers so that the Browser  
and ISP/Local/Company proxy can cache the objects.

However. The reality is that Apache can be slow. If it wasn't we would  
not need excellent projects such as LigHTTPD.

Solutions that have been used in projects include moving static  
content across to an alternative Apache instance or even physical  
machine, or caching the entire system (proxy - what people often call  
a reverse proxy - but it i just a cache).

Another common solution to the static problem is to use a CDN - Common  
Delivery Network. Basically this is just farming off your static work  
to someone else. But - the big advantages are that those producing a  
CDN network often put effort into getting geographically (or rather  
internet-agraphical) close mirrors of the servers. So when you click  
on www.apple.com - it is faster because the static content (a large  
portion of the code - images, css, js) is on a faster link.

I have just started doing this myself, sort of. Getting hosting  
overseas is expensive - too expensive for me. This is because I have  
unusual requirements, and need to run a large number of virtual  
machines running unusual system configurations. A 512K link is not too  
expensive - much cheaper than I can get a single machine elsewhere -  
and I can now run 100s of machines. However any large content is  
really effected over such a link. So I am trying out moving static  
content (not all static, but at least the css, js and associated  
images) to an ISP - and in this case an ISP that has a cheap service,  
as now I need nothing special - just a static web server and remote  
FTP access.

Remind me and I will tell you how it goes :-)

Scott

From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Thu Sep 18 21:33:17 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:33:17 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more thoughts on computer programming
Message-ID: <8DDB10E684264B85A6C4F1F7BD63FAF3@home2>


       Hello
            I guess that I was not totally fair to Perl in another respect:

            There is no doubt to me that computer programming and computer
science has generic benefits of fostering clearer, more thorough thinking.
Such an enterprise is of course not new; Aristotle encouraged arithmetic to
help people's mental alertness. Thus the language in this regard does not
matter. It can be Perl, Java or even FORTRAN. I can already see the benefits
in everyday life from the little computer programming that I have done. I
leave no stone unturned in everyday life. If someone uses an adjective like
"relentless" then, rather like a boolean operator needing to compare
numbers, I ask "by what scale is it relentless??" :)

            In my opinion computer science is greatly underrated by society
as a generic boon for sharper thinking. It may say something about the
extroversion of society that communication such as law degrees are valued so
much in this regard; yet more introverted activities like programming are
not valued. From my experience law graduates are the WORST exponents of
clear thinking!! For instance this year I had a dispute with an academic who
teaches law at Melbourne Uni. I don't study law. I never have and never
will. I don't study at Melbourne University. But I was doing some
adjudication for school debates and this clown sent me the stupidest
expulsion letter to boot me from Debaters Association of Victoria. I have
seen better arguments from people in year 8. The guy is called Wayne Jocic
and I wrote back to him and said "if that's all a law degree does then good
riddance; you are a creep". 

           If clear thinking is a tennis match then computer science beats
any law faculty 6-0 6-0 6-0. No contest. 

            John       

From leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au  Thu Sep 18 22:50:33 2008
From: leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au (leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:50:33 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] another player in the Eee,
	Aspire world - the Dell mini9
Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D335FB@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>

16G SSD drive, no linux option, just XP...$599
 
http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-insp
iron-9?c=au
<http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-ins
piron-9?c=au&cs=audhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&dgc=EM&cid=33187&lid=783209>
&cs=audhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=mn&dgc=EM&cid=33187&lid=783209
 
note outlook may munge the URL into 2 lines - tell Bill at M$
<mailto:Bill at M$>  about it
 

Leif Eriksen | R&D Engineer

Salmat BusinessForce
2 Military Road
Matraville NSW 2036 Australia

t +61 3 9217 5545
f +61 3 9217 5702
e leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au
w salmat.com.au

Salmat - the force in one to one communication

 
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From wayland at wayland.id.au  Fri Sep 19 23:54:42 2008
From: wayland at wayland.id.au (Timothy S. Nelson)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:54:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks to all
In-Reply-To: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
References: <5374C7E05CAF4365BF0AB5AE376CC324@home2>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.10.0809201645480.11070@gwalcmai.nelson.org.au>

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, John Thornton wrote:

> Objectively Perl is probably a simpler language to learn than Java. But I
> am starting to get my mind around the classes of Java, its brackets etc, in
> a way that never happened with Perl.
>
> Perl seems to be a bit of an anarchic language to me - let's break the
> rules. But as a beginner I really need rules.

 	John, I think you've made the right decision.  I hate using Java, but 
I think it's a good idea at your stage.  But there's something I hope you will
remember; nearly every programming language has a way of doing things.  If you 
don't get that way of doing things in your head (which you obviously are 
managing in Java) then you spend a lot of time fighting the language.  But 
sometimes the way the language wants to do things is not the best way of 
achieving the task.  That's why sometimes a FORTRAN programmer (FORTRAN is 
noted for its speed) will not come up with as quick a solution as an APL 
programmer (APL makes sorting easy).  I'd say that learning Java is the right 
choice for you at the moment, as it will give you the hang of two basic 
paradigms; Object-oriented, and Procedural.  But I think that once you have 
the hang of those, it would be a good idea to try a Functional language, after 
reading http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html (which is about why Lisp is great 
:) ).

 	Then, after you have the hang of a number of these paradigms, and you 
have the rules of good programming in each embedded in your mind, *then* give 
Perl a try.

 	I use Perl not because it has no rules, but because I have a pretty 
good idea of what rules I think are good, and which ones I think are bad, and 
Perl is the only language I know where I can use most of the rules I think are 
good; other languages prevent me from doing this.

 	:)


---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Name: Tim Nelson                 | Because the Creator is,        |
| E-mail: wayland at wayland.id.au    | I am                           |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----
Version 3.12
GCS d+++ s+: a- C++$ U+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+ N+ w--- V- 
PE(+) Y+>++ PGP->+++ R(+) !tv b++ DI++++ D G+ e++>++++ h! y-
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----


From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Sat Sep 20 04:17:14 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:17:14 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
Message-ID: <472512D29CD5473384EDE2C4B3AD5915@home2>


      Hello
           I am a uni graduate [BA in maths/philosophy...yeah I know I
wasted my youth :)] and at the moment I am doing a Dip of Graphics Design by
distance mode. It's a pretty tough course actually: photoshop, Indesign etc.
I am looking to work in the graphic design area in the future. Anyway, I am
enjoying getting into programming so much, especially Java and Ruby, that I
am open to doing a computer science/programming course in the future. Anyone
know of any that are aimed at people with no programming knowledge or close
to it? I would prefer TAFE or off campus. I do not understand the
postgraduate fee system. I want something hands on where I get to program.
Sure, you have to understand something about what an object is to do OOP.
Fine. But I mean I don't need the history of programming, socio postmodern
Derrida critique of the programming ethos etc etc [OK that's a touch
sarcastic]. 

      I really have to make a big decision in the near future with where I
go with this graphics stuff. One option is to complement it with some web
programming/set up stuff which would be where programming could come in.
Other options are to spend my money instead on more software and even at
student prices software in graphics costs a bit! I have Indesign,
Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver. They are HUGE programs. If
anyone knows of any good Dreamweaver/web courses that would be good too.

     Anyway, hope that the Storm can come back. [I am a Melbournite]

     John      

From guy at alchemy.com.au  Sat Sep 20 07:47:28 2008
From: guy at alchemy.com.au (Guy Morton)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:47:28 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
In-Reply-To: <472512D29CD5473384EDE2C4B3AD5915@home2>
References: <472512D29CD5473384EDE2C4B3AD5915@home2>
Message-ID: <471FDFD6-152F-4FAE-9C81-4218BBFD241D@alchemy.com.au>

Forget Dreamweaver. Learn Flex (or SVG+Javascript, or preferably both).

Get an iPhone and write an app for it in SVG+Javascript..

Guy


On 20/09/2008, at 9:17 PM, John Thornton wrote:

>
>      Hello
>           I am a uni graduate [BA in maths/philosophy...yeah I know I
> wasted my youth :)] and at the moment I am doing a Dip of Graphics  
> Design by
> distance mode. It's a pretty tough course actually: photoshop,  
> Indesign etc.
> I am looking to work in the graphic design area in the future.  
> Anyway, I am
> enjoying getting into programming so much, especially Java and Ruby,  
> that I
> am open to doing a computer science/programming course in the  
> future. Anyone
> know of any that are aimed at people with no programming knowledge  
> or close
> to it? I would prefer TAFE or off campus. I do not understand the
> postgraduate fee system. I want something hands on where I get to  
> program.
> Sure, you have to understand something about what an object is to do  
> OOP.
> Fine. But I mean I don't need the history of programming, socio  
> postmodern
> Derrida critique of the programming ethos etc etc [OK that's a touch
> sarcastic].
>
>      I really have to make a big decision in the near future with  
> where I
> go with this graphics stuff. One option is to complement it with  
> some web
> programming/set up stuff which would be where programming could come  
> in.
> Other options are to spend my money instead on more software and  
> even at
> student prices software in graphics costs a bit! I have Indesign,
> Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver. They are HUGE  
> programs. If
> anyone knows of any good Dreamweaver/web courses that would be good  
> too.
>
>     Anyway, hope that the Storm can come back. [I am a Melbournite]
>
>     John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm


From scottp at dd.com.au  Sun Sep 21 17:09:18 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:09:18 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <70b2ff110809171936v71fefc5ak3a9d4837152c238@mail.gmail.com>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
	<48D1B215.3070101@perltraining.com.au>
	<70b2ff110809171936v71fefc5ak3a9d4837152c238@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5692B82-4444-44EA-A93E-EB71BFC0FEB8@dd.com.au>

I can't remember who said it but I remember the comment but I liked it.

* Perl is not easy to learn
* It is not the best language to learn first
* It is not the best language to learn second
* or even third
* But once you learnt it you will not want to use anything else.

Another comment I know made by Damian Conway - "It fits into my brain".

Scott

From scottp at dd.com.au  Sun Sep 21 17:10:35 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:10:35 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl on VTC
In-Reply-To: <48D243C8.3010101@perltraining.com.au>
References: <F3C6273D148541FEA965E967BEBB20F1@home2>
	<48D243C8.3010101@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <E5E7509C-5C97-420B-8744-E428F4761F2A@dd.com.au>

It sounds silly but although we already have great tutorials, writing  
new ones shows interest in the language. It is marketing need rather  
than any other.

Scott

From nathanb at finite.com.au  Sun Sep 21 18:53:12 2008
From: nathanb at finite.com.au (Nathan Bentley)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:53:12 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
Message-ID: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FB@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>

Hi John

As a recruiter I can tell you where the money is at the moment and
speculate on the future if cash is your priority?

Given that you likely have a creative bent since you're doing design Guy
is spot on in his recommendation for Flash and the like. 

The development languages like Perl, C's and C.net's might not be as
useful to you from a career point of view as
AS3/Flash/Flex/AIR/Silverlight or Jscript/AJAX since they're the hot
topic with growing Internet trends where media studies also put options
on the table.

If you want to play it safe, ASP.net might give you the best of both
worlds? PHP plays with the creative languages more and more and there is
a lot of community driven resource to help you learn it also.

PHP is getting a bit more portable these days too, although Java is
still the king of the hill for growth sectors like portable media.

In terms of training, I know of a couple of places that can knock you
out a quick course, but, as with all development you're going to need to
get a basic introduction and then work the language yourself to learn
it. You'll end up paying huge amounts of coin for very little practical
knowledge if you rely on training institutions alone.

What's that quote from the Matrix? "Knowing the path isn't walking the
path"?   

A crowd named dynamicwebtraining.com.au had a good rep in Sydney when I
was in the industry, they can offer a fair bit, but get your wallet
ready.

Good luck with it!

Cheers
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org
[mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Guy Morton
Sent: Sunday, 21 September 2008 12:47 AM
To: John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Forget Dreamweaver. Learn Flex (or SVG+Javascript, or preferably both).

Get an iPhone and write an app for it in SVG+Javascript..

Guy


On 20/09/2008, at 9:17 PM, John Thornton wrote:

>
>      Hello
>           I am a uni graduate [BA in maths/philosophy...yeah I know I
> wasted my youth :)] and at the moment I am doing a Dip of Graphics  
> Design by
> distance mode. It's a pretty tough course actually: photoshop,  
> Indesign etc.
> I am looking to work in the graphic design area in the future.  
> Anyway, I am
> enjoying getting into programming so much, especially Java and Ruby,  
> that I
> am open to doing a computer science/programming course in the  
> future. Anyone
> know of any that are aimed at people with no programming knowledge  
> or close
> to it? I would prefer TAFE or off campus. I do not understand the
> postgraduate fee system. I want something hands on where I get to  
> program.
> Sure, you have to understand something about what an object is to do  
> OOP.
> Fine. But I mean I don't need the history of programming, socio  
> postmodern
> Derrida critique of the programming ethos etc etc [OK that's a touch
> sarcastic].
>
>      I really have to make a big decision in the near future with  
> where I
> go with this graphics stuff. One option is to complement it with  
> some web
> programming/set up stuff which would be where programming could come  
> in.
> Other options are to spend my money instead on more software and  
> even at
> student prices software in graphics costs a bit! I have Indesign,
> Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver. They are HUGE  
> programs. If
> anyone knows of any good Dreamweaver/web courses that would be good  
> too.
>
>     Anyway, hope that the Storm can come back. [I am a Melbournite]
>
>     John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From alfiejohn at gmail.com  Sun Sep 21 19:12:31 2008
From: alfiejohn at gmail.com (Alfie John)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:12:31 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <E5692B82-4444-44EA-A93E-EB71BFC0FEB8@dd.com.au>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
	<48D1B215.3070101@perltraining.com.au>
	<70b2ff110809171936v71fefc5ak3a9d4837152c238@mail.gmail.com>
	<E5692B82-4444-44EA-A93E-EB71BFC0FEB8@dd.com.au>
Message-ID: <bb79c8f30809211912q5ef07232g92cbf2008859255@mail.gmail.com>

I think Deborah's talk on "How to teach Perl" mentioned:

  * Perl is a hard language to teach, let alone learn
  * Perl is not a good 1st, 2nd, 3rd... language to learn
  * Perl is a good 10th language to learn

In other words, learn something else as your first programming
language. Learn other languages. Get good at how programming works.
Grok idioms from other languages. Take the good from all. Then... be
enlightened with Perl.

Alfie

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Scott Penrose <scottp at dd.com.au> wrote:
> I can't remember who said it but I remember the comment but I liked it.
>
> * Perl is not easy to learn
> * It is not the best language to learn first
> * It is not the best language to learn second
> * or even third
> * But once you learnt it you will not want to use anything else.
>
> Another comment I know made by Damian Conway - "It fits into my brain".
>
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Sun Sep 21 19:27:07 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:27:07 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
In-Reply-To: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FB@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
References: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FB@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
Message-ID: <95775BC0D96E434FAE46CB685456F83B@home2>

That's interesting. 

I suppose that I should say where I am getting my learning from at present.
As a graphics student I have access to all of the VTC [Virtual Training
Company] tutorials. In fact, I only discovered such access [In addition to
the Indesign VTC tutorials listed specifically in my written course notes] a
few months ago. After 5 mins I realised that I had access to a treasure
trove! I went absolutely crazy :) I mean, nobody in human history tried to
learn more about computers at the same time!! I got into loads of tutorials.
There's stuff on ethical hacking, encryption, mysql, 3D animation, search
engine optimisation...and of course umpteen programming languages of which
Java and Ruby have been the ones that I have got into the most. I add that
the people who give these tutorials are incredible.  

I admit that some of this stuff goes over my head a bit. I mean, I will
never be an ethical hacker. Interesting to know how they do it though!! :)
And a bit frightening. I have to say, knowing what tools they age and that
anybody can get them I will never buy anything over the net.  

So it's been self-taught application that's been the go so far. At least in
programming. I do have a tutor for the graphic design in my course. 

Interesting that you mention the .net framework programming. I did get into
those tutorials by Mark Long. What I don't like is that .net is limited to
the windows OS platform. I could get into javascript as well. There are
tutes on it. 

I guess that it all dovetails into that old question of self-taught versus
qualified people and at present I am going gangbusters teaching myself.
Whether doing a course proper would augment my learning or stymie it is a
difficult question and something that I will have to decide, I suppose.

Thanks again
John     

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Bentley [mailto:nathanb at finite.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 11:53 AM
To: Guy Morton; John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Hi John

As a recruiter I can tell you where the money is at the moment and
speculate on the future if cash is your priority?

Given that you likely have a creative bent since you're doing design Guy
is spot on in his recommendation for Flash and the like. 

The development languages like Perl, C's and C.net's might not be as
useful to you from a career point of view as
AS3/Flash/Flex/AIR/Silverlight or Jscript/AJAX since they're the hot
topic with growing Internet trends where media studies also put options
on the table.

If you want to play it safe, ASP.net might give you the best of both
worlds? PHP plays with the creative languages more and more and there is
a lot of community driven resource to help you learn it also.

PHP is getting a bit more portable these days too, although Java is
still the king of the hill for growth sectors like portable media.

In terms of training, I know of a couple of places that can knock you
out a quick course, but, as with all development you're going to need to
get a basic introduction and then work the language yourself to learn
it. You'll end up paying huge amounts of coin for very little practical
knowledge if you rely on training institutions alone.

What's that quote from the Matrix? "Knowing the path isn't walking the
path"?   

A crowd named dynamicwebtraining.com.au had a good rep in Sydney when I
was in the industry, they can offer a fair bit, but get your wallet
ready.

Good luck with it!

Cheers
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org
[mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Guy Morton
Sent: Sunday, 21 September 2008 12:47 AM
To: John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Forget Dreamweaver. Learn Flex (or SVG+Javascript, or preferably both).

Get an iPhone and write an app for it in SVG+Javascript..

Guy


On 20/09/2008, at 9:17 PM, John Thornton wrote:

>
>      Hello
>           I am a uni graduate [BA in maths/philosophy...yeah I know I
> wasted my youth :)] and at the moment I am doing a Dip of Graphics  
> Design by
> distance mode. It's a pretty tough course actually: photoshop,  
> Indesign etc.
> I am looking to work in the graphic design area in the future.  
> Anyway, I am
> enjoying getting into programming so much, especially Java and Ruby,  
> that I
> am open to doing a computer science/programming course in the  
> future. Anyone
> know of any that are aimed at people with no programming knowledge  
> or close
> to it? I would prefer TAFE or off campus. I do not understand the
> postgraduate fee system. I want something hands on where I get to  
> program.
> Sure, you have to understand something about what an object is to do  
> OOP.
> Fine. But I mean I don't need the history of programming, socio  
> postmodern
> Derrida critique of the programming ethos etc etc [OK that's a touch
> sarcastic].
>
>      I really have to make a big decision in the near future with  
> where I
> go with this graphics stuff. One option is to complement it with  
> some web
> programming/set up stuff which would be where programming could come  
> in.
> Other options are to spend my money instead on more software and  
> even at
> student prices software in graphics costs a bit! I have Indesign,
> Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver. They are HUGE  
> programs. If
> anyone knows of any good Dreamweaver/web courses that would be good  
> too.
>
>     Anyway, hope that the Storm can come back. [I am a Melbournite]
>
>     John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From scottp at dd.com.au  Sun Sep 21 19:46:32 2008
From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:46:32 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <bb79c8f30809211912q5ef07232g92cbf2008859255@mail.gmail.com>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
	<48D1B215.3070101@perltraining.com.au>
	<70b2ff110809171936v71fefc5ak3a9d4837152c238@mail.gmail.com>
	<E5692B82-4444-44EA-A93E-EB71BFC0FEB8@dd.com.au>
	<bb79c8f30809211912q5ef07232g92cbf2008859255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D8959024-070A-477D-8B95-881F23EE4D63@dd.com.au>


On 22/09/2008, at 12:12 PM, Alfie John wrote:

> I think Deborah's talk on "How to teach Perl" mentioned:
>
>  * Perl is a hard language to teach, let alone learn
>  * Perl is not a good 1st, 2nd, 3rd... language to learn
>  * Perl is a good 10th language to learn

Thanks that was it.

Scott

>
>
> In other words, learn something else as your first programming
> language. Learn other languages. Get good at how programming works.
> Grok idioms from other languages. Take the good from all. Then... be
> enlightened with Perl.
>
> Alfie
>
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Scott Penrose <scottp at dd.com.au>  
> wrote:
>> I can't remember who said it but I remember the comment but I liked  
>> it.
>>
>> * Perl is not easy to learn
>> * It is not the best language to learn first
>> * It is not the best language to learn second
>> * or even third
>> * But once you learnt it you will not want to use anything else.
>>
>> Another comment I know made by Damian Conway - "It fits into my  
>> brain".
>>
>> Scott
>> _______________________________________________
>> Melbourne-pm mailing list
>> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>>


From tjc at wintrmute.net  Sun Sep 21 19:56:19 2008
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:56:19 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] perl is a terrible language to learn
In-Reply-To: <bb79c8f30809211912q5ef07232g92cbf2008859255@mail.gmail.com>
References: <215E083F69FD4626A33C235D5C4678CA@home2>
	<48D1B215.3070101@perltraining.com.au>
	<70b2ff110809171936v71fefc5ak3a9d4837152c238@mail.gmail.com>
	<E5692B82-4444-44EA-A93E-EB71BFC0FEB8@dd.com.au>
	<bb79c8f30809211912q5ef07232g92cbf2008859255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080922025619.GA21274@roseberry>

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:12:31PM +1000, Alfie John wrote:
> I think Deborah's talk on "How to teach Perl" mentioned:
> 
>   * Perl is a hard language to teach, let alone learn
>   * Perl is not a good 1st, 2nd, 3rd... language to learn
>   * Perl is a good 10th language to learn
> 
> In other words, learn something else as your first programming
> language. Learn other languages. Get good at how programming works.
> Grok idioms from other languages. Take the good from all. Then... be
> enlightened with Perl.

For whatever it's worth.. I learnt C, C++, x86 assembler and mips assembler
before I learnt Perl. It took me quite a while to lose the bad C-style nuances
from my Perl coding!

-- 
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
(gpg --recv-key B1CCF88E)

From nathanb at finite.com.au  Sun Sep 21 20:21:31 2008
From: nathanb at finite.com.au (Nathan Bentley)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:21:31 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
Message-ID: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FC@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>

Hey.

Don't discount .net languages because they're committed to IIS / win
platforms.

http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

It sounds like you're still finding what's best for you as far as a
language goes and that's good because you'll be exposing yourself to all
the styles of development and giving yourself plenty of options. 

Moving forward though you'll want to find 1 or 2 core languages and
focus on them. Unless you're one of those uber genius types that can
learn everything and anything! 


Regards
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Thornton [mailto:jdthornton at ozemail.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 12:27 PM
To: Nathan Bentley; 'Guy Morton'
Cc: 'Melbourne Perlmongers'; John Thornton
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

That's interesting. 

I suppose that I should say where I am getting my learning from at
present.
As a graphics student I have access to all of the VTC [Virtual Training
Company] tutorials. In fact, I only discovered such access [In addition
to
the Indesign VTC tutorials listed specifically in my written course
notes] a
few months ago. After 5 mins I realised that I had access to a treasure
trove! I went absolutely crazy :) I mean, nobody in human history tried
to
learn more about computers at the same time!! I got into loads of
tutorials.
There's stuff on ethical hacking, encryption, mysql, 3D animation,
search
engine optimisation...and of course umpteen programming languages of
which
Java and Ruby have been the ones that I have got into the most. I add
that
the people who give these tutorials are incredible.  

I admit that some of this stuff goes over my head a bit. I mean, I will
never be an ethical hacker. Interesting to know how they do it though!!
:)
And a bit frightening. I have to say, knowing what tools they age and
that
anybody can get them I will never buy anything over the net.  

So it's been self-taught application that's been the go so far. At least
in
programming. I do have a tutor for the graphic design in my course. 

Interesting that you mention the .net framework programming. I did get
into
those tutorials by Mark Long. What I don't like is that .net is limited
to
the windows OS platform. I could get into javascript as well. There are
tutes on it. 

I guess that it all dovetails into that old question of self-taught
versus
qualified people and at present I am going gangbusters teaching myself.
Whether doing a course proper would augment my learning or stymie it is
a
difficult question and something that I will have to decide, I suppose.

Thanks again
John     

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Bentley [mailto:nathanb at finite.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 11:53 AM
To: Guy Morton; John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Hi John

As a recruiter I can tell you where the money is at the moment and
speculate on the future if cash is your priority?

Given that you likely have a creative bent since you're doing design Guy
is spot on in his recommendation for Flash and the like. 

The development languages like Perl, C's and C.net's might not be as
useful to you from a career point of view as
AS3/Flash/Flex/AIR/Silverlight or Jscript/AJAX since they're the hot
topic with growing Internet trends where media studies also put options
on the table.

If you want to play it safe, ASP.net might give you the best of both
worlds? PHP plays with the creative languages more and more and there is
a lot of community driven resource to help you learn it also.

PHP is getting a bit more portable these days too, although Java is
still the king of the hill for growth sectors like portable media.

In terms of training, I know of a couple of places that can knock you
out a quick course, but, as with all development you're going to need to
get a basic introduction and then work the language yourself to learn
it. You'll end up paying huge amounts of coin for very little practical
knowledge if you rely on training institutions alone.

What's that quote from the Matrix? "Knowing the path isn't walking the
path"?   

A crowd named dynamicwebtraining.com.au had a good rep in Sydney when I
was in the industry, they can offer a fair bit, but get your wallet
ready.

Good luck with it!

Cheers
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org
[mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Guy Morton
Sent: Sunday, 21 September 2008 12:47 AM
To: John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Forget Dreamweaver. Learn Flex (or SVG+Javascript, or preferably both).

Get an iPhone and write an app for it in SVG+Javascript..

Guy


On 20/09/2008, at 9:17 PM, John Thornton wrote:

>
>      Hello
>           I am a uni graduate [BA in maths/philosophy...yeah I know I
> wasted my youth :)] and at the moment I am doing a Dip of Graphics  
> Design by
> distance mode. It's a pretty tough course actually: photoshop,  
> Indesign etc.
> I am looking to work in the graphic design area in the future.  
> Anyway, I am
> enjoying getting into programming so much, especially Java and Ruby,  
> that I
> am open to doing a computer science/programming course in the  
> future. Anyone
> know of any that are aimed at people with no programming knowledge  
> or close
> to it? I would prefer TAFE or off campus. I do not understand the
> postgraduate fee system. I want something hands on where I get to  
> program.
> Sure, you have to understand something about what an object is to do  
> OOP.
> Fine. But I mean I don't need the history of programming, socio  
> postmodern
> Derrida critique of the programming ethos etc etc [OK that's a touch
> sarcastic].
>
>      I really have to make a big decision in the near future with  
> where I
> go with this graphics stuff. One option is to complement it with  
> some web
> programming/set up stuff which would be where programming could come  
> in.
> Other options are to spend my money instead on more software and  
> even at
> student prices software in graphics costs a bit! I have Indesign,
> Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver. They are HUGE  
> programs. If
> anyone knows of any good Dreamweaver/web courses that would be good  
> too.
>
>     Anyway, hope that the Storm can come back. [I am a Melbournite]
>
>     John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au  Sun Sep 21 22:02:44 2008
From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:02:44 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
In-Reply-To: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FC@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
References: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FC@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
Message-ID: <EC37782D4A7440198D017B7460F6E169@home2>

Nathan, that is interesting!

It is mindblowing what is going on with computer applications right now. No
doubt that in 5 years time, maybe even 2 years, so many things will be so
different, such as this web stuff that goes 3d and interfuses browser and
page. 

I left school in the DOS era and can scarcely believe how much computers
have changed in my lifetime. When I did math at uni your textbook had a
microcomputer program in DOS for optimisation qs. Back then 40MB was
considered pretty good for a PC hard drive! Nowadays I download far more in
seconds such as the 450 MB Flex trial that I just downloaded. 

Most of what I know about computers is self-taught. There are some things
such as environmental variables that I have got from books. BTW when I left
school I was hopeless with computers. A teacher even thought that I had
"technophobia" but that's how arrogant teachers were in the 90s - the
expectation was that the computer was so fantastic that all a kid had to do
was look at the screen to learn it and anyone who didn't get it was an
idiot. Not for a moment did this dropkick teacher ever consider that HIS
teaching methods may have been part of the issue.  

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Bentley [mailto:nathanb at finite.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 1:22 PM
To: John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Hey.

Don't discount .net languages because they're committed to IIS / win
platforms.

http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

It sounds like you're still finding what's best for you as far as a
language goes and that's good because you'll be exposing yourself to all
the styles of development and giving yourself plenty of options. 

Moving forward though you'll want to find 1 or 2 core languages and
focus on them. Unless you're one of those uber genius types that can
learn everything and anything! 


Regards
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Thornton [mailto:jdthornton at ozemail.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 12:27 PM
To: Nathan Bentley; 'Guy Morton'
Cc: 'Melbourne Perlmongers'; John Thornton
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

That's interesting. 

I suppose that I should say where I am getting my learning from at
present.
As a graphics student I have access to all of the VTC [Virtual Training
Company] tutorials. In fact, I only discovered such access [In addition
to
the Indesign VTC tutorials listed specifically in my written course
notes] a
few months ago. After 5 mins I realised that I had access to a treasure
trove! I went absolutely crazy :) I mean, nobody in human history tried
to
learn more about computers at the same time!! I got into loads of
tutorials.
There's stuff on ethical hacking, encryption, mysql, 3D animation,
search
engine optimisation...and of course umpteen programming languages of
which
Java and Ruby have been the ones that I have got into the most. I add
that
the people who give these tutorials are incredible.  

I admit that some of this stuff goes over my head a bit. I mean, I will
never be an ethical hacker. Interesting to know how they do it though!!
:)
And a bit frightening. I have to say, knowing what tools they age and
that
anybody can get them I will never buy anything over the net.  

So it's been self-taught application that's been the go so far. At least
in
programming. I do have a tutor for the graphic design in my course. 

Interesting that you mention the .net framework programming. I did get
into
those tutorials by Mark Long. What I don't like is that .net is limited
to
the windows OS platform. I could get into javascript as well. There are
tutes on it. 

I guess that it all dovetails into that old question of self-taught
versus
qualified people and at present I am going gangbusters teaching myself.
Whether doing a course proper would augment my learning or stymie it is
a
difficult question and something that I will have to decide, I suppose.

Thanks again
John     

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Bentley [mailto:nathanb at finite.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 11:53 AM
To: Guy Morton; John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Hi John

As a recruiter I can tell you where the money is at the moment and
speculate on the future if cash is your priority?

Given that you likely have a creative bent since you're doing design Guy
is spot on in his recommendation for Flash and the like. 

The development languages like Perl, C's and C.net's might not be as
useful to you from a career point of view as
AS3/Flash/Flex/AIR/Silverlight or Jscript/AJAX since they're the hot
topic with growing Internet trends where media studies also put options
on the table.

If you want to play it safe, ASP.net might give you the best of both
worlds? PHP plays with the creative languages more and more and there is
a lot of community driven resource to help you learn it also.

PHP is getting a bit more portable these days too, although Java is
still the king of the hill for growth sectors like portable media.

In terms of training, I know of a couple of places that can knock you
out a quick course, but, as with all development you're going to need to
get a basic introduction and then work the language yourself to learn
it. You'll end up paying huge amounts of coin for very little practical
knowledge if you rely on training institutions alone.

What's that quote from the Matrix? "Knowing the path isn't walking the
path"?   

A crowd named dynamicwebtraining.com.au had a good rep in Sydney when I
was in the industry, they can offer a fair bit, but get your wallet
ready.

Good luck with it!

Cheers
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org
[mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Guy Morton
Sent: Sunday, 21 September 2008 12:47 AM
To: John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Forget Dreamweaver. Learn Flex (or SVG+Javascript, or preferably both).

Get an iPhone and write an app for it in SVG+Javascript..

Guy


On 20/09/2008, at 9:17 PM, John Thornton wrote:

>
>      Hello
>           I am a uni graduate [BA in maths/philosophy...yeah I know I
> wasted my youth :)] and at the moment I am doing a Dip of Graphics  
> Design by
> distance mode. It's a pretty tough course actually: photoshop,  
> Indesign etc.
> I am looking to work in the graphic design area in the future.  
> Anyway, I am
> enjoying getting into programming so much, especially Java and Ruby,  
> that I
> am open to doing a computer science/programming course in the  
> future. Anyone
> know of any that are aimed at people with no programming knowledge  
> or close
> to it? I would prefer TAFE or off campus. I do not understand the
> postgraduate fee system. I want something hands on where I get to  
> program.
> Sure, you have to understand something about what an object is to do  
> OOP.
> Fine. But I mean I don't need the history of programming, socio  
> postmodern
> Derrida critique of the programming ethos etc etc [OK that's a touch
> sarcastic].
>
>      I really have to make a big decision in the near future with  
> where I
> go with this graphics stuff. One option is to complement it with  
> some web
> programming/set up stuff which would be where programming could come  
> in.
> Other options are to spend my money instead on more software and  
> even at
> student prices software in graphics costs a bit! I have Indesign,
> Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver. They are HUGE  
> programs. If
> anyone knows of any good Dreamweaver/web courses that would be good  
> too.
>
>     Anyway, hope that the Storm can come back. [I am a Melbournite]
>
>     John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From nathanb at finite.com.au  Sun Sep 21 23:23:06 2008
From: nathanb at finite.com.au (Nathan Bentley)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:23:06 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
Message-ID: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FF@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>

Yeah. At the risk of starting a fight with the following comment...
Novell is scrabbling for products and owning something in the
marketplace even more than Google is looking for something to replace
its gradual decline in click advert dominance.

Mono might be worth thinking about. Novell still has plenty of money to
burn away in the open source market and its backing Linux pretty heavy
since MS kicked it out of the workplace with Active Directory. It's a
safe assumption that .net development will go mainstream onto Apache.

If I can give you some advice though, if you're looking for a career in
computing, particularly development, don't do what everyone is looking
for now because by the time you're hot on it something else has come
along. Pick a foundation code and work from there. Portable connectivity
looks like its going to be a safe bet for the next couple of years and
I'm predicting that the next step is (finally) going to be home media
devices in the mainstream (Internet TV etc). 

The non web code, I got no idea. I'm going to make a wild prediction and
say that it might be worth looking at something really out there like
machine code or logic gate mathematics (which might be right up your
alley) since silicon processors are developing at such a rate that soon
they will peak in how small they can be made - we may see a revolution
in the processor industry. Being in the know would be advantageous for
sure. Although this will probably require a study of Physics, advanced
math, a life dedicated to study and a long trip overseas...

Otherwise, I was talking to a guy here not too long ago who was telling
me that a Ford subsidiary he was with uses PHP to control its
manufacturing assembly line - at the machine level, which I didn't think
was possible.

I left school in 98 and we were still using Mac IIc's and coding in
Pascal "IF", "THEN"... I though I was king of the hill with a 1024Mb 5
1/4 inch BigFoot HDD. Now my cheapo Sagem phone has the same storage
capacity in a Micro SD card that's so small I can't even see it without
my glasses.
  

Regards
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Thornton [mailto:jdthornton at ozemail.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 3:03 PM
To: Nathan Bentley
Cc: 'Melbourne Perlmongers'
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Nathan, that is interesting!

It is mindblowing what is going on with computer applications right now.
No
doubt that in 5 years time, maybe even 2 years, so many things will be
so
different, such as this web stuff that goes 3d and interfuses browser
and
page. 

I left school in the DOS era and can scarcely believe how much computers
have changed in my lifetime. When I did math at uni your textbook had a
microcomputer program in DOS for optimisation qs. Back then 40MB was
considered pretty good for a PC hard drive! Nowadays I download far more
in
seconds such as the 450 MB Flex trial that I just downloaded. 

Most of what I know about computers is self-taught. There are some
things
such as environmental variables that I have got from books. BTW when I
left
school I was hopeless with computers. A teacher even thought that I had
"technophobia" but that's how arrogant teachers were in the 90s - the
expectation was that the computer was so fantastic that all a kid had to
do
was look at the screen to learn it and anyone who didn't get it was an
idiot. Not for a moment did this dropkick teacher ever consider that HIS
teaching methods may have been part of the issue.  

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Bentley [mailto:nathanb at finite.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 1:22 PM
To: John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Hey.

Don't discount .net languages because they're committed to IIS / win
platforms.

http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

It sounds like you're still finding what's best for you as far as a
language goes and that's good because you'll be exposing yourself to all
the styles of development and giving yourself plenty of options. 

Moving forward though you'll want to find 1 or 2 core languages and
focus on them. Unless you're one of those uber genius types that can
learn everything and anything! 


Regards
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Thornton [mailto:jdthornton at ozemail.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 12:27 PM
To: Nathan Bentley; 'Guy Morton'
Cc: 'Melbourne Perlmongers'; John Thornton
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

That's interesting. 

I suppose that I should say where I am getting my learning from at
present.
As a graphics student I have access to all of the VTC [Virtual Training
Company] tutorials. In fact, I only discovered such access [In addition
to
the Indesign VTC tutorials listed specifically in my written course
notes] a
few months ago. After 5 mins I realised that I had access to a treasure
trove! I went absolutely crazy :) I mean, nobody in human history tried
to
learn more about computers at the same time!! I got into loads of
tutorials.
There's stuff on ethical hacking, encryption, mysql, 3D animation,
search
engine optimisation...and of course umpteen programming languages of
which
Java and Ruby have been the ones that I have got into the most. I add
that
the people who give these tutorials are incredible.  

I admit that some of this stuff goes over my head a bit. I mean, I will
never be an ethical hacker. Interesting to know how they do it though!!
:)
And a bit frightening. I have to say, knowing what tools they age and
that
anybody can get them I will never buy anything over the net.  

So it's been self-taught application that's been the go so far. At least
in
programming. I do have a tutor for the graphic design in my course. 

Interesting that you mention the .net framework programming. I did get
into
those tutorials by Mark Long. What I don't like is that .net is limited
to
the windows OS platform. I could get into javascript as well. There are
tutes on it. 

I guess that it all dovetails into that old question of self-taught
versus
qualified people and at present I am going gangbusters teaching myself.
Whether doing a course proper would augment my learning or stymie it is
a
difficult question and something that I will have to decide, I suppose.

Thanks again
John     

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Bentley [mailto:nathanb at finite.com.au] 
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2008 11:53 AM
To: Guy Morton; John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: RE: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Hi John

As a recruiter I can tell you where the money is at the moment and
speculate on the future if cash is your priority?

Given that you likely have a creative bent since you're doing design Guy
is spot on in his recommendation for Flash and the like. 

The development languages like Perl, C's and C.net's might not be as
useful to you from a career point of view as
AS3/Flash/Flex/AIR/Silverlight or Jscript/AJAX since they're the hot
topic with growing Internet trends where media studies also put options
on the table.

If you want to play it safe, ASP.net might give you the best of both
worlds? PHP plays with the creative languages more and more and there is
a lot of community driven resource to help you learn it also.

PHP is getting a bit more portable these days too, although Java is
still the king of the hill for growth sectors like portable media.

In terms of training, I know of a couple of places that can knock you
out a quick course, but, as with all development you're going to need to
get a basic introduction and then work the language yourself to learn
it. You'll end up paying huge amounts of coin for very little practical
knowledge if you rely on training institutions alone.

What's that quote from the Matrix? "Knowing the path isn't walking the
path"?   

A crowd named dynamicwebtraining.com.au had a good rep in Sydney when I
was in the industry, they can offer a fair bit, but get your wallet
ready.

Good luck with it!

Cheers
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org
[mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Guy Morton
Sent: Sunday, 21 September 2008 12:47 AM
To: John Thornton
Cc: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

Forget Dreamweaver. Learn Flex (or SVG+Javascript, or preferably both).

Get an iPhone and write an app for it in SVG+Javascript..

Guy


On 20/09/2008, at 9:17 PM, John Thornton wrote:

>
>      Hello
>           I am a uni graduate [BA in maths/philosophy...yeah I know I
> wasted my youth :)] and at the moment I am doing a Dip of Graphics  
> Design by
> distance mode. It's a pretty tough course actually: photoshop,  
> Indesign etc.
> I am looking to work in the graphic design area in the future.  
> Anyway, I am
> enjoying getting into programming so much, especially Java and Ruby,  
> that I
> am open to doing a computer science/programming course in the  
> future. Anyone
> know of any that are aimed at people with no programming knowledge  
> or close
> to it? I would prefer TAFE or off campus. I do not understand the
> postgraduate fee system. I want something hands on where I get to  
> program.
> Sure, you have to understand something about what an object is to do  
> OOP.
> Fine. But I mean I don't need the history of programming, socio  
> postmodern
> Derrida critique of the programming ethos etc etc [OK that's a touch
> sarcastic].
>
>      I really have to make a big decision in the near future with  
> where I
> go with this graphics stuff. One option is to complement it with  
> some web
> programming/set up stuff which would be where programming could come  
> in.
> Other options are to spend my money instead on more software and  
> even at
> student prices software in graphics costs a bit! I have Indesign,
> Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver. They are HUGE  
> programs. If
> anyone knows of any good Dreamweaver/web courses that would be good  
> too.
>
>     Anyway, hope that the Storm can come back. [I am a Melbournite]
>
>     John
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

From leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au  Mon Sep 22 16:56:07 2008
From: leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au (leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:56:07 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Linus on SSD's
Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769803D33732@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>

Following on on the netbook chat, here's some advice from Linus
 
http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail
<http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&id=93409&th
readid=92678&roomid=2> &id=93409&threadid=92678&roomid=2
 

Leif Eriksen | R&D Engineer

Salmat BusinessForce
2 Military Road
Matraville NSW 2036 Australia

t +61 3 9217 5545
f +61 3 9217 5702
e leif.eriksen at salmat.com.au
w salmat.com.au

Salmat - the force in one to one communication

 
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From pat at patspam.com  Mon Sep 22 17:22:36 2008
From: pat at patspam.com (Patrick Donelan)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:22:36 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
In-Reply-To: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FB@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
References: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FB@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
Message-ID: <42321ee20809221722pb96158fqeafed284f77ee7db@mail.gmail.com>

>
> PHP plays with the creative languages more and more


What exactly do you mean by that?

Patrick
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From nathanb at finite.com.au  Mon Sep 22 18:16:44 2008
From: nathanb at finite.com.au (Nathan Bentley)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:16:44 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
Message-ID: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F543130103@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>

Hey.

 

I'm thinking of this sort of stuff: 

 

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/flashmx_php.html

http://www.amfphp.org/

 

Regards

 

Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS

 

 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU <http://www.finite.com.au/> 

 

________________________________

From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org
[mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Patrick Donelan
Sent: Tuesday, 23 September 2008 10:23 AM
To: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

 

	PHP plays with the creative languages more and more


What exactly do you mean by that?

Patrick

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From tjc at wintrmute.net  Mon Sep 22 18:27:30 2008
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:27:30 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] just my opinion
In-Reply-To: <48D2E2F7.3080803@perltraining.com.au>
References: <3EA0713A34924DCF9E76024E920779AB@home2>
	<200809181037.53584.adrian.muhrer@rea-group.com>
	<48D1BB7B.9010100@perltraining.com.au>
	<20080918115933.GA529@roseberry>
	<48D2E2F7.3080803@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <20080923012730.GB12661@roseberry>

On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 09:23:35AM +1000, Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> Toby Corkindale wrote:
> 
> > What would you expect the output of the following script to be?
> > 
> > --------
> > my %foo = (
> >     undef => 'null',
> >     foo   => 'bar',
> >     qux   => 'qaaz'
> > );
> > print join(' ', @foo{qw(undef foo qux)}) . "\n";
> > --------
> 
> Exactly what it is.  "null bar qaaz".  It doesn't make any sense to have an
> undefined hash key (in fact Perl will complain under warnings if you try hard
> enough (Use of uninitialized value in list assignment at - line 1.)).
> Furthermore => is just like , *except* that it quotes any whole word to its
> left.  Thus the first key there is 'undef' not a call to the function undef().
> Use undef() if that's what you mean.

I understand why it is done, but I think it is confusing to people, eg:
---------
my %foo = ( undef => 'null' );
say 'Hash val of undef is: ' . $foo{undef}; # prints null
my $key;
say "My key is " . (defined $key ? 'defined' : 'undef'); # prints undef
say "My key's hash val is: " . $foo{$key}; # prints nothing, and warns.
----------

But that said, not that many people probably hit it anyway.. As you say, undef
is a silly thing to hash.

In my original example I also used a hash slice: @foo{qw(undef foo qux)}
Aside from the use of undef there, I think hash vs array slices are again a tad
confusing to the newcomer too, eg:
-----------
my %foo = qw( maria trans cat mat );
my @foo = ( socks => 'jocks', moon => 'gruyere' );
say @foo{qw(maria cat)};
say @foo[-1, 2];
%foo = @foo;
my $ref = \%foo;
say @$ref{qw(moon socks)};
-----------
(Mind you, I'd shoot anyone who actually tried to submit code written that way)

It makes sense if you remember that substituting a $ sigil in front of a
variable converts it into returning a scalar, and that smushing a snail on its
forehead makes it return arrays, but the way the names appear to overlap with
existing variables can throw people.

tjc

-- 
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
(gpg --recv-key B1CCF88E)

From pat at patspam.com  Mon Sep 22 18:32:00 2008
From: pat at patspam.com (Patrick Donelan)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:32:00 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
In-Reply-To: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F543130103@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
References: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F543130103@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
Message-ID: <42321ee20809221832y5d4ebab8g230ad6e390b98de6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Nathan,

I don't really see how those examples highlight any advantage of PHP over
any other server-side langage.

> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/flashmx_php.html
>
In this example Flash is just sending http requests and PHP processes them
like any other server-side language would.

> <http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/flashmx_php.html>
>
> http://www.amfphp.org/
>
In this example Flash serialises data into Action Message Format (AMF) and
sends them over http. PHP then processes the requests like any other
server-side language would, and serialises/deserialises AMF like any other
server-side language would (for example, a Perl script could use
Data::AMF<http://search.cpan.org/%7Etypester/Data-AMF-0.02004/lib/Data/AMF.pm>
).

Regards,

Patrick

> <http://www.amfphp.org/>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> *Nathan Bentley
> *CONSULTANT - *FINITE IT* RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
>
> * *
>
>
> LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
> TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   *MOB 0416 831 495*  DIRECT 03 9617
> 3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU <http://www.finite.com.au/>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org [mailto:
> melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb <melbourne-pm-bounces%2Bnathanb>=
> finite.com.au at pm.org] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Donelan
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 September 2008 10:23 AM
> *To:* Melbourne Perlmongers
> *Subject:* Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
>
>
>
> PHP plays with the creative languages more and more
>
>
> What exactly do you mean by that?
>
> Patrick
>
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From nathanb at finite.com.au  Tue Sep 23 00:24:11 2008
From: nathanb at finite.com.au (Nathan Bentley)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:24:11 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
Message-ID: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F54313010C@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>

Hey. No worries, I'm leaning towards the latter, but I'm thinking back
to that tiff that broke out last week about Java v Perl and the general
consensus that some people learn things differently to others, so it's
really a moot point and all about the individual learning the code and
not about the technical capabilities of the language.

 

Of course, this is the Perl board, so I'm going to say its Perl. Don't
tell the guys at PHPMelb.org ;)

 

Sweet.

 

Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS

 

 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU <http://www.finite.com.au/> 

 

________________________________

From: Patrick Donelan [mailto:pat at patspam.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 23 September 2008 11:46 AM
To: Nathan Bentley
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

 

Hi Nathan,

I'm not either, and sorry if my tone sounded aggressive. 

I just don't see how PHP is fundamentally Flash friendly or un-friendly.
If you mean it's more Flash friendly because there are more 3rd-party
libraries like the AMF one available now, then shouldn't you be
recommending Perl instead because of the existance of the CPAN?

If on the other hand you mean PHP is more Flash friendly because PHP has
a less steep learning curve and an abundance of entry-level learning
resources, then that's fine. I just think there's quite a distinction
there.

Cheers,

Patrick

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Nathan Bentley <nathanb at finite.com.au>
wrote:

Hey.

 

I'm not saying its better or worse, its just more Flash friendly than it
used to be. Given the ease of access to resources for PHP it might be a
good option for someone in Johns position to look at.

 

Cheers

 

Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS

 




LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU <http://www.finite.com.au/> 

 

________________________________

From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org [mailto:
melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb <mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces%2Bnathanb> =
finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Donelan
Sent: Tuesday, 23 September 2008 11:32 AM


To: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

 

Hi Nathan,

I don't really see how those examples highlight any advantage of PHP
over any other server-side langage.

	http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/flashmx_php.html

In this example Flash is just sending http requests and PHP processes
them like any other server-side language would.

	<http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/flashmx_php.html> 

	http://www.amfphp.org/

In this example Flash serialises data into Action Message Format (AMF)
and sends them over http. PHP then processes the requests like any other
server-side language would, and serialises/deserialises AMF like any
other server-side language would (for example, a Perl script could use 
Data::AMF
<http://search.cpan.org/%7Etypester/Data-AMF-0.02004/lib/Data/AMF.pm> ).

Regards,

Patrick

	<http://www.amfphp.org/> 

	 

	Regards

	 

	Nathan Bentley
	CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS

	 

	

	
	LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
	TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT
03 9617 3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU <http://www.finite.com.au/> 

	 

	
________________________________


	From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org [mailto:
melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb <mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces%2Bnathanb> =
finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Donelan
	Sent: Tuesday, 23 September 2008 10:23 AM
	To: Melbourne Perlmongers

	
	Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

	 

		PHP plays with the creative languages more and more

	
	What exactly do you mean by that?
	
	Patrick

 

 

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From ben at benbalbo.com  Tue Sep 23 00:37:35 2008
From: ben at benbalbo.com (Ben Balbo)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:37:35 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
In-Reply-To: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F54313010C@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
References: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F54313010C@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
Message-ID: <48D89CBF.1030002@benbalbo.com>

> Of course, this is the Perl board, so I?m going to say its Perl. Don?t
> tell the guys at PHPMelb.org ;)

Should I ignore that comment then? :-)

Ben B - a phpMelb committee member, who also has a tendency to code in
Perl on the odd occasion ;-)

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From nathanb at finite.com.au  Tue Sep 23 00:39:08 2008
From: nathanb at finite.com.au (Nathan Bentley)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:39:08 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
Message-ID: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F54313010E@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>

The minute I saw who that email was from...

ohsnap.ytmnd.com/

Regards
 
Nathan Bentley
CONSULTANT - FINITE IT RECRUITMENT SOLUTIONS
 


LVL 6, 411 COLLINS ST, MELBOURNE, VIC 3000
TEL 03 9617 3900   FAX 03 9617 3999   MOB 0416 831 495  DIRECT 03 9617
3935   WWW.FINITE.COM.AU
 

-----Original Message-----
From: melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org
[mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+nathanb=finite.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of
Ben Balbo
Sent: Tuesday, 23 September 2008 5:38 PM
To: Melbourne Perlmongers
Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff

> Of course, this is the Perl board, so I'm going to say its Perl. Don't
> tell the guys at PHPMelb.org ;)

Should I ignore that comment then? :-)

Ben B - a phpMelb committee member, who also has a tendency to code in
Perl on the odd occasion ;-)


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Tue Sep 23 00:55:34 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:55:34 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Back to Perl.... Next meeting Wednesday 15th October
Message-ID: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>

G'day folk,

Traditionally our next meeting would be on the 8th October.  However, Paul and I
will be away training *again* on that date, and as I have some goodies[1] to
bring along and give away; I'm unilaterally[2] deciding to move the next meeting
date to the following Wednesday 15th October.  If this means you can come when
you normally wouldn't be able to: bonus!  If it means it now conflicts with
something else: my apologies.

I haven't got any speakers for the next meeting, and the give-aways won't take
that long; so does anyone have anything cool they want to talk about?  For the
long-time members - is now a good time to re-give a talk from years ago?

Talk suggestions welcome.  Also, remember that we have a library.
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Melbourne_Perl_Mongers/Bookshelf  If you'd like me to
bring along a book for you to borrow, please let me know (and then remind me).

All the best,

	Jacinta

[1] - OSDC 2004/2005 t-shirts and other conference things; more details to come
[2] - Not that unilaterally, some of us spoke about this at the pub and everyone
involved in that conversation seemed happy with the idea.

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From ts at meme.com.au  Tue Sep 23 01:39:22 2008
From: ts at meme.com.au (Tony Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:39:22 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Back to Perl.... Next meeting Wednesday 15th
	October
In-Reply-To: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
References: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <02F31A35-4FBD-4259-A085-93E6D39A1374@meme.com.au>

On 23/09/2008, at 5:55 PM, Jacinta Richardson wrote:

> I'm unilaterally[2] deciding to move the next meeting
> date to the following Wednesday 15th October.

Just say we are having it, as (almost) always, on the third last  
Tuesday in October.

Suits me very well. I have something that outranks Melb-PM on the 8th.

But as usual recently I haven't got anything of relevance to say,  
although it would be good to hear Guy Morton expand on his recent  
throwaway line about JavaScript and SVG.




Tony Smith
0405 499 718
TransForum Developer
http://www.transforum.net/

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From sgc294 at internode.on.net  Tue Sep 23 04:34:49 2008
From: sgc294 at internode.on.net (Andrew Dent)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:34:49 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Back to Perl.... Next meeting Wednesday 15th
	October
In-Reply-To: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
References: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <48D8D459.4060101@internode.on.net>

G'day Jacinta

This is great news as it is a stretch to go to the both the Sage meeting 
and the Perl Mongers meeting on consecutive nights.

Cheers

Andrew Dent

Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> G'day folk,
>
> Traditionally our next meeting would be on the 8th October.  However, Paul and I
> will be away training *again* on that date, and as I have some goodies[1] to
> bring along and give away; I'm unilaterally[2] deciding to move the next meeting
> date to the following Wednesday 15th October.  If this means you can come when
> you normally wouldn't be able to: bonus!  If it means it now conflicts with
> something else: my apologies.
>
> I haven't got any speakers for the next meeting, and the give-aways won't take
> that long; so does anyone have anything cool they want to talk about?  For the
> long-time members - is now a good time to re-give a talk from years ago?
>
> Talk suggestions welcome.  Also, remember that we have a library.
> http://perl.net.au/wiki/Melbourne_Perl_Mongers/Bookshelf  If you'd like me to
> bring along a book for you to borrow, please let me know (and then remind me).
>
> All the best,
>
> 	Jacinta
>
> [1] - OSDC 2004/2005 t-shirts and other conference things; more details to come
> [2] - Not that unilaterally, some of us spoke about this at the pub and everyone
> involved in that conversation seemed happy with the idea.
>
>   


From sgc294 at internode.on.net  Tue Sep 23 04:38:55 2008
From: sgc294 at internode.on.net (Andrew Dent)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:38:55 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Back to Perl.... Next meeting Wednesday
	15th	October
In-Reply-To: <48D8D459.4060101@internode.on.net>
References: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
	<48D8D459.4060101@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <48D8D54F.8020901@internode.on.net>

Opps, I should have checked the calendar. As Oct 1 is a Wednesday, this 
will mean that they will still be on consecutive nights. :-(

Andrew Dent wrote:
> G'day Jacinta
>
> This is great news as it is a stretch to go to the both the Sage 
> meeting and the Perl Mongers meeting on consecutive nights.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andrew Dent
>
> Jacinta Richardson wrote:
>> G'day folk,
>>
>> Traditionally our next meeting would be on the 8th October.  However, 
>> Paul and I
>> will be away training *again* on that date, and as I have some 
>> goodies[1] to
>> bring along and give away; I'm unilaterally[2] deciding to move the 
>> next meeting
>> date to the following Wednesday 15th October.  If this means you can 
>> come when
>> you normally wouldn't be able to: bonus!  If it means it now 
>> conflicts with
>> something else: my apologies.
>>
>> I haven't got any speakers for the next meeting, and the give-aways 
>> won't take
>> that long; so does anyone have anything cool they want to talk 
>> about?  For the
>> long-time members - is now a good time to re-give a talk from years ago?
>>
>> Talk suggestions welcome.  Also, remember that we have a library.
>> http://perl.net.au/wiki/Melbourne_Perl_Mongers/Bookshelf  If you'd 
>> like me to
>> bring along a book for you to borrow, please let me know (and then 
>> remind me).
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>     Jacinta
>>
>> [1] - OSDC 2004/2005 t-shirts and other conference things; more 
>> details to come
>> [2] - Not that unilaterally, some of us spoke about this at the pub 
>> and everyone
>> involved in that conversation seemed happy with the idea.
>>
>>   
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>
>


From guy at alchemy.com.au  Tue Sep 23 07:04:41 2008
From: guy at alchemy.com.au (Guy Morton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:04:41 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Back to Perl.... Next meeting Wednesday 15th
	October
In-Reply-To: <02F31A35-4FBD-4259-A085-93E6D39A1374@meme.com.au>
References: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
	<02F31A35-4FBD-4259-A085-93E6D39A1374@meme.com.au>
Message-ID: <453272FF-A3B9-4132-A529-238E0DD838CE@alchemy.com.au>

Throwaway lines are all I have time for, and I'm not sure I have all  
that much of interest to say anyway...

Thanks for the vote of confidence though. :-)

Guy

On 23/09/2008, at 6:39 PM, Tony Smith wrote:

> On 23/09/2008, at 5:55 PM, Jacinta Richardson wrote:
>
>> I'm unilaterally[2] deciding to move the next meeting
>> date to the following Wednesday 15th October.
>
> Just say we are having it, as (almost) always, on the third last  
> Tuesday in October.
>
> Suits me very well. I have something that outranks Melb-PM on the 8th.
>
> But as usual recently I haven't got anything of relevance to say,  
> although it would be good to hear Guy Morton expand on his recent  
> throwaway line about JavaScript and SVG.
>
>
>
>
> Tony Smith
> 0405 499 718
> TransForum Developer
> http://www.transforum.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm

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From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Sep 25 18:02:05 2008
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:02:05 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Back to Perl.... Next meeting Wednesday 15th
	October
In-Reply-To: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
References: <48D8A0F6.4060903@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <48DC348D.70305@perltraining.com.au>

Bother.  I've just been reminded that I'm also busy on Wednesday 15th.

Perhaps I should just do my give-aways in November.  :(  I won't change the
meeting date again (but you can), and I'll see you all in November.

Sorry about this!

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From wayland at wayland.id.au  Fri Sep 26 19:05:15 2008
From: wayland at wayland.id.au (Timothy S. Nelson)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:05:15 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] more computer programming stuff
In-Reply-To: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FC@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
References: <2C8B3DA292C3544CB35D0B81FED1F5431300FC@fin-exc03.Finite.Local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.10.0809271204270.5651@gwalcmai.nelson.org.au>

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Nathan Bentley wrote:

> Moving forward though you'll want to find 1 or 2 core languages and
> focus on them. Unless you're one of those uber genius types that can
> learn everything and anything!

 	Eventually, but I think first he should learn a bit of a few different 
ones, so that he can get a feel for what he likes :).


---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Name: Tim Nelson                 | Because the Creator is,        |
| E-mail: wayland at wayland.id.au    | I am                           |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

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From hamish at hamishcarpenter.com  Tue Sep 30 04:24:14 2008
From: hamish at hamishcarpenter.com (Hamish Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:24:14 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] foreign characters and perlio
Message-ID: <48E20C5E.4080701@hamishcarpenter.com>

As a sort of follow up from Stephen's Perl Mongers talk in August, 
I've used knowledge gained there to advantage at work recently and 
thought I would share.

Mostly I used the discussions at the meeting and Stephens handy 
links [0] to search out enough information to solve the problem. It 
turns that to import files, they need to be in UTF-8 but they are 
encoded differently, either ISO-8859-1 or cp437 [1]. We had an ? 
(latin small letter with diaresis [2]) to import. The problem didn't 
occur immediately as only some people had characters outside the 
US-ASCII space (Unicode range U+0000 to U+007F). Using hexdump was 
useful in determining the encodings as they were all single byte. 
Once converted to utf8, the file grew by a few bytes.

The solution was to use perl to convert between the encodings. It 
turns out that this was pretty easy and we could do it immediately 
as perl is installed. There wasn't an existing conversion tool 
installed in our environment.

The code, Version 1:

     use Encode;
     open my $infile, '<', 'datafile.dat';
     my $bytes  = do { local $/; <$infile> };
     my $chars  = decode( 'cp437', $bytes );
     my $output = encode( 'utf8',  $chars );
     open my $out_file, '>', 'datafile.utf8';
     print $out_file $output;

The code, version 2:

     use Encode;
     open my $infile, "<:encoding(cp437)", 'datafile.dat';
     my $data = do { local $/; <$infile> };
     # see Encode::PerlIO and [3]
     open my $out_file, '>:encoding(utf8)', 'datafile.utf8';
     print $out_file $data;


The code basically slurps in the file and then spits it back out 
again. Version 1 uses conversion routines as discussed by Stephen 
but version 2 uses the new perlio layers to do it automagically [3]. 
When using files, version 2 avoids the confusing encode/decode 
pairing. Or is that decode/encode? It is also slightly shorter but 
its mostly formatting, I'm sure a golfer could do this in a single line.

I hope this rings a bell for someone in the future and stops them 
from tearing their hair out!


Hamish Carpenter


[0] 
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Melbourne_Perl_Mongers/Meeting_History_2008#Wednesday.2C_August_13th_2008
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP437
[2] http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/00f6/index.htm
[3] http://www.perladvent.org/2004/11th/