From ts at meme.com.au Fri Dec 5 23:21:13 2008 From: ts at meme.com.au (Tony Smith) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:21:13 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] December Meeting? Message-ID: <9E6547B7-B27D-4E6F-8AB2-8A2C3B5F729B@meme.com.au> I haven't seen or heard mention of whether we are planning to meet in December, which would presumably mean this coming Wednesday. If we are and it is at a venue suitable for presentations, I'd be happy to address one important bit I left understated in my OSDC lightning talk and say a little or a lot about the Perl scripting environment inside the just released cross-platform Golly 2.0 cellular automata environment: http://golly.sf.net/ Tony Smith Complex Systems Analyst Meme Media Melbourne, Australia http://www.meme.com.au/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx Sun Dec 7 04:34:45 2008 From: melbourne-pm at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 23:34:45 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] December Meeting? In-Reply-To: <9E6547B7-B27D-4E6F-8AB2-8A2C3B5F729B@meme.com.au> References: <9E6547B7-B27D-4E6F-8AB2-8A2C3B5F729B@meme.com.au> Message-ID: <493BC2E5.4000008@popcorn.cx> From what I remember, the talk at the last meeting was that if we were to have a December meeting, it would probably be another social one at a pub. One option for that is to join up with the next Sub Standards meeting which is also on the 10th. But the venue for that is still TBB. http://pubstandards.org/asia_pacific/australia/melbourne Stephen Tony Smith wrote: > I haven't seen or heard mention of whether we are planning to meet in > December, which would presumably mean this coming Wednesday. > > If we are and it is at a venue suitable for presentations, I'd be happy > to address one important bit I left understated in my OSDC lightning > talk and say a little or a lot about the Perl scripting environment > inside the just released cross-platform Golly 2.0 cellular automata > environment: http://golly.sf.net/ > > > > > Tony Smith > > Complex Systems Analyst > > Meme Media > > Melbourne, Australia > > http://www.meme.com.au/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm -- _ _ _ Stephen Edmonds _/ \_ / \_/ \ Melbourne, Australia <_ " _> / \ / O \ / " \ stephen at popcorn.cx / ___ \ | O | http://popcorn.cx/ \_____/ \___/ From ben at benbalbo.com Sun Dec 7 16:15:58 2008 From: ben at benbalbo.com (Ben Balbo) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:15:58 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] December Meeting? In-Reply-To: <493BC2E5.4000008@popcorn.cx> References: <9E6547B7-B27D-4E6F-8AB2-8A2C3B5F729B@meme.com.au> <493BC2E5.4000008@popcorn.cx> Message-ID: <493C673E.5000408@benbalbo.com> > One option for that is to join up with the next Sub Standards meeting > which is also on the 10th. But the venue for that is still TBB. I was going to suggest that. If anyone has any recommendations for location, please feel free to let me know directly, or join the Pub Standards Melbourne mailing list[1] and join the banter. Note the rules of Sub Standards dictate we can never go back to the same pub twice, so if it's listed under *Been* on this page: > http://pubstandards.org/asia_pacific/australia/melbourne then it's no longer an option ;-) Cheers! BB [1] Email melbourne-join at pubstandards.org or visit https://secure.benshosting.com/mailman/listinfo/pubstandardsmelbourne -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 257 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From ben at benbalbo.com Mon Dec 8 15:46:26 2008 From: ben at benbalbo.com (Ben Balbo) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:46:26 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] December Meeting? In-Reply-To: <493C673E.5000408@benbalbo.com> References: <9E6547B7-B27D-4E6F-8AB2-8A2C3B5F729B@meme.com.au> <493BC2E5.4000008@popcorn.cx> <493C673E.5000408@benbalbo.com> Message-ID: <493DB1D2.2000201@benbalbo.com> >> One option for that is to join up with the next Sub Standards meeting >> which is also on the 10th. But the venue for that is still TBB. A venue has been decided, should you wish to join us. We'll be meeting at the Niagara Hotel, 383 Lonsdale Street at around 6.30 or 7pm. I won't send any more emails to the MPM list regarding this meetup (it's not exactly on topic), but if you're the type that would like to join some geeks for random banter over beer on a monthly basis don't forget to join the mailing list (melbourne-join at pubstandards.org)! Cheers! BB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 257 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alec.clews at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 12:35:26 2008 From: alec.clews at gmail.com (Alec Clews) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:35:26 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Free pdf of Higher-Order Perl Message-ID: <1228941326.7996.2.camel@k10> For those who don't read /., you can get a free PDF copy of Higher-Order Perl from http://hop.perl.plover.com/book/ -- Alec Clews Personal Melbourne, Australia Jabber: alecclews at jabber.org.au PGPKey ID: 0x9BBBFC7C blog:http://alecthegeek.wordpress.com/ From adam.clarke at strategicdata.com.au Wed Dec 17 02:39:26 2008 From: adam.clarke at strategicdata.com.au (Adam Clarke) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:39:26 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] [OT] Does she run Perl 6? Message-ID: Damian Conway on the Radio http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2448216.htm From andrew.stuart at flatraterecruitment.com.au Sun Dec 21 17:07:58 2008 From: andrew.stuart at flatraterecruitment.com.au (Andrew Stuart) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:07:58 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Melbourne job: Perl developer - junior to mid-level In-Reply-To: <738B9191-5301-4DE9-A240-08C44454F792@flatraterecruitment.com.au> References: <738B9191-5301-4DE9-A240-08C44454F792@flatraterecruitment.com.au> Message-ID: Home ADSL 2+ included (if available in your area). This South Melbourne based company is highly successful and continuing to grow. We're looking for a passionate Perl developer to join the team. The company runs a global network of Linux servers handling RFC822 message processing. We're looking for a passionate and talented Perl programmer to join us - this is a great environment to work in with a hardworking and also fun atmosphere. Your choice of development environment - we'll provide you with a computer to work with operating systems made by Steve, Bill or Linus - it's up to you. The key requirement is experience and an interest in Perl programming. We are happy to consider people with junior to mid- level experience. Skills Required ** OO coding skills ** Enjoys Perl coding ** Passionate about development ** SQL coding skills ** You'll be taught everything else you need to know We're looking for someone who: ** Is passionate about coding ** Gets along well with others in a team ** Is not dogmatic and does not get upset when technical decisions don't go their way ** Flexible and adaptable ? willing to do what needs to be done You'll need to be friendly and a nice person to have around. Apply now! To apply, send your resume to info at flatraterecruitment.com.au Enquiries to (03) 9696 1616 www.flatraterecruitment.com.au From tjc at wintrmute.net Sun Dec 21 23:18:00 2008 From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Wintermute) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:18:00 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] DateTime::TimeZone breaking under PAR? Message-ID: Hmm, I encountered an odd problem with DateTime::TimeZone today. When using it via a PAR archive, it refused to determine the local timezone. (This was on a Debian Etch fresh install, albeit with upgraded PAR libraries, since the normal Etch ones are quite broken, and then confirmed on an Ubuntu Hardy setup as well.) The test script that fails: ----------------timetest.pl------------ #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warnings; use DateTime; use DateTime::TimeZone; my $tz = DateTime::TimeZone->new( name => 'local' ); print "Success!\n"; ---------------------------- Create the PAR with: pp -o datetime.par -M DateTime::Locale::en timetest.pl (That's on Etch.. If I'm on Hardy I need an extra: -M DateTime::TimeZone::Local::Unix ) Then execute it: parl datetime.par timetest.pl I get "Cannot determine local time zone", rather than "Success!", on both Etch and Hardy. DateTime versions: Etch - 0.35 Hardy - 0.42 and then 0.4501 DateTime::TimeZone versions: Etch - 0.42 Hardy - 0.7701 and then 0.8301 Any thoughts if I'm Doing It Wrong, before I submit to RT? Cheers, Toby From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Dec 22 00:36:28 2008 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:36:28 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] DateTime::TimeZone breaking under PAR? In-Reply-To: (Toby Wintermute's message of "Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:18:00 +1100") References: Message-ID: <87d4fkk3n7.fsf@rimspace.net> "Toby Wintermute" writes: > I encountered an odd problem with DateTime::TimeZone today. > > When using it via a PAR archive, it refused to determine the local timezone. > (This was on a Debian Etch fresh install, albeit with upgraded PAR > libraries, since the normal Etch ones are quite broken, and then > confirmed on an Ubuntu Hardy setup as well.) DateTime::TimeZone::Local requires a set of additional classes to operate, which are loaded at runtime through 'eval "use $class"', which PAR will probably not detect ? certainly not without running, and not completely in any case. You want to include all the classes under the DateTime::TimeZone namespace, such as DateTime::TimeZone::Australia::Melbourne. (For me it blows up on DateTime::TimeZone::Local::Unix, which is doubtless a symptom of the same issue.) Regards, Daniel > > The test script that fails: > ----------------timetest.pl------------ > #!/usr/bin/perl > use strict; > use warnings; > > use DateTime; > use DateTime::TimeZone; > > my $tz = DateTime::TimeZone->new( name => 'local' ); > print "Success!\n"; > ---------------------------- > > Create the PAR with: > pp -o datetime.par -M DateTime::Locale::en timetest.pl > (That's on Etch.. If I'm on Hardy I need an extra: -M > DateTime::TimeZone::Local::Unix ) > > Then execute it: > parl datetime.par timetest.pl > > I get "Cannot determine local time zone", rather than "Success!", on > both Etch and Hardy. > > DateTime versions: > Etch - 0.35 > Hardy - 0.42 and then 0.4501 > > DateTime::TimeZone versions: > Etch - 0.42 > Hardy - 0.7701 and then 0.8301 > > Any thoughts if I'm Doing It Wrong, before I submit to RT? > > Cheers, > Toby > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From david.warring at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 11:56:12 2008 From: david.warring at gmail.com (David Warring) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:56:12 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] DateTime::TimeZone breaking under PAR? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Toby, Rather this is a result of PAR's use of Module::ScanDeps to resolve the contents of modules and their external dependencies. Their are many techniques used by modules too dynamically load other modules and resources. Some of these are not detected by Module::ScanDeps. DateTime::TimeZone is a notorious example. I've found, for example, that anything loaded with Module::Pluggable also fails to be detected. You can run Module::ScanDeps yourself to get a pretty good idea of how it will resolve a particular module: % scandeps.pl -e'use DateTime; use DateTime::TimeZone' You'll see that it's missing all the timezones, eg: DateTime::TimeZone::Australia::Melbourne has not been detected. If all else fails, you could try installing your modules to a private lib, as prescribed by Dominus, http://perlmonks.com/?node_id=682025, then creating a PAR archive from that. Hope this helps. Cheers David On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Toby Wintermute wrote: > Hmm, > I encountered an odd problem with DateTime::TimeZone today. > > When using it via a PAR archive, it refused to determine the local timezone. > (This was on a Debian Etch fresh install, albeit with upgraded PAR > libraries, since the normal Etch ones are quite broken, and then > confirmed on an Ubuntu Hardy setup as well.) > > The test script that fails: > ----------------timetest.pl------------ > #!/usr/bin/perl > use strict; > use warnings; > > use DateTime; > use DateTime::TimeZone; > > my $tz = DateTime::TimeZone->new( name => 'local' ); > print "Success!\n"; > ---------------------------- > > Create the PAR with: > pp -o datetime.par -M DateTime::Locale::en timetest.pl > (That's on Etch.. If I'm on Hardy I need an extra: -M > DateTime::TimeZone::Local::Unix ) > > Then execute it: > parl datetime.par timetest.pl > > I get "Cannot determine local time zone", rather than "Success!", on > both Etch and Hardy. > > DateTime versions: > Etch - 0.35 > Hardy - 0.42 and then 0.4501 > > DateTime::TimeZone versions: > Etch - 0.42 > Hardy - 0.7701 and then 0.8301 > > Any thoughts if I'm Doing It Wrong, before I submit to RT? > > Cheers, > Toby > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > From tjc at wintrmute.net Mon Dec 22 15:01:51 2008 From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Wintermute) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:01:51 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] DateTime::TimeZone breaking under PAR? In-Reply-To: <20081222151538.68FA29D9B@mailout.melmac.se> References: <20081222151538.68FA29D9B@mailout.melmac.se> Message-ID: 2008/12/23 Johan Lindstr?m : > At 08:18 2008-12-22, Toby Wintermute wrote: >> >> When using it via a PAR archive, it refused to determine the local >> timezone. >> (This was on a Debian Etch fresh install, albeit with upgraded PAR >> libraries, since the normal Etch ones are quite broken, and then >> confirmed on an Ubuntu Hardy setup as well.) > > Usually when things don't work under PAR/PerlApp/etc it's dynamically loaded > modules that weren't packaged properly. > > I see you force DateTime::Locale::en to be packaged, presumably because it > blew up without it. But there may be other modules it needs too. Presumably > related to the time zone stuff. > > A super quick look in DateTime::TimeZone reveals a runtime require of > DateTime::TimeZone::* . > > What if you manually add them all to the PAR file? > > (I usually put use statements in the source for this, with a comment saying > it's for PAR). A couple of other people have said it's a failure of Module::ScanDeps to correctly identify all the required modules.. Some of which are attempted to be loaded via a string-eval.. It makes sense, I suppose, since the name of the module it attempts to load is generated procedurally.. but is a pain. Manually adding all the DateTime::TimeZone::* files (and while one is at it, the TZ::Locale::* files) did indeed fix the problem. However, this seems like a wider problem with using PAR files.. How do you detect undetected runtime requirements? Just install *every* requirement to a private INC, then PAR it in it's entirety? Thanks for the help, Toby From tjc at wintrmute.net Mon Dec 22 15:03:51 2008 From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Wintermute) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:03:51 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perl 5 now uses Git for version control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In case you didn't catch this elsewhere: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: L?on Brocard Date: 2008/12/22 Subject: Perl 5 now uses Git for version control Now you know what I've been working on for the last few months! Feel free to forward and repost elsewhere. L?on HOLLAND, Michigan - The Perl Foundation has migrated Perl 5 to the Git version control system, making it easier than ever for Perl's development team to continue to improve the language that powers many websites. Moving from Perforce to git provides a number of benefits to the Perl community: - With a public repository and Git's extensive support for distributed and offline work, working on Perl 5's source becomes easier for everyone involved. - Because Git is open source, all developers now have equal access to the tools required to work on Perl's codebase. - Core committers have less administrative work to do when integrating contributed changes. - Developers outside the core team can more easily work on experimental changes to Perl before proposing them for inclusion in the next release. - A vast array of improved repository and change analysis tools are now available to Perl's developers. - The new Git repository includes every version of Perl 5 ever released, as well as every revision made during development. Interested developers can get a copy of the Perl 5 Git repository at at http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git In true open source style, Sam Vilain converted Perl's history from Perforce to Git. He did the work both in his spare time and in time donated by his employer, Catalyst IT. He spent more than a year building custom tools to transform 21 years of Perl history into the first ever unified repository of every single change to Perl. In addition to changes from Perforce, Sam patched together a comprehensive view of Perl's history incorporating publicly available snapshot releases, changes from historical mailing list archives and patch sets recovered from the hard drives of previous Perl release engineers. Perl 5 is used by businesses around the world including the BBC, Amazon.com, LiveJournal, Ticketmaster, Craigslist and IMDb. Larry Wall created Perl in 1987 while working as a systems administrator for NASA. Larry released Perl 1.000 on December 18th 1987. Over the past 21 years, Perl has grown into a high-level, general-purpose, dynamic programming language and is widely used for Web development, Systems Administration, Genomics and in many other disciplines. The most recent major version of Perl 5 (5.10.0) was released one year ago. Git is an open source version control system designed to handle very large projects with speed and efficiency. Created by Linus Torvalds, the inventor of Linux to handle the vast number of contributions to the Linux Kernel, Git is highly flexible and extensible. Perl's motto, "There's More Than One Way To Do It!" perfectly matches the Git workflow. Nicholas Clark, the manager for Perl 5.8.9 which was released this week, said "I'm looking forward to Git giving me the ability to work either online or offline. Perforce is great when I have a network connection, but until now those times when I've been trying to develop on trains or planes, at stations or airports, I'm back in the 'dark ages' before version control. Git solves this problem and more". The hardware behind this and the systems administration time to maintain it is donated by Booking.com. Booking.com has also recently donated $50,000 to The Perl Foundation, to aid in the further development and maintenance of the Perl programming language in general, and Perl 5.10 in particular. Perl originally used the Revision Control System (RCS) until March 1997 when it switched to the Perforce Software Configuration Management System. The Perforce repository was graciously hosted and maintained, free of charge, by ActiveState. Perforce provided the core developers with powerful tools, but these tools were not available to users outside the core team. The switch to Git removes this barrier. About The Perl Foundation (http://www.perlfoundation.org/) | The Perl Foundation is dedicated to the advancement of the Perl programming language through open discussion, collaboration, design, and code. The Perl Foundation coordinates the efforts of numerous grass-roots Perl-based groups, including: International Yet Another Perl Conferences (YAPC's), Carries the legal responsibility for Perl 5 and Perl 6 and the Artistic and Artistic 2.0 licenses, perl.org, Perl Mongers, and PerlMonks. About Booking.com (http://www.booking.com/) | Booking.com is part of Priceline.com (Nasdaq: PCLN). Its website attracts an average of 30 million unique visitors each month. Booking.com works with more than 57,000 affiliated hotels in 15,000 destinations around the world. Its services are available in 21 languages. Booking.com currently has 24 offices in Amsterdam, Athens, Barcelona, Berlin, Cambridge, Cape Town, Dubai, Dublin, London, Loul? (Portugal), Lyon, Madrid, Moscow, Munich, New York, Orlando, Paris, Rome, San Francisco, Sydney, Singapore, Stockholm, Vienna and Warsaw. About Catalyst IT (NZ) Ltd (http://www.catalyst.net.nz/) | Catalyst IT is New Zealand's premiere Open Source development house. Catalyst looks after the development requirements for the NZ Electoral Enrolment Centre, manage the .NZ registry, the largest NZ newspaper's online presence, the NZ TAB and many other exciting projects, and are organising the 2010 Australasian Linux Conference to be held in Wellington, New Zealand. From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Dec 22 16:17:28 2008 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:17:28 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] DateTime::TimeZone breaking under PAR? In-Reply-To: (Toby Wintermute's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:01:51 +1100") References: <20081222151538.68FA29D9B@mailout.melmac.se> Message-ID: <87abaniw2v.fsf@rimspace.net> "Toby Wintermute" writes: > 2008/12/23 Johan Lindstr?m : >> At 08:18 2008-12-22, Toby Wintermute wrote: [administratively, it would be nice if you didn't CC subscription-only mailing lists in your posts; I am not a member of London.pm, so anything that goes to them is held for moderation...] >>> When using it via a PAR archive, it refused to determine the local >>> timezone. (This was on a Debian Etch fresh install, albeit with >>> upgraded PAR libraries, since the normal Etch ones are quite broken, >>> and then confirmed on an Ubuntu Hardy setup as well.) [...] > It makes sense, I suppose, since the name of the module it attempts to > load is generated procedurally.. but is a pain. > Manually adding all the DateTime::TimeZone::* files (and while one is > at it, the TZ::Locale::* files) did indeed fix the problem. > > However, this seems like a wider problem with using PAR files.. It is, and it isn't ? the model of automatically scanning for dependencies is good, but is never a substitute for knowing your tools. Part of the reason for avoiding PAR in favour of something that packages CPAN modules whole is that it saves you, the developer, needing to do as much work to understand the dependency model *inside* the Perl module. > How do you detect undetected runtime requirements? Exhaustive tests, run on the packaged version of the code, not just the blib version. > Just install *every* requirement to a private INC, then PAR it in it's > entirety? That isn't a bad strategy; using something to build PAR files of CPAN modules whole, rather than installing them on your system and using the dependency detection, also works. (You can, naturally, merge those PAR files into your final distribution, giving you the same "statically linked" final product.) Regards, Daniel PAR, bringing back memories of shipping C++ application software on a dozen Unix derivatives, and the work required to manage testing and distribution there. From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au Sun Dec 28 20:35:46 2008 From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:35:46 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Australia's garbage computer training offerings Message-ID: Hello I have scoured the earth looking for any Australian computer trainers that can meet my needs. I am a maths graduate who's starting programming as a beginner. I have messed about with python, java and perl. Cost is not a real issue. I am prepared to pay for a good course taught by people who know their stuff. More important is to do a course online that covers the specifics of programming: OOP, applets etc. The language also isn't that important. I would even be prepared to give Perl another go in spite of my expressed distaste for it on this list! The learning style matters - those 5 day intensive things are no good for me. Rather, I prefer a course that is spread out over time. TAFE is too vague in its course descriptors. Postgraduate uni costs the earth and I don't understand that fee help business. I am reluctant to take a chance on a course for fear of not getting what, I assume, is one of a very limited number of fee help places. So, as a last resort I have had to look overseas even with losses through exchange rates. There are no courses online in Australia that meet my needs, as undemanding as I consider my needs to be. Thus I have found an excellent overseas online course from the US and have enrolled. It teaches all programming including Perl. But I will be starting with a general intro course on OOP. I won't say what the school is - that may not be appropriate on this list. But to give the most unsubtle attempt at a cryptic clue you would be Irish if you couldn't guess it. I am both disappointed and surprised at the lack of IT offerings in Australia. With all due respect to the people reading this who teach Perl, you are not focused on people like me. Rather, your market is corporate where the employer pays for the training and the employee takes 5 days off work to do intensive Perl training. In itself that is not objectionable since it's a valid market. But it does zap out people like me. Paul Keating spoke of Australia being the clever country. In the world of IT training we are the very very dumb country. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alfiejohn at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 21:28:02 2008 From: alfiejohn at gmail.com (Alfie John) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:28:02 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Australia's garbage computer training offerings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:35 PM, John Thornton wrote: > Hello > > I have scoured the earth looking for any Australian > computer trainers that can meet my needs. I am a maths graduate who's > starting programming as a beginner. I have messed about with python, java > and perl. > > > > Cost is not a real issue. I am prepared to pay for a > good course taught by people who know their stuff. More important is to do a > course online that covers the specifics of programming: OOP, applets etc. > The language also isn't that important. I would even be prepared to give > Perl another go in spite of my expressed distaste for it on this list! The > learning style matters ? those 5 day intensive things are no good for me. > Rather, I prefer a course that is spread out over time. > Is taking a course that important to you? Why not just bunker down with a good book or two. If you are just starting out programming, I suggest not looking at Perl. Once again, Perl is not suited as an introduction to programming. Perl is like a fine V.S.O.P. If it's your first ever swig of alcohol, you're going to be put off very quickly. Ease yourself into it with alcopops like Python and Pascal and don't forget to stay away from the cheap casks like Java. If you are looking for specifics such as Applets, I think Java and Flash are your only options. However you might want to try Python since it was developed specifically to teach people how to program. I've found "Learning Python" by Mark Lutz to be a good intro. Forget about the specifics for now e.g. OOP and Applets. Stick with learning general programming. There is no point learning the intricacies of multiplexed IO if you don't even know what a byte is yet. It will take time but if you stick at it, you should start seeing progress soon. Alfie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benhare at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 21:52:18 2008 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:52:18 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Australia's garbage computer training offerings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <822765280812282152y64926e60u7a7542feb703d8ce@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Alfie John wrote: > Hi John, > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:35 PM, John Thornton > wrote: >> >> Hello >> >> I have scoured the earth looking for any >> Australian computer trainers that can meet my needs. I am a maths graduate >> who's starting programming as a beginner. I have messed about with python, >> java and perl. >> >> >> >> Cost is not a real issue. I am prepared to pay for >> a good course taught by people who know their stuff. More important is to do >> a course online that covers the specifics of programming: OOP, applets etc. >> The language also isn't that important. I would even be prepared to give >> Perl another go in spite of my expressed distaste for it on this list! The >> learning style matters ? those 5 day intensive things are no good for me. >> Rather, I prefer a course that is spread out over time. > > Is taking a course that important to you? Why not just bunker down with a > good book or two. couldn't agree more. why do you have to have someone teach you everything? at least at this stage? there's plenty you can do yourself. also, a course i took at a tafe college here turned out to be the best course i've ever taken. my australian training allowed me to work all over the world too so it can't be that bad. of course, it was also due to my own hard work and self learning. ps: i can't think offhand what course that is so top o' the mornin' to ya. [1] Regards, Ben. 1. HARE > If you are just starting out programming, I suggest not > looking at Perl. Once again, Perl is not suited as an introduction to > programming. Perl is like a fine V.S.O.P. If it's your first ever swig of > alcohol, you're going to be put off very quickly. Ease yourself into it with > alcopops like Python and Pascal and don't forget to stay away from the cheap > casks like Java. > > If you are looking for specifics such as Applets, I think Java and Flash are > your only options. However you might want to try Python since it was > developed specifically to teach people how to program. I've found "Learning > Python" by Mark Lutz to be a good intro. > > Forget about the specifics for now e.g. OOP and Applets. Stick with learning > general programming. There is no point learning the intricacies of > multiplexed IO if you don't even know what a byte is yet. It will take time > but if you stick at it, you should start seeing progress soon. > > Alfie > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > From wayland at wayland.id.au Sun Dec 28 23:30:48 2008 From: wayland at wayland.id.au (Timothy S. Nelson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:30:48 +1100 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Australia's garbage computer training offerings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, John Thornton wrote: > Cost is not a real issue. I am prepared to pay for a good course > taught by people who know their stuff. More important is to do a course online that covers > the specifics of programming: OOP, applets etc. The language also isn?t that important. I > would even be prepared to give Perl another go in spite of my expressed distaste for it on > this list! The learning style matters ? those 5 day intensive things are no good for me. In response to those (not John) who recommended that he get a good book, I agree that browsing the web or if necessary getting a book work would work for me, but I'm also aware that some people learn much better from another person than they do from a book. If that wasn't the case, corporate training wouldn't exist. If he has the money, I think he should be free to choose a learning style that suits him. > TAFE is too vague in its course descriptors. Only one solution to this (and it's not just TAFE, either :) ), talk to the people who will actually be running the TAFE course. > course from the US and have enrolled. It teaches all programming including Perl. But I will > be starting with a general intro course on OOP. I won?t say what the school is ? that may > not be appropriate on this list. But to give the most unsubtle attempt at a cryptic clue > you would be Irish if you couldn?t guess it. Feel free to say it; it may not always be appropriate to mention businesses, but since you're a happy customer rather than a spruiker, I reckon it's fair enough. > Australia. With all due respect to the people reading this who teach Perl, you are not > focused on people like me. Rather, your market is corporate where the employer pays for the > training and the employee takes 5 days off work to do intensive Perl training. In itself > that is not objectionable since it?s a valid market. But it does zap out people like me. It seems to me like what you really want is a Uni/TAFE style course, but have then objected to them due to either vagueness or cost. Rather than complaining to people in the corporate sector, I'd advise you to figure out how to address either the vagueness issue of TAFE (see my suggestion above), or the cost issue of Uni (Tip: have you tried talking this over with Centrelink? Maybe you should be looking at an undergrad unit instead of postgrad? Do you need certification, or just teaching?) > Paul Keating spoke of Australia being the clever country. In the world > of IT training we are the very very dumb country. Oh, I wouldn't go that far. The Australian system seems to be well set up for a lot of people, but it's more difficult for the few who fall into your situation. That'll mean a bit of extra work for you (ie. addressing the TAFE vagueness by contacting the person running the course), but hopefully that's not too onerous. :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | | E-mail: wayland at wayland.id.au | I am | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version 3.12 GCS d+++ s+: a- C++$ U+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+ N+ w--- V- PE(+) Y+>++ PGP->+++ R(+) !tv b++ DI++++ D G+ e++>++++ h! y- -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 29 01:25:15 2008 From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:25:15 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] graphics and programming Message-ID: <8A488A04BDB24BF8BCB4B2A3616B6AB8@homepc> Further to my points about training, I should explain a few more things. I am studying a Dip of graphics design: a totally computerized Diploma focused on Adobe programs; there is no real drawing etc bar a few thumbnail sketches. And that's fine. I couldn't draw a stick man. So when I started that Dip last year I got into programming for the first time. I have access to all the VTC tutorials as part of the Dip. Thus I looked at them. There was Perl, Java, C, computer forensics. Then I got some compilers and started to enjoy ruby and python. I am 33. I wish that I got into programming when I was 12 or 20. But it just never happened. I never played with a Commodore set or an Atari. In fact I left school utterly computer illiterate; I couldn't put a disk in the disk drive. That era was a garbage era for teaching kids computers. I wish that I had gone through the era 5 to 10 years later. So where I stand now is that I would like to program for 2 reasons [1] I like it and [2] I want to complement and extend my design Dip. At one pt I thought that Java might do this by being a language that does 3D graphics programming. Then I thought of Perl or PHP as web programming things. I have no real prejudices against any programming language. I have always used a Windows OS. Since people don't mind me saying the school for the OOP course is the O'Reilly School of Technology. Will I come back to Perl? It's possible. Have to think about it. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benhare at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 01:42:31 2008 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:42:31 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] graphics and programming In-Reply-To: <8A488A04BDB24BF8BCB4B2A3616B6AB8@homepc> References: <8A488A04BDB24BF8BCB4B2A3616B6AB8@homepc> Message-ID: <822765280812290142p39a42357p3ba36129c33b2015@mail.gmail.com> > > > Since people don't mind me saying the school for the OOP course > is the O'Reilly School of Technology. > lol!!!! oh no!!!!! looks like the joke really is on me!!! dammit!!! cheers, Ben. > > > Will I come back to Perl? It's possible. Have to think about it. > > > > John > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 29 01:44:56 2008 From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (ajthornton) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:44:56 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] graphics and programming In-Reply-To: <822765280812290142p39a42357p3ba36129c33b2015@mail.gmail.com> References: <8A488A04BDB24BF8BCB4B2A3616B6AB8@homepc> <822765280812290142p39a42357p3ba36129c33b2015@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A78F9B5AED14BFFA7D851B51F42FCB2@homepc> I am serious! If you google it it comes up. John -----Original Message----- From: Ben Hare [mailto:benhare at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 29 December 2008 8:43 PM To: John Thornton Cc: melbourne-pm at pm.org Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] graphics and programming > > > Since people don't mind me saying the school for the OOP course > is the O'Reilly School of Technology. > lol!!!! oh no!!!!! looks like the joke really is on me!!! dammit!!! cheers, Ben. > > > Will I come back to Perl? It's possible. Have to think about it. > > > > John > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > From benhare at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 01:47:47 2008 From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:47:47 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] graphics and programming In-Reply-To: <5A78F9B5AED14BFFA7D851B51F42FCB2@homepc> References: <8A488A04BDB24BF8BCB4B2A3616B6AB8@homepc> <822765280812290142p39a42357p3ba36129c33b2015@mail.gmail.com> <5A78F9B5AED14BFFA7D851B51F42FCB2@homepc> Message-ID: <822765280812290147wc612e89o60b7d6a37e0a0603@mail.gmail.com> yeah i know! what i mean is, i specifically referenced my irish name saying "i can't think of that school" and the name is of course, a very common irish name - o'reilly!!! On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:44 PM, ajthornton wrote: > I am serious! If you google it it comes up. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Hare [mailto:benhare at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, 29 December 2008 8:43 PM > To: John Thornton > Cc: melbourne-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] graphics and programming > >> >> >> Since people don't mind me saying the school for the OOP > course >> is the O'Reilly School of Technology. >> > > lol!!!! oh no!!!!! looks like the joke really is on me!!! dammit!!! > > cheers, > > Ben. > >> >> >> Will I come back to Perl? It's possible. Have to think about > it. >> >> >> >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Melbourne-pm mailing list >> Melbourne-pm at pm.org >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm >> > > From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 29 02:33:55 2008 From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:33:55 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] comparing languages table Message-ID: For anyone who is interested, here is a cross table of 9 programming languages including Perl: http://www.jvoegele.com/software/langcomp.html I can't vouch for its correctness or otherwise; a lot of the terms are foreign to me I am sure that there are people on this mailing list who would know what the tables and discussions mean. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alfiejohn at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 02:43:53 2008 From: alfiejohn at gmail.com (Alfie John) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:43:53 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] graphics and programming In-Reply-To: <8A488A04BDB24BF8BCB4B2A3616B6AB8@homepc> References: <8A488A04BDB24BF8BCB4B2A3616B6AB8@homepc> Message-ID: > So when I started that Dip last year I got into programming > for the first time. I have access to all the VTC tutorials as part of the > Dip. Thus I looked at them. There was Perl, Java, C, computer forensics? > > > > Then I got some compilers and started to enjoy ruby and > python. I am 33. I wish that I got into programming when I was 12 or 20. But > it just never happened. > We can all think of things to wish away. I don't see you starting programming at 33 to be a problem. > So where I stand now is that I would like to program for 2 > reasons [1] I like it and [2] I want to complement and extend my design Dip. > > Sounds like you've caught the programming bug :) > At one pt I thought that Java might do this by being a language that does > 3D graphics programming. Then I thought of Perl or PHP as web programming > things. > It sucks when people pigeon hole things before they get the full picture. Maybe you should check out the following: http://sdl.perl.org/ http://pygame.org/wiki/about Java can also do 3D graphics, but I also think it's not a great introduction to programming. Alfie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alec.clews at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 03:35:32 2008 From: alec.clews at gmail.com (Alec Clews) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:35:32 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Australia's garbage computer training offerings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4958B604.2040400@gmail.com> Education of IT professionals is one of my little hobby horses and I wrote some pithy words on what I thought were important topics for a novice developer to target in the first few months and years http://alecthegeek.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/what-a-young-developer-needs-to-know/ It's only my personal opinion and I claim no special expertise beyond general IT technical background. Please feel free to critique Alfie John wrote: > Hi John, > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:35 PM, John Thornton > > wrote: > > Hello > > I have scoured the earth looking for any Australian computer > trainers that can meet my needs. I am a maths graduate who's > starting programming as a beginner. I have messed about with > python, java and perl. > > Cost is not a real issue. I am prepared to pay for a good course > taught by people who know their stuff. More important is to do a > course online that covers the specifics of programming: OOP, > applets etc. The language also isn't that important. I would even > be prepared to give Perl another go in spite of my expressed > distaste for it on this list! The learning style matters ? those 5 > day intensive things are no good for me. Rather, I prefer a course > that is spread out over time. > > > Is taking a course that important to you? Why not just bunker down > with a good book or two. If you are just starting out programming, I > suggest not looking at Perl. Once again, Perl is not suited as an > introduction to programming. Perl is like a fine V.S.O.P. If it's your > first ever swig of alcohol, you're going to be put off very quickly. > Ease yourself into it with alcopops like Python and Pascal and don't > forget to stay away from the cheap casks like Java. > > If you are looking for specifics such as Applets, I think Java and > Flash are your only options. However you might want to try Python > since it was developed specifically to teach people how to program. > I've found "Learning Python" by Mark Lutz to be a good intro. > > Forget about the specifics for now e.g. OOP and Applets. Stick with > learning general programming. There is no point learning the > intricacies of multiplexed IO if you don't even know what a byte is > yet. It will take time but if you stick at it, you should start seeing > progress soon. > > Alfie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Dec 29 03:52:54 2008 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:52:54 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Australia's garbage computer training offerings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4958BA16.6090409@perltraining.com.au> John Thornton wrote: > I have scoured the earth looking for any > Australian computer trainers that can meet my needs. I am a maths > graduate who?s starting programming as a beginner. I have messed about > with python, Java and Perl. You have a fine skill-set to go on our courses. > Cost is not a real issue. I am prepared to pay > for a good course taught by people who know their stuff. More important > is to do a course online that covers the specifics of programming: OOP, > applets etc. The language also isn?t that important. You have a very specialised idea of what the specifics of programming are. I would say that the really general concepts you need to know about are: * variable types (depends on your language, but once you've done the basic type(s) you must also have a firm handle on lists/arrays and hashes/dictionaries) * how to make more complex data structures (arrays of arrays, arrays of hashes, hashes of array, hashes of hashes, mixed hashes etc) and how to print them in a human readable form * typical functions/concepts you should be able to rely on most languages to provide you with (print, string length, array length, hash keys etc) * control flow (while, conditionals etc) and how to make appropriate decisions about structure, conditional choices etc * function/subroutine declaration and usage (including why and when you'd break things into such) * creating libraries/modules, understanding name spaces and packages etc * using existing libraries, and OO interfaces to those * file input/output, directory interaction, system interaction, security * problem solving in an imperative paradigm Once you have a firm understanding of all of these concepts in one language, you have a very good chance of moving them across to another (imperative) language. You will always have to remember that just because you learned it one way, doesn't mean that's the best way. There are numerous things that Perl does better than C (for example), but there are also lots of things that Perl does that are an embarrassment which many are looking forward to losing in Perl 6 (most of the special variables for example). Likewise you'll find that there are numerous things that Java does better than but if you know Java well enough, you'll be aware of it's flaws too and able to appreciate the things that does better than it. I personally feel that object oriented programming is a paradigm better learned after you've got all the general concepts down. In Perl you can use objects provided by other classes without having to understand much more than the synopsis and I think this is brilliant. But even without Perl, I'd prefer teaching C before C++ or Java. So I, as a trainer, would list OOP and applets as a nice extra in a course about programming, not as a key feature. > The learning style matters ? those 5 day intensive > things are no good for me. Rather, I prefer a course that is spread out > over time. There are two possible styles of running a course. An x-day intensive version or one which is spread out. From a logistical point of view, x-day intensive courses are cheaper to run (lab hire is per day or half day not per hour (owning labs is even more expensive); trainers can be sent all over the country as required rather than being required to be in a given place every Thursday afternoon), involve a lot less organisation (people are either there or not there for the whole course, not turning up half way through or dropping out) and are easy to sell. When an employer decides they want their employee to know a language, they want that employee to know the language as soon as possible; not after a 6 month long course during which circumstances might make it impossible to keep giving that employee appropriate leave to make it to classes. So commercial businesses have to run intensive courses. The few times that Perl Training Australia has considered running evening or weekend courses (and especially the few times when employers have asked us to consider it) the interest from possible attendees has been nil. People in 9 to 5 jobs would much rather miss a week from work to learn a new skill than give up their very precious evenings and weekends - even if that skill makes them more employable. I don't blame them either. This is fine, because we have the higher education sector to cover those who want to learn over time. > TAFE is too vague in its course descriptors. > Postgraduate uni costs the earth and I don?t understand that fee help > business. I am reluctant to take a chance on a course for fear of not > getting what, I assume, is one of a very limited number of fee help > places. You say above that cost isn't a real issue but perhaps it is. I doubt you'd really want to do a full postgraduate university degree anyway; chances are it would be overkill. A TAFE diploma in programming should cover pretty much everything you need to know. If their course descriptions are too vague do some more research. Go in and talk to the lecturer about what the course will cover, or link us a few courses you'd consider taking and ask us for our advice. Vagueness is a poor excuse; it'd be better just to say that you'd rather not go to TAFE. > So, as a last resort I have had to look overseas > even with losses through exchange rates. There are no courses online in > Australia that meet my needs, as undemanding as I consider my needs to > be. Online training is a whole lot of work for very little gain. It's easy enough to video sessions and put them online, but for skills like programming it's important to be able to ask questions; get assistance when your program doesn't compile and you can't spot why; get feedback on why your solution is taking so long to run. Even with that aside, customers expect online training courses to cost less than face to face courses; but that's only possible if you're getting sufficient demand for them. I would hate to think of how long it would cost to recoup the initial time investment if I were to generate a high quality online course; yet alone the time required to keep the content up-to-date. Small businesses like mine can't afford it. Even the bigger businesses like IIT can't afford it. Don't underestimate the time required for keeping the course up to date; we spend between 1 and 2 days after every single course, adjusting our course notes so they'll be better for the next run. Your needs aren't particularly demanding, but the Australian market is not big enough to make it efficient for Australian companies to meet them. > I am both disappointed and surprised at the lack of > IT offerings in Australia. With all due respect to the people reading > this who teach Perl, you are not focused on people like me. Rather, your > market is corporate where the employer pays for the training and the > employee takes 5 days off work to do intensive Perl training. In itself > that is not objectionable since it?s a valid market. But it does zap out > people like me. We don't see much evidence that there are masses of people like you. We get less than 1 such enquiry a year (certainly less than 7 in the 7 years we've been in business). Since we're training about 150 people per year, it isn't cost efficient for us to adjust our course styles for that < 1%. I'm fairly certain that most people with your requirements choose to learn from a book, online tutorial or - more often - a TAFE course. We make our course notes available on line for precisely this reason. If someone wants to learn Perl, and is able and willing to do so from a book, then we'd rather they use our book than anyone else's. We provide free support for our course notes and answer any questions people who are self-learning may have. Although our exercises and answers files aren't available for download from our website, that's neither an insurmountable barrier to those learning Perl nor something that can't be overcome with a polite request to us. ;) John Thornton also wrote: > I am 33. I wish that I got into programming when I was 12 or 20. > But it just never happened. I never played with a Commodore set or > an Atari. In fact I left school utterly computer illiterate; I > couldn?t put a disk in the disk drive. That era was a garbage era > for teaching kids computers. I wish that I had gone through the > era 5 to 10 years later. A good many of us are the same age as you. Some of us were lucky and didn't leave school computer illiterate, and perhaps others of us did. I realise that that era had great diversity in the quality of "computer lessons" (all of mine were pretty bad too) but I'd never have thought of calling it "garbage". When I left school I could use a computer to run applications (games and otherwise), but had very little other interest in them. Still I... bravely chose a Software Engineering degree and learned a whole lot more at university. I don't view being 33 as much of a hurdle to your learning to program though. The biggest issue is whether you can make the time to do so; finding free time is so much easier when you're younger and your parents or Centerlink will support your learning. As you have stated that you're not a huge fan of Perl, I thought I'd point out that there are a whole host of other programming user groups in Melbourne which may be able to further assist you. You can find the list of the ones I know about at http://perl.net.au/wiki/Melbourne#User_Groups_-_Software_Development All the best, J From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Dec 29 05:08:38 2008 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 00:08:38 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] comparing languages table In-Reply-To: (John Thornton's message of "Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:33:55 +1100") References: Message-ID: <87vdt39lih.fsf@rimspace.net> "John Thornton" writes: For those short on time, the executive summary: This is an outdated, inaccurate, misleading, poorly informed survey that fails to effectively cover the limited material it aims for, let alone addressing any language developments in the last ten years. > For anyone who is interested, here is a cross table of 9 programming > languages including Perl: > > http://www.jvoegele.com/software/langcomp.html > > I can?t vouch for its correctness or otherwise; a lot of the terms are > foreign to me I am sure that there are people on this mailing list who > would know what the tables and discussions mean. Well, it is vaguely correct, but frequently meaningless: many of the statements are useless, in the sense that "football is a game with a ball" is useless ? not actually untrue, but not helpful. For example, Ruby has "pure" OO support. This is, arguably, true, but the implementation of the language makes this radically different from the "pure" OO implementation in Smalltalk. Not to mention that "pure" is a very dubious concept when it comes to object oriented programming; they also fail to identify some factors such as 'autobox', which allows Perl to treat scalar values as first class objects... It is also notable that they assume that OO programing requires that "all operations are messages to objects", which is not actually true. CLOS is definitely object oriented, but did not treat any operations in that fashion ? and neither does any other multiple dispatch language. Further, they make the mistake of dividing typing into a one-axis "static vs dynamic" distinction. This is extremely wrong, since it completely discards critical differences: C++ has "static" typing, while Perl has "dynamic" ? but this disregards the ability to transform blobs of memory under C++ bypassing the type system, while Perl retains strong type information at all times.[1] This is, again, not actually wrong, just very misleading. Furthermore, their garbage collection entry is wrong: C++ with garbage collection has multiple implementation, and their Ruby entry presumably only covers one implementation ? the JVM and CLR based Ruby interpreters have, naturally, different GC properties... The design-by-contract entry is simply wrong, their multithreading entry is extremely misleading[2] as well as wrong[3], as is their regular expressions entry, and their "built in security" section is extremely weakly defined, significantly misleading, and again neglects the various non-MRI Ruby interpreters, not to mention the non-mainline Pythons... Finally, citing a study that is widely considered weak is not the ... best approach to a well supported argument, and this "survey" includes one as part of the consideration. I guess they were up-front about how bad it was, anyway. So, yeah, overall: not what I would call a reliable survey of the languages. Plus, they missed a number of features like Hindley Milner type inference that, you know, are really fairly important these days. Regards, Daniel Footnotes: [1] Plentiful conversions conveniently embedded in the language make this fairly transparent to the user, but the language has "strong" typing, unlike "weak" C/C++ typing. [2] It claims that C++ has multithreading support via libraries; the language itself has no thread support, and is not specifically thread safe, although implementations can be. [3] Perl has threads. From paul at dwerryhouse.com.au Mon Dec 29 16:34:57 2008 From: paul at dwerryhouse.com.au (Paul Dwerryhouse) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:34:57 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] LWP/https timeout issue Message-ID: <20081230003457.GA19459@dwerryhouse.com.au> Hi all, I've run across a small issue when using LWP with https connections, in that it completely ignores the 'timeout' parameter. A quick way to demonstrate this is with the following example I've taken from a Redhat bug report (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=460716): If you run the this command to an IP address that doesn't exist, it will timeout after one second, as requested: lwp-request -uxS -t 1 http://10.0.0.42/ However, if you change it so that it uses https instead, it ignores the timeout parameter (and thus takes much longer to die): lwp-request -uxS -t 1 https://10.0.0.42/ The above bug report mentions a workaround that involves modifying LWP/Protocol/http.pm and Net/HTTPS.pm - I've tested this, and it fixes it, but I'd really prefer not to have this be a requirement for my code when it is finished. Just wondering if anyone has hit this issue before, or if someone could think of a way that I could work around this from my own code... To complicate matters, I'm not calling LWP directly, but rather using it via SOAP::Lite: $soap_conn = SOAP::Lite ->uri('url:Blah::Handler') ->proxy('https://localhost:81/blah',timeout => 5); $response = $soap_conn->function( SOAP::Data->name('param' => 'whatever'))->result; Cheers, Paul -- Paul Dwerryhouse | PGP Key ID: 0x6B91B584 From cas at taz.net.au Mon Dec 29 16:53:10 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:53:10 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Australia's garbage computer training offerings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081230005310.GA10243@taz.net.au> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 03:35:46PM +1100, John Thornton wrote: > I am both disappointed and surprised at the lack of IT offerings in > Australia. With all due respect to the people reading this who teach > Perl, you are not focused on people like me. Rather, your market is > corporate where the employer pays for the training and the employee > takes 5 days off work to do intensive Perl training. In itself that > is not objectionable since it's a valid market. But it does zap out > people like me. i assume you're referring to Perl Training Australia. Their courses are expensive and tailored to the corporate market as you say. They are also, however, very very good. They are intended for people with programming experience who need to learn perl or improve their existing perl skills. Fortunately, they also cater for "people like you" (and me) too. If you can't afford the fees then you can download the course notes(*) for several of their courses for free, and work through them on your own time at your own pace. http://perltraining.com.au/notes.html highly recommended. buy a copy of the Camel book ("Programming Perl" pub by O'Reilly & Assoc.), and start with PTA's Programming Perl course ("progperl.pdf"). Follow that up with Object Oriented Perl. Then the others as suits your needs/interests. most of all, practice. progperl.pdf starts from the basics of programming in a very clear and easy to follow manner. if you can't learn perl (and generic programming concepts) using this tutorial, then you may as well give up even trying anything else. (*) actually, they're more like step-by-step tutorials rather than just "notes". > Paul Keating spoke of Australia being the clever country. In the > world of IT training we are the very very dumb country. or perhaps we're the land of the whingers. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #46: waste water tank overflowed onto computer From jdthornton at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 29 21:49:11 2008 From: jdthornton at ozemail.com.au (John Thornton) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:49:11 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks and thoughts on Perl Message-ID: <7FEFAE807DC146D9894727FAAEC79910@homepc> Thanks to all who responded. Now I have so much to think about. This will probably be my last post on this list; I am not a Perl programmer and will be looking into Python, Ruby etc lists that I do program in. My thoughts on how I like to learn to program: [1] Playing with the program after skimming through a tutorial. For instance in python 3.0 it is interesting that 4*'cat' catcatcatcat But I found this: 0*'cat' ' ' -5*'cat' ' ' In other words any number<0 0r =0 multiplied by a string gets the single quotes with nothing between. Can't work out why that is. [2] Modifying a program that already works. For instance I took a Ruby calculator program and added the ** exponentiation function to it. [3] comparing the same idea in different languages such as a loop. Perl and Java are very hard to do [1] and [2] with. [3] might be possible in them. Ruby and Python are easy for doing all 3. Perl might be a great language. But I have not found it to be beginner friendly for tyros like me. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Dec 29 23:04:06 2008 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:04:06 +1100 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] thanks and thoughts on Perl In-Reply-To: <7FEFAE807DC146D9894727FAAEC79910@homepc> (John Thornton's message of "Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:49:11 +1100") References: <7FEFAE807DC146D9894727FAAEC79910@homepc> Message-ID: <877i5i9mah.fsf@rimspace.net> "John Thornton" writes: > Thanks to all who responded. Now I have so much to think about. This > will probably be my last post on this list; I am not a Perl programmer > and will be looking into Python, Ruby etc lists that I do program in. > > My thoughts on how I like to learn to program: > > [1] Playing with the program after skimming through a tutorial. For > instance in python 3.0 it is interesting that > > 4*?cat? > catcatcatcat > > But I found this: > 0*?cat? > ?? > -5*?cat? > ?? > > In other words any number<0 0r =0 multiplied by a string gets the > single quotes with nothing between. Can?t work out why that is. Because python 3 presumably overloads number '*' string as 'repeat the string number times', and zero or less copies of 'cat' are the empty string, ''. > [2] Modifying a program that already works. For instance I took a Ruby > calculator program and added the ** exponentiation function to it. > > [3] comparing the same idea in different languages such as a loop. You might find more value addressing yourself to higher level concepts than loops, in your assessment of different languages. That is, at the end of the day, a trivial bit of syntax that matters very little. You did say "such as" here, so perhaps you already are comparing interesting features rather than trivialities... > Perl and Java are very hard to do [1] and [2] with. Regarding example one: Perl may require a little reading, but "'cat' x 4" does what you might expect from the Python version; the multiplication operator gives you integer conversion of the string, then numeric multiplication. I can't really comment on Java, but the example given is so trivial is to be more or less meaningless in most cases. As to option two: as stated, this is more or less impossible to comment on. The question, for me, is "did you find it difficult because you didn't understand the language you were using, or because you found a bad program to modify, or because the language was actually hard?" > [3] might be possible in them. Ruby and Python are easy for doing all > 3. Perl might be a great language. But I have not found it to be > beginner friendly for tyros like me. Great. Good luck with whatever language you do select, then. Regards, Daniel