From tjc at wintrmute.net  Tue Oct  2 02:11:38 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:11:38 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Meeting ideas
In-Reply-To: <20070928053510.GD23021@joshheumann.com>
References: <46FC90E9.8040008@perltraining.com.au>
	<20070928053510.GD23021@joshheumann.com>
Message-ID: <47020B4A.2050206@wintrmute.net>

Josh Heumann wrote:
> <quote who='Paul Fenwick' when='Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 03:28:09PM +1000'>
>> heard about these is that they've been an awful lot of fun.  If we were to
>> run a Perl trivia night (quite possibly at a pub), would you be interested?
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> pdx.pm does game night every so often, as it seems that programmers tend
> to also enjoy playing the same games.  They're always lots of fun, and
> it's pretty entertaining to learn some new games.

I'm always up for games nights (whether card, board, or PC based).. I'm
probably more interested in those than Perl trivia, actually, but that's
not saying I wouldn't come to such as well.

At the moment I'll probably come to anything though.. well, almost ;)
I'm in a hotel room in Richmond for the next two weeks, and have
strictly rationed amounts of mobile internet. (And am noticing just how
many sites are broken without images loaded, still.)

Toby

From tjc at wintrmute.net  Tue Oct  2 02:15:42 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:15:42 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Geek accomodation
In-Reply-To: <BD691F3D-2F53-4C39-933C-7A22C7109A26@meme.com.au>
References: <46F0B189.2030708@wintrmute.net>	<87ps0egb71.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>	<46F14DAA.60707@wintrmute.net>	<87lkb2hvbl.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>	<b08e1490709192248t5e79b8h2b1ce1a3abc023bb@mail.gmail.com>	<46F734F1.5030202@wintrmute.net>
	<BD691F3D-2F53-4C39-933C-7A22C7109A26@meme.com.au>
Message-ID: <47020C3E.90802@wintrmute.net>

Tony Smith wrote:
> Based purely on personal experience, of the inner suburban agents I'd
> give a plus to Biggin & Scott and a minus to Noel Jones. YMMV.
> 
> And while Sunshine seems to have become a fall back location of choice,
> none of the local agents there impressed me favourably. When I dealt
> with agents around Essendon my experiences were mostly better, but that
> was long ago.
> 
> However it always helps to assume they aren't going to go out of their
> way to do anything for you. Even with Biggin & Scott, if we hadn't kept
> up the pressure over a place we were keen to move into but which was
> awaiting maintenance, the subsequent positive relationship may have
> easily been missed.

I spoke to an agent (at Nicholson) today about a property which needed
some maintenance before I would consider it.. Their response was.. but
it just HAD been maintained: they repainted one of the rooms (badly).
Apparently fixing the shower or the blinds was too much effort, which
seems a bit insulting when you're talking about paying a thousand
dollars a month for the place. I mean, what's a new shower head worth?
Ah well, there are other places to look at.

Cheers for the advice on the other agents.
-Toby

> 
> On 24/09/2007, at 1:54 PM, Toby Corkindale wrote:
> 
>> One other question that comes to mind is - are there any estate
>> agents that one should avoid like the plague?
>>
> 
> 
> Tony Smith
> 
> 0405 499 718
> 
> TransForum Developer
> 
> http://www.transforum.net/
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Thu Oct  4 04:53:31 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:53:31 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC 2007 earlybird registration now open!
Message-ID: <4704D43B.2060804@perltraining.com.au>

I know you already know that it's open, but if you wanted more information, this
is the info that Arjen has sent out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Registration for the Open Source Developers' Conference 2007 is now
open.

    http://osdc.com.au/registration/

For non-presenters, the earlybird price is $275 (until October 14th),
after that the full conference price is $325.
All regular tickets include the conference dinner!
Cool & affordable, right?

Memory jogger: the OSDC 2007 conference dates are 26-29 November;
location: Brisbane, Queensland.

Peruse the overview of confirmed sessions at http://
www.cgpublisher.com/conferences/107/web/session_descriptions.html


You simply must be there, otherwise you're just not cool, and evil
geckos will eat your undies.


Cheers,
Arjen.
-- 
Arjen Lentz, Owner @ Open Query (http://openquery.com.au/)
Based in Brisbane, Australia - ph. +61-7-3103 0809
Open Source Experts, MySQL Specialists

Organising Committee, Open Source Developers Conference (http://
osdc.com.au/)
Brisbane QLD Australia, 26-29 November 2007




From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Thu Oct  4 09:15:29 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 18:15:29 +0200
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Transcribing the Perlcast Interview with Tom
	Limoncelli
Message-ID: <200710041815.29553.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

Hi all!

I started transcribing the Perlcast interview with Tom Limoncelli on the 
perl.net.au wiki:

http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perlcast_Transcript_-_Interview_with_Tom_Limoncelli

In the interview Josh McAdams (the Perlcast host) talks with Limoncelli about 
his book "Time Management for System Administrators". I found the interview 
very interesting and englihtening, and so decided to transcribe it (partially 
because I have a deaf friend, who may find the contents of the interview 
useful). 

The .mp3 with the interview can be found at:

http://perlcast.com/2006/02/09/interview-with-tom-limoncelli/

If anyone wishes to help with the transcripting process, just download 
the .mp3, follow the time marks on the wiki and save your work frequently.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
    -- An Israeli Linuxer

From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Sat Oct  6 20:43:28 2007
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 13:43:28 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next meeting - Wednesday 10th October - HiveMinder
	and Net::Jaiku
Message-ID: <470855E0.4000606@perltraining.com.au>

G'day everyone,

I'm glad to announce that Rick Measham and myself have agreed to give a talk
about useful web services.  I'm going to suggest these be scheduled for our
next Melb.pm meeting, unless we have any other talks planned.

	6:30pm	Wednesday 8th August

	Editure
	Level 8
	14 Blackwood St
	North Melbourne

== Effective Procrastination with HiveMinder (Paul Fenwick) ==

If you're like most people, you've got dozens of things that need doing.
Work, shopping, chores, programming, hobbies, tax, holidays, bills, and so
on.  You may have tried to keep a to-do list, but found it rapidly grew to
the point of being unmanageable.

Paul Fenwick will demonstrate the use of the free HiveMinder.com to-do
service to both manage tasks and to procrastinate effectively, allowing you
to focus only on the tasks that really need to be done.  We'll see how to
manage tasks via the web, via-email, and how to be really efficient via
instant messenger.

To conclude, we'll see how it's possible to add new features to HiveMinder
and some tricks and tips for doing so.

== Microblogging with Jaiku and Net::Jaiku (Rick Measham) ==

Net::Jaiku - an introduction to microblogging and lifestreaming, plus a
bonus: Using microblogging as a development tool.

---

Hope to see you there!

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Sun Oct  7 01:24:10 2007
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 18:24:10 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next meeting - Wednesday 10th October -
 HiveMinder and Net::Jaiku
In-Reply-To: <200710071749.41104.brendon.oliver@netratings.com.au>
References: <470855E0.4000606@perltraining.com.au>
	<200710071749.41104.brendon.oliver@netratings.com.au>
Message-ID: <470897AA.1000902@perltraining.com.au>

Brendon Oliver wrote:

>> 	6:30pm	Wednesday 8th August
> 
> Methinks you should revise the date!

D'oh!  That was supposed to read:

	6:30pm	10th October

This is why copy'n'pasting old announcements is not always a wise idea. ;)

Thanks for spotting that,

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681


From alecclews at gmail.com  Sun Oct  7 00:04:21 2007
From: alecclews at gmail.com (Alec Clews)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:04:21 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next meeting - Wednesday 10th October -
 HiveMinder and Net::Jaiku
In-Reply-To: <470855E0.4000606@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <C32EC215.8AD%alecclews@gmail.com>

I think that's Wed 10/Oct?


On 7/10/07 13:43, "Paul Fenwick" <pjf at perltraining.com.au> wrote:

> G'day everyone,
> 
> I'm glad to announce that Rick Measham and myself have agreed to give a talk
> about useful web services.  I'm going to suggest these be scheduled for our
> next Melb.pm meeting, unless we have any other talks planned.
> 
> 6:30pm Wednesday 8th August
> 
> Editure
> Level 8
> 14 Blackwood St
> North Melbourne
> 
> == Effective Procrastination with HiveMinder (Paul Fenwick) ==
> 
> If you're like most people, you've got dozens of things that need doing.
> Work, shopping, chores, programming, hobbies, tax, holidays, bills, and so
> on.  You may have tried to keep a to-do list, but found it rapidly grew to
> the point of being unmanageable.
> 
> Paul Fenwick will demonstrate the use of the free HiveMinder.com to-do
> service to both manage tasks and to procrastinate effectively, allowing you
> to focus only on the tasks that really need to be done.  We'll see how to
> manage tasks via the web, via-email, and how to be really efficient via
> instant messenger.
> 
> To conclude, we'll see how it's possible to add new features to HiveMinder
> and some tricks and tips for doing so.
> 
> == Microblogging with Jaiku and Net::Jaiku (Rick Measham) ==
> 
> Net::Jaiku - an introduction to microblogging and lifestreaming, plus a
> bonus: Using microblogging as a development tool.
> 
> ---
> 
> Hope to see you there!
> 
> Paul

Sent using the Microsoft Entourage 2004 for Mac Test Drive.



From lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au  Sun Oct  7 19:17:10 2007
From: lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au (Leigh Sharpe)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:17:10 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next meeting - Wednesday 10th October -
	HiveMinderand Net::Jaiku
References: <470855E0.4000606@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <96CF49BD8B56384395D698BA99007FA33841@exchange.pacwire.local>

Hmm, effective procrasination.
Shouldn't we do that talk next month?
:-)
 

________________________________

From: melbourne-pm-bounces+lsharpe=pacificwireless.com.au at pm.org on behalf of Paul Fenwick
Sent: Sun 10/7/2007 1:43 PM
To: Melbourne Perl Mongers
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next meeting - Wednesday 10th October - HiveMinderand Net::Jaiku



G'day everyone,

I'm glad to announce that Rick Measham and myself have agreed to give a talk
about useful web services.  I'm going to suggest these be scheduled for our
next Melb.pm meeting, unless we have any other talks planned.

        6:30pm  Wednesday 8th August

        Editure
        Level 8
        14 Blackwood St
        North Melbourne

== Effective Procrastination with HiveMinder (Paul Fenwick) ==

If you're like most people, you've got dozens of things that need doing.
Work, shopping, chores, programming, hobbies, tax, holidays, bills, and so
on.  You may have tried to keep a to-do list, but found it rapidly grew to
the point of being unmanageable.

Paul Fenwick will demonstrate the use of the free HiveMinder.com to-do
service to both manage tasks and to procrastinate effectively, allowing you
to focus only on the tasks that really need to be done.  We'll see how to
manage tasks via the web, via-email, and how to be really efficient via
instant messenger.

To conclude, we'll see how it's possible to add new features to HiveMinder
and some tricks and tips for doing so.

== Microblogging with Jaiku and Net::Jaiku (Rick Measham) ==

Net::Jaiku - an introduction to microblogging and lifestreaming, plus a
bonus: Using microblogging as a development tool.

---

Hope to see you there!

        Paul

--
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681
_______________________________________________
Melbourne-pm mailing list
Melbourne-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm


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From andrew.stuart at flatraterecruitment.com.au  Mon Oct  8 20:48:34 2007
From: andrew.stuart at flatraterecruitment.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:48:34 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Perlmongers mailing list usage question
In-Reply-To: <b08e1490709250021t13cb1cd1o170e8b24b8afc02@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b08e1490709250021t13cb1cd1o170e8b24b8afc02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E55504DD-17D6-44DE-BC11-E114A4056A29@flatraterecruitment.com.au>

Hello all

Its a recruiter here with a question about list usage.

I have a job for a Java and Python developer and I suspect there may  
be people in the Perl community who might have the skills and  
interest to apply.

The role however does not have any Perl development.

So is it okay to post the job to this list?

Thanks

Andrew Stuart



Managing Director
Flat Rate Recruitment
Head Office:
68 -72 York St
South Melbourne, Victoria 3205
Phone: 1300 55 91 92
Phone 03 9696 1616
Mobile: 0417 034 241
Email:  andrew.stuart at FlatRateRecruitment.com.au
Web: http://www.FlatRateRecruitment.com.au

From tjc at wintrmute.net  Mon Oct  8 21:59:07 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 14:59:07 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Exporting functions by attributes
Message-ID: <470B0A9B.8090901@wintrmute.net>

It occurred to me earlier that exporting functions from modules in the
traditional way, ie. as given in `perldoc Exporter`, seems poor,
especially with the availability of function attributes in recent
versions of Perl.

I had a search around on CPAN, and found that there are already at least
seven different Exporter variants - Classic, Easy, Easiest, Lite,
NoWork, Simple and Tidy. (There are probably more, but I stopped looking
at this point).

For the record, Exporter::Simple does what I had in mind - you can tag
functions with attributes Exported or Exportable (exported by default or
optionally). More info in their docs.

I thought I'd pass this along as I found it interesting.
It won't work on older pre-attribute versions of Perl of course.

-Toby

From steve.sabljak at gmail.com  Mon Oct  8 23:49:40 2007
From: steve.sabljak at gmail.com (Steve Sabljak)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 16:49:40 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Exporting functions by attributes
In-Reply-To: <470B0A9B.8090901@wintrmute.net>
References: <470B0A9B.8090901@wintrmute.net>
Message-ID: <81c28d920710082349k35b82901q7a0ed32042b2982a@mail.gmail.com>

If memory serves me, Damian Conway advocates Perl6::Export::Attrs in
Perl Best Practices, which looks like it wooks similarly to
Exporter::Simple. The perldoc for Sub::Exporter has a nice comparison
of the various popular exporter modules
(http://search.cpan.org/~rjbs/Sub-Exporter-0.976/lib/Sub/Exporter.pm#COMPARISONS)
which may be of interest.

cheers,
Steve

On 10/9/07, Toby Corkindale <tjc at wintrmute.net> wrote:
> It occurred to me earlier that exporting functions from modules in the
> traditional way, ie. as given in `perldoc Exporter`, seems poor,
> especially with the availability of function attributes in recent
> versions of Perl.
>
> I had a search around on CPAN, and found that there are already at least
> seven different Exporter variants - Classic, Easy, Easiest, Lite,
> NoWork, Simple and Tidy. (There are probably more, but I stopped looking
> at this point).
>
> For the record, Exporter::Simple does what I had in mind - you can tag
> functions with attributes Exported or Exportable (exported by default or
> optionally). More info in their docs.
>
> I thought I'd pass this along as I found it interesting.
> It won't work on older pre-attribute versions of Perl of course.
>
> -Toby
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From tjc at wintrmute.net  Tue Oct  9 05:47:48 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:47:48 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Exporting functions by attributes
In-Reply-To: <20071009052755.GF11051@woobling.org>
References: <470B0A9B.8090901@wintrmute.net>
	<20071009052755.GF11051@woobling.org>
Message-ID: <470B7874.5030409@wintrmute.net>

Yuval Kogman wrote:
> It breaks with require, since INIT/CHECK only fire at real startup.
> 
> Also, it pollutes UNIVERSAL.

Ah, a pity. It did seem like a more natural way for the language to
indicate what to export. Maybe in perl6, eh? :)

-Toby

> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 14:59:07 +1000, Toby Corkindale wrote:
>> It occurred to me earlier that exporting functions from modules in the
>> traditional way, ie. as given in `perldoc Exporter`, seems poor,
>> especially with the availability of function attributes in recent
>> versions of Perl.
>>
>> I had a search around on CPAN, and found that there are already at least
>> seven different Exporter variants - Classic, Easy, Easiest, Lite,
>> NoWork, Simple and Tidy. (There are probably more, but I stopped looking
>> at this point).
>>
>> For the record, Exporter::Simple does what I had in mind - you can tag
>> functions with attributes Exported or Exportable (exported by default or
>> optionally). More info in their docs.
>>
>> I thought I'd pass this along as I found it interesting.
>> It won't work on older pre-attribute versions of Perl of course.
>>
>> -Toby
> 


From tjc at wintrmute.net  Tue Oct  9 18:54:12 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:54:12 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Geek accomodation
In-Reply-To: <b08e1490709192248t5e79b8h2b1ce1a3abc023bb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46F0B189.2030708@wintrmute.net>
	<87ps0egb71.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>	<46F14DAA.60707@wintrmute.net>
	<87lkb2hvbl.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>
	<b08e1490709192248t5e79b8h2b1ce1a3abc023bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <470C30C4.3010102@wintrmute.net>

Kirrily Robert wrote:
> I have a technique for finding rental accommodation that worked well
> for me and has worked well for others I've recommended it to, often
> extremely rapidly after a long dry spell.
[snip]

This method seems to be effective at getting an application first in
line to be approved, as did sweet-talking agents into letting me see
places prior to the general inspection and quickly submitting an
application.

But I've hit another stumbling block - several estate agents have said
that while the application checked out OK, they are going to run more
inspections until they get some more applications, and THEN select which
one to run with.
To me, this seems like they are trying to say that I'm acceptable, but
not their ideal, and so they're waiting to see if anyone better comes
along.. (Or possibly, that someone comes along with a higher bid or
bigger bribe.)
It seems like they're actively making work for themselves, so I don't
understand why they are doing it, unless there's money in it.

.. I'm wondering if this is a hint I should go back and offer more
money. Or re-submit my application with a handful of fifties stapled to it.

Toby

From daniel at rimspace.net  Tue Oct  9 22:43:59 2007
From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:43:59 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Geek accomodation
In-Reply-To: <470C30C4.3010102@wintrmute.net> (Toby Corkindale's message of
	"Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:54:12 +1000")
References: <46F0B189.2030708@wintrmute.net>
	<87ps0egb71.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> <46F14DAA.60707@wintrmute.net>
	<87lkb2hvbl.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>
	<b08e1490709192248t5e79b8h2b1ce1a3abc023bb@mail.gmail.com>
	<470C30C4.3010102@wintrmute.net>
Message-ID: <87zlyrv80w.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>

Toby Corkindale <tjc at wintrmute.net> writes:
> Kirrily Robert wrote:
>
>> I have a technique for finding rental accommodation that worked well
>> for me and has worked well for others I've recommended it to, often
>> extremely rapidly after a long dry spell.
> [snip]
>
> This method seems to be effective at getting an application first in
> line to be approved, as did sweet-talking agents into letting me see
> places prior to the general inspection and quickly submitting an
> application.
>
> But I've hit another stumbling block - several estate agents have said
> that while the application checked out OK, they are going to run more
> inspections until they get some more applications, and THEN select
> which one to run with.  To me, this seems like they are trying to say
> that I'm acceptable, but not their ideal, and so they're waiting to
> see if anyone better comes along.. 

Well, they do like to present at least two applications to the owner so
there is, like, actual choice.  In the current market they can safely
bet that they will (in most cases) get at least two applications.[1]

> (Or possibly, that someone comes along with a higher bid or bigger
> bribe.)  It seems like they're actively making work for themselves, so
> I don't understand why they are doing it, unless there's money in it.

...because it makes the owner happier, basically.

It actually makes life, on average, worse for the agent to take longer
to move the property: they make a small percentage of the price, so $50
a week is worth approximately zero to the agent -- but a second property
placed is worth a notable amount.

> .. I'm wondering if this is a hint I should go back and offer more
> money. Or re-submit my application with a handful of fifties stapled
> to it.

Well, it mostly can't hurt -- though agents don't like to be reminded
that people will, more or less, bribe the owner to take them in direct
terms.

Regards,
        Daniel

Footnotes: 
[1]  ...though I am surprised they didn't get that on day one. ;)

-- 
Daniel Pittman <daniel at cybersource.com.au>           Phone: 03 9621 2377
Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne             Web: http://www.cyber.com.au
Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company

From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Tue Oct  9 22:41:58 2007
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:41:58 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Reminder: Meeting TONIGHT
In-Reply-To: <95B5CB95-DBD6-4A80-81D1-5234417C3287@gmail.com>
References: <46FC90E9.8040008@perltraining.com.au>
	<95B5CB95-DBD6-4A80-81D1-5234417C3287@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <470C6626.9000606@perltraining.com.au>

G'day Everyone,

Just a reminder that the meeting is TONIGHT:

	6:30pm	Wednesday 8th August

	Editure
	Level 8
	14 Blackwood St
	North Melbourne

== Effective Procrastination with HiveMinder (Paul Fenwick) ==

If you're like most people, you've got dozens of things that need doing.
Work, shopping, chores, programming, hobbies, tax, holidays, bills, and so
on.  You may have tried to keep a to-do list, but found it rapidly grew to
the point of being unmanageable.

Paul Fenwick will demonstrate the use of the free HiveMinder.com to-do
service to both manage tasks and to procrastinate effectively, allowing you
to focus only on the tasks that really need to be done.  We'll see how to
manage tasks via the web, via-email, and how to be really efficient via
instant messenger.

To conclude, we'll see how it's possible to add new features to HiveMinder
and some tricks and tips for doing so.

== Microblogging with Jaiku and Net::Jaiku (Rick Measham) ==

Net::Jaiku - an introduction to microblogging and lifestreaming, plus a
bonus: Using microblogging as a development tool.	

---

Also, since I've heard nothing but praise for the idea of going to the
Redback afterwards, I'm going to try and steer the after-meeting drinks in
that direction. ;)

Hope to see you there!

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From list at bereft.net  Tue Oct  9 23:23:39 2007
From: list at bereft.net (Brad Bowman)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:23:39 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Module advice
Message-ID: <470C6FEB.40901@bereft.net>


Hello,

I'm coming to the meeting tonight and intended to ask some Perl brains
for ideas and opinions about a module I'm working on: Devel::file
  http://search.cpan.org/~bowmanbs/Devel-file-0.01/lib/Devel/file.pm

Particularly, what the defaults should be given that they're
not as easy to adjust as I hoped:
  http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=643224

Paul's message reminded me that advanced warning would be useful,

Brad

-- 
   To ask when you already know is politeness. To ask when you don't know
   is the rule.                  -- Hagakure http://bereft.net/hagakure/

From jarich at osdc.com.au  Wed Oct 10 22:41:18 2007
From: jarich at osdc.com.au (jarich at osdc.com.au)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:41:18 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC 2007 Program is available
Message-ID: <20071011054118.3A125A92BF@teddybear.perltraining.com.au>

Dear Melb PM members,

Registrations are open for the Open Source Developers' Conference 2007:
http://www.osdc.com.au/registration/index.html 

Book before THIS SUNDAY - 14th October to save $50 and get a free conference
t-shirt!

Key information:

	14th October		- Early bird date

	26th November 		- Tutorials
	27th - 29th November	- Technical program
	28th November		- Google Conference Dinner
	
	Royal on the Park Hotel
	Cnr Alice & Albert Streets 
	Brisbane CBD
	Queensland
	

The Open Source Developers' Conference is an Australian conference covering
talks about software development for open source languages and projects;
regardless of operating system.  There will be 3-4 streams of talks over
the three days of technical program, with combined keynotes at the start
of each day.  Morning and afternoon teas, and lunch will be provided.  The
Google Conference Dinner will be held on the night of the 28th November
(each full registration includes one ticket (until sold out)).

Talks this year include:

	* "Packaging Perl Applications: From CPAN To Your Project"
		by Kirrily Robert

	* "Integrating PHP and Active Directory" by Scott Barnett

	* "Commercial Open Source with Python: Experiences from the
	  Trenches: Developing a Commercial Python Open Source Project"
	  by Juergen Brendel

	* "Why would a Java Shop want to use Ruby?" by Keith Pitty

	* "Unfair advantage - Taking on .net with a world-beating open
	   source stack" by Stuart Guthrie

To see more and view the program please visit:

http://www.cgpublisher.com/conferences/107/web/program-detail.html

Conference keynote presenters include Rusty Russell (opening), Rasmus
Lerdorf, Paul Fenwick (dinner), Kimberlee Weatherall, Nat Torkington
(closing), and plenaries by Ian Clatworthy and Melissa Draper!

You can help us make this conference be the best developers' conference
this year just by turning up and participating!  We look forward to sharing
this great conference with you.

If your business would like to benefit from exposure to many of Australia's
best open source developers then perhaps you should consider sponsorship.
We have a wide range of sponsorship options, to find out more information
please visit: http://www.osdc.com.au/sponsors/index.html

Many thanks go to our sponsors: Apress, Brisbane PHP, BuilderAU, Common Ground,
Google, Linux Magazine, Opengear, Open Query, Red Hat, realestate.com.au,
Sun Microsystems, Trolltech, Woodslane, Zac-Ware/Freeway.

	Jacinta Richardson
	OSDC Publicity Officer

PS:  There will be a total of 4 of these messages from me over the next
month and a bit.  If this is unacceptable, please let me know and I won't
send the others to you.

From tjc at wintrmute.net  Sat Oct 13 19:47:03 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:47:03 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Geek accomodation
In-Reply-To: <87zlyrv80w.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>
References: <46F0B189.2030708@wintrmute.net>	<87ps0egb71.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>
	<46F14DAA.60707@wintrmute.net>	<87lkb2hvbl.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>	<b08e1490709192248t5e79b8h2b1ce1a3abc023bb@mail.gmail.com>	<470C30C4.3010102@wintrmute.net>
	<87zlyrv80w.fsf@enki.rimspace.net>
Message-ID: <47118327.3070209@wintrmute.net>

I thought I'd mention that I finally signed a contract and will be
moving into a place mid next week. Hurrah.
I promise to stop ranting about estate agents to the list now, really. :)

Toby


From tjc at wintrmute.net  Sun Oct 14 17:41:43 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:41:43 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Geek accomodation
In-Reply-To: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769802BC3244@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
References: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769802BC3244@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
Message-ID: <4712B747.7000003@wintrmute.net>

leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au wrote:
> You cant just leave it there!! Did you have to pay a bribe ? Did any
> special technique work? Was it a fluke ? 
> 
> After all this agony, we need the afterglow !!

The successful application seemed like a fluke.. It was a property that
I'd called the agent about a few days prior, and asked when it was open
for inspection. They said they'd call me back.. Two days later, they
called back and said "Inspection in 90 minutes". Rather short notice! I
jumped in a cab, had a quick look around the place, and picked up an
inspection notice which was handed in about an hour later.
About 24 hours later the agent called back to say the application was
approved!

No bribes, no sneaky pre-filled applications, no harassing of the
agent.. I don't understand it! (Since I was using those methods on many
other agents for many properties previously with no results, sadly.)

Toby

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tjc at wintrmute.net [mailto:tjc at wintrmute.net] 
>> Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2007 12:47 PM
>> To: melbourne-pm at pm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] Geek accomodation
>>
>> I thought I'd mention that I finally signed a contract and 
>> will be moving into a place mid next week. Hurrah.
>> I promise to stop ranting about estate agents to the list 
>> now, really. :)

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Tue Oct 16 00:56:03 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:56:03 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] SECURECon 2007 - November 7th to 9th - The
	University	of Melbourne
Message-ID: <47146E93.3060002@perltraining.com.au>

Last year's conference was heaps of fun, so if you've got the time:



SECURECon 2007   - http://securecon.unimelb.edu.au
November 7-9 - The University of Melbourne

Registration has opened for SECURECon 2007.

REGISTER HERE --> http://securecon.unimelb.edu.au/register
Visit http://securecon.unimelb.edu.au for more details
Email enquiries at securecon.unimelb.edu.au if you have questions


This year's SECURECon theme is SECURING OPEN ENVIRONMENTS

Open environments can include open access networks, public web applications
and other network services not confined within a corporate LAN.

We also have other technical and non-technical IT Security talks as well as
two 3-hour workshops this year: Security auditing using open source security
tools and a tutorial on NSA Security Enhanced Linux.

At these workshops delegates will be able to gain hands-on experience and
feedback within a comfortable computer lab environments.

For information about some of the current presentations in our programme
visit http://securecon.unimelb.edu.au/programme


CONFERENCE DINNER AND REFRESHMENTS
We had great feedback from those who attended our very informal conference
dinner last year. The dinner will again be held at Mark's Place with carry
over to PA's on Grattan Street. Mark's Place has pizzas, pastas and other
main meals ranging from $6.80 to $18.50 and a $5 Discount voucher will be
provided.

Please select the box in registration if you want to come so we can book
seats.

Last year's refreshments on Friday evening was very popular with some great
give-away prizes, finger food, comedy from Nick and beverages.


ABOUT SECURECON
SECURECon aims to provide a forum for high quality presentations and
workshops on emerging issues and technologies in IT Security. Aimed at IT
professionals across all industries SECURECon provides an opportunity for IT
Professionals to network and exchange ideas and information.

SECURECon is run by Melbourne University staff and students.

Visit http://securecon.unimelb.edu.au for more details
Email enquiries at securecon.unimelb.edu.au if you have questions

SECURECon is a free public offering kindly sponsored by:
Verisign, Dimension Data and The University of Melbourne

SECURECon is endorsed by the Information Systems Security
Association (ISSA) http://www.issa.org.au


-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |
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From ts at meme.com.au  Thu Oct 18 19:06:19 2007
From: ts at meme.com.au (Tony Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:06:19 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Melbourne Slashdot 10-year anniversary party
Message-ID: <D7E0742F-F8E9-4135-8F49-140AFACFC2EA@meme.com.au>

For the few who weren't at last week's MelbPM meeting, a late reminder:

http://slashdot.org/anniversary.pl?view_id=211

> Bells Hotel & Brewery Map
> October 23, 2007, 7 p.m. - whenever
> 157 Moray Street,
> South Melbourne




Tony Smith
0405 499 718
TransForum Developer
http://www.transforum.net/

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From rick at measham.id.au  Fri Oct 19 15:06:44 2007
From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:06:44 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Floating an idea for 'summer switch camp'
Message-ID: <47192A74.9080105@measham.id.au>

We got to talking yesterday about the number of perl jobs that seem to 
pop up over and over. I know there are a few perl shops around town that 
seem to struggle to find coders to fill their books and I know how hard 
it can be even if you just need one.

So, how's this sound?

Melbourne's perl shops get together (it's too late for this year) and 
sponsor a fortnight-long 'summer switch camp' for programmers to learn 
perl. The event is totally free to participants (though if they're from 
out of town they'd need to organize their own accommodation and food)

To get one of the (coveted) positions, you'd have to submit your 
application along with your resume. We want programmers here who can 
switch to perl, not people who'd like to get into programming. Then the 
sponsors would go over the application and see who looked like the most 
likely to benefit. Pick the top (15? 20? 40?) and invite them along.

The first day or two would be general perl overview. Then I figure a day 
where the participants choose their most comfortable 'other' language 
and split into workshops where we talk specifically to switchers from 
those languages.

Now we have everyone with at least the perl fundamentals. The next 3-4 
days are covering off perl to the point where you could read most (non 
obfu) scripts and write a fair bit. "Learning Perl" level maybe.

Then you hit them with perl's secret weapon, CPAN. An overview of OO in 
perl. Then a day of coding some 'quiz' tasks and reviewing them. The 
final day is then a 'trade day' where they get to sit down with any of 
the sponsors and chat about how the sponsors use perl and the sorts of 
opportunities that may be available.

So, what do you think? Sound feasible? Sound like something the local 
perl shops would be into? Something that would find an audience with 
other language programmers? Would an intensive fortnight be enough to 
switch people?

Cheers!
Rick Measham

NOTE: This has nothing to do with my current place-of-trade. Just 
something a couple of us were talking about privately. My place-of-trade 
may or may not be interested, I haven't taken it to them

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From alecclews at gmail.com  Fri Oct 19 18:59:37 2007
From: alecclews at gmail.com (Alec Clews)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:59:37 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Floating an idea for 'summer switch camp'
In-Reply-To: <47192A74.9080105@measham.id.au>
Message-ID: <C33F9E29.152F%alecclews@gmail.com>

This is not something I would be interested in, however I hope I can make
some useful comments:

* Great 'out of the box thinking'. I think it's a really cool idea.
* I would hope that an experienced programmer could pick up basic Perl in
less than 10 days of full on training (but see my comments below)
* I suspect that the sponsors would be happier putting money down if they
were candidates they could employ (except for the lack of Perl skills). I.e.
There was contractual commitment on both sides for work at end of the course
(I've called this a working sponsorship below)
* OR there should be some element of self sponsorship to show the candidates
have some 'skin in the game'
* I suspect there is also a market for contractors who would like to self
sponsor and switch to Perl.


I would suggest that the format is changed to be

A) A shorter introductory course (5 days?) that gets them up and running. At
this point they would should be able to handle basic maintenance tasks and
know enough to self study to the next level. At this point they take on a
trainee programming type role and tasks for a few weeks
B) A follow up mentoring  and part time study curriculum in the students own
time -- skin in the game again. This could have some generic material (e.g.
Advanced OO Programming) and some employer specific tracks (e.g. Template
programming with Mason). As this will be self study with some support via
email, IM etc then it can also accommodate interstate candidates.

The reason for suggesting this is format is three fold:

1) Reduces sponsors costs
2) It self selects candidates (if they are not committed to the self study
course they are less likely to commit in the 1st place)
3) It offers the most flexible curriculum.

And additional question?

* Would there be any interest (or money available) in offering bursaries to
recent graduates or unemployed programmers (e.g. home makers wanting to
return to the workforce)? These folks are less likely to be able to self
sponsor or attract a working sponsorship.
* Is this something that we get an external organisation to deliver or does
PM roll their own material and delivery? Apart from Perl Training Australia
are there any other organisations we could approach?

Possible Next Steps?

1) Agree a proposed training format/content and costs
2) Identify as large a list of Aus Perl shops
3) See if there is any management buy in from the management if Aus Perl
shop
4) Review the process and decide on next steps




> From: Rick Measham <rick at measham.id.au>
> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:06:44 +1000
> To: Melbourne Perlmongers <melbourne-pm at pm.org>
> Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Floating an idea for 'summer switch camp'
> 
> We got to talking yesterday about the number of perl jobs that seem to
> pop up over and over. I know there are a few perl shops around town that
> seem to struggle to find coders to fill their books and I know how hard
> it can be even if you just need one.
> 
> So, how's this sound?
> 
> Melbourne's perl shops get together (it's too late for this year) and
> sponsor a fortnight-long 'summer switch camp' for programmers to learn
> perl. The event is totally free to participants (though if they're from
> out of town they'd need to organize their own accommodation and food)
> 
> To get one of the (coveted) positions, you'd have to submit your
> application along with your resume. We want programmers here who can
> switch to perl, not people who'd like to get into programming. Then the
> sponsors would go over the application and see who looked like the most
> likely to benefit. Pick the top (15? 20? 40?) and invite them along.
> 
> The first day or two would be general perl overview. Then I figure a day
> where the participants choose their most comfortable 'other' language
> and split into workshops where we talk specifically to switchers from
> those languages.
> 
> Now we have everyone with at least the perl fundamentals. The next 3-4
> days are covering off perl to the point where you could read most (non
> obfu) scripts and write a fair bit. "Learning Perl" level maybe.
> 
> Then you hit them with perl's secret weapon, CPAN. An overview of OO in
> perl. Then a day of coding some 'quiz' tasks and reviewing them. The
> final day is then a 'trade day' where they get to sit down with any of
> the sponsors and chat about how the sponsors use perl and the sorts of
> opportunities that may be available.
> 
> So, what do you think? Sound feasible? Sound like something the local
> perl shops would be into? Something that would find an audience with
> other language programmers? Would an intensive fortnight be enough to
> switch people?
> 
> Cheers!
> Rick Measham
> 
> NOTE: This has nothing to do with my current place-of-trade. Just
> something a couple of us were talking about privately. My place-of-trade
> may or may not be interested, I haven't taken it to them
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm



From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Fri Oct 19 22:15:32 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:15:32 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Floating an idea for 'summer switch camp'
In-Reply-To: <C33F9E29.152F%alecclews@gmail.com>
References: <C33F9E29.152F%alecclews@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47198EF4.2080800@perltraining.com.au>

Regarding the idea, I think it's great.  We're already working with Strategic
Data to provide scholarships to a number of graduates this year:

	http://www.strategicdata.com.au/perlscholarship/

I'm certainly willing to consider being part of further ventures like this.  We
can take classes of up to 14 attendees with two trainers, but if there were Perl
Mongers willing to work through our material prior to the course and then assist
with exercises; we could potentially expand that number a little further.

Alec Clews wrote:

> A) A shorter introductory course (5 days?) that gets them up and running. At
> this point they would should be able to handle basic maintenance tasks and
> know enough to self study to the next level. At this point they take on a
> trainee programming type role and tasks for a few weeks

I agree.  From my experience, 5 days should be fine to teach an existing
programmer the basics of Perl (syntax, regular expressions, file I/O, references
and complex data structures, system commands, packages & modules etc).  Our
basic course is 4 days but due to consistent feedback about it being too rushed,
it'll probably be 5 days (with 1/2 a day of new material on documentation and
testing) next year.  Some learn faster, most are pretty good with our pace, some
really struggle.  All of them describe their roles in industry as "programmer".

This is assuming the person can give you their full attention, and isn't being
called up by work or required to keep up to date with email all the time.
On-site courses can suffer from this a lot with various participants being
called out "just for a few minutes" every hour...  But I imagine that wouldn't
be so much of an issue in this situation.

> * Would there be any interest (or money available) in offering bursaries to
> recent graduates or unemployed programmers (e.g. home makers wanting to
> return to the workforce)? These folks are less likely to be able to self
> sponsor or attract a working sponsorship.

In general, recent graduates learn a lot faster than those in industry.
Probably because that's all they've been doing for the last 3-22 years.  They're
pretty good at remembering what they've learned too.  Training anyone who
doesn't have prior programming experience will probably need more than a one
week course.

With respect to converting existing programmers; I have to ask where will you
find them?  As far as I can see, in the job market there isn't so much a lack of
good _Perl_ programmers as a lack of good programmers.  Australian businesses
are retraining their staff.  Many of our course attendees have just joined their
given company and have been sent on our courses to get up to speed.  Not all
businesses can afford this, but when you've got businesses like REA offering
insane referral bonuses; training has got to look pretty compelling.  Graduates
are probably the most effective starting ground, unless you know of a lot of
_good_ programmers who are out of work?  And sure there are some, but we get a
fair few individuals put themselves through our courses as well, so I imagine
the motivated probably don't stay out of work that long.


I'm very happy to assist where I can with such an idea, but I can't run it.  I
have a few too many other tasks on my plate at this time!

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From rick at measham.id.au  Sat Oct 20 03:24:34 2007
From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 20:24:34 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Floating an idea for 'summer switch camp'
In-Reply-To: <47198EF4.2080800@perltraining.com.au>
References: <C33F9E29.152F%alecclews@gmail.com>
	<47198EF4.2080800@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <4719D762.5020201@measham.id.au>

Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> I agree.  From my experience, 5 days should be fine to teach an existing
> programmer the basics of Perl (syntax, regular expressions, file I/O, references
> and complex data structures, system commands, packages & modules etc).

Ahh, excellent feedback. Thanks Jacinta and Alec.

> This is assuming the person can give you their full attention, and isn't being
> called up by work or required to keep up to date with email all the time.

My goal is to poach the good developers from other worlds or steer new 
graduates towards perl. Their boss wouldn't necessarily know they 
weren't soaking up the sun in Queensland :-D

> With respect to converting existing programmers; I have to ask where will you
> find them?  As far as I can see, in the job market there isn't so much a lack of
> good _Perl_ programmers as a lack of good programmers. 

Absolutely, but right now, we're limited to head hunting each others' 
developers. The aim here is to head hunt the good developers stuck in 
.NET world! (nevermind the oxymoron)

Thanks Jacinta and Alec!

Cheers!
Rick Measham
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From rick at measham.id.au  Sat Oct 20 03:33:32 2007
From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 20:33:32 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Floating an idea for 'summer switch camp'
In-Reply-To: <C33F9E29.152F%alecclews@gmail.com>
References: <C33F9E29.152F%alecclews@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4719D97C.9050903@measham.id.au>

Alec Clews wrote:

> A) A shorter introductory course (5 days?) that gets them up and running.

 > At this point they take on a trainee programming type role and tasks 
for a few weeks

> B) A follow up mentoring and part time study curriculum 

 > some employer specific tracks (e.g. Template programming with Mason)

Ooh, I really like this option, though it makes it hard for a 'head 
hunting' exercise to steal java programmers which was my initial goal. 
It would be ideal for return-to-work or recent graduates though.

> * Would there be any interest (or money available) in offering bursaries to
> recent graduates or unemployed programmers (e.g. home makers wanting to
> return to the workforce)? These folks are less likely to be able to self
> sponsor or attract a working sponsorship.

I imagine we might be able to find a couple of 'summer of code' 
opportunities for them .. maybe.

> * Is this something that we get an external organisation to deliver or does
> PM roll their own material and delivery? Apart from Perl Training Australia
> are there any other organisations we could approach?

My initial thought was to use PTA as a training resource (writing the 
material, branding) but supplementing them with some other faces, 
especially if the numbers are there. That way we can break it up into 
smaller classes or 'team teach' as a whole.

I'd also like to see one or more 'perl luminaries' there .. Damian, 
Randal or Larry

Thanks Alec!

Cheers!
Rick Measham
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From bonobo at bigpond.net.au  Sat Oct 20 05:30:12 2007
From: bonobo at bigpond.net.au (Alexis Hazell)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:30:12 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Opportunities for work?
Message-ID: <200710202230.14929.bonobo@bigpond.net.au>

Hi all,

Rick's recent message about a proposed 'summer switch camp' has provoked some 
wonderings on my part . . . .

Some background: I'm an Arts grad, not a Comp.Sci. grad, but have a 
long-standing interest in programming. I graduated from ANU in '95, and have 
worked in a variety of positions since then, some of which included the 
development / redevelopment of Web sites and Access-based DBs. I've also 
continued to develop my knowledge of programming, programming languages and 
programming issues - for example, during the last year or so i've been 
playing with Scheme, trying to wrap my head around Haskell, and have recently 
begun working my way through Girard's "Proofs and Types"

My interest in Perl dates back to around '97/'98, when I first encountered 
Perl and began playing with it on my home Linux system (RedHat 5.2). I 
actually moved to Melbourne in 2000 in the (obviously na?ve) hope that maybe 
I could find work as a Perl developer, not knowing that I was trying to do so 
in the middle of the so-called "tech wreck" of that year. Then, too, I found 
it difficult to convey the extent of my Perl knowledge, given that my 
commercial experience with it was limited to some scripts I wrote to automate 
the standardisation of a government Web site I redeveloped.

I subsequently ended up doing admin work rather than IT work - my lack of 
formal qualifications proved to be a serious stumbling block, as evidenced by 
the time I applied for an IT position at a major financial organisation and 
was told that the successful candidate was only ranked above me due to that 
person's formal quals. In any event, I eventually had to leave the work force 
altogether due to serious health problems. 

So my situation now is this: I'm unable to engage in full-time work due to my 
health issues (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome). In fact, practically speaking, I'm 
unable to regularly attend even part-time work, as my health is unpredictable 
on a day-to-day basis. I have a partner who financially supports me; but I 
would really like to have at least some income of my own, and I 
optimistically feel that there must be /some/ work which I can do. And more 
specifically - I feel that there's a good chance that I may be suited to 
doing project-based work (e.g. "Have this milestone completed by two weeks 
from now") that allows me to work when it suits me (e.g. late evening) rather 
than on a schedule (e.g. 9-5), and which allows me to work from home.

So I'm wondering if the demand for Perl developers might extend to someone in 
my position? My guess is that my level of Perl knowledge is at least on the 
same order of magnitude as that of a person who has attended a putative 
five-day crash course; but then, I'm not a Comp.Sci. grad, and I don't have a 
working knowledge of Java, C++ or C (although i've read K&R, most of which 
made sense to me :-) ). Nor do I have experience working as part of a 
development team, whether in commercial or FOSS projects, although I do 
realise that it would probably help me (to a greater or lesser extent) to 
have work on a FOSS project under my belt.

Any thoughts / comments / suggestions would be much appreciated. :-)


Alexis.

From guy at alchemy.com.au  Mon Oct 22 16:19:44 2007
From: guy at alchemy.com.au (Guy Morton)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:19:44 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] unicode html->pdf?
Message-ID: <AB5B9FB1-5B52-4D12-8545-C8B63F25E7AA@alchemy.com.au>

I've been struggling with this for a while so I thought I'd ask here  
to see if someone else has come across this problem and found a  
workable solution.

I have a client for whom I maintain a number of html-formatted  
document templates. These are editable via a web interface using the  
tinyMCE editor, which is very groovy and which works well. I use TT  
to render these templates into documents for further processing into  
PDFs.

HTMLDOC is the application I've used in the past to convert these  
documents into PDF, however it does not support unicode and therefore  
cannot render chinese characters in documents.

So, what I need is a way to convert my utf-8 charset HTML-formatted  
documents into PDF.

Anyone got a suggestion as to what might work?

Guy

From brendon.oliver at gmail.com  Tue Oct 23 17:20:25 2007
From: brendon.oliver at gmail.com (Brendon Oliver)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:20:25 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
Message-ID: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>

Hi all,

I just got bit by some behaviour that I wasn't expecting.  Consider the 
following code (sort of cribbed from a larger module, but illustrates the 
behaviour):

#<<<<<<<<< CUT HERE >>>>>>>>>>>>
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
#
use strict;
use warnings;

sub get_name_1
{
    my ( $n, $backfill ) = @_;

    my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;

    $job_name .= "migrate_$n";

    print "Job name: $job_name\n";
}

sub get_name_2
{
    my ( $n, $backfill ) = @_;

    my $job_name = "migrate_$n";

    $job_name = "backfill_$job_name" if $backfill;

    print "Job name: $job_name\n";
}

print "Using get_name1():\n";
for ( qw( foo bar baz tom joe fred ) ) {
    get_name_1($_);
}

print "\nUsing get_name2():\n";
for ( qw( foo bar baz tom joe fred ) ) {
    get_name_2($_);
}
#<<<<<<<<< END CUT >>>>>>>>>>>>

Which produces the following output:
Using get_name1():
Job name: migrate_foo
Job name: migrate_foomigrate_bar
Job name: migrate_foomigrate_barmigrate_baz
Job name: migrate_foomigrate_barmigrate_bazmigrate_tom
Job name: migrate_foomigrate_barmigrate_bazmigrate_tommigrate_joe
Job name: migrate_foomigrate_barmigrate_bazmigrate_tommigrate_joemigrate_fred

Using get_name2():
Job name: migrate_foo
Job name: migrate_bar
Job name: migrate_baz
Job name: migrate_tom
Job name: migrate_joe
Job name: migrate_fred

My puzzlement is:
1) Why in get_name_1() is there no "use of uninitialised variable in 
concatenation" error at the statement:
	$job_name .= "migrate_$n";
since $job_name would be uninitialised when $backfill is false.
2) Why does get_name_1() keep concatenating onto $job_name as if it's a global 
with each iteration, when it is clearly localised 'my $job_name' within the 
block.

I consider myself to be a fairly seasoned user of perl, but I can't explain 
the behaviour of get_name_1() (it's original intent was to produce the output 
shown in get_name_2().  I've shown it to a couple of other like-minded bodies 
here who are also at a loss to explain what's happening.

For the record, /usr/bin/perl -v:
This is perl, v5.8.8 built for i386-linux
(with 1 registered patch, see perl -V for more detail)

Copyright 1987-2006, Larry Wall

Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the
GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit.

Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be found on
this system using "man perl" or "perldoc perl".  If you have access to the
Internet, point your browser at http://www.perl.org/, the Perl Home Page.



(FWIW, tried on both FreeBSD & Mandriva Linux - same perl version).

Ideas anyone?  It's probably something stupidly basic that I've simply 
forgotten... but... someone I showed it to suggested that (horror of 
horrors!) it could be a bug in perl, so on the very remote off-chance that it 
might be, bragging rights reserved :-)

Cheers,

- Brendon.


-- 
Our houseplants have a good sense of humous.

 10:01:39 up 8 days, 21:27,  3 users,  load average: 0.02, 0.11, 0.14


From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Tue Oct 23 17:34:50 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:34:50 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>

I don't quite have the right language to explain why in the guts this is
happening, but I'll try.

> #<<<<<<<<< CUT HERE >>>>>>>>>>>>
> #!/usr/bin/perl -w
> #
> use strict;
> use warnings;
> 
> sub get_name_1
> {
>     my ( $n, $backfill ) = @_;
> 
>     my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;

This line above is like writing:

	my $a if $b;

So the lexical variable $a only springs into existence if $b is true.  Therefore
(since $backfill isn't true)

>     $job_name .= "migrate_$n";

this must be the global $job_name; hence the behaviour you see.  There is a
(lame) excuse for why you don't get strict errors and warnings, but I don't
remember what it is, and personally I think it's a bug.

You can fix get_name_1 by doing:

	my $job_name;
	$job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;
	$job_name .= "migrate_$n";

All the best,

	Jacinta

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From tjc at wintrmute.net  Tue Oct 23 17:42:28 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:42:28 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] unicode html->pdf?
In-Reply-To: <AB5B9FB1-5B52-4D12-8545-C8B63F25E7AA@alchemy.com.au>
References: <AB5B9FB1-5B52-4D12-8545-C8B63F25E7AA@alchemy.com.au>
Message-ID: <471E94F4.4000906@wintrmute.net>

Guy Morton wrote:
> I've been struggling with this for a while so I thought I'd ask here  
> to see if someone else has come across this problem and found a  
> workable solution.
> 
> I have a client for whom I maintain a number of html-formatted  
> document templates. These are editable via a web interface using the  
> tinyMCE editor, which is very groovy and which works well. I use TT  
> to render these templates into documents for further processing into  
> PDFs.
> 
> HTMLDOC is the application I've used in the past to convert these  
> documents into PDF, however it does not support unicode and therefore  
> cannot render chinese characters in documents.
> 
> So, what I need is a way to convert my utf-8 charset HTML-formatted  
> documents into PDF.
> 
> Anyone got a suggestion as to what might work?

I successfully did this with XSL-FO.
(ie. produce the Unicode XML with TT, then use an XSLT to produce
XSL-FO, and Apache FOP to get a PDF from it). You can do it all with
Perl right up to the system() call to run fop, unless they've produced
perl bindings for it by now. (I was doing this in 2003).

Toby

From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Tue Oct 23 17:44:42 2007
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:44:42 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
	<471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <471E957A.7010202@netratings.com.au>


>> #<<<<<<<<< CUT HERE >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> #!/usr/bin/perl -w
>> #
>> use strict;
>> use warnings;
>>
>> sub get_name_1
>> {
>>     my ( $n, $backfill ) = @_;
>>
>>     my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;
>>     
>
> This line above is like writing:
>
> 	my $a if $b;
>
> So the lexical variable $a only springs into existence if $b is true.  Therefore
> (since $backfill isn't true)
>   
why is it the same?

The "my $job_name" should be an isolated statement due to the "="
operator, ie: an lvalue is being created.
Thus "my $a if $b" doesn't have a lvalue until the "if" is true.

>>     $job_name .= "migrate_$n";
>>     
> this must be the global $job_name; hence the behaviour you see.  There is a
> (lame) excuse for why you don't get strict errors and warnings, but I don't
> remember what it is, and personally I think it's a bug.
>   
In any case $job_name would be undef on the first iteration, whether it
was global or local scoped.  I'd be interested to know why a warning
isn't produced?

cheers,
Mathew

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From brendon.oliver at gmail.com  Tue Oct 23 17:50:44 2007
From: brendon.oliver at gmail.com (Brendon Oliver)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:50:44 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
	<471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <200710241050.44857.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 24 October 2007 10:34:50 you wrote:
> >
> >     my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;
>
> This line above is like writing:
>
> 	my $a if $b;
>
> So the lexical variable $a only springs into existence if $b is true. 
> Therefore (since $backfill isn't true)
>
> >     $job_name .= "migrate_$n";
>
> this must be the global $job_name; hence the behaviour you see.  

Yes, but with 'use strict', where is this "global" $job_name declared? (there 
is none at the main:: scope) That's the bit that was puzzling me...

> There is a 
> (lame) excuse for why you don't get strict errors and warnings, but I don't
> remember what it is, and personally I think it's a bug.

:-)

> You can fix get_name_1 by doing:

Yep, already did a similar work-around.  

Anyways, no big drama - just sort of an itch I couldn't scratch because I 
hadn't come across this before.

Thanks for the reply tho.

regards,

- Brendon.

-- 
Optimism is the content of small men in high places.
		-- F. Scott Fitzgerald, "The Crack Up"

 10:46:07 up 8 days, 22:11,  3 users,  load average: 0.04, 0.17, 0.18


From benhare at gmail.com  Tue Oct 23 18:17:04 2007
From: benhare at gmail.com (Ben Hare)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:17:04 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <200710241050.44857.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
	<471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
	<200710241050.44857.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <822765280710231817l2cbbec1cxe48d18713ca68add@mail.gmail.com>

> my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;
> $job_name .= "migrate_$n";
> print "Job name: $job_name\n";

Mat/Brendon,

this is just Perl punishing you for writing the above code. please
stop confusing Perl.

thank you.

Ben.

PS: hope you guys are well!!! :D

On 10/24/07, Brendon Oliver <brendon.oliver at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 October 2007 10:34:50 you wrote:
> > >
> > >     my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;
> >
> > This line above is like writing:
> >
> >       my $a if $b;
> >
> > So the lexical variable $a only springs into existence if $b is true.
> > Therefore (since $backfill isn't true)
> >
> > >     $job_name .= "migrate_$n";
> >
> > this must be the global $job_name; hence the behaviour you see.
>
> Yes, but with 'use strict', where is this "global" $job_name declared? (there
> is none at the main:: scope) That's the bit that was puzzling me...
>
> > There is a
> > (lame) excuse for why you don't get strict errors and warnings, but I don't
> > remember what it is, and personally I think it's a bug.
>
> :-)
>
> > You can fix get_name_1 by doing:
>
> Yep, already did a similar work-around.
>
> Anyways, no big drama - just sort of an itch I couldn't scratch because I
> hadn't come across this before.
>
> Thanks for the reply tho.
>
> regards,
>
> - Brendon.
>
> --
> Optimism is the content of small men in high places.
>                 -- F. Scott Fitzgerald, "The Crack Up"
>
>  10:46:07 up 8 days, 22:11,  3 users,  load average: 0.04, 0.17, 0.18
>
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Tue Oct 23 18:33:33 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:33:33 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <471E957A.7010202@netratings.com.au>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>	<471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
	<471E957A.7010202@netratings.com.au>
Message-ID: <471EA0ED.9010003@perltraining.com.au>

Mathew Robertson wrote:

>>>     my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;
>>>     
>>
>> This line above is like writing:
>>
>> 	my $a if $b;
>>
>> So the lexical variable $a only springs into existence if $b is true.  Therefore
>> (since $backfill isn't true)
>>   
> why is it the same?
> 
> The "my $job_name" should be an isolated statement due to the "="
> operator, ie: an lvalue is being created.
> Thus "my $a if $b" doesn't have a lvalue until the "if" is true.

It's not that complicated.  ( did my research)

When Perl sees this code, it creates a pad slot for $job_name at compile time.
However, the op which should create a new entry in that pad for that value
during runtime will only run if the conditional is true.  This is true
regardless of whether we're creating and assigning; or just creating a variable.

You can find lots more on this bug by searching for:

	my if 0

Abigail from Perl Monks explains it thus:

====
	my $x if undef;

my has compile-time *and* run-time effects. At compile time, the compiler knows
about the variable, etc. At run-time, values are set, my $x; makes that $x
becomes undef. So far, so good.

However, for efficiency reasons, if Perl exits a block, it will actually *not*
delete any variables lexical to the block. You cannot refer to them anymore (the
compiler takes care of that), but the data structure build for it remains. Perl
does this because it is likely that you reenter a block and if the structure
remains, Perl can save time rebuilding it. However, with my $x if undef, no
run-time effect on $x happens when reentering the block. (The first time the
block is entered, the datastructure gets build when $x is used). And since the
structure doesn't get rebuild, the value doesn't get reset either. So, you have
created a static variable....
====

It was covered in the "This Week on p5p 2000/05/21"
(http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/05/p5pdigest/THISWEEK-20000521.html#my_x_if_0;_Trick)

Apparently Perl 5.10 throws a big fat warning if it sees this kind of behaviour.

> In any case $job_name would be undef on the first iteration, whether it
> was global or local scoped.  I'd be interested to know why a warning
> isn't produced?

	jarich at tabius:~$ perl -we '$x .= "foo"; print "$x\n"'
	foo
	jarich at tabius:~$ perl -we 'use strict; my $x .= "foo"; print "$x\n"'
	foo
	jarich at tabius:~$ perl -we 'use strict; my $x; $x .= "foo"; print "$x\n"'
	foo

I guess the lack of warnings isn't that unusual.

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From brendon.oliver at gmail.com  Tue Oct 23 18:44:36 2007
From: brendon.oliver at gmail.com (Brendon Oliver)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:44:36 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <471EA0ED.9010003@perltraining.com.au>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
	<471E957A.7010202@netratings.com.au>
	<471EA0ED.9010003@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <200710241144.36879.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>

On Wednesday 24 October 2007 11:33:33 Jacinta Richardson wrote:

> You can find lots more on this bug by searching for:
>
> 	my if 0
>
> Abigail from Perl Monks explains it thus:
>
> ====
> 	my $x if undef;
>
> my has compile-time *and* run-time effects. At compile time, the compiler
> knows about the variable, etc. At run-time, values are set, my $x; makes
> that $x becomes undef. So far, so good.
>
> However, for efficiency reasons, if Perl exits a block, it will actually
> *not* delete any variables lexical to the block. You cannot refer to them
> anymore (the compiler takes care of that), but the data structure build for
> it remains. Perl does this because it is likely that you reenter a block
> and if the structure remains, Perl can save time rebuilding it. However,
> with my $x if undef, no run-time effect on $x happens when reentering the
> block. (The first time the block is entered, the datastructure gets build
> when $x is used). And since the structure doesn't get rebuild, the value
> doesn't get reset either. So, you have created a static variable....
> ====

Thanks for the research / explanation Jacinta - much appreciated.

> It was covered in the "This Week on p5p 2000/05/21"
> (http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/05/p5pdigest/THISWEEK-20000521.html#my_x_if
>_0;_Trick)

> Apparently Perl 5.10 throws a big fat warning if it sees this kind of
> behaviour.

Gee, took only 7.5 years to fix (counting from the article publication)! Now 
*that's* progress! ;-P

Cheers,

- Brendon


-- 
BREAKFAST.COM Halted... Cereal Port Not Responding.

 11:41:41 up 8 days, 23:07,  3 users,  load average: 0.10, 0.18, 0.38


From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Tue Oct 23 20:21:26 2007
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:21:26 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <471EA0ED.9010003@perltraining.com.au>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>	<471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
	<471E957A.7010202@netratings.com.au>
	<471EA0ED.9010003@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <471EBA36.4090502@netratings.com.au>


>>>>     my $job_name = "backfill_" if $backfill;
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> This line above is like writing:
>>>
>>> 	my $a if $b;
>>>
>>> So the lexical variable $a only springs into existence if $b is true.  Therefore
>>> (since $backfill isn't true)
>>>   
>>>       
>> why is it the same?
>>
>> The "my $job_name" should be an isolated statement due to the "="
>> operator, ie: an lvalue is being created.
>> Thus "my $a if $b" doesn't have a lvalue until the "if" is true.
>>     
>
> It's not that complicated.  ( did my research)
>
> When Perl sees this code, it creates a pad slot for $job_name at compile time.
> However, the op which should create a new entry in that pad for that value
> during runtime will only run if the conditional is true.  This is true
> regardless of whether we're creating and assigning; or just creating a variable.
>
> You can find lots more on this bug by searching for:
>
> 	my if 0
>   
[ couldn't find much searching for 'perl "my if 0"' - 'perl "my $x if
0"' however is much more helpful - thanks for the pointer ]

I'd see "if 0" as a constant expression -> so the complicated stuff
appears to be that work is being done unnecessarily at runtime.
> Abigail from Perl Monks explains it thus:
>
> ====
> 	my $x if undef;
>
> my has compile-time *and* run-time effects. At compile time, the compiler knows
> about the variable, etc. At run-time, values are set, my $x; makes that $x
> becomes undef. So far, so good.
>
> However, for efficiency reasons, if Perl exits a block, it will actually *not*
> delete any variables lexical to the block. You cannot refer to them anymore (the
> compiler takes care of that), but the data structure build for it remains. Perl
> does this because it is likely that you reenter a block and if the structure
> remains, Perl can save time rebuilding it. However, with my $x if undef, no
> run-time effect on $x happens when reentering the block. (The first time the
> block is entered, the datastructure gets build when $x is used). And since the
> structure doesn't get rebuild, the value doesn't get reset either. So, you have
> created a static variable....
> ====
>   
"my $x if undef" should *only* have compile-time effects as the "if
undef" is a constant (albeit false) expression and so should be detected
early in the compile phase (cf. with C's interpretation of "if (0) ...")
**. So the data structure should be built at compile time so that it
doesn't have a runtime hit.

** Note that I'm _not_ assuming that an optimiser is at play here -> it
should be the compiler itself - although the actual optimisation could
be implemented in either, say depending on debugging requirements.

One could argue that the "if 0" should be evaluated at runtime, but that
doesn't gel with the fact that it is a constant expression. Under Perl
constant expressions are candidates for being optimised away by an
optimiser later.  The optimisation for the constant expression of "if 0"
would be to always set $x to undef.

An thus re-iterating the requirement that the effect of the "my $x"
should always be to scope $x to undef when the code block is entered.
> It was covered in the "This Week on p5p 2000/05/21"
> (http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/05/p5pdigest/THISWEEK-20000521.html#my_x_if_0;_Trick)
>
> Apparently Perl 5.10 throws a big fat warning if it sees this kind of behaviour.
>   
The article itself describes the implementation - not the expected
behaviour based on the rules of the language -> thus ignoring whether
the actual implementation is right (aka static variables) or wrong (a
bug)...

Interestingly B::Deparse documents that it doesn't correctly handle "my
$x if 0".  Having looked at its output (it has "'???';" for that line),
Deparse looks to be doing the right thing, ie: treating it as a constant
expression.

regards
Mathew
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From mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au  Tue Oct 23 20:37:06 2007
From: mathew.robertson at netratings.com.au (Mathew Robertson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:37:06 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] unicode html->pdf?
In-Reply-To: <AB5B9FB1-5B52-4D12-8545-C8B63F25E7AA@alchemy.com.au>
References: <AB5B9FB1-5B52-4D12-8545-C8B63F25E7AA@alchemy.com.au>
Message-ID: <471EBDE2.5030706@netratings.com.au>

Hi,

I have also been in the same situation, but I cant offer any
tried-and-tested solution.

PDF::API2 will do UTF8, but getting that to work with template-driven
sites is next to impossible.  This is ignoring the fact that most sites
now use some javascript to do the right thing.

The only solution which may work is to automate/script firefox so that
it loads the website, then calls the print handler to print a PDF.  You
could use one of the Firefox extensions for scripting a page-download
(eg: http://www.dbai.tuwien.ac.at/user/pollak/webpagedump), but hack it
to print to a PDF printer (rather than save to disk).

cheers
Mathew


Guy Morton wrote:
> I've been struggling with this for a while so I thought I'd ask here  
> to see if someone else has come across this problem and found a  
> workable solution.
>
> I have a client for whom I maintain a number of html-formatted  
> document templates. These are editable via a web interface using the  
> tinyMCE editor, which is very groovy and which works well. I use TT  
> to render these templates into documents for further processing into  
> PDFs.
>
> HTMLDOC is the application I've used in the past to convert these  
> documents into PDF, however it does not support unicode and therefore  
> cannot render chinese characters in documents.
>
> So, what I need is a way to convert my utf-8 charset HTML-formatted  
> documents into PDF.
>
> Anyone got a suggestion as to what might work?
>
> Guy
> _______________________________________________
> Melbourne-pm mailing list
> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>   
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From guy at alchemy.com.au  Tue Oct 23 22:18:05 2007
From: guy at alchemy.com.au (Guy Morton)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:18:05 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] unicode html->pdf?
In-Reply-To: <471EBDE2.5030706@netratings.com.au>
References: <AB5B9FB1-5B52-4D12-8545-C8B63F25E7AA@alchemy.com.au>
	<471EBDE2.5030706@netratings.com.au>
Message-ID: <9FE37665-0F78-4D20-B06A-5F2B88F94E50@alchemy.com.au>

Hi Mathew

Trouble is, I need the file on the server because I email it out from  
there.

There's this

http://www.pdflib.com/products/pdflib-family/pdflib/

Which actually does a pretty nice job but it's commercial software  
and not cheap ($1120 at current exchange rates). If I had a few  
clients needing it i'd spread the cost around, but I don't.

Guy



On 24/10/2007, at 1:37 PM, Mathew Robertson wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have also been in the same situation, but I cant offer any tried- 
> and-tested solution.
>
> PDF::API2 will do UTF8, but getting that to work with template- 
> driven sites is next to impossible.  This is ignoring the fact that  
> most sites now use some javascript to do the right thing.
>
> The only solution which may work is to automate/script firefox so  
> that it loads the website, then calls the print handler to print a  
> PDF.  You could use one of the Firefox extensions for scripting a  
> page-download (eg: http://www.dbai.tuwien.ac.at/user/pollak/ 
> webpagedump), but hack it to print to a PDF printer (rather than  
> save to disk).
>
> cheers
> Mathew
>
>
> Guy Morton wrote:
>> I've been struggling with this for a while so I thought I'd ask here
>> to see if someone else has come across this problem and found a
>> workable solution.
>>
>> I have a client for whom I maintain a number of html-formatted
>> document templates. These are editable via a web interface using the
>> tinyMCE editor, which is very groovy and which works well. I use TT
>> to render these templates into documents for further processing into
>> PDFs.
>>
>> HTMLDOC is the application I've used in the past to convert these
>> documents into PDF, however it does not support unicode and therefore
>> cannot render chinese characters in documents.
>>
>> So, what I need is a way to convert my utf-8 charset HTML-formatted
>> documents into PDF.
>>
>> Anyone got a suggestion as to what might work?
>>
>> Guy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Melbourne-pm mailing list
>> Melbourne-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm
>>

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From tjc at wintrmute.net  Tue Oct 23 23:18:38 2007
From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:18:38 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] unicode html->pdf?
In-Reply-To: <9FE37665-0F78-4D20-B06A-5F2B88F94E50@alchemy.com.au>
References: <AB5B9FB1-5B52-4D12-8545-C8B63F25E7AA@alchemy.com.au>	<471EBDE2.5030706@netratings.com.au>
	<9FE37665-0F78-4D20-B06A-5F2B88F94E50@alchemy.com.au>
Message-ID: <471EE3BE.6090001@wintrmute.net>

Guy Morton wrote:
> Hi Mathew
> 
> Trouble is, I need the file on the server because I email it out from
> there. 

Hmm, I thought I saw talk of a client-server implementation of the
Firefox plugin on a list somewhere.
(So you have a PC running Firefox and a special plugin and it just sits
there, loading pages and generating PDFs and sending them back somehow.)
Of course, I don't remember enough detail of whether they completed this
plugin or not.. Might be worth searching for though, or just
implementing yourself.

Or you could create an XSLT that takes HTML as it's source, and produces
PDF output - I used that previously in the method I mentioned before.
Although, I only handled very basic aspects of HTML - font manipulation,
headings, images, indentation, alignment, links, etc. but it didn't
support CSS.

However, you can hardcode the positional stuff into the XSL-FO, if
you're only using a few templates and don't want to change the layout in
HTML.

Toby

From wigs at stirfried.org  Wed Oct 24 16:14:45 2007
From: wigs at stirfried.org (wigs at stirfried.org)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:14:45 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Pls explain?
In-Reply-To: <471EA0ED.9010003@perltraining.com.au>
References: <200710241020.25853.brendon.oliver@gmail.com>
	<471E932A.703@perltraining.com.au>
	<471E957A.7010202@netratings.com.au>
	<471EA0ED.9010003@perltraining.com.au>
Message-ID: <20071024231445.GA1506@stirfried.org>

On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 11:33:33AM +1000, Jacinta Richardson wrote:
> It was covered in the "This Week on p5p 2000/05/21"
> (http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/05/p5pdigest/THISWEEK-20000521.html#my_x_if_0;_Trick)
> 
> Apparently Perl 5.10 throws a big fat warning if it sees this kind of behaviour.

Also, the perlcritic policy
Perl::Critic::Policy::Variables::ProhibitConditionalDeclarations will also pick
up on instances of this in your source code.

-- 
Aaron

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Wed Oct 24 20:08:15 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (jarich at perltraining.com.au)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:08:15 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC 2007's Tutorial Program
Message-ID: <20071025030815.B437EA8B9F@teddybear.perltraining.com.au>

Dear Melbourne PM members,

Registrations are open for the Open Source Developers' Conference 2007:
http://www.osdc.com.au/registration/index.html

The early bird has been partially extended.  Book before October 31st to
save $30, and to get your free t-shirt.  No t-shirts will be available
after the 31st October!

Key information:

        31st October            - Extended almost-early bird date

        26th November           - Tutorials
        27th - 29th November    - Technical programme
        28th November           - Google Conference Dinner

        Royal on the Park Hotel
        Cnr Alice & Albert Streets
        Brisbane CBD
        Queensland

The Open Source Developers' Conference is an Australian conference covering
talks about software development for open source languages and projects;
regardless of operating system.  There will be 3-4 streams of talks over
the three days of technical programme, with combined keynotes at the start
of each day.  Morning and afternoon teas, and lunch will be provided.  The
Google Conference Dinner will be held on the night of the 28th November
(each full registration includes one ticket (until sold out)).

Tutorial attendance will include a tea break, lunch and printed reference
material.  Tutorials cost $250 each.

Our tutorial program is included below:

                Room 1
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 9:00am "MySQL Optimisation by Design"  by Arjen Lentz
12:30pm         Lunch   
 1:30pm "Advanced SQL for Developers (PostgreSQL)"  by Evan Leybourn
 5:00pm         End
---------------------------------------------------------------------


		Room 2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 9:00am "Test Driven Development"  by Kirrily Robert
12:30pm         Lunch                   
 1:30pm "Getting Started with Bazaar"  by Ian Clatworthy
 5:00pm         End
---------------------------------------------------------------------

		Room 3
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 9:00am "Incident Response using PyFlag - the Forensic and Log Analysis
 	GUI"  by Dr Michael Cohen
12:30pm         Lunch                   
 1:30pm "Groovy Tutorial"  by Dr Paul W King
 5:00pm         End
---------------------------------------------------------------------

A tea break will occur roughly half way through each tutorial.

For more information on what each tutorial covers, please follow the links
from the schedule:

	http://www.cgpublisher.com/conferences/107/web/program-detail.html

Prices and information on how to register can be found at:

        http://www.osdc.com.au/registration/index.html

You can help us make this conference be the best developers' conference
this year just by turning up and participating!  We look forward to sharing
this great conference with you.  

If your business would like to benefit from exposure to many of Australia's
best open source developers then perhaps you should consider sponsorship.
We have a wide range of sponsorship options, to find out more information
please visit: http://www.osdc.com.au/sponsors/index.html

Many thanks go to our sponsors: Apress, Brisbane PHP, BuilderAU, Common
Ground, Google, Linux Magazine, Opengear, Open Query, Red Hat,
realestate.com.au, Sun Microsystems, Trolltech, Woodslane,
Zac-Ware/Freeway.

	Jacinta Richardson 
	OSDC Publicity Officer

From pjf at perltraining.com.au  Thu Oct 25 05:07:42 2007
From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:07:42 +1000
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Slidecast: Effective Procrastination with HiveMinder
Message-ID: <4720870E.90404@perltraining.com.au>

G'day Everyone,

For anyone who missed my talk on effective procrastination, or who wants to
hear it again, I've recently slide-casted it here:

http://www.slideshare.net/pjf/effective-procrastination-with-hiveminder/

Cheerio,

	Paul

-- 
Paul Fenwick <pjf at perltraining.com.au> | http://perltraining.com.au/
Director of Training                   | Ph:  +61 3 9354 6001
Perl Training Australia                | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681

From leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au  Sun Oct 28 18:34:13 2007
From: leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au (leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:34:13 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC - I have a car Wednesday 28/11/07
Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769802BC36AA@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>

Anyone going to OSDC 2007, I will be picking up a hire car at Brisbane
A/P around 9-9:30am Wed 28th November.
 
Anyone needing a lift to the conference, who is in the A/P around that
time is welcome to jump aboard. Its just a little Corolla, so I cant
take more than 4 others, assuming minimal luggage.
 
I'm flying up on JQ630 from Avalon if anyone else is on that flight.
 
I'll be attending the dinner that night, but heading off down the coast
for a few days, at around 8:30pm or there abouts, so I cant offer lifts
to hotels etc.
 
L
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From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Sun Oct 28 19:36:13 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:36:13 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] OSDC - I have a car Wednesday 28/11/07
In-Reply-To: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769802BC36AA@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
References: <6462CBB658614845A7702E379880769802BC36AA@exhnat2.nsw.hpa>
Message-ID: <4725471D.3070705@perltraining.com.au>

For those who might not be paying attention, Wednesday is day 2 of the technical
content of the conference.  I assume from this that Leif may have other plans
preventing him from attending the full program

> I'll be attending the dinner that night, but heading off down the coast
> for a few days, at around 8:30pm or there abouts, so I cant offer lifts
> to hotels etc.

Hopefully most people will be within walking distance to their accommodation of
choice.  If you're not planning to stay at the conference venue some other
nearby hotels and some close(ish) hostels are mentioned at:

	http://osdc.com.au/location/accommodation.html

All the best,

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |

From jarich at perltraining.com.au  Wed Oct 31 22:25:09 2007
From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:25:09 +1100
Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Calling for Open Day Participants
Message-ID: <47296335.4060001@perltraining.com.au>

For those who attended Open Day at LCA 2007, you'll know it was a great melting
pot for everyone.  For those who didn't; it was an awesome event where parents,
children, interested parties and more came in to learn about cool open source
projects!  We had sponsor stands, and stacks of community stands.  There was the
solar powered car, a huge gaming area (VR, Stepmania and others), OLPC, talks
and lots more.

If you'd like to run a stand at the 2008 LCA, or want to suggest someone I
should be inviting please contact me.

Thanks,

	J

-- 
   ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._          |  Jacinta Richardson         |
    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  |  Perl Training Australia    |
    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'   |      +61 3 9354 6001        |
  _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'           | contact at perltraining.com.au |
 (il),-''  (li),'  ((!.-'             |   www.perltraining.com.au   |