From jarich at perltraining.com.au Thu Aug 2 18:42:24 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:42:24 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Next week's meeting - 8th August Message-ID: <46B28800.9090303@perltraining.com.au> G'day everyone, Next week Melbourne Perl Mongers will be hosting the Open Source Developers' Club meeting. The meeting place will be at the same place and time as usual. 6:30pm Wednesday 8th August Editure Level 8 14 Blackwood Street North Melbourne Our talks for the night will be: An Illustrated History of Failure, Paul Fenwick ----------------------------------------------- The average individual is given little scope for failure, at least not the type that really matters. The opportunity for catastrophic failure, that influences nations or continents, has been traditionally reserved for royalty, parliament, and others in a position of great leadership. However in recent times we have developed a profession who have the opportunity to fail like never before. A profession that can make mistakes that are so monumental, so wide-reaching, and so costly they can shake civilization to its very core. This elite group, rarely seen by every day society, are the foundation upon which modern society depends. The few, the proud, the System Administrators. Join us for a voyage of discovery, as we travel back through history to some of the most monumental failures the world has ever seen. Introduction to Selenium, Simon Hildebrandt ------------------------------------------- Selenium is an open source test automation tool for testing web applications. It runs tests directly in a browser - just like your users do! It can use IE, Mozilla and Firefox on Windows, Linux and Macintosh. With the Firefox plugin creating tests is as easy and clicking and selecting text. However these tests can be compiled into a format that works with Java, .NET, Perl, Python and Ruby! Simon will give a whirl-wind tour of Selenium and how much easier it can make your web applications testing. Please invite your friends, family and colleagues along to attend! All the very best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From tconnors at astro.swin.edu.au Sun Aug 5 20:08:16 2007 From: tconnors at astro.swin.edu.au (Tim Connors) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:08:16 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] passing arrays and hashes Message-ID: I thought I was doing the proper thing by passsing a reference to a hash and dereferncing it in a function, rather than passing the entire hash around the place all the time. sub blah($$$) { my ($file,$md5sum,$trashmd5p)=(@_); my %trashmd5=%$trashmd5p; ... } blah($file,$md5sum,\%trashmd5) ... I found this much much slower than I was expecting. As an experiment, I decided just to pass the hash straight to the function: sub blah($$%) { my ($file,$md5sum,%trashmd5)=(@_); ... } blah($file,$md5sum,%trashmd5) ... This was a bit quicker. And of course, just using a global was very quick. I think I can see why passing the reference is slow -- perl wants to go through and create a whole new hash in this stage creating a duplicate reference to every item in %$trashmd5p: my %trashmd5=%$trashmd5p; It doesn't realise %trashmd5 is only a readonly copy, and that it would suffice simply to derefence it just like in C. Having found my workaround, and this being part of a very long running script, I don't particularly feel the want to experiment much more, but what is the way around this? Being a readonly copy, can I simply adopt the slightly more verbose referencing to ${$trashmd5p}{key} everytime instead of $trashmd5{key}, and this wouldn't go and recreate a fresh hash from scratch? -- Tim Connors From brendon.oliver at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 20:21:37 2007 From: brendon.oliver at gmail.com (Brendon Oliver) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:21:37 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] passing arrays and hashes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200708061321.38000.brendon.oliver@gmail.com> On Monday 06 August 2007 13:08:16 Tim Connors wrote: > Being a readonly copy, can I simply adopt > the slightly more verbose referencing to ${$trashmd5p}{key} everytime > instead of $trashmd5{key}, and this wouldn't go and recreate a fresh hash > from scratch? Short answer is, I believe, yes. But (to me), ${$trashmd5p}{key} would be more clearly written as: $trashmd5p->{key} you won't get a 2nd copy of the entire hash which is what you're doing when: my %trashmd5=%$trashmd5p; (caveat: not knowing what else you might be doing with the contents of $trashmd5p, there might be better / other solutions too). Cheers, - Brendon. -- Distress, n.: A disease incurred by exposure to the prosperity of a friend. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" 13:17:33 up 6:23, 1 user, load average: 0.25, 0.19, 0.23 From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 6 04:57:57 2007 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (Andrew Savige) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 21:57:57 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] passing arrays and hashes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <655619.49746.qm@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> --- Tim Connors wrote: > I thought I was doing the proper thing by passsing a reference to a hash > and dereferncing it in a function, rather than passing the entire hash > around the place all the time. > > sub blah($$$) { > my ($file,$md5sum,$trashmd5p)=(@_); > my %trashmd5=%$trashmd5p; > ... > } As noted in Perl Best Practices, chapter 9, it is best to NOT use subroutine prototypes: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlbp/chapter/index.html Luckily, chapter 9 is the free download chapter and section 9.10 of this excellent book explains why. I strongly recommend this book. > I think I can see why passing the reference is slow -- perl wants to go > through and create a whole new hash in this stage creating a duplicate > reference to every item in %$trashmd5p: > my %trashmd5=%$trashmd5p; Yes that would create a copy. Here is how I would write it: sub blah { my ($file,$md5sum,$trashmd5p)=(@_); # example code to print the hash ... for my $k (sort keys %$trashmd5p) { print $k, " ", $trashmd5p->{$k}, "\n"; } # ... } Done this way, you pass the hash by reference and no copy is made. In particular, note the $trashmd5p->{$k} notation, nicely suggested already by Brendon Oliver (aka TUGS). For more information on Perl references, see: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlref.html References are also described in many Perl books. I remember a particularly good explanation in the good ol' "shiny ball" book, Effective Perl Programming: http://books.perl.org/book/174 Though quite old now, this remains an excellent book. I fondly remember this book as the one that helped me stop writing Perl in C style and start using native Perl idioms effectively. HTH, /-\ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with unlimited storage on all webmail accounts. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/unlimitedstorage.html From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Aug 6 05:44:15 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:44:15 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form Message-ID: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Hi everyone, Perl Training Australia has had a unused Jobs mailing list for a while now with the bold intent of allowing all the businesses who contact us regarding Perl consulting and jobs to have (moderated) access to past students of ours (opt-in) and other interested people. But we've been busy and lazy and nothing has happened. I anticipate that the list will receive in the order of 300 subscribers when we make it live. Today I spent all day putting together a jobs submission page for businesses. This was partially caused by Skud's "How not to write a Perl job" post[0] and the discussion we had while she was writting it, and also from yet another request for Perl programmers. [0] http://infotrope.net/blog/2007/07/31/how-not-to-write-a-perl-job-ad/ I've taken Skud's, Ovid's[1], Adrian's[2] and Joel Spolsky's[3] advice, and tried to make the potential employer answer all the questions I've ever have about a job when I'm reading the advert. Still I've left lots of them optional just in case they can't be bothered. [1] http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/24933 [2] http://use.perl.org/~Adrian/journal/33295 [3] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000050.html This isn't up for real yet. There's lots of work to be done, including javascript tooltips, improved page linking and the creation of a back-end to handle submissions. What I'm asking for right now is feedback. The jobs submission page and guidelines can be found at: http://perltraining.com.au/jobs/ http://perltraining.com.au/jobs/guidelines.html * Would you use this form, or decide it was just too hard? * Have I missed any really important questions? * Have I missed any really important _options_ in my multi-option questions? * Do you think I should change what is/isn't optional? * Are there things you think I should leave out? * What else should I be covering in the guidelines? * Any other feedback. _jobs.perl.org_. Before you ask, I just want to say that yes I'm very aware of this wonderful service! Unfortunately there are a lot of Perl programmers in Australia who are completely uninterested in being part of the Perl community. Many of our students are in this category. While I expect that I can ask them to let me subscribe them to our mailing list, I don't think I could ever get them to subscribe to the jobs.perl.org list. My compromise is suggesting that employers also submit their job to jobs.perl.org, hopefully we'll just help them think a little about what they want to post first. :) Thankyou in advance. All the very best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From ddick at aapt.net.au Mon Aug 6 14:47:46 2007 From: ddick at aapt.net.au (David Dick) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:47:46 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <46B79702.3020007@aapt.net.au> Jacinta Richardson wrote: > * Have I missed any really important _options_ in my multi-option questions? > For the "other" options, it would probably be useful to have a text box to describe what "other" option is > * Any other feedback. > How about a "preview" button so a company can see what their ad will look like to a potential employee? And something tells me that, one way or another, the ansa's to the joel test questions are gonna be funny... :) From andy at mopoke.co.uk Mon Aug 6 15:06:01 2007 From: andy at mopoke.co.uk (Andy Kelk) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 08:06:01 +1000 (EST) Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <47391.203.13.23.48.1186437961.squirrel@mopoke.homedns.org> I think most of these questions would be better answered by the development team rather than the recruiters. It might be beneficial to recommend that recruiters get help when filling it in. Otherwise you might get some funky results. > * Any other feedback. "Link opens in new window" (when hovering over the "Joel Test" and "Why use Perl?" links). It doesn't. Andy From lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au Mon Aug 6 16:01:09 2007 From: lsharpe at pacificwireless.com.au (Leigh Sharpe) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 09:01:09 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: >* Any other feedback. Being really pedantic, they're cubicles, not cubicals. Leigh From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Aug 6 16:26:28 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 09:26:28 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <46B79702.3020007@aapt.net.au> References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> <46B79702.3020007@aapt.net.au> Message-ID: <46B7AE24.5010507@perltraining.com.au> David Dick wrote: > Jacinta Richardson wrote: >> * Have I missed any really important _options_ in my multi-option >> questions? >> > For the "other" options, it would probably be useful to have a text box > to describe what "other" option is Yup, I want that too. :) >> * Any other feedback. >> > How about a "preview" button so a company can see what their ad will > look like to a potential employee? There aren't any buttons yet (I hope) but yes, they'll get a preview of what their email will look like and will be able to rewrite and preview until they're content. > And something tells me that, one way or another, the ansa's to the joel > test questions are gonna be funny... :) When I did more consulting, we'd have clients who wouldn't even rate 1. Generally they responded well to good advice however. :) Thankyou for your suggestions. All the best, Jacinta From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Aug 6 16:33:07 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 09:33:07 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <47391.203.13.23.48.1186437961.squirrel@mopoke.homedns.org> References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> <47391.203.13.23.48.1186437961.squirrel@mopoke.homedns.org> Message-ID: <46B7AFB3.9090905@perltraining.com.au> Andy Kelk wrote: > I think most of these questions would be better answered by the > development team rather than the recruiters. It might be beneficial to > recommend that recruiters get help when filling it in. Otherwise you might > get some funky results. Good point. >> * Any other feedback. > > "Link opens in new window" (when hovering over the "Joel Test" and "Why > use Perl?" links). It doesn't. As I found out last night, the "target" link in anchor tags has be deprecated in XHTML Strict. There's a work-around, but I haven't implemented it yet, so the hover tags (titles) are lying. Thanks for the reminder! Jacinta From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Aug 6 16:35:22 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 09:35:22 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B7B03A.6050101@perltraining.com.au> Leigh Sharpe wrote: >> * Any other feedback. > > Being really pedantic, they're cubicles, not cubicals. Hehe, pendantry is welcome, I'd rather avoid dumb spelling mistakes. :) All the best, Jacinta From jens at porup.com Tue Aug 7 07:16:35 2007 From: jens at porup.com (Jens Porup) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 09:16:35 -0500 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Fwd: Senior Linux Engineer - Lonely Planet Message-ID: <1186496195.9643.1204167481@webmail.messagingengine.com> hi all, In my new job as a writer for Lonely Planet I have been thoroughly underwhelmed by the quality of IT people I've worked with in their Melbourne head office. If anyone is looking for a chance to really shine in an otherwise mediocre IT department, close to the CBD (Footscray), with I believe some travel-related benefits (discounted guidebooks, anyway), this might be a job for someone here on the list. This is the second time David has posted this to luv-jobs in the last month so I reckon he's having some trouble filling the role. cheers, Jens On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 16:29:00 +1000, "David Lutz" said: > > At Lonely Planet we live to travel. Everything we do is designed to > inspire and enable travellers to get out there and connect with the > world beyond personal and geographical boundaries. Across all areas of > Lonely Planet, we look for talented people who share our passion. > > Lonely Planet currently operates a number of Linux based systems > within its offices and in co-located hosting facilities in > Melbourne. Its web server infrastructure is based on a clustered > environment of Linux servers. The Infrastructure Delivery group is > responsible for the day-to-day operation of a number of IT systems > including the public-facing high-traffic websites, administered from > the Melbourne head office. > > The role of the Senior Linux Engineer at Lonely Planet is to configure > and install operating systems and applications services on these > servers and to maintain these systems to achieve a high level of > availability and performance. The role involves mentoring and > training Linux administrators in the team and supporting the software > development team at Lonely Planet. > > To be successful in the role you will be an experienced Linux > administrator with mentoring or management skills, have worked with > web applications in a commercial environment and have extensive > experience supporting development teams. You will have proven > experience with Tomcat application servers, Redhat Enterprise Linux, > Free BSD, advanced knowledge of web related technologies, strong shell > and perl scripting skills, excellent trouble shooting skills and have > supported high volume transactional systems ie. business critical. > > Applications close 20th August 2007. > > Enquiries should be directed to Menaka Radhakrishnan Recruitment > Consultant 8379 8000 menaka.radhakrishnan at lonelyplanet.com.au > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email, including attachments, is intended only for the addressee > and may be confidential, privileged and subject to copyright. If you > have received this email in error, please advise the sender and delete > it. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must not > use, copy or disclose its content to anyone. You must not copy or > communicate to others content that is confidential or subject to > copyright, unless you have the consent of the content owner. From skud at infotrope.net Tue Aug 7 07:17:45 2007 From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 07:17:45 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: Hi Jacinta, A couple of thoughts... "Job basics" focusses on programming tasks and doesn't mention such things as documentation, testing, customer liaison, team leadership, project management, etc. Those are the activities I most want to know about when looking at a job description; is it a straight dev job or are there other responsibilities? "Development process" as a radio button selection seems limited. Many places use a hybrid, or vary depending on project, or whatever. Perhaps provide a textarea with descriptive text linking to some of the examples given on the list? You mention "office politics" in the work environment section. I'd rephrase; I don't think people will take that question seriously as is. Perhaps add another positive option to the list? The text in the guidelines page seems more positive in flavour, so perhaps use some of that? "Company size" conflates three questions: actual size (one choice from a list), whether the company is publicly listed (boolean), and whether the company is multi-national (boolean). Perhaps you should make the last two items independent checkboxes? (If a company's publicly listed, I like to check the stock price history and google around for financially-oriented articles about the company, to see whether the world in general thinks they're onto a good thing or not.) And what about team size? Being the sole IT person is very different from working in a large team. You don't mention travel/telecommute; I know jobs.perl.org does. Perhaps you could add them? Would you accept job ads for international (non-AU/NZ) companies that are looking for telecommuters? What about international companies that would particularly like to recruit Australians and will facilitate visas/relocation? I think those would both be worth hearing about, but I'd want them to be up-front about what's going on. That'll do for now ;) K. -- Kirrily Robert skud at infotrope.net http://infotrope.net From melbourne.pm at joshheumann.com Tue Aug 7 16:50:41 2007 From: melbourne.pm at joshheumann.com (Josh Heumann) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 16:50:41 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <20070807235041.GA31923@joshheumann.com> > "Development process" as a radio button selection seems limited. Many > places use a hybrid, or vary depending on project, or whatever. > Perhaps provide a textarea with descriptive text linking to some of > the examples given on the list? That might be too much for some folks, especially given that the people posting the ads aren't always so technical. Checkboxed should be fine. I'd also add that while the 'Remember it's "Perl" not "PERL"' bit it cute, it can be telling when someone types the latter mistakenly. J From jarich at perltraining.com.au Tue Aug 7 22:49:02 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:49:02 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <46B9594E.8030801@perltraining.com.au> G'day Kirrily, Thanks for your feedback, I've tried to incorporate them as much as I can. > "Development process" as a radio button selection seems limited. Many > places use a hybrid, or vary depending on project, or whatever. > Perhaps provide a textarea with descriptive text linking to some of > the examples given on the list? You suggest a text area and Josh suggests keeping it as radio buttons. What do others think? > You don't mention travel/telecommute; I know jobs.perl.org does. > Perhaps you could add them? Would you accept job ads for > international (non-AU/NZ) companies that are looking for > telecommuters? What about international companies that would > particularly like to recruit Australians and will facilitate > visas/relocation? I think those would both be worth hearing about, > but I'd want them to be up-front about what's going on. I haven't really thought much about travel/telecommuting. Nor of companies who want to poach Australians. How/where would you address these things in my form? > That'll do for now ;) That was excellent feedback! ;) All the best, Jacinta From jarich at perltraining.com.au Wed Aug 8 16:24:27 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:24:27 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <46BA50AB.9010200@perltraining.com.au> Would it be of interest to ask businesses which version of Perl they're using? Does that kind of thing influence how willing you are to work with them? J From alfiejohn at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 16:32:11 2007 From: alfiejohn at gmail.com (Alfie John) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:32:11 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] RFC: Perl jobs mailing list guidelines and submission form In-Reply-To: <46BA50AB.9010200@perltraining.com.au> References: <46B7179F.4030007@perltraining.com.au> <46BA50AB.9010200@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: unless it's 4 or 5.003, I'm pretty sure people will adjust ;) Alfie On 8/9/07, Jacinta Richardson wrote: > > Would it be of interest to ask businesses which version of Perl they're using? > Does that kind of thing influence how willing you are to work with them? > > J > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > From wjmoore at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 22:23:27 2007 From: wjmoore at gmail.com (Wesley Moore) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:23:27 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Unexpected hashref behaviour Message-ID: <664f64be0708162223w3a6994e0x9cf5b66400a602d1@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, Wondering if anyone can shed some light on the behaviour that a colleague noticed in some of our code, replicated below. My guess is it has something to do with elements in a foreach loop being aliases to the real element combined with autovivification, but its just that - a guess. Wes #!/bin/perl -w use strict; use Data::Dumper; my $h = {}; $h->{ k } = undef; print Dumper $h; foreach my $k ( @{ $h->{k} } ) {} print Dumper $h; $ ~/perl/djp2.pl $VAR1 = { 'k' => undef }; $VAR1 = { 'k' => [] }; From gmonson at realestate.com.au Thu Aug 16 22:44:41 2007 From: gmonson at realestate.com.au (Gary Monson) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:44:41 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Unexpected hashref behaviour In-Reply-To: <664f64be0708162223w3a6994e0x9cf5b66400a602d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <664f64be0708162223w3a6994e0x9cf5b66400a602d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D07350975@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au> Hi Wes It seems to me that it is autovivification as you guess, as if you do: #!/bin/perl -w use strict; use Data::Dumper; my $h = {}; $h->{ k } = undef; print Dumper $h; foreach my $k (keys %{ $h->{k} } ) {} print Dumper $h; then you get: $ ~/perl/djp2.pl $VAR1 = { 'k' => undef }; $VAR1 = { 'k' => {} }; So it is turning it into what you are treating it as. It seems to make no difference if you have the $h->{k} = undef line or not. It does this when there is no such element beforehand, and when it is undef. When it has some other value, it reports an error, as expected: Can't use string ("1") as an ARRAY ref while "strict refs" in use.... >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autovivification: 'Autovivification is the automatic creation of a reference when an undefined value is dereferenced.' This is, of course, what your script is doing - dereferencing the undefined hash element. Gary Monson Software Developer realestate.com.au the biggest address in property T: 03 8456 4357 E: gmonson at realestate.com.au W: www.realestate.com.au ASX: REA Warning - This email transmission may contain confidential information. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us immediately on (61 3) 9897 1121 or reply by email to the sender. You must destroy the email immediately and not use, copy, distribute or disclose the contents. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: melbourne-pm-bounces+gmonson=realestate.com.au at pm.org [mailto:melbourne-pm-bounces+gmonson=realestate.com.au at pm.org] On Behalf Of Wesley Moore Sent: Friday, 17 August 2007 3:23 PM To: Melbourne Perlmongers Cc: david.pitt at nab.com.au Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Unexpected hashref behaviour Hello all, Wondering if anyone can shed some light on the behaviour that a colleague noticed in some of our code, replicated below. My guess is it has something to do with elements in a foreach loop being aliases to the real element combined with autovivification, but its just that - a guess. Wes #!/bin/perl -w use strict; use Data::Dumper; my $h = {}; $h->{ k } = undef; print Dumper $h; foreach my $k ( @{ $h->{k} } ) {} print Dumper $h; $ ~/perl/djp2.pl $VAR1 = { 'k' => undef }; $VAR1 = { 'k' => [] }; _______________________________________________ Melbourne-pm mailing list Melbourne-pm at pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm From alfiejohn at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 02:51:17 2007 From: alfiejohn at gmail.com (Alfie John) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:51:17 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Unexpected hashref behaviour In-Reply-To: <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D07350975@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au> References: <664f64be0708162223w3a6994e0x9cf5b66400a602d1@mail.gmail.com> <6FA6124E9378214883CA93A54AED601D07350975@EMAIL.win.int.realestate.com.au> Message-ID: Hey Wes, If you don't want the autovivification, you could try changing the dereference: --- 8< --- #!/bin/perl -w use strict; use Data::Dumper; my $h = {}; $h->{ k } = undef; print Dumper $h; foreach my $k ( @{ $h->{k} || [] } ) {} print Dumper $h; administrators-powerbook-g4-12:~/tmp alfie$ perl t.pl $VAR1 = { 'k' => undef }; $VAR1 = { 'k' => undef }; --- >8 --- Alfie http://www.Share-House.com.au not the biggest address in property From skud at infotrope.net Sun Aug 19 18:46:28 2007 From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:46:28 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] State of the association? Message-ID: At the AGM a couple of months ago there was a vote to disband Melb.PM as a legal association and use the OSDClub as an umbrella for indemnity purposes etc. What came of that? K. -- Kirrily Robert skud at infotrope.net http://infotrope.net From skud at infotrope.net Sun Aug 19 18:46:28 2007 From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:46:28 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] State of the association? Message-ID: At the AGM a couple of months ago there was a vote to disband Melb.PM as a legal association and use the OSDClub as an umbrella for indemnity purposes etc. What came of that? K. -- Kirrily Robert skud at infotrope.net http://infotrope.net From alecclews at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 23:27:16 2007 From: alecclews at gmail.com (Alec Clews) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:27:16 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] State of the association? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C93444.9090808@gmail.com> Kirrily Robert wrote: > At the AGM a couple of months ago there was a vote to disband Melb.PM > as a legal association and use the OSDClub as an umbrella for > indemnity purposes etc. What came of that? > AFIK it's still a 'live' proposal. However I guess the committee needs to 'formally' agree to approach OSDC? I did ask the list about starting some sort of meeting or discussion , but so far no reply. So how about it committee officers? -- Alec Clews Melbourne, Australia. Jabber: alecclews at jabber.org.au PGPKey ID: 0x9BBBFC7C blog:http://alecthegeek.wordpress.com/ From leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au Mon Aug 20 17:25:22 2007 From: leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au (leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:25:22 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] State of the association? Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E37988076980274DFBA@exhnat2.nsw.hpa> I posted a mail suggesting we get one of our compulsory meetings out of the way before or after the next MPM - so now we have an agenda item!!! So I propose (again) we have a committee meeting before/after the next MPM. Any takers ? L > -----Original Message----- > From: alecclews at gmail.com [mailto:alecclews at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, 20 August 2007 4:27 PM > To: skud at infotrope.net > Cc: melbourne-pm at pm.org > Subject: Re: [Melbourne-pm] State of the association? > > Kirrily Robert wrote: > > At the AGM a couple of months ago there was a vote to > disband Melb.PM > > as a legal association and use the OSDClub as an umbrella for > > indemnity purposes etc. What came of that? > > > AFIK it's still a 'live' proposal. However I guess the > committee needs to 'formally' agree to approach OSDC? > > I did ask the list about starting some sort of meeting or > discussion , but so far no reply. > > So how about it committee officers? > > -- > Alec Clews Melbourne, Australia. > Jabber: alecclews at jabber.org.au PGPKey ID: 0x9BBBFC7C > blog:http://alecthegeek.wordpress.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > ********************************************************************** IMPORTANT The contents of this e-mail and its attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the HPA Postmaster, postmaster at hpa.com.au, then delete the e-mail. This footnote also confirms that this e-mail message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses by Ironport. Before opening or using any attachments, check them for viruses and defects. Our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. HPA collects personal information to provide and market our services. For more information about use, disclosure and access see our Privacy Policy at www.hpa.com.au ********************************************************************** From jarich at perltraining.com.au Tue Aug 28 01:01:54 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:01:54 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Any Adelaide Perl Mongers out there? Message-ID: <46D3D672.3080708@perltraining.com.au> G'day everyone, Are there any Adelaide Perl Mongers sitting on this list who'd like to catch up with Paul Fenwick and perhaps have an impromptu pub meeting on either the 19th or 20th September? If you are able to arrange a location and data projector I'm sure he'd be happy to give a presentation. Paul'll be teaching on Grenfell St near Frome Street and staying on Pulteney St between North Tce and Rundle Mall, so anywhere within walking distance from there would make a great spot. All the best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact at perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From rick at measham.id.au Tue Aug 28 12:28:42 2007 From: rick at measham.id.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 05:28:42 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Really bad job ads Message-ID: <46D4776A.2060501@measham.id.au> Continuing on the rant for really bad job ads from some weeks back, let me present the following: http://it.seek.com.au/users/apply/index.ascx?JobID=10334646 (If you can't follow the link, the text follows) As you'll see, there is absolutely NOTHING in the ad that I find even remotely useful after "6 month contract". Every other useful piece of information is in the headline. Bah! Cheers! Rick Measham PERL & UNIX Technical Specialist- Long Term Contract, Excellent $$$ 6 Month Contract Large Global Company Excellent Long Term Support Career Opportunity Our client, one of the most recognisable companies in the world, is currently searching for an experienced IT Professional with extensive UNIX & PERL scripting experience. Working for this large corporate you will be expected to possess the following: Skills/Experiences: * Extensive PERL scripting experience * Extensive UNIX scripting expertise * Large corporate experience * Support experience This is an excellent opportunity for someone looking for a long term contract role that will offer excellent long term development and opportunity. Working in an environment notorious for looking after their contractors and offering an extremely flexible workplace. Offering excellent rates and an exceptional work environment this is a great opportunity not to be missed for an experienced IT professional. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3241 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/melbourne-pm/attachments/20070829/3d686634/attachment.bin From skud at infotrope.net Tue Aug 28 12:32:09 2007 From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:32:09 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Really bad job ads In-Reply-To: <46D4776A.2060501@measham.id.au> References: <46D4776A.2060501@measham.id.au> Message-ID: *groan* ... that's a shockingly bad ad, even by Seek's normal standards. K. -- Kirrily Robert skud at infotrope.net http://infotrope.net From skud at infotrope.net Tue Aug 28 12:34:11 2007 From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:34:11 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] What I Did On My Holidays Message-ID: I'm just wrapping up 3 weeks in San Francisco and the Bay Area, and I was wondering whether people would like me to present "What I did on my holidays" at Melbourne.pm's September meeting. I've visited a heap of Perl people and companies, attended a number of geek events (including the 600+ person BarCampBlock), and got inspired about a few new Perl projects. I figure there's a talk's worth of stuff there. K. -- Kirrily Robert skud at infotrope.net http://infotrope.net From cas at taz.net.au Tue Aug 28 15:43:57 2007 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:43:57 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] What I Did On My Holidays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070828224357.GA23773@taz.net.au> On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 12:34:11PM -0700, Kirrily Robert wrote: > I'm just wrapping up 3 weeks in San Francisco and the Bay Area, and I > was wondering whether people would like me to present "What I did on > my holidays" at Melbourne.pm's September meeting. I've visited a heap you're risking a revolution and an invasion by a horde of barbarians with a title like that. craig -- craig sanders From jarich at perltraining.com.au Tue Aug 28 18:58:47 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:58:47 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] What I Did On My Holidays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D4D2D7.7070404@perltraining.com.au> Kirrily Robert wrote: > I'm just wrapping up 3 weeks in San Francisco and the Bay Area, and I > was wondering whether people would like me to present "What I did on > my holidays" at Melbourne.pm's September meeting. I've visited a heap > of Perl people and companies, attended a number of geek events > (including the 600+ person BarCampBlock), and got inspired about a few > new Perl projects. I figure there's a talk's worth of stuff there. Sounds like fun. Will you be back in time? I thought you were going to be sailing down the coast. Alec, are there other talks arranged? Did anyone else want to talk about their holidays too? ;) J From skud at infotrope.net Tue Aug 28 20:16:20 2007 From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:16:20 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] What I Did On My Holidays In-Reply-To: <46D4D2D7.7070404@perltraining.com.au> References: <46D4D2D7.7070404@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: Jacinta wrote: > Sounds like fun. Will you be back in time? I thought you were going to be > sailing down the coast. Sailing's later, around OSDC time, and it's in the Whitsundays. This is where I go "nyer nyer nyer" :P I'm back from SFO on Thursday (30th August) so in plenty of time for MPM. K. -- Kirrily Robert skud at infotrope.net http://infotrope.net From leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au Tue Aug 28 20:17:43 2007 From: leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au (leif.eriksen at hpa.com.au) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:17:43 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] What I Did On My Holidays Message-ID: <6462CBB658614845A7702E3798807698028CE98F@exhnat2.nsw.hpa> My pangs of jealousy may make me swear loudly as you present each slide...so if you don't mind someone with Tourette's in your audience, go ahead. L > -----Original Message----- > From: skud at infotrope.net [mailto:skud at infotrope.net] > Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2007 5:34 AM > To: melbourne-pm at pm.org > Subject: [Melbourne-pm] What I Did On My Holidays > > I'm just wrapping up 3 weeks in San Francisco and the Bay > Area, and I was wondering whether people would like me to > present "What I did on my holidays" at Melbourne.pm's > September meeting. I've visited a heap of Perl people and > companies, attended a number of geek events (including the > 600+ person BarCampBlock), and got inspired about a few new > Perl projects. I figure there's a talk's worth of stuff there. > > K. > > -- > Kirrily Robert > skud at infotrope.net > http://infotrope.net > _______________________________________________ > Melbourne-pm mailing list > Melbourne-pm at pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pm > ********************************************************************** IMPORTANT The contents of this e-mail and its attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the HPA Postmaster, postmaster at hpa.com.au, then delete the e-mail. This footnote also confirms that this e-mail message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses by Ironport. Before opening or using any attachments, check them for viruses and defects. Our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. HPA collects personal information to provide and market our services. For more information about use, disclosure and access see our Privacy Policy at www.hpa.com.au ********************************************************************** From tjc at wintrmute.net Wed Aug 29 08:54:31 2007 From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:24:31 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Any Adelaide Perl Mongers out there? In-Reply-To: <46D5949A.8090103@wintrmute.net> References: <46D3D672.3080708@perltraining.com.au> <46D5949A.8090103@wintrmute.net> Message-ID: <46D596B7.8000609@wintrmute.net> Toby Corkindale wrote: > Jacinta Richardson wrote: >> G'day everyone, >> >> Are there any Adelaide Perl Mongers sitting on this list who'd like to catch up >> with Paul Fenwick and perhaps have an impromptu pub meeting on either the 19th >> or 20th September? If you are able to arrange a location and data projector I'm >> sure he'd be happy to give a presentation. > > It's funny you should mention this, but normally I'd definitely be up > for this.. Except that I'm heading down to Melbourne in the morning for > a couple of weeks.. and was about to post to the list to see if there > was going to be any Melbourne meets during that time.. .. and although I must have missed the mail originally, I see there's a meeting on the 8th of August, which I should be around for. Excellent! Toby. From tjc at wintrmute.net Wed Aug 29 08:58:04 2007 From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:28:04 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Any Adelaide Perl Mongers out there? In-Reply-To: <46D596B7.8000609@wintrmute.net> References: <46D3D672.3080708@perltraining.com.au> <46D5949A.8090103@wintrmute.net> <46D596B7.8000609@wintrmute.net> Message-ID: <46D5978C.1020406@wintrmute.net> Toby Corkindale wrote: > Toby Corkindale wrote: >> Jacinta Richardson wrote: >>> G'day everyone, >>> >>> Are there any Adelaide Perl Mongers sitting on this list who'd like to catch up >>> with Paul Fenwick and perhaps have an impromptu pub meeting on either the 19th >>> or 20th September? If you are able to arrange a location and data projector I'm >>> sure he'd be happy to give a presentation. >> It's funny you should mention this, but normally I'd definitely be up >> for this.. Except that I'm heading down to Melbourne in the morning for >> a couple of weeks.. and was about to post to the list to see if there >> was going to be any Melbourne meets during that time.. > > .. and although I must have missed the mail originally, I see there's a > meeting on the 8th of August, which I should be around for. Excellent! Note to self: Don't make calendar appointments when it's late, and you're staring at the wrong page. I'll go fetch my time machine in the morning. From jarich at perltraining.com.au Wed Aug 29 17:25:14 2007 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:25:14 +1000 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Any Adelaide Perl Mongers out there? In-Reply-To: <46D596B7.8000609@wintrmute.net> References: <46D3D672.3080708@perltraining.com.au> <46D5949A.8090103@wintrmute.net> <46D596B7.8000609@wintrmute.net> Message-ID: <46D60E6A.6060906@perltraining.com.au> Toby Corkindale wrote: > .. and although I must have missed the mail originally, I see there's a > meeting on the 8th of August, which I should be around for. Excellent! There's a meeting on the 11th September and again on the 10th October, with an OSDClub meeting assumed to be on the 4th October). Kirrily has offered to talk about what she did on her holidays at the September meeting. Perhaps you can make one of these? What are the dates you're in town? Would you like to give a talk? All the best, Jacinta From tjc at wintrmute.net Wed Aug 29 18:08:12 2007 From: tjc at wintrmute.net (Toby Corkindale) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:38:12 +0930 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Any Adelaide Perl Mongers out there? In-Reply-To: <46D60E6A.6060906@perltraining.com.au> References: <46D3D672.3080708@perltraining.com.au> <46D5949A.8090103@wintrmute.net> <46D596B7.8000609@wintrmute.net> <46D60E6A.6060906@perltraining.com.au> Message-ID: <46D6187C.9080807@wintrmute.net> Jacinta Richardson wrote: > Toby Corkindale wrote: > >> .. and although I must have missed the mail originally, I see there's a >> meeting on the 8th of August, which I should be around for. Excellent! > > There's a meeting on the 11th September and again on the 10th October, > with an OSDClub meeting assumed to be on the 4th October). Kirrily has > offered to talk about what she did on her holidays at the September > meeting. > > Perhaps you can make one of these? What are the dates you're in town? > Would you like to give a talk? I'll be in town from later today to around the 14-15th of September, so I'll be able to make the 11/09 meeting. I don't have anything in mind for a talk at the moment, but if I come up with something I'll let you know. (I have a couple of brief ideas that are more like discussion topics rather than talks) Until recently I was living in London, and although it's been good to see old friends in Adelaide, I'm visiting Melbourne with a view to possibly moving there.. As much as Adelaide has changed over the past five years, it still feels like many things are not represented there at all. See you soon, Toby From skud at infotrope.net Wed Aug 29 18:22:36 2007 From: skud at infotrope.net (Kirrily Robert) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:22:36 -0700 Subject: [Melbourne-pm] Any Adelaide Perl Mongers out there? In-Reply-To: <46D6187C.9080807@wintrmute.net> References: <46D3D672.3080708@perltraining.com.au> <46D5949A.8090103@wintrmute.net> <46D596B7.8000609@wintrmute.net> <46D60E6A.6060906@perltraining.com.au> <46D6187C.9080807@wintrmute.net> Message-ID: On 8/29/07, Toby Corkindale wrote: > Jacinta Richardson wrote: > > Perhaps you can make one of these? What are the dates you're in town? > > Would you like to give a talk? > > I'll be in town from later today to around the 14-15th of September, so > I'll be able to make the 11/09 meeting. > I don't have anything in mind for a talk at the moment, but if I come up > with something I'll let you know. (I have a couple of brief ideas that > are more like discussion topics rather than talks) MPM's pretty informal, so bring your discussion topics even if you don't come up with anything offically talk-like. We've recently had some good discussions that way, eg. the last meeting I was at had one on agile development. > Until recently I was living in London, and although it's been good to > see old friends in Adelaide, I'm visiting Melbourne with a view to > possibly moving there.. As much as Adelaide has changed over the past > five years, it still feels like many things are not represented there at > all. Hey, it's got... um... lots of churches? Yeah! K. -- Kirrily Robert skud at infotrope.net http://infotrope.net