From pjf at perltraining.com.au Mon Sep 1 23:09:19 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Fame! Honour! Present a talk at Melb.PM Message-ID: <20030902040919.GE19558@mukc.org.au> G'day Everyone, The second Wednesday of the month is approaching, and Melb.PM is looking for speakers to talk about any and all things Perl. Have you written a new module, found a great application for Perl, want to give a talk about your favourite module from CPAN, or recently written an Exegesis? If so, then we want *you* to give a talk to an enthusiastic and supportive audience of local Perl Mongers. No reasonable talk offer will be refused. This is your opportunity to become famous and well-known in one of Melbourne's rapidly growing and important programming communities. Act now to secure your place at the next Melb.PM meeting on the 10th of September, 2003! Talk topics should be posted to the list, so everyone can get excited about them. :) We look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 1 23:22:53 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Fame! Honour! Present a talk at Melb.PM In-Reply-To: <20030902040919.GE19558@mukc.org.au> Message-ID: <1F249B50-DCFD-11D7-84FF-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I have a micro talk (really short, I promise this time) on use of tied hashes with other people code.... hmmm that is not a good name... "How Tied hashes solved the problems of the world - well... DBD::CSV anyway" Maybe a description... "How we were able to get around a limitation on file name conventions in DBD::CSV by using a Tied Hash. How to create a simple tied hash and apply it." Scott On Tuesday, Sep 2, 2003, at 14:09 Australia/Melbourne, Paul Fenwick wrote: > G'day Everyone, > > The second Wednesday of the month is approaching, and Melb.PM > is looking for speakers to talk about any and all things Perl. Have > you written a new module, found a great application for Perl, > want to give a talk about your favourite module from CPAN, or > recently written an Exegesis? If so, then we want *you* to > give a talk to an enthusiastic and supportive audience of > local Perl Mongers. > > No reasonable talk offer will be refused. This is your > opportunity to become famous and well-known in one of Melbourne's > rapidly growing and important programming communities. Act > now to secure your place at the next Melb.PM meeting on the 10th > of September, 2003! > > Talk topics should be posted to the list, so everyone > can get excited about them. :) We look forward to hearing > from you. > > Cheers, > > Paul > > -- > Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ > Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 > Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 > > > - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/VBsgDCFCcmAm26YRAoXnAKCCqHtK138ZIZEtHQoEEcE7/YKf8gCfcDT6 sFE6E+haYz+OaBVIPqZf4+4= =ozVk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From 239114 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 17:02:00 2003 From: 239114 at yahoo.com (239114@yahoo.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Copy DVD's to a standard CD - without a DVD Burner 239114 Message-ID: <200309030847.h838lda12012@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030903/1e1b2fa5/attachment.htm From jraqzfi90 at mindspring.com Thu Sep 4 20:40:13 2003 From: jraqzfi90 at mindspring.com (Eldon Hardy) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Low Cost Easy to Use Conferencing jzdyvpjukb ieq Message-ID: <64$16a5$w9l38@kp36i7.22i> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030905/acb80790/attachment.htm From frankokonjo6 at 123.com Fri Sep 5 07:35:45 2003 From: frankokonjo6 at 123.com (frank okonjo) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: PLEASE READ Message-ID: BARRISTER FRANK OKONJO IGHO AZIZA LAW FIRM ATTORNEYS/LEGAL PRACTITIONERS NIGERIA GOOD DAY TO YOU. COMPLIMENTS OF THE SEASON. GRACE AND PEACE AND LOVE FROM THIS PART OF THE ATLANTIC TO YOU. I HOPE MY LETTER DOES NOT CAUSE YOU TOO MUCH EMBARRASSMENT AS I WRITE TO YOU IN GOOD FAITH BASED ON THE CONTACT ADDRESS GIVEN TO ME BY A FRIEND WHO WORKS AT THE NIGERIAN EMBASSYIN YOUR COUNTRY. PLEASE EXCUSE MY INTRUSION INTO YOUR PRIVATE LIFE. I AM FRANK OKONJO , I REPRESENT MOHAMMED ABACHA, SON OF THE LATE GEN. SANI ABACHA, WHO WAS THE FORMER MILITARY HEAD OF STATE IN NIGERIA. HE DIED IN 1998. SINCE HIS DEATH, THE FAMILY HAS BEEN LOSING A LOT OF MONEY DUE TO VINDICTIVE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO ARE BENT ON DEALING WITH THE FAMILY. BASED ON THIS THEREFORE, THE FAMILY HAS ASKED ME TO SEEK FOR A FOREIGN PARTNER WHO CAN WORK WITH US AS TO MOVE OUT THE TOTAL SUM OF US$75,000,000.00 ( SEVENTY FIVE MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS ), PRESENTLY IN THEIR POSSESSION. THIS MONEY WAS OF COURSE, ACQUIRED BY THE LATE PRESIDENT AND IS NOW KEPT SECRETLY BY THE FAMILY. THE SWISS GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY FROZEN ALL THE ACCOUNTS OF THE FAMILY IN SWITZERLAND, AND SOME OTHER COUNTRIES WOULD SOON FOLLOW TO DO THE SAME. THIS BID BY SOME GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TO DEAL WITH THIS FAMILY HAS MADE IT NECESSARY THAT WE SEEK YOUR ASSISITANCE IN RECEIVING THIS MONEY AND IN INVESTING IT ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILY. THIS MUST BE A JOINT VENTURE TRANSACTION AND WE MUST ALL WORK TOGETHER. SINCE THIS MONEY IS STILL CASH, EXTRA SECURITY MEASURES HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO PROTECT IT FROM THEFT OR SEIZURE, PENDING WHEN AGREEMENT IS REACHED ON WHEN AND HOW TO MOVE IT INTO ANY OF YOUR NOMINATED BANK ACCOUNTS. I HAVE PERSONALLY WORKED OUT ALL MODALITIES FOR THE PEACEFUL CONCLUSION OF THIS TRANSACTION. THE TRANSACTION DEFINITELY WOULD BE HANDLED IN PHASES AND THE FIRST PHASE WILL INVOLVE THE MOVING OF US$25,000,000.00( TWENTY FIVE MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS ). MY CLIENTS ARE WILLING TO GIVE YOU A REASONABLE PERCENTAGE OF THIS MONEY AS SOON AS THE TRANSACTIONIS CONCLUDED. I WILL, HOWEVER, BASED ON THE GROUNDS THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO WORK WITH US AND ALSO ALL CONTENTIOUS ISSUES DISCUSSED BEFORE THE COMMENCEMENT OF THIS TRANSACTION. YOU MAY ALSO DISCUSS YOUR PERCENTAGE BEFORE WE START TO WORK. AS SOON AS I HEAR FROM YOU, I WILL GIVE YOU ALL NECESSARY DETAILS AS TO HOW WE INTEND TO CARRY OUT THE WHOLE TRANSACTION. PLEASE, DO NOT ENTERTAIN ANY FEARS,AS ALL NECESSARY MODALITIES ARE IN PLACE, AND I ASSURE YOU OF ALL SUCCESS AND SAFETY IN THIS TRANSACTION. PLEASE, THIS TRANSACTION REQUIRES ABSOLUTE CONFIDENTIALITY AND YOU WOULD BE EXPECTED TO TREAT IT AS SUCH UNTIL THE FUNDS ARE MOVED OUT OF THIS COUNTRY. PLEASE, YOU WILL ALSO IGNORE THIS LETTER AND RESPECT OUR TRUST IN YOU BY NOT EXPOSING THIS TRANSACTION, EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED. I LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH YOU. THANK YOU. TRULY YOURS, FRANK OKONJO ESQ ____________________________________________________________ Charle con sus amigos online usando CHAT 123 http://www.123.com/sp/chat/section.php?id_section=329 From s1a22003 at yahoo.com.br Sat Sep 6 17:37:25 2003 From: s1a22003 at yahoo.com.br (s1a22003) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: AUMENTE SEU PENIS EM ATE 7cm Message-ID: <200309062052.h86KqFN20093@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030906/7a5ec7c6/attachment.htm From 239200 at email.com Mon Sep 8 03:01:03 2003 From: 239200 at email.com (239200@email.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Fast Distribution Worldwide 239200 Message-ID: <200309080000.h8800gr03908@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030908/e0e81819/attachment.htm From hhpzfkawx at msn.com Mon Sep 8 02:02:32 2003 From: hhpzfkawx at msn.com (Jane Townsend) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Save Money on Conference Calls pjebvrznan Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030908/b22d0831/attachment.htm From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Mon Sep 8 02:55:42 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash Message-ID: <200309080755.h887thSW022887@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> 1) Would be interested in general comments (i.e. from everyone) on the "Perl career progression" at: http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html 2) Monash has a need of some perl hacking skills, particularly with DB experience and hopefully with HTML::Mason experience. Brief synopsis: Essential skills: * Perl programming (should be familiar with 'use'ing modules, etc) and know what CPAN is/how to use it. * HTML markup conforming to W3C/WAI standards. * Familiar with SQL (especially Oracle) * Awareness of/experience with usability (e.g. http://useit.com/). Desirable skills: * Experience with HTML::Mason and/or Apache. * Experience using Perl for NNTP, IMAP, WCAP, LDAP, Jabber Pay Rate: Commensurate with depth of experience If you are interested, please see: http://monash.edu/portal/ http://my.monash.edu.au/ http://monash.edu/portal/presentations/ Then please send an application, including your resume, any sample websites/URLs and a self-assessment against http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html to: flt-jobs@its.monash.edu ta, N From wayland at smartchat.net.au Mon Sep 8 07:07:55 2003 From: wayland at smartchat.net.au (Timothy S. Nelson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash In-Reply-To: <200309080755.h887thSW022887@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > 1) Would be interested in general comments (i.e. from everyone) on the > "Perl career progression" at: > http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html Looks good. The only "problem" is that it's specific to your field/job (ie. something more general would be cool). I remember seeing something similar on a Perl training mailinglist years ago, where they were asking the question "what should we be teaching to create (eg) a junior perl developer". But it wasn't in that lovely concise table format :). --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | | E-mail: wayland@smartchat.net.au | I am | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version 3.12 GCS d+ s:- a- C++>++++$ U++ P++ L++ E- W+++ N+ w>--- V- Y+>++ PGP->++ R !tv b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>++++ h! y- -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Mon Sep 8 07:15:40 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030908121540.43232.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > > > 1) Would be interested in general comments (i.e. from everyone) on the > > "Perl career progression" at: > > http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html > > Looks good. The only "problem" is that it's specific to your > field/job (ie. something more general would be cool). Agreed. Perl is a *general-purpose* programming language, not restricted to the World Wide Web -- despite what the Oxford dictionary may say. ;-) I was dismayed when http://use.perl.org reported that the Oxford Dictionary had added the following cut-down description of Perl: "Perl. noun [mass noun]. Computing. a high-level programming language used especially for applications running on the World Wide Web. ORIGIN 1980s: respelling of PEARL, arbitrarily chosen for its positive connotations". The original proposed entry was much longer and included the phrase "widely used for a variety of tasks" which was removed to save space. Reminds me of the abbreviated "mostly harmless" description of Earth in Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy. /-\ http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From david_dick at iprimus.com.au Mon Sep 8 14:40:30 2003 From: david_dick at iprimus.com.au (David Dick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F5CDB2E.3030305@iprimus.com.au> Agreed that it is to specific to www stuff. Perhaps also to SQL. An alternative might be talking to complimentary protocols/languages/rfcs, such as ftp, snmp, ldap, instant messaging stuff such as Jabber, or things like Expect. Maybe a senior developer and/or architect would be capable of the equivalent of writing mibs or ldap schemas by hand, or very familiar with 2 - 3 rfcs or something like that. :) Timothy S. Nelson wrote: >On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > > > >>1) Would be interested in general comments (i.e. from everyone) on the >>"Perl career progression" at: >> http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html >> >> > > Looks good. The only "problem" is that it's specific to your >field/job (ie. something more general would be cool). > > I remember seeing something similar on a Perl training mailinglist >years ago, where they were asking the question "what should we be teaching to >create (eg) a junior perl developer". But it wasn't in that lovely concise >table format :). > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >| Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | >| E-mail: wayland@smartchat.net.au | I am | >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- >Version 3.12 >GCS d+ s:- a- C++>++++$ U++ P++ L++ E- W+++ N+ w>--- V- Y+>++ >PGP->++ R !tv b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>++++ h! y- >-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > > > From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Sep 8 18:29:11 2003 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash In-Reply-To: <200309080755.h887thSW022887@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> (Nathan Bailey's message of "Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:55:42 +1000") References: <200309080755.h887thSW022887@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <87n0de2720.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> On Mon, 08 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > 1) Would be interested in general comments (i.e. from everyone) on the > "Perl career progression" at: > http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html Others have commented that this is very specific to your area, and that is very true. You list a number of points and titles that have varying significance in most of the industry. You have a lot more faith in the ability of people to do software architecture than my experience says is reasonable -- I wouldn't expect someone to be doing decent architecture until the "Developer" level for modules, and even then it's not a universal. Architecture and design are *hard* problems, as evidenced by the majority of modules in CPAN. You expect more management for a "developer" than any company I have worked for, but I think the fault is the title -- your expectations there seem to match more closely a "senior developer" or "team leader" position. You have a few technology specific requirements at the higher levels. It would be quite possible to do everything else at the "senior developer" level without ever having touched HTML::Mason, for example. Likewise, you assume that XML and related technologies are used everywhere, for every job, which is not true. Some places still use other technologies as they remain more appropriate. :) Regards, Daniel -- Sweet desert rose This memory of Eden haunts us all This desert flower, this rare perfume Is the sweet intoxication of the fall -- Sting, _Desert Rose_ From pjf at perltraining.com.au Mon Sep 8 19:16:22 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Melb.PM meeting, THIS Wednesday Message-ID: <20030909001622.GA27180@mukc.org.au> G'day everyone, A very exciting Melb.PM meeting is coming this Wednesday (tomorrow!), with three very exciting activities. First, a reminder of the time and place: When: 6:30pm, this Wednesday 10th September Where: myinternet Level 8 14 Blackwood Street North Melbourne At this month's meeting, Rodd Clarkson is giving a talk on YaCMaS (Yet another Content Management System): YaCMaS was designed to meet the needs of a client who was after a simple content management system that didn't involved any knowledge of HTML. Three years later and numerous significant changes, YaCMaS still aims to meet the needs of your average Joe, but hopefully with a much better user experience, richer set of features, more flexibility and the use of a couple of "hashes of hashes of hashes of hashes" that drive the developer almost batty. YaCMaS also runs the very impressive Open Source Victoria website, at http://www.osv.org.au/ . Scott Penrose is presenting a talk on "How Tied hashes solved the problems of the world - well... DBD::CSV anyway". How we were able to get around a limitation on file name conventions in DBD::CSV by using a Tied Hash. How to create a simple tied hash and apply it." Whether you're experienced with Perl's tie features, or never made a tie before, you're sure to learn something from this excellent talk. Finally, we're going to have a very special Melb.PM social evening. Many many people attend Melb.PM, and while I'm sure everyone loves to hear the talks from our speakers, we don't necessarily get to hear that much about each other. This will be your opportunity to introduce yourself to the group, let us know what you'd like to see more (or less) of at Melb.PM, get involved in the organisation, or just swap a few tales over a pint at the pub after the meeting. Don't miss out on this month's exciting Melb.PM meeting! Cheers, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From mjs at beebo.org Mon Sep 8 19:27:47 2003 From: mjs at beebo.org (Michael Stillwell) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash In-Reply-To: <200309080755.h887thSW022887@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> References: <200309080755.h887thSW022887@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <3F5D1E83.9060100@beebo.org> Nathan Bailey wrote: >1) Would be interested in general comments (i.e. from everyone) on the >"Perl career progression" at: > http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html > > Under "Junior Developer" you have "Can code simple XML parsers and XSLT renderers." What do you mean by XSLT renderer? I don't imagine you mean write xsltproc, saxon, etc. but you already cover the writing of XSLT itself in the cell above ("Can write an XSLT to render and XML document"). >Then please send an application, including your resume, any sample >websites/URLs and a self-assessment against http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html >to: > flt-jobs@its.monash.edu > > Ha, already have a Monash Perl job! --M. -- http://beebo.org From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Mon Sep 8 19:42:09 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: "08 Sep 2003 22:07:55 +1000." Message-ID: <200309090042.h890gASW025538@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Okay, so the common theme appears to be "too narrow" which is good feedback, except not specific enough to move forward/improve :-) I do think SQL stands on its own, in the sense that you are unlikely to write perl *applications* without some kind of database interaction, regardless of the webness of it. And the intention of the progression is more towards perl *programming* than perl *scripting*, the later which could equally well be done in a combination of sed, awk and grep, for example (and would usually not involve writing a new perl module). I suspect that paragraph will result in a lot of contention, but presuming agreement for the sake of clarity in the current discussion... Would adding another column or two about other relevant technologies frequently used in perl be sufficient? Two good examples from David were messaging (IMAP, NNTP, SNMP, Jabber, etc) and directories (LDAP et al). I don't think incorporating LDAP skill (i.e. schema management) is relevant since it's not a test of your perl capability so much as with a specific environment (i.e. knowing LDAP schemas is not likely to make you a better perl programmer, but knowing SQL or XML may, especially if lots of applications use them) re, N From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Mon Sep 8 20:03:37 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: "09 Sep 2003 09:29:11 +1000." <87n0de2720.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> Message-ID: <200309090103.h8913bSW025684@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Daniel Pittman wrote: >Architecture and design are *hard* problems, as evidenced by the >majority of modules in CPAN. *grin* Yes, well...! :P This does, I think, depend on how you factor out your code. We tend to factor out any major functions into modules, because then we can have test harnesses that unit/integration/regression test the code (cf. XP). This means that anyone coding is likely to make a module, just like anyone coding is likely to use subroutines. Agreed, they will do it to varying levels of effectiveness, but I think it's a fair expectation for a graduate to be able to code in subroutines and put those subroutines into a module -- possibly the use of the word 'architect' here is disingenuous, since (again in our context) we tend to have several people involved and its likely (expected?) that junior staff will be operating under the direction of senior staff (i.e. semi-mentoring relationships, but not formalised in any way). Perhaps it is all this subliminal context that makes the document less useful for others, but then that's why I find this discussion very constructive and hope to improve the document :-) >You expect more management for a "developer" than any company I have >worked for, but I think the fault is the title -- your expectations >there seem to match more closely a "senior developer" or "team leader" >position. I think it's terminology again -- depends on who the 'key stakeholders' are -- in this case, rarely likely to be the ultimate business owners, and more likely to be a mostly internal audience, it's really more a measure of autonomy -- you are able to ensure the project is successfully completed and contact the necessary people to ensure it is. The other ambiguity is in scale of projects, perhaps I should add a glossary at the end that defines these, since I expect my definitions are much smaller than most would expect (I'm guessing industry expectation of medium project being perhaps 6 months long with 3 or 4 people = 18+ person months?). >You have a few technology specific requirements at the higher levels. It >would be quite possible to do everything else at the "senior developer" >level without ever having touched HTML::Mason, for example. Yup, HTML::Mason is a specificity which I would remove if I was publishing this at a broader level (or add "competing" technologies such as embperl, HTML::Template, etc). >Likewise, you assume that XML and related technologies are used >everywhere, for every job, which is not true. Some places still use >other technologies as they remain more appropriate. :) Damian once said "Never use XML if you own both ends of the pipe." I think XML will continue to be relevant because of web services (which will be relevant even if you're not "web" programming, e.g. EDI kind of stuff), but for anything else, I would rather encourage Data::Serialization of hashes or similar approach. Perhaps the limitation of a document such as this is that it necessarily depends on one's view of what "good" perl programming is, and where perl *programming* mostly happens (which in our case, is biased toward the web). re, N From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Mon Sep 8 20:05:13 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash In-Reply-To: "09 Sep 2003 10:27:47 +1000." <3F5D1E83.9060100@beebo.org> Message-ID: <200309090105.h8915ESW025703@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Michael Stillwell wrote: >renderers." What do you mean by XSLT renderer? I don't imagine you >mean write xsltproc, saxon, etc. but you already cover the writing of I mean apply one of the above, i.e. you've got your XML and your XSLT, how do you transform it into format X? You need to write some code to drive the XSLT over the XML (perhaps XSLT rendering code rather than renderer?) >Ha, already have a Monash Perl job! Indeed :-) N From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 8 20:19:05 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <200309090042.h890gASW025538@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <9ADBF1E6-E263-11D7-B8AD-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, Sep 9, 2003, at 10:42 Australia/Melbourne, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Okay, so the common theme appears to be "too narrow" which is good > feedback, > except not specific enough to move forward/improve :-) > > I do think SQL stands on its own, in the sense that you are unlikely to > write perl *applications* without some kind of database interaction, > regardless of the webness of it. And the intention of the progression > is more towards perl *programming* than perl *scripting*, the later > which could equally well be done in a combination of sed, awk and grep, > for example (and would usually not involve writing a new perl module). It is funny you say that, because I am finding myself moving further away from SQL. I am really only using SQL now if I have a relational database - not if I have non relational data. I am finding more and more I am leaning towards hierarchical and object databases - although non formal, mostly involved with storing XML in a directory structure etc. > I suspect that paragraph will result in a lot of contention, but > presuming agreement for the sake of clarity in the current > discussion... Would adding another column or two about other relevant > technologies frequently used in perl be sufficient? Two good examples > from David were messaging (IMAP, NNTP, SNMP, Jabber, etc) and > directories (LDAP et al). I don't think incorporating LDAP skill > (i.e. schema management) is relevant since it's not a test of your > perl capability so much as with a specific environment (i.e. knowing > LDAP schemas is not likely to make you a better perl programmer, but > knowing SQL or XML may, especially if lots of applications use them) I would be leaning towards the concept of using the abstractions for data storage, but I am uncertain what is the best way to write that up. DBI for accessing an SQL or simple database is ideal. Mail::Box maybe a good example of something you should know if dealing with mail. XML::Parser (using configurable backends) for dealing with XML Parsing. It is hard to write, but what I look for is the idea that someone uses not only abstractions, but the correct ones and extends them where necessary. What I find a bad perl programmer, is one who writes their own way of doing it - and therefore maintaining it. Perhaps we need to rank standard sort of perl modules and then say pick the top 10 for what people should be familiar with. Not in this order... * DBI * Mail::Box * XML::Parser * IO::* (specifically File, Dir - maybe Select and Copy) * Config::General * Cache::Cache * Data::Dumper * Net::* (specifically FTP, SMTP, POP3 - how to write your own is good) - this is a key one that even good perl programmers miss. - There are plenty of Net:: libs on CPAN which do not inherit from Net::Cmd (I know, I wrote some before I discovered someone had done all the hard work for me already) * CGI * Image::Magick (maybe others like Image::Size) * Getopt::* (I prefer Declare, but Std is fine) * Date::Parse * strict, warnings, base, vars, overload, (Carp) and other pragma * NEXT (I love NEXT) * Test::* * Time::HiRes Maybe as part of our new portal site, and to help Simon in creation of good tutorials we could setup a 'best in bread' selection of perl modules and have us all vote on them - maybe that already exists elsewhere? Scott - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/XSqNDCFCcmAm26YRAmKoAKCsbS1FdElZkuhoV8GPo0ePfcaL3wCfchl9 knp3FjGl9EZr/Ck9z7KIfCA= =EVOM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Sep 8 20:24:13 2003 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090103.h8913bSW025684@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> (Nathan Bailey's message of "Tue, 09 Sep 2003 11:03:37 +1000") References: <200309090103.h8913bSW025684@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <87ekyq21qa.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> On Tue, 09 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Daniel Pittman wrote: >>Architecture and design are *hard* problems, as evidenced by the >>majority of modules in CPAN. [...] > This does, I think, depend on how you factor out your code. We tend to > factor out any major functions into modules, because then we can have > test harnesses that unit/integration/regression test the code (cf. > XP). This means that anyone coding is likely to make a module, just > like anyone coding is likely to use subroutines. ...and do you trust the low level programmers to decide what is and isn't in that module, and what the public interface is, or do you tell them that? > Agreed, they will do it to varying levels of effectiveness, but I > think it's a fair expectation for a graduate to be able to code in > subroutines and put those subroutines into a module -- possibly the > use of the word 'architect' here is disingenuous, since (again in our > context) we tend to have several people involved and its likely > (expected?) that junior staff will be operating under the direction of > senior staff (i.e. semi-mentoring relationships, but not formalised in > any way). That answers the question: you expect them to be able to write a Perl module to the specification of a senior person. [...] >>You expect more management for a "developer" than any company I have >>worked for, but I think the fault is the title -- your expectations >>there seem to match more closely a "senior developer" or "team leader" >>position. > > I think it's terminology again *nod* That was my feeling for a lot of this, I guess, and if you want it to be useful in a broader scope, you are going to need to fix that. [...] >>You have a few technology specific requirements at the higher levels. >>It would be quite possible to do everything else at the "senior >>developer" level without ever having touched HTML::Mason, for example. > > Yup, HTML::Mason is a specificity which I would remove if I was > publishing this at a broader level (or add "competing" technologies > such as embperl, HTML::Template, etc). "Template Engines" or "Content Management Systems" are probably what you mean here, I think. >>Likewise, you assume that XML and related technologies are used >>everywhere, for every job, which is not true. Some places still use >>other technologies as they remain more appropriate. :) > > Damian once said "Never use XML if you own both ends of the pipe." Damien Moore? Anyway, that's not a great argument, I think. If you need a strongly structured, weakly typed format at both ends, XML is your best choice.[1] Something like ASN.1, DCE-RPC or CORBA (despite the respective pains) is great for strongly structured, strongly typed remote data. Most things do better with a simple loosely structured, loosely typed ASCII based, line oriented protocol like SMTP, in my experience. > I think XML will continue to be relevant because of web services > (which will be relevant even if you're not "web" programming, e.g. EDI > kind of stuff), but for anything else, I would rather encourage > Data::Serialization of hashes or similar approach. I don't, because it ties you to a single vendor for your solution. That is very seldom a good thing, because your quick hack IPC method becomes something that I have to replace with a Java based[2] fizz-bang solution and that has to unpack your IPC, five years from now. :) > Perhaps the limitation of a document such as this is that it > necessarily depends on one's view of what "good" perl programming is, > and where perl *programming* mostly happens (which in our case, is > biased toward the web). Yes, very much so. The document isn't very general. It wouldn't cut it here at QHRS, for example, because we don't use most of your technologies or not in the same way you do. Daniel Footnotes: [1] Well, SGML is, but that is both out of fashion and poorly reinvented by the XML movement. Oh, well. [2] Insert the fashionable technology of the day. -- Hocine Bibo Aut In Eum Digitos Insero? From rickm at printaform.com.au Mon Sep 8 20:25:09 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl Problem Message-ID: As everyone seems to be hanging around this morning, let me post a programming question: Given that $locations is a ref returned from DBI's $dbh->selectall_arrayref(): foreach my $location (@{$locations}) { next unless @{$location}; print join("\t", @{$location}) . "\n"; } Why does my app hang and then exactly 5 minutes later fill my apache error_log with 120 lines of: [Tue Sep 09 11:13:05 2003] [error] [client 10.0.0.181] Use of uninitialized value in join or string at ./modules/Location.pm line 342. The select when pasted into psql returns 33 rows, so I'm not sure what's going on here... Any help muchly appreciated. Cheers! Rick Measham From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Sep 8 20:28:00 2003 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090042.h890gASW025538@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> (Nathan Bailey's message of "Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:42:09 +1000") References: <200309090042.h890gASW025538@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <877k4i21jz.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> On Tue, 09 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: [...] > I do think SQL stands on its own, in the sense that you are unlikely > to write perl *applications* without some kind of database > interaction, regardless of the webness of it. At a previous job, we wrote around 10,000 lines of Perl code that did not have anything at all to do with SQL. Come to think of it, up to the time I left, *none* of our Perl code had ever touched an SQL database... ...no, wait. A tiny script in the install routine did, because the SQL monitor for SQL server couldn't do what we needed. :) [...] > I suspect that paragraph will result in a lot of contention, but > presuming agreement for the sake of clarity in the current > discussion... Would adding another column or two about other relevant > technologies frequently used in perl be sufficient? I think that making the technologies and the skills independent is what you need to do. Knowing SQL well is not a sign of a good Perl programmer, and knowing Perl well does not make you a DBA or SQL performance expert. Daniel -- Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 8 21:01:10 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7BF5F1A6-E269-11D7-B8AD-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, Sep 9, 2003, at 11:25 Australia/Melbourne, Rick Measham wrote: > As everyone seems to be hanging around this morning, let me post a > programming question: > > Given that $locations is a ref returned from DBI's > $dbh->selectall_arrayref(): > > foreach my $location (@{$locations}) { > next unless @{$location}; > print join("\t", @{$location}) . "\n"; > } > > Why does my app hang and then exactly 5 minutes later fill my apache > error_log with 120 lines of: > > [Tue Sep 09 11:13:05 2003] [error] [client 10.0.0.181] Use of > uninitialized value in join or string at ./modules/Location.pm line > 342. No idea why it is hanging, very odd... You could try adding in "print STDERR" lines in your code which will go into the logs time stamped so you can see WHERE it is blocking. Or you can use Devel::PTKDB to debug it visually. As for the unitialized value, only ONE of the entries returned in your array and you will get that each time. So for example you have 120 lines, which suggests maybe 4 of the returned entries are NULL which equate to undef in perl after coming through DBI. > The select when pasted into psql returns 33 rows, so I'm not sure > what's going on here... > > Any help muchly appreciated. > > Cheers! > Rick Measham Scott - -- Scott Penrose Welcome to the Digital Dimension http://www.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: Contents of this mail and signature are bound to change randomly. Whilst every attempt has been made to control said randomness, the author wishes to remain blameless for the number of eggs that damn chicken laid. Oh and I don't want to hear about butterflies either. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/XTRqDCFCcmAm26YRAnxuAJ0YAulSYDRekfaCf3jY6LdgxVTm/QCfZ0PC dYyQoL0fQPE6nzimlwLQTlE= =5eOd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From melbourne.pm at bowman.bs Mon Sep 8 21:07:22 2003 From: melbourne.pm at bowman.bs (Brad Bowman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <9ADBF1E6-E263-11D7-B8AD-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> References: <9ADBF1E6-E263-11D7-B8AD-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <1063073242.614.42.camel@oxum> > It is funny you say that, because I am finding myself moving further > away from SQL. Amen! > I am really only using SQL now if I have a relational database - not if > I have non relational data. Halleluiah!! > I am finding more and more I am leaning towards hierarchical and object > databases - although non formal, mostly involved with storing XML in a > directory structure etc. Praise be to .. No, hang on, stop the music. I ain't doing no XML. YAML, Storable or straight perl. But then I'm not currently sharing my toys with Java/web-services. > Maybe as part of our new portal site, and to help Simon in creation of > good tutorials we could setup a 'best in bread' selection of perl > modules and have us all vote on them - maybe that already exists > elsewhere? P5EE http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/ Brad -- Bravery and cowardice are not things which can be conjectured in times of peace. They are in different categories. -- Hagakure From bsb at bund.com.au Mon Sep 8 21:11:39 2003 From: bsb at bund.com.au (Brad Bowman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1063073499.614.47.camel@oxum> > Why does my app hang and then exactly 5 minutes later fill my apache > error_log with 120 lines of: > > [Tue Sep 09 11:13:05 2003] [error] [client 10.0.0.181] Use of > uninitialized value in join or string at ./modules/Location.pm line > 342. Are the next two lines: sleep(5*60); warn "Use of uninitialized ..." for (1..120); by any chance? -- Furthermore, when experiencing a rush of blood to the head, if one puts spittle on the upper part of one's ear, it will soon go away. -- Hagakure http://bowman.bs/hagakure/ From rickm at printaform.com.au Mon Sep 8 21:19:19 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl Problem In-Reply-To: <1063073499.614.47.camel@oxum> References: <1063073499.614.47.camel@oxum> Message-ID: At 12:11 PM +1000 9/9/03, Brad Bowman wrote: > > Why does my app hang and then exactly 5 minutes later fill my apache >> error_log with 120 lines of: >> >> [Tue Sep 09 11:13:05 2003] [error] [client 10.0.0.181] Use of >> uninitialized value in join or string at ./modules/Location.pm line >> 342. > >Are the next two lines: > sleep(5*60); > warn "Use of uninitialized ..." for (1..120); >by any chance? ROFL! Nah, seems to be a problem with warn and my perl. I've noticed before that I hang if I warn too much. I've done the naughty thing and set $^W to 0 for the foreach block. Figured there shouldn't be any harm done there :) Cheers and thanks all! Rick Measham From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 8 21:22:51 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <1063073242.614.42.camel@oxum> Message-ID: <832ED293-E26C-11D7-B8AD-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, Sep 9, 2003, at 12:07 Australia/Melbourne, Brad Bowman wrote: > >> It is funny you say that, because I am finding myself moving further >> away from SQL. > > Amen! > >> I am really only using SQL now if I have a relational database - not >> if >> I have non relational data. > > Halleluiah!! > >> I am finding more and more I am leaning towards hierarchical and >> object >> databases - although non formal, mostly involved with storing XML in a >> directory structure etc. > > Praise be to .. No, hang on, stop the music. > I ain't doing no XML. YAML, Storable or straight perl. Actually all our storage goes through our single MI::Data library and DOES store it using Storable. But I recently (customer requirements) had to use XML, and it was trivial to change the single point :-) > But then I'm not currently sharing my toys with Java/web-services. Thus the reason I had to change - very cool the way you can just pnp (for real). >> Maybe as part of our new portal site, and to help Simon in creation of >> good tutorials we could setup a 'best in bread' selection of perl >> modules and have us all vote on them - maybe that already exists >> elsewhere? > > P5EE http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/ or even p5ee.perl.org p5ee is a good project, but like all books etc - it is not really community controlled. Hmmm... that probably came out wrong. What I would like is a voting system like that of advogato ! Scott - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/XTl+DCFCcmAm26YRApGOAKCCJX17sZ/x2Ug/ZCuIz7hvCU0CDACgr5FD 02n8GWLaIkYGk++jAkYnG/4= =j4dQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jarich at perltraining.com.au Mon Sep 8 21:46:46 2003 From: jarich at perltraining.com.au (Jacinta Richardson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <200309090042.h890gASW025538@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Okay, so the common theme appears to be "too narrow" which is good feedback, > except not specific enough to move forward/improve :-) > > I do think SQL stands on its own, in the sense that you are unlikely to > write perl *applications* without some kind of database interaction, > regardless of the webness of it. G'day Nathan, While I agree with your paragraph up there I want to add in a rider of my own here. SQL does stand on it's own, and junior developers should have some experience with it and senior developers should be able to do great things with it. But your table mentions PL/SQL which is not the same at all. I know lots of SQL and regularly do all sorts of things with it. I also create and maintain databases and design the schema. I'm a PL/SQL newbie however. PL/SQL is very domain specific and in my several years of consulting I've never met a client who wanted me to interface with their Oracle database server. So I haven't learned how to. So this is a specific case of why I think your table is too narrowly focussed. As an improvement, how about you change all occurances of PL/SQL to SQL and then add in "passing familiarity" to "well experienced" with PL/SQL as desirable additions? All the best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +613 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Mon Sep 8 21:28:23 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: "09 Sep 2003 11:28:00 +1000." <"877k4i21jz.fsf"@enki.rimspace.net> Message-ID: <200309090228.h892SOSW025826@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Daniel Pittman wrote: >At a previous job, we wrote around 10,000 lines of Perl code that did >not have anything at all to do with SQL. Come to think of it, up to the >time I left, *none* of our Perl code had ever touched an SQL database... Intruiging -- presumably it had some form of datastore, though -- what? (It would be interesting to me to hear what substantial applications have been written in perl in the Australian context -- can be vague, but who has written something of more than 5,000 lines and what did it do, at a very broad level? e.g. billing system, etc.) >I think that making the technologies and the skills independent is what >you need to do. Knowing SQL well is not a sign of a good Perl >programmer, and knowing Perl well does not make you a DBA or SQL >performance expert. *nod* true. That whole column is perhaps too specific, maybe a dotted line with "aligned technologies" that talks about things like SQL, LDAP, etc. and hierarchies in them (but less relevant than core perl skills). re, N From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Mon Sep 8 21:24:46 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: "09 Sep 2003 11:24:13 +1000." <"87ekyq21qa.fsf"@enki.rimspace.net> Message-ID: <200309090224.h892OkSW026333@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Daniel Pittman wrote: >"Template Engines" or "Content Management Systems" are probably what you >mean here, I think. Probably more the former, although what I'd really like is a portal toolkit of the standard of Zope or Zend, but perl doesn't have one as yet, does it Scott? ;-) >> Damian once said "Never use XML if you own both ends of the pipe." >Damien Moore? Anyway, that's not a great argument, I think. Conway -- he was speaking in the context of perl owning both ends of the pipe, i.e. there is little value in going from perl, to XML, to the socket, to XML and back to perl. XML conversion is expensive and adds little value to this transaction. You add an interesting dimension (reusability in different languages) which is a very pertinent point for larger architectures (i.e. where things might be SOAP'd out, for example) but I think not as relevant where everything is happening in perl in the back end (despite my boss' reading of Gartner reports, I do not believe perl is going to become a legacy language any time soon :-) >Most things do better with a simple loosely structured, loosely typed >ASCII based, line oriented protocol like SMTP, in my experience. *IF* you are looking for interoperability across languages. But that isn't the most efficient mechanism if both ends are (and are likely to stay) perl. >something that I have to replace with a Java based[2] fizz-bang solution >and that has to unpack your IPC, five years from now. :) If perl was vended by a vendor then life-time of the language would be a concern, but why would Java kill perl? I think they fill different niches (Java is good for enterprise code -- I wouldn't write an ERP in perl, but perl is great for integration, especially with Internet services ala Net::*). >Yes, very much so. The document isn't very general. It wouldn't cut it >here at QHRS, for example, because we don't use most of your >technologies or not in the same way you do. *nod* When there is more than one way to do it(tm), standards are not quite so straightforward :-) Nonetheless, any suggestions towards generalisation that make it more broadly useful are very welcome. ta, N From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 8 22:21:07 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > ROFL! Nah, seems to be a problem with warn and my perl. I've noticed > before that I hang if I warn too much. I've done the naughty thing > and set $^W to 0 for the foreach block. Figured there shouldn't be any > harm done there :) FYI for neatness, if you are using Perl 5.6 + you can say 'no warnings;' rather than futz with $^W - easier to read and forward compatible. Scooter - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/XUcnDCFCcmAm26YRAghJAJ9A2+4Q3O1nHs3LxFA5G8DvhvmXEwCeKmNi EOr4kjZue25dpQcvJWB3e3o= =H5WW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 8 22:23:48 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090224.h892OkSW026333@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <0698D78F-E275-11D7-B8AD-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, Sep 9, 2003, at 12:24 Australia/Melbourne, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Daniel Pittman wrote: >> "Template Engines" or "Content Management Systems" are probably what >> you >> mean here, I think. > > Probably more the former, although what I'd really like is a portal > toolkit of the standard of Zope or Zend, but perl doesn't have one as > yet, does it Scott? ;-) DAMN I WISH I COULD SOLVE THAT !!! Scott - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/XUfLDCFCcmAm26YRAjXdAJ9ZygJYm70rrm9ka7JCmHzicy5zOACfdCsQ oeHEj2NI/FDdszqsXvqgbwM= =hXaj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Sep 8 22:35:44 2003 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090228.h892SOSW025826@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> (Nathan Bailey's message of "Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:28:23 +1000") References: <200309090228.h892SOSW025826@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <87ptiazl9r.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> On Tue, 09 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Daniel Pittman wrote: >>At a previous job, we wrote around 10,000 lines of Perl code that did >>not have anything at all to do with SQL. Come to think of it, up to >>the time I left, *none* of our Perl code had ever touched an SQL >>database... > > Intruiging -- presumably it had some form of datastore, though -- > what? [...] Machine Inventory, and it simply gathered information and spat it back in an XML format to the central server, which was not in Perl. The fact that it took 10,000 lines of code to do is a testament to the wonderfully standard nature of Windows, mostly. :) Daniel -- Most people's C programs should be indented six feet downward and covered with dirt. -- Blair P. Houghton From rickm at printaform.com.au Mon Sep 8 22:43:49 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>ROFL! Nah, seems to be a problem with warn and my perl. I've >>noticed before that I hang if I warn too much. I've done the >>naughty thing and set $^W to 0 for the foreach block. Figured there >>shouldn't be any harm done there :) At 1:21 PM +1000 9/9/03, Scott Penrose wrote: >FYI for neatness, if you are using Perl 5.6 + you can say > 'no warnings;' > >rather than futz with $^W - easier to read and forward compatible. Wouldn't that turn off warnings for everywhere though? I just want them off for the local block. Cheers! Rick From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Sep 8 22:49:06 2003 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090224.h892OkSW026333@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> (Nathan Bailey's message of "Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:24:46 +1000") References: <200309090224.h892OkSW026333@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <87llsyzknh.fsf@enki.rimspace.net> On Tue, 09 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Daniel Pittman wrote: [...] > he was speaking in the context of perl owning both ends of the pipe, > i.e. there is little value in going from perl, to XML, to the socket, > to XML and back to perl. XML conversion is expensive and adds little > value to this transaction. XML is used far too often, by people who think it solves a number of problems, and often is wasteful. The classic example, of course, was someone enthusing to me about XML and how it made their floating point number matrix completely portable... ...which, of course, it didn't, because they read back an ASCII version of their numbers into a different machine representation, with different precision and... > You add an interesting dimension (reusability in different languages) > which is a very pertinent point for larger architectures (i.e. where > things might be SOAP'd out, for example) but I think not as relevant > where everything is happening in perl in the back end (despite my > boss' reading of Gartner reports, I do not believe perl is going to > become a legacy language any time soon :-) I don't mean to suggest that Perl is in any way endangered by anything[1], or that it will be replaced as a language. What I am trying to point out is that if the application "all in Perl" today is big enough to need IPC, it's big enough that designing for the future is a good plan. >>Most things do better with a simple loosely structured, loosely typed >>ASCII based, line oriented protocol like SMTP, in my experience. > > *IF* you are looking for interoperability across languages. But that > isn't the most efficient mechanism if both ends are (and are likely to > stay) perl. This falls under the heading of designed for the future. It's not hard to extend an SMTP-style protocol with support for UTF-8 data, in a backward-compatible fashion. >>something that I have to replace with a Java based[2] fizz-bang >>solution and that has to unpack your IPC, five years from now. :) > > If perl was vended by a vendor then life-time of the language would be > a concern, but why would Java kill perl? Sorry, that wasn't my meaning. For 'Java', substitute 'Perl6', and then think about your on-the-wire compatibility. Did using the easy serialization format when it was all Perl5 mean that you had to rebuild *all* your application to Perl6 when it was released, or could you replace one part independently. Anyway, my meaning was that using a defined protocol rather than a language specific serialization format or whatever may be a bit less efficient[2], but it makes your code a lot more portable and future-proof. > I think they fill different niches (Java is good for enterprise code > -- I wouldn't write an ERP in perl, but perl is great for integration, > especially with Internet services ala Net::*). There was this time when I had to do the work of replacing a Perl daemon with a C daemon, where it had been Perl to Perl IPC before. Rewriting the C daemon in Perl was not an option, and we ended up writing a parser for the very limited set of wire formats that the Perl stuff sent. At the time, this marginally beat out writing a real protocol for the C side, then interfacing them with another Perl daemon that just translated one format to another. So, I guess that my advice boils down to: If your project is big enough to need IPC, it's big enough to need language portability for each component. Daniel Footnotes: [1] Wel From simon at unisolve.com.au Mon Sep 8 23:38:16 2003 From: simon at unisolve.com.au (Simon Taylor) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090224.h892OkSW026333@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> References: <200309090224.h892OkSW026333@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <200309091438.16701.simon@unisolve.com.au> > If perl was vended by a vendor then life-time of the language would be > a concern, but why would Java kill perl? I think they fill different > niches (Java is good for enterprise code -- I wouldn't write an ERP in > perl, but perl is great for integration, especially with Internet > services ala Net::*). My 10c worth, as a person who works with ERP packages a lot, is that I wouldn't write an ERP package in anything *other* that perl. Take your typical HelloWorld.java and helloworld.pl and scale both up to 60000 times the size and see what happens..... ;-) In my opinion, perl scales better than people believe. It all in the perl meme folks, if you say perl isn't suited to the ERP environment then it becomes 'true', (for various values of 'true'). - Simon Taylor > > >Yes, very much so. The document isn't very general. It wouldn't cut it > >here at QHRS, for example, because we don't use most of your > >technologies or not in the same way you do. > > *nod* When there is more than one way to do it(tm), standards are not > quite so straightforward :-) Nonetheless, any suggestions towards > generalisation that make it more broadly useful are very welcome. > > ta, > N -- Unisolve Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia +61 3 9568 2005 From paul.bongiorno at hp.com Tue Sep 9 00:10:37 2003 From: paul.bongiorno at hp.com (BONGIORNO,PAUL (HP-Australia,ex2)) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression - The Sleeping Mailing list has awok en, Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Simon Taylor [mailto:simon@unisolve.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, 9 September 2003 2:38 PM To: Nathan Bailey; Daniel Pittman Cc: Subject: Re: Perl career progression > If perl was vended by a vendor then life-time of the language would be > a concern, but why would Java kill perl? I think they fill different > niches (Java is good for enterprise code -- I wouldn't write an ERP in > perl, but perl is great for integration, especially with Internet > services ala Net::*). My 10c worth, as a person who works with ERP packages a lot, is that I wouldn't write an ERP package in anything *other* that perl. Take your typical HelloWorld.java and helloworld.pl and scale both up to 60000 times the size and see what happens..... ;-) In my opinion, perl scales better than people believe. It all in the perl meme folks, if you say perl isn't suited to the ERP environment then it becomes 'true', (for various values of 'true'). - Simon Taylor Fair Comment, This is a perl list afterall I think you will win a vote simon > > >Yes, very much so. The document isn't very general. It wouldn't cut > >it here at QHRS, for example, because we don't use most of your > >technologies or not in the same way you do. > > *nod* When there is more than one way to do it(tm), standards are not > quite so straightforward :-) Nonetheless, any suggestions towards > generalisation that make it more broadly useful are very welcome. > > ta, > N -- Unisolve Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia +61 3 9568 2005 From scottp at dd.com.au Tue Sep 9 00:23:41 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, Sep 9, 2003, at 13:43 Australia/Melbourne, Rick Measham wrote: >>> ROFL! Nah, seems to be a problem with warn and my perl. I've noticed >>> before that I hang if I warn too much. I've done the naughty thing >>> and set $^W to 0 for the foreach block. Figured there shouldn't be >>> any harm done there :) > > At 1:21 PM +1000 9/9/03, Scott Penrose wrote: >> FYI for neatness, if you are using Perl 5.6 + you can say >> 'no warnings;' >> >> rather than futz with $^W - easier to read and forward compatible. > > Wouldn't that turn off warnings for everywhere though? I just want > them off for the local block. no works fine for local block { no warnings; do something bad; } Scott - -- Scott Penrose Welcome to the Digital Dimension http://www.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: Contents of this mail and signature are bound to change randomly. Whilst every attempt has been made to control said randomness, the author wishes to remain blameless for the number of eggs that damn chicken laid. Oh and I don't want to hear about butterflies either. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/XWPgDCFCcmAm26YRAh0vAJ4gUIak3U3XP2CrKfb53kph12WmYwCgkdan 40+T0ji+rGiLzWcM71u0cC0= =Cq/X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Mon Sep 8 20:59:56 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: "09 Sep 2003 11:19:05 +1000." <"9ADBF1E6-E263-11D7-B8AD-003065B58CF8"@dd.com.au> Message-ID: <200309090159.h891xwSW026228@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Scott Penrose wrote: >I am finding more and more I am leaning towards hierarchical and object >databases - although non formal, mostly involved with storing XML in a >directory structure etc. Is this a Zope kind of mindset then? An extension of the Data::Serialization mindset that goes across sessions/the application so that you just have persistent objects which manage their data autonomously forever, taking care of persistance internally? >XML::Parser (using configurable backends) for dealing with XML Parsing. Will cover XML in response to Daniel. >It is hard to write, but what I look for is the idea that someone uses >not only abstractions, but the correct ones and extends them where >necessary. What I find a bad perl programmer, is one who writes their >own way of doing it - and therefore maintaining it. *nod* definitely. Reuse and refactoring instead of rewriting. >Perhaps we need to rank standard sort of perl modules and then say pick >the top 10 for what people should be familiar with. That could be *really* useful. In fact, I'd like to see your comments under each of these, cf. Net::* -- this is the kind of content that I think would be _really_ interesting on the website/portal (i.e. what's hot and why). >Maybe as part of our new portal site, and to help Simon in creation of >good tutorials we could setup a 'best in bread' selection of perl >modules and have us all vote on them - maybe that already exists >elsewhere? Not AFAIK -- perhaps perl monks does, it's got lots of stuff I haven't dug through... N From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Tue Sep 9 00:46:47 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090228.h892SOSW025826@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030909054647.13704.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Nathan Bailey wrote: > Daniel Pittman wrote: > >At a previous job, we wrote around 10,000 lines of Perl code that did > >not have anything at all to do with SQL. Come to think of it, up to the > >time I left, *none* of our Perl code had ever touched an SQL database... > > Intruiging -- presumably it had some form of datastore, though -- what? Leon "I laugh in the face and twang the bra-strap of anyone still using Relational Databases" Brocard uses a trans-dimensional organic memory jelly made of purest orange. http://london.pm.org/pipermail/london.pm/Week-of-Mon-20030818/021001.html /-\ http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From rickm at printaform.com.au Tue Sep 9 01:27:34 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <200309090159.h891xwSW026228@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> References: <200309090159.h891xwSW026228@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: >Scott Penrose wrote: >Maybe as part of our new portal site, and to help Simon in creation of >good tutorials we could setup a 'best in bread' selection of perl >modules and have us all vote on them - maybe that already exists >elsewhere? At 11:59 AM +1000 9/9/03, Nathan Bailey wrote: >Not AFAIK -- perhaps perl monks does, it's got lots of stuff I haven't >dug through... Nah, I'm on the Site Documentation Clan at PerlMonks and there's nothing of the sort. There's reviews of a *few* modules (http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node=Module%20Reviews) but it doesn't mean they're the 'best in breed'. Would be handy addition though. Although you'll cause an uproar over what should be put in there. Cheers! Rick (few is a relative concept and is used here to compare those reviewed to those available on CPAN) From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Tue Sep 9 01:50:54 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <200309090042.h890gASW025538@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030909065054.97455.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Nathan Bailey wrote: > Okay, so the common theme appears to be "too narrow" which is good > feedback, except not specific enough to move forward/improve :-) This might be of some use: http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/yapc/2000-stages/ which incorporates Tom Christiansen's "Seven Levels of Perl Mastery": http://larc.ee.nthu.edu.tw/~cfwu/perl/japh.txt Also Japhy's "Seven Stages of Regex Users": http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=42330 /-\ http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From wayland at smartchat.net.au Mon Sep 8 08:26:46 2003 From: wayland at smartchat.net.au (Timothy S. Nelson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl work at Monash In-Reply-To: <20030908121540.43232.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Andrew Savige wrote: > Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > > > > > 1) Would be interested in general comments (i.e. from everyone) on the > > > "Perl career progression" at: > > > http://polynate.net/work/perl_career.html > > > > Looks good. The only "problem" is that it's specific to your > > field/job (ie. something more general would be cool). > > Agreed. Perl is a *general-purpose* programming language, not restricted > to the World Wide Web -- despite what the Oxford dictionary may say. ;-) But his is not only restricted to the WWW, but to portals :). But the general plan is a good idea, and it would be easily adaptable to other situations. > I was dismayed when http://use.perl.org reported that the Oxford > Dictionary had added the following cut-down description of Perl: > "Perl. noun [mass noun]. Computing. a high-level programming language used > especially for applications running on the World Wide Web. ORIGIN 1980s: I'd call it "accurate, but misleading". > respelling of PEARL, arbitrarily chosen for its positive connotations". Does anyone know if this is correct? I'd always assumed that the Practical Extraction and Reporting name was designed at the same time. > The original proposed entry was much longer and included the phrase > "widely used for a variety of tasks" which was removed to save space. > Reminds me of the abbreviated "mostly harmless" description of Earth > in Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy. I think the OED entry would be more accurate as "Primarily Text-processing". :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | | E-mail: wayland@smartchat.net.au | I am | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version 3.12 GCS d+ s:- a- C++>++++$ U++ P++ L++ E- W+++ N+ w>--- V- Y+>++ PGP->++ R !tv b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>++++ h! y- -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From pjf at perltraining.com.au Tue Sep 9 02:09:58 2003 From: pjf at perltraining.com.au (Paul Fenwick) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl history In-Reply-To: References: <20030908121540.43232.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030909070958.GC5345@mukc.org.au> G'day Tim/Melb.PM, On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 11:26:46PM +1000, Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > > respelling of PEARL, arbitrarily chosen for its positive connotations". > > Does anyone know if this is correct? I'd always assumed that the > Practical Extraction and Reporting name was designed at the same time. The name then became "Pearl", which mutated into our present-day "Perl", partly because Larry saw a reference to another language called PEARL, but mostly becausehe's too lazy to type five letters all the time. And, of course, so that Perl could be used as a four-letter word. (You'll note, however, the vestiges of the former spelling in the acronym's gloss: "Practical Extraction /And/ Report Language".) -- Camel Book, 3rd Ed, page 646. My understanding of the "positive connotations" is that all good Unix commands are four-letters long. ;) Cheers, Paul -- Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Tue Sep 9 02:28:24 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030909072824.14098.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Rick Measham wrote: > >Scott Penrose wrote: > >Maybe as part of our new portal site, and to help Simon in creation of > >good tutorials we could setup a 'best in bread' selection of perl > >modules and have us all vote on them - maybe that already exists > >elsewhere? > > At 11:59 AM +1000 9/9/03, Nathan Bailey wrote: > >Not AFAIK -- perhaps perl monks does, it's got lots of stuff I haven't > >dug through... > > Nah, I'm on the Site Documentation Clan at PerlMonks and there's > nothing of the sort. There's reviews of a *few* modules > (http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node=Module%20Reviews) but it > doesn't mean they're the 'best in breed'. Would be handy addition > though. Although you'll cause an uproar over what should be put in > there. This might be of interest: http://qa.perl.org/phalanx/distros.html Of course, http://search.cpan.org now has module ratings -- which may also be accessed at http://cpanratings.perl.org (if you are offended by smutty and juvenile language don't look at the ratings for DBI ;-). /-\ http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From peterm at zeta.orglau.pm.org Tue Sep 9 02:33:04 2003 From: peterm at zeta.orglau.pm.org (Peter G. Martin) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <200309090228.h892SOSW025826@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: <20039917334.590681@corelli> Nathan Bailey: On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:28:23 +1000, you wrote: > (It would be interesting to me to hear what substantial applications > have been written in perl in the Australian context -- can be vague, > but who has written something of more than 5,000 lines and what did it > do, at a very broad level? e.g. billing system, etc.) > Well i was once +nearly+ up to that level with a system for document conversion and control and storage and reconversion etc.. and automatic configuration file documentation and printing etc. But then, in the proper manner, I found module after module in CPAN that did most of that for me -- and it came down by about 75% in line counts. And should have come down more... except that it worked. But then, Perl and CPAN'll do that sort of thing to you :-) --Peter M From piers at ompa.net Tue Sep 9 02:29:02 2003 From: piers at ompa.net (Piers Harding) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl history In-Reply-To: <20030909070958.GC5345@mukc.org.au> References: <20030908121540.43232.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> <20030909070958.GC5345@mukc.org.au> Message-ID: <20030909072902.GA9105@badger.local.net> Wow! That should be forwarded to the Oxford English Dictionary people! at: http://www.oed.com/public/readers/submitform.dtl Cheers. On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 05:09:58PM +1000, Paul Fenwick wrote: > G'day Tim/Melb.PM, > > On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 11:26:46PM +1000, Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > > > > respelling of PEARL, arbitrarily chosen for its positive connotations". > > > > Does anyone know if this is correct? I'd always assumed that the > > Practical Extraction and Reporting name was designed at the same time. > > The name then became "Pearl", which mutated into our present-day > "Perl", partly because Larry saw a reference to another > language called PEARL, but mostly becausehe's too lazy > to type five letters all the time. And, of course, so that > Perl could be used as a four-letter word. (You'll note, > however, the vestiges of the former spelling in the acronym's > gloss: "Practical Extraction /And/ Report Language".) > > -- Camel Book, 3rd Ed, page 646. > > My understanding of the "positive connotations" is that all good > Unix commands are four-letters long. ;) > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > -- > Paul Fenwick | http://perltraining.com.au/ > Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 > Perl Training Australia | Fax: +61 3 9354 2681 From mikem at open.com.au Tue Sep 9 02:51:35 2003 From: mikem at open.com.au (Mike McCauley) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression In-Reply-To: <20039917334.590681@corelli> References: <20039917334.590681@corelli> Message-ID: <200309091751.35978.mikem@open.com.au> Hi all, On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 05:33 pm, Peter G. Martin wrote: > Nathan Bailey: > > On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:28:23 +1000, you wrote: > > (It would be interesting to me to hear what substantial applications > > have been written in perl in the Australian context -- can be vague, > > but who has written something of more than 5,000 lines and what did it > > do, at a very broad level? e.g. billing system, etc.) I wasnt following the context of this request, so I dont know if a response from a commercial software vendor is appropriate, but.... Radiator Radius Server is written here in Mel. Currently stands at about 30,000 lines, mostly in optional plugin modules. Its sold around the world. Cheers. > > Well i was once +nearly+ up to that level with a system for document > conversion and control and storage and reconversion etc.. and automatic > configuration file documentation and printing etc. But then, > in the proper manner, I found module after module in CPAN that did most > of that for me -- and it came down by about 75% in line counts. And should > have come down more... except that it worked. > > But then, Perl and CPAN'll do that sort of thing to you :-) > > > --Peter M -- Mike McCauley mikem@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd Unix, Perl, Motif, C++, WWW 24 Bateman St Hampton, VIC 3188 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 3 9598-0985 Fax +61 3 9598-0955 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory, EAP, TLS, TTLS, PEAP etc on Unix, Windows, MacOS etc. From wayland at smartchat.net.au Tue Sep 9 05:55:01 2003 From: wayland at smartchat.net.au (Timothy S. Nelson) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <200309090042.h890gASW025538@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Nathan Bailey wrote: > Okay, so the common theme appears to be "too narrow" which is good feedback, > except not specific enough to move forward/improve :-) > > I do think SQL stands on its own, in the sense that you are unlikely to > write perl *applications* without some kind of database interaction, > regardless of the webness of it. And the intention of the progression > is more towards perl *programming* than perl *scripting*, the later > which could equally well be done in a combination of sed, awk and grep, > for example (and would usually not involve writing a new perl module). I've only once ever done any database stuff with Perl, and I didn't use DBI because at the time, there was no module for Interbase. I'm a sort of half-scripter, part programmer thing. The main thing I've done in Perl recently is the system which generates our invoices. Here's something that *should* have a database on both ends, but unfortunately, the input data is logged in a flat text file (which other functions currently depend on), and the other end is in a M$ Access DB, and can't be moved away from M$ Access. However, I'm recoding the M$ Access DB to have a MySQL backend, and then I will finally, for the first time in my life, have a use for DBI :). I think the only simple solution to this argument about what's needed to be a good Perl programmer is to pick a few items as "core items", and have the others as a sort of "associated skills, tick the relevant columns" sort of thing (in which I would put XML and SQL). For example, none of my Perl in the last two years has been connected with the Web (or SQL). I don't know, but I would assume that the Bioinformatics people don't do the web either (but lots of DB stuff). Versatility probably ought to be "Field knowledge" or something -- only the first 2 or 3 seem to be versatility. > technologies frequently used in perl be sufficient? Two good examples > from David were messaging (IMAP, NNTP, SNMP, Jabber, etc) and > directories (LDAP et al). I don't think incorporating LDAP skill I think your SQL and XML columns could be "sample extra" columns, and you could let other people add their own as necessary. Otherwise everyone will disagree about what needs to be added :). Perl, being the glue, touches just about everything else, but not for everyone :). > expectation of medium project being perhaps 6 months long with 3 or 4 > people = 18+ person months?). ...the mythical person month :). Daniel Pittman wrote: > ....and do you trust the low level programmers to decide what is and > isn't in that module, and what the public interface is, or do you tell > them that? The smart thing to do is to let them design it on paper, and then discuss it with them. Maybe they've spotted some difficulty that makes their way best. If you discuss it with them afterwards, they might see what they've done wrong, and the kind of thinking necessary to do this kind of thing. http://www.reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/r0/ (The Programmers Stone). I don't think the Programmers Stone guy is 100% right, but he's got some interesting ideas. > > Damian once said "Never use XML if you own both ends of the pipe." > > Damien Moore? Anyway, that's not a great argument, I think. Damien Conway. What other Damien is there in a Perl context :). :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, | | E-mail: wayland@smartchat.net.au | I am | --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version 3.12 GCS d+ s:- a- C++>++++$ U++ P++ L++ E- W+++ N+ w>--- V- Y+>++ PGP->++ R !tv b++ DI++++ D+ G e++>++++ h! y- -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Tue Sep 9 07:52:55 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: <20030909072824.14098.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030909125255.76352.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> > This might be of interest: > http://qa.perl.org/phalanx/distros.html > > Of course, http://search.cpan.org now has module ratings -- which may > also be accessed at http://cpanratings.perl.org (if you are offended by > smutty and juvenile language don't look at the ratings for DBI ;-). I forgot to mention gav's CPAN modules Wiki: http://cpan.japh.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi though it seems to have lost a bit of momentum since cpanratings was released. /-\ http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From ajsavige at yahoo.com.au Wed Sep 10 01:06:04 2003 From: ajsavige at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030910060604.10739.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Timothy S. Nelson wrote: >>> Damian once said "Never use XML if you own both ends of the pipe." >> >> Damien Moore? Anyway, that's not a great argument, I think. > > Damien Conway. What other Damien is there in a Perl context :). > > :) Who's Damien Moore? http://www.googlism.com/ says: "damien moore is a 1st dan junior black belt in tae kwon do". For Damian Conway, there are 70 entries; sorry, none for Damien Conway ;-). I'm shocked! And in his home city too. Come on Melb.pm! BTW, I think it's clearer and more modern to say "The Damian". As for two Melb.pm'ers mis-spelling his name as Damien, ... Unless deliberately mis-spelling his name is an in-joke on this list, then I guess the joke's on me. Curiously, you're not alone. Here is the Changes file from Acme::Lingua::Strine::Perl written by Simon Wistow (of London, I think). (For nearly two years, its description was "Make Perl more like Damien"). 0.54 Fri Feb 07 10:30:16 2003 - Damian's name has been spelt wrong all this time :( 0.52 Tue Oct 30 14:25:08 2001 - whoops, no prerequisites 0.51 Sat Aug 04 13:45:10 2001 - *cough* name changed to Strine on instructions from some irate Aussies 0.5 Fri Aug 03 11:53:08 2001 - finally uploaded to CPAN 0.01 Tue Jul 24 03:41:48 2001 - original version; created by h2xs 1.20 with options -X Acme::Lingua::Strian::Perl /-\ http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu Wed Sep 10 01:22:26 2003 From: Nathan.Bailey at its.monash.edu (Nathan Bailey) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:01 2004 Subject: Perl career progression (Was: Perl work at Monash) In-Reply-To: "10 Sep 2003 16:06:04 +1000." <"20030910060604.10739.qmail"@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200309100622.h8A6MRSW033660@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> =?iso-8859-1?q?Andrew=20Savige?= wrote: >Who's Damien Moore? http://www.googlism.com/ says: >"damien moore is a 1st dan junior black belt in tae kwon do". He's #3 on a normal google search. A Monash alumni, but I'm not sure if he's a perl hacker? Damien? :-) re, N From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Sep 11 03:20:27 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: WYSIWYG Web-based HTML Editor In-Reply-To: <200309100622.h8A6MRSW033660@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> References: <200309100622.h8A6MRSW033660@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> Message-ID: At the pub last night I mentioned that I'd written an HTML editor a few years back and that it was on my Mac somewhere. Well I found it. I've dusted it off and put a description around it. As I mentioned, there's one problem with it: It only works for users of IE on Windows. I can't promise what will happen on anything else. On MacIE it looks right, but doesn't work! It might work with the new Mozillas but I doubt it. I'll have a look sometime to see if it could be ported fairly easily to Mozilla. http://www.printaform.com.au/WYSIWYG/ Cheers! Rick Measham From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Sep 11 18:10:56 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: WYSIWYG Web-based HTML Editor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <331AB23B-E4AD-11D7-B74E-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, Sep 11, 2003, at 18:20 Australia/Melbourne, Rick Measham wrote: > At the pub last night I mentioned that I'd written an HTML editor a > few years back and that it was on my Mac somewhere. Well I found it. > I've dusted it off and put a description around it. > > As I mentioned, there's one problem with it: It only works for users > of IE on Windows. I can't promise what will happen on anything else. > On MacIE it looks right, but doesn't work! > > It might work with the new Mozillas but I doubt it. I'll have a look > sometime to see if it could be ported fairly easily to Mozilla. > > http://www.printaform.com.au/WYSIWYG/ Tried it on Mac Safari - looks ok, buttons work and pop down etc. But text box is empty. Thanks for putting it up :-) Scott - - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/YQDvDCFCcmAm26YRApyuAJ4kcydPt0W0Kyfx/Y8Ap4uCKrOLfgCeINZo vLPPcQvtRsHWcuqhTWiYqxs= =3sOF - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/YQEBDCFCcmAm26YRAn5pAKCtEdgXfxpop+DyL9bhLC9tgx3AVgCfb07G VRdNjbVbEzqBtT1i4RzRfIo= =vHNB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Sep 11 19:30:45 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: WYSIWYG Web-based HTML Editor In-Reply-To: <20030912095245.A3949@ronnie.barrett.com.au> References: <200309100622.h8A6MRSW033660@goaway.its.monash.edu.au> <20030912095245.A3949@ronnie.barrett.com.au> Message-ID: I said: > It might work with the new Mozillas but I doubt it. I'll have a look > sometime to see if it could be ported fairly easily to Mozilla. At 9:52 AM +1000 12/9/03, Jobst Schmalenbach replied: >it should be fairly easy ... i havent got the time in the moment >(huge project going) but if you replace > > var eb = document.all.wysiwygtoolbar > >with its DOM alternative > > var eb = document.getElementById('wysiwygtoolbar') > >it should work. Unfortunately it's not that simple. There's an extra file that gets called (editarea.htm) and its in there that most of the 'magic' occurs. I imagine we could create several of these editarea files for the various browsers that could have WYSIWYG capabilities. I'll take a look at Mozilla's rich text capabilities. I just downloaded and installed it on my Mac. Cheers and Thanks! Rick From Martin at cleaver.org Thu Sep 11 19:43:30 2003 From: Martin at cleaver.org (Martin@cleaver.org) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: WYSIWYG Web-based HTML Editor In-Reply-To: <331AB23B-E4AD-11D7-B74E-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> Message-ID: You might also like to take a look at Htmlarea - its being integrated with some Wiki's such as TWiki - http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/HtmlAreaEditor BTW. My apologies to Scott - I never did manage to get and confirm a time to present TWiki to you all. Regards, Martin. -- Martin@Cleaver.org - +1 416 832 7759 (Toronto) Melbourne Business School FT 2004 MBA Exchange Participant to Rotman =-----Original Message----- =From: owner-melbourne-pm@pm.org [mailto:owner-melbourne-pm@pm.org] On =Behalf Of Scott Penrose =Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2003 7:11 PM =To: Rick Measham =Cc: melbourne-pm@pm.org =Subject: Re: WYSIWYG Web-based HTML Editor = =-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =Hash: SHA1 = =- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =Hash: SHA1 = =On Thursday, Sep 11, 2003, at 18:20 Australia/Melbourne, Rick Measham =wrote: => At the pub last night I mentioned that I'd written an HTML editor a => few years back and that it was on my Mac somewhere. Well I found it. => I've dusted it off and put a description around it. => => As I mentioned, there's one problem with it: It only works for users => of IE on Windows. I can't promise what will happen on anything else. => On MacIE it looks right, but doesn't work! => => It might work with the new Mozillas but I doubt it. I'll have a look => sometime to see if it could be ported fairly easily to Mozilla. => => http://www.printaform.com.au/WYSIWYG/ = =Tried it on Mac Safari - looks ok, buttons work and pop down etc. =But text box is empty. = =Thanks for putting it up :-) = =Scott =- - -- Scott Penrose =Anthropomorphic Personification Expert =http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT =scott@cpan.org = =Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this =email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to =guarantee the quantity or the order. =- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- =Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) =Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org = =iD8DBQE/YQDvDCFCcmAm26YRApyuAJ4kcydPt0W0Kyfx/Y8Ap4uCKrOLfgCeINZo =vLPPcQvtRsHWcuqhTWiYqxs= ==3sOF =- -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- = = =- -- =Scott Penrose =VP in charge of Pancakes =http://linux.dd.com.au/ =scottp@dd.com.au = =Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it =immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. =-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- =Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) =Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org = =iD8DBQE/YQEBDCFCcmAm26YRAn5pAKCtEdgXfxpop+DyL9bhLC9tgx3AVgCfb07G =VRdNjbVbEzqBtT1i4RzRfIo= ==vHNB =-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rickm at printaform.com.au Thu Sep 11 19:51:16 2003 From: rickm at printaform.com.au (Rick Measham) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: Rich Text Editor for Mozilla Message-ID: Whaddayaknow: http://www.mozilla.org/editor/midasdemo/ already done. So now there's a version for Mozilla and mine for WinIE. Now, for YaCMaS, a possible way to handle file uploads in tabs in IE: Create the tabset, but put all the file uploads (both for images and icons) on the one tab. Then put your tricky collection script to suck all the other values into hidden fields on this one form and make that the one that's submitted. Just an idea. Cheers! Rick From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Sep 11 20:23:28 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: YaCMaS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rodd has given me a 'yet to be licensed' version of YaCMaS to start configurations for Perl Mongers. I am going to have a bash at getting it up there this weekend and will keep you all informed at how I go. Does anyone (Brad ?) want to see if we are allowed to run the server on pm.org. Scott - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/YR/yDCFCcmAm26YRAugkAKCceEctJlQCYNea/brnLgPW2zoW4wCfeXTs Ta0rMPrc5PxGx0iNzetvXIQ= =5LI4 - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/YSARDCFCcmAm26YRAvJxAJ4mi+3F32IS7yQMH7lH0SiSqUupPgCeN3lC ajJ+3LAbj9kTTJpNRinKXT0= =5MyM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From EWD at MSDD.NET Sun Sep 14 03:48:16 2003 From: EWD at MSDD.NET (=?Big5?B?s3C7u6Rs?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?sGWnQaRXpECmuKq6qLqn9Krh?= Message-ID: <200309141327.h8EDRK121573@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030914/2a880a9d/attachment.htm From 239449 at excite.com Sat Sep 20 21:51:28 2003 From: 239449 at excite.com (239449@excite.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: DVD Backup Movies 239449 Message-ID: <200309201331.h8KDVEu24025@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030920/462e6f81/attachment.htm From j1328 at ms89.url.com.tw Sat Sep 20 11:00:59 2003 From: j1328 at ms89.url.com.tw (=?Big5?B?pHCxbA==?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: =?Big5?B?Li4uLi6zb7W5p0Gs3Q==?= Message-ID: <20030920170003.EF31C48795@mail1.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030921/9e47d7ac/attachment.htm From 239502 at delphi.com Tue Sep 23 15:35:52 2003 From: 239502 at delphi.com (239502@delphi.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200309230732.h8N7Wid27370@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030923/344be706/attachment.htm From hd30vau at earthlink.net Wed Sep 24 03:17:40 2003 From: hd30vau at earthlink.net (Carmen Monroe) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: Want an Investment Backed By Real Property? mj c g vg vxgi Message-ID: <67$z-0g9a$81tx$$qoe641lh$-9-o@x8ul.tb> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030924/9a60806e/attachment.htm From scottp at dd.com.au Wed Sep 24 21:20:23 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: ActiveState acquired by Sophos Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I thought this would be interesting to members. Scott Begin forwarded message: > From: pudge@perl.org > Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:05:26 Australia/Melbourne > To: scottp@dd.com.au > Subject: [use Perl] Stories for 2003-09-25 > > use Perl Daily Newsletter > > In this issue: > * ActiveState Acquired By Sophos > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | ActiveState Acquired By Sophos | > | posted by Simon on Wednesday September 24, @07:12 (activestate) | > | http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/24/1114210 | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > Tony pointed me at this interesting [0]press release: "Sophos, a world > leader in anti-virus protection for businesses, today announced that it > has acquired ActiveState, a North American software company that > develops > anti-spam software for enterprises and professional tools for open > source > language programmers". Early indications are they Sophos want to > continue > with ActiveState's language tools as well as the anti-spam stuff, but > time will tell. Update: [1]davorg points at this [2]letter to AS > customers. > > Discuss this story at: > http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=03/09/24/1114210 > > Links: > 0. http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/pressrel/uk/activestate.html > 1. http://www.dave.org.uk/ > 2. http://activestate.com/Corporate/Letter/ > > > > Copyright 1997-2003 pudge. All rights reserved. > > > ====================================================================== > > You have received this message because you subscribed to it > on use Perl. To stop receiving this and other > messages from use Perl, or to add more messages > or change your preferences, please go to your user page. > > http://use.perl.org/my/messages/ > > You can log in and change your preferences from there. > > > - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/clDoDCFCcmAm26YRAtMLAJ43/BxClIWRGk5af8E1czpssg/LjwCglEg0 AjJFbOI0Jmb8dPrp8KixPSU= =UOGy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From 239536 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 10:07:00 2003 From: 239536 at yahoo.com (239536@yahoo.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: Back up your favorite Playstation 2 Games! 239536 Message-ID: <200309250707.h8P77IL04381@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030925/d15f8ef6/attachment.htm From 239555 at bigfoot.com Fri Sep 26 08:23:31 2003 From: 239555 at bigfoot.com (239555@bigfoot.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: INCREASED SEXUAL STAMINA! 239555 Message-ID: <200309260020.h8Q0KR014739@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030926/a609ce98/attachment.htm From scottp at dd.com.au Thu Sep 25 19:29:38 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: YaCMaS Message-ID: <82F0C11A-EFB8-11D7-832A-003065B58CF8@dd.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey Dudes, YaCMaS is now on our melbourne perl mongers site. Thanks to Rodd for passing me on the code. It is by far a long way from being complete. I am yet to apply our own style to it, or transfer the data. If any of you would like an account to help maintain the site, could you please email me your details and I will create it over the weekend. After we get the skin and content in I will send out another email to get people to check it out. Ta Scott - -- Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT scott@cpan.org Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/c4h1DCFCcmAm26YRAqoDAJ95pp/Wav6q7Tc3a4ojq5bpD6YAFACffmic MEdIUb+lEg1g3YGhpS9sztY= =C39Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From 239604 at excite.com Sun Sep 28 21:08:44 2003 From: 239604 at excite.com (239604@excite.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: Now you can Make DVD's using your PC! 239604 Message-ID: <200309281250.h8SConX19311@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030928/8742b9ec/attachment.htm From nina145214 at yahoo.com.br Sun Sep 28 09:38:01 2003 From: nina145214 at yahoo.com.br (nina145214) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject: SEXO SEXO CAMERAS AO VIVO,FILMES E LONGA DURACAO E TUDO MAIS Message-ID: <20030928125740.14A30982D3@mail3.panix.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030928/b92998a6/attachment.htm From 239620 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 29 17:23:58 2003 From: 239620 at yahoo.com (239620@yahoo.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:02 2004 Subject:  Message-ID: <200309290912.h8T9CIx28586@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030929/be04d861/attachment.htm From 239634 at email.com Tue Sep 30 10:28:02 2003 From: 239634 at email.com (239634@email.com) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:03 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200309300206.h8U26Dx07389@mail.pm.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030930/479b3314/attachment.htm From n4qxrs at msn.com Mon Sep 29 21:55:06 2003 From: n4qxrs at msn.com (Bobby Wade) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:03 2004 Subject: Reduce Travel Costs pl ifgtfxljjl c Message-ID: <6$1$c6-6j-a23$yqu23ob1iq$6@7sray> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.pm.org/archives/melbourne-pm/attachments/20030930/ab159abd/attachment.htm From mir at pax.apana.org.au Mon Sep 29 21:45:57 2003 From: mir at pax.apana.org.au (Mirko Fluher) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:03 2004 Subject: spams Message-ID: <1064889956.1593.277.camel@pax.apana.org.au> I get more spams from this list than actual real email :( -- http://pax.apana.org.au From benji at arsimagica.net Mon Sep 29 23:10:10 2003 From: benji at arsimagica.net (Benji Wakely) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:03 2004 Subject: spams In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:45:57 +1000." <1064889956.1593.277.camel@pax.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <200309300410.h8U4AAVw003235@arch.localnet> On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:45:57 +1000, Mirko Fluher wrote: >I get more spams from this list than actual real email :( > Does that, or this, count as spam? :) -Benji From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 29 23:29:58 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:03 2004 Subject: spams In-Reply-To: <200309300410.h8U4AAVw003235@arch.localnet> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 We have not had a chance to implement / review it yet - and I would be VERY glad for anyone to take this on - but we were planning to implement Spam Assassin and start logging archives of the list to our site. This should not be hard. We have SSH access to the server and the maintainer of the server is very cool about adding code etc. But I am uncertain to the actual way we must get this done, I don't even know how it can be hooked in (maybe it is just a I have asked for a new password for managing the list - should be here soon. BTW. For some stats... I have only received 11 spam messages in the last 250 posts from this list. It just happens that the spam has come in 4 times in the last few days - and there has not been much other news. Scooter On Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003, at 14:10 Australia/Melbourne, Benji Wakely wrote: > > On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:45:57 +1000, > Mirko Fluher wrote: > >> I get more spams from this list than actual real email :( >> > > Does that, or this, count as spam? > :) > > -Benji > > > - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/eQbMDCFCcmAm26YRAg4ZAJwP8H9Spkn+4MDb8sHpmGwEldE2+QCgkYzG bKbTbMkg3gTqaaWOxgPf3LY= =vY28 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scottp at dd.com.au Mon Sep 29 23:30:41 2003 From: scottp at dd.com.au (Scott Penrose) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:03 2004 Subject: New Web Site Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey Dudes, Our new web site is a long way from up - but it is a start. Take a peak at http://melbourne.pm.org/ Scooter - -- Scott Penrose VP in charge of Pancakes http://linux.dd.com.au/ scottp@dd.com.au Dismaimer: If you receive this email in error - please eat it immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (Darwin) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/eQbyDCFCcmAm26YRAgjFAJ0bParPCH4apYmhruTB0nSHYDhopACeKr6f oAvKcMadhRmw10VxJ5du1fE= =KK/S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nworld_man at hotmail.com Mon Sep 15 02:17:14 2003 From: nworld_man at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-5?B?TndvcmxkX21hbg==?=) Date: Wed Aug 4 00:03:23 2004 Subject: =?iso-8859-5?B?RG8geW91IHNlYXJjaCBqb2I/?= Message-ID: <000b01c4faac$ac809ff9$a3ca4143@shfds> Do you want to have the second part-time well paid job? Do you have 1 business hour free during the week? It's Good! Now we are working with USA and UK, but We need reliable partners in Australia and New Zeland! Our designers & developers team (NWORLD Web Design Studio), offering you to be our partner. Our web site url is http://www.nworld2000me.org/ Here you can see information about us and our services. You should have 1 business hour free during the week and banking account in one of these banks: Commonwealth, ANZ, NATIONAL, WESTPAC or in any other reliable bank. Job description: 1. Receive the money transfers on banking account 2. Take 7% from the sum which have sent to you 3. Send other part of received money to our manager via bank transfer (Western Union for first time) 4. Report to our manager via e-mail (to job@nworld2000me.org or nworld_m2000@hotmail.com) transfer details. We'll inform you on the tranfered money (they will be already accessible on your banking account) in the morning on Australian time, you should be receive money the same day and transfer to us, this one of our conditions because time is money, from this money we should pay the salary to employees and contractors, and to detain the salary not in our rules! For the beginning we shall send the small sum to check up you on honesty, the responsibility and skill to communicate. If you approach us that we shall conclude the contract for the further cooperation with you! The sums in Australia are up to 15000-30000$ per month (1000-8000$ AUD transfers) and in New Zeland 10000-15000$ per month (1000-8000 transfers). Your earn per month are 1050-2100$ in Australia and 700-1050$ in New Zeland. >From that as you carry out this task the opportunity of our further cooperation depends. From those who will write to us to the first and will pass the test task we shall choose one person in Australia and one person in New Zealand. For first time we shall give you the Western Union details for translate money to us since it is the fastest way of translate money to us, further we shall be using our banking accounts. For the beginning please fill the form below and send it to us (job@nworld2000me.org or nworld_m2000@hotmail.com) , we'll give the answer in the nearest 12 hours! First Name: Last Name: Address: City: Country: Email: Phone: Age: Sex: Current Job: Family income: Days on following week (27-30 April) when you will have 1 business hour to receive and transfer money to us: Banks in which you have banking accounts and banking accounts details: