From p at chudpi.org  Mon Sep  8 09:54:22 2008
From: p at chudpi.org (pete)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 09:54:22 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
Message-ID: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>

What a neat idea!
http://www.perlproject.org/

Pete.

-- 
It is important that you are happy.
- D. Maddox
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20080908/19008d1b/attachment.html>

From naterajj at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 10:10:22 2008
From: naterajj at gmail.com (Juan Jose Natera)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 10:10:22 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <349627440809081010y18eb0e69y64be0bf5d4e9a698@mail.gmail.com>

That is a pretty good idea, I wonder if we could get a suitable
location for a whole
day to do an introductory Perl course.

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 9:54 AM, pete <p at chudpi.org> wrote:
> What a neat idea!
> http://www.perlproject.org/
>
> Pete.
>
> --
> It is important that you are happy.
> - D. Maddox
>
> _______________________________________________
> Losangeles-pm mailing list
> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
>

From jeff at yoak.com  Mon Sep  8 11:09:42 2008
From: jeff at yoak.com (Jeff Yoak)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:09:42 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <349627440809081010y18eb0e69y64be0bf5d4e9a698@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<349627440809081010y18eb0e69y64be0bf5d4e9a698@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52928615-592B-4C7C-9F23-462AFCCFDDB7@yoak.com>

Until 5 months ago I worked as an engineering director over at  
Shopzilla and would have volunteered then.  I'm nearly 100% certain  
that they would still love to host.  If that's appealing, contact me  
off-list and I'll send you the person's name to reach.  (Or check the  
headers carefully.  ;-) )

Cheers,
Jeff


On Sep 8, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Juan Jose Natera wrote:

> That is a pretty good idea, I wonder if we could get a suitable
> location for a whole
> day to do an introductory Perl course.
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 9:54 AM, pete <p at chudpi.org> wrote:
>> What a neat idea!
>> http://www.perlproject.org/
>>
>> Pete.
>>
>> --
>> It is important that you are happy.
>> - D. Maddox
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Losangeles-pm mailing list
>> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Losangeles-pm mailing list
> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm

-- 
Jeff Yoak
jeff at yoak.com





From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Sep  8 11:24:19 2008
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:24:19 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	(p@chudpi.org's message of "Mon, 8 Sep 2008 09:54:22 -0700")
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "pete" == pete  <p at chudpi.org> writes:

pete> What a neat idea!
pete> http://www.perlproject.org/

It's unfortunate that even the little text that is there
is riddled with errors.

{sigh}

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

From andy at petdance.com  Mon Sep  8 11:37:52 2008
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:37:52 -0500
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>


On Sep 8, 2008, at 1:24 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

> pete> What a neat idea!
> pete> http://www.perlproject.org/
>
> It's unfortunate that even the little text that is there
> is riddled with errors.
>
> {sigh}


I think what Randal meant to say was "That's fantastic that someone is  
undertaking a project like this, to help bring new Perl programmers  
into the fold.  Sure, there are some rough spots that I noticed and  
will forward to the authors, but overall, this is a great start!"

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance




From naterajj at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 11:38:56 2008
From: naterajj at gmail.com (Juan Jose Natera)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:38:56 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <349627440809081138g478305a5yd6e8f687a4b0ff73@mail.gmail.com>

That's how I took it :)

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> On Sep 8, 2008, at 1:24 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>
>> pete> What a neat idea!
>> pete> http://www.perlproject.org/
>>
>> It's unfortunate that even the little text that is there
>> is riddled with errors.
>>
>> {sigh}
>
>
> I think what Randal meant to say was "That's fantastic that someone is
> undertaking a project like this, to help bring new Perl programmers into the
> fold.  Sure, there are some rough spots that I noticed and will forward to
> the authors, but overall, this is a great start!"
>
> xoxo,
> Andy
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Losangeles-pm mailing list
> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
>

From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Mon Sep  8 11:42:25 2008
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:42:25 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com> (Andy
	Lester's message of "Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:37:52 -0500")
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

>>>>> "Andy" == Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> writes:

Andy> I think what Randal meant to say was "That's fantastic that someone is
Andy> undertaking a project like this, to help bring new Perl programmers into
Andy> the fold.  Sure, there are some rough spots that I noticed and will
Andy> forward to the authors, but overall, this is a great start!"

No, I meant what I'm said.  I'm disappointed at how few pages have so many
errors, so early in the cycle.

You can't teach this stuff until you master it.  And if you were a master, the
errors would already be apparent.  We don't need another case of "blind
leading the blind".  Too many of those already.

Hint: half the examples WON'T EVEN COMPILE.  No excuse for that.

Sorry for being blunt, but I'm tired of the bad text out there.  It doesn't
help Perl.  It hurts it.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

From andy at petdance.com  Mon Sep  8 11:45:54 2008
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:45:54 -0500
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>

> No, I meant what I'm said.  I'm disappointed at how few pages have  
> so many
> errors, so early in the cycle.

That's fine to be disappointed.  But you can fix errors, you can learn  
coding, what you can't learn is attitude and spirit and wanting to  
help the community.

I'll take a spirited player wanting to learn over a benchwarmer any day.

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance




From tecolote99 at pacbell.net  Mon Sep  8 11:55:18 2008
From: tecolote99 at pacbell.net (tecolote99)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:55:18 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] delete from email list.
Message-ID: <1220900118.6290.10.camel@usario-nb.dslextreme.com>

Please remove me from your email/contact list.

Thanks,

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20080908/798a8a35/attachment-0001.html>

From btilly at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 12:05:49 2008
From: btilly at gmail.com (Ben Tilly)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:05:49 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>> No, I meant what I'm said.  I'm disappointed at how few pages have so many
>> errors, so early in the cycle.
>
> That's fine to be disappointed.  But you can fix errors, you can learn
> coding, what you can't learn is attitude and spirit and wanting to help the
> community.

The way to fix errors and coding is to be firm on not tolerating them
while demonstrating how to do them well.  Randal may have expressed
that harshly, but he has done both parts of this for years.

My firm opinion is that part of the reasons why perlmonks works as
well as it does is that some people early on, including me and Randal,
helped set the culture there to value *both* accuracy and helpfulness.
 Try it.  Go and try to give a deliberately wrong answer to a
question.  See how long it takes you to get corrected.

Getting that attitude in the culture of a group at the start takes a
lot of work.  Reverse engineering that attitude into an established
group is probably impossible.  It is therefore extremely important to
be sure that any new group that wishes to help starts with high
standards and then tries to maintain them.

> I'll take a spirited player wanting to learn over a benchwarmer any day.

I'll take a benchwarmer over a spirited newcomer who has not learned
and objects when informed of the need to learn before trying to inform
others.  At least the benchwarmer is not actively causing harm.

Cheers,
Ben

From andy at petdance.com  Mon Sep  8 12:09:45 2008
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:09:45 -0500
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>

>> I'll take a spirited player wanting to learn over a benchwarmer any  
>> day.
>
> I'll take a benchwarmer over a spirited newcomer who has not learned
> and objects when informed of the need to learn before trying to inform
> others.  At least the benchwarmer is not actively causing harm.

I can't see that someone saying "Hey, I'm developing this" is "causing  
harm."

And I certainly didn't see anything in response other than "boy, that  
sucks."

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance




From brian.d.foy at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 12:45:22 2008
From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:45:22 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
Message-ID: <2715accf0809081245i5fd90007g54bf9c78069181a4@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going to be in the LA area quite a bit next year, and I could
easily do a one or two day open enrollment course for any of the
Stonehenge classes just like I do in Chicago. They can't be free, but
they'll be at a lower cost than most places. The only thing I need is
a venue. :)

But, you also don't need to do new work to get Perl content to teach
your own class. I know that Lyle, the guy behind that free Perl
course, is using our book _Learning Perl_, which is designed as a
teaching book (although apparently the slides on his website are not
from anything in our book). We also have the "Learning Perl Student
Workbook" which has additional exercises for each of the chapters.
That material encapsulates over 15 years teaching Perl and students
asking us questions, so you already have a lot of work done if you
start from there.

In some cases we've also licensed our slides and materials to
qualified instructors. That's a bit trickier, but possible.

Anyway, I look forward to doing stuff with LA.pm next year. Curiously,
I'm in Hollywood right now, but booked pretty solid. :(

-- 
brian d foy <brian.d.foy at gmail.com>
http://www.pair.com/~comdog/

From btilly at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 16:18:06 2008
From: btilly at gmail.com (Ben Tilly)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 16:18:06 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
	<883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>>> I'll take a spirited player wanting to learn over a benchwarmer any day.
>>
>> I'll take a benchwarmer over a spirited newcomer who has not learned
>> and objects when informed of the need to learn before trying to inform
>> others.  At least the benchwarmer is not actively causing harm.
>
> I can't see that someone saying "Hey, I'm developing this" is "causing
> harm."

Talk to someone who had to unlearn a bad introduction to Perl if you
don't see the harm.  To name someone we both know, I would suggest
getting an earful from Curtis Poe (Ovid in perlmonks).

Now he obviously did unlearn his bad introduction.  I've encountered
other programmers, including some smart people, who never did.

> And I certainly didn't see anything in response other than "boy, that
> sucks."

You say that like it is always bad to point out suckage.

Cheers,
Ben

From andy at petdance.com  Mon Sep  8 18:19:54 2008
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:19:54 -0500
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
	<883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DA5A93AA-3218-44EA-9555-9575F0B8B565@petdance.com>


On Sep 8, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ben Tilly wrote:

> You say that like it is always bad to point out suckage.


At the expense of enthusiasm, with nothing positive on the flip side,  
yes I do think it's always bad to "point out" suckage, which usually  
takes the form of rude comments that pretend that the listener isn't  
actually a person with feelings.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From geekhunter at gmail.com  Mon Sep  8 23:21:23 2008
From: geekhunter at gmail.com (Todd Cranston-Cuebas)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:21:23 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <DA5A93AA-3218-44EA-9555-9575F0B8B565@petdance.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
	<883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA5A93AA-3218-44EA-9555-9575F0B8B565@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <803d9f750809082321h464b4120r213e28e6fd9ff339@mail.gmail.com>

Andy,
LOL I'm sorry, I just had to crack up. I haven't heard the word "suckage" in
a long time ;)

That being said, I can understand both sides of the argument. The perl
community has to be aware of a certain "reputation" and it doesn't help if
coders are using bad form, etc. On the other hand, I've argued for a good
long time that the perl community has a serious need to develop new talent
in just about any manner possible. Sometimes you need to just "hook" someone
on a simple example that helps them do something truly useful. From that
point on, they can grab onto books, additional training, etc. Simple, good
training doesn't necessarily have to be free though so I'm not going to get
into the argument of paid vs. free stuff.

I know that the php community in LA has been running extensive and truly
beginner classes on PHP and mySQL and graduate to more complex classes...
all for free. Ruby has extensive online courseware, learning videos, etc.
and clearly has an aim toward indoctrinating the masses. I can still
remember when perl was "the" choice for doing anything on the web and people
learned it to do mostly cgi work. From there, it grew, BUT the average
person was pulled to perl because it was the choice for the early web coder.
The argument could be made that something similar occurred to sysadmins
,etc. when perl was the defacto language for scripting. The world is
changing though. PHP, Ruby, and even Groovy are available for simple web
stuff. Sysadmins are relying more and more on python. In general, I applaud
any attempt to make perl accessible again.

Just my two cents. Suckage... that's just great ;)

todd

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:

>
> On Sep 8, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ben Tilly wrote:
>
>  You say that like it is always bad to point out suckage.
>>
>
>
> At the expense of enthusiasm, with nothing positive on the flip side, yes I
> do think it's always bad to "point out" suckage, which usually takes the
> form of rude comments that pretend that the listener isn't actually a person
> with feelings.
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Losangeles-pm mailing list
> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20080908/3de5fec0/attachment-0001.html>

From zrusilla at mac.com  Mon Sep  8 23:40:29 2008
From: zrusilla at mac.com (Elizabeth)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:40:29 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <803d9f750809082321h464b4120r213e28e6fd9ff339@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
	<883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA5A93AA-3218-44EA-9555-9575F0B8B565@petdance.com>
	<803d9f750809082321h464b4120r213e28e6fd9ff339@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48C61A5D.8020902@mac.com>

How about  a Teach-In?  London.pm's was quite successful.

http://london.pm.org/teach-in/
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/06/perl_teachin.html

From naterajj at gmail.com  Tue Sep  9 11:06:57 2008
From: naterajj at gmail.com (Juan Jose Natera)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 11:06:57 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <803d9f750809082321h464b4120r213e28e6fd9ff339@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<86ljy2zeb0.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
	<883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA5A93AA-3218-44EA-9555-9575F0B8B565@petdance.com>
	<803d9f750809082321h464b4120r213e28e6fd9ff339@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <349627440809091106h5124f676lc745ee2d8359856c@mail.gmail.com>

I believe everyone can agree that the idea of doing some introductory
Perl training is a good thing, but it needs to be good.

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Todd Cranston-Cuebas
<geekhunter at gmail.com> wrote:
> Andy,
> LOL I'm sorry, I just had to crack up. I haven't heard the word "suckage" in
> a long time ;)
> That being said, I can understand both sides of the argument. The perl
> community has to be aware of a certain "reputation" and it doesn't help if
> coders are using bad form, etc. On the other hand, I've argued for a good
> long time that the perl community has a serious need to develop new talent
> in just about any manner possible. Sometimes you need to just "hook" someone
> on a simple example that helps them do something truly useful. From that
> point on, they can grab onto books, additional training, etc. Simple, good
> training doesn't necessarily have to be free though so I'm not going to get
> into the argument of paid vs. free stuff.
> I know that the php community in LA has been running extensive and truly
> beginner classes on PHP and mySQL and graduate to more complex classes...
> all for free. Ruby has extensive online courseware, learning videos, etc.
> and clearly has an aim toward indoctrinating the masses. I can still
> remember when perl was "the" choice for doing anything on the web and people
> learned it to do mostly cgi work. From there, it grew, BUT the average
> person was pulled to perl because it was the choice for the early web coder.
> The argument could be made that something similar occurred to sysadmins
> ,etc. when perl was the defacto language for scripting. The world is
> changing though. PHP, Ruby, and even Groovy are available for simple web
> stuff. Sysadmins are relying more and more on python. In general, I applaud
> any attempt to make perl accessible again.
> Just my two cents. Suckage... that's just great ;)
> todd
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 8, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ben Tilly wrote:
>>
>>> You say that like it is always bad to point out suckage.
>>
>>
>> At the expense of enthusiasm, with nothing positive on the flip side, yes
>> I do think it's always bad to "point out" suckage, which usually takes the
>> form of rude comments that pretend that the listener isn't actually a person
>> with feelings.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Losangeles-pm mailing list
>> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Losangeles-pm mailing list
> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
>

From p at chudpi.org  Tue Sep  9 12:30:15 2008
From: p at chudpi.org (pete)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 12:30:15 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <349627440809091106h5124f676lc745ee2d8359856c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
	<883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA5A93AA-3218-44EA-9555-9575F0B8B565@petdance.com>
	<803d9f750809082321h464b4120r213e28e6fd9ff339@mail.gmail.com>
	<349627440809091106h5124f676lc745ee2d8359856c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ad4005e0809091230ia7dba51jb32b95ec236bfcc7@mail.gmail.com>

Which is really all I said in the first place.  It's a neat idea.

Why the discussion had to deteriorate to degrading comments I attribute to
unrestrained passion we all share for Perl.
Passion is great.
So is restraint.

Pete.

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Juan Jose Natera <naterajj at gmail.com>wrote:

> I believe everyone can agree that the idea of doing some introductory
> Perl training is a good thing, but it needs to be good.
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Todd Cranston-Cuebas
> <geekhunter at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Andy,
> > LOL I'm sorry, I just had to crack up. I haven't heard the word "suckage"
> in
> > a long time ;)
> > That being said, I can understand both sides of the argument. The perl
> > community has to be aware of a certain "reputation" and it doesn't help
> if
> > coders are using bad form, etc. On the other hand, I've argued for a good
> > long time that the perl community has a serious need to develop new
> talent
> > in just about any manner possible. Sometimes you need to just "hook"
> someone
> > on a simple example that helps them do something truly useful. From that
> > point on, they can grab onto books, additional training, etc. Simple,
> good
> > training doesn't necessarily have to be free though so I'm not going to
> get
> > into the argument of paid vs. free stuff.
> > I know that the php community in LA has been running extensive and truly
> > beginner classes on PHP and mySQL and graduate to more complex classes...
> > all for free. Ruby has extensive online courseware, learning videos, etc.
> > and clearly has an aim toward indoctrinating the masses. I can still
> > remember when perl was "the" choice for doing anything on the web and
> people
> > learned it to do mostly cgi work. From there, it grew, BUT the average
> > person was pulled to perl because it was the choice for the early web
> coder.
> > The argument could be made that something similar occurred to sysadmins
> > ,etc. when perl was the defacto language for scripting. The world is
> > changing though. PHP, Ruby, and even Groovy are available for simple web
> > stuff. Sysadmins are relying more and more on python. In general, I
> applaud
> > any attempt to make perl accessible again.
> > Just my two cents. Suckage... that's just great ;)
> > todd
> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sep 8, 2008, at 6:18 PM, Ben Tilly wrote:
> >>
> >>> You say that like it is always bad to point out suckage.
> >>
> >>
> >> At the expense of enthusiasm, with nothing positive on the flip side,
> yes
> >> I do think it's always bad to "point out" suckage, which usually takes
> the
> >> form of rude comments that pretend that the listener isn't actually a
> person
> >> with feelings.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Losangeles-pm mailing list
> >> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> >> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Losangeles-pm mailing list
> > Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Losangeles-pm mailing list
> Losangeles-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/losangeles-pm
>



-- 
It is important that you are happy.
- D. Maddox
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20080909/a352121c/attachment.html>

From dpisoni at gmail.com  Tue Sep  9 12:47:27 2008
From: dpisoni at gmail.com (David Pisoni)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 12:47:27 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] Anyone with a teaching bug?
In-Reply-To: <4ad4005e0809091230ia7dba51jb32b95ec236bfcc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ad4005e0809080954p7b043f27l6bd133667e53607@mail.gmail.com>
	<13ACA7E7-9E16-4498-BBB9-F0B42DF044D0@petdance.com>
	<86d4jezdgu.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<5DC7D903-3376-4162-A9DA-04FE17C58241@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081205u63f74428h8ce48c2b50f03135@mail.gmail.com>
	<883B9978-22BF-4110-89F6-BAD0B75E0806@petdance.com>
	<acc274b30809081618n8d3c71fnaad875d2becce283@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA5A93AA-3218-44EA-9555-9575F0B8B565@petdance.com>
	<803d9f750809082321h464b4120r213e28e6fd9ff339@mail.gmail.com>
	<349627440809091106h5124f676lc745ee2d8359856c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ad4005e0809091230ia7dba51jb32b95ec236bfcc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <890B5304-9F15-4DEF-9628-B4DDB224C8CA@gmail.com>

On Sep 9, 2008, at 12.30 , pete wrote:

> Passion is great.
> So is restraint.

For some reason, this statement reminds me of the the SOTO,  
"Diligence, Patience, and Humility."

David

"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do  
the work of one extraordinary man." - Elbert Hubbard, author, editor,  
printer (1856-1915)


From chris at chrisgrau.com  Wed Sep 24 13:42:57 2008
From: chris at chrisgrau.com (Chris Grau)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:42:57 -0700
Subject: [LA.pm] [San-Diego-pm] Damian Conway is coming...
Message-ID: <20080924204257.GC26177@chrisgrau.com>

Something that may be of interest.  Directions can be found on the web
site, <http://sandiego.pm.org/>.

----- Forwarded message from Bob Kleemann -----

From: Bob Kleemann
To: Perl Mongers <san-diego-pm at pm.org>
Subject: [San-Diego-pm] Damian Conway is coming...
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 23:36:53 -0700

Ladies and Gentlemen, Techies and Programmers,

The San Diego Perl Mongers are happy to announce, for one night only, the one
and only Damian Conway!  He will be appearing Monday night, September 29 at
the Qualcomm Building Q Auditorium.  Please arrive by 7 PM to hear him muse
on a myriad of topics, including, but not limited to (in his own words):

    modern archaeological techniques, bidirectional cross- dressing, Ancient
    Greeks hackers, improbable romances, the real Club Med, why programmers
    shouldn't frequent casinos, the language of moisture vaporators, C++
    mysticism, conversational Latin, state machines on steroids, feeding the
    dog the old-fashioned way, the shocking truth about anime, programming
    without variables or subroutines, the Four Voids of the Apocalypse,
    Microsoft's new advertising campaign, what the Romans used instead of
    braces, drunken stonemasons, the ancient probabilistic wisdom of bodkins,
    how to kill a language with a single byte, and the price of fish.

Note: Topics are subject to change without notice, reason, or warning, so
please pay attention!

So please come on by and learn something new.  Bring some friends if you like,
and have fun in the process.

Please let me know if there are any questions.

_______________________________________________
San-Diego-pm mailing list
San-Diego-pm at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/san-diego-pm

----- End forwarded message -----
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/losangeles-pm/attachments/20080924/f83b30c2/attachment.bin>