From sungo at qx.net Mon Apr 2 23:57:49 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: ok. here's the deal. rich is gone. aka rich cant make things happen. are we going to have a meeting or what? i can talk about anything you want. POE is heavy on my mind these days, as is modperl magic. i'd also be willing to chair a roundtable discussion of whatever you want. so you have a speaker. we need a place. databeam folks? can we borrow a conference room? do i need to call restaurants? i'd like to plan this for week from this friday. so lets either get moving or let me know to not think about this again and i will. if you all really dont care anymore, then its not worth my energy and brain cycles to pretend you all do care. m. From dpitts at mk.net Tue Apr 3 01:19:47 2001 From: dpitts at mk.net (David Pitts) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: Re: this month. References: Message-ID: <016601c0bc06$15539a00$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Okay, Here is the deal with the use of the Chamber of Commerce Facilities for lunch. I talked to the people over there and they said it would be no problem to use their front room (it has limited connectivity and overhead display and can seat around 30). I told them that Rich would be calling to make reservations. They suggested that if we wanted to use it on a regular basis that we go ahead and schedule it for whenever we wanted it because it is scheduled on a first come first serve basis. Is this the path we want to travel down? If so, Rich or I or Matt can call and check for availability and make reservations. Thanks, David Pitts http://www.dpitts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Cashner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:57 AM Subject: LPM: this month. > ok. here's the deal. rich is gone. aka rich cant make things happen. are > we going to have a meeting or what? i can talk about anything you > want. POE is heavy on my mind these days, as is modperl magic. i'd also > be willing to chair a roundtable discussion of whatever you want. > > so you have a speaker. we need a place. databeam folks? can we borrow a > conference room? do i need to call restaurants? i'd like to plan this for > week from this friday. > > so lets either get moving or let me know to not think about this again and > i will. if you all really dont care anymore, then its not worth my energy > and brain cycles to pretend you all do care. > > m. > > > From wsheldahl at qx.net Tue Apr 3 05:46:49 2001 From: wsheldahl at qx.net (Wesley Sheldahl) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: Re: this month. In-Reply-To: <016601c0bc06$15539a00$7801a8c0@adverb.com>; from dpitts@mk.net on Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 02:19:47 -0400 References: <016601c0bc06$15539a00$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: <20010403064649.A1668@fred.qx.net> That sounds good. Matt, I wouldn't mind hearing about some Poe details. Are we still having it in the evening, or moving to lunch time? I won't be able to make it at lunch time, but I know dem's da breaks and would understand...... On 2001.04.03 02:19 David Pitts wrote: > Okay, > Here is the deal with the use of the Chamber of Commerce Facilities for > lunch. > I talked to the people over there and they said it would be no problem to > use their front room (it has limited connectivity and overhead display > and > can seat around 30). I told them that Rich would be calling to make > reservations. They suggested that if we wanted to use it on a regular > basis > that we go ahead and schedule it for whenever we wanted it because it is > scheduled on a first come first serve basis. > > Is this the path we want to travel down? If so, Rich or I or Matt can > call > and check for availability and make reservations. > > Thanks, > > David Pitts > http://www.dpitts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Cashner" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:57 AM > Subject: LPM: this month. > > > > ok. here's the deal. rich is gone. aka rich cant make things happen. > are > > we going to have a meeting or what? i can talk about anything you > > want. POE is heavy on my mind these days, as is modperl magic. i'd > also > > be willing to chair a roundtable discussion of whatever you want. > > > > so you have a speaker. we need a place. databeam folks? can we borrow a > > conference room? do i need to call restaurants? i'd like to plan this > for > > week from this friday. > > > > so lets either get moving or let me know to not think about this again > and > > i will. if you all really dont care anymore, then its not worth my > energy > > and brain cycles to pretend you all do care. > > > > m. > > > > > > > > > -- Wes Sheldahl wsheldahl@qx.net From tom at cre8tivegroup.com Tue Apr 3 08:40:31 2001 From: tom at cre8tivegroup.com (Tom Braun) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. References: Message-ID: <3AC9D2CF.3C01979D@cre8tivegroup.com> A week from this Friday is Good Friday, so while I want to see a meeting materialize, may I suggest we find a different day. Tom Matt Cashner wrote: > > ok. here's the deal. rich is gone. aka rich cant make things happen. are > we going to have a meeting or what? i can talk about anything you > want. POE is heavy on my mind these days, as is modperl magic. i'd also > be willing to chair a roundtable discussion of whatever you want. > > so you have a speaker. we need a place. databeam folks? can we borrow a > conference room? do i need to call restaurants? i'd like to plan this for > week from this friday. > > so lets either get moving or let me know to not think about this again and > i will. if you all really dont care anymore, then its not worth my energy > and brain cycles to pretend you all do care. > > m. From gcasillo at ket.org Tue Apr 3 08:06:06 2001 From: gcasillo at ket.org (Gregg Casillo) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. References: Message-ID: <3AC9CABE.204@ket.org> I'd love to hear about POE. A lunch or evening meeting would be fine with me. Gregg Matt Cashner wrote: > ok. here's the deal. rich is gone. aka rich cant make things happen. are > we going to have a meeting or what? i can talk about anything you > want. POE is heavy on my mind these days, as is modperl magic. i'd also > be willing to chair a roundtable discussion of whatever you want. > > so you have a speaker. we need a place. databeam folks? can we borrow a > conference room? do i need to call restaurants? i'd like to plan this for > week from this friday. > > so lets either get moving or let me know to not think about this again and > i will. if you all really dont care anymore, then its not worth my energy > and brain cycles to pretend you all do care. > > m. > > > > From sungo at qx.net Tue Apr 3 08:45:36 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <3AC9D2CF.3C01979D@cre8tivegroup.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Tom Braun wrote: > A week from this Friday is Good Friday, so while I want to see a meeting > materialize, may I suggest we find a different day. ooo and thursday is maunday thursday. my head is, well, i'm not sure where. how does wednesday lunch sound to everyone? david, can we get this mystery room for wednesday lunch or evening? lets get the room situation finalized as soon as possible. if we do this at lunch, i'd like to arrange for a wilmore.pm meeting in the evening sometime for those folks who cant make it at lunch. does that sound kosher to everyone? ok. i will prepare to talk about POE. crap, i should have gotten website info from rich so i could update the lex.pm website. oh well. but anywho, my talk will probably be called "POE in the Real World" (i'm sure i could come up with some clever Raven reference but its still early and the coffee's not kicking in yet). so that's the story morning glory. good to know there's still life in this list :) m. From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Tue Apr 3 09:55:11 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D57@MOSES> > ok. here's the deal. rich is gone. aka rich cant make things > happen. are > we going to have a meeting or what? i can talk about anything you > want. POE is heavy on my mind these days, as is modperl > magic. i'd also > be willing to chair a roundtable discussion of whatever you want. OOO. We'll take you up on this in the future! I'd like to hear about POE and modperl both. > > so you have a speaker. we need a place. databeam folks? can > we borrow a > conference room? do i need to call restaurants? i'd like to > plan this for > week from this friday. Good Friday is probably not the best of times for most people. > so lets either get moving or let me know to not think about > this again and > i will. if you all really dont care anymore, then its not > worth my energy > and brain cycles to pretend you all do care. Give me a chance, and I will show up. Wait two more months. -- Ken From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Tue Apr 3 09:57:30 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D58@MOSES> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Cashner [mailto:sungo@qx.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:46 AM > To: lexington-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: LPM: this month. > > > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Tom Braun wrote: > > > A week from this Friday is Good Friday, so while I want to > see a meeting > > materialize, may I suggest we find a different day. > > ooo and thursday is maunday thursday. my head is, well, i'm not sure > where. how does wednesday lunch sound to everyone? david, can we get > this mystery room for wednesday lunch or evening? lets get the room > situation finalized as soon as possible. > > if we do this at lunch, i'd like to arrange for a wilmore.pm > meeting in > the evening sometime for those folks who cant make it at > lunch. does that > sound kosher to everyone? Fabulous. I could make an evening meeting in Wilmore a lot easier than a lunch meeting in Lex. Count me in for that one! -- Ken From sungo at qx.net Tue Apr 3 11:16:54 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D58@MOSES> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > Fabulous. I could make an evening meeting in Wilmore a lot easier > than a lunch meeting in Lex. Count me in for that one! ok. can we borrow the sigma zeta lounge for this? what sort of hoops do we need to jump for that? also, how many folks will be making the trek in for the evening meeting if we have one? m. From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Tue Apr 3 11:41:12 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D59@MOSES> > > Fabulous. I could make an evening meeting in Wilmore a lot easier > > than a lunch meeting in Lex. Count me in for that one! > > ok. can we borrow the sigma zeta lounge for this? what sort > of hoops do we > need to jump for that? Leave it to me. Give me the time you want the room, and I will get it. I don't think there is any evening scheduled activity there. -- Ken From sungo at qx.net Tue Apr 3 12:00:43 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D59@MOSES> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > Leave it to me. Give me the time you want the room, and I will > get it. I don't think there is any evening scheduled activity > there. whatever whenever. how does 7 sound? m. From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Tue Apr 3 13:17:23 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5A@MOSES> > > Leave it to me. Give me the time you want the room, and I will > > get it. I don't think there is any evening scheduled activity > > there. > > whatever whenever. how does 7 sound? I have the lounge reserved for 7-9 pm on 3/17. Food could be brought in, and I can also give access to the Linux lab, if need be. -- Ken From sungo at qx.net Tue Apr 3 13:46:29 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5A@MOSES> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > I have the lounge reserved for 7-9 pm on 3/17. Food could be brought > in, and I can also give access to the Linux lab, if need be. the 17th? i was thinking the 11th. a week from this wednesday in the evening. if that's not what we want, that's great. i'm just really confused. m. From dpitts at mk.net Tue Apr 3 13:56:29 2001 From: dpitts at mk.net (David Pitts) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. References: Message-ID: <021801c0bc6f$cab49d40$7801a8c0@adverb.com> This mystry room, as Matt referred to it, is only available during business hours - and that assumes it is not already scheduled. The Wednesday in question is a week from tomorrow, correct? Thanks, David Pitts http://www.dpitts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Cashner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: Re: LPM: this month. > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Tom Braun wrote: > > > A week from this Friday is Good Friday, so while I want to see a meeting > > materialize, may I suggest we find a different day. > > ooo and thursday is maunday thursday. my head is, well, i'm not sure > where. how does wednesday lunch sound to everyone? david, can we get > this mystery room for wednesday lunch or evening? lets get the room > situation finalized as soon as possible. > > if we do this at lunch, i'd like to arrange for a wilmore.pm meeting in > the evening sometime for those folks who cant make it at lunch. does that > sound kosher to everyone? > > ok. i will prepare to talk about POE. crap, i should have gotten website > info from rich so i could update the lex.pm website. oh well. but anywho, > my talk will probably be called "POE in the Real World" (i'm sure i could > come up with some clever Raven reference but its still early and the > coffee's not kicking in yet). > > so that's the story morning glory. good to know there's still life in this > list :) > > m. > > From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Tue Apr 3 14:21:39 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5B@MOSES> > > I have the lounge reserved for 7-9 pm on 3/17. Food could be brought > > in, and I can also give access to the Linux lab, if need be. > > the 17th? i was thinking the 11th. a week from this wednesday in the > evening. if that's not what we want, that's great. i'm just really > confused. It is reserved for Wednesday, 4/11, 7-9 pm (dual typos?! They say the mind goes first....) Sorry about the confusion. -- Ken From sungo at qx.net Tue Apr 3 14:34:48 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <021801c0bc6f$cab49d40$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, David Pitts wrote: > This mystry room, as Matt referred to it, is only available during business > hours - and that assumes it is not already scheduled. rocking > The Wednesday in question is a week from tomorrow, correct? yes. and i havent been pelted with fruit from the peanut gallery for the suggestion so definetely :) m. From sungo at qx.net Tue Apr 3 14:50:21 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: Official Announcement In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5A@MOSES> Message-ID: Lexington Perl Mongers - April 2001 ==================================== Evening Session: Place: Asbury College, Sigma Zeta Lounge (third floor of Hamman Ray) Wilmore, KY Date: Wednesday, April 11th Time: 7pm Speaker: Matt Cashner Topic: POE in the Wild Lunch Session: TBA Speaker and Topic will be the same as the evening session (unless people beat the speaker with things before hand) Any questions, pester Matt (eek@eekeek.org) From fprice at upended.org Tue Apr 3 17:15:27 2001 From: fprice at upended.org (Frank Price) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: [gnat@frii.com: Apocalypse 1 from Larry] Message-ID: <20010403181527.A24687@localhost.localdomain> Apologies to those who received this from another source, but I thought it was topical, interesting (,and entertaining) enough to pass on. -Frank. ----- Forwarded message from Nathan Torkington ----- Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:51:22 -0700 From: Nathan Torkington Reply-To: gnat@oreilly.com To: perl6-announce@perl.org Subject: Apocalypse 1 from Larry Larry's approaching perl6 through the Programming Perl book (the Camel). He's going chapter by chapter through the Camel, writing documents about the perl6 equivalent concepts. These missives are known as "Apocalypses", for reasons best known to Larry. :-) He's churning through the RFCs, looking through them to deeper issues. He hopes to emit Apocalypses more-or-less weekly, although some chapters have fewer RFCs and issues than others. Enjoy! Nat ----- Apocalypse 1: The Ugly, the Bad, and the Good by Larry Wall Apr. 2, 2001 Table of Contents o RFC 141: This Is The Last Major Revision o RFC 28: Perl should stay Perl o RFC 16: Keep default Perl free of constraints such as warnings and strict o RFC 73: All Perl core functions should return objects o RFC 26: Named operators versus functions People get scared when they hear the word Apocalypse, but here I mean it in the good sense: a Revealing. An Apocalypse is supposed to reveal good news to good people. (And if it also happens to reveal bad news to bad people, so be it. Just don't be bad.) What I will be revealing in these columns will be the design of Perl 6. Or more accurately, the beginnings of that design, since the design process will certainly continue after I've had my initial say in the matter. I'm not omniscient, rumors to the contrary notwithstanding. This job of playing God is a little too big for me. Nevertheless, someone has to do it, so I'll try my best to fake it. And I'll expect all of you to help me out with the process of creating history. We all have to do our bit with free will. "If you look at the history of Perl 6 up to this point, you will see why this column is subtitled The Ugly, the Bad, and the Good. The RFC process of last year was ugly, in a good sense. It was a brainstorming process, and that means it was deliberately ugly-not in the sense of incivility, since the RFC process was in fact surprisingly civil, but in the sense that there was little coherent design to the suggestions in the RFCs. Frankly, the RFCs are all over the map, without actually covering the map. There are contradictory RFCs, and there are missing RFCs. Many of the RFCs propose real problems but go off at funny angles in trying to propose solutions. Many of them patch symptoms without curing the underlying ailments. I also discovered Larry's First Law of Language Redesign: Everyone wants the colon. That was the Ugly part. The Bad part was that I was supposed to take these RFCs and produce a coherent design in two weeks. I starting out thinking I could just classify the RFCs into the good, bad, and ugly categories, but somehow most of them ended up in the ugly category, because the good ones typically had something wrong with them, and the even the bad ones typically indicated a problem that could use some thought, even if the solution was totally bogus. It is now five months later, and I've been mulling over coherence the whole time, for some definition of mulling. Many of you know what happens when the size of your Perl process exceeds the size of your physical memory-you start thrashing. Well, that's basically what happened to me. I couldn't get enough of the problem into my head at once to make good progress, and I'm not actually very good at subdividing problems. My forte is synthesis, not analysis. It didn't help that I had a number of distractions in my life, some of them self-inflicted, and some of them not. I won't go into all that. Save it for my unauthorized autobiography. But now we come to the Good part. (I hope.) After thinking lots and lots about many of the individual RFCs, and not knowing how to start thinking about them as a whole, it occurred to me (finally!) that the proper order to think about things was, more or less, the order of the chapters in the Camel Book. That is, the Camel Book's order is designed to minimize forward references in the explanation of Perl, so considering Perl 6 in roughly the same order will tend to reduce the number of things that I have to decide before I've decided them. So I've merrily classified all the RFCs by chapter number, and they look much more manageable now. (I also restructured my email so that I can look at a slice of all the messages that ever talked about a particular RFC, regardless of which mailing list the message was on. That's also a big help.) I intend to produce one Apocalypse for each Chapter, so Apocalypse 1 corresponds to Chapter 1: An Overview of Perl. (Of course, in the book, the Overview is more like a small tutorial, not really a complete analysis of the philosophical underpinnings of Perl. Nevertheless, it was a convenient place to classify those RFCs that talk about Perl 6 on that level.) So today I'm talking about the following RFCs: RFC PSA Title --- --- ----- 16 bdb Keep default Perl free of constraints such as warnings and strict. 26 ccb Named operators versus functions 28 acc Perl should stay Perl. 73 adb All Perl core functions should return objects 141 abr This Is The Last Major Revision The PSA rating stands for ``Problem, Solution, Acceptance''. The problem and solution are graded on an a-f scale, and very often you'll find I grade the problem higher than the solution. The acceptance rating is one of a Accepted wholeheartedly b Accepted with a few "buts" c Accepted with some major caveats r Rejected I might at some point add a ``d'' for Deferred, if I really think it's too soon to decide something. [22]RFC 141: This Is The Last Major Revision I was initially inclined to accept this RFC, but decided to reject it on theological grounds. In apocalyptic literature, 7 is the number representing perfection, while 6 is the number representing imperfection. In fact, we probably wouldn't end up converging on a version number of 2*PI as the RFC suggests, but rather on 6.6.6, which would be rather unfortunate. So Perl 7 will be the last major revision. In fact, Perl 7 will be so perfect, it will need no revision at all. Perl 6 is merely the prototype for Perl 7. :-) Actually, I agree with the underlying sentiment of the RFC-I only rejected it for the entertainment value. I want Perl to be a language that can continue to evolve to better fit the problems people want to solve with it. To that end, I have several design goals that will tend to be obscured if you just peruse the RFCs. First, Perl will support multiple syntaxes that map onto a single semantic model. Second, that single semantic model will in turn map to multiple platforms. Multiple syntaxes sound like an evil thing, but they're really necessary for the evolution of the language. To some extent we already have a multi-syntax model in Perl 5; every time you use a pragma or module, you are warping the language you're using. As long as it's clear from the declarations at the top of the module which version of the language you're using, this causes little problem. A particularly strong example of how support of multiple syntaxes will allow continued evolution is the migration from Perl 5 to Perl 6 itself. See the discussion of RFC 16 below. Multiple backends are a necessity of the world we live in today. Perl 6 must not be limited to running only on platforms that can be programmed in C. It must be able to run in other kinds of virtual machines, such as those supported by Java and C#. [23]RFC 28: Perl should stay Perl. It is my fond hope that those who are fond of Perl 5 will be fonder still of Perl 6. That being said, it's also my hope that Perl will continue trying to be all things to all people, because that's part of Perl too. While I accept the RFC in principle (that is, I don't intend to go raving mad), I have some major caveats with it, because I think it is needlessly fearful that any of several programming paradigms will ``take over'' the design. This is not going to happen. Part of what makes Perl Perl is that it is intentionally multi-paradigmatic. You might say that Perl allows you to be paradigmatic without being ``paradogmatic''. The essence of Perl is really context sensitivity, not just to syntactic context, but also to semantic, pragmatic, and cultural context. This overall philosophy is not going to change in Perl 6, although specific context sensitivities may come and go. Some of the current context sensitivities actually prevent us from doing a better job of it in other areas. By intentionally breaking a few things, we can make Perl understand what we mean even better than it does now. As a specific example, there are various ways things could improve if we muster the courage to break the ``weird'' relationship between @foo and $foo[]. True, we'd lose the current slice notation (it can be replaced with something better, I expect). But by consistently treating @foo as an utterance that in scalar context returns an array reference, we can make subscripts always take an array reference, which among other things fixes the botch that in Perl 5 requires us to distinguish $foo[] from $foo->[]. There will be more discussion of this in Apocalypse 2, when we'll dissect ideas like RFC 9: Highlander Variable Types. [24]RFC 16: Keep default Perl free of constraints such as warnings and strict. I am of two minds about this debate-there are good arguments for both sides. And if you read through the discussions, all those arguments were forcefully made, repeatedly. The specific discussion centered around the issue of strictness, of course, but the title of the RFC claims a more general philosophical position, and so it ended up in this Apocalypse. I'll talk about strictness and warnings in a moment, and I'll also talk about constraints in general, but I'd like to take a detour through some more esoteric design issues first. To my mind, this RFC (and the ones it is reacting against), are examples of why some language designer like me has to be the one to judge them, because they're all right, and they're all wrong, simultaneously. Many of the RFCs stake out polar positions and defend them ably, but fail to point out possible areas of compromise. To be sure, it is right for an RFC to focus in on a particular area and not try to do everything. But because all these RFCs are written with (mostly) the design of Perl 5 in mind, they cannot synthesize compromise even where the design of Perl 6 will make it mandatory. To me, one of the overriding issues is whether it's possible to translate Perl 5 code into Perl 6 code. One particular place of concern is in the many one-liners embedded in shell scripts here and there. There's no really good way to translate those invocations, so requiring a new command line switch to set ``no strict'' is not going to fly. A closely related question is how Perl is going to recognize when it has accidentally been fed Perl 5 code rather than Perl 6 code. It would be rather bad to suddenly give working code a brand new set of semantics. The answer, I believe, is that it has to be impossible by definition to accidentally feed Perl 5 code to Perl 6. That is, Perl 6 must assume it is being fed Perl 5 code until it knows otherwise. And that implies that we must have some declaration that unambiguously declares the code to be Perl 6. Now, there are right ways to do this, and wrong ways. I was peeved by the approach taken by DEC when they upgraded BASIC/PLUS to handle long variable names. Their solution was to require every program using long variable names to use the command EXTEND at the top. So henceforth and forevermore, every BASIC/PLUS program had EXTEND at the top of it. I don't know whether to call it Bad or Ugly, but it certainly wasn't Good. A better approach is to modify something that would have to be there anyway. If you go out to CPAN and look at every single module out there, what do you see at the top? Answer: a ``package'' declaration. So we break that. I hereby declare that a package declaration at the front of a file unambiguously indicates you are parsing Perl 5 code. If you want to write a Perl 6 module or class, it'll start with the keyword module or class. I don't know yet what the exact syntax of a module or a class declaration will be, but one thing I do know is that it'll set the current global namespace much like a package declaration does. Now with one fell swoop, much of the problem of programming in the large can be dealt with simply by making modules and classes default to strict, with warnings. But note that the default in the main program (and in one liners) is Perl 5, which is non-strict by definition. We still have to figure out how Perl 6 main programs should distinguish themselves from Perl 5 (with a ``use 6.0'' maybe?), and whether Perl 6 main programs should default to strict or not (I think not), but you can already see that a course instructor could threaten to flunk anyone who doesn't put ``module Main'' at the front each program, and never actually tell their pupils that they want that because it turns on strictures and warnings. Other approaches are possible, but that leads us to a deeper issue, which is the issue of project policy and site policy. People are always hankering for various files to be automatically read in from various locations, and I've always steadfastly resisted that because it makes scripts implicitly non-portable. However, explicit non-portability is okay, so there's no reason our hypothetical class instructor could not insist that programs start with a ``use Policy;'' or some such. But now again we see how this leads to an even deeper language design issue. The real problem is that it's difficult to write such a Policy module in Perl 5, because it's really not a module but a meta-module. It wants to do ``use strict'' and ``use warnings'' on behalf of the student, but it cannot do so. Therefore one thing we must implement in Perl 6 is the ability to write meta-use statements that look like ordinary use statements but turn around and declare other things on behalf of the user, for the good of the user, or of the project, or of the site. (Whatever. I'm not a policy wonk.) So whether I agree with this RFC really depends on what it means by ``default''. And like Humpty Dumpty, I'll just make it mean whatever I think is most convenient. That's context sensitivity at work. I also happen to agree with this RFC because it's my philosophical position that morality works best when chosen, not when mandated. Nevertheless, there are times when morality should be strongly suggested, and I think modules and classes are a good place for that. [25]RFC 73: All Perl core functions should return objects I'm not sure this belongs in the overview, but here it is nonetheless. In principle, I agree with the RFC. Of course, if all Perl variables are really objects underneath, this RFC is trivially true. But the real question is how interesting of an object you can return for a given level of performance. Perl 5's objects are relatively heavyweight, and if all of Perl 6's objects are as heavy, things might bog down. I'm thinking that the solution is better abstract type support for data values that happen to be represented internally by C structs. We get bogged down when we try to translate a C struct such a struct tm into an actual hash value. On the other hand, it's rather efficient to translate a struct tm to a struct tm, since it's a no-op. We can make such a struct look like a Perl object, and access it efficiently with attribute methods as if it were a ``real'' object. And the typology will (hopefully) mostly only impose an abstract overhead. The biggest overhead will likely be memory management of a struct over an int (say), and that overhead could go away much of the time with some amount of contextually aware optimization. In any event, I just want to point out that nobody should panic when we talk about making things return objects that didn't used to return them. Remember that any object can define its stringify and numify overloadings to do whatever the class likes, so old code that looks like print scalar localtime; can continue to run unchanged, even though localtime might be returning an object in scalar context. [26]RFC 26: Named operators versus functions Here's another RFC that's here because I couldn't think of a better place for it. I find this RFC somewhat confusing because the abstract seems to suggest something more radical than the description describes. If you ignore the abstract, I pretty much agree with it. It's already the case in Perl 5 that we distinguish operators from functions primarily by how they are called, not by how they are defined. One place where the RFC could be clarified is that Perl 5 distinguishes two classes of named operators: named unary operators vs list operators. They are distinguished because they have different precedence. We'll discuss precedence reform under Apocalypse 3, but I doubt we'll combine the two kinds of named operators. (As a teaser, I do see ways of simplifying Perl's precedence table from 24 levels down to 18 levels, albeit with some damage to C compatibility in the less frequently used ops. More on that later.) _________________________________________________________________ Do you begin to see why my self-appointed job here is much larger than just voting RFCs up or down? There are many big issues to face that simply aren't covered by the RFCs. We have to decide how much of our culture is just baggage to be thrown overboard, and how much of it is who we are. We have to smooth out the migration from Perl 5 to Perl 6 to prevent people from using that as an excuse not to adopt Perl 6. And we have to stare at all those deep issues until we see through them down to the underlying deeper issues, and the issues below that. And then in our depths of understanding, we have to keep Perl simple enough for anyone to pick up and start using to get their job done right now. Stay tuned for Apocalypse 2, wherein we will attempt to vary our variables, question our quotes, recontextualize our contexts, and in general set the lexical stage for everything that follows. References 22. http://dev.perl.org/rfc/141.html 23. http://dev.perl.org/rfc/28.html 24. http://dev.perl.org/rfc/16.html 25. http://dev.perl.org/rfc/73.html 26. http://dev.perl.org/rfc/26.html ----- End forwarded message ----- From wsheldahl at qx.net Tue Apr 3 22:29:22 2001 From: wsheldahl at qx.net (Wesley Sheldahl) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: ; from sungo@qx.net on Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 12:16:54 -0400 References: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D58@MOSES> Message-ID: <20010403232922.C1058@fred.qx.net> I might, as long as it's not a Wednesday evening or the week of Good Friday. Since it's in Wilmore, 7 is probably the earliest I could get down there, later would be even easier. On 2001.04.03 12:16 Matt Cashner wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > > > Fabulous. I could make an evening meeting in Wilmore a lot easier > > than a lunch meeting in Lex. Count me in for that one! > > ok. can we borrow the sigma zeta lounge for this? what sort of hoops do > we > need to jump for that? > > also, how many folks will be making the trek in for the evening meeting > if > we have one? > > m. > > -- Wes Sheldahl wsheldahl@qx.net From sungo at qx.net Wed Apr 4 00:02:10 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <20010403232922.C1058@fred.qx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Wesley Sheldahl wrote: > I might, as long as it's not a Wednesday evening or the week of Good well its both this month. grrr. sorry. m. From sungo at qx.net Wed Apr 4 11:24:37 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i'm beginning to think we might want to think about pushing the evening meeting back until the week after easter (two weeks from today). silly me forgot next week is holy week. thoughts? m. From dpitts at mk.net Wed Apr 4 08:50:31 2001 From: dpitts at mk.net (David Pitts) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting References: Message-ID: <007301c0bd0e$37691800$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Concerning the Lunch/Mid-Day meeting, have we come to a consensus of time? Should I try to get the room for Lunch (12-1) or (12-1:30) or should I go for something like 1:00-3:00? Thanks, David Pitts http://www.dpitts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Cashner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: LPM: Official Announcement > Lexington Perl Mongers - April 2001 > ==================================== > Evening Session: > Place: Asbury College, Sigma Zeta Lounge (third floor of Hamman Ray) > Wilmore, KY > > Date: Wednesday, April 11th > Time: 7pm > > Speaker: Matt Cashner > Topic: POE in the Wild > > Lunch Session: > TBA > Speaker and Topic will be the same as the evening session (unless > people beat the speaker with things before hand) > > Any questions, pester Matt (eek@eekeek.org) > > > From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Wed Apr 4 16:28:16 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5C@MOSES> > i'm beginning to think we might want to think about pushing > the evening > meeting back until the week after easter (two weeks from > today). silly me > forgot next week is holy week. thoughts? Considering that I am and will be insanely busy for both, it makes little difference to me. I can move the reservations with no hassle. -- Ken Rietz From sungo at qx.net Wed Apr 4 16:55:12 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5C@MOSES> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > Considering that I am and will be insanely busy for both, it > makes little difference to me. I can move the reservations with > no hassle. lets go ahead and move it then. um, probably wednesday is a bad day for most of us high church kinda folks. thursday night anyone? 7pm thursday April 19th? m. From sungo at qx.net Wed Apr 4 16:56:18 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting In-Reply-To: <007301c0bd0e$37691800$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, David Pitts wrote: > Concerning the Lunch/Mid-Day meeting, have we come to a consensus of time? > Should I try to get the room for Lunch (12-1) or (12-1:30) or should I go > for something like 1:00-3:00? if no one has any thoughts (give it a day :) lets try and get 1-3. not that i'll babble that long but its nice to play it safe on questions and people wandering in and what not. we tend to operate on Reservation Time sometimes :) m. From jgibson at lexmark.com Thu Apr 5 09:54:45 2001 From: jgibson at lexmark.com (John Gibson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting In-Reply-To: <007301c0bd0e$37691800$7801a8c0@adverb.com>; from dpitts%mk.net@interlock.lexmark.com on Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 09:50:31AM -0400 References: <007301c0bd0e$37691800$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: <200104051454.KAA03727@interlock2.lexmark.com> I think most would prefer a 1-3 because they may just take an early day off from work. On 09:50, 04/04/01, David Pitts said: > Concerning the Lunch/Mid-Day meeting, have we come to a consensus of time? > Should I try to get the room for Lunch (12-1) or (12-1:30) or should I go > for something like 1:00-3:00? > > Thanks, > > David Pitts > http://www.dpitts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Cashner" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 3:50 PM > Subject: LPM: Official Announcement > > > > Lexington Perl Mongers - April 2001 > > ==================================== > > Evening Session: > > Place: Asbury College, Sigma Zeta Lounge (third floor of Hamman Ray) > > Wilmore, KY > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 11th > > Time: 7pm > > > > Speaker: Matt Cashner > > Topic: POE in the Wild > > > > Lunch Session: > > TBA > > Speaker and Topic will be the same as the evening session (unless > > people beat the speaker with things before hand) > > > > Any questions, pester Matt (eek@eekeek.org) > > > > > > > -- John Gibson jgibson@lexmark.com When I become an Evil Overlord: When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll shoot him, and then say "No". From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Thu Apr 5 10:07:51 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5D@MOSES> > > Considering that I am and will be insanely busy for both, it > > makes little difference to me. I can move the reservations with > > no hassle. > > lets go ahead and move it then. um, probably wednesday is a > bad day for > most of us high church kinda folks. thursday night anyone? > 7pm thursday > April 19th? Thursday nights are out for all the TM3 gang. Scheduling is just so much fun.... -- Ken From rbowen at rcbowen.com Thu Apr 5 10:13:35 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: Administrivia Message-ID: <3ACC8B9F.C78C0DD0@rcbowen.com> Just a request, if I may. If any of you folks change jobs, graduate, ditch an email address, or die, please unsubscribe from the list before doing so. Every message to the list these days generates at least 4 undeliverable messages, from people that have done one of the above. And the list management web site has been down until this morning, so I could not clean it up. Thanks for your consideration on this matter. -- Rich Bowen Come see me at Apachecon! -- http://www.apachecon.com/ From sungo at qx.net Thu Apr 5 10:25:36 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D5D@MOSES> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > Thursday nights are out for all the TM3 gang. Scheduling is just so > much fun.... then someone pick a better night. all evenings (save wed and saturday) are fine with me. i'd like to say that friday nights are bad, but lets face it, i have no life :) m. From Andrew at AndrewKMitchell.com Thu Apr 5 11:40:06 2001 From: Andrew at AndrewKMitchell.com (Andrew Kenton Mitchell) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. References: Message-ID: <000b01c0bdef$12a96a60$0300a8c0@mscorp.orrg> I agree, friday nights. But I have no life either. I could never get off for a meeting during the day. Ilike nights better. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Cashner" To: Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: RE: LPM: this month. > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > > > Thursday nights are out for all the TM3 gang. Scheduling is just so > > much fun.... > > then someone pick a better night. all evenings (save wed and saturday) are > fine with me. i'd like to say that friday nights are bad, but lets face > it, i have no life :) > > m. > > From janine at emazing.com Thu Apr 5 12:00:45 2001 From: janine at emazing.com (Janine) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: Administrivia In-Reply-To: <3ACC8B9F.C78C0DD0@rcbowen.com> Message-ID: Famous last words: "Take...me...off...the...LPM...mailing list...." Janine > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Rich Bowen > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:14 AM > To: Lexington Perl Mongers > Subject: LPM: Administrivia > > > Just a request, if I may. If any of you folks change jobs, graduate, > ditch an email address, or die, please unsubscribe from the > list before > doing so. Every message to the list these days generates at least 4 > undeliverable messages, from people that have done one of the > above. And > the list management web site has been down until this morning, so I > could not clean it up. > > Thanks for your consideration on this matter. > > -- > Rich Bowen > Come see me at Apachecon! -- http://www.apachecon.com/ > > From janine at emazing.com Thu Apr 5 12:00:43 2001 From: janine at emazing.com (Janine) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <000b01c0bdef$12a96a60$0300a8c0@mscorp.orrg> Message-ID: Friday afternoons or evenings would be great for me. :-) Janine > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Andrew Kenton > Mitchell > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:40 PM > To: lexington-pm-list@happyfunball.pm.org > Subject: Re: LPM: this month. > > > I agree, friday nights. But I have no life either. > I could never get off for a meeting during the day. > Ilike nights better. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Cashner" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:25 AM > Subject: RE: LPM: this month. > > > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > > > > > Thursday nights are out for all the TM3 gang. Scheduling > is just so > > > much fun.... > > > > then someone pick a better night. all evenings (save wed > and saturday) are > > fine with me. i'd like to say that friday nights are bad, > but lets face > > it, i have no life :) > > > > m. > > > > > > From sungo at qx.net Thu Apr 5 13:23:38 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:04 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ok. so lets try this. fri April 20th, 2001 7-9pm, Wilmore.pm (a subsidiary of Lex.pm) :) sound good? doc, can we get sz then? m. From sungo at qx.net Thu Apr 5 17:30:37 2001 From: sungo at qx.net (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: for everyone who probably doesnt care, pm.org has been having major issues. heaven only knows when this nonsense will end. if you have a problem with a pm.org site, or email, or whatever, let me know and i'll harass the admin. m. From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Thu Apr 5 13:21:21 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D60@MOSES> > > Thursday nights are out for all the TM3 gang. Scheduling is just so > > much fun.... > > then someone pick a better night. all evenings (save wed and > saturday) are > fine with me. i'd like to say that friday nights are bad, but > lets face > it, i have no life :) You have no life? I have a hand-optimized version of it. Blazing fast, even on a slow PC. All you have to do is ask. :-) Fridays would work for me, except for the first Fridays of a school month. Tomorrow is therefore not good. Next Friday is Good Friday and highly suboptimal. Either of the remaining ones would be fine. In fact, the last Friday coincides with Ichthus, and I'd enjoy any reason to get out of here for that. Just my thoughts. -- Ken From eek at eekeek.org Thu Apr 5 19:13:45 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D60@MOSES> Message-ID: ok. lets arrange for the 20th (a week from tomorrow). 7pm-9pm i'll put up an announcement on the wilmore.pm site with a mapquest map for the wilmore-impaired. m. From wsheldahl at qx.net Thu Apr 5 19:22:09 2001 From: wsheldahl at qx.net (Wesley Sheldahl) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: ; from sungo@qx.net on Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 12:24:37 -0400 References: Message-ID: <20010405202209.G1214@fred.qx.net> capital suggestion. A non-Wednesday would be good for me too. (That's why I suggested not the week of Great and Holy Friday, btw.) On 2001.04.04 12:24 Matt Cashner wrote: > > i'm beginning to think we might want to think about pushing the evening > meeting back until the week after easter (two weeks from today). silly me > forgot next week is holy week. thoughts? > > m. > > -- Wes Sheldahl wsheldahl@qx.net From eek at eekeek.org Mon Apr 9 08:48:06 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting In-Reply-To: <007301c0bd0e$37691800$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, David Pitts wrote: > Concerning the Lunch/Mid-Day meeting, have we come to a consensus of time? > Should I try to get the room for Lunch (12-1) or (12-1:30) or should I go > for something like 1:00-3:00? hey david, did we get the room or not? m. From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Mon Apr 9 13:04:22 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D61@MOSES> > ok. so lets try this. fri April 20th, 2001 7-9pm, Wilmore.pm > (a subsidiary > of Lex.pm) :) > > sound good? doc, can we get sz then? Done. -- Ken From eek at eekeek.org Tue Apr 10 09:07:01 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Matt Cashner wrote: > hey david, did we get the room or not? since all i'm getting is a blank stare, i'm going to have to assume we didnt get the room for tomorrow and we'll have to reschedule. evening session is still on, however. m. From gcasillo at ket.org Tue Apr 10 11:55:51 2001 From: gcasillo at ket.org (Gregg Casillo) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: mod_perl and virtual hosts on Apache References: <3A35835D.154DB743@rcbowen.com> Message-ID: <3AD33B17.20903@ket.org> I have an installation of Apache and mod_perl running two virtual hosts for two domains. Let's call them foo.com and bar.com. I write and configure a script that I want to print something out for the location "/test." I want this script to run only for "foo.com/test" and not "bar.com/test". Currently, both virtual hosts can run the script. Is there a way to restrict a mod_perl script from running on all my virtual hosts, and if so how? Gregg Casillo From rbowen at rcbowen.com Tue Apr 10 12:09:35 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: mod_perl and virtual hosts on Apache References: <3A35835D.154DB743@rcbowen.com> <3AD33B17.20903@ket.org> Message-ID: <3AD33E4F.8FD48E82@rcbowen.com> Gregg Casillo wrote: > > I have an installation of Apache and mod_perl running two virtual hosts > for two domains. Let's call them foo.com and bar.com. I write and > configure a script that I want to print something out for the location > "/test." I want this script to run only for "foo.com/test" and not > "bar.com/test". Currently, both virtual hosts can run the script. Is > there a way to restrict a mod_perl script from running on all my virtual > hosts, and if so how? Put the section inside the container, and it will be limited to just that VirtualHost. If you're already doing that, then I'd say this is a bug. What version of Apache are you running? By the way, with Apache 2.0, you will be able to do really cool stuff like have one Apache child process handling each vhosts - they will be multithreaded processes - and you'll be able to specify which modules each child will be running. Should be pretty cool. I'm running it on my laptop, but have not had time to play with things like that yet. -- Rich Bowen Have trouble remembering things? - http://idforgetmyhead.com/ From dpitts at mk.net Tue Apr 10 12:19:03 2001 From: dpitts at mk.net (David Pitts) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting References: Message-ID: <005401c0c1e2$57bc45e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Hi, I have been away from e-mail for a few days, and am trying to catch up. To answer Matt's question, no, I cannot get the room for tomorrow. Would you like me to try for next week? I can try for a Wednesday or a Friday afternoon. I think I remember someone saying that Friday afternoon from 1:00 to 3:00 would be good. Do I remember that correctly and would it be good? Thanks, David Pitts http://www.dpitts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Cashner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: Re: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting > On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Matt Cashner wrote: > > > hey david, did we get the room or not? > > since all i'm getting is a blank stare, i'm going to have to assume we > didnt get the room for tomorrow and we'll have to reschedule. evening > session is still on, however. > > m. > > From jgibson at lexmark.com Tue Apr 10 12:43:27 2001 From: jgibson at lexmark.com (John Gibson) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting In-Reply-To: <005401c0c1e2$57bc45e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com>; from dpitts%mk.net@interlock.lexmark.com on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:19:03PM -0400 References: <005401c0c1e2$57bc45e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: <200104101743.NAA15262@interlock2.lexmark.com> Yes I always need a reason to leave work early on Friday... :-) On 13:19, 04/10/01, David Pitts said: > Hi, > I have been away from e-mail for a few days, and am trying to catch up. To > answer Matt's question, no, I cannot get the room for tomorrow. Would you > like me to try for next week? I can try for a Wednesday or a Friday > afternoon. I think I remember someone saying that Friday afternoon from > 1:00 to 3:00 would be good. Do I remember that correctly and would it be > good? > > Thanks, > > David Pitts > http://www.dpitts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Cashner" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 10:07 AM > Subject: Re: LPM: Lunch/mid-day meeting > > > > On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Matt Cashner wrote: > > > > > hey david, did we get the room or not? > > > > since all i'm getting is a blank stare, i'm going to have to assume we > > didnt get the room for tomorrow and we'll have to reschedule. evening > > session is still on, however. > > > > m. > > > > > -- John Gibson jgibson@lexmark.com Pinky, are you pondering what I am pondering? I think so Brain, but it's a miracle this one grew back. From wsheldahl at qx.net Wed Apr 11 05:57:32 2001 From: wsheldahl at qx.net (Wesley Sheldahl) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D61@MOSES>; from ken.rietz@asbury.edu on Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 14:04:22 -0400 References: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D61@MOSES> Message-ID: <20010411065731.A347@fred.qx.net> Would that be the same sigma-zeta lounge on the third floor of Hammond-Ray? On 2001.04.09 14:04 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > > > ok. so lets try this. fri April 20th, 2001 7-9pm, Wilmore.pm > > (a subsidiary > > of Lex.pm) :) > > > > sound good? doc, can we get sz then? > > Done. > > -- Ken > -- Wes Sheldahl wsheldahl@qx.net From eek at eekeek.org Wed Apr 11 07:37:56 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: this month. In-Reply-To: <20010411065731.A347@fred.qx.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Wesley Sheldahl wrote: > Would that be the same sigma-zeta lounge on the third floor of Hammond-Ray? yes. yes it would. From gcasillo at ket.org Wed Apr 11 13:25:31 2001 From: gcasillo at ket.org (Gregg Casillo) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason, or HTML::Template? Message-ID: <3AD4A19B.8040600@ket.org> Anybody have experience using these with mod_perl and if so what can you say about them? Gregg Casillo From rbowen at rcbowen.com Tue Apr 17 10:44:23 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (rbowen@rcbowen.com) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Room for Friday Message-ID: <200104171544.f3HFiQL12499@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> So, did we actually get a room for Friday or not? David? From dpitts at mk.net Tue Apr 17 10:58:50 2001 From: dpitts at mk.net (David Pitts) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Re: Room for Friday References: <200104171544.f3HFiQL12499@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c0c757$4bb047e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> I was at the Chamber yesterday afternoon and talked to them. Unfortunately, this friday from 1:00 - 3:00 is booked. I did, however, schedule the LPC room for next Friday, April 27th from 12:30 - 3:00. (I thought we might need the half hour at the beginning for people to arrive, get things set up, etc.) Will this work? Thanks, David Pitts http://www.dpitts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "mongers" Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: LPM: Room for Friday > So, did we actually get a room for Friday or not? David? > > > From eek at eekeek.org Tue Apr 17 11:07:17 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Re: Room for Friday In-Reply-To: <00cd01c0c757$4bb047e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, David Pitts wrote: > I was at the Chamber yesterday afternoon and talked to them. Unfortunately, > this friday from 1:00 - 3:00 is booked. I did, however, schedule the LPC > room for next Friday, April 27th from 12:30 - 3:00. (I thought we might > need the half hour at the beginning for people to arrive, get things set up, > etc.) well we're only a month behind schedule. can anyone get us a room for this friday? hey databeam people? can we use one of your conference rooms? i'd really rather do my talk this week while its on my brane. -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From eek at eekeek.org Thu Apr 19 12:50:29 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: tomorrow night Message-ID: so who all's coming tomorow? -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From repett0 at sweb.uky.edu Thu Apr 19 13:01:26 2001 From: repett0 at sweb.uky.edu (Ronald Edward Petty) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: contract work/full time work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anyone have anything laying around, I graduate in May and still no full time job, Im actually looking for contract work, so I can focus on starting a company. Ron From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Thu Apr 19 13:31:29 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: tomorrow night Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D69@MOSES> > so who all's coming tomorow? > When? I thought it was an afternoon meeting, not night. -- Ken From eek at eekeek.org Thu Apr 19 13:49:03 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D69@MOSES> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > When? I thought it was an afternoon meeting, not night. you reserved sz for 7-9pm hence, evening. -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From ken.rietz at asbury.edu Thu Apr 19 14:12:52 2001 From: ken.rietz at asbury.edu (ken.rietz@asbury.edu) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: tomorrow night Message-ID: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D6A@MOSES> > On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > > > When? I thought it was an afternoon meeting, not night. > > you reserved sz for 7-9pm hence, evening. Agh. Yes, it is reserved for tonorrow night. The LPM thing distracted me into thinking you were talking Lex, not Wilmore. Maybe you could drum up some business by saying (again) what you are going to talk about. -- Ken From eek at eekeek.org Thu Apr 19 14:28:49 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: tomorrow night In-Reply-To: <23CBF54C1C42D411B2CA0004ACB8555F117D6A@MOSES> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 ken.rietz@asbury.edu wrote: > Maybe you could drum up some business by saying (again) what you > are going to talk about. POE lots of POE -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From eek at eekeek.org Fri Apr 20 18:04:10 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: tomorrow night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Matt Cashner wrote: well things went well tonight. i obviously underestimated my crowd a bit but things went well :) i'll be posting notes and other niftiness to the wilmore.pm.org site as soon as wayne gets around to actually setting it back up. grumble grumble. -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From eek at eekeek.org Sun Apr 22 15:16:29 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: wilmore.pm web site Message-ID: http://wilmore.pm.org is now up and active. notes from this months meeting is up as well. this is a sneak peak of lexpm this month tho a lot more will be added to the notes and presentation. anywho, there it is. wilmore.pm, lets think about next month here soon too and show lex.pm how these things are done :) -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From eek at eekeek.org Thu Apr 26 20:57:57 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: random thought Message-ID: see, we're supposed to have pm tommorrow. but i dont know if we have a room. i dont know where said room is. and in fact no one does. so i'm guessing we're not having this. well i'm glad wilmore.pm met this month so i didnt prepare yet another talk for nothing. grrr. -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From eek at eekeek.org Thu Apr 26 21:10:53 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: random thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Matt Cashner wrote: > room. i dont know where said room is. and in fact no one does. so i'm > guessing we're not having this. ok. correction. we know when. not where. or if anyone is showing up. how can it be friday already? crimeny. -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From rbowen at rcbowen.com Thu Apr 26 21:36:46 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: random thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200104270236.f3R2ams14098@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:10:53 -0400 (EDT), Matt Cashner said: > On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Matt Cashner wrote: > > > room. i dont know where said room is. and in fact no one does. so i'm > > guessing we're not having this. > > ok. correction. we know when. not where. or if anyone is showing up. > how can it be friday already? crimeny. Seems that if we know not where, then we probably know not if. If we have a where, then I expect I'll be there. This was going to be lunchtime, right? I suppose I should mention this to the boss ... -- In wine there is truth (In vino veritas). -- Pliny From dpitts at mk.net Fri Apr 27 01:28:42 2001 From: dpitts at mk.net (David Pitts) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: LPM this month.... References: Message-ID: <002901c0cee3$4df9f9e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Ummm... I sent out location and time to the list on the 17th; but here it is again. Location: Lexington Chamber of Commerce - LPC Conference room Time: reserved from 12:30 - 3:00; assumed that the meeting was 1:00 - 3:00 Thanks, David Pitts http://www.dpitts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Cashner" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 9:57 PM Subject: LPM: random thought > see, we're supposed to have pm tommorrow. but i dont know if we have a > room. i dont know where said room is. and in fact no one does. so i'm > guessing we're not having this. > > well i'm glad wilmore.pm met this month so i didnt prepare yet another > talk for nothing. grrr. > > > -------- > Matt Cashner > Web Applications Developer > The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) > eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum > > > From dpitts at mk.net Fri Apr 27 01:32:22 2001 From: dpitts at mk.net (David Pitts) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Re: LPM this month.... References: <002901c0cee3$4df9f9e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: <005901c0cee3$d0f6b0e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> By the way, this is on the corner of High and Main - it is a shiny mirrored building down town lexington - three stories. LPC room is just outside the elevator, and the enterenance is facing toward main street (not facing into Lex. Chamber of Commerce). Clear as mud?? Thanks, David Pitts http://www.dpitts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Pitts" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 2:28 AM Subject: LPM: LPM this month.... > Ummm... I sent out location and time to the list on the 17th; but here it is > again. > > Location: Lexington Chamber of Commerce - LPC Conference room > Time: reserved from 12:30 - 3:00; assumed that the meeting was 1:00 - 3:00 > > > Thanks, > > David Pitts > http://www.dpitts.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Cashner" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 9:57 PM > Subject: LPM: random thought > > > > see, we're supposed to have pm tommorrow. but i dont know if we have a > > room. i dont know where said room is. and in fact no one does. so i'm > > guessing we're not having this. > > > > well i'm glad wilmore.pm met this month so i didnt prepare yet another > > talk for nothing. grrr. > > > > > > -------- > > Matt Cashner > > Web Applications Developer > > The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) > > eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum > > > > > > > > > From rbowen at rcbowen.com Fri Apr 27 05:47:41 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Re: LPM this month.... In-Reply-To: <005901c0cee3$d0f6b0e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> References: <002901c0cee3$4df9f9e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> <005901c0cee3$d0f6b0e0$7801a8c0@adverb.com> Message-ID: <200104271047.f3RAlip14430@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 02:32:22 -0400, David Pitts said: > By the way, this is on the corner of High and Main - it is a shiny mirrored > building down town lexington - three stories. LPC room is just outside the > elevator, and the enterenance is facing toward main street (not facing into > Lex. Chamber of Commerce). Clear as mud?? Oh, that's where it is. Cool. Anyone else going to be there? Anyone? Anyone? -- Author - Apache Server Unleashed - http://www.apacheunleashed.com/ From rbowen at rcbowen.com Fri Apr 27 06:15:39 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: The sucky web site Message-ID: <200104271115.f3RBFgp14520@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> If any of you folks have a design skill, and any available tuits, I would be glad to turn over management of the LPM web site to you. I have neither, and the web site persists in sucking and giving wrong information. Each month I have very good intentions of updating it, but it never happens. I suppose I should do some CGI thingy - I don't think mod_perl is running out there - to make it a lot simpler. But when the end of the day arrives, and I still have 58 things on my ToDo list, the LPM web site just doesn't bubble to the top of the list. Primarily because my list is alphabetized, and all that Apache crap seems to be on top ... Rich -- As we trace our own few circles around the sun We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999) From rbowen at rcbowen.com Fri Apr 27 06:22:40 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Lookahead assertions Message-ID: <200104271122.f3RBMjp14560@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Can someone adequately explain to me the lookahead assertion in regex? If that is indeed what they are called - the ?: notation on the beginning of a regex. I'm working on the reefknot code (http://www.reefknot.org/) and there are a number of regex that have this in them, aren't working the way that I expect them to, and I can't really figure out what's going on. Examples would be nice too. I'll post the offending code if you like, but it's kinda gruesome, and I'm not sure if it serves to illustrate or muddy. -- As we trace our own few circles around the sun We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999) From eek at eekeek.org Fri Apr 27 07:28:28 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Lookahead assertions In-Reply-To: <200104271122.f3RBMjp14560@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Message-ID: On 27 Apr 2001, Rich Bowen wrote: > Can someone adequately explain to me the lookahead assertion in regex? If that > is indeed what they are called - the ?: notation on the beginning of a regex. ?: is not lookahead. note man perlre line 491 This is for clustering, not capturing; it groups subexpressions like "()", but doesn't make back- references as "()" does. if you group something like /(?:foo|bar)/ you can form a group without saving anything into $1, $2, etc. zerowidth positive lookahed is (?=pattern) zerowidth negative lookahead is (?!pattern) lookbehinds use ?< with = and ! that make sense? -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From hempy at ket.org Fri Apr 27 09:46:18 2001 From: hempy at ket.org (David Hempy) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: The sucky web site In-Reply-To: <200104271115.f3RBFgp14520@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010427104051.037204a0@mail.ket.org> I'm no designer (and my pages show it!) but I can update meeting info. If it will be of service, I will snarf meeting announcements from the list and post them on the site. I don't expect I'll be at too many of the meetings, at least for the next few months, but I'll post notes and such that people come up with. Just put a "Please post on the web site" message at the TOP of your message and I'll be happy to take care of it, once I figger out how. Happy to do what I can. -dave At 07:15 AM 4/27/2001 -0400, you wrote: >If any of you folks have a design skill, and any available tuits, I would be >glad to turn over management of the LPM web site to you. I have neither, and >the web site persists in sucking and giving wrong information. Each month I >have very good intentions of updating it, but it never happens. I suppose I >should do some CGI thingy - I don't think mod_perl is running out there - to >make it a lot simpler. But when the end of the day arrives, and I still >have 58 >things on my ToDo list, the LPM web site just doesn't bubble to the top of the >list. > >Primarily because my list is alphabetized, and all that Apache crap seems >to be >on top ... > >Rich >-- >As we trace our own few circles around the sun >We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one > Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999) -- David Hempy Internet Database Administrator Kentucky Educational Television - Distance Learning Division -- (859)258-7164 -- (800)333-9764 From hempy at ket.org Fri Apr 27 09:48:45 2001 From: hempy at ket.org (David Hempy) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: PerlEx In-Reply-To: References: <200104271122.f3RBMjp14560@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010427104719.03720990@mail.ket.org> BTW, installed PerlEx last night (NT's answer to mod_perl), and it looks extremely promising! Haven't done much with it yet, but the supplied benchmarks look pretty impressive: http://edit-www.ket.org/webtools/testpad/dave/cgi-benchmark/default.htm ...or for a head-to-head race (if not a bit jumbled) try: http://edit-www.ket.org/webtools/testpad/dave/cgi-benchmark/race.htm I'll post more later as I actually start using it. I might even be willing to speak on it if there is interest. -dave -- David Hempy Internet Database Administrator Kentucky Educational Television - Distance Learning Division -- (859)258-7164 -- (800)333-9764 From eek at eekeek.org Fri Apr 27 10:40:34 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: today Message-ID: PLEASE TO BE SAYINK IF YOU ARE COMINK THANKS YOU ------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From rbowen at rcbowen.com Fri Apr 27 10:44:03 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Hey! You out there! Hello? Message-ID: <200104271544.f3RFi6p14890@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Folks. Is *anyone* coming? I don't think it makes much sense for the two of us from Wilmore to drive to Lexington to find nobody there. Please let us know in the next 20 minutes if you're coming. -- As we trace our own few circles around the sun We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999) From Alan_May at databeam.com Fri Apr 27 10:47:20 2001 From: Alan_May at databeam.com (Alan_May@databeam.com) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: Hey! You out there! Hello? Message-ID: <85256A3B.0056B7CF.00@lexsmtp01.databeam.com> Rich, i'll be continuing my perfect streak of not having made a single meeting yet. Things are a little hot at DataBeam right now to be taking that big a chunk out of my day. Alan |--------+-----------------------> | | "Rich Bowen" | | | | | | | | | 04/27/2001 | | | 11:44 AM | | | Please | | | respond to | | | lexington-pm-| | | list | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "mongers" | | cc: (bcc: Alan May/LEX/Lotus) | | Subject: LPM: Hey! You out there! Hello? | >-----------------------------------------------------------------------| Folks. Is *anyone* coming? I don't think it makes much sense for the two of us from Wilmore to drive to Lexington to find nobody there. Please let us know in the next 20 minutes if you're coming. -- As we trace our own few circles around the sun We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999) From janine at emazing.com Fri Apr 27 10:57:11 2001 From: janine at emazing.com (Janine) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: Hey! You out there! Hello? In-Reply-To: <200104271544.f3RFi6p14890@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Message-ID: I can't make it, unless: A. Someone invents a time machine and drops by to pick me up, B. The discussion will involve safe ways to start a child process from a cgi, not wait for it to finish, but also not create zombies, and C. Punch and pie will be served. Sorry, guys. The bigshots restructured the development teams, and now I'm working on Important Things That Matter instead of Piddling Things Of Small Consequence. I'll be able to make the June meeting. Janine > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org > [mailto:owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Rich Bowen > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:44 AM > To: mongers > Subject: LPM: Hey! You out there! Hello? > > > Folks. Is *anyone* coming? I don't think it makes much sense > for the two of us > from Wilmore to drive to Lexington to find nobody there. > Please let us know in > the next 20 minutes if you're coming. > > -- > As we trace our own few circles around the sun > We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one > Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999) > > > > From rbowen at rcbowen.com Fri Apr 27 10:59:27 2001 From: rbowen at rcbowen.com (Rich Bowen) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: Hey! You out there! Hello? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200104271559.f3RFxUp14924@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:57:11 -0400, Janine said: > I can't make it, unless: > > A. Someone invents a time machine and drops by to pick me up, > > B. The discussion will involve safe ways to start a child process from > a cgi, not wait for it to finish, but also not create zombies, and That one I can actually help you with, but it might have to wait, since I don't remember immediately, and I'd have to figure it out again. > C. Punch and pie will be served. I'd go get a pie, but I still don't have the time machine. Sorry. -- It's gonna be alright, It's almost midnight, And I've got two more bottles of wine. From sml at zfx.com Fri Apr 27 11:06:04 2001 From: sml at zfx.com (Steve Lane) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: Hey! You out there! Hello? References: Message-ID: <3AE998EC.93D5D2E7@zfx.com> Janine wrote: > B. The discussion will involve safe ways to start a child process from > a cgi, not wait for it to finish, but also not create zombies, and i can probably help with this. can you give a test case, or what you have so far? the "variables" with this are: - which webserver - close STDOUT? - fork && exec or system "cmd&"? - $SIG{CHLD}? but i'll need to see a code example before i can recommend anything concrete. -- Steve Lane From eek at eekeek.org Fri Apr 27 14:00:33 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: well that was fun. Message-ID: seeing as no one who hasnt heard me prattle about the topic before actually showed up, we went and got some lunch. a good time was had by all. ok, so next time, we need to get directions and things posted sometime before 10 minutes before the meeting so every one can arrange with phbs to be there. there has been very disappointing attendence over the last 6 months or so, partly due to not having any idea when/where/if we're meeting until the day before. so anywho, whoever is managing the site these days, i can give you notes that we would have talked about had anyone shown up, for release on the lexpm site. or you can hork them from wilmore.pm.org. same notes. -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum From hempy at ket.org Fri Apr 27 14:33:50 2001 From: hempy at ket.org (David Hempy) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: well that was fun. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010427153256.03247e28@mail.ket.org> At 03:00 PM 4/27/2001 -0400, you wrote: >seeing as no one who hasnt heard me prattle about the topic before >actually showed up, we went and got some lunch. a good time was had by >all. ok, so next time, we need to get directions and things posted >sometime before 10 minutes before the meeting so every one can arrange >with phbs to be there. there has been very disappointing attendence over >the last 6 months or so, partly due to not having any idea when/where/if >we're meeting until the day before. > >so anywho, whoever is managing the site these days, i can give you notes >that we would have talked about had anyone shown up, for release on the >lexpm site. or you can hork them from wilmore.pm.org. same notes. Done! (I posted the meeting time and location, as well. Now people can regret not making it. ;-) -dave -- David Hempy Internet Database Administrator Kentucky Educational Television - Distance Learning Division -- (859)258-7164 -- (800)333-9764 From wsheldahl at qx.net Sat Apr 28 13:36:00 2001 From: wsheldahl at qx.net (Wesley Sheldahl) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: Hey! You out there! Hello? In-Reply-To: ; from janine@emazing.com on Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 11:57:11 -0400 References: <200104271544.f3RFi6p14890@rhiannon.rcbowen.com> Message-ID: <20010428143600.A19969@fred.qx.net> B was actually the topic of Matt's presentation. I think his notes are up on lexington.pm.org. See also poe.perl.org. On 2001.04.27 11:57 Janine wrote: > I can't make it, unless: > > A. Someone invents a time machine and drops by to pick me up, > > B. The discussion will involve safe ways to start a child process from > a cgi, not wait for it to finish, but also not create zombies, and > > C. Punch and pie will be served. > > Sorry, guys. The bigshots restructured the development teams, and now > I'm working on Important Things That Matter instead of Piddling Things > Of Small Consequence. I'll be able to make the June meeting. > > Janine > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org > > [mailto:owner-lexington-pm-list@pm.org]On Behalf Of Rich Bowen > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:44 AM > > To: mongers > > Subject: LPM: Hey! You out there! Hello? > > > > > > Folks. Is *anyone* coming? I don't think it makes much sense > > for the two of us > > from Wilmore to drive to Lexington to find nobody there. > > Please let us know in > > the next 20 minutes if you're coming. > > > > -- > > As we trace our own few circles around the sun > > We get it backwards and our seven years go by like one > > Dog Years (Rush - Test for Echo - 1999) > > > > > > > > > > -- Wes Sheldahl wsheldahl@qx.net From eek at eekeek.org Sat Apr 28 15:23:02 2001 From: eek at eekeek.org (Matt Cashner) Date: Thu Aug 5 00:06:05 2004 Subject: LPM: RE: Hey! You out there! Hello? In-Reply-To: <20010428143600.A19969@fred.qx.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Wesley Sheldahl wrote: > B was actually the topic of Matt's presentation. I think his notes are up > on lexington.pm.org. See also poe.perl.org. um, no it wasnt. i said nada about cgi. using poe in a cgi is, um, retarded. if you want to tell some server to do something, i obviously would suggest poe for the server. but in a cgi? um, no. me thinks you misunderstood. -------- Matt Cashner Web Applications Developer The Creative Group (http://www.cre8tivegroup.com) eek@eekeek.org | Codito, ergo sum