Thanks for the link to to the Moose book - greatly appreciated!<div><br></div><div>Your case for 'Perl is dead. Long live Perl.' had me thinking.</div><div>As for old perl vs. new perl (or Modern) I think we may be so tied up in OO programming that we tend to think in terms of encapsulation rather than evolution. I don't believe that there is an old perl vs new perl - only Perl with a larger toolkit than we've ever had before. TMTOWTDI.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Let's face it, the X-MEN system of programming really doesn't make sense. Though programmers (and users in general for that matter) believe that new developments occur spontaneously and happen instantly (ironically at the time they discover those changes) in actuality a Darwinian process made them happen. Most code is thrown away and new evolutions take their place.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If we are to be honest, we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Looking down at them and ridiculing them, only hinders progress. Without their contributions we wouldn't be where are are today. We should be spending our time looking up and asking ourselves who we are going to carry going forward.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/3/27 hippsta <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:the.hippsta@gmail.com">the.hippsta@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
lol,<br><br>Even though I was mentored in perl by one of the "old guard," (and I mean not even OO, old) -- I'd like to think that I'm open minded enough to embrace new technologies, and I'm fine with devoting time to Moose, etc during meetings, but:<div class="im">
<br>
<br>"I don't think Perl matters anymore, but Moose sure as hell does. Perl without Moose is like Perl. Dead."<br><br></div>I don't fully agree with this, (and perhaps it's because I hail from the system administration school of perl,) but not for the reason you're thinking.<div class="im">
<br>
<br>"Perl still runs X percent of the internet (like 70-80 iirc?) and until *that* changes I won't notice."<br></div>-- That's old guard perl, from the "old kingdom" ;)<br><br>... also there are a *ton* of linux system packages that are written as such, as well.<br>
<br>I'm not at all trying to be combative, but rather stress that Old Perl is still very much with us; while playing a lil' devils advocate.<br><br>;)<br><br>C.<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 3:44 PM, J. Shirley <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jshirley@gmail.com" target="_blank">jshirley@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">I just now read the actual thread.<div><br></div><div>Moose Book: <a href="http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/moose/5187831" target="_blank">http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/moose/5187831</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Stevan would very likely send a copy if he has one laying around… which I would expect he does. This is, from what I know, self-published.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm also not a fan of the old guard of the Perl world. Moose matters and while Randall is a good guy (I knew him in Portland, been on FLOSS with him, etc) he's not intrinsic to the new Perl hotness.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm very opinionated on this. I don't think Perl matters anymore, but Moose sure as hell does. Perl without Moose is like Perl. Dead.</div><div><br></div><div>(Yes, that is intentional hyperbole. I'm writing this mostly being snarky)</div>
<div><div></div><div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Mar 26, 2011, at 1:21 PM, hippsta wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">Amen to that.<br><br>Resurgence or no, I think we could just have a good time in a social setting.<br>
Case-in-point: we go down the PASCAL/FORTRAN club and knock the dust off of those guys, as they play bridge and reminisce about teletypewriters and punch-cards. ;)<br>
<br>I was serious about the wives, kids, BBQs thing on the website though: (even if they'll be bored out of their minds listening to us talk perl, they could chat and play amongst themselves for that portion.) :D<br>
<br>
The biggest thing to remember is that although people elevate them to a level of stardom, these guys are just regular dudes:<br>When I was on SanDiego.pm Randall Schwartz had pinged the list asking if he could leave his luggage at someones house while he visited Mexico, lmao.<br>
<br>Also, we should be able to use any clout that we build to secure book reviews from publishers like O'Reilly, which means: free books.. woo!<br><br>C.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Steve Wells <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wells@cedarnet.org" target="_blank">wells@cedarnet.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">You are now the only other programmer that I know in the area.<div><br></div><div>I used to know everything there was to know about Perl but that was back when it was perl4 and I didn't need to know anything about OO stuff. I never went to school for this stuff either so the vocabulary is kinda' lost on me. I'm a avid reader though so I've poured through Damian's book on Object Oriented Perl but he hasn't written anything new in years. I would love to find a good book on Moose. There is a tiny chapter in the latest Catalyst book and about 10 pages of introduction in Modern Perl (by chromatic) but not much else. The online documentation is decent, albeit a bit dry but I'd love to see an OO book that uses Moose as it's basis the way OOP is written - maybe Damian can be persuaded to write an update. <a href="http://books.perl.org/" target="_blank">books.perl.org</a> doesn't show anything new (it doesn't show the new catalyst books for instance) but a search on Amazon shows a couple updates to older O'Reilly's coming out this summer.</div>
<div><br></div><div>To sum up - you might be right about a resurgence in Perl - if I had to guess I would say this fall or early winter there could be the start of a revival since it looks like O'Reilly might be taking a minor interest again with a new version of Intermediate and Learning Perl books, but we'll see</div>
<div><div><div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 8:45 PM, hippsta <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:the.hippsta@gmail.com" target="_blank">the.hippsta@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I feel like i'm pretty much in the same boat as you are.<br><br>The programming community at large may feel that perl has lost it's luster, or hold on the internet or whatever..<br>But realistically on a day-to-day basis, that has no bearing on me.<br>
<br>I use perl daily for sysadmin tasks, and less often for larger scaled modular worker daemon type stuff with OO.<br>Perl still runs X percent of the internet (like 70-80 iirc?) and until *that* changes I won't notice.<br>
<br>I think what they really mean is the companies' marketing depts have moved on to pushing for another buzz word like Ruby.<br>(Python can be left out as it's not a bastard child of perl per se, and has yet to find a niche except in linux system tasks)<br>
<br>Haven't messed with Moose either, but I installed catalyst once and LOL'ed at how many deps it had... the most i'd ever seen.. ever.<br><br>Anyway, I'm definitely looking forward to getting this group going again.<br>
I haven't gotten any other responses, but i'm not discouraged.. i have 4 billion email addies that i don't check either. ;)<br><br>Gonna try the standard recruiting tactics, you know:<br> 1. Guilt friends into joining<br>
2. Post ads on social media, and craigslist<br> 3. Try to convert programmers of other languages @CCSN/UNLV<br><br>See how that goes;<br>Also.. I really think we'll be able to draw a crowd... this *is* Vegas...<br>
Once Larry Wall has keynoted, the people will pour in... :P<br><br>C.<div><div></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Steve Wells <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wells@cedarnet.org" target="_blank">wells@cedarnet.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Cool - I'll grab it this weekend… so did you get many responses to your query concerning interest in Perl?<div><br>
</div><div>I don't know how much leverage Perl has lost in the language war, personally I don't care either.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I have CPAN and it solves my problems, so I use Perl. I haven't been paying attention to Moose like I</div><div>should and just started playing around with Catalyst this year, which has given me a whole new</div>
<div>perspective on web development. I know everyone has talked about the death of Perl6 but there seems</div><div>be more active development starting up last year… we'll see how that goes but I'm not holding my breath</div>
<div>(there's too much to do in the meantime :-D).</div><div><br></div><div>How about you - what's Perl done for you lately?</div><div><div><div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 3:11 PM, hippsta <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:the.hippsta@gmail.com" target="_blank">the.hippsta@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I also use mac, and Colloquy which is weird... i don't really like it.. (but it's popular)<br>and the ever popular Adium, which i also hated... :P lol<br>
<br>Those are pretty much the defacto standards for IRC on mac, if you find a better one lemme know.<br>
<br>GVLibrary = Awesome.<br><br>I'm glad to revive it: perl is still a major player in the language world, and on the internet.. it saddened me to the point of needing to take action. :)<br>I suppose that's how revolutions start?<br>
:D<br><br>C.<div><div></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Steve Wells <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wells@cedarnet.org" target="_blank">wells@cedarnet.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I can use IRC again - it's been a few years…<div>can you recommend an IRC program for my mac?<br><br></div><div>I have no problem meeting at the GreenValley Library (and free is always good) :)</div><div><br></div><div>
Thanks for reviving this!</div><div><div><div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:02 PM, hippsta <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:the.hippsta@gmail.com" target="_blank">the.hippsta@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Sounds great Steve! :)<br>...And nice to meet you by the way.<br><br>I was thinking the GreenValley Library as:<br> 1. It's relatively close to me (haha)<br> 2. Use of the conference rooms are free, and...<br> 3. they only require 24hrs notice to secure<br>
<br>Not sure if you still use IRC, but you can come hang out with me and some of the locals on <a href="http://irc.perl.org/" target="_blank">irc.perl.org</a> that have already gravitated toward our room : #<a href="http://lasvegas.pm/" target="_blank">lasvegas.pm</a>; until we work out a meeting date.<br>
<br>Looking forward to it!<br><br>:) Chris<div><div></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Steve Wells <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wells@cedarnet.org" target="_blank">wells@cedarnet.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I'm in - tell me a time and place :)<div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div>2011/3/24 hippsta <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:the.hippsta@gmail.com" target="_blank">the.hippsta@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div>
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline">Hello Fellow Mongers!<br>
<br>We’ve been inactive for far too long, and as the new group leader, I aim to change that.<br>The
companies in this city are not hiring perl programmers, and we are the
only ones that can convince them, and the local computer science /
programming community that </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:bold;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline">perl</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline"> is the answer: not java, python, php or ruby.<br>
</span><br><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline">Furthermore,
we live in one of the most popular and visited cities in the world: so
we should be able to secure plenty of guest speakers for keynotes and
lightning talks during our meetings. (I’ve literally already had offers from other group leaders, since yesterday.)</span><br><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline"></span><br>
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline">I
mainly wanted to get an idea of who all on the list is still out there,
still interested in perl, and to touch base with them. Although, if I
have to I’ll go kidnap some university students and train them myself to
rebuild the group.</span><br><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
Perl & Loathing in Las Vegas!<br></span><a href="http://lasvegas.pm.org/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000099;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:underline;vertical-align:baseline">http://lasvegas.pm.org/</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline"></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-color:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline"></span><br>
<font color="#888888">
<font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">-- <br>Respectfully,<br><br>Chris Hart<br>Senior Internet Engineer,<br>ZeroLag Communications, Inc.<br><a href="http://www.zerolag.com/" target="_blank">http://www.zerolag.com</a></font><br>
</font><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>STEVE<br>-----<br><br><br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><font color="#888888">-- <br>Respectfully,<br>
<br><b>hippsta</b><br>
Group Leader / List Administrator,<br>
Las Vegas Perl Mongers<br>
<a href="http://lasvegas.pm.org/" target="_blank">http://lasvegas.pm.org</a><br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>-- <br>STEVE<br>-----<br><br><br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><font color="#888888">-- <br>Respectfully,<br>
<b><br>Chris Hart</b> -- (a.k.a. hippsta)</font><div><div></div><div><br>
Group Leader / List Administrator,<br>
Las Vegas Perl Mongers<br>
<a href="http://lasvegas.pm.org/" target="_blank">http://lasvegas.pm.org</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>-- <br>STEVE<br>-----<br><br><br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Respectfully,<br>
<b><br>Chris Hart</b> -- (a.k.a. hippsta)<br>
Group Leader / List Administrator,<br>
Las Vegas Perl Mongers<br>
<a href="http://lasvegas.pm.org/" target="_blank">http://lasvegas.pm.org</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>-- <br>STEVE<br>-----<br><br><br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Respectfully,<br>
<b><br>Chris Hart</b> -- (a.k.a. hippsta)<br>
Group Leader / List Administrator,<br>
Las Vegas Perl Mongers<br>
<a href="http://lasvegas.pm.org/" target="_blank">http://lasvegas.pm.org</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>LasVegas-pm mailing list<br><a href="mailto:LasVegas-pm@pm.org" target="_blank">LasVegas-pm@pm.org</a><br><a href="http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/lasvegas-pm" target="_blank">http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/lasvegas-pm</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Respectfully,<br>
<b><br>Chris Hart</b> -- (a.k.a. hippsta)<br>
Group Leader / List Administrator,<br>
Las Vegas Perl Mongers<br>
<a href="http://lasvegas.pm.org" target="_blank">http://lasvegas.pm.org</a><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>STEVE<br>-----<br><br><br>
</div>