[LasVegas-pm] LasVegas.pm -- State of the Onion

Steve Wells wells at cedarnet.org
Mon Mar 28 11:45:39 PDT 2011


Thanks for the link to to the Moose book - greatly appreciated!

Your case for 'Perl is dead.  Long live Perl.' had me thinking.
As for old perl vs. new perl (or Modern) I think we may be so tied up in OO
programming that we tend to think in terms of encapsulation rather than
evolution.  I don't believe that there is an old perl vs new perl - only
Perl with a larger toolkit than we've ever had before. TMTOWTDI.

Let's face it, the X-MEN system of programming really doesn't make sense.
 Though programmers (and users in general for that matter) believe that new
developments occur spontaneously and happen instantly (ironically at the
time they discover those changes) in actuality a Darwinian process made them
happen. Most code is thrown away and new evolutions take their place.

If we are to be honest, we all stand on the shoulders of giants.  Looking
down at them and ridiculing them, only hinders progress.  Without their
contributions we wouldn't be where are are today.  We should be spending our
time looking up and asking ourselves who we are going to carry going
forward.

2011/3/27 hippsta <the.hippsta at gmail.com>

> lol,
>
> Even though I was mentored in perl by one of the "old guard," (and I mean
> not even OO, old) -- I'd like to think that I'm open minded enough to
> embrace new technologies, and I'm fine with devoting time to Moose, etc
> during meetings, but:
>
>
> "I don't think Perl matters anymore, but Moose sure as hell does.  Perl
> without Moose is like Perl. Dead."
>
> I don't fully agree with this, (and perhaps it's because I hail from the
> system administration school of perl,) but not for the reason you're
> thinking.
>
>
> "Perl still runs X percent of the internet (like 70-80 iirc?) and until
> *that* changes I won't notice."
> -- That's old guard perl, from the "old kingdom" ;)
>
> ... also there are a *ton* of linux system packages that are written as
> such, as well.
>
> I'm not at all trying to be combative, but rather stress that Old Perl is
> still very much with us; while playing a lil' devils advocate.
>
> ;)
>
> C.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 3:44 PM, J. Shirley <jshirley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just now read the actual thread.
>>
>> Moose Book: http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/moose/5187831
>>
>> Stevan would very likely send a copy if he has one laying around… which I
>> would expect he does. This is, from what I know, self-published.
>>
>> I'm also not a fan of the old guard of the Perl world. Moose matters and
>> while Randall is a good guy (I knew him in Portland, been on FLOSS with him,
>> etc) he's not intrinsic to the new Perl hotness.
>>
>> I'm very opinionated on this. I don't think Perl matters anymore, but
>> Moose sure as hell does.  Perl without Moose is like Perl. Dead.
>>
>> (Yes, that is intentional hyperbole. I'm writing this mostly being snarky)
>>
>> On Mar 26, 2011, at 1:21 PM, hippsta wrote:
>>
>> Amen to that.
>>
>> Resurgence or no, I think we could just have a good time in a social
>> setting.
>> Case-in-point: we go down the PASCAL/FORTRAN club and knock the dust off
>> of those guys, as they play bridge and reminisce about teletypewriters and
>> punch-cards. ;)
>>
>> I was serious about the wives, kids, BBQs thing on the website though:
>> (even if they'll be bored out of their minds listening to us talk perl, they
>> could chat and play amongst themselves for that portion.) :D
>>
>> The biggest thing to remember is that although people elevate them to a
>> level of stardom, these guys are just regular dudes:
>> When I was on SanDiego.pm Randall Schwartz had pinged the list asking if
>> he could leave his luggage at someones house while he visited Mexico, lmao.
>>
>> Also, we should be able to use any clout that we build to secure book
>> reviews from publishers like O'Reilly, which means: free books.. woo!
>>
>> C.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Steve Wells <wells at cedarnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You are now the only other programmer that I know in the area.
>>>
>>> I used to know everything there was to know about Perl but that was back
>>> when it was perl4 and I didn't need to know anything about OO stuff.  I
>>> never went to school for this stuff either so the vocabulary is kinda' lost
>>> on me.  I'm a avid reader though so I've poured through Damian's book on
>>> Object Oriented Perl but he hasn't written anything new in years.  I would
>>> love to find a good book on Moose. There is a tiny chapter in the latest
>>> Catalyst book and about 10 pages of introduction in Modern Perl (by
>>> chromatic) but not much else.  The online documentation is decent, albeit a
>>> bit dry but I'd love to see an OO book that uses Moose as it's basis the way
>>> OOP is written - maybe Damian can be persuaded to write an update.
>>> books.perl.org doesn't show anything new (it doesn't show the new
>>> catalyst books for instance) but a search on Amazon shows a couple updates
>>> to older O'Reilly's coming out this summer.
>>>
>>> To sum up - you might be right about a resurgence in Perl - if I had to
>>> guess I would say this fall or early winter there could be the start of a
>>> revival since it looks like O'Reilly might be taking a minor interest again
>>> with a new version of Intermediate and Learning Perl books, but we'll see
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 8:45 PM, hippsta <the.hippsta at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I feel like i'm pretty much in the same boat as you are.
>>>>
>>>> The programming community at large may feel that perl has lost it's
>>>> luster, or hold on the internet or whatever..
>>>> But realistically on a day-to-day basis, that has no bearing on me.
>>>>
>>>> I use perl daily for sysadmin tasks, and less often for larger scaled
>>>> modular worker daemon type stuff with OO.
>>>> Perl still runs X percent of the internet (like 70-80 iirc?) and until
>>>> *that* changes I won't notice.
>>>>
>>>> I think what they really mean is the companies' marketing depts have
>>>> moved on to pushing for another buzz word like Ruby.
>>>> (Python can be left out as it's not a bastard child of perl per se, and
>>>> has yet to find a niche except in linux system tasks)
>>>>
>>>> Haven't messed with Moose either, but I installed catalyst once and
>>>> LOL'ed at how many deps it had... the most i'd ever seen.. ever.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I'm definitely looking forward to getting this group going
>>>> again.
>>>> I haven't gotten any other responses, but i'm not discouraged.. i have 4
>>>> billion email addies that i don't check either. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Gonna try the standard recruiting tactics, you know:
>>>>     1. Guilt friends into joining
>>>>     2. Post ads on social media, and craigslist
>>>>     3. Try to convert programmers of other languages @CCSN/UNLV
>>>>
>>>> See how that goes;
>>>> Also.. I really think we'll be able to draw a crowd... this *is*
>>>> Vegas...
>>>> Once Larry Wall has keynoted, the people will pour in... :P
>>>>
>>>> C.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Steve Wells <wells at cedarnet.org>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Cool - I'll grab it this weekend… so did you get many responses to your
>>>>> query concerning interest in Perl?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know how much leverage Perl has lost in the language war,
>>>>> personally I don't care either.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have CPAN and it solves my problems, so I use Perl.  I haven't been
>>>>> paying attention to Moose like I
>>>>> should and just started playing around with Catalyst this year, which
>>>>> has given me a whole new
>>>>> perspective on web development.  I know everyone has talked about the
>>>>> death of Perl6 but there seems
>>>>> be more active development starting up last year… we'll see how that
>>>>> goes but I'm not holding my breath
>>>>> (there's too much to do in the meantime :-D).
>>>>>
>>>>> How about you - what's Perl done for you lately?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 3:11 PM, hippsta <the.hippsta at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I also use mac, and Colloquy which is weird... i don't really like
>>>>>> it.. (but it's popular)
>>>>>> and the ever popular Adium, which i also hated... :P lol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are pretty much the defacto standards for IRC on mac, if you
>>>>>> find a better one lemme know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GVLibrary = Awesome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm glad to revive it: perl is still a major player in the language
>>>>>> world, and on the internet.. it saddened me to the point of needing to take
>>>>>> action. :)
>>>>>> I suppose that's how revolutions start?
>>>>>> :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Steve Wells <wells at cedarnet.org>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can use IRC again - it's been a few years…
>>>>>>> can you recommend an IRC program for my mac?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no problem meeting at the GreenValley Library (and free is
>>>>>>> always good) :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for reviving this!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:02 PM, hippsta <the.hippsta at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sounds great Steve! :)
>>>>>>>> ...And nice to meet you by the way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was thinking the GreenValley Library as:
>>>>>>>>     1. It's relatively close to me (haha)
>>>>>>>>     2. Use of the conference rooms are free, and...
>>>>>>>>     3. they only require 24hrs notice to secure
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure if you still use IRC, but you can come hang out with me and
>>>>>>>> some of the locals on irc.perl.org that have already gravitated
>>>>>>>> toward our room : #lasvegas.pm; until we work out a meeting date.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Looking forward to it!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :) Chris
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Steve Wells <wells at cedarnet.org>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm in - tell me a time and place :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2011/3/24 hippsta <the.hippsta at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellow Mongers!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’ve been inactive for far too long, and as the new group leader,
>>>>>>>>>> I aim to change that.
>>>>>>>>>> The companies in this city are not hiring perl programmers, and we
>>>>>>>>>> are the only ones that can convince them, and the local computer science /
>>>>>>>>>> programming community that perl is the answer: not java, python,
>>>>>>>>>> php or ruby.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Furthermore, we live in one of the most popular and visited cities
>>>>>>>>>> in the world: so we should be able to secure plenty of guest speakers for
>>>>>>>>>> keynotes and lightning talks during our meetings. (I’ve literally already
>>>>>>>>>> had offers from other group leaders, since yesterday.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I mainly wanted to get an idea of who all on the list is still out
>>>>>>>>>> there, still interested in perl, and to touch base with them. Although, if I
>>>>>>>>>> have to I’ll go kidnap some university students and train them myself to
>>>>>>>>>> rebuild the group.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perl & Loathing in Las Vegas!
>>>>>>>>>> http://lasvegas.pm.org/
>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chris Hart
>>>>>>>>>> Senior Internet Engineer,
>>>>>>>>>> ZeroLag Communications, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.zerolag.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> LasVegas-pm mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> LasVegas-pm at pm.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/lasvegas-pm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> STEVE
>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *hippsta*
>>>>>>>> Group Leader / List Administrator,
>>>>>>>> Las Vegas Perl Mongers
>>>>>>>> http://lasvegas.pm.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> STEVE
>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> Chris Hart* -- (a.k.a. hippsta)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Group Leader / List Administrator,
>>>>>> Las Vegas Perl Mongers
>>>>>> http://lasvegas.pm.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> STEVE
>>>>> -----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> *
>>>> Chris Hart* -- (a.k.a. hippsta)
>>>> Group Leader / List Administrator,
>>>> Las Vegas Perl Mongers
>>>> http://lasvegas.pm.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> STEVE
>>> -----
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Respectfully,
>> *
>> Chris Hart* -- (a.k.a. hippsta)
>> Group Leader / List Administrator,
>> Las Vegas Perl Mongers
>> http://lasvegas.pm.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> LasVegas-pm mailing list
>> LasVegas-pm at pm.org
>> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/lasvegas-pm
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Respectfully,
> *
> Chris Hart* -- (a.k.a. hippsta)
> Group Leader / List Administrator,
> Las Vegas Perl Mongers
> http://lasvegas.pm.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> LasVegas-pm mailing list
> LasVegas-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/lasvegas-pm
>
>


-- 
STEVE
-----
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