From da at coder.com Tue Feb 3 15:18:05 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:33 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Finalized announcement: Feb. meeting Message-ID: Announcing the February meeting of the KITCHENER-WATERLOO Perl Mongers - kw.pm - For enthusiasts of the Perl programming language Topic: Perl Modules: A Look Under the Hood In Perl, a module is the basic unit of code-reuse. The talk will be mostly a look into GD::Text::Arc, a module written to draw TrueType text around the edge of a circle. The talk will consider: * using and writing object-oriented perl code * the Virtue of Laziness: or, reusing other peoples' code. * writing tests while coding * beer coasters Date/Time: Wednesday the 18th of February, 2004 at 7pm Location: University of Waterloo Bioinformatics Lab, Davis Centre room 2305 For directions and a map, please check our FAQ: http://kw.pm.org/faq.html After the meeting we will adjourn to Morty's for drinks. Parking: The closest legal parking is probably the 'B' lot, which has public parking after 4pm for $2 (coin only). The entrance is on Phillip Street, just after the University Plaza going East on University Ave. From da at coder.com Fri Feb 6 17:03:37 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:33 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] poster for Feb. talk Message-ID: I put together a poster for the talk in two weeks- if anybody has interest in posting it somewhere: http://kw.pm.org/posters/0204poster.pdf -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From alexanderh at rogers.com Mon Feb 9 16:55:58 2004 From: alexanderh at rogers.com (alexanderh@rogers.com) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:33 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] New member Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20040209174522.02413850@pop> Hi My name is Sandy Hunter. I am just joining now. I am new to perl but not new to coding for the web. I am a hack. I like jumping into code and like learning that way. I belong to the KWIUG and the KWLUG. I webmaster at the KWIUG and have never set hands on a Linux machine. I have met Daniel at the KWLUG the only two times I have been there (last time was the spam avoidance meeting). I have met Lloyd online through KWIUG. I like to work with PHP/MySQL. I use Homesite for control and Dreamweaver for avoiding looking at layout code more than I need to so I can do more useful code. I am a jack of all master of none. I get what needs doing done. I often combine everything but the kitchen sink to accomplish what I need. I don't see myself learning all of PERL but I do see having a lot of fun with a lot of it. I look forward to meeting you Sandy PS do we have PHP/MySQL support? From arguile at lucentstudios.com Mon Feb 9 17:08:18 2004 From: arguile at lucentstudios.com (Arguile) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:33 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Next Meeting Message-ID: <1076367848.491.15.camel@broadswd.local> Looking forward to finally having time to attend another kw-pm meeting, just to have a work one scheduled running about 45min. into it. Does anyone forsee it lasting over an hour? ie. is it worthwhile even trying to show up late? From daniel at coder.com Mon Feb 9 17:56:51 2004 From: daniel at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:33 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Next Meeting In-Reply-To: <1076367848.491.15.camel@broadswd.local> Message-ID: What luck, eh? I'm planning for about an hour of prepared talk, but I'm an awful slave-driver of a speaker (that is, I'm NOT a good slave-driver; I will take questions during the talk) so it depends on how many questions there are during the prepared part. We'll probably also have other things to talk about at the meeting, before we go to Morty's afterward (on King; www.mortys.com for address). A guess is we won't get there until 9 or so; if you're free at a quarter of 8, I'd say, sure; come on up. -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On 9 Feb 2004, Arguile wrote: > Looking forward to finally having time to attend another kw-pm meeting, > just to have a work one scheduled running about 45min. into it. Does > anyone forsee it lasting over an hour? ie. is it worthwhile even trying > to show up late? > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From daniel at coder.com Mon Feb 9 18:02:44 2004 From: daniel at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] New member In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040209174522.02413850@pop> Message-ID: Greetings Sandy! Sounds like you'll have fun with perl. It's a great language for hacks. This meeting may be a bit of jumping in with both feet; but it will indeed be a chance to look at code. I look forward to meeting you again. As to your PS- are you asking if perl has PHP and MySQL support (not really and yes, respectively), or if the meeting has people who use those (yes; I can think of a few others beside myself who do)? -Daniel PS- the language is either "Perl" or "perl", but not PERL. According to Larry Wall, at least. :-) On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 alexanderh@rogers.com wrote: > Hi > > My name is Sandy Hunter. I am just joining now. I am new to perl but not > new to coding for the web. > > I am a hack. I like jumping into code and like learning that way. > > I belong to the KWIUG and the KWLUG. I webmaster at the KWIUG and have > never set hands on a Linux machine. > > I have met Daniel at the KWLUG the only two times I have been there (last > time was the spam avoidance meeting). I have met Lloyd online through KWIUG. > > I like to work with PHP/MySQL. > > I use Homesite for control and Dreamweaver for avoiding looking at layout > code more than I need to so I can do more useful code. > > I am a jack of all master of none. I get what needs doing done. I often > combine everything but the kitchen sink to accomplish what I need. I don't > see myself learning all of PERL but I do see having a lot of fun with a lot > of it. > > I look forward to meeting you > > Sandy > > PS do we have PHP/MySQL support? > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From arguile at lucentstudios.com Mon Feb 9 21:08:44 2004 From: arguile at lucentstudios.com (Arguile) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] New member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1076382274.491.20.camel@broadswd.local> On Mon, 2004-02-09 at 19:02, Daniel R. Allen wrote: [snip] > > PS- the language is either "Perl" or "perl", but not PERL. According to > Larry Wall, at least. :-) Actually, according to the great Wall (of Larry, not China) the language is "Perl" and the interpretter is "perl". How's that for pendantic? From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Feb 10 04:19:12 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] New member In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040209174522.02413850@pop> References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040209174522.02413850@pop> Message-ID: Welcome Sandy :-) On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 alexanderh@rogers.com wrote: > Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:55:58 -0500 > From: alexanderh@rogers.com > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] New member > > Hi > > My name is Sandy Hunter. I am just joining now. I am new to perl but not > new to coding for the web. > > I am a hack. I like jumping into code and like learning that way. > > I belong to the KWIUG and the KWLUG. I webmaster at the KWIUG and have > never set hands on a Linux machine. > > I have met Daniel at the KWLUG the only two times I have been there (last > time was the spam avoidance meeting). I have met Lloyd online through KWIUG. > > I like to work with PHP/MySQL. > > I use Homesite for control and Dreamweaver for avoiding looking at layout > code more than I need to so I can do more useful code. > > I am a jack of all master of none. I get what needs doing done. I often > combine everything but the kitchen sink to accomplish what I need. I don't > see myself learning all of PERL but I do see having a lot of fun with a lot > of it. > > I look forward to meeting you > > Sandy > > PS do we have PHP/MySQL support? > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Feb 10 04:24:52 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Next Meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh my, miss almost all of Daniels talk and get there only to have to leave to go drink beer at Morty's, hell life is hard ;-) [Only kidding Daniel] On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:56:51 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: Arguile > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Next Meeting > > What luck, eh? > > I'm planning for about an hour of prepared talk, but I'm an awful > slave-driver of a speaker (that is, I'm NOT a good slave-driver; I will > take questions during the talk) so it depends on how many questions there > are during the prepared part. We'll probably also have other things to > talk about at the meeting, before we go to Morty's afterward (on King; > www.mortys.com for address). A guess is we won't get there until 9 or so; > if you're free at a quarter of 8, I'd say, sure; come on up. > > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > On 9 Feb 2004, Arguile wrote: > > > Looking forward to finally having time to attend another kw-pm meeting, > > just to have a work one scheduled running about 45min. into it. Does > > anyone forsee it lasting over an hour? ie. is it worthwhile even trying > > to show up late? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Feb 10 04:29:48 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] New member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should explain that Larry Wall is GOD (or is that God I know it's not god). P.S. Is it GOD or PERL if your shouting ;-) On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:02:44 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: alexanderh@rogers.com > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] New member > > Greetings Sandy! > > Sounds like you'll have fun with perl. It's a great language for hacks. > This meeting may be a bit of jumping in with both feet; but it will indeed > be a chance to look at code. I look forward to meeting you again. > > As to your PS- are you asking if perl has PHP and MySQL support (not > really and yes, respectively), or if the meeting has people who use those > (yes; I can think of a few others beside myself who do)? > > -Daniel > > PS- the language is either "Perl" or "perl", but not PERL. According to > Larry Wall, at least. :-) > > On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 alexanderh@rogers.com wrote: > > > Hi > > > > My name is Sandy Hunter. I am just joining now. I am new to perl but not > > new to coding for the web. > > > > I am a hack. I like jumping into code and like learning that way. > > > > I belong to the KWIUG and the KWLUG. I webmaster at the KWIUG and have > > never set hands on a Linux machine. > > > > I have met Daniel at the KWLUG the only two times I have been there (last > > time was the spam avoidance meeting). I have met Lloyd online through KWIUG. > > > > I like to work with PHP/MySQL. > > > > I use Homesite for control and Dreamweaver for avoiding looking at layout > > code more than I need to so I can do more useful code. > > > > I am a jack of all master of none. I get what needs doing done. I often > > combine everything but the kitchen sink to accomplish what I need. I don't > > see myself learning all of PERL but I do see having a lot of fun with a lot > > of it. > > > > I look forward to meeting you > > > > Sandy > > > > PS do we have PHP/MySQL support? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From daniel at coder.com Tue Feb 10 09:27:46 2004 From: daniel at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] New member In-Reply-To: <1076382274.491.20.camel@broadswd.local> Message-ID: I'll see your pedanticism, and raise you a pedant. :-) perlfaq1 (man perlfaq1) says: > What's the difference between "perl" and "Perl"? > > One bit. Oh, you weren't talking ASCII? :-) Larry now uses "Perl" to > signify the language proper and "perl" the implementation of it, > i.e. the current interpreter. Hence Tom's quip that "Nothing but > perl can parse Perl." You may or may not choose to follow this > usage. For example, parallelism means "awk and perl" and "Python and > Perl" look OK, while "awk and Perl" and "Python and perl" do > not. But never write "PERL", because perl is not an acronym, > apocryphal folklore and post-facto expansions notwithstanding. Cheers, -Daniel On 9 Feb 2004, Arguile wrote: > On Mon, 2004-02-09 at 19:02, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > [snip] > > > > PS- the language is either "Perl" or "perl", but not PERL. According to > > Larry Wall, at least. :-) > > Actually, according to the great Wall (of Larry, not China) the language > is "Perl" and the interpretter is "perl". > > How's that for pendantic? > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From quantum_mechanic_1964 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 18:11:33 2004 From: quantum_mechanic_1964 at yahoo.com (Quantum Mechanic) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Re: kw-pm Digest, Vol 8, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <200402101800.i1AI0Nd30102@mail.pm.org> Message-ID: <20040212001133.83203.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> >> PS- the language is either "Perl" or "perl", but not PERL. According to >> Larry Wall, at least. :-) > Actually, according to the great Wall (of Larry, not China) the language > is "Perl" and the interpretter is "perl". > How's that for pendantic? Actually, it's "pedantic": Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules. Yep, that's it! ;) ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From da at coder.com Tue Feb 17 11:38:31 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Reminder: Meeting tomorrow @ 7pm Message-ID: This is just a reminder of tomorrow's talk- 7pm, Davis Centre room 2305, UW campus. Hope you can make it! -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From da at coder.com Wed Feb 18 21:18:12 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] neat permutations trick.. Message-ID: When I tried this in the meeting, I could've sworn I'd tried the same parameters, but anyway, both of these work; they are un-documented features of perl's filename expansions, that don't actually require any files to match, but return a valid array. Courtesy toronto.pm: bash %> perl -d -e 1 DB<1> @x = glob( "{a,b,c}{1,2,3}" ) DB<2> x @x 0 'a1' 1 'a2' 2 'a3' 3 'b1' 4 'b2' 5 'b3' 6 'c1' 7 'c2' 8 'c3' DB<3> @x = <{a,b,c}{1,2,3}{doo,dah}> DB<4> x @x 0 'a1doo' 1 'a1dah' 2 'a2doo' 3 'a2dah' 4 'a3doo' 5 'a3dah' 6 'b1doo' 7 'b1dah' 8 'b2doo' 9 'b2dah' 10 'b3doo' 11 'b3dah' 12 'c1doo' 13 'c1dah' 14 'c2doo' 15 'c2dah' 16 'c3doo' 17 'c3dah' -- http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Feb 18 21:35:20 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Warnocked Message-ID: What does Warnocked mean? dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Thu Feb 19 05:05:04 2004 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] neat permutations trick.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402190605.04619@-mixdown.ca> > When I tried this in the meeting, I could've sworn I'd tried the same > parameters, but anyway, both of these work; they are un-documented > features of perl's filename expansions, that don't actually require any > files to match, but return a valid array. Courtesy toronto.pm: [ snipped ] Could we have that again please, perhaps in English? I'm having trouble seeing the utility. Regards, Andrew From da at coder.com Thu Feb 19 05:53:42 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] neat permutations trick.. Message-ID: Sure. Say you have two sets of variables (a,b,c) and (1,2,3). What's the simplest way to expand that into all permutations in perl?... -- http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Thu, 19 Feb 2004, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > When I tried this in the meeting, I could've sworn I'd tried the same > > parameters, but anyway, both of these work; they are un-documented > > features of perl's filename expansions, that don't actually require any > > files to match, but return a valid array. Courtesy toronto.pm: > > [ snipped ] > > Could we have that again please, perhaps in English? I'm having trouble > seeing the utility. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From daniel at coder.com Thu Feb 19 05:59:38 2004 From: daniel at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Warnocked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You were reading perl6 internals mailing list haven't you?... google for jargon warnock. Third link, from wired online (of all places): "Warnock's Dilemma: The act of choosing whether the lack of response to a discussion-list post is because of its brilliance (there's nothing to add) or because of its stupidity (it doesn't deserve comment). Named after Brian Warnock, who first described the condition on a Perl list." ...but the usage seems to be more subtle: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/list-summaries/2003/p6summary.2003-08-31.html "Jrgen gets De-Warnocked Jrgen Bmmels had been caught on the horns of Warnock's Dilemma over a patch he submitted a while back. It turns out that he'd been Warnocked in part because both Leo and Dan thought he already had commit rights. So that got fixed. Welcome to the ranks of Parrot committers Jrgen, you've deserved it for a while." So, being Warnocked is not knowing whether what you said was stupid, or profound, so you don't follow up your own message, so it's ignored forever. ...This exploration of perl jargon has been brought to you by the letters M, P, and by the number 3. -- http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Thu, 19 Feb 2004, lloyd carr wrote: > What does Warnocked mean? > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Fri Feb 20 10:44:02 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting / Active State Message-ID: Well, we have to have a March meeting now- I got a pile of swag from ActiveState to pass out. At Lloyd's suggestion (thanks!), I signed us up as an ActiveState User Group. They have mailed: * about 100 temporary tattoos (I think the pic is of a komodo dragon) * 8 sets of CDs containing ActivePerl, ActivePython, and ActiveTcl (linux, solaris, and windows binaries and source) * 2 highly attractive mugs * a batch of Sophos stuff (the company that recently bought active state) including two teeshirts and a pile of pens. Anyway, since we were briefly talking about their Perl IDE at the last meeting, this is timely. I found a link to what's on the CD: http://www.activestate.ca/Products/ActiveCD/more_information.plex -- http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From rebecca_anstett at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 11:10:34 2004 From: rebecca_anstett at hotmail.com (Rebecca Anstett) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) Message-ID: Heya folks, I've been lurking here for a bit - going to actually introduce myself now ;) I grew up in this area, although I spent the last few years working on enterprise web solutions (mod_perl/php/MySQL) at Mitel Networks (originally for e-smith, but Mitel purchased them), got laid off during the Ottawa telco slump and came back to KW. I've just finished up a windows -> linux (ColdFusion/Oracle) Intranet migration for Environment Canada and am starting another contract as soon as I finish the proposal ;) I work part-time as a bartender, am taking courses in holistic health and (the funny part), I have a degree in Classical and Medieval Studies. And that is that! ~Rebecca Anstett http://www.rebecca-anstett.com/ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Feb 20 14:13:41 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome Rebecca. So you have been lurking, was it Daniels report of swag that drew you out of the woodwork? ;-) -Lloyd On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Rebecca Anstett wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:10:34 +0000 > From: Rebecca Anstett > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) > > Heya folks, > > I've been lurking here for a bit - going to actually introduce myself now ;) > I grew up in this area, although I spent the last few years working on > enterprise web solutions (mod_perl/php/MySQL) at Mitel Networks (originally > for e-smith, but Mitel purchased them), got laid off during the Ottawa telco > slump and came back to KW. I've just finished up a windows -> linux > (ColdFusion/Oracle) Intranet migration for Environment Canada and am > starting another contract as soon as I finish the proposal ;) I work > part-time as a bartender, am taking courses in holistic health and (the > funny part), I have a degree in Classical and Medieval Studies. And that is > that! > > ~Rebecca Anstett > http://www.rebecca-anstett.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From rebecca_anstett at hotmail.com Fri Feb 20 14:15:59 2004 From: rebecca_anstett at hotmail.com (Rebecca Anstett) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) Message-ID: Guilty as charged :0) >From: lloyd carr >To: Rebecca Anstett >CC: kw-pm@mail.pm.org >Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:13:41 +0000 (UTC) > >Welcome Rebecca. So you have been lurking, was it Daniels report of swag >that drew you out of the woodwork? ;-) > >-Lloyd _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From da at coder.com Fri Feb 20 21:16:55 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cool. Welcome Rebecca! We'll have to come up with some good way to distribute the swag. There are definitely enough Sophos pens to go around... So- Lloyd- not to put any pressure on, but are you volunteering to give the talk? Acronym soup, was it? To go with the beer coasters? :-) -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Rebecca Anstett wrote: > Guilty as charged :0) > > > >From: lloyd carr > >To: Rebecca Anstett > >CC: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > >Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) > >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:13:41 +0000 (UTC) > > > >Welcome Rebecca. So you have been lurking, was it Daniels report of swag > >that drew you out of the woodwork? ;-) > > > >-Lloyd > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sat Feb 21 03:17:20 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Strange, I thought I had volunteered? OHHH you want me to do it publicly ... I had mentioned to Daniel that I would be willing to do a talk on "Intro to Web Services in Perl" for our swag fest in March. Daniel requested that I add acronym soup to the menu, which is easy to do in anything XML ;-) I am A-list so don't worry, your Warnock has no power over me ... but if you have a problem with Warnock check out http://www.classy.dk/log/archive/000427.html -Lloyd On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:16:55 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) > > Cool. Welcome Rebecca! > > We'll have to come up with some good way to distribute the swag. There > are definitely enough Sophos pens to go around... > > So- Lloyd- not to put any pressure on, but are you volunteering to give > the talk? Acronym soup, was it? > > To go with the beer coasters? :-) > > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Rebecca Anstett wrote: > > > Guilty as charged :0) > > > > > > >From: lloyd carr > > >To: Rebecca Anstett > > >CC: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > >Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) > > >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:13:41 +0000 (UTC) > > > > > >Welcome Rebecca. So you have been lurking, was it Daniels report of swag > > >that drew you out of the woodwork? ;-) > > > > > >-Lloyd > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sat Feb 21 03:23:01 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sophos pens, what no Sophos decoder rings What about the Sophos PGP keychains ;-) On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:16:55 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) > > Cool. Welcome Rebecca! > > We'll have to come up with some good way to distribute the swag. There > are definitely enough Sophos pens to go around... > > So- Lloyd- not to put any pressure on, but are you volunteering to give > the talk? Acronym soup, was it? > > To go with the beer coasters? :-) > > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Rebecca Anstett wrote: > > > Guilty as charged :0) > > > > > > >From: lloyd carr > > >To: Rebecca Anstett > > >CC: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > >Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) > > >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:13:41 +0000 (UTC) > > > > > >Welcome Rebecca. So you have been lurking, was it Daniels report of swag > > >that drew you out of the woodwork? ;-) > > > > > >-Lloyd > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From da at coder.com Sat Feb 21 17:42:28 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Feb 2004, lloyd carr wrote: > Strange, I thought I had volunteered? > > OHHH you want me to do it publicly ... Thanks! > I had mentioned to Daniel that I would be willing to do a talk on "Intro > to Web Services in Perl" for our swag fest in March. Daniel requested that > I add acronym soup to the menu, which is easy to do in anything XML ;-) Apart from the acronyms, web services are published protocols for applications to talk to each other via the web. They let your perl programs talk directly to google and amazon for example. Why use these instead of WWW::Mechanize or other webpage-parsing modules?... Good question... > I am A-list so don't worry, your Warnock has no power over me ... > but if you have a problem with Warnock check out > > http://www.classy.dk/log/archive/000427.html Er. Whatever he said. :-) -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > -Lloyd > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:16:55 -0500 (EST) > > From: Daniel R. Allen > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) > > > > Cool. Welcome Rebecca! > > > > We'll have to come up with some good way to distribute the swag. There > > are definitely enough Sophos pens to go around... > > > > So- Lloyd- not to put any pressure on, but are you volunteering to give > > the talk? Acronym soup, was it? > > > > To go with the beer coasters? :-) > > > > -Daniel > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Rebecca Anstett wrote: > > > > > Guilty as charged :0) > > > > > > > > > >From: lloyd carr > > > >To: Rebecca Anstett > > > >CC: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > >Subject: Re: [kw-pm] new member :) > > > >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:13:41 +0000 (UTC) > > > > > > > >Welcome Rebecca. So you have been lurking, was it Daniels report of swag > > > >that drew you out of the woodwork? ;-) > > > > > > > >-Lloyd > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sat Feb 21 22:21:36 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Apart from the acronyms, web services are published protocols for > applications to talk to each other via the web. They let your perl > programs talk directly to google and amazon for example. > > Why use these instead of WWW::Mechanize or other webpage-parsing > modules?... Good question... UGH Daniel! Why use a service in place of HTML scraping?! Why use XML when HTML will do just fine?!? :-( Why use XML-RPC in place of CGI?! As Daniel demonstrated in his excellent talk on modules, of which his beer coasters are an excellent example, it is a great good to hide the complexity and specifics of you implementation as inside a module. Dare I say that is an even greater good, that in addition to hiding the complexity and specifics of your implementation, you make it possible that the client and service need not reside on the same machine or be written in the same language or be running on the same OS! The hype and acronym soup may collapse under it's own weight, as it should, but I can still see many applications in our heterogeneous networked world. The web in web service is perhaps misleading, the WWW of browsing and surfing is only the smallest fraction of where this technology could be used. -Lloyd From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Sun Feb 22 07:39:34 2004 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] new member :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402220839.34272@-mixdown.ca> > I had mentioned to Daniel that I would be willing to do a talk on "Intro > to Web Services in Perl" for our swag fest in March. Daniel requested > that I add acronym soup to the menu, which is easy to do in anything XML > ;-) Everything is easy to do in XML; the problem lies in reading it. :-) What a bass-ackwards way to represent data, but I cannot think of anything more easily machine-read with the right library. :-) Now an intro to web services includes what, exactly? I've done Frontier::RPC2 and a lot of CGI but I have a feeling that's not anything close. Regards, Andrew From da at coder.com Sun Feb 22 10:10:48 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] xml In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ...So you mean that communicating application-to-application over the web is made easier by wrapping things up in another layer of encapsulation than by parsing the webpage output and submitting standard forms? Just to play devil's advocate- even if it would be easier to use, my bank hasn't published an XML-RPC interface so I can do things my own way, and I bet they never will. If I want to interact with them, or with most other websites, I need to either write the parsing tools myself, or find somebody who's already done it (such as with Mail::Webmail::Yahoo or WWW::Search). Who's to say that CPAN authors won't do a better job of it than the banks and credit-card companies and car-rental companies and governments (who probably don't even care?) Just being devil's advocate here. :-) -- http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, lloyd carr wrote: > > Apart from the acronyms, web services are published protocols for > > applications to talk to each other via the web. They let your perl > > programs talk directly to google and amazon for example. > > > > Why use these instead of WWW::Mechanize or other webpage-parsing > > modules?... Good question... > > UGH Daniel! Why use a service in place of HTML scraping?! > Why use XML when HTML will do just fine?!? :-( > Why use XML-RPC in place of CGI?! > > As Daniel demonstrated in his excellent talk on modules, of which his beer > coasters are an excellent example, it is a great good to hide the > complexity and specifics of you implementation as inside a module. Dare I > say that is an even greater good, that in addition to hiding the > complexity and specifics of your implementation, you make it possible that > the client and service need not reside on the same machine or be written > in the same language or be running on the same OS! > > The hype and acronym > soup may collapse under it's own weight, as it should, but I can still see > many applications in our heterogeneous networked world. > > The web in web service is perhaps misleading, the WWW of browsing and > surfing is only the smallest fraction of where this technology could be used. > > -Lloyd > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Sun Feb 22 10:58:14 2004 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] xml In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200402221158.14209@-mixdown.ca> > ...So you mean that communicating application-to-application over the web > is made easier by wrapping things up in another layer of encapsulation > than by parsing the webpage output and submitting standard forms? Oh dear lord yes. Screen-scraping is best-effort only. If you want any kind of reliability whatsoever you MUST standardize and NOT give the people who make the pages purdy the ability to muck with it. That is precisely why you get wonderful things like XML -- you can pass the data to the page purdyfier with something like fop and let the artists do their thing, but still get the data in a reliable format by picking it off just before the artist. Or, do it right in the first place and offer XMLRPC or SOAP interfaces. Regards, Andrew From rzhang at linuximize.com Sun Feb 22 11:27:08 2004 From: rzhang at linuximize.com (Rex Zhang) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] SOAP authentication In-Reply-To: <200402221158.14209@-mixdown.ca> References: <200402221158.14209@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: <4038E66C.6090509@linuximize.com> Hi : This may be a little out of topic. I am writing a small web service application, gSOAP for server side and SOAP::Lite for client side. I need a mechanism to authenticate user who can use the service. Is there any standardized and practical (relatively easy) way to do it? Thanks Rex -- Rex Zhang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ System Analyst/Consultant rzhang@linuximize.com Quicksys Consulting Tel: 1.800.348.9674 www.quicksys-consulting.com Fax: 1.866.871.5237 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From arguile at lucentstudios.com Sun Feb 22 11:29:13 2004 From: arguile at lucentstudios.com (Arguile) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] xml In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1077470869.488.53.camel@broadswd.local> On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 11:10, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > ...So you mean that communicating application-to-application over the web > is made easier by wrapping things up in another layer of encapsulation > than by parsing the webpage output and submitting standard forms? Simply put. Yes. I'll address both the above and other common problems with this type of service. Web scraping is horribly prone to breakage. A single change to the display structure of the page and your whole service can break down. Traditionally writing network applications involved writing your own protocol. Binary data exchange formats are normally positional (ie. byte offset) so adding extra fields or changing things about breaks existing implementations. Not only that but they _require_ proper documentation unless you like spending hours reverse engineering things. Those are the the main points XML (and friends) address. Elements can be added anywhere in the document without effecting existing applications. Given the heirarchy itself isn't changed elements can be re-ordered at whim as well. There is absolutely no presentation conisderations involved (what HTML should have been). XML is just plain text so HTTP can be used (however with true RPC you have statelessness to consider). Position is irrelevant if the heirarchy is preserved. XML is easily machine parsable and nominally human parsable; so to some degree it's self documenting. A good DTD/Schema is still suggested (strongly) but not required. > Just to play devil's advocate- even if it would be easier to use, my bank > hasn't published an XML-RPC interface so I can do things my own way, and I > bet they never will. If I want to interact with them, or with most other > websites, I need to either write the parsing tools myself, or find > somebody who's already done it (such as with Mail::Webmail::Yahoo or > WWW::Search). Who's to say that CPAN authors won't do a better job of it > than the banks and credit-card companies and car-rental companies and > governments (who probably don't even care?) Web scraping is still needed for those above reasons. But petition your bank or other institution to provide a proper XML DTD/Schema as it is a better solution. > Just being devil's advocate here. :-) Myself aswell. I really don't like many of the uses people have proposed for XML. Like anything though, give someone a hammer and every problem becomes a nail. RPC for example, is not a nail. There is a nail in it, as you have to exchange the data in some form, but there's much more to it than that. And HTTP is almost never the answer to the rest of that problem. Talking from many many wasted hours^H^H^H^H^Hweeks reverse engineering binary data packets without any documentation -- I can only imagine how the Samba team feels -- XML can be a great tool when it's used properly. Sure it's overly verbose and processor intensive, but it saves programmers tons of time of frustration. Which these days is much more valuable than a few clock cycles and some bandwidth (after gziping it's not too bad on that score). > On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, lloyd carr wrote: > > > > Apart from the acronyms, web services are published protocols for > > > applications to talk to each other via the web. They let your perl > > > programs talk directly to google and amazon for example. > > > > > > Why use these instead of WWW::Mechanize or other webpage-parsing > > > modules?... Good question... > > > > UGH Daniel! Why use a service in place of HTML scraping?! > > Why use XML when HTML will do just fine?!? :-( > > Why use XML-RPC in place of CGI?! > > > > As Daniel demonstrated in his excellent talk on modules, of which his beer > > coasters are an excellent example, it is a great good to hide the > > complexity and specifics of you implementation as inside a module. Dare I > > say that is an even greater good, that in addition to hiding the > > complexity and specifics of your implementation, you make it possible that > > the client and service need not reside on the same machine or be written > > in the same language or be running on the same OS! > > > > The hype and acronym > > soup may collapse under it's own weight, as it should, but I can still see > > many applications in our heterogeneous networked world. > > > > The web in web service is perhaps misleading, the WWW of browsing and > > surfing is only the smallest fraction of where this technology could be used. > > > > -Lloyd > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm -- Arguile From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sun Feb 22 15:35:05 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] xml In-Reply-To: <200402220839.34272@-mixdown.ca> References: <200402220839.34272@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: > Now an intro to web services includes what, exactly? I've done > Frontier::RPC2 and a lot of CGI but I have a feeling that's not anything > close. Actually for my intro very close, except for the CGI, is CGI a web service? I was going to work through some simple XML-RPC examples of clients and servers in Perl. I am even wondering now if we need to talk a little about XML itself, any thoughts? Would it be better to do a talk on XML in Perl before doing one on web services? If we do go ahead with a web services talk, if anyone would like to share the podium and show their XML-RPC or SOAP code let me know. -Lloyd > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sun Feb 22 15:47:19 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] xml In-Reply-To: <200402221158.14209@-mixdown.ca> References: <200402221158.14209@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: > Screen-scraping is best-effort only. If you want any kind of reliability > whatsoever you MUST standardize and NOT give the people who make the pages > purdy the ability to muck with it. That is precisely why you get wonderful > things like XML -- you can pass the data to the page purdyfier with > something like fop and let the artists do their thing, but still get the > data in a reliable format by picking it off just before the artist. Amen, but again much of what I see is machine to machine or program to program communication in which case you don't need a "purdyfier" ;-) > > Or, do it right in the first place and offer XMLRPC or SOAP interfaces. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sun Feb 22 16:14:23 2004 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] xml In-Reply-To: <1077470869.488.53.camel@broadswd.local> References: <1077470869.488.53.camel@broadswd.local> Message-ID: Arguile, Amen to all you said, but for some reason I couldn't parse this one paragraph, what were you trying to say? > RPC for example, is not a nail. There is a nail in it, as you have to > exchange the data in some form, but there's much more to it than that. > And HTTP is almost never the answer to the rest of that problem. -Lloyd From da at coder.com Sat Feb 28 16:37:03 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Review: Perl Cookbook, 2nd ed. Message-ID: If there are any O'Reilly books you'd like to review, let me know and you can get a free review copy. They have been very good to us; we have a 10-book lending library due to "extra" books they've sent. Go O'Reilly! Review: Perl Cookbook 2nd edition The Perl Cookbook, by Tom Christianson and Nat Torkington, is probably the second book many Perl programmers buy, after "Programming Perl" or "Learning Perl." It's often the most dog-eared O'Reilly book a programmer will own. It occupies its place of honour on the shelf for a good reason. The Cookbook introduces hundreds of recipes[1] to cover all kinds of perl programming situations, from "How do I keep my own private module directory?" to "How do I build a binary tree?" to "How do I intercept Ctrl-C characters?" [2] Recipes range from half a page to half a dozen pages. Each recipe introduces the problem, shows a solution, discusses the solution in depth, and most refer the reader to other sources of solutions or documentation. The recipes are great for answering questions, but the in-depth discussions are where the book shines, teaching basic and advanced perl by example. However, the Cookbook's first edition has been showing its age; it dates back to perl version 5.004. (Yes, 5.004.) Since 1998, the language has matured significantly. Enter the second edition, out in August 2003, which covers up to perl 5.8. So- a quarter-inch thicker, 175 pages longer, and $10(USD; $21 CAD) more expensive, should you buy it? My recommendation for anybody who can afford the price tag[3] is a clear "yes". There are two new chapters- one on mod_perl (including Mason and Template Toolkit, two Apache extensions used with mod_perl) and one on XML, which gives ten useful recipes for such things as writing XML from data structures, validation, and reading and writing RSS (for website syndication). Content was rewritten throughout the second edition to accommodate Unicode, and to note modules which moved into core Perl from CPAN. The index is better and the binding appears to be stronger, which is good since the book spends so much time cracked open on my desk. According to the introduction[4], there are over 80 new recipes plus over 100 modified recipes. They are scattered throughout the chapters; I didn't see any chapters that were neglected for changes, which is good. But the numbers mean that half the recipes are not modified. Philosophically, are there any areas of Perl that have not progressed in the last five years? Shouldn't all the recipes include up-to-date practices? Two striking omissions seem to be: WWW::Mechanize, a "glue" module which makes web automation easier; and anything having to do with testing- there are no recipes discussing the excellent Test:: modules, many which are core Perl as of 5.8. However, practically speaking, a complete rewrite would have taken as long as Perl 6 to finish. That reality suggests that to keep up-to-date, you shouldn't rely only on dead trees, but also on the Perl community, one of the language's great strengths. That philosophical quibble aside, I can conclude that the Cookbook is a great way to learn features of the language, from the basic to the somewhat arcane; and to re-remember exactly how to accomplish that task you knew you saw a year ago but don't quite remember... Perl Cookbook, 2nd edition $US 49.95 / $CAD 77.95 [1] 334 in the first edition, to be exact, and 387 in the second. [2] Chapter titles for the second edition: 1. Strings 2. Numbers 3. Dates and Times 4. Arrays 5. Hashes 6. Pattern Matching 7. File Access 8. File Contents 9. Directories 10. Subroutines 11. References and Records 12. Packages, Libraries, and Modules 13. Classes, Objects, and Ties 14. Database Access 15. Interactivity 16. Process Management and Communication 17. Sockets 18. Internet Services 19. CGI Programming 20. Web Automation 21. mod_perl 22. XML [3] minus discounts - Robert Day can get it for us for something like $50CAD [4] I count only 53 more recipes, but they might have removed some, or my counting algorithm may have been different than O'Reilly's! -- http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From da at coder.com Sun Feb 29 07:02:56 2004 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:34 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Review: Perl Cookbook, 2nd ed. Message-ID: At Lloyd's suggestion, I've put the books list onto our website, at http://kw.pm.org/local/ . -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, lloyd carr wrote: > Could a list of the books in the lending library be put on kw.pm.org? > > On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:37:03 -0500 (EST) > > From: Daniel R. Allen > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > Subject: [kw-pm] Review: Perl Cookbook, 2nd ed. > > > > If there are any O'Reilly books you'd like to review, let > > me know and you can get a free review copy. They have been very good to > > us; we have a 10-book lending library due to "extra" books they've sent. > > Go O'Reilly! > > > > Review: Perl Cookbook 2nd edition > > > > The Perl Cookbook, by Tom Christianson and Nat Torkington, is probably > > the second book many Perl programmers buy, after "Programming Perl" or > > "Learning Perl." It's often the most dog-eared O'Reilly book a > > programmer will own. > > > > It occupies its place of honour on the shelf for a good reason. The > > Cookbook introduces hundreds of recipes[1] to cover all kinds of perl > > programming situations, from "How do I keep my own private module > > directory?" to "How do I build a binary tree?" to "How do I intercept > > Ctrl-C characters?" [2] Recipes range from half a page to half a dozen > > pages. > > > > Each recipe introduces the problem, shows a solution, discusses the > > solution in depth, and most refer the reader to other sources of > > solutions or documentation. The recipes are great for answering > > questions, but the in-depth discussions are where the book shines, > > teaching basic and advanced perl by example. > > > > However, the Cookbook's first edition has been showing its age; it > > dates back to perl version 5.004. (Yes, 5.004.) Since 1998, the > > language has matured significantly. Enter the second edition, out in > > August 2003, which covers up to perl 5.8. > > > > So- a quarter-inch thicker, 175 pages longer, and $10(USD; $21 CAD) > > more expensive, should you buy it? My recommendation for anybody who > > can afford the price tag[3] is a clear "yes". > > > > There are two new chapters- one on mod_perl (including Mason and > > Template Toolkit, two Apache extensions used with mod_perl) and one on > > XML, which gives ten useful recipes for such things as writing XML > > from data structures, validation, and reading and writing RSS (for > > website syndication). > > > > Content was rewritten throughout the second edition to accommodate > > Unicode, and to note modules which moved into core Perl from CPAN. > > The index is better and the binding appears to be stronger, which is > > good since the book spends so much time cracked open on my desk. > > > > According to the introduction[4], there are over 80 new recipes plus > > over 100 modified recipes. They are scattered throughout the > > chapters; I didn't see any chapters that were neglected for changes, > > which is good. > > > > But the numbers mean that half the recipes are not modified. > > Philosophically, are there any areas of Perl that have not progressed > > in the last five years? Shouldn't all the recipes include up-to-date > > practices? Two striking omissions seem to be: WWW::Mechanize, a > > "glue" module which makes web automation easier; and anything having > > to do with testing- there are no recipes discussing the excellent > > Test:: modules, many which are core Perl as of 5.8. > > > > However, practically speaking, a complete rewrite would have taken as > > long as Perl 6 to finish. That reality suggests that to keep > > up-to-date, you shouldn't rely only on dead trees, but also on the Perl > > community, one of the language's great strengths. > > > > That philosophical quibble aside, I can conclude that the Cookbook is > > a great way to learn features of the language, from the basic to the > > somewhat arcane; and to re-remember exactly how to accomplish that > > task you knew you saw a year ago but don't quite remember... > > > > Perl Cookbook, 2nd edition > > $US 49.95 / $CAD 77.95 > > > > [1] 334 in the first edition, to be exact, and 387 in the second. > > > > [2] Chapter titles for the second edition: > > 1. Strings > > 2. Numbers > > 3. Dates and Times > > 4. Arrays > > 5. Hashes > > 6. Pattern Matching > > 7. File Access > > 8. File Contents > > 9. Directories > > 10. Subroutines > > 11. References and Records > > 12. Packages, Libraries, and Modules > > 13. Classes, Objects, and Ties > > 14. Database Access > > 15. Interactivity > > 16. Process Management and Communication > > 17. Sockets > > 18. Internet Services > > 19. CGI Programming > > 20. Web Automation > > 21. mod_perl > > 22. XML > > > > [3] minus discounts - Robert Day can get it for us for something like > > $50CAD > > > > [4] I count only 53 more recipes, but they might have removed some, or my > > counting algorithm may have been different than O'Reilly's! > > > > -- > > http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org >