From pm at datademons.com Sat Mar 1 00:48:47 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] bioperl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excuse my ignorance. WTF is bioperl? :) Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Has anybody on the list done anything with bioperl? If so, I would love > to have a chat over coffee or something. > > Happy Friday, > > Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Sat Mar 1 09:22:15 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] bioperl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Courtesy the http://www.bioperl.org/ FAQ: -- Q1.1: What is Bioperl? A: Bioperl is a tookit of perl modules useful in building bioinformatics solutions in perl. -- Bioinformatics is the science of using information to study biology; it is practiced by biologists, computer scientists, and, well, by bioinformaticians, some of who are coming out of the U of W bioinformatics program. I'm just getting started working for one of the profs at the U of W who runs the program, and I'd hoped I could chat with somebody other than him about bioperl because he's more of a biopython guy. Happy Saturday, Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Sat, 1 Mar 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > Excuse my ignorance. > > WTF is bioperl? :) > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Has anybody on the list done anything with bioperl? If so, I would love > > to have a chat over coffee or something. > > > > Happy Friday, > > > > Daniel > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Sat Mar 1 09:40:42 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] O'Reilly Safari promotion Message-ID: Hi, This has been sitting in my inbox for a while. Let me know if you want to review Safari, Oreilly's books-online program, either in exchange for a year's free subscription to 10 books, or for freebies. Could be fun. Let me know if you're interested in doing a full review. -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: O'Reilly Safari promotion We're launching a great new Safari program for user groups called "Go On Safari." Here's how it works: -You post a 'Go On Safari' banner ad on your user group web site, and/or run an announcement for your members in a print or email newsletter or on your email discussion list. The banner ads are available at the Safari User Group Resource page at http://ug.oreilly.com/banners/safari -A member of your user group (you or someone you designate) reviews Safari. That person will get a free one-year subscription if they publish a review of Safari within 60 days of opening their account. (It can be published in your newsletter, on your website or email list, or in another publication altogether; please send reviews to me.) -We also have an introductory program just for user group members. To enter, any of your members who sign up for our Safari 14-day free trial email (including the official reviewer) send comments on their experiences, or tips and tricks for how they used Safari (it only needs to be 2 sentences long, but it may be longer) to safari_talk@oreilly.com. -Every week someone will be chosen from the tips or comments submitted to receive fun stuff from O'Reilly (T-shirts, book bags, other surprises). If a member of your user group is selected, your group receives free gifts, too. Whatever the individual member receives, your UG will get one, too, to give away at your next meeting, or use however you see fit. Recipients--and their comments--will be announced in the User Group Newsletter. -One lucky group will be selected for an onsite speaking visit from our fearless leader, Tim O'Reilly (http://tim.oreilly.com/). About the O'Reilly Network Safari Bookshelf: If you're not yet familiar with the O'Reilly Network Safari Bookshelf, it's worth a look. With Safari, you can access over 1,000 technical books from the top technical book publishers--O'Reilly (of course), Pearson, and Microsoft Press. There is an extremely cool search capability that allows you to search through all 1,000+ books for the answer you need--or even code samples--in minutes. Check it out at: http://www.oreilly.com/safari/ug Once you've chosen your Safari reviewer, please send me an email with the subject heading Safari Subscription, listing your reviewer's name, address, email, and user group. If someone other than your reviewer should receive the banner ad or announcement text, please include that in your email. Your reviewer will receive a Safari Welcome email containing their user name and password within a week. I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of the O'Reilly Network Safari Bookshelf. Thanks, Marsee From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sat Mar 1 10:09:07 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] bioperl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh no! Not another biopython guy, I thought superman destroyed them all :-) On Sat, 1 Mar 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 10:22:15 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: Justin Wheeler > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] bioperl? > > Courtesy the http://www.bioperl.org/ FAQ: > > -- > Q1.1: What is Bioperl? > A: Bioperl is a tookit of perl modules useful in building bioinformatics > solutions in perl. > -- > > Bioinformatics is the science of using information to study biology; it is > practiced by biologists, computer scientists, and, well, by > bioinformaticians, some of who are coming out of the U of W bioinformatics > program. > > I'm just getting started working for one of the profs at the U of W who > runs the program, and I'd hoped I could chat with somebody other than him > about bioperl because he's more of a biopython guy. > > Happy Saturday, > > Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > On Sat, 1 Mar 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > Excuse my ignorance. > > > > WTF is bioperl? :) > > > > Regards, > > Justin Wheeler > > > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > > > On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > > Has anybody on the list done anything with bioperl? If so, I would love > > > to have a chat over coffee or something. > > > > > > Happy Friday, > > > > > > Daniel > > > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From rpjday at mindspring.com Sat Mar 8 06:36:34 2003 From: rpjday at mindspring.com (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] almost time for another o'reilly book order Message-ID: i need a couple new books, so if we can get an order of >= 10 books, i can put in another order. to keep things simple, given the similarity between my discount and the exchange rate, i'll just say that the price of books will be in canadian dollars whatever the US dollar price of the book is. sound fair? so if i can get enough interest, i can do another order. rday From data64 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 10 15:45:09 2003 From: data64 at yahoo.com (data) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perl 6 Apocalypse release! Message-ID: <20030310214509.36792.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> This one talks about subroutines. http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2003/03/07/apocalypse6.html Looks like most of the limitations in the Perl5 subroutine prototypes have been addressed. data64 ___________________________________________________________ Sent by ePrompter, the premier email notification software. Free download at http://www.ePrompter.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From da at coder.com Tue Mar 11 13:01:31 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Next Meeting Message-ID: Hi All, Our next meeting is Thursday the 20th of March at 7pm. This time around, we've made arrangements to meet back at the U of W. Location: Davis Centre room 2305 Topic: Perl Q&A. We'll discuss: Finding things on the CPAN, the Schwartzian Transform, and perhaps the latest Apocolypse from Larry Wall concerning perl 6. Parking: The closest parking is probably the 'B' lot, which has public parking after 4pm for $2 (coin only). I believe the enterence is on Philips Street, just after the University Plaza. More info: http://www.uwaterloo.ca/map/map.html -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From pnadeau at bigpanda.com Tue Mar 11 16:29:08 2003 From: pnadeau at bigpanda.com (Phil Nadeau) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] TIGER interpretation program and map renderer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030311142119.P44678-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com> Hi all, I finally found the TIGER rendering app I was thinking of at the February meeting. The language is called 'icon', and its homepage is: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/ They have a program called 'tgrmap' that takes the TIGER text files and spits out a neatly rendered street map. http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/oddsends/tiger/ Recall that TIGER is the US Census free GIS database for practically all surveyed line data in the 50 US states and DC. They have an online browser at http://www.census.gov/geo/www/tiger/ I hope someone can make something useful and Perl-y out of it! --Phil From marko at isfoundhere.com Fri Mar 14 17:06:36 2003 From: marko at isfoundhere.com (Marko Vidberg) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perl web work Message-ID: <200303141806.36189.marko@isfoundhere.com> Do any of you guy perl guys have jobs as perl web developers? If so, what kind of salary is reasonable in the KW area? I had a Perl/MySQL programming job for 2 years with a small company in Waterloo and had a salary of $38K... and I wouldn't even consider myself highly skilled with Perl (possibly intermediate level). I have been doing freelance for the last few years and recently tried applying for a similiar perl programming position and they told me I was asking an unreasonable amount, saying that their best Perl programmers get $25-30K. Are salaries really that bad these days? I think I'll just stick with freelancing. From da at coder.com Fri Mar 14 17:20:35 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perl web work In-Reply-To: <200303141806.36189.marko@isfoundhere.com> Message-ID: Good golly. I should hope that company is an abberation. $12-15/hr? for their best perl programmers? I've not had a fulltime job here (yet!) but I was told recently by a recruiter that $50K is a fair going rate for mid-range perl programmers in Toronto. YMMV. -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Marko Vidberg wrote: > Do any of you guy perl guys have jobs as perl web developers? If so, what > kind of salary is reasonable in the KW area? I had a Perl/MySQL programming > job for 2 years with a small company in Waterloo and had a salary of $38K... > and I wouldn't even consider myself highly skilled with Perl (possibly > intermediate level). I have been doing freelance for the last few years and > recently tried applying for a similiar perl programming position and they > told me I was asking an unreasonable amount, saying that their best Perl > programmers get $25-30K. Are salaries really that bad these days? I think > I'll just stick with freelancing. > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From pm at datademons.com Fri Mar 14 19:49:13 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perl web work In-Reply-To: <200303141806.36189.marko@isfoundhere.com> Message-ID: That's the silliest thing I've heard in my life. My job pays $45k, and I've always complained about being slightly low. I'd consider myself mid-high level Perl, but still, that's ... nuts. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Marko Vidberg wrote: > Do any of you guy perl guys have jobs as perl web developers? If so, what > kind of salary is reasonable in the KW area? I had a Perl/MySQL programming > job for 2 years with a small company in Waterloo and had a salary of $38K... > and I wouldn't even consider myself highly skilled with Perl (possibly > intermediate level). I have been doing freelance for the last few years and > recently tried applying for a similiar perl programming position and they > told me I was asking an unreasonable amount, saying that their best Perl > programmers get $25-30K. Are salaries really that bad these days? I think > I'll just stick with freelancing. > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From daniel at coder.com Mon Mar 24 10:06:23 2003 From: daniel at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] books Message-ID: As part of the book-review program, O'Reilly has sent along five other books that we didn't specifically request. So, our group seems to be developing a little library. We have: perl graphics programming embedding perl in html with mason perl and lwp the perl cd bookshelf web services with perl ..as well as the two review books. At last week's meeting we briefly discussed donating books to the Waterloo and/or Kitchener public libraries. I've found out it makes more sense to give them to waterloo; they give free cards to kitchener residents, but the converse is not true. For the meantime, these books are sitting on my shelf; anybody who wants to borrow any of 'em, give me a shout. Remember that Oreilly also has free month-long trial periods of Safari, their online library of nearly ALL their books (full content), as well as some other publishers. In the free trial you can look at 10 books of your choice. -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From da at coder.com Mon Mar 31 11:32:01 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Toronto Perl Mongers Message-ID: Hi there, We've gotten another *ping* from Toronto, asking if we want to do a talk swap. Perhaps some time this summer, we can invite one of their speakers here. They are still working out an entire list of the talks they've given, but to whet your appitite, last month somebody had: An Introduction to Class:DBI ("Class::DBI is an abstraction layer that sits on top of DBI and makes it easy to write common database-driven Perl code. It removes the SQL from your Perl code and lets you deal with your data at the application level.") And in the fall, there was a presentation on building PDFs on the fly, which sounded sort of interesting. Do either of these jump out at you as things you'd like to see presented here? Both sound great to me... Also, if you have presented at our group, are you interested in going to Toronto to give the same talk again? For example, if nobody else stops me, I'd be interested in giving my Style Guides talk, possibly in late April as prep for giving it again at YAPC::NA::Ottawa in May. Assuming I don't convince myself it's too boring a talk and you-all are just too polite to tell me. :-> -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From akohlsmith-kwpm at benshaw.com Mon Mar 31 13:49:16 2003 From: akohlsmith-kwpm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Toronto Perl Mongers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200303311449.17238@-mixdown.ca> > Also, if you have presented at our group, are you interested in going to > Toronto to give the same talk again? For example, if nobody else stops > me, I'd be interested in giving my Style Guides talk, possibly in late > April as prep for giving it again at YAPC::NA::Ottawa in May. Assuming I > don't convince myself it's too boring a talk and you-all are just too > polite to tell me. :-> I've asked my crew and they'd be willing to do the XWT <--> Frontier::RPC --> Generate PDF presentation again if it's not deemed too far off from Perl. Regards, Andrew From pm at datademons.com Mon Mar 31 14:21:10 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Toronto Perl Mongers In-Reply-To: <200303311449.17238@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: I haven't seen said presentation, but I've been told it's some *really* interesting stuff, so I'd be very interested in seeing it again -- even if that means travelling to Toronto or whereever it may happen. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > Also, if you have presented at our group, are you interested in going to > > Toronto to give the same talk again? For example, if nobody else stops > > me, I'd be interested in giving my Style Guides talk, possibly in late > > April as prep for giving it again at YAPC::NA::Ottawa in May. Assuming I > > don't convince myself it's too boring a talk and you-all are just too > > polite to tell me. :-> > > I've asked my crew and they'd be willing to do the XWT <--> Frontier::RPC --> > Generate PDF presentation again if it's not deemed too far off from Perl. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Mon Mar 31 15:09:57 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] cpan.org taken over? Message-ID: It looks like cpan.org has been taken over... by Matt's Script Archive? -Daniel http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From pm at datademons.com Mon Mar 31 15:21:59 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] cpan.org taken over? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: HAHAHAHAHAH... good ol' CPAN and their April Fool's jokes. Last year's was "CJAN" .. comprehensive Java archive network. They've outdone themselves this year. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > It looks like cpan.org has been taken over... by Matt's Script Archive? > > -Daniel > > http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From indy at indigostar.com Mon Mar 31 15:23:05 2003 From: indy at indigostar.com (Indy Singh) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Re: [tpm] cpan.org taken over? References: Message-ID: <037901c2f7cb$b8ff3530$066fa8c0@singh.ca> That is so funny. Someone has replaced index.html, buy they have been considerate enough to point all the links back to the original cpan.org. Indy Singh IndigoSTAR Software -- www.indigostar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel R. Allen" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:09 PM Subject: [tpm] cpan.org taken over? > It looks like cpan.org has been taken over... by Matt's Script Archive? > > -Daniel > > http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > ================================================= > This email appears to originate from the Toronto Perl Mongers Listserver. > > Listserv : tpm@to.pm.org > Administrative queries: owner-tpm@to.pm.org > > > From legrady at rogers.com Mon Mar 31 17:56:30 2003 From: legrady at rogers.com (Tom Legrady) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Re: [tpm] cpan.org taken over? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049154990.1908.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> I noticed that this afternoon ... but click on CGI/Perl Cookbook, in the lower left part of the page ... and you get taken to CPAN anyway. I must say, the site was more response when I was the only one there :-) Other sites by Matt: CGI Resource Index - 3,000+ CGI Scripts! PHP Resource Index - 650+ PHP Scripts! CGI/Perl Cookbook - co-author, 7 scripts On Mon, 2003-03-31 at 16:09, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > It looks like cpan.org has been taken over... by Matt's Script Archive? > > -Daniel > > http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > ================================================= > This email appears to originate from the Toronto Perl Mongers Listserver. > > Listserv : tpm@to.pm.org > Administrative queries: owner-tpm@to.pm.org -- Tom Legrady From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Mar 31 19:00:08 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] cpan.org taken over? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What the heck!?! On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:09:57 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Cc: tpm@to.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] cpan.org taken over? > > It looks like cpan.org has been taken over... by Matt's Script Archive? > > -Daniel > > http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From da at coder.com Mon Mar 31 18:57:10 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:29 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Re: [tpm] cpan.org taken over? In-Reply-To: <1049154990.1908.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: ...in case there was any doubt as to the "takeover": CPAN is maintained by a Finnish person; the main server is located in Helsinki; ...think: time-zones. :-) Happy March 31st, -Daniel On 31 Mar 2003, Tom Legrady wrote: > I noticed that this afternoon ... but click on CGI/Perl Cookbook, in the > lower left part of the page ... and you get taken to CPAN anyway. I must > say, the site was more response when I was the only one there :-) > > Other sites by Matt: CGI Resource Index > - 3,000+ CGI Scripts! > PHP Resource Index > - 650+ PHP Scripts! > CGI/Perl Cookbook > - co-author, 7 scripts > > On Mon, 2003-03-31 at 16:09, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > It looks like cpan.org has been taken over... by Matt's Script Archive? > > > > -Daniel > > > > http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > > > ================================================= > > This email appears to originate from the Toronto Perl Mongers Listserver. > > > > Listserv : tpm@to.pm.org > > Administrative queries: owner-tpm@to.pm.org > -- > Tom Legrady > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm >