From da at coder.com Sun Jun 1 19:00:35 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, you know what Douglas Adams said about Thursdays, after all. (the planet was blown up on a Thursday in Hichhiker's Guide). OK; so far we have: a talk-back about YAPC Canada; and maybe something food-related. (Either during (order-in pizza perhaps) or directly after.) And not trying to bring in a Torontonian because it's summer and that's too taxing on the brain for us and for them. More tech content? If you want, I could un-obfuscate some obfuscated perl; only briefly, because I know the topic isn't exciting to everybody. And personally I can only look at a little obfuscated perl before my brain explodes... Lloyd, did I remember that you had some code you wanted somebody to look at? Maybe not publically. :-) I could say a little about LWP, which is the World-Wide Web library for Perl, useful for all sorts of screen-scraping. -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com On Sat, 31 May 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > The days they're on are normally good days for me.. it's just coincidental > that the last few times have turned out to be bad -- had tickets to a > hockey game, sister was in a car accident (she's ok), and a family > birthday. > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- > E Pluribus Modem > > On Sat, 31 May 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > > > So what day is good for you Justin? > > It's summer we're flexible and we always like to meet new Perl people :-) > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > > > Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:58:21 -0400 (EDT) > > > From: Justin Wheeler > > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > > > > > I'm not a fan of beer, but I'll have Coke and wings myself. ;) > > > > > > ... I'm still yet to come to my first meeting.. been a member for a short > > > while, but thus far, meetings have fallen on absolutely terrible days for > > > me. > > > > > > I'm hoping to make it to the next one though. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Justin Wheeler > > > > > > -- > > > Never let your mind wander. It's too small to be out on its own. > > > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > > > > > > > I'll be there. > > > > > > > > Food always sounds good :-) > > > > > > > > The Testing talk by Michael Graham was excellent, so it would be a shame > > > > to waste it, we should maybe hold off till the fall when we have a better > > > > chance of a good turnout. > > > > > > > > I suggest we keep the summer meetings on the lighter side, beer on the > > > > patio anyone :-) > > > > > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:33:35 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > From: Daniel R. Allen > > > > > To: Arguile > > > > > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > > > > > > > > > I can ask Toronto.pm members who said they'd love to come up to give a > > > > > talk, whether June is good for them. Though, I'm a bit concerned about > > > > > whether our summer attendance might be light; I don't want to have > > > > > somebody visit and only 4 of us show!... > > > > > > > > > > Maybe could I get a show of hands from people who are currently planning > > > > > to come to our meeting on the 19th? Just drop me an email if you'd like > > > > > to come; not a firm committment. I'll wait a few days then if there are > > > > > more than, say, 6, ask Toronto folx. > > > > > > > > > > A question for list discussion: would a different day of week, or an > > > > > earlier meeting followed by going somewhere for food, make it more > > > > > attractive? :-) > > > > > > > > > > In case you're curious, we've gotten offers for talks on Testing or > > > > > Class::DBI from Michael Graham; and "building PDFs on the fly" from > > > > > Richard Dice. Any of these sound great; I missed both of Michael's talks > > > > > at YAPC::Canada. > > > > > > > > > > -Daniel > > > > > > > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > > > > > > > On 29 May 2003, Arguile wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2003-05-28 at 15:06, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While we're at it, last meeting we had in town, we talked briefly about > > > > > > > > mod_perl as a possible topic for a talk. Is whomever was the authority on > > > > > > > > that willing to put something together? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good question. ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I've been putting something together for that. I just realised > > > > > > however that I have to be at a wedding rehearsal that night... > > > > > > > > > > > > I can do it for the July one or if someone else familiar with mod_perl > > > > > > wants the slides I'm preparing to present that's possible. But they > > > > > > wouldn't work as stand alone, the presenter would need to be at least > > > > > > pretty familiar w/ mod_perl. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > > > > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From scruss at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 1 21:34:53 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDAB7CD.1080302@sympatico.ca> Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > I could say a little about LWP, which is the World-Wide Web library for > Perl, useful for all sorts of screen-scraping. as long as you keep within the terms of use for the content ... Stewart (who works for probably the most screen-scraped company in the world) From da at coder.com Mon Jun 2 08:23:16 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: <3EDAB7CD.1080302@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > I could say a little about LWP, which is the World-Wide Web library for > > Perl, useful for all sorts of screen-scraping. On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > as long as you keep within the terms of use for the content ... > > Stewart > > (who works for probably the most screen-scraped company in the world) Gee Stewart, I didn't realize that website content theft was a big issue with the Toronto wind-turbine co-op... Oh. Probably a different company... Seriously, though; you're right; and even if a site doesn't have an explicit terms-of-use document, there are still copyright issues depending on what you're doing with your screen-scraped pages. Just goes to show how legit I've gone; I didn't even consider the negative side of 'screen-scraping' when I wrote that. My three most recent contracts all involved legit screen-scraping; and last night when I mentioned LWP, it was on my mind because I'm considering a little script to simplify some repetitive actions with Mailman (which runs our mailing list). -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From pm at datademons.com Mon Jun 2 09:34:32 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe that could be a part of the subject. The legalities in Canada re: screenscraping, and using what you've scraped on your own site, etc. e.g., I scrape news.google.ca and grab the headlines and links from it for my site. Probably not legal since I don't link directly to google from it, and I do link to the news sites. But... I'm doing to them what they're doing to those news companies. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- E-mail returned to sender -- insufficient voltage. On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > I could say a little about LWP, which is the World-Wide Web library for > > > Perl, useful for all sorts of screen-scraping. > > On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > > as long as you keep within the terms of use for the content ... > > > > Stewart > > > > (who works for probably the most screen-scraped company in the world) > > Gee Stewart, I didn't realize that website content theft was a big issue > with the Toronto wind-turbine co-op... > > Oh. Probably a different company... > > Seriously, though; you're right; and even if a site doesn't have an > explicit terms-of-use document, there are still copyright issues depending > on what you're doing with your screen-scraped pages. > > Just goes to show how legit I've gone; I didn't even consider the negative > side of 'screen-scraping' when I wrote that. My three most recent > contracts all involved legit screen-scraping; and last night when I > mentioned LWP, it was on my mind because I'm considering a little script > to simplify some repetitive actions with Mailman (which runs our mailing > list). > > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Mon Jun 2 09:48:04 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306021048.04437@-mixdown.ca> > e.g., I scrape news.google.ca and grab the headlines and links from it > for my site. Probably not legal since I don't link directly to google > from it, and I do link to the news sites. But... I'm doing to them what > they're doing to those news companies. Google offers an API for running google searches free of charge, so long as it's noncommercial (and they charge for the API for commercial, so it's not like it's not available) -- I am not certain if the news part is part of it, but it may be worth checking out. Regards, Andrew From pm at datademons.com Mon Jun 2 09:52:44 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: <200306021048.04437@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: It isn't. I e-mailed them and asked. They said that there is currently no API or anything available for the news system yet as it is still beta and they haven't gotten to that yet. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- "640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981 On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > e.g., I scrape news.google.ca and grab the headlines and links from it > > for my site. Probably not legal since I don't link directly to google > > from it, and I do link to the news sites. But... I'm doing to them what > > they're doing to those news companies. > > Google offers an API for running google searches free of charge, so long as > it's noncommercial (and they charge for the API for commercial, so it's not > like it's not available) -- I am not certain if the news part is part of > it, but it may be worth checking out. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From scruss at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 2 10:02:00 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] screen scraping Message-ID: <20030602150200.LYOW25351.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > Oh. Probably a different company... Yes. We provide exchange rates, amongst other things. We have the interesting challenge of making pages difficult to screen-scrape, but still be accessible. Stewart From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Jun 2 23:11:31 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sounds good Daniel :-) I'll slip that bit of code to you back channel, when I find it, I might want to turn it into a talk on rapid-prototyping power of perl and/or how to turn a problem into an algorithm and an algorithm into Perl. On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:00:35 -0400 (EDT) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: Justin Wheeler > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > Well, you know what Douglas Adams said about Thursdays, after all. > (the planet was blown up on a Thursday in Hichhiker's Guide). > > OK; so far we have: a talk-back about YAPC Canada; and maybe something > food-related. (Either during (order-in pizza perhaps) or directly after.) > And not trying to bring in a Torontonian because it's summer and that's > too taxing on the brain for us and for them. > > More tech content? > > If you want, I could un-obfuscate some obfuscated perl; only briefly, > because I know the topic isn't exciting to everybody. And personally I can > only look at a little obfuscated perl before my brain explodes... > > Lloyd, did I remember that you had some code you wanted somebody to look > at? Maybe not publically. :-) > > I could say a little about LWP, which is the World-Wide Web library for > Perl, useful for all sorts of screen-scraping. > > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > On Sat, 31 May 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > The days they're on are normally good days for me.. it's just coincidental > > that the last few times have turned out to be bad -- had tickets to a > > hockey game, sister was in a car accident (she's ok), and a family > > birthday. > > > > Regards, > > Justin Wheeler > > > > -- > > E Pluribus Modem > > > > On Sat, 31 May 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > > > > > So what day is good for you Justin? > > > It's summer we're flexible and we always like to meet new Perl people :-) > > > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:58:21 -0400 (EDT) > > > > From: Justin Wheeler > > > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > > > > > > > I'm not a fan of beer, but I'll have Coke and wings myself. ;) > > > > > > > > ... I'm still yet to come to my first meeting.. been a member for a short > > > > while, but thus far, meetings have fallen on absolutely terrible days for > > > > me. > > > > > > > > I'm hoping to make it to the next one though. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Justin Wheeler > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Never let your mind wander. It's too small to be out on its own. > > > > > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'll be there. > > > > > > > > > > Food always sounds good :-) > > > > > > > > > > The Testing talk by Michael Graham was excellent, so it would be a shame > > > > > to waste it, we should maybe hold off till the fall when we have a better > > > > > chance of a good turnout. > > > > > > > > > > I suggest we keep the summer meetings on the lighter side, beer on the > > > > > patio anyone :-) > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 29 May 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:33:35 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > > From: Daniel R. Allen > > > > > > To: Arguile > > > > > > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > > > > > > > > > > > I can ask Toronto.pm members who said they'd love to come up to give a > > > > > > talk, whether June is good for them. Though, I'm a bit concerned about > > > > > > whether our summer attendance might be light; I don't want to have > > > > > > somebody visit and only 4 of us show!... > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe could I get a show of hands from people who are currently planning > > > > > > to come to our meeting on the 19th? Just drop me an email if you'd like > > > > > > to come; not a firm committment. I'll wait a few days then if there are > > > > > > more than, say, 6, ask Toronto folx. > > > > > > > > > > > > A question for list discussion: would a different day of week, or an > > > > > > earlier meeting followed by going somewhere for food, make it more > > > > > > attractive? :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > In case you're curious, we've gotten offers for talks on Testing or > > > > > > Class::DBI from Michael Graham; and "building PDFs on the fly" from > > > > > > Richard Dice. Any of these sound great; I missed both of Michael's talks > > > > > > at YAPC::Canada. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29 May 2003, Arguile wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2003-05-28 at 15:06, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While we're at it, last meeting we had in town, we talked briefly about > > > > > > > > > mod_perl as a possible topic for a talk. Is whomever was the authority on > > > > > > > > > that willing to put something together? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good question. ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I've been putting something together for that. I just realised > > > > > > > however that I have to be at a wedding rehearsal that night... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can do it for the July one or if someone else familiar with mod_perl > > > > > > > wants the slides I'm preparing to present that's possible. But they > > > > > > > wouldn't work as stand alone, the presenter would need to be at least > > > > > > > pretty familiar w/ mod_perl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > > > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > > > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Jun 2 23:13:51 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: <3EDAB7CD.1080302@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: And the most screen scraped company in the world is? On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 22:34:53 -0400 > From: Stewart C. Russell > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > I could say a little about LWP, which is the World-Wide Web library for > > Perl, useful for all sorts of screen-scraping. > > as long as you keep within the terms of use for the content ... > > Stewart > > (who works for probably the most screen-scraped company in the world) > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Jun 2 23:26:02 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: <200306021048.04437@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: Which is why we need open source content as well as software. If you have info that you want to give back to the community publish it in xml, don't make people scrape for it ;-) On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:48:04 -0400 > From: Andrew Kohlsmith > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > > e.g., I scrape news.google.ca and grab the headlines and links from it > > for my site. Probably not legal since I don't link directly to google > > from it, and I do link to the news sites. But... I'm doing to them what > > they're doing to those news companies. > > Google offers an API for running google searches free of charge, so long as > it's noncommercial (and they charge for the API for commercial, so it's not > like it's not available) -- I am not certain if the news part is part of > it, but it may be worth checking out. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Tue Jun 3 07:58:32 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306030858.33036@-mixdown.ca> > Which is why we need open source content as well as software. > If you have info that you want to give back to the community publish it > in xml, don't make people scrape for it ;-) Amen! RDF and (more generally) raw XML availability should almost be required, not optional, IMO. Regards, Andrew From scruss at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 3 09:03:14 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? Message-ID: <20030603140314.VLZQ22045.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > Amen! RDF and (more generally) raw XML > availability should almost be > required, not optional, IMO. we supply XML, it's just that we're perceived as having the audacity to charge for it. What's a guy with commercially valuable content to do? ;-) Stewart From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Tue Jun 3 09:25:47 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: <20030603140314.VLZQ22045.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> References: <20030603140314.VLZQ22045.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Message-ID: <200306031025.47333@-mixdown.ca> > we supply XML, it's just that we're perceived as having the audacity to > charge for it. What's a guy with commercially valuable content to do? ;-) There's nothing wrong with charging for the XML; Does anyone know you have that feature? (I have no idea who you are, but that's neither here nor there :-) The guys who want it for free or noncomercial would have to resort to scraping, which is probably fine. I'm a big fan of free for noncommercial but it's a very fine line and you're constantly policing then, unless you make your XML available on an HTTP passworded URL. At least then you can slap the commercial guy's pee pee's if they claim it was noncommercial and it turns out it wasn't. I dunno, still seems like too much work. :-) Regards, Andrew From cs_palkar at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 09:43:25 2003 From: cs_palkar at yahoo.com (Charu Palkar) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Test! Message-ID: <20030603144325.62276.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> Just testing! Thanx Charu -- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From da at coder.com Tue Jun 3 09:10:22 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] paying for well-formed content In-Reply-To: <20030603140314.VLZQ22045.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > > > Amen! RDF and (more generally) raw XML > > availability should almost be > > required, not optional, IMO. > > we supply XML, it's just that we're perceived as having the audacity to charge for it. What's a guy with commercially valuable content to do? ;-) This convseration ties neatly into last night's LUG meeting on Docbook, the XML "application" for computer documentation. Rick M. (who isn't on this list, but I'm CC'ing this message to) mentioned the OED, Oxford English Dictionary, which pioneered some of the complicated markup work that led to XML. They basically translated 4100 pages of highly structured dictionary into an equally well-structured electronic format. They take their data seriously. The third edition is rumoured to have the word "Perl" in it, even. I did a bit of poking around. So now, at www.oed.com, they have a huge structured data-store, that's supposed to be really pretty to search and find the history of gazillions of words; but it costs something like $500US minimum to use it. The "teaser" at http://www.oed.com/cgi/display/wotd is pretty, but they have nothing to whet the appetites of programmers or database geeks. How are the companies to provide useful structured info, and still make money at it? I guess I don't really have a point. But I hope that google's experiment of providing a public API is wildly successful, so other organizations can give it a go as well. -Daniel From scruss at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 3 10:34:53 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Re: paying for well-formed content Message-ID: <20030603153453.WYNS15343.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > ... the OED, Oxford English Dictionary, which > pioneered some of the > complicated markup work that led to XML. I suppose you could say that. Oxford hold huge archives in what is essentially SGML without the DTD, and have done for years. XML pioneer Tim Bray worked with Oxford on getting their data in an easily worked format. > They basically translated 4100 > pages of highly structured dictionary ... highly lexically, or typographically structured (depending how old the data is), that is. Any attempt to make a complex dictionary conform to a DTD will fail, as research by Susan Armstrong in Geneva shows. And my bitter experience at a typesetting house (dictionary data; SQL; just say no) in Markham backs up. > ... equally well-structured electronic format. what a fun job transforming lexical databases to output! I've spent about five years of my life doing it. Mostly with Perl, too. > The third edition > is rumoured to have the word "Perl" in it, even. losers. I was there years ago: , and have the mail from Tom C. to prove it (somewhere). A well deserved casualty of the dotcom burst was xrefer.com, who paid money to license reference content, but supply it for free to browsers. They ain't doing as well as they wuz, to no-one's great surprise. Stewart From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Jun 3 17:48:45 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? In-Reply-To: <200306030858.33036@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: For the goverment I would say yes, we already paid to collect the information. A not for profit it would simply be a logical outcome of wanting to get the word out. A for profit company, well ... for profit companies are conflicted. On one hand they want to get the word out, on the other hand "why should we give this valuable information away for free?" If you see information as a revenue stream then it makes sense to obfuscate your content.( I believe it is shortsighted of them, but I would not compel anyone to make their content available in xml form, with the exception of public government information ) On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:58:32 -0400 > From: Andrew Kohlsmith > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] How was YAPC::CA? > > > Which is why we need open source content as well as software. > > If you have info that you want to give back to the community publish it > > in xml, don't make people scrape for it ;-) > > Amen! RDF and (more generally) raw XML availability should almost be > required, not optional, IMO. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Jun 3 18:02:15 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Test! In-Reply-To: <20030603144325.62276.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Testing, testing what, my reaction time ;-), your Yahoo account, the kw.pm mailing list? Enquiring minds want to know. On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Charu Palkar wrote: > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:43:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: Charu Palkar > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] Test! > > Just testing! > > Thanx > > Charu > -- > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > http://calendar.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Jun 3 18:09:13 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] paying for well-formed content In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I also without point, would like to ask how much public money went into the oed project, which I a member of the public would have to pay $500US to use? On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:10:22 -0400 (EDT) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: Stewart C. Russell , rickm@golden.net > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] paying for well-formed content > > On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > > Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > > > > > Amen! RDF and (more generally) raw XML > > > availability should almost be > > > required, not optional, IMO. > > > > we supply XML, it's just that we're perceived as having the audacity to charge for it. What's a guy with commercially valuable content to do? ;-) > > This convseration ties neatly into last night's LUG meeting on Docbook, > the XML "application" for computer documentation. > > Rick M. (who isn't on this list, but I'm CC'ing this message to) mentioned > the OED, Oxford English Dictionary, which pioneered some of the > complicated markup work that led to XML. They basically translated 4100 > pages of highly structured dictionary into an equally well-structured > electronic format. They take their data seriously. The third edition > is rumoured to have the word "Perl" in it, even. > > I did a bit of poking around. So now, at www.oed.com, they have a huge > structured data-store, that's supposed to be really pretty to search and > find the history of gazillions of words; but it costs something like > $500US minimum to use it. > > The "teaser" at http://www.oed.com/cgi/display/wotd is pretty, but they > have nothing to whet the appetites of programmers or database geeks. > > How are the companies to provide useful structured info, and still make > money at it? > > I guess I don't really have a point. But I hope that google's experiment > of providing a public API is wildly successful, so other organizations can > give it a go as well. > > -Daniel > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From scruss at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 3 20:02:37 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] paying for well-formed content In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDD452D.5050306@sympatico.ca> lloyd carr wrote: > > I also without point, would like to ask how much public money went into > the oed project, which I a member of the public would have to pay $500US > to use? probably very little. OUP is part of Oxford University, is somewhat cash-rich, and by dint of being basically older than everything, is a charity. But that's likely to change. Stewart From arguile at lucentstudios.com Mon Jun 9 02:50:29 2003 From: arguile at lucentstudios.com (Arguile) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] The mod_perl Talk Message-ID: <1055145030.535.54.camel@broadswd> I was writing some more of the presentation tonight and upon review, realised I might not be hitting the points people want. So I'd like to take a little informal survey of what areas people are interested in. As it currently stands the talk breaks down into these sections: Installing mod_perl Of the many, many methods possible I cover only the three easiest / most popular for brevity's sake. Binary install (both win32 and *nix), simple build of Apache + static mod_perl (without any other modules), and using APXS to add mod_perl as a DSO to existing apache installs (without having to recompile apache). Basic CGI under Apache::Registry and Apache::PerlRun The first of two sections on this. This one covers simply how to get it up and running without any in-depth explanation of why things work the way they do. What is mod_perl? A brief history of the evolution of HTTP servers from compiling in changes, to CGI, and then custom APIs. We then discuss persistant Perl interpretters, both the good and bad features. And basically describe what mod_perl does in high level terms. Apache::Registry Now that we have a brief understanding of peristant interpretters, we discuss how Apache::Registry works (at a pretty high level). Then we go into common traps and pitfalls of running CGIs under it, discuss clean coding practices, and explain why those pitfalls exist. Overview of Apache API and Architecture We get down and dirty and discuss the server architecture (the 1.3.x pre-forking model only, though I'll mention 2.x and other MPMs). Working up from our brief view of the server, we discuss the various phases the API exposes us to and what each is for. Illustrated by examples of which common modules run where and why. And of course giving the C and Perl handler names for each phase. We also mention the API's records/objects and give a few details on them. Response/Content Handlers We now discuss the all important content phase and the Apache request object (95% of all handler you write will be in this phase). The majority of the code snippets will be here, illustrating the standard look of a mod_perl handler and the special considerations mod_perl requires. We also discuss the Perl configuration directives in detail so we can run the modules/handlers we create. This is currently the largest bit of the talk. Question and Answer Obvious. Right now my weighting leans heavily toward explaining the API and writing custom handlers. Are more people interested in just speeding up their portable CGI code? Should I explain the traps in real detail or just mention they exist and say 'persistance' and 'forking' for answers? Or do we want a "How to install mod_perl in 90,000 different situations" talk? Heh. I can also add in configuring for multi-tier and load balancing, caching techniques, debugging, load testing, porting mod_perl modules to C, or other performance related issues if people want them. What do you guys want? (I should have asked this in detail before I started writing :) P.S. I appologize for any bad gammar or incoherent statements, it's almost 4:00am... From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Mon Jun 9 07:44:38 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] The mod_perl Talk In-Reply-To: <1055145030.535.54.camel@broadswd> References: <1055145030.535.54.camel@broadswd> Message-ID: <200306090844.38999@-mixdown.ca> > Installing mod_perl To me this should be as brief as possible, as you've pointed out already. The documentation explains it quite well and it's not all that difficult. It's what you use it for that really starts making my head spin. :-) > Basic CGI under Apache::Registry and Apache::PerlRun Perhaps a "Why use mod_perl for CGI?" would be beneficial too, in addition to "what does Apache::Registry and Apache::PerlRun do?" > What is mod_perl? Sounds perfect. I didn't know there were any disadvantages to a persistent interpreter aside from possible memory leaks. > Overview of Apache API and Architecture Cool; it'll be over my head I think but if it's pertinent to the understanding of mod_perl, I will try to make sense :-) > Response/Content Handlers Groovy. When is this talk? I need to mark it on my calendar. > Right now my weighting leans heavily toward explaining the API and > writing custom handlers. Are more people interested in just speeding up > their portable CGI code? Should I explain the traps in real detail or > just mention they exist and say 'persistance' and 'forking' for answers? I am mainly there for the "How to speed up my Perl CGI code" parts -- in particular XMLRPC, file I/O and forking external processes like fop. I would love to know any pitfalls and caveats when using these things with mod_perl. Also very handy would be dynamic mod_perl; I would like to use eval and whatever it is (I keep forgetting) to load up bits of perl and run them, and then free them when I need to unload/reload new changes, all within Perl's OO infrastructure. > Or do we want a "How to install mod_perl in 90,000 different situations" > talk? Heh. I can also add in configuring for multi-tier and load > balancing, caching techniques, debugging, load testing, porting mod_perl > modules to C, or other performance related issues if people want them. Personally I'd be interested in hearing of them, but not more than 5 or 10 minutes' worth, tops. Too much variety leads to GES (Glassy-Eyed Syndrome) -- a nonfatal but debilitating condition where everyone listening to your talk tunes it out since there is too much variety and not enough interest, causing any interesting bits of your talk to go unnoticed. :-) > P.S. I appologize for any bad gammar or incoherent statements, it's > almost 4:00am... Get to bed then, you'll need your energy for the talk. :-) Regards, Andrew From da at coder.com Fri Jun 13 19:37:41 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] June Meeting Announcement Message-ID: Announcing the June meeting of the KITCHENER-WATERLOO Perl Mongers - kw.pm - For enthusiasts of the Perl programming language Topics: Talk-back on YAPC::Canada and Parsing Web-Pages We will be discussing our impressions of YAPC::Canada; and I will (perhaps briefly) discuss screen-scraping using LWP::Simple and HTML::TokeParser. We will also make some effort to feed ourselves, either during the meeting, or if the meeting is short, go out afterward for drinks and food. Date/Time: Thursday the 17th of June, 2003 at 7pm Location: University of Waterloo Bioinformatics Lab, Davis Centre room 2305 For directions and a map, please check the FAQ: http://kw.pm.org/faq.html Parking: The closest legal parking is probably the 'B' lot, which has public parking after 4pm for $2 (coin only). The entrance is on Philips Street, just after the University Plaza from University Ave. From da at coder.com Fri Jun 13 19:44:56 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? Message-ID: Some people have expressed interest in breaking bread together while we discuss Perly things. Sounds great to me. My first inclination is to order int(n/4) pizzas, where n is the number of hungry attenders. Another option is n takeout-chinese items. Or perhaps int(n/100) cows. If you are interested, bring $5 to the meeting, and RSVP (off-list) with your top two choices, such as: 1) veggie pizza 2) anything chinese, hold the cow please. -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From pm at datademons.com Fri Jun 13 23:12:52 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: .. but.. but.. but.. what's wrong with cow? Cow is good. Moo. I'm in on it... (even though i'm responding on list. :) -- I mean, what's a better way than to meet the rest of kw-pm'ers? Regards, Justin Wheeler -- The name is Baud...... James Baud. On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Some people have expressed interest in breaking bread together while we > discuss Perly things. Sounds great to me. My first inclination is to > order int(n/4) pizzas, where n is the number of hungry attenders. > Another option is n takeout-chinese items. Or perhaps int(n/100) cows. > > If you are interested, bring $5 to the meeting, and RSVP (off-list) with > your top two choices, such as: > > 1) veggie pizza > 2) anything chinese, hold the cow please. > > > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Sat Jun 14 07:26:34 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306140826.34826@-mixdown.ca> > Moo. I'm in on it... (even though i'm responding on list. :) -- I mean, > what's a better way than to meet the rest of kw-pm'ers? Don't you mean meat the rest of the kw-pm'ers? :-) Regards, Andrew From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Mon Jun 16 12:35:26 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] creating distribution packages for modules Message-ID: <200306161335.26226@-mixdown.ca> Back in February, Daniel had brought up a thread on finding the locally installed modules. I have a similar question. How do you create distribution packages for perl modules? When I use CPAN I create packages that go into site_perl/[version]/i386-linux, but among the files written is perllocal.pod. I can use checkinstall to create packages without issue, it's just how (any) distribution packages for perl modules do it without screwing up perllocal.pod that is evading me. An example. Perl modules A, B, C and D are built (in that order) on Machine One. I use checkinstall to create [insert favourite distro here] packages for each module individually. (My favourite way: perl -MCPAN -e shell / test modulename ; look modulename ; checkinstall -S --nodoc --inspect ; exit) Now take those four modules and send them over to Machine Two. Using [insert favourite distro's package manager here], install modules C, D and B, in that order. the perllocal.pod file is now incorrect; it seems to think that modules A and B are installed, since that was what was installed at the time that the perllocal.pod file was written for module B on Machine One. freenode's #perl offered some help... the installer should only be appending a line to perllocal.pod, not overwriting it. Is that all there is to it? I can do that easily enough. This brings me to a second question: distro-installed perl modules are installed outside of site_perl; how do I do the same if I am making distro perl modules... I can hack it around easily enough, but I'm interested in the more correct method. Regards, Andrew From cs_palkar at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 10:34:27 2003 From: cs_palkar at yahoo.com (Charu Palkar) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] June Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030617153428.66526.qmail@web10406.mail.yahoo.com> > Date/Time: Thursday the 17th of June, 2003 at 7pm Well Thurs is 19th June 2003 So is the date Tue 17 June or Thur 19 June 2003. A quick response would be good. Thanx Charu Palkar -- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From da at coder.com Tue Jun 17 09:35:17 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] June Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: <20030617153428.66526.qmail@web10406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Whoops. Sorry about that; I'd blame my handwriting, if this info was ever on paper; alas, it wasn't. The website has it correctly, at least- we're meeting Thursday the 19th. -Daniel On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Charu Palkar wrote: > > > Date/Time: Thursday the 17th of June, 2003 at 7pm > > Well Thurs is 19th June 2003 > > So is the date Tue 17 June or Thur 19 June 2003. > > A quick response would be good. > > Thanx > > Charu Palkar > -- > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > From pm at datademons.com Tue Jun 17 10:50:50 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] June Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe my mailserver sucks, but I didn't get the original announcement e-mail.. can someone forward it to me please? Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Error reading FAT record: Try the SKINNY one? (Y/N) On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Whoops. Sorry about that; I'd blame my handwriting, if this info was ever > on paper; alas, it wasn't. > > The website has it correctly, at least- we're meeting Thursday the 19th. > > -Daniel > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Charu Palkar wrote: > > > > > > Date/Time: Thursday the 17th of June, 2003 at 7pm > > > > Well Thurs is 19th June 2003 > > > > So is the date Tue 17 June or Thur 19 June 2003. > > > > A quick response would be good. > > > > Thanx > > > > Charu Palkar > > -- > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Tue Jun 17 10:39:27 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] June Meeting Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/kw-pm/2003-June/000205.html On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > Maybe my mailserver sucks, but I didn't get the original announcement > e-mail.. can someone forward it to me please? > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- > Error reading FAT record: Try the SKINNY one? (Y/N) > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Whoops. Sorry about that; I'd blame my handwriting, if this info was ever > > on paper; alas, it wasn't. > > > > The website has it correctly, at least- we're meeting Thursday the 19th. > > > > -Daniel > > > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Charu Palkar wrote: > > > > > > > > > Date/Time: Thursday the 17th of June, 2003 at 7pm > > > > > > Well Thurs is 19th June 2003 > > > > > > So is the date Tue 17 June or Thur 19 June 2003. > > > > > > A quick response would be good. > > > > > > Thanx > > > > > > Charu Palkar > > > -- > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Jun 17 16:26:27 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] archive Message-ID: You mean all this stuff is being saved in an archive! Now I'll have to worry about what I say ;-) dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From da at coder.com Wed Jun 18 07:08:22 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? Message-ID: Just a reminder; this new experiment of ordering food for during our meeting REQUIRES YOUR INPUT. See below. Thus far, I've gotten one vote for "what's wrong with cow?" and one vote for "veggie pizza or curry-in-a-hurry". None of the people who said "yeah, that's a good idea" have RSVP'd with choices, except Andrew who's off the hook anyway because he can't make it tomorrow. :-( -Daniel On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Some people have expressed interest in breaking bread together while we > discuss Perly things. Sounds great to me. My first inclination is to > order int(n/4) pizzas, where n is the number of hungry attenders. > Another option is n takeout-chinese items. Or perhaps int(n/100) cows. > > If you are interested, bring $5 to the meeting, and RSVP (off-list) with > your top two choices, such as: > > 1) veggie pizza > 2) anything chinese, hold the cow please. > > > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > _______________________________________________ kw-pm mailing list kw-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm From pm at datademons.com Wed Jun 18 08:22:12 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am definitely not one for veggy anything. Red meat is good. My ideas are pizza (with normal toppings. ;)), wings, chinese, etc. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- The name is Baud...... James Baud. On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Just a reminder; this new experiment of ordering food for during our > meeting REQUIRES YOUR INPUT. See below. > > Thus far, I've gotten one vote for "what's wrong with cow?" and one vote > for "veggie pizza or curry-in-a-hurry". None of the people who said > "yeah, that's a good idea" have RSVP'd with choices, except Andrew who's > off the hook anyway because he can't make it tomorrow. :-( > > -Daniel > > On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Some people have expressed interest in breaking bread together while we > > discuss Perly things. Sounds great to me. My first inclination is to > > order int(n/4) pizzas, where n is the number of hungry attenders. > > Another option is n takeout-chinese items. Or perhaps int(n/100) cows. > > > > If you are interested, bring $5 to the meeting, and RSVP (off-list) with > > your top two choices, such as: > > > > 1) veggie pizza > > 2) anything chinese, hold the cow please. > > > > > > -Daniel > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Wed Jun 18 09:35:04 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:30 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] creating distribution packages for modules In-Reply-To: <200306161335.26226@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: Ah; so checkinstall makes a record of every file that is touched; which includes perllocal.pod; so it includes that as part of the package? I haven't ever created a perl package for $favourate_distribution, myself, but my understanding is that .deb packages do not touch perllocal.pod and .rpm packages leave it up to the package creator to manually edit the .pod. Or not update it, as the case may be. SuSE seems to do it the right way, with a standard convention to modify perllocal.pod: http://www.suse.de/~mmj/Package-Conventions/SuSE-Package-Conventions-3.html HTH. -Daniel On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > Back in February, Daniel had brought up a thread on finding the locally > installed modules. I have a similar question. > > How do you create distribution packages for perl modules? When I use CPAN I > create packages that go into site_perl/[version]/i386-linux, but among the > files written is perllocal.pod. I can use checkinstall to create packages > without issue, it's just how (any) distribution packages for perl modules > do it without screwing up perllocal.pod that is evading me. > > An example. > Perl modules A, B, C and D are built (in that order) on Machine One. I use > checkinstall to create [insert favourite distro here] packages for each > module individually. (My favourite way: perl -MCPAN -e shell / test > modulename ; look modulename ; checkinstall -S --nodoc --inspect ; exit) > > Now take those four modules and send them over to Machine Two. Using > [insert favourite distro's package manager here], install modules C, D and > B, in that order. > > the perllocal.pod file is now incorrect; it seems to think that modules A > and B are installed, since that was what was installed at the time that the > perllocal.pod file was written for module B on Machine One. > > freenode's #perl offered some help... the installer should only be > appending a line to perllocal.pod, not overwriting it. > > Is that all there is to it? I can do that easily enough. This brings me to > a second question: distro-installed perl modules are installed outside of > site_perl; how do I do the same if I am making distro perl modules... I > can hack it around easily enough, but I'm interested in the more correct > method. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Jun 18 17:18:49 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Curry sounds goooood. On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:08:22 -0400 (EDT) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? > > Just a reminder; this new experiment of ordering food for during our > meeting REQUIRES YOUR INPUT. See below. > > Thus far, I've gotten one vote for "what's wrong with cow?" and one vote > for "veggie pizza or curry-in-a-hurry". None of the people who said > "yeah, that's a good idea" have RSVP'd with choices, except Andrew who's > off the hook anyway because he can't make it tomorrow. :-( > > -Daniel > > On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Some people have expressed interest in breaking bread together while we > > discuss Perly things. Sounds great to me. My first inclination is to > > order int(n/4) pizzas, where n is the number of hungry attenders. > > Another option is n takeout-chinese items. Or perhaps int(n/100) cows. > > > > If you are interested, bring $5 to the meeting, and RSVP (off-list) with > > your top two choices, such as: > > > > 1) veggie pizza > > 2) anything chinese, hold the cow please. > > > > > > -Daniel > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Jun 18 17:20:26 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I like veggy, pizza with toppings, wings, chinese, etc. too. What a small world. On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:22:12 -0400 (EDT) > From: Justin Wheeler > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Meeting: Food? > > I am definitely not one for veggy anything. Red meat is good. > > My ideas are pizza (with normal toppings. ;)), wings, chinese, etc. > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- > The name is Baud...... James Baud. > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Just a reminder; this new experiment of ordering food for during our > > meeting REQUIRES YOUR INPUT. See below. > > > > Thus far, I've gotten one vote for "what's wrong with cow?" and one vote > > for "veggie pizza or curry-in-a-hurry". None of the people who said > > "yeah, that's a good idea" have RSVP'd with choices, except Andrew who's > > off the hook anyway because he can't make it tomorrow. :-( > > > > -Daniel > > > > On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > > Some people have expressed interest in breaking bread together while we > > > discuss Perly things. Sounds great to me. My first inclination is to > > > order int(n/4) pizzas, where n is the number of hungry attenders. > > > Another option is n takeout-chinese items. Or perhaps int(n/100) cows. > > > > > > If you are interested, bring $5 to the meeting, and RSVP (off-list) with > > > your top two choices, such as: > > > > > > 1) veggie pizza > > > 2) anything chinese, hold the cow please. > > > > > > > > > -Daniel > > > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From pm at datademons.com Thu Jun 19 18:46:10 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] DAMN. Message-ID: I'd have like to make it to today's meeting, but by the time I got home and remembered, it was.. well.. now. :\ Regards, Justin Wheeler -- The title shouldn't be "When wild animals attack!", it should be, "when stupid people get bit!" From jwheeler at datademons.com Thu Jun 19 18:43:07 2003 From: jwheeler at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] DAMN. Message-ID: I'd have like to make it to today's meeting, but by the time I got home and remembered, it was.. well.. now. :\ Regards, Justin Wheeler -- The title shouldn't be "When wild animals attack!", it should be, "when stupid people get bit!" From da at coder.com Thu Jun 19 18:32:45 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] kw-pm talk Message-ID: Hi Justin. We're at the meeting. Lloyd says, "We ate your curry. It was good." -Daniel From da at coder.com Fri Jun 20 22:40:31 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting Message-ID: These are not comprehensive, just URLs and things for wrapup that I was thinking about today. Notes from KW.pm June Meeting - discussed YAPC::Canada talks, the Matrix, perl on Microsoft (activestate), perl as a teaching language. - browse and d/l the proceedings CD at: http://coder.com/yapc-canada/2003/proceedings/ - Presentation on "screen-scraping" and automating web-client tasks. Sorry, no slides! - LWP / libwww : library for "writing WWW clients", or more common subset of that, retrieving WWW content (LWP::Simple). find it on CPAN. - Note- we also have the book "LWP and Perl" in our Library! Ask to borrow it and it's yours. For a month or two, at least. - HTML::TokeParser : parse HTML, simply. Using a parser is much easier than trying to hand-roll regular expressions. Also on CPAN. - WWW::Mechanize : good tool for general screen-scraping. Basically a shell around a number of underlying modules, such as HTML::Form, LWP::Agent, HTTP::Response. But provides a nice consistant front-end. Easy to use. Ditto, CPAN. - WWW::Mechanize::Shell : Question from Tomas about building the screen-scraping code according to an interactive session on a website. Lo, and behold, there's a module for it. Guess where. - While we discussed the philosophy of learning programming, I installed WWW::Mechanize::Shell. It needs a buttload of other modules, but once they're installed, it does nearly what Tomas was asking for. - Didn't get to legal issues around copying data from peoples' sites. Basically: if there are terms of use, read them and follow them. If you run a site, have easy-to-read terms of use. Anything else? - Next month: mod_perl talk! Happy... er, Harry Potter Day... -Daniel http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sat Jun 21 09:22:12 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I want to sign out the LWP book! I need it to understand the REST examples in the "Perl for Web Services" book :-) Justin's curry was good, thankyou for not showing up Justin ;-) Harry who? ( With few exceptions, I only read things that have been rejected by the mass culture ) On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:40:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting > > These are not comprehensive, just URLs and things for wrapup that I was > thinking about today. > > Notes from KW.pm June Meeting > > - discussed YAPC::Canada talks, the Matrix, perl on Microsoft > (activestate), perl as a teaching language. > > - browse and d/l the proceedings CD at: > http://coder.com/yapc-canada/2003/proceedings/ > > - Presentation on "screen-scraping" and automating web-client tasks. > Sorry, no slides! > > - LWP / libwww : library for "writing WWW clients", or more common > subset of that, retrieving WWW content (LWP::Simple). find it on CPAN. > > - Note- we also have the book "LWP and Perl" in our Library! Ask > to borrow it and it's yours. For a month or two, at least. > > - HTML::TokeParser : parse HTML, simply. Using a parser is much easier > than trying to hand-roll regular expressions. Also on CPAN. > > - WWW::Mechanize : good tool for general screen-scraping. Basically > a shell around a number of underlying modules, such as HTML::Form, > LWP::Agent, HTTP::Response. But provides a nice consistant > front-end. Easy to use. Ditto, CPAN. > > - WWW::Mechanize::Shell : Question from Tomas about building the > screen-scraping code according to an interactive session on a > website. Lo, and behold, there's a module for it. Guess where. > > - While we discussed the philosophy of learning programming, I > installed WWW::Mechanize::Shell. It needs a buttload of other > modules, but once they're installed, it does nearly what Tomas > was asking for. > > - Didn't get to legal issues around copying data from peoples' sites. > Basically: if there are terms of use, read them and follow them. > If you run a site, have easy-to-read terms of use. Anything else? > > - Next month: mod_perl talk! > > > Happy... er, Harry Potter Day... > -Daniel > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From pm at datademons.com Sat Jun 21 09:30:38 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, it kinda pissed me off to miss the meeting. I didn't want to miss it, but I'm the kind of person that forgets where his wallet is the instant he puts it down. I'll have to put the next meeting in my blackberry so it makes noises at me the day of so I remember. Speaking of screen scraping, a module I wrote on CPAN makes some pretty hefty usage of screenscraping. Business::Shipping::UPS -- I will be moving it into the Business::UPS namespace soon, but last time I tried, PAUSE was down. My module uses LWP::UserAgent. LWP::Simple doesn't support POST (I don't think.) -- so I used it instead. It's pretty straightforward, but I'd think is a pretty good example of screenscraping, since it grabs the first page, gets a random ID UPS throws at you, posts to the tracking page, etc. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control! On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > I want to sign out the LWP book! > I need it to understand the REST examples in the "Perl for Web Services" > book :-) > > Justin's curry was good, thankyou for not showing up Justin ;-) > > Harry who? ( With few exceptions, I only read things that have been > rejected by the mass culture ) > > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:40:31 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Daniel R. Allen > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting > > > > These are not comprehensive, just URLs and things for wrapup that I was > > thinking about today. > > > > Notes from KW.pm June Meeting > > > > - discussed YAPC::Canada talks, the Matrix, perl on Microsoft > > (activestate), perl as a teaching language. > > > > - browse and d/l the proceedings CD at: > > http://coder.com/yapc-canada/2003/proceedings/ > > > > - Presentation on "screen-scraping" and automating web-client tasks. > > Sorry, no slides! > > > > - LWP / libwww : library for "writing WWW clients", or more common > > subset of that, retrieving WWW content (LWP::Simple). find it on CPAN. > > > > - Note- we also have the book "LWP and Perl" in our Library! Ask > > to borrow it and it's yours. For a month or two, at least. > > > > - HTML::TokeParser : parse HTML, simply. Using a parser is much easier > > than trying to hand-roll regular expressions. Also on CPAN. > > > > - WWW::Mechanize : good tool for general screen-scraping. Basically > > a shell around a number of underlying modules, such as HTML::Form, > > LWP::Agent, HTTP::Response. But provides a nice consistant > > front-end. Easy to use. Ditto, CPAN. > > > > - WWW::Mechanize::Shell : Question from Tomas about building the > > screen-scraping code according to an interactive session on a > > website. Lo, and behold, there's a module for it. Guess where. > > > > - While we discussed the philosophy of learning programming, I > > installed WWW::Mechanize::Shell. It needs a buttload of other > > modules, but once they're installed, it does nearly what Tomas > > was asking for. > > > > - Didn't get to legal issues around copying data from peoples' sites. > > Basically: if there are terms of use, read them and follow them. > > If you run a site, have easy-to-read terms of use. Anything else? > > > > - Next month: mod_perl talk! > > > > > > Happy... er, Harry Potter Day... > > -Daniel > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sat Jun 21 09:51:48 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Careful what if your somewhere noisy? Can you set your Blackberry to squirm in your pocket until you show up ;-) I have some reptile brain thing that goes off when it detects the absence of my keys or wallet! It takes control of my hands and they start looping through every pocket they can find! Your just too highly evolved Justin. On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:30:38 -0400 (EDT) > From: Justin Wheeler > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting > > Actually, it kinda pissed me off to miss the meeting. I didn't want to > miss it, but I'm the kind of person that forgets where his wallet is the > instant he puts it down. I'll have to put the next meeting in my > blackberry so it makes noises at me the day of so I remember. > > Speaking of screen scraping, a module I wrote on CPAN makes some pretty > hefty usage of screenscraping. Business::Shipping::UPS -- I will be > moving it into the Business::UPS namespace soon, but last time I tried, > PAUSE was down. > > My module uses LWP::UserAgent. LWP::Simple doesn't support POST (I don't > think.) -- so I used it instead. It's pretty straightforward, but I'd > think is a pretty good example of screenscraping, since it grabs the first > page, gets a random ID UPS throws at you, posts to the tracking page, etc. > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- > I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control! > > On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > > > I want to sign out the LWP book! > > I need it to understand the REST examples in the "Perl for Web Services" > > book :-) > > > > Justin's curry was good, thankyou for not showing up Justin ;-) > > > > Harry who? ( With few exceptions, I only read things that have been > > rejected by the mass culture ) > > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:40:31 -0400 (EDT) > > > From: Daniel R. Allen > > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting > > > > > > These are not comprehensive, just URLs and things for wrapup that I was > > > thinking about today. > > > > > > Notes from KW.pm June Meeting > > > > > > - discussed YAPC::Canada talks, the Matrix, perl on Microsoft > > > (activestate), perl as a teaching language. > > > > > > - browse and d/l the proceedings CD at: > > > http://coder.com/yapc-canada/2003/proceedings/ > > > > > > - Presentation on "screen-scraping" and automating web-client tasks. > > > Sorry, no slides! > > > > > > - LWP / libwww : library for "writing WWW clients", or more common > > > subset of that, retrieving WWW content (LWP::Simple). find it on CPAN. > > > > > > - Note- we also have the book "LWP and Perl" in our Library! Ask > > > to borrow it and it's yours. For a month or two, at least. > > > > > > - HTML::TokeParser : parse HTML, simply. Using a parser is much easier > > > than trying to hand-roll regular expressions. Also on CPAN. > > > > > > - WWW::Mechanize : good tool for general screen-scraping. Basically > > > a shell around a number of underlying modules, such as HTML::Form, > > > LWP::Agent, HTTP::Response. But provides a nice consistant > > > front-end. Easy to use. Ditto, CPAN. > > > > > > - WWW::Mechanize::Shell : Question from Tomas about building the > > > screen-scraping code according to an interactive session on a > > > website. Lo, and behold, there's a module for it. Guess where. > > > > > > - While we discussed the philosophy of learning programming, I > > > installed WWW::Mechanize::Shell. It needs a buttload of other > > > modules, but once they're installed, it does nearly what Tomas > > > was asking for. > > > > > > - Didn't get to legal issues around copying data from peoples' sites. > > > Basically: if there are terms of use, read them and follow them. > > > If you run a site, have easy-to-read terms of use. Anything else? > > > > > > - Next month: mod_perl talk! > > > > > > > > > Happy... er, Harry Potter Day... > > > -Daniel > > > > > > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From scruss at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 21 10:59:32 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EF480E4.8070004@sympatico.ca> Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > If you run a site, have easy-to-read terms of use. I don't think that would be much of a defence. Assume everything's copyright [the Berne convention says so], but extracts for personal/ academic research use are okay. Stewart From arakune at thinkers.org Sun Jun 22 09:30:05 2003 From: arakune at thinkers.org (Skooka) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: <3EF480E4.8070004@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > I don't think that would be much of a defence. Assume everything's > copyright [the Berne convention says so], but extracts for personal/ > academic research use are okay. Simple factual information is also generally safe. You could, for example, snag things like sports scores (provided you aren't violating the TOS agreement) with no copyright worries. The most they could could claim copyright to, as I understant, is their *markup* of such content. Steph From scruss at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 22 21:33:41 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EF66705.3080502@sympatico.ca> Skooka wrote: > > Simple factual information is also generally safe. You could, for example, > snag things like sports scores One of the leagues of strange sports you play on this continent has copyrighted its scores -- I think it's one of the basketball leagues. Someone was done for scraping and republishing. Stewart From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Jun 23 04:36:08 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: <3EF66705.3080502@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: Perhaps we should turn our discussion on it's head. Perhaps we need sites that boldly proclaim that the information is free to use. Steal this book http://www.tenant.net/Community/steal/ Scrape this website is not quite the same, but I hope you get the point. On Sun, 22 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:33:41 -0400 > From: Stewart C. Russell > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting > > Skooka wrote: > > > > Simple factual information is also generally safe. You could, for example, > > snag things like sports scores > > One of the leagues of strange sports you play on this continent has > copyrighted its scores -- I think it's one of the basketball leagues. > Someone was done for scraping and republishing. > > Stewart > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From scruss at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 23 10:52:08 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting Message-ID: <20030623155208.MVIB23931.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> lloyd wrote: > > Perhaps we need sites that boldly proclaim that > the information is free to > use. We have that. There's a way -- which I can't quite remember right now -- of embedding Dublin Core metadata in a HTML document's head element. It has strictly defined keys for rights management, and is supposed to be machine-parseable. Stewart From pm at datademons.com Mon Jun 23 11:01:47 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: <20030623155208.MVIB23931.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Message-ID: http://slashdot.org/slashdot.xml ? Regards, Justin Wheeler -- As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing. On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > lloyd wrote: > > > > Perhaps we need sites that boldly proclaim that > > the information is free to > > use. > > We have that. There's a way -- which I can't quite > remember right now -- of embedding Dublin Core > metadata in a HTML document's head element. It has > strictly defined keys for rights management, and > is supposed to be machine-parseable. > > Stewart > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From scruss at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 23 11:29:58 2003 From: scruss at sympatico.ca (Stewart C. Russell) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting Message-ID: <20030623162958.UFTG26560.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Justin Wheeler wrote: > > http://slashdot.org/slashdot.xml > > ? I dunno what they think they're doing; RSS or RDF would've worked just fine. But then, /. blocks any connections from w3.org, lest anyone complain about their broken-as-designed markup. Stewart From pm at datademons.com Mon Jun 23 11:35:45 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: <20030623162958.UFTG26560.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Message-ID: Really? I didn't know that.. and I find it quite humourous. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Southern DOS: Y'all reckon? (Yep/Nope) On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > > http://slashdot.org/slashdot.xml > > > > ? > > I dunno what they think they're doing; RSS or RDF would've worked just fine. But then, /. blocks any connections from w3.org, lest anyone complain about their broken-as-designed markup. > > Stewart > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Mon Jun 23 16:56:03 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Book Review - Oracle Design Message-ID: Review by Rick Price The O'Reilly book Oracle Design is an excellent book, however I am concerned about it's lack of coverage of Oracle 9i features. I believe there are a good number of cases where their advice would be different if Oracle 9i's features were taken into account. One of the best things about the book is how it goes through design step by step from the beginning. By the time you are finished the book, you should have a good idea of how to design an Oracle database correctly. If you are starting out in Oracle database design, this is an excellent start. Even with the lack of Oracle 9i coverage, I would heartily recommend this book. However, it really should be updated. Also, the reader of the book would be well advised to check the capabilities of Oracle 9i before implementing anything the book recommends. Rick From da at coder.com Mon Jun 23 16:57:35 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Review: Safari Message-ID: Safari Review - by Daniel Allen Imagine you're walking down the street when a guy in a trench-coat comes out of a dark alley and says, "Hey pal- wanna rent an animal book?" You say, "An O'Reilly book? Cool. What do you have?" He opens his trenchcoat, and there's a list of 1,450 titles. "You gotcher Nutshell books, your Camel books, your Linux, Macintosh, and OS X books... And not only O'Reilly, but also Addison-Wesley, New Riders, QUE, SAMS, Adobe Press, and Microsoft Press." You are dubious. "Why should I *rent* these books, when I can just buy them from the bookstore? What's the source? What are the terms? And what's in it for you, anyway?" My job in this review is to play the part of the guy in the trench-coat, and try and sell you, the computer-book purchaser and user, on the idea of renting books via the net from O'Reilly. I've been using a free trial of O'Reilly Safari for a few months, and I think it is worth a good look for anybody who uses technical computer books as part of their job, their education, or even out of intellectual curiosity. Starting at the beginning: O'Reilly and The Pearson Technology Group (made up of Addison Wesley, New Riders, and the other publishers listed above, among others) have a book subscription service called "Safari," at safari.oreilly.com. Subscribers to this service pay $10US per month for a "5-slot bookshelf". Larger bookshelves are available, such as $15/mo. for a 10-slot bookshelf. You can add books from the 1,450 book catalog to your shelf at any time; nearly all at a one-slot-per-book rate (1/2 slot for O'Reilly Pocket Guides). Books in your shelf have the full contents available over the web, broken into sub-chapters and fully searchable. It's somewhat like the interface for the O'Reilly CD Bookshelfs, but without the CD. What's the Catch? There's always a catch, isn't there? In this case, the biggest catch is that you must keep a book on your shelf for 30 days. You can keep books on your shelf as long as you like, beyond the original 30 days. A typical strategy would be to gradually fill your bookshelf over the course of a few months, and weed out the less useful ones after their first 30 days, whenever you want to add something new. In my experience, "bookshelf managing" was not as much of a trouble as I expected it to be. I expected to fill the slots faster than I did (for reasons I'll go into below). I expected it to be a bit annoying to figure out whether I had free slots for the books I wanted to add. Neither of these expectations came true, however. Another possible annoyance is that if you remove a book or cancel your subscription, the book is gone. This is less of an issue for information that "goes stale" such as with so many things computer-related. Further, if you do the math, on a 5-book shelf ($10/mo.) you are paying $2 per month for a book. If you've bought it on paper, you have probably paid at least $30, so you'd better have referred to it at least once a month for 15 months for it to have been worth it. What's Safari like? Generally, if you are OK with reading long blocks of text on a web page, you should be comfortable with this service and its interface. A book's outline is always visible on the page, as is a search function. Hyperlinks (within the chapters and in the index) directly link into the appropriate section, generally faster than page-flipping. Searches can be of books in your bookshelf, or Safari-wide. You can also print pages directly from the book (though you are supposed to destroy printouts for books no longer in your shelf). There are interface features that allow you to take notes (attached to a page), and make bookmarks stored with your account, useful if you switch computers a lot. Of course, these notes only last as long as the book is in your bookshelf. Since everything is web-based, all of the information can be accessed from anywhere, leading to the first situation this service makes a lot of sense- for people on the go. Such as students or professionals with more than one desk. Who wants to carry 5 books in their suitcase or backpack when they have access to the web? The content is the same high quality you generally expect from O'Reilly and the other publishers; on avarage, higher than newsgroup, web, and IRC communities where the content can vary widely from excellent to awful. The books seem to have the latest (corrected) printing, so copying-and-pasting code will generally work the first time. Additionally, the content comes with valuable *context*; which is often missing from community-provided answers, where people often supply technically correct answes with no supporting information with the important "why". The interface has a clean way to find out what is in your bookshelf, whether you have notes and bookmarks in a book, when you can remove a book, what searches you have done recently and what pages you've looked at recently as well. The experience of using Safari compares favorably to using a public library for the same purpose. Not one of the books I have browsed in Safari were available in the Kitchener or Waterloo library systems, even though Kitchener has an OK selection of older O'Reilly books. If I had a company library with hundreds of IT books and an ongoing book budget, I guess I'd be happy with that; but I do not. Instead, I will be happy with Safari. What are the downsides? The following people will probably not be satisfied with Safari: - people who cannot put up with reading long texts on a monitor - people who want to collect shelves of Animal Books as status symbols. - those who do not have any book budgets at all The search engine does not use Google, and I wish it did. I admit I've gotten spoiled; I don't know how Safari sorts the outputs, but I've sometimes found it easier to google for a topic to find a book title, then find the book within Safari. Not all O'Reilly books are on Safari. The first three books I looked for were not availble; I was looking for a few older O'Reilly books and one published this year. I expect they use a populatity heuristic to decide which books to publish first. But this meant that my (less popular) first choices weren't available, so I had more spaces to fill than I expected. On the bright side, two months later, two of the three books are available ("Learning GNU Emacs" and "Sequence Analysis in a Nutshell") and they seem to be steadily adding a few dozen O'Reilly books a month. I haven't thoroughly researched the non-O'Reilly books, but a few non-O'Reilly books I would really expect to see are also not available. To name names, "Code Complete" by O'Connell, from Microsoft Press, and "The Mythical Man Month" by Brooks, from Addison-Wesley press aren't available. These are widely regarded as fundimental books for software professionals, and since the publishers are part of Safari, I'd expect to see these titles. A philosophical problem with the service, which I can't blame O'Reilly for, is that I simply don't have time to read as many books as I've "subscribed to". So the value is slightly diminished; and I get a bit of the "you left the fridge door open" feeling. However, this is greatly over-shadowed by the utility. Wrap-up: I've added five books to my bookshelf and have leisurely browsed through two of them; and I used third book to look up a solution to a programming problem. I expect to directly use one of the other two books for work, and read the other one for fun. I think I have gotten much more than the $30US value I would've paid for this service ($15/mo.) What if I'd bought the books new in retail? I'd have paid approximately $150US (with a reasonable discount). Would I receive $150 value out of these five books over the time they sat on my shelf? I don't think I would have. In contrast, if I'd only bought one of the books for approximately the same $30, I would not have gained the benefits from the other two that I've already browsed. Taking a hard look at my technical bookshelves, I have too many books. If I could sell six of them, at half the purchase price, for the ability to use Safari for six months, I would do so. By that calculation, if I subscribe to the 5-shelf bookshelf, look at 30 or 40 (or up to 60) books over a year, and save from buying four books I didn't need to buy, I've come out ahead in the deal-- not only money-wise, but learning-wise as well. From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Jun 23 18:50:37 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: <20030623155208.MVIB23931.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Message-ID: Thanks Stewart :-) I'll look for that, if you remember more details that I can use to google it please send them along. On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:52:08 -0400 > From: Stewart C. Russell > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: Re: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting > > lloyd wrote: > > > > Perhaps we need sites that boldly proclaim that > > the information is free to > > use. > > We have that. There's a way -- which I can't quite > remember right now -- of embedding Dublin Core > metadata in a HTML document's head element. It has > strictly defined keys for rights management, and > is supposed to be machine-parseable. > > Stewart > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From mskala at ansuz.sooke.bc.ca Mon Jun 23 19:21:14 2003 From: mskala at ansuz.sooke.bc.ca (mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:31 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Notes from June meeting In-Reply-To: <20030623162958.UFTG26560.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > http://slashdot.org/slashdot.xml > > > > ? > > I dunno what they think they're doing; RSS or RDF would've worked just fine. But then, /. blocks any connections from w3.org, lest anyone complain about their broken-as-designed markup. Slashdot has RSS at http://slashdot.org/slashdot.rdf. -- Matthew Skala mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca Embrace and defend. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/