From da at coder.com Thu Jan 2 18:17:32 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:27 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Happy New Year! We should come up with a topic for our next meeting, tentatively scheduled for the 16th, the 3rd Thursday. The field is a bit wide-open. Has anybody explored XML and perl? That could be interesting. Maybe a walk-through showing off your favorite project? Or, since we had as much fun last month at the pub... :-) -Daniel From akohlsmith at benshaw.com Thu Jan 2 19:02:37 2003 From: akohlsmith at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:27 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200301022002.37324@-mixdown.ca> > Has anybody explored XML and perl? That could be interesting. Maybe a > walk-through showing off your favorite project? I have a project where I parse up XLT files and make XML from them... it's very regexp-heavy. It's meant to be template-ized and stored in SQL, and then an XWT app interacts with an XMLRPC server (on perl, natch.) to do our sales quotes. Regards, Andrew From da at coder.com Thu Jan 2 22:58:50 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:27 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: <200301022002.37324@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: OK, google tells me XLT is XML representations of Lexicons and Terminologies-- but beyond that, it seems to get complicated fast. And the chart at: http://www.ttt.org/oscar/xlt/webtutorial/ doesn't really help me. :-) Can you fill me in on what XLT is used for? Perhaps mapping one XML set to another XML?.. -Daniel On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > Has anybody explored XML and perl? That could be interesting. Maybe a > > walk-through showing off your favorite project? > > I have a project where I parse up XLT files and make XML from them... it's > very regexp-heavy. It's meant to be template-ized and stored in SQL, and > then an XWT app interacts with an XMLRPC server (on perl, natch.) to do our > sales quotes. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Jan 3 04:29:43 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should have read ahead first before I replied to your email da. I would love to do XML after I review the book :-) As for the "favourite project" I wouldn't mind showing my phone pad puzzle solver. I'd like you to review the code first, it's pretty rough but it works. I'd like to hear more about elbie's global domination program ;-) On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:17:32 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] topics > > Happy New Year! > > We should come up with a topic for our next meeting, tentatively scheduled > for the 16th, the 3rd Thursday. The field is a bit wide-open. > > Has anybody explored XML and perl? That could be interesting. Maybe a > walk-through showing off your favorite project? > > Or, since we had as much fun last month at the pub... :-) > > -Daniel > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Jan 3 04:32:31 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: <200301022002.37324@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: OK Andrew just got elected to do a presentation on XML ;-) On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:02:37 -0500 > From: Andrew Kohlsmith > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] topics > > > Has anybody explored XML and perl? That could be interesting. Maybe a > > walk-through showing off your favorite project? > > I have a project where I parse up XLT files and make XML from them... it's > very regexp-heavy. It's meant to be template-ized and stored in SQL, and > then an XWT app interacts with an XMLRPC server (on perl, natch.) to do our > sales quotes. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From rpjday at mindspring.com Fri Jan 3 06:53:49 2003 From: rpjday at mindspring.com (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: currently, i was thinking about adding an exercise to my current perl course to program "hangman". by the time i wanted to give that program as an assignment, the students will have already learned 1) file I/O, including reading /usr/dict/words 2) picking a random value from a range, including picking a random word from a file (see where this is going? :-) 3) s/// 4) *possibly* tr///, if that's necessary i'd like to ask the students to pull all this together and write a program that a) selects a random word from /usr/dict/words b) prints the appropriate ........... string c) starts accepting guesses and fills in those letters until the word is complete or 7 guesses have been made sure, it's not hard, but all the examples i've seen on the net involve calling subroutines or modules, which i haven't covered yet. or they get unnecessarily and overly complicated when there's no need for that. anyone have a nice, *simple*, straightforward hangman game? i've written one myself, but i'm curious to see what real experts can come up with. remember, this is meant to be doable by new perl programmers. rday From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Fri Jan 3 08:04:52 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200301030904.52562@-mixdown.ca> > OK, google tells me XLT is XML representations of Lexicons and > Terminologies-- but beyond that, it seems to get complicated fast. And > the chart at: http://www.ttt.org/oscar/xlt/webtutorial/ doesn't really > help me. :-) Can you fill me in on what XLT is used for? Perhaps mapping > one XML set to another XML?.. Sorry. XLT as in Microsoft Excel Templates. XLS/XLT files are the same thing. Regards, Andrew From da at coder.com Fri Jan 3 10:08:30 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > I would love to do XML after I review the book :-) I'll look up the info about getting O'reilly to send us a freebie. > As for the "favourite project" I wouldn't mind showing my phone pad puzzle > solver. I'd like you to review the code first, it's pretty rough but it > works. Sure thing. No promises my review will make it any better, of course. > I'd like to hear more about elbie's global domination program ;-) Or, at least, global explication program, if we're both talking about the mapquest-a-like idea. -Daniel From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Fri Jan 3 10:21:31 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200301031121.31435@-mixdown.ca> > OK Andrew just got elected to do a presentation on XML ;-) Heh, I didn't say I knew much about XML... I just created a few tags from it. I should drag my PFY down, he's the one who converted the templates to something pretty. Regards, Andrew From da at coder.com Fri Jan 3 10:19:06 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: <200301030904.52562@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: Oh. Um. Google done me wrong! It didn't magically intuit the correct acronym! Still, I hope you'd consider talking about it- it looks like an ideal use for perl-as-glue. I've been trying to get the XWT website to work with no success. Probably my java vm isn't up to snuff. -Daniel On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > OK, google tells me XLT is XML representations of Lexicons and > > Terminologies-- but beyond that, it seems to get complicated fast. And > > the chart at: http://www.ttt.org/oscar/xlt/webtutorial/ doesn't really > > help me. :-) Can you fill me in on what XLT is used for? Perhaps mapping > > one XML set to another XML?.. > > Sorry. XLT as in Microsoft Excel Templates. XLS/XLT files are the same > thing. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Fri Jan 3 10:34:23 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics Message-ID: Why don't you post yours, and we can try and come up with optimizations? A sort of anti-obfuscation contest, as it were. -Daniel On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Robert P. J. Day wrote: > > currently, i was thinking about adding an exercise to my current > perl course to program "hangman". by the time i wanted to give > that program as an assignment, the students will have already > learned > > 1) file I/O, including reading /usr/dict/words > 2) picking a random value from a range, including picking a random > word from a file (see where this is going? :-) > 3) s/// > 4) *possibly* tr///, if that's necessary > > i'd like to ask the students to pull all this together and write > a program that > > a) selects a random word from /usr/dict/words > b) prints the appropriate ........... string > c) starts accepting guesses and fills in those letters until > the word is complete or 7 guesses have been made > > sure, it's not hard, but all the examples i've seen on the net > involve calling subroutines or modules, which i haven't covered > yet. or they get unnecessarily and overly complicated when there's > no need for that. > > anyone have a nice, *simple*, straightforward hangman game? i've > written one myself, but i'm curious to see what real experts can > come up with. remember, this is meant to be doable by new perl > programmers. > > rday From rpjday at mindspring.com Fri Jan 3 07:17:13 2003 From: rpjday at mindspring.com (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Why don't you post yours, and we can try and come up with optimizations? > A sort of anti-obfuscation contest. :-) what, are you nuts? post some of my code to a forum filled with perl weenies? i think not -- i have my pride. :-) rday From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Jan 3 15:40:25 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: <200301031121.31435@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: Your welcome to bring anyone along to help you with your presentation ;-) On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:21:31 -0500 > From: Andrew Kohlsmith > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] topics > > > OK Andrew just got elected to do a presentation on XML ;-) > > Heh, I didn't say I knew much about XML... I just created a few tags from it. > I should drag my PFY down, he's the one who converted the templates to > something pretty. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Jan 3 15:44:31 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Come on you have no pride, or why would you hang out with us ;-) On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Robert P. J. Day wrote: > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:17:13 -0500 (EST) > From: Robert P. J. Day > To: Daniel R. Allen > Cc: lloyd carr , kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] topics > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > > Why don't you post yours, and we can try and come up with optimizations? > > A sort of anti-obfuscation contest. :-) > > what, are you nuts? post some of my code to a forum filled with > perl weenies? i think not -- i have my pride. :-) > > rday > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Jan 3 15:57:23 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: map quest - oh that's what he'd like you to think. Why does he need to know where everything is? So he can control it! Global Domination System GDS or was that GPS... On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:08:30 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: lloyd carr > Cc: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] topics > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > > > I would love to do XML after I review the book :-) > > I'll look up the info about getting O'reilly to send us a freebie. > > > As for the "favourite project" I wouldn't mind showing my phone pad puzzle > > solver. I'd like you to review the code first, it's pretty rough but it > > works. > > Sure thing. No promises my review will make it any better, of course. > > > I'd like to hear more about elbie's global domination program ;-) > > Or, at least, global explication program, if we're both talking about the > mapquest-a-like idea. > > -Daniel > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From elbie at trig.net Sat Jan 4 19:27:49 2003 From: elbie at trig.net (Christopher Calzonetti) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030105012749.GA21848@trig.net> I resent the fact that people seem to think I'm developing only one tool for World Domination. On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 09:57:23PM +0000, lloyd carr wrote: > map quest - oh that's what he'd like you to think. > Why does he need to know where everything is? So he can control it! > Global Domination System GDS or was that GPS... From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Sat Jan 4 19:41:24 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] topics In-Reply-To: <20030105012749.GA21848@trig.net> Message-ID: More than one evil tool ... oh do tell us more. On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Christopher Calzonetti wrote: > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:27:49 -0500 > From: Christopher Calzonetti > To: lloyd carr > Cc: Daniel R. Allen , kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] topics > > I resent the fact that people seem to think I'm developing only one > tool for World Domination. > > On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 09:57:23PM +0000, lloyd carr wrote: > > map quest - oh that's what he'd like you to think. > > Why does he need to know where everything is? So he can control it! > > Global Domination System GDS or was that GPS... > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From da at coder.com Thu Jan 9 22:24:04 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] YAPC 2003 call for participation, and YAPC::NA::Canada Message-ID: YAPC (Yet Another Perl Conference) this year will be in Boca Raton, Florida. June 16-18 or so. The first call for participation has gone out: http://www.yapc.org/America/ A few months ago, I announced that YAPC would be in Ottawa. Due to some scheduling problems, that was not possible... However, there is an alternative. Jay Lawrence of Ottawa.pm is planning for a smaller (50-100 person) YAPC::NA::Canada, to be held in Ottawa in the middle of May. Unlike YAPC, which is three full days, it will be a 1 1/2 day conference. It will also have 2-3 simultaneous talks, rather than the four tracks at YAPC. Like YAPC, costs will be kept low; housing will be available in Carleton dorms (for something like $15/night). His plan is to use it as a logistical "dry run" for next year's YAPC bid, so things will run more smoothly then. Every YAPC for the last three has caused the organizers to be completely burned out by the end. He wants to do one of these, the right way... and write down what to do, so people can replicate the success in the future. I'm helping the planning, because, hey- I've never planned a conference before and therefore am to dumb to know when to run the other way. Maybe if there's time at the end of our meeting we can chat about YAPC and whether people are interested in a road-trip (or perhaps train-trip?) to Ottawa in May... -Daniel http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Jan 10 04:13:10 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] YAPC 2003 call for participation, and YAPC::NA::Canada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The kw.pm roadshow, sign me up :-) -Lloyd On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:24:04 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel R. Allen > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] YAPC 2003 call for participation, and YAPC::NA::Canada > > YAPC (Yet Another Perl Conference) this year will be in Boca Raton, > Florida. June 16-18 or so. The first call for participation has gone > out: > > http://www.yapc.org/America/ > > A few months ago, I announced that YAPC would be in Ottawa. Due to some > scheduling problems, that was not possible... However, there is an > alternative. Jay Lawrence of Ottawa.pm is planning for a smaller (50-100 > person) YAPC::NA::Canada, to be held in Ottawa in the middle of May. > > Unlike YAPC, which is three full days, it will be a 1 1/2 day conference. > It will also have 2-3 simultaneous talks, rather than the four tracks at > YAPC. > > Like YAPC, costs will be kept low; housing will be available in Carleton > dorms (for something like $15/night). > > His plan is to use it as a logistical "dry run" for next year's YAPC bid, > so things will run more smoothly then. Every YAPC for the last three has > caused the organizers to be completely burned out by the end. He wants to > do one of these, the right way... and write down what to do, so people can > replicate the success in the future. > > I'm helping the planning, because, hey- I've never planned a conference > before and therefore am to dumb to know when to run the other way. > > Maybe if there's time at the end of our meeting we can chat about YAPC and > whether people are interested in a road-trip (or perhaps train-trip?) to > Ottawa in May... > > -Daniel > > http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org > http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From da at coder.com Fri Jan 10 10:12:14 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] January meeting Message-ID: Please pass this info on to friends/colleagues: -- Announcing the January meeting of the KITCHENER-WATERLOO Perl Mongers - kw.pm - For enthusiasts of the Perl programming language Topic: Excel to XML to PDF We will meet on Thursday, January 16th at 7pm at the offices of Quarry Communications, at 180 King Street South, the corner of King and Allen Streets in Uptown Waterloo. The doors to the Allen building are locked after hours. If no one is available to let you in the front at 7pm, go around to the back entrance to be buzzed in. To subscribe to our mailing list email kw-pm-request@mail.pm.org or visit http://kw.pm.org/ for more information. Daniel Allen http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From da at coder.com Fri Jan 10 21:19:28 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] YAPC::Canada - May 15 and 16, 2003 in Ottawa - http://www.yapc.ca/ Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:00:16 -0500 From: Jay Lawrence YAPC::Canada (Yet Another Perl Conference) is a low-cost 1 1/2 day conference with its roots in the Perl Mongers groups. YAPC::Canada features two speaker streams and an optional day of pre-conference training. The Ottawa Tulip Festival ( http://tulipfestival.ca/ ) will be in full swing at this time. Great for spouses while you're at YAPC::Canada! Accomodations will are available at Carleton University residences. Pre-register at http://www.yapc.ca/ with no obligation and tell us: - courses that interest you - you would like to sponsor us - you would like to present - any special needs - your ideas Location: Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario Cost: CAD 75.00 (roughly USD 48.75) Dinner on Thursday and Friday, and lunch on Friday included. Keynote: TBA Times: Thursday May 15, 2003 - 1:00pm to 5:30pm Friday May 16, 2003 - 9:00am to 5:30pm Training: Wednesday May 14, 2003 - all day Training is optional and is an extra fee If you encounter any problems with the site or would like to contact us directly then please write to help@yapc.ca . From rpjday at mindspring.com Wed Jan 15 11:32:08 2003 From: rpjday at mindspring.com (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] anyone interested in more discount o'reilly books? Message-ID: on very short notice, i'll be putting in an order for more ORA books this friday. same terms as before -- you'll get a 35% discount on the listed price, then add GST on top of that. i don't need any cash before i order, but i'll need a commitment that you'll buy them when they get here. so let me know by the end of the week. rday From da at coder.com Thu Jan 16 16:40:48 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] O'Reilly User Group mail Message-ID: Hi All, I just received what seems to be a weekly update from O'Reilly, which I've copied below. It's... long. But some of it looks interesting (new books: Programming Web Services for Perl; Understanding the Linux Kernel, 2nd Edition). On the one hand, it's marketing and therefore a scrouge on the earth; on the other hand, it's O'Reilly.. and they are willing to ship us *free* copies of books for the expense of us writing reviews for them. I have put an order for Perl and XML, which Lloyd has offered to write a review on. So hey, maybe it's a good thing to browse. Dunno. I guess at the meeting we can discuss whether this list is a good place for it. -Daniel http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com -- >From marsee@oreilly.com Thu Jan 16 17:14:54 2003 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:31:10 -0800 (PST) From: Marsee Henon To: daniel@coder.com Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, Jan 16 O'Reilly User Group Program Newsletter January 16, 2003 Please share this information with your members... Highlights This Week: ---------------------------------------------------------------- Book News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Windows XP Pro: The Missing Manual -sendmail, 3rd Edition -Learning Unix for Mac OS X, 2nd Edition -ActionScript for Flash MX: The Definitive Guide, 2nd Edition -Oracle in a Nutshell -Webmaster in a Nutshell, 3rd Edition -Programming Web Services with Perl -Objective-C Pocket Reference -Understanding the Linux Kernel, 2nd Edition -Windows XP Pocket Reference -Perl Graphics Programming -Apache: The Definitive Guide, 3rd Edition ---------------------------------------------------------------- Upcoming Events ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Visit O'Reilly at LinuxWorld-NY -Steven Feuerstein (Oracle PL/SQL Programming, 3rd Ed.) at the Northwest Oracle Users Group Winter Conference Bellevue, WA --------------------------------------------------------------- Conference News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Registration is open for the 2003 O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference -Online registration is still open for the O'Reilly Bioinformatics Technology Conference -Open Source Convention--Time to Submit Your Proposal ---------------------------------------------------------------- News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -The O'Reilly Learning Lab -Boucher: DMCA-Fixing Bill "Will Win" -Jump the Shark -Consuming Amazon with Flash Remoting -Understanding Overloading in WSDL -The JAXB API -Your First Micro Java Game -Introduction to Managed C++ -Using Remote Data Access with SQL Server CE 2.0 -What is RSS? -Apple on Top of Its Game: the Macworld SF 2003 Report -The DigiCam Chronicles: Assignment Macworld -New O'Reilly Beta Chapter--Mac OS X in a Nutshell -------------------------------------------------------------- Announcements From Your Peers -------------------------------------------------------------- -Davis, CA--Linux Users' Group of Davis celebrates Their Four-Year Anniversary--January 20 -Ottawa, Canada--Open Source Weekend--January 25 & 26 ================================================ Book News ================================================ Review books are available--please email me for a copy. ***Please include the order number on your requests. Let me know if you need your books by a certain date. Please allow at least four weeks for shipping. Send or email me copies of your newsletters and book reviews. Don't forget, your members get 20% off any O'Reilly book they purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering. http://www.oreilly.com/ ***Group purchases with better discounts are available*** Please let me know if you are interested. Press releases are available on our press page: http://press.oreilly.com/ ***Windows XP Pro: The Missing Manual Order Number: 348X "Windows XP Pro: The Missing Manual" is written for the novice power user who wants to master XP Pro and get down to work. 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Along with free food and cake, LUGOD will be screening the independent film "REVOLUTION OS," which tells the tale of computer programmers who rebelled against Microsoft's dominance and created the Linux computer operating system and the "Open Source" movement. Monday, January 20, 2003 6:30-9:00pm Davis Branch of the Yolo County Library 315 East 14th Street in Davis, California. For more information, go to: http://www.lugod.org/revos/ A flyer is available online: http://www.lugod.org/documents/flyers/ ***Ottawa, Canada--Open Source Weekend On January 25 and 26, 2003, a coalition of computer professionals, students, and volunteers will host an Open Source Weekend in Ottawa, Canada. The events will be spread across the city and throughout the weekend to showcase the dynamic world of open source software. The major activities will be the: -Linuxfest at the University of Ottawa -Linuxfest at Carleton University -Business of Open Source Software conference For more information on these events please see: http://www.osw.ca/ Until next time-- Marsee From rpjday at mindspring.com Fri Jan 17 08:47:51 2003 From: rpjday at mindspring.com (Robert P. J. Day) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] order deadline for o'reilly books Message-ID: i'm putting in the order for another shipment of ORA books this afternoon, so if you want any at the customary 35% discount, i need to know before then. rday From pm at datademons.com Wed Jan 22 15:21:00 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. Message-ID: First thing I see after signing up to this list, is, "Powered by Python". Conflict of interest? :) Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Jan 22 17:59:25 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard that with Parrot you can be any animal you want and still be a true camel at heart :-) http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/04/01/parrot.htm On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:21:00 -0500 (EST) > From: Justin Wheeler > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > First thing I see after signing up to this list, is, "Powered by Python". > > Conflict of interest? :) > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From martin at golden.net Wed Jan 22 15:35:50 2003 From: martin at golden.net (martin) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: next month's topic: converting mailman to xwt/xml-rpc/perl ;) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin E. Kokkelink. Golden Triangle Online Inc. Systems Division. (519) 576-3334 ext. 1386 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > First thing I see after signing up to this list, is, "Powered by Python". > > Conflict of interest? :) > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From pm at datademons.com Wed Jan 22 21:07:37 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow. This actually looks pretty interesting. Anyone else here played around with/used "Parrot"? Any thoughts/ideas on it? Admittedly, I don't know Python from a dead horse. I probably should; they say any good admin knows Python and Perl... Thoughts? Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > I've heard that with Parrot you can be any animal you want and still be a > true camel at heart :-) > > http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/04/01/parrot.htm > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:21:00 -0500 (EST) > > From: Justin Wheeler > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > > > First thing I see after signing up to this list, is, "Powered by Python". > > > > Conflict of interest? :) > > > > Regards, > > Justin Wheeler > > > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Wed Jan 22 21:54:48 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200301222254.48300@-mixdown.ca> > Admittedly, I don't know Python from a dead horse. I probably should; > they say any good admin knows Python and Perl... Well a python's a large snake, see, and a dead horse... well it's pretty much the same as a live one but it don't move as much. Depending on how long its been dead, you may notice other things about it, too. Regards, Andrew From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 23 03:41:00 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: <200301222254.48300@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: As I said, any animal can soon be a camel at heart, even the dead stinky ones, maybe even the ones from microsoft ;-) Didn't I read somewhere they ported QBasic to the Parrot? On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:54:48 -0500 > From: Andrew Kohlsmith > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > > Admittedly, I don't know Python from a dead horse. I probably should; > > they say any good admin knows Python and Perl... > > Well a python's a large snake, see, and a dead horse... well it's pretty much > the same as a live one but it don't move as much. Depending on how long its > been dead, you may notice other things about it, too. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 23 03:43:57 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Daniel we have a "volunteer" for next months presentation ;-) On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, martin wrote: > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:35:50 -0500 (EST) > From: martin > To: "kw-pm@mail.pm.org" > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > > > next month's topic: converting mailman to xwt/xml-rpc/perl ;) > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Martin E. Kokkelink. > Golden Triangle Online Inc. Systems Division. > (519) 576-3334 ext. 1386 > > > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > First thing I see after signing up to this list, is, "Powered by Python". > > > > Conflict of interest? :) > > > > Regards, > > Justin Wheeler > > > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 23 03:52:17 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well apparently it started as an April fools joke, note the date of the article I linked you to, that went on to become true!?! How strange is that? Perhaps one of the real Perl mavins, hello Daniel, can enlighten us. Anyone want to volunteer to do a talk on Parrot/Perl 6? On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:07:37 -0500 (EST) > From: Justin Wheeler > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > Wow. This actually looks pretty interesting. Anyone else here played > around with/used "Parrot"? Any thoughts/ideas on it? > > Admittedly, I don't know Python from a dead horse. I probably should; > they say any good admin knows Python and Perl... > > Thoughts? > > Regards, > Justin Wheeler > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > > > I've heard that with Parrot you can be any animal you want and still be a > > true camel at heart :-) > > > > http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/04/01/parrot.htm > > > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > > > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:21:00 -0500 (EST) > > > From: Justin Wheeler > > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > > > > > First thing I see after signing up to this list, is, "Powered by Python". > > > > > > Conflict of interest? :) > > > > > > Regards, > > > Justin Wheeler > > > > > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > > > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kw-pm mailing list > > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From pm at datademons.com Thu Jan 23 06:02:10 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 10 #!/usr/bin/perl -w 20 30 use strict; 40 50 print "That would be hilarious.\n"; 60 gosub 90; 70 goto 50 80 90 print "ha ha!\n"; 100 return Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > As I said, any animal can soon be a camel at heart, even the dead stinky > ones, maybe even the ones from microsoft ;-) > > Didn't I read somewhere they ported QBasic to the Parrot? > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:54:48 -0500 > > From: Andrew Kohlsmith > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > > > > Admittedly, I don't know Python from a dead horse. I probably should; > > > they say any good admin knows Python and Perl... > > > > Well a python's a large snake, see, and a dead horse... well it's pretty much > > the same as a live one but it don't move as much. Depending on how long its > > been dead, you may notice other things about it, too. > > > > Regards, > > Andrew > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From arguile at lucentstudios.com Thu Jan 23 12:11:54 2003 From: arguile at lucentstudios.com (Arguile) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1043345515.240.38.camel@broadswd> On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 04:52, lloyd carr wrote: > Well apparently it started as an April fools joke, note the date of the > article I linked you to, that went on to become true!?! How strange is > that? Perhaps one of the real Perl mavins, hello Daniel, can enlighten us. [snip] Yes, it did start as an April fools joke (mainly from the Perl camp). At the time it was thought of as ludicrous the Perl and Python camps could agree on anything, so it seemed an amusing idea. They asked O'Reilly if they could use their name/animal trademark to give the joke weight; O'Reilly aquised and even provided an artist to do the lithograph cover. It was then realised that the only way it would be even close to believable is if they had colusion in the upper echelons of the Python camp. Hence came about an absudly work intensive joke, and one of the best working relations between the two camps. I hope I got that all correct, I remeber being as shocked as the next person when it was originally announced (the joke one). You can probably find some funny comments if you search the /. archive. ## Brief synopsis -- not detailed enough to be wholely correct Anyways, what seemed like a ludicrous idea at the time did in fact start making more sense as they talked it over. Parrot is basically just a virtual machine. Just as Java is compiled down to bytecode to run on it's JVM, or .Net languages like C# are compiled into IBL (I think that's the acronym), or even Pascal had pCode, things like Perl and Python will be compiled down to Parrot. As it currently stands, when you run a Perl script the perl interpretter first compiles it down to an internal bytecode representation, unlike Java's bytecode however this representation is not portable across machines. Parrot should allow multiple languages all to be compiled down to the same VM and be cross platform in the way Java bytecode is. You can even program in Parrot "assembly" if you wish. When the first beta came out I had a bit of fun with this, if you have a bit of time the hacking is definitely worth it :) From daniel at coder.com Thu Jan 23 12:12:37 2003 From: daniel at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow. O'reilly is so cool. I can't believe they are still running that entire gag, including the "Programming Parrot in a Nutshell" book. -Daniel $_='daniel@coder.com 519-575-3733 /Prescient Code Solutions/ coder.com ';s/-/ /g;s/([.@])/ $1/g;@y=(42*1476312054+7*3,14120504e4,-42*330261-33, 42*5436+3,42*2886+10,42*434987+5);s/(.)/ord(uc($1))/ge;for(@x=split/32/; @y; map{print chr} split /(..)/, shift(@x) + shift(@y)) {perlmonk.da.ru} On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, lloyd carr wrote: > I've heard that with Parrot you can be any animal you want and still be a > true camel at heart :-) > > http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/04/01/parrot.htm > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Justin Wheeler wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:21:00 -0500 (EST) > > From: Justin Wheeler > > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > > > First thing I see after signing up to this list, is, "Powered by Python". > > > > Conflict of interest? :) > > > > Regards, > > Justin Wheeler > > > > -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with > > electronics and inanimate equipment. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > kw-pm mailing list > > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > > > > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Thu Jan 23 12:59:11 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: <1043345515.240.38.camel@broadswd> Message-ID: The only thing I'd add to Arguile's good summary- Parrot was written to execute bytecode for Perl 6. It is expected to become the core of the perl 6 interpreter. As quickly as the Perl 6 language definitions get hashed out, the parrot crew goes in and implements it in parrot. Maniacs. :-) Though, Parrot is not perl6; it is a standalone virtual machine that can execute bytecode-compiled languages like perl6 will be, and like Python is currently. No, that distinction isn't 100% clear to me either. -Daniel $_='daniel@coder.com 519-575-3733 /Prescient Code Solutions/ coder.com ';s/-/ /g;s/([.@])/ $1/g;@y=(42*1476312054+7*3,14120504e4,-42*330261-33, 42*5436+3,42*2886+10,42*434987+5);s/(.)/ord(uc($1))/ge;for(@x=split/32/; @y; map{print chr} split /(..)/, shift(@x) + shift(@y)) {perlmonk.da.ru} On 23 Jan 2003, Arguile wrote: > On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 04:52, lloyd carr wrote: > > Well apparently it started as an April fools joke, note the date of the > > article I linked you to, that went on to become true!?! How strange is > > that? Perhaps one of the real Perl mavins, hello Daniel, can enlighten us. > > [snip] > > Yes, it did start as an April fools joke (mainly from the Perl camp). At > the time it was thought of as ludicrous the Perl and Python camps could > agree on anything, so it seemed an amusing idea. They asked O'Reilly if > they could use their name/animal trademark to give the joke weight; > O'Reilly aquised and even provided an artist to do the lithograph cover. > It was then realised that the only way it would be even close to > believable is if they had colusion in the upper echelons of the Python > camp. Hence came about an absudly work intensive joke, and one of the > best working relations between the two camps. > > I hope I got that all correct, I remeber being as shocked as the next > person when it was originally announced (the joke one). You can probably > find some funny comments if you search the /. archive. > > ## Brief synopsis -- not detailed enough to be wholely correct > > Anyways, what seemed like a ludicrous idea at the time did in fact start > making more sense as they talked it over. > > Parrot is basically just a virtual machine. Just as Java is compiled > down to bytecode to run on it's JVM, or .Net languages like C# are > compiled into IBL (I think that's the acronym), or even Pascal had > pCode, things like Perl and Python will be compiled down to Parrot. > > As it currently stands, when you run a Perl script the perl interpretter > first compiles it down to an internal bytecode representation, unlike > Java's bytecode however this representation is not portable across > machines. > > Parrot should allow multiple languages all to be compiled down to the > same VM and be cross platform in the way Java bytecode is. You can even > program in Parrot "assembly" if you wish. When the first beta came out I > had a bit of fun with this, if you have a bit of time the hacking is > definitely worth it :) > > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From arguile at lucentstudios.com Thu Jan 23 13:35:09 2003 From: arguile at lucentstudios.com (Arguile) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1043350510.251.174.camel@broadswd> On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 13:59, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > The only thing I'd add to Arguile's good summary- Parrot was written to > execute bytecode for Perl 6. It is expected to become the core of the > perl 6 interpreter. As quickly as the Perl 6 language definitions get > hashed out, the parrot crew goes in and implements it in parrot. > Maniacs. :-) Though, Parrot is not perl6; it is a standalone virtual > machine that can execute bytecode-compiled languages like perl6 will be, > and like Python is currently. No, that distinction isn't 100% clear to me > either. > > -Daniel The distinction can be seen easily when you look at say, compiling Perl down to bytecode to run on the Java JVM. Or think of different CPU instruction sets. First let's look at processors Let's take a PPC chip and, say, an nVidia GPU. Both are processors but they have very different tasks. You can do basic math on the GPU, it has such low level instruction on it. But the main part of it's intruction set is high level graphic operations that pertain to things like bump mapping, anisthropic filtering, refraction, etc. In the same way you can do graphics on the RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) but I don't think anyone would argue that it's a lot harder and slower when you have to build the entire system out of simple math operations. Second we'll get closer to our distinction by looking at compiling Perl to run on Java's JVM instead of Parrot. Java has a specific way of doing things, so when they wrote the VM to the instructions it provides and the base data structures it uses are consistent with the style and type of programs you write in that language. If we try to map Perl's operations to it we'd have to create all sorts of complex little objects, structs, etc. to do stuff as we went through even basic operations. All though high level instructions that Java would use, aren't the type of thing Perl would use (like running a program on a GPU). And some of the basic things we do in Perl aren't done in Java, so the basic intructions aren't there; while it's possible to build them out of what _is_ there it's certainly not easy. So now we look at Perl and Parrot. It should be pretty obvious by now, Parrot is an VM for our class of language. It supports the type of things we commonly do in Perl and Python in it's intruction set. You could say it's optimised for it in the same way the GPU is optimised for graphics. So Parrot isn't Perl6, but the intruction set in the VM resembles the language class for quick/easy operation. Did I miss anything? caveat: Some high level analogies were used that don't fully mesh, but hopefully it gets the distinction across From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 23 19:26:49 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Hrm. In-Reply-To: <1043350510.251.174.camel@broadswd> Message-ID: So I'm still a little confused, when did it go from being a April fools joke to being real?? On 23 Jan 2003, Arguile wrote: > Date: 23 Jan 2003 14:35:09 -0500 > From: Arguile > To: kw-pm@mail.pm.org > Subject: Re: [kw-pm] Hrm. > > On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 13:59, Daniel R. Allen wrote: > > The only thing I'd add to Arguile's good summary- Parrot was written to > > execute bytecode for Perl 6. It is expected to become the core of the > > perl 6 interpreter. As quickly as the Perl 6 language definitions get > > hashed out, the parrot crew goes in and implements it in parrot. > > Maniacs. :-) Though, Parrot is not perl6; it is a standalone virtual > > machine that can execute bytecode-compiled languages like perl6 will be, > > and like Python is currently. No, that distinction isn't 100% clear to me > > either. > > > > -Daniel > > The distinction can be seen easily when you look at say, compiling Perl > down to bytecode to run on the Java JVM. Or think of different CPU > instruction sets. > > First let's look at processors Let's take a PPC chip and, say, an nVidia > GPU. Both are processors but they have very different tasks. You can do > basic math on the GPU, it has such low level instruction on it. But the > main part of it's intruction set is high level graphic operations that > pertain to things like bump mapping, anisthropic filtering, refraction, > etc. In the same way you can do graphics on the RISC (Reduced > Instruction Set Computer) but I don't think anyone would argue that it's > a lot harder and slower when you have to build the entire system out of > simple math operations. > > Second we'll get closer to our distinction by looking at compiling Perl > to run on Java's JVM instead of Parrot. Java has a specific way of doing > things, so when they wrote the VM to the instructions it provides and > the base data structures it uses are consistent with the style and type > of programs you write in that language. If we try to map Perl's > operations to it we'd have to create all sorts of complex little > objects, structs, etc. to do stuff as we went through even basic > operations. All though high level instructions that Java would use, > aren't the type of thing Perl would use (like running a program on a > GPU). And some of the basic things we do in Perl aren't done in Java, so > the basic intructions aren't there; while it's possible to build them > out of what _is_ there it's certainly not easy. > > So now we look at Perl and Parrot. It should be pretty obvious by now, > Parrot is an VM for our class of language. It supports the type of > things we commonly do in Perl and Python in it's intruction set. You > could say it's optimised for it in the same way the GPU is optimised for > graphics. So Parrot isn't Perl6, but the intruction set in the VM > resembles the language class for quick/easy operation. > > > Did I miss anything? > > > > caveat: Some high level analogies were used that don't fully mesh, but > hopefully it gets the distinction across > > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From da at coder.com Sat Jan 25 19:14:38 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Next Meeting Message-ID: If I recall correctly, for our next meeting (Thursday, Feb. 20th) we're going to do Perl Q & A. To start things off, Chris (or I?.. Chris?) will talk about finding things on CPAN (the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network), and also I'll spend a few minutes deconstructing the Schwartzian Transform. If you haven't seen it before, it's an efficient yet odd-looking sorting algorithm that goes like this: @data_out = map { $_->[1] } sort { $a->[0] cmp $a->[0] } map { [func($_), $_] } @data_in; We're presently seeking other questions that need answers, and/or answers that need questions. Lloyd- did you have some kind of phone-keypad puzzle script you wanted to show? Robert- you had a hangman puzzle? Does anybody want to deconstruct the DeCSS 4-liner? :-) Happy Windows Refund Day and Chinese New Year. -Daniel http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Tue Jan 28 15:44:59 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perlbot's ability to load/release/reload modules on the fly Message-ID: <200301281644.59405@-mixdown.ca> Before I go digging and try to figure it out myself, does anyone have any experience with Perlbot and/or knows enough about Perl to give me a quick rundown on how exactly Perl (well Perlbot) it is able to dynamically load, reload and release Perl functions from its runtime? An example: perlbot has module a, b, c, d, e and foo. a-e are already loaded and functioning. I can, via IRC, tell the bot to load module 'foo' and it will load it up, make it active and never disconnect or restart itself. Similarly I can edit foo's configuration and tell it to reload, or tell Perlbot to release module foo, all without Perlbot stopping. The modules are just Perl code files. Regards, Andrew From akohlsmith-kwpm at benshaw.com Tue Jan 28 15:41:45 2003 From: akohlsmith-kwpm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perlbot's ability to load/release/reload modules on the fly Message-ID: <200301281641.45373@-mixdown.ca> Before I go digging and try to figure it out myself, does anyone have any experience with Perlbot and/or knows enough about Perl to give me a quick rundown on how exactly Perl (well Perlbot) it is able to dynamically load, reload and release Perl functions from its runtime? An example: perlbot has module a, b, c, d, e and foo. a-e are already loaded and functioning. I can, via IRC, tell the bot to load module 'foo' and it will load it up, make it active and never disconnect or restart itself. Similarly I can edit foo's configuration and tell it to reload, or tell Perlbot to release module foo, all without Perlbot stopping. The modules are just Perl code files. Regards, Andrew From pm at datademons.com Tue Jan 28 15:54:58 2003 From: pm at datademons.com (Justin Wheeler) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perlbot's ability to load/release/reload modules on the fly In-Reply-To: <200301281644.59405@-mixdown.ca> Message-ID: This is probably an oversimplified answer. Feel free to slap me if you like. Sounds like it's simply an eval. open (code, "blah.mod"); @code = ; close code; $code = join("\n", @code); eval($code); open (code, "blah2.mod"); @code = ; close code; $code = join("\n", @); eval($code); ... there's always more than one way to do it... but.. I would imagine it's something along these lines.. (not that simple, of course.).. but you get the idea. Regards, Justin Wheeler -- Computer programmer (n): Red-eyed mammal capable of communicating with electronics and inanimate equipment. On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: > Before I go digging and try to figure it out myself, does anyone have any > experience with Perlbot and/or knows enough about Perl to give me a quick > rundown on how exactly Perl (well Perlbot) it is able to dynamically load, > reload and release Perl functions from its runtime? > > An example: perlbot has module a, b, c, d, e and foo. a-e are already loaded > and functioning. I can, via IRC, tell the bot to load module 'foo' and it > will load it up, make it active and never disconnect or restart itself. > Similarly I can edit foo's configuration and tell it to reload, or tell > Perlbot to release module foo, all without Perlbot stopping. > > The modules are just Perl code files. > > Regards, > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > kw-pm mailing list > kw-pm@mail.pm.org > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/kw-pm > From da at coder.com Tue Jan 28 15:58:56 2003 From: da at coder.com (Daniel R. Allen) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Perlbot's ability to load/release/reload modules on the fly Message-ID: eval seems to do the trick. perl -e 'eval "use Env"; print $PATH'; -Daniel http://kw.pm.org/ - Kitchener-Waterloo Perlmongers - da@kw.pm.org http://coder.com/ - Prescient Code Solutions - (519) 575-3733 da@coder.com From dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 30 04:30:48 2003 From: dcarr at sdf.lonestar.org (lloyd carr) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Off topic - question Message-ID: Two non perl questions I have been asked to write a small piece of quality control software for a large auto parts supplier. This would be my first free lance job, I know don't say it I've always felt safe having a mother company to take care of me ;-) 1) Where do I learn how to write a project proposal? 2) Not asking for legal advice but - How do I limit my liability, in case I screw up or they think I screwed up? Lloyd dcarr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From sfllaw at engmail.uwaterloo.ca Thu Jan 30 06:18:22 2003 From: sfllaw at engmail.uwaterloo.ca (Simon Law) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Off topic - question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030130121822.GO18993@engmail.uwaterloo.ca> On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 10:30:48AM +0000, lloyd carr wrote: > Two non perl questions > I have been asked to write a small piece of quality control software for a > large auto parts supplier. This would be my first free lance job, I know > don't say it I've always felt safe having a mother company to take care of > me ;-) > > 1) Where do I learn how to write a project proposal? Google can tell you how. http://www.umkc.edu/research/proposals.html > 2) Not asking for legal advice but - > How do I limit my liability, in case I screw up or they think I screwed > up? Find an attorney. Any time you do work for someone there is an implied warranty. The attorney will be able to discuss your options with you, while people on this list will be spouting hearsay and superstition. Simon From akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com Thu Jan 30 07:33:56 2003 From: akohlsmith-pm at benshaw.com (Andrew Kohlsmith) Date: Mon Aug 2 21:31:28 2004 Subject: [kw-pm] Off topic - question In-Reply-To: <20030130121822.GO18993@engmail.uwaterloo.ca> References: <20030130121822.GO18993@engmail.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: <200301300833.56643@-mixdown.ca> > Find an attorney. Any time you do work for someone there is an > implied warranty. The attorney will be able to discuss your options > with you, while people on this list will be spouting hearsay and > superstition. That is excellent advice. I have done freelance work in the past and have not used an attorney, but I was taking a chance (and it happened to pay off for me) -- If there is any doubt that the people you're working for are the litigious type or even the type to take a signed specification and stretch it through "but this is a bug/this isn't what I wanted" (been there, done that), having the sound advice of someone who does know the law is priceless. You will sleep much better knowing exactly where you stand, legally. Regards, Andrew