From jmreinke at sunflower.com  Sat Mar  1 00:02:58 2003
From: jmreinke at sunflower.com (John Reinke)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
Message-ID: <1046498583.2301.12.camel@jupiter>

This will hopefully be an easy question for some of you. I left the
camel and llama at work over the weekend, otherwise I would consult them
first.

I have a text file which contains a character I am guessing as being
considered a unicode character. It is the letter 'u' with the accent
mark over it that looks like an apostrophe, which appears in some text
editors as <FA>.

I'd like to convert any of those characters to be regular ASCII
characters, most likely with a tr command, but I haven't been able to
find a way to match that character. Any suggestions?

Once I can match those characters, is there an easy way to convert all
accented characters to their non-accented counterparts, such that the
accent will disappear but the same letter will remain?

Thanks for any help,
John



From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar  3 09:15:14 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C25@EXCH_MISSION>


John Reinke wrote:
> 
> I have a text file which contains a character I am guessing as being
> considered a unicode character. It is the letter 'u' with the accent
> mark over it that looks like an apostrophe, which appears in some text
> editors as <FA>.

This need not be unicode, and likely isn't. Many ASCII extended character
sets contain the accented vowels. It is most likely that you're using one of
those.

 
> I'd like to convert any of those characters to be regular ASCII
> characters, most likely with a tr command, but I haven't been able to
> find a way to match that character. Any suggestions?

Are you saying that:

  s/????/u/g;
  s/?/U/g;

Doesn't work?

 
> Once I can match those characters, is there an easy way to convert all
> accented characters to their non-accented counterparts, such that the
> accent will disappear but the same letter will remain?

I'm not sure I'd recommend this. The accents after all do represent
different vowel sounds. And the simple conversion you're suggesting doesn't
correctly convert them to their non-accented counterparts. For instance,
Germans typing on keyboards without umlauts (the 2 dots above ?) would type
sch?n as schoen... There's another word schon which has a different meaning.


Then again my sum knowledge of locale and internationalization issues is
pretty meager. I don't know if it'd even be possible to do what you suggest
unless you could identify the language and locale for each section of text
you wished to transform. Even then I'm not aware of any modules to perform
such conversions. Though that isn't to say they don't exist.

It'd be nice to know what you're actually trying to accomplish. If for
instance you're wanting to munge this text file so it can be displayed in
HTML... you might be interested in HTML::Entities:

  http://search.cpan.org/author/GAAS/HTML-Parser-3.27/lib/HTML/Entities.pm

Which for example allows you to do this:

  $input = "vis-?-vis Beyonc?'s na?ve papier-m?ch? r?sum?";
  print encode_entities($in), "\n"

which would result in:

  vis-&agrave;-vis Beyonc&eacute;'s na&iuml;ve papier-m&acirc;ch&eacute;
  r&eacute;sum&eacute;

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                   Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road               Main: 913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202              Fax: 913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett@scriptpro.com 
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From jmreinke at sunflower.com  Mon Mar  3 21:58:24 2003
From: jmreinke at sunflower.com (John Reinke)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C25@EXCH_MISSION>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C25@EXCH_MISSION>
Message-ID: <1046750310.8275.38.camel@jupiter>

On Mon, 2003-03-03 at 09:15, Garrett Goebel wrote:
> > I have a text file which contains a character I am guessing as being
> > considered a unicode character. It is the letter 'u' with the accent
> > mark over it that looks like an apostrophe, which appears in some text
> > editors as <FA>.
> 
> This need not be unicode, and likely isn't. Many ASCII extended character
> sets contain the accented vowels. It is most likely that you're using one of
> those.

You are correct. I had to revert to my C skills to learn that u with the
accent mark has the value 250 - a single byte.

> > I'd like to convert any of those characters to be regular ASCII
> > characters, most likely with a tr command, but I haven't been able to
> > find a way to match that character. Any suggestions?
> 
> Are you saying that:
> 
>   s/????/u/g;
>   s/?/U/g;
> 
> Doesn't work?

I'm sure it does, but what I'm really looking for (but didn't state
clearly) is a more generic solution. Besides, I'm not sure how to type
all those characters without pasting them in from another document.
 
> It'd be nice to know what you're actually trying to accomplish. If for

What I'm trying to accomplish is remove the accent marks from
characters, essentially reducing everything down to 7-bit ASCII. Since
you're asking, the strings will become file names. I want to create a
subroutine that will convert a string to something valid for my file
system. While I could just eliminate the accented characters, it would
make sense to retain the letter part, and eliminate the additional
punctuation - no offense intended toward your "beautiful" (auf Deutsch)
example, Garrett.

I thought that this might have been common enough that someone had a
quick formula that could handle this. Perhaps not. I'll have to look for
an existing package or code something up from scratch...

Thanks,
John



From garrett at scriptpro.com  Tue Mar  4 06:31:53 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C2B@EXCH_MISSION>

John Reinke wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2003-03-03 at 09:15, Garrett Goebel wrote:
> > > I have a text file which contains a character I am 
> > > guessing as being considered a unicode character.
> > > It is the letter 'u' with the accent mark over it
> > > that looks like an apostrophe, which appears in
> > > some text editors as <FA>.
[...] 
> > > I'd like to convert any of those characters to be
> > > regular ASCII characters, most likely with a tr
> > > command, but I haven't been able to find a way to
> > > match that character. Any suggestions?
>  
> > It'd be nice to know what you're actually trying to 
> > accomplish. 
> 
> What I'm trying to accomplish is remove the accent marks
> from characters, essentially reducing everything down to
> 7-bit ASCII. Since you're asking, the strings will become
> file names. I want to create a subroutine that will
> convert a string to something valid for my file system.

What file system(s) does the filename need to be valid for?

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                   Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road               Main: 913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202              Fax: 913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett@scriptpro.com
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From scottk at uclick.com  Tue Mar  4 06:38:33 2003
From: scottk at uclick.com (Scott Kahler)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C25@EXCH_MISSION> <1046750310.8275.38.camel@jupiter>
Message-ID: <3E649E49.5050800@uclick.com>

I haven't seen any package that do what you are looking for John.  I've 
ran into a big of a problem with this recently as I've been working with 
high value ASCII too.  About the only thing I think you'd be able to do 
is a list of one to one conversions.  The problem with this that i've 
run into is that unix, windows and mac all have a different character 
map regaurding character outside our standard alphanumerics.

John Reinke wrote:

>>    
>>
>
>What I'm trying to accomplish is remove the accent marks from
>characters, essentially reducing everything down to 7-bit ASCII. Since
>you're asking, the strings will become file names. I want to create a
>subroutine that will convert a string to something valid for my file
>system. While I could just eliminate the accented characters, it would
>make sense to retain the letter part, and eliminate the additional
>punctuation - no offense intended toward your "beautiful" (auf Deutsch)
>example, Garrett.
>
>I thought that this might have been common enough that someone had a
>quick formula that could handle this. Perhaps not. I'll have to look for
>an existing package or code something up from scratch...
>
>Thanks,
>John
>
>
>  
>

-- 

Scott Kahler
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
DB Hacker
http://www.uclick.com
816-210-8884
scottk@uclick.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Brain: Gone at last, obsequious buffoons. 
Pinky: Right-O Brain. Narf! Obsequious! 
Brain: Pinky, do you have any idea what obsequious means? 
Pinky: No, but it sounds squishy! Ooo I love squishy! 


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From jmreinke at sunflower.com  Tue Mar  4 10:20:15 2003
From: jmreinke at sunflower.com (John Reinke)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C2B@EXCH_MISSION>;
    from garrett@scriptpro.com on Tue, 4 Mar 2003 06:31:53 -0600
Message-ID: <200303041620.h24GKEI01028@smtp.sunflower.com>

Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com> wrote:
> > What I'm trying to accomplish is remove the accent marks
> > from characters, essentially reducing everything down to
> > 7-bit ASCII. Since you're asking, the strings will become
> > file names. I want to create a subroutine that will
> > convert a string to something valid for my file system.
> 
> What file system(s) does the filename need to be valid for?

While I'm running on Linux, I'm a firm believer in storing data (file format and likewise the filenames) in a manner that I can process and share across platforms. Considering that I have Linux/MacOS(old & new)/Win at home and Solaris/Win at work, I figured that reducing everything to a-z,A-Z,0-9, and _ would be safe, as long as the file names aren't too long.

I had hoped for a formula similar to 32 being the difference between ASCII 'A' and 'a' for the accented to non-accented characters, but there doesn't seem to be a similar pattern. It looks like a series of substitutions will have to suffice, assuming I can think of all the possible input.

Or, I can just let it run as is and manually intervene when needed, but my three principle virtues don't want me to take that approach...

Thanks,
John

From garrett at scriptpro.com  Tue Mar  4 12:18:34 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode? [x-adr][x-bayes]
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C2C@EXCH_MISSION>

John Reinke wrote:
> Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com> wrote:
> > > What I'm trying to accomplish is remove the accent marks
> > > from characters, essentially reducing everything down to
> > > 7-bit ASCII. Since you're asking, the strings will become
> > > file names. I want to create a subroutine that will
> > > convert a string to something valid for my file system.
> > 
> > What file system(s) does the filename need to be valid for?
> 
> While I'm running on Linux, I'm a firm believer in storing 
> data (file format and likewise the filenames) in a manner 
> that I can process and share across platforms. Considering 
> that I have Linux/MacOS(old & new)/Win at home and 
> Solaris/Win at work, I figured that reducing everything to 
> a-z,A-Z,0-9, and _ would be safe, as long as the file names 
> aren't too long.

I believe '-' and '.' are safe too.

For Mac HFS compatibility too long is >31

With NTFS when translating LFN to 8.3, all extended ASCII chars are
translated to _.

And there's always the issue of many-to-one transformations:

  f?n
  f?n

So you might want to append a counter when you go to rename the file if it
would stomp on a pre-existing file with the same target name.

It'd probably be best to use an appended counter for case insensitive a-z
clashes too... as HFS is case-preserving but not case-sensitive right? Or
alternatively force everything to upper or lower case.


> I had hoped for a formula similar to 32 being the difference 
> between ASCII 'A' and 'a' for the accented to non-accented 
> characters, but there doesn't seem to be a similar pattern. 
> It looks like a series of substitutions will have to suffice, 
> assuming I can think of all the possible input.

Substitutions might not be cross-platform... A script is written in one
extended ASCII charset and executed on a machine with another might make
some unintended substitutions... It might be best to punt and convert all
unacceptable chars to _.

sub transform ($) { # return true if transform took place
  my $nok;
  if (length($_[0]) > 31) {
    $nok += $_[0] =~ s/(?<=^.{31}).*//;
  }
  if ($_[0] =~ m/[^a-zA-Z0-9_\-\.]/) {
    $nok += $_[0] =~ s/[^a-zA-Z0-9_\-\.]/_/g;
  }
  $nok;
}

$a = 'ab?d*fg i!k&m,,,q@stuvwxyzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba';
print "$a\n";
print transform $a;
print "\n$a\n";


Note: this doesn't worry about filename clashes. But that after all depends
on where you intend to save the file...

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road            Main: 913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202          Fax: 913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com
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From whatever at davidnicol.com  Tue Mar  4 21:41:13 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
In-Reply-To: <3E649E49.5050800@uclick.com>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C25@EXCH_MISSION>
	 <1046750310.8275.38.camel@jupiter>  <3E649E49.5050800@uclick.com>
Message-ID: <1046835673.1514.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>

if nobody else is going to use the filenames but you and
yours you could make up a munging such as

	my $filename2 = $filename;
	$filename2 =~ s/([zZ\W])/sprintf('z%02x',ord $1)/ge;

then later, demunge with something like

	@filenames = map { s/z(..)/chr(hex $1)/ge } readdir DIR;


q works well too :)



On Tue, 2003-03-04 at 06:38, Scott Kahler wrote:
> I haven't seen any package that do what you are looking for John.
> I've ran into a big of a problem with this recently as I've been
> working with high value ASCII too.  About the only thing I think you'd
> be able to do is a list of one to one conversions.  The problem with
> this that i've run into is that unix, windows and mac all have a
> different character map regaurding character outside our standard
> alphanumerics.

-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -le'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[q/@a/],BODY=>q"@a=(74,
65,80,72);while($a=shift@a){YIELD chr$a;}";print while$_=&$c;'


From whatever at davidnicol.com  Sun Mar  9 23:42:25 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] [Fwd: User Groups can win a pass to an O'Reilly Conference]
Message-ID: <1047274945.1484.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>


-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -le'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[q/@a/],BODY=>q"@a=(74,
65,80,72);while($a=shift@a){YIELD chr$a;}";print while$_=&$c;'
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 10 11:14:01 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Reminder: Meeting Tomorrow
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C45@EXCH_MISSION>

March 10th, 7PM Planet Sub at 50th and Main

Presentation:
o  HTML::Mason (Andrew Moore) 

Book Reviews: 
o  Programming Web Services with Perl (Garrett Goebel) 
o  Official Guide to Programming with CGI.pm (Garrett Goebel) 

Puzzle: 
o  Discuss: One Lump or Two
o  New puzzle yet to be determined...


[- One Lump or Two -]

The 100 Monkey's Redux puzzle garnered no submissions. While it sounded
simple it wasn't. As an alternative, I offered to put anyone's name in the
drawing for an O'Reilly book who can answer this puzzle:

There are 3 jars. A black jar, a white jar, and a black-and-white jar. Each
jar is filled with either black and/or white balls. The black jar cannot
contain black balls. The white jar cannot contain white balls. The mixed jar
cannot contain mixed balls. That is, the mixed jar must contain either all
white or all black balls.

To determine the contents of each jar how many balls must you extract and
from which jars? 


Surprisingly, this puzzle has also received no submissions. I must know how
to pick 'em. So nudge, nudge... if you were to submit an answer, the chances
are pretty good that you'll win ;)

-- 
Garrett Goebel 
IS Development Specialist 
ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261 
5828 Reeds Road            Main: 913.384.1008 
Mission, KS 66202          Fax: 913.384.2180 
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com 
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 10 13:50:34 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Reminder: Meeting Tomorrow
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C47@EXCH_MISSION>

Garrett Goebel wrote:
> 
> March 10th, 7PM Planet Sub at 50th and Main 

Sorry all... That's tomorrow the 11th ;)

-- 
Garrett Goebel 
IS Development Specialist 
ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261 
5828 Reeds Road            Main: 913.384.1008 
Mission, KS 66202          Fax: 913.384.2180 
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com 
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From kcperlmonger at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 10:14:21 2003
From: kcperlmonger at yahoo.com (Douglas S. Sparling)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
In-Reply-To: <1046498583.2301.12.camel@jupiter>
Message-ID: <20030311161421.10639.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com>

--- John Reinke <jmreinke@sunflower.com> wrote:

> Once I can match those characters, is there an easy
> way to convert all
> accented characters to their non-accented
> counterparts, such that the
> accent will disappear but the same letter will
> remain?

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but
the new issue of "The Perl Journal" (March 2003) has
an article titled "Writing Multilingual Sites With
mod_perl and Template Toolkit." There's code for a
small module included that will do a translation
turning accented characters into their non-accented
counterparts.

An example given using this module (which also
converts caps to lower case):

use My::Language; # This is the translation module
$stripped_lc =
$charsets{'iso-8859-1'}{lc}->{'Bienvenüe');

$stripped_lc will be set to:

beinvenue

--
doug

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From whatever at davidnicol.com  Wed Mar 12 00:26:29 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] cleaning up unicode?
In-Reply-To: <20030311161421.10639.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20030311161421.10639.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1047450388.1505.12.camel@localhost.localdomain>


Cool!  A module that exports a hash of tied hashes!


On Tue, 2003-03-11 at 10:14, Douglas S. Sparling wrote:

> An example given using this module (which also
> converts caps to lower case):
> 
> use My::Language; # This is the translation module
> $stripped_lc =
> $charsets{'iso-8859-1'}{lc}->{'Bienven?e');
> 
> $stripped_lc will be set to:
> 
> beinvenue
> 
> --
> doug


-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";print chr$_ while$_=&$c;'



From whatever at davidnicol.com  Wed Mar 12 00:27:53 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Reminder: Meeting Tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C47@EXCH_MISSION>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C47@EXCH_MISSION>
Message-ID: <1047450473.1499.14.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 13:50, Garrett Goebel wrote:
> Garrett Goebel wrote:
> > 
> > March 10th, 7PM Planet Sub at 50th and Main 
> 
> Sorry all... That's tomorrow the 11th ;)

Drat!  I missed it.  I found the box of t-shirts I brought
back from YAPC St. Louis last summer.


-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";print chr$_ while$_=&$c;'



From whatever at davidnicol.com  Wed Mar 12 00:42:10 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] [Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 11]
Message-ID: <1047451330.1499.28.camel@localhost.localdomain>


-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";print chr$_ while$_=&$c;'

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Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 11
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From whatever at davidnicol.com  Wed Mar 12 04:07:01 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] response to apo6 transfinite semantics challenge
Message-ID: <1047463621.1499.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Larry Wall writes:



> However, if you access the last element using the length of the array,
> it may try to flatten, and fail:
> 
>     my @flat = (1..Inf, 1..10);
>     $last = @flat[@flat - 1];   # Kaboom!
> 
> Still, we should be able to detect the attempt to flatten an infinite
> list and give a better diagnostic than Perl 5's "Out of memory".
> Either that, or someone should just up and figure out how to subscript
> arrays using transfinite numbers.

We've got Inf, right?  So we know that scalar(()=(1..Inf) is Inf.

Inf - 1 is still Inf.

The only thing we need to define is what @arr[Inf] means.

It seems clear from the previous several paragraphs that Larry wants
someone to suggest, as part of the transfinite package, that

	@arr[Inf]

can be defined as sugar for

	{
	  my $_ = pop @arr;
	  push @arr, $_;
	  $_;
	 }

And this might even just be a special case that perl6 array-FETCH is
supposed to know about. (or create a LAST tie operator.)


The range specs that know their own length without flattening (see
a few paragraphs prev. in apo6) and counting would know if they are Inf.





-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";print chr$_ while$_=&$c;'



From whatever at davidnicol.com  Thu Mar 13 22:37:36 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] another response to apo6 transfinite semantics challenge
In-Reply-To: <1047463621.1499.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1047463621.1499.65.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1047616656.1149.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

> > However, if you access the last element using the length of the array,
> > it may try to flatten, and fail:
> > 
> >     my @flat = (1..Inf, 1..10);
> >     $last = @flat[@flat - 1];   # Kaboom!

How about negative indices?  We have negative indices in the slice()
semantics; what if 

	$last = @array[-1]

always worked?


-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";for(;;){print chr(&$c||die)};'


From whatever at davidnicol.com  Tue Mar 18 21:41:47 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] [Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, March 18]
Message-ID: <1048045306.1039.46.camel@localhost.localdomain>


-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";for(;;){print chr(&$c||die)};'
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:37:49 -0800 (PST)
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Thu Mar 20 16:03:42 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION>

Which would people rather hear about next month:

o  Apache mod_perl
o  Regular Expressions
o  your suggestion here

Andy Moore gave an excellent presentation on HTML::Mason last month. Its too
bad the turnout was so disappointing. And no that is not a slur against Doug
Sparling (the other person in attendance). I gave reviews of the Official
Guide to Programming with CGI.pm and Programming Web Services with Perl. And
we talked until the Planet Sub guys got our attention long enough to mention
everyone else had left the building 15 minutes earlier when they'd closed...

A follow up from the meeting. -I figured out why my CGI perl scripts would
given an error when I'd included a __END__ or __DATA__ token in my perl
scripts. The error was:

  Missing right curly or square bracket at ... line ..., at end of line

The reason is that I was using Apache mod_perl and the Apache::Registry for
the perl handler. Apache::Registry reads your scripts into a string which it
caches and evals as needed. __END__ and __DATA__ aren't eval friendly.

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                   Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road               Main: 913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202              Fax: 913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett@scriptpro.com

 
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From sparling at uclick.com  Fri Mar 21 07:49:56 2003
From: sparling at uclick.com (Doug Sparling)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION>
Message-ID: <1048254596.3e7b188441bfa@www.electricwebmail.com>


Quoting Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com>:

> Which would people rather hear about next month:
> 
> o  Apache mod_perl
> o  Regular Expressions
> o  your suggestion here

How about AxKit?
 
--
doug sparling - uclick
sparling@uclick.com/816.300.6595

From frank at wiles.org  Fri Mar 21 08:34:01 2003
From: frank at wiles.org (Frank Wiles)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
In-Reply-To: <1048254596.3e7b188441bfa@www.electricwebmail.com>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION> <1048254596.3e7b188441bfa@www.electricwebmail.com>
Message-ID: <20030321143401.GD26670@frank.wiles.org>

 .------[ Doug Sparling wrote (2003/03/21 at 05:49:56) ]------
 | 
 |  Quoting Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com>:
 |  
 |  > Which would people rather hear about next month:
 |  > 
 |  > o  Apache mod_perl
 |  > o  Regular Expressions
 |  > o  your suggestion here
 |  
 |  How about AxKit?
 |   
 `-------------------------------------------------

    Before I chime in with a suggestion, when is the next meeting? 

 ---------------------------------
   Frank Wiles <frank@wiles.org>
   http://frank.wiles.org
 ---------------------------------


From sparling at uclick.com  Fri Mar 21 09:24:25 2003
From: sparling at uclick.com (Doug Sparling)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
In-Reply-To: <20030321143401.GD26670@frank.wiles.org>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION> <1048254596.3e7b188441bfa@www.electricwebmail.com> <20030321143401.GD26670@frank.wiles.org>
Message-ID: <1048260265.3e7b2ea9899d9@www.electricwebmail.com>


Quoting Frank Wiles <frank@wiles.org>:


>     Before I chime in with a suggestion, when is the
> next meeting? 

If it's still the second Tuesday of the month, that would make it Tuesday, April 8.

--
doug sparling - uclick
sparling@uclick.com/816.300.6595

From sparling at uclick.com  Fri Mar 21 09:28:47 2003
From: sparling at uclick.com (Doug Sparling)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION>
Message-ID: <1048260527.3e7b2faf3a6d8@www.electricwebmail.com>


Quoting Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com>:

> Which would people rather hear about next month:
> 
> o  Apache mod_perl
> o  Regular Expressions
> o  your suggestion here

Another suggestion...Perl/XML.

I've only used XML::Parser, XML::RSS and XML::DOM, but I know there's a lot more out there. I just picked up the New Riders _XML and Perl_ book and it looks promising (more so than the O'Reilly book).

--
doug sparling - uclick
sparling@uclick.com/816.300.6595

From dhageman at dracken.com  Fri Mar 21 11:14:15 2003
From: dhageman at dracken.com (D. Hageman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
In-Reply-To: <1048260527.3e7b2faf3a6d8@www.electricwebmail.com>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION>
 <1048260527.3e7b2faf3a6d8@www.electricwebmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0303211110330.1427-100000@moko.dracken.com>

On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Doug Sparling wrote:
> Quoting Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com>:
> 
> > Which would people rather hear about next month:
> > 
> > o  Apache mod_perl
> > o  Regular Expressions
> > o  your suggestion here
> 
> Another suggestion...Perl/XML.
> 
> I've only used XML::Parser, XML::RSS and XML::DOM, but I know there's a lot more out there. I just picked up the New Riders _XML and Perl_ book and it looks promising (more so than the O'Reilly book).

I have played with quite a few of the XML modules on CPAN, but keep 
comming back to XML::LibXML.  It seems to be the fastest and most full 
featured.  In some ways, it is in a state of disrepair in its current form 
using the most recent C versions of the libxml2 library -- but that is 
being resolved quickly.  The CVS tree for this module already has many 
fixes for these issues already in place and it should be back up to par 
shortly.  I have two modules on CPAN currently that use this module:
TEI::Lite and XML::XForms::Generator.

XML is definately some neat technology if it isn't abused.  

-- 
//========================================================\\
||  D. Hageman                    <dhageman@dracken.com>  ||
\\========================================================//

From whatever at davidnicol.com  Fri Mar 21 18:07:16 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0303211110330.1427-100000@moko.dracken.com>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C6E@EXCH_MISSION>
	 <1048260527.3e7b2faf3a6d8@www.electricwebmail.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.50.0303211110330.1427-100000@moko.dracken.com>
Message-ID: <1048291636.1426.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I guess I could make a presentation on RAPNAPs.  I'm working
on a RAPNAP client module which I will upload to CPAN as
well as using it inthe other portions of pay2send infrastructure.


  
-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";for(;;){print chr(&$c||die)};'


From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 24 08:22:31 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic? [x-bayes]
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C73@EXCH_MISSION>

From: D. Hageman [mailto:dhageman@dracken.com]
> On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Doug Sparling wrote:
> > Quoting Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com>:
> > 
> > > Which would people rather hear about next month:
> > > 
> > > o  Apache mod_perl
> > > o  Regular Expressions
> > > o  your suggestion here
> > 
> > Another suggestion...Perl/XML.
> > 
> > I've only used XML::Parser, XML::RSS and XML::DOM, but I 
> > know there's a lot more out there. I just picked up the New 
> > Riders _XML and Perl_ book and it looks promising (more so 
> > than the O'Reilly book).
> 
> I have played with quite a few of the XML modules on CPAN,
> but keep comming back to XML::LibXML.  It seems to be the
> fastest and most full featured.  In some ways, it is in a
> state of disrepair in its current form using the most recent
> C versions of the libxml2 library -- but that is being
> resolved quickly.  The CVS tree for this module already 
> has many fixes for these issues already in place and it
> should be back up to par shortly.  I have two modules on
> CPAN currently that use this module: TEI::Lite and
> XML::XForms::Generator.
> 
> XML is definately some neat technology if it isn't abused.  

I wonder if you'd be willing to do a presentation on XML::LibXML some time?
I'm currently trying to work my way toward grokking AxKit and the
foundations it is built upon. So any discussion of LibXML and/or XForms
would be very welcome. Your comments remind me of how the AxKit people
recommend XML::LibXML 1.52 over 1.53. And as AxKit is based upon so very
many other modules there are certain combinations of modules which are more
favored than others...

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road            Main:   913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202          Fax:    913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 24 08:39:25 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C74@EXCH_MISSION>

david nicol wrote:
> 
> I guess I could make a presentation on RAPNAPs.  I'm working
> on a RAPNAP client module which I will upload to CPAN as
> well as using it inthe other portions of pay2send infrastructure.

What is a RAPNAP client? A quick search on google doesn't turn up much.

For list subscribers who aren't familiar with David's pay2send project...
The short summary, is that it is an email service which solves the problem
of receiving undesired email by creating a default toll/filter on
unsolicited email. I.e., when the recipient puts a token price on the act of
sending them an email, spam finally has an associated cost for the spammer.
Plus, receiving email becomes a potential mechanism for putting pennies in
your own jar :) 

I've finally replaced sendmail with qmail at home. I think a grounding talk
on how internet email works with a side on spam filtering would be an
interesting presentation in itself. And could be used as a foundation for a
presentation on the architecture of pay2send and a discussion of the
problems it solves. There is so much detail to be covered... that if you'd
be willing... it'd probably be easier for us lay-people to follow in 2
installments instead of 1 whirlwind tour ;)

However you decide to do it, I'd love to hear more about your progress with
pay2send.

Garrett

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road            Main:   913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202          Fax:    913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 24 09:14:24 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:06 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C76@EXCH_MISSION>

Doug Sparling wrote:
> Quoting Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com>:
> 
> > Which would people rather hear about next month:
> > 
> > o  Apache mod_perl
> > o  Regular Expressions
> > o  your suggestion here
> 
> How about AxKit?

I'll start working on an AxKit presentation. Though I'm not sure I can be
ready with it for the April meeting.

The problem with AxKit is that while getting it up and running isn't a
hurculean task. I find that truely understanding how it all fits together
is. Or at least, I haven't yet dedicated the time to getting to that ah ha
moment... I was kind of hoping to do mod_perl as a building block toward
being prepared to do presentation on AxKit.


> Another suggestion...Perl/XML.
> 
> I've only used XML::Parser, XML::RSS and XML::DOM, but I know 
> there's a lot more out there. I just picked up the New Riders 
> _XML and Perl_ book and it looks promising (more so than the 
> O'Reilly book).

What was lacking in the O'Reilly book? What is the best Perl XML book?

Oh... and I need to plug an irritating reminder to post that Graphics
Programming with Perl book review to the list ;) Which reminds me I've got a
couple book reviews to post myself...

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road            Main:   913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202          Fax:    913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 24 09:29:25 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:07 2004
Subject: [Kc] Book Review: Extending and Embedding Perl
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C77@EXCH_MISSION>

Extending and Embedding Perl
Tim Jenness and Simon Cozens

Extending and Embedding Perl is as it boldly states on the cover: "The
definitive guide to XS, embedding, and the Perl internals". This book is
well organized and information dense. One could spend days sifting through
the available perlapi, perlcall, perlembed, perlguts perlxs, perlxstut, and
h2xs documentation. After which you'll probably understand very well
references to nethack's "You are in a maze of twisty little passages all
alike". Or you could get yourself a copy of this book and find your way out
of the maze.

Most of the available documentation on extending and embedding perl is
written from the prospective of the core perl developers for core perl
developers. This book is written for advanced Perl programmers who for
whatever reason need or wish to peer into that netherworld between Perl, C,
and the glue that interfaces Perl with other languages. It is a deliberate
thorough guide led by authors that are both extremely knowledgeable and also
capable of communicating that knowledge.

While it would greatly reduce the learning curve, no prior knowledge of C is
required to read this book. This is a surprising claim and while it won't be
easy, this reader is proof that someone with little true knowledge of C can
in fact read and for the most part comprehend what the authors wish to
convey. 

There are clearly areas for improvement. Things like NULL being used
throughout chapter 3, only to finally be defined later in a footnote in
chapter 4. And other cases of terms being used before they are explained.
Things that leave the reader juggling unnecessarily until the information is
provided that lets understanding fall into place. But for the most part, if
you are a competent juggler and are patient your questions will eventually
be answered. You won't walk away a C programmer, but you will learn enough
to solve the problems which led you to consider reading this book in the
first place.

One thing I liked very much about the layout of the book is how it switches
back between presenting sections on C programming and Perl. The authors
revisit C each time it is necessary to understand the next Perl internals
topic. Those that are learning C or need the review receive the relevant
information just before it is required. 

Over the course of the book, you'll learn about interfacing from Perl to C
and C back to Perl. For those that must plug references to Tolkien in things
Perl... you can go back and rephase that into an appropriate reference to
Bilbo's book "There and Back Again". You'll also learn the perl api, data
structures for core variable types, and how to work with scalars, arrays,
hashes, strings, regular expressions, file handles, typeglobs, objects,
callbacks and PDL with C and C++. And there is even mention of working with
Fortran, Java, and more esoteric alternatives.

The book finishes with an in depth look at Perl internals: the parser,
tokenizer, op code trees, execution, and compiler. And closes with a
discussion of the Perl development process: How it may be monitored and
participated in.

What's missing? Detailed coverage of the I/O subsystem and the regular
expression engine. I.e., topics which might themselves make for a good book.
There was also light coverage on things like scratchpads. There were times
while reading when I didn't know whether the issue being discussed was fully
covered or curtailed. But you will certainly find better coverage of the
issues in this book than elsewhere. This is an impressive book. I hope it
will greatly influence the way Perl6 internals are documented.

-- 
Garrett Goebel 
IS Development Specialist 
ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261 
5828 Reeds Road            Main: 913.384.1008 
Mission, KS 66202          Fax: 913.384.2180 
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com 
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 24 09:32:56 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:07 2004
Subject: [Kc] Book Review: Programming Web Services with Perl
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C78@EXCH_MISSION>

Programming Web Services with Perl
Randy J. Ray & Pavel Kulchenko

Programming Web Services with Perl is principally a book on implementing
solutions using XML-RPC and SOAP in Perl. It also covers complementary and
alternative standards such as WSDL, UDDI, and REST in some detail. And on
the periphery, it finishes with a whirlwind tour of developing message
routing, alternative data encoding within XML, security, transactions,
workflow, internationalization, service discovery, extension, and management
techniques and specifications.

The book assumes the reader will have the knowledge of an intermediate level
Perl programmer. I.e., the reader is assumed to have a working knowledge of
references, data structures, and object-oriented Perl. On the other hand no
previous knowledge of XML, XML-RPC, SOAP or XML related technologies is
required.

It should also be mentioned that both of the authors Randy J. Ray and Pavel
Kulchenko are also the principle developers of the most popular XML-RPC and
SOAP Perl modules: XML::RPC and SOAP::Lite respectively. That said, the book
is not a soap box for the authors to tout the merits of their tools.

Rather, it is a practical book which starts with grounding fundamentals.
Readers should walk away with a core understanding of XML-RPC and SOAP and
not just a particular tool set for working with them. The authors examine
the alternative XML-RPC and SOAP tools, illustrate how they are used, and
give practical and even handed reasons why their modules should be
preferred. Which comes down to issues of features, active development,
support, and the amount of work required to code to a particular interface.
They then settle down to a comfortable and thorough guide to XML::RPC and
SOAP::Lite.

The topics and issues are illustrated throughout using real world web
services. For example creating an XML-RPC client for O'Reilly's Meerkat news
wire, or a SOAP client to covert use.perl.org's journal stream to RSS. Code
is presented to the reader filtered down to highlight each particular issue
as it is discussed. This is nice in that it avoids listing slight variations
of the same code multiple times, but on the down side it can also leave the
reader flipping back and forth to reassemble an example in their head. Full
code for each example is provided in the appendices. And all of the example
code may be downloaded from O'Reilly at
http://examples.oreilly.com/pwebserperl/.

All-in-all, the book is a thorough practical introduction to working with
XML-RPC, SOAP and related technologies. When I started reading the book, I
was a bit disappointed to see that it only covered XML-RPC and SOAP related
services. When I finished, I was impressed with how very much information
they'd managed to pack into so few pages.

And yet, I was left wishing there'd been a more through coverage of
interoperability issues between other SOAP implementations and things like
custom de-serializers. To be honest interoperability and de-serialization
are mentioned, and the authors do an excellent job of referring the reader
on to sources for continued reading on most other topics.

The book does an admirable job balancing content, length, and information
density. Not to mention an excellent job delivering the information that
will still be relevant years and not just weeks from the date published.
Most of the topics I'd wished to see covered in more depth are those that
are still developing and consequently most likely to become quickly dated.
In short a well balanced practical guide to applying XML-RPC and SOAP to
solve problems.

-- 
Garrett Goebel 
IS Development Specialist 
ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261 
5828 Reeds Road            Main:   913.384.1008 
Mission, KS 66202          Fax:    913.384.2180 
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com 
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From dhageman at dracken.com  Mon Mar 24 10:29:05 2003
From: dhageman at dracken.com (D. Hageman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:07 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic? [x-bayes]
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C73@EXCH_MISSION>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C73@EXCH_MISSION>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0303241025150.1563-100000@moko.dracken.com>

I think I might be able to be persuaded to give a presentation on 
XML::LibXML.  If I do ... I will diverge also into XML::LibXSLT as well 
since both modules go hand-in-hand together.  At this point - I am not 
confident I can do the April meeting though.  I seem to have too many 
irons in the fire at the momment with work and extra curricular 
programming.




On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Garrett Goebel wrote:

> From: D. Hageman [mailto:dhageman@dracken.com]
> > On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Doug Sparling wrote:
> > > Quoting Garrett Goebel <garrett@scriptpro.com>:
> > > 
> > > > Which would people rather hear about next month:
> > > > 
> > > > o  Apache mod_perl
> > > > o  Regular Expressions
> > > > o  your suggestion here
> > > 
> > > Another suggestion...Perl/XML.
> > > 
> > > I've only used XML::Parser, XML::RSS and XML::DOM, but I 
> > > know there's a lot more out there. I just picked up the New 
> > > Riders _XML and Perl_ book and it looks promising (more so 
> > > than the O'Reilly book).
> > 
> > I have played with quite a few of the XML modules on CPAN,
> > but keep comming back to XML::LibXML.  It seems to be the
> > fastest and most full featured.  In some ways, it is in a
> > state of disrepair in its current form using the most recent
> > C versions of the libxml2 library -- but that is being
> > resolved quickly.  The CVS tree for this module already 
> > has many fixes for these issues already in place and it
> > should be back up to par shortly.  I have two modules on
> > CPAN currently that use this module: TEI::Lite and
> > XML::XForms::Generator.
> > 
> > XML is definately some neat technology if it isn't abused.  
> 
> I wonder if you'd be willing to do a presentation on XML::LibXML some time?
> I'm currently trying to work my way toward grokking AxKit and the
> foundations it is built upon. So any discussion of LibXML and/or XForms
> would be very welcome. Your comments remind me of how the AxKit people
> recommend XML::LibXML 1.52 over 1.53. And as AxKit is based upon so very
> many other modules there are certain combinations of modules which are more
> favored than others...
> 
> --
> Garrett Goebel
> IS Development Specialist
> 
> ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261
> 5828 Reeds Road            Main:   913.384.1008
> Mission, KS 66202          Fax:    913.384.2180
> www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com
> 

-- 
//========================================================\\
||  D. Hageman                    <dhageman@dracken.com>  ||
\\========================================================//

From dhageman at dracken.com  Mon Mar 24 10:33:34 2003
From: dhageman at dracken.com (D. Hageman)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:07 2004
Subject: [Kc] Book Review: Extending and Embedding Perl
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C77@EXCH_MISSION>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C77@EXCH_MISSION>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0303241029080.1563-100000@moko.dracken.com>

Excellent review!

Last week I wrote my first perl interface to a C library.  It was quite a 
bit of fun, but I discovered that documentation is severly lacking.  I had 
the most trouble with the "typemap".  It seems that all documents just 
seem to gloss over this very important part of the process.  

A collection of good examples that really helped me out can be found at:

http://search.cpan.org/author/DMR/

Dean Roehrich has two little "CookBooks" on the subject matter.




On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Garrett Goebel wrote:

> Extending and Embedding Perl
> Tim Jenness and Simon Cozens
> 
> Extending and Embedding Perl is as it boldly states on the cover: "The
> definitive guide to XS, embedding, and the Perl internals". This book is
> well organized and information dense. One could spend days sifting through
> the available perlapi, perlcall, perlembed, perlguts perlxs, perlxstut, and
> h2xs documentation. After which you'll probably understand very well
> references to nethack's "You are in a maze of twisty little passages all
> alike". Or you could get yourself a copy of this book and find your way out
> of the maze.
> 
> Most of the available documentation on extending and embedding perl is
> written from the prospective of the core perl developers for core perl
> developers. This book is written for advanced Perl programmers who for
> whatever reason need or wish to peer into that netherworld between Perl, C,
> and the glue that interfaces Perl with other languages. It is a deliberate
> thorough guide led by authors that are both extremely knowledgeable and also
> capable of communicating that knowledge.
> 
> While it would greatly reduce the learning curve, no prior knowledge of C is
> required to read this book. This is a surprising claim and while it won't be
> easy, this reader is proof that someone with little true knowledge of C can
> in fact read and for the most part comprehend what the authors wish to
> convey. 
> 
> There are clearly areas for improvement. Things like NULL being used
> throughout chapter 3, only to finally be defined later in a footnote in
> chapter 4. And other cases of terms being used before they are explained.
> Things that leave the reader juggling unnecessarily until the information is
> provided that lets understanding fall into place. But for the most part, if
> you are a competent juggler and are patient your questions will eventually
> be answered. You won't walk away a C programmer, but you will learn enough
> to solve the problems which led you to consider reading this book in the
> first place.
> 
> One thing I liked very much about the layout of the book is how it switches
> back between presenting sections on C programming and Perl. The authors
> revisit C each time it is necessary to understand the next Perl internals
> topic. Those that are learning C or need the review receive the relevant
> information just before it is required. 
> 
> Over the course of the book, you'll learn about interfacing from Perl to C
> and C back to Perl. For those that must plug references to Tolkien in things
> Perl... you can go back and rephase that into an appropriate reference to
> Bilbo's book "There and Back Again". You'll also learn the perl api, data
> structures for core variable types, and how to work with scalars, arrays,
> hashes, strings, regular expressions, file handles, typeglobs, objects,
> callbacks and PDL with C and C++. And there is even mention of working with
> Fortran, Java, and more esoteric alternatives.
> 
> The book finishes with an in depth look at Perl internals: the parser,
> tokenizer, op code trees, execution, and compiler. And closes with a
> discussion of the Perl development process: How it may be monitored and
> participated in.
> 
> What's missing? Detailed coverage of the I/O subsystem and the regular
> expression engine. I.e., topics which might themselves make for a good book.
> There was also light coverage on things like scratchpads. There were times
> while reading when I didn't know whether the issue being discussed was fully
> covered or curtailed. But you will certainly find better coverage of the
> issues in this book than elsewhere. This is an impressive book. I hope it
> will greatly influence the way Perl6 internals are documented.
> 
> 

-- 
//========================================================\\
||  D. Hageman                    <dhageman@dracken.com>  ||
\\========================================================//

From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 24 10:48:54 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:07 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C7A@EXCH_MISSION>

D. Hageman wrote
> 
> I think I might be able to be persuaded to give a presentation
> on XML::LibXML.  If I do ... I will diverge also into 
> XML::LibXSLT as well since both modules go hand-in-hand
> together.  At this point - I am not confident I can do the
> April meeting though.  I seem to have too many irons in the
> fire at the momment with work and extra curricular 
> programming.

That'd be great.

Can I etch your name in jello for the May presentation?

If you are able to make it to the April meeting, perhaps a 5 minute
lightning-talk teaser would be possible? Any way/when you wish to do it
consider the thumbscrews of persuasion to be applied ;)

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                   Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road               Main: 913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202              Fax: 913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett@scriptpro.com
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From garrett at scriptpro.com  Mon Mar 24 10:58:18 2003
From: garrett at scriptpro.com (Garrett Goebel)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:07 2004
Subject: [Kc] Book Review: Extending and Embedding Perl
Message-ID: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C7B@EXCH_MISSION>

D. Hageman wrote:
> 
> Excellent review!

thanks.
 

> Last week I wrote my first perl interface to a C library.
> It was quite a bit of fun, but I discovered that
> documentation is severly lacking.  I had the most trouble
> with the "typemap".  It seems that all documents just 
> seem to gloss over this very important part of the process.  
> 
> A collection of good examples that really helped me out can 
> be found at:
> 
> http://search.cpan.org/author/DMR/
> 
> Dean Roehrich has two little "CookBooks" on the subject matter.

nice! very nice...

I never figured out how to create a typemap for a struct so that I could use
the struct as an argument in a call to a function in a C library. Note... a
struct not a pointer to a struct. There are a couple functions in the
Win32API which actually take things like a POINT or a RECT as an argument
and not just a pointer to it. I've worked around this by passing each member
of the struct as separate arguments. But it always bugged me that I couldn't
find a way to actually pass the struct itself as an argument.

--
Garrett Goebel
IS Development Specialist

ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261
5828 Reeds Road            Main:   913.384.1008
Mission, KS 66202          Fax:    913.384.2180
www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com

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From whatever at davidnicol.com  Mon Mar 24 16:51:27 2003
From: whatever at davidnicol.com (david nicol)
Date: Mon Aug  2 21:31:07 2004
Subject: [Kc] Next months presentation... which topic?
In-Reply-To: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C74@EXCH_MISSION>
References: <71BEC0D4E1DED3118F7A009027B12028034C8C74@EXCH_MISSION>
Message-ID: <1048546286.1341.9.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Ihave RAPNAP database in place and I'm working on things
that use it; the first application is a delivery agent.

beta2@tipjar.com is where I am testing the delivery agent; please
write to that address to register your RAPNAP (Return Address, Network
Peer Address Pair.)



On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 08:39, Garrett Goebel wrote:
> david nicol wrote:
> > 
> > I guess I could make a presentation on RAPNAPs.  I'm working
> > on a RAPNAP client module which I will upload to CPAN as
> > well as using it inthe other portions of pay2send infrastructure.
> 
> What is a RAPNAP client? A quick search on google doesn't turn up
> much.
> 
> For list subscribers who aren't familiar with David's pay2send
> project... The short summary, is that it is an email service which
> solves the problem of receiving undesired email by creating a default
> toll/filter on unsolicited email. I.e., when the recipient puts a
> token price on the act of sending them an email, spam finally has an
> associated cost for the spammer. Plus, receiving email becomes a
> potential mechanism for putting pennies in your own jar :) 
> 
> I've finally replaced sendmail with qmail at home. I think a grounding
> talk on how internet email works with a side on spam filtering would
> be an interesting presentation in itself. And could be used as a
> foundation for a presentation on the architecture of pay2send and a
> discussion of the problems it solves. There is so much detail to be
> covered... that if you'd be willing... it'd probably be easier for us
> lay-people to follow in 2 installments instead of 1 whirlwind tour ;)
> 
> However you decide to do it, I'd love to hear more about your progress
> with pay2send.
> 
> Garrett
> 
> --
> Garrett Goebel
> IS Development Specialist
> 
> ScriptPro                  Direct: 913.403.5261
> 5828 Reeds Road            Main:   913.384.1008
> Mission, KS 66202          Fax:    913.384.2180
> www.scriptpro.com          garrett at scriptpro dot com
-- 
David Nicol, independent consultant and contractor
perl -Mcoroutine0 -e'$c=new coroutine0 VARS=>[],BODY=>q"YIELD 74;
YIELD 65;YIELD 80;YIELD 72; YIELD 10;";for(;;){print chr(&$c||die)};'