From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Wed Jul 21 07:56:17 2010
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:56:17 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] July meeting(s)
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>

Tomorrow, 22nd July, is the fourth Thursday of the month, so time for
our regular, orthodox meeting in the Cumberland Bar.  See you all
there.

I dare say that our local Heretic General will soon have something to
say about the 29th...

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From hakim.cassimally at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 08:25:22 2010
From: hakim.cassimally at gmail.com (Hakim Cassimally)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:25:22 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] July meeting(s)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJE9rJMyFQnBWoxxQSfVvF0eq8DUhQPL3fG6lJ@mail.gmail.com>

/me hits reply, enters list address, grumbles about lack of reply-to
munging, ducks, waits for holy-war to subside.

On 21 July 2010 15:56, Aaron Crane <perl at aaroncrane.co.uk> wrote:
> Tomorrow, 22nd July, is the fourth Thursday of the month, so time for
> our regular, orthodox meeting in the Cumberland Bar. ?See you all
> there.

Hurrah!  I'm around so I'll be there.  What time will people start to arrive?

osfameron

From perl at minty.org  Wed Jul 21 08:39:38 2010
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:39:38 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] July meeting(s)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJE9rJMyFQnBWoxxQSfVvF0eq8DUhQPL3fG6lJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikJE9rJMyFQnBWoxxQSfVvF0eq8DUhQPL3fG6lJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100721153933.GA6733@minty.org>

> On 21 July 2010 15:56, Aaron Crane <perl at aaroncrane.co.uk> wrote:
> > Tomorrow, 22nd July, is the fourth Thursday of the month, so time for
> > our regular, orthodox meeting in the Cumberland Bar. ?See you all
> > there.

w00t!

> What time will people start to arrive?

Probably about 6ish for me, but twist my arm if you wanted earlier.

From perl at minty.org  Wed Jul 21 09:07:26 2010
From: perl at minty.org (Murray)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:07:26 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] July meeting(s)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100721160726.GE6733@minty.org>

I've booked a table from 6pm in my name.

From robrwo at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 01:48:28 2010
From: robrwo at gmail.com (Robert Rothenberg)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:48:28 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] July meeting(s)
In-Reply-To: <20100721160726.GE6733@minty.org>
References: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721160726.GE6733@minty.org>
Message-ID: <4C4805DC.2070209@gmail.com>

On 21/07/10 17:07 Murray wrote:
> I've booked a table from 6pm in my name.

I plan on being there tonight, though probably after 6pm.

From wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 11:48:52 2010
From: wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com (Wim Vanderbauwhede)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:48:52 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] July meeting(s)
In-Reply-To: <4C4805DC.2070209@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinMp24jKQO6LOdTRPidzGeC4nBprGZ53Ajq7sBU@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721160726.GE6733@minty.org> <4C4805DC.2070209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik0VG5OvxAZH4tw_Cars0vo8Rs3xXweA2k6WYwX@mail.gmail.com>

Can't make it tonight, sorry, but next week should be OK.

Wim

On 22 July 2010 09:48, Robert Rothenberg <robrwo at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21/07/10 17:07 Murray wrote:
>>
>> I've booked a table from 6pm in my name.
>
> I plan on being there tonight, though probably after 6pm.
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>



-- 
If it's pointless, what's the point?
If there is a point to it, what's the point?
(Tibor Fischer, "The Thought Gang")

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Fri Jul 23 03:36:26 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:36:26 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Consequences will never be the same
Message-ID: <20100723103626.GD2200@assyrian.org.uk>

I mentioned the animated badfic "Half Life: Full Life Consequences" last
night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHxyZaZlaOs

The first two are well worth watching, the subsequent ones less so.

Miles


-- 
I was reading about those birds who are trying to split the atom, the
nub being that they haven't the foggiest as to what will happen if they
do...  And pretty silly a chap would feel, no doubt, if, having split
the atom, he suddenly found the house going up in smoke and himself torn
limb from limb.
  -- PG Wodehouse, "Right Ho, Jeeves"

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Wed Jul 28 06:28:00 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:28:00 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
Message-ID: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>

Siblings in Last-Thursdayhood!

The appointed day for the celebration of our monthly rite is tomorrow.
The Cumberland having been desecrated by the black rituals of the
Fourth-Thursdayite schismatics, we must find an alternative temple.

[Until, of course, the appointed time, when the stars shall align and we
shall rise again and overthrow the oppressive Fourth-Thursdayite junta.
Ia!]

The suggestions so far are

(1) The Stockbridge Tap
(2) Some bar on Candlemaker Row whose name I've forgotten
(3) Dagda.

I know I said I'd organise a reconnaissance-in-force of option (2), but
I wasn't feeling up to it at the weekend. Sorry.

So, votes? (1) was nice last time we went, but is a bit far out and hard
to find; (3)'s nice and does good beer, but is a bit small. I vote we go
for (2) and move on to the White Hart if it turns out to suck.

Now, can anyone remind me what said bar's called?

Miles.

PS Or we could go to the Cumberland. Enough purifying libations would
probably render it acceptable.
PPS http://rt.com/Russia_Now/Russiapedia/Those_Russians/lthe-lykovs.html

-- 
Fortunately, in a language like Lisp you don't have to live with all
the decisions of the designers.
  -- Paul Graham

From cyocum at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 06:52:49 2010
From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:52:49 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4C503631.1020507@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

IIRC, there were two pubs on that street (Merchants St.). One of them is
"in the basement" according to Aaron.  The other one is called
"merchants pub" and you can see it from George IV Bridge.  If you want
to meet a Greyfriars Bobby's statue, I can show you how to get there.

Chris

On 28/07/10 14:28, Miles Gould wrote:
> Siblings in Last-Thursdayhood!
> 
> The appointed day for the celebration of our monthly rite is tomorrow.
> The Cumberland having been desecrated by the black rituals of the
> Fourth-Thursdayite schismatics, we must find an alternative temple.
> 
> [Until, of course, the appointed time, when the stars shall align and we
> shall rise again and overthrow the oppressive Fourth-Thursdayite junta.
> Ia!]
> 
> The suggestions so far are
> 
> (1) The Stockbridge Tap
> (2) Some bar on Candlemaker Row whose name I've forgotten
> (3) Dagda.
> 
> I know I said I'd organise a reconnaissance-in-force of option (2), but
> I wasn't feeling up to it at the weekend. Sorry.
> 
> So, votes? (1) was nice last time we went, but is a bit far out and hard
> to find; (3)'s nice and does good beer, but is a bit small. I vote we go
> for (2) and move on to the White Hart if it turns out to suck.
> 
> Now, can anyone remind me what said bar's called?
> 
> Miles.
> 
> PS Or we could go to the Cumberland. Enough purifying libations would
> probably render it acceptable.
> PPS http://rt.com/Russia_Now/Russiapedia/Those_Russians/lthe-lykovs.html
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkxQNjEACgkQTsMNflSecIZmLACgh6wjPYzK2Swugj95Gy53sGsB
0dEAniVWzRJ4Myq9vezCMsekbMqS+8If
=3JCD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Wed Jul 28 07:15:32 2010
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:15:32 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>

Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> (1) The Stockbridge Tap
> (2) Some bar on Candlemaker Row whose name I've forgotten
> (3) Dagda.

(2) is "Under the Stairs", 3a Merchant Street:

http://www.underthestairs.org/

Definitely more of a bar than a pub ? think cocktails rather than
draught ales, but they have a reasonable selection of bottled beers.
I liked the atmosphere when I was there; and, contrary to my
recollection, they do serve food (including bar food till very late).
Their food and drink menus are on their website, conveniently enough.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From cyocum at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 07:25:58 2010
From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:25:58 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sounds like a plan to me.

Chris

On 28/07/10 15:15, Aaron Crane wrote:
> Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
>> (1) The Stockbridge Tap
>> (2) Some bar on Candlemaker Row whose name I've forgotten
>> (3) Dagda.
> 
> (2) is "Under the Stairs", 3a Merchant Street:
> 
> http://www.underthestairs.org/
> 
> Definitely more of a bar than a pub ? think cocktails rather than
> draught ales, but they have a reasonable selection of bottled beers.
> I liked the atmosphere when I was there; and, contrary to my
> recollection, they do serve food (including bar food till very late).
> Their food and drink menus are on their website, conveniently enough.
> 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkxQPfYACgkQTsMNflSecIarqACg0aoqTeTSKJFMG/VSqyT0tfyI
CxgAoMWGxTcLLfKWcAhCOzhQI2g1yKkm
=BC+o
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 08:24:16 2010
From: wim.vanderbauwhede at gmail.com (Wim Vanderbauwhede)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:24:16 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Under the Stairs it is then? I'll be there from 6-ish

Cheers,

Wim

On 28 July 2010 15:25, Chris Yocum <cyocum at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Sounds like a plan to me.
>
> Chris
>
> On 28/07/10 15:15, Aaron Crane wrote:
>> Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
>>> (1) The Stockbridge Tap
>>> (2) Some bar on Candlemaker Row whose name I've forgotten
>>> (3) Dagda.
>>
>> (2) is "Under the Stairs", 3a Merchant Street:
>>
>> http://www.underthestairs.org/
>>
>> Definitely more of a bar than a pub ? think cocktails rather than
>> draught ales, but they have a reasonable selection of bottled beers.
>> I liked the atmosphere when I was there; and, contrary to my
>> recollection, they do serve food (including bar food till very late).
>> Their food and drink menus are on their website, conveniently enough.
>>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkxQPfYACgkQTsMNflSecIarqACg0aoqTeTSKJFMG/VSqyT0tfyI
> CxgAoMWGxTcLLfKWcAhCOzhQI2g1yKkm
> =BC+o
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm



-- 
If it's pointless, what's the point?
If there is a point to it, what's the point?
(Tibor Fischer, "The Thought Gang")

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Wed Jul 28 08:35:22 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:35:22 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100728153522.GF28447@assyrian.org.uk>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 04:24:16PM +0100, Wim Vanderbauwhede wrote:
> Under the Stairs it is then? I'll be there from 6-ish

Sounds like it.

See you all there!

Miles

-- 
What fun is life if you allow yourself to be limited by the possible?
  -- Scott Meyers

From hakim.cassimally at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 05:56:17 2010
From: hakim.cassimally at gmail.com (Hakim Cassimally)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:56:17 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <20100728153522.GF28447@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100728153522.GF28447@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinq-SW61HGgoo29StTp6chLur=bpeYJORM4J-pb@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 July 2010 16:35, Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 04:24:16PM +0100, Wim Vanderbauwhede wrote:
>> Under the Stairs it is then? I'll be there from 6-ish
>
> See you all there!

I'll be there a bit later hopefully, see yous then!

osf'

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Thu Jul 29 07:39:28 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:39:28 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100729143928.GE28447@assyrian.org.uk>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 04:24:16PM +0100, Wim Vanderbauwhede wrote:
> Under the Stairs it is then? I'll be there from 6-ish

Doubt I'll make it for 6, but I shouldn't be too much later than that.

Miles

-- 
Troutbreath?
  -- Spenser

From oliver.saunders at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 14:54:38 2010
From: oliver.saunders at gmail.com (Ollie Saunders)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:54:38 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Beer money
Message-ID: <AANLkTikCA5rqBP2pPXaqeJGTYkRXA4Y-Vcthbd6wEBep@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I realized after I left the meet up today that I hadn't paid
for my beer. I'm be happy to reimburse whoever covered for me next
time. Thanks.

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Fri Jul 30 04:26:19 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:26:19 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Beer money
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikCA5rqBP2pPXaqeJGTYkRXA4Y-Vcthbd6wEBep@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikCA5rqBP2pPXaqeJGTYkRXA4Y-Vcthbd6wEBep@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100730112619.GA11723@assyrian.org.uk>

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:54:38PM +0100, Ollie Saunders wrote:
> Sorry, I realized after I left the meet up today that I hadn't paid
> for my beer. I'm be happy to reimburse whoever covered for me next
> time. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure I ended up paying less than my fair share, too, so
please speak up if you got stiffed.

BTW: I've collected together my various posts on the argmunging problem
at

http://pozorvlak.livejournal.com/tag/argmungers

I didn't get around to explaining how it ties into my PhD research, but
here's an outline. An *operad* O is a sequence of sets O_0, O_1, O_2,...
(we think of O_n as a set of operators X^n -> X, for some X), equipped
with an argmunging function #. So if f : {1..m} -> {1..n} and o is in
O_m, then f#o is in O_n. Operators can be composed associatively, and
this is compatible with the argmunger in the ways you'd expect [but you,
unlike me, do not have to work out exactly what these ways are and write
them down...]. Argmunging is also compatible with function composition:
g#(f#o) = (g.f)#o.

Here's the picture to keep in mind:

http://imgur.com/kcAdJ.png

That's not the usual definition of operad - it's actually a bit more
general than the usual one, and phrased differently. But isolating the
concept of argmungers allowed me to (a) play around with restricting the
munging functions in different ways, which turned out to be crucial, (b)
greatly simplify a few key proofs. So, arguing with fanboys on the
Internet is very occasionally a good idea :-)

The whole thing's at http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.0879v1, if anyone's
interested :-)

I don't have any very good links for the stuff I was trying to say about
simplices and face/degeneracy maps. This is the best I could find:

http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/simplicial+set

The relation to associativity is explained in Example 2, but what it
doesn't mention is that every category (= directed graph with
associative composition of arrows) is entirely determined by its nerve.
So in some sense, categories are just special simplicial sets...

Miles

[1]  :-)

-- 
When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only
how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is
not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
  -- Buckminster Fuller

From hakim.cassimally at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 04:31:08 2010
From: hakim.cassimally at gmail.com (Hakim Cassimally)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:31:08 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Beer money
In-Reply-To: <20100730112619.GA11723@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <AANLkTikCA5rqBP2pPXaqeJGTYkRXA4Y-Vcthbd6wEBep@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100730112619.GA11723@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin=58fPx8UQrzozbnDJpwVcXdEv9w-J+DdfG-gn@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 July 2010 12:26, Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:54:38PM +0100, Ollie Saunders wrote:
>> Sorry, I realized after I left the meet up today that I hadn't paid
>> for my beer. I'm be happy to reimburse whoever covered for me next
>> time. Thanks.
>
> I'm pretty sure I ended up paying less than my fair share, too, so
> please speak up if you got stiffed.

An innovation I like a lot is the london.pm "beer glass stuffed with money".

As mongers arrive, they stick a fiver, tenner, twenty, whatever in a
beer glass, to cover the likely amount of drinks they'll have.  As
drinks are bought, someone takes the glass to the bar and pays with
that.

If you've drunk more than you paid for, then you pay some more.  It's
entirely possible to abuse, but I don't think anyone does.  Mostly, by
the end of the night, there is a bit of money left over, which can be
used to tip the staff or divvied out.

The great advantage though it's not subject to the random fluctuations
of money spent on "your round" ;-)

osfameron (Hakim)

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Fri Jul 30 09:09:15 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:09:15 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] DaliBug
Message-ID: <20100730160915.GG11723@assyrian.org.uk>

Hi all,

I thought you might like an update on my crazy bug from hell.

What's /actually/ happening, it turns out, is that the test fails when
compiled with -O0 or -O1, and passes with -O2 or above. When I tried to
get the .s file to diff manually, I didn't pass in a -O flag at all, and
so got the default level of optimisation (-O2, I'm guessing...). When I
diffed the .s file from the broken compiler against the .s file from the
good compiler, I found the % discrepancy, and assumed that was the
problem.  But it wasn't, because either .s would have worked, not having
been compiled with -O1.

Aaron's suggestion of getting the .s file using cc -S rather than
invoking the inner compiler directly was crucial to my uncovering this.
So, thanks very much, Aaron!

Now, to work out what's /really/ going wrong...

Miles

-- 
You say this as if it were a gentle afternoon's exercise, rather than
a lifetime of quiet torture.
  -- Simon Cozens

From iainspeed at gmail.com  Sat Jul 31 09:21:43 2010
From: iainspeed at gmail.com (Iain Barnett)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:21:43 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Regex not matching what I expect (or want:)
Message-ID: <C99C50DA-7D77-40FD-9EE2-3B3AFE4F58D0@gmail.com>

Hi,

If I run this (perl 5.12):

$n = "8907455758584";
@ns = $n =~ /\d{3}/g;
print "@ns";

I get this:
890 745 575 858

I expected (and wanted) this:
890 907 074 745 455 557 575 758 585 858 584


I'm not sure why it's not backtracking to look at the string again?

Any help is much appreciated.

Regards,
Iain

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Sat Jul 31 11:19:18 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:19:18 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Regex not matching what I expect (or want:)
In-Reply-To: <C99C50DA-7D77-40FD-9EE2-3B3AFE4F58D0@gmail.com>
References: <C99C50DA-7D77-40FD-9EE2-3B3AFE4F58D0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100731181918.GA28392@assyrian.org.uk>

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 05:21:43PM +0100, Iain Barnett wrote:
> $n = "8907455758584";
> @ns = $n =~ /\d{3}/g;
> print "@ns";

Some Googling turns up this page:

http://linuxshellaccount.blogspot.com/2008/09/finding-overlapping-matches-using-perls.html

which says that you need to use lookahead assertions (which don't
swallow characters that they match) to get all overlapping matches. This
code does what you want.

#! /usr/bin/perl

use 5.010;

$n = "8907455758584";
@ns = $n =~ /(?=(\d{3}))/g;
say "@ns";

HTH,
Miles

-- 
Lispers are among the best grads of the Sweep-It-Under-Someone-Else's-Carpet
School of Simulated Simplicity.
  -- Larry Wall

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Sat Jul 31 11:20:23 2010
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:20:23 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] DaliBug
In-Reply-To: <20100730160915.GG11723@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20100730160915.GG11723@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik5bFi18NjJwVQHLhSSz3_JoLN5qHRZXXrJ6A3x@mail.gmail.com>

Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> What's /actually/ happening, it turns out, is that the test fails when
> compiled with -O0 or -O1, and passes with -O2 or above.

Here's a random guess: there's a compiler bug which is present at all
optimisation levels, but happens to be hidden by an optimisation
enabled at -O2 ? perhaps an IR structure that's mishandled is only
ever present at -O1 or -O0, because -O2 changes the underlying code to
something else first.  Or (less likely, I suspect) the unoptimised
code tickles a CPU bug in the same sort of way.

Can the individual optimisations in -O2 compared to -O1 be enabled
selectively?  If so, you could try bisecting the list of optimisations
to find the one which magically makes the test pass.  And if you're
unlucky, it'll be some *set* of individual optimisations.

I don't envy you tracking that down. :-(

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From perl at aaroncrane.co.uk  Sat Jul 31 11:32:06 2010
From: perl at aaroncrane.co.uk (Aaron Crane)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:32:06 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Regex not matching what I expect (or want:)
In-Reply-To: <20100731181918.GA28392@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <C99C50DA-7D77-40FD-9EE2-3B3AFE4F58D0@gmail.com> 
	<20100731181918.GA28392@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimdgjWPx4FLm0kfMFGs7uJ1NOc+wE6EA4S9B1wN@mail.gmail.com>

Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> to get all overlapping matches
>
> $n = "8907455758584";
> @ns = $n =~ /(?=(\d{3}))/g;
> say "@ns";

An alternative approach:

  my $n = "8907455758584";
  my @ns;
  while ($n =~ /\G(\d{3})/g) {
      push @ns, $1;
      pos($n) = $-[0] + 1;
  }
  say "@ns";

The crucial bit is the assignment to pos($n); see `perldoc -f pos` for
what that does.

This is more complicated (and probably slower) for this specific task,
but I think there are overlapping-match situations where the lookahead
technique wouldn't work, and a variant of this approach would ? you
can make the next match attempt to start at any arbitrary position in
the string, even choosing it based on what match you found.

-- 
Aaron Crane ** http://aaroncrane.co.uk/

From hakim.cassimally at gmail.com  Sat Jul 31 12:20:15 2010
From: hakim.cassimally at gmail.com (Hakim Cassimally)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:20:15 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <20100729143928.GE28447@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729143928.GE28447@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLTj76xC-LL9yF+5C2PxSo_h4NAbRVfUwmRbNG@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!  It was great to meet up with you all on Thursday.
If anyone is interested in a sneak preview of the radio show based on
the stuff I recorded, you can catch it here:

  http://greenokapi.net/.for_yapc/RadioYAPC_0.mp3

(or s/mp3/m4a/, if you have an aversion to mp3).
Comments and suggestions welcome, or alternatively just laugh at how
awful my sound-engineering skills are :D

osfameron

On 29 July 2010 15:39, Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 04:24:16PM +0100, Wim Vanderbauwhede wrote:
>> Under the Stairs it is then? I'll be there from 6-ish
>
> Doubt I'll make it for 6, but I shouldn't be too much later than that.
>
> Miles
>
> --
> Troutbreath?
> ?-- Spenser
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Sat Jul 31 12:53:58 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:53:58 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Heretical sabbat
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikLTj76xC-LL9yF+5C2PxSo_h4NAbRVfUwmRbNG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100728132800.GB28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTinj34QU2X0mi6ouxqpSVxgZ3sY5GNXZM7ScY0E2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C503DF6.3050606@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimMR7R9ubqNAbc+8dxjYVZ6ZhqzTaZ6d1uSMHzQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729143928.GE28447@assyrian.org.uk>
	<AANLkTikLTj76xC-LL9yF+5C2PxSo_h4NAbRVfUwmRbNG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100731195358.GC28392@assyrian.org.uk>

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 08:20:15PM +0100, Hakim Cassimally wrote:
> (or s/mp3/m4a/, if you have an aversion to mp3).
> Comments and suggestions welcome, or alternatively just laugh at how
> awful my sound-engineering skills are :D

I really enjoyed that :-)

Though you're right, I was a bit OTT - the best days of my /working/
life, perhaps :-)

Miles

-- 
Occam's Razor is the wrong tool. The correct tool is Goldberg's Rogaine,
which states that the most complex answer to any problem must be true.
  -- baconmonkey

From miles at assyrian.org.uk  Sat Jul 31 13:07:09 2010
From: miles at assyrian.org.uk (Miles Gould)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:07:09 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Someone is wrong on the Internet,
	and I'm worried it's me
Message-ID: <20100731200709.GD28392@assyrian.org.uk>

Help! I said something unsupported on Twitter, and now I'm being asked
to justify it.

Enraged by the discovery that there are language designers who think
it's OK to provide textual whole-file inclusion as the sole
code-reuse mechanism in fecking 2010, I tweeted

LANGUAGE DESIGNERS: unless you have a really good idea for a module
system, just copy Perl or O'Caml. You have no excuse for failure.

Within minutes, someone replied

@pozorvlak I don't know Perl or O'Caml's module systems - how to they
compare with Python?

Here's what I'm thinking of replying:

. at ColinTheMathmo Perl's is very similar in easy cases, but has
import-time hooks which can be (ab)used to great effect.
. at ColinTheMathmo O'Caml's is best-of-breed among statically-typed
languages: modules are first-class and can be parametrized.

Fair enough?

TIA,
Miles

-- 
DWIM - Do What I Meant. It describes Perl's sometimes uncanny ability to
do what you actually meant to do rather than what you thought you meant
to tell Perl to think that you meant to tell it to do. Or something like
that. -- Bernard El-Hagin in comp.lang.perl.misc

From cyocum at gmail.com  Sat Jul 31 13:14:01 2010
From: cyocum at gmail.com (Chris Yocum)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:14:01 +0100
Subject: [Edinburgh-pm] Someone is wrong on the Internet,
	and I'm worried 	it's me
In-Reply-To: <20100731200709.GD28392@assyrian.org.uk>
References: <20100731200709.GD28392@assyrian.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinByPgtPzn65oP_RVatzoz6YmqhSKbVCZ+wXuWg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Miles,

Yeah, those sound fine.  O'Caml's first class modules are coming in
O'Caml 3.12 which is in RC at the moment.

Chris

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 9:07 PM, Miles Gould <miles at assyrian.org.uk> wrote:
> Help! I said something unsupported on Twitter, and now I'm being asked
> to justify it.
>
> Enraged by the discovery that there are language designers who think
> it's OK to provide textual whole-file inclusion as the sole
> code-reuse mechanism in fecking 2010, I tweeted
>
> LANGUAGE DESIGNERS: unless you have a really good idea for a module
> system, just copy Perl or O'Caml. You have no excuse for failure.
>
> Within minutes, someone replied
>
> @pozorvlak I don't know Perl or O'Caml's module systems - how to they
> compare with Python?
>
> Here's what I'm thinking of replying:
>
> . at ColinTheMathmo Perl's is very similar in easy cases, but has
> import-time hooks which can be (ab)used to great effect.
> . at ColinTheMathmo O'Caml's is best-of-breed among statically-typed
> languages: modules are first-class and can be parametrized.
>
> Fair enough?
>
> TIA,
> Miles
>
> --
> DWIM - Do What I Meant. It describes Perl's sometimes uncanny ability to
> do what you actually meant to do rather than what you thought you meant
> to tell Perl to think that you meant to tell it to do. Or something like
> that. -- Bernard El-Hagin in comp.lang.perl.misc
> _______________________________________________
> Edinburgh-pm mailing list
> Edinburgh-pm at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/edinburgh-pm
>