From andy at petdance.com  Tue May  1 08:12:24 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:12:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
Message-ID: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>

http://code.google.com/p/perl101/

I've put the code for perl101.org out on Google Code (which is having  
connectivity problems as I type this).  I want to get contributions  
from folks if you want to sign up and get commit privs to the repo.

Note that there are two mailing lists: perl101-talk and perl101-commits.

I'd love to have Chicago.pm help drive this to a state where I feel  
comfortable announcing to a wide audience.

We'll be working on perl101 and common questions as the 2nd half of  
our next meeting.

Thanks,
xoxo,
Andy


--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance






From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com  Tue May  1 08:16:26 2007
From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:16:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
In-Reply-To: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
References: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <c114984c0705010816i63693dfeq75b0f934a75d35b2@mail.gmail.com>

What should be here other than a link to perldoc and cpan?  I don't
mean that sarcastically, but isn't this a duplication of work already
done?

On 5/1/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
> http://code.google.com/p/perl101/
>
> I've put the code for perl101.org out on Google Code (which is having
> connectivity problems as I type this).  I want to get contributions
> from folks if you want to sign up and get commit privs to the repo.
>
> Note that there are two mailing lists: perl101-talk and perl101-commits.
>
> I'd love to have Chicago.pm help drive this to a state where I feel
> comfortable announcing to a wide audience.
>
> We'll be working on perl101 and common questions as the 2nd half of
> our next meeting.
>
> Thanks,
> xoxo,
> Andy
>
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com
Perl Programmer
Soccer Referee

From andy at petdance.com  Tue May  1 08:22:33 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:22:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
In-Reply-To: <c114984c0705010816i63693dfeq75b0f934a75d35b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
	<c114984c0705010816i63693dfeq75b0f934a75d35b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5212F94-E5F7-4B47-ADE3-17A63C2DEAEC@petdance.com>


On May 1, 2007, at 10:16 AM, Shawn Carroll wrote:

> What should be here other than a link to perldoc and cpan?  I don't
> mean that sarcastically, but isn't this a duplication of work already
> done?

If we didn't duplicate things that were already done, we'd have no  
need for books.  Why have Damian's OOP book?  It's all in the Perl  
docs, right?

People don't know what they don't know.  Guys like us, we know Perl,  
we've been through it, we know how to do common stuff, common idioms.

How does a new user know...

... to use Data::Dumper?
... how to access databases, or check websites?
... how to delete a file from disk?
... that The Perl Review exists?

Consider especially someone coming from PHP or Java.

The title of the site is "What Every Perl Programmer Should Know",  
and I'm trying to limit it to that.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance






From zrusilla at mac.com  Tue May  1 08:42:18 2007
From: zrusilla at mac.com (zrusilla at mac.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 08:42:18 -0700
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
In-Reply-To: <c114984c0705010816i63693dfeq75b0f934a75d35b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
	<c114984c0705010816i63693dfeq75b0f934a75d35b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12A201FB-2FD0-41C8-98AB-196AE65ED21D@mac.com>

As Andy said, it's tailored to a particular audience.  The   
voluminous literature on Perl is daunting even to those of us who  
have been around for a while.

A good summary has a lot of value.  Freelance writers get up to speed  
on a new topic by reading children's books, which can be surprisingly  
good precis of the subject.

Liz


> What should be here other than a link to perldoc and cpan?  I don't
> mean that sarcastically, but isn't this a duplication of work already
> done?

From tdenkinger at gmail.com  Tue May  1 08:48:28 2007
From: tdenkinger at gmail.com (Troy Denkinger)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:48:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
In-Reply-To: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
References: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <b98e048e0705010848x68ab634dp280d9a9ff0ecee84@mail.gmail.com>

Andy,

Fortuitous timing for this to come through.  I've been kicking around
looking for a project that needs help, and perl101 is right up my alley.
I'd love to help out.

If you want to know anything about me before granting privs, let me know.

Regards,

Troy Denkinger
www.denkinger.us

On 5/1/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> http://code.google.com/p/perl101/
>
> I've put the code for perl101.org out on Google Code (which is having
> connectivity problems as I type this).  I want to get contributions
> from folks if you want to sign up and get commit privs to the repo.
>
> Note that there are two mailing lists: perl101-talk and perl101-commits.
>
> I'd love to have Chicago.pm help drive this to a state where I feel
> comfortable announcing to a wide audience.
>
> We'll be working on perl101 and common questions as the 2nd half of
> our next meeting.
>
> Thanks,
> xoxo,
> Andy
>
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
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From andy at petdance.com  Tue May  1 08:51:12 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:51:12 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
In-Reply-To: <b98e048e0705010848x68ab634dp280d9a9ff0ecee84@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
	<b98e048e0705010848x68ab634dp280d9a9ff0ecee84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <077E37D1-74FC-4BC8-B14E-7B2A0BF264DC@petdance.com>


On May 1, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Troy Denkinger wrote:

> Fortuitous timing for this to come through.  I've been kicking  
> around looking for a project that needs help, and perl101 is right  
> up my alley.  I'd love to help out.
>
> If you want to know anything about me before granting privs, let me  
> know.

Well, tell me what you'd like to update.  Give examples.  Write  
something up that would be worth adding.

And sign up for perl101-talk on the site.


--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance






From frag at ripco.com  Tue May  1 09:00:15 2007
From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:00:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
In-Reply-To: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
References: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0705011059000.9089@shell3>



On Tue, 1 May 2007, Andy Lester wrote:

> http://code.google.com/p/perl101/
>
> I've put the code for perl101.org out on Google Code (which is having
> connectivity problems as I type this).

"Code"?  Is there a webapp backend to the site you're working on, or do 
you just mean the HTML?

-- Mike F.


From andy at petdance.com  Tue May  1 09:04:10 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:04:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Perl 101 is ramping up
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0705011059000.9089@shell3>
References: <EC602DBC-02E2-47C5-8AF7-1C92CE0D5A58@petdance.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.61.0705011059000.9089@shell3>
Message-ID: <4211EE79-7504-44D9-B044-5143624583E2@petdance.com>


On May 1, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Mike Fragassi wrote:

> "Code"?  Is there a webapp backend to the site you're working on,  
> or do
> you just mean the HTML?

The source is in POD.  I have a little makefile that cranks out HTML  
from it.

xoa

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance






From list at phaedrusdeinus.org  Wed May  2 14:47:01 2007
From: list at phaedrusdeinus.org (John Melesky)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 16:47:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Announcing TechCoffee, Season 4
Message-ID: <02A9DBA2-0F25-4E5C-A29C-221D80E63A4B@phaedrusdeinus.org>

Hear, ye! Hear, ye! TechCoffee is set to begin its fourth Season!

TechCoffee Season 4 starts Monday, May 7th, at 6AM, and continues for  
ten weeks.

Do you code in your off time? Do you really *want* to code in your  
off time, but end up engaging in debates on Slashdot instead?

At TechCoffee, you get up early, and go hang out for a couple hours  
with other people who are coding. It's like a running club, only  
creative. Or a knitting bee with less chitchat. Or a hackathon that  
lasts only a couple hours.

It's an idea that's had three successful seasons so far, and is  
primed to get us up and out in the morning air.

WHEN: Show up at 6AM Monday morning (May 7th), and every monday  
morning after that, till July 9th.

WHERE: The Caribou Coffee located at 200 N LaSalle (the corner of  
LaSalle and Lake), easily accessible from all L lines.

For more details (including maps and such), hit http://techcoffee.com/

Ten weeks is how long we last. One commit a week is all we ask.

-johnnnnnnnnn


From andy at petdance.com  Thu May  3 07:59:18 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:59:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] May Chicago.PM meetings: Introduction to Unicode
Message-ID: <6DD63630-5266-4F11-B9D7-A88217747C38@petdance.com>

http://rakudo.org/chicago-pm/index.cgi?introduction_to_unicode

Languages other than English are becoming more common in the U.S. The  
Internet opens up communication channels to the entire world. The  
challenge is to communicate with other countries and other cultures.  
The Unicode standard provides a way to communicate in the printed  
characters of the worlds many languages. Clyde Forrester will attempt  
to explain what Unicode is, its history, what it is used for, why it  
is used, and how to use it.

Clyde's talk will only take the first hour at most, so afterwards at  
the May 8th meeting, we may work on sharing more cool tricks from  
perl101.org, and adding new ones to the site. This is a great way for  
Chicago.PM as a group to help give back to the Perl community.

You'll have two opportunities to hear it:

     * May 8th, 2007, 7pm at Illinois Institute of Technology, Rice  
Campus in Wheaton -- No RSVP required
     * May 22nd, 2007, 7pm at Performics in the city -- RSVP required  
by noon to the email address "jmcadams" at the site "performics.com",  
or add your name to this page: http://rakudo.org/chicago-pm/index.cgi? 
introduction_to_unicode

As with all Chicago Perl Mongers meetings, everyone is welcome,  
whether or not you consider yourself a member. We look forward to  
seeing you there!

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance






From jon at jrock.us  Thu May  3 18:05:15 2007
From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:05:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Chicago.pm Emergency Social
Message-ID: <200705032005.16642.jon@jrock.us>

1 month is a long time to wait just to have beer with fellow Perl Mongers, so 
in the spirit of london.pm, I propose an emergency social.  It will consist 
of beer and eating, and will be next Tuesday, 8 May 2007 at 6PM or so, at 
Monk's.  I look forward to seeing you all there!

Please let the list know if you're coming.

beer++

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
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From jon at jrock.us  Thu May  3 18:28:23 2007
From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 20:28:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Chicago.pm Emergency Social
In-Reply-To: <200705032005.16642.jon@jrock.us>
References: <200705032005.16642.jon@jrock.us>
Message-ID: <200705032028.23771.jon@jrock.us>

On Thursday 03 May 2007 08:05:15 pm Jonathan Rockway wrote:
> beer++

Actually, Thursday the 10th.  The 8th is a bad day for people who like 
Wheaton ;)

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
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From e.ellington at gmail.com  Fri May  4 07:32:20 2007
From: e.ellington at gmail.com (Eric Ellington)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:32:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Chicago.pm Emergency Social
In-Reply-To: <200705032028.23771.jon@jrock.us>
References: <200705032005.16642.jon@jrock.us> <200705032028.23771.jon@jrock.us>
Message-ID: <cf13ea7e0705040732x2be0423aub11588ab1f8484@mail.gmail.com>

Where is Monk's at for those of us who don't work in the loop or live
in the city?

On 5/3/07, Jonathan Rockway <jon at jrock.us> wrote:
> On Thursday 03 May 2007 08:05:15 pm Jonathan Rockway wrote:
> > beer++
>
> Actually, Thursday the 10th.  The 8th is a bad day for people who like
> Wheaton ;)
>
> --
> package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
> $,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
> ";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
>


-- 
Eric Ellington
e.ellington at gmail.com

From jon at jrock.us  Fri May  4 07:46:35 2007
From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 09:46:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Chicago.pm Emergency Social
In-Reply-To: <cf13ea7e0705040732x2be0423aub11588ab1f8484@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200705032005.16642.jon@jrock.us> <200705032028.23771.jon@jrock.us>
	<cf13ea7e0705040732x2be0423aub11588ab1f8484@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200705040946.37251.jon@jrock.us>

On Friday 04 May 2007 09:32:20 am Eric Ellington wrote:
> Where is Monk's at for those of us who don't work in the loop or live
> in the city?

http://chicago.citysearch.com/profile/3651329/chicago_il/monk_s_pub.html

205 W Lake St
 Chicago, IL
 60606-1803 
Phone: (312) 357-6665

This is the usual after-meeting hangout, BTW.

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
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From zrusilla at mac.com  Fri May  4 17:42:59 2007
From: zrusilla at mac.com (zrusilla at mac.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:42:59 -0700
Subject: [Chicago-talk] May Chicago.PM meetings: Introduction to Unicode
In-Reply-To: <6DD63630-5266-4F11-B9D7-A88217747C38@petdance.com>
References: <6DD63630-5266-4F11-B9D7-A88217747C38@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <D11AABE8-FFBE-4C90-9620-ED257B048A3A@mac.com>

On Unicode matters Sean Burke is THE MAN. Check out his Unicode slide  
rule at http://masculinehygiene.com/sburke/unicode_sliderule/


> The Unicode standard provides a way to communicate in the printed
> characters of the worlds many languages. Clyde Forrester will attempt
> to explain what Unicode is, its history, what it is used for, why it
> is used, and how to use it.


From chicago.pm at galumph.com  Sun May  6 11:53:16 2007
From: chicago.pm at galumph.com (Elliot Shank)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 13:53:16 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Problem with Exporter as reported by CPAN testers on
	one of my modules.
Message-ID: <463E241C.70007@galumph.com>

I just got a FAIL email on one of my modules that I'm not understanding.

Specifically, it's getting a compilation error:

  "import" is not exported by the Exporter module

the line in question is

  use Exporter qw( import );

What the ?!?.

The person is using 5.6.2 on some version of Debian.  I do development using 5.8.8.

Is there any general reason why this should fail?  Yes, I will obviously check specifically with the person, but I'm asking in the general case.

-- 
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

  -- Benjamin Franklin,
     "An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government
     of Pennsylvania"

From chicago.pm at galumph.com  Sun May  6 12:04:09 2007
From: chicago.pm at galumph.com (Elliot Shank)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 14:04:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Problem with Exporter as reported by CPAN
 testers on	one of my modules.
In-Reply-To: <463E241C.70007@galumph.com>
References: <463E241C.70007@galumph.com>
Message-ID: <463E26A9.1000308@galumph.com>

Ok.  Forget that.  Exporter didn't support this until the version in 5.8.3.  *sigh*.

Elliot Shank wrote:
> I just got a FAIL email on one of my modules that I'm not
> understanding.
> 
> Specifically, it's getting a compilation error:
> 
> "import" is not exported by the Exporter module
> 
> the line in question is
> 
> use Exporter qw( import );
> 
> What the ?!?.
> 
> The person is using 5.6.2 on some version of Debian.  I do
> development using 5.8.8.
> 
> Is there any general reason why this should fail?  Yes, I will
> obviously check specifically with the person, but I'm asking in the
> general case.


-- 
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

  -- Benjamin Franklin,
     "An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government
     of Pennsylvania"

From a.r.ferreira at gmail.com  Sun May  6 16:37:28 2007
From: a.r.ferreira at gmail.com (Adriano Ferreira)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 20:37:28 -0300
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Problem with Exporter as reported by CPAN
	testers on one of my modules.
In-Reply-To: <463E241C.70007@galumph.com>
References: <463E241C.70007@galumph.com>
Message-ID: <73ddeb6c0705061637p260dcd9cq6d146f8d8814b4c4@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/6/07, Elliot Shank <chicago.pm at galumph.com> wrote:
> I just got a FAIL email on one of my modules that I'm not understanding.
>
> Specifically, it's getting a compilation error:
>
>   "import" is not exported by the Exporter module
>
> the line in question is
>
>   use Exporter qw( import );
>
> What the ?!?.
>
> The person is using 5.6.2 on some version of Debian.  I do development using 5.8.8.

I think the right thing to be done would be to declare a dependency on
Exporter 5.59 (which is the first version of dual life for Exporter)
and then

     use Exporter 5.59 qw( import );

But unfortunately at the moment the Exporter-5.59 distribution
(http://search.cpan.org/~ferreira/Exporter-5.59/) is marked as
unauthorized release because the CPAN id FERREIRA was not given
permissions for it. I will try to correct that by talking to
perl5-porters and then everything will be fine.

For that reason, actually one should upgrade Exporter in an older Perl with

   cpan install FERREIRA/Exporter-5.59.tar.gz

instead of a simple

   cpan install Exporter

As far as I know Exporter 5.59 works ok even for 5.00503.

Best regards,
Adriano Ferreira

> Is there any general reason why this should fail?  Yes, I will obviously check specifically with the person, but I'm asking in the general case.
>
> --
> "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
> Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
>   -- Benjamin Franklin,
>      "An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government
>      of Pennsylvania"
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>

From richard at rushlogistics.com  Mon May  7 06:08:00 2007
From: richard at rushlogistics.com (Richard Reina)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 06:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Scalar help.
Message-ID: <44275.97384.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Good Morning,

Hope everybody had a great weekend.

I have a little program called query_aid.pl that helps users here on are land enter information more easily by matching scalar choices as they are matched.  For example if a user begins typing the name "lincoln" it will begin showing him the matches as he types and eliminating records that no longer match with each successive letter that is typed.  The program uses readkey to see if the user has typed a number.  A number means that the user is attempting to make a selection by typing in one of they corresponding numbers for a displayed record.  The program has worked great for years except for one annoying inconvenience.  It deals with adding the first number typed for the selection in the following way:

if ($char > 0) { #it's numeric, they're making a selection
    ReadMode 'normal';
    print $char;
    chomp ($choice = <STDIN>);
    $choice = $char . $choice;
}

Accordingly, if the user accidentally types the wrong first digit of the number (selection) the user cannot backspace and erase the first digit of the selection ($char) and retype it, but instead has to start over. Is there a way to make $char accessible to the user so they can backspace and erase it if they made a mistake?

Thanks for considering my quandary.

Richard


Your beliefs become your thoughts.  Your thoughts become your words.  Your words become your actions.  Your actions become your habits.  Your habits become your values.  Your values become your destiny.  -- Mahatma Gandhi
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From briank at kappacs.com  Mon May  7 07:11:35 2007
From: briank at kappacs.com (Brian Katzung)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 09:11:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Scalar help.
In-Reply-To: <44275.97384.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <44275.97384.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <463F3397.3060203@kappacs.com>

If this is for a *NIX-style system, you might want to consider TIOCSTI 
(simulate typed input) in tty_ioctl(4).

Richard Reina wrote:
> Good Morning,
>
> Hope everybody had a great weekend.
>
> I have a little program called query_aid.pl that helps users here on 
> are land enter information more easily by matching scalar choices as 
> they are matched.  For example if a user begins typing the name 
> "lincoln" it will begin showing him the matches as he types and 
> eliminating records that no longer match with each successive letter 
> that is typed.  The program uses readkey to see if the user has typed 
> a number.  A number means that the user is attempting to make a 
> selection by typing in one of they corresponding numbers for a 
> displayed record.  The program has worked great for years except for 
> one annoying inconvenience.  It deals with adding the first number 
> typed for the selection in the following way:
>
> if ($char > 0) { #it's numeric, they're making a selection
>     ReadMode 'normal';
>     print $char;
>     chomp ($choice = <STDIN>);
>     $choice = $char . $choice;
> }
>
> Accordingly, if the user accidentally types the wrong first digit of 
> the number (selection) the user cannot backspace and erase the first 
> digit of the selection ($char) and retype it, but instead has to start 
> over. Is there a way to make $char accessible to the user so they can 
> backspace and erase it if they made a mistake?
>
> Thanks for considering my quandary.
>
> Richard
-- 
Brian Katzung
Kappa Computer Solutions, LLC
www.kappacs.com 877.367.8837 x1



From richard at rushlogistics.com  Tue May  8 07:16:36 2007
From: richard at rushlogistics.com (Richard Reina)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Scalar help.
In-Reply-To: <463F3397.3060203@kappacs.com>
Message-ID: <797330.20078.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Brian,

Thank you very much for your response.  Would you be able to direct me to where I can get some examples of the syntax for this system call?  I have not had any luck in experimenting with it.

Thanks,

Richard

Brian Katzung <briank at kappacs.com> wrote: If this is for a *NIX-style system, you might want to consider TIOCSTI 
(simulate typed input) in tty_ioctl(4).

Richard Reina wrote:
> Good Morning,
>
> Hope everybody had a great weekend.
>
> I have a little program called query_aid.pl that helps users here on 
> are land enter information more easily by matching scalar choices as 
> they are matched.  For example if a user begins typing the name 
> "lincoln" it will begin showing him the matches as he types and 
> eliminating records that no longer match with each successive letter 
> that is typed.  The program uses readkey to see if the user has typed 
> a number.  A number means that the user is attempting to make a 
> selection by typing in one of they corresponding numbers for a 
> displayed record.  The program has worked great for years except for 
> one annoying inconvenience.  It deals with adding the first number 
> typed for the selection in the following way:
>
> if ($char > 0) { #it's numeric, they're making a selection
>     ReadMode 'normal';
>     print $char;
>     chomp ($choice = );
>     $choice = $char . $choice;
> }
>
> Accordingly, if the user accidentally types the wrong first digit of 
> the number (selection) the user cannot backspace and erase the first 
> digit of the selection ($char) and retype it, but instead has to start 
> over. Is there a way to make $char accessible to the user so they can 
> backspace and erase it if they made a mistake?
>
> Thanks for considering my quandary.
>
> Richard
-- 
Brian Katzung
Kappa Computer Solutions, LLC
www.kappacs.com 877.367.8837 x1


_______________________________________________
Chicago-talk mailing list
Chicago-talk at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk



Your beliefs become your thoughts.  Your thoughts become your words.  Your words become your actions.  Your actions become your habits.  Your habits become your values.  Your values become your destiny.  -- Mahatma Gandhi
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From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Tue May  8 07:18:35 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 09:18:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] ChiPy meeting Thursday May 10, 7pm
Message-ID: <3096c19d0705080718g9657ae2h52f31101cf51f2ad@mail.gmail.com>

Chicago Python User Group
=========================

Come join us for our best meeting ever!

Topics
------

Lightning talks!  setuptools, zvm, bayesian stuff, all kinds of great
mini-talks with a Python twist, bring yours!

Location
--------

Skinnycorp (http://skinnycorp.com)
4043 N. Ravenswood Ave. Chicago Suite 106

About ChiPy
-----------

ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.

ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
Python website: <http://python.org>

From briank at kappacs.com  Wed May  9 07:43:38 2007
From: briank at kappacs.com (Brian Katzung)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:43:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Scalar help.
In-Reply-To: <797330.20078.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <797330.20078.qm@web611.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4641DE1A.8070602@kappacs.com>

Richard Reina wrote:
> Brian,
> 
> Thank you very much for your response.  Would you be able to direct me 
> to where I can get some examples of the syntax for this system call?  I 
> have not had any luck in experimenting with it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Richard
> 
> */Brian Katzung <briank at kappacs.com>/* wrote:
> 
>     If this is for a *NIX-style system, you might want to consider TIOCSTI
>     (simulate typed input) in tty_ioctl(4).
> 
>     Richard Reina wrote:
>      > [...]
>      > Accordingly, if the user accidentally types the wrong first digit of
>      > the number (selection) the user cannot backspace and erase the first
>      > digit of the selection ($char) and retype it, but instead has to
>     start
>      > over. Is there a way to make $char accessible to the user so they
>     can
>      > backspace and erase it if they made a mistake?
>      >
>      > Thanks for considering my quandary.
>      >
>      > Richard

Richard,

Here's a sample program that simulates typed input, waits for the user 
to edit/enter a line, and prints what it gets.

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use strict;

my $sti = "Hello, world";

sub TIOCSTI { 0x5412; }         # From e.g. /usr/include/asm/ioctls.h

foreach my $char (split(//, $sti))
{
         ioctl(STDIN, TIOCSTI, $char);
}
print "Input received: ", scalar(<>);

# END

-- 
Brian Katzung
Kappa Computer Solutions, LLC
www.kappacs.com 877.367.8837 x1


From lembark at wrkhors.com  Wed May  9 08:11:51 2007
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 11:11:51 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Scalar help.
In-Reply-To: <44275.97384.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <44275.97384.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4641E4B7.2000000@wrkhors.com>


> except for one annoying inconvenience.  It deals
> with adding the first number typed for the
> selection in the following way:

Buffer the last state and use keykey of backspace
to restore the buffer.

-- 
Steven Lembark                                         85-09 90th Street
Workhorse Computing                                  Woodhaven, NY 11421
lembark at wrkhors.com                                      +1 888 359 3508

From JJacobus at PonyX.com  Wed May  9 12:13:21 2007
From: JJacobus at PonyX.com (Jim Jacobus)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:13:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20070509140610.038a6f20@SurplusRecord.com>


Is there any way to limit, from within the Perl script, the amount of 
memory or CPU a Perl process utilizes? I've got a script on a Redhat 
Linux system that crunches a lot of data. Script and output are ok, 
but the process can take up to 30 minutes wall clock time. As a 
result the system appears to slow down considerably until the the 
script finishes. I tried adding a few WAIT commands in the script, 
but it didn't help much. The system reads some really large files, 
parses the info and stores it in some hashes for later processing. So 
I'm using I/o, memory and CPU. It would be good if I could lower the 
process priority of the script when it's running so the O/S could 
give more weight to other processes.


From don at drakeconsult.com  Wed May  9 12:17:15 2007
From: don at drakeconsult.com (Don Drake)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:17:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20070509140610.038a6f20@SurplusRecord.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20070509140610.038a6f20@SurplusRecord.com>
Message-ID: <004501c7926e$a748ea60$800101df@dd>

# man nice

-Don

-----Original Message-----
From: chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org
[mailto:chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Jim
Jacobus
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:13 PM
To: chicago-talk at pm.org
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.


Is there any way to limit, from within the Perl script, the amount of 
memory or CPU a Perl process utilizes? I've got a script on a Redhat 
Linux system that crunches a lot of data. Script and output are ok, 
but the process can take up to 30 minutes wall clock time. As a 
result the system appears to slow down considerably until the the 
script finishes. I tried adding a few WAIT commands in the script, 
but it didn't help much. The system reads some really large files, 
parses the info and stores it in some hashes for later processing. So 
I'm using I/o, memory and CPU. It would be good if I could lower the 
process priority of the script when it's running so the O/S could 
give more weight to other processes.

_______________________________________________
Chicago-talk mailing list
Chicago-talk at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk


From tigerpeng2001 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 12:54:44 2007
From: tigerpeng2001 at yahoo.com (tiger peng)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
Message-ID: <110996.19269.qm@web58714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Nice may not be a nice solution. Try if the file can be chopped down to small pieces

----- Original Message ----
From: Don Drake <don at drakeconsult.com>
To: Chicago.pm chatter <chicago-talk at pm.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2007 2:17:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.

# man nice

-Don

-----Original Message-----
From: chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org
[mailto:chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Jim
Jacobus
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:13 PM
To: chicago-talk at pm.org
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.


Is there any way to limit, from within the Perl script, the amount of 
memory or CPU a Perl process utilizes? I've got a script on a Redhat 
Linux system that crunches a lot of data. Script and output are ok, 
but the process can take up to 30 minutes wall clock time. As a 
result the system appears to slow down considerably until the the 
script finishes. I tried adding a few WAIT commands in the script, 
but it didn't help much. The system reads some really large files, 
parses the info and stores it in some hashes for later processing. So 
I'm using I/o, memory and CPU. It would be good if I could lower the 
process priority of the script when it's running so the O/S could 
give more weight to other processes.

_______________________________________________
Chicago-talk mailing list
Chicago-talk at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk

_______________________________________________
Chicago-talk mailing list
Chicago-talk at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk




From tdenkinger at gmail.com  Wed May  9 13:13:03 2007
From: tdenkinger at gmail.com (Troy Denkinger)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:13:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20070509140610.038a6f20@SurplusRecord.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20070509140610.038a6f20@SurplusRecord.com>
Message-ID: <b98e048e0705091313h75743d6dtf7a2ea266469fcf2@mail.gmail.com>

I would suggest profiling the code to see where the slowness is coming
from.  Perhaps you can do some caching or other optimizations to decrease
the sizes of the hashes you're building in memory.  For instances, if you're
building a bunch of hashes serially, consider using Storable to cache each
to disk before beginning the next one.  If you must keep them all in memory
at the same time, then you'd need to try something else.

On 5/9/07, Jim Jacobus <JJacobus at ponyx.com> wrote:
>
>
> Is there any way to limit, from within the Perl script, the amount of
> memory or CPU a Perl process utilizes? I've got a script on a Redhat
> Linux system that crunches a lot of data. Script and output are ok,
> but the process can take up to 30 minutes wall clock time. As a
> result the system appears to slow down considerably until the the
> script finishes. I tried adding a few WAIT commands in the script,
> but it didn't help much. The system reads some really large files,
> parses the info and stores it in some hashes for later processing. So
> I'm using I/o, memory and CPU. It would be good if I could lower the
> process priority of the script when it's running so the O/S could
> give more weight to other processes.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
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From eli at mortgagefolder.com  Wed May  9 13:15:59 2007
From: eli at mortgagefolder.com (Elias Lutfallah)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 15:15:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
In-Reply-To: <110996.19269.qm@web58714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <110996.19269.qm@web58714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46422BFF.6040902@mortgagefolder.com>

Maybe you can store the data to temp files until you actually need to 
use it? That way you're not using as much memory at one time. Just make 
sure to delete the data from the hashes once it's saved.

Not knowing the details of what the data is or how it's being processed, 
I have no idea if this would be a good thing.

tiger peng wrote:
> Nice may not be a nice solution. Try if the file can be chopped down to small pieces
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Don Drake <don at drakeconsult.com>
> To: Chicago.pm chatter <chicago-talk at pm.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2007 2:17:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
>
> # man nice
>
> -Don
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org
> [mailto:chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org] On Behalf Of Jim
> Jacobus
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:13 PM
> To: chicago-talk at pm.org
> Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
>
>
> Is there any way to limit, from within the Perl script, the amount of 
> memory or CPU a Perl process utilizes? I've got a script on a Redhat 
> Linux system that crunches a lot of data. Script and output are ok, 
> but the process can take up to 30 minutes wall clock time. As a 
> result the system appears to slow down considerably until the the 
> script finishes. I tried adding a few WAIT commands in the script, 
> but it didn't help much. The system reads some really large files, 
> parses the info and stores it in some hashes for later processing. So 
> I'm using I/o, memory and CPU. It would be good if I could lower the 
> process priority of the script when it's running so the O/S could 
> give more weight to other processes.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
>
>
>   


From daveviner at pobox.com  Wed May  9 13:15:00 2007
From: daveviner at pobox.com (Dave Viner)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:15:00 -0700
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
In-Reply-To: <110996.19269.qm@web58714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <110996.19269.qm@web58714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F5B307C-B3CF-4467-AE54-2A0409AE3EF8@pobox.com>

How about BSD::Resource?

http://search.cpan.org/~jhi/BSD-Resource-1.28/Resource.pm

another approach would be to process smaller segments of the data at  
a time... maybe process only 10,000 records, output results, erase  
them from memory, repeat until eof().

dave

On May 9, 2007, at 12:54 PM, tiger peng wrote:

> Nice may not be a nice solution. Try if the file can be chopped  
> down to small pieces
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Don Drake <don at drakeconsult.com>
> To: Chicago.pm chatter <chicago-talk at pm.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2007 2:17:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
>
> # man nice
>
> -Don
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org
> [mailto:chicago-talk-bounces+don=drakeconsult.com at pm.org] On Behalf  
> Of Jim
> Jacobus
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:13 PM
> To: chicago-talk at pm.org
> Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
>
>
> Is there any way to limit, from within the Perl script, the amount of
> memory or CPU a Perl process utilizes? I've got a script on a Redhat
> Linux system that crunches a lot of data. Script and output are ok,
> but the process can take up to 30 minutes wall clock time. As a
> result the system appears to slow down considerably until the the
> script finishes. I tried adding a few WAIT commands in the script,
> but it didn't help much. The system reads some really large files,
> parses the info and stores it in some hashes for later processing. So
> I'm using I/o, memory and CPU. It would be good if I could lower the
> process priority of the script when it's running so the O/S could
> give more weight to other processes.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk


From lembark at wrkhors.com  Wed May  9 14:04:54 2007
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:04:54 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
In-Reply-To: <110996.19269.qm@web58714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <110996.19269.qm@web58714.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46423776.8090609@wrkhors.com>


> Nice may not be a nice solution. Try if the file
> can be chopped down to small pieces

Put it another way: nice-ing a memory hog just
guarantees it will hog the memory for the longest
possible time.

Chunking or serializing the data, using intermediate
data files, or pre-sorting the input will usually
help get the bulky work done sooner. For example,
a frequent reason for storing an entire file in
core is to compare rows to one another. In this case
pre-sorting the data may allow for a window of rows
rather than the entire file.

Aside from that, Perl doesn't give you direct
control over core (aside from designing terse
data structures) or CPU since it is a virtual
machine and doesn't control the real memorh or
CPU scheduling.

-- 
Steven Lembark                                         85-09 90th Street
Workhorse Computing                                  Woodhaven, NY 11421
lembark at wrkhors.com                                      +1 888 359 3508

From jon at jrock.us  Wed May  9 19:31:10 2007
From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 21:31:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Limiting system impact.
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20070509140610.038a6f20@SurplusRecord.com>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20070509140610.038a6f20@SurplusRecord.com>
Message-ID: <200705092131.11043.jon@jrock.us>

On Wednesday 09 May 2007 02:13:21 pm Jim Jacobus wrote:
> Is there any way to limit, from within the Perl script, the amount of
> memory or CPU a Perl process utilizes? I've got a script on a Redhat
> Linux system that crunches a lot of data. Script and output are ok,
> but the process can take up to 30 minutes wall clock time. As a
> result the system appears to slow down considerably until the the
> script finishes. I tried adding a few WAIT commands in the script,
> but it didn't help much. The system reads some really large files,
> parses the info and stores it in some hashes for later processing. So
> I'm using I/o, memory and CPU. It would be good if I could lower the
> process priority of the script when it's running so the O/S could
> give more weight to other processes.

Probably a good idea to use a database like BDB or SQLite to store 
intermediate results.  These (especially BDB) will take care of memory 
management (using the disk as a backing store, of course).  If you want the 
final results in a flat file, BDB can do that for you also!

Unless you're using a really old linux, heavy CPU users aren't going to affect 
desktop response (the kernel auto-renices X to -20, in fact).   If you're 
experiencing slowness, you're probably swapping, which will slow things down.  
Get some more memory or reduce it as per above.  If reducing memory usage 
doesn't help, you can nice io with ionice, which might also help.

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
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From richard at rushlogistics.com  Thu May 10 06:40:58 2007
From: richard at rushlogistics.com (Richard Reina)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 06:40:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Scalar help.
In-Reply-To: <4641DE1A.8070602@kappacs.com>
Message-ID: <261490.9939.qm@web605.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Brain,

This worked like a charm.  Thanks so much.  Next time you're in Lincoln Park let me know, I owe you a beer.

Richard



  Richard,

Here's a sample program that simulates typed input, waits for the user 
to edit/enter a line, and prints what it gets.

#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use strict;

my $sti = "Hello, world";

sub TIOCSTI { 0x5412; }         # From e.g. /usr/include/asm/ioctls.h

foreach my $char (split(//, $sti))
{
         ioctl(STDIN, TIOCSTI, $char);
}
print "Input received: ", scalar(<>);

# END

-- 
Brian Katzung
Kappa Computer Solutions, LLC
www.kappacs.com 877.367.8837 x1

_______________________________________________
Chicago-talk mailing list
Chicago-talk at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk



Your beliefs become your thoughts.  Your thoughts become your words.  Your words become your actions.  Your actions become your habits.  Your habits become your values.  Your values become your destiny.  -- Mahatma Gandhi
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From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Mon May 21 20:55:28 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:55:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] St. Louis Hack-a-thon
Message-ID: <49d805d70705212055k13346c37q55931c80a11c41f9@mail.gmail.com>

Anybody heading to St. Louis?

http://www.robotcoffee.com/computerroom/index.php/Main_Page

From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Tue May 22 15:17:44 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:17:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting Tonight
Message-ID: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>

Clyde is not feeling well, so we won't be having the unicode talk
tonight at the meeting; however, there are still some of us meeting up
at Monks at 6:00 pm and at Performics at 7:00 pm.

From andy at petdance.com  Tue May 22 15:21:13 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:21:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>


On May 22, 2007, at 5:17 PM, Joshua McAdams wrote:

> Clyde is not feeling well, so we won't be having the unicode talk
> tonight at the meeting; however, there are still some of us meeting up
> at Monks at 6:00 pm and at Performics at 7:00 pm.

Also, what about the June 26th meeting?  That's smack in the middle  
of YAPC.  Are people at Performics still going to be able to host it?

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance






From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Tue May 22 15:24:08 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:24:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>

> Also, what about the June 26th meeting?  That's smack in the middle
> of YAPC.  Are people at Performics still going to be able to host it?

Pete said that he's probably not going to be at YAPC, so he should be
available.... of course, he'd have to confirm :)

From jon at jrock.us  Wed May 23 18:05:03 2007
From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:05:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>

On Tuesday 22 May 2007 05:24:08 pm Joshua McAdams wrote:
> > Also, what about the June 26th meeting?  That's smack in the middle
> > of YAPC.  Are people at Performics still going to be able to host it?
>
> Pete said that he's probably not going to be at YAPC, so he should be
> available.... of course, he'd have to confirm :)

To follow up on this... we decided that we'll do the chicago meeting on the 
3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or something.

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
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From andy at petdance.com  Wed May 23 18:11:05 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:11:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
Message-ID: <D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>


On May 23, 2007, at 8:05 PM, Jonathan Rockway wrote:

> To follow up on this... we decided that we'll do the chicago  
> meeting on the
> 3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or  
> something.

That's probably not the case.  Hold on.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Wed May 23 18:43:51 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 20:43:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>

> > To follow up on this... we decided that we'll do the chicago
> > meeting on the
> > 3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or
> > something.

It would be nice if we could get the Unicode talk rescheduled for then
too.  Clyde, you up for it?

From andy at petdance.com  Wed May 23 19:12:19 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:12:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>

>>> 3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or
>>> something.
>
> It would be nice if we could get the Unicode talk rescheduled for then
> too.  Clyde, you up for it?

My plan was to have Pete do the Perl Program Repair Shop that I'm  
doing in Wheaton on the 12th.

http://rakudo.org/chicago-pm/index.cgi?perl_program_repair_shop

Which did you want to do?



--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Wed May 23 19:20:22 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:20:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>

My vote is for Clyde to get first dibbs at a talk since he had to miss
his.  There seemed to be quite a few people interested in the Unicode
topic.  As far as Fraggasi or Pete, either is fine.  I think that Mike
wanted to re-do his logging talk to get some more practice in for
YAPC.  Mike, has there been much content added/changed since last
time?

On 5/23/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
> >>> 3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or
> >>> something.
> >
> > It would be nice if we could get the Unicode talk rescheduled for then
> > too.  Clyde, you up for it?
>
> My plan was to have Pete do the Perl Program Repair Shop that I'm
> doing in Wheaton on the 12th.
>
> http://rakudo.org/chicago-pm/index.cgi?perl_program_repair_shop
>
> Which did you want to do?
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>

From andy at petdance.com  Wed May 23 19:24:36 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:24:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>


On May 23, 2007, at 9:20 PM, Joshua McAdams wrote:

> My vote is for Clyde to get first dibbs at a talk since he had to miss
> his.  There seemed to be quite a few people interested in the Unicode
> topic.  As far as Fraggasi or Pete, either is fine.

OK, that's fine.  Please just get me a write-up in the next day or  
two so I can mail to chicago-announce.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From brian.d.foy at gmail.com  Wed May 23 19:58:29 2007
From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:58:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <2715accf0705231958n6b9c496co77de847fdbae2a88@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/23/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
> >>> 3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or
> >>> something.
> >
> > It would be nice if we could get the Unicode talk rescheduled for then
> > too.  Clyde, you up for it?
>
> My plan was to have Pete do the Perl Program Repair Shop that I'm
> doing in Wheaton on the 12th.

Your plan? Do whatever you like in Wheaton, but if you don't come into
the city you don't get to have a plan for it. :)

If Pete wants to talk, I'm sure he can speak up for himself and
express his interest. Otherwise, we made plans for the city fol
already.

-- 
brian d foy <brian.d.foy at gmail.com>
http://www.pair.com/~comdog/

From brian.d.foy at gmail.com  Wed May 23 20:00:16 2007
From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:00:16 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <2715accf0705232000p4e3f788cg14eb3094b16d566d@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/23/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> On May 23, 2007, at 8:05 PM, Jonathan Rockway wrote:
>
> > To follow up on this... we decided that we'll do the chicago
> > meeting on the
> > 3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or
> > something.
>
> That's probably not the case.  Hold on.

Andy, you have as much say as anyone else, so stop acting like you run
the show. In fact, you have less say about what happens to a meeting
you don't participate in. Kindly do what you like in Wheaton, but
leave the city folk alone to do what they like.

-- 
brian d foy <brian.d.foy at gmail.com>
http://www.pair.com/~comdog/

From andy at petdance.com  Wed May 23 20:03:48 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:03:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <2715accf0705232000p4e3f788cg14eb3094b16d566d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232000p4e3f788cg14eb3094b16d566d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AF9155CC-793B-440D-A69B-4D0FF9406A5D@petdance.com>

> Andy, you have as much say as anyone else, so stop acting like you run
> the show. In fact, you have less say about what happens to a meeting
> you don't participate in. Kindly do what you like in Wheaton, but
> leave the city folk alone to do what they like.

I did.  Follow the thread before jumping on me, please.


--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From brian.d.foy at gmail.com  Wed May 23 20:06:52 2007
From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:06:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <AF9155CC-793B-440D-A69B-4D0FF9406A5D@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232000p4e3f788cg14eb3094b16d566d@mail.gmail.com>
	<AF9155CC-793B-440D-A69B-4D0FF9406A5D@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <2715accf0705232006r35a7921es1a764abf7948d101@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/23/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
> > Andy, you have as much say as anyone else, so stop acting like you run
> > the show. In fact, you have less say about what happens to a meeting
> > you don't participate in. Kindly do what you like in Wheaton, but
> > leave the city folk alone to do what they like.
>
> I did.  Follow the thread before jumping on me, please.

I read the entire thread, and I'm still calling bullshit on you.

-- 
brian d foy <brian.d.foy at gmail.com>
http://www.pair.com/~comdog/

From brian.d.foy at gmail.com  Wed May 23 20:09:13 2007
From: brian.d.foy at gmail.com (brian d foy)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:09:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/23/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:

> OK, that's fine.  Please just get me a write-up in the next day or
> two so I can mail to chicago-announce.

People interested in events in the city can also join the Windycity.pm
list: http://windycity.pm.org

There's really no need for the extra step in the process.

-- 
brian d foy <brian.d.foy at gmail.com>
http://www.pair.com/~comdog/

From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 05:01:33 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 07:01:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>

Andy -- since you claim "Chicago PM Leader" title and  was *absent* at
the last meeting, you COULD ask if there were any volunteers or
discussion about the next meeting before stating what you think should
happen.

Most user groups I am in, the group leader actually shows up or in
absence, get a report to see what happened.

In your post to Chicago Ruby group "How to have meetings" :

-------
If you'll allow me to throw in my experiences from organizing Chicago
Perl Mongers for a few years now:

1) You will never have everyone happy about the meetings.  Someone's
going to be out of luck.

2) Pick a day of the month and stick with it, even if people will
miss it, or nobody will be there.  The key is consistency.

3) Have a meeting every month, no matter what.  The key is consistency.

4) Always have a topic/agenda for the meeting, no matter what.  The
key is consistency.

At some point it's going to be an issue of JFDI and making it happen.

----------


You forgot the 5th point

5) Group leader should attend or in absence, find out what happened.







On 5/23/07, brian d foy <brian.d.foy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/23/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> > OK, that's fine.  Please just get me a write-up in the next day or
> > two so I can mail to chicago-announce.
>
> People interested in events in the city can also join the Windycity.pm
> list: http://windycity.pm.org
>
> There's really no need for the extra step in the process.
>
> --
> brian d foy <brian.d.foy at gmail.com>
> http://www.pair.com/~comdog/
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From masque at pobox.com  Thu May 24 07:27:56 2007
From: masque at pobox.com (Paul Blair)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:27:56 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>

On May 24, 2007, at 8:01 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:

> Most user groups I am in, the group leader actually shows up or in
> absence, get a report to see what happened.

Most user groups I'm in, people don't snipe at the leader.  If they  
do, they're ignored - and for wise reason.

Most user groups I'm in, if there's something of import to those in  
the group who were not in attendance, it's sent out via the list or  
minutes.

Most user groups I'm in, comments like "Most user groups I'm in" have  
little relevance.

This thread is tiresome back'n'forthery.  Can we move on to the  
actual content now please?

Thanks,
Paul.

From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 24 07:30:40 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:30:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>


On May 24, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Paul Blair wrote:

> Most user groups I'm in, people don't snipe at the leader.  If they
> do, they're ignored - and for wise reason.

It's not even "leader".  I'm just trying to help get shit done.   
That's all I was trying to do.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From masque at pobox.com  Thu May 24 07:35:19 2007
From: masque at pobox.com (Paul Blair)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:35:19 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>
	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>
	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>

On May 24, 2007, at 10:30 AM, Andy Lester wrote:

> It's not even "leader".  I'm just trying to help get shit done.
> That's all I was trying to do.

Fair point.

Maybe you guys need a secretary, then.  Nola's absolutely right that  
people should be informed of important goings-on, even when they miss  
meetings.

Nola, would you be willing in the future to provide the report that  
you thought Andy should have received?  Seems like a good solution to  
me.

Paul.

From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 07:59:02 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:59:02 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>

perhaps then you should change your website andy

""
I'm also the de facto leader of the Chicago Perl Mongers.

""



On 5/24/07, Paul Blair <masque at pobox.com> wrote:
> On May 24, 2007, at 10:30 AM, Andy Lester wrote:
>
> > It's not even "leader".  I'm just trying to help get shit done.
> > That's all I was trying to do.
>
> Fair point.
>
> Maybe you guys need a secretary, then.  Nola's absolutely right that
> people should be informed of important goings-on, even when they miss
> meetings.
>
> Nola, would you be willing in the future to provide the report that
> you thought Andy should have received?  Seems like a good solution to
> me.
>
> Paul.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From jim at jimandkoka.com  Thu May 24 08:04:21 2007
From: jim at jimandkoka.com (Jim Thomason)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:04:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>

I thought the whole reason that Brian fragmented the groups was so
that he could go off and do his thing and andy could go off and do his
thing, and the rest of us be damned.

So who cares if Andy still claims he's the de facto leader of
Chicago.pm. What does Windy City.pm care?

Can anybody have an arbitrary title? I wanna be listed as the leader
of the covert special ops team, Delta Force.

Didn't know we had one? That's why it's _covert_, people.

-Jim......

On 5/24/07, Nola Stowe <mrnicksgirl at gmail.com> wrote:
> perhaps then you should change your website andy
>
> ""
> I'm also the de facto leader of the Chicago Perl Mongers.
>
> ""
>
>
>
> On 5/24/07, Paul Blair <masque at pobox.com> wrote:
> > On May 24, 2007, at 10:30 AM, Andy Lester wrote:
> >
> > > It's not even "leader".  I'm just trying to help get shit done.
> > > That's all I was trying to do.
> >
> > Fair point.
> >
> > Maybe you guys need a secretary, then.  Nola's absolutely right that
> > people should be informed of important goings-on, even when they miss
> > meetings.
> >
> > Nola, would you be willing in the future to provide the report that
> > you thought Andy should have received?  Seems like a good solution to
> > me.
> >
> > Paul.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago-talk mailing list
> > Chicago-talk at pm.org
> > http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
> >
>
>
> --
> http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
> http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>

From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 08:10:52 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:10:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/24/07, Jim Thomason <jim at jimandkoka.com> wrote:
> So who cares if Andy still claims he's the de facto leader of
> Chicago.pm. What does Windy City.pm care?

then Andy should stop trying to dictate what downtowners do

From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 24 08:12:46 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:12:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13C2C858-B923-4BAC-934E-B508D26F456E@petdance.com>


On May 24, 2007, at 10:10 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:

>> So who cares if Andy still claims he's the de facto leader of
>> Chicago.pm. What does Windy City.pm care?
>
> then Andy should stop trying to dictate what downtowners do

Andy's not trying to dictate anything.  He's really not.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 24 08:15:35 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:15:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E29B5F5C-8C31-494F-B2C6-B11AC02FA0C8@petdance.com>


On May 24, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:

> perhaps then you should change your website andy
>
> ""
> I'm also the de facto leader of the Chicago Perl Mongers.

Would that make you happy, Nola?

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From jim at jimandkoka.com  Thu May 24 08:17:38 2007
From: jim at jimandkoka.com (Jim Thomason)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:17:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70705240817h23cb40ddv639883c0853a514@mail.gmail.com>

> then Andy should stop trying to dictate what downtowners do

Good point. We should all band together, because lord knows if Andy
claims on his page to be a de facto leader then by GOD we must all
listen to him. Clearly, if he leaves it up on his site, then he's
taking license to come into our offices and our HOMES and tell us what
to do. I, for one, won't have Andy hovering over me, wearing his
little dictator hat, demanding I write tests for my code. You know
what? Fuck tests.

This is why I own a gun.

-Jim.....

From hwigoda at mindspring.com  Thu May 24 08:17:40 2007
From: hwigoda at mindspring.com (Hal Wigoda)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:17:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <545008A6-B8B0-4A59-90F9-80A15AF13F8D@mindspring.com>

ouch.


On May 24, 2007, at 10:10 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:

> On 5/24/07, Jim Thomason <jim at jimandkoka.com> wrote:
>> So who cares if Andy still claims he's the de facto leader of
>> Chicago.pm. What does Windy City.pm care?
>
> then Andy should stop trying to dictate what downtowners do
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk


From jim at jimandkoka.com  Thu May 24 08:20:51 2007
From: jim at jimandkoka.com (Jim Thomason)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:20:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <13C2C858-B923-4BAC-934E-B508D26F456E@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
	<13C2C858-B923-4BAC-934E-B508D26F456E@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <5cfdfaf70705240820k49c1d582s9c34c67cf2af4e32@mail.gmail.com>

> Andy's not trying to dictate anything.  He's really not.

See that, people? Andy just marched in here to our list and DECLARED
that he's not trying to dictate anything. No debate, no argument, no
room to question him, oh no. All hail the all might Andy and his
DECREE that he isn't a dictator.

Better not question that! The dictator might get mad! Not that he is
one! I sure wouldn't want to wind up in a gulag!

-Jim....

From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 08:19:10 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:19:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <E29B5F5C-8C31-494F-B2C6-B11AC02FA0C8@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<E29B5F5C-8C31-494F-B2C6-B11AC02FA0C8@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705240819j34743169q8ca03d854cc386e9@mail.gmail.com>

well you if you say you are "leader" .. then say "i'm not the leader"
.. just make up your mind :)


On 5/24/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> On May 24, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:
>
> > perhaps then you should change your website andy
> >
> > ""
> > I'm also the de facto leader of the Chicago Perl Mongers.
>
> Would that make you happy, Nola?
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From masque at pobox.com  Thu May 24 08:23:51 2007
From: masque at pobox.com (Paul Blair)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:23:51 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70705240817h23cb40ddv639883c0853a514@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240817h23cb40ddv639883c0853a514@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB9BF92-6F28-425C-ABD5-CDEA5A999D1E@pobox.com>

On May 24, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Jim Thomason wrote:

> This is why I own a gun.

In CHICAGO!?

From jason at hostedlabs.com  Thu May 24 08:41:15 2007
From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70705240820k49c1d582s9c34c67cf2af4e32@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>	<13C2C858-B923-4BAC-934E-B508D26F456E@petdance.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240820k49c1d582s9c34c67cf2af4e32@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4655B21B.5030502@hostedlabs.com>

I for one welcome our new list overloards.. whoever they may be..


Jim Thomason wrote:
>> Andy's not trying to dictate anything.  He's really not.
> 
> See that, people? Andy just marched in here to our list and DECLARED
> that he's not trying to dictate anything. No debate, no argument, no
> room to question him, oh no. All hail the all might Andy and his
> DECREE that he isn't a dictator.
> 
> Better not question that! The dictator might get mad! Not that he is
> one! I sure wouldn't want to wind up in a gulag!
> 
> -Jim....
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk

From eli at mortgagefolder.com  Thu May 24 08:41:51 2007
From: eli at mortgagefolder.com (Elias Lutfallah)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <CAB9BF92-6F28-425C-ABD5-CDEA5A999D1E@pobox.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>	<5cfdfaf70705240817h23cb40ddv639883c0853a514@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB9BF92-6F28-425C-ABD5-CDEA5A999D1E@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <4655B23F.5010003@mortgagefolder.com>

Paul Blair wrote:
> On May 24, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Jim Thomason wrote:
>
>   
>> This is why I own a gun.
>>     
>
> In CHICAGO!?
Hey, it's only illegal if you get caught.

From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 24 08:41:45 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:41:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] June 12, Perl Program Repair Shop
Message-ID: <7650ABDB-29CF-4B84-8DE0-EB83C9200C26@petdance.com>

Perl Program Repair Shop

Illinois Institute of Technology, Rice Campus, Wheaton, IL
Tuesday, June 12th, 2007 (7:00 PM - 9:00 PM)

Mark-Jason Dominus visited Chicago.PM back in 2006, and his "Red  
Flags and Program Repair Shop" talk was wonderful. http:// 
perl.plover.com/flagbook/yak/Chi/slide001.html

In June, Chicago Perl Mongers will be doing the same thing, albeit  
without Mark's help. We'll take real code from users and find ways to  
improve it.  I (Andy) will take the code and find what I suggest as  
ways to improve it, and present those at the meeting.  As a group, we  
can also discuss other ways that things could be improved.

If you'd like to submit code you've written for public scrutiny and  
improvement, email it to andy at petdance.com, the larger the better.  
Andy will pull out likely candidates for scrutiny and we'll discuss  
them as a group at the meeting.

I need your code submissions by June 5th, so please get them in now,  
before it's too late.

Thanks!
Andy



--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 08:19:10 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:19:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <E29B5F5C-8C31-494F-B2C6-B11AC02FA0C8@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<E29B5F5C-8C31-494F-B2C6-B11AC02FA0C8@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705240819j34743169q8ca03d854cc386e9@mail.gmail.com>

well you if you say you are "leader" .. then say "i'm not the leader"
.. just make up your mind :)


On 5/24/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> On May 24, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:
>
> > perhaps then you should change your website andy
> >
> > ""
> > I'm also the de facto leader of the Chicago Perl Mongers.
>
> Would that make you happy, Nola?
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From eli at mortgagefolder.com  Thu May 24 08:44:31 2007
From: eli at mortgagefolder.com (Elias Lutfallah)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:44:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>	<432EADA7-A6CF-46CA-B837-BB902BD78C57@petdance.com>	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>

Jim Thomason wrote:
> Can anybody have an arbitrary title? I wanna be listed as the leader
> of the covert special ops team, Delta Force.
>
> Didn't know we had one? That's why it's _covert_, people.
>
> -Jim......
>   
That's it. You're on double secret probation.


From mongers at bsod.net  Thu May 24 08:46:52 2007
From: mongers at bsod.net (Pete Krawczyk)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:46:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Containable examples
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0705241028050.3124@steward.bsod.net>

What is an example of a small, easily explained and containable project?

This morning, I came in early to work to give a presentation on 
test-driven development to some people who weren't American.  The project 
we developed was a Perl module that keeps track of a game of bowling and
reports the score at the end.

This is a great, small, containable project, I thought.

The problem lies when you're crossing cultural, language and physical 
borders.  Bowling might be something almost everyone here has done, but in 
other parts of the world, they can have different rules, if they bowl at 
all.  Part of my presentation was thus spent explaining all the rules of 
American Tenpin bowling, so that we could all work off the same ruleset.
Believe it or not, bowling isn't the easiest sport to explain over a 
phone.

After we were done, I talked to a person who orignally worked with the 
team I was training.  He told me while they had bowled at one point, it 
wasn't something really familiar to them.  If I could have had a module 
based on cricket, or soccer, or something else, we might have been able to 
avoid a lot of time spent explaining backstory before getting into the 
actual examples.

This made me further think that some examples like this would be helpful 
for people looking to write tutorials at PM meetings and conferences.

Assuming the following:

    * No knowledge of program domain (e.g., non-bowlers) at start
    * All rules and back-knowledge must be quickly explainable
    * Project must do demonstrable work within a very short time
    * Project should be able to scale to complex examples

what are some examples of projects that could be used for examples?

To get started, I'll give an example of what I'm looking for:  Write a 
module which, given two poker hands, reports which is higher (a la cmp). 
All the domain knowledge you need is what a deck of cards is, the 
different types of hands, the relative rank of hands, and the rules for 
breaking ties.

Ideas for things that aren't games would be greatly appreciated, too.

-Pete K
-- 
Pete Krawczyk
     Chicago Perl Mongers
     mongers at bsod dot net

From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 08:48:49 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:48:49 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <4655B23F.5010003@mortgagefolder.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240817h23cb40ddv639883c0853a514@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB9BF92-6F28-425C-ABD5-CDEA5A999D1E@pobox.com>
	<4655B23F.5010003@mortgagefolder.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705240848w2c2c2b8fta40dd18acfe3d78f@mail.gmail.com>

And you all wonder why I live in Bradley ... where I can legally own
my 45 glock :)

On 5/24/07, Elias Lutfallah <eli at mortgagefolder.com> wrote:
> Paul Blair wrote:
> > On May 24, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Jim Thomason wrote:
> >
> >
> >> This is why I own a gun.
> >>
> >
> > In CHICAGO!?
> Hey, it's only illegal if you get caught.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From masque at pobox.com  Thu May 24 09:20:23 2007
From: masque at pobox.com (Paul Blair)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:20:23 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705240848w2c2c2b8fta40dd18acfe3d78f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240804k3cf3e0efq7e1f96574154b353@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240810w34c0bbbay1205aef510d5a25c@mail.gmail.com>
	<5cfdfaf70705240817h23cb40ddv639883c0853a514@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB9BF92-6F28-425C-ABD5-CDEA5A999D1E@pobox.com>
	<4655B23F.5010003@mortgagefolder.com>
	<43e95380705240848w2c2c2b8fta40dd18acfe3d78f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D1575AF-3A67-4BA7-9BE4-3AE5C44988A3@pobox.com>

On May 24, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:

> And you all wonder why I live in Bradley ... where I can legally  
> own my 45 glock :)

Yeah.  As long as it never leaves the house...


From ccf3 at mindspring.com  Thu May 24 09:29:24 2007
From: ccf3 at mindspring.com (Clyde Forrester)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:29:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>	<956F840E-10CE-47E1-B64B-F62F0CEA1F8A@petdance.com>	<49d805d70705221524j58e46350n655b62c6123b24de@mail.gmail.com>	<200705232005.10246.jon@jrock.us>	<D10E20B1-E69C-41E2-87CE-9B06A48DE51E@petdance.com>
	<49d805d70705231843n19cc0e64nf1557a31b68f9f12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4655BD64.4020802@mindspring.com>

Joshua McAdams wrote:

>>>To follow up on this... we decided that we'll do the chicago
>>>meeting on the
>>>3rd tuesday instead.  Frag will be speaking about logging or
>>>something.
>>>
>
>It would be nice if we could get the Unicode talk rescheduled for then
>too.  Clyde, you up for it?
>
The 3rd tuesday would be a conflict for me. Sorry.

Clyde


From Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov  Thu May 24 10:12:12 2007
From: Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov (Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:12:12 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
Message-ID: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>

> That's it. You're on double secret probation.

You're not supposed to tell them ... now you're on DS probation ... oops!

a

p.s. and to think this used to be such a nice, friendly list.  Is it 
particularly hot down there today?

Andy Bach
Systems Mangler
Internet: andy_bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov
VOICE: (608) 261-5738  FAX 264-5932

The competent programmer is fully aware of the strictly limited size of
his own skull; therefore he approaches the programming task in full
humility, and among other things he avoids clever tricks like the
plague. -- Edsger Dijkstra

From mgs at customvisuals.com  Thu May 24 10:21:45 2007
From: mgs at customvisuals.com (Mike Schienle)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:21:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.usc
	ourts.gov>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
Message-ID: <17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>


On Thu, May 24, 2007 12:12 pm, Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov wrote:
>> That's it. You're on double secret probation.
>
> You're not supposed to tell them ... now you're on DS probation ... oops!
>
> a
>
> p.s. and to think this used to be such a nice, friendly list.  Is it
> particularly hot down there today?

The temp isn't too bad here. I think it was just one of those days where you
need to grab a bag of popcorn, put your feet up on the desk and scroll through
the carnage.

Mike Schienle


From kent at c2group.net  Thu May 24 10:33:28 2007
From: kent at c2group.net (Kent Cowgill)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:33:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
References: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
Message-ID: <4A344194-B2F1-4DDC-9648-0C51423A7BB3@c2group.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On May 24, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov wrote:
> Is it
> particularly hot down there today?

I find it uncomfortably warm outside. :/


- -Kent Cowgill

C2 Group, Inc.                                             
kent at c2group.net
http://www.c2group.net                                         
312.804.0160
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin)

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=fPUR
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From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 10:57:34 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:57:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <4A344194-B2F1-4DDC-9648-0C51423A7BB3@c2group.net>
References: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<4A344194-B2F1-4DDC-9648-0C51423A7BB3@c2group.net>
Message-ID: <43e95380705241057q33f4af23vf86d4cb9f357f31f@mail.gmail.com>

haha.. well.. this whole thing is kinda funny actually.

I guess such is the way of a usergroup lead by volunteers.



On 5/24/07, Kent Cowgill <kent at c2group.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On May 24, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov wrote:
> > Is it
> > particularly hot down there today?
>
> I find it uncomfortably warm outside. :/
>
>
> - -Kent Cowgill
>
> C2 Group, Inc.
> kent at c2group.net
> http://www.c2group.net
> 312.804.0160
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin)
>
> iD8DBQFGVcxoRiDfSpIkEfoRAiLYAJ9w9QpuSPddmkFGnz8ISdCt/PVCfwCfQnks
> j9UYxkM1D7tspDZbeFILew0=
> =fPUR
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 24 11:09:41 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:09:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705241057q33f4af23vf86d4cb9f357f31f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<4A344194-B2F1-4DDC-9648-0C51423A7BB3@c2group.net>
	<43e95380705241057q33f4af23vf86d4cb9f357f31f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1D0934D7-4938-42E5-9514-FC82AC307B5F@petdance.com>


On May 24, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Nola Stowe wrote:

> haha.. well.. this whole thing is kinda funny actually.

Not to those who are ridiculed, flamed, and called liars for trying  
to help the group.

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From lembark at wrkhors.com  Thu May 24 11:16:04 2007
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:16:04 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] June 12, Perl Program Repair Shop
In-Reply-To: <7650ABDB-29CF-4B84-8DE0-EB83C9200C26@petdance.com>
References: <7650ABDB-29CF-4B84-8DE0-EB83C9200C26@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <4655D664.3050903@wrkhors.com>


> If you'd like to submit code you've written for public scrutiny and
> improvement, email it to andy at petdance.com, the larger the better.
> Andy will pull out likely candidates for scrutiny and we'll discuss
> them as a group at the meeting.

Feel free to butcher... er, review any of my code
on CPAN.

-- 
Steven Lembark                                         85-09 90th Street
Workhorse Computing                                  Woodhaven, NY 11421
lembark at wrkhors.com                                      +1 888 359 3508

From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 24 11:24:04 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:24:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] June 12, Perl Program Repair Shop
In-Reply-To: <4655D664.3050903@wrkhors.com>
References: <7650ABDB-29CF-4B84-8DE0-EB83C9200C26@petdance.com>
	<4655D664.3050903@wrkhors.com>
Message-ID: <5020A180-D2AB-4EDB-B923-04DFEBD200C0@petdance.com>


On May 24, 2007, at 1:16 PM, Steven Lembark wrote:

> Feel free to butcher... er, review any of my code
> on CPAN.

Oh, if I just wanted any amount of crap, I'm sure I could get some.   
I'm looking for some that people actually care about and, preferably,  
the author will be there to help share his/her story behind the code.

Thanks,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From lembark at wrkhors.com  Thu May 24 11:23:33 2007
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:23:33 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Containable examples
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0705241028050.3124@steward.bsod.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0705241028050.3124@steward.bsod.net>
Message-ID: <4655D825.7070206@wrkhors.com>


> What is an example of a small, easily explained and containable project?

Every society today that has computers has some
form of gambeling. How about keeping track of
net winnings? The game of chance can be generic,
all you need to do is keep track of starting
cash, what is wagerd (negative offset), and won
(positive offset) with a halt-on-zero.

Estimating maximum miles to travel for a car with
roughly consistent MPG (k/l). Given the amount of
gas put into the tank, miles traveled, how likely
is the car to run out of gas before the next rest
stop? The program knows how full the tank is at
the start, the maximum tank value, MPG rating of
the automobile, and a fudge factor for safety. The
program tracks miles traveled (negative offset
factored by MPG), gasoline added (positive offset),
and how many miles are available ( remaining tank
* MPG * ( 1 - fudge factor)).



-- 
Steven Lembark                                         85-09 90th Street
Workhorse Computing                                  Woodhaven, NY 11421
lembark at wrkhors.com                                      +1 888 359 3508

From shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com  Thu May 24 11:27:26 2007
From: shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com (Shawn Carroll)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:27:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <1D0934D7-4938-42E5-9514-FC82AC307B5F@petdance.com>
References: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<4A344194-B2F1-4DDC-9648-0C51423A7BB3@c2group.net>
	<43e95380705241057q33f4af23vf86d4cb9f357f31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1D0934D7-4938-42E5-9514-FC82AC307B5F@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <c114984c0705241127v310f1ed4n4db852074c463d55@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, I find this funny.  Andy is attempting to run things, Brian is
being blunt and confrontational, and the peanut gallery is throwing in
jabs left and right.

Back to the topic at hand

June 28th in Chicago Frag talking about onething
June 12th in Weaton Andy fixing broken ass code

Sometime to reschedule Clyde?

-- 
shawn.c.carroll at gmail.com
Perl Programmer
Soccer Referee


On 5/24/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> On May 24, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Nola Stowe wrote:
>
> > haha.. well.. this whole thing is kinda funny actually.
>
> Not to those who are ridiculed, flamed, and called liars for trying
> to help the group.
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>

From lembark at wrkhors.com  Thu May 24 11:26:01 2007
From: lembark at wrkhors.com (Steven Lembark)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:26:01 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] June 12, Perl Program Repair Shop
In-Reply-To: <5020A180-D2AB-4EDB-B923-04DFEBD200C0@petdance.com>
References: <7650ABDB-29CF-4B84-8DE0-EB83C9200C26@petdance.com>	<4655D664.3050903@wrkhors.com>
	<5020A180-D2AB-4EDB-B923-04DFEBD200C0@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <4655D8B9.80600@wrkhors.com>


> Oh, if I just wanted any amount of crap, I'm sure I could get some.
> I'm looking for some that people actually care about and, preferably,
> the author will be there to help share his/her story behind the code.

FindBin::libs, Object::Trampoline, Parallel::Depend,
Sub::ForceEval are reasonably well documented and
have comments in the code describing why it was done
that way. Parallel::Depend has enough issues to deal
with that there are probably some decent places to
clean it up.

-- 
Steven Lembark                                         85-09 90th Street
Workhorse Computing                                  Woodhaven, NY 11421
lembark at wrkhors.com                                      +1 888 359 3508

From tom at yarrish.com  Thu May 24 11:56:09 2007
From: tom at yarrish.com (Tom Yarrish)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:56:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
Message-ID: <50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


On May 24, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Mike Schienle wrote:

>
> On Thu, May 24, 2007 12:12 pm, Andy_Bach at wiwb.uscourts.gov wrote:
>>> That's it. You're on double secret probation.
>>
>> You're not supposed to tell them ... now you're on DS  
>> probation ... oops!
>>
>> a
>>
>> p.s. and to think this used to be such a nice, friendly list.  Is it
>> particularly hot down there today?
>
> The temp isn't too bad here. I think it was just one of those days  
> where you
> need to grab a bag of popcorn, put your feet up on the desk and  
> scroll through
> the carnage.
>
> Mike Schienle
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk


So back to the topic at hand, are we moving the meeting downtown back  
a week or no?  I need to prep the wife for it since I'll be just  
coming back from a business trip the Saturday before.

Thanks,
Tom
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=wRt4
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From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 12:03:45 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:03:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <1D0934D7-4938-42E5-9514-FC82AC307B5F@petdance.com>
References: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<4A344194-B2F1-4DDC-9648-0C51423A7BB3@c2group.net>
	<43e95380705241057q33f4af23vf86d4cb9f357f31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1D0934D7-4938-42E5-9514-FC82AC307B5F@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705241203v51ed0f7bo22ccd99798f261c7@mail.gmail.com>

well your site says you are you are the defacto leader, then say you
are not? then what is that? help me out here.  I am just saying maybe
you could ask the group if they have suggestions, rather then say
"next meeting will be such and such" ...  I'm sorry if i was
accusatory.

Windycity was formed mainly for announcements for downtown events.. so
I didn't have to pester the list about lunch announcements for lunch.
I know there are more than just Chicago people on this list and I
always felt bad about pestering the whole list for just a small
gathering at lunch.




On 5/24/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> On May 24, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Nola Stowe wrote:
>
> > haha.. well.. this whole thing is kinda funny actually.
>
> Not to those who are ridiculed, flamed, and called liars for trying
> to help the group.
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From masque at pobox.com  Thu May 24 12:31:34 2007
From: masque at pobox.com (Paul Blair)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:31:34 -0400
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <43e95380705241203v51ed0f7bo22ccd99798f261c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<4A344194-B2F1-4DDC-9648-0C51423A7BB3@c2group.net>
	<43e95380705241057q33f4af23vf86d4cb9f357f31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1D0934D7-4938-42E5-9514-FC82AC307B5F@petdance.com>
	<43e95380705241203v51ed0f7bo22ccd99798f261c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B015FABF-C099-438F-8C2A-776D1372E4B3@pobox.com>

On May 24, 2007, at 3:03 PM, Nola Stowe wrote:

> I know there are more than just Chicago people on this list and I
> always felt bad about pestering the whole list for just a small
> gathering at lunch.

...but the rest of this thread, THAT was worth pestering people about.

Not sure you're double-checking your logic here.  ;)

Paul.

From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Thu May 24 12:49:30 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 14:49:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
Message-ID: <49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>

> So back to the topic at hand, are we moving the meeting downtown back
> a week or no?  I need to prep the wife for it since I'll be just
> coming back from a business trip the Saturday before.

Since YAPC::NA collides with the next downtown meeting, there seemed
to be a general consensus that we bump up the June meeting by a week.
Part of this is because half a dozen or so of us will be in Houston
and part because Mike Fraggasi wanted to take one more shot at his
talk.  I'm still for having the meeting a week early, but will gladly
concede.  Pete should be around Chicago during YAPC, so he can handle
getting people into PFX for the meeting if he wants.  If Pete wants to
give the code quality talk also, that suits me.  It looks like our
options are currently:

3rd Week in June
  - Mike Fraggasi on Logging
  - Pete Krawczyk on Coding Red Flags (if he wants to and can)
  - Not Clyde Forrester on Unicode because of a scheduling conflict

4th Week in June (regular meeting)
  - Pete Krawczyk on Coding Red Flags (if he wants to and can)
  - Possibly Clyde Forrester on Unicode

If Clyde and Pete can say which dates work for them, we can see which
date works out best for the group.

Josh
(one the guys who can get you in the building)

From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 08:19:10 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 10:19:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <E29B5F5C-8C31-494F-B2C6-B11AC02FA0C8@petdance.com>
References: <49d805d70705221517r121d034am945cb9c130a339b5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49d805d70705231920r45ac47et608d4683e4de6d0c@mail.gmail.com>
	<DA87A15D-5D91-4DEA-8044-77D01A4F3ABA@petdance.com>
	<2715accf0705232009s5b905e4cr5692afa89046383c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e95380705240501wdde03f4ua99969132bc16dca@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE0176FA-FE7E-45AA-B8A3-A76DEBC28394@pobox.com>
	<5A59E1A9-179B-489C-B1A4-0E65275BE40E@petdance.com>
	<B59A38DE-F7C8-48C1-B4AD-4E96BE398488@pobox.com>
	<43e95380705240759y72bd1ed0j5e86632d989cb9a3@mail.gmail.com>
	<E29B5F5C-8C31-494F-B2C6-B11AC02FA0C8@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705240819j34743169q8ca03d854cc386e9@mail.gmail.com>

well you if you say you are "leader" .. then say "i'm not the leader"
.. just make up your mind :)


On 5/24/07, Andy Lester <andy at petdance.com> wrote:
>
> On May 24, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Nola Stowe wrote:
>
> > perhaps then you should change your website andy
> >
> > ""
> > I'm also the de facto leader of the Chicago Perl Mongers.
>
> Would that make you happy, Nola?
>
> --
> Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From zrusilla at mac.com  Thu May 24 16:35:55 2007
From: zrusilla at mac.com (zrusilla at mac.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:35:55 -0700
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D18C10B3-221F-4C4F-B33A-EED0CE9B2704@mac.com>

You guys didn't take it to the streets, did you? There are two major  
blazes underway in Chicago, according to the Trib.

From mrnicksgirl at gmail.com  Thu May 24 19:43:14 2007
From: mrnicksgirl at gmail.com (Nola Stowe)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 21:43:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <D18C10B3-221F-4C4F-B33A-EED0CE9B2704@mac.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<D18C10B3-221F-4C4F-B33A-EED0CE9B2704@mac.com>
Message-ID: <43e95380705241943u6ede019u1fc42288fb53f2d9@mail.gmail.com>

haha... since guns got brought up somewhere, I think you should have
been worried if you heard of a gun battle in chicago..



On 5/24/07, zrusilla at mac.com <zrusilla at mac.com> wrote:
> You guys didn't take it to the streets, did you? There are two major
> blazes underway in Chicago, according to the Trib.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago-talk mailing list
> Chicago-talk at pm.org
> http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago-talk
>


-- 
http://rubygeek.com - my blog featuring: Ruby, PHP and Perl
http://DevChix.com - boys can't have all the fun

From eli at mortgagefolder.com  Fri May 25 00:40:06 2007
From: eli at mortgagefolder.com (Elias Lutfallah)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 02:40:06 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June - Vote
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <465692D6.6070208@mortgagefolder.com>

Joshua McAdams wrote:
> 3rd Week in June
>   - Mike Fraggasi on Logging
>   - Pete Krawczyk on Coding Red Flags (if he wants to and can)
>   - Not Clyde Forrester on Unicode because of a scheduling conflict
>
> 4th Week in June (regular meeting)
>   - Pete Krawczyk on Coding Red Flags (if he wants to and can)
>   - Possibly Clyde Forrester on Unicode
>
> If Clyde and Pete can say which dates work for them, we can see which
> date works out best for the group.
>
>   
Personally, I'd prefer the regular meeting. Why don't we all stop 
slinging jabs and vote on the wiki?

From frag at ripco.com  Fri May 25 13:48:39 2007
From: frag at ripco.com (Mike Fragassi)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 15:48:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.61.0705251530110.20803@shell3>


My talk will have some major content changes, and I would *really* like 
to get some feedback on it, not to mention the practice.  This doesn't 
have to replace the regular meeting, though; if I can just get a handful 
of people to be there on the 3rd Tuesday (or some other day before YAPC) 
I'm fine with that, and all the non-YAPC-goers can have the 
regularly-scheduled meeting on the 4th Tuesday.

If we do that though, I'd like to humbly yet selfishly request that 
Clyde give his talk in July.  My encoding fu is weak.

-- Mike F.

On Thu, 24 May 2007, Joshua McAdams wrote:

> Since YAPC::NA collides with the next downtown meeting, there seemed
> to be a general consensus that we bump up the June meeting by a week.
> Part of this is because half a dozen or so of us will be in Houston
> and part because Mike Fraggasi wanted to take one more shot at his
> talk.  I'm still for having the meeting a week early, but will gladly
> concede.  Pete should be around Chicago during YAPC, so he can handle
> getting people into PFX for the meeting if he wants.  If Pete wants to
> give the code quality talk also, that suits me.  It looks like our
> options are currently:
>
> 3rd Week in June
>  - Mike Fraggasi on Logging
>  - Pete Krawczyk on Coding Red Flags (if he wants to and can)
>  - Not Clyde Forrester on Unicode because of a scheduling conflict
>
> 4th Week in June (regular meeting)
>  - Pete Krawczyk on Coding Red Flags (if he wants to and can)
>  - Possibly Clyde Forrester on Unicode
>
> If Clyde and Pete can say which dates work for them, we can see which
> date works out best for the group.
>
> Josh
> (one the guys who can get you in the building)

From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Fri May 25 15:13:49 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 17:13:49 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June - Vote
In-Reply-To: <465692D6.6070208@mortgagefolder.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<465692D6.6070208@mortgagefolder.com>
Message-ID: <49d805d70705251513r295d1343qeae07aa19b22425a@mail.gmail.com>

> > If Clyde and Pete can say which dates work for them, we can see which
> > date works out best for the group.
> >
> >
> Personally, I'd prefer the regular meeting. Why don't we all stop
> slinging jabs and vote on the wiki?

/me sneaks a right jab in on eli

Seriously though, I'll find my login and wiki this up over the
weekend.  The only catch is that Pete is somewhere in Canada fishing
until next weekend, so we won't know for sure if he'll be available
and willing to speak and host (if it's still going to be at
performics) the regular meeting for a while.

From mongers at bsod.net  Fri May 25 18:24:46 2007
From: mongers at bsod.net (Pete Krawczyk)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:24:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June - Vote
In-Reply-To: <49d805d70705251513r295d1343qeae07aa19b22425a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<465692D6.6070208@mortgagefolder.com>
	<49d805d70705251513r295d1343qeae07aa19b22425a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0705252024010.3124@steward.bsod.net>

Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June - Vote
From: Joshua McAdams <joshua.mcadams at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 17:13:49 -0500

}The only catch is that Pete is somewhere in Canada fishing
}until next weekend, so we won't know for sure if he'll be available
}and willing to speak and host (if it's still going to be at
}performics) the regular meeting for a while.

I will be available either weekend and willing to host and talk.

(I do have brief, occasional access to email.)

-Pete K
-- 
Pete Krawczyk
    Chicago Perl Mongers
    mongers at bsod dot net

From mongers at bsod.net  Fri May 25 19:20:46 2007
From: mongers at bsod.net (Pete Krawczyk)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 21:20:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June - Vote
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0705252024010.3124@steward.bsod.net>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<465692D6.6070208@mortgagefolder.com>
	<49d805d70705251513r295d1343qeae07aa19b22425a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0705252024010.3124@steward.bsod.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0705252120150.3124@steward.bsod.net>

Subject: Re: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June - Vote
From: Pete Krawczyk <mongers at bsod.net>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 20:24:46 -0500 (CDT)

}I will be available either weekend and willing to host and talk.

s/weekend/day/

In my defense, I've been up since 2:45 this morning.

-Pete K
-- 
Pete Krawczyk
    Chicago Perl Mongers
    mongers at bsod dot net

From ccf3 at mindspring.com  Fri May 25 20:30:22 2007
From: ccf3 at mindspring.com (Clyde Forrester)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 22:30:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.61.0705251530110.20803@shell3>
Message-ID: <4657A9CE.9070100@mindspring.com>

Mike Fragassi wrote:

>My talk will have some major content changes, and I would *really* like 
>to get some feedback on it, not to mention the practice.  This doesn't 
>have to replace the regular meeting, though; if I can just get a handful 
>of people to be there on the 3rd Tuesday (or some other day before YAPC) 
>I'm fine with that, and all the non-YAPC-goers can have the 
>regularly-scheduled meeting on the 4th Tuesday.
>
>If we do that though, I'd like to humbly yet selfishly request that 
>Clyde give his talk in July.  My encoding fu is weak.
>
>-- Mike F.
>
I'm totally OK with that.
In fact, I was hoping to wait until July.

Clyde


From chicago.pm at galumph.com  Fri May 25 22:33:54 2007
From: chicago.pm at galumph.com (Elliot Shank)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 00:33:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <4657A9CE.9070100@mindspring.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.61.0705251530110.20803@shell3>
	<4657A9CE.9070100@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4657C6C2.6090804@galumph.com>

Clyde Forrester wrote:
> Mike Fragassi wrote:
>> If we do that though, I'd like to humbly yet selfishly request that 
>> Clyde give his talk in July.  My encoding fu is weak.
>
> I'm totally OK with that.
> In fact, I was hoping to wait until July.

And the fourth Tuesday in July is... during OSCON.  :/

-- 
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

  -- Benjamin Franklin,
     "An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government
     of Pennsylvania"

From joshua.mcadams at gmail.com  Sat May 26 07:47:34 2007
From: joshua.mcadams at gmail.com (Joshua McAdams)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 09:47:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Meeting in June
In-Reply-To: <4657C6C2.6090804@galumph.com>
References: <4655B2DE.5000202@mortgagefolder.com>
	<OF707E7C93.7E812460-ON862572E5.005E62BD-862572E5.005E74EC@uscmail.uscourts.gov>
	<17590.64.22.160.1.1180027305.squirrel@www.customvisuals.com>
	<50EE7662-3752-4BB7-8F36-CA8447D010F1@yarrish.com>
	<49d805d70705241249i39b19ea5s7ea02ed7b791cfd@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.61.0705251530110.20803@shell3>
	<4657A9CE.9070100@mindspring.com> <4657C6C2.6090804@galumph.com>
Message-ID: <49d805d70705260747q72d03efco70267000b8d310a0@mail.gmail.com>

> And the fourth Tuesday in July is... during OSCON.  :/

Doh!  I think that Pete and I will both be at OSCON, so if you guys
are planning on meeting up at Performics, we'll have to find someone
else to let you all in.... Nola?  Or, we (you really... I'll be at
OSCON) want to try another venue, July might be a good time.

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Wed May 30 11:30:30 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:30:30 +0300
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Introducing Myself
Message-ID: <200705302130.31241.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

Hi all!

First of all, the purpose of this email is two-fold:

1. A Netiquette question: what topics are considered on-topic for fresh
discussions, and what aren't? 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously a Perl technical question is on-topic
and so are activities discussions. But are philosophical, advocacy, etc.
questions on-topic? Is comparing Perl to Python/Lisp/Intercal/C/Assembler 
on-topic? Are links to jokes about Perl on-topic? (Excluding xkcd.com of
course, which everyone and his sister-in-law reads.) 

Are discussions about related computing topics such as UNIX, email servers,
editors, etc. on-topic? Etc.

I'm asking because I already got burned twice in London.pm where I discovered
that their everything-is-on-topic policy is actually 
"everything-is-on-topic-except-some-things-that-aren't". They used to discuss
Buffy a lot, but frowned upon me London.pm-ing a Star Trek episode I started
writing (even thought it had some Buffyism). Then I posted an email with some
Perl jokes I generated and collected, and was banned from the mailing list.
Maybe it was annoying, but it was amusing, and was certainly on-topic. So I'd
like to make it clear.

On the Freenode IRC channel, most channels (including #perl) have a 
"off-topic-is-on-topic" policy, and even accept fresh discussions, although
some things are still considered bad form, or trolling. I'm not sure this
policy can really work for Email, unless it's a dedicated off-topic or
chat mailing list.

2. Introducing Myself:
----------------------

I'll try to be as brief as possible.

My name is Shlomi Fish, and my personal web site is 
http://www.shlomifish.org/ . I've been seriously working with Perl and UNIX
since 1996, when I got a work as a web programmer for one of Israel's first
web-design companies. Back then Perl was the only sane choice for writing
web apps on UNIX, which was the only sane operating system to use. And it was
what I was told to use. After learning Perl and UNIX, I realised that I 
found the holy grails of programming languages and operating systems
respectively. Before that I knew that DOS and Windows were bad, but did not 
know
why. When I used UNIX I found something that was actually good, and behaved 
well.

I'm still actively using Perl and enjoying it, as I still couldn't find a
better alternative and one that "just works". 

Throughout the years, I've worked on a lot of FOSS code, either for projects 
that I've initiated on my own, or that I contributed to projects of other
people. Most of my production code was written in Perl (probably the most of 
the Turing-complete code I wrote), C and C++, various XML based grammars and 
Website Meta Language, Bash, and Python. As much as I like learning other
languages and have learnt Scheme, Haskell, Lambda Calculus, Common Lisp, 
Smalltalk (the Squeak GUI scared me away though), etc. and found them
enlightening, I don't find them suitable for writing real-life code with,
for various reasons, but would recommend learning them, though, anyway.

Some links to the software I created can be found at:

http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/

Including my now over 40 CPAN distributions:

http://search.cpan.org/~shlomif/

---------------

Aside from all that I've been an essayist 
( http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/ ) and a blogger. Some of the more 
critical articles I wrote about what I perceived as unfortunate trends in the 
Perl world, and my general tendency towards tactlessness got me a somewhat 
bad reputation. This prompted me to keep introducing myself as the Perl Black 
Sheep to people who don't know me.

I probably gained some enemies, but most of the people of importance (who
I care for their opinion, and are not foolish enough to hold a lot of 
prejudice
about me) still respect me enough to co-operate with me on codebase, or to
recognise when I'm saying something of value. I suppose as far as Perl was
concerned I was off to a bad start, but I suppose having a somewhat tarnished
reputation is better than having none at all.

Plus, I'm not optimising for being loved. If saying my well-thought opinion
means receiving some criticism or even getting into online "trouble", then
so be it. Socrates got killed for speaking his opinion, and while I'll 
probably
am cautious enough not to, everyone agree that Socrates was incredibly smart,
and that he was killed for saying the wrong things for his time.

----------------------------------------

What I hate:
------------

1. Prejudice. People who think Perl is not useful because it's 
ugly/unmaintainable/too-big-to-fit-into-one's-head/yesterday's news etc. 
People
who think Mandriva (which I'm using to write this letter) is not a good
distribution because it's RPM-based and/or not as "cool" as Ubuntu. People
who think Linux does not have a decent GUI or is hard to use.[1] In short,
people who have prejudice, and "feel" instead of "knowing" or understanding.

An extreme form of prejudice is labelling - "Linux is stupid" (WDYM by 
"stupid"), "Perl is ugly" (what is ugly and why is it bad), instead of the 
more
subjective-inducing "I dislike Perl" or "I could never get used to Linux."

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
[1] - I've known a Linux guru who installed Windows and Outlook for his
mother, because he believed Linux and Thunderbird were too hard to use. On the 
other hand, there's this evidence to the contrary:

http://mirror.hamakor.org.il/archives/linux-il/05-2005/15319.html
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


2. Irrationality. Some people simply refuse to listen to reason and 
experience.
I've recently ran into a Neo-Socialist on IRC who wondered why I asked him if 
he were indeed such, because on his homesite-qua-blog he had the word 
"interests" linked to "Socialism". I told him he should mention Socialism in
the text, but he wouldn't listen to reason.

Earlier, someone wrote a prototype for a new website for the
GIMP, and kept saying it didn't matter that it used horrible URLs like 
index.php?page=tutorials&subpage=scripting instead of better URLs that make
a wise use of PATH_INFO.

Often people jump to conclusions, personally attack me and others, make wild
accusations, blame the world at large is responsible for their problems, and
other irrational things.

3. Cruelty - I actually encountered many cases of abuse which cruelty seemed 
like the best explanation for, and it saddens me that people can be so cruel,
possibly out of jealousy and envy.


What I Like:
------------

1. Neo-Tech and Objectivism:

http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/philosophy/guide-to-neo-tech/

2. GNU/Linux and FOSS in general. 

Mandriva Linux (Cooker) is at the moment my distribution of choice, which 
often raises some eyebrows, but I find it is the most suitable for me. I can 
still happily tolerate use other Linux distributions, and to a much lesser
extent BSD clones.

3. The Internet. Especially:
    1. Google and other high-quaulity search engines such as Yahoo.
    2. The Wikipedia.
    3. The News Sites and Blogs I like to read (see 
    http://www.shlomifish.org/me/rss-feeds.opml )
    4. High-quality sites created by individuals

4. GVim.

5. Perl and programming in general.

6. KDE.

7. Biking.

8. Writing and reading essays, blog entries, blog comments, and funny stories,
bits and aphorisms.

8. The usual things like my friends and family, good food, my country, etc.

=====================

Well, that's it for now. Now I'd like to compile the new Linus -rc kernel,
reboot and part from my 9 days uptime. (and while I'm waiting, clean up the
cruft at my home directory).

I hope I can prove to be a useful member of your esteemed forum.

Best Regards,

    Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
    -- An Israeli Linuxer

From jon at jrock.us  Wed May 30 13:02:45 2007
From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan T. Rockway)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 15:02:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Introducing Myself
In-Reply-To: <200705302130.31241.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
References: <200705302130.31241.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
Message-ID: <20070530200245.GA30217@jrock.us>

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 09:30:30PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> I'm asking because I already got burned twice in London.pm where I discovered
> that their everything-is-on-topic policy is actually 
> "everything-is-on-topic-except-some-things-that-aren't". They used to discuss
> Buffy a lot, but frowned upon me London.pm-ing a Star Trek episode I started
> writing (even thought it had some Buffyism). Then I posted an email with some
> Perl jokes I generated and collected, and was banned from the mailing list.
> Maybe it was annoying, but it was amusing, and was certainly on-topic. So I'd
> like to make it clear.

Here's the thing.  Most of the off-topic stuff on london.pm is from
members of london.pm -- people that go to meetings together, people
that drink together, etc.  They know each other in real life, and
hence know what's on topic or off topic.  When the guy down the hall
from you posts something stupid, you go over to his office and make
fun of him in person.  When some random Internet troll does something
stupid, you ban him from the mailing list.  Keep that in mind.

In general, chicago-talk tends to be lowish traffic.  It's not a
requirement, but it happens to be that way right now.  I would
recommend sticking to answering people's questions instead of starting
threads.  Once you get an idea of what's acceptable by actually
observing, feel free to post.  (Also, when you answer people's
questions, try to give them a real answer.  The answer to "how do I
run .t files" is not Test::Run, it's "prove".  Sorry.)

But I have to admit, it's kind of weird that you're here.  If you want
to adopt a PM that doesn't have anyone "famous", you are welcome to do
so, but keep in mind that chicago.pm has Andy, Pete, Josh, brian d
foy, etc.  Your time might be better spent elsewhere.  That said, it's
not really up to me to decide how to spend your time.


> Some of the more critical articles I wrote about what I perceived as
> unfortunate trends in the Perl world, and my general tendency
> towards tactlessness got me a somewhat bad reputation. This prompted
> me to keep introducing myself as the Perl Black Sheep to people who
> don't know me.

I think you are misreading people's impressions.  "Shut up and write
some code" comes to mind.  Nobody in the OSS community apprecites
"essayists" that whine about bugs.  Fix them!

> Plus, I'm not optimising for being loved. 

Are you really sure that's not what you want?  Being hated gets old
fast.

Regards,
Jonathan Rockway

From andy at petdance.com  Wed May 30 13:13:59 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 15:13:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Introducing Myself
In-Reply-To: <20070530200245.GA30217@jrock.us>
References: <200705302130.31241.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
	<20070530200245.GA30217@jrock.us>
Message-ID: <49E26595-D435-4087-8819-FB13A7726BC8@petdance.com>


On May 30, 2007, at 3:02 PM, Jonathan T. Rockway wrote:

> But I have to admit, it's kind of weird that you're here.  If you want
> to adopt a PM that doesn't have anyone "famous", you are welcome to do
> so, but keep in mind that chicago.pm has Andy, Pete, Josh, brian d
> foy, etc.  Your time might be better spent elsewhere.  That said, it's
> not really up to me to decide how to spend your time.

All are welcome on Chicago.pm.  I'm on a number of different non- 
Chicago mailing lists, and I've been suggesting for a while that  
people visit other less-trafficked sites:

http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.qa/2006/07/msg6519.html:
Adopt a Perl Mongers group.  Go to pm.org, and find a Perl Mongers
group that could use a kick in the ass and/or expert technical help.
Then, sign up for their email list.  Answer questions nicely, and
helpfully.  Don't pick London or Chicago or NY or Portland.  Maybe
pick Cleveland or Kuala Lumpur.

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Wed May 30 23:19:51 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:19:51 +0300
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Introducing Myself
In-Reply-To: <20070530200245.GA30217@jrock.us>
References: <200705302130.31241.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
	<20070530200245.GA30217@jrock.us>
Message-ID: <200705310919.52228.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

Hi Jonathan!

Thanks for your email. See below for my response.

On Wednesday 30 May 2007, Jonathan T. Rockway wrote:
> On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 09:30:30PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > I'm asking because I already got burned twice in London.pm where I
> > discovered that their everything-is-on-topic policy is actually
> > "everything-is-on-topic-except-some-things-that-aren't". They used to
> > discuss Buffy a lot, but frowned upon me London.pm-ing a Star Trek
> > episode I started writing (even thought it had some Buffyism). Then I
> > posted an email with some Perl jokes I generated and collected, and was
> > banned from the mailing list. Maybe it was annoying, but it was amusing,
> > and was certainly on-topic. So I'd like to make it clear.
>
> Here's the thing.  Most of the off-topic stuff on london.pm is from
> members of london.pm -- people that go to meetings together, people
> that drink together, etc.  They know each other in real life, and
> hence know what's on topic or off topic.  When the guy down the hall
> from you posts something stupid, you go over to his office and make
> fun of him in person.  When some random Internet troll does something
> stupid, you ban him from the mailing list.  Keep that in mind.
>

I see. I disagree that banning some random Internet "troll" is the best 
policy. Even though I often wrote something bad in public in other mailing 
lists, what happened was that I was gently instructed that I did something 
wrong and how to best mend my ways. Sometimes a few people filtered out my 
messages into a separate folder (or completely dropped them, without 
informing me - which I considered bad form). As a result, I've gained a large 
amount of intuition of what's good and what's bad.

Everybody makes mistakes, but you'll lose or frustrate many people, if you 
just immediately pull the trigger on them. Not only will you gain a bad 
reputation, but you'll lose many potential contributors and make the 
remaining people much more elitists.

> In general, chicago-talk tends to be lowish traffic.  It's not a
> requirement, but it happens to be that way right now.  I would
> recommend sticking to answering people's questions instead of starting
> threads.  

OK, I will. :-) I'll start my new threads in Israel.pm or whatever.

> Once you get an idea of what's acceptable by actually 
> observing, feel free to post.  (Also, when you answer people's
> questions, try to give them a real answer.  The answer to "how do I
> run .t files" is not Test::Run, it's "prove".  Sorry.)

Sure. Of course, if someone wants to have nice colours, I can point him to 
Test::Run and TAP::Parser/TAP::Harness. Or if someone wants to be able to 
extend and customise Test::Harness, then these are also valid choices due to 
the fact that T::H is very inextensible, procedural and unmodular. 

>
> But I have to admit, it's kind of weird that you're here.  If you want
> to adopt a PM that doesn't have anyone "famous", you are welcome to do
> so, but keep in mind that chicago.pm has Andy, Pete, Josh, brian d
> foy, etc.  Your time might be better spent elsewhere.  That said, it's
> not really up to me to decide how to spend your time.

Actually, I'm here for the action. :-) I was told Chicago.pm is very active, 
and since I'd like to receive interesting email (about Perl or Linux or 
whatever), I decided to join. I'm also lurking on other less active Perl 
Mongers groups, and on my local PM group - Israel.pm. 

>
> > Some of the more critical articles I wrote about what I perceived as
> > unfortunate trends in the Perl world, and my general tendency
> > towards tactlessness got me a somewhat bad reputation. This prompted
> > me to keep introducing myself as the Perl Black Sheep to people who
> > don't know me.
>
> I think you are misreading people's impressions.  "Shut up and write
> some code" comes to mind.  

Well, as I noted I have already written a lot of code. I admit that the first 
serious essay I wrote about Perl ( 
http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/perl-newcomers/ ) was written when I had 
relatively little to show for in past contributions, and was probably too 
blunt and emotional for my own good. Since then, however, I have been writing 
a lot of code.

As I note here:

http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/software-management/end-of-it-slavery/

There's nothing unproductive about writing essays. Sometimes I found many 
important insights from essays other people wrote, that have made me more 
productive. And I hope that would be the case for my essays as well.

> Nobody in the OSS community apprecites 
> "essayists" that whine about bugs.  Fix them!
>

I have been reporting, often isolating or even fixing, and definitely not 
whining about bugs for a long time, in perl5, CPAN modules, and many 
not-particularly-Perl-related projects. My essays, OTOH, criticise or instead 
encourage some negative or positive trends. They aim to be enlightening, give 
a lot of food for thought, and often cause you to reach useful insights.

None of my essays whined about trivial technical bugs. 

As for "Nobody in the OSS community appreciates 'essayists' that whine about 
bugs" - are you sure? The word "essayist" is in quotes so I don't know what 
you mean, by that, but here is some essayists, who are appreciated:

1. http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/ (highly recommended)

2. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/ (very enlightening)

3. http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/philosophy.html (mostly by Richard M. 
Stallman).

4. http://www.dwheeler.com/ (Sometimes a bit misled, IMHO, but still very well 
researched).

5. http://www.paulgraham.com/ (excellent stuff)

All of them are highly respected, and they are not particularly well-known for 
their code. Some people say: "Who are they, and what did they do for us, that 
we should listen to them?". Regardless of how accurate the fact that they did 
not contribute code, their essays by themselves are a notable contribution.

I agree that writing code is a necessary pre-requisite for writing essays 
about software. But no-one remembers ESR for fetchmail or whatever. They 
remember him for "the Cathedral and the Bazaar" series.

Like them, I consider myself a philosopher and an essayists. I cannot testify 
that my essays are as good as theirs, but other people seem to have enjoyed 
them and agreed or disagreed about what I said there.

> > Plus, I'm not optimising for being loved.
>
> Are you really sure that's not what you want?  Being hated gets old
> fast.

There are a few people who I love and care for being loved by. But in "The 
Prince" Machiavelli (sp?) specifically say (or so I heard, as I have yet to 
read the original) that a ruler should optimise for being respected by his 
citizens not loved by them. Ayn Rand, for example, was heavily criticised and 
attacked, in her time, and gained many enemies. But it was because she spoke 
her mind and told what I believe to be an accurate representation of reality. 
A "truth" that was so right that it hurted many people.

Like I often said, if I had to choose between being loved for saying what 
people want to hear, to being hated for being honest, then I would take the 
second alternative. I'm not saying everything I said while being sincere, and 
was criticised for, is something I still believe in. (I often change my mind, 
and even believe that philosophy is dynamic and will and must change in 
time.) However, I still think it is a better idea to express one's 
well-thought, sincere and honest opinion, then it is to optimise for 
the "love" of the masses.

===================

I apologise for this email being very long.

Best Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
    -- An Israeli Linuxer

From shlomif at iglu.org.il  Thu May 31 04:30:29 2007
From: shlomif at iglu.org.il (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 14:30:29 +0300
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Introducing Myself
In-Reply-To: <49E26595-D435-4087-8819-FB13A7726BC8@petdance.com>
References: <200705302130.31241.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
	<20070530200245.GA30217@jrock.us>
	<49E26595-D435-4087-8819-FB13A7726BC8@petdance.com>
Message-ID: <200705311430.29893.shlomif@iglu.org.il>

On Wednesday 30 May 2007, Andy Lester wrote:
> On May 30, 2007, at 3:02 PM, Jonathan T. Rockway wrote:
> > But I have to admit, it's kind of weird that you're here.  If you want
> > to adopt a PM that doesn't have anyone "famous", you are welcome to do
> > so, but keep in mind that chicago.pm has Andy, Pete, Josh, brian d
> > foy, etc.  Your time might be better spent elsewhere.  That said, it's
> > not really up to me to decide how to spend your time.
>
> All are welcome on Chicago.pm.  I'm on a number of different non-
> Chicago mailing lists, and I've been suggesting for a while that
> people visit other less-trafficked sites:
>
> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.qa/2006/07/msg6519.html:
> Adopt a Perl Mongers group.  Go to pm.org, and find a Perl Mongers
> group that could use a kick in the ass and/or expert technical help.
> Then, sign up for their email list.  Answer questions nicely, and
> helpfully.  Don't pick London or Chicago or NY or Portland.  Maybe
> pick Cleveland or Kuala Lumpur.

That put aside, I should note that all are welcome on Israel.pm too (whose 
discussions are strictly English-only), and you are welcome to join. Except 
for Perl we sometimes have "off-topic" discussions about text editors, IDEs 
and programmer productivity tools[1], computer education, Israeli and 
international employment trends, language and linguistics, latest JoS 
article, etc. We still don't accept every discussion like London.pm does.

{{{{{{{
[1] - Including "Auto-Indentation - Good or Evil?" and spaces vs. tabs ;-)
}}}}}}}

Hackers-IL - http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/ (and 
http://www.hackers.org.il/ ) - is a mailing list, also primarily in English, 
dedicated to "philosophical" discussions of computing. We discuss programming 
languages (including relatively obscure ones), concepts, math, science, etc. 
there.

I should note that I'm also present on some relatively inactive Perl Mongers 
groups or moderately inactive ones. My full list so far is:

# Birmingham.

# Boston.

# Chicago.

# London (as mentiond, I got banned on shlomif at iglu.org.il, but still 
subscribed from shlomif at gmail.com, where I heavily detest the UI and 
semantics of the MUA).

# Melbourne

# NYC

# Portland

# Purdue

# Israel (my original mongers group)

# Kansas City

I normally only start threads in Israel.pm, but maybe I should post to other 
Mongers' groups as well. Haven't really thought about it.

I once tried to do the same for a Linux user group. I started with GLLug - the 
Greater London Linux User Group, but was overwhelmed by the fact it had a 
relatively high volume (not as bad as LKML or Bugtraq, but still), and that 
the discussions there were mostly technical and not philosophical and so of 
little interest to me. I ended up unsubscribing. I suppose SVLug would be 
even worse, but I would like to try joining a Linux chat list (in English) 
again.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish      shlomif at iglu.org.il
Homepage:        http://www.shlomifish.org/

If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
    -- An Israeli Linuxer

From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 31 07:02:15 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:02:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] Introducing Myself
In-Reply-To: <200705310919.52228.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
References: <200705302130.31241.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
	<20070530200245.GA30217@jrock.us>
	<200705310919.52228.shlomif@iglu.org.il>
Message-ID: <6A07D0B9-79E4-4406-825B-E41779B4EE49@petdance.com>


On May 31, 2007, at 1:19 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> Thanks for your email. See below for my response.

Just about the last thing Chicago.pm needs to be is a big meta- 
discussion about Shlomi and/or Chicaqo.pm.  Let's just say "welcome"  
and carry on.

Thanks,
xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance





From jon at jrock.us  Thu May 31 07:34:57 2007
From: jon at jrock.us (Jonathan Rockway)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:34:57 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] [OT] Wiis
Message-ID: <200705310934.58757.jon@jrock.us>

Slightly off topic... but I've been looking around various stores in the area 
for a Wii, and nobody has them.  I've tried Target, Best Buy, and Circuit 
City, but they are all out "until at least mid-July".  I would rather not 
wait that long ;) so if anyone knows of a secret stash (ideally downtown), I 
would love to know about it.  Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Jonathan Rockway

-- 
package JAPH;use Catalyst qw/-Debug/;($;=JAPH)->config(name => do {
$,.=reverse qw[Jonathan tsu rehton lre rekca Rockway][$_].[split //,
";$;"]->[$_].q; ;for 1..4;$,=~s;^.;;;$,});$;->setup;
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From andy at petdance.com  Thu May 31 10:03:36 2007
From: andy at petdance.com (Andy Lester)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:03:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago-talk] More YAPC photos
Message-ID: <D312D7F8-7338-4DF8-83FB-6E78B2A7B5EE@petdance.com>

Barbie from England just posted a bunch of photos from YAPC:NA 2006.

http://barbie.missbarbell.co.uk/cgi-bin/pages.cgi?act=album- 
main&year=2006&month=6

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester => andy at petdance.com => www.petdance.com => AIM:petdance